The bible has now been proven worthless
Maybe useless in terms of proving anything religion-wise, but still helpful for those of us who don't use it as a weapon and simply refer to parts of it for inspiration to become better people.
Jesus was a Lib.
You hate Libs.Horrible, but mending.
You?
He was indeed.
And habee's like me. She doesn't hate anyone/anything.Well - she has a low opinion of them far as I can tell from her political posts.
I think she gets discouraged with the crazy ones...lol And, she is southern, you know. Even the liberal southerner is more conservative than your average liberal.
BUT, she's a great lady and a lot of fun.
Thanks, habee. You and I agree a lot...lol That must mean you're a wise and compassionate woman; kind and refined. Need I go on? lol
Thanks, johnny. Good to see you, btw.
Nice to see some purely unbiased reporting.
Greetings Mark. I see you have not abandoned your crusade.
“- it appears that the lie of the Hebrews enslaved by Egypt has now been proven wrong.”
Wrong again, Mark. It is your statement that is a lie. Your three sources do not prove a thing. They contain no new evidence of any kind. In fact, the first sign of a bogus conclusion is when it is framed as a question! The Haaretz article begins with a question it never answers: “Were Jews ever really slaves in Egypt, or is Passover a myth?” The Our Weekly piece has the title Were the Israelites really enslaved? All three sources present unanswered question that have been around for a long time. Two of your links are two years old! Sham [sic] on you!
I am surprised that you would offer us a blog post as a proof. Tsk! Tsk! Imagine your sarcastic reaction if a Christian offered a blog like this one as proof God existed. But you seem comfortable offering it to prove bible accounts are not accurate.
Finally, one of your sources does contain a rebuttal that may or may not withstand scrutiny. You should check it out. It just might poke holes in all three of your sources.
“In the Brooklyn Museum there is a papyrus scroll (numbered 35:1446) dated to the reign of Sobekhotep III (the pharaoh one generation prior to Moses). This document decrees the transfer of 95 slaves by name; half of which are Semitic. It lists the names both in the original Semitic language as well as the Egyptian names assigned to each. Seeing as more than half of the list are Israelite one can infer that a large group of Semites resided in the Egyptian Delta of that time.
In the past, archeologist have been searching in the strata of the Nineteenth Dynasty. Various recent recalculations have revealed that the timeline equates more with the Twelfth and Thirteenth Dynasty of Egypt. More and more artifacts have begun to emerge that date the Israelites in Egypt since this correction.
The Pharaoh of the Exodus was Dudimose. You can find writings by Manetho (the Egyptian historian who wrote an account on the collapse of Egypt during the reign of Dudimose). Some of his accounts are directly relevant to biblical accounts.” {1}
Thanks for posting, Mark. I often find your comments entertaining.
Why would I abandon my crusade? I would hardly compere it to a religious Crusade though - almost the opposite. Bringing knowledge instead of murdering those who seek it.
Weird - there is no archeological evidence at all, and there was some solid points in there about why the Exodus never happened. This is the evidence presented - that despite massive searches - there has been no evidence uncovered. After many years of searching - nothing has been found and our understanding of the way cultures intermix definitely suggests that the bible is completely false. Not just all the majikal stuff, but the very basis of the entire story. We already know the Jesus myth is false and not borne out by historical evidence. Now we are fairly certain the rest is also in dispute. Before now - it did not matter, because we had not the understanding to do a proper search. Now we can - and have.
Weird also that you did not provide any evidence or links, because a few Semitic slaves mixed in with a general list of slaves is nothing. You would surely expect that in any list of people anywhere there are Jews - yes? All we can surmise from that is that there were 40 Semite slaves there at that time. If the entire nation had been enslaved - I would have expected all 95 to be Hebrew - wouldn't you?
You can "recalculate," all you want - I understand this is what happens to the bible as we slowly disprove all of it - "Oh wait - a day is not a day."
Thanks for posting - I do find religious commenters to be very, very funny - especially when faced with evidence that their beliefs are based on nothing.
Having said that - I would be perturbed if I believed in this stuff - yet one Papyrus works as proof for you. I mean - doesn't it bother you that there is almost no historical evidence backing up your beliefs? One piece of papyrus is all it takes?G’day Mark. Your comments are appreciated.
Once again, however, you assume more than you actually know. Not one word in your statement above applies to me.
You choose to ignore the fact that this thread opens with a false statement. The three sources offered in support do not prove anything. They merely raise questions, very old questions. Would the title of fact filled articles containing solid proofs be a question or a declarative sentence? The unanswered questions in your three sources are far from being “proofs.” Scholars and scientists often debate whether research results are evidence of absence, or whether they are just the absence of evidence (e.g. the research could have missed what it was looking for). In addition, you seem comfortable using a blog post as one of your “proofs” and you openly dismiss the rebuttal from within your own source without testing its validity. I think we all get the picture.
As for participating in useless attacks on the windmills of your mind, I decline.
Yes - they raise questions. The fact that there is no historical evidence. And - using modern archeological techniques - we have not been able to find any.
Solid proofs have been given. There is solid proof that there is no evidence. I have no proof - just a lack of. Sorry you don't understand what that means.
Of course - if you have some that no one else is aware of - I am open to it. What validity can there be? This is a negative situation. Still - why would you care - you are secure without evidence. Faith.
I don't believe that is the case - no. Archeologists - as far as I am aware - have been unable to find anything at all that bears out the biblical account.
And - interesting that all the religious people have ignored this - the first article I linked to was a request from the writer to drop the unnecessary hatred of Egypt by Israelis which is rooted in the belief that the Hebrews were enslaved.
"So, as we come to Passover 2012 when, thanks to the “Arab Spring,” our relations with Egypt are at a nearly 40 year low, let us enjoy our Seder and read the story by all means, but also remind those at the table who may forget that it is just a metaphor, and that there is no ancient animosity between Israelites and Egyptians. Because, if we want to re-establish that elusive peace with Egypt that so many worked so hard to build, we're all going to have to let go of our prejudices. "
It is - in effect - a call for peace.I agree - it appears like most religionists - they prefer to hang on to the hatred, division and animosity. You are correct though - this "faith" that something that did not happen happened is very important to you guys - isn't it.
No Exodus, no Passover. Yup - you got that right.
See my first post.
Do we have a moron, or an oxymoron here?
I normally just enjoy their company!
Living where I do, I meet stacks of 'cool' folk who are 'Christlike' in their existences, and why not, after all Christ was carrying an anointing that comes from God, if someone is able to live as God intended, they will get anointed.
But MY relationship is with Christ, and I no longer let myself be concerned if other folk chose a different way to go (their god, my God, it's our choice who we believe in).
Ultimately, we stand before God and are judged on our lives, and if John 3:16-19, John 6:44, and John 14:6 turn out to be THE criterion's, then some will be disappointed, no doubt that would include many who were professing Christians.
Strange this need to keep trying to get other people to believe you have this relationship in that case. It appears you are not being truthful when you say all else can be out aside for later consideration. Almost liek you need this validation. Odd.
Since I Came to Reason, I stopped imagining that the personal relationships I had with people in my imagination were actually real.
You should try it some time.
I was more interested in how this information affected the believers among us.
"Makes them more aggressive," is the best I can come up with.You don't listen to any "proof"!
You are biased to the eyeballs!!!
If you really sought truth, you would be open to it, even if it was contrary to your personal beliefs.
But, alas, you have shown yourself to be a man with a mind that is more closed than the proverbial steel trap. But, as I have often said, I still like you!Why would I bother? You can show me the archeological proof of the Exodus right here.
Or not.........
Odd you don't realize that it is this "holier than thou," attitude that causes all the conflicts.
Like Jesus told you to do.
Chris - your ignorance of History and willingness to repeat any nonsense as fact of it in some way attacks reality and defends your beliefs never ceases to amaze me. The Trojan war is still a myth and the excavation of Troy has not offered any proof that it was not.
Not sure what that has to do with Majikal Super Beings parting the Red Sea by Majik.
Yes - you are a typical Christian. I almost know what you are going to parrot before you parrot it. Any rational person dismisses majikal events with no physical evidence - but not a typical Christian. Hard for you to be more typical actually. You even think you are special.
Do you now believe Helen's mother was raped by Zeus in the guise of a Swan because there is some evidence of a city that may have been Troy? Somehow I suspect your faith in majik stops at this line - yes? Works for the Christian myth, but not for the Greek one? How is that exactly? Parting of the Red Sea? Sure - here is a Chariot wheel to prove it. Zeus rapes Leda while in the guise of a Swan? Sounds a bit far fetched....
Sure don't let the fact get in your way.
- Emile Rposted 12 years ago
0 + 1
Hell yeah.... it must have been so hard for them to figure out the meaning of life, without Monty Python and Brian being on that surfing safari!
- bulls eye...
Hey there aka - what say you now that your bible has been proven meaningless? No Moses - none of that stuff.
"Lack of transitional evidence," I think they call it. I know you are a big fan of that.
But he does not claim to have found the landscape of Noah. " We really cannot say in any way, shape or form that this is the biblical flood. All we can say is that there has been a major flood, that people were living here when it happened. We prefer to stick with the facts -and who knows where those facts will lead us."
That was 12 years ago - still no news.
That one is even funnier than this 12 year old drivel. I wonder if these guys bother reading anything.
- Can't wait to see how they really handle the Mrs Jesus evolutionary stories then!!
Here are some interesting conclusions from that link...
"A look at all the archaeological evidence shows that the best fit of the data is to identify the Exodus with the expulsion of the Hyksos from Egypt around 1570-50 BC
Therefore the best explanation for all of the archaeological evidence seems to be that Israel is a confederation of Hapiru tribes in the hill country of Canaan, that formed the nation of Israel in the Iron Age.
This paper has shown that most of the ancient writers equated the Exodus with the expulsion of the Hyksos from Egypt around 1570-50 BC Most ancient writers put the Jews in Egypt for 215 years or less."Interesting indeed, it establishes that the articles refuting it were just opinion, and give credence to the Jews actually originating from where God said they did:
Genesis 11:31
And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son's son, and Sarai his daughter in law, his son Abram's wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there.
Thanks
One might ask WHY the secular world has not visited the site and examined the evidence, if it is so easily disputed by the 'secular observer' (who of course would be unbiased....
They have?
Happen to have any sources I can check that against, they must have announced it I guess?
...and knowing how much you like to amuse yourself with satire, I would need some sources before I took whatever you said as creditable.@agua 100 yrs of research and no result...how much they can announce...their actions announced it since 100 yrs...coming to announce it......what is best way to counter a book?...write another book...
Israel Finkelstein, chairman of the Archaeology Department at Tel Aviv University, with archaeology historian Neil Asher Silberman, has just published a book called "The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Text."
"The Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land [of Canaan] in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the twelve tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is the fact that the united kingdom of David and Solomon, described in the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom."
m glad quran is proven wrong...At least they both agree there was no evidence of enslavement and Exodus.
So - as I said - worthless.
l mockers and unbelievers shall have their part in the lake of fire....
i thought only fanatic islamist threatened...i change my mind...Wonderful stuff - thank you very much.
"Please Jesus, let me out!"
"It is too late," said Jesus. "Judgment is set."
Great pathos."I know, Lord, I know!" the man cried. "But I still want to repent now.... and am more than happy to bathe your toes in my tears of gratitude!" (Umm.. interesting act!)
I guess it is a step up from YouTube Creation videos.
Lost me. Atheism makes perfect sense. It is simply a lack of a belief in a god. Prove my reasoning? OK - no evidence of any such thing. None.
Why would any one rebuild this? How many times has that been tried? Why do you think there is 40,000 different denominations?
You think 40,001 is the majik bullet?
There is something very, very wrong at the heart of this philosophy.
- SirDentposted 12 years ago0
Of course.
The association of the Ipuwer Papyrus with the Exodus as describing the same event is generally rejected by Egyptologists. Roland Enmarch, author of a new translation of the papyrus, notes: "The broadest modern reception of Ipuwer amongst non-Egyptological readers has probably been as a result of the use of the poem as evidence supporting the Biblical account of the Exodus."[26] While Enmarch himself rejects synchronizing the texts of the Ipuwer Papyrus and The Book of Exodus on grounds of historicity, in The reception of a Middle Egyptian poem: The Dialogue of Ipuwer.. he acknowledges that there are some textual parallels "particularly the striking statement that ‘the river is blood and one drinks from it’ (Ipuwer 2.10), and the frequent references to servants abandoning their subordinate status (e.g. Ipuwer 3.14–4.1; 6.7–8; 10.2–3). On a literal reading, these are similar to aspects of the Exodus account."
Commenting on such attempts to draw parallels, he writes that "all these approaches read Ipuwer hyper-literally and selectively" and points out that there are also conflicts between Ipuwer and the biblical account. He suggests that "it is more likely that Ipuwer is not a piece of historical reportage and that historicising interpretations of it fail to account for the ahistorical, schematic literary nature of some of the poem’s laments," but other Egyptologists disagree. Examining what Enmarch calls "the most extensively posited parallel", the river becoming blood, he notes that it should not be taken "absolutely literally" as a description of an event but that both Ipuwer and Exodus might be metaphorically describing what happens at times of catastrophic Nile floods when the river is carrying large quantities of red earth, mentioning that Kitchen has also discussed this phenomenon.
Too bad.
This Pharaoh would be drownded lol. But - pretty sure he would have recorded the original enslavement of an entire HUGE people.
Certainly good for a laugh.
"Modern Biblical Chronology," huh? I see you don't (really) want ANY information that is opposed to your bias.
Typical hypocrisy. Dear me. I am always open dj - show me something other than lies and made up nonsense - and I will listen. I wouldn't call, "making up a new time line," information though. I take it from your comment that you did not even bother reading that stuff - did you? Just saw something that purported to support your irrational faith and assumed it must be some good stuff?
Calling me names is not helping to convince me that your religion has any value either.
Funny stuff coming from some one who rejects all scientific knowledge.So, this sums up your "credible" sources, taken from the second on your list of links.
"And please note that The Bible is NOT a credible source. As far as I am concerned it is purely a work of fiction that maybe 5% of the time is based loosely around actual historical events."
(Italics mine).
As far as I'm concerned, this is way less credible that the timeline one.
But, hey, don't sweat it. I'm still happy with my delusions. It is false. Made up by religious people trying to defend an irrational belief. More name calling huh? Like Jesus told you to do?
Hey there. Can you please list 50 or so proofs of the Bible's Historical accuracy - I would like that and it will be entertaining to say the least. Can we start with the proof of Jesus' crucifixion, and maybe do some of the other majikal events, like the Tower of Babel and Noah's Ark. Can we avoid the religious liars sites that you linked to before though - we all know there are people who will make stuff up to support their beliefs. I feel certain the Holy Spirit will direct you to some secular, reputable sites. Right?
Although, it is widely accepted - even amongst Israeli and Religious groups that there is no evidence for the Exodus, so I think the Holy Spirit might be in trouble here........
Speak what the bible says all you wish - I am capable of reading and I do not think we should murder people for working on the Sabbath - but - that is just me.
No - that is not what I said aka. Although you are - unwittingly - proving that to be the case. I said those sites are not being truthful and the information contained on them has been rejected by reputable archaeologists - including religious and Israeli ones.
I am truthful aka - I know you like to call me a liar and hypocrite and close minded, but - that does not make it so. lol Repeating the same thing over and over and over - as those sites do - will not make it true either.
So - on top of biology, geology, plate tectonics, anthropology, paleontology, carbon and radio dating, most physics and chemistry - you now add archaeology to your list of atheist conspiracies? You will have nothing left soon.
Do you get some special award for 20,000+ posts? - I would think you should get something for such diligence!
No - I don't think so. I should do though. You could start a petition.
Yup - worthless. Can you make a sensible response regarding the fact that there is no evidence to back up the basis for the biblical claim of Hebrew enslavement and Exodus instead please?
Calling me a fool does not really help.
So - an important part of the history has been proven false. At least you admit that.
The redemptive sacrifice makes no sense at all and has also been proven worthless. The fact than man evolved disproves that one.I should clarify, just because the pottery hasn't been found isn't proof positive that it never happened. But I also believe in the literal creation of humans. Evolutionary theory, both Darwinian and post-Darwinian, has problems. I'm certainly open to education about it, I want to know what I'm talking about better than I do, but every time I bring that up I'm basically called an idiot. If that is supposed to show me how wrong I am, it only has gone to prove everything I've written about human nature.
And the redemptive sacrifice is not worthless if you accept the gift.
Maybe I should've been a preacher...Evolution is well proven. It appears your biology is as accurate as your history. Sorry - I don't believe that you are coming here looking for proof of evolution. Odd - you accept the biblical nonsense without a shred of evidence and even argue that the lack of evidence is not proof positive that it never happened.
The redemptive sacrifice is ridiculous.
Yes we can. Thoroughly counted out, disproven and relegated to myth status - sorry. The exodus decoded has been thoroughly debunked - By a Christian organization no less.
If you were not so busy posting links to religious garbage - you would know that because you would have followed this thread instead.
"Oh wait - some one sez it is real therefore my beliefs are not nonsense - let's go with that."From the first link, first story...
"Angelica was shown the Kingdoms of Heaven and Hell, and the Return of Christ. She witnessed Jesus weeping over lost souls...
We were fasting for 15 days, and crying out to God. My daughter Angelica also joined us. During those fifteen days of fasting, I was able to see beyond the natural, which I've never done before. We were praying and fasting at the retreat, and even continued praying and crying out at home, waiting for God to speak to us." Sorry, but delirium brought on by lack of food was the result of their hysteria and delusions.
And of course, the mother of this child should be arrested for child abuse.
Ah - personal attacks from behind a fake user - you must be a real christian.
Sorry you don't want the truth. It must be very frustrating to think you found some proof of the majik juju only to discover it is another Liar For Jesus talking out his behind. Still - now you know the Exodus is a lie - how do you feel? Still believe OK? Bet you do huh? No wonder you are so angry.
Go attack a Mormon or something. They just make stuff up for their religion. Not like you guys with your facts, and proof and evidence 'n' stuff.
Why - just yesterday - we had some one proving heaven was real because a doctor selling a book about it said so. It is true - he saw it while brain damaged and had scientific proof, plus he was qualified. Not like the evolution scientists who lie and make stuff up like the Mormons..Contradict much?
- Apemaniaposted 12 years ago0
Proof? I don't need proof. In this case - a lack of is proof enough.
Unless you are saying you can go back in time and test creation?
In which case - I am all over it.Ah - Truth is a cop out now is it? EVIDENCE?
What evidence is that?
No - the burden of proof belongs to you. In the absence of - it is a lie.
See how that works?
This is why your religion causes so many conflicts. You propose nonsense and demand it be dis-proven without having first proven it. Used to work that way - not any more. The burden of proof is your. Sorry. That must be very frustrating for you.
Why don't you try having faith instead? I understand that is how this is supposed to work.......
Perhaps, he was one of Hitlers right hand men? Maybe Mark is actually Goebbels in disguise?
Talking of who Mark may be in disguise....
Funny - they claim to be following the rules of a book which expressly tells them that bearing false witness is a sin punishable by eternal damnation. And then feel free to bear false witness.
Almost as though they don't actually believe what they preach.I just leave it up to God to decide who's bearing false witness!
In that case you are in all sorts of trouble. Interesting that you feel no responsibility to those you may damage or insult by bearing false witness against them.
Save me a seat by the fire.
I see - so it has worth as a work of fiction. OK - I can go with that. Much like any other fairy tale. Can't argue with that. I prefer "Star Wars," as a story but - to each his own. Not going to base my life in Star Wars though.
+1
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