Atheists, what the hell is your problem?
Whether religion/God is real or not, i‘m sick of these fanatical soul destroying atheists who try and shatter any hope or peace of mind out of believers. What is it? Pure envy that you have no faith? One atheist once confessed that the most depressing day of his life was when he realized there was no God. Hypothetically speaking if a kid wants to believe in santa claus because this brings joy to their life, is it your right to take that away?. My argument is not about if God exists or not.. As my faith is not so strong, however why cant you athiests leave those believers who are happy in their beliefs alone? Is it too much to bear for you to see them having the peace of mind that they will see their loved ones when they die (if true or not) or you can't bear that their life holds a purpose, while you live yours lost. Or is it that you take pride in converting them into your world of depression and no hope?
Zealots of either kind are equally irritating for the same basic reasons.
But I must say "what is your problem" is not really indicative of a "live and let live" philosophy.I agree. I took the OP as confrontational. Confrontational people might be what the hell Atheists problem is.
This is my rant as it's something that has been getting on my nerves. Same thing goes for religious fanatics
psycheskinner, you make an interesting, but shallow point.
If someone loves to murder little children, then we're not going to get all warm and fuzzy about their favorite pastime, are we?
When people are destructive, they do not show a "live and let live" attitude. So, child murderers and rowdy atheists are hereby being requested to chill -- put a sock in it -- try a non-abusive approach to life. What's wrong with expecting them to be "live and let live?" And I see nothing wrong in asking the rowdy or murderous, "what's your problem?"Notice how the believer must equate the non-believer to "child murderers" in order to defend their own intolerance.
Doesn't make a lot of sense to me, not when the obvious bone of contention is defining when human life begins, not the murder of children.
Indeed, the only murderers I see are those bastions of religion, believing human life starts with fertilization, that go on to say it is OK to murder that life in case of incest, rape, etc. as if the fetus is no longer human because it is the product of a rape. I don't believe I've ever seen a non-believer taking that stanceIt is the disrespectful speech that was equated with the murderous; clearly.
And, your religion has some of the most disrespectful speech ever uttered, clearly.
Hey "...Trouble..."
I got no religion. Lord knows... I'm just totally convinced that the spiritual realm is the place to go for life's answers. It is not at all difficult for me to believe. I don't really agree with holy-rollerism. But Jesus really didn't either. I prefer his truths. I enjoy his mannerisms. And I love the way he loves me. His message rings true for me. I don't recall him saying religion is the way. The church practices have been a bit unfulfilling personally. Not that I bash people who go to churches; I just don't.
Religion is not what you call my practice. I haven't considered a name for it. But since I am so familiar with Jesus, I guess I am somewhat Christian. But tgat denominational thing gets tricky for me. People make toi much of certain "words"Sorry, but you have a religion, it's called Christianity.
I am not calling it anything, Christianity is a religion by definition. You are simply denying definitions of words. You are the one who is calling it whatever you like.
Will want u to know that Christianity WAS not a religion until Rome hijacked it. So if someone who is going back to the basics describes him or her self as not having a religion please do understand why.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity
Christianity is a monotheistic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ as presented in the New Testament. Christianity is the world's largest religion, with approximately 2.2 billion adherents, known as Christians.So, though I firnly believe in Jesus; I cannot state that I practice Christianity. I didn't though. Seems like someone is trying to "box" me. I practice a relationship with God. What is that Religion called?
Btw for future reference, not all who follow teachings of Christ call themselves Christians.Its no religion. Its spiritual. The two are distinct. Anyway for those who choose to understand.
I believe the truth. You must choose to see it or choose not to. People don't understand...
Again it all became a religion after Rome made it one. If not Christians were more like a community of people who were merely living like Christ.
In light of the fact that I showed you what Christianity means and getirite showed you the definition of religion you insist that the language is wrong, we are wrong and the scholars are wrong. Perhaps you should take that up with wikipedia and those who right the dictionaries.
Since u mentioned Wikipedia I will want u to go ahead and post the definition of religion as presented there. To some extent it differs from the definition getitrite posted. All the same I didn't want to bring it up because I don't want to engage in a battle of definition. All am trying to say is that when someone who is trying to go back to the basics of Christian practice says he or she does not have a religion, you should understand that it's because Christianity started out as more of what we can call movement than religion. I am not saying ur definition of religion is wrong.
re·li·gion /riˈlijən/ noun: religion
1. the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
So do you not believe in a God, or is it that you do not worship him? It's disturbing how you can pretend to not be religious. Seems like outright dishonesty to me.This is one out of many definitions of religion by the way. Again my point is that the adherence to the teachings of Christ was never meant to be a religion. Those who started the movement were still comfortable with some Jewish teachings until Rome pitched it against every other believe and now people like u consider it a religion.
Then qualify the definition that you choose to use. Show us how having a relationship with a magic superhuman, who died, and magically came back to life, does not fit the criteria.
The relationship a church less Christian has is with God not Christ who church doctrine says died and came back to life. Jesus teachings is what I subscribe to not what the church, the beacon of christian religion says about him. Religion comes with creeds and doctrines and often times denies us the unadulterated liberal relationship we can have with God no matter who or how we understand him.
One doesn't have to got to church to have a religion.
The argument of "words" begins here... To me, religion is more ritualistic than I. I don't call it religion because it doesn't feel as such. If you like the label; tag away...
All we can do is go by what the words means. If these words don't work for you you can pick another that does.
But Christianity is a religion.Yes Sir!!! The "great big head" finally speaks. Lol
Haha very funny. Like calling an egg bald when it was never meant to be hairy.
Yeah... or like an atheist trying to understand the spirit of God.
Funnier.I would guess that your average atheist doesn't give a flying **** about the spirit of God.
You know, since they don't believe it exists... and most seem the better for it.None of the atheists here are proof of that. We go back and forth about God day after day; that seems proof to me that they give a couple of flying things about the subject. I mean... would you go to a Tooth Fairy discussion day after day??? I wouldn't.
Oh, but you do got to a Tooth Fairy discussion day after day. However, your Tooth Fairy teaches good people to do bad things, that's why it's a discussion.
There's five, maybe ten tops, atheists that are active on this forum...
You really need to get out more.No one will or can prove anything to Cgenaea that she does not want proven. I know it can be fun to argue with her, but it can also be a waste of time.
But then,don't let me spoil your fun, anybody.... The Lord won't mind!Bah, I had a couple minutes between Dr. Who shows while hubby was taking a bathroom break. Wasn't a real investment in time...
And who knows, maybe it fired a neuron in there somewhere.Oh Dear! That sounds ominous, Melissa. Sounds like you have taken up that new religion of Dr. Who. Just be careful you don't fall foul of the evil ones and be sure to keep a spare key to your Tardis, just in case you need to make a quick escape.
Ah sarcasm...
I don't really get too involved in these forums... a post here or there in a normal day. If I'm incapacitated in some way I might spar to pass the time.
On the days I do spend a lot of time here, I'm left with the feeling that I've lost a day of my life I'll never get back for no real reason.
So yes, I "graced" you for 10 seconds of my life... and now with another 30 seconds. I don't have much more to spend because I actually have a life worth more than arguing with strangers over things that don't matter.
I might grace you again at some point. Be assured though that it's pretty far down the list of priorities. Somewhere near dusting the underside of my dressers.
Alls I know is... they talk to me personally all day; bout God.
I see them mostly talking about you. You are not God... far from it. Way far from it. Like so far from it you can't even see it from where you're standing.
Seriously, I really do encourage you to meet some people. I'm worried that you seem to be wrapping yourself up a bit too much in the forums and online world. I believe it's warping your perceptions.
I'm not being sarcastic or snarky at all. You really do need to get out more.Thanks again. But no thanks. They talk about me because I talk about God and his word and his love and his realness to me. They want to shatter my hope "that springs eternal" because they have chosen another hope... God is NOT REAL.
There are two choices: for or against. Which choice have you made?For or against? What happened to the only honest "choice" anyone can make? That "I don't know"?
Well, "I don't know" has great propensity for having DECIDED to ignore; weigh away; "reason" out and/or deny the information provided. "I don't know" is a great argument. I think that is why God spews lukewarm. It is soooo safe. However a decision to give greater weight to the NO side.
Safe, yes. Also honest, even to the speaker - something that neither for or against can ever be in the matter of religion. You prefer the warm, fuzzy feeling of being loved along with a guarantee of eternal life and that's certainly your choice, but you also give up that honesty when you make that choice. It seems a little unfair to denigrate those that do not choose to lie to themselves or others around them in return for feeling good.
The lie is prefered. The bible tells us that
now what do you think about that???So, you prefer to live a life of lies because the Bible tells you that?
And you are the best "cherry-picker" of them all. No wonder...
And, what exactly do I cherry pick? Or, is that yet another childish response?
You haven't recognized how you cherry-pick even all of my comments to throw off the content of my responses??? Pay attention.
Ah, I see the problem now, you have no idea what cherry picking comprises, which would explain why you employ it so thoroughly in your posts.
The content of your responses are mostly gibberish and what appears to be fueled by confusion and a likely mental disorder, bipolar, perhaps?Yes, it does. You really should take some time to actually understand the definition of words.
Have you ever heard of a "dictionary"? It's a book, you know, like the thing that is surgically attached to your retinas called the Bible.Yes, seems like we all select the information that we pay attention to. For me, the retinally attached bible is most important to me; thanks for noticing and conveying. Most others like to waver from book to book in search of something else to hold onto.
Yes, it's called "knowledge and information", that which allows one to gain an education, thus not remaining ignorant to the world around them and being not being susceptible to believing myths and superstitions from one surgically attached book.
In other words, the Bible is your information.
Well, I homeschool my kids... because that's what the spirit told me to do. I do volunteer work, because that's what the spirit told me to do... And I work... because the spirit, I believe, would like me to eat and have a roof over my head. I can't say he told me to work, but it seems like the right thing to do. In my spare time, I spend time building my relationship with my husband...because that's what the spirit told me to do. I also take care of my parents... because that's what the spirit told me to do. And my mother in law... because that's what the spirit told me to do.
And in all of that, no one ever wants to shatter my hope "that springs eternal".Maybe because I'm slightly too busy to willingly wade among people that I think are trying to do that. Or perhaps because NO ONE IS TRYING TO DO THAT. In this thread there are several people I talk to on a daily basis that are not trying to shatter my faith... but you seem to think they are trying to shatter yours... That's neither here nor there though.
Seriously, isn't God telling you to spend more time with your children? Isn't God telling you to walk among the homeless and ill to help them? Is God really telling you to come here everyday and spend countless hours having arguments?
Because that doesn't sound like anything that Christ would do or say.
So what choice have I made? My whole life is about my faith. I LIVE my faith... You? Well it seems like you just talk yours.
Like I said, I think you might want to actually try living. I'm really not trying to be argumentative at all... You have all this energy that you are trying to put into proving your faith to people who don't care. Why don't you start tunneling that into loving the people who matter? That's not a rhetorical question either. I honestly want to know why the people on here are more important that your children, your family and those in need?I have not categorized the people here as unimportant. Jesus actually asked some people "who is my mother?" His family, he attested were those who do the will of his father. I find fulfillment in what I do here though i have much more fulfillment elsewhere, thanks
it seems funny that now my motherhood and civil service is spotlighted. Lol
God is most important to me. He leads me. Not fingerpointers. I realize that pleasing people is hard. I'm pretty easy to please. God does it everyday.So you're fine with the fact that ever single moment you spend here is a moment that you are taking away from your children and those in need? That's cool, I'm just saying there seems to be a lot of moments.
I'm not trying to point fingers and I'm certainly not looking for you to please. I'm just saying that it seems to be such a waste.
I'm not questioning your faith. I'm not trying to spotlight anything. This was just between me and you.
It seems sad for anyone with kids to spend so much time away from them with nothing to show for it. I can tell you from experience that you're going to miss that time someday. You're going to want every single second of it back. Every single second. Trust me. You might want to make sure that there aren't too many seconds to regret.
Well, what he have here is a reason to communicate.
Hilarious, you believers crack me up pretending to know and understand things that are just childish nonsensical rubbish.
Well, seems like you know a lot of other things I don't know... I'm sure of it.
You are free to educate yourself about the world around you, but I seriously doubt that will ever happen anytime soon.
Wow, you really don't get it. Do you actually think we are here trying to learn from you?
It doesn't matter what you feel about it, it is a religion by definition, and you've been heavily indoctrinated into it. Those are the facts.
What about tagging urself a churchless Christian? Am like u and thats how I describe myself.
Everyone wants to talk about having an open...until they come face to face with truth. That's when the lines must be drawn, because no one wants here that there is an absolute truth. That there is a right and wrong, they don't want to be punished for their crimes and hatred of God. Yet, by human standards we want justice for crimes done to us(child or adult)...why then get mad at God for doing the same thing...? this is the answer to 'What's your problem?' In Christ's own words...
This is Jesus speaking:
19 "This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed". (John 3:19-20 NIV)Hey, wow. That sounds just like the Christian Church as a whole!
That was very exciting to me. Whew. Truth. Truth
10 stars... marvelous timing.Sorry, but your God's justice is not justice at all, it is hatred, malice and selfish tyranny when compared to human standards. Your religion does not offer any truths, let alone absolute truths, it offers only myths and superstitions from the Bronze Age.
Do you call this justice?
Ephesians 6:5 (NLT)
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.
Exodus 21:20-21 NLT
If a man beats his male or female slave with a club and the slave dies as a result, the owner must be punished. But if the slave recovers within a day or two, then the owner shall not be punished, since the slave is his property.
Leviticus 21:9 NLT
If a priest’s daughter defiles herself by becoming a prostitute, she also defiles her father’s holiness, and she must be burned to death.The instruction for the Isrealites were harsh! The Lord sends a message yo them/us about how seriously he takes sin. When Jesus came there was a living example of what God wants from his. No more need for killing. A complete sacrifice was available. God knows what he's doing.
Let's get this straight... There was a NEED for killing until Jesus showed up and was brutally slaughtered and God knows what he's doing.
God felt the need to do as he did. We can only speculate why. I think it was because it was necessary to keep health and peace among the wandering people. Fear was the tactic; and probably worked well for a while. When consequences are harsh, disobedience is less common. Jesus made the difference.
fear isn't the tactic of the new testament? "I am the way, the truth and the life - no one comes to the father but through me" "not everyone who says lord, lord will enter the kingdom of heaven" Hell is the fear of the New Testament. Love me, believe in me or burn forever. Sounds like the same tactic to me.
Do you know, for example that the jews do not believe in hell? That there was no hell whatsoever in the old testament? It was sheol. Everyone went there, including god who could go back and forth. It was not fire. It was not torture. It was a resting place.Ok J, I feel that you never could have gotten where you are without knowing this one. Remember? The Jews rejected God. They felt that all their recitation of scripture was the key to the Kingdom. They forgot the DOING part. They did not get it. They liked the ideas that their brains came up with. They began a new level of self-righteous that goes against the point for the practices given. They sinned and they made no bones about it. They sinned and then went after other sinners full-blast.
I remember your story well. You found out that your God was a lie because knowledge has made you smarter than. You found the piece that "unhooked" you from it because it became necessary to not believe. People do it everyday. It is ok to not believe. Which brings me to my next point: if you do not believe in it; what hell are you referring to??? Is there another that you read about?I'm quite sure you've found that piece that would unhook you, as well. Most people with morals do. Many, otherwise, good people just choose willful ignorance and blind faith, because of abject fear.
It's ok.Jesus unhooks me, thanks. You unhook you. Theres a difference. Abject fear causes people to run away. Ya know, deny they saw or heard anything.
Seems an extremely transparent way to evade REAL reality....by going into confusing, superfluous, and meaningless drivel, instead of sensible exchange.
No...abject fear causes people to see phantoms where there are only shadows cast from the living. They hear the voice of the monster God inside their heads, while they pretend he's not a monster, because they took the bait, and decided to settle for the lesser of the two evils. God or Hell! Then the constant fear keeps them in a state of perpetual slavery toward someone else's imagined, and childishly brutal, fantasy. A rigid and ruthless program(indoctrination)
Though they have the acumen to discern this as folly, FEAR takes the wheel and drives, while they sit, in the passenger seat.....paralyzed.You back to the "Spider man" convention??? I wonder what type of fear it is that you have. Hmmm... could it be... Satan!!!" (Saturday nite live crew laughing)
You are really afraid of "Spidey" and his supposed threats???
For the record "Jesus unhooks me" was in response to your comments about my finding the piece that would unhook me. Not drivel. Don't you even listen to yourself? Jesus paid the price; and I believe that.
Now I am free. Now YOU are free to not believe. But you are not comfortable with that are you? Spidey is not at the convention. But he will hear you whenever you call. Whatever your situation. Gays, murderers, whoremongers, thieves, liars, and Republicans (lol) are all welcome to call him. He is not tyrannical. He wants us all. He is available to all. He asks for your faith. Faith covers a lot. When the spirit is with you, you BEGIN to think like him. You BECOME new. Not tonight; but as you grow. Sin is here to stay. If somebody tells you they have none, the bible calls him/her a liar.
G'on somewhere!!!
You and I know that you are not really answering the question. But you have decided to rewrite the question, then make it appear as if you are answering MY question. Then you go on, incessantly heaping accolades and slavish adulation upon a fictional character. Seems you are trying your best to evade ANY logic....coming from ANYONE. Buy I understand.....as accepting ANY logic would completely destroy your fantasy....and the fictional character would be put into the correct category. And you'll have to deal with reality. But....ha...ha...ha....you are way too vested to do such a thing. Reality is too scary to handle! Isn't it? And some people have to evade it at all cost?
Drivel. Why do you feel the need to keep preaching, and heaping all of these accolades upon some fictional character, in a book of ancient fairytales? You act as if you have proven his existence to us, but all you have is a belief in something that is completely absurd. Could you ever consider just being straightforward?
No....you are far from free.
Please understand that this entire paragraph is frighteningly disturbing.Frankly, you are disturbing. As well; you have not answered my questions. You refuse to leave me to my "folly". It seems you want some (if only a very tiny bit). Why do you come? Why are you so obsessed with my fiction? I don't care what you say; I will not be at your hail Spidey fundraiser; nor your monthly getitrite gold medal reception. Yet you are STILL running after Jesus (this fictional character) who deserves each and every accolade I can muster. I say he's real. You are hoping... but believe that YOU are right. You elevate your opinion to dangerous levels for you'd rather see YOURSELF as all-knowing. I know better... wish you did. You wud probably see the err in your logic. (I sure hope there's a Spider-Man convention today so I can pass out my flyers about how utterly silly and stupid they all are. Cant forget my ray gun for the rowdy ones.)
I attack your comments, but you attack me, personally.
I have answered each of your questions clearly. Only someone needing remedial reading comprehension class would disagree with that.
That's like wanting to eat out of the dumpster, because I see hobos doing it. What I would like is for you to one day accept that there is a world outside of this nonsense that you have blindly accepted, while the real world is slipping right away, along with your years of life. You have nothing but a diversion from real life....the life you are allowing to be taken away by this childish and foolish religion.
No one is obsessed with your fiction. But some people care enough to try to right an injustice when they see one. Your beliefs are downright silly, however indoctrination did a stellar job in making you into the desired finished product. You can't be changed. Your mind was taken over long ago, and so were your forebears, who, blindly taught you that a silly fairy tale was reality.....not having the awareness to even know they were lying to you. Unlike what you would like to think, I have no desire to believe my forebears, as they were tricked as well. Therefore your claim that I am chasing some silly imaginary foolish "savior" is completely absurd....and would suggest that my mind and will are just as weak as the fearful blind followers. I despise all religious stupidity. I seek NOT Jesus, because, unlike you, I have the courage to accept that there is no Jesus. That's the benefit of accepting reality.
With no evidence whatsoever, that would make you appear to be woefully dishonest. Of course morals are not required to be a believer, just emotional weakness....a weak will, and a propensity to fear authority.
If you could really see your religion for what it really is, you would be hoping that I was right too. The deity that you give all these accolades is nothing but an extreme monstrosity, demanding the most childish and ignorant things, and commanding no one question his ignorance of science, or his countless abuses. Yet you believe you want to spend eternity with a piece of garbage like that.
You say that you know better than I know, yet I have deconstructed everyone of your arguments. You haven't provided even the smallest challenge to my assertions. All you have done with my arguments is evade...while stating inane and whimsical nonsense about a deity that you have not provided any proof of. At least I have credibility on my side. Yours has been long lost.
Again, I ask: DO YOU SEE "IN SPIDER MAN WE TRUST" ON OUR MONEY? DO YOU SEE CITIZENS ASKED TO SWEAR ON A MARVEL COMIC BEFORE GIVING TESTIMONY IN A PUBLIC COURT ROOM?
You can ignore delusional believers in Spider Man because it has no effect on your life....unlike your intrusive ancient fairy tale.Man, this debate has been going on for a while and the anticipation is killing me! I can't wait to see if the Christians or the atheists win. No pressure here, but I heard that the Pope and Richard Dawkins are also watching closely to see the outcome.
Just let me know before Sunday so I will know if my church will open the doors.
Keep up the good work!The desire to continually converse concerning something considered fiction says more about one's piece of mind than anything.
As for your money: I would not accept a piece of paper that states in Spidey we trust. If I were you, I'd toss those "greenbacks." Better still... I'd give them all away.
It speaks well for MY argument that the establishers of this country believed and became one of the world powers. I like that.Yes, the "establishers" made it America's motto in 1956 and put it on paper money in 1957. Or is American History another thing that you think Christ forbids learning?
Sure, find it there...Quote it here. And "In the year of.." doesn't count. That's just how they said A.D. back then.
Good luck with that.God isn't mentioned in the Constitution...The word Creator is used...Oh and the motto for the USA from our founding fathers was... E pluribus unum...Latin for "Out of many, one"
** Edit** as Melissa has pointed out...Neither God nor the word Creator is in the Constitution...But the word Creator is used in the Declaration of Independence...My Mistake..And thanks to Melissa for the correction...
so you don't know anything about biblical history, early church history OR U.S. history. Interesting.
You do understand that a large number of our founding father's despised Christianity and the church and that the "God" mentioned in the constitution is in reference to deism, not Christianity, yes?Apparently every U.S. History and/or Civics class.
If you can write "Am I banned?" chances are, you're not banned.
Just to point out and assist...God is not used in the Constitution...The word Creator is though...
No, it isn't DS. Neither the word God nor Creator are in the Constitution.
Here's a link to the transcript...
http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charte … cript.htmlYou are correct...Thanks for that...I am thinking of the Declaration of Independence...
I recognized my mistake after the fact. I was thinking of the term "creator" in the bill of rights, and attempting to point out that the use of the word creator doesn't mean what she seems to think it means. Although I'm not entirely sure she understands the difference between theism and deism.
Yeah...I was thinking of the Declaration of Independence myself...We all make mistakes on occasion...And I agree, I don't think she knows the difference between the two either...I could be wrong though...
Umm.. I am pretty certian I didn't miss the point as to what me and JM were talking about...
I thought you and JM were talking about the lack of sufficient Christians as founders. And as always my education or lack thereof on the Const. matter.
We were discussing what words were contained in those documents...
And your knowledge of the difference between a theist and a deist...
If the founders were Christians, they didn't want religion in government...See comments from some of the founders in my earlier post...86DoubleScorpionposted 25 hours agoYeah...I was thinking of the Declaration of Independence myself...We all make mistakes on occasion...And I agree, I don't think she knows the difference between the two either...I could be wrong though...
Then you give me the pledge? Uh, difference between what? Deist and Theist?Ok.. Lets go slow... That was me and JM discussing a mistake of the word Creator being used in the constitution instead of God...When it was actually it was the Declaration of Independence and not the Constitution... and the Pledge was in response to this post of yours...
So you are saying the pledge was first? Ok, what does the pledge have to do with the first document the Declaration of Independence. You threw in the pledge which was not part of the discussion.
Yet another Straw Man creation. Just can't stay focused, I presume.
The pledge part of that, was to show...even Christians (Baptist Minister) Didn't put God into things concerning the government
Seems we've switched the conversation again. Are we trying to answer the OPs question or are we goingto bring up the holy people sent to find the new world.
We have already answered the OP from our conversations...So I guess we are tacking off course with this realm of conversation..Maybe we should start another Thread topic...
It's not about something considered fiction. It's about how believers, in this fiction, have been used for centuries to commit the worst abuses upon their fellow humans. Therefore it is evil that we are confronting. And deep down inside you know that's what we are doing, as you keep trying to shame us into giving you a carte blanche.
Another flippant way to avoid answering anything.
You don't have an argument. This is an effort in irrelevancy....going on and on, asserting meaningless and disturbing drivel, dodging everything that would destroy the rotting foundation of these putrid beliefs. No shame in your game.Just a quick note...
"In God we trust" didn't first appeared on U.S. coins until 1864 and didn't appear on paper currency until 1957.
When something makes no sense at all, it's most likely not true. You are now saying God felt the need to murder the people he loved in order keep peace. Do you even hear what you are saying?
They get a kick out of it...
anything else you want to know?The fact that you were brave enough to stand up, on behalf of others, was generous of you. I understand where you were coming from so allow me to say thank you for speaking out for ppl you felt were being bullied. I assume it wasn't easy for you.
Thanks Beth, you're absolutely right just scrolling through some of the forums I noticed a lot of belittling and bullying happening.
Bullied? LOL.
Wow, the hypocrisy of the OP is overwhelming. Of course, it is the Christians who tell us what to believe and how to live. Then, they threaten us will eternal hellfire if we don't abide by their rules. They call us evil and followers of Satan along with a host of other names if we don't readily accept their beliefs. They lie about everything and anything to defend their faith.
It is the Christians who are the bullies.As is yours, so please keep your religion behind closed doors where it belongs so we can all live our lives without hearing it.
And if I said that to a homosexual person? Would you tolerate that?
Again, I have yet to start a "religious" thread. How many have you started?Homosexuals are not evangelizing.
What does that have to do with your evangelism?I believe in God. I believe He is real and good and true and I have had dozens and dozens and dozens of experiences with Him, some miraculous.
Is that evangelizing?
If your response is to accuse, question or cast doubt, then I might respond with something that comes across as evangelizing... which is also free speech. You can silence me, but I believe it is simply a form of bigotry.
As far as starting threads, my point was, I usually respond to threads that an Atheist or Agnostic has started. I seldom ever respond to threads a Christian has started b/c 9 times out of 10 I don't agree with the original poster or the general tone set in the thread.
So if I am responding to a thread you or another has started, then I would imagine that you were the instigator... so why would you then tell me to be silent after having instigated the conversation. lol... It's an obvious ploy and it's repeated daily.It is all you do. Odd you need to lie and claim you do not. Why is that?
So my bio is unacceptable to you?
Have you heard of censoring?
You are so far over the top, I don't think you can even see the moon anymore.No - you asked if you were evangelizing. And yes - you are.
So my bio is off limits... am I allowed to talk about God to my friends or... could you tell me where I'm allowed to speak freely about my faith? In response to your threads is a no no... my bio is a no no... I just need clarification.
No - it is evangelizing. You asked. Still - you stop pushing it - I will stop telling you how divisive it is.
Deal?If you set up some forum rules for everyone it would make it easier.
You think this is about rules? Well - I guess that is what your religion teaches you. Don't think, just follow these rules. Except they don't apply to you of course.
No - this is about reasonable conversation. Not interested in the deal then? No believers ever are. They want to preach hatred and then play the martyr card when they are called on it. This is why your religion causes so many fights.
You sure we cannot come to an amicable arrangement? You would rather continue to fight?Do the forum rules state that folks are not supposed to preach here?
If not, and you do preach, then we have every right to speak our minds, just as you have every right to bully us.
But, that is not what you do, you have even admitted to evangelizing and stated that is what you are here to do, commanded by your religion.
No, that is delusion and dishonesty.
Agreed, your religion is full of bigotry, lots of it, and do indeed have the right to propagate it. It's not a matter of silencing you, it is a matter of education.
Of course, that isn't true at all, but I don't expect much, if any honesty from you.Well, I am proud of you at least. Look at you posting on both accounts at the same time. You are really working hard.
mean mean mean. but, you don't see it that way. you never will. How come?
According to Melissa's astute observation: I am calling the kettle black. How I don't know. Proof please. Quotes.
BTW You are certainly allowed to believe there is no God.
Certainly...(by God himself, in my humble, little tiny individual opinion.)
OKAY?
Actually, most people go through periods in their lives when they do not believe in God. So we really are on the same page more than you comprehend.Flip-flopping is hypocritical.
I seriously doubt we are on the same page.
How can that be an excellent question when it makes no sense whatsoever? Are you saying homosexuals evangelize their homosexuality door to door? Are you serious?
It would only make sense if you hated homosexuals.
Gay people, like me, are not "evangelizing". We're trying to gain equal rights and stop persecution. Gay persecution is a real thing - gay people get spit on, yelled at, beat up, raped, and even murdered. Guess what one of the biggest reasons discrimination and homophobia exists is? Maybe you guessed: religion.
I have no problem with religion if they aren't hurting or discriminating against other people, but I do have a problem with you telling gay people to leave it behind closed doors - when exposing the horrors of intolerance is the only way to move forward.Do you believe that ppl of faith do not understand persecution?
"but I do have a problem with you telling gay people to leave it behind closed doors"
When did I ever do that? I was in fact the one who made the very point that in today's world, that is not acceptable. That's my quote above that your responding to.
Have many ppl who called themselves followers of God done terrible things in His name? Without a doubt. There are many officers of the law who have done atrocities, as well as parents, teachers, ppl in authority who should be trusted, basically. This is sad, evil and wrong. It's the very reason I believe today's world needs Jesus and if you believe you and I have equal rights, I should be allowed to express that belief without persecution.Those who yell persecution simply because others don't accept the irrational beliefs shoved down their throats most certainly have no understanding of persecution.
History is replete with ample examples.
You are not being persecuted, so don't complain about it. We don't need your Jesus and we don't want to hear you telling us that. Your evangelism is not the same as having equal rights, it is an abuse of those rights.Does Sally love Sue? Does Suzie have a right to say that to the world? If you believe she does, then you should not tell me I can't say Jesus loves me, or even that Jesus loves you. If Suzie wants to stand on a pedestal and tell the world their love story, and why their love should be considered beautiful and acceptable, you cannot tell me I can't do the same.
And PS, you claiming it's not persecution, does not mean it's not persecution. It's simply denial and that's on you.Sally and Sue are probably real people, Jesus is a myth. Sally and Sue do not tell people they are evil or will spend an eternity in hellfire if they don't accept the love they have for each other. Your comparison here is ridiculously off the mark by miles.
Jesus doesn't tell you anything and He doesn't tell me anything. You are getting that from a book written by other men hundreds of years ago.
But, they would not do that because they have respect for others, whereas you don't.
That would show clearly you don't know what is persecution and what is not.But... who ever is saying that you can't say you're a Christian, be proud to be a Christian, and share your "love story" with Jesus? Like, no one (assuming it's at the appropriate time and place, i.e. not in a classroom in a public school)?
I am kind of offended that you would even compare a lesbian coming out with her struggles, and a Christian coming out as... a Christian.
If someone is bothering you for being a Christian, that is unfair. However, is someone is criticizing you for using religion to persecute others, deny academia and science, and going around telling everyone that they are going to hell, well, that's a different story. The fact is, systematic persecution of Christians doesn't exist in Western countries - but it does exist for gay people, and dare I suggest, non-Christians to some extent. You might sometimes struggle as a Christian, but in the end, you are of the majority religion and are better off than any other belief.
Persecution? When have you ever been persecuted for your religious beliefs in North America?
+1,000,000,000,000, Rad Man, Atheists are demonized and stigmatized in this religious majority society. Atheists are oftentimes viewed as "the lesser" and "the other". Religious people are glorified in this society, even in this postmodern culture. Religion in American society is viewed as the BE and END ALL. Religious people are viewed as more respectable and moral than a person who is an Atheist although religion and morality are mutually exclusive. Religion is the cloak of respectability and inclusiveness in many parts of American society. It is only recently that Atheists and other non-traditional spiritualists are respected and recognized.
We need Jesus huh? After all the horrible atrocities caused by believers of Jesus, you think we, somehow, still need this garbage....like Jesus is some kind of an answer. Just pour some more fuel on the flames. Jesus is not the answer, Jesus is the problem.
And I should be able to express that belief without persecution.I apologize if I somehow am misinterpreting your post, but it sounds like
a) you're saying that Christians are routinely persecuted on a level compared to gay people
b) or you should have the right to tell gay people they should keep it behind closed doors.
For the record, I don't agree with the above poster that religious people have to keep it behind closed doors, I think everyone has the right to live their religion as they see fit - however, respecting separation of church and state, respecting the choices of other people, not persecuting others. There is a difference between asserting your religious belief, and actively denying the rights (and safety, and life) of people you disagree with.
I don't necessarily agree that religion is inherently the problem. But I would say that people using religion for bad reasons is a problem, and a lot of people have suffered and continue to suffer for that.
No, its the atheists who are the bullies. How dare you say we are bullies. Christians are not bullies by their very natures! Proof please? Quotes.
Do I? proof please. quotes. What a bash this is!
You're about a couple clouds of digital spittle away from having automated machine gun turrets on top of your rhetorical fortress. That's quite defensive.
--->what is a cloud of non-digital spittle? can spittle of any type be shot from turrets? Have you ever illustrated that image?
Clearly interpreting metaphors is something you're lacking in.
"Your vehement defensive posts are metaphorically creating a fortress, and you're just a few more away from having automated defenses on said fortress." <-- Is that clear and obvious enough for you yet, or do I have to simplify it further?...what is an "automated" defense? What does that look like? I guess we will never be friends. Okay, I will stop trying now.
I will take my fortress and go. Draw me looking very sad... a tear drop escaping my glancing eye. Snow capped Edo in the background. Waves of egg shell blue in the foreground. I am hanging on with one hand in a storm to the bows of a lone pine...
But never mind, I'll be fine....An automated defense is a defensive mechanism that activates automatically. An alarm when you open a fire door. A set of sprinklers turning on when a fire is detected. A robotic machine gun turret that fires at a target area where it detects motion.
So, Christians (and others) have automated defense systems that fire at atheists. DID YOU HEAR THAT THEISTS? Stop with your automatic defense tactics already!
Maybe we can all get along now.
And be friends.
Right, Zelkirro?
do Christians not call atheists names or tell them that they're going to hell because they don't believe in god?
Christians don't have a very good track record of being tolerant. They burned people at the stake for believing a different religion - or even suspecting someone of being a different religion. They accused people by the hundreds of witchcraft for using herbs. They burned, tortured and slaughtered people in the hundreds of thousands ever since Christianity became the official state religion of Rome. Does that sound tolerant to you? How about the Christians who tell homosexuals that they don't deserve equal rights because they're immoral or unnatural. How about the Christians who want to put religion back into public schools - but only THEIR religion. The same Christians that would pitch a fit if someone offered an Islamic prayer in the same school. DO you not see these events as bullying?
Are Christians the only people who should have the right to freedom of religion or free speech? Don't atheists have the right to express themselves? I'm sorry you don't like it, but that doesn't mean we can't say it. The fact that we express our opinions does not limit or restrict your rights. If you want the freedom to believe and say whatever you want, the opposition shares the same. That's just the way it works.You should know that those Christians were not following the teachings of Jesus. Please don't base your facts on a bunch of psychopaths that gave Christianity a bad name
The point is that the people who did that DID believe that they were following the bible - and saying what you just posted in that one post would be enough to get you tortured, condemned and burned at the stake. You know that, right?
And what about the Christians today? They don't torture people, but you've got some of them saying that homosexuals should be executed and the only way possible for a Christian to attend a gay wedding is if they make and hold up a sign quoting Leviticus that says they should be put to death?
the "oh those people weren't true christians is the No True Scotsman fallacy. It's a logical fallacy common but still irrelevant in debates.
Beliefs do not exist in a vacuum. They affect other people - often negatively. That's what atheists care about - the true separation of Church and state. Don't you think it's slightly hypocritical for someone wearing a cross around their neck with a Jesus fish on their car to want me to change my shirt if it says "atheist" on it because I am "pushing my atheism" on them by wearing a t-shirt in a free country that allows them to prominently display their religious icons?Yes but I believe that violence is the nature of man. Also many Christians don't condemn they volunteer time to the community to help and better it to those who want it. You can take extremist from every section of society in the world not just religious groups. I have had atheist attack me, and tell me to call to my god for help if he was real. I'm not even a bible thumping Christian. I believe all have the right to live as they please, and none know if what they believe is real.
Also although we hold opposing views, I admire you. You are a great writer and also a amazing thinker JMc may I follow you?you have had an atheist attack you? In what form?
Did they physically hurt you?
I'm sorry, I find that hard to believe.Yes I was attacked physically by a group, grant it they were young and you might label it as mere bullying but the reason for the attack was my religion as they took turns beating on me.
It doesn't really matter if you believe it because the fact is that it did happen. I have never met a violent Christian or Muslim but I do not deny that they exist. Nor do feel this is the major view of atheist. My friends that hold a atheist view point tend to be more understanding and easier to talk to, but my point is that due to personal experience I know that some atheist just like any other group has radicals too.How do you know they were atheists? I personally have never seen a group of young Atheists roaming around. Your story seems a little hard to believe.
This doesn't.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/nigeria-mi … -1.1872387I know this because I knew them. I never said they were just roaming around, otherwise they would not have attacked me, because I don't preach my beliefs. Why because all atheist are perfect humans? that's no more absurd then me saying all religious people are perfect.
Neither does this
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/06/02 … use-faith/You made it sound like a group of Atheist attacked you because of your beliefs. From what you are saying now that doesn't appear to be the case. I not sure you could have known they were all Atheists and I'm not sure you could have know why they attacked you.
You do understand that those attacks from your post are not from Atheists right? It's believers killing believers.
""It’s easing in the old Communist world and it's rising in the Islamic world," King said, noting in particular countries like Egypt, Pakistan and Nigeria. King said that the first major killing spree in recent years happened between 1998 and 2003, when he claims 10,000 Christians were murdered in Indonesia alone during those years."
My point is to learn to respect people no matter what they believe, do or love. All people have done something wrong and no one is perfect, so radman stop trying to twist what I am saying onto being against atheist. I do not have time for anyone who is close minded and unwilling to consider others views and experiences.
You didn't even attempt to answer my question. How do you know they were Atheists?
I think you just missed one of his posts, Rad. Here is the pertinent part:
And how does he know they beat him up for his religion?
There are lots of reasons to beat someone up.
In the same vein, but completely unrelated to Fuginagasaki, I'm seeing from lots of people "Atheists hate me because I am Christian"
My general opinion is there are so many reasons to hate certain people that their faith ranks way down the list.The truth is I've never meet a Muslim I didn't really like. I know they exist because I read the news. I have meet a few Christians I didn't like, but that's only because I'm surrounded by them.
I have to say, I've never heard of a bunch of Atheists attacking someone because of their faith. It's actually rather rare to see more than a few of us together and even when we are we most likely don't know it as we don't talk about it.To be honest, I spend very little time discussing religion with the people around me either. I talk about it at services and possibly with my friends from my fellowship occasionally... but we like to argue.
I think it's like anything else, if one is obsessed with something then they talk about it constantly. Those more balanced have other things to discuss. I wouldn't imagine a group of atheists standing around talking about something they don't believe in. Those kinds of conversations just don't happen in real life. I mean I don't stand around with my friends discussing pink unicorns.
If the only thing in my life was pink unicorns though... I don't guess I'd talk about much besides them.
But I digress, sort of, my big thing is I can't deal with zealots. It has nothing to do with the philosophy of a zealot. It's all about the PERSONALITY of the zealot. If I'm telling someone to shut up and stop talking about Justin Bieber, it's not because I have anything against Justin Bieber, it's because I can only deal with someone yapping incessantly about one thing for so long before it gets on my nerves.
Of course the person I tell to shut up will automatically assume it's because I hate the Bieber. I guess that's because they have trouble believing themselves to be annoying.
But, that is not true, if it were, we wouldn't be here talking so pleasantly. It is actually bad ideologies like your religion that causes good people to do bad things. And of course, the bad things that occur are usually committed by a very tiny minority of the overall population.
You are agreeing with and defending them here on these forums.
Those are the facts. Sorry, if you don't like the label, but it is dead on correct.
I get told I'm going to hell all the time for not being a Christian.
It's much worse than a simple "you're going to hell" when many Christians find out I'm gay.
Sorry if I don't feel sorry for members of the majority religion and their whining about how victimized they are.
Hey man I have been following this forum and while you say that all Christians do is fight, fight, fight while you seem to be the antagonist. While I am not a "Christian" I cant say that they are all bad the majority I have met and befriended seem to be good, loving humans just as my Islamic, Hindi, and Sick friends. I you are truly a atheist who wants to change the world for the better, change yourself and stop being so argumentative.
accept peoples views as their own and be confident in your own, as Christians say " turn the other cheek."
If I come off as rude I apologize. Also what is with this getting upset about the fiery pits of hell? how is that a insult if you don't believe in it, I don't get offended by that anymore than I would if someone told me Zeus would come down and smite me with a lightning bolt. It is silly.No, you're not rude, you're just not observing reality and what is going in the world. There would be no need to say anything at all if Christian simply kept their beliefs behind closed doors where they belong.
Of course, it's silly, but that doesn't diminish the fact that people are evangelizing that nonsense, that they are pushing it down our throats and all we ask is that they stop.ya I apologize as I read on realized the Christians on this forum can be just as bad.
Your fight and anger is with God, So why are you continuously saying "Christians" this and that...Christ himself has said that those who do not believe "condemn themselves"
I understand now, as I read these comments, what Jesus meant when he said; if they hate me, they will hate you also .Sorry, but God is not the one writing nonsense on these forums or didn't you know that?
Yes, I understand Christians are compelled to pass on what they believe to others especially when they are threats of condemnation, that is why they don't take responsibility for their own actions and cause so much conflict in the world, as you're doing now.
Me hating Jesus and you --->
Does the fact that something is enjoyable make it good? If you knew someone who enjoyed drinking battery acid and wanted to give it to their children, would you let them?
I have no problem with personal faith. The problem is that personal faith is rarely personal. When theists go out of their way to threaten me with hell, it's no longer personal and my free speech is just as valid as their's. When they vote to restrict or condemn gay rights, it's affecting the equal rights of others and it's no longer personal faith. If people want to be free to believe what they want, they have to recognize that other people have the same right to disagree.
I'm not out to deconvert anyone. I like discussing religion because I was raised in it and I've spent a lifetime studying it. If that's problematic for atheists to express their views, it's equally problematic for theists. Simple.Comparing the teachings of jesus to battery acid is a bit far fetched. I do agree that some God lovers do go out of their way to preach however I have noticed that there's a huge growing atheist movement out there that spend their lives on forums and posting anti god slogans and they seem to take pride and go above and beyond to prove there's no God.
Sometimes, I wonder if they're getting a paycheck from... It's the same with the topic of socialism. Thank goodness that discussion has died down. Keep fighting, I say....for the sake of those who believe. But, If its too much for (any of) YOU, stop.
Some prominent atheists here are from other countries. Our country is based on religious freedom. Actually, I accept atheists just fine. I wish they understood this attitude.
Why would we fight
them????
We believers fight for our right to believe, in my estimation.Yes, that's what it all boils down to, you fight and fight and fight, and then pull the persecution card when folks get tired of your fighting all the time.
You give us reason to fight. Otherwise we would just be living peacefully without a care in the world...
That is so far from the truth, it is hilarious.
YOU are the ones who start the fights. You do not live in peace and you don't allow others to live in peace.
Show us these anti-god slogans, or else retract your accusation.
This makes me think you don't know many atheists. We don't have to disprove a god until one had been proven. That's never happened.
So Christians can flood the forms with religious posts, but atheists don't have the free speech to respond with their opinions and thoughts? I like discussing religion because I've spent my life studying it. Should only people who agree be allowed to participate? If so, then each denomination should have their own specific forum as well. That's the pesky thing about free speech. It applies to everyone.
Shh! It's OK for the theist to follow the edicts of their god and browbeat everyone in hearing with threats of hellfire, but it's not OK for the atheist to ever say anything at all.
Reminds me of the Christian I saw in Vegas; set up a PA system outside the Bellagio, on the sidewalk, and harangued people waiting for the water show. Really, really irritating to have this Bimbo 10' away with her loudspeakers going after my soul when all I wanted was to see the dancing waters. I was glad when the show started as it kept me from putting a foot into the woofers or throwing the microphone into the pond.
There was a Japanese tour waiting with me; made me wonder what kind of view of Americans they were going to take home with them.So, you take it out on us, here in the hP forums?
Who browbeats with threats of hellfire, here?
Quotes please.You want to know something funny? On any given day, I can walk and and see hundreds of crucifixes around people's necks. If I wear an atheist shirt, however, I am suddenly offensive and blatantly flaunting my atheism. The double standard is simultaneously amusing and disturbing. Apparently, only the religious have the right to flaunt their beliefs and anyone else who does the same is somehow infringing on THEIR rights, somehow.
So, you admit believers are just little children who need to believe in fairy tales?
Tell you what - you keep your irrational beliefs to yourself and I promise not to tell you how silly they are.
Do we have a deal?Just to clarify... I think this is what she was addressing.
Really? How odd. Wasn't that a reasonable offer?
If I silence myself concerning all matters of faith, you promise not to mock and insult me and or my beliefs? I guess I should have thanked you.
If you believe garbage - that is your business. Sorry your beliefs are so silly, but you cannot honestly expect to share them without being mocked. Really?
Again, I believe this is the tone she was addressing.
(And no, you certainly don't have to share them. Your life is... Your Own.)Please don't be such a martyr. Believe garbage - that is your business. Spread it and you will be mocked. I mean - have you read that garbage scripture you keep copy pasting? Odd - you don't want the deal either? Believers never do.
Mark Knowles - May I use you as the perfect case study (Bully) for my post. Kind regards
Sure, as long as you make sure that you admit you started an inflammatory, insulting forum thread and called people names. Like in the post I'm replying to.
There's a word for people who do what they call down others for doing...
Starts with an H.
The fact is you purposely started a conversation that caused at last look, 5 pages of the behavior you claim to be above... and you did it on purpose.
That word starts with a T.No need to create fabrications. Quote"You did that on purpose" ... you must also have a natural talent as a psychic since you claim to also mind read. When and where did i call anyone the following.. evil, dilusional, garbage, dishonest, bigot?
Oh, so there are some names that are OK to call people and some names that aren't.
You know, it's funny I've never been called any of those things. (by atheists on this forum) Yet most of the Atheists know I am a Christian.
Let's ponder that for a while.
So yeah, in the future don't try and stand up for me. I am quite capable of doing it myself. I don't need someone like YOU defending MY religion. Especially not with this kind of display.
You said yourself you weren't a believer... so what dog do you have in this fight? Did someone call you a mean name so you decided to speak for all Christianity? Who gave you that right? I would suggest if someone called you a name you might want to think about whether it fit instead of trying to get everybody on your side.Once again you are mind reading. Making assumptions you know my character and thoughts is quite amuzing. Just because I dont believe in God does not mean I dont have the right to stand up to bullying. Are you saying just because someone is a man they dont have a right to stand up for women's right? Or if i'm not gay I'm not allowed to stand up for gays. Please rather than attacking blindly try and make some sense. This discussion ends here. Have a nice day
Just reading what you wrote darlin'
And when you are "sticking up" for someone (An act that coincidentally gets you lots and lots of attention, although surely that isn't the reason... right?) You might want to ask their permission. Like I said, I surely don't need you to defend me. As a matter of fact, it's quite insulting that YOU think you could do a better job of it... you know considering how you've presented yourself so far.
So by all means, stand up to bullies.... ROFLMAO... sorry couldn't help myself.
Might I suggest you actually stand up for someone who is actually being bullied? Or does your ROFLMAO again selfless civic duty only apply to sitting on your computer typing untruths to defend people you could care less about?
You know... go to a school, go help the homeless, go actually do something that matters to people that ARE being bullied. Or does your sense of righteousness not extend past a writers forum with people you will never meet face to face?
Dang! This dude is ruthless! Imagine him as dictator
Are promises usually followed by question marks?
*The above is not a promise.Ah, so you will continue to evangelize.
Unfortunately, this false hope has been tied to religions....pretending to be the comforter of the downtrodden, sick, and dying. But when you read the Holy Books, what you read mostly is about an insufferable torment, and persistent abuse, bullying and murder of everyone who doesn't conform. How can a monstrous concept as such provide any kind of comfort? People don't need this evil in order to feel hope. They just need to become adults.
You couldn't have said it better. I admire you. I am currently writing a new hub about Why I Have Come Back to the Catholic Church! blessings
peace loveThe truth is because they are terrified they may be wrong and are trying to convince Christians, or belittle them, to make them feel better and more vindicated. Usually those type of atheists are those how were formerly Christians.
No, it's that we understand that we are right, and would like people to stop telling us to believe as they do or we will burn in hell. It's only been a few years since I've been able to shop on a Sunday. We have a Pope who says "who is he to judge" and then tells his followers to refuse to perform abortions and that homosexuals acts are sins. We have the religious actively involved in promoting their beliefs in politics. So if you are allowed to voice your opinion so am I.
The Bible is a book of silly childish fairy tales. Only people with minds riddled with paranoia would allow themselves to be terrified by such primitive and foolish make-believe. If you fear fairy tales, that's fine, although cause for concern......but please stop slandering others. SMH
Slandering others? And you don't think you do exactly that?
No I don't. Slandering is making false, smearing accusations against someone. I have only stated facts about the absurd beliefs of Christians and other deluded minds. Of course you are welcome to, and I encourage you, to deconstruct my arguments at any time....to prove that I have committed slander.
You can't speak for all atheists. How can you say for sure what I said isn't true? You are also assuming that Christians have deluded minds. Who says that is true for all?
I never said that I did know for sure....but there is something called logic, and using simple logic, your beliefs carry the same weight as Rumpelstiltskin, or Dark Vader. I don't see anyone trying to make absolutely sure that Rumpelstiltskin isn't a true story. Seems kinda desperate.
What is your definition of deluded?
I guess it just all comes down to intellectual honesty.getitrite, you have no idea what intellectual honesty is. Your "logic" has no basis in sound scholarship; it is merely sarcasm clothed in "intellectual" wording that may sound logical to the uninformed, but in reality, is actually riddled with flawed theories. In short, any scholar worth their salt would have no choice but to disagree with your flawed version of what constitutes actual truth. In other words, guidelines exist for determining what is historically accurate and what is not. You have not met any of those guidelines --ever-- in anything you have written with regard to Bible history. Furthermore, you have been especially arrogant and belittling in your comments toward Claire Evans, who unlike you, has always replied to your sarcasm without malice and with solid research. In fact, toward her, you have been the perfect bully. I am not impressed with your false intellectualism. You can delude your friends, or those who don't know any better -- but you don't impress me. Bullies don't have the discipline or courage for intellectual honesty-- that's why they're bullies.
And just who would you define as the "uninformed"...?
Could you cite examples of my flawed logic, then we can go from there?
Unless someone has been living under a rock, they should know that....the bible is NOT history!
"The historical narratives of the Old Testament are filled with legendary fabrications and the book of Acts in the New Testament contains historically unreliable information about the life and teachings of Paul. Many of the books of the New Testament are pseudonymous – written not by the apostles but by later writers claiming to be apostles. The list goes on."
~Bart Ehrman
Research? Hilarious! Those replies were all from a perspective of delusion, twisting logic and posing more illogical unproven rhetoric, as if that's the method by which one PROVES his/her point. However, I do sympathize with Claire.
I simply tried to get her to see that her assertions make no sense at all....in the REAL world. And, again, I do sympathize with Claire. It is the delusion, which has permeated her thoughts, that I am attacking.
Wow! Someone finally caught me....trying to pass as intelligent. I had a good con going until you came along and exposed me for the phony that I really am. Please don't tell any of my friends, as I still have them all tricked.
Good luck with your anti-bullying campaign. Let me know if I can help.Bart Ehrman bases his discussions on variants in the Bible, which he has grossly exaggerated, by about 1000%, actually. He is a modern scholar who maintains an inflexible view of inerrancy in a manner that seems logical until one realizes that these variants he speaks of are of no consequence when interpreting the meanings behind the words in the Biblical manuscripts, ie. wrong spellings, words placed here, instead of there, etc.. Yet the meaning and inspiration behind the words remains clear, regardless. The Biblical manuscripts have already been proven as the best and most accurate piece of historic evidence that exists, out of any other piece of evidence that refers to any historical person, including Julius Ceasar, for example.
Furthermore, Ehrmans views are not respected by those who take textual criticism seriously, as he infuses his own inner views into his arguments. Serious historians would never do this; they only rely on facts.
That having been said, I know that the only thing that interests you is sarcasm, and belittling those who don't agree with you, so I'll pass on your offer. But, thanks for proving my point about what you do best.So I guess it is perfectly logical to believe that a tribe of ancient goat herders knew the creator of the universe, and that the creator talked directly to them, and told them that He wants us to show continued sycophancy, although He is never going to show us one real shred of evidence. Yep, you have shown me the light....although it sounds a lot like wishful thinking, and abject slavery!
It is, distressingly, apparent that the Dark Ages are still here in 2013.I answered your question, and "cited an example of your flawed logic" as you asked, and yet-- you have switched to another question, rather than choosing to defend your position in any reasonable way. Is that the best you can come up with? Goat herders and Dark Ages? Typical, but hardly interesting. How about defending Bart Ehrman, and sticking to the subject you brought up, instead of going off on another sarcastic tangent.
Or is Ehrmans position indefensible -- or maybe you just don't know -- That would be my guess, as you've yet to say anything about the "evidence" you claim to hold so dear.
actually (from someone who has actually read his books and audited a couple of his lectures that he gives at Chapel Hill, NC) only a small fraction of Ehrman's arguments have to do with variants in the text. Ehrman actually goes out of his way to make it clear that the large,overwhelming majority of these variants are minor and insignificant.
Where did you attend bible college, and what degree did you achieve? Where did you go on to secondary seminary? How many years have you spent working, researching and teaching in the field? I'm just curious as to what background you may have to assert that a well-respected (although often disagreed with) actual SCHOLAR is unqualified or overly biased to be able to comment on his professional field of study. Have you read his books? Attended his lectures? By what basis do you make this summary judgment?
Ehrman is an agnostic. He used to be a believer while at Moody Bible Institute, as well as Princeton Theological seminary. Does his bias or unbelief cloud his views? Possibly - although he is the bible scholar that most christians refer me to when discussing a historical Jesus. If that's the case, then, you should also toss out the majority of works produced by bible believing christians, because their bias must obviously cloud their work as well - or is it your assertion that bias only works for non-believers and since christians have "truth" everything they say must be true? If so, that's certainly not the case. Compare Lee Strobel's the Case for Christ against Robert Price (also a graduate and teacher at a theological seminary) and the case against the case for christ. Although I'm the first person to admit that I don't agree with everything that Ehrman (or any scholar for that matter) says, I've done the research myself - for over 15 years at a collegiate level and beyond.Jim, I do not have to qualify myself to you. I am happy for your specific education, as it is a wonderful and important thing. That having been said, all you need to know is that I have good mind, as do you. However, like most people, probably including you, I do not have to become a scientist in order to believe the earth is round. I can trust that others more qualified than me have determined some truths and uncovered evidence. Ehrman does have valuable information, and he is a distinguished scholar, but he has also stated that historical manuscripts are unreliable. This is untrue, and unacceptable. My understanding is that Ehrman quoted approximately 4000+ variants, although only 49 exist. Please tell me where he went out of his way to explain this. I do not say this sarcastically, I just want to know.
Whenever anyone goes on a quest for truth, one examines the evidence they find from those who understand historical context, who understand Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic, and who are sound historians. I have read many books by peer-respected scholars. I look for those who are the cream of the crop. If enough scholars determine that another has made up his own rules, this does not remove his level of education, but it does determine his reliability.Insignificant point, but my name is not Jim. I'm a girl. People call me JM (for JMcFarland)
I never said that you didn't have a good mind. I'm saying if you're going to write off Ehrman's body of work because you think he's wrong about points that he's spent his entire professional life proving, demonstrating and writing (in peer reviewed books and lectures) then I would expect your educational level in the same field to be on par. I'm not a biblical scholar by any means, but I am pursuing a degree in ancient history and early christianity after obtaining my degree in biblical literature and theology. I'm not an armchair counter apologist either. So again, no - you don't have to qualify yourself to me. But since I do read ancient Greek, Hebrew and Latin (since none of the New Testament was written in Aramaic) I'd like to know your qualifications or sources to make such a statement. If you find Ehrman reliable, fine. If you find him unreliable, then he's hardly the reputable, respected scholar that you turn around and say he is. Which is it? You can look up Ehrman's lectures. You can find his debates online. You can read his books (specifically Forged, Lost Christianities and Misquoting Jesus) Is it your understanding of what he's said that's in question - or is it what he's actually claimed in his body of work - with references, examples and footnotes? Have you read his work? What he actually says in Misquoting Jesus is that there are more variants (misspellings, missing letters, sometimes words have been altered/changed - but this is admittedly the minority, which he himself states) than there are words in the new testament.) Additionally, these variants are not necessarily negative. Sometimes they help those in the field of biblical reconstruction and study because they help to determine the earliest versions and preserve the tradition of the NT stories. Seeing these variants as automatically bad is a detrimental view to the field of biblical study. It means no such negative thing. The reason for all of these variants is additionally relevant because we have so many copies and so many manuscripts. Again, the variants in the NT are only a small fraction of his position, and since it is a point that is commonly accepted in the field of biblical scholarship, I find it a minor point to squabble about. Hardly enough to write off a very reputable, respected author and scholar in the field - like you did in your original response.
Only 49 variants exist? In all of the New Testament? What are your sources? That seems unreasonable to me based on the simple reality of how the books were preserved and passed down. Scribes copy texts, and there are examples of things being inserted into the text that were not in earlier manuscripts. (for example, the woman caught in adultery story, or the second ending to the gospel of Mark). Without printing presses, it's fully understandable that misspellings and scribal errors occur. Additionally, 49 errors as compared to what, since we have no original manuscripts of any of the new testament books to compare the existing fragments and copies to?
This link (for someone who may be biased TOWARDS christianity and not agnostcism) may help.
http://www.denverseminary.edu/craig-blo … ent-alone/
Again, Ehrman does not reject Christianity because of these variants - nor does anyone I know. It's a small subset of a larger argument on the reliability of the bible as a whole, the claims made therein and the absolute lack of proof to back it up.Faith at its finest... See how plain it is to see what "word" is preferred? Nobody saw his scripts or experiments, yet, because he said "I found some info and "y'all was right!!!" so many have faith in his accounts. The bible could not hold all the texts. No one book can. Hi JM without the i. Remember MY "Jim mistake?
I remember... sorry again.
The words have been translated sufficiently. God is smart. And he can POSSIBLY out-think all of us. He knows that all who WANT to know his truth, will. The bible is where we get all of the debated information. To "argue over words" is not the way to a "happy" conversation. But the discussion is productive if just one person walks away with a lighter heart.
My apologies for calling you Jim. I have seen Ehrman on video. His manner of speaking is quite inflexible with regard to variants. It is Ehrman who is basing his agnostic beliefs on variants, not me. I could not care less about variants that make no difference in the actual meaning of Biblical manuscripts. Here is one such brief video of Ehrman.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_EHDMVLXGw
At no point did I backtrack regarding Ehrman. He is a distinguished scholar, by virtue of having specialized in his field and having produced a number of publications. That does not mean I agree with him. As for your assertion that an education in religious studies is the only thing that qualifies me to discuss these matters, well, that is--to quote my brother, who does have a PhD. from a highly ranked Bible college, is "just plain crap."
Yes, I do know that the original manuscripts were not written in Aramaic. Aramaic writings came later. Nevertheless, it is helpful for historians to understand the language. I looked at the site you sent me. Thank you. My source for issues about variants, and the number of them that even matter is Craig A. Evans. Anyone can YouTube him debating with Ehrman.
Bruce M. Metzger is another excellent NT Scholar. He died in 2007.again, Ehrman does NOT base his agnosticism on the variants. I've read all about Evans - including a scathing review from Stephen Patterson on his book that you seem so interested in. I find it funny.
Ehrman actually studied under Metzger, so I've read some of their collaborative work. I'm not saying that you have to be a bible scholar to study this stuff, you can certainly read - however - saying one scholar is "wrong" because he claims a large number of variants because another scholar says that there are only 49 (which seems to be an absurd number from someone who HAS studied in the field and has seen corroboration on Ehrman's number from numerous sources - including those who have a bias in the other direction) working in the field and having a degree in New Testament scholarship or ancient languages can come in handy for finding out the truth. I don't just accept Ehrman's numbers, nor do I accept Evan's. When two scholars (one with a bias according to you in the wrong direction, and the other with a clear bias in the opposite direction) disagree by this margin, it helps to research it for oneself.
Certainly you are not required to agree with everything any scholar says - but with no basis of understanding the other position or reading their written works, I'm not arrogant enough to assume that someone is WRONG without a lot of research on my own. Like 15 years worth.
JM, if I have over-reached with regard to my statement about Ehrman and his variants, then that is “my bad.” I previously provide a link for anyone to view for themselves on (Ehrman debating with Craig Evans) which featured Ehrman arguing about variants, which seemed to make no difference to the actual meaning of Biblical manuscripts. Evans argument was not included.
As for Stephen Patterson, he is a member of the Jesus Seminar, which is enamored with the Gospel of Thomas. The Seminar's findings have been criticized for their habit of ignoring 1st century Jewish cultural context in favor of their bias toward non-canonical texts. Actually, this criticism is only one of many, primarily because the Jesus Seminars have a predetermined bias against canonical sources. And then there’s that strange (bead) system of voting for what is historically accurate and what is not. My understanding is that approximately one third of the members are scholars, though not necessarily all distinguished scholars. Some of them have never written a publication, and there are some who teach at community colleges.
Consequently, if Stephen Patterson issues a scathing review on Evans, who is a distinguished historian with integrity, then I can hardly be impressed by Patterson’s criticism. I am surprised that you mention him, as you regard your education so highly – surely you realize that many of the Jesus Seminar members are regular lay people who are unpublished. The Jesus Seminars also give historical evidence a wide berth, by bringing documents from one generation into another without necessarily giving 1st century historical manuscripts the context and regard they deserve. For anyone else who is interested, the Seminar works from the premise and bias that Jesus was a sage --nothing more. The Seminar believes that Jesus was not resurrected, that he had another human father, who may not have been Joseph, and so on. Many other scholars disagree with or reject their methodology for "findings" outright.
For further reading, Bruce M. Metzger addresses the issue of why a good historian cannot have a bias against canonical sources (which the Seminar does) in favor of non-canonical sources, if one is to understand the accuracy of 1st century biblical manuscripts and how they apply to the life of Jesus and the apostles, within the proper time frame. Another author who addresses this issue is Craig Blomberg. Anyone can Google these authors or find their work on Amazon.I guess that's part of the difference. While I don't necessarily agree with the findings of the Jesus seminar, I tend to not write off scholars just because of their participation in something that I may not wholly agree with. I said the review was scathing and interesting and it was, and I think Patterson made some decent points.
I don't just seek out scholars that I agree with, and I can't think of a single scholar that I agree with completely across the board. Does that mean the entirety of their work should be tossed out or disregarded? Not if you're interested in finding truth and being intellectually honest.
The rest of your straw man rant against the jesus seminar, which was not even a part of this conversation, was fun to read though.
JM, you assume wrongly that I throw the baby out with the bath water. Additionally, you know as well as I that bringing up the Jesus Seminar and Patterson's relationship with them IS intellectual honesty. The truth is that I wish you and everyone on this forum well. As long as we are all searching for the truth with intellectual honesty, we are doing the right thing.
do you not, therefore, assert that your opinions are the "right" ones, and that by default, all others are wrong? have you not mentioned hell as a fate for those that disagree with your interpretation of scripture? Is that intellectually honest to condemn others who have done just as much research, college study and reading and reached different conclusions?
Me arrogant? Heavens no. But I feel it to be a bit arrogant to believe that your studies make you a better candidate for biblical discussion. could get you confused? Don't you remember... think more highly of yourself than you ought? Lean not unto your OWN understanding...???
JM, t I've never mentioned hell--ever. Nor do I condemn others for their beliefs. I simply lay out the research I have discovered, primarily based upon knowledge gained from peer-respected historians, who consistently adhere to historical research with a high degree of integrity.
My favorite cousins is an atheist. Many people I am acquainted with are agnostic. I respect their right to believe as they wish. Likewise, I have the right to debate so that others may discover another side to the argument and decide for themselves.
However, I will and have called out bullies from time to time. Throughout my life, I've always tried to defend people who are being treated badly. That's why I called out getitrite, and entered into this discussion in the first place.
According to your logic you must also think that there is a possibility that Rumpelstiltskin exists? No atheist is threatened by Rumpelstiltskin so why should they invest energy into debunking a thing that they know doesn't exist. I believe that in the back of all atheists' mind that they believe it is a possibility that God exists even if they think so subconsciously.
Look it up in the dictionary. It's to deceive the mind. I will admit that I believe some Christians are deluded when they refuse to condemn something in the Bible which is obviously against what Jesus is. For example, Jesus said those who live by the sword die by the sword but how many instances are there in the Bible where it says God orders to the Israelites to go to war?
According to your intellectual honesty God may exist. So if Christians believe in God how can you believe they are all deluded?No, that is not in the back of an atheist's mind, no matter how much you want to believe it is.
The point is that your God is no different than Rumpelstiltskin from an atheist perspective, there is no evidence for their existence You yourself most likely do not believe Rumpelstiltskin exists, yet you believe your God exists despite the fact both have no evidence for existence other than words in a book. No one needs to invest any time in debunking the existence of Rumpelstiltskin because no one claims he exists.So you know the minds of ALL atheists? It's not that there is a lack of evidence of God. It's just that atheists do not know how to interpret that evidence. For example hypothetically speaking, if someone from deepest darkest Africa knew absolutely nothing about radiation got sick from exposure they would never even think it was radiation because they do not understand how radiation works.
I don't see you complain about Rumpelstiltskin all the time. You complain about Christians yet you fail to see they are all not the same. What do you achieve by interacting with Christians here? Absolutely nothing! So why waste your time?I know where you are going with this. I don't think there is anyone on the face of this earth, unless they are schizo, etc, that claims to have a personal relationship with Rumpelstiltskin.
I fail to see how that differs from someone having a personal relationship with Christ. They are the same, as they are both fictional characters, written about only within the pages of fairy tales. Popularity of an idea is irrelevant in determining the veracity of any assertion....
So your desperate pleading that the "majority of people believe, therefore it's not crazy" is illogical.
It's still crazy.Just b/c *you fail to see it doesn't mean it's not true... it just means you failed to see it. You are loved by someone you failed to notice, nonetheless.
But could it also mean that it is un-true, whether I fail to see it or not? Does it always have to be true? Is there anything I am to regard as really false.....then? Am I to, ultimately, lose all faith in my discerning faculties, and presume that I have no mechanism by which to discern truth?
Is that someone Rumpelstiltskin? I do fail to see such a character, although, maybe you can see him, with your special vision. And maybe he loves you. But why would he love you? Could you show me how I can magically see him like you do? Thanks
Jesus is a historical figure. That is even conceded by atheists. Do you believe someone who says they have a personal relationship with Rumpelstiltskin are sane for mentally well? Do you believe those who claim to have a personal relationship with Christ are insane or mentally unwell? I don't think, for example, there is a nuclear scientist out there that would ever believe they could enter a relationship with Rumpelstiltskin.
You are claiming to have a personal relationship with someone who may or may not have lived and died 2000 years ago? Are you sure this relationship is not a product of your mind? Ask yourself if Jesus can give you any information that your own mind doesn't already have? Does he talk to you or does he just make you feel good about your own actions?
You contradict yourself when you say Jesus is a historical figure. If so, he is long dead, hence it isn't possible to have a personal relationship with a dead guy.
Wow. Yep, you're going to... that place I don't believe in. But if I did believe in it, I would know you were going there..
The dead are cold and lifeless because they just want somebody to love. :>
You assume a person just has a physical body. The spirit lives on in death.
Sorry, but there is no evidence of that. It is you who is making an assertion.
Besides, one cannot have personal relationship with a spirit, by definition.
Personal:
- of, relating to, or affecting a particular person
- carried on between individuals directly <a personal interview>
- relating to the person or body</a>
spir·it (sprt)
n.
1.
a. The vital principle or animating force within living beings.
b. Incorporeal consciousness.
2. The soul, considered as departing from the body of a person at death.
3. Spirit The Holy Spirit.
4. A supernatural being, as:
a. An angel or a demon.
b. A being inhabiting or embodying a particular place, object, or natural phenomenon.
c. A fairy or sprite.
5.
a. The part of a human associated with the mind, will, and feelings: Though unable to join us today, they are with us in spirit.
b. The essential nature of a person or group.
6. A person as characterized by a stated quality: He is a proud spirit.Yes, I understand the definitions, just as I understand the definitions of leprechauns, unicorns and the boogieman. So what? Just because those words are defined in a dictionary doesn't mean they actually exist, Claire. That would be insane.
in·sane (n-sn)
adj.
1.
a. Of, exhibiting, or afflicted with insanity.
b. Characteristic of or associated with persons afflicted with insanity: an insane laugh; insane babbling.
c. Intended for use by such persons: an insane asylum.
2. Immoderate; wild: insane jealousy.
3. Very foolish; absurd: took insane risks behind the wheel.The purpose of me giving the definitions of spirit had nothing to do with the existence of those beings. I am trying to tell you that the definition a spirit is an animating thing which you don't being.
And, I was trying to show you that the definition of spirit is as irrelevant as the definition of other things that have never been shown to exist.
It doesn't matter if they exist it not. The point is that you didn't give the whole definition for spirit.
But if he was the son of God, there should be a mountain of documentation throughout history. But all we have are desperate Christians trying to make something out of nothing, from one source.
That's only the historical person, which has nothing to do with the fictional person.
No they are not mentally well. It could either be a temporary disconnect from reality, or something more serious.
Religion is a brain disorder, but not a genetically based neurological disease. And in some cases it can be cured, because I was once a believer. Furthermore, If the conditions that promote this delusion(indoctrination) were eliminated, there would be an instant "cure"
Because they are smart enough to know that a real person can't spin straw into gold.
But are you suggesting that it would be logical for those same scientist to believe that a man can raise himself, and others, from the dead?
There are extra-biblical sources. One was a Roman historian Tacitus who wrote:
"Christus, the founder of the [Christian] name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius. But the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time, broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, by through the city of Rome also." Annals XV, 44"
Of course it is only the historical person. They wouldn't be atheists if they conceded Jesus was the son of God.
.
You are an atheist who was once a believer that still is not at peace with his situation.
So why do we have some brainy scientists that are Christian?? It is not logical to believe in the resurrection. That is beyond human abilities and thus it was a supernatural act.I think Tacitus was the equivalent of a contemporary tabloid writer. Hence, most of his "history" was probably just made up..
No. I am at peace with my situation. I just don't understand why people still believe in such silly childish primitive foolishness. I have NO DOUBT that your beliefs are pure delusion. That has long been settled. My mind is content, as it is guided by intellect, and not by neurotic fear. I laugh at the concept of a Holy Spirit....which I am not suppose to ever blaspheme. I hereby commit blasphemy by declaring the Holy Spirit a silly joke, played on uber gullible minds, filled with anxiety and fear.
Sometimes highly intelligent people are prone to mental illness. Their mental illness is separate from their remarkable aptitude. Tesla had OCD, and would walk around a building 3 times before entering. He also refused to touch round objects.
Resurrection never happened, because we live in nature....even Jesus....and in nature this never happens. If you want to live in an alternate universe, where the supernatural is common, then you will have to move to another location, as that doesn't happen in our realm."I think" and "probably" are the antithesis of evidence.
There is no doubt that a man calling himself Jesus and claiming to be the son of God was a real historical figure. It's just that logical, rational people see him for the cheap imitation of Apollonius of Tyana that he was.Sometimes highly intelligent people are prone to mental illness. Their mental illness is separate from their remarkable aptitude.
Thank you for each illustration.And, if they have a mental illness, they most likely will use their intelligence to admit it and seek professional help. It is those who lack intelligence that don't admit to their mental illness and don't seek professional help, but instead embrace their religious beliefs ad nauseum.
Yes, you think that but he was an historian! Historians don't write something as a fact when it is just hearsay. You have absolutely no basis on what you have just claimed.
I really do feel sorry for you that you have never experienced the love God bestows on those who love Him. He even works through others to bestow love on non believers. I know you don't want to believe you are not at peace. It would take some serious soul searching. It's just much easier to say the Holy Spirit is a silly joke.
So all theists have a mental illness??? LOL! I wonder what makes atheists have OCD>
Yes, in nature it doesn't happen but I'm talking about the supernatural which you assume does not manifest itself in this dimension. I didn't know you know of alternate universes where the supernatural is common? How did you know this?
Sorry, but that's a totally naïve way of thinking.
Thanks for setting me straight. But I would like to remind you that History is written from the point of the Victor, or from the perspective of the culture writing it.
Trust me...I have seen the "love"
Then He's not doing a very good job. Taking away freedoms, and discouraging free thought is NOT love.
That's because the Holy Spirit is absolutely silly. Why would anyone be gullible enough to fall for such simple childish trickery?
You are the one who introduced the term "supernatural" into the conversation, hence you are the one who has to prove that it exists in some realm, not me. Maybe somewhere the supernatural does exist, but until you prove this, I can only put it in the realm of the imagination.
Tacitus clearly made the distinction between history and superstition. He believed that Christians were superstitious for believing in Jesus being the son of God but did not dispute Jesus' crucifixion under Pontius Pilate. It's kind of like the Nazis were a historical fact but it was a superstition to believe they were Satanists.
Christianity was not the victor when Tacitus existed. He lived between 55 - 120 A.D. Constantine reigned between 306–337 and it was only during his tenure that Christianity became the dominant religion.
So what proof do you have that Tacitus was a tabloid writer? You can't just say things about historical figures without proof.
Tell me more.
Who says that God works through people who take away freedoms and free thought? That's not an act of love.
In your case, you are trying to tell yourself it is silly so that you do not have to have the onus of being a Christian who has the responsibility to truly witness for Jesus.
How do I prove the supernatural? I'm encouraged to see that you think it is a possibility God exists even though you think the idea is silly.
ALL atheists lack a belief in God, which is the point.
Yes, there is a lack of evidence for the existence of God, that is a fact.
That is entirely false and you know it.
So what? We could easily find out, your point is moot.
That is because we know he's a myth and so do you.
So what? That has nothing to do with evidence of God's existence and actually shows there is no evidence, if there was, Christians would all agree.
Why are you wasting your time writing nonsense about God?They may believe in God but there can be a seed of doubt in the back of their minds.
Oh, I didn't know it is a fact that God doesn't exist?
It is true what I say. Jesus is knocking on the door of your heart but you can't hear it.
So who's to say God won't ever be considered a fact later on? There will be no doubt with the second coming of Christ.
How many people claim to have a personal relationship with Rumpelstiltskin?
You think that all Christians are trouble makers and deluded, right? Evidence tends to be interpreted differently due to people's level of understanding.
Don't turn it on me now. Answer my question.Yes, I'm sure that's what you want to believe, despite the fact it isn't true.
Reading comprehension problems. Please read that again.
Sorry, but many of us don't hear the same voices in our heads that you do.
Yes, I understand you believe in those myths and superstitions, and really, really, really want to believe they'll come to pass.
How many people claim to have personal relationships with other gods? Millions.
Ah, the No True Scotsman fallacy. And, of course, YOUR interpretation is correct.And you speak for all atheists?
Okay, so there is a lack of evidence of God's existence but it isn't a fact? So there is room for God maybe existing?
I didn't know you were a psychiatrist, either? Wow. Who needs to visit a psychiatrist when I can get a free diagnosis on line by you?
It was once considered a scientific fact that the sun revolved around the earth. It is only because of evidence later that disproved it. You are in for a nasty shock.
And who's to say that they don't have relationships with them? Satan can pose as many gods.
If I interpret evidence with what the Bible says Jesus is about then I don't see how it cannot be the incorrect interpretation.
And, of course, you ALWAYS ignore this question of mine. You are silently conceding that I'm right:
What do you achieve by interacting with Christians here? Absolutely nothing! So why waste your time?Atheists lack belief in gods, that is the point.
As much room for existing as leprechauns and unicorns.
Sorry, but that is false, it was never a scientific fact. Please do not make up things to support your irrational beliefs.
And, everyone else is wrong. LOL.
Atheism is on the rise, it is the result of speech, just like the speech on these forums. Obviously, there is no reasoning with the unreasonable, like yourself. But, others reading these forums will observe your behavior and see the ridiculous things you write, which is what it's all about.But do you know what goes on in their minds? Can you say for a fact that there is some doubt? Getitrite has doubt.
I don't think that is in the league of God. I think the worship of leprechauns could never be a world religion.
Correction. It was believed that the sun revolved around the earth.
Yes he can.
It's kind of like you thinking your interpretation of life is correct entirely. Nothing you say or think,could possibly be wrong.
Yes, atheism is on the rise thanks to a clearly laid out plan of the 19th century. Atheists here already think Christians are ridiculous. Your comments aren't proving things they don't already think. Other Christians won't definitely consider what you say seriously because of how you treat them. In fact, Christians probably are put off by atheists. They may tend to think all atheists are rude and condescending. You will never deconvert a Christian. So therefore you should not waste your time. You aren't achieving anything. And imagine spending a significant time in your day saying the same thing over and over again. At least I offer another perspective that other people may never had considered before.Well, the mind is a terrible thing to waste. But leaning toward finite knowledge and understanding is also on the rise. The bible predicted that too.
If they say the don't believe, then they don't believe in gods. How much more clear can that be?
Yet, that is exactly how we view your belief in God, the same way you view leprechauns, expect we use the word reality instead of 'league of God'.
And, like many beliefs, they are shown to be wrong.
Sorry, I have no interpretation of life, reality does that for me.
That is because Christians behave ridiculously,.
Of course, despite the fact they will tell us we will fry for an eternity.
That would fly in the face of the fact many who were Christians before have deconverted.
Yet, atheism is significantly on the rise. Christians will soon be a minority.
Sure there is a difference between God and Rumpelstiltskin, while both are imaginary figments of the imagination, of the two some think one is real. Can you imagine someone knocking on your door and trying to tell you the truth about Rumpelstiltskin? Well Claire, you are at the door knocking and trying to convince people that Rumpelstiltskin is factual and if we don't believe as you do we will burn in hell. Us Atheists are here help those with that delusion, we understand it's too late for some, but perhaps we can help just one.
It's that simple.
Wow!!! Just imagine the OUTRAGE if someone started a 'Christians, what the hell is your problem?' forum. Just think about that for a second. I can see the words that'd be flying like daggers: religious persecution, God haters, Satan influenced, bully, bully, bully, (a lot of bully I bet) just to name a few. Sure looks like someone is picking a fight here but I could have it totally wrong...
Oh, and it's also very funny (but not so much) that when there is a forum started about 'Atheists, what the hell is your problem?' people (Christians?) respond with "Hey, thanks for sticking up for us!"
I SEROUSLY doubt that would ever fly well if it were the other way around.
I'm an atheist, Ranzi and I understand your feelings. I've run into the atheists you're talking about and it's rarely pleasant. It's almost as if they are so angry that others believe in something that they feel they must "enlighten them."
Sometimes, however, these atheists are acting out because believers, often a friend or family member - pulls that old "I'll pray for you stunt" that puts them on the spot.
My hope is that we all all agree to disagree. If it works for you - or anyone - I'm happy for you. Whether that belief be Christian, pagan, Muslim or Hindi - who am I to tell you what you must leave behind?Well put. I could not agree with you more. This is exactly the view that all people should have.
"or you can't bear that their life holds a purpose, while you live yours lost. Or is it that you take pride in converting them into your world of depression and no hope?"
Sounds an awful like you bullying atheists here, calling their lives sad and hopeless. If you can't even refrain from being hypocritical, why are you making this argument in the first place?
Christians are not bullied. I'm sorry, they are not. They are the majority religion, and (unfortunately) many of our politicians in power choose to vote and make laws based on that religion, unconstitutional as it is.
I have no problem with the idea of Christians, and most Christians I know are normal people, just as most atheists are normal people. But the fact is, there are a lot of Christians that actively want to persecute the lives of others in a way that is simply not comparable to an atheist ragging on the historical (and logical) inaccuracies of the Bible. There's nothing wrong with any belief if it isn't hurting others, but a lot of conservative Christians do have beliefs that hurt others.
I don't have to respect anyone who is telling me that I'm going to hell. Or anyone that hurts women, gay people, people of other religions and atheists because of their beliefs.
Granted, I don't see why people can't have common courtesy and respect, especially when dealing with issues that are important to some people, like religion. But most alleged "bullying" that Christians receive is just so laughable compared to actually oppressed minority groups. In a public forum, yeah, people are going to debate and disagree, and they are allowed their opinions. Religion can be critiqued, as well as scientific theories. If your faith is that strong, it shouldn't hurt you anyway, and who knows, maybe participating in debates will expand your way of thinking a little.Also this whole thing is silly. None of you should be talking because none of you have taken the time to listen or consider the opposing views here please keep all your rubbish to yourself. Christian or atheist you sound like a bunch of hateful people pushing a agenda.
And being hateful and insulting is a great way to make threads more tolerant and life-affirming.
no this thread should have been ignored this person clearly was not wanting a real response. If I were to ask someone "why they are so stupid" I would not expect them to start listing off reasons. although it would be kind of funny to see that happen it's not likely lol.
Really? So, it is actually the atheists who are pushing an agenda? Atheists are forcing something down Christians throats? Do you actually think atheists would say a word if not for Christian bigotry and hatred?
Well Said Ranzi... But hey.. as the old adage says... Misery Loves Company right?
They have NO God... Who allows them to do and say whatever they want... so long as it is contrary to an existent God... so they want to serve their own Ego God by making everyone else to worship their same Self Created Ego-Non-God.. With that, they are Pushy.. and they are far worse in pushing their rights of Disbelief than those who have a God and are comfortable in their Faith.Yes, that is certainly the atrocious behavior we've come to expect from so-called "loving" Christians.
Are you forgetting that Christians pushed their beliefs on innocent school children for years, and they still have not stopped. Putting religious quotes on our money....making people swear on a stupid book in a public court....changing the words in the Pledge by inserting a silly religious phrase....trying to teach Intelligent Design in school....voting against equal rights.....protesting at abortion clinics....and funerals.....going door to door to spread the "good news".....thanking God at award ceremonies.....
Comfortable in their beliefs?! How absurd
Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and lack thereof. The problem begins when people want to place their own religious views onto the government, when you want certain laws to be enacted or ban because they go "against your religious beliefs". That's where the problem lies;when your only excuse is that your bible or any religious text, is the only excuse you have. This goes on everywhere. From the religious radical groups from the middle east who believe women should not get an education, to the many victims who are threatened and killed because all they want is independence from an oppressive religion they do not believe in, all they way to a community who can not marry the ones they love because an ancient texts tells them it's abomination.
When religion is used to oppress,discriminate and spread hate, that's when atheists have to speak up and be vocal. If religious people don't want to be told about the flaws and lies within their own religion, then they shouldn't try to shove it down peoples throats.The answer to your question is IN your question. "Atheists, what the HELL is your problem?". The issues that a lot of atheists have (Based on my conversations with some of them) isn't really God (which they don't believe in), nor is it really the belief in God (which some of them are more curious about than anything as to why people still believe). Their main problem is in their equally (and even more so) vitriolic Christian counterparts beating them over the head with scripture, calling them evil, satanic, ignorant, etc.., and telling them they're going to hell all the while proclaiming they're saved by grace according to the very bible that some of them don't even follow the principles for salvation of. Am I letting the atheists off the hook or their comments about believers being delusional, psychotic, hypocritical, etc...? Not at all. But the biggest issue is that by virtue of Christians professing belief in God and the bible, they are held to a higher standard of behavior as we are bound by that belief in what the bible says we are to treat others.. Unfortunately, given the history of the behavior of some of the more radical ones, the expectations of that standard has been greatly diminished except by those same vocal minority Christians that try to enforce their beliefs on unbelievers as well as believers that disagree with them. If more on both sides practice the "live and let live" philosophy, then there would be less conflict
I think God mongers deserve every atheist to poke into their beliefs because over the years, they have denied others the peace of not believing. Am not an atheist, but its okay that what we believe in is challenged even if it affects kids. So I think they have not even gone far enough.
It seems to me that for some people belief, relion, whatever one wishes to call it became a kind of "bargain".. I will believe in you if you do ABC" --- when ABC doesn't happen, in a kind of childish response the person will FIX G-d by becoming an atheist. And not just someone who doesn't believe but a fanatical proselytising fanatical atheist.
This sounds like the typical make believe of the radical theists. Did you actually read what you wrote - that atheists will reasonably conclude that God does not exist (because the ABC promised them didn't happen) and will thus FIX God by becoming atheist?
While failure to maintain a bargain often results in anger (and perhaps the fanatical proselytizing you mention), it would be foolish in the extreme to think one could FIX a make believe god by any means at all, let alone proselytizing to others.Well what about "labeling" the "make-believe" a murderous, childish, rape okay-er, and starving children neglecter??? By the way, are you doing enough for your children and the poor??? I think someone forgot to ask you.
Notice that Cgenaea is compelled to detract from the question at hand so that she doesn't have to explain anything.
So you actually even understand the term?
The question remains, did she learn this technique from Beth or did Beth learn it from her?
All too often the proper label for such a person is "Christian", or "Believer".
Not at all sure I'm catching the connection between labeling someone and the idea that anyone with even half a brain would decide to "FIX" an imaginary creature by becoming atheist. Can you elucidate that connection, please?
Yep - I do enough for my children and the poor. Do you? And can you explain that connection as well?Hmm, let's see... the tooth-fairy is a whore!!! Lmao!! felt like Tourette's. Does it feel like that when you label a figment?
No connection with the last question; it was asked of me in such a way... and since we speak often, I just wondered about you. No one else seemed concerned about your children and poor people around you.You know, if you have a problem with something I said, it should likely be me you address.
Jumping on somebody who didn't say anything because you are pissy about someone else saying something is passive-aggressive at best... bullying and cowardice at worst.I don't have a "problem" with anything that occurs here. I simply got the urge to concern myself with the goings-on of my fellow poster since you know... we do that. I figured that you must've forgotten to ask him. Wanna spread the love too.
Ah, but he wasn't involved in the conversation about neglect.
Why not include him? We are all having these conversations. Are you biased? Does Wilderness or ATM belong in a different category? If so, why? If not, why does it matter that you did not ask him directly? Can we not each be the same neglectful? Could you? (being so busy dusting undersides of dressers...)
Nope, I was just addressing you. I have a very specific reason, but your heart is too hard to hear it.
Well there's more than one way to skin a cat... just try to prove your specific point another way
But if your point is only proven to me, what kind of bull is that? We are all on an even keel...yes??? Or is it that only I deserve your concern. awwwww... bout ta b honoredActually, it was simply my concern. I wasn't trying to prove a point. My concern was specifically for you.
I noticed that too.
I wondered why; but then I realized that it does not matter. I know THAT for sure...You know, I once had a really stressful life. I mean I still do, but once it was really bad.
I loved my husband but we were having issues. I loved my kids, but it was damn hard to take care of them. My then youngest little boy was very ill and had been since he was born.
I was tired and angry, but mostly I was just lonely.
I had been going to a site, it was a game site... nothing big but something to pass a little bit of time. It wasn't the game that got me though, it was the forums. You would think since I was lonely that it would be the happy threads that drew me, but it wasn't. It was the ARGUMENTS. An entire group of people who I could argue with whenever I wanted. And I would win too... and enjoyed how clever it made me feel to get one up on someone else. First it was a few minutes a day, then a few hours, then I was constantly checking for replies. Waiting until someone said something, just so I could argue.
God it felt good.
My kids would come in and ask for me... I'd say "Just a minute" and maybe 15-20 minutes later I'd wonder out and take care of whatever they needed... then I'd be back on the computer.
40-50 posts a day... not a problem. Every one of them sarcastic and nasty.t
My kids were fed, my youngest son was taken care of... less and less by me but still taken care of.
I pulled away emotionally from my husband, from my kids... to that wonderful place where I could get out all my hostility and say what I wanted to say.
Anyway, it didn't last too long in the grand scheme of my life. Only about a year. A year that I did what was necessary for the kids but spent hours arguing in forums.
The husband went... I didn't really care all that much. I just had more to argue about.
A couple weeks after he left I got a phone call from him. Then I went to the hospital just in time to tell them to stop doing CPR on my son.
Now, what I see in you is a mom of a young child who is spending hours a day typing arguments into a forum. God can take them anytime. Any time.
Figure out your priorities... you only have so many minutes.I love that you shared that. I am all about being real and true. But don't you feel all of that applied to all of us? I don't see her c'gna on here any more than any of us. Something drives us all here. We are all coping with something.
I didn't care about all of us. It was her that caught my attention.
I see something in her that reminds me of that time. Maybe it's the anger... maybe it's the need to constantly be right. The fact that she's talking but not listening. Most of the others here are having fun... she seems to NEED this.Something tells me that you have a need. I see many. You tell me your story (no I won't call it "irrelevant" as you might've) to humble me into belief that you have seen through me and realize my "need" to get off the computer and "play" hmmmm but what else could be your motivation...?
I analyze too...My motivation is that you don't go through what I did. I want that year back. So much it hurts. I don't want you to feel the same way one day. I want that year back for the ones that have grown and almost grown, not just the one I lost.
Like I said, I see something of who I used to be in you. I wish I'd have had someone to tell me.I know exactly what you see in me that you used to see in you; but it's not neglect. However, there is no chance for me of regret for the time spent here. Trust me. Maybe your feeling is really a concern you have projected onto me... my clue: specifically for Genaea. Seems like a bullet with a name.
I understand your situation but what does that have to do with me? Specifically??? You don't want all to benefit from your year of neglectful behavior to get one over on someone?
If you think that I'm just trying to get over on you, you really do have my sympathy.
That phrase was borrowed from you. And I believe you were referring to YOUR "past" behavior. Your motivation for neglecting your children was getting one over... remember???
Please, save your sympathy, you may need a surplus one day. Thanks anyway.No, my motivation for neglecting my children was that I was angry and lonely. Getting over on other people was just my way of coping with it.
I think (now this is just my opinion) that you are still angry and alone. When I encountered you initially, it was like watching toxic poison swirl to the sky. Just one freakishly foul statement after another. Snarky in the flesh. You have evolved a bit. Now, it is more mind-freak. But at least a bit calmer. The "plea" is well-appreciated thanks. But I'm alright. Please reflect. I will too.
No, it doesn't feel like Tourette's when I label a figment, perhaps because I don't label figments as anything other than a figment. I'll leave that to the theists, labeling their many gods with all the things they would like to see in themselves.
I see - no connection but a new topic to discuss. If you really want to discuss my children (I won't, in a public forum, except to say they're great kids) or the poor in Idaho you should probably start a new thread.
It's not that the bargain makes one angry and bitter, it's an indication that no one is there. One doesn't become angry with God, one understands that there is no God.
The discontent is not against God, but rather against people who tell these lies to people. It is lyars who should be FIXED.....there are no Gods to FIX. If someone tried to sell you some land that didn't exist, would you be angry at the land(that doesn't exist)or the person that tried to trick you into buying it?
- Emile Rposted 11 years ago
0I think you went a little far with the title. Not all atheists have the problem you refer to. Most atheists don't. The ones who frequent hub pages in the manner you find irritating simply appear to enjoy it. I doubt it goes deeper. If it does, it isn't apparent in their arguments.
I don't know the "history" of this question for this forum but I do know we should accept each other as we are and that includes religion. I do not have to live the atheist's life and he doesn't have to live mine. Let him have his beliefs or non-beliefs, and I will have mine. Live and let live. Love one another, even the atheist
I have been suspecting bad religious upbringing which was forced upon them, (too many raps on the knuckles.) They are eternally rebelling and using this platform to do so. (If they are not being paid to bring down America.)
In God We Trust!You, smugly, say that as if that is not a valid reason to despise religion. I think it shows dignity to fight back against a tyrant, whose soul purpose is to take control of my mind, and cause me to act as a child for my entire life....by attempting to force me to believe in a silly fairy tale. That's like the slaves, going back to the plantation, after having the means to be free.
If Christians really trusted in God, they wouldn't look both ways when they crossed the street....but they always do. I wonder why?Christians get hit by cars too. lol
Maybe we trust that God will save our soul if they get smashed by a semi?Yeah, basically, you are saved from everything. You can't lose. If at anytime you are killed, you go to live with Jesus....which is the ultimate goal of every denomination that I have been exposed to. So why be careful......at all? Just trust God. This life doesn't matter anyhow. Paradise is in the next life.
ahhh... thanks Beth. Now we can get pack to sailing in our ships without a care in the world. Look at that flock of pelicans!
What a Beautiful day!Actually I'm glad it's not true, because although you think you would want to go live eternity with a monster like God, you really couldn't bare to be in the presence of someone that psychotic. Remember...He once drowned the entire planet, because He failed to create GOOD people. Poor defenseless humans paid dearly for His mistakes. Same with Adam and Eve.
Is it a bad thing to believe that there is something better then this world? Also from personal experience I have been hit by cars twice while jogging and told I would never walk normal again, but I am and I to this day still run 10 miles a week.so while you may say it is just luck I say maybe their is a higher power watching over us. Are we as humans really so cocky as to believe we are the greatest thing to ever live or exist in the universe?
Does it negatively affect you or your actions? Do you teach small children that a myth is true? Do you try to force others to believe OR to follow the edicts/morals of your personal god?
If your answer is "yes" to any of those questions then it is a bad thing.
That's nice that you were hit by cars and can still walk, but it is no reason to think a god reached down and touched such an insignificant speck as a human being. Are you really so cocky as to believe that you are important enough to draw a gods attention?Actually If I believed in a God I would say yes because as Christians I would that he created me as most religions do. As a artist I don't allow my art to be destroyed and if starts to become withered I refurbish giving it its beauty back so yeah, I would believe that. That's not cocky. Nor do I push any view I hold on anyone, my rights end where another persons begin.
We are God's artwork then? That's even more cocky and egocentric than thinking we're important enough to pay attention to!
Interesting post...
When did any Atheist ever say we are the greatest thing to ever live or exist in the universe? I've never seen such a claim as usually Atheists are the ones saying that humans are no better or no worse than any other animal.
You've been hit by cars twice and you think Gods looking out for you? I've been cycling and jogging my entire life and never been struck by a car. Dumb luck I guess.It could be dumb luck. I'm not trying to argue but when my leg goes from being a mangled mesh of bone and muscle to being perfect as far as a Dr. can see, then I am inclined to believe a little more then luck played a part whether it be magic, God, or me being a super human lol.
I am not saying that you have to agree with what im saying bc honestly sometimes I wonder if there is a "God " with all that's going on in the world and all that has happened but it is not my place to say that religion is fake, bc I have no proof that its not either.
All I am saying is listen hear and if someone is preaching then by all means tell them to shove it because I hate bible thumpers too. religion is a choice no one should feel forced into it. Or feel like they have been attacked for not being religious.
No it's not a bad thing at all.
You can say that all you want, however, until you present some proof, that's merely wishful thinking, and selfish. Why is the higher power not watching over the poor starving children in Africa, and the children in cancer wards? They are dying everyday. And there were two bicyclist killed here last week, when they were hit by a car.. They will never walk again. Where was this higher power? I guess He only intervenes in your life.
This is a straw man fallacy, as no one here has implied any such thing.I do not know. My grandmother and my uncle both died of cancer. My niece died before she was 2 from meningitis and my brother and his friend were killed by a drunk driver when I was 15. So I know how it feels to question a faith over loss and believe for many years I did but something just changed and that's all I am saying I feel we should respect everyone's personal opinion as long as they are sharing it peacefully and not cramming down our throats. Everyone of the billions of people on the planet have experienced circumstances that brought them to the ideals they now hold, I do not believe in a higher power because of my leg, I believe because of my life. and thank you for not responding rudely
Like anyone else, I would like to live with the security of knowing that there is something that cares about me, and that I am not just here to be the victim of randomness, however, there is absolutely no evidence for such a reality. I am not going to accept anything from the perspective of a whim or wishful thinking. That, to me, offers no fulfillment. But I do understand that some people are wired to circumvent logic, and embrace illogical superstitions, to gain a false sense of security, as any security will do....whether real or made up.
That's fine, religion is a outlandish thought, it leaves many questions the one most asked to me by many friends is where did these gods come from if they are real. a question that I myself can not answer. At the same time that is the definition of faith to most religious people faith is believing without the proof of seeing.
I am truly sorry for the action of any believer that has treated you wrongly for your beliefs. They are not acting as their god instructed he actually says not to judge for all have sinned and are not worthy of him and that anyone who condemns another person to hell will join them. So I am sorry for their ignorance of their own religion and hope that you can accept those who are not so vile.
So your God watches while you get hit by cars twice, fixes up your mangled legs, but is not watching out for your grandmother, uncle, niece, brother or his friend. So you are another person claiming miracles, I'd like to see the evidence.
yes if that's what you get from what I have said.
That is what I get from what you said. Perhaps that is what you should get as well.
well then you are sir are ignorant. All I am saying is that all people have their own reason for what they do believe in or don't. I am not a "Christian" but I am willing to listen. My point is to stop being selfish and consider that there is always a deeper meaning...
and if you dislike Christians so much for always telling you what to think and believe then how can you sit there and tell me what I should take away from what I say and to change my view? hmmmm contradictory a little? practice what you preach whether its religious or not.
Maybe it's as simple as being thankful, while understanding life makes no sense. It sure beats bitter asinine attacks because life stinks.
Oh my goodness, you've been thru hell. Im so sorry.
there is no need to be sorry it has been years and my family and I are strong. As sad as it was to lose them everyone must die eventually, and it allowed me to have a open mind.
Hmm. Rebelling, are they? Rebelling against what?
You asked earlier for a quote as to being browbeaten, well here is your answer. The rebelling atheists are rebelling against the browbeating from the theists, who claim the atheists are forever rebelling.No. It's almost my bedtime - if I take a nap I'll be up all night.
Besides, I need to recuperate from all the browbeating.I've heard it takes almost as much physical effort as bible-thumping.
Can I get you a drink?
Or are you going to call me names again, you know like you have... well like you have never done.
But I know you're thinking it... you big atheist bully you.
I've got to say that Christians irritate me much more than atheists do. As a Christian, all atheists can do is argue with me. Christians can make me embarrassed for my faith and angry that their behavior is driving people away from Christ in droves.
As far as the vitriol here on the forums, I have to say I find the Atheists, in general, far more pleasant to converse with. If anyone on these forums ever made me deny Christ, it wouldn't be them, it would be my utter humiliation at being put in the same group as the "persecuted" Christians...
Good thing I'm comfortable in my faith, a new convert or someone considering the faith would likely run screaming from many of the representatives of the faith on these boards.And as a side note to my post...
I would just like to say how impressed I am by the behavior of my sisters in Christ in this thread.
I'm simply waiting for "I know you are but what am I?" to wrap it up.
You all are truly full of the spirit of Christ... who argued on forum boards all the time...and spent so much time trying to prove he was right by flinging insults at those who didn't believe in him.
Please, do continue.Welcome to our bash, Melissa! Don't stand on the sidelines or anything... right when the pelicans are flying by... some seagulls too.
And look into the distance...
Shadows take form
Ships on the horizon,
A new day is born...
Why did he call me Mrs. Pot?I'm going to side with the atheists here. Only because they aren't specifically acting in a way contrary to everything they say they value.
Otherwise, both sides are behaving exactly like the other side... Christians are just violating the lessons in the Bible to do it... Since the atheists aren't held to those lessons, they aren't violating any of their so called personal ethics.
I would assume the Mrs. Pot had to do with pot vs. kettle. Look it up.Okay. Thank you for being the referee. I almost shot someone with a cloud of digital spittle!
Yet, you are here MelissaBarrett...flinging mud at your so called "Sisters in Christ" and aiding the atheist argument about a divided faith. I see their position and purpose, I understand their unbelief and anger. But you?! What's your purpose? You said "You all are truly full of the spirit of Christ... who argued on forum boards all the time...and spent so much time trying to prove he was right by flinging insults at those who didn't believe in him".
But your spending time here...again, what's your purpose? What is the "Spirit of Christ' showing or saying to you about what you're doing in this arena?I have no idea what the spirit of Christ is saying, and neither does anyone else in this thread.
I think though, that he might be happy that I'm not ruining his name and chasing people away from the faith by arsing myself in his name. I can do just fine arsing myself in my own name. At least by admitting that my own opinions are mine, instead of claiming some divine inspiration from Christ... it's not him I am shaming if I DO arse myself.
I also think he would be happy to know that I am not some bleating sheep going along with those who are screaming loudest and that, to some extent, I AM my brother's keeper. No one should be screaming louder about the horrible zealous, rude, self-righteous, judgmental, self-serving, embarrassing, ignorant behavior of some Christians than other Christians themselves. If none of them have backbone enough to do it, or WORSE if none of them believe there is anything wrong with it... then I thank God that at least the atheists are. In this, at least, I believe they are doing more good than the Christians in serving the spirit of Christ.
Any other questions?Is it true??? You are really Christian??? Hmmm.we know a tree by its fruit. You Christian for real???
Aren't Christians supposed to exhort each other? Or does that only work when you are the one doing the exhorting? What do you think your fruit says about you?
I will let the spirit of God speak for me... can you hear him???
Christians are not to exhort rudeness and vile vomiting lips. The things being said cut even me and I haven't even been on the receiving end.Nope. When I read your posts, I just hear you claiming to be spirit filled wanting to be right without The knowledge to back it up.
If you are speaking from the spirit and not just from yourself, ask the spirit what it would take for me to believe again. It's not a test. Your God wants everyone to follow him. I don't even know the answer to that question, but if your God knows everything, he does.Naturally speaking; the right to be gay without having to feel the fear or conviction of being "wrong"
Biblically, all you have to do is say yes. "Believing" I don't believe is your issue. Remember God does not do Vaudeville.what are you talking about? You think I'm an atheist and "reject" god because I'm gay? What are you smoking? Haven't you listened to anything I've ever said to you? THAT'S what the "spirit" told you? It sounds like it's what you told yourself. No spirit needed or required at all. Just your own prejudice.
I said it was my (naturally) opinion. Yes, I thought you were atheist because you are gay and feel unacceptable to God because of it. The spirit says all you must do is ask. Ask... reading the bible is only part of this faith. Living it is key. God really does take us as we are. Me and my filthy self... you and yours. Humility is also necessary. We be puffing ourselves up too much especially when we go ta readin'!!!
Smoking a Newport; btwIMO, what it all boils down to is that it doesn't feel right for you to believe in God... and likely it never did. That's not Satan or being gay or even logic... it's your, for lack of a better word, conscious.
There is absolutely nothing that could ever come from the outside that would change that.
No one can be forced to believe anything that's not of their heart? nature? self? Whatever the hell you want to call it.
You aren't looking for a reason to believe clandestinely nor are you looking for a reason to NOT believe. It's simply who you are.
No reasons required.
And you think too much of book knowledge. Lean not unto your own understanding... God is spirit. ONLY spirit can discern spirit.
I'm talking about the book of "knowledge" that you adhere to. I actually know it. You just read it, interpret it the way that you want to and claim absolute knowledge of its "truth". Yet you know nothing of its history, its origins or its makeup. That's called willful ignorance.
Not willful ignorance. Selective study. Since no one we know was there we MUST only decide whose version we prefer to breathe in. "Many false prophets will rise." Some of them will say, "that God shit aint shit; here's why...do we choose to breathe that? Some of us do.
If believing in Christ makes someone this negative and insulting, I can do without it.
Christ is not negative or insulting. Those who follow are not either.
However wrong cannot go unanswered. Injustice, judgment, insult and selfishness is running rampant. Even from those who say they are faithful. You may choose as you wish.I was not commenting on Christ but on you, and yes your comments about some people here have been very negative and kind of scary. I have read the Bible and I don't see you acting at all like Christ.
When a tree stops taking sunlight, it dies. If a person refuses to learn, doesn't want to learn, the same thing happens.
You can't know that kind of Christian by their fruits. A dead tree doesn't make any.Are you claiming to be one who follows Christ? A dead tree does not produce any fruit but the fruit that remains is all bruised and mushy; ugly and quite nasty. Yes???
Christians learn. But they have guidelines. Boundaries. God through Jesus has the final say.
I simply love your style. Beautifully put; 'm darn near floored.
- Beth37posted 11 years ago0
Are we having fun yet? It's a shame we can't talk about the things we have in common every once in a while. You know, on the other non-spiritual threads... you don't know who is a person of faith and who is not, for the most part. We're just ppl who talk about life. It's nice to relate to your peers. I wish we could do more of that sometimes.
It too tempting to be more than we are or less than we are on line. It will never be as you have described... its the nature of the beast.
Of course, only you and I represent ourselves honestly, Beth...
And I'm not so sure about you...
(Joking, joking... )That would be fine, however in your mind, you have already decided there are those who indeed have things in common with you, but since they don't share your beliefs, they are evil, you must hate them and they will burn in hell.
Notice how it is YOU who makes that distinction, which is the real shame of talking about things we have in common?
Atheists chill out seriously - these are the words you are using to describe people with faith
-delusion
-dishonesty.
-bigotry
- Evil
THIS IS PURE BULLYING
This forum was not created to prove religion exists or not, but rather why the disrespect and taking pride in trying to take away people's beliefs that brings them hope and peace of mind? Although I'm not a believer of a particular God myself,. I find your insults rude and disrespectful. And if a Christian said the same things to you, I would tell them the same thing?
This is what I'm talking about, you do have a HUGE problem. Each to their own (same goes for those annoying Christians calling out on microphones and threatening hell
Atheists now days seem to be more obsessed with God than the actual believers of God, as you spend your days and lives in forums talking about him.
STOP TRYING TO PROVE SOMETHING IS NOT RIGHT TO SOMEONE THAT MAKES THEM HAPPY. Whether you believe it's real or not. This goes both ways, for Christians and atheists. However I have noticed there's a huge atheists movement out there, with many fanatics going out of their way trying to prove God doesn't exist and calling Jesus is Evil. At my sisters Uni there's about a hundred of them handing out leaflets, posting on walls 'your God doesnt exists" and speaking on microphones. What are they getting out of trying to shatter peoples faith?
Why are you people so disrespectful about a man who was trying to teach about love and forgiveness? How is Jesus evil btw?
May I ask all of you one question? What is so bad or evil about the following? (I'm not trying to preach to you about Christianity as I can't call myself a Christian, but I respect Jesus the same way people would respect Buddha, as a great philosopher and guru)
This is for the people who keep calling Jesus evil -WHAT IS SO EVIL ABOUT THE FOLLOWING?
-Love each other
-Love your enemies
-let him who is without sin cast the first stone
-Forgive one another
-Judge not, and you not be judged
-ForgivenessThe fact that it comes from the same book that says:
- Racism is not only okay, but is mandatory
- Women are property and should always be submissive to all men
- Rapists must not be punished, but instead get to marry the girl they rape (unless the girl is already married, in which case the rapist pays her father, like, fifty bucks and the girl is sentenced to death)
- Slavery is absolutely essential and morally right, so if you're not a Hebrew, you'd better learn to like shackles
- Disobedient children, people who wear clothing made of multiple fabrics, and men who shave their beards are just a handful of people God says must be brought to the town square and killed ASAP
- Thou shalt not kill...unless they don't believe in God, in which case you put a cap in their ass before they breed and/or convert youYou should read the *entire Bible and have someone who has studied it extensively explain the things you don't understand.
Please, point out something I posted that is not, in fact, in the Bible.
I'll be waiting. And then I'll slap you in the face with the verse that proves you wrong.That is exactly what JM has been doing for you.
Beth,
I have read the bible multiple times. I hold a PHD in Biblical Studies and I must point out...For the most part...It is the Atheist who understands the bible correctly, based on what is taught in schools, and the Christian who has the problem with the understanding.
And I am not picking or anything to that nature, I am just pointing out my observations.You as well Melissa. I have been very busy as of late. I see you are still fighting the good fight.
You know... the life of a liberal Christian.
I come here because I can't yell at my children or husband. So it's this or climb a clock tower.I hear ya!
It will never cease to amaze me how sometimes it is the simplest things in life that can bring about peace and serenity to an otherwise hectic day.
Reading the bible muktiple times as well as a doctorate in the study of it implies that you read and fully understand the admonition to "lean not unto thine own understanding, but in ALL thy ways acknowledge him and he will direct thy path"??? Did he direct your studies? My bet is no. You???
And it would seem to me that you are making assumptions. Or you have read my profile and do not believe the same as I do. Either way. I understand completely what that means. I am curious as to if you understand " judge not less ye be judged. By the same measure that you judge, you shall also be judged"...Just to clear this up...If you are in anyway pointing out flaws in others, you will be held accountable to that same standard by God himself. So since we are under grace in todays time, we can rest assured that forgiveness for our own human errors can be readily forgiven in the simplicity of asking.
Christians are not to judge, they are to spread the Good News of the Kingdom of God (Straight from Jesus himself)...Last time I check, men are not the ones to hold another man accountable for his/her spiritual well-being, God takes care of that...Spreading the Good News does not include judging, condemning or assuming that another is not following God and is doomed to Hell...
And on a last note...Did God direct the writing of the bible? If so, then why did it need to be edited and revised by other men (assumed also directed by God) and why is there conflicting sections? Also...Just to note...Recent studies show that the New Testament was written around the early to mid-second (125-150 C.E.)century, with the exception of some of Paul's letters which were written between 56 and 64 C.E. give or take a few years. Also why is there Two different creation stories in the first two chapters of Genesis? Could it be because it wasn't written down until 1000-500 B.C.E. and was written by two different Schools of Thought...Yep...That would be the reason...Not one single author...but a compilation of writing from Multiple Jewish Schools of Theological thought.
And just a note...Biblical Studies and Theology are two different things. One deals with the text itself and the other deals with the beliefs based on the textJudgment is Gods alone. Here on Hubpages, we cannot see the behaviors of the persons on the other end. Until things get crazy. We may only go by what is typed. If you tell me that you have no faith in God; the chances are, biblically, that you have no place in heaven or the kingdom of God. Is that judgment or regurgitation? It is called judgment to thwart feelings of conviction. Somewhat a defensive stance. It takes the spotlight that God is shining internally and throws it onto the reporter in an attempt to not feel as convicted. That tactic is ages old, I'm sure
Interestingly enough. I have not once said that I have no faith in God..nor have I stated my personal believes in anyway in this thread.
Yes, I know. That part of the discussion was a simple scenario. It responded to your previous post regarding judgment. Remember??? In my scenario, it is not judgment. No judgment necessary. You ( my scenario being of course) actually told me that he/she does not believe. In the bible, that person has consequences. And I didn't make those up. It is written. We discuss the bible. We say what IT says.
Yeah I know. Study of the bible without God is simply study. You cannot understand the bible without the mind of Christ. You may not live its pages without faith. You may not come to know God without faith that he is.
The bible contains the pertinent information. God saw to that. He knows that those who want him will have him or spend their lives trying to. The people who wrote the bible are authentic scribes. The info rejected from the pages was not absolutely necessary. We know all we need to know to decide yea or nay. The squabble over who wrote/translated the bible is simply more deviation from scripture; and a way to justify indecisiveness.And the Majority of those who study the bible or make these type of "decisions" are Christians....The Atheist doesn't decide what is or isn't contained in the bible or any of the such. They just ask for clarification for bible verses and the meaning. Sadly, very few Christians can offer this service.
Bible knowing "Christian" here. What may I help you to understand more clearly? Now dont go asking me about no edited versions left out; I read, and understand what actually made it into the final edition. So, no one biblical studies Phd holder is capable of understanding it better. (Not even two
) I put my heart into it. My HEAD is totally incapable. You need God's head.
Go!You know the bible? Or you know your beliefs based from the bible? They are two different things.
Question on the bible...Who is the author and in what year was the Book of Mark written, Who was the authors intended audience and why is this information important in understanding the message contained within the Book of Mark.
Question on your beliefs based from the bible...If the bible is based on divine guidance from God...Explain why Jesus said the Law would not go away, yet Paul says it isn't required and we are under grace now.
We will start here and see where we end up. I am sure there are many who are interested in hearing these answers. I will ask more later based on your responses.As for your first question: You're reaching
I know both.
As far as The Law that Jesus spoke off: It WILL never go away. The spiriit of God knows the law and abides. We ARE under grace now. Flesh has a way of blinding us who depend on God. We fal. Then we remember... are forgiven; and we keep depending.
I have no idea about the year that Mark was written. I was NOT there. And I don't think any of my friends were either. That sort of rhetoric is built for the knowledgeable. But the Bible says to tell of his goodness. I do that. And no... the year the bible was written aint important at all. That may NEVRR be pinpointed. God has secrets known to no one.
The intended audience? Really? Listen, please. God is not stupid. He probably has about 2 or 3 Phds. the bible was built for ALL of the ages. We understand. Those of us with faith in one who was actually present when all of this occurred. Instead of an "educated" guesser??? The book of the bible is old!!!
I believe. But, Science was always my worst subject. I may be biased.I only asked two questions...The first part you took as a question was actually a statement.
And You did not answer either of the questions I asked.
1 Corinthians 2:13-15 "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
Proverbs 14:12 "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."Not judgment. Scripture. Good ones too!!! We must know what words go where.
Man receives his wisdom from God. If this verse is to be taken completely at face value, then there is no need for seminaries or ministers/priests nor the Christian to spread the word as the Holy Spirit will guide all of Mankind in all matters of religious beliefs
Your close. No need for seminaries or salaried clergy.
2 Cor 9:7 "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver."
I suspect, based on the math of what is accomplished, that most of those I fellowship with give much more than a "tithe", but do so as we feel led to, not under command for some percent.I know what the bible says.
I was curious as to your take on tithe, since that you mentioned that clergy shouldn't be paid? What should the tithe be used for? And for what purpose does God need money for? He is more than capable of providing for his children without the use of money. You have heard of Manna from Heaven I am sure.Oh come on!!!
Did you ever read the bible during your studies??? Did you at least pay attention to the red words???
Jesus said, and I quote: that aint the most important thing y'all. Think about somn else. (Ok, maybe that wasn't a DIRECT quote. But pretty accurate. What do you think? OH!!! The tithe, tge tithe, the tithe. That is one of the BIGGEST money makers of the church. Jesus said, well you remember. Well I guess it aint preached on Sunday morning that often (LIKE EVER)I am curious...Do you actually read posts before you respond to them?
Your rant has nothing to do with the conversation I was having with someone else...
I know that Jesus said money didn't mean anything..."Camel through eye of needle" "sell all you have and give to poor" "Take nothing with you, God provide"...
I was asking that persons opinion on giving tithes when they stated clergy should not be paid...and what should that money be used for if not in part to support Gods worker...As God doesn't really need money.. and can provide for his own...- my bad... I took your post at "face" value, and didn't read any further to fully grasp the concept/meaning. Let that be a lesson. Don't make the same "mistake" I made.
LOL. I am not perfect either...Not by a long shot...I do try my best to grasp the concept and meaning of something before tossing in my two cents...I get it wrong sometimes...But I hope that when corrected to the meaning that I am open-minded enough to see my error and then take it from there or say my apologies and back out.
It is good talking with you. Hopefully, you have taken nothing personal...And even if we don't agree we can still have a conversation in a cival manner.Civil's my middle name!!!
I enjoy this conversation so much. It is faith-strengthening for me. I get a kick out of watching, as if from the sidelines, the spirit speak through me. I am a fascinated student of HIS. and I enjoy his lesson plan. I am cool with the lot. Even ATM who challenges me with all. I am such a people person though I prefer solitude.
Do tell how I am wrong...I am curious...
Seminaries, priests and the like are only capable of providing knowledge. Not wisdom. Only God msy provide the wisdom it takes to understand his word. Wisdom and knowledge are kinds different.
Umm...That is what I said...So how was I wrong?
Speaking of Knowledge and Wisdom being different things...Do you know the difference between the two?
Knowledge is knowing...Wisdom is knowing when and how to use that knowledge...DS: Would it be too much of an imposition to ask your age?
That is NOT what you said. You asked if God put it in your heart then why the need for srminaries etc... NO! I think it was more like, if God gave wisdom, why the need for...
You were a little off.
Then "I" explained the difference between knowledge and wisdom. Right???Ok. Here is what I said...
"Man receives his wisdom from God. If this verse is to be taken completely at face value, then there is no need for seminaries or ministers/priests nor the Christian to spread the word as the Holy Spirit will guide all of Mankind in all matters of religious beliefs"
Here is what you replied...
"Seminaries, priests and the like are only capable of providing knowledge. Not wisdom. Only God msy provide the wisdom it takes to understand his word. Wisdom and knowledge are kinds different."
Read both again very carefully...If God provides the reason...And public schools teach you to read...Then all that is required is God for the Reason and a Bible to read for the knowledge...The rest is not required...
And Just because my definition differs from yours does not mean I am wrong...or off...Just that it differs from yours...Unless of course you are God and know all things...? Are you?
BTW I will be turning 40 here soon... Not that my age really matters...
Also I would be interested to see your answers that JM posed to you...
Because so far you haven't answered mine...And you did make the claim to know the bible...So both of my questions should have been fairly simple for you to answer...What year was tge bible written? Did I NOT answer that? Mark, somethin about Mark and his bible writings? Oh!!! You did not like my answers; so you discarded them.
clever...I did not disgard your answers...You did not provide any...
It seems you don't even remember the questions I even asked...
I ask some very simple questions...Here they are again...
Question on the bible...Who is the author and in what year was the Book of Mark written, Who was the authors intended audience and why is this information important in understanding the message contained within the Book of Mark.
Question on your beliefs based from the bible...If the bible is based on divine guidance from God...Explain why Jesus said the Law would not go away, yet Paul says it isn't required and we are under grace now.I hate copy and paste. But I remember answering each question. I repeated my response on my previous post. You just don't like my answers. You threw them out the window. I don't know what year the book of Mark was written; if you had not placed so much faith in the deliverer of that message; you would be aware that you dont either. But his intended audience was definitely you. Take it or leave it. There are no reasons (did you hear me? I said reason! ) why that should bother you. It's nonsensical! Right?
Ok. So...You don't know the answer to the questions...You have your opinions...but not the answer...
This is the point I was making...When it comes to debating or talking religion with Atheist...The Christian (Who is defending the bible) MUST know the answers to questions of this type and not just give the preaching type of answer that you provided to the questions I posed.
I don't care one way or another myself...But one cannot make a claim of knowing the bible to someone who is atheist and then expect them to accept the type of answer you gave...It completely defeats the purpose of the message you are trying to pass on...They don't believe in God, Jesus or anything related to that, so to attempt to use these as tools in your argument with someone who is not a believer is counter productive...They are looking for "facts" or "evidence"...
Just a thought...Thank you for this post! You have proven my point. The bible is spiritual in nature. The atheist is not. Those two don't coexist. Light and dark don't mix. You cannot expect to receive the message of the bible when you read it to see the flaw. Or nit pick at it to find its incontinence. See??? Our arguments remain somewhat flawed in that you are trying to "see" spirit with natural eyes. The facts on my side are that the bible is the word of God and has everything it needs to paint the entire spiritual picture. You either believe that or you don't. It is ok, to mark a big red X on it in your educated mind. But you cannot convince me that I should X it too because "somebody" said he has information that shows this God character is just a farce. Because the dates don't add up in the graphs somebody else used very sophisticated measures to come up with. Can't that be ok with you?
You do realize I am not debating God or anything else with you...I am only pointing out that when one wishes to point out "facts" to someone who doesn't believe as you do...Then you must use what they understand to get your point across or it will never work. And it helps to have actual knowledge of the material at hand...One can not have wisdom without first having knowledge...
Precisely what I am saying to you. The bible is spiritual. You must switch; not the bible. You cannot understand without ITS tools. So studies of its origin and its message are hinged upon where your faith lies. I am not trying to understand atheism. If I were, I would speak in "knowledge" of the so-called factual evidence. You are trying to understand spirit. You NEED those "goggles"
So the atheist must have faith to read the bible properly to learn faith in god.
I trust you see the problem?I think what they mean is we have to start with the assumption that the bible is fact and turn off our brain while we read. I had a sales man in the house a while ago attempting to sell me an over priced door. He told me I should agree to buy it before he gives me the price as it will be such a good price. When I said no, I'd like the price first, he asked me if I was Scottish because I was both stubborn and cheep. After about another half hour he gave me a price (one time offer of only $1600). I sent him packing. Another guy walked in and said I don't need the whole door, just the window insert ($400). I said done, and it was installed a few days later.
So the sales person wants us to agree before we read the fine print.This "salesperson" WANTS you to read the fineprint and understand it too. Yes, turn off your brain
turn on your spirit. The bible says you cannot lean to your own understanding. God knew that you would not be able to understand it all, but he asks that you trust him with your heart. In turn, Darwin knew that we would not understand his entire message either ( hell... he sure didn't) yet look at all the people who trust him. But he only asks. He doesn't demand.Sure the bible says God demands worship, it even threatens with eternal hell fire if you don't Give your God his undivided attention. Not a pleasant trait in a human.
What difference is that to you if biblical words are just nonsense?
You cannot learn faith. You either have it or you don't. The atheist cannot understand the things of God (the bible in this case) because it is foolishness to him. (Scripture)
Wow, you understand. Except you need to replace God with religion.
Thread over.Then your god has created billions of people destined for hell because they were not made with faith built in.
Thanks a lot, God!Right, so why are we here? You are going to stop preaching now I guess/hope.
OK...If what you are saying is in fact 100% true and that is how you truly feel and believe...Then you should never once have a comment to offer to anyone other than to yourself. Because if you are not trying to understand the ones you are wishing to help "save" then how are you going to know how to "save" them?
Let me mention one other thing...If I was concerned with Theology...Then what you are saying would matter in the points we have been discussing...
Biblical Studies is all about the text itself...It has nothing to do with faith or religious beliefs...Not trying to help save anyone. I'm merely speaking as I have been given. Seems as if you are trying to understand the topic that I know so well. You need to follow instruction on how to understand if in fact you are trying to understand. But I think debunk is more like what you are trying to do. And you have already
You have proven that I did not study the origin of the text, nor do I know it in Latin. And that is true for all books. But biblical truths stand firmly.Do you then acknowledge that you're Biblical Truth may be different from someone else's and while it might be truth to you, it is technically opinion?
I am not trying to understand your personal theology. I am not attempting to debunk anything either. Our discussion was nothing more than an example of answering the Thread topic...
Just a note. The original text is in Hebrew and Greek..for the most part...The Latin is the Catholic Churches translation of the "original" texts...Have you read the topic? Pushy atheists with the faith sledgehammer hammering away with their SELF.?
Yes I have. I also read the question as to why they act that way...Which is the question our discussion was directed at...
Usually, adults are able to discuss matters of this nature without escalation in anger and frustration. I am not frustrated about you not agreeing with me. It almost seems as if you choose to attribute your "problem" to Christians who dare to disagree with you especially without a "doctor" paper. Knowledge however extensive is fleeting. There is a learning cap in certain matters. You just cannot learn it all.
My problem? I never claimed to be atheist....And I don't care if we disagree...
Everything I have stated or asked...was in getting clarification on your postings...and using our discussion as an example...in short...playing "devil's advocate" to prove a point...Nothing more...I am sure that the devil appreciated your assistance. And the point that you proved to me was that my faith is equal in resistance to your education. But I already knew that. The bible told me that. See?
I wasn't making a point just to you...it was in general...And the term "devil's advocate" is tongue in cheek...But of course...What else would one expect...LOL...And as I keep saying...we wasn't discussing your faith...But since you keep mentioning it...You stick to your faith as it is...despite any facts or other opinions which may in fact better your faith...Being educated can only increase your faith and understanding...Or for some...if their faith is already in question...cause it to go away completely and be replaced by secular reasoning...
Some choose to live by facts alone...Others by faith alone...and some by both...Don't be so sensitive. Your tongue in your cheek was obvious. I only expressed that you were a marvelous "advocate." You argued a convincing point for "his" side.
Living by faith is what the bible asks. That's a fact. knowledge is fleeting. It will never satisfy the soul.- Actually I was arguing for the side of the believer...To be used as defense for the questioning of the non-believer...
Go back and read our conversation again. I repeatedly mentioned that our conversation was not about your faith or beliefs...I even said that the same type of conversation that I was having with you was one I used with non-believers and that when it comes to the "Atheist" they didn't have a problem...we just don't agree in our beliefs...Cival conversations..nothing more nothing less...and we both leave the wiser for our talk...The atheist with a better understanding of why Christians belief the way they do...and me with a better understanding of why they view things the way they do...no fighting and no judging or name calling...nothing of that sort...
I have been talking on hubpage forums for a good while...And the only person I have ever had any type of issue with was Brother...But I am not alone in that...But other than that...on here or in real life...I have always been about to discussion religion...pro or con...without the discussion falling into name calling or saying "because the bible says so"Arguing or discussing the bible pro or con on a regular basis seems to me as the biblical doublemindedness. Hmmm... devil's advocate/bible defender??? He would rather you be hot or cold. Both sides is kinda worse.
No, it's really not... It actually comes closest to anything resembling productive on these boards. It's the willingness to see from another point of view and the willingness to concede points from that point of view. It's the kind of thing that PREVENTS arguments...
But only if arguing is not your goal and only if conversion is not your goal.
DS has never, ever attacked anyone or anything. He is quite possibly one of the most intelligent and open minded posters on this forum when it comes to religion.
He's only frustrating if one is trying to prove their point without acknowledging his.
His absence as well as the absence of a few other posters like him, is one of the reasons these forums have fallen prey to the kind of post we saw in the OP and he has my respect... Which is a damn hard thing to earn.I cannot agree with somebody to keep them from arguing; nor win their irrelevant respect. I say what "I" feel. Not what DS feels. And he certainly has my respect. Opening your mind to each new wave of doctrinal persuasion is not healthy. If you don't stand for something, you fall for anything. I won't change my heart because a new doctor wrote a new book with "really" bible damning news. I am not trying to convince you or anyone else. I am telling things as I believe they are. (Opinion) we ALL have one or two. I am open minded. About dinner, movies, vacation spots. But one thing I will NOT compromise is my faith. Its just too precious to me. How the masses feels about it... irrelevant.
Well all I can say is if you can't open your mind to someone else's point of view, you don't deserve anyone opening their mind to yours.
Then you have your answer to the question raised by the OP.
I, as a Christian, have no desire to hear your views now. I can't learn anything from you. I have no desire to hear you preach, I have a desire to discuss and grow. There is no growth in spirit by stagnating your own mind, so I feel you have nothing to offer.
If I feel that way as a Christian, I can only assume that your preaching would be more unacceptable to an atheist.
I don't know about the Jesus you know, but the Jesus I know likes people who think. He like people who discuss him with an open heart and an open mind.I just try to wrap my mind around what goes on in her mind. She seems to be of the mind that we seek what she has, but I think she can't see beyond her self so she can't understand how anyone else can think differently.
I know this will make you cringe Rad, but when I listen to other Christians I am actually seeking spiritual growth. She doesn't offer that opportunity... so she can offer me nothing in the way of anything I'm seeking.
Thanks for the kind words Melissa.
One thing that I find interesting about some persons is when they choose to stop learning...Why someone would not want to know more, even if it isn't what or how they believe, is beyond me. Sometimes we need to learn what it is we don't believe so we can better understand what it is we do believe.
If it wasn't for believers asking questions, then all Christians would still be Catholic...There would not have been a Protestant reformation and some of the posters on here would hold a very different outlook on their faith.
One of the reasons some people become Atheist is because they have questions that the "Church" cannot answer...And this is not because an answer doesn't exist, but sadly it is because the "Church" doesn't know the answer because they refuse to learn anything past what they think they know.Thanks again! "What they think they know" is a good theme for you two too
We accept the fact that what we think we know can be changed based on receiving new data or information.
This is not the case for everyone...Good observation! In your case; tossed to and fro by every new doctrine. My case; blessed assurance that keeps me firmly planted. Nice work.
Only tossed to and fro if at every new doctrine I change my beliefs...Learning about them does nothing more than strengthen my beliefs or better define them...
Learning on a subject does not have to change one's beliefs or faith.
I would say...the person afraid of learning anything new is not very secure in their belief or faith as they are afraid learning something new would change that belief or faith..Bingo! We must guard our hearts. I have received lots of information on this site to have learned a lot. I learned; I rejected most of it. As you have. Learning new things does not shake faith. Allowing the learned material that goes against what you already feel deep down in your heart, to crowd out your focus; is the problem. Rejecting God is sin. For the atheist, rejecting God is a way of life. For the agnostic; rejecting God is a STRONG possibility. For the "learned" rejecting God mostly becomes a must if the spirit is not employed in research. The brain can't fathom forever.
A perfect example of my thread, "Do Atheists Reject God?"
Rejecting a BELIEF in God is the better way to state the Atheists position. Since you, and ALL other believers, have provided NO evidence whatsoever, the only thing that you have done is accepted a BELIEF in God....nothing more.
Atheists reject your illogical beliefs, NOT GOD, as there is no evidence to support any existence of a God or any of the supernatural. If you had an illogical belief in Spider Man, would Atheist be rejecting Spider Man, or a belief in Spider Man? All illogical beliefs are to be rejected, would you not agree?Well to me, rejecting a belief in God leads to believing that there isn't one. That's an acceptable position and you get no flack from me. What you fail to realize is that evidence has been provided biblically. You do not accept that report. And that too is an acceptable position. So again I ask, "What the hell is your problem?" Really laughing out loud.
Sorry, but the Bible is not evidence of anything other than myths and superstitions.
Just as your, logically, rejecting the belief in Spider Man, leads to believing that there is no Spider Man.
There would be no problem just declaring believers completely delusional, like all others who suffer from such disorders, and proceed to just ignore them...except....
"In Spider Man We Trust" is not on our money.
No one has changed the Pledge of Allegiance to include "One nation...under Spider Man"
I am not required to swear on a Marvel comic book when testifying in court.
People don't knock on my door asking, "Have you heard the word of Spider Man today?"
Are you getting this, or are you going to misread this, as well? In conclusion, your delusional beliefs are intrusive, demanding and compulsory on the lives of others, while other psychotic beliefs are kept in their appropriate places.However, you run (swing) over to each and every "spider man" conversation. I simply would not do that. When I get a knock about "spider man" I know how to say a kind "no thanks" and keep it moving. I personally will not go to Spidey conventions to TELL them that they are deluded. Do YOU get that?
I agree.
Somehow, amazingly... I have learned some of the history of the Bible (obviously not all) some of the culture/politics at the time it was written... and have listened and even agreed with Atheists on certain points.
Yet I'm still a Christian.
I guess I'm sure enough in my faith that I'm not scared to listen and learn. I never reached that point in my life when I said "Yep, I know everything I need to know" If I ever do, then I really hope someone puts me out of my misery.
Oh, well you need broken all the way down huh???
Listen: your scripture taken at face value leads you to the conclusion that seminaries etc are not needed because God gives wisdom. The preacher gives the info and breaks it down. Spirit of God shows application of learned material.Umm...Again we have a communication problem...
Read the first three parts again...We said the same things...
"Ok. Here is what I said...
Man receives his wisdom from God. If this verse is to be taken completely at face value, then there is no need for seminaries or ministers/priests nor the Christian to spread the word as the Holy Spirit will guide all of Mankind in all matters of religious beliefs"
Here is what you replied...
"Seminaries, priests and the like are only capable of providing knowledge. Not wisdom. Only God msy provide the wisdom it takes to understand his word. Wisdom and knowledge are kinds different."
Read both again very carefully...If God provides the reason...And public schools teach you to read...Then all that is required is God for the Reason and a Bible to read for the knowledge...The rest is not required..."
The rest was in answer to the remainder of your post...Our definition of knowledge and wisdom...my age...
"And Just because my definition differs from yours does not mean I am wrong...or off...Just that it differs from yours...Unless of course you are God and know all things...? Are you?
BTW I will be turning 40 here soon... Not that my age really matters..."God gives wisdom about learned material. I think that is where we break in communication. You learn the material through reading or being taught.
then the holy spirit gives knowledge about said material. Get it? God doesn't really micromanage. That's our job. We are to learn what he presents via his written words by any means usually our seminaries and stuff; then we get the wisdom given by WHO?
here's a question for you.
You say that only those that believe can truly understand the scripture, correct?
The bible is one of the most widely published and distributed books on earth. Missionaries hand them out when they don't have the time or capability to preach or mentor. What are these people supposed to do with those bibles if not read them? How are they supposed to come to believe based on the bible if they can't understand it unless they believe already? How are you supposed to believe something before knowing or understanding it when you can't know or understand it until you believe it?
are you really saying that you know, understand and interpret the bible just as well as people who have actually spent their lives studying it in the original languages, taking college classes and writing research papers on it? Does that not seem boastful or arrogant to you?
From our previous interactions, I've often pointed out bible verses to you that you were unaware of and had to go check them. Then you told me what they were SUPPOSED to mean, as opposed to what they actually said - even in comparison to the original languages which you neither read or understand. Yet other Christians disagree with your interpretations. Do you claim that you trump believers and non-believers alike and you, alone, are correct?Some very interesting points JM...I am curious to the answers you receive.
Penn Jillette said it best:
"Reading the Bible is the fast track to atheism. Reading the Bible means starting at 'In the beginning...' and throwing it down with disgust at '...the grace of the lord Jesus be with all. Amen.' I'm sure there are lots of religious people who've read the Bible from start to finish and kept their faith, but in my self-selected sample, all the people I know who have done that are atheists."
"Take some time and put the Bible on your summer reading list. Try and stick with it cover to cover. Not because it teaches history; we've shown you it doesn't. Read it because you'll see for yourself what the Bible is all about. It sure isn't great literature. If it were published as fiction, no reviewer would give it a passing grade. There are some vivid scenes and some quotable phrases, but there's no plot, no structure, there's a tremendous amount of filler, and the characters are painfully one-dimensional. Whatever you do, don't read the Bible for a moral code: it advocates prejudice, cruelty, superstition, and murder. Read it because: we need more atheists — and nothin' will get you there faster than readin' the damn Bible."Then we'd have more scientists, physicists, inventors, and artists.
And things like religion, racism, censorship, and the Tea Party would be another sad peculiarity of the past.I understand the reasons for your belief. Thank you. Very interesting.
Yeah meat!!!
Ummm... how can you ask of God if you first do not believe that he is (present)? He gives liberally to all who only ask. And he doesn't upbraid. remember? You have to have faith before you ask. How ddoes this sound? God I know you don't exist, but teach me your ways. ?
Blessed are they who believe without seeing. Do you know that this paragraph is all taken from scripture?
Years of schooling don't mean nothing. It just means that you took your brain to a book. A craxy old book that you have a sneaking suspicion... how can you learn anything of him? That is scripture too.
Again, you may spend a lifetime in bible college and NEVER EVER "get" it. It takes the mind of Christ. Not cram sessions to pinpoint each assumed inconsistence. The spirit ties it together."to argue with a man who has renouced his reason is like giving medicine to the dead."
(Thomas Paine, The Crisis, quoted in Ingersoll's Works)
You must be talking about the old testiment which christians use for historical purpose
without the Old Testament, there is no need for the arrival of Jesus Christ. Either the Bible is all true (and therefore these passages are valid) or Jesus just appeared out of nowhere with no cause or need. Without the fall in the garden of eden, salvation was unnecessary.
Additionally, a lot of Christians like to pick and choose. For example, they'll use the Old Testament to condemn homosexuals, but IGNORE completely the other verses about stoning disobedient children because they don't like it. Which is it?Yep...automated defen?....what was that word? So predictable.
Yep! Automated defenses: Shot in clouds of digital spittle from turrets atop rhetorical fortresses. Ah, the power of words.
please send me the scriptures that say these things bc while studying Christianity I never came across them and also yeah I'm pretty sure that almost every CULTURE has used slaves at some point in the last umpteen thousand years. Please stop giving atheist a bad name with your un-thought out responses
They say the bible cannot be trusted to have even been recorded accurately or that Jesus existed at all. They would rather believe that God and metaphysics cannot be proven. Period. They say that ethics and morals come from common sense and in fact are part of human nature, which evolved through survival of the fittest. They laugh at anyone who would believe in "fairy tales." The real question is why do we take them seriously and put up our automatic defenses as Zelkirro has just explained to me? They can't believe in God because they do not use the part of the brain which requires imagination. They seem to be very left brained. They truly believe that mankind is naturally good and that no one needs to be told by anyone to believe anything one way or the other. They believe in thinking for themselves and not imagining stuff. Looks like they also see a lot of unacceptable stuff in the OT.
Simple, we are presenting facts and you are denying or rejecting them in favor of your holy book.
That is a very good statement showing the dishonesty the OP is complaining about. Many Atheists can imagine more than you. And, if you say you don't ever think for yourself, that would be dishonest, too.This response reveals a good example of an ever ready, up and running automatic defense system. I was just stating facts. Not opinions or criticisms. Many atheists do not feel comfortable imagining a god. They think it's like cheating.
For others, they like to imagine a god as the first step to discovering the real essence of God.
These are the words used by believers to describe those who don't share their beliefs...
- evil
- followers of Satan
- immoral
- unethical
- haters
- godless
- fools
- demons
- anti-Christ
- intolerant
- arrogant
... the list goes on an on.
Then, why aren't you telling them that? Atheists would never say a word if it were not for believers saying these things about them in the first place.
Let me get this straight, you're defending those who use those words against atheists because it makes them happy?
Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but with a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man's foes will be those of his own household. He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy. (Matthew 10:34-37)
Do you think I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division; for henceforth in one house there will be five divided, three against two and two against three; they will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. (Luke 12:51-53)
If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. (Luke 14:26)
...a Canaanite woman ...came out and cried, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David; my daughter is severely possessed by a demon. But he did not answer her a word. And his disciples came and begged him, saying, "Send her away, for she is crying after us." He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." But she came and knelt before him, saying, "Lord, help me." And he answered, "It is not fair to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs." (Matthew 15:23)
Just a few passages that show another side...The bible was written for the children of God. It is a spiritual book. It is NOT for use by those who fo not care to take it seriously. The mind of man works against the mind of Christ. The "fight" is "God mindedness vs no God whatsoever. This "fight" precisely.
I take the bible very serious. And since the bible states that Christ is the head of man and the head is where the mind is located...How is not the mind of man not also the mind of Christ?
Ok now you're scaring me. We each think differently. We all have a different mind. (Never thought I'd ever have to explain that to a Doctor). However God's mind is the one that we are to take on and conform to. So NO, we have our own minds. Until we deny self and allow God to do our thinking for us.
So what you are saying... is that the Christian person, since they are under God's guidance, all think alike when it comes to God? They should as Christ is the Head of the believer.
Of course all humans don't think alike...I don't think that...And you are not explaining anything to me...I am asking and making comments that are asking you to clarify your statements...
And since God's mind and understanding is beyond the Human one we can never begin to reach his mind or understanding. We can only do our best and seek forgiveness for our flaws.
Your last comment though worries me just a bit and shows why this thread even exists. To many people are completely giving up their own ability to think and freely allow themselves to be led to what they are told is God's plan via the Church or their own limited understanding of the Bible itself. Every single Christian should take a few classes on the bible and their belief system so they know how to better answer questions/ or debate the atheist. Because you can trust that the Atheist knows it.Yes!!! Not even many "Christians" understand that God only has one mind. One way to truth and life. God decides who "has it" and who does not. We can see often times based upon certain things like declaring no faith in God.
God decides who has it and who don't? So we humans don't have freewill to choose?
You are clever... Let me break it down for you.
God knows who accepts and has faith in him based upon what we have ALREADY decided. Also, for further clarification; he KNOWS who will and who will not accept him. He does not force your decision. He simply knows if you are hot or cold.Ahh..ok...So if God is already aware and knows this, then what is the purpose of spreading the Good Word...Shouldn't those who are going to choose God be able to do that without the assistance of man interfering with God's plan?
You seem to be making this easy.
"How can they hear without a preacher?" Ummm... the answers are all there. Will you please challenge the heart?Sure. This is actually quite easy.
From what you have written...You have implied that the only way for God to get his message to the masses is via a "Preacher"...So...Why did God only divinely inspire a few select men to spread his message (Writers of bible) knowing that men are flawed and that the message would be done as it has been seeing the first product of the bible and what we see today.
Also if God is able to divinely inspire someone to write his word without the help of men, then he can divinely inspire anyone to his message without the help of a "Preacher"...
So to sum this up...From how you said what you said. The only way for God's message to get out is by man doing it. Thus, Everyone is learning God's message from the man and not God himself....Think about that for a minute and see if you can realize what you have implied...And I'll ask any atheist what they think you have implied...Lets see what the answers are...Thanks for the word implication. It helps a point that I have.
First, I never implied that the father of lights is incapable of getting his message across without the aid of a preacher. He can use a donkey; a fig tree, or a brand new baby boy. the "they" in my example were a few. Since we all have different minds (remember) and some of us are auditory learners. "They" need to hear it. And some of us are not so good at thought proceses; for this bunch, explanation may be needed. All will come to know and agree that Jesus is lord of all. (And yes, I believe that EVERY knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess; know why??? He covers ALL bases. I wud not be surprised if atheists are part of the plan too. All will bow and confess.
As for implications: When you hear a quote of someone it usually helps a great deal to know the person being quoted in order to completely understand their implication. The spirit knows what the spirit means.
Atheists who do not know God nor have his spirit are not capable of deciphering any message of God. Only the spirit of God may "try" the spirit of God.
Attempting to explain God's "reason/motivation" is a daunting task. Wouldn't you agree? I have no idea why only the select few; however only a few can even find the path to heaven much less walk along it. Right??? There are only a few select men who want the "job" I think ALL are "capable"I would think God would be quite capable of handling this...man not required This is just "preaching" not part of the topic And seeing as we are "unknown" to each other and our communication is via a forum with typing, we should know this and use the limitation to get our point and/or implications across correctly if we are able to communicate in a correct and effective manner This is more "preaching" and not really part of our conversational topic really.
I will say this...Some of your responses are the typical answers one expects to hear from Christians who really don't have answers (Not saying you do or don't) A question is answered, but nothing is really said...Nothing was really asked.. it does not matter to God if you use charts and graphs to "verify" his version of the truth. He did allow you to be aware that some things you will NEVER find out. To wrestle with dates of materials ages older than anyone alive is for the knowledgeable. They will be chasing their tails for a really long time to come up with a better "GUESS" than anyone else using THEIR charts and graphs that have been made MORE "accurater"
God knows the truth. So no, I do not know what year the bible was written. Or the book of Mark. Or the "real" author. But I do know who holds my future. And he told me to learn of him through his most controversial work of ALL ages. His spirit confirms. When you put on the mind of Christ, (learn of, agree with, and do to your best ability to immulate) while following the inner prompting of his spirit you "get it" and you find that since you will never know the answers to your investigative questions it REALLY does not matter.
Jesus showed us the point of it all. He KNOWS FOR SURE that he who wants to know him will.
- Beth37posted 11 years ago0
oooh, this is kind of a short cut, but that helps me if youre actually open to different ideas about the Bible.
Soooo... if you would like to post the verse(s) that say that racism is mandatory, I will address those. Until then, please read these verses that will hopefully at least give you pause when assuming God is a racist.
http://www.openbible.info/topics/racism - Beth37posted 11 years ago0
Women were considered property. That is not uncommon even today... ask OJ Simpson.
Please actually read all of this excerpt instead of just a sentence.
EPH 5
21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing[b] her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”[c] 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.No, it is not common today, that is not true, more dishonesty from you.
- Beth37posted 11 years ago0
Z Writes:
"Rapists must not be punished, but instead get to marry the girl they rape (unless the girl is already married, in which case the rapist pays her father, like, fifty bucks and the girl is sentenced to death)"
Duet.
28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[a] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
So that's the verse. Deuteronomy is part of the law of their time. This verse is simply saying, like any law book... if this act is committed, this action will be taken against the offender.
So if a man raped a woman in their time and was caught, according to the law, he would pay her father for the crime... maybe this had to do with dowries? And he would marry her and never divorce her for he violated her. Now a days, we would like to see him castrated, but of course he would probably just serve a few years in a reasonably comfortable cell, working out and making a tiny sum of money until his release date. In case you hadn't noticed, this world is not kind to women. If you want to know how God feels about women, read the verses I posted on my last two posts concerning your first two questions. Are you still with me?Yes, your God treats women very badly, that is exactly what those verse say. We, in our secular society today, do not treat women that way. That is the law of men, not Gods.
- Beth37posted 11 years ago0
Zman writes"- Slavery is absolutely essential and morally right, so if you're not a Hebrew, you'd better learn to like shackles"
There are tons of verses telling both slaves how to serve whilst in their circumstance and masters how to treat the slaves whilst in their circumstance... however your statement is not supported that I have ever seen. Maybe you could give me the verse? Can we stop there for a bit so I can pee and get the kids to bed?Yes, I understand. They had laws in their land concerning how they were to treat their slaves... probably on how they should pay taxes... etc. etc. They had laws for everything. Thank God, slavery is not legal anymore. If you noticed... they were talking about Hebrew slaves by name in some of those verses... you do recall God split the ocean to set the Hebrew slaves free?
Uhhhh...no?
Given the context of the story, I'm fairly certain the Sea of Reeds wasn't "the ocean." Likely, it was a swampland north of the Gulf of Suez or a lagoon in the Sinai Peninsula.Ex 13
21 Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea, and all that night the Lord drove the sea back with a strong east wind and turned it into dry land. The waters were divided, 22 and the Israelites went through the sea on dry ground, with a wall of water on their right and on their left.
23 The Egyptians pursued them, and all Pharaoh’s horses and chariots and horsemen followed them into the sea. 24 During the last watch of the night the Lord looked down from the pillar of fire and cloud at the Egyptian army and threw it into confusion. 25 He jammed[d] the wheels of their chariots so that they had difficulty driving. And the Egyptians said, “Let’s get away from the Israelites! The Lord is fighting for them against Egypt.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Seayou know, don't you, that there is no evidence whatsoever that Hebrews migrated en masse from Egypt where they were held as slaves and that even several jews deny that this ever historically happened, right?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/staks-ros … 08123.htmlI hold the Bible in higher esteem than the Huffington post.
One example:
Allegations of supporting pseudo-science[edit source]
The Huffington Post has been criticized by several science bloggers, as well as online news sources, for including articles by supporters of alternative medicine and anti-vaccine activists and for allegedly "censoring" rebuttals written by science bloggers before publishing them.[52][53][54][55]
Steven Novella, president of the New England Skeptical Society, criticized The Huffington Post for allowing homeopathy proponent Dana Ullman to have a blog there:
Dana Ullman, a notorious homeopathy apologist, actually has a regular blog over at HuffPo. For those of us who follow such things, the start of his blog there marked the point of no return for the Huffington Post – clearly the editors had decided to go the path of Saruman and "abandon reason for madness." They gave up any pretense of caring about scientific integrity and became a rag of pseudoscience.[56]I hold Green Eggs & Ham in higher esteem than the Bible.
Well that is a good book.
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/rel … tian_N.htm
yes, and the post linked to many other journals of more repute that you may find more interesting - if you bothered to even read it. The fact that the Exodus is not historical has been studied and accepted for CENTURIES. The fact that you, as a Christian, still claim it as absolutely true when the people that it supposedly actually happened to don't speaks volumes. Or there' even a book written by two Jewish scholars: The Bible Unearthed – Neil Asher Silberman & Israel Finkelstein
In addition, the Exodus (if it happened) and the resulting Passover is one of the more immoral, unjust and horrific actions of your god in the entire biblical text. First, god allows his people to be enslaved because he's punishing them. Then, he commands Moses to free them - and god himself hardens Pharaoh's heart. Several times, Pharaoh was convinced to let the Jews go - and god hardened his heart so that he wouldn't - all so god could justify torturing and killing more Egyptians. It sounds like a petulant, angry child torturing an ant under a magnifying glass, pretending to let it escape over and over again just so it can burn again. After all that, right before god commits mass genocide of all of the first born of Egypt, he has the Israelites slaughter lambs and smear the blood on the doors of their homes - so this all-powerful, all-knowing deity would recognize his own people and remember not to kill them. And Christians think this story is wonderful and miraculous. Amazing. Then, to top it all of, when an understandably furious Pharaoh pursues the retreating Jews, god smashes him with an ocean (or, you know, a small lake) and kills him and the entire army for a situation that god himself initiated and caused.There are a few ppl whose posts I do not read any more. Im sorry.
As I told you, I shook the dust from my shoes. I wont argue for the sake of arguing, but Im happy to have discussions with ppl who are not haters of God disguised as non believers.you read my posts enough to respond with disdain over my sources (namely the one I linked to others) but now you supposedly don't read my posts? I may buy it if you actually never responded to me, but you do. So either you're lying or you're just convinced that you're correct when the evidence shows otherwise. You may want to rethink. Telling someone "i'm not listening to you, i'm not listening to you, I'm not talking to you" only work if you don't actually keep saying it TO the person that you're supposedly ignoring.
Why come to threads created by or directed to atheists if you don't like arguing with them? "the Lady doth protest too much"
I don't hate god. I don't believe in god. You can't hate something you don't believe in. It sounds like a convenient excuse when you're unable to come up with a rational answer because someone knows more about your religion and your book than you do.Every once in a while you accuse someone (me) of hating God. Why is that? Is it because you can't imagine someone not believing in God so you assume they believe and hate? To date, I think I may have only seen one poster who seems to have gone over to the so called dark side, the rest of us don't believe in God and would like you and others to stop telling us how to live our lives.
Why would thank God, it is your God who allows slavery, it was men who decided it is not legal anymore. You should be thanking our secular societies for that.
In their circumstance? That circumstance happens to be slavery, which your holy book does not outright prohibit. Your God actually allows people to own other people. Again, in today's society, the law of men prohibit slavery.
Slavery has not been abolished! The legalistic definition has been changed. BUT ...
drug addicts are slaves to their dealers.
Every single mom working two Jobs to support their family are slaves to their poverty.
The workaholic's are slaves (willingly) to whatever it is that drives them to sacrifice everything else for whatever it is they gain by being workaholics.
We are all slaves to whatever it is we LOVE the most.
For many people, this would be our ego.Hardly the same concept as ATM is talking about.
Not the same yet it is. Seems like we live in a Yes ... BUT (???) World.
When reading anything, such as the bible, which was written in a different language and our interpretation of the original word does affect the translation of it.
We are fooling ourselves when we think we completely understand what we have read, while thinking only in two dimensional terms.
The meanings of many words change as the centuries pass and cultures change.
To be someones servant in many instances is the same as being their slave when there "seems" to be no acceptable alternatives.
Wow, you really have no idea what I was talking about.
Oh for the LIFE of me NOT ANOTHER one of these...........dear, please!
When will THERE be a non-confrontional religious thread for discussion? This is TOO MUCH, ENOUGH!The use of the word "hell" should have tipped us off.
+1
I don't think this represents all Christians at all, or even most Christians. However, it's shocked how bullied Christians often think they are. Me standing up for gay people is religious intolerance? like... WHAT? Not wanting non-science like Creationism to be taught in science class is religious intolerance? Opting to say happy holidays instead of Merry Christmas is an absolute war on Christianity?
And this paired with the countless "you're going to hell" (and worse) from Christians to atheists. I doubt an atheist ever told anyone their soul was going to burn for eternity, and that's a fair bit more offensive than "you believe in fairytales."
Again, I don't think all religious people are like that. But I just cannot take Christian whining seriously.
Once again let's not make this a religious debate as you will never convince anyone. Im only talking about those people who go out of their way opening up debates, forums with people of faith only with the mission to shatter it. This is not about chritians vs atheists (im a non believer myself) as I personally know alot of good charitble atheists who live in Africa and south america helping the poor without expecting anything in return. This is just a question about what is with this growing trend.. thanks for all your answers and many make some good points
what about people that open up inflammatory forum topics to bash atheists and accuse us of bullying now, after several thousand years of enduring the reverse? If you wanted an honest discussion, I'm not sure that the title of this thread or your OP were the way to go about it. It's accusatory and picking a fight. No wonder you're getting the responses that you're getting?
I have the right to express my thoughts and yeah 'what is their problem' and they did express their problem quite rightly. It is about respecting peoples beliefs. I have spoken in the same inflammatory manner to door knockers and my own friends trying to ram religion down my throat. The one thing that I will never do and have no right to do is try take away or shatter a faith that brings them peace. Anyway it was good to also have your insight. Cheers
...Really? Are you new to the internet?
"OP" is, and has always been "original poster" or "original post" (outside the context of video games, where it means "overpowered").
How can you shatter a faith? You poor, poor thing you.
Did some nasty atheist point out how ridiculous your beliefs are? Best way to fix that is to not hold such ridiculous beliefs.
Why should I respect your beliefs exactly? Give me one good reason and I will start doing so. It is rather odd though - You don't seem to respect the beliefs of those who believe they need to spread the word door to door - so how come this doesn't apply to you?You poor poor thing, get your facts straight before jumping to conclusions. What are my beliefs exactly?
Oh - you are defending a poor, poor thing then. Yay you! I don't know what your beliefs are. That is why it is so ridiculous to demand that people respect other's beliefs. For one - it seems to be that you believe other people's beliefs should be respected, no matter how outlandish and divisive they are. Give me one good reason to do so.
And of course explain why this admonition to "respect other's beliefs" doesn't appear to apply to you.
We do not respect hate speech, especially if it is masked as religious beliefs or verses taken from the Bible.
1. Being a Christian is a choice.
2. Coming to a well-hidden religious topical forum on a writer's website is a choice.
I'm not sure that you can be persecuted by choice, or even bullied. If you are making a conscious decision to take place in an argument then you really can't complain about being bullied.
Now, about the who has it worse gays or Christians... here's a big surprise for you all. I am most bullied about my sexuality by Christians. I am most bullied about my religion by members of the GLBT community.
Not that either of them bullies me too much... mainly because if a *Who the hell cares what you think?* Doesn't work, I ignore them.
It's truly beautiful. If someone tries to be an ass to me, I... IGNORE THEM. Try it. Not a uppity "See how much better I am than you, I'm ignoring you" but a true honest to goodness complete apathy to anyone else's opinions on things that are your personal choice (Religion) or you innate nature (sexuality).
I am completely aware that I need no one's approval for either of them and I have no desire to prove my correctness or superiority to anyone else. I see those who are jumping up and down screaming that they are right as being insecure and unsure of themselves. Like they can only be sure of their own beliefs/sexuality when everyone else on the planet agrees with them.
There is great freedom in simply not giving a ****. If you are unable to do this, you don't need to be on a forum, you need to be in a therapists chair working on your own self-esteem issues.Melissa, I love you. Thank you for this :-)
Melissa, IN TOTAL AGREEMENT and THANK YOU for being eloquent regarding THIS point!
Thank you Ma'am.
Once again, I am truly sorry. I shall be apologizing in every post directed at you for weeks... maybe months.
- Beth37posted 11 years ago0
Do you understand that homosexuality and Christianity have nothing to do with each other? That is not the point Im making at all. What I am saying is, there is a bigotry that has become acceptable and I believe that's what this thread is about. My point was that there are those who want to silence me concerning my faith... that has been requested on this very thread if there is any doubt... and those who say they do not want to silence, want to mock and tear down. Every one says "live and let live" but when it comes to matters of faith, there seems to be a different set of rules. Now before someone brings up the crusades or whether or not homosexuality is a choice (another thing that has nothing to do with this conversation), I wish someone would just stop and acknowledge the fact that even though it appears to be the non-believers who start most of these conversations... it appears to be the non-believers who want to silence or mock the believer. If you don't like the answers, why not stop asking the questions?
Beth, I'm genuinely curious... If things are so bad for you here, then why do you come here? Why do you post in any religious threads or even read them? There are thousands of religious forums, many of them closed and tightly monitored, that you could discuss religion in without debate until your face turned blue.
Knowing that, why do you purposely seek out an arena that you know your views (not you, whether you see the difference or not) are going to be debated, argued with and debunked? That doesn't sound like persecution to me... I always believed persecution was something that you couldn't get away from. If it really upsets you as much as you say it does, then it seems almost masochistic to keep coming back over and over again.
Seriously... Why would any sane person put themselves in a situation where they feel bullied and attacked and do it on an excessive, almost hourly basis?They are not bad for me Melissa... and once again, that is not the point. The point is not, 'is Beth suffering?' the point of the thread, I thought, was 'are certain ppl doing their best to antagonize others b/c of their faith?'
I seldom participate on these threads as I feel they tend to be constant replicas of each other. To be honest, the only reason I commented on this thread was b/c I felt it would be cowardly and unkind of me to allow the op to stick her neck out on the behalf of others and not acknowledge that she had made that effort.
And as far as the reason I keep bringing up the homosexuality issue is b/c I assume you all can better wrap your heads around what I'm trying to say when I use the illustration.
You said "persecution is something you can't get away from."
However not being allowed to share your beliefs without being pressured to be silent falls under the heading of persecution, wouldn't you think?
If your company had a Christmas party and your employer said he didn't care if you were a homosexual as long as you didn't bring your partner to the party... or at least not talk about your relationship or show any affection in front of the other employees... would you feel that was a fair request?
per·se·cu·tion
ˌpərsəˈkyo͞oSHən/Submit
noun
noun: persecution; plural noun: persecutions
1.
hostility and ill-treatment, esp. because of race or political or religious beliefs.
"her family fled religious persecution"
synonyms: oppression, victimization, maltreatment, ill-treatment, mistreatment, abuse, ill-usage, discrimination, tyranny; More
harassment, hounding, intimidation, bullying
persistent annoyance or harassment.
"his persecution at the hands of other students"Again, where have you been persecuted for your religious beliefs?
Here you are allowed your opinion and you can give them as much as possible, just as we can do the same. When you are told you are wrong, that's not persecution.
If you are at an office party and people tell you to stop preaching that's still not religious persecution, it would be if you were told that if you go to mass on Sunday morning you would be jailed.I wouldn't go to the Christmas party... and I wouldn't feel persecuted at all. No, if I held a straight job, that job is neither the time or the place to talk about my religion or my sexuality. So being told to be quiet about those aspects of my life would never occur... because it would be excessively unprofessional to be trying to talk about those things on the clock anyway.
I've NEVER seen persecution on these boards... not without a banning. You have never, in my view, been personally attacked because of your faith. I've seen the tenants of Christianity torn to shreds, I've seen the accuracy of Christianity torn to shreds, I've seen the establishment and practices of Christianity torn to shreds... but I've never seen YOU attacked personally. Just your beliefs. They aren't the same thing. You are not your beliefs... If you take having your ideas criticized, then I'm so sorry, but welcome to big people world.
These two sentences (as examples, not directed at anyone in particular) mean two completely different things.
Bob is stupid.
Bob's ideas are stupid.
One is a personal attack. The other isn't.
Either way, Bob isn't being persecuted... he might be being insulted though. Although if Bob can't deal with being insulted, Bob obviously has some self-esteem issues. Bob also has to do a reality check because Bob's idea that he should be able to live his entire life without anyone ever saying things that hurt his feelings is delusional.It seems respectful discourse and the sharing of points of view without the desire to trump is once again not possible. I will leave my part there.
and, once again, when you find it impossible to defend your position, you leave. At least until the next thread. If you dislike argument so incredibly much, one would think you'd stay away from inserting yourself in it.
I have absolutely no idea what she is talking about.
she ignores me
expect when she responds to me to tell me that she's ignoring me, and doesn't read my posts.
Funny, that. Don't you think?
I'm sure she'll claim that she's being "attacked" again. That's what she's good at.
(you'll have to forgive me. I'm 6 tequila shots in for the night, and I'm not particularly caring about much at the moment)Um... Okay again
Have fun with the tequila
Yes, Christian bigotry.
No, it's about not wanting to hear you evangelize. If everything in your faith has to do with evangelizing, then that is a serious problem.
Yet, it is evangelism that does not allow a "live and let live" ideal.
We just don't want to hear evangelism. Simple, really.
- Emile Rposted 11 years ago0
It bothers me that both sides appear to want to silence the other. That questions are asked such s 'why are you here?" "If you feel persecuted, why don't you leave?"
I accept that some people, no matter what, want to feel persecuted. However, their need is not a valid excuse to suggest they leave. The primary reason comments are made which make others feel persecuted is because the one commenting either feels persecuted or feels compelled to stand up for a group they believe to be persecuted. Instead of attempting to force others to voice views in a mirror image of our own we might be better served to listen with an open mind. But that is a pipe dream since many of us have already tried and convicted vast groups of people by our understanding and our experiences. We have no respect for their understanding or their experiences. Ours are always valid. Ours always take precedent.If that was in reference to my post, I never asked told her to leave or even suggested that she should. If she is actively seeking out situations that seem to cause her discomfort, that's her choice. I was just genuinely curious about her reasons.
I can't see any healthy reason to seek negative experiences.
I'm sure you can though. Please enlighten me.
every time I peep into these forums I can't help but think about the story about the tower of Babble.
All of a sudden, ... it was if everyone were speaking different languages ??? Supposedly, there was only one language at that time, So I think they were still speaking the same language, probably saying the same things yet no one understood the other??
ATM you are evangelizing the same way that you see Beth doing. Yet you can not see this ?
I haven't been posting very often lately because I see both sides of this argument, and agree to an extent with both. It is hard to debate under these circumstances. When the word religion or any other is spoken before ten people, there will be ten slightly different prospective's as to the point being made. I agree with some of these prospective's while disagreeing with some. I think this is true for everyone.
I don't think anyone is 100% correct in their views, even myself. If we think that we are ,,, we are not open minded. Should we all be open minded to ALL possibilities? I don't think so.
We would be wish-i-washy unable to make many decisions. Sometimes it is better to do something even if it is wrong rather than to do nothing at all.- Good one, Jerami! Thanks for the laugh.
We are designed to be what and who we are right. We play rules that will fulfill a grander plan. So True Believers and Followers of Jesus, chillax! Hold on to your faith. Dont be tired of waiting cause nothing is uncounted cause everything that's going on was already been prophesized (You know that even before)!
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it."
Matthew 7:13
Here's what I found somewhere over here:
THE DEVIL'S BEATITUDES
If Satan was to write his beatitudes, they would probably go something like this:
1. Blessed are those who are too tired, too busy, too distracted to spend an hour once a week with their fellow Christians. They are my best workers.
2. Blessed are those Christians who wait to be asked and expect to be thanked -- I can use them.
3. Blessed are the touchy who stop going to church -- they are my missionaries.
4. Blessed are the trouble makers -- they shall be called my children.
5. Blessed are the complainers -- I'm all ears to them.
6. Blessed are those who are bored with the minister's mannerisms and mistakes -- for they get nothing out of his sermons.
7. Blessed is the church member who expects to be invited to his own church -- for he is a part of the problem instead of the solution.
8. Blessed are those who gossip -- for they shall cause strife and divisions that please me.
9. Blessed are those who are easily offended -- for they will soon get angry and quit.
10. Blessed are those who do not give their offering to carry on God's work-- for they are my helpers.
11. Blessed is he who professes to love God but hates his brother and sister -- for he shall be with me forever.
12. Blessed are you who, when you read this think it is about other people and not yourself -- I've got you too!Makes sense to me. But I'm sure there will be some to understand something different than you said.
And maybe that's me. but I like it.Yes, that certainly describes many of the Christians here. Well said.
That's definitely correct but at least we found hope! not just hope but a treasure that is true, everlasting, and unfailing.
That's funny, when I was a Christian all I found was hatred, fear, racism, sexism, dishonesty, injustice, child abuse, murder, tyranny, and complete closed mindedness.
God works in mysterious ways.Thats when you follow Jesus, you have to take up your cross, cause Jesus was here, He did not live a good life, so who are we to complain...
He came to the aid of suffering humanity. He never pushed anything. He would add, "... for those who have ears to ear..." for those who are willing to to listen.
Definitely!coz He came not for the Healthy ones but for the sick.!!
Do you have any idea how to debate, at all, or are you on here solely for the purpose of evangelizing? If that's what you are here for, please stop, because that is what starts the bitter conflicts on these forum. If you are so enamored with God, to the point, that it has become impossible for you to stop preaching...then you should probably leave the forums.....and go to church.
Im not here to debate, I maybe here for evangelizing! cause GOD told us to preach the GOSPEL who dont know Jesus Christ. Thats it! and I love it!
Ah, so your sole purpose is to come here to start fights. And, you love it. How very sad.
Just passing by, If you will let yourself affected of what people tells
you, Your faith is not that strong! This Troubled Man will still be in trouble unless he finds JESUS. He's the only way!
GOD Bless you ALL!Yes, yes, ATM will burn in hell forever. We know.
If telling people they are evil and will burn for eternity is your idea of evangelizing I dare say you won't find many converts. Far better to live the life and offer love and understanding with neither judgement ("You will burn!") or a demand that all agree with your personal beliefs. Just accept people as they are and the message will get through far better than "YOU WILL BURN!!". Contrary to teaching of Christianity for centuries past, the carrot usually works better than the stick.burn in hell.....is that what is in store for me? yikes!..
Hey wilderness...how ya doin?Shakin' in my boots. This burning thing - it's pretty scary. Guess I'd better read up about god drowning the world or instructions on how to keep slaves.
Doing fine, though already missing the camping season. Trying to get out one more time before it's too cold - would have gone this week but the better half was sick.
You?i'm scared too....these threads make me so fearful sometimes.....but..........then i quickly forget..................................
i was hoping to camp on a beach close by this month....but the weather has changed so quickly...instead i'm going to see if i can rent a cabin sometime this fall/winter beach side......so i can hear the ocean roar etc etc..........and maybe have a fire on the beach at night and enjoy it one more time
later...good running into you.....
Sorry, this is not evangelism. There is a difference (though I'm not sure how many will recognize that difference) between evangelizing, ministering, and what some Christians do, which is fear mongering
Wilderness,
Im not judging just telling what I know and what's written on the Scripture, Im not saying though Im a christian Im not capable of sinning of course I am cause Im still a human thats why Jesus came down here. I just want to share this hope that I found to each of us here who dont know and its for you to decide whether you will accept it or ignore it. Our GOD is a GOD of freedom! He gives us liberty and wisdom on how to live. If you are His sheep you will listen to His voice.
Sometimes it came up to me before why GOD is so kind and providing all the things to me after all my sins, cause He wants to turn back to HIM before its too late! Based on Personal Experience and i know you have one too
God Bless !Sorry, but you need to take responsibility for your own actions, that is dishonest.
So far, you're showing you're evil and dishonest. What other traits has your religion taught you?Yes, dishonest. If someone is taking action, they must take responsibility for those actions.
I can quote paragraphs from Mein Kampf in regards to eliminating Jews because that was I believe, for example. Should I then tell others who disagree with me to talk to Hitler about it because he said those words?
So you choose to promote the threats of those ancient bullies who wrote these childish fairy tales, and somehow you think that you are causing no ill will?
This would sound appropriate if coming from a person living in the Dark Ages, but completely disturbing, coming from anyone living in the 21st century. Disturbing indeed.
As opposed to others Gods who are not?
Only if you cherry pick the bible. Other than that, the bible is a book written by very ignorant, extremely violent, and disturbed minds.
Sheep are pushed and smacked...and have dogs sicced on them to be kept in line. Even rats are more intelligent. And no matter how "good" the Shepard is, ultimately he's going to slaughter the sheep.
There is no such thing as sin....only stuff that ancient ignoramuses made up to keep you feeling desperately guilty for the rest of your life, just for being human. And what ever has been provided to you has been provided by you, yourself, or other humans. That's whom you should thank.Now that I take issue with. Sheep are actually very intelligent little animals. Having handled both sheep and rats (a.k.a snake food) I can personally attest that sheep are far, far more intelligent. At least they will run from a threat... the rat just sits there shivering until it gets eaten.
I know you're trying to prove a point but lay off the sheep dude.
I think you owe sheep everywhere an apology.You've feed sheep to snakes? What kind of snakes do you have?
Sorry, I've fed rats to snakes. I've only fed sheep to the family. Snakes would have trouble digesting the hooves. Have you ever dealt with a python with constipation? Messy that.
Sorry for the confusion.
I hereby apologize to any sheep that were offended by my unqualified statement.
Really? You're not judging? Hint: Telling ATM he's in real trouble with Jesus is a very plain indication that you have judged ATM and found him wanting in your god's eyes. He will "do the time" by burning for an eternity because he is "doing the crime" now.
I can only repeat that your evangelizing would be far more effective if it relied only on people seeing your actions rather than hearing your accusations, judgements and demands that others follow your god. Show them what you think god wants of people, don't just tell them while doing something else. When your life is a light, shining out and plainly showing what god's love can do, then you may find converts. Haranguing people to believe your mythology while your life actions shows that belief to provide nothing of value will not gain many converts.
Such a wise statement, wilderness. Such a simple concept too often ignored or just rejected altogether. Who knows how things could be if threats toward our fellow man were no longer part of our world....will we ever know?
Unlikely. Not, at least, until we cease to have an irrational desire to control others private lives.
As I have repeated several times this forum is not for christians to preach to atheists nor is it for atheists to put down and insults christians.
You're Correct and If the reason is for my faith in GOD, I will do without Hesitations!
Then, you freely admit you are the cause of conflict in the world, which means you must be evil and your God is evil.
Now THAT'S a very judging statement. And you don't even HAVE "religion"
I'm callin' a foul. LolIf folks here are only here to cause conflict in the world based on what they believe their God has told them to do, then that God must be evil. How is that a foul?
The ones who perceive that message falsely are evil. God is not involved. All who cry Lord, Lord, are not his (that is scripture). F-O-U-L...
Could you speak English, please. I don't understand gibberish.
I know... you refuse. "Gibberish" is my second language.
If you find it annoying for people to come into the public forum, trying to impose their beliefs on others to the point that one person tells another they should change their conduct, and leave the forums, why not practice what you preach? That is judging and preaching, as is much of what atheists post here...telling others what they should believe and do,..or not do.
If you don't like what Jezel has to say, ignore her, as many do you. Don't tell her to leave the forums because you don't like what she has to say. I rarely see anything you say I like, yet I have never asked you to leave, nor has anyone suggested to an atheist that they "should probably leave the forums", that I am aware of, yet you do. To quote or paraphrase a well known and prolific preacher in these parts, "This is why your beliefs cause so much conflict".Wow! Poor Christians are sooo persecuted. Maybe you should stop playing these childish mind games, and show some evidence for what you believe. Of course that's not possible, so you play the victim.
And just who are YOU?
Are you some kind of Commander in Chief or something? Was that a direct order?
Good for you. BTW, you should have ignored this one too....
How utterly absurd. I guess this imaginary God gives people imaginary wisdom.Looks like that hit the appropriate nerve. I just suggested you hold yourself to the same standard you were imposing. Why is that so upsetting to you?
Why does a Christian and our belief makes you so annoyed? It seems that you are so affected! Hope that someday GOD will show his grace upon you and do miracles in your life so that you can relate to things that we are talking about. Are still wondering why GOD is still providing us good things after all the sins what we have done to HIM?
Simply because He is hopeful that ONE DAY YOU EVERY HUMAN WILL TURN YOUR LIFE TO HIM!Because Christians are in the only religious cult that has successfully forced itself into every aspect of American culture. Your garbage is everywhere.
I don't see many Jewish symbols and ideas being used in music and movies. The only Muslims you see on TV are the radicals (that Christians are trying to convince us comprise their entire population, because--surprise, surprise--Christians are racist, too). Don't see many Hindus on the nightly news, and you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone preaching about the wonders of Zeus or Odin.
Instead, we get your insipid trash shoved down our throats everywhere we turn. It's annoying, it's disgusting, and people are getting sick of it.Are you the product of some revisionist history they teach these days or just not aware of American history at all? Perhaps visiting cities and landmarks of historical significance in the founding of the US would be beneficial, (pay particular attention to monuments and inscriptions), as well as reading the writings from then. Christianity has not "forced itself" in, it has always been a major part of the United States, it's development and it's culture. It is others who are trying to force it out.
Many, (myself included), could argue the unprecedented success of the US was primarily due to the Christian influence and it is the slow degradation of those standards that will likely be it's undoing.
Do you realize you were responding to someone who is not even from the US?
It appears you are also unaware of American demographics. It is a pretty small group who are "sick of it", and fewer still who are atheists. You may take some solace in knowing Christianity is being blended with other religions into something far from biblical Christianity, but far too many people are aware of spirituality for atheism to win the day.
You speak of all the marketing that includes religious references. Marketing is about playing to your demographic to influence them to spend their dollars with you. Why do you suppose you see the influence you are complaining of? Most people in the US respond favorably to it or the market would drive it out.
Don't let the disproportionate amount of anti-christian rhetoric here on HP, (even from self proclaimed "christians"), nor support of such from the press, academia and Hollywood, fool you regarding the actual prevailing views and sentiments of the country as a whole.
Well, it doesn't really happen on the forums, because my children don't read them...
However, it is actually against my religion to indoctrinate my children in any religion. I try my very best to shield them from religious propaganda, yet it's everywhere. Several times, my children and I have been approached by someone who just randomly started preaching at us. It's on billboards, it's on television, it's on the radio.
It makes it very difficult to raise my children according to my own faith. It interferes in my parenting. And I have to spend extra time trying to undo the harm that brainwashing has caused.
The seeping of Christianity into the public school system is also very high on the list of reasons why I home-school. Even if it weren't specifically against my religion, I find it a violation of my rights as a parent to have teachers brainwashing my children with their own personal agendas rather than teaching them.
In addition, the word of Christ has spread just about as much as it possibly can. There might be a remote village in Peru who hasn't had the pleasure of having diseased-ridden missionaries kill half of their tribe and completely eliminate their culture in the name of Christ... go there and preach. Christ's word has been appropriately spread throughout the world. Those who haven't converted have all the information available and choose to not be Christian. Christ never browbeat and harassed people into following him. You might want to actually act like him, rather than acting like a telemarketer who keeps calling even after there sales pitches fail.I wish believers would just grow up. Do you realize how disturbing it is to hear a middle aged adult asserting that there are monster under the bed, and wanting to be taken seriously?
I once related to the nonsense you are talking about. I come from a devoutly religious family. I choose not to be a blind delusional follower....anymore, believing in such childish and illogical BS as miracles....and imaginary bloodthirsty tyrannical Gods.
LAWL! God done got so mad at us, coz we hurt is wittle feelins'
Now he gone hurt us....
Adults believing in devils are no different from children who are afraid to go to sleep for fear that there is a monster under the bed. To those adult, I urge you to please grow up. How embarrassing.
there is actually a really good book called " the Genesis Secret" its a good murder novel but is layed over the top of religious mythology. it was random but I think you might like it. Its fiction but the writer uses a lot of real facts in the story to get you thinking just enough if his theory on how religion sprang up is real
Very interesting topics and subjects brought up. Each person has HIS/HER own premise regarding the subject at hand. Highly stimulating discussion I might add! Many religionists, especially the more traditional, dogmatic, and fundamentalistic do insist that EVERYONE should believe as THEY do.
It is the more traditional, dogmatic, orthodox, and fundamentalistic religionists who are against equal rights for women, especially regarding their reproductive freedoms and other forms of advancements especially as priests and in more authoritative religious positions, against advancements in the LBGT community, and other forms of humanistic progress. It is such religionists who are against any intelligent and comprehensive form of sex education in this country which explains the reason why the United States has a high rate of unplanned teenage pregnancy among 1st world nations.
I am not an atheist nor am I a religionist. I am a New Age spiritualist. I believe in the intelligent and logical premise of spirituality. I feel that spirituality and progress are inclusive. However, I am digressing. I believe that God in the context of the more traditional, dogmatic, and fundamentalistic religionist is passe in this postmodern, 21st century society and culture. I also would like to add that Atheists and other non-traditionalist spiritual have to RIGHT to their BELIEFS.
As far as I am concerned, Atheistic people are not problematic at all. Atheists DON'T go around FORCING their beliefs upon others the way many more dogmatic, traditionalist, and fundamentalist religionists DO on a CONSTANT basis. I have seen many such religionists strongly insist that THEIR methodology is THE ONLY one! They have the UNMITGATED GALL to LIVE other's lives when they CAN'T even LIVE their own! LEAVE the Atheists ALONE! Live and let live, each person is WHERE he/she is SUPPOSED to BE regarding his/her individual spiritual path. Some are Atheists, some are Nones, some are in traditional organized religions, some are purely spiritual, some are Agnostic and so on........but ALL are ONE in the eyes of the Universe, Godhead, or God. Who are WE to judge?
Everyone stop whining! I just ran across this shameful discussion. The question itself is inflammatory and deserves no response from anyone. This does us (writers) and HP no service. And, didn't your mamma tell you all to keep religion and politics to yourself? (Not that I always do, but GOODNESS this whole discussion is embarrassing to have run across.)
SHUT UP everyone! Nobody's convincing anyone of anything here from what I've read, you're all just lobbing arrows at each other--especially the "Christians" at the non-Christians. Disgraceful for us all, especially the self-proclaimed "Christians" who are acting (as a group) very un-Christian-like!
No agreements are being reached, no opinions changed; only ill will toward our fellow writers. Enough--let it end here. Period.Im sorry to disappoint you but my op came from a place of an honest opinion about the fanatical fundamental atheists who have no problems putting down anyone who doesn't share their belief. You are claiming that the christians are belittling the atheists more on here, quote "you're all just lobbing arrows at each other--especially the "Christians" at the non-Christians" the following are actual phrases from atheists to christians I've copied and pasted from this forum alone.
"Do you know how ridiculous your beliefs are?”
“Keep living in a world of make belief ”
“Your religion is full of bigotry”
"You keep your irrational beliefs to yourself and I promise not to tell you how silly they are”
"Believers are just little children who need to believe in fairy tales"
“If you believe garbage - that is your business"
“Only people with minds riddled with paranoia would allow themselves to be terrified by such primitive and make belief"
“To those adult, I urge you to please grow up. How embarrassing”
In the end no one is going to change anyones beliefs and opinions. To the christians, unless you showed god to an atheist on a silver platter he's no going to believe you. And to the athiests unless you reached into a chritians soul where faith has touched them, they are also not going to believe you. My op is not meant to be about changing beliefs nor for atheists to lash out and insult, it's only a question as to why these people time and time again go out of their way to deconvert and actually try take away some ones hope, faith and peace of mind at knowing their life has meaning or there is an a afterlife. (Whether a fairytale or not)
If my so called offensive OP was targeted at anyone, then it's only to those condescending fanatical atheist who dedicate their lives talking about a god who they actually dont believe in and have no problems offending those who do time and time again.Btw this discussion had come to a peaceful stop for the past two days before you came on here acting like the police and telling everyone to "SHUT UP" so thanks for fuelling it again
Dear Ranzi,
I am sorry you're not getting much encouragement or cheerleading. It is a sign of the times and the place. When you asked what is so evil about the following... no one backed you up. Not even me. But I want to tell you, now, that I liked your list and the answer to your question is:
NOTHING is so evil about
loving your enemies
loving each other,
forgiving one another,
judging not and you not being judged,
letting him who is without sin cast the first stone, (and we all know who said these words,)
of course!Im aware that many people of faith now days dont waste their time on forums debating fanatical atheist as they are taught not to and many of them quote this from the bible when you ask them why "do not throw your pearls to swine'' but I appreciate your support. And if we are going to examine the life and teaching of jesus alone (Whether fairytale or not) he is a perfect virtuous figure who spoke of nothing but love, forgiveness, kindness, tolerance and peace.
I do not believe they are fairy tales.
Can you imagine if such a man came to us today and did all those amazing things and said all those wonderful words, that they would not be somehow recorded and handed down generation after generation? (Not to open a can of worms or anything...)"nothing but love, forgiveness, kindness, tolerance, peace"....???????
"But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.’”
Luke 19:27
Furthermore, Jesus is also going to send all who don't believe that he is the Messiah to everlasting torment.
Nothing but love huh? Are you sure you've not been misinformed?
It seems that examining the life of Jesus was a bad idea.Someone has to fight evil. Someone has to fight for everlasting life. Someone has to defend the unseen world of Spirit.
...and necklaces do not look good on pigs anyway.Kathryn, I think you responded to the wrong post. I'm quite sure, as this response makes no sense at all in relation to my comment.
No, do not tempt me to say more or I shall be banned. Have you ever seen Miss Piggy wearing pearls? Not attractive at all.
I still fail to see what this has to do with ANYTHING that I have posted. In fact, in this context, it appears to be nothing but pure drivel. I would suggest that you go back and read through the most recent exchanges...then come back and post a PERTINENT response. Thanks
Who do YOU think the enemy is? I think the enemy is satanic delusion. Punishment means to banish delusion from the mind, so that devotion to Creator, Father, God, Omnipresent Spirit, Friend or Beloved, etc. can be felt, instead.
When he refers to himself he is referring to a higher consciousness within him and within us all. He is trying to help us free and awaken our own reality feedback. To do this we must "slaughter" delusional awareness. He hoped people would accept and contemplate these truths for their own benefit. There was never any forcing.
BTW One cannot take the whole bible literally. Some things are facts, some things are parables to illustrate higher truths.OK, I will answer that, but Whose ENEMY are we referring?
Why is there a need for humanity to assume that there is an enemy? And if there is not a physical enemy, then your leaders will just make up one, to keep all "spiritual minded people" in abject fear, so that their minds can be easily controlled from cradle to grave. You have nothing but hearsay from ancient and ignorant minds, creating imaginary enemies, whom you imagine that you are fighting. How frightening!
- you are not referring to luke 19:27 anymore at all, are you? So much for my not throwing the necklace. Aaaugh....
Here is a Latin word to the wise:
Forgetaboutit.
Neither Satanic Delusion or God has any relevance in the REAL world, and are just made up from the mind....fueled by ignorance and fear. Great for fairy tales, but have nothing to do with reality....at all.
Why do I need you to interpret that for me? I read it, I interpreted it for myself, I don't require the aid of anyone else, as I'm quite capable of comprehension. Your interpretation, on the other hand, appears to be abject pleading.
In other words, he was looking for vulnerable minds, who were as psychotic as he, himself, was. Anybody stating some of the nonsense that Jesus stated would be considered a mad man by logical standards.
And, of course, it is up to you to decide which is which. Seems absurd to me.How dare you tempt me to converse with you only to treat me with such verbal cruelty. I will NEVER forget what you have just done. I will NEVER respond to you again.
Good Bye to YOU.Yet he never attacked you personally or bullied you.
Hmmm...Oh I get it, you can and did call him a pig, and now you are offended?
Wow! Christians seem sooooo touchy. Shaky faith I presume. Next Christian I talk with, I'll just agree that Goddunnit.
Perfect timing for me!!!
Yes, I agree that goddunit! You don't have to for the sake of the Christian who feels that at least respect from you should be a given. I hate that I'm so late.Though I agree that Goddunnit, He hasn't answered even one of MY prayers--ever! But like a fearful slave, I choose to still believe in him.....like the boyfriend who never calls, when he says he will definitely call, or the groom that just leaves you standing at the alter, looking like a fool, or the person who borrows money, but forever dodges you when it's time to pay back...God treats us with the ultimate disrespect, but like a fearful slave, I will pretend that He still does answer all prayers, and that He performs miracles that never happened, and that He cares about people that He allows to starve to death.
I have seen the light, my sister in Christ. I am saved, sanctified, baptized, and filled with the Holy Ghost....and that with fire! Thank you, Jesus
I was led to believe he would respond with civility at least. He has not.
Good Bye to you, too.
It really is not worth it - trying to offer one's way of thinking- around here.
It really isn't.
That's why your religion causes so much conflict in the world, you're always fighting, you see evil everywhere and fight for things that have never been shown to exist.
This is why the OP is so hypocritical.
Why do you feel so offended in "fairy tales" as you so claim them to be? What business of yours to tell people what to believe? You were once a believer right? But now you feel enlightened and superior that you have found the light to atheism, so now you expect everyone to follow in your foot steps because your molecule of an opinion really matters. I guess you're special.
Could you PLEASE respond to the premise of my comment instead of attacking my personality? First, you need to stop being so angry, as anger blinds one to awareness. So please look at the way I have deconstructed your opinion about Jesus, and respond to that. OK, thank you.
In other words, given the information that I have presented, are you still standing by your original assertion of this wonderful Jesus? If yes, then, you need to deconstruct my argument.I have been silently following your comments closely for the past week and they seem to come from a place of hatred, condescension and of course superiority. The fact that you keep repeatedly telling adults who have faith in something to grow up and stop being childish only proves that you feel above in intellect to those who are spiritual and have faith
THE FOLLOWING ARE YOUR OWN WORDS I HAVE COPIED AND PASTED
" The Bible is a book of silly childish fairy tales. Only people with minds riddled with paranoia would allow themselves to be terrified by such primitive and foolish make-believe. "
"Wow! Poor Christians are sooo persecuted. Maybe you should stop playing these childish mind games"
"Adults believing in devils are no different from children who are afraid to go to sleep for fear that there is a monster"
"To those adult, I urge you to please grow up. How embarrassing."
"I wish believers would just grow up.'
"I choose not to be a blind delusional follower....anymore, believing in such childish and illogical BS as miracles....and imaginary bloodthirsty tyrannical Gods."
"What is your definition of deluded?"
It seems that you want to lock up every believer in a mental asylum. What is it to you if the bible keeps someone who has lost a daughter or son going? And what is it your business that some people may need a higher power to speak to (imaginary or not)
As for my standing by my original assertion of this wonderful Jesus? YES.. but I refuse to debate with you about the context of the bible as
1. as both you and I are not scholars.
2. Im not religious and only respect jesus as a historic figure
3. I agree with atheism. I just dont respect fanatics shoving it down people's throats
4. you seem to have ignored 99% of jesus's positive teachings and found one that is negative.
5. Jesus's last words before taking his last breath after being humiliared tortured were 'father forgive them for they do not know what they have done"
Anyway good luck in your mission at fighting with a God you don't believe in and taking pride in trying to force people to lose their faith. PeaceI have never met one person who has lost a son or a daughter that was arguing on forum boards about religion while the Bible was "keeping them going"
I doubt that getitrite is breaking into Christian houses while they are in mourning and telling them to face facts. By the time a grieving parent hits a writer's site forum to argue about religion, I'm assuming they have pretty much concreted their coping skills and learned how to deal with their grief.
I mean it's not like the Christians that are picketing Children's funerals... Never saw a group of Atheists do that.
Nor have I heard about a group of Atheists descending on a grieving parent at their house after reading an obituary of a dead child and trying to convert them to their non-religion to make them feel better... yet I know for sure that a certain religious group in my area does that.You seem to know alot. But I would appreciate it if you don't speak on my behalf and make assumptions about my world, experiences and people that I know.
I wasn't dear. I was making assumptions from MY world, my experiences and things that happened to ME.
But nice that you assume everything is about you.we both know that in reality, it's all about ME.
DUH.Sorry Mistress...
I forgot.
Please don't bring out the whips again.and who says christians and atheists can't get along :-)
I don't know. They're classified as a semi-range weapon. Maybe it puts people whipping distance apart.
True enough... although they are ranged weapons kinda like a halbred is a ranged weapon. And it would depend on whether it was a bull-whip or a cat-o-nine-tails or a riding crop.
I've never understood that distinction... because a bastard sword or even a claymore would be a ranged weapon but a standard broadsword wouldn't be.
I always thought the semi-ranged weapons should be limited to throwing knives and stars and thrown darts....blown darts of course would be true ranged.
... what were we talking about again?
you love it, and you know it. No use denying it now, my friend.
OMG stop the presses. Atheists, what the hell is your problem? Among your closest group of friends are *gasp* christians. Multiple. OMG. *smirks*
And hey, Deepes. I missed ya :-)And OH MY GOD Christians, I have pages and pages of conversations with... ATHEISTS *gasps* and *gasps more* there are even other Christians talking to them...
Yet no one tells anyone else they are stupid or delusional or going to hell or an abomination.
There is talk of leather... and more recently jello.
On second thought, don't go there... it's a silly place.Well, given the *ahem* history of whips and those of my particular bloodline in general, not so much..LOL
I think maybe this is your problem.. you and Getit .. Then again, those Christians that are your friends aren't considered "real" Christians because they are your friends, right?
Wait.. An atheist missed a Christian?!?!?!?! HAS THE WORLD GONE MAD?!?!?!?!?!?You're thinking about the WRONG kind of whips. What the heck is wrong with you? Why take it there. Geez.
Ruin a perfectly fun moment.
Are you saying that atheists are racist?
*smirks* sorry. Just picking a fight.
Has the world gone mad? See what happens when you go away?Are there more then one kind of whip? You Atheists say the strangest things.
what are you talking about? There are horse whips and cats of nine tails and scourges and riding crops and bull whips and...
nevermind. This is never going to end well.
The question wasn't about what the heck is wrong with me.. The Question is "Atheists, what the hell is your problem.. Try to stick to the subject, dear.
Still fun for me...LOL
Not all of you and no more than any other belief, or lack thereof
Getit a racist... CLASSIC!!
And you accuse US of picking fights? This is why your lack of belief causes so many fights and ill will *smirks*
Looks the same to me.. Gotta love consistency..
Hey bud, I don't have to out run the whip, just you. Us people of colour need to stick together.
- where is that darn hP banning-gremlin when you need him? Oh he'll ban me for some innocuous thing, but not for something as blatant and disgusting as this!
The report button is just under my post... hit it until your heart's content.
That's what you seem to be good at doing throughout this whole forum.Making assumptions, mind reading, knowing it all and talking down to others. Your self righteous sarcasm isn't fooling anyone
Umm... Okay.
So you are saying I am reading my own mind? You caught me.
Maybe you should try it.
Could you explain what has made you become so angry at atheists? I can tell that you are having a severe reaction to an event or encounter or something related to atheist. Was there some militant atheist who hurt a grieving Christian who happened to be close to you?
I rarely comment on these religious discussion threads, but I'm distracting myself from a problem so here I go. Getitrite will have her own response, but I"m actually going to try and answer your questions from my perspective of an atheist who usually makes a point of NOT discussing religion with hard core Christians.
Why do you feel so offended in "fairy tales" as you so claim them to be? I am not offended by fairy tales. I do, however, feel compelled to point out that fairy tales are not real. Yes, you have a right to believe in fairy tales, but you don't have a right to use those fairy to justify ANYTHING that affects me. When you do try to use them to justify, say, removal book from a public library, then I will laugh at you.
What business of yours to tell people what to believe? I don't believe it is my business to tell people what to believe. For example, I won't point out to a Christian man that he is using fairy tales to justify making every decision in his family, without consulting his wife. It doesn't affect me personally. I will remain silent. But if that Christian man uses fairy tales to justify denying women the right to vote, then I will laugh at him.
You were once a believer right? But now you feel enlightened and superior that you have found the light to atheism, so now you expect everyone to follow in your foot steps because your molecule of an opinion really matters. I guess you're special. I know this was directed at getitrite so I'll just say that I have never been a believer. Even as a child I could not accept the fairy tales in the bible as real. I do not expect everyone to follow in my footsteps, but at the same time, I will laugh at you if you expect me to accept your fairy tales as justification for ANYTHING that affects me.Thank you this is the most diplomatic Honest answer I have gotten so far. A secular society is quite important and I'm not with religious fanatics dictating our society. This question was addressed at those fundamental atheists that go above and beyond to insult people of faith and are so obsessed with this god who they actually don't believe in.
I really think I have figured it out, Ranzi... Some people try to get the goat of others ... tempt them to say something ban-able... and then wham!
They push the report button!
What a great sport!You may be right. If you have something to say just go straight to post and avoid the reply button.
As for me I will be away for a while. I wouldn't waste any more valuable time on haters if I was you. Good luck
Ranzi!!! Come back
I don't think we've met, but you have this "way"...
Quite a few of my buddies are here. And I just wanted to bring my spin.
So many of the things that you speak from a pretty neutral position are profound.
I appreciate your defense. I have been on the receiving end of so many of the objections and corrections and mind boggling explosions that you speak of.
I am Christian, I think... I love the Father in heaven. I cant stop. Though I have no theological degree, and not a foreign language fully grasped. I am positive that my words, spoken biblically, are solid. I have no doubt because I have been fully convinced and so positively so, that not a word of debauchery gets through. The nays are only searching for him. Fiercely I mean, why else would they spend their days "trying" to be convinced??? Lol
Thanks for the forum.Thanks for the encouragement cgenaea. I do stop by from time to time. Although forums can get a bit repetitive after a while.
I am aware of the constant repetition that you refer to; eventually becoming an "I know you are, but what am I" - tounge licking- foot stomping- back and forth petty war on both sides. Repetition is key, and I see that we all have that idea.
The "war" will continue until the end of the ages; as it has for centuries. If not here, then thousands of other places globally. As one who believes the biblical Jesus, I have to continue speaking it just as I believe it to be. Again, words don't hurt me. The name-calling is done by those whose points are slipping. God's written word is plain to me. I just speak it. None may hold a candle to it in my opinion. Many try; but fail. THEN the gloves come off.
Thanks for stopping by...
Ranzi, a delightful topic.
Both the rowdy atheists and holier-than-thou Fundamentalists share one disease: Ego.
I know a lot about ego. I'm a recovering egotist. (LOL)
Ego is an expression of self-righteousness and self-obsession. Ego is separateness -- the antithesis of love. Ego demands to be right and frequently insists that others are wrong. Even in groups, ego gets too rowdy, placing one group above another -- separate from them.
It's interesting to see the signs of this in society and everyday life. The Mainstream Media seems to use this mechanism with great skill -- dividing people and pitting them against one another with the deftness of a virtuoso conductor of a symphony.
God is love, because He is all about removing ego and returning us to a oneness of caring for each other to the exclusion of the selfish, false self. I've seen dozens of full-blown miracles, and that's saying a lot for a scientist.
Thanks for challenging us. Such discussions can help some of us who are open to learning new things.Yet this same God. whose miracles you have witnessed, can't stop thousands of children from dying everyday.....didn't stop 911....didn't stop the molesting priest....didn't stop the multitude of mass murderers, including Sandy Hook....and can't even perform the simple task of showing evidence of his existence. How does a scientist circumvent all of this and make such egregiously illogical statements?
All humans have an ego.
Seems you are still working on it.
You are talking about an super-ego that is controlling the ego. The ego's job is to decide when to give into the superego and the ID.
I do believe the ego does get tricked by the God illusion that the superego is running. One needs to ask himself if the superego is giving you what it wants or what the God you believe in wants. It seems to me that most people get what they want.You are freely expressing yourself, as we all are in this great vehicle, hP, for freedom speech. I am so thankful that the founding fathers established freedom of speech for anyone who has something to say! I am thankful to the Hp founders for a great site. I am thankful to the creators of personal computers. It is truly amazing how we can communicate and share ideas.
Sorry, I'm not American and therefore not subject to your founding fathers. There are laws governing freedom of speech which we should all take very seriously both in our own countries and here on HP.
Is that what you do for sport... tempt others to say something ban-able and then Wham...
Push the Button!
Yay for Boundaries!
BTW hP's headquarters are here in the land of freedom of speech.
But, I do agree that abuse of freedom of speech is detrimental.
Btw... that "saved sanctified..." (speech) kinda gets my goat too. That's just TOO saved. And as somebody already said; SELFish.
Listen to this: "Genaea, if you put your hand in that fire, it will really burn you badly!" Did I just "threaten" Genaea; or simply remind her of the consequence for her action?
In Christianity, there are consequences. As there are in EVERYTHING. The thing that really baffles me is the fact that when I speak of the rules put forth by Jesus, those who barely/rarely believe in him at all take such offense. I mean, if you tell me that the tooth fairy will burn me for not placing my teeth under my pillow, you'd hardly get s defensive response. I KNOW better. So, is the fear of hellfire so terrible if all God speech amounts to nonsense??? What pray-tell is the issue. Or better, "what the hell is your problem?"And if you have been warned about the tooth fairy daily for 30 years will it irritate you just a little to hear it again? Or would you perhaps take it as an indication that the speaker finds you a bit dim-witted? Or gullible? Or just demanding your attention because it makes them feel good to be important or superior?
What would your reaction be to being warned for the 10,000th time? The 100,000th? Before you become agitated, how may times have you seen a cross, showing the person saving you from hell, in your lifetime?Well, I definitely would not run directly to my "warners" im not gonna entertain them at all. I would stay far away from them and I would definitely not visit their forums. That is for sure! When I see the tooth fairy warners I run in the opposite direction.
Also yes DS the atheist knows tge bible well. But not the one who authorized its writings. Translation of scripture is lost to the mind of...not Christ.
- Sarahbbposted 11 years ago0
This person obviously never experienced a true spiritual connection with God. Which is fine because that is one of the great things about God. That great thing is called free will. He gives each one of us that choice. Those who have no spiritual connection just do not get it, that the bible is not meant to be a book of "great literature" or an "entertaining read", etc. It was meant to teach us about our past, present, and future. But most of all it is Gods letter and invitation to us to have a spiritual connection and relationship with him. Many will never understand it and that is only because they choose not to.
I am glad you have posted this, sarahbb.
It is quite arrogant to believe that YOU KNOW the answers to the questions posed. Since our conversation began there have been one "trip-up" question after another in the face of "obtained" knowledge. But the "wisdom" given by God comes via the spirit you receive after you find that you believe that he is...
No spirit, no "wisdom". Yes??? We can tslk about it till the cows come homeYou are taking things personal.
I am pointing out why Atheist have the problems with Christians that they have...Hence in keeping with the topic of this Forum Thread..."Atheists, What the hell is your Problem"....
And yes I do know the answer to the first question I asked you...(not arrogant...Biblical Studies provides the actual facts concerning the Text of the Bible itself...Faith based on the text not required for this type of question)
The second question is in regards to your faith (This is where bible based faith comes in...What do you believe and why type questions)...So there is no real correct answer...But the answer does need to be more than "because the Holy Spirit or God told me so"...If talking to a fellow Christian it can be that way...But when talking with an atheist one must use different tactics...For one who knows the bible and truly understands the bible and their faith these types of questions should be fairly easy to explain biblically within the realm of the faith and doctrine of the Christian Tradition they follow.
And as you say...They don't know God so they can't understand it from that point of view...So if one is truly concerned and wishes for them to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior, then one must be able to discuss and explain it to them from a perspective they can understand and relate to...You are taking things personal.
I have a feeling that you trust your education. I on the other hand trust the spirit. We have different conclusions. How can we not. The realms are different. The bible doesn't change to suit you. It commands that you bend and stretch to fit it. Or leave it. No way will the Lord change his tactical nature to climb into your date-box. You will NEVER be sure about the dates. Impossible. But if you choose to adhere to your urgings to learn what all the guesswork reports; ok. It is well with me. I choose to stick with what rings true for me. The instruction I believe to be left by God.I'll ask you the same question I just asked another on another forum and you just make a very good point.
"The bible doesn't change to suit you. It commands that you bend and stretch to fit it."
The bible says Jesus told his followers that one much live by the commandants, sell all you goods and give all you money to charity, leave you family (children included) and follow him. Have you done this yet or do you encourage people to do so? Remember you said the bible doesn't change for you, you must change for the bible.Funny... I just had the same conversation in my car. The admonition to sell all you have, is to the one whose focus and faith is their possessions. Remember Job was given many riches. His faith and focus was tested and he passed. God gave him riches. He didn't ban his faithful servant to hell. God gives good gifts to his children but the test is hard. Ask Job.
Your focus must be solely him. Leave your family? Yes, if they remove your focus. Not all. The LOVE of money is the evil part.That's OT vs NT stuff. If the OT was directed at particular people then that doesn't apply to us. While the NT is slave morality and that is what Jesus spoke of. The OT was owner morality, I deserve all this because I'm so good. The NT was love all equally and serve all well. You have managed to interpret the bible to get what you want. Very good, but that's not what the bible says Jesus says. You must follow the commandments, sell you stuff and give your money to charity, leave you spouse and children and follow Christ, just as the apostles did.
I have no reason to take anything personal...I am not defending my religious beliefs...
And of course I trust my education...Why would I not trust my education or my research for that matter. If I have conducted my research correctly then the conclusions that I reach should be as close to factual as possible. Same as with science...There are some things that cannot be proven 100%, but pending new information or data we take what we have as being a factual as the evidence can provide..
The whole point of our conversation was to answer the question of the topic of this thread...And I am fairly sure we have done that...
My personal opinion...and my opinion only...is that the problem of Atheists is the Christian who claims to know what is best for the atheist, but in truth does not even know what they are attempting to preach to begin with. And no I am not talking about anyone person in particular...
I based this opinion on conversations I have had with Atheists on religion....While at the end of the day they still don't agree with religion...They understand the points I make during our discussions.Yes! They understand. They are using the same tools that you use.
I do not understand why it is so hard to grasp the fact that to understand spirit you must use spirit. But the bible does point out that you cannot understand my topic (the bible) without the spirit of God to guide you. The brain closes out spiritual things because it doesn't add up. As you admit; you and science may only guess. The bible, a very old book used by many, lays it out plainly. If you believe its report, you are probably spiritual. If you believe another instead, then you probably are not spiritual. But you already know that right? To call an atheist spiritual would probably be an insult. Right?Umm.. Are we talking about understanding Spirit or the Bible? Because understanding the text of the bible does not require God...Understanding the faith built from the text...that is something different all together...
Until you are able to separate the difference between the text itself and the faith built from the text...You will always answer as you do...Which for the most part...Has nothing to do with the questions posed, the comments made...or the points of topic being discussed...
I know some very very spiritual/religious people who have no use what so ever with the bible. They allow God to guide them in their lives and feel the bible is not required for God to accomplish that.
You know..Just like the very first followers of God did prior to the bible even being written...Although it does require a solid understanding of history, context, nuance, politics, printing,figurative language and etymology
Any two or three of those things would do wonders. All of them would be great. None of them leads to the Westbourogh Baptist Church... or atheism... depends on the nature of the person reading.
Edit: Although to be honest, having most of that knowledge generally leads to atheism as well.Yes it can...But it can also strengthen faith...It just changes how one reads the bible and understands the meaning of it when it comes to their Faith.
Agreed. However it always is a good thing to put your religion in some kind of context. One of the biggest issues with the Bible-as far as being used as a tool to enslave/abuse-is the misunderstanding of the purpose of the entire book of Leviticus and the misinterpretation of the events in the story of Sodom.
Complete lack of understanding of context and history there... as well as some pretty big issues with etymology. Although the etymology is secondary to the lack of understanding of context.
History/Politics would help understand why certain verses in the bible that are used to support entire denominations don't necessarily mean what they think they do. For that a great big history and politics lesson about the whole Nicean thing would be great. (Etymology would help there too, but I probably have a bias)
For example, My grandmother has always assumed that the Apostle's creed was Biblical and needed to be treated as part of the bible (It was printed in the front of the family Bible)
And for the love of everything holy, could we please get a definition of "Parable" printed in big letters on the front page of every bible sold? A definition of Psalms would also be nice.
The bible is not designed to build faith. A relationship with God builds faith. Using what you learn from him through text builds faith. You cannot be a hearer only. Remember? Faith in motion living out God's word is what it takes to build faith. Hearing it is not enough. I really am not concerned about who decides to do whatsoever in their own decision making. Just telling about mine.
Um...Word of God isn't designed to build faith? Ok..I can agree with this Umm..You said above the text does not build faith?
Ahhh. Yes it is.
A relationship with your imaginary friend will perpetuate the delusion.
That's directly contradicting your first sentence.
I'm really not concerned about what you decide. Why do you insist in trying to tell us how to find God if you don't care. That's another contradiction.I'm just telling what I know. I cannot tell you what to know. You have decided. That is good enough for me. I am answering questions posed as much as I am able. I do not have a stake in your decision.
You are just telling us what you think. There is a difference. You know nothing of any afterlife, to make that claim is dishonest.
Remember? I believe the bible. So just like you claim to know the age of the earth because some book convinced you; I may claim to know what the bible tells me. The bible speaks of an afterlife often.
I dont claim I know the age of the universe. I may claim that the current thinking is..., but I have no idea the exact age. I know from looking at the stars that the universe is old as it takes millions of years for star light to reach us, but don't know anything about the exact age of the universe. You may believe the bible when it talks of a afterlife, but that's just a story so the only thing you know is that the bible talks of an afterlife. so you think there is an afterlife.
The bible may be just a story to you, but my story is different. I have the utmost respect for the bible. It say afterlife... afterlife. Btw: the bible doesn't give a timeline I don't think. In the ot, people lived hundreds of years. There were a few generations that way. We dont know how much time passed from Adam to Abraham at least. Not to mention after. The bible doesn't even follow the course of events sequentially. God has secrets known to no one. Time means nothing to God. He has all the time in the world.
If time means nothing to God as he is outside space-time, then God has NO time. Without time nothing gets done as he wouldn't have the time to get anything done.
Lol! Your post was deep. Not your name. Lol! You missn someone?
I think you're missing something.
The concept of a joke, for example.
Another thing: I don't think you understand the point that a lot of Christians know about their faith. They know how it started. They know who wrote the gospels and why. They know that each gospel had a specific purpose, and a specific audience. They know why and how and when they were canonized, and why that history is important to their current faith. Knowing the truth about the origins of the Christian faith does NOT have to contradict what you believe. It can enhance it. There are FACTS about the origins of the Bible and Christianity that many, many scholars and ever-day christians seek out, understand and embrace. Your unwillingness to do so leads others to believe that you're not interested in facts or truth - you're only open to your own interpretation of it and your beliefs. While that's fine for a personal faith, you take that further by insisting that your views are correct - when you prove time and time again that you don't know much about the histories of your own beliefs. I don't find that to be intellectually honest.I understand. But it is spiritually dishonest to use any other book to contradict what I already feel to be true. Any book that goes against the bible is rubbish to me. I CANNOT know who started what nor why. I was NOT there. I must strictly adhere to what is truth to me and let all other to fall in line with that. There is no "enhancement" in changing your mind every other day.
But you don't get your own truth. something is either true or its not. Perception change. Truth does not. You have continually stated that you don't know or care the facts pertaining to the truth of Christianity's origins. It's not important to you, yet you want everyone to accept it. Some of us are actually interested in history and facts, especially if we are supposed to believe in it. Your unwillingness to accept or come to terms with that while stubbornly clinging to your self admitted ignorance is what makes talking to you difficult. You say the spirit teaches you, yet other Christians have different interpretations. Either you are wrong or they are, yet you both claim ti have the spirit. How do you find which is true, or do you just assume that you are?
Feeling that something is true does not make it true. Are your feelings ever wrong, or are you claiming to be the only human being who is always right?Seems to me that you don't know your truth either. But you expect more from my spirit. You have this idea that educational knowledge out trumps spirit. You feel that if I dont "sway in the wind" with you, that my honesty and truth can be called dishonest.
no ay dé mí... you must call it as "you" see it too.
To negate my "opinion" because you have spent years reading about it so your "opinion" carries more weight is ludacris. I have spent years living it out. The contrasts are extraordinary.
I have not attempted to convert anyone. I have not entered a popularity contest. I have no intention of seeing things your openminded way. I am not going to change MY mind. I don't care if you LIKE what I have to say. And if you will keep the conversation alive; by all means! I can do this a long time.
That's funny, but I have heard my friend, who claims to talk to the dead, say similar things. Of course he can't explain how one can use something other than intellect(consciousness)as a mode of comprehension. Could you explain how that can be done? ThanksStep1: Realize that most of your questions concerning "facts" will never be answered.
(Factual evidence has everything to do with faith that somebody calibrated correctly. Trust that?)
Step2: Believe that God is there so you can ask him for clarification.
Step3: Ask earnestly.
Step4: Wait on the Lord and be of good courage! He's coming...
Step5: Prepare to be amazed.
This is truth according to the bible. But it takes humility. Know how finite your capabilities are so that when you hear what goes against what "the almighty" you have already pieced together; you don't get scared and run. Your best knowledge is nothing in comparison. Mine too!So I don't actually walk erect, on two legs then, but I only have FAITH that somebody calibrated correctly? Makes perfect sense.
Wouldn't it be a whole lot better if God was ACTUALLY there, instead of my having to BELIEVE that He is there? What you have done, here, is prepared a table to serve a meal of dishonesty. Where is the moral barometer?
Let's start with Toss Up Salad
If this works, then why do people asking the same God, the same questions, get different and conflicting answers.....to the same questions?
First course, Nutmeat
Nothing required but gullibility and dishonesty.
Second course, Scrambled Brains.
Tricking the mind can sometimes be amazing. It's called hypnosis, which is the subconscious' reaction to suggestions. You may have heard of it. Sorry to inform you, but it has nothing to do with reality, and any imaginary entities remain imaginary after hypnosis ceases.
And of course, Pu Pu Platter, along with Jesus Helper, and deep fried Ice Dream.
"I have no intention of seeing things your openminded way. I am not going to change MY mind. I don't care if you LIKE what I have to say."
Question: How do you reconcile such comments to your listener with Matthew 7:12?If you spend years living with heart disease, do you know more about that disease than the physician who has spent years reading about the ailment....actually studying it? Would you dismiss the physicians recommendation, and stick with your conjecture, and "feelings" about the disease?
No, because like me (and a darn good example of what I'm saying) the heart doctor not only read about heart disease. He has ACTUALLY put what he read about into PRACTICE... thanks for that push and faith-booster.
One thing to add...The Doctor was instructed first, then continued to read ALL material on the topic and study, all the while practicing as well...
You and the doctor are not quite the same...You have not studied ALL material...nor have you been formally instructed as the doctor..(But you will say God instructed you)... you have read one book... and began a practice based only on your reading of a single book...You got me twisted. (Your opinion of me is slightly off) I listens to my doctor; unless I don't want to. I realize he has anatomical expertise. He's been practicing what he preaches.
Umm.. I was commenting on the fact that you were saying that you and a doctor are the same in "practice"...Not that you do or do not listen to your doctor..
In this manner we are: he/she reads and then puts into practice what they read about. I, read and then I put into practice what I read about. I thought you got that the last time I said it. Oh! I forgot. Break it down.
- and once again I shall repeat...Do you read the post you are responding to prior to responding?
I don't know why you're even still talking to her. She has already said she doesn't care to hear anyone's voice but her own.
Or in this case read anyone's text but her own.
Let her preach to empty pews. Maybe she can convince the wood that she knows everything.Melissa, I am with you on this. Why go into histrionics and melodramatics over the ethical, religious, and spiritual beliefs of others. It 's THEIR business really and it is THEIR right as long as they DON'T infringe upon others. Aren't there more pressing issues such as child abuse, homelessness, joblessness, etc.
To be honest...I have now switched from viewing this as a relious discussion to more of a Philosophy/Psychology type for my own study...A little hobby of mine outside the realm of Religion...As these types of things tend to go hand in hand...
Not to mention...I find the thought processes of Fundementalist Christians to be quite intriguing. I have a study that I have been conducting for about the last year on this type of thought process and its effect on a persons mental status and capabilities...(With more than the Religious Fundementalist...I look at all types of Fundementalist type behavior)...So far it has been quite interesting with the results...If I decide to publish the findings, I'll be sure to let you know..I am sure it would be something you would be interested in reading.
Admitting to willful ignorance is fine and is being honest, at the very least, we understand where you're coming from and know that you refuse to learn anything and that presenting facts to you is a waste of time. No problem.
ATM, your "facts" are faith-based. You believe another message. You aint seen no scrolls or excavation sites or scientific dating processes. Yet you BELIEVE what "they" say. No questions. You take "their" yoke upon you. Enjoy!
I believe the other message. And I enjoy.Yes, I understand you deny or reject facts, that is the dishonesty your religion teaches you to embrace.
Sorry, but there are no "messages" in facts.
Yes, I understand you have no education or know what entails getting an education and what is involved in scientific understanding.
Yes, I know you believe in myths and superstitions and reject facts.In terms of an education, not according to your posts here, you haven't.
Great! Now can I get your OPINION on something else? What shoes go best with denim dresses?
Is that what you perceive as an education?
"Spirit" has never been shown to exist in any way, shape or form, hence it cannot offer any knowledge in any way, shape or form. An education therefore does not trump "spirit", it precludes the irrational beliefs that compel the believer to believe they have knowledge, when in fact they only have irrational beliefs in light of an education.
Well I guess I understand "gibberish" so which language have you switched over to?
This thread is getting more and more disturbing to see. The question is 'atheists what the hell is your problem?' Not 'is god real?, or 'can everyone have an annoying never ending argument about who god is and if he's real, just for the sake of debating. . Anyone who is going to be involved in a religious debate that goes for more than five threads on one comment CHRISTIAN or ATHEIST I WILL HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO REPORT UNDER (posted in wrong forum) but this post is not theology or bible studies. I'm really sorry
Time and time again I have been criticized about the hypocrisy of my question. So just to explain to you the purpose of my question. An athiest agnostic myself it's hard for me to comprehend there's a god. I hold no resentment or a hatred for a god because I simply dont believe he/she/it exists. And as an atheist nothing is going to make me shut down faster and not want to believe in god when you try ram your beliefs down my throat.
So this is the inspiration of my question, I had a suicidal friend who told me faith in god alone had saved his life, a junkie client who changed her life around when she found god and an aunty who has lost three children and a husband who only gets by and not in a mental hospital because of the hope she believes she will see them again. So although perhaps in my perception of the world, they are blind, but who am I to try to take away their faith. I personally have an atheist friend who makes it his mission in deconverting people and has being quite successful. As well I have attended both atheist meetings and Christian meetings and I have found that the real haters were the atheists, hating a god they don't believe in and talking as though they are higher in intellect than people of faith. What I found in Christian meetings is they were preaching about love, peace and forgiveness and talking of this man jesus who I admire like you would Buddha or gandi. Yes for centuries religion has caused much grief, but there are sociopaths hiding behind many different orginisations that have access to the vulnerable (teachers, carers, social workers, politicians, police officers) so is it religion or just bad people hiding behind religion?
So in the end although you may not agree with another person's model of the world, it's important to respect it. As atheists understanding that we are all wired differently and for centuries human kind has needed faith, whether it was in this zeus, the sun or Jesus. It's unacceptable calling a person of faith a child, sheep, delusional, unintelligent, grow up, crazy etc. I have no objection when atheists defend their right to be an atheist, challenge annoying bible bashers, and are proud of who they are. My question was targeted towards the more fundamentals who seem more like an extereme religion, who preach their way and belittles anyone as delusional that refuses to follow.Report away, you know where the button is. However you are not a moderator and have no control over what anyone writes in this forum.
If we had that ability, I'd ask you to kindly keep your irrelevant life story out of it.Remember you asked me about my reason for posting this comment, and now you want to be rude and attack me personally?
Once again, you know where the report button is. The irony of it is I'm a Christian and you've pronounced yourself atheist. And I don't believe I asked your reasons for anything. I already know your reasons...
Thank you, thanks so much for kindly reminding me that I know where this report button is. Much appreciated kind helpful hubber
But don't worry, i would never report the most entertaining and helpful hubber. I think you're just amazing and so kind
Peace and loveYeah, the fact I've done nothing reportable has nothing to do with it. Good luck with that.
Dear Melissa,
To clarify, I was basically answering your questions when I opened up with my ( irrelevant life story) as you have kindly put it.
THIS IS YOUR QUESTION in your own words.
"So what dog do you have in this fight? Did someone call you a mean name so you decided to speak for all Christianity? Who gave you that right? I would suggest if someone called you a name you might want to think about whether it fit instead of trying to get everybody on your side."
So to put it mildly I answered your question about 'what dog I have in this fight' and no no one called me a mean name, nor am I speaking on behalf of all chritians. But you always seem so great at makinh assumptions.
But if you want to be a mean person about my reasons and insensitive about my life story then im sorry for you that you cannot have empathy, but be mean and hateful instead, as well as attack me and be rude in every post I make.
In the end I just feel sorry for you and will not engage in anymore of your rudeness towards me.I never attacked you dear. You need to learn the difference between being personally attacked and being offended. The first is my doing, the later is yours.
However you have just personally attacked me. No my ideas or my faith, me personally.
Maybe one day you will learn the difference... as will the other people you are "defending"
However since I don't care if you think I'm a mean person, and I don't care if you think I lack empathy over your completely unrelated life story and since I certainly don't care if you think I'm hateful... the general response to your post is apathy. Of course my general response to most theatrical posts is apathy.
Have a good day.
What a great question that I've often wondered my self. Why not just let people be. Although unfortunately the original question has been turned into a bible analysis forum with no end solution. Why the hell dont we all just accept and respect each others views dammit
- Sarahbbposted 11 years ago0
As I stated last night, God gives each of us free will. Those of you who are atheist have the right to be atheist but I have made the choice to go with the undeniable stirring in my soul to accept God and enter into an amazing lifelong relationship with him. Each of us at some point in our life will make that decision one way or the other. I respect your right to make that choice either way. I hate no one. I may not agree with one and their opinion but I respect their right to have it. But here is a true and insightful way of contemplating this whole issue, if I as a Christian am wrong and you as an atheist are right then we both lose nothing and this conversation means nothing to anyone , But if I am right then this conversation means everything. There is peace in my soul.
Before anyone else does it: Here's a link to your logical argument and all the arguments against it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wagertry this as an explanation of why Pascal's wager is not convincing - nor is it a good argument to begin with. An atheist isn't going to buy it. Ever. Appealing to fear or emotion is not a correct path to truth or open discussion.
http://jmcfarland.hubpages.com/hub/The- … cals-Wagerjm I'm a big fan. Following this forum because I enjoy your writing. You should write a book
The viewpoint that you "lose nothing" but have the chance of "winning everything" by believing in a God has some logical difficulties.
(Let me see if I can channel Mark or ATM here)
1. If there is the possibility of one God, there is the possibility of more than one God. By worshiping the God you worship, you could make another unhappy. Hence, it would be worse than someone not worshiping any God.
2. You must assume that an atheist has control over their beliefs... or even that a believer does... without a change in circumstance. If you assume they can't then you have to believe that God doesn't care if belief is sincere.
3. If you assume that people can believe by choice, then you have to admit that you have a God that doesn't care if people worship him or if they just come to him to avoid punishment (hell). You also have to believe that God has the ability to keep you from Hell. In that case you can't possibly continue thinking of a God as benevolent... as he is just as willing to have people following him out of fear than out of love. In short, God is a tyrant.
4. To follow God just to hedge a wager kinda goes against that don't be selfish thing.
5. It assumes that a belief in God isn't going to be costly in life. That's obviously blatantly false to certain people. They would have real losses by believing in God and the Bible to be cheated by there not being a God/Afterlife. A good example of this is a homosexual who never has a relationship because they don't want to violate "God's will" just to die and there be no afterlife. That person has essentially given up their happiness for something not there. Same for suicide bombers/martyrs etc.
Did I get it all atheists?Okay makes more sense. The reason I stopped believing in God was I found him to be an egomaniac narcissist So im not really sure if I was waging a war with god or I didn't believe in him. On that note I have a home sexual friend that became a priest so he could overcome temptation.
Okay makes more sense. The reason I stopped believing in God was I found him to be an egomaniac narcissist So im not really sure if I was waging a war with god or I didn't believe in him. On that note I have a home sexual friend that became a priest so he could overcome temptation.
Even some Christians have an issue with Pascal's Wager..
http://deepesmind.hubpages.com/hub/Pasc … elism-Tool
I do not believe in God, as it has not been proven that He exists, but I would not call myself an atheist, because to me, atheists, as you said are just trying to destroy what other people believe in. As I said before, I don't believe in God, and I don't have a religion, but I do believe that each person should be able to choose what or who they believe in, and I don't think atheists are being correct. They might not believe in the same as other people, but they also don't have the right to change what other people believe in.
You must first believe that he is; and is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Or else you cannot expect to receive from him. (Scripture) you say "you will say God instructed you" as if... how vain... if God's instruction is different than the doctors, guess what... Otherwise, doc wins.
Wow...Seriously...You really must read the post you are commenting on...
If this is an example of how you read and understand the bible....well...I won't even finish this statement...Those who understand will know what the ending is...Dear Cgenaea:
Some just can't get the concept of faith. Some have intuition and therefore faith.The only classifications for faith is yes you believe or no you don't. Do you believe Darwin (have faith in his studies)? You were not there when he conducted his research. You don't know he correctly read or interpreted his findings. You have belief without seeing. (Not you per se)
No belief no understanding. It does not work the other way around.Yes, Cgenaea,
What you have explained concerning your beliefs, is very interesting.
My understanding, however, (and therefore belief,) is that understanding is the basis of belief. I accept the ancient wisdom of Krishna who taught that Intuition provides direct perception of the invisible spiritual realm, which is very rich. It is my understanding that some metaphysical things, to be understood, must be perceived directly in this manner. And it is possible. The kingdom of heaven is really to be found by going within where the third eye perceives the metaphysical realm of existence directly. It takes practice. Meditation practice, specifically.
TWIUI *The way I understand it.*
P.S. The proper response is not to argue... but to say, "Oh, that is very interesting," since I did not present it as a truth... but rather my own understanding and therefore, just MY belief, which I have a right to have. Not pushing anything as absolute Truth is the way to forum harmoniously in the religious arena.Is that: The way you understand makes up the core of your belief? If so, I agree. You cannot understand spirit w/o spirit. The spirit helps you to understand, otherwise, you don't/won't get it.
TWIUI
the correct response is to provide as much info for the sake of info. There is no danger here. Shaking the dust is not applicable. I know how far far enough is. When the info is rejected; "fair enough" is my response. However, they don't stop probing. I can stay as long as there are probes for the bible.
This is willful dishonesty. You have no clue what Darwin wrote about in his book, "On the Origin of Species" nor does it have anything to do with belief. Of course, I understand your entire worldview is based on beliefs and not on understanding anything. That is a classic example of the brainwashed mind.
No creationism for you. Well, some aspects of evolution fit well with creationism.
You wouldn't know that as you have no clue about evolution. Either way, creationism is pure bunkum.
Dear A Troubled Man,
You do not need to be so rude. You do not have to argue. I wish you could find a more harmonious way to communicate. Perhaps If you used the pronoun * I * your message would be more acceptable to others: e.g." I consider belief without understanding to be a willful sort of dishonesty." You could further (and helpfully) explain what classifies as a brainwashed mind without having to attack one's, "entire world view." In my observation, you emit way too much (negative) emotion.
P.S. Feel free to critique the presentations of any of my arguments, as I believe we really can learn from one another.
Just tryin' to be helpful.Yes, I understand that your irrational religious beliefs teach you that I am evil and should be more harmonious to those who embrace those who consider me evil. It's perfectly fine that you and other believers think I'll fry for an eternity, but it's not fine that we call your irrational beliefs for what they are.
Feeling persecuted, perhaps?It seems from what you have explained that you are *surmising* that all of us have" irrational religious beliefs" and consider you evil. WE *surmise* that there is a God and you bitterly complain, but YOU *surmise* that others think you'll, "fry for an eternity," and it is perfectly fine. A bit of a double standard is being allowed on your part as far as the surmising goes.
Just what I perceive.
BTW. I sure don't think those things regarding you or any one! How many here do?Sorry, double standard? Is that what you actually said? Is that supposed to be a joke?
Me bitterly complaining --->How many here think you will fry for an eternity or that you are evil? Whatever your guess, it is wrong. You have no way of knowing. So, why do you continually exhibit emotional negativity toward anyone who does not share your beliefs and who is merely participating in a public forum?
Uh, the ones who told me that. Duh.
More funny jokes. You're quite the comedian.
Naugh-ty-NAUGH-ty. Your socialization went out the window too? Tsk-tsk-tsk.
Very peaceful sounding. Krishna? It seems as if you represent that belief wholeheartedly. It has been my understanding that his followers displayed such calm. Thank you. Peaceful is always good.
Yes, because the way to the kingdom of heaven is calmness and silence in meditation. Very simple really. and such a relief! just contemplate the spirit who made us and loves us.
TWISI
(...based on ancient teachings of india, which Jesus completely lived, and the bible, properly understood.)That is where WE differ. For me, the way to the kingdom of heaven is faith in the sacrifice and teaching of Jesus. I have no angst for any of your beliefs. And truthfully, the atheistic beliefs are fine with me. They NEVER hear me bring up the fire. I do not operate that way. We are judged by our own standard. (In my book) I simply explain things how I see them. There is never a demand or ultimatum from my lips. I say what the bible says. And no, the part about hell is left out unless someone else brings it up. I truly have faith in the words of the bible. Especially the words of Jesus. He is my example. All else must fall in linewith what he teaches first, it is our right to feel what we want. I take that from no one.
yep. Just keep stating that and reminding others of your respect for their right to believe as they so choose.
Thats my advice.
Because: When one is holding authority over another, resistance comes into play...
its human nature...
common to each one of us...
- due to the 100% propensity we have to guide our own wills, thoughts and actions.Sorry, but religions don't respect people, especially those who don't follow them, hence we have no respect for those religions.
You forgot to add, "It is my understanding" that not one single religion respects anyone whether they are members of a congregation, or homeless on the streets, in hospitals, or working in high-rises and furthermore, whether they are theists or atheists. All people are treated with equal disrespect by all religions... Is this what you have deducted?
No matter what your response is to this question, you are absolutely entitled to your own deductions and conclusions regarding anything.
Do You understand?
One does not have to apologize for one's personal view of things. It hurts NO ONE!Of course, you mistake the actions of people and societies for the intolerance, hatred and bigotry of religions.
Why do you say, "Of course?" I can't get past those two first words to even try to decode the rest of the sentence. Explain to a simple mind please! Also explain h o w I make some sort of "mistake"... and what "actions" specifically are you referring to.
Are you serious? Are you actually saying you can't comprehend what I wrote and you want me to dumb it down?
see editing above. Yes, I do need clarification.
What actions? What is my mistake? It is like a riddle to me.*To interpret: It is my understanding that, naturally one mistakes the negative actions of people and societies for the negative actions of religions.
* To Comment: What is the difference between *religions* and *people?* Are they not intrinsically connected? The essence of a religion is how it is interpreted by the group of people adhering to any religious set of beliefs... and the different sets of beliefs are in the millions, perhaps! Even within the Christian religion! The question becomes, which one set of religious beliefs are YOU most offended by, ATM?The religions themselves are entirely offensive, all of them.
I understand. But for the record: I do not respect all other's beliefs. Talk about dishonest...
I respect everyone's right to believe as they wish. And I do express that.I agree. Respecting or disrespecting the beliefs of others is not the point. I respect their right to believe anything they want to believe. Their beliefs cannot hurt me or anyone in any way.
...Until they start to proclaim them as truths and INSIST that others also accept them as truths. It is this tyrannic insistence which is totally unjust.Not even God will force belief. I feel that saying exactly what I feel to be true is simply that. I know what I know for me. I firmly believe it to be fact. MY higher power confirms that. How can i speak differently? I know that my assurance ruffles some feathers but that's ok. My peace comes in the fact that my popularity is unimportant. Political correctness is not my goal. The bible is precious to me. I know why. I tell why. Truth is truth. I am not superior to anyone in my heart/mind. The bible says that my God is superior. I believe that with every fiber... the feedback that I receive is nothing less than brutal. It seems as if they want to be convinced. But they may only find that in God. Not Genaea. Not school. Not church. Not within. When I am asked no question or given a misguided understanding to respond to and receive a flat "you're crazy!!!" I do say "as you wish". But do you think it stops there? Not hardly. My position is firm but fair. NOBODY is asked to believe as I. NOBODY is coerced with fire and brimstone. And NOBODY is discounted. I am grateful. I am giving biblical truth that I am given. Not recruiting.
Yes.
Denying a belief = injustice.
Insisting a belief = injustice.
So, now we can all get along without dredging up resentment and rejection!
The boundary is in respecting each other's right to think for themselves... And presenting our points of view as only our own.
"It is MY belief based on MY understanding that..."
Then we can really learn from each other.
My Suggestion Only.
(Inspiring and encouraging is much different that forcing and expecting.)
Thanks for sharing, Cgenaea.The bible calls it war/battle. Do you agree? Ideally, we could get along. But that won't happen until I guess maybe even the next 15 minutes. We don't know. As long as God and atheists coexist, war. Spirit vs carnality/the mind. I have practiced your method of live and let live in harmony together with a coke.
but that is not good enough. My beliefs are a thorn in the side of many. I think that if I say just once that I have doubt, I will be acceptable. But I don't have doubt. You know, these people frown upon an ASSumed dishonesty.Yes, that is why your religion causes so much conflict in the world. It would appear that is what you prefer, war and battle, war mongering.
Your beliefs, properly presented, are not harmful to others. We must not violate the peace of mind that God gives each of us. Ever. Attitude is everything in religious matters and a good one is based on love. A snarky, pompous attitude will not win hearts. Confidence, however is sometimes misread as arrogance. And that is unfortunate. Walk away when you are mis-read. Don't do battle. Jesus would add, "...for he who has the ears to hear." When one does not have the willingness to see the honest place you are coming from, don't carry on. Just don't. Why bother? I am talking specifically to you who wanted my view point. It is my advice to you. No one else.
It is my belief and understanding that the battle is only with satanic delusion. That is our only enemy. Not each other. Also remember to hate the sin, not the sinner. Ignore what you do not agree with, here.
The Way I see It.Properly presented... you mean with a sense of doubt? I feel I properly present already snd still, hisses and tomatoes. No problem. I will not sprinkle a maybe here nor a possibly there. I have firm convictions. I stand firm. I do not doubt what I say regarding God or the bible. I won't pretend to. It's not of benefit to anyone if I water it down. They will be fiercely fired-up about Christ anyway. And they defend their stance. Me too...
Well see again I say. Popularity is nothing. Peace comes from God. (My opinion) Disturb their peace of mind??? Uh, who here is "peaceful" aside from you? Another perspective is what I contribute. It is the one mostly challenged. Because I tack on confidence in it? We are all adults. I think... if one may be confidently asserting that there is no God; I may confidently assert as well. I am not hurt. Why would anyone else be? Arrogant? Me? Never. This "one thing" I do know...
You too are no different than Cgenaea in that your always seeing enemies to do battle with and to spread hatred. That is why your religion causes so much conflict in the world. You even do battle with each other.
No! Properly presented with the statement..."It is my belief based on my understanding..." You have to hold onto your belief and not drop it on someone else's head!
But, if that's what you wish to do, because you WANT to drop it on some else's head and see the person recoil in pain, endure concussion symptoms, and cause brain damage... have at it! By all means!!!! Enjoy yourself! (...all the while sporting a glowing pious halo!)
But, don't cry when your opponent picks up a bigger pile of belief and drops it on YOUR head!
I have a feeling we are now quite finished.
C YA.Notice that these two Christians are perfect examples of my thread, "Do Atheists Reject God?" in that God is the self, the ego of each person.
Thanks to the both of you for proving my point.You took the words right out of my mouth, it must have been while you were...
It is my understanding... no wait; from the impression that I received; uuugh! She's not Christian; she follows the teaching of Krishna I firmly believe from my understanding.
Yes, I understand believers who evangelize never take responsibility for their actions, that is why they cause so much conflict in the world.
* To interpret: It is my understanding that believers seek to convert others to Christianity. They do this in ways which are tyrannical and disrespectful. Furthermore, they never take responsibility for the conflict and grief they cause in the world.
* To comment: I agree. For instance, our entire nation has never been the same since the twin towers came down. So, yes, radical religionists, (including fundamentalist Christians and Muslims, etc.) have caused and continue to cause pain and suffering in the name of an imagined being. You are right, ATM. You are right. But not all Christians or Muslims are fundamentalists or radicals. I would be careful with that broad paintbrush....Wow, I must say Kathryn, that is one of the first sane things you've said in a long time. Bravo!
But, you have been painting with broad strokes! What about that? I know so many good Christians. What about them? Have you never known a nice sweet one????
You don't seem to understand that by nature, all people are good, it is religions that make good people do bad things.
It is your understanding that Religion makes Good People do bad things. And People by nature when they are born are "good." They would continue to be "good" if the precepts of religion did not intrude or infuse into their minds. What is the example of a naturally good person. How would he be... uh oh... a New Forum Thread in the making...
'What are the characteristics and attributes of a (natural) person who has never been influenced by religious doctrines, principles or precepts??" Don't worry, I won't post it.
Here is another possible forum topic:
"In what ways does does religion make good people do do bad things?"
I do not want to see the answers to this query.
Ostrich? yes.
What about your actions...? What are you responsible for? What about the harm you cause? or the personal attacks aimed at the Host? No one has called you a Fool, idiot, stupid, jackass etc. Yet, all you have done is attack with unfounded comments...in fact, you hadn't even written a Hub in your 2 years in this community. But you attack, attack, attack... to what end to, bring confusion to the table? To piss off the readers and writers? Not not even sure "A Troubled Man"(hmm) if you even answered the questioned asked.
I take responsibility for my actions, that is the difference. I don't resort to shifting it to invisible super beings.
What personal attacks?
I have been called a lot of names here. I have not called anyone those names. What is your point?
If you say so.
So what?
This is a public forum in which I am criticizing religions and religious beliefs. Deal with it.
You know, this is becoming a real world, this internet. We can prevent it from becoming a place of rudeness and emotional turmoil. Hint: One does not have to respond to rudeness and emotional accusations...
at all.You're right. But it is the bite of bitterness that fuels this conversation. People hate to hear me say I'm sure whilst they bumble around books to study (in its ENTIRETY) guesswork. The brainsearch of the bible is unfulfilling. When I get satisfaction from a thing that has disappointed them, they come out kicking and screaming. But I always bring my shield.
Actually, some scientists belief that there is a portion of the brain devoted to religion. Say hello to neurotheology. It is my opinion that He did build us with faith built in.
http://www.livescience.com/3366-scienti … brain.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/20 … rain.shtmlI believe that too. It is ours to do as we wish.
Oh for crying out loud. Every thought we have originates from a part of the brain. Reading, speaking and reasoning have particular brain areas that are activated when doing that particular thing. Why not have a area dedicated to gullibility. I've decided to use that section for something worthwhile.
Where do the impulses for brain activities originate? Then what makes that happen? And so on... I just think that you are giving the brain too much credit. Now I could give you a plus if my actions were predictable and automatic or scripted. But I get to decide. I get to make myself THINK differently if I want. I may change my behavior, or thought at my whim. Is my brain wired to change itself as such?
Why do they have to come from anywhere? Thinking is what brains do. Just like lungs breath and muscles contract.
I missed the obvious answer to OPs question
"If you think I've gotta problem then I'm sorry for you son. I've got 99 problems but hell ain't one".Yesterday's conversation about where a great number of American beginners had the God concept. You came to the conclusion that the VERY first document for this country's VERY first document has a few mentions of a Godlike supreme judge. Thanks
It has one mention of a Creator...Not a judge...
The Original Pledge of Alliance written in 1892 by Francis Bellamy a Baptist minister:
"I pledge allegiance to the flag
of the United States of America
and to the republic for which it stands,
one nation indivisible,
with liberty and justice for all."
**Changed in 1954 by recommendation of Senator Joseph R. McCarthy
A few words from our founding Fathers:
"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled it would be more consisten that we call it the word of a demon rather than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize humankind and for my part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel."
"It is from the Bible that man has learned cruelty, rapine and murder; for the belief of a cruel God makes a cruel man."
"There is scarcely any part of science, or anything in nature, which those imposters and blasphemers of science, called priests, as well Christians as Jews, have not, at some time or other, perverted, or sought to pervert to the purpose of superstition and falsehood."
"Everything wonderful in appearance has been ascribed to angels, to devils, or to saints. Everything ancient has some legendary tale annexed to it. The common operations of nature have not escaped their practice of corrupting everything."
"The Bible: a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalise mankind."
"The Christian system of religion is an outrage on common sense."
"Priests and conjurors are of the same trade."
"The Bible is a book that has been read more, and examined less, than any book that ever existed."
"As to the Christian system of faith, it appears to me as a species of atheism -- a sort of religious denial of God. It professed to believe in man rather than in God. It is as near to atheism as twilight to darkness. It introduces between man and his Maker an opaque body, which it calls a Redeemer, as the moon introduces her opaque self between the earth and the sun, and it produces by this means a religious or irreligious eclipse of the light. It has put the whole orbit of reason into shade."
-Thomas Paine
"...no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities."
"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded upon fables and mythologies."
- a letter to Dr. Woods
"The Christian God can be easily pictured as virtually the same as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, evil and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed, beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of the people who say they serve him. The are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites."
- Letter to his nephew, Peter Carr
Jefferson calls the Christian God "a being of terrific character, cruel, vindictive, capricious and unjust."
- Letter too William Short Monticello, August 4, 1820
"We discover [in the gospels] a groundwork of vulgar ignorance, of things impossible, of superstition, fanaticism and fabrication."
- The Jefferson Bible
"Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity."
- Notes on the State of Virginia, query 17 1784
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
- Letter to John Adams, from Monticello, April 11, 1823.
- Thomas Jefferson
"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches"
"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."
"He (the Rev. Mr. Whitefield) used, indeed, sometimes to pray for my conversion, but never had the satisfaction of believing that his prayers were heard."
"In the affairs of the world, men are saved, not by faith, but by the want of it."
"Some volumes against Deism fell into my hands. They were said to be the substance of sermons preached at Boyle's Lecture. It happened that they produced on me an effect precisely the reverse of what was intended by the writers; for the arguments of the Deists, which were cited in order to be refuted, appealed to me much more forcibly than the refutation itself. In a word, I soon became a thorough Deist."
- Benjamin Franklin
"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."
"But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed."
"What havoc has been made of books through every century of the Christian era? Where are fifty gospels condemned as spurious by the bull of Pope Gelasius? Where are forty wagon-loads of Hebrew manuscripts burned in France, by order of another pope, because of suspected heresy? Remember the Index Expurgato-rius, the Inquisition, the stake, the axe, the halter, and the guillotine; and, oh! horrible, the rack! This is as bad, if not worse, than a slow fire. Nor should the Lion's Mouth be forgotten. Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1,500 years."
"The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles."
"It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service [formation of the American governments] had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven..."
- John Adams
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
"Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation between the ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance; and I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together"
- James Madisen
"There is nothing which can better deserve our patronage than the promotion of science and literature. Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness."
"Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. I had hoped that liberal and enlightened thought would have reconciled the Christians so that their [not our?] religious fights would not endanger the peace of Society."
- George Washington
Heavy Christian foundations??? Doesn't sound like it to me...Heavy Christian pushing since the early to mid 1900's...Yes, that I agree with...
If it wasn't for a few free thinkers and we were still clinging to the strict bible code, we would still have slavery in this country and women would still have little to no rights...So I think we are doing pretty good in spite of the Christians attempting to religionize this country...
If you want to know what religion in government does to a country...the religion doesn't matter...look to the middle east countries like Iran, Iraq and others...I notice that in all of these statements, the question of the existence OR NOT of a creator/God is not brought into discussion. It is the institution of religiosity and the politics which comes with it that is brought into question.
You are correct...Separation of Religion and State....So this country was not founded on or in Christian beliefs...
Most of the founding fathers were in fact deist...they had beliefs...They just didn't think, want or felt that religion belonged in government. And they seemed to be more than just a little opposed to the Christian religion itself...being in government...
Which was the point being made...I remember being taught in history class in public school (in the 60's) that the vast majority of the settlers were coming here to escape the church (Freedom of/from religion).
The R.C.C. and its various forms had gained and maintained control of most all of the governmental institutions that were not controlled by Islamic states.
Freedom of/from religion, to believe and worship as one chose was the original concept.
At least this is what I was taught in high school.I remember being taught in high school history class that when America was being colonized the vast majority of migrants were coming here to escape the control which the R.C.C. in it's various forms had over most all of the governments of Europe that were Islamic states.
Religion controlled every aspect of life. America was founded upon freedom of/from religion, that they/we could believe and worship God in whatever fashion of choice (or Not)
Least wise, this is what my teacher taught.
(Gotta go out for a while)Well let's find some "other" quotes from the believers.
You respond to my post about the declaration with the "lyrics" to the pledge? Then, a long rendering of supposed quotes from a select few of the founders? Weren't Harvard, Yale, and Princeton (our first and yet operating and sstill "on top" universities) each started with Christian foundations?
Thank you for your help I forgot about the pledge written by the minister. (Who probably believed as I do) any quotes from him?Hmm...Just about all schools are based from philosophy (Religion included) when humans first started using schools...
Yale offers free classes on the Bible...The Old Testament and the New Testament...I challenge you to read or watch the classes online...I can provide the link if you wish...And after you are done, let me know if you still feel that schools like Harvard, Yale and Princeton have Christian Foundations in their teachings...
This minister who wrote the Pledge...didn't feel the need to add the words "Under God" to the pledge...And I like how you dismiss the quotes of our founders as "supposed" and yet you get somewhat offended when the Atheist does the same to your beliefs...
But to answer your question...Do I have quotes from the minister concern religion in the government...no...But I can read the Pledge he wrote quite clearly and it doesn't mention God...So I would assume, he felt religion didn't need to be included in government either...(But that is my assumption based on how he wrote the pledge)Did we have states that fully trusted and imposed tobacco fines for missing service on Sunday. Did the first Amer. boat carry men and a priest who prayed and put a cross in the sand as soon as he reached land? Oh! And didn't they bring bibles to the Natives?
And thus the Holocaust began. What a wonderful thing these Christians brought to the shores of this great continent. As a Native American, or Black person, I would be completely ashamed....and totally lacking any dignity to promote such genocidal, and prejudiced nonsense as HOLY.
I would like the link to more free classes, even though I'm back in school for another degree already. Pick me, pick me!
I heard something about the certain states having deep faith? So much so that tobacco fines were assessed for missing Sunday service.?
My point is: This country has a heavy Christian foundation.Yes, but that is history. What is the future of Christianity? What will it be based on? Can the passions of the past be drummed up today for the same reasons as in the past? It seems that God plays it by ear and assists us as needed. When men try to help mankind and have it their hearts to do so, God comes to those individuals and helps them deliver the message of Christ. What is the message of Christ and how is it relevant today? Who will help those who want/need to know the message of Christ?
In the recent past it was (1955:) Martin Luther King, Jr. and (1949:) Billy Graham.
In the distant past it was (1681:) William Penn, (1630:) John Winthrop, (1635:) Roger Williams, (1730:) John Wesley, (1808:) Elizabeth Stanton...Learn from the experience of others. Much, if not most, of Europe was more "Christian" than the average US ever was. It no longer is - things have changed and there is no reason to think that the US won't follow the same general path. The peoples of Europe are the most likely future of Christianity; a long, slow death that will take generations to complete.
And what has it been replaced with...? Nothingism? It will be the demise of America if so. We were built with the passions of religious fervor. Without fervor, apathy will set in. We will become a social democracy along with most of Europe.
I certainly hope not.
People wake up. Protect your ability to be inspired by the joy of independence.
Atheists, what the hell is your problem?
We cannot afford to throw the Baby out with the bathwater!Hmm... if we are to compare the UK (For example) with the USA...well...Their Government isn't shut down...I'll just leave it at that...
And we have a Christian President who cares about the will of the people?
Let us vote for Obama care in the next election. I wish we would boycott having anything to do with PPACA for now... as in stop signing up for it! Let the people have their due representative vote on the matter! After we study the bill and it is an across the board arrangement.Healthcare in the UK is free to all citizens...Required medical issues that is..not for things suchs as "elective surgeries"...(Unless I am understanding something wrong..UK folks help me out here)
Seems they have the bibles principles of helping your fellow man figured out...Health care works in smaller countries. It could work within individual states. But not the whole nation, as big as it is.
Works for Canada. I'm not sure what you guys are so afraid of. Seems like something Jesus would have wanted since he spent his time supposedly healing the poor. What should the poor be treated any differently than the rich by the government?
Nice!
Where do you find doctors that don't required being paid, or contractors to build your hospitals that don't mind doing it for free? We need to "hire" a few million of them.
Because everything that happens behind those hospital doors, or before their construction, always costs here in the states. It would surely help if we could find caregivers that don't require a salary. Or drug manufacturers or construction crews or makers of X-ray machines. All of those things cost over here - how you manage to get them for free is something we haven't discovered yet.Government pays for it all...That is part of what they use their taxes for.
True...but correct me if I am wrong here...but doesn't Obama care cost money...and is mandatory to have??? So comparable??? Thinking so...
Government pays for it! But...that means the people you're claiming get it for free are actually paying for it after all!
Funny how that always comes out, isn't it? That nothing provided for by government is "free" at all? Probably best not to make the claim in the first place as some nasty person will almost always point that out.True...
As we all pay taxes...I think you know what was implied...Yes, I know what was implied. That an entire nation of people can get wondrous medical care without paying a price for it, and a very large price at that. That any costs are inconsequential, that costs of thousands and thousands per person per year won't happen because they can be hidden in taxes.
Sure, I understand the implications - I just see through them to the reality behind.Are we talking about the same thing??
From what I have found, the UK per person taxes are only about 10% more than what we currently pay per person...Maybe I am missing something??Many countries pay less tax and get more (non-fee-charging) healthcare than the US. But that is because they have tax efficiencies in various other places, and cost savings from removing the profit margin.
The US spends more of GDP on healthcare than any other nation on earth. And that is while simultaneously not providing universal coverage. It boggles the mind.Yes.. This is the part I don't understand with the whole health care thing...
And how did we get on this topic anyhow...LOL
Probably nothing. You just aren't putting the numbers together.
The US brings in around $2 Trillion in taxes. With about 100 million households, an increase of 10% is somewhere in the neighborhood of an additional $2,000 per household to pay for medical care to UK standards. This in addition to what our taxes already pay for in medicare, medicaid, WIC, etc. - we already spend around $4,000 per household in those areas.
And on top of all that, we have to add in what? Ten per cent profit to the insurance companies? And when it's all done, UK healthcare is NOT what US citizens are expecting. They are expecting to walk into any doctor's office of hospital and be seen without delay and be taken care of for any illness/injury. Without further costs to them. Including, of course, such things as cosmetic surgery. It's not going to happen.But wouldn't a plan similar to the UK or Canada do away with medicare, medicaid and some of the other assistance plans (To include the military types of medical plans and VA plans) we have in place now for an all encompassing one?
and the price of all medical costs will rise as well.
What leads you to believe this? What costs?
Do you think, for example, that hospital costs will increase or decrease? For whom?
Do you think there will be an increase in ER trips (the most expensive treatment option)?
Do you think there will be an increase in unpaid bills for ER trips (The biggest loss for hospitals)?
Do you think that availability of preventative care for a group that hadn't the option of having such care will increase medical costs or decrease them?
Has preventative care such as pre-natal care increased or decreased medical costs historically?
Just some questions...Hospital ER costs should decrease, and other hospital costs in general may decrease as well from better preventative care. That very much remains to be seen - preventative care doesn't help if the patient doesn't follow the advice.
But what about additional millions upon millions of clinic visits each year? We are not only insuring additional millions of people, but reducing co-pay costs for many more millions as well - what about the $150 per visit costs for those millions of doctor visits?
As people don't go to the ER for minor injuries/illnesses, and the costs are shifted to clinics, what happens there? Actual cost should be very little less; a clinic visit still requires a doctor and an exam. That the hospital demands more money doesn't change the cost of care - the hospital still needs the money as the ER doctors are still on the job. Only the tiny cost of medical supplies in the ER goes to the clinic.Actually, the uninsured now have no option but to go to the ER even for minor injuries and illnesses. Ask any ER doc how often he treats ear infections and colds. However because of the nature of the ER (often working without medical history, assuming worst case scenario) they are required to perform expensive testing just in case. ER look from worst case scenario to least, clinics work from most common scenario to most uncommon. That's why ER care is so expensive.
Non-compliance is a problem with lifestyle, but -in general- compliance on preventative medications is fairly high. Those with high-blood pressure for example have a higher chance of taking medications than changing their lifestyles. The diabetic has a higher chance of taking their insulin than changing their diet (Although diabetes has a higher life-style change compliance than other medical conditions)
I also have high hopes (with no statistical or academic proof whatsoever) that an increase in actual clinic/family doctor time will at least lead to a moderate increase in treatment of mental health issues. The only backup I have to that one is the increased treatment of postpartum depression from pre-natal care.
I also am kind of going on statistics and life experience of certain programs (namely early intervention programs for disabled/delayed children) where cost-free (to patient) quasi-medical interventions such as speech and physical therapy have reduced and even eliminated developmental delays in children... that intervention has saved millions if not billions in educational expenses.
In the postpartum and early intervention scenarios, while there might have been an "investment" cost in medical care, the cost to the tax payers in other areas was significantly reduced.
It goes back to the circle of poverty thing... health affects education, education effects productivity, etc. So while I'm not completely happy about obamacare, I think that such a plan -if done correctly- could have further reaching consequences than a hospital bill or insurance premium will ever show.Melissa, I won't argue that national health care could provide huge long term savings to the country. Probably enough to pay for that care. The key word is "could", however. I don't expect it to happen for a variety of reasons.
Your ear infections in the ER - what you are saying, meaning to or not, is that the level of care in a clinic isn't as high as in the ER. That's something that the public simply won't put up with - doctors are required in this country to be right 100% of the time, and it seems to get worse with increasing poverty.
Non-compliance - I was thinking more of diet, exercise, etc., not medication usage. I stand behind what I said in that it is very low and will continue to be so. A doctor tells someone with two jobs and on food stamps to eat better and cook better meals it isn't going to work.
Child development - while an extremely worthwhile goal, I don't believe Obamacare will have anything to do with speech or physical therapy. None of the intervention programs you mention (and that I agree fully would pay off both financially and for the kids).
Bottom line: I see health care costs going through the roof. In addition, huge sums will be collected by insurance companies as profits in addition to what they had before - an inevitable result when millions and millions of new customers are added. I see the quality of health care going down - we don't have the "infrastructure" to care for an additional 50 million people. The country cannot pay the price or sustain the care level we have now OR what is expected by the newly insured. All of which is going to mean additional large supplies of money - money the country does not have.I don't know all the ends and outs...but I don't mind learning...But maybe we should move this to another topic thread as we are way off topic...LOL..
Demmit, you're right... but but but... I like debating with wilderness.
We never agree but we always do... it's kinda like kismet... or fate... or predestination... or a mandate from God...
Who I think exists... and the atheists are oppressing me by saying he doesn't.
(weak segway, but I'm not feeling especially creative today)With me, you and wilderness and a few others....it is more of a discussion than debates...when talking with each other for the most part...
Huh! I enjoy our discussions, too, but if I'm just a "mandate of God", well...I may have some oppressing to do.
But, yeah, somehow the three of us have gotten a tad bit off topic. We'll blame it on the one that piped up with "Canada" and say no more.It baffles me. It's like living next to a country that doesn't have cars and claims they don't need them. Not that our system is perfect, far from it, I don't think we are taxed all that differently then you. Some things are taxed higher in order to help pay for healthcare. Alcohol and cigarettes for example.
Just Saying.
Spoilsport. And just when I had her on the ropes!
Another false assertion. On what do you base that on other than your beliefs?
No, they drop once you get ride of all those insurance companies.
Look, here is what happens up here. Instead of giving hundreds of dollars a month to insurance companies who are back with a bunch of accountants and lawyers, we pay taxes to the non-profit government who regulates the wages of healthcare workers and the big drug companies. Our drugs are much cheaper in Canada because the government steps in when someone is screwing us.
I think you understood perfectly well what he meant by free healthcare. No pay per use fees.
It's already being replaced with secularism, reason and rationale. People are getting educated. Thinking is and will continue to replace believing. You either can think or not.
Joy of independence can be found outside of Christianity as well though. Take Jainism for example. I'm not knocking anyone's beliefs but there is a whole world of possibilities, it's just hard to think that just one way has all the answers for every single person on the planet. Find what works for you and speaks to you and do it, but remember to remain realistic when thinking everyone will agree with you. This pertains to all walks of life, all religions, all beliefs and non-beliefs.
exactly right. I am for anything which encourages and inspires. We are a country founded on religious enthusiasm. Religious I take to mean God believing, no matter what faith.
Baloney. We were NOT built with a religious fervor.
We are built with a tremendous curiosity, however, and a tremendous amount of gullibility - we like to believe what others tell us. We also have an absolutely huge capability to rationalize what we want to be true into being true, at least in our own minds.
So we have curiosity - curiosity that was the beginning of ancient religion (explain the stars and where we came from) but we've learned answers to that. We're not so gullible any more, either, and have usually learned to question the speaker. We've even learned to question our own rationalizations at least some of the time.
All of these are good things, not bad, and can only serve us well. Nor are they "nothingness" - they all come from within us and are a part of the intelligence we're so proud of....part of God. an intangible part of "God." God is not an imaginary being. God is the essence of ourselves and nature. Does this understanding make me an atheist?
no.It makes you a believer and assert things that are simply not true.
God is your ego, your self. You are not an imaginary being, you are real.
It will become another myth like all the other religions now and before them.
I think a better way to say this would be...
It will be viewed by everyone as a myth just as the many religious beliefs before it...Just as the Roman and Greek religions...
But, it will probably be replaced by another one though...I agree...any understanding, whether science or religion or a combination of the two, which makes God
Evident!Hmm. "Understanding" would seem to indicate knowledge; something that religion does not generally provide. It certainly has nothing to do with belief systems...
Well, then that is a good word to use. Blind belief is slipping away ... down the drain... And thats okay because human receptive powers are becoming more finely tuned... absolute reality will be the new quest.
But, very little of anything you say is not based on reality, but instead based on blind belief.
Wow, you just make one false assertion after another without giving any thought whatsoever.
God gives us Joy and Positivity. God gives us Peace and Love. That is the baby we can't throw out with the bathwater of blind belief... Luckily we have bath tubs with drains these days. I predict that that beautiful happy baby is not going anywhere.
and will be increasingly valued the more we take care of it.
LOL. I'm done.Are your references to the ill-tempered, abusive, genocidal God of the Bible, or some unknown God?
Sorry, but that IS blind belief as well. How can you not see that?
Kinda like Rosemary's baby?
The inspiration of the Bible depends upon the ignorance of the gentleman who reads it.
~~Robert Green IngersollThat is entirely false based on the history of Christianity, which has shown to provide little more than conflict, intolerance and hatred.
Your religion and how it causes so much conflict in the world. Just look at what it teaches you and causes you to do.
- you are just not paying attention are you. But you are free to regulate your thoughts anyway you so choose. So, I think you should give me the same leeway and have the same attitude.
EACH to their OWN!Yes, I am paying attention.
You are free to believe irrational thoughts and claim false ideas and notions, that is your prerogative.
Why you would want to do so is not a mystery, either. Perhaps, you actually also believe in the false notion that your irrational ideas and false claims garner respect? They don't.I said each to their OWN. Why do you continue focusing on ME? Really Mr. ATMan. If you stop focusing so much on the egos, thoughts and beliefs of others you would't be so darn troubled.
Okay? I don't want you to be so troubled!Kathryn, If you stop answering him, he goes away. Do you WANT to argue or do you have some masochistic tendencies? What is your reason to keep engaging him?
Because No God is negative. And the nature of reality is positive. I do not want delusion such as his to have the last word. Is that evidence of Masochism? You have rescued me before. Maybe I should take your advice once again.
thank you.
Finis!He has already heard all the arguments that there are in favor of religion. You aren't going to say anything that makes him change his mind... and the taunting back and forth makes you both look bad. If he wants the last word, let him have it.
He's not here to discuss, he has other motives. The only way he see those motives met is if you give him a platform. Otherwise, he's just talking to himself. You responding gives him validity. Him talking to himself takes the validity away. After all, it's hard to call someone else ridiculous if you are currently talking to yourself.Kathryn also has motives, but whatever it takes.
My motives are to explain that God is perceived through ESP and is real. It is evil to take away from anyone the possibility of perceiving God. By going within one can tune into God. God is not a myth or an imagined being. God is real. He is found within by shutting off the other five senses and perceiving Him directly with the sixth sense of intuition. Now if you will excuse me, I will take my thoughts and go.
just tryin' to be helpful.See motive!
My motive to help people to think critically about everything. Blind faith is the result of a lack of critical thinking. My intuition tell me that to not shut my senses and critical thinking down, however in the sake good sportsmanship I'll give it a try...
Nope, nothing there. Why did you lie to me like that?Then, your motive is to spread false information and nonsense.
If God was real, we would all know it.
In other words, turn off your brain to find God.Shutting off the five senses.
Sensory deprivation is known to produce hallucinations in as little as 15 minutes. Surely you are not saying that God is a hallucination?
http://phys.org/news175504269.html(@ wilderness: That is not the same as meditation. In fact, I read about advanced yogis who were buried underground for a period of time and through meditating on God, they survived and emerged physically and psychologically just fine. I cannot provide the source, but I am not making it up.)
No it is not. You said "He is found within by shutting off the other five senses...", which is what I responded to.
But you really need to be a little more discriminating in what you read - either that or more careful to question the veracity of it. Many people have spent time underground - the diamond miners of South Africa spend nearly half their life miles under with the long shifts they work. Nuclear submarines spend weeks "underground" (underwater) without coming up.
But I presume that's not what you mean - you refer to a fraud that claims to have been buried alive without air, water or food for longer than a person can survive and are dug up much later in good condition because they meditated. Or at least I presume you are, and if so I wouldn't name my sources, either!You may have not made that up, but someone else did. Gullible much?
I actually meditate all the time. I can stop my breathing for up to five minutes and I can stop my heart for up to two minutes, but there is no God involved, only the mind controlling thoughts and body.(Rad Man: Very Cute! No, I am not that gullible that I believe you can stop your heart and not breathe for five minutes and still not believe in God! If you could do all that you would have such bliss you wouldn't even need to keyboard in forums anymore!)I believe the "You" controlling your mind is the soul which is the drop in ocean of spirit. "I" am a small bit of the ocean of spirit which can be perceived as bliss or joy. Heaven is perceived by going within where peace, love, awareness, intelligence manifest because they are attributes of Spirit. Its just how one looks at things, I guess. If you believe in your self whether soul or ego or both, then actually you DO believe in god... maybe not GOD.
There is a difference between believing that Atlas is resting the Earth upon his shoulders, and knowing that the Earth rotates around the Sun....in a Solar System of planets, that's part of the Milky Way galaxy.
One simply believes the former.
While there is evidence of the latter.
One believes that there is a SPIRIT.
While one has evidence of a BRAIN.
I'm going with the evidence.And believers are feeling so persecuted that they can't burn me at the stake anymore. You know....like they did to heretics in the past.
Ha ha ha. Some of the believers feel persecuted because secular laws prevent them from following the directions of the holy book. They'd like to put homosexuals to death for being homosexual but they are afraid (persecuted) of spending the rest of their life behind bars for their convictions. Should be a monty python skit in there somewhere.
The message of Jesus was love. He reflects the mind of God. Burning people was an idea of man from a skewed perception of what God asks. It is more misunderstanding based from reading "only" the word of God.
That's why he's sending nonbelievers to hell. We don't need this kind of sick "love"
A god that drowned the entire world including innocent animals, killed the first born innocent children, and is constantly abusing and threatening his creation.
Do you remember Sodom and Gomorrah? Of course you do, but you have ignored that, just as you ignore anything that would make you have to re-think your nonsense. How rigidly dishonest.
Drivel...Now I know. Being afraid is not of God either. He did not give us that spirit. Hell is more than anything, eternal separation from God. No possibility to feel him ever. Now that's not so bad for you is it? Those who choose to do without him in this life may certainly not mind being without him in the next. If one may even fathom waking up after death. It's funny to watch people argue about something considered fallacy. Kinda like the man on the corner yelling at his mind.
It takes practice, Rad Man. It is the easiest thing in the world to learn how to meditate. You could probably even google it! And yes, it works like magic.
I'm talking about Yoga.
Yoga practices are based on the nature of reality.
I know you must be familiar with Yoga. What do you think of it?
Oh, I have no doubt she does. However I don't think she's at the point that she's willing to admit them. So why bother?
I was just pointing out the way to deal with the whole constant bicker thing.
+1.
I agree that he has motives, but I disagree that he is not here to discuss. In their own unique ways, most of the atheists see themselves as doing the same thing that most of the Christians see themselves doing, trying to save people.. The difference between the two is that While Christians see themselves as trying to save people from going to hell and eternal separation from God, atheists are trying to save people (including me) from the delusional of a belief in God an an eternal separation from reality. Two sides of the same coin. Same Motive, different language
That's how anyone sees those motives met. If nobody has a platform, then these forums would be very boring because they'd be quietIs that how you view it? Sorry, but we are attempting to rid society of the hate cults in the world, Christianity being one of them. No, it isn't two sides of the same coin at all because Christianity represents a real threat to societies and people, not an imaginary one.
Christians are free to delude themselves as much as they wish and separate themselves from reality, we just don't want them taking the rest of society down with them.No, this isn't how I view it.. It's how it is understood (to loosely borrow one of your phrases). In order to rid society of the "hate cults" of the world, you must first change the thinking of the people that are part of those cults. In other words, You must free them of their hateful thoughts and that would include delusional ideals that fuel those thoughts, would it not? Some Christians see atheism as a hate cult as well and are trying to free them of those thoughts as well and any group (religious or not), once organized can become a threat to society. Same difference.
Both sides see themselves as trying to save society. But I will definitely concede that some atheists are not quite as aggressive with their message as some Christians.But, that is the point, they aren't "thinking", they have been indoctrinated to believe. It is the vicious cycle of indoctrination that drives religions, hence it is the cycle of indoctrination that needs to be stopped.
But, there is actually no thought process in seeing atheism as a hate cult, because it isn't a cult at all. That is merely the result of indoctrination of dogma from that very same hate cult.
How can they be trying to save society when they actually aren't doing anything to save society? Please tell me what steps they're taking to accomplish that?.in·doc·tri·na·tion [in-dok-truh-ney-shuhn] Show IPA
noun
the act of indoctrinating, or teaching or inculcating a doctrine, principle, or ideology, especially one with a specific point of view:
I'm not trying to be insulting or funny here, but I wanted to use the definition. No matter what the ideology is, indoctrination is a learned thought process. People are being taught what to think. So there is really no way to stop indoctrination of all types. As it comes to religious indoctrination, the only way to stop religious indoctrination is to change the principle that is being indoctrinated into others. Either way, it has to start with changing a thought process.
Even in looking at the perceptions of people regarding the behaviors of either side, it can easily be seen that a lot of atheists are as hateful and bigoted in some ways as a lot of Christians are. But I agree, atheism cannot be seen as a group unless they organize.. Wait, there are atheist organizations out there. Adding that to the idea there there are bad atheists as well as there are bad Christians, some of these groups can be seen as hate cults as depending on what they are organizing for
Let's not change or omit any of my words (not an accusation, just want to make sure all of my words are taken into consideration).. I said they SEE themselves as doing it. I never said that they ARE saving society. I cannot speak for anyone that may see themselves in that manner because I haven't spoken to them to get their rationale in their decision (this is anyone who thinks their actions are saving or helping society). It's easy to sit back and say that any group isn't doing anything at all when that group isn't addressing our individual values. this is where the line blurs from the reality of what actions ARE being taken and our feelings OF those actions.That is not true, please see the phrase "inculcating a doctrine or ideology". This is not what is being done in schools, and whether or not it is being done in any other form, it is something that can easily be avoided or questioned, which is not the case for religious indoctrination.
Sorry, but there is no thought process, if there was, there would be no indoctrination. It has less to do with what is being taught as opposed to the method. What is being taught can be questioned and criticized with critical thinking skills, but that is not the case for religious indoctrination.
LOL. Sorry, but that doesn't fly, you're putting the cart before the horse.
Okay, show us an atheist hate cult? Show me as many denominations of atheist hate cults as there are Christian denominations? Some 38,000 of them.
That is the delusion, that is the result of indoctrination.So you are saying that schools do not teach others WHAT to think as well as HOW? If you do then We have to disagree there..
Sorry, but how can there be no indoctrination without a specific thought process to indoctrinate into others? What is being taught can be questioned with critical thinking skills, true, but those thinking skills are still in essence being guided in a certain way within a certain specific understanding (I'm being general here, not just speaking religion). I know you may disagree with me here, but when it comes to religion, we are taught WHAT to think in most cases (Yes I agree with you here..). Christians are taught to obey the laws just like anyone else. We are also taught consequences of failing to follow those laws (Yes I know what punishments the bible say and how harsh it is, but this is not part of my current point) just like anyone else. But outside of the specifics of what laws we are to work within, we are also told to use our best judgment in certain situations that the answer aren't entirely right or wrong. In spite of what is evidenced at times, Christians are taught to think for ourselves as well as use our best judgment. The fact that not all believers actually USE that judgment does not negate the fact that we are taught to use it. but this is applicable to anyone.
Sorry, but I'm not. That's simple fact. There are good and bad in all groups (or non groups) of people.
Again, let's make sure all of my words are considered. I said they can be seen as a hate group depending on what they are espousing. Which means that someone can perceive what they are doing as hatred. To be honest, I have not seen any directly that I can point out because I personally have not directly dealt with any atheist groups (which is why I did not say specifically that I see them that way). I am researching more on atheist groups and atheism so that I can continue to have a better understanding of atheists in general so that even though we may not agree we can still have good dialogue (like we are having now, IMO)
This seems a tad fallacious, don't you think? It appears here that you are saying that even if there is one atheist hate cult that they do not measure up to the denominations of Christianity in terms of hatred.. Hate is hate. Even if there are 100 atheist hate groups (Just a figurative number, not an actual statistic) against 38,000 denominations, it still does not negate the existence of these groups
Which still makes the point of my statements.. In order for the perception of something to change, the thinking of the people that have that perception must change as wellAh, so you still have not looked at this phrase... "inculcating a doctrine or ideology". When you do get around to it and understand it, you'll find that your disagreement is rather silly.
What certain way? What certain specific understanding? No, what is being indoctrinated is not being questioned with critical thinking skills, if it were, no one would be religious.
Taught what to think "without question".
No, Christians are not taught that at all, they are taught to worship and obey without question.
Uh, yeah you are, there would be no such thing as atheism and those who want to see religions disappear if not for the atrocities religions have caused throughout history.
LOL. Yes, I understand Christians see atheists as haters despite anything atheists say. That is what they've been taught to believe.
Exactly. There are no atheist hate cults.
You're the one making the comparisons.
And yet, you can't even show us one atheist hate cult.
Again, there is no 'thinking' when it comes to religious indoctrination, there is only unquestionable belief. It is the cycle of indoctrination that needs to be broken. Critical thought is what IS needed.I did look at the phrase and I do get the point you were making with focusing on that phrase.. My point was that indoctrination is not always a forced thing. There are some things we do pick from others (whether directly or indirectly) when we are children.. You do not have to specifcally TELL someone something as a means of indoctrination, some simply learn things by watching as well. Sorry, my disagreement may be silly TO YOU, but that doesn't make it silly to everyone just like your views are not digested well by everyone that engage you even though you and I can discuss things rationally.
Touche' in most cases. Especially when dealing with Organized religion
It isn't religion itself.. Religion has no sentience and cannot act on its own volition.. The atrocities were caused by PEOPLE, not religion. The reason may be a factor and thus affect the perception of the philosophy, but the philosophy itself cannot act on its own
And the comments and actions of some atheists have nothing to do with it? Yeah okay. I am a Christian and I was not taught anything about atheists other than they do not believe in God. I was never "taught" anything regarding the actions of atheists and what it means. I heard about how some atheists believe and I have met some that matched what I was taught, But I was also taught not to let the actions of a few dictate my attitude toward all of them. If so, I wouldn't have the atheist friends I do have and my conversations with you wouldn't be as civil..LOL
Fallacy. Just because you or I haven't encountered any doesn't mean they do not exist.
Again just because we haven't done the research or found one doesn't mean they do not exist
I didn't say anything about critical thinking not being needed. I was saying that some thought processes do need to be changed.It doesn't have to be forced, in order for it be successful, it has to be accepted. Of course, threats of accepting it is another story altogether.
That has nothing to do with indoctrination.
But, it is silly. You don't appear to understand the concept of indoctrination or are refusing to understand it.
Indoctrination doesn't necessary require organized religion, but it is highly likely organized religion is behind all religion.
No, they are caused by religions indoctrinating good people to do bad things.
No, it is not a fallacy, it is a fact.
I have done the research, there is nothing, nada, zilch.
Once again, there is no thought process with indoctrination. Please try to understand what indoctrination is all about.
No, he's not really here to discuss anything. Remember my church has quite a few atheists... I've heard atheist vs. religious DISCUSSIONS. We have them every Sunday. Julie discusses, Rad discusses, Wilderness discusses, DS discusses...
ATM argues and preaches.
Just like the other one, there is nothing to gain by interaction with him. So I prefer not waste my time.A typical believer attitude, when they no longer have anything to say, they flee like the wind, dumping their sewage as they accelerate away a light speed. Classic.
Better get a dictionary while you're at it, Melissa. Seems you don't know what preaching means, again, typical for a :loving: Christian. Must be all that homeschooling, gettin' dat edumakashun fum Jeebus.Now, there's a REAL discussion that doesn't waste any time at all.
Is that what home schooled kids say every time you teach them about Jeebus?I still must disagree. ATM and I just had a great DISCUSSION on this and another thread. We agreed on some points, disagreed on others. But there was no arguing
Then your interactions with him are different than mine. Not a biggie
I've learned that it's all in the approach as well as the response. We don't always have discussions, but we have more discussions than debates.. Then again it might be that I try to focus more on what it is that he is saying rather than how it is being said. He makes his points. I make mine. I try not to offer any opinion on his points. I try to stay on topic and respond as according to a specific point. I also ask the occasional question to make sure I have him clear before I respond. Small things make a big difference between a discussion and a debate, IMO **shrugs**
EDIT- Maybe I am debating with him but don't know it because I'm not emotionally invested in the discussion **SHRUGS again***shrugs* Like I said hon, to each his own.
I'm not really emotionally invested either... I've just never seen him say anything particularly useful or thought provoking to me. If you can find something that merits discussion or debate with him, good on ya It just looks like the same old blah blah blah to me.Of course it does appear like blah blah blah to you, that is because you haven't been able to defend your position in any way when we've actually had discussions, especially the last one in which you attempted to argue interpretation of scriptures. You failed miserably and when you ran out things to say, you resorted to your usual position of "Whatever you say, dear" and stomped off.
It wasn't thought provoking for you because you didn't put any thought into it.
I would agree, whereas Melissa does get emotionally invested and resorts to "Whatever you say, Dear" when her arguments fail. In another thread, she admitted to being opinionated and blunt, not caring if others viewed her as angry. I have no problem with that, she is free to be opinionated and blunt, good on her. However, if she can't hold an argument and stomps off with "Whatever you say, Dear", that only serves to show an admittance to defeat.
Yes, you can't argue your points very well. You attempt to defend your religious views like other believers here, with very little thought process and a whole lot of belief.
So, let's get back on track, it seems our contention surrounds the word, 'indoctrination', shall we have a good look at it and see if we can come to some sort of agreement?
We already do have an agreement on it.. When dealing with religion indoctrination is pretty much a forced programming of children into a specific belief system. Indoctrination comes in from a point where a child picks up their beliefs based on their environment as well as what comes directly from those parents.
My main contention is not the definition of the word, but that this is not the only definition of the word and also the principle that indoctrination is not simply forced. indoctrination is simple learning as well. Look at those who are raised Muslim but convert to Christianity or vice versa. any conversion or deconversion (or even a change of understanding even in keeping the same belief).But, the main point of indoctrination is the fact it doesn't allow critical thinking or questioning, it only serves to create a system of belief without questioning, without thinking, hence the concept of a Muslim turning Christian is not a factor. If it was, then you yourself would not have your own personal version of Christianity, just like every other believer having their own personal version of their religion. You would all follow Scriptures to the letter.
Well, as far as following all scripture in the bible, I know you've heard this before, but not all scripture applied to Christians. Even the bible outlines which ones apply and which ones don't. That's another rabbit hole discussion in itself.
But your statement brings up an interesting question. If the point of indoctrination is to follow instructions and follow all of the bible without question, yet I and every other believer have our own version of our religion and only follow what we want in the bible instead of the whole thing, wouldn't that defeat the point and purpose of indoctrination? I mean after all, if I question something enough to not follow it, then wouldn't mean that critical thinking had been applied enough to know better? If so, wouldn't that be a good thing?That most certainly is another hole. Of course, I wonder how that would support or refute the concept of indoctrination and belief systems over critical thinking.
It also raises a lot of questions as to why the followers of Jesus would be treated differently and why one thing applies to some and not others. Clearly, that is quite controversial and shows a real lack of consistency.
Yes, it would be a very good thing, however it only serves to show hypocrisy in that if one thing in the bible is questioned enough not to follow it, how can anything else in the bible be shown to be valid, especially when that one thing must support everything else.
For example, I can read a verse in the bible and completely agree it has validity, that it makes perfect sense, yet that very same verse must support that which obviously cannot be agreed upon and has no validity. While I understand this is indeed cherry picking on my part to agree with the validity of the verse and not the others, it is hypocrisy to allow myself to agree it will support other verses and the overall bible itself, which is what is absolutely necessary if one is not to be a hypocrite.
I hope that makes sense, if not, I'll think about it some more and see if I can come up with a better explanation and better examples.Oddly (and I know this will sound funny), it would actually do a little of both. There are some points where it would support the concept of indoctrination because a certain word may not have the same context in another passage of scripture, yet there are a lot of churches and denominations that try to apply the same principle in a "one size fits all" situation. It would also refute it because there are a lot of scriptures (believe it or not) that do call for critical thinking when it comes to situations, especially those points that speak on how we are to treat others.
I can see what you mean here, but there is also the point that Christ's life and death ushered a new period of grace. There is more here, but I think I have given you enough ammo...LOL
Well, just like the laws and punishments have changed in the secular world have changed, the laws and punishments have also changed in the bible as according to how events went along. Now this is in regards to the actual laws themselves.. As far as specific principles are concerned (such as not judging others, being gentle in your speech no matter what, etc),, well, I agree that not following some things is very hypocritical, which is why I try (though I admittedly slip at times) to keep these principles.
I think I understand what you mean. The biggest issue with cherry picking a verse is that you can make a verse mean anything you want it to. But that is not the purpose of the scriptures. Contextually, Most of the verses of scripture coincide with other scriptures as a means of determining a reason for a specific scripture. In other cases, you do have to take the whole block of text (even whole chapters) into context to understand what is being said (which of course is abstract given you think it's all rubbish...LOL)
This is a perfect example of the pot calling the kettle black. Surely, Melissa is a forum saint who never behaves the way she describes others, at least, so she believes.
Of course, Christians believe they have God given authority to shove their beliefs down our throats, to air their beliefs in the public domain in order to influence society and bring us all back to the Dark Ages. Anyone who criticizes or argues with them has a motive or platform and should be ignored because they can't change our minds to follow their hate cult.*pats head*
Yes dear, whatever you say.Yes, I understand you're compelled to behave that way in light of having anything to say, that is how Christians deal with the world around them, they patronize and condescend to others when their irrational beliefs are criticized and exposed for what they are. This is why your religion causes so much conflict in the world.
You could just as well mind your own business. Are you here to tell others what to do?
Oh yes, I forgot, you're a Christian. That's what they do.Notice how the Christian must resort to insults when they have nothing to say. This behavior is typical for believers who are compelled to tell people what to do, but can't figure how to do it themselves.
Exactly, love your neighbour, but don't give them healthcare, if they can't pay their own way screw them.
I resent that. He was trol... err talking about me personally and I'm all for universal health care...
Sorry BUT! you continue to blame and point fingers and scream and carry on...It is your ungodly unbelief and others like you who are running this world. You sir, have yourself, not Christians and their religion as your say; to blame for your anger and your foolish rants about falsehoods, mindless beliefs, and what ever else you come up with. And from your mouth should never be uttered the words intolerance. You by far are the least tolerant typing a response. Their is no wonder why you refuse to shut your mouth...you have nothing good to say and you are not looking for answers you're looking to breath out foolish. Every response is the same crap from you...why/! because you have no peace whatsoever. Your behind is twisting in the wind! Your hopeless and you know and feel it. So, you look for things and places like this to pour out your crap on people so that you can get you rocks off in an argument. "This is a public forum, if you want to talk nonsense, others will inevitably point it out". Your own words say it best.
Hey, bud, that's can be seen as a personal attack. You will notice that ATM does not make it personal, he talks about your beliefs, but not you personally. You are the one in this case attacking the person, so while you may think the world is being ruined by people like us, you may want to instead have a look at your own behaviour. You know nothing about ATM and yet you claim he points fingers and screams foolish rants about falsehoods.
No, actually he attacks the limited view of Christianity that he possesses irregardless of whether it actually relates to what a person thinks or believes. He stereotypes, then attacks the views/behaviors irregardless of whether the person has those views or behaviors or not.
It would be like believing that all African-Americans are criminals, then attacking a single person of that race for being one... with absolutely no proof... or even proof that suggests otherwise.
So no, his comments aren't personal attacks. They are just stereotypical and not at all based on anything but his own limited views.If that were true, I wouldn't be responding to the individual points being made, for example, the points you yourself made in our discussion regarding interpretation. In fact, I provided links and sources showing you were wrong. How is that a stereotype or limited view, Melissa?
Wow, now that's grasping at imaginary straws in thin air, Melissa.
In other words, what you're actually saying here is that Christians are not all believers, they do not all follow the Bible, they do not believe Christ is their savior?
Of course, they aren't. And yet, you have not on any occasion been able or capable of pointing that out despite the fact that I have always attacked a belief or idea on it's own merit or validity.
Of course, who is the one here who constantly responds with, "Yes dear, whatever you say"? Is that not stereotyping or having a limited view?
Hilarious, Melissa. I really thought you had a whole lot more capacity for rational thought than that, I guess I was totally wrong there.
- Hilarious.
Yet, your post is nothing more than an emotional tirade of personal insults. How very Christian of you.
Point out anything you wish you deem as nonsense, I have no problem with that. Of course, you can't, hence the emotional tirade. It is comments like this that makes it hard for Christianity as a whole and Christians in particular. You wasted all the time it took for you to throw all of this vitriol at ATM and other atheists here when you could have been sharing something (anything) more positive and constructive and for what purpose? To make yourself feel better?
How does it work for you?Its called not laying down and being a door mat.
But nobody said anything to him. Not being a doormat means standing up for YOURSELF against what you feel is an attack on you. Nobody said anything against him, yet he decided to jump on the attack..
Why do you believe he is a door mat? What possible conclusion have you drawn to warrant that?
Yes. Passivity with obvious hatred it seems would go against what Jesus taught. He did not let ungodliness stand. He was vigilant in protecting godliness even unto a whip for the church vendors. Biblically, we are to stand for righteousness. The constant bombardment of mockery is unfair and actually does harm to those willing to "hear". I believe you have done this thing correctly. Thanks
It's actually disturbing that you are encouraging this type of behavior. It's not about just your beliefs, it's about parameters. You know....the parameters of civility? I don't see any reason to show the level of emotion that was shown in that post. Why get so angry? Why become so insulting....in a personal way? Is that REALLY what Jesus would do? If so, maybe Jesus is not qualified to be a savior, and should probably seek professional help.
I am disturbed by many of the posts that I read as well. The confrontation was simply that. I do not feel that it was as offensive as most of what I read from the confronted. Sometimes I imagine him as a little kid typing at his grandfather's computer with milk and cookies giggling.
Jesus was firm with all who opposed truth. He stood up firmly for right.
Now ATM... trying. Yes, that's a good description. Whew!!! T-r-y-ing. I think it is purposely employed to disengage the intended target. Over and over he taunts and teases and disrespects and I think he gets it from get it wrong. His ideas come across as sarcastic, snide, and rude to the imp degree. The poster simply called him on it. It wasn't the first time and probably won't be the last. We are human. ATM? trying. .. he knows/loves it too.
I ALWAYS get a kick out of the fact that people who can be so nasty; have the gall to be sensitive. That's a real HOOT.Yes, I can understand you would see others who don't share your beliefs as little kids, even though their responses to your posts are reasoned and rationalized in light of your magical thinking. And, even if we were little kids, our responses would demonstrate that even little kids can show your beliefs to be childish and ridiculous. That doesn't say much for an alleged adult.
If Jesus were alive today, He would not stand with you, He would sit you down and tell you to stop fighting with everyone and causing so much conflict. He would try to educate you.
Yes, I can understand how you would view the presentation of reality in light of your magical thinking as disrespectful, snide and rude. There is no room for reality in the fantasy world you have created for yourself.
No, the poster attacked me personally. Perhaps, it was the Christian thing to do and perhaps you would agree with it.
Yes, I can understand how you believe those who don't share your beliefs and criticize them are nasty. It must really feel nasty to have your entire worldview shown to be little more than a fantasy and delusion.If one feels the need to stoop to this level, then why should anyone want to follow the same principles that he/she does? Your God doesn't seem to be able to make people into better human beings....at all.
I guess that's why he condoned all the horrible unrighteous debauchery of the Old Testament. If Jesus thought that he stood firmly for right, he was suffering from a severe psychosis.
In other words, you, and the poster, are mad because ATM has shown that he can out maneuver you in an argument. Then, by all means, produce a better argument, instead of the whimsical farce that believers try to pass as debate.
Sounds kinda like your God. He can drown the entire planet, burn cities to the ground, totally abandon believers, who slavishly pray to him, kill the innocent first born of "his people's" enemy, but becomes so butthurt whenever he knocks at the door of my heart, and I won't let him in.
You have a really skewed perception of it all. There is so much that you do not understand about God, Jesus, the word of God, the bible and the life of Christians. The messy comments about flawed mentality, ignorance, and the like are the fuel that starts our negativity. I have no problem being considered less than adequate; that is not a problem of mine. But the lies about my way of life are a bit hard on my ears. However my sensitivities are not so that I am offended; how can you be? Say what you like about whatever you like
I will too.
Jesus did say:
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you are like to white washed sepulchers, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness."
In this case it was righteous anger. I don't entirely agree with how that comment was made to ATM the core of his message was true.But Jesus was in no position to judge anyone, as he, himself, was a fraud, posing as the son of an imaginary God, and doing magic tricks to con the ignorant masses.
The core of his message was that he hates to have his beliefs shown in the light of what they really are.That is your opinion. At least you believe in the historical Jesus.
I think it has to do with how you treat people and you treat them badly with no respect.
Then obviously, there are those who are not willing to "hear" and find that those who want us to "hear" could care less about whether or not others want to "hear" because we have heard it all before.
Ah, so like so many other evangelists, you believe that you have the right to shove your beliefs down the throats of others, and when they tell you they don't want to hear it, you believe it is your right to attack them personally and that it is indeed the correct thing to do.
Again, Jesus would never stand by your words or your beliefs, he would indeed sit you down and attempt to educate you, if that were even possible.Funny that you believe you know what Jesus would do.
Those of you who do not want to "hear" don't get to say "shut up and go home" as you attempt. Your desire here is two-fold. You want the Christian to be embarrassed. You attempt to make a mockery of the entire belief of those if us who follow Christ. You don't even understand that Jesus was very stern in his message. You have no idea what Jesus would do... you don't KNOW him. You are envious of those of us who do know him.
YES. It was an excellent idea to rebuke mockery and rudeness. Again it will not be the final rebuke received. You get "in the face". Jesus does too. And his bark/bite is way more effective than even the impiest.I can read scriptures, too.
Yes, we can say that, we have every right to say that, especially to those who abuse their rights.
The Christian embarrasses themselves without any help from me.
Christianity IS already a mockery.
You don't understand anything.
I can read scriptures, too. <--- me being envious
By tossing out personal insults? That is not what Jesus would do, but that is what you would do, and that is why Jesus would educate you, because you refuse to be educated by anyone else.
Oh, I am quite sure more Christians like yourself will continue with tossing out personal insults.
Sorry, but Jesus doesn't bark or bite, how little you know of Him.
This is a public forum, if you want to talk nonsense, others will inevitably point it out.
I personnally haven't found a need for yoga. I have great self-soothing techniques and I move around a lot. I will check to see if there has been another discussion started as we have moved so far from this thread's topic.
atheists so believe in god., they use the word god more than any other religion around. they are obsessed with god. they are angry at god. they are consumed with the idea. all this for something they claim not to believe in. well know what? i don't get angry at things that i don't believe in , atheists. that being said, im not angry at atheists. because i don't believe in them
Another reason is not necessary. The things that are said are said in an attempt to get a rise out of the Christian. He believes that his perpetual taunt will be effective in frustrating you just enough to hopefully go away. It is a horrible thing for someone so supposedly enlightened with some knowledge about everything but Christ. Wouldn't it be funny if you were actually speaking to Satan himself???
You know he becomes quite agitated about the name of Jesus... the responses are nothing short of evil. No thought like they say... just taunts...the breaking up of the conversation to respond to every word is more evidence. Just taunts. Be encouraged. They have NOTHING on God.Just a person attempting to show some of you how ridiculous your superstitions are. There is no need to resort to calling him evil or Satan simple because he doesn't agree with you and isn't afraid of expressing his disagreement. Another manipulative tactic done by extremists designed to make enemies out of those who don't fall in line. Pathetic.
What is actually pathetic Rad is now a concern about something ELSE neither of you believe in. Who is Satan? He make you worry?
Evil is as evil does. Taunting is evil. Hey... so's the devil.
A big red x is smashed across every post for holiness. It's not an argument; just consistent denial of truth. Nobody made him judge. How does the atheist feel he has the gavel on what constitutes a credible argument? Who told him he was the master of what is true or false? His idea of what makes sense is subject only to his own intellect; not mine. Satan is not sensitive; why should the arrogant poster be???Ah yes, those who criticize your irrational beliefs are evil and aligned with Satan. Hilarious.
I take credit and blame for my actions. You blame Satan and give credit to a God. I'm accountable, you think you are not.
Who made you the judge? Look at you pointing your finger calling another evil, criticizing every word made by another because they don't agree with you. Who's actions are more evil?I am not the finger pointer but I can understand the desire to not be pointed at. Not a biggie for me though. You mean you and yours can't handle that??? You don't like being tossed in the EVIL bin??? So sad... evil is as evil does. You are no final authority on what constitutes a credible argument. You have no knowledge on much of anything of Christ. You have nothing but suspicion snd hearsay. I have truth. It aint my fault that you two have been blinded by intellect.
There is no need to lie. Your finger is pointed directly at ATM and you are calling him evil and Satan. It's there for all to see.
I understand exactly what your superstitions are and I see the damage they cause.Again, you are mistaken. We know a tree by its fruit. If all the fruit I see has hair, I tend to leave it alone; and warn others. I know who I am. I know where im going. I know that ruffles feathers especially for those who haven't clues; only fleeting recall for erroneous info.
Jesus is the example. I have no reason to point fingers UNLESS there's a hair in your cocktail.
What did Jesus think about calling people evil? I don't recall him doing a lot of that.
I particularly like the "I am not the finger pointer but..."
Well reading a very old book is not that interesting for some. "We know a tree by the fruit it bears" evil fruit. Evil tree. Oh! And I cannot find the likes in scripture. I don't believe he encountered an ATM.
Here it comes...
And there it is. This is the equivalent of someone saying "No offense, but" then follows it up with a whole lot of offensive statements and ends it with "Just calling it like I see it". You claim to have "truth". The only truths that I have seen you post here has been scriptures that have been written in the bible and that the final word on everything belongs to God.. Everything outside of that has been purely your personal opinion. You talk about how evil is what evil does. You have judged ATM, Rad man, and others that disagree with you as being evil, but judging others is a sin. also claiming authority and superiority over others by claiming you have "truth" (especially without specific proof of said truth) falls under being arrogant and prideful (which pride is another sin if memory is on my side).. So if you wanna look at evil and call it out, make sure you take a good look at the things you have posted here and reevaluate them against what the Bible says about judging, being prideful, and even how to speak to and handle those who disagree with you (see 2Tim 2:20-25)At the time of this comment the conversation was really heated and there were some bitterness about the utterly rude remarks that sounded a lot like evil. I can very well call it like I see it. Evil actions are spelled out biblically. Did you read the full conversation? You have judged ME guilty???
do you think that I am surprised??? No. I would expect you (or Mo or Melissa) to take up for one who speaks as the posters throwing gall at one who speaks biblically. You seem to agree. Not everything of course, but...
Now, if my memory serves me correctly; you are of the opinion that a lot of biblical text is in err. Who JUDGED that? Then you list scripture to supposedly back you up? Hmmm... Did you list a scripture that you allowed to pass as "good" scripture??? I don't want to read the parts that we should omit... selah
I am so far past judgment. It is beneath me But saying that one is behaving as evil behaves if that is true, is not disallowed by God. I cannot bear FALSE witness legitimately. But witness? I may.
Tepid???No I have not judged you guilty of anything, nor have I or do I absolve them of their actions. However, as Christians, we are held to a higher standard of behavior than the unbelievers are and I am merely pointing out that the actions of yours and others TOWARD the unbelievers is not in accordance with that high standard. There is a Scripture that speaks of what you are to do when someone strikes you.. Turn the other cheek. By NOT turning the other cheek, you contradict the very word of God you profess a belief in..
Your memory does not serve you correctly.. Show me where I have ever said that. I have said that a lot of biblical texts are taken out of context when they are spoken. That is not a judgment. That is called Spiritual Discernment (Which you have spoken of before) When faced with false preaching. Another thing.. I do not judge what is or is not "good" scripture, but even if I did, You don't. to you, all the scripture is good and should be followed, so any scripture myself or anyone else posts to make a point still applies to you since you follow ALL of it. Now of course I didn't expect you to have read or understood the scripture I did mention because you are still not following it even though you CLAIM to believe in all of it
Edit** It might help you to get an understanding of what I believe before you try to speak on it.
Even when it is you behaving as evil behaves??
You just contradicted yourself just that quickly.. You say you are past judgment then you throw the word Tepid at me. You have judged me to be lukewarm
Matthew 7:5 (first words) Hypocrite.
Before you throw words out, please make sure they don't ultimately contradict the sentence before.. It really is not a good look to say one thing then in the same breath say something that directly contradicts what you have spoken beforeChrist did not teach people to attain a higher standard of behavior than others, he already understood that we don't need any standards because we all already possess traits of behavior patterns necessary for getting along with one another. He knew this had nothing to do with believing or not believing in gods, but that it is our human nature that needed to be presented for what it is.
If Christ appeared today, He would tell all Christians to put the Bible down and stop following it, just as He would state about any other ideology that tells us how to behave.I agree.. I think my response was more in accordance to the standards imposed by organized Christianity.. To some others, Mentioning that I'm Christian is almost the equivalent of saying I'm perfect because of how a lot of fundamentalists try to claim they act.. In reality, being a Christian recognizes a lack of perfection but a will to try to live as best as I possibly can and treat others with respect and ethics
I don't think Christ would want his followers to focus on perfection of any kind, He knew and understood what human nature was all about and realized it had absolutely nothing to do with attaining and kind of standards, especially some pie-in-the-sky perfection, whatever that means. He simply wanted everyone to behave like humans and nothing more.
I would highly recommend forgetting all about standards, perfection and attempting to attain a goal that can never be attained, but instead focus on how we can simply nurture our human nature.I'm not batting 1000 with my clarifications today..LOL.. I didn't mean that Christ imposed those standards.. I meant organized religion (man) imposed those standards. I know Christ didn't impose those standards nor have I tried (lately) to live up to those standards.. I just try to do the best I can and let the cards fall as they may
Jesus doesn't expect us to be perfect but He does require a high moral standard of living which can only be achieved through loving and obeying Him. I'm speaking for myself here at least.
High moral standard? (Not that I'm picking)
I tried... To me, it's like the love I have and the desire to please him keeps me mindful of the fact that he hates sin. That keeps me mindful. The bible and continual prayer help me to see myself in a realistic light. I realize my own need when I stay close. Living as a "Christian" is a daily event. It is active. Acknowledge him in all thy ways... is really a good way to conform to him. He teaches us how to think. He is patient with us and he expects patience in return. Sarah and Abraham waited for "the promise" a long time.
Only praise can be "perfect" in this life. but when his will is most important to you; he knows. He covers. He helps. He forgives. He corrects. His blessings take the form of a clear conscience, peace, joy, more love, and THEN it really gets good. And, we can see by the state of world how that has failed miserably.
Yip, because the world has chosen Satan out of our God-given free will.
No, we're talking about folks like you who have chosen gods.
Most people do not love and obey Jesus and so someone can claim to be a Christian but there behaviour can be contrary to what Jesus preached.
And, we want to thank you for providing so many excellent examples of that contrary behavior.
I don't know what you are taking about. What behaviour of mine is contrary to what Jesus preached?
According to the Bible, Jesus only approached and brought his beliefs to those who were actually curious. He didn't shove it in everyone's faces, especially if they didn't want anything to do with him.
I think I like this Jesus fellow. People should follow his ways.
Actually, that is not true. Jesus came to set right the misunderstandings of the Jews. The Pharisees, the scribes, and the temple vendors were not at all curious about him. They ultimately rejected him. But he had correction for them all. Salvation was offered to all who accepted his message. The Gentiles received him better. This is all biblical information. For all to see.
Jesus was at the top of a mountain preaching. People CAME to hear. I don't remember any heckling... you???The Pharisees were very much threatened by Him and when He came into contact with them He did not held back what He thought of them. The temple vendors were blaspheming. He wasn't preaching a sermon to them. Not sure about the scribes.
Yes
my point was only that he did not ONLY talk to people who were curious and "begged" him for his message. He spoke to many who didn't receive him at all.When He came into contact with those people, then yes. But we never went looking for them. When He was in the presence of the Pharisees, He'd lambaste them.
Right! People came to him. Most came to test. Others wanted his message. But he always spoke truth to all whether they liked that truth or not.
How do you know all this about Jesus? You don't read as much in the bible, literally. You simply extrapolate from what little you read, then you apply your own pre-conceived notions of what he might have said, what he might have meant, then you spout your own interpretations as the "truth."
If you were to get away from a sort of "worship" of that Jesus, and start to look deeply into your own mind and habits, then improve your life as a result, then you would have no need for the concocted lies of religion.
Just remember that if you had lived at that time when society was making fun of and trying to silence that weirdo preacher, it is most likely you would have been there throwing stones at him. If you see any person who is acting weird, and "different" today, I bet you behave in exactly the same way.
So.... the way forward is looking into your own conscience and meditating on your OWN truths, not building up the fictitious truths you want to believe.Awww... you mad?
I know Jesus because I want to. The biblical words spoken from and about him are more than adequate for painting a total picture of his mind. You have taken the information reported and made a decision without knowing him at all. You throw stones at the "weirdo preacher" I however, know better than that.I know Harry Potter because I want to. The written words spoken from and about him are more than adequate for painting a total picture of his mind.
Harry Potter exists you just can't see him because your mind is closed.If truth was a democracy Justin Bieber would be in a plural marraige with a million underage girls.
Yes, to the millions who have read the truth about Harry Potter he is real. Not that numbers mean anything, but do you have any evidence that counters my argument that Harry Potter is real?
He has to be real...
There are books proclaiming his life...
There are movies on his exploits...
And he goes to school in an alternate realm but lives in a normal city that we all can see.
He can perform miracles
He can defeat Evil
And he draws a crowd anytime he teaches.
Truer words have seldom been spoken, and rarer yet in the religion forums.
You know Jesus because you want to. Not because you actually experience, see, speak to or in any other way interact with him. Because you want to and will turn anything at all into confirmation (to you) that he is as you want him to be.
The words decided upon in Nicaea, the natural world around you, everything supports your desire because you want it to and will take whatever mental steps necessary to make it so.
Well said.Wow! You really stretched that response. My desire to know Jesus lead to actually knowing. Not on my terms. Not as I want, but as he wants. I cannot box God or Jesus. They told me how to come and ehat to expect once I did so. My mind cannot make up such awesomeness.
Oh, I think you have amply demonstrated here that your mind can, indeed, create such "awesomeness".
Though none of this is from my mind. How so? I haven't really given many of my words. The awesome is biblically inspired.
Inspired, yes, but the bible does not flesh it out into a perception of reality. It is, after all naught but words on paper.
It takes your brain to do that. To fill it out into something you find reasonable, to make it as real to you as your hand is. It takes your brain to "resolve" the inconsistencies and lies of the bible into something acceptable. It takes your brain to supply the details, both large and small, that are not addressed biblically. And it most definitely takes your brain to "see" God in the world around us.
It's kind of like reading a novel and being able to "see" the characters in your mind. They aren't there, but your imagination builds up a picture anyway - some details from the book and some from your own imagination. Like that but to the nth degree.That's fair. So which imaginary technique may I use to dream a dream about a daughter that I would have with a man who was many miles from me, two years beforehand? Let me get my pen... I need to dream the next powerball #.
Unfortunately, "dreaming" like that does not translate into reality. You accept and embrace your dreams as real, giving yourself feedback to confirm that, but it is not real. Only in your own brain is it considered real.
Huh? Now total denial...I didn't expect.
I am telling you about a dream that happened rather miraculously as it was many moons since I had had a child.
But hey, my miracle; your foolishness. Who wins???I suggest that if such a daughter should arise as you dream about, then she would always be living under the yoke of your ego. You would not have given her unconditional love and life.... she would continue to live the demands of your dreaming, surely.
If there was such an entity as that Jesus you have dreamed up, he would squirming in his grave trying to meet the demands of your dream.
I have had similar dreams....that can be seen as premonitions. But to automatically confirm that it is the work of an imaginary God....or that you possess some kind of preternatural power is shortsighted and ridiculous, as there is no known reason why this happens.
Are you saying you that I am shoving my beliefs done other people's throats? I am assuming that atheists come to these forums expecting Christians to speak about their beliefs. I do not think they come here just to converse with other atheists. If this forum was about cats and dogs and I started preaching then that would be considered shoving down my views.
Hmm, I agree completely.
What to do with this strange sensation. I'm more familiar with the one where I get irritated and think you're a cocky, inexperienced kid.
I like this one better.
Context.
Tepid had a question mark. Did you feel something when I asked? Obviously.
You may judge me as you deem fit. But you are not pointing to errs in my thought or deed. You are judging based upon the feelings behind the words spoken. Big difference. I do not attack the ungodly. I attack the frame of thought concerning scripture. If I spiritually see evil; it is imperative that it be pointed out. Jesus did not allow the ungodly to speak without response. How can I? He said tell it truthfully. I do that without wavering. When it hits me hard, I say "ouch" and keep proclaiming truth. It is truth that makes us free. Not "respect" for unbelief.Yes, we can see you have learned how to hate and you do it so well. That is what bible thumpers learn, how to hate others and bash the Bible over their heads, imperatively.
You see hate in scripture? God hates evil. He also points out what it looks like
We can see exactly what hate looks like by reading your posts, which is exactly what you have learned from your God. You even admit it... God hates evil.
Christ does not hate, but that is something you wouldn't know or understand.Christ hates what God hates. You don't understand that. Christ shows us the mind of God. They speak the same.
Sorry, but you are merely regurgitating the hate cult of Christianity, you don't understand Christ at all.
The only thing you can think about and post here is hate. Your own words reveal that fact.You see hate for sin in biblical scripture. Good...
No, I see hate in your posts and in the Bible, which you are far more interested in sharing than actually trying to behave like Christ. You appear obsessed with hatred and making sure everyone knows it.
A narrow-minded obsession with what you see written into a book, without a bit of intelligence and humanity thrown in, will not lead to a constructive argument, in my opinion. Try just looking a little wider at the real world around you. Drop the negative make-believe for a moment.
Surely...
lmao
The book is only 1 of my obsessions sitting at the feet of Jesus is another. Prayer. Constant consideration of my thoughts. What you lend your brain power to is important. What you contemplate speaks volumes. Good thoughts lead to good actions."Sitting at the feet of Jesus," all your deliberations to please an imaginary god, just to ensure your safe transport to an imaginary place after your death .....! All wrapped up in your concept of morals, and evil, and fear of the consequences. It sounds like all of your objectives and your efforts are selfish.
In the mean time, what happens to those people you perceive (through the eyes of your beloved "Jesus") who are immoral, sinful, likely to be banished from the "heaven" you imagine exists - sometime in the nebulous future?
There are individual persons in front of you who do not want to be judged by you and don't have a belief that they will be judged by your imaginary god. I am one of those persons.... not perfect in relation to your concepts of morality, but able and willing to give my love and care to this planet while I have the opportunity. Learning to open up, even just a little bit, to the imperfect brother or sister in front of me, without rejecting him or her, is difficult, but a necessary part of my life. Learning to limit my use of the various resources of the same planet is another part of my journey and leaves precious little time for worrying about theoretic morality and throwing stones.
In your terms, by your reckoning of what you read in your bible, I am a sinner, destined for absolute hell for ever more after my death. So be it.... I can live with that prospect because I know it is absolute nonsense, built up in your mind to appease those irrational fears you have.
And that pathetic, restrictive, fear-mongering god of your mind has no place in my life. Thanks all the same! If you wish to remain trapped in that self-built prison, that is your choice entirely.I almost peed my pants!
I had a marvelous day today!!! Thanks for asking! I am amazed that you have decided to respond in this manner. Btw... do you know ATM...personnally???
If you feel my God invisible... he IS for you. But!!! Anyone else who is willing to have faith may call. (On the main line ) he is manning all phones. Lol
So. I do not concern myself with H-E-double- hockey-sticks either We have FINALLY come to an agreement!!! Thank you Father!!! We have found peace...
What are Christians suppose to be....Jesus' pets or slaves or something? How can one feel good about themselves after behaving in such an undignified and slavish manner? If I can't meet with God as the man that I am, standing on my feet with self esteem and dignity, then He is not worthy of my attention.
Get up off the floor, and show some dignity and self respect. Oh my dear!I'm so glad you care!!!
the booster of SELF-esteem is probably one of your obsessions huh... I found peace with JCL. Last night/ this morning. Now WE have found our agreement!!! Halelujah! I haven't much SELF anything!!! we have found our peace...So glad have your Place of Pease. Is it somewhere near Cloud Cookoo Land? Just joking really, but if that is how you feel about your religion, then blessings to you.
In other words, you talked to yourself, but pretended to talk to a fictitious character in a fairy tale. Quite disturbing. I imagine you groveled at his feet, as well. Can't reduce myself to that level of servitude....even to a real person.
Sorry, but this seems to be mere drivel, designed to assuage the cognitive dissonance that my comment has exposed. Are you afraid that your brain would burst if you ever actually used your intelligence in an honest way, as opposed to evasive mumbo jumbo?Thank you for your obvious approval of the way I live my life. You can do yours how you wish too!!!
OK. So, by this answer, I suspect that you're agreeing that you prefer mumbo jumbo. Thanks
Wrong again
I prefer to be left to my father's business while you tend to your own personal agenda. I know you understand. Thanks!And just what is your father's business? What are your instructions for today?
I don't see it. Please explain your instruction for the day.
Well, my instruction is the same today, as it was yesterday. And it will be the same tomorrow. And next month; year, etc.
Drum roll please…..
Are you going to share?
Incoming message from the big giant head…
shh rad. .. signs posted already. Don't feed the trolls. The more the eat, the less sense thru make and the worse their English gets.
Thank you for the exhibition. I'm sure God appreciates it too.
I don't believe he has signed-up membership of Hubpages, so he would be here as invited guest if anything. Otherwise we should conduct our rant in private.
Invited guest! And where should your rant be conducted?
That's rather frightening....being that your "Father" is an imaginary character from an ancient book of childish fairy tales. It would probably make more sense to go about Mother Goose's business.
Yes, I have seen many rigidly fearful indoctrinated minds, spouting perplexing nonsense.
ThanksWell my dad's bigger-n yer dad. And my dad's gonna beat yer dad's butt... ( licking out my tongue just before I run off to play.
For God so loved the world that He drowned all of His helpless little children, then had His own son killed to appease Himself with even more bloodshed (John 3:16)
Even the worst abusive father on Earth is much, much better than your monstrous "Father"
But, of course, might makes right to the barbaric and fearful.Oh your answers are so clever.....Not! Just proves how indefensible your beliefs are.
I think your responses are clever-er. I mean how many ways does one come up with "you're crazy and you believe in boo-boo? You have found many! But still you are at the convention with a "kill Spidey" sign.
and you NEVER ONCE find the humorous delusion in that.
It makes about as much sense as a god impregnating a virgin with himself in order to sacrifice himself to himself to appease himself of the bloodshed required to eliminate laws that he himself created.
Really, JMcF, you are getting way too logical for this thread. Pardon my mirth.
Also takes credit for creating EVERYTHING, but when asked about creating EVIL, finds a way to back pedal on his original claim, and creates Satan to take the blame....while, at the same time, sticking with his original assertion of being the creator of EVERYTHING.
Make sense?Just to be fair, J, no one's ever claimed it made sense.
not true. Several of the believers here claim that it makes perfect sense :-)
I did not feel anything about it.. Adding a question mark does not change the intent or insinuation. The only thing I feel for you is pity that you have become so spiritually minded that you are little to no earthly good
No, I am pointing out errors in action on your part.. Big difference
.
exactly.. You attack anyone who has a different belief than you as well as those who have the same belief but a different view of scripture. You believe you are right and everyone else is wrong. You state that only God knows for sure and can judge then you turn around and tell everyone that they are wrong. Which is it?
You judge and attack that which you have said should only be done by God
And that's where I say again it would help if you actually understood me.. I do not respect unbelief anymore than they respect my belief. I respect their right to live how they choose to live without judgment even though I may disagree and still talk to them about God.
The difference between you and I is that while you are busy quoting scripture and pointing out errs and repeating what God says I am actually busy living the example that Christ set out. I point out discrepancies but I also show them respect and love.. I Love those who mistreat me.. etc..The question mark made the comment a question. No mistake about that. I know my intent; and so does God.
Living out what the bible says is multilayered. Tell the truth about scripture is a directive. Love your brother as you love yourself is a directive. I love myself enough to seek truth. I want to be told. You see me being prideful and mean. I see me being steadfast and unmovable (another directive). Nobody will point out my errors concerning scripture; but I get a lot of upset for not being 'fluid." Scripture is not fluid. You do not mention that Jesus spoke of scripture and correctly interpreted it for the masses. Some accept. Most don't. But he never allowed misinterpretation to stand. He stated that we should tell the truth and stand there. As he did. I consider it a waste of time to change the "story" or be wavery about it. The truth stands forever. Being understanding of evilspeak was not the way of Jesus. To say that there is no God is an evil beyond... Jesus would never have gone for that. "Ye who believe in me, believe also in my father..." scripture is the judge. Not me
For the record: the two posters who "rode" me earlier consider God and the ideas of him to be false fairy tale city where the mentally defunct and "dummies" play. Why then would being called evil or Satan be abhorrent??? They actually believe in the evil devil?
much "hootier" lolNot really. It gets irritating and insulting of one's intelligence (or lack thereof) to be continually beaten over the head and threatened with that which they do not believe in. It's not so much the threat itself that is the problem.. It's the constant repeating of it. Kind of like a song that gets stuck in one's head getting aggravating at some point.
For the atheists, they aren't threatened by God. They lack that belief in God. It's like someone who doesn't believe in santa being threatened with him not bringing any gifts on Christmas.. If it is repeated enough, you get sick of it.. Just like some believers get tired of being called delusional, crazy, ignorant, etc. It's not that you believe those words that you are being called, it's that the constant repetition of those words get tiring to youWe'll... I guess my work is done here...
I like the way you think with just one exception.
"However, as Christians, we are held to a higher standard of behavior than the unbelievers are"
I get what you are saying but you don't know what my standard of behaviour is.Sorry, I wasn't totally clear here.. I meant no offense.. Let me rephrase..
We are expected to act in accordance with what the Bible teaches us regardless of how we are treated by them.. I hope that is better..
by a higher standard... nevermind.. I didn't mean any offense or insult (Foot in mouth)
I know your standard of behavior (more or less). I have yet to meet an atheist that acted less than ethically or morally with poor character.. My apologies again to you and the othersNo offence taken, I guess I'm still a little sensitive (crying in my coffee) about the lack of compassion comment in the other forum. Wish I had me some yummy cake to go with the coffee, know anywhere I can get me some? Muffins would do.
There are two options with God; for or against. If you are constantly repeating that God is only for the delusional; truth will be constantly repeated. I can stop the music if I hear none.
but unbelief is biblically challenged. I point that out as I should.Yes, we can see you are on the side of a hate cult and that anyone who is against your hate cult will be hated as you are pointing out.
The cognitive "crew" should like that last one... or at least agree.
You can't force anyone to believe something that you feel is true, without black and white evidence. That said, I personally believe that there is a Being that created everything and is pure Love. I don't have black and white evidence. I just know what I feel.
I used to take my belief on faith. But recently, considering all the experiences I've read about relating to near death experiences (some of which were reported by doctors -- their own experiences), my faith in an afterlife and a supreme being has been strengthened. Even Atheists who have had these kinds of experiences, now believe.
All I can say is, those who don't believe in anything supernatural, will change their minds and see truth, when their time comes...if not in this life, then when they pass over. It's pointless to try to convince something of something that can't be proven on the current level of understanding.
This is a good reason not to discuss spirituality with those who can't see the possibility. All that does is just cause arguments and negativity. It's not a good frame of mind to put yourself in...Great points. The issue that usually debated on is not so much possibility but probability
A little critical thinking may help one see this in perspective. You may want to believe the stories of people who have been brought back to life and they may even seem real to those people or those people just want to make money on the sale of a book. But do we trust the thoughts of a brain deprived of oxogen?
Of course it makes no difference to you that there are scientific explanations for these NDEs. Sounds more like willful ignorance is what is strengthening your faith.
We will not see ANYTHING, because we will be dead. You too.
You have nothing, at all, to convince people of in the first place...that's why it's pointless.Scientific explanations?
Atheists cherry pick scientific explanations that they, in their elitist arrogance, think support their belief when often the science actually disproves their beliefs and they totally ignore science that dispels their beliefs.
I say beliefs because any objective researcher who examines science and/or Christianity can only come to the conclusion that it takes more faith to be an atheist than to be a believer in Christ. This is evidenced in the book "I don't have enough faith to be an Atheist" co-authored by Frank Turek who has debated atheists. Here are examples of the evidence that it takes more faith to be an atheist.
http://tsadjatko.hubpages.com/hub/I-don … an-atheist
When I read his book I realized there is something more than science involved with atheists, they are really caught in a spiritual battle which gives them no peace. The most vocal have experienced abuse or tribulation which has filled them with hate to the extent that they deny God and therefore despise anyone who believes in him.
And all that, Ranzi, is what is their problem.
I'm pretty vocal in these forums but not in my actual life and I am surrounded by believers and hate none of them for their beliefs. My wife's a believer and I'm rather fond of her. I think this is an attempt to demonize those who think differently then yourself so that you don't have to understand them.
I can think of a least two elite scientist who came to the conclusion there is no god after looking at the evidence. Richard Dawkins and Steven Hawking.Either demonize others or drag them down to the same level. Deciding that atheists base their life on "faith" or "belief" so that they are as silly as the theists seems a worthy goal to many believers. That way their reasoning process seems as good as that of anyone else instead of running their life from inside their own imagination.
The funny part of that is that there is nothing innately wrong with basing your life on an imagined, made up reality. If they would just learn to keep their beliefs behind closed doors where it belongs everyone would be happy.No one was referring to you - I and I'm sure Ranzi are referring to those that as she put it "fanatical soul destroying atheists who try and shatter any hope or peace of mind out of believers." If you aren't like that then why would you project what we say onto yourself? And you really don't know anything about Hawkings or Dawkins because Dawkins especially is exactly one of those Ranzi is describing.
So who is demonizing ? .. sounds to me like you are the one demonizing while we are just calling a spade a spade...and you know it. Dawkins, I know, is a prime example of someone who hated God and did so long before he became a scientist (the kind of atheist I described as cherry picking science) and a raving fanatic. Hawkings I don't know that much about.
Bottom line is Ranzi is wondering why some atheists can't be more like the way you say you are. I am curious though - did you watch the Turek video all the way through? If not, I wonder why. If so what did you think?
http://vimeo.com/15918981That would make Dawkins a complete idiot - hating something that isn't there - something he manifestly isn't. While we can all agree or disagree with what he says (I often disagree) he isn't an idiot, and neither is he a raving fanatic. Terms like that are usually reserved for those that call names on public forums...
You must not know anything about him, his troubled childhood, the insane things he has said. - he is a complete idiot and I wouldn't be surprised if he spends his last days in an asylum. http://townhall.com/columnists/dineshds … /page/full
BTW I am still waiting for you to give me the site where you claim the courts on Drakes Bay commented on the briefs - I'm waiting for the facts, not your version.
http://vimeo.com/15918981Actually I heard an interview with him a few weeks back where he talked about his childhood and when he began to no longer believe. He didn't seem angry or bitter and certainly seemed very smart and well educated. An idiot doesn't come to mind at all.
http://podcast.cbc.ca/mp3/podcasts/qpod … _94503.mp3
Ummmm, I tried to get through the video, but became bored as he constantly was selling his books, video and radio show. You will also note that he isn't even attempting to sell his stuff to non-believers as the knows what they will and say and how they will question his logic. He is in a church and trying to convince people who already believe to buy his book rather than convince non-believers he is right.
You demonize a group of people by telling other they hate you when you don't know what they think at all.Became bored? really! Well keep talking because you reveal more about yourself with every sentence than anything you are talking about...but then that is a typical character trait of Atheists. It is becoming more and more apparent that the reason you projected what was said about "fanatical soul destroying atheists who try and shatter any hope or peace of mind out of believers." onto yourself is that you are one of them, only more of a passive aggressive. http://vimeo.com/15918981
- And yet, Dawkins has talked about himself many times and never once stated he hated God. Obviously, you are just making that up.
A raving fanatic, too?
That's called intellectual dishonesty, dude.
Sounds like a great argument to me. I have seen occurrences of your exact explanation right here.
You're free to provide any example of that, if you can. At this time, it appears to be just pure nonsense that you just made up.
That is one of the silliest things I've read in a while.
Sorry, but reason, rationale and critical thinking do not amount to abuse, tribulation and hate, that is just ridiculous.
Wow, you really pull stuff out of thin air to defend your God. Incredibly dishonest.So you are saying that there are facts that support fairy tales, and dispel reality....and that Atheists are ignoring these facts? OK, lets see your facts that support these primitive fairy tales. SMH
Let's see...REALITY -vs- IMAGINARY CHILDISH NONSENSE. And you are recommending that the more reasonable choice would be imaginary childish nonsense? Makes perfect sense.
That's complete BS. How can any adult be so gullible and childish to believe the words of such a desperate charlatan?
I guess it's because of......Satan! Get thee behind me Satan. How absurd!
There is no evidence of any God or gods, so why would it take tribulations or abuse for someone to see that believing in things that are imaginary is very childish and psychologically disturbing. All it takes is common sense, and the courage to think. I think you have the former, now obtain the latter, and you will stop these dishonest and absurd assertions.Unfortunately, some of us are angrier than most. They are adamant that only "the weak/stupid" would accept.
Yes, and it does appear your anger originates from your religion, most likely because that is what your God teaches you.
Ok, so judgment has not prevailed this time either. Read again. See who exhibits anger.
Hmmmm, doesn't the bible say that God flooded the earth out of anger, not to mention the destruction of cities and genocide.
Sorry, but your hysterical laughter at the nonsense you post here is not anger, it is hysterical laughter. Do you know the difference?
Hysterical laughter --->Hmmm let us see... the word hysterical is derived directly from the word hysterectomy is derived from. Oh!!! Got woman problems??? Hysterical laughing here!!!
I have received a lot of anger here.No, you haven't, you have a received a lot of responses to your religious nonsense, which you mistakenly perceive as anger. Perhaps, you think that the constant laughing and shaking of our heads when we read your posts is anger?
No, it's all the name-calling and lies about what I say or think.
No one is calling you names, however they are all calling you out on the fact you are not speaking any truths.
What's anger got to do with it? It is apparent that the sheep mentality works better on the weak minded and less educated. Believers have nothing but fear of authority. Because of a lack of knowledge and understanding of reality, they have caved to a perceived authority, invented by charlatans long dead. How weak, to impose willful ignorance upon oneself, just because we can't stand up to an unjust authority.
Whoa... charlatan? Well I never!!!
Listen, this is not a line of thought that appeals to you I guess. You are more than welcome to treat me as unimportant, uninformed, and unintelligent; turn away and NEVER have to see or hear me again. Or, you may just continue to stay and talk...
There is thinking that those who speak for God should just "shut up;" but if you just look at the OP, you will notice a "call" to the "other" category of man. Why should God's side shut up? They were charged to speak to all who listen and to correct those who misunderstand. Those in the middle should just pay attention.
No! Those who speak for God shouldn't just "shut up" but should say something that actually doesn't sound like it came from within the walls of a mental institution.
Ah, the authority speaks.
It's always hilarious to see the intellectual dwarfs pretending to be giants.
Yes, indoctrination is a powerful tool, it relies on the success of accepting that which has no evidence so that one must evoke other forms of alleged knowledge. We all have feelings, but they can also be attributed to physical stimuli.
You obviously still do, there is no other way for the indoctrinated to hold their beliefs.
Hilarious. That's like saying getting a strike in bowling strengthens the belief in leprechauns riding unicorns.
It's just as pointless attempting to get someone to use their brains for thinking when their faith based, indoctrinated beliefs rule their worldview, especially when they're incapable of distinguishing fantasy from reality.
Yes, those who have created a fantasy world for themselves usually do cause a lot of conflict with those living in reality. But, whatever you do, never join reality and keep fighting the good fight.This is remarkably well stated! I have never thought of it in those terms before, but this makes complete sense. If a person wasn't interested in God, why would they care if a child prayed in school. On the other hand, if they were angry at God or didn't want there to be a God, even a child's simple prayer could be cause for disruption.
The only reason I can think of for someone not wanting a God to exist that promised eternal bliss would be if they thought that God to be a tyrant.
I think you're kind of missing the point. Children can pray in school all they want, but teacher or school mandated prayer in a public school isn't legal, and it defies the separation of church and state, and that's why I oppose it.
It has nothing to do with being angry at God. It's incredibly difficult to be angry at something that you don't believe exists. It is easy, however, to be angry at things that human beings do in the name of that deity that strip rights and freedoms away from others who disagree with them.
If people want religion to be taught in public schools, then they are opening the flood gates for all religions and not just theirs. Would Christian parents like their public school children to be lead in prayer to Allah and taught about Islam? Probably not. You cannot encourage the practice of one religion while excluding all of the others, or you're guilty of special pleading. Most Christian parents I know teach their own children about God when they are mature enough to ask questions and make informed decisions and vigorously oppose any religious instruction or prayer in public schools.Come, come. Do you think that "special pleasing" would bother the majority of Christians one tiny bit?
I'm not angry at sex, and I certainly don't want there to NOT be sex...
But I'd rather it not be displayed in the front of group of 7 year-olds. I would be very very angry.Well when you look at it from that perspective it makes perfect sense.
Yep. God/sex. Ok, onward Christian soldiers!!!
Without it, He would have had to resort to vegetative reproduction, and maybe that was the truth of the matter! Virgin birth and all that?????
It was more like an assertion that teaching sex in school (something they actually do) is the same...repulsive??? It just seemed so... Christian...
Or fission, like an amoeba.
Some of the young men I've met in the building trades would reduce themselves to a trillion single cells in just days.
My understanding of an atheist is that they do not ascribe to religious principles; in short they are like a person in the midst of football fans who doesn't watch the game or know the rules. The person who is not interested in football would not be in the midst of these discussions. There is no requirement to express anti-football views, simply walk away.
Clearly, those who call themselves atheists, aren't. they are more interested in religion than you can imagine. they are obviously angry because something happened in their lives and they apportion a certain blame to the Deity they don't believe in.
Like the guy who was divorced 20 yeas ago who can't shut up about his ex-wife, (while telling you how much he couldn't care less about her) or the guy who was fired and says he's glad, yet can't stop complaining about losing his job, the fact is, people who aren't interested in football don't join football forums, don't read messages about football, don't think about football.Perhaps they are studying why people are interested in football. So they keep asking the football fans why they are fans.
You said that so beautifully. I been using the Tooth Fairy and you brought it to life!!! I am really grateful! By the way, I DON'T EVER JOIN FOOTBALL ANYTHING!!! Just not interested. I am floored. Gimme a sec for a praise break.
I most certainly do not! I don't even feel angry at you for misconstruing my a-theist thoughts. I do, however, feel sad for you, that you cannot broaden your mind and your attitude to allow that all of our different points of view amount only to opinions. We can all live with them IF there is no bullying to believe one side or the other.
If there was any blame coming from me at all, it would be towards unintelligent humans, forcing their opinions on others, certainly not an imaginary judgmental god.Who is the one trying to FORCE opinion? By the way, you just labeled some "imaginary" God. Did you see that???
I have never tried to force you opinion along the way of atheism, Cgenaea. I have no wish to break down your christian faith and you cannot point to anywhere that I have addressed you with that in mind.
However, you apparently enjoy being here in the hubs. It seems you like the argument, you like displaying your anger and displeasure when someone calls you out on account of something you have said which is not factual. You like the fun of it.... right?
I know your christian faith; it was my faith for several years of my life. It has been my choice, for whatever reason, to move away from it. So don't feel that I can't or don't understand you.
Like Melissa, I would wish much broader life experience for you, and much more loving acceptance of my atheism from you. If you cannot afford me that love and acceptance, then you are not Christ-like. In my understanding.
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