If a newton says " In absence of external force every body will remain in its original state" then how people says that there is no God?
Friends! In my above question which I have asked to the disbeliever that if you believe that there is no God then how these biggest mechanisms of the world constantly happening around us are going on?
Are these mechanism are controlled by some forces which are not yet discovered? Or our so called problem solving approach hasn't solved this question yet.
Let us start with Newton first law of motion which states
“Everything will remain at the state of rest or motion, in the absence of external force”
Majority of the people consider Sir Isaac Newton as the father of physics as well as most intelligent person in history. This principle of motion is acting on every object of this universe from micro to macro objects. This statement of him clearly state that no object of this world can change its state. There is an external force involved on each object changing its state either physical or chemical.
This principle is self explanatory about the importance of external force which means that if there is no external force no object in the world will move or change its state.
If we consider this explanation as a universal truth it means that not a SINGLE LEAF ON EARTH WILL MOVE IN THE ABSENCE OF EXTERNAL FORCE
Now, some questions I would like to ask to a disbeliever from this world in which you and I are living.
The sun rises and sunset, Rain carried by the clouds and showers it on the world, Stages of moon, Blowing of winds……….etc.
These and millions of questions like that to be answered by some on Which EXTERNAL FORCE IS BEHIND IT?????
Answer of this question is if an external force is the prime agent responsible for the least to most massive processes of Earth.
This prime agent which is directly influenced on the universe is no other than GOD (ALMIGHTY)
And you were told a number of times that even if there is an external force guiding everything, it does not mean it is god or a specific god at that.
If you assert that it is gods doing, have fun proving it, because the laws of motion do not prove that claim at all. Thats like saying because roses exist, it must mean an external force of demonic gnomes put thorns on them so they hurt us.
I am not playing with these laws and one more thing roses exist and grows after passing through number of stages of development, without external force that is not possible they are changing their state. Thorns are grown during their development. If you pull them out you will be the external force, leading to change the state.
If I asked you how your house came about and I never seen it , then all logic would start with a contractor, land .blue prints, then builder, we would not say that house just built itself, you could get no one to agree with that, even though they never seen those responsible for the house existence , people build machinery all the time, it did not create itself , robots that can do what we do except but have children, yet we would say who made that who designed it.
Why can people go past the thought that there is a higher intelligence then us, we were made in his image to create and build, and many times it is a replica of what he has already done, the mind is a living computer, the eye is a perfect camera, the body itself is able to do combinations of wonderful things, yet man does not want to give him credit.
I will stray from the usual headache inducing argument of asking you to prove your god exists and ask if you can prove something else.
Can you prove that god is a man?
God is the highest supreme being of the entire universe. It is because of him all things came into existence, again I give you the example of a house ,we all know that it is impossible for any house to build itself. Even the design was planned, as this is true we also all have programs of DNA is a blue print that tell you who you are or how our make up is,that make you who are ,and me who I am. Cell always replace themselves to repair but always end up as you . This only is only a small thought but there is plenty more.
Ah - now this is a new type of god that did not create anything, but simply built it from existing materials.
Who created the materials that your god used to build the Universe?
I said already. God is not dependent upon building material to build any thing. He is independent.
He can create any thing from none and from none to every thing. Your birth is an example of it. Again think wisely.... come out of your nutshell
This question was not directed at you - it was directed at the person who said god builds the same way a house is built. Try at least to use your brain for thinking.
You repeating baseless claims does not help the conversation at all - try proving your claims. My birth is an example of god majicking things from nothing? How so? Please prove your claims.
This is my forum. Your all questions are directly or indirectly comes to me. I will defend my topic too
I see - I did not know that you owned this thread. My mistake.
You are not defending anything - you are repeating the same thing and not showing me anything. Please try and think wisely instead of doing this. All you have to do is prove your claims.
I hope you have not written my major text. Read and then think...
I have read and thought. Please at least try and use reason instead of repeating your false claims.
All you need to do is show me your proof. Or at least give some reasons behind your claims. Why have you not done so?
Ahh, the old "everything needs a creator" except of course the creator. Special pleading.
“Ex nihilo nihil fit .” Put plainly , something can't originate from absolutely nothing . ( Not Hawking’s as well as Krauss’ mendacious pseudo-definition of “nothing,” ( “The Grand Design”/ ”A Universe From Nothing“ ) however the notion that signifies no state of affairs , interactions , potentialities , qualities , that is, stated more forcefully , no “anything” . ) If it actually could , why don’t all kinds of things come from nothingness ? Just why aren't dinosaurs , for example , popping out of thin air , devouring everybody in sight ? Why aren't we terrified of elephants suddenly popping into being and crushing us while they rained down from the skies ? If nothing can in fact yield anything exactly why would it discriminate ? Conspicuously , then , this contravention of the laws of nature is exposed as misguided special pleading .
Additionally , from the entirety of human experience , knowledge , wisdom , empiricism as well as findings we’ve distilled many other explicit , irrefragable realities including :
- A posteriori causality
- Being does not emerge from nonbeing
- Whatsoever begins to exist has a cause
- Information cannot spring from disarray
- Fine-tuning does not emanate from randomness
Presented with such unshakable abecedarian truths , the natural questions that follow are , “Where did the universe originate from 13 .70 billion years ago ?” or “What triggered it to come into existence to begin with ?” No matter the cause , it needs to possess a number of key characteristics .
Which means that -
( 1 ) Whatsoever begins to exist has a cause .
( 2 ) The space-time universe began to exist 13 .70 billion years ago .
( 3 ) Thus , the space-time universe has a cause .
( 4 ) The cause of the universe is a transcendent , beginningless , spaceless , immaterial , timeless , unchanging , omnipotent good personal being .
( 5 ) A transcendent , beginningless , spaceless , immaterial , timeless , unchanging , omnipotent good personal being is the definition of God Almighty.
( 6 ) Hence , God Almighty caused the universe to exist 13 .70 billion years ago .
Now , let’s take a more detailed look at each one of the premisses of this elegant syllogism . Foremost , this cause must per se be uncaused . Why ? Simply because an infinite regress of causes does not have any basis in reality ; it can’t be turtles all the way down . ( http://bit.ly/1o2W0vq )
Next , this uncaused cause needs to transcend space-time since it itself created space-time . It is , as a result , spaceless .
Third , considering the fact that this uncaused cause exists beyond space and time it is must be a non-physical or immaterial cause . Why ? Because physical stuff exists only in space – they possess dimension .
Fourth , this uncaused cause must invariably also be timeless for the simple fact that it itself doesn't exist in space-time .
Fifth , it must likewise be changeless . As I'm sure you're well aware , all of matter is present in a state of continuous flux . This is particularly observable at the atomic level . Given that this uncaused cause is immaterial it is not governed by the same forces that alter matter , and so , is unchanging .
Sixth , this uncaused cause is without a doubt unimaginably powerful , if not omnipotent , for it produced matter , energy , space and time into existence entirely on its own .
So , to sum up , whatever it is that brought about the universe to come into existence 13 .70 billion years ago it needs to be beginningless , spaceless , immaterial , timeless , unchanging and omnipotent .
Still we're not done for there are two more attributes of this uncaused cause that we are able to ascertain from what we perceive of the universe . Before we identify these , though , we first want to take a finer look at cause and effect . Here's exactly what I mean : if a cause is sufficient to yield it's effect then the effect also needs to be present . The pair are joined at the hip , so to speak ; you can't have one without the other .
Permit me to borrow from an illustration to help make this sharper . “Suppose that the cause of water’s freezing is the temperature’s being below 0°C . If the temperature were below 0°C from eternity past , then any water that was around would be frozen from eternity . It would be impossible for the water to just begin to freeze a finite time ago . Once the cause is given , the effect must be given as well .” ( http://bit.ly/WQtgZY )
The problem is , if we have indeed a timeless , transcendent cause how come the effect isn’t permanent as well ? Stated another way , if this timeless , transcendent cause in fact brought the universe into being , why hasn't the universe always been ? Just how can a cause be eternal yet its effect commence a finite time ago ? We are aware the universe is roughly about 13 .70 billion years old but as you see we've further deduced that whatsoever brought about the universe has to be transcendent as well as timeless .
The one and only way that is feasible is if this timeless , transcendent , uncaused cause were at the same time a free agent – a being with free will who is able to operate of its own volition . Naturally we all know free will is the hallmark of personhood .
Last but certainly not least , this beginningless , spaceless , immaterial , timeless , unchanging , omnipotent being must be unimaginably good . Why ? Suppose we admit for the sake of argument that he’s evil . As this being is evil , that suggests he fails to discharge his moral duties . But then exactly where do those originate from ? Just how can this evil being have obligations he is violating ? Who forbids him to do the immoral things he does ? Right away , we discover such an evil being simply cannot be supreme . There needs to be a being who is even greater , one who is absolute goodness himself and thus the source of the moral responsibilities this other prefers to shirk . Therefore , there must necessarily exist a supreme being who is all powerful , all good and all loving ; One who is the very paradigm of good .
So here we arrive at this uncaused cause of the universe 13 .70 billion years ago that is beginningless , spaceless , immaterial , timeless , unchanging , omnipotent and personal being who is all good and all loving .
This is to say - God Almighty.
So - something can indeed originate from absolutely nothing.
You're not making sens. How do you mean?
You are the one not making sense. You claim that something cannot come from nothing - and then give an exception. An "uncaused cause" is an exception.
RA why do you read my post . You are the one that is set on disagreeing I really do not post my comments to you . And I am really trying to be polite not causing any argument but with you .you do not know how do reply with out being disrespectful . Please do not reply to my post of answers .I will not answer you any more.
An uncaused cause is not an exception because, by definition, an uncaused cause must necessarily be eternal; it's always been! As I explicated before, it can't be turtles all the way down ...
Every thing needs a cause - except your uncaused cause huh?
Explicate all you like.
"Every thing needs a cause" [sic]
That's your claim not mine.
It is an irrefragable abecedarian truth that you did make that claim.
Dear me. I don't need to prove it - it is an irrefragable abecedarian truth.
No wonder this religion causes so many wars.
Not a surprise that you don't understand.
Interesting doesn't necessarily imply useful or productive.
I'm personally getting tired of trying to educate. One guy doesn't appear to understand English and the other simple biology.
Then you're argument is merely a fallacious argumentum assertio.
I think that everything that comes into being, has a cause. This is where there is a difference. Everything that comes into being has a cause that is sufficient for the effect we see.
So your Invisible Super Being didn't need to come into being? Everything else needed to come into being - except the Invisible Super Being? The one exception.
Doesn't matter which semantic approach you take - there has to be an exception. Perhaps you guys should start saying "most things need to come into being/have a beginning/need a cause, but there are some things that do not," instead of using the word "everything,"?
The word "that", after the word "everything", makes the distinction well enough I think. Everything that comes into being would have a cause. This implies that anything that does not come into being, does not. The same applies if the idea is presented the same, no matter how you state it exactly. I see your point, to a degree, with the clarification added or reminder.
To the first part, whatever "it" is, needs to have the same attributes. I don't know of, nor have heard of, or have any reason for believing in any other such thing to date.
So - your Invisible Super Being did not come into being then? Presumably that is why it is undetectable and invisible.
A God such as the one so often in discussion in these forums, would not have come into being as you state. We have different conclusions from that is all.(perhaps)
My point is that whatever the being is, it would have always existed, which is consistent with being a sufficient cause for the effect we see in the universe, including us.
You now have some sort of evidence that there was a "before" time began and something existed in that "time" and "space"? But it just happens the only "evidence" is the fact that the Universe exists?
Really - all you are doing is finding new ways to say exactly the same thing. Your god gets the get out clause and everything else needs to have a cause outside of reality. Except your god.
Well, it might seem like a cop out, but if we remove that it is "god", then whatever it is, gets the same "treatment" as god. It also would by necessity need certain qualities, a minimal set of qualities to be a sufficient cause for the effect we see.
As for evidence, we have different standards of what qualifies as evidences for sufficient causes for certain effects. I don't think we actually really do have different standards, but at times it seems like we do when it comes to origins, and the possibility of Jesus existing and doing what Jesus did, etc.
Whatever it is, gets out of the clause, and is necessary, and not because anyone says so, but because of our reality. I think it is our reality that dictates what the cause has to be, at least minimally. It could be much greater than what we know it would have to be, but there is at least a minimum of things that have to be in place, as I see and understand it.
No - reality doesn't really dictate there has to be a super natural invisible cause that exists outside of space and time. Sorry.
See and understand? What do you see exactly?
Evidences? What evidences are we talking about?
As far as Jesus existing and performing majick tricks - what does this have to do with a super natural being that exists outside of time and space? There is absolutely no evidence of this person Jesus existing outside some claims in a particular book. None. As for the majick tricks - well - I simply don't believe in majick so I cannot accept them either. Still don't get what that has to do with the super natural creation of reality from nothing.
I know we disagree on a lot, but if there were a god as I think there is, he would happen to be a perfect cause for the effect we see, which isn't an easy fit to find. I see that what was written about God by the gospel writers would also happen to fit in perfectly with a cause that fits the effect we in our universe (scientifically), and also addresses the biggest problems facing humanity. (Even the conflict would be explained, no matter what people from whatever worldview is causing it.)
Jesus matters because he was God's main revelation of himself to humanity. I don't believe in magic either, by the way. Jesus showed the same kind of power over things most humans don't have, just like the being that caused universe to come to what it is now known. This takes what would definitely look like "magic", like it or not The big bang, is quite magical, for example, imo. It doesn't mean it doesn't exist, or isn't real or possible, because of its seeming magical qualities.
Edit: When I say our origins look like magic, I say that in response to you saying what Jesus did being magic. If calming a storm, or healing a blind person or lame person, rising from the dead seems like magic, then how much more so all we see around us from second one of our universe till now? That is where I am coming from on that point.
Edit: So in fairness, it is kind of two different things, yet very connected in many ways. The kind of ways that its ironic that the old writers (if just writing what men wanted to write to trick people to control them) got it so "right", that it happens to explain things to perfectly, ongoing.
Also, Jesus was there in the beginning, he stepped into our world and became human, but that wasn't his first existence. Jesus came from that time from before time as we technically know it.
The premise that all matter and energy began to exist 13.70 billion years ago is not a religious declaration nor a theological one. You can find this statement in any contemporary textbook on astrophysics or cosmology. And it is supported by the vast majority of cosmologists today.
The Borde-Vilenkin-Guth Theorem, for instance, proves that any universe, that has, on average, a rate of expansion greater than one ** must ** have a ** finite beginning **. I'm not making this up. Read the paper in full or watch Vilenkin himself invalidate and impugn beginningless universe models like Eternal Inflation, Cyclic Evolution and Static Seed/Emergent Universe on youtube.
As such, Vilenkin had this to say regarding the beginning of the universe, "It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. With the proof now in place, cosmologists can no longer hide behind the possibility of a past-eternal universe. *** There is no escape, they have to face the problem of a cosmic beginning ***. (Many Worlds in One [New York: Hill and Wang, 2006], p.176) (Emphasis mine.)
As Theoretical Physicist and Cosmologist Stephen Hawking put it, “the final nail in the coffin of the Steady State theory came with the discovery of the microwave background radiation, in 1965.”
Emphatically, then, the fervent belief that the universe is infinitely old, beginningless, or eternal has no basis in any respected mainstream scientific theories of the universe.
This creates the necessity for a first uncaused-cause. After all, something cannot come from nothing as I've already shared. I've also explained that this first uncaused efficient cause must also, by necessity, be transcendent, beginningless, timeless, spaceless, immaterial, unchanging, omnipotent, personal and good. As it turns out, such is the very definition of All Loving God.
But before you do that - go read some of these papers you are copy pasting from. Odd that there was something "before" time began - pretty sure The physicist you are copy pasting from would disagree with you.
You object to such a question because you state, correctly, that time began with the Big Bang. But this conclusion obtains if and only if we equate the perception of time with analytical measures of time . This reductionistic perspective is glaringly misguided for a succession of mental events by itself is sufficient to establish relations of before and afterwards , entirely devoid of any kind of material occurrence . Which means that there could be a point in time in which God Almighty fashioned the original cosmological singularity , regardless of whether that instance is not in material time .
"Even if God is timeless sans creation, His creating the universe can be simultaneous with the cosmic singularity. Such an appeal to metaphysics is not illicit because Hawking makes the metaphysical claim that God cannot create the universe because the singularity is not in physical time. In any case, even if we do accept this reductionistic move, all that follows is that God did not create the universe at a time. We can still say that God’s creating the universe was coincident with the singularity (that is, they occur together at the boundary of spacetime), and by creating the singularity God created the universe."
Cut and pasted from here:
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forums/p … tart.3645/
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/hawkings … e-creation
If you don't have your own opinions and just want to cut and paste the same drivel - just say so.
Ignoratio elenchi. You evaluate an argument based on the body of facts and information presented, not its provenance. Try again.
Ignoratio elenchi - you got me on that one! Must get back to bed, it's 4.22am and getting cold. Might get out the Philosopher's Stone and read it again...
Alright, without units of time you cannot count units of time.
That only applies to analytical measures of time. The perception of time, however, is mind dependent.
I am not evaluating an argument - you have simply cut and pasted some one else's poor opinion.
If you want to discuss something then make an argument and I will discuss. If you want to cut and paste some one else's poor reasoning - I am not really interested.
Sorry but Dr. Graig is not understanding what the absence of time would mean purposely. And that purpose is to hang on to the notion that he will get an afterlife. He even goes so far as to say God could count the time leading up to the singularity and the big bang.
"So if God were counting down to creation, “. . . , 3, 2, 1, Let there be light!”
Love this, special pleading. And or, how can you or anyone pretend to know what exists outside our universe?
I would disagree that it is special pleading, to discuss ideas of what kinds of things could be sufficient for the effect we see. No pretending needed, to know that there are some minimum things that have to be in play, for something to be considered a possible cause.
The argument does become rather cumbersome and a bit pointless..... unless you understand the meaning of the verb "To Be."
In our understanding, as physical, finite (i.e., definable) entities, to Be means, JUST THAT!
If you talk of a supernatural entity, that cannot be defined because it has no form, then how can we talk of it "being?" If that entity is infinite and pervades everything, every nook and cranny, every available location that it's possible to imagine, then that entity is totally the opposite to our physical, finite "Being."
This is why you need to bring into the equation your desire to "believe." Believing automatically negates the need to define, to be specific, to identify. You talk of it in which ever way you like, no one can refute what you are believing, because that mental process is all tied up in the functioning of your brain. Argue until you are blue in the face, no one else can exactly describe what thoughts are in your mind.....
All this again points to the nonsense of arguing the nature of a supernatural "God." Such an entity lives IN your brain and no where else.
I agree: Its in your brain. Reality can be either made up
or DIRECTLY perceived. Meditation enables direct perception.
Just to Let You Know.
According to me and many other CREDIBLE sources!
Which is my argument precisely! Finally, someone with some actual reading comprehension skills
Yes, God would be a being. That is one thing.
That is not what I am talking about however. We are talking about things that come into a state of being. (Which could include beings, like you and I.)
1. Some things come into being.
2. This universe and humanity points to a cause that did not come into being, but has always been. Anything that doesn't fit that criteria, seems to fail at some point in the process of explaining a cause that is actually sufficient for the universe, as I understand it.
1. But that would be a logical fallacy, of the special pleading kind.
and 2. What make you think you can know what exists outside of space and time, what makes you think anything exists outside space-time. How would anything without time have the time to get anything done.
I would be open to look at how you think anything I have said is illogical.
I think its a good thing to esteem an idea as good that avoids contradictions. I am speaking in/on these ideas since I came in this discussion. If I were to hold onto and idea that has contradictions within it, well that would be truly illogical.
But you did claim to know what exists outside of time and space. This is illogical and contradicts reality.
Guess you can let that one go now then?
I think science and our reality supports the things I have said, as well as necessity. If you think something I have said does not seem logical, please show. Time began, our universe began. This implies many inherent truths within it. Time and space as we know it is just that. "As we know it." Something is the cause of that beginning. Saying that it has to be sufficient for the effect, seems very logical to me.
A few things, we don't know if there was a cause, as I said before we have evidence of things happening without cause within this universe, therefore we have no way of knowing if anything needs a cause or not outside the universe.
Special pleading, this happens when you say everything needs a cause except your god. You've made one exception which is a logical fallacy. The problem with that statement gets even worse because even if it's as you say and only God needs no cause because be was outside our universe then the singularity would also need no cause because it was outside space-time and our universe.
To recap, it's a logical fallacy to say that only God needs no cause and it's worsened by the fact that you concede that the singularity was outside the universe and needed a cause.
Why not omit God and simply say the singularity was outside space-time therefore needed no cause?
No - science and our reality supports no such thing. This is where your illogic comes in. Your claim to know that something is the cause is illogical. "As we know it" is all we know and is actually definitive - you are now claiming - illogically - that you know different.
Wow, it's funny how some will skew logic to fit their own dreams.
"( 1 ) Whatsoever begins to exist has a cause."
You've started with an error. Although the big bang isn't described as something from nothing it can be argued that we do in fact see things that come from nothing therefore something from nothing doesn't break any physical laws. Therefore whether begins may not need a cause.
"( 2 ) The space-time universe began to exist 13 .70 billion years ago .
( 3 ) Thus , the space-time universe has a cause ."
Second error brought about by your first error. After this there is no need to continue but the logic doesn't hold because your first statement is false.
The problem with imagining something timeless that created the universe is that it would need to to create the universe and it it's self would need a cause if you are going to say everything needs a cause.
Science without a doubt does not have experience of stuffs popping into being ex nihilo sine causa. Bohmian mechanics, for instance, is completely deterministic and furthermore emphasizes that every indeterminacy is actually conceptual.
“Being never arises from nonbeing”, “something will not originate from nothing” are putative metaphysical principles, just like cause and effect, unhindered in their application. Hence, we certainly have excellent grounds , both abstractly as well as scientifically, for reasoning that whatsoever begins to exist has a cause.
"The problem with imagining something timeless that created the universe is that it would need to to create the universe and it it's self would need a cause if you are going to say everything needs a cause."
That's a Strawman. Where do I claim that everything needs a cause?
Oh okay, so then you made another logical fallacy. Special pleading, Everything needs a beginning except for God.
The simple fact is wether the universe popped into existence like things that happen at the sub-atomic level or the universe was created out of like a massive black hole compressing all matter into a very tiny size it can be explained both ways without a God.
Your first statement was flawed on a few levels, fix it and try to come to the same conclusion.
Well it does not matter how much proof or what is presented you are satisfied with your choice of an answer. I accept that as your right
but I do not accept that as a truth.
again you mix the conditions of world as God's will
not true either. When will people admit that Government after Government man has tried to rule himself and what do we have now man has lead us all to nuclear destruction, not only that but killing us with pollution, is that God's fault .
and what about crime in your community some one decided it is to their advantage to snatch a purses, or take belongings and home invasions .man thinking he has to answer to no one.
Even the law needs law.
I have heard some helpful information here on this subject and I have also learned that no matter how you want some one to understand they will not even when there is no excuse for them not to.
I take exception to the use of "man" as implying our species. If you say "some men" have led to all our problems in this world (also implying of course that some women have been part of the problem), then yes, that would be true.
When I say man that includes WOMAN notice man is still part of the name .
That was not my emphasis. You are saying, are you not, that "Man," ie the human species is at fault in the eyes of your god?. This the guilt/punishment basis of christian teaching.
I am saying address the error(s) and responsibility of individuals who are at fault, don't pile it all onto humanity as a whole.
What if god was a woman - would that put a lot of people off-side? Might alter the demographics a bit .... and her relationship with her Son!
Just asking, that's all....
What if god wasn't the god you think it is? Maybe its name is Cthulhu, Odin, Juno, Freyja, or Set? Maybe it's not a male deity but a female deity. Maybe there is more than one deity.
After all, Christianity doesn't hold a monopoly on gods or goddesses. How do you know when there have been around 5000 different pantheons in human history?
Well I know the truth when I hear it. The bible clearly says man was created in his image. Man exist. Women was created after Adam that is true also woman exist, the sun the moon the stars exist also .that is visible as prof as being true, also the cycles of how the earth recycles for our human needs.
What you are correct about is gods. People can make anything a god. The bible is also correct in this fact.Palms115: 2-8 Why should the nations say: “Where is their God?” 3 Our God is in the heavens; He does whatever he pleases. 4 Their idols are silver and gold, The work of human hands. 5 A mouth they have, but they cannot speak; Eyes, but they cannot see; 6 Ears they have, but they cannot hear; A nose, but they cannot smell; 7 Hands they have, but they cannot feel; Feet, but they cannot walk; They make no sound with their throat. 8 The people who make them will become just like them, As will all those who trust in them.
The earth is full of Idols and false gods. True also.
The bible clearly tells our history and also things no human can know but a higher being then humans,
The world powers as an example. They are also in our history books .
Prophesy spoken and becoming a reality is also truth .
The greatest proof is also death, man is born ,but man is born with a defect in the genes to die.
There are many things that things just do not exist on its own.
You choose to mis-quote.
In fact it was "let us make man in our image..." - plural.
However, I firmly believe christians and other mono-theists have made "god" in their own image for convenience.
I think that is supposed to be the "Royal We."
Because there are many gods people worship the one and only true God is referred to by the name of Jehovah! Over 7000 times in Hebrew and Greek .
We all have names I will use his name to explain what happened.
New World Translation Ge 2:4 This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time they were created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven.
Notice this information covers more detailed history here.
New World Translation Ge 2:7
7And Jehovah God went on to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living person. ( KT ,Is that hard to believe since people give mouth to mouth to get people to breath again?)
8 Further, Jehovah God planted a garden in Eʹden, toward the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9 Thus Jehovah God made to grow out of the ground every tree desirable to one’s sight and good for food and also the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and bad.
15 And Jehovah God proceeded to take the man and settle him in the garden of Eʹden to cultivate it and to take care of it. 16 And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. (KTNotice to man ,Eve was not created yet ) 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, forin the day you eat from it you will positively die.”( KT first Law) 18 And Jehovah God went on to say: “It is not good for the man to continue by himself. I am going to make a helper for him, as a complement of him.” 19 Now Jehovah God was forming from the ground every wild beast of the field and every flying creature of the heavens, and he began bringing them to the man to see what he would call each one; and whatever the man would call it, each living soul, that was its name. 20 So the man was calling the names of all the domestic animals and of the flying creatures of the heavens and of every wild beast of the field, but for man there was found no helper as a complement of him. 21 Hence Jehovah God had a deep sleep fall upon the man and, while he was sleeping, he took one of his ribs and then closed up the flesh over its place. 22 And Jehovah God proceeded to build the rib that he had taken from the man into a woman and to bring her to the man.
23 Then the man said: “This is at last bone of my bones And flesh of my flesh. This one will be called Woman, Because from man this one was taken.”
(KT Notice Eves warning from Adam was even greater not to look or touch it.)
Well we all know she listen to satan voice through a snake he totally deceived her ! the whole story it is as plain they both took something that did not belong to them. Stealing!, nothing mythical about that, people steal everyday, next satan lied ,the first lie, that they would not die, nothing mythical about that, since they had not birth any children before the betrayal ,they were going to die not instantly ,but they slowly aged and died . Ge 5:5 So all the days of Adam that he lived amounted to nine hundred and thirty years and he died.
Today any one older then a hundred is called a Centenarian !you can go to Wilkipedia for details
Not mythical right!.
They continued to be parents of all humans today. In all our genes we are flawed because of them . We all can die. That is what science is still bringing out which is not mythical.
Also a cure for us was in the making ,He had arrived and finished his mission for our future to continue to live on earth in a paradise earth from the very beginning.is that hard to believe when earth does still have beautiful gardens.
What became of satan who used the serpent to throw his voice from. He is the ruler of this world! You see he challenge God's right to rule over what he had created. Remember he lied and said they would not die, do humans die ? Yes ever since this happened. Good people,bad people, babies that have not even started do anything wrong die.
Proof .there is nothing mythical about that reality.
We all live this everyday. But the end of it is very soon. how ?
Reference Bible Re 21:4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”
How does this all end ?
the challenge has been settle we see the results of satans's rulership over the earth ,the earth is a total mess economically ,financial social hatred, pollution, Even full of lies that satan has spread.
And yes catastrophic deaths.
The scriptures make it clear Reference Bible 1Jo 5:19 We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the [power of the] wicked one. Ever since Adam and Eve. There is nothing Mythical about the truth we all are effected and we all have a hope for the future return of earths paradise.
A collection of myths and metaphor. As believable as the Harry Potter books.
Intead of letting you mind and your life be hooked into this dark forboding negativity, do something courageous and practical to counter the satanic force you are so worried about.
Sort out your own life. I do likewise with my life.
How do you know your god is the one true god?
Oh, so you believe your god exists because the bible exists.
I have proof that Spiderman exists! I have a book called "The Amazing Spiderman."
prove me another thing lady. You have given bible and you compare it with spider man. That shows, how much educated you are. In that case, I don't believe on your gravity show me the gravity?????
No that shows your lack of objectivity.
But how do you know about god, I have never let him out of my compound, let alone to Pakistan?
This type of comment shows immaturity in your discussion... Be mature and then comment.
Please practice what you preach.
You put forward a childish claim and asked others to disprove it which is akin to proving superman don't exist. You put forward a fiction, bible, to substantiate your claim which is just like putting a marvel comic to prove superman. When someone pointed it out to you you started insults. So again, practice what you preach.
First of all. I m not preaching. I m proving a fact. Why should I practice it, I only believe on God... I didn't ask anyone to disprove it. I ask to accept this proven fact. But it is beyond your immature mind
God is not a proven fact and you have failed to give any arguments other than repeating yourself.
Some of us have higher standards of proof. We've followed you all the way back to "who/what created God" and all of a sudden your 'proof' is no longer relevant. Kind of a flimsy argument.
If someone took a running start out of a third story window, i am pretty sure they would believe in gravity. Hospital bills suck
If you compare bible with spider man. Than make the 3rd floor into 6th floor.
Actually bible should not be compared to spiderman, spiderman is far better.
You could survive a fall from the third floor, gravity will make sure to kill you if you fell from the 6th.
Aside from that, i have absolutely no idea what this comment was supposed to mean.
Sure, pick up a book. Let go.
Now, why do you consider Spiderman to not be real?
To Maggie I believe in the book that mentions your existence as you speak . You are not fiction.
If I find my name in that book, I'll be impressed. If it says a child will be born in North America in 1964 and will be called RAD MAN you'll have me. I'll convert right now on the spot.
No, it does not mention my existence. My name is not written anywhere in the Bible.
Maggie you are a woman and Eve was called a woman ,Reference Bible Ge 2:23 Then the man said: “This is at last bone of my bones And flesh of my flesh. This one will be called Woman, Because from man this one was taken.”
You existence is recognized here. Not in spider man. You even keep the name woman by all society, through a job, through applications ,through many situations that name woman keeps standing.
You must understand how and why it was written that women came from men right. This was written by men for me. The reality is rather different isn't it. Men are actually half women and early in our life we were all women. It's just another example of ignorant men attempting to gives themselves entitlement over women and slaves.
Every man ever on the planet came from a woman. That's an unacceptable truth, so we'll change it to a more positive belief that man "gave birth" to woman, keeping her firmly in her place as a subservient, inferior creature.
As written Man was created first. He had been by himself awhile before the first surgery was done to create his mate Eve.
Reference Bible Ge 2:21 Hence Jehovah God had a deep sleep fall upon the man and, while he was sleeping, he took one of his ribs and then closed up the flesh over its place.
Reference Bible Ge 2:22 And Jehovah God proceeded to build the rib that he had taken from the man into a woman and to bring her to the man.
24 That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he will stick to his wife, and they will become one flesh. 25 And both of them continued to be naked, the man and his wife; yet they were not ashamed.
Simple the first pair of humans. They directly was created by God himself no birth. From then on All humans were birth by women first is Eve.
Reference Bible Ge 4:1 Now Adam had intercourse with Eve his wife and she became pregnant. In time she gave birth to Cain and said: “I have produced a man with the aid of Jehovah.”
I would be dumb to argue over Spiderman's existence if I know he doesn't exist.
Obviously those denying the existence of God have a hard time convincing themselves.
But unless you believe in Spider man you will be punished by the Great Spider in the sky, and I am going to spend time and money trying to force your children to pray to Spider Man every day at school. Will you still be dumb enough not to argue against it?
Obviously those claiming to believe in god are struggling with the facts contradicting their beliefs. If they did actually believe - I feel certain they would stay at home worshiping in private as Jesus told them to do.
That's adorable except that you're comparing apples to oranges. Unlike comic books the Bible is proven to be the Inspired Word of All-Loving God: http://bit.ly/1d0Y82v
You mean the all loving God that left instructions on how to sell our children to slavery?
"Imagine a person who comes in here tonight and argues 'no air exists' but continues to breathe air while he argues. Now intellectually, atheists continue to breathe - they continue to use reason and draw scientific conclusions [which assumes an orderly universe], to make moral judgments [which assumes absolute values] - but the atheistic view of things would in theory make such 'breathing' impossible. They are breathing God's air all the time they are arguing against him."
- Greg Bahnsen
Oh, that has nothing to do with my post, but we are not arguing air doesn't exist.
Now why again would an all loving God leave instructions on how to sell our children to slavery?
Where did G-d give instructions to sell the children to slavery?
Please quote from G-d
Exodus 21:7-11 NLT
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not satisfy her owner, he must allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. But if the slave’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave but as a daughter.
Only a "true" Christian can exhort others to be honest and say this many lies.
The only thing that is proven is bible is a book written by humans who claim to be from god to grab power and fill their stomachs and in case of some popes of yore and some religious "leaders", get free sex.
Think up lady...Awake! God is independent of genders. May be you need to be a lady to prove your identity. God doesn't. That thing is beyond gravity. May there is a gravity to involve in whether the fetus should be boy or girl.
Independent of genders? Oh, then Jesus was an it?
You know they had their own relatives at that time , through other children born ,there was no law or concern about incest ,not until years later during Moses time.that was when the law was written .like a copy machine and it's ink. After so many copies from the master copy the ink will fade and will not be as strong as before. We are far from that perfection of master copies. So that is like trying to make a copy from a defect which makes a defect.
They had relatives? Where in the story does it say anything about relatives. The story says Eve was the first women and had to boys. Where did they find wives?
If you have ever read the bible the bible says he made man in his image. The word his,means not female.
Reference Bible Ge 1:27 And God proceeded to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them.
Remember he created man first. The women came later as stated.
Please consider more updated scientist proof.
In the field of human genetics, the name Mitochondrial Eve refers to the matrilineal most recent common ancestor (MRCA) of all currently living anatomically modern humans, who is estimated to have lived approximately 100,000–200,000 years ago. This is the most recent woman from whom all living humans today descend, on their mother’s side, and through the mothers of those mothers, and so on, back until all lines converge on one person. Because all mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) generally (but see paternal mtDNA transmission) is passed from mother to offspring without recombination, all mtDNA in every living person is directly descended from hers by definition, differing only by the mutations that over generations have occurred in the germ cell mtDNA since the conception of the original "Mitochondrial Eve".
Figuratively "Eve," not literally. It happened that humans nearly went extinct at least two times and her genetics won out over other women's genetics.
Surely, you don't believe in the Adam and Eve hogwash?
Let us create Man (mankind) both male and female did he make man
In the context written, man is both male and female
God is independent of Gender. You humans are depend upon it, to prove your identity.
Is that a 'civil' reply to someone's heartfelt belief?
Even the the Demonic Forces and its Leader Satan claim that there is a God that they came from God whom they betrayed and rebel.
Looking at your leaf that requires a god to move it:
The wind moves it.
Gravity moves it.
Birds move it
Insects move it
Rain moves it.
Liquids in the capillaries of the tree move it.
Even sunlight impinging on it provides a force to move it.
Nowhere in that list do we find a god moving it.
Do you actually understand what Newton said, or are you trying to twist his words into some kind of imagined spiritual "force"?
newton doesn't prove a spiritual force, his laws are proving it.
Who is controlling the movement of sun...
Gravity only exist on earth... my dear! sun is far away...
Gravity exists as a weak force (comparatively) throughout our universe. All physical bodies that have mass have gravity. Yes, even your thumbnail. The reason why gravitation holds things to the earth is that the earth has a much larger mass than we do, hence gravity works to hold us here.
That being said, the sun's gravity holds the planets in their orbits. The gravitation from the galaxy's massive black hole in the center causes our sun to stay in its position.
Basically, you are so in error, it's not even humorous. Please learn physics before trying to explain simple natural occurrences as being the work of your god.
Here's the link for those too lazy to look it up using Google: https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/yss/display.cfm?ThemeID=28
If you want the information how gravity holds the galaxies together: http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/featu … intro.html
You need to pick up a simple physic's book and read it.
Your atheist reasoning sucks. No wonder some people call April 1st "atheist day."
Our convictions are based on faith. We just believed what He says, and we believe He says it. No other proof required.
You require proof, yet most of what you believe and defend with passion is based on what you've been told, not because you were diligent and did your own peersonal research
Surprise surprise! Tjad has a twin!
Identical or fraternal?
Who said I was an atheist?
And you are sadly mistaken about my lack of research. I have researched more than you dream of. I have yet to see one iota of proof from you other than "faith." Faith is belief and if that is the case, then I believe in dragons and I know a dragon will come out of the clouds and poop on your house. Prove that it won't.
Mam! Let me clarify you that I have studied physics. Although my field of interest is medicine. If You say gravity is the force which holds our universe ac to "Gravity is the powerful force that glues our universe together"( quoted from your text). Don't you think it is keep on changing?. Another thing gravity is force ? Then where it has come from?? Who has produce it ? Force is always caused by the external agent... can you define that external agent causing this force to occur?
Uh, you don't even get my quotes right. I said:
"Gravity exists as a weak force (comparatively) throughout our universe. All physical bodies that have mass have gravity. Yes, even your thumbnail. The reason why gravitation holds things to the earth is that the earth has a much larger mass than we do, hence gravity works to hold us here.
That being said, the sun's gravity holds the planets in their orbits. The gravitation from the galaxy's massive black hole in the center causes our sun to stay in its position.
Basically, you are so in error, it's not even humorous. Please learn physics before trying to explain simple natural occurrences as being the work of your god."
And if you studied physics, then you must have used a text from before the 1900s.
Most physicists agree that there are four forces in the universe: strong interaction, electromagnetic force, weak force, and gravitational force. Gravitational force is weak but interacts at distances. Furthermore, it is attractive, not repulsive such as other forces can be.
Gravity exists where there is mass. In terms of space-time, it causes wells similar to placing something round and heavy on a thin sheet of rubber.
What causes it? You are entering the realm of particle physics. Mass may be caused by the field produced by Higgs Boson particles. So, that explains what produces the field.
One more thing ? If you explain existence of galaxy than prove me that How seed rips???? Is there gravity involves in it too?
How came sunrise and sunset in always the other directions??? Does gravity does it? Egg hatches???
gravity is involved in it too??? and above all birth of a human?
"The discovery and application of Newton's law of gravity accounts for the detailed information we have about the planets in our solar system, the mass of the Sun, the distance to stars, quasars and even the theory of dark matter. Although we have not traveled to all the planets nor to the Sun, we know their masses. These masses are obtained by applying the laws of gravity to the measured characteristics of the orbit. In space an object maintains its orbit because of the force of gravity acting upon it. Planets orbit stars, stars orbit Galactic Centers, galaxies orbit a center of mass in clusters, and clusters orbit in superclusters. The force of gravity exerted on one object by another is directly proportional to the product of those objects' masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them."
Rotation of the earth?
The tilt of the earth?
Water, air, earth, fire?
the hatching of an egg?
The birth of a human?
In a nutshell, its all God. Welcome back, Dr. Arsalan1989.
Dude, I can't believe you're asking these questions.
Sunrise and sunset occur because of the rotation of the earth.
Eggs hatch because they are incubated 21 days either in an incubator or under a broody hen.
Humans are made when a man and woman have sex. The egg is fertilized by the sperm. 9 months later a baby is born.
No god required.
where the hell the gravity is involved in it????
Come out of your fool's paradise and think about the environment. .
Hey Dude, I'm not the one who is fixated on gravity. You're the one who insisted on bringing that one up. I'm just the one who drives the Mack truck through your lame arguments.
Ok! did you have studied the stages of seed development??? I can quote them to you but just tell me one thing...How seed germinate???
Egg hatches in an incubator???? what??? What about different stages of chick development in an egg shell taking its energy from the protein part of the egg??? who makes a connection to it??? define me that???
No god required??? Really than define me that external force leading to chick development in an egg shell and development of a human in mother's uterus????
My God's existence could be proben through the things created. I geuss you just don't care or are too lazy to investigate. You have decided to believe many things without an objective proof, yet disregard God's revelation of Himself through His Son Jesuschrist
Who told you God's existence can be proven through the things seen? Have you investigated that? If so I'd like to see the result of your investigation.
No need for me to investigate it is as clear as... mirror.
Ah, so you have not educated yourself or investigating any of this. Surprise.
I suggest you start here.
You need Wikipedia to prove that God doesn't exist. I have proved his existence without WIKIPEDIA. So you read it and then prove me that doesn't exist.
What is your proof? You keep evading the question by saying that everything is proof. It's not. Try again.
No, that was just an explanation of how gravity works. I thought it was a good place to start.
"You have decided to believe many things without an objective proof, yet disregard God's revelation of Himself through His Son Jesuschrist". (bolding added)
I can only assume you met Jesus himself - can you tell me if the holes in his hands and feet are gone yet?
He does have the pierced hands and feet, but no, he ain't the same as portrayed by artists throughout the ages. If you're interested, you are going to have to investigate yourself.
You people consider yourselves owners of the absolute truth and despise anyone with an opposing view. You the inquisitive ones, who demand objectivity, have accepted a lot of speculation as truth only because is popular or a fad, but regarding the TRUTH, are totally blind to objectivity and absolutely unwilling to seek after it. There is a price to pay for seekers of truth, and even a higher price to follow it
I guess you're too lazy to learn how to spell and use good grammar.
Now, what objective proof? Please enlighten me.
Actually this lady is always prove others bad and herself righteous. May be this intelligence of her is influenced by gravity too... LIVE WITH GRAVITY.....
Maybe if you made sense, used a spell checker, and actually provided proof, I'd hold you in higher regards. At the moment, I'm wondering where did you get your degree. Obviously no place that taught logic.
Listen up lady. First of all, use a fool's barrier breaker in your mind, So all that fool's logic going in your mind allow you to think logically.
I ask you one question, you claim that every thing is influenced by gravity than give me an answer, Gravity is a force??? Right? Purely Logical???
Force is always caused by an external agent??? Purely logical again
Than define me that external agent?????
One more thing, You also said man and women have sex which leads to the birth of baby ultimately... Please one more question.. which external force leads to fertilization of ovum and sperm and after the formation of zygote.. which force leads towards more development and differentiation of cells??? You know in 2nd trimester majority of differentiation and organogensis occur??? which external force leads to it???
And another thing implantation of zygote into the uterus??? define me that external force????? EXTERNAL FORCE???????????
You seem unable (or unwilling) to comprehend the meaning of the word "external" as used in this discussion. Example:
Two bodies, A and B, in space with no significant other forces or bodies. Body A exerts a force called gravity on body B and B moves toward A. The force is external to B. Body B exerts a force called gravity on A and A moves toward B, with the force being external to A. The system does not take off across the galaxy; that would require a force external to the system of A+B; a force such as the massed gravity of all the other stars in the galaxy plus the black hole at the center.
You asked what force makes the wind blow; the energy from the sun, which is external to the system of the atmosphere. Volcanoes also do it, which is external to the atmosphere in spite of being part of the same gravity well. An ice sheet can provide some of the force, being external to the atmosphere. Even lightning causes air to move (the sound of thunder) with the lightning still being external to the atmosphere. A car passing by (external to the atmosphere) causes wind.
First of all gravity is a universal force acting equally on all objects i.e 9.8 m/s. If it is exerted individually then it will never be constant.. Your explanation is illogical
You really to study some physics before entering a discussion about it.
9.8m/s^2 is the acceleration from gravitional force exerted by the earth on objects at it's surface. It is as far from being "universal" as you can get, being true in just the tiniest of areas of the universe. And yes, that force is exerted individually on every particle on it's surface including each and every atom of your body.
The correct formula for gravity, from Newton, is F=G(m1Xm2/r^2). It becomes 9.8m/s^2 ONLY at the surface of the earth and ONLY when the acceleration due to gravity on m2 is required; that is why it is expressed in terms of acceleration and not force.
Not equally. You have ever heard of the Inverse Square Law?
And the acceleration due to gravity might be basically the same at most places on our planet, but would that acceleration not vary according to the gravity of a specific planet?
I am not asking about stars or moons... I am discussing embryology... you can ask me related to it... or answer me these question????
In that case... Can you exert gravity???? And if you say it is not constant than how will define that quantity or value????
"Please learn physics before trying to explain simple natural occurrences as being the work of your god."
Natural laws / occurrences and God both exist. God set natural laws/occurrences into place, so God is greater than the natural. A person who says natural occurrences are at work is right. But a person who says it is due to the work of God is also right, for God created it in the beginning, and THIS truth is the more valuable, more important truth to know. You chastise Dr Arsalan1989, but understand that no matter what other understanding he possesses or lacks in this world, he has the most valuable of all - wisdom and understanding that God exists and that God is the One behind the workings of the universe. God has entered into his rest from this initial work of setting all natural laws into motion, but we do well to understand that it is still ultimately the work of God and to give thanks to Him for his magnificent design and plan that allows the natural world to exist and function.
yes ! that's why. we can walk easily on earth. Walk on moon????
"Your weight on the moon is a function of the moon's gravity. First, we know that gravity is a force that attracts all physical objects towards each other (but why this happens is largely unknown!). Second, the greater the mass of an object, the stronger the force of gravity.
The moon is 1/4 the size of Earth, so the moon's gravity is much less than the earth's gravity, 83.3% (or 5/6) less to be exact. Finally, "weight" is a measure of the gravitational pull between two objects. So of course you would weigh much less on the moon. Imagine how far you could jump on the moon! The Apollo astronauts apparently had fun :-)"
I know it mam. That answer was given by me to end a meaning less discussion,
gravity is there always. But my question is,Who is causing the gravity??? Define that external agent???
Who is causing the external agent that causes gravity?
Dr. Arsalan, belief in a supernatural god and the religiosity that goes with is not confined to the unintelligent and surface-thinkers of this world (or of HubPages). As a member of a medical profession you are obviously not without intelligence.
However, it seems to me, by the way you have expressed some of your questions here, that all your questions and any expected answers must meet your presumption that a supreme being, "God" exists.
All your questions about physics and the universe have that presumption, so how can you become more informed or more enlightened if your mind is already made up?
I cannot tell you that you must not believe in that "God." It is your right and freedom to do so.
But equally I have the right and freedom to discount the existence of any god.
All I seek to do here is show people of a strongly religious mind that they do not have and cannot claim to have the monopoly on "truth."
All of the technological advances ever made in the practice of Dentistry have been as a result of careful scientific research. This was the fruit of human endeavour, not the hand of "God," because God by definition is infinite and beyond the influence of physical laws as we percieve them.
You should change your name from righteous atheist to righteous comedian.. That will help you a lot...
I know what I am doing and currently who is jackass...
Well, if you insist of creating a logical fallacy by pleading that only God needs no creation as he is outside our universe and space-time then I can do the same only simplify your fallacy by claiming that the singularity was outside space time and therefore needed no creator or cause. After all it's the only thing we are certain of that was outside space-time and was prior (if that's possible) the beginning of our universe.
No God required.
How can a person, with supposedly a professional qualification, stoop to such an unintelligent answer?
I have tried to give you respect when replying to your posts, even when they seem to show ignorance.
But now you call me a jackass! How rude!
First you need to provide evidence that an external agent is required. You have so far admitted that you haven't educated yourself in these matters therefore I suggest you start with the link I provided which will help you understand what you are talking about.
what? no external agent requires for force???? Than who causes force?? Don't say it that it is on its own... that is illogical.. because living things are triggers by external stimuli or force to change its state... The force is non living thing and as far as I know non living cannot move by own
Still not understanding gravity? I've done all I can. Time for you to educate yourself.
Or gravity is not a force than it will be some thing else????
you need a logic.. or education to learn how to think logically...
Perhaps I'm a little obtuse. I do not quite understand your perspective. Are you stating that all evidence of motion prove God's existence, or are you implying that the ultimate, or initial cause of all motion is proof of God's existence. For example, I throw a rock. Is the action of throwing the rock proof of God's existence? Or are you saying that the forces, their governing laws, me, the rock, the electromagnetic laws, and the complexities associated with this action are all created by God--the ultimate initial cause--and these are all proof of God's existence?
My impression was that he was making an unmoved mover argument. What do you think?
Yes, I agree. Initially there must be an unmoved mover; i.e. God, and I believe this is to what he is referring.
The only logical conclusion is an absolute necessity outside of contingent things. For me, reality suggests determinism of the contingent things, whether they are finite or eternal, which concludes to will or agency.
But then one must ask who moved the unmoved mover?
Rad Man, as far as God is concerned, I do not think that question makes sense. God inhabits eternity( Isaiah 57:13), and, therefore, transcends time. It is not possible to ask "who moved the unmoved mover?" because there is no beginning to God. Furthermore, time is a physical quality; it had to be created by God, through Christ. Since time and space are so prominent in our equations of physics, there would be no physics--no Newton's laws--until God created time, space( another physical quality)--spacetime as Einstein defined it--forces, energy, and the physics that give these things structure and order. I can not create anything from nothing; however, I'm able to take something and make it vanish into nothing as money in my wallet!
More logical fallacies. "Everything needs to be created" except for my God. The logic in that isn't working.
Am I correct in assuming that you believe nothing was created?
I do not believe someone created the universe. The concept is in it's self rather silly.
So you believe everything has always been here. Matter, space and time, forces, energy and information have existed from eternal past, and because of that will exist into the eternal future. Is that correct?
No, I never said any of that. The universe like everything else had a beginning and will have an ending in that it will no longer produce energy. What happened before the Big Bang is unknown, but we do know that all of this didn't come from nothing, it came from something not someone. Things don't need creation and you don't need to invent someone that can make the universe. And you certainly don't need to invent something that flies against what we understand about the universe in that everything has a beginning and an ending.
It seem egocentric to me to pretend a God made all of these galaxies and all of the star just for us. Then put us around a rather fast burning star that formed billions of years after he made the universe and then put us on the earth billions of years after the earth formed. Now I can see how that made sense to people before they had an understanding of the universe, when they thought the universe was small and that everything orbited the earth. But when we see the universe and it's billions of galaxies all there before people had telescopes that could see them it become apparent that we are nothing but another species that formed on this tiny planet on the outer arm of one of billions of galaxies.
Why? What's sillier about it than believing that everything just always was?
I don't believe everything just always was. There was a time when the earth wasn't here, there was a time when the universe wasn't here. But inventing someone with magical powers that may have created everything from nothing is certainly creative, but that doesn't make it factual. History is riddled with people taking advantage of our gullibility and I believe the bible is just another example, like the Quran and the Book of Mormon.
Something that is undetectable, untestable, impossible to understand, all knowing, lives beyond space and time, creates this massive universe just for us and all he wants is us to believe in him without direct knowledge?
Thank you Radman I appreciate your comment ,not that I agree with your answer but for the first time I understand you . And I appreciate your truthful opinion. Thank you sincerly !
Why did you include Quran in your above post? Please.
Did you study Quran from cover to cover? Please
The Quran (with all due respect) contains many key things that tell us its fiction. For example the earth is not shaped like an egg and sperm doesn't come from the back. So, I put the Quran right beside the Book of Mormon because it's clearly doesn't contain any information that the people of the time didn't have.
You are willing to acknowledge that the universe has a beginning; therefore, the things I mentioned( matter, space, time, forces, energy and information) would have to have a beginning also; otherwise the universe could not exist. The manifestation of these things is the universe.
I do not agree with your second paragraph. I believe you exist; i.e. you are detectable, and there is a whole lot less information available to me concerning your existence than the evidences God has inundated us with. I believe you exist and you are typing your responses on a keyboard. I do not believe your responses are the result of random processes occurring in the bowels of your computer. Even it you said they were, I could mathematically prove that is impossible.
On the contrary, understanding God is not only possible but easy. Simply read the Bible, and do what is says, and you will have all the understanding you can handle. I know you read the Bible because the evidence of this is at your hub concerning slavery and Scripture--you certainly did your homework. It is the last part of that second sentence, "do what is says" that gives one the understanding of God.
"Direct knowledge is tougher; however, any true Christian will give witness to having direct knowledge of God, but it requires a relationship with God.
Science already understands that things do pop in and out of existence at the sub-atomic level without cause so there is nothing to prevent us from understanding that the universe did the same. No need to invent a God to explain events like a solar eclipse anymore because we have an understanding of what actually happens.
However what we do know is that nothing can get things done without time because it takes time to get anything done.
A mind is the set of cognitive faculties that enables consciousness, perception, thinking, judgement, and memory—a characteristic of humans, but which also may apply to other life forms.
Yes it does, a mind is a mind when we have a collection of cognitive faculties as described earlier.
Why did you say that, is it because you were expecting a different answer? That answer can straight from an encyclopaedia.
Things popping in and out of existence at the sub-atomic level by implication would not explain the universe. Think about that.
Probably better than a god explains it, though. At the minimum those particles can be observed; something we've never done with a god.
No, it doesn't explain the universe, but it does make the universe possible without a creator without breaking the laws of the universe.
I realized after I wrote it that someone might think I was asking why you believe the earth was just always here. I know people don't actually think that. But that matter just always existed, whatever state it was in at any given time? How is that less silly?
And direct knowledge? I certainly believe I have direct knowledge, as do many others. And yes, the Bible does count.
Because the former not only defies logic but also make a claim and is contradictory hence meaningless.
Everything is, past is only an explanation.
Well, unfortunately Chris was banned for 3 months. It's such a shame considering he took so much time to answer each person who questioned his faith, in great detail. Some of us just walk away b/c it feels like we are fighting an uphill battle to sift thru what is actual discussion, from what is simply snide attacks on our faith, but Chris really stuck with it... trying to have an honest and real conversation with anyone who asked of him. I for one think it is not a victory for his adversaries, but a loss for the whole forum. We will miss you Chris, come back soon.
I agree. Chris is honest and that's refreshing, he will even tell us when he doesn't understand something, which is rare.
Will I be next?
He got banned?
I think probably it is because of a comment to me, if so it's silly. Whoever reported that should not be in the forum in the first place.
Soon the person who continues to rept other ppl will find himself all alone with no one to talk to. But maybe his point is not to enter into discussion, but to silence any viewpoint he does not agree with. If ppl like that are the only ones left on the forum, it will b/c a Hitleresque type of environment. The forum will not be a place of discussion, but a roost for those without a conscience.
I agree.... that is simply amazing Chris was banned. It shows/tells SO much more of what is actually going on so often in these forums, over what simply appears to be. That ban wasn't about keeping these forums a more safe place to safely posts one's views.
Every last one of us knows that.
I said that all things requires an external Force to change their state.That external force is governed by God. This prove God existence...
Considering your example that you throw a rock...
rock is in rest position... you pick it up (means you are the external agent which change the state of that rock from rest) but before picking it up, you were in a state of rest, You see a crow teasing a bird ( this is the external force which makes you see a crow) than naturally you interpret( another external force) than your position is changed and you react with it...
Do you believe that a god exists or do you know that a god exists? As a man of Letters, I am sure that you know the difference.
Your argument comes down to cause and effect and you place the un-provable existence of a god as the prime mover, the first cause, without cause. Now all you have to do, is to show how that is possible without conjecture or belief, as your only proof, that it is so.
The universe is estimated at 14 billion years old and containing about 200 billion galaxies, 10 to the 24 power for the number of stars and perhaps 10 to the 60 power of the number of planets. The universe is estimated at about 92 billion light years in diameter and expanding. That is 92 billion times 6 trillion. Now that is quite a god. And in all this, we exist. We are born, live and will die on an insignificant speck of rock hurtling though space at over a million miles per hour coming from no where and going to nowhere.
These are all assumptions. My dear! exact figures you cannot quote.Think If you cannot think exactly about the creations of God. How will you think about him??? That's why God...
Your rebuttal is that I am not thinking correctly or thinking by your definition of correctness. If this is your position you have no argument.
Your demand for exactness is overwhelming, especially when proof of your argument is predicated upon a belief.
Well that reply of cells was taken from a science question answered . We are not animals animals do not have the same mental structure or understanding as humans they work by instinque. We work by a different brain function. Surly that is why we have many zoo's if they were as intelligent as humans they would be In court fighting for their right to stay out of Zoo's lol!
I didn't say that were as intelligent (generally speaking) as us, I said we have the same cellular structure. We have the same organs. There are indeed however some animals that are smarted than some people. That's a fact. Now, your post showed that plants and animals have different cellular structures. You told me humans have different cellular structures from other animals, please go look that up.
Watch out, the chimps are out in force. Lock the Parliament Doors!
If you define god as that which produced all this then there is a god by definition. But it doesn't prove this god is a conscious entity. It could be a natural process. In fact it probably is the nature of energy itself.
No need for a conscious god let alone the christian version which makes little or no sense.
Yes for something to exist now something must have always existed in one form or other. But since you can't create or destroy energy it is the best candidate for that something, and its nature is exceptionally creative. And no, it was not created in the big bang if such an event happened, it was what expanded in that event.
So we have an alternative to a conscious god, and I for one am happy with that.
And you'll need to go beyond Newton to understand what I've said.
Also, while he was right that without stimulus nothing would move to do anything, it is not just external stimulus, but internal stimulus as well that drives all things.
It comes down to need. You won't scratch unless you itch. No need.
So what need would a god have to produce this? And how could that god be perfect if it has needs? It couldn't. A perfect god would mean we wouldn't exist. No need.
"It's just like him to show up talking reason and causing trouble."
I've been instructed by Mo to relay this message to you.
I've read your post and agree with Mo and it's something I tried to allude to the other day. Those who say that God is beyond space-time and there has always been and always will be should be reminded that the singularity was beyond space-time as well and if God needs no cause then the singularity needs no cause therefor we can cut out the God and be left with the same thing. Energy.
You need to understand what external forces are. You define everything as God, in part that is one definition. To explain everything you don't understand as being God is because of a lack of knowledge, lack of vision. Forces are not that which has arms and legs definitively. Forces are winds of change, winds of influence. A compost pile is full of forces to change solid in to rotted matter which is renewed as new soil. If you like to call that God by all means do so. But does it necessarily have to be called God? God defined as an entity with arms and legs is to satisfy the lowly human experience who yearns for something greater than himself to soothe his troubled mind. Are you manifesting the image of 'God' in a form to which you feel safe and secure within your lowly mind?
"A broadened mind is one that knows experience is knowledge, not what one has been told and then believes."
What external force created what you call god?
God, and His universe, have existed for an eternity.
Which gives rise to the concept that anything that can happen will happen in an infinite amount of time. It will, in fact, have happened an infinite number of times regardless where on the timeline you are looking.
We are but a single species, world and universe in an infinite string He has already constructed.
ok dear! than who moves the wind. who move the insects, Who moves the rain, who move the liquid in capillaries. You also know that sunlight moves at very high speed. Every thing needs an external force according to law....
Words of newton are self explanatory... no need for me to twist it....
I might have missed it, but where in newtons law does he attribute this external force to god and only god?
What force created God? Or did he create himself? Wouldn't that sort of be the same as a magical, all powerful leaf moving itself? Do you believe in magical leaves?
My dear! who created God? let me ask you another question? if you believe in God, God means not created (The thing which cannot be created). This question has no logic. If God is created by some other thing. Than that thing will be God and then again the same question who created that God and so on.... This thing has no end.....
Why God need to move from one place to another... He is not depend upon movements...He is independant
Moment a thing is dependent on any other thing. That is not God. Because he is independent.
If "God" has no need for movement, no need to move from place to place; if "He" is independent of us; then "God" is not of us! "God" is of the sky, away with the fairies! An abstract.
We Humans can and do sort out our own lives and our own problems. The only time we have need of a "God" is when our own efforts seem inadequate or impossible. Then "God" is designed to fill that need. If each moment of need is different, then each rendering of "God" will be different. Since the exact circumstances will change so will that "God" change. The fool spends so much time arguing the nature of his or her concocted "God" and misses the new changing circumstances.
What causes us all our fears, all our anxiety?
Desire for more.
Desire to hang on to what I have.
Desire to prevent change.
"My" needs over others.
I imagine DR ARSALAN1989 has a lot on his plate right now. He seems to be of the assumption that gravity only exist on the earth and from what I've gathered thought everything revolves around the earth. I know it's hard to believe, but I can only go by his words.
Weird that someone who is purportedly working as a dentist would be this uneducated.
Perhaps it would help if he took some classes on physics, or if he's into watching TV, watching shows on the Science Channel that deal with real science. Isaac Newton really only goes so far when it comes to physics. There have been plenty of geniuses after Newton who have contributed to how we now understand the universe works. Newtonian physics goes out the window when dealing with quantum physics. If you want to make your brain hurt, check out quantum physics.
If you want to believe in your god, that's fine. But have a good argument that is 1. Non-circular, and 2. follows basic logic, which isn't based on faulty or unproven assumptions.
I don't think it will make YOU dumber! But it might activate your heart a bit.
I have enough heart and compassion, thank you. But I think you need to think through your arguments if you're going to dice with me.
I just think you should cut Dr. Arsalan a little slack. He is advocating God in a pantheistic way. Is that all right with you? Maybe he is not exact in all the facts… but, you know what he means...
After all, Einstein wrote:
“I believe in Spinoza’s God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists…"
http://dailypantheisms.wordpress.com/20 … pantheist/
"Spinoza espoused a pantheistic system, seeing “God or nature” as a single infinite substance, with mind and matter being two incommensurable ways of conceiving the one reality." D
"A doctrine that identifies God with the universe, or regards the universe as a manifestation of God." D
"Pantheism is the belief that the universe (or nature as the totality of everything) is identical with divinity, or that everything composes an all-encompassing, immanent God." W
Anyway, Dr. Arsalan, The answer to your question is Yes,
( I agree, just look around you and feel inside you!)
Thank you for posting this valuable thread. Sorry there is only myself backing you up. Keep up the good work. More will join us, eventually. As you know, we are at the lower end of the higher ages.
Ignorance is Temporary.
Hah! You are taking the quote out of context. Einstein was actually an agnostic. Here is the Wikipedia quote:
"Albert Einstein named Spinoza as the philosopher who exerted the most influence on his world view (Weltanschauung). Spinoza equated God (infinite substance) with Nature, consistent with Einstein's belief in an impersonal deity. In 1929, Einstein was asked in a telegram by Rabbi Herbert S. Goldstein whether he believed in God. Einstein responded by telegram: "I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings." " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Spinoza
Agnostic information here (with references) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_ … t_Einstein
As for cutting Arselan some slack, maybe he needs to think through his arguments before posting. Otherwise, he's either looking for sycophants or is trolling.
I don't think its out of context in the least. Why do you think so?
“His [the scientist's] religious feeling takes the form of a rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection.” The World As I See It, by Einstein.
“The cosmic religious feeling is the strongest and noblest motive for scientific research. Only those who realize the immense efforts and, above all, the devotion without which pioneer work in theoretical science cannot be achieved are able to grasp the strength of the emotion out of which alone such work, remote as it is from the immediate realities of life, can issue. What a deep conviction of the rationality of the universe and what a yearning to understand. . . It is cosmic religious feeling that gives a man such strength.” The World as I See It
Nice. I can't hit reply to you for some reason. It is indeed out of context. First, Einstein believed in an impersonal deity, if there was one. That means that if there is a god, it doesn't care about any of us and we are inconsequential to it. In that case, it is indifferent to our pleas or our beliefs. It is not something you can hope to affect your plight. Given that Arselan appears to ascribe to the personal deity, it seems likely he isn't interested in pantheism per se.
HUh? "Arselan appears to ascribe to the personal deity,"
What has he said revealing this?
Repeating Dr Arsalan:
"Friends! In my above question which I have asked to the disbeliever that if you believe that there is no God then how these biggest mechanisms of the world constantly happening around us are going on?"
He is from Pakistan. I interpret it like this:
"In the question above, I asked the disbeliever how are the most influential mechanisms of the world, (which are constantly going on around us,) going on?"
What is the force behind gravity, the laws of physics, energy, air, wind, sunlight, rain, not to mention hydrogen churning into helium and black holes, etc!!!
His answer,(in a nutshell,) God Almighty.
Same thing Einstein said.
It appears with his "god bless you" and his comments about how god moves the insects, creates miracles, etc, that his god is not an impersonal deity. And quite frankly, if a god does exist in everything, it's called "physics" and it has no sentience, no feeling, and no remorse.
As for who created the universe? No one as far as I can tell, or any real scientists can tell. Or Odin. Or the membranes which collide in the multiverse, or a bunch of bored programmers running a simulation, or...or...or...
It doesn't matter. It is the thing we live in. And while it is interesting to think about, there is no proof for a pantheistic god.
You, yourself, are proof.
Energy and light are proof.
From the spirit world, light came into existence and started the physical world. The physical world seems solid, but as you well know, its not.
Everything which manifests has a blueprint in the spiritual realm first. The force of God brought/brings it into existence through evolution on the earth plane. Spirit, as life energy, occupies bodies.
You can't see life energy. It is invisible. But you are proof of your invisible life energy.
Kathryn, you and I are free to state how we perceive things, how we understand the universe and anything we experience. We can say that it's "As It Is," and "it's what I believe it to be." But we are not able to state it as an absolute fact to be ordained by everyone else as an absolute fact.
Because no one knows for sure. Therefore each other person in this Hub discussion is entitled to the same freedom of thought. And the freedom of expression for those thoughts. Would you agree?
When someone asks me for my viewpoint I can give it, right? We can disagree with each other all we want.
For instance, when you say,"... no one knows for sure." I disagree.
I believe there are sources of truth in this world. Jesus is one source. Saints of all religions reveal truth. Science reveals truth. What we see reveals truth. Our reason reveals truth. You may believe no one knows what is for certain in this world, but I don't.
See? Disagreeing is totally allowed.
"Disagreeing is totally allowed." Absolutely, thank you for confirming that.
However, I do question your logic. Against my statement "... no one knows for sure." you then say "I disagree." Fair enough so far.
But then you go off into belief. You, I, anyone, can believe anything we like, but it can never amount to proof until it has been scientifically tested, tried, repeated, returned the same results from the same evidence to the point all concerned can be convinced without a doubt.
You say yourself that "science reveals truth." Yes, it can. Science, not belief.
You may believe to the extent it convinces you that it's truth, but it is not proven without the scientific study. God, Jesus, religion, spirituality, all fall into this category.... they do not and they cannot stand up to scientific test.
Belief can be a valid and useful tool in the lives of many, yours included. But it ain't solid evidence.
- isn't proof in the eye of the beholder? and the third eye? lol!
Your first point, yes. Your second point? Back to belief....it can be seen as funny but I try only to laugh at the belief, not the person.
A does not equal B because of A. That is faulty logic.
I am not proof of a god nor are you. Try again.
"Then "God" is designed to fill that need."
…by who? us people?
Then who designed the universe and everything in it?
Yes, by us, people.
Who designed the universe? Maybe some humanoid - there are enough imperfections for it to have been a bit like us....
I doubt strongly anyone created the universe. And if someone did, it cares nothing for the lifeforms it put in place.
Its beyond the intellect. God loves us more than you could possibly know. All we have to do is be open to the possibility. We are drops of energy in the ocean of God's energy… I mean spirit. He is omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient. I call Him Mighty Triple O. If He didn't love us, He wouldn't have made us. He invented us (and everything) on the spiritual plane. That's where we can contact Him and we do so through the sixth sense of intuition. He is personal, He is impersonal. He in the microcosm and the macrocosm. Love is all there is…
The Way I See It
- just sharing.
Whoa. Now I thought you were supporting pantheism and an impersonal god. So far, I see a bunch of information that means you support the Xian god.
Fine. Then, you believe in the Bible? Your god isn't all love and kindness.
Spiritual plane? And where would that be?
Its called the astral plane.
Jesus referred to it as "His Fathers house."
God loves us. It is not pointless to know that.
Really? Then why is there children's cancer?
Why are there child rapists?
Why are there evil people?
If your god is so loving and omnipresent, none of this would happen.
Don't tell me sin and the Garden of Eden. What convoluted thinking. (Would you take two kids and put them in a room with sharp knives and tell them that they could play with anything but don't touch those knives? That would be child abuse anywhere but in the Bible.)
Because people do not bother to confer with God. If they would be open to the wisdom and counsel of God directly through meditation and prayer, they would sense his love and live according to his instructions and ways. Cancer is disease of the body. Dis-ease of the body is brought about by wrong dietary habits and other unnatural or damaging environmental causes.
You're such a pleasant person Kathryn You have the patience of a saint. The world could use more of your kindness and decency.
"The Way I See It
- just sharing."
Glad you added that.
You've created a logical fallacy. Special pleading, when you claim everything needs to have a creator exempt for just this one thing. Try another argument.
The force of God is behind everything. It is a given. Just work from there.
I love the way Dr. Arsalam writes. You can just hear the accent.
He is coming from an Eastern view point and we should give him respect. We in the West need to hear it.
(Just go with it! It won't kill you!)
You mean believe in a god that I don't believe in? And the "force of god" is NOT a given.
Being "from an Eastern view point" doesn't give him the right of respect. Unless you believe that giving those murderers and rapists in ISIS respect as well because they come "from an Eastern view point." Which I won't. No doubt Jack the Ripper had an accent. Should I give the man respect because he had an accent?
As for just "go with it. It won't kill you." No, it won't. But it will make me dumber.
Seems this was the same message during the Crusades...
"Go with it...We won't kill you..."
"The force of God is behind everything. It is a given. Just work from there.
I love the way Dr. Arsalam writes. You can just hear the accent.
He is coming from an Eastern view point and we should give him respect. We in the West need to hear it.
(Just go with it! (I was referring to the Eastern point of view) It won't kill you!)"
Why are you mentioning the Crusades, Double Scorpion???
It was more of a comparison than a mention. And I was referring to the wording not to an event.
Do you think going with the Eastern point of view (God is within and without,) will kill you?
Hmm...Who knows...But why risk it....Religion of all sorts kills...maybe not physically...but it kills...look around...Just about every religion in the world is focused on death and what happens after...
so concerned with what happens after death one fails to actually live...
I see you missed the point...No worries...
Well, U are missing the point if you ask me, which you didn't.
The answer is No, BTW
( No worries here, either.)
Dr. Arsalan, Welcome to HubPages and to the world of rhetoric and counter-rhetoric!
Please let me help you here: You asked the question "Who moves the wind?" The answer is: "No one!."
Anything, whether it be the Wind, or my finger, or an ant, or an electron, or an interplanetary rocket, moves because of...... a Difference.
In the case of Wind, it's because of a difference in pressure. For example, if the temperature of a gas is given more heat at one point, the gas becomes less dense than where less heat is applied. Less dense means there is a sort of vacant space available. Gas that is more dense will flow towards the area of lower density in order to equalize the density throughout. The flow of gas is the Wind. It is not necessary for a person or a supernatural being to exist in order for this function of physical law to apply. The same principles apply throughout our physical universe - the universe of which we are all aware simply because we are born of it.
If you wish to work on a hypothesis that an "outside force" in someway begat, and controls continuously the happenings of this world, then that is your right. It is also your right to give such a supposed force a name of your choosing. That name might be "God," "The Almighty," "Allah," "Divine Consciousness," ..... whatever you choose, and whatever suits the minds of people you move amongst, in order to convey mutual understanding. A hypothesis simply allows one to use it as long as it is needed for communicating an idea (or many ideas). It remains a hypothesis until some evidence proves the theory or disproves the theory.
In the discussion you have begun here, and which is likely to be going on for a surprisingly long time (!), you will never see a resolution of the hypothesis, only an extreme effort to debunk it.
Some will see the points I have made. Others will hang on for dear life to their previously drawn conclusions. It's a bit like "An Ay for an Ay and a Truth for a Truth.....and never the twain shall meet."
In My Humble Opinion....
If you can explain a force behind every force than who is causing that force?
Bingo, right here is the flaw in your logic. The question is not who, it's what.
The question is not who causes the wind and gravity, but what caused wind and gravity.
The question is not who caused that flower to grow there, but what caused the flower to grow there.
My dear! Who means "GOD". It is not the thing....think wisely. Don't bully yourself.
I know what you mean by who, but you not asking the right questions. You should be asked "what" created this things. When you ask who you've made an assumption which makes your question invalid as it excludes the things that may have created what you are looking for.
use your mind, dear. Saying "NO" doesn't mean that God almighty doesn't exist
And by calling yourself a "righteous atheist" doesn't mean that you are right....
Sorry sweetie - I thought you wanted an answer to this question. Saying YES does not mean your invisible, undetectable Super Being DOES exist.
Why ask the question if you don't want an answer? Odd how you religious zealots tend to do that a lot.
It is hard to argue with a generation that was educated by a purple dinosaur and/or a giant bird. They are totally convinced of the reality shown to them by Oliver Stone and Ted Turner and the likes. I wonder if they ever went into a lab. to confirm the teachings received through mass communication media
If you want to prove me wrong than have a discussion on it. What does "no"mean?
And I haven't said just"yes" I have given an explanation to it... you have a problem than ask????
"No" means no. God does not exist.
You have not given any explanation - you have made nonsensical claims about god making the wind happen. Please prove god exists. Until you do - I will stick with "no".
If I am wrong! than prove me wrong???? the things you are saying" nonsense claims" prove these claims as non sense....
Either there are no miracles or life is a miracle.
Newton's discoveries provide evidence of some of the miraculous aspects of life,
Even scientists rely on the concept of God when they can't explain things.
They know only God can answer certain questions.
Defining "miracle" as an event caused by a force outside of our universe, Newton's discoveries show no such thing. They all show that natural events originating from within nature are the cause.
As there has never been a "miracle" found, then there must be no miracles.
- its all a miracle down to the very first burst of light from the spiritual realm into the physical.
If Dr. Arsslam and I want to see it that way, what harm is it to you? We are not preaching dogma… just suggesting possibilities.
You are not anti-God… well, prove it!
"its all a miracle down to the very first burst of light from the spiritual realm into the physical"
Sorry - I don't see such a bald statement of fact as a suggestion of a possibility. If you want to do that, what about the pink unicorn snorting fire which was that first burst of light? Or Thor striking sparks with his hammer? Suggestions of possibilities can be (and often are) an amusing form of thought play, but until some evidence is found that there is truth there they can be nothing more.
I've never made the claim of being anti-god, and thus have no reason to even try and provide any proof. But if YOU want such proof, look back through the thousands of posts I've made: you will not find a single one (in context) suggesting such a thing. You WILL, however, find many instances of me saying that there may be a god, although I personally find the probability very low. Ignorance of the existence of a god, then, and not anti-god. Just anti making statements that there IS a god, spirit world, or anything else that has no evidence for it.
Its all evidence. Its all God. Its the Eastern way of viewing life which I have taken. One is free to take it or leave it. You have left it. That's fine by me. It just sorta proves you are anti-God. Okay.
Is this why you hate reality so much and hope it ends soon?
(I was joking… My mistake was thinking ten year olds would not see it that way. So, yes I agree it was my bad-ness.)
Not a question of badness - this is simply a natural result of being anti-reality.
To me the physical is evidence of the metaphysical...
Yes - because you are anti-reality. Why do you hate reality so much?
"Metaphysics is a traditional branch of philosophy concerned with explaining the fundamental nature of being and the world that encompasses it. edit
The origin of philosophy, beginning with the Pre-Socratics, was metaphysical in nature. For example, the philosopher Plotinus held that the reason in the world and in the rational human mind is only a reflection of a more universal and perfect reality beyond our limited human reason. He termed this ordering power in the universe "God."
http://www.pbs.org/faithandreason/gengl … -body.html
My question stands. No matter how many cut and pastes you do - you are clearly anti-reality. Why?
But philosophy does not deal with reality at all, but with "what if's", imaginary but unproven concepts and little else. How does any part of reality prove that any part of that is actually true?
It seems a little like saying that the sky is blue because I think an ET with blue paint and a really big paint brush works all night to get it ready for the next day. And that because it really is blue, that made up story is proven as truth. Or that I can't see the past because the Langoleers (sp?) ate it last night and because I can't see it, it proves the existence of the Langoleers.
The world doesn't work that way...made up causal relations might fit what we see, but it doesn't mean they are correct.
No, the magic unicorn touches his horn to the sky and presto… every morning… and at night he erases the blue sky the same way…
I need to go write that children's book…
thanks, wilderness for an interesting morning.
Also to avoid the wrath of RA. I take what I said back about you being "anti-God." Tell him to stop already. I know good and well that if God stood before you and said,
"Now, do you believe in me?"
Yes, and the metaphysical is evidence of… wait… it's only evidence that humans are susceptible to trickery.
Would you like me to read your future? I'm always bang on and a bargain at $55. Just load up my pay-pal account and it'll be on it's way.
I'll pay you 55 virtual dollars... here you go..
So what 's my fortune?
Because I leave imagination behind in favor of evidence when searching for truth means I am anti-god?
A novel way of putting it, but perhaps the closest to reality at the same time. You may be on to something here. As current definitions of any god come solely from imagination, perhaps I AM anti-god in that respect.
Miracle is also a force leading to some thing which is against the rules of nature.... Again proving the existence of God. God can go against his own rules of nature... Proving his power above all...
There have been no miracles. Therefore god does not exist. Well done - you proved god does not exist.
Yours is an absolute statement. I guess you went from one end of the universe to the other and found no God there. I guess you met Bolivar's famous white horse and foun God never rode it.
Since you've been there, done all of that, then you must be god, because you've been around all over
I also believe this and can provide examples of miracles in my life. But, I am interested in your "for instances," Dr. Arsalan and Cat333!
(as, of course, the atheists will also be interested.)
Hi Kathryn. I'm going to start by giving a couple of definitions of "miracle", since people often argue about what constitutes a miracle. Miracle: 1) a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency; 2) a highly improbable or extraordinary event, development, or accomplishment that brings very welcome consequences.
I've experienced many miracles falling into one or the other of these definitions, and have shared several here in the forums. Sorry, this will be lengthy (but is still only a portion).
1) In 2008 on New Years Eve while around 24 or 25 weeks pregnant with my first child, I was in a car accident that destroyed the vehicle. A vehicle had pulled out into our lane as if we were invisible, hit our vehicle, and then we ran into a large pole at a high speed. My husband pulled me out of the vehicle, as there were dangling wires and sparks all about, and ran me (pregnant and having just been in a severe accident) to a safe place, while people called an ambulance. Because of the trauma, I went into premature labor. In the hospital, watching the ball drop, I lay there singing praises to God and knowing he would protect me and my unborn baby. My baby was at the stage that if he'd been born he'd have about a 50/50 chance of survival, and if he survived, he'd likely have problems of some sort due to significant prematurity. Well, to look at the vehicle, you'd say the people inside were either dead or severely injured. But miraculously, we were fine (other than a little bruising). My labor stopped and I carried my son to full term. It was as if we'd never been in this serious accident.
2) In my twenties, while in the passengers seat of my sister's car, a truck pulled out beside us, and I saw it right there about to hit me on the passengers side, at which time I called to God "No, I don't want to die". And he moved the truck back, so that I saw it was no longer right beside me, but farther back, and my sister had just enough time to swerve into the other lane to avoid it hitting us.
3) When my husband was in a treatment center for a month and would not be getting a paycheck, and I was home with our infant daughter so had no income, and we had no money to pay the mortgage, God gave me assurance that he would take care of us, and so I trusted him rather than stressing about it. Just at the time of the missing paycheck (and when the mortgage was due), an unexpected check IN THE AMOUNT OF THE MISSING PAYCHECK ($1,480) came in the mail from a settlement form filled out about a year earlier that said to expect around $300. When the time of the next missing paycheck that month came, and I had no money for the other bills, a second unexpected check came (his work gave all hundred + employees a bonus, even though they don't give bonuses) and covered all the bills. God had given assurance that he would provide, and he did just that, even down to the detail of the missing / needed amount to make it clear that it was him.
4) When I experienced significant and ongoing sexual harassment by a leader at work who was involved in a variety of problematic behaviors (abuse of a male resident, sexual harassment of several female employees and females visiting the center, dishonesty and unethical practices in a variety of areas, cover-ups, etc.), as well as extreme retaliation by corrupt leaders for reporting the harassment, God promised me that I would be given victory and would not be put to shame. Yet it looked impossible: I had no money for a good lawyer and my position was not one of influence or power; I was battling two government agencies (one I technically worked for and one at which I was placed), both of which were big and powerful with the best lawyers; the man I was charging was in a powerful position and was well liked and backed by the other leaders; lawsuits, especially sexual harassment lawsuits, are very rarely successful, and even the successful ones are minimally successful, so that court costs are barely covered... Yet God was true to his promise and gave me the highly unlikely victory. I received a large settlement (MUCH higher than typical successes, and a good down payment on a house), maintained my right to speak on the situation (unheard of, as typically in settlements, they're "buying" your silence), the perpetrator was fired, and a couple of others who permitted the situation and/or acted corruptly had to retire early.
5) Miraculous healings - For example, upon a unique (for me) out-of-body experience in which the Lord manifested and said to me, "Focus on me, not the pain", he HEALED my body, so that the pain of 13 years was gone and has not returned for 15 years.
6) The miraculous appearance of the exact relevant and needful verse out of the more than 31,000 verses in the Bible. For example, when talking with a juvenile thief in detention and telling him he can't serve both God and money, I opened the Bible IMMEDIATELY to the verse saying "You can't serve both God and money", for which there would be a 2 out of 31,102 chance. Such occurrences happened on numerous occasions, making the divine intervention/ manifestation all the more evident.
7) The salvation of those prayed for who were far from God, but suddenly come to know Him following others' prayers and the experience of supernatural manifestations related to the person, WITHOUT any influence in the natural realm (not seeing the person or talking with them about God). For example, a man where I'd previously worked regularly spoke against God, said the bible was nothing but a bunch of made-up stories, and so on. After claiming his soul for Christ in full confidence that God would hear and act, I experienced a unique manifestation of a mass of angry demons three times the night following the claim/prayer. I have since discovered that the man began calling out to God in his depression and difficulties, and now praises the God he once cursed.
Thank you for sharing your miracles Cat.
God is simply, amazing. I am so thankful to him.
That is correct - there are no miracles or the word is meaningless.
This is wrong - clearly.
False. A total fabrication on your part.
LIVE HAPPILY IN YOUR FOOL's PARADISE.... God will bless you.
Interesting how religionists who think gravity exists only on earth get so angry when asked to prove their claims.
Did you probe there is gravity in other planets yourself? Or you were told?
Ahhhh, sure. Other planets have moons, which means they have gravity. The moon has gravity that's why people were able to walk on it. Oh and other stars have planets which means they have gravity as well.
Did you walk on those moons? Or somebody told you?
No, I saw them with my own eyes through a telescope.
We got told....by good honest scientific research....something that can be proven without a shadow of a doubt.
You don't "believe it?" Funny fellow!
"funny fellow" yourself, I don't think you have everything required to probe all the things you consider truth. But when we believe the TRUTH, which we cannot probe to the foolish, then you disregard and despise our beliefs.
Your finger needs to move just a little to the left and find the "v"
Just have faith - The Force will find it for you.
Why do you misunderstand the post like that?
Burden of proof is on you highly intelligent creatures. And NO, faith is not blind, it is based in knowledge, it comes by the hearing of the WORD.
And yes I have done my research, but you have to do your own. My findings will not suffice you
appreciate your grammar correction. it's a shame you are so wrong about your beliefs
What does that have to do with your claims?
Actually Newton was wrong with gravity. His math is still sometimes used because it's easier than what Einstein gave us, but he really didn't understand gravity.
First of all, be as brilliant as newton than object on it... this claim is to just make you fool
Nice one... I appreciate your comments.....
Some powers are exists ...i think those powers are god . But if u think god moves leaves , rain etc thats not true .... If i move one finger then 10987 km air moves ( approx) . Then u think how rain ,leaves moves ...... But i bleave in god
"... he's either looking for sycophants or is trolling."
I think he is revealing possibilities. You got something against that?
What possibilities? That his god exists? Prove to me that there is an omnipresent deity.
Sorry Maggie, despite your denial you are a proof of God's existence. In the first place your whole body carries His signature in every cell and atom. Not to mention you were created in His own likeness and image. Only thing though, you won't know Him unless He reveals Himself to you.
Circular argument, dude. WHERE is the proof? Mere existence? Nope. Try again.
The creation is not hard to understand at all . Example Man makes robots all the time. Does that make a creator of robots hard to believe of his existence ?
Reference Bible Ge 2:7 And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul.
(KT notice formed from dust , like made from clay) notice blown into nostrils after the body was made
Breath which oxygen to make the body function, many have been revived from CPR.
Also note what happens at death.
Reference Bible Ge 3:19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”
Many funerals use those words for centuries . And what is left in those grave sites your DNA of Dust.
That is not hard to understand.
Also scientist have broken down element of deceased bodies and they carry the same as dust or dirt .
We have much scientific proof .
As a scripture that is written
Reference Bible Ps 103:14 For he himself well knows the formation of us, Remembering that we are dust.
The fact that through our nostrils the breath and the life force he share with each and every soul.
When that life force leaves the body like a flame from a candle then it is up to him to return the flame.
Many flames will return in the resurrection hope. All those DNA will be returned in a better condition.
Do not let your hope be taken by throwing the key away to a future life. There is much to do ahead and much to prepare for you all have and invitation . Look into it more.
Even if that were the case (and you will know from my other posts that I don't agree with your statement), how could such a "god" have any interest in the details of an individual human life?
Presumably you are coming back into discussion having done so previously under another nickname. Care to declare your ID? Otherwise it's just going to be another boring, repetitive argument that will get us no where.
PS I wonder if there has ever been one convert to christianity resulting from a discussion on this site.
For sure, Child. But not really sure why I let you....
You see the logic right.
We exist, therefore God, the easter bunny and Santa exist.
Does God Exist?
Sure God does exist. Who has proven that He does not exist?
The burden of proof is on you. You are making the positive claim. You know this - right?
Your reason is faulty. I believe in G-d very naturally.
Your claims is also positive. Isn't it? Please provide evidence.
And Hindu's naturally believe in many Gods. And children naturally believe in Sanda, the easter bunny and the tooth fairy. And some adults naturally believe that big foot exists.
What's your point?
Please give your proof/evidence that G-d does not exist.
The proof is the same as the proof for non existence of Santa Claus.
Please give your proof/evidence that Big Foot does not exist.
You've made the claim that he exist therefore you have to back the claim up with evidence.
Can you supply evidence that the Hindu Monkey God doesn't exist?
No - my claim is negative. I do not believe your claim. Please prove your claim. At least you admit you just "believe" now and have no proof. That is a start. Which g-d is it you have chosen to believe in?
One cannot logically prove a negative (hence your belief in your Judeo-Christian god). Because somewhere, out there, there could be your god, BUT unlikely. Why? Because there is no logic and no consistency to anything in Christianity. Here are some wonderful examples (more than 60,000):
Anyone who use logic (provided they are honest), including you, can prove it.
Can you show us this thing that is causing gravity please.
Can it be caused by energy?
Plus you are making a massive logical fallacy. Special pleading. Your biggest claim for the existence of God is that everything needs a cause, but you then claim your God is the only thing without said cause.
Logically your argument is unsound.
You made a claim that "something" is causing gravity. Of course you need proof - otherwise people will reject your claim.
If it is your wish to convince others that your god is credible then surely you will need to provide proof.
Otherwise all of your argument is empty.
Of course, if all you require in life is acceptance of the existence of a god to your own satisfaction, that's ok. Who are we to deny you?
Oh, then why did you ask "Does God Exist?" Or were you just thinking you'd be using this as a bully pulpit?
More fallacy - you made the claim of a god, YOU prove it. Or prove that the invisible, undetectable pink unicorn under your bed doesn't exist.
Invisible, undetectable pink unicorns? I thought the question is about the existence of God. How smart can someone be to use the non-existence of mythologycal creatures argument, to deny the existence of God?
The point was that you can't prove that something does not exist. You make a claim that something exists and it's on YOU to provide evidence for that claim. If you can't, then you can't expect people to believe it just because you say it's true.
No, the topic is about a claim that a mythological creature exists if it can't be proven otherwise. The reasoning process, in other words, about how the conclusion was reached. The pink unicorn is just such a process, identical to the one you propose for a god's existence; if you can't prove it isn't there then it must BE there.
How smart can some one be who does not understand that gods are mythological creatures?
God IS a non-existent mythological creature!
Because ? .....show us how smart you can be, tjad.
No wonder your beliefs cause so many wars.
Thank you! I haven't laughed the hard for several days. I may not be able to count on you for good debate or intellectual conversation but a good belly-laugh, I'll take that.
My point. A person who thinks that derisive laughter equals a sense of humor also would tend to believe that vapid pronouncements equal actual intellectual statements. But two things I will admit I don't tire of are finding humorless people funny and having you make my points for me. Rock on and sputter away, dude!
But you are funny. That is why I laughed at the high opinion you have of yourself. Intellectual conversation forsooth.
Laugh... that's all you can do...
your mind hasn't ripped out of nutshell
Actually, yes I am funny, on purpose. But your high opinion of yourself and insistence on arguing with straw men means that what you're laughing at is the same thing that lords and ladies laugh at when they they think they are seeing people as they truly are. That would be their own selves. I am constantly amazed at how often you say things about me that, if anything, are far more true of you.
Unfortunately, that's how you've always been.
Please stop bearing false witness against me. Pretty sure you are not trying to be funny. That is what makes it so funny.
Actually, what makes you so funny is that you don't seem to understand when I am being funny and when I'm not. Which puts the lie to your "bearing false witness" accusation.
Or, to put it another way, it would only be false witness if it wasn't true, and so far you've only proved that it is.
But there is an invisible pink unicorn under your bed! I SAW IT!
Prove that I didn't see it.
Everything exist is a proof that god doesn't, now go figure.
Public forum. If you don't want someone to reply don't write it so anyone can see it.
To Maggie my reply was to RA I should have been more clear . I do not have a problem with replies I have a problem with people directly attracting me in a verbal way as him or her have done repeated times.
My point is not to attack ,make fun or offend no one ,but it seems that their are those who mock, and make it an offense to insult people. I do not play with the subject at hand . There is a time for everything there also is a time of truth and seriousness. I am sure if you are a professional in a certain field you had to be serious at some point .this subject is about life and how to keep living in the future. I do not find any thing funny about it.
Is anyone actually paying attention to what they are saying or is it just simply godunnit.
You were a child, you were born a man from a woman ,you are not fictional or mythical.
Yea, I got that. You got me all excited for nothing. Spider man has descriptions of people as well.
Yes but you are not in that book spider man can never die if the writer so wish, We as humans die everyday. We are not fiction.
We are not fiction but both of those books are fiction.
Do you believe that Spiderman exists in reality?
Is it belief that make existence?
Do you believe sun exists?
Why is it necessary for existence to disbelieve it?
I believe that sun exists? Don't you? Please
Suppose you stop believing in the existence of sun, will it cease to exist?
Existence has nothing to do with belief.
PS: sorry for the late reply, I saw yours only now.
People prove that everyday seeing is not enough evidence to believe in God. But what many do not know is that seeing does not have to be a physical connection. Seeing can be the understanding also of a presence. Example you are called to an emergency room
They will not let you in to see a loved one. Can you see who is all in that room with them. No!
But you believe there is doctors and nurses and staff helping even though you can not see what is happening.
There are people that can see more then the physical things they do believe and can see and understand spiritual things.
There is a scripture that says
Reference Bible 2Co 4:18 while we keep our eyes, not on the things seen, but on the things unseen. For the things seen are temporary, but the things unseen are everlasting.
Notice keep your eyes on the things unseen , meaning spiritual things. Can be seen ,which is what believe stands on.
Do you know the difference between "belief" and "exist" or the difference between "rational talk" and "common parlance" if so you could have avoided this harangue. Don't quote bible, its no different from quoting harry potter.
Harry potter has nothing to do with what I commented on ! But if that is what your mental thinking gets from it .then it is you that does not understand what is being said. Example I can believe that I will get paid but does that mean I will . I could put in the time and hours of a job, even though I have not seen a check ! I believe I will get paid. The check does not visibly exist yet but I believe I will get paid so I exercise my believe by coming to a Job and working even though I do not know if there is funds to pay my check.
The point is we can see the possibilities we believe the possibilities. And what happens ! I got paid !
Will your belief make the check real?
I will make it more simple, can you define "exist" and "belief"?
Don't quote any fiction (bible or whatever) so that I too will be spared of the necessity, if you got something to say, say that.
Yes I created the hours by my faith to make it real . I made my believe come alive . Because I created the check ! I believed the day I walk in that job and ask for employment that I can work and get paid.
I got hired and In reality I received the check.
I really can't talk with someone who doesn't understand English.
Do you know the meaning of "belief"?
Do you know what real/exist means?
ok, do you understand the questions?
Yes and you do not accept my answer , that is clear also. So do not re ask me .after I have answered your question.
So you don't even know what "define" means?
Define: To state the precise meaning of a word or sense of a word.
What you gave was an "example" where you mistook 'hope' for 'belief' .
So you are saying through the example I gave ,was that I hope to get paid ! No I said I made my belive a reality I exercised that believe in putting the hours in, the end reality was I got paid. Nobody wants to work a Job on a hope. They work it based on a strong and a positive believe that that Job will pay for services I gave to take care of themself and a family . What would that do if you went to a Job and they said I hope I can pay you ? Would that take care of you and your family. Would you work it any way? Believe many times is what is an action taken that produces the outcome.
That becomes a reality.
Before you were given the salary the company filed bankruptcy and was liquidated, will your belief get you the salary?
Now read carefully,
I DIDN'T ASK YOU FOR AN EXAMPLE, I ASKED YOU TO DEFINE "BELIEF" AND "EXIST".
Either you can or you can't, which is it?
If you can, give it.
If you can't, don't write more nonsense, I am not going to read it.
Employers don't say I "hope" or I "believe" but I "will" pay the salary and you "believe " them.
The book Spider-Man exist because some one created his character and put him on pages
We know the bible is Authentic because you are written in the pages as man, but you are a living witness of his work ,you are alive. Not on a cartoon page.
That example of Spider-Man does not fit.
Someone wrote books on Spiderman. I see Spiderman in the movies. Spiderman lives in Queens, New York, which is a real borough. I look around and I've seen spiders, so they must be proof of Spiderman's existence. My best friend has a friend who has seen Spiderman.
So, Spiderman does exist.
Now, if you tell me that my logic is faulty, then perhaps we can say your logic is faulty about your god.
Maggie everybody knows that spider man is fictional, even in the movies.
If you do not want to believe in God that is your choice ,but that is not a good example to use because we all know even you it is fiction that is why you are using it.
But that book has nothing to do with your existence which is explained as you ignore that fact of truth.
For a number of kids spiderman is real.
There are adults who think sherlock homes is real.
It is only for christians the gospel is non fiction, for the rest it's just fiction.
Kiss and Tales, everyone knows that god is fictional, even in the movies. If you do not want to believe in Spiderman, that is your choice, but that is not a good example to use because we all know, even you, that the Bible is fiction. That is why you are using it.
But the Bible has nothing to do with your existence which is explained as you ignore that fact of truth.
(Sorry, I had to correct your grammar. You realize that you said in your earlier quote that god is fiction, yes?)
Thanks Maggie you notice my error but you correct my grammar in my favor! if God was fiction no one would be having this conversation as we speak, he is the only one responsible through his son that gave us life. That is what it is. No one can explain to me any other explaination . Even you who gets around the explaination by saying he does not exist well then explain how we do!
How do you know Spiderman is fiction and the Bible is not fiction? I am not in the Bible either and the writers of the Bible are dead. God can never die if the writer so wished.
You got one thing right: Humans die every day and we are not fiction. Spiderman is about humans, and Spideman is a human, so he is not fiction.
Does It becomes relevant of your existence on how you came about and how you play a part in the future to keep existing into a beautiful paradise earth. There is nothing bad or mythical or impossible about that. People travel to beautiful vacation spots all the time. The only difference here is that the whole earth will be a thing of beauty without sickness and death. That is what we are offered ,but you do not have to accept it, it is not forced on anyone.
One should never accept a pig in a poke; we should always look a gift horse in the mouth. Meaning any gift needs careful checking to make sure it isn't a Trojan Horse or worse.
What evidence can you offer that the earth will be a paradise OR that it is something we should accept? It is not free, after all; how can we be sure it is worth the price?
I really agree with you here wilderness ,you are cautious with great concern. Well have anyone ever promised you anything? Or have you promised anybody anything ?if so what is a man's word to mean!
When he say ps he is going to do something ? What is it supposed to mean?
Well, when someone promises something, I look to see if I think he can deliver it. I look at his fulfillment of past promises (did he promise the moon and deliver a pound of sand?), and what he has done in general (don't buy a car from someone who has previously sold 5 lemons). We all check (or should!) before accepting any deal - why should this one be any different?
Good point. I've always found the "shepherd" reference to be a bit creepy. Sheep are set up to be sheared and to be slaughtered. Shepherd's pie is a favorite of mine.
So, if their god is a shepherd, he can sell them to other gods like chattel. He can butcher them and eat them. He can shear them and sell their wool. And they have no choice.
Comforting, isn't it? ;-)
*shrug* According to Christian theology we are to god less than dogs are to us. The difference is greater than even that, and the Christian god treats his "dogs" even worse than we do ours. So yes, set up to be sheared and slaughtered is probably a very apt description. Certainly their god knows how to slaughter - his servants glory in that ability.
That was what I thought, too.
Now, for the heck of it, there have been about 5000 different gods or religions (can't seem to remember at the moment, and too lazy to look it up). How do they know they're following the right god? Other than being brainwashed in church growing up or holding up the Bible and telling me it's their god's words.
The Buddhists have their holy writings. The Hindus have their holy writings. Various pagans have writings from their gods. So, what makes the Bible special (other than it's chock full of contradictions, misogyny, genocide, child rape, slavery, and other abuse)?
How do your children or family know you belong to them as a mother ,grandmother, sister, wife, and many more. It is not about the title it is about the person.
There are many gods .but there is only one true God that has been misrepresented people have confuse him and accused him of satan's works , the real treasure life eternal is offered to us all as it was Adam and Eve. They are dead forever we have a hope into the future.
If I told you I had a cure for your ailment that caused serious health issues would you want that cure?
Or would you doubt it so much ,that you would not allow the opportunity to be cured. Well believe it or not that is the case as we speak.
All the wrong things that could ever happen to us as humans are coming to an end.
Why do I speak to you and others alike. Because this life is not meant to last in this condition.
There is a cure for all our problems. People have hidden it away with misleading religious claims.
religion has not kept the truth clean and will be accountable for many lives they mislead .but at the same time the truth is as real as you still available ,And it will always stand. Only through that truth will people receive the cure for their needs.
My talking to every one here is of concern for many to be truly happy in the future days to come.
Consider some future truth posted.
When door to door salesmen used to come to the door promising all kinds of things for a price we had to put our sceptical hat on to not get ripped off. You are trying to sell something you can't produce, it's not very nice to take advantage of people like that.
I agree RM nobody wants to be a victim of hungry money practices.
Then why are you selling something that you have no idea (nor can you) if it will work. What if you sell the wrong version of God and God gets upset by that kind of thing. You'll have done me wrong and done yourself wrong.
First no body said anything about selling ,this has nothing to do with sales.
I was asking how important is a mans word when he makes a promise,? that all.
You are attempting to sell your religion and are making promises you can't keep about a paradise you don't know exists. So if you came to my door selling a two week vacation in Puba I'd have to do a little investigating before I signed on the dotted line. And if I asked you about Puba and you say you've never been there I'd begin to be sceptical, so I'd look for it on google earth and I'd be even more sceptical when I can't even find it there.
So, you are trying to sell us paradise, but you admit you've never been there and have no idea where it is, nor can you prove it exists.
Of course it has to do with selling! We can start with the tithes God requires, go on to relinquishing our ability to reason and giving up much of what we enjoy in life. We can continue with being a life-long slave to words written by ignorant barbarians thousands of years ago, along with refusing to learn anything new.
The price is high, indeed, for a promise that cannot be verified and from an acknowledged genocidal murderer that doesn't understand morality or truth.
Best to stay from the collection plates, then, and anyone asking us to fill them.
What is your word and seal, are you like the example you mention or are you a man of your word?
The point of asking what your words mean in value as to when you promise something is even more greater with God Almighty. As written this is a seal of his intentions for all that will accept it.
New World Translation 2Pe 3:13
13 But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.
45 Not a promise failed out of all the good promises that Jehovah had made to the house of Israel; all of them came true.
Reference Bible 1Ki 8:56
56 “Blessed be Jehovah, who has given a resting place to his people Israel according to all that he has promised. There has not failed one word of all his good promise that he has promised by means of Moses his servant.
Reference Bible Nu 23:19 God is not a man that he should tell lies, Neither a son of mankind that he should feel regret. Has he himself said it and will he not do it, And has he spoken and will he not carry it out?
A promise of a King is much more serious then any promise.
Job 22:28 What you decide on will be done, and light will ...
"You will also decree a thing, ... King James Bible Thou shalt also decree a thing, ... When you promise to do something, ...
Reference Bible Heb 6:18 in order that, through two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to the refuge may have strong encouragement to lay hold on the hope set before us.
You are using ancient texts, written for ancient peoples, edited an re-interpreted by the heirachy of Rome that you, an uneducated "believer," can throw at to the world as your "truth."
In this modern age, in a huge capitalistic plutocracy, there are many like you, peddling this nonsense door to door. Can you wonder that there is another religion in the world which seeks to preach another story? One that is just as dogmatic and erroneous?
No there is nothing ancient about people, man woman and child, nor death. We live this fact,
What is ancient about a future that was meant for us all the time just soon to be a reality.
What is a threat about that? There is none. Satan was the cause of Adams falling out and lost himself an opportunity to continue to live. Now we are handed the same opportunity . What is wrong with that.
If you are trying b be so technical it is not. It is really understanble.
It's understandable if you drink the Kool-aid. I'm just saying.
Indoctrination is best before the kid learns logic. Then he or she will still try to shoe horn the explanation so it fits the belief.
Kids, it was fun, but honestly, I'm not going to convince you at your folly, and you sure as heck am not convincing me. Have fun and enjoy yourselves. I have to make money and unless your god is going to slip ten million dollars under the door, I really have no other way to make money than to write my fingers off. So, if you're feeling charitable (and I haven't seen much of that Christian charity), drop by my hubs and read a bit. Promise, there's nothing about god in them unless you're dyslexic. ;-)
No we will not start with that because the true God does not use that to his benefit man does ,man has always put a price on anything even his mother or child ,cat or dog , that is not the way of the True God, that is another ploy of satan.
No we will not start with that because the true God does not use that to his benefit man does ,man has always put a price on anything even his mother or child ,cat or dog , that is not the way of the True God, that is another ploy of satan.
Dr Arsalan1989, you said, "If we consider this explanation as a universal truth it means that not a SINGLE LEAF ON EARTH WILL MOVE IN THE ABSENCE OF EXTERNAL FORCE."
You cite God as that "external force." But consider this:
There are plenty of forces external to the leaf, but internal to the physical universe. The leaf will move because of physical forces surrounding it. For instance, thermal potential between cold polar regions and warm equatorial regions creates wind.
God is external to all physical things -- not just the matter and energy, but also space and time.
But the leaf and all its surrounding physical reality (space-time, and energy-mass) were "moved" into existence by an external -- God.
The universe exists, therefore He IS, to borrow from Descartes.
The universe exists, therefore universe is, to be sensible. Argumentum ab auctoritate is wrong here on two counts.
Guess you didn't understand Descartes very well. Descartes is my favorite atheist from history.
The pull of gravity is a result of gravity itself. Nothing external needed. Gravity is described as a geometric property of space and time, or space-time. I urge you to attempt to understand it.
To Maggie it is how approach interpret or understand the book. Next the way you just clumped the the creation together is not understood in that order.
First it gives you a preview, then the next section tells you details . Like a movie , you have previews with out all the details then you go see the movie to get the whole picture. Also did you read the post about Miochondrial Eve notice details on the subject at Wikipedia . How scientist have discovered that we all are related to one female.
To Maggie it is how you approach and interpret or understand the book. Next the way you just clumped the the creation together is not understood in that order.
First it gives you a preview, then the next section tells you details . Like a movie , you have previews with out all the details then you go see the movie to get the whole picture. Also did you read the post about Miochondrial Eve notice details on the subject at Wikipedia . How scientist have discovered that we all are related to one female.
How far can you trace your family tree? This is a lot of research.
I agree with some reports on Wikipedia , but the information about the location of the garden was described here! The traditional location for the garden of Eden has long been suggested to have been a mountainous area some 225 km (140 mi) SW of Mount Ararat and a few kilometers S of Lake Van, in the eastern part of modern Turkey. That Eden may have been surrounded by some natural barrier, such as mountains, could be suggested by the fact that cherubs are stated to have been stationed only at the E of the garden, from which point Adam and Eve made their exit.—Ge 3:24.
Okay, well. You can go with that information or go with the vast amounts of facts that contradicts the bible's story that human existence started a few thousand years ago in modern day Turkey. To do that you'll have to toss out the genetic and fossil records, are you okay with that?
The difference here is that man has been known to get facts wrong because of imperfection .
But there is always a truth to be recognized rather people accept it or not , yes man had a part in writing the bible as secretaries , but know they are God's thoughts and morals and laws, the bible is a history log that gives dates and information of our human existence and how to keep existing.
There is no other book that can explain why we grow old and die when it seems we have perfect health. As an example you buy a brand new car, what comes with it instruction, the manual of how to get the best use out of your vehicle . Would you throw it away and say I do not believe in it because
That book is written by people I do not know, so they do not exist, I do not know who really made this car so no need for this manual or book.
We have a wonderful manual in the bible and it covers history,wisdom, dates, birth, death, health issues, food interest, also science of the earth, along with that it also tells the finally of things to come ,all rolled in that book
There is no other book that does that. It is Devine!
Are you kidding me? The bible condones slavery and killing disobedient children. It explains that the universe was made in days rather billions of years. We have concrete knowledge of how old the universe is which is in direct opposition to what the bible says.
You read a book not with the right understanding of its content. First the days written are not in human years! A day to God can be thousand or billions of years,
Next you mention slavery to what? The word is used but not in a negative understanding.
Your understand of this book is really based on wrong knowledge . That does not make your standing truthful. Compared to the real meaning of years ,and certain words.
Not really as a day is described as "And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day" which is a perfect description of what a day is.
You are kidding right? Slavery is also described perfectly as owning other people and Paul even goes so far as telling slaves to behave for their owners rather than telling the owner to set them free.
My understand of the bible is perfectly sound, thanks again. I understand what a day is and I understand that it's not moral or ethical to keep slaves. Do you?
I'd like to know how a day and night passed for 4 days before their god made the sun.
Also, it doesn't say anywhere in the Bible that a day equals anything but a day. You can't pick and choose what you want to believe versus what you'd gloss over.
And how in the heck is slavery anything but horrendous?
Kiss and Tales, if you are teaching this stuff to others, heaven help us!
Believe it for all it's worth for your own understanding.... but declare it as down-to-earth "truth," and you are living in cloud-cuckoo land.
Example Adam lived to be 930 years of age. Notice that God said to Adam in the day he eat he will surely die.
Reference Bible Ge 2:17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.”
Adams life span in our time was 930 years ,before a thousands years was up he died.
And that is possible our genes and cells repair and renew by seconds. So people were meant to live not die.
If you interpret that way that is what you get from it ,not what I get.
Yes that understanding in our time line explains it that way.
But as the scriptures says our thoughts are not his thoughts, Reference Bible Isa 55:9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than YOUR ways, and my thoughts than YOUR thoughts. Again Adam ate the fruit did he die that same day no because he lived. 930 years which was a longtime to birth other humans ,Cain and Able. So those days are not literal they are symbolic of his days .
A slave can have a bad meaning if you use it that way. But many times people work hard at many Jobs for pay. They slave for a living to make ends meet, that does not mean what slavery of abuse has done with people in the past.
It simply means to work hard at what you do in agreement ,not abuse.
Sometimes people would borrow and owe money and could never pay the debt so they would work their debt off by being hired hands. Simple.
There were Jobs similar in the bible accounts, there is no account of anyone being beat or mistreated . And to add they wanted to stay even after they paid their debt.
I here what you are saying but that is not what the bible betrays.
Umm, they didn't use "slavery" figuratively. You are using a book that has been translated into English from whatever languages it was translated from originally. Some of the translations go through different languages altogether.
Slavery meant slavery. There was no such thing as good slavery.
Interesting. What else did the bible lie about? Slavery is not slavery, days are not days, Jesus didn't tell you how to beat your slaves. And only you are capable of explaining the lies to us? Please tell us more oh great teacher.
Have you read the bible at all?
Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT
However, you may purchase male and female slaves from among the nations around you.You may also purchase the children of temporary residents who live among you, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property,passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat them as slaves, but you must never treat your fellow Israelites this way.
Exodus 21:7-11 NLT
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not satisfy her owner, he must allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. But if the slave’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave but as a daughter.
Exodus 21:20-21 NLT
If a man beats his male or female slave with a club and the slave dies as a result, the owner must be punished. But if the slave recovers within a day or two, then the owner shall not be punished, since the slave is his property.
Notice all the selling and beating?
From Adam and eves other children Remember Adam lived to be 930 years of age. They had children that had children.
Remember after the first murder, there was a law that a murder could run to refuge. And no one was allowed to take his life. This was the case with Able
Reference Bible Ge 4:15 At this Jehovah said to him: “For that reason anyone killing Cain must suffer vengeance seven times.” And so Jehovah set up a sign for Cain in order that no one finding him should strike him.
The point you seem to be missing or just purposely avoiding is that the children of Adam and their children had no one to mate with but each other.
In short, incest. Same with Noah and the flood.
Adam made love to his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, “With the help of the Lord I have brought forth[c] a man.” Later she gave birth to his brother Abel.
So Cain went out from the Lord’s presence and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden.
Cain made love to his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Enoch.
No mention of any births of girls for Cain to marry. Are girls not worthy of discussion?
K & T, you really believe that a man lived for 930 years?????? And that throughout that time he was able to have sex with women reproduce??????
Please Please come out of your world of make-believe and join with the real world.
There are plenty of organisms that live for hundreds of years and trees that can live for thousands. Why is it so hard to believe that man at one time also enjoyed such longevity?
If you believe that and give any time to thinking about it, you presumably have nothing better to do except dream. Why would you need to believe such nonsense?
A few trees around the world live to such an age.... very decrepid they become in later years too.
A few humans live to well beyond a century. If you think Adam was one man living to over 900, do you suppose that was common among men? Why are you interpreting ancient texts in such a literal manner?
Is it just to impress your peers in that church which you aspire to?
You academic studies might make you a scholar. So please let us hear some honest and enlightened understanding.
"“Fewer people [in the United States] die from infectious diseases or the complications of childbirth,” says Scientific American magazine. “Infant mortality is down by 75 percent since 1960.” But science has met with limited success in extending adult longevity. “Even after decades of research, aging largely remains a mystery,” says another edition of Scientific American. However, “evidence suggests that aging may occur when genetic programs for development go awry.” The article continues: “If aging is primarily a genetic process, conceivably it could one day be preventable.”"
This also showed that there were communities were there was sign posted.
It is a lot more likely that God does exist, than does not exist. The universe gives us clues, as well as humanity, and history, etc. With all that, comes the ability to deny any such thing, but not with good reasoning that I have ever seen, in an open and honest search.
Sure. However, it is less likely that a specific god, say the christian one, exists than a non specific creator does.
There is absolutely nothing that points to a specific god existing outside of all man made religions that assert one exists.
Well there is no book that says man made a man? Just birth had taken place after their making.
Interest even in science the body proves order , nothing just happens as out of order .Example if we were to throw a pile of spaghetti sticks on the floor should they be organized . No each time you throw them they would fall different without order. Mans body to every detail is in order ,even by tempeture .
Most Doctors can count on the exact action and systems that the body does.
That is just not mishap.
Odd - 99% of the species that have ever existed are now extinct. What a wasteful Invisible Super Being. Can't even create something properly without killing off 99% of them. I think if I was going to worship an Invisible Super Being, I would think one up that got it right first time.
Reference Bible Mt 24:22 In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.
This shows that God is about saving lives. Satan is the manslayer who talked Eve into eating the fruit and Adam followed .
The spirit angle as a manslayer from that point knowing that they would die if they went against their maker.
He wanted worship just by telling them a lie to do what was wrong.
His tactic is still the same do what you want ,do what God dislikes you will not die
The fact that we all are born genetically to die from our genes proves God word is reliable.
But as we can see a cure was made in our behalf .why let satan keep you from receiving it .
We live for a purpose and that purpose will continue rather people believe it or not
The paradise God set up from the beginning has not been scrapped. Yes for a moment delayed just to prove we need it. We will still have a clean beautiful earth ahead. And we will still have a paradise earth. And the injustice of death will end. Returned will be many loved ones of Family and friends
This is what life has to offer ahead of us .
This is fantastic nonsense. So far removed from reality I find it hard to believe a grown man/woman would swallow such stuff. The only reason I can image you would is that you are so scared of being dead you will believe anything. Or perhaps you have lost people and cannot accept that they are gone? I don't know.
I want no such part of this pathetic, needy god you describe.
There is no injustice in death. Death is a part of life.
I have never known The true God to force love on anyone .So you are free as anyone to make your choice. And the same reason why some one would believe it is the same reason you will not it is about choice.
To a certain extent it is a choice. Your story makes no sense and has absolutely no evidence to back it up, so I "choose," not to believe you. You choose to believe it for whatever reasons you do. Certainly not evidence or common sense.
Assuming that because man exists, god must as well , which in itself is a logical fallacy i think, where in our existence does it prove that your Specific god and your god only exists?
Because all things man create are in the likeness of what God has already made. The bible says God is love.
Are you capable of love . Who created the word or language.
Who gave all the animals their names did you?
Our history is explained and the meaning of what our situation of the challenge
Does the Heavenly Father have a right to rule his creations .satan challenge it with you will not die
That is truth because we all have experience the pain of it.
There is no reason not to understand it.
Except of course for the body parts that we still contain from our ancestors that have no function rendering them superfluous, for example the muscles we have to move our ears that don't work.
No clues at all - sorry - only your need to believe you are saved from death. The chances of your god existing are rather small. 13.8 billion years to wait for us to come along? Really? Think about that for a moment or two.
The problem is it's not open and honest because believers have to much to lose to look at the question honestly.
Genesis 5:3 Adam lived for 130 years and then became father to a son in his likeness, in his image, and he named him Seth. 4 After becoming father to Seth, Adam lived for 800 years. And he became father to sons and daughters. 5 So all the days of Adam’s life amounted to 930 years, and then he died.
You missed the last post you missed Seth! And after sons and Daughters were born
I think no one can really know if god exists, even they believe, they can not confirm.
The sanest response I have seen lately in regards to anything religious.
You must be an angel in disguise...
The Irrefutable Case For The Necessary Existence Of God: http://bit.ly/1197U6R
What are you so afraid of JC there is no threat but an offer of truth and information There is no money involved either, you accept it or not .why do you attack the subject so much. It is because it is the truth so you try to block others from hearing it. By being negative. Sorry that will not work, people have the right to decide if it is what they are looking for or want to here. I do not debate with you. I do not call you names . So do me the same courtesy.
Also my posted answer to people living 930 years as written is it impossible read what science and history says about human life and longevity. Wikipedia
Notice what science and History has revealed as proof!
A centenarian is a person who lives to or beyond the age of 100 years. Because average global life expectancies are less than 100, the term is invariably associated with longevity. A supercentenarian is a person who has lived to the age of 110 or more, something only achieved by about one in 1,000 centenarians. Even rarer is a person who has lived to age 115 – there are only 34 people in recorded history who have indisputably reached this age, of whom only Misao Okawa, Gertrude Weaver, Jeralean Talley, Susannah Mushatt Jones, and Bernice Madigan are still living. In 2012, the United Nations estimated that there were 316,600 living centenarians worldwide. As life expectancy is increasing across the world, the population of centenarians is expected to raise significantly in the future. According to ONS, one third of babies born in 2013 in the UK are expected to live to 100.
The oldest verified living person is 115-year-old Emiliano Mercado del Toro from Puerto Rico. He wasborn August 21, 1891.
102-year-old Samuel Downing, a veteran of the American Revolutionary War, in 1864.
Notice what a history and science has as proof!
Until 2013, the oldest individual tree in the world was Methuselah, a 4,845-year-old Great Basin bristlecone pine (Pinus longaeva) in the White Mountains of California.
The next oldest tree on the list is a national monument in Iran: The Zoroastrian Sarv (Sarv-e-Abarkooh), estimated to be about 4,000 years old, or older. This Mediterranean cypress tree (Cupressus sempervirens), which is in Abarkuh, Yazd, Iran, may well be the oldest living thing in Asia.
Reference Bible Ge 1:29 And God went on to say: “Here I have given to YOU all vegetation bearing seed which is on the surface of the whole earth and every tree on which there is the fruit of a tree bearing seed. To YOU let it serve as food.
Man was in charge of the plants and animals giving them names ,and cultivating the earth with plants . He was in charge of it all.
Ocean Quohog – 507 years old
Oldest Living Mammals on Earth – 211 years old
“Adwaita” the Aldabra Giant Tortoise – 256 years old
This is proof through science that it is possible for humans to live long . It was not meant for humans to die as animals because they were to care for everything.
Adam and Eve cut their life short and ours too.
But there has been a cure paid for us.
It is a cure not forced. Because it is a gift from God. Many will accept many will not.
Accepting accurate knowledge is a start to pass in the the New World.
So sorry to obstruct your reasoning, but "This is proof through science that it is possible for humans to live long . It was not meant for humans to die as animals because they were to care for everything." just does not cut it!
First, humans are animals.
Secondly, "...to live long" needs to be qualified. 115 years is not in any way similar to 930 years, so the argument is a bit far-fetched.
There is not a error in the statement but an error again in how you read and understand JC the statement "was not meant for humans to die as animals " is true animals die and are not able to return from death. Humans are considered more valuble then animals ( Reference Bible Mt 10:31 Therefore have no fear: YOU are worth more than many sparrows.)
So with that thought humans are suppose to outlive animals.
LOL. So it all comes down to how long we live. A turtle is more valuable than a dog...
No ! animals are not more valuable then you RM there is nothing funny about that.
What's funny is, you put value on life. I hate to break this to you but we are animals.
It seems I give you more credit then you do yourself . No we are not animals. An animals cells are not made like humans.
Oh dear me. You should spend a little time reading about biology before making a comment like that. We are in our most basic sense Multicellular organisms. For that reason human like all multicellular organisms (long living animals in particular) are susceptible to cancers.
Well here is the difference (Answered in LITERATURE & LANGUAGE
What is the difference between a palisade cell and a animal cell?
A palisade cell has chloroplasts for photosynthesis and a cell wall. Both these structures are absent in the animal cell.
We are not animals.
Palisade cells are plant cells found within the mesophyll in leaves of many plants. I'm not sure what they have to do with us?
Oh! Kiss & Tales, you are a tree! Now I understand.... thanks for clearing that up.