I'm just curious....Does anyone really know what the Bible really is? Do you read it daily, sometimes, or not at all? All are welcome to reply, but because of so many differant beliefs, I ask that everyone be respectful.....
i am just curious to know whether
besides bible have you ever read any other religion so far?
No...Not really....And why do you use the word religion? It's just a mere word, and has nothing to do with beliefs.....Peace!
Allow me to introduce you to the true word of the one true god then. As you discard the bible for the worthless religionist trash it is - you should seek out the FSM and ask him (or her) to touch you in a non-sexual way (unless that is your preference) to guide you to the real truth.
Trash? were you absent when the poster requested respect !
Where I come from respect has to be earned. Sorry.
Do you automatically respect everything I say - apparently not judging from your comments. You should respect my opinion that the bible and religionist spoutings are trash. No?
A one way street perhaps?
Mark where I come from that statement was arrogant
and dont say sorry -when youre not
I would consider it very immature to put down something you hold dear , just because I could, or thought a particular author was trash.
Now you know what you sound like.
And I am sorry. Truly, genuinely sorry that you need to earn respect - not demand it.
Really, really sorry.......................
I don't find that cartoon represents your reaction just to disrespect from people claiming this, that, or another faith. Rather than attempt to break the crosses of only those who have bashed you over the head with them, you do that to people who try not to do that.
Where I come from, respect for others is considered the default for basic politeness. It's disrespect that must be earned.
I could easily turn that cartoon around. An atheist chases random believers around, calling them "primitive, superstitious, irrational evolutionary throwbacks from the Dark Ages, responsible for atrocities in the name of some old fairy in the sky..."
When they get tired of the insults and leave, the atheist then cries, "But you're not answering my questions!"
Or a believer gets sorely provoked and smacks the atheist with a religious symbol of his or her choice, at which point the atheist demands respect.
And this is how you earn that disrespect. I have quite clearly explained to you why this cartoon is perfectly appropriate.
You prefer to argue with me that it was the atheists who started going around accusing people of poor behavior and that believing in god was foolish.
Wait a minute! That won't work because the term atheist would not exist if it hadn't been for the believers selling god and telling people they are fools for not believing.
I understand that this is not an acceptable viewpoint for you, but that doesn't really matter. This cartoon very accurately represents the way I feel, and many others do also.
Whether you choose to listen to me is up to you. You arguing with me that it is really my fault, and I started it without provocation is not really going to change my mind.
I have read the bible.
It clearly tells me in words I can understand and do not need to look into a deeper meaning of, or discern the intent behind, that I am a fool.
Every time some one tells me they believe in the bible and accept everything it says, they are calling me a fool.
Yet I am the one making an unprovoked attack?
Just not getting it are you?
And I thought you were not speaking to me because you thought I said something I did not?
Mark, there is one way to avoid earning disrespect. That's to not behave like a hypocrite. If you think deliberately insulting people for their beliefs or opinions is a bad thing, don't do it yourself.
Sorry - I am not interested in garnering any respect. Why should I? - your bible and preachers tell you I am a fool, so I have no respect from that quarter anyway. Plus - I have tried that approach - for years. I have found - painful to myself as it can often be - because of the personal attacks I get, that a more realistic approach that gets results is to ask the hard questions and give people a taste of their own medicine.
Just look at how upset you get when I tell you your beliefs are irrational. Yet you are quite happy think I am a fool for not believing. Which is what the bible tells you I am.
So - you only have 2 options.
You either believe everything in the bible and need to consider me a fool, in which case you can expect the favor returned.
Or - you do not believe everything in the bible. And need to ask yourself just exactly how you reconcile that. Because if it is wrong about one thing - then it is wrong about other things.
Now, most people seem to pick and choose the bits they like and then pretend the rest does not apply, which - for me - has been an excellent reason to question the validity of the whole thing. If the people pushing it do not actually believe it - what makes them think I will?
As for being a hypocrite - sorry - that does not apply to me. I make no bones about it and am not pretending to be something I am not. I think people telling me I am a fool is a bad thing, and will continue to tell them the truth about what I think of their beliefs.
Persuading me to behave the way you think I should behave and then continuing to do the things that started it in the first place is not going to work. That is how the christian religion has been spread for centuries. "Do as I say, not as I do."
If a good proportion of christians actually practiced what they preached - we would not be having this conversation.
Than you Mark for this post!! More real and true, impossible! I'm really fed up with this kind of people. Make all about christianity look like s..t, which is not !.I know a lot of incredible christian human beings! unluckily this person doesn't belong in that cathegory !
There is no word of respect in the world of atheists, they prefer to follow their monkey elders.
Yes, atheists are rude
I was talking about you. I know we'll never see eye to eye usman. You and I have already had a discussion that led no where. I just have to ask you to please learn and consider others before you use your words. Ask questions, be open. I know that is asking a lot. And I'm fairly certain you won't listen. But I had to ask.
Yes, we had a discussion in the past which lead to the following
Topic = Homosexuality:
Risk factor + Major cause for homosexuals. Do you have any idea what Major is ??? Major does not mean COMPLETE or 100%
By the way it's logical not to do a thing which leads you to take antibiotic
So now everyone who does not follow usmanali's beliefs is from a different species!
No, it's not like that. Anyone who supports theory of rubbish (evolution) is supposed to be from a different species.
Evolutionists, Atheists, Freemasons and all those who follow ISM based doctrines
WOW! They all or we all believe we come from the same origin. You however, are saying YOU come from a different species.
You don't want to be like the rest of us because you don't like what you are.
I and you are creations of God nothing else.
And anyone with many cupcakes!
Watch it Bub. I will do the Jihad of Allah on you monkey boy.
And middle-aged Russkies
Girls in bikinis, Zionists, and homosexuals need to be here too.
Amish, don't forget the Amish
Ordinary Jews are not to be blamed. Only those who are part of Freemasonry, Zionism and other societies like Bones and Skulls which ultimatly lead to Freemasonry.
I hear what you are trying to say. But I know from experience, that most people, are so very tired, hurt, upset. Because we have so much religion here in USA and everywhere, constantly trying to convince us of there way or no way, so people begin to rebel, against all said and known religion, and begin to form there own theory's. Its not a thing truly of disrespect, just tired and anger that's all.
It's more than that, usmanali hates all things that do not fit his particular brand of the quoran, which he cuts and pastes endlessly.
And so many people have been hurt severely by either mental abuse or physical abuse, that they grow up doing the same, not so much because they got it done to them, but because they have so much rage in them, and they have a need to release it, because they know no other way. Even though,deep within they know its wrong to hurt another, because they only hurt themselves in the end, because we are all made of the same substance, so when that substance hits another it comes right back to you because, of that substance. So this is another reason why people plug there ears to anyone trying to reach them with there truth.
I don't know you, and I don't want to know you....What you just said about the Bible....I wonder if you really know what you've done....
Excuse Me? I don't, and will never, discard the Bible....The Bible Is written By....God's Words, to the Scripter's ear....The Bible Is True....Don't put words in my mouth that doesn't fit....
Religion is just a mere word....Just like denomination....They have nothing to do with Christianity, nor any other belief.....
I know the real truth....So...since we don't agree, lets agree to disagree and leave it at that...
FSM is old and tired. The poster child for straw-man arguments.
Nice contribution to the discussion - again.
most of us holding tight to religion beliefs and missed to understand the message, understand the message and your beliefs, God is not beliefs, religion is, GOD is TRUTH not beliefs....Peace for you too
Yes, God is truth....God is not belief, and religion, is just a mere word....When someone asks me, what is your religion, I'll ask them, what do you mean? Then they generally ask, what is you Faith....Mine is the Christian Faith....I stand upon the Word of God....Peace!
God is not neither faith, God is truth, faith is not
even the word truth is not truth compare to god
Oh dear, better agree to disagree....Leave it at that....
Man I know that this has gotten alot of responses, so I'm probably not adding to it's dialog. However, I thought these two questions were real important questions especially geared towards "God loving" denominations like Judaism, Islamic and Christian religions.
I don't think a herd of elephants coming at me full speed, could convince me that out of any of these groups that 2/3's of their populaces have researched or read historical doctrines pertaining to the fundamental foundation to some other religion, let alone their own!
As a believer in God and Christ and Aliens, and...., I find that overwhelming irresponsible of "so called believers", and I find it incredibly sad.
Just my thought on the matter.
The Bible is a collection of 66 Books (the Protestant version, that is) all inspired by God.
I can tell you what the Bible DOES NOT say.
It DOES NOT say that one has to accept Jesus Christ to be born again.
It DOES NOT say that the Bible is for all men.
It DOES NOT say that the power to be sons of God is thru receiving Christ.
It DOES NOT say that the belief of or obedience to the gospel results in one's eternal salvation.
It DOES NOT say that church members of today are to give 10% of their income.
It DOES NOT say that wrong beliefs, unbelief, wrong theologies, wrong creeds, wrong doctrines RESULT in eternal damnation.
1) No it doesn't...It is for those who beliee in in it's intirety...
2)No it doesn't....The Power is of the Holy Spirit....
3) No it doesn't....And that's where many people err....There is only one way to Eternal Salvation....
4) No it doesn't....I give because I want to. I consider it a privilage to give.....
5) This is where you are wrong...It does say so...Read the Book of Revalation....
I generally have an online version of the Bible opened in another tab when I come into these Religion forums.
You know just in case our curly haired friend by the name of Mark Knowles wants to discuss the Word of God.
From all the forums I've been on, he's always been against...And he's worse here....I asked everyone to show respect, and all he's done is shown condemnation....
Has anyone explained to all of you what the bible really is yet?
Its all parabolic revelation instructing you how to discover God within you. It additionally imparts to man instructions on how to use the power of God within you to make your life on earth better. Read my hub on the Three Little Pigs and The Holy Bible for more details.
I'm very new to Hub and I read through this discussion with interest. I wanted to answer your question directly though;
I read sections of the Bible occasionally. Though I read it completely as a child now I use it mostly for reference.
I am convinced that the Bible is a collection of Hebrew Mythology followed by a middle-eastern legend. the mythology is useful for the valuable lessons and insights in the stories, the middle-eastern legend is of interest to amateur historians such as myself.
Bible is not the word of God at all.
If the Bible had anything to do with Cell Phones, I would have read it but ......
My second name is James, and I'm a Christian, so I thought about KJV of the Bible so I used that as my user name here in Hubpages.
The Bible is the progressive revelation of God Himself from the Old Testament to the New Testament, through Himself being The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, in relation with His creations, especially His people.
I read it often.
The Bible is just the words of God in printed form.
It's like a history book, values, songs, romances, and scifi all rolled in to one book.
Or talking about it being scifi it puts things into a different view.
If you lived during that time how would you explain things that are happing now to your best friend.
Ghost, man, there are some cool stories about ghosts.
Demons, shoot, they all there. Their names and what they do to your body.
Come to think about it the diciples thought Jesus was a ghost when he walked on the water.
Just read it for yourself and take your time if you want.
It is up to you.
Just remember to repent if it gets too scary.
Atheist Inside the House.
Hello my comment the bible in my opinion is like a guide for mankind I don't read it daily but I should I believe it gives you comfort and understanding to some questions that a person may have. I only read the king james version I don't believe that you should mix different readings because this is how you get confused. I am not an expert I would say also that you could ask a pastor in regards to other questions that you may have. I hope this helped
Amen to that....I've read numerous Bible's over the years....AMV, NIV, NKJV, TLV, EVMM....I always think of the KJV....The last two I had, my Son, has the one that I inherited from my Mom, and a very close friend, who needed it for her Church now owns the last one....Missed it so much, that I just bought another one....And for all you who own one, and the first word on it is The, like my last 2 had....This one has Holy Bible....
sooo, sticking with the subject of the thread...the Bible is a book of God, like every other holy book and books even about philosophies and other belief systems.
How a person perceives God is unique and individual...yet people can have unity in their diversity...hence religious groups and mystery schools, etc...
The Bible, like all the others, are human interpretations of perceptions of God. When a human's words about God are spoken and written in "the flame of truth", then another person can "sense" that "truth" and connect with it and learn to emulate and reiterate that "truth". But the "way is narrow", and easily misinterpreted, so teachings go astray, but can be recovered and continue to be reiterated...that is why some holy books,etc., affect some and not others...
it's kind of like recurring waves, that depending on other conditions around the waves, can change in height and strength and recurrence rate. And depending on where a person is standing on the beach or actually in the water, the waves affect each person differently.
I could give you an encyclopedic response, but I think that would miss the point.
I believe that the Bible is the Word of God, that it's a book written by men, but inspired by God. That it's assessment of the human condition is total, that it reveals the greatest love story ever written, that it states the problem and provides the solution, that it contains the greatest joy and the greatest terror, and that we are accountable for what it says and will one day be judged by it.
My personal experience has been that when I live my life by it, life is good and when I ignore it, life is not. I'm not always successful, but I try to read some of it every day and I have been doing that for many years. Its words ring true in my experience.
In short, I love the Bible and the God that gave it to us.
I am sorry, but i can not hide the truth, your Bibles have got some grave defects. Part of it, yes, may be a word of God. And i am sure you ignore the pornographic verses of Bibles and dont prefer to read them often.
I play it safe, I believe all of the Bibles were written by flawed individuals, ordinary men who loved to hear themselves talk. Just like you and I.
I agree with all of it except the part about "men who loved to hear themselves talk." You couldn't possibly make a judgment like that from having read it. Why don't you find a substantive critique. Nothing you have said undermines the Bible's divine authority.
Ya gotta be funny.... Mohammed himself ordered his adopted son to divorce his wife to satisfy his lust... and also married minor..... incest and pedophile gotta be ok... but alleged "pornagraphic" verses objectionable.... you're so funny
No, that's not the case. You are quoting out of context.
Let me tell you the meaning of context.
(a) You are going through brain surgery.
Now if i take the above statement (a) out of context and say that you are a mental patient by birth that's why you are having a brain surgery, it will be illogical. When you are having a brain surgery then there is a context, the context may be that you have struck your head against wall or the context may be that a decent person have punched your head repeatidly or the context may be that you are mentally sick by birth. NOW THAT'S THE IMPORTANCE OF CONTEXT. Unless i get the context of your brain surgery it's illogical to give my own meaning and say that you are a mental patient by birth.
What if I do ignore the pornographic sections (whatever that means)? That does nothing to undermine the veracity of the Bible. The Bible's claims are not made false by my negative reactions to it.
Neither are they made true by your positive reactions to it.
Although, the muslimist is best ignored...........
Dear, pornographic means nude, nakedness, obsenity. Do you really think these pornographic verses of Bibles are from God ???
Any claim not verifiable by experiments and experiences that can be replicated.... IMO fair game to be challenged.
He is probably referring to the Song of Solomon which has some very descriptive language in it that some of our lady classmates in the Bible college I went to blushed and some actually stepped out of the room from embarassment.
Take these verses for example:
Thy lips, O my spouse, drop as the honeycomb: honey and milk are under thy tongue; and the smell of thy garments is like the smell of Lebanon.
1 Behold, thou art fair, my love; behold, thou art fair; thou hast doves' eyes within thy locks: thy hair is as a flock of goats, that appear from mount Gilead. 2 Thy teeth are like a flock of sheep that are even shorn, which came up from the washing; whereof every one bear twins, and none is barren among them. 3 Thy lips are like a thread of scarlet, and thy speech is comely: thy temples are like a piece of a pomegranate within thy locks. 4 Thy neck is like the tower of David builded for an armoury, whereon there hang a thousand bucklers, all shields of mighty men. 5 Thy two breasts are like two young roes that are twins, which feed among the lilies. ..........Thy lips, O my spouse, drop as the honeycomb: honey and milk are under thy tongue; and the smell of thy garments is like the smell of Lebanon. (Song of Solomon 4:1-5,11).
1 How beautiful are thy feet with shoes, O prince's daughter! the joints of thy thighs are like jewels, the work of the hands of a cunning workman. 2 Thy navel is like a round goblet, which wanteth not liquor: F22 thy belly is like an heap of wheat set about with lilies. 3 Thy two breasts are like two young roes that are twins. 4 Thy neck is as a tower of ivory; thine eyes like the fishpools in Heshbon, by the gate of Bathrabbim: thy nose is as the tower of Lebanon which looketh toward Damascus. 5 Thine head upon thee is like Carmel, F23 and the hair of thine head like purple; the king is held in the galleries. 6 How fair and how pleasant art thou, O love, for delights! 7 This thy stature is like to a palm tree, and thy breasts to clusters of grapes. 8 I said, I will go up to the palm tree, I will take hold of the boughs thereof: now also thy breasts shall be as clusters of the vine, and the smell of thy nose like apples; 9 And the roof of thy mouth like the best wine for my beloved, that goeth down sweetly, causing the lips of those that are asleep to speak.
(Song of Solomon 7:1-9)
You call that pornography ?
Man, check out the stuff in the bookstores that pass themselves off as novels.
This is cool. The Douay-Rheims Bible compares the Song of Solomon to Christ speaking of His bride, you know how His church is often referred to as His bride.
The sub-title for Chapter 4 is "Christ sets forth the graces of his spouse: and declares his love for her."
The sub-title for Chapter 7 is "A further description of the graces of the church the spouse of Christ."
As a Christian, I am not opposed to any idea that I put forth as "fair game to be challenged." As for your claim that "any claim not verifiable by experiments and experience that can be replicated" is itself a claim that is not subject to verification by experiments and experience. It's simply a claim like any other. This village positivism was abandoned long ago.
I try to read it on a regular basis and/or participate in online forums/communities that make me use it as a resource. As a Christian I feel I should be well armed to answer any questions people might have about it from a Biblical perspective. Not to mention it is imperative for my spiritual health to consume the word of the Lord.
If you want to read the "word of the Lord", you would first want to be well-versed in where that "Word" came from in the first place. The New Testament is based upon the Old Testament, and the OT is what is considered the "word of God", (specifically the Pentateuch, the first 5 books). When you consider that the stories in the Torah (or Pentateuch) are mere generic copies of MUCH older and much more detailed tales told throughout Mesopotamia, and had to do, originally, with a full Pantheon of multiple Gods and Goddesses, then you will realized the fallacy of Judeo-Christian-Islamic "monotheism". Or at least you would realize that the stories in the Bible, whether they be based on actual events or not, were clearly not based on what the Bible says they were, but rather what the older, more precise texts said they were.
Almost every day I read bible. There are exceptions also.
I don't read it know more myself, I use to read religiously, but then I decided to walk away from it, the bible that it is, and just start asking myself questions, ya know throw out questions and then kinda wait to see what comes back. I like two books in bible Esther and songs of Solomon.
Todays bible is not completely that one that revealed on Jesus Christ
True, it's not in Hebrew, or Greek, but King James is as close as it gets....
Ah - you speak Hebrew and Greek also. Where did you study these languages you speak so fluently?
Maybe he will be a star in your next movie CJ...
That is to funny, he would defiantly be a huge "BOOM", in your face, lightening rod sort of guy.(by the way Mark that is a compliment) dee
Yep goodfriend and I will be the leading lady theres some fireworks right there BOOM! lol
LOL if the movie isn't a bang at the box office, eaglekiwi, will share a margarita with the little umbrellas of course, down on the beach laughing our _ss off.
No, I just know that when the Scrolls were first written they were written in Hebrew...And then in Greek...
So, how do you know that what you read in English has any resemblance of original scrolls? You have no way of checking it for yourself, right?
Sure I have a way, just like everyone else....King James though, is/was translated directly from the scrolls...The other Bibles like NIV, AMV, etc. Is translated, taking the thee's, thy's, and thou's out, making it easier to understand....Oh, and lets not forget the begat's....Peace!
In case your wondering though, most people who claim they know all about the Bible, have gotten their information from the computer....Anything I need to know, will be asked of, and answered by, God....
Look at the conflict in the following regarding King James Version.
"THE MOST ACCURATE AND CLOSE RENDERING OF THE ORIGINAL" — (The Times)
"YET THE KING JAMES VERSION HAS GRAVE DEFECTS." And, "THAT THESE DEFECTS ARE SO MANY AND SO SERIOUS AS TO CALL FOR REVISION . . ." Preface RSV 1971
Following is a photographic reproduction from the R.S.V. 1971
Your media claiming it to be the finest version but your own Bible says there are grave defects in it. WHAT'S THIS ???
Some would argue that King James purposely changed the Bible to fit his beliefs. Unless you know how to read Hebrew and Greek, you have no idea what translation is most accurate. It would be helpfull to have acess to the original Dead Sea Scrolls too.
you dont have 100% the same Injeel as was revealed on Jesus (peace be upon him). Also it contains numerous defects.
Ahhhh, there's the rub. The King James version is what is available to most Christians today. First, however, you must look back at the Council of Nicea that determined which writings should be included in a bible.
Then you must remember the instructions King James gave to his writers that basically said if they ran across a problem between their interpretation of the original language and the current Catholic Bible, they should follow the Catholic Bible.
I believe Jesus gave us the short version when He said, "Love one another."
Ahhhh, there's the rub. The King James version is what is available to most Christians today. First, however, you must look back at the Council of Nicea that determined which writings should be included in a bible.
Then you must remember the instructions King James gave to his writers that basically said if they ran across a problem between their interpretation of the original language and the current Catholic Bible, they should follow the Catholic Bible.
I believe Jesus gave us the short version when He said, "Love one another."
I read the Bible ,not every day ,it varies sometimes 5mins...sometimes an hour
Its a living book , it comes alive and inspires
What about the pornography mentioned in your Bibles ???
Reading Bible stories to children can also open up all sorts of opportunities to discuss the morality of sex. An unexpurgated Bible might get an X-rating from some censors, The PLAIN TRUTH October 1977
Translate the following please.
οὕτω γὰρ ἡγάπησεν ὁ Θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν αὐτοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται, ἀλλ᾿ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.
Hello Greek.How are you.Speak your mind.I love to read your post.
Do you think translation would help?
yes ignorance. Cause there is a lot of it going around. oh wait that isn't Greek. maybe you could look up the word ignorance and post the Greek meaning for all of us in English of course. Thank you. I liked your post. dee
Perhaps a sign of insecurity to not respect another because of their beliefs, interesting.
I find your manner , and personality arrogant, aggressive and derisive and thats way before I even know what you beleive in.
Someone once said to me , that Mark Knowles , he scares me , I wont go into the Religious forum because of him.
I tried to tell them , hes just a man , he cant hurt you , but you do because you bully and twist what people say ,all because youre angry at God??? or just angry ,I dunno
Get over it Mark and quit being such a smart arse
Very nice. Sorry I find your beliefs ridiculous and irrational.
Why are you so angry that I do not believe the same stuff you do?
Do you hate me for it?
Why is being against what you believe being a smart arse?
Is it the telling accuracy of my statements - or the inescapable logic?
"You are going to hell and I am saved."
Need I say more?
And the person who said that has now decided it is OK to talk to me after all. Ask Brenda yourself.
Hate ,no as a matter of fact Hell nooooooooooo...
( the only thing I hate are -Cockroaches-) seriously
Your statements are quite often inaccurate or you split hairs
( today is sunny , so eaglekiwi you dont like rain?)
and no you dont need to say more ,in fact less is better ,lol (sometimes)
Wasnt Brenda ,just two people that you casually blew off with your charm n insensitive remarks.
No doubt their fault for not having thicker skin , shame really, but you wont be pushing me around, saved or unsaved, so there
No - I get it. You are determined to spread the word and no matter how many times I tell you it is offensive and upsetting you will continue. I got it. Your beliefs NEED to be spread no matter what. Yes - thank you - I understand.
Well Mark...You do sound angry, all the time! Yeah your beliefs are differant then mine/ours, but, you need to show respect sir....I requested it from the beginning, and so far, I have not seen any shown in your remarks....As for the "Your are going to hell and I am saved." If I were to say that to you, and I won't, I would be standing in judgement and condemnation of you...Not nice to do at all...Because I would be Judged by God, twice over.....
The one true god.
Synchronized posts. I added a link though
Is that a sin?.............
Shhhhhhh.. we're forbidden to ask that since the infamous sheep buggering episode
God's M***** F*** D****** F**k S** Sh**mother **** G*d - I had forgotten about the sheep. Was it a sin or not - I can't remember. Seems to me sheep have free will so maybe not?
We were censored before reaching a conclusion. The question was, "Is it a (hub police defined expletive deleted) to wear a fake LV scarf while buggering sheep."
I guess we'll never know.
Well, there is sure-fire way to find out. I can get the fake LV scarf - if you can find a willing sheep, we can test it.
I imagine god will surely step in before things get out of hand. Or - one of us gets to bugger a willing sheep wearing the scarf.
Either way - proof.
Just borrow fierycj's
(scarf, not sheep)
No - the scarf is not an issue. Where I live they are a dime a dozen. The problem is the sheep. After years of abuse, the typical French or Italian sheep is very wary. Not to say - disinclined to be involved with a human male wearing a scarf. Especially a fake LV. (They know.)
The issue is a willing sheep.
This is where you come in.
You need to find the willing sheep. I can provide the scarf at minimal cost (about 4 euros)......
If it is as you claim, they why is the "g" underscored, and not capitalized as it should be?
Hallowed be thy name
I am not so sure "plastic, inflatable," sheep is the same as "willing."
Maybe one of the religionists could help us out here?........
ya all know what, I am totally lost. But that is sometimes not to hard for me. First of all, it saddens me to see, there are those that can dish it out, but when it comes back it gets to hot. Now I know this is touchy, but everyone of us is in titled to our own beliefs. And it's not nice, nor fair to push belief on someone else, and further more to tell anyone there damned for hell. Jesus, never pushed himself on anyone but he did get upset when religious leaders or teachers of the law tried to push stuff on his sheep. As for the bible, some is true, some is false. It even says in the bible. thanks
the false is, you wont damned for hell just because you are not christian .
I expected this to happen, hearing from those with differant belief....That's fine, as long as respect is shown, regardless of their belief....On the other hand, there is one on here, that makes a mokery of God's Holy Word, and it makes me wonder...Does he know anything about the Bible at all....As a matter of thought here, do you know what you've just done, In saying what you just did about the Bible? Peace!
As a matter of fact I do, and I will say it again, some of the bible is true and some is false....Let me ask you this ellie DO you know what you are talking about..you talk as if you know the bible inside and out. Then why don't you know this scripture
2 timothy 2:15 study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. and another one you may find interesting is this
luke 7:13 that we are to rebuke (correct) our our fellow brothern kindly and so on and so on now what do both of these scriptures mean for you and me, for starters 1. we are to divide what is true in the bible to what is false in the bible. 2. we are to correct our fellow brethern kindly and that is exactly what I am doing to you. Good day
1) I know the verse (2 Timothy 15). And, what are you getting at here? Is it because I refuse to condemn or judge another because his/her belief is differant than mine? If God wants me to be that way, He'll let me know...I've talked to Him before about this, and thus far, I'm still the same way, as I've always been....If I do wrong, trust me, He convicts me....
2) Luke 7:13....Sorry, but you just might have a wrong verse here...I'm not reading what you are saying.....I have my NIV open here and Luke 7:13 says, when the Lord saw her, his heart went out to her and he said,"Don't Cry." You've just proven what I've said all along, no one really knows the Bible in whole...
While I was in Luke, I came upon this....Luke 6:37: "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven.
Luke 6:41-42 "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
(42) How can you say to your brother, "Brother let me take the speck out of your eye." when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck in your brother's eye.
This is what I live by...Yes we are to rebuke our fellow brother's/sister's...But before you do, be sure you pray on it....You just may find, that you are about to rebuke your brother/sister for doing something, that you, yourself may have done.....
Do I accept any belief that are differant then mine? No I don't....But....I will show my respect to everybody...Including those whose beliefs are differant then mine....As long as God does not convict me of a sin here, I will keep doing what I've done for years......
I don't need to pray in the fashion, you are speaking of, for I speak to wisdom and wisdom speaks to me everyday...but it seems you totally skipped around the issue. You say the bible is "god breathed" and I say it is not, But the bible says, as I have stated before, which you choose to overlook, we are to divide the truth from false in the bible and people I might add. Furthermore sorry that i read the numbers backwards in Luke it should be Luke 17:3 and I am not judging you only trieing to correct you, But I do say you my dear are judging people you do not know. they do not believe what you believe so you are closed minded and trieng to convert. for I hear with my ears, why you posted it in the first place. You are trieing to snag people in to your faith and we could argue this point all day, but I won't. I have other things to do. good day
Okay, we have differant beliefs here...So let's agree to disagree, and leave it at that...
thank you ellie, i agree with yah. And after all that, I do believe that you posses a passion inside you, and i commend you for that.
As Christians, it is our responsibility to witness to others and to share God's Word with them. We are not condemning or judging in anyway. It is God's place to judge. It is our responsibility to witness.
Yeah, how wonderfully said!
Let's witness together the greatness of His Noodly Appendage!
Exactly!! And that's what I've lived by....Some people, like the majority here, see it as pushing our beliefs down their throats....You know, that's a good feeling...It tells us were getting through, but they just don't like it....God Bless!
Interesting attitude you have. "They don't like it, therefore this is good."
What a wonderful way of showing god's love. Annoy and offend people. Perhaps to the point of physical conflict.
Do you think it is for our own good?
I do find it interesting that you chose to ignore my response about what the KJ bible actually is. Care to do so now?
If you do not have believe in God, why you are messing with Him anyway on religion forums, The bible thread. Isn't that mean, you internally believe in Him and just shouting that ''I don't believe in God''
I am not messing with him - I am messing with his fan club.
he does not exist.
ok well, if He does not exist then why Jesus, Musa and the whole series of prophets came in the world and told people about God.
You can deny God but not His messengers
Or he may be a paid degrader of God
Or any other stupid acusation you can think of. Paid degrader of god eh? Your god degrades himself in your hate filled Quoran
Hey you RUBBISHIST (Follower of theory of rubbish(evolution)),
where did you get this 575 million. As i told you dont take the verses of Qur'an out of context. All the above verses you mentioned are related to the battle field. Allah is just acting as an Army General, He is just boosting the moral of Muslims to fight against tyrany and injustice and just dont fear these oppressors who made you to come in battle field for fighting them.
And for your kind information WWI and WWII were initiated by non-religious people especially Freemasons. Even before that the Italian and French revolutions were also boosted up by Freemasons. Also the Atomic Bombs were droped by Non Religious Freemasons who cry about Pagan doctrines of Nature and Mother Nature. These Atomic attacks have got no other equivalence for destruction in the history of mankind.
Yeh, it was a Freemason who stole your grey matter too!
You don't listen to advice at ALL do you?? That's cool. That's cool. Fail miserably again.
The Good in it, even though I respect all beliefs, and do not really push my beliefs down anyone's throat, but you, and others claim I have, and therefore are persecuting me, because of my belief in Christ Jesus, and the Holy Word of God...Yeah, that's where the good feeling is coming from.....
I see you avoided answering the question. You specifically said that because people don't like it, this is a good thing.
It is difficult to show respect to some one who resorts to semantics and will not answer a direct question.
Yet - you demand this respect.
hey monkey son! answer my one question
Please define respect?
Demand? No, I'd like to be treated, as I treat others...With respect, but that doesn't always happen...I won't demanded, but I will continue to treat you, and others with respect....
Showing respect would mean answering my reasonable questions rather than dodging around them.
Actually goodfriend 2 timothy 2:15 says we are to rightly handle or divide the word of truth. The Bible that I use says "rightly handling the word of truth" instead of "rightly dividing the word of truth." Anyway 2 timothy 2:15 says nothing about there being anything false in the Bible. This is the full verse from the Bible that I use, "Carefully study to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth." The verse in respect to the whole chapter means to study the word of truth carefully and don't be ashamed to share it, that's all.
Hi Mike, OK fine then what ever trips your boat. But maybe you better ponder on this verse a little while longer, for it says "rightly" what does rightly mean? Second "handling" what does handling mean? Third "the word of truth" what does the word of truth mean? When you find the answers get back to me. And don't give me what you have read, ponder with in your heart heavily first. Then, and only then will I enjoy talking with you. Dee
Mike I hope you will forgive me, for I was wrong for attacking you. there is no excuse. Dee
Of course Dee.
Thank you Mike!!!! for it seems, I was the one who needed to ponder and remember exactly what this verse means. Thank you truly from my heart.
I am very familiar with the bible thank you.
It is largely religionist trash, most certainly is not the word of god, and although there are some truths in it, it is not True with a capital T.
Realistically, the version you are claiming to be the word of god was translated some 400 years ago and written expressly for the British Crown. In fact, if I remember correctly, the Crown holds the copyright in perpetuity.
The instructions the King gave the translators were fairly explicit in the threats of death and dismemberment being handed out for not following his instructions. Oddly enough, using religion or "faith" to control the masses has long been a hallmark of your "god's word."
It doth certainly belong unto Kings, yea, it doth specially belong unto them, to have care of Religion, yea, it doth specially belong unto them, to have care of Religion, yea, to know it aright, yea, to profess it zealously, yea to promote it to the uttermost of their power. (taken from the instructions to the translators)
The KJ was translated from Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic.
Personally - I speak four languages reasonably well, and spend much of my time speaking with my friends in those 4 languages. It is almost impossible to translate certain phrases and words exactly - so I imagine what you have in your "God's word," is what whoever did the translating thought god meant to say.
Which makes it Man's word - or rather The King's instructions.
So - oddly enough, it tells you to accept your lot in this life and a better life awaits after death.
See where I am going here?
And - yes - I know what you think I have done and you are very, very wrong.
No more wondering....I still believe that The Bible was written (on the Scrolls) were written in a very special way....From God's Lips to the Scriptor's ears.....And, Would you care to tell me, what I think you've done?
I understand that is what you believe. Regardless of the fact that I and another have pointed out the fact that even if that is the case - you have no way of verifying that.
But go ahead and tell me what I have done. Please. In case I got it wrong by thinking I was sitting in the seat of the scornful.
I'm not a mind reader....So I have no clue what you're thinking that I am thinking....Thanks for the respect here....Now, do you have a Bible (dumb question I perceive you do). What is the first word on it?
that exactly what I was gonna say! lol
Maybe she meant, in the book of Genesis. In that case... IN.
You really are much alike girls. You might want to talk to each other, who knows, may be a friendship will be born
ha ha. thanks for looking out for us Misha. I was just thinking how pretty she looks in that blue dress...
I bet she looks even prettier without it. And I bet you too
See Misha - this is what was being said on the other thread - you are a slut.
Not necessarily a bad thing of course........
Aww... thanks, you are totally my friend! And you look pretty yourself.
Well, you still haven't told me what I have done - and I am not a mind reader either.
And as several others have stated, the first word in mine is "The" also.
Okay....Mine has it on the Binder...And The is not there....Sorry guys....I know that most Bibles do have the word The on them....I was looking for the word Holy....
I'm off for the weekend....So Have a good weekend....I'll be back to check out the forum from time to time, during the week, since I'm never on on weekends....I Thank everyone who has responded....And Mark? You really don't know what I was thinking as you say....So...I will no longer think it....Peace to you all....And again....Thank You...
have a good weekend!!
sorry about the 'the'
I have about 6 Bibles, and they all start with ...the..
my point is...there's lots of different versions, how's a person to know wich one is right?
and how can a person get all mad at soemone else, simply cuz they got beat down so much, they are pretty sure Gods not looking, or doesnt exist? I personally wish I could believe he didnt exist. Its alot better then being abanodoned
when you say abandoned, by God you mean or by someone else?
May I Pray For You? I'll check later for your answer....
oh gosh... didnt mean to open up a whole new thing here....let me try to explain briefly...
I grew up in a cult
dont ask here, email me if you want
I personally do believe in God, just not religion
I have very very close freinds who do not believe in God. I can see why. I am just saying, its unfair for a believer, without knowing any of the other persons circumstances, to attack someone who feels alone, lost, and Yes, abandodned by God. It is easier to believe you came from a monkey then to think that the one "thing" in the world who is supposed to love you, isnt looking anymore.
I asked, because I to felt abandon and I just want to say, that if I was where you are, I would hold you in my arms, like a mother holds her little one. And let you cry until you couldn't cry no more. And tell you as a father would that everything is going to be ok.
my mom and dad never did any such thing...
You are a really kind and considerate person.
still, my point is, people want to feel that God will do that. They are told that God WILL do that. "ask, and you shall recieve"
and they dont feel it.
thier baby dies, thier husband dies, thier parents beat them, they cry themselves to sleep every night and pray and pray till thier sick, they do everything right, every little step, every little ritual, and they still get raped, made fun of, robbed....and then some jerk (that never had anything real bad happen to them)on a high morale horse says..well..you didnt believe hard enough, or...your a sinner
it just sucks that "belivers" have to get so mean sometimes...
its all true, they do seem to ride high horse, but look at the bright side when they fall ouch it is going to hurt. The man of the universe is not mean.. he is gentle every so gentle, but he will not impose nor force his way upon you, for then he can't be love
Well, well, well.
Apparently it is not possible to come to a rational decision. You have to be "beat down so much," to be sure.
Deary me - Perhaps your invisible super being just does not exist?
Not possible? Therefore anyone who does not believe must have been "beaten down."
How very christian of you....................
Personally, I wish I could believe he did.
I was away, reading about sexy, and all this happend.
I have never pretened to be any such thing.I am a woman after all.. I have been beaten down, so...I get confused and am trying to make sense of the mess I was left with.
not for a second am I saying anything about anyone else's beliefs.
I suppose, I was refering more to someone who has lost their faith rather then someone who never belived in the first place. Hope that makes sense.
I also never claimed to be a Christian.
and I have no idea why you would wish you believed in God, but dont?
Easy - If I believed in god I could swallow the idea that it will be "better" after I die. Like all the other believers seem to do. Their lives are so meaningless without a "god" they have to believe in this - see my previous post about the KJ bible.
Where does "faith" come from? Certainly it is driven into you from childhood.
You will make snese of it - as we all do eventually.
Although - why do you think that you have to be "beaten down" to lose "faith" in a god?
Do you agree that it is possible to make a rational decision rather than be beaten down?
I believe you are closer to "him" then you think you are. for your own words speak of it.
How perceptive you are.
no just close myself, so i can see "him" in certain others
I intended to write this last night, but my computer crashed, adn by the time it turned on I had other things that needed to be done.
OK. I can see the point of wishing to have blind beleif, it does seem like it would be easier. I will look for your KJ bible post. I personally am not sure I want to trust some King accurately translated it.
I have no idea where genuine faith comes from. I certainly had my fare share of doctrines crammed down my throat in childhood.
I did not mean to say that all people who have no faith in God, or who have lost thier faith were beaten down. Of course it is possable to make a rational decision, especially if you didnt happen to be born into a highly religous familly. It is much harder to come to a point of reason and rationality, if your whole life youve been taught confusing and conflicting "truths". and if you try to question them, with logic and reasoning, your told your bad, and will be punished for eternity for not having faith. Now, as an adult, that must seem foolish, like...the boogey man. But as a child, its pretty scary. You know how some kids believe in Santa? cuz mommy and daddy said so...
So, my point is...some people believe in God, it gives them joy and hope, and I have no idea how they do it.
Some people believe in "something" but they cant define it, and they are pretty sure we were created, but most likely as some kind of a science fair project, and we are now forgotten, under some god kids bed, next to his dirty socks.
Some people are quite content knowing that we are here, and eventually we will be something else..like a puddle turns to a cloud? right?
some people believe in freemasons
I only wanted to say its not right for "believers" to be all high and mighty and saying...read the bible, or your going to hell...
oh, and are you saying I am pretty? oh my...
I don't read the bible. I use to, but when I finally walked away from all that, was i able to see clearer.
I agree that is is not right for believers to do this. But, this is a logical extension of believing there is a super being who tells you how you should live speaking into your head.
And oddly enough - everybody's super being just happens to believe exactly the same things they do
There is no faith other than blind faith. This is the very definition of faith. If you know - it becomes knowledge not faith.
I know we evolved. Not because I have faith - but because of the measurable evidence that we did. Many believers will not accept this evidence and assume that anyone who believe anything must be doing it out of faith.
how convenient!! I had not noticed this fact before, but your right!
Some of us anyway
mark are we finished with our discussion, because i was rather enjoying it myself.
Me too. I was waiting for you to explain what it was that you were looking for a rational explanation for....
How you came to the theroy of the universe was created by spontaneous or naturalism from nothing?
I never said any such thing. I do not recall saying it was created from nothing. You assumed that is the case after presenting no rational argument for a creator creating it from nothing.
As far as I am concerned, it has always been there.
I guess the only rational argument I have is, we create things ourselves. Were there was nothing, we thought and created something. Thats all I got.
OK what did we evolve from?
Where did whatever we evolved from come from?
where did it evolve from to allow that which evolved to evolve into us and so on and so on?
where is the evidence for this?
If I am understanding evolution, this means we evolved from animals or apes.
You said earlier that math is natural on page 7 of forum if this is the case then it is obvious that 1+1=2 Ape+ape=ape Human+human=human (although we have some awful human nature and some that is good human nature.)
I believe in evolution, and in a intelligent designer. I believe that we are evolving everyday, some humans getting worse well others getting better, at humanistic behavior, and also it is us that destroy nature, and ourselves therefor extinction is inevitable if we do nothing about it.
As for how could there be a God if 50% percent of pregnancy's fail page 14 of forum well that is do to human behavior evolving over time, it is the consequences of past history. As in if you eat ten bags of donuts a day, then over time you will pay the consequences of it, and more then likely so will your offspring, and so forth.
What do you think?
What does this have to do with a "creator."?
See this thread for a better understanding of evolution:
There is an implication here that we are not animals or apes. Do you not think you are an animal? Albeit self-aware.
Math is natural. Whether you or I like it or not. 2+2=4
Not sure you can apply the theorem you have just suggested as "math" though.
You cannot have both. The theory of evolution is a "natural" process based on adaptation to change. A sort of "suck it and see" approach that means if there was a "designer" this would not be needed. There is no room for a deity controlling the process - and in fact - if there was, the theory becomes invalid.
No - what I said was that this seems like a lousy design. A 50% failure rate is pretty poor design - don't you think?
First of all he, it whatever you want to call "him" it does not matter to me nor him, gave us free choice, free will, so as humans, we have the choice what we do to others and ourselves, "he" is sad because of our own choice to hate, kill, whatever it may be each of us might do, he intended nothing more then for us to be happy, here now, not somewhere in "heaven" or the cosmos. example we design everyday and when others trash our efforts because they have free will, but we created it so that they could enjoy it, we are saddened because we gave something to them out of our own substance, out of our compassion.
I looked at the page you linked me to. And I have to say yes we have evolved in the sense that we were all created animals and humans and all from the same substance but each of us was given a part in the home we call earth.
What do you think?
I think you have chosen not to answer any of my points and have resorted to knowing what "he" wants, and how "he" feels.
Hating and killing are part of what we are. So, I assume that your "intelligent designer" included those attributes on purpose.
Which is another pretty lousy design.
That is what I think.
I think if you create art for the sole purpose of others viewing it as "great!" is not a good reason for creating it. Art is subjective and is the expression of your personal, creative perspective. By putting on public display is to subject your perspective to the interpretations and perspectives of everyone else (the "public"). By creating artistic expression you are agreeing that one's own perspective is a subjective experience (an individual's point of view that is unique from past experiences of that individual) and since everyone will see your perspective differently, there will be those who don't agree with it.
So I'm inferring that you see God's creation as akin to art; so if a person's experience leads him/her to the conclusion God's creation is flawed, He is correct in being hurt since He created said person and they should like what He created because He created everyone?
No, but what would you have "him" do, or what would you have done if you were in his shoes? Make people do things, control them with a whip or by remote?
And as intelligent as you are, how could you think we evolved naturally from apes?
I can see One and then two and then a split in nature, but i can not see one and one and ape and ape and human. Does not add up.
I am not trying to p-ss you off. I am really enjoying this conversation, it has been a very long time since I have had an intelligent conversation. Know one that I know cares about anything but what car to buy tomorrow. which is fine by me. But I enjoy the stimulation of conversation. And I am at least trying to see, but everything so far that I have looked at doesn't add up. But that doesn't mean that I am closed minded that is why I keep asking you your thoughts.
And by the way as I said earlier I just use the word, him, her, it the big guy upstairs, whatever you would like to call it.
"He" does not exist.
But - if you can come up with some sort of rational argument that does not involve mis-understanding evolution, I am all ears.
Seriously - you can not possibly have had time to read all the information in that thread I linked to. Because you still do not understand how the great apes are related.
Further more, do you not see. that those you are trieing to convert to your way, they see what you are up to. You oh so nice introduction, that I am just curious... they see and they are not dumb Jesus talked about this also, be careful of those that come in sheep's clothing, but are really wolves ready to eat you (my wording) and stomp on you with there nonsense and I am holier then you garbage. They see you are trieng to bait them. So if anyone is to blame here for starting something it is you and you alone..good day
Excuse me? Trying to convert? I'm sorry, if you think that....Everyone on here knows my beliefs, or should by now....Your beliefs are differant then mine, and I respect you for that, but please, don't say I'm trying to convert you....I'm not...
I write, what is going through my mind, and of course God is in control there....You know...Maybe your right, maybe I am trying to convert everyone else....But if I am, then It is God Doing His Worderous Work through me...I am nothing without Him...Now...Can we just go back to the origional question that I asked?
Oh yes...Sometimes Curiosity is good for the Soul.
No. Haven't you ever heard the old saying "curiosity killed the cat"
As for praying for me that was a nice gesture. But I would be afraid, of what your god might bring down on me, no ill feelings or anything. dee
Ellie I am sorry, for there is never a reason to hurt someone else period. I hope you will forgive me. Dee
Ellie dear, you think, you write what is going on in your mind. But you are full of holes. And God is whole. Think on that one for awhile. Dee
lol, no just wanted to get back to this deep whole, and dig out some posts that I wanted to comment on.
OK maybe a little....lol
In response to your original question, I believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God and I read it daily. The more you read and seek to understand, the better you will understand. I personally use the NIV Life Application Bible. The footnotes apply what you have read to your life which is so important.
I love the bible read it every day
Mark does not believe
MISSED him when he was away as i have learned on hub pages
better the devil you know than the devil you don't
That's nice goodfriendiam. He's still looking and sees you dennisematt.
Hopefully some words of comfort for you Dennise.
Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are the meek: for they shall possess the land.
Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill.
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called children of God.
Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are you when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake:
Be glad and rejoice, for your reward is very great in heaven.
Come on Mark, give girl a break. She personally did not shove anything down your throat, and she will learn all what it is there to learn for her in a due time, no need to push it
I agree with what misha said, for i was once like her, she has passion inside that she knows not of and one day she will understand.
thanks Misha. I will learn whatever I have to learn, sometime I guess. Anyone can say anything they like to me. I am a bit thicker skinned then you might think. I am actually pretty surprised anything I had to say was worthy of a repsonse from Mark.
The only thing I believe is "to insist on the freedom to be oneself and to give and receive love." There is no book upon which I base my life. And I find the arguments revolving around the forums over and over again to be depressing.
Good Book - Soloman is one of my favorite people- He used everything availble to him to make himself happy, wise,thankful,and successfull-
"Where does "faith" come from? Certainly it is driven into you from childhood. " Mark Knowles
Mark, as you know, but more recent contributors may not, I disagree with you on this point. Psychological studies, most notably those in the field of logotherapy by Victor Frankl, have produced strong evidence that we are born with an emotional "need" to believe in a higher power. This of course falls well short of proof that such a power exists, but does suggest a reason as to why so many faiths exist. I believe that some are the product of genuine spiritual encounters, others shamelessly invented to consolidate control over masses of people. (I believe Christianity falls into this category)
This doesn't mean that as children we are blank slates filled with the beliefs of controlling adults as I think your post suggests, but rather that we are born with an innate succeptibility to conversion from rational thinkers to metaphysical "believers". Some have this trait exploited early on in life, leading down a false gnostic path. I choose to wait for the experience that will provide enlightenment, perhaps after my physical death, rather than be stuck with the false dichotomy that the revelation has happened or hasn't and never will.
Yes - I do know. But all these (including Mr Frankl) are missing the point. There is an arrogance that comes from self awaereness that says, "I exist. And I am aware I exist, therefore this world was made for me."
This will be our eventual downfall and Douglas Adams said it best with his puddle analogy:
"Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!' This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it's still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything's going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for."
The "Need" to believe in a higher power comes from fear that we are no more or less "worthy" than any other creature. Once you can get over this and accept that this is not the case, life becomes much simpler.
I am happy to be a grain of sand on the beach of life.
As far as I know Mark always accepts that there is a lot of unknown that seems to affect our lives. What he always rebels against however, is putting this unknown in a form of an old guy with white beard, that lives on a cloud and cooks sinners for eternal dinner. Or any other form for that matter.
Mark, sorry if I said anything wrong
No need to apologize - this pretty much sums it up.
Mark, I'll remind you of the faulty reasoning exhibited by Adams's puddle. He has confused his knowledge of his immediate surroundings for knowledge of the creator (and his intentions) of those surroundings. He also does not relize that his evaporation as a puddle is a necessary step toward becoming part of a cumulus cloud (heaven for puddles)
As for my own puddley thoughts, I have never precluded the possibilty of spiritual existence for creatures lacking in self awareness (even fierycj ) I think that what makes my current fluid existence and knowledge of my inevitable evaporation peaceful is knowing that infinite possibilities exist.
Exactly the point. And I am sure the heaven for humans in not much different from the puddle's. Being as we are largely made of water. Which brings me to another favorite saying that "Humans were created by water as another way of getting around."
There are indeed infinite possibilities. I am pretty sure my atoms will be scattered around goodness knows how many other places after I am gone. But - I would hesitate to jump to the conclusion that there is a divine being involved or even that there was a "spiritual existence," in there. Sentient or otherwise.
I read somewhere that the whole universe is made up of math.. that really got me thinking...but even so someone had to create the math...
Really? It couldn't just come about naturally? Nothing happens unless it is "created"?
Therefore there must be an invisible super being "creating" everything.
you are peculiar..thats a complement. But yes it seems so...for are you not creating right this very moment
No. I am not.
And even if I were, it is a big jump to say that because I am, everything else must be created.
I create, therefore everything else must have been created, because otherwise - it makes no sense and I am not as important as I thought I was.
No i am saying that as u speak you are creating, as you write u are creating and as you think u are creating. I see passion and fire in you...
Well, thank you - but why does that mean someone had to "create" the math?
Surely it comes with the territory? Math. Explanation of the way things work. ~~Natural. Organic.
No creator needed.
how can it not. if we are creators ourselves does it not go around and come back around and do it all over again
So - Because we are "creators" therefore there must be a "creator" for everything?
I see - we "create" therefore everything must have been "created" therefore there MUST be a "creator"
I love it. This must mean there MUST be a god. An invisible creator who made us. Because it is not possible that anything happens naturally and we did not evolve - we were "created"
How very simple.
Do you happen to know what this "creator" wants us to do? Should we worship him?
Please do tell me - I am keen to know just exactly what this creator wants from me.........................
yes i do, he wants us to be happy, with what ever we choose to do in this life, and to live out that which makes us happy to the fullest. thats it.....simple...now the hard part for some is figuring out what makes them happy. for it is sad, to live, but to never be alive.
when i refer to he, him, god, man, God, or otherwise, I am referring to the genius of intelligent design.
There is no such thing as "intelligent design."
It is made up pseudo-science to satisfy the religionists who cannot accept evolution so they have some "science" to teach their children. Sorry.
I mean - as an example - around 50% of all human pregnancies end in mis-carriage, or self termination or "god murdering the innocent baby" (depending on your political beliefs) - by any stretch of the imagination, this is a pretty lousy design.
Once you understand the evolutionary process, you will see that there is no "intelligence" behind it. It is merely trial and error.
Mark when you say "naturally" came about what do you mean?
Occurs in nature.
Happens organically, spontaneously.
Did not need a being with a personality to "make" it happen.
If you look at what happens in nature - there are more "failures" than "successes."
Which suggests no "design"
Which therefore means there is no "designer."
Unless you think a 50% failure rate for human pregnancies is "intelligent design," of course.
And the extinction of millions of species is "intelligent design."
Which means of course you have started from the premise, "There MUST be a god, therefore everything MUST have been designed by him"?
Or do you have a rational argument in favor of a designer that does not start with this assumption?
will be interesting to see the results of the Oxford - or is it Cambridge study on Nature v Nurture, where without any religious prompting there is a 'yearning' and wanting, perhaps awakening, to something divine. Is it a wanting to be loved beyond what we currently get (can't argue with wanting more than we are getting!), and is that a natural animal wanting or something else?
This is a natural result of becoming self-aware, and realizing that we are a small part of something much bigger than ourselves.
I am much more comfortable now that I understand just how important a part of that something I am.
I guess it is "human nature" to want to ascribe more importance to one's part in it than is actually the case.
Its humbling to understand the smallness of the ant in this case. I think I had a bad case of arrogance to think I was more than a grain in the sand. I used to fight that one, even against my 'teacher' until I saw sense! I had to understand it for myself. I like how you see it - "being a small part of something bigger." It's what I see, just use different words. It's interesting how I only use the G word either in this forum or when I'm cursing something. Otherwise it's not necessary.
Yes I agree with you about becoming self aware, and I know that I am a small part of something much bigger then our own minds can comprehend. But also, yes I love life, I love the fact that I am free to speak my mind about anything and ask the something bigger then I anything I want to, and sometimes I get an answer and sometimes I don't. And yes I want to be remembered by my children that I embraced all that life had to offer, that I loved great, that I left then with self confidence, and the ability to think for themselves.
Nature, mother nature, all these kind of stuff is from the Pagan doctrines of Freemasonry
How can you say nature is a doctrine of Freemasons, its universal like god and doesn't belong to any one religion or sect.God is also referred to as mother and the earth looks after us hence the name mother earth.
A common expression of the superstitious tenets of Masonry and its materialism is the notion of "Mother Nature." We encounter this expression in documentary films, books, magazines, comics, cartoons and even commercials; it is used to express the belief that the lifeless matter that composes nature (nitrogen, oxygen, hydrogen, carbon, etc.) has a conscious power, and that it has by itself created human beings and all living things. This myth is not based on observation or logical reasoning, but is intended to win people over by means of mass indoctrination. The purpose is for people to forget Allah (God), the real Creator, turning instead to paganism, in which "nature" is regarded as the creator.
In France, Provence is the place where the oral traditions of the Kabbalah were made into a book. So Kabbalah is now in the form of book consisting of false doctrines and practices of Egypt, primarily involving Humanism, Materialism, Mysticism, Satanism, Magic, Sorcery, Rituals, Secrets, Symbols, Signs, Codes, etc. It’s a kind of sacred religious book for Freemasons. They use to study, practice and preach the dark and secret knowledge of Kabbah. The basic false dogmas of Kabbalah include Humanism, Materialism and Evolution (ignoring the fact of creation) that is, at first, they totally negate the concept of One True God-Allah and follow the contrary which according to them is nature=the great architect of the universe=god=Antichrist (Dajjal).
For more details, you can visit
Or read this from the Quoran,,,,lovely!
Qur’an 8:7 “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels (non-Muslims) out to the last.’”
Qur’an 4:101 “The unbelievers (non-Muslims) are your inveterate foe.”
Qur’an 8:60 “Prepare against them (non-Muslims) whatever arms and cavalry you can muster that you may strike terror in the enemies of Allah (non-Muslims), and others besides them not known to you. Whatever you spend in Allah’s Cause will be repaid in full, and no wrong will be done to you.”
All good friendly stuff!
why are you misquoting the verses of Quran, how much you earn for this ??? The exact verses are as follows. Also dont take it out of context.
Qur'an Ch 4-WOMEN, V 101: When ye travel through the earth, there is no blame on you if ye shorten your prayers, for fear the Unbelievers May attack you: For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies.
102. When thou (O Messenger. art with them, and standest to lead them in prayer, Let one party of them stand up (in prayer) with thee, Taking their arms with them: When they finish their prostrations, let them Take their position in the rear. And let the other party come up which hath not yet prayed - and let them pray with thee, Taking all precaution, and bearing arms: the Unbelievers wish, if ye were negligent of your arms and your baggage, to assault you in a single rush. But there is no blame on you if ye put away your arms because of the inconvenience of rain or because ye are ill; but take (every) precaution for yourselves. For the Unbelievers Allah hath prepared a humiliating punishment.
The above verses are talking about the situation in battle field
Qur'an, Ch8-SPOILS OF WAR, V 7: Behold! Allah promised you one of the two (enemy) parties, that it should be yours: Ye wished that the one unarmed should be yours, but Allah willed to justify the Truth according to His words and to cut off the roots of the Unbelievers;-
Similarly you took verse number 60 out of context, read verse 61 as well
Qur'an, Ch 8-SPOILS OF WAR, V 60: Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.
61. But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah. for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).
I have praised Allah in my book so why do you give me attitude? Isn't this against the teaching of the Quran?
Please don't give me this warped philosophy that mother earth or nature is not god.Its after a a revelation of god or enlightenment that one knows this entire universe is fully alive and is made of the essence of god.
Nature is a part of god, this earth has been made by god and this is the reason sages give respect to this planet and call her mother.
First when you say design everything, are you saying all things natural or all things, as in nature, pain, war and so on?
Even if we came from natural spontaneous, which I can see that, there can't be nothing from nothing 0+0 but on the other hand there had to be something behind the nothing, to create the spontaneous, the natural. 1+0=1 How if you are sitting at a desk with paper and pencil, could you ever create something just by staring at the nothing. It is only when you pick up the tool and begin does the nothing become something.
So you don't have a rational argument then?
"there had to be something behind the nothing, to create the spontaneous, the natural."
What you really mean is "there is no such thing as spontaneous or natural."
No i believe in spontaneous, only the fact that when something pops in to my empty mind, then I fly or jump spontaneously to it. what ever that activity may be, or imagination that I go to in my mind.
Welcome back Mark. Hope you enjoyed your holiday.
Thank you - and yes indeed I had a great time. Although I think a need a vacation to recover from my vacation.
there is nothing to understand about evolution. Darwin himself was evident about his theory of evolution to be RUBBISH.
Mark what do you mean happens "naturally"?
Yes. . . .Yes You got it!!!
Aaahhh, No, it's you Mark, you just won't accept it. For just a moment I thought. . .
Yeah, but you believe in talking snakes so........
I perceive this as ridicule. Am I right?
Perhaps you can explain to me why there are a (growing number of) "scientists" (probably evolutionary scientists) that are working overtime trying to establish some form of communication with animals. I'm sure you have heard of some of them. They study chimps, gorillas, killer whales, dolphins, to name a few.
Just a gentle jest dj.
And we even have one of those radicals here on hubpages:
I have no idea as to these people's motivation I'm afraid. Does it bother you that they are trying to learn something new and communicate with other animals apart from ourselves?
Not at all. In fact I'm as curious as they. I'd love to know what they "think" of us etc.
If they have any sense, a pretty low opinion I would think. I know I do - as a species rather than individuals.
Which reminds me of a zoo I visited once. I don't remember where, but they had an exhibit entitled "The most dangerous animal on earth," in one of the big cat houses. After visiting the Lions, Tigers etc - you went into the room and found a big mirror.
But humans made up math to express in certain terms things that are not otherwise expressible.
That's why they call it the Universal Language. Doesn't mean it is right, it just means it works.
I have never heard that. Neat I learn something new everyday. Thanks
Frankly I don't see any logic either. May be you guys need to agree on definition of "create" first?
can you explain, create? I'm not sure because it seems to encompass so much. I will have to think on that one.
It's not my conversation, it's you and Mark. I am watching it, and sometimes trying to help, but this is not the topic I am currently interested in seriously discussing
thanks misha, for looking out, but i enjoy having a friendly debate and sometimes intelligent conversation. i am enjoying my time with Mark. I usually talk to my 16 mth old....lol. which is good...lol
Have any of you looked in to the theory of dirty DNA? It is another entry to human knowledge that is being considered by some well recognized scientific minds.
On the matter of religiosity, Carl Jung spoke about humans having a need for religion built in. I think it is fear based as most things seem to be!
Oh, I am definitely not looking out for you. I am enjoying your conversation and collecting some information for myself. The first time I interfered I thought Mark already was done for the day, cause he is in France, so I dared to clarify his position so you don't need to wait till tomorrow. Second time I thought you guys got somewhat stuck, and offered a way out, as I saw it
i am sorry that i miss took, what you said. For you are a good man thanks for your honesty
Thanks for the giggles Usmanali, sometimes it's even nice to have you here
i have a reason for my comment. I dont put mere allegations like atheists.
Do you practice "self indulgence" while posting?
Usman, do you think you have anything to learn? Or do you think you know everything you need to know? I'm being serious.
I am very flexible and my learning will not stop.
Ok, do you believe your religion is the only one that is correct?
Do you know everything there is to know about all of the religions?
may be, almost all
So if you don't know everything about religion or about everything in life. Isn't is possible, that maybe, just maybe, your religion isn't the only one that is correct, or even that your religion isn't 100%? Or even, just think about this one, you're not always correct? And you could learn from others?
hmm ... you see when there arises any question in my mind, any question, i cant sit rightly unless i get the answer. whenever questions related to other religions arose i consulted their followers but they dont reply it at all or their answers come out as confusing and conflicting. In contrast, there also came certain questions against Islam but whenever i searched their answers, i get it in a tip top position, very attractive, informative and logical.
Therefore, whenever a person gets answers, he / she makes a decision on that very answers.
Do you think it may be a bit biased? Like you believe what you want to believe? And if it conflicts with your original thoughts you may push it aside more easily? Is it fair to say you think your religion is the best for you? But may not be the only correct, or right for someone else?
you see, some people specially atheists are for adultry, homosexuality, drugs, alcohol etc ... but Islam is totally against it. Now here every one has the choice whether to accept Islam or not but only after you get the pictures of the both.
For me, wearing bra and panties on beaches is nude but for you, it's not, rather you feel you are hiding your modesty which lies only in your nipples and bottom.
Qur'an, Ch 2, THE COW, V 256: Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.
Ok so why do you feel it is your duty to give people the picture of Islam? Don't you think if someone wanted to know, they would learn for themselves? You admit that everyone has the choice. You do not follow atheism, or another religion because it is against the one you follow. You chose to follow Islam. And if you think everyone has the choice, why push Islam on others?
The definition of "nude" is completely naked. Do I believe I am completely naked when I am wearing a bathing suit? Of course not.
We are bound to show you the right way, no matter you follow it or not.
Qur'an, Ch 3, The Family of Imran, V 110: Ye are the best of peoples, developed for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors.
Also you can not become a doctor on your own, there must be teacher and books to follow, very logical.
Further to your previous reply, science, which is a superior phenomanon for atheists is against theirselves but agrees with Islam.
Interpolated Bibles, superior for Christians and Jews is against themselves but agrees with Islam.
Interpolated Hindu scriptures, superior for Hindus is against themselves and agrees with Islam.
All the above biased me to follow Islam.
That passage says that those who follow Islam are the best and those who do not would be better off if they did. But it does not tell the followers of Islam to try to convince others to follow. As far as the other comments you made. I do not agree with them at all. Saying that atheists do not follow and use science in their logic is wrong. You're right, there are books and professors and so on to aid in one becoming a doctor, however it is one's choice to become a doctor. Therefore they seek out their knowledge. If one does not seek the word of Islam, it is not your responsibility nor right to convince someone otherwise.
First of all, let it be very clear that i am not convincing you. In fact, it's just a presentation. Regarding the above mentioned verse of the Qur'an, let's analyse
Ye are the best of peoples ... after this you gave your own interpretation to the verse and discarded the rest of it. Further the verse gives the reason for Muslims being the best which is ...developed for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah... This makes it very clear that Muslims are not the best on the basis of color, language, book, religion, faith, practices etc rather they are built to serve the Mankind, they are built to present what is right and what is wrong without any compulsion. On this very verse a whole book can be written but i think that's enough for you.
Now, come to the doctor thing, you see, if you dont want to be a doctor then obviously you shall want something else. Even if you want to be an affective prostitute you need an experianced prostitute as a teacher to guide you how to gain maximum benifit out of your body.
..and as the best of people you just thought it would be a good idea for others to become sexist bigots.
@Usmanali You follow Islam.... because you were born to Moslem parents.... further you must have been brainwashed by the Pakistani Terrorist training schools called Madrasa.
i can give you a list of several others who were not born in any Muslim family yet they recognized the truth and joined the ultimate art of living - ISLAM
I concur.... there're Moslems who have converted to Christianity.... Christians converted to Budhists..... here we're talking about your personal journey to Islam.... which isn't much of a journey of discovery... you've totally biased views about every other religion.... Islam totally right... others false.... you're not going to change your views.... a trait most visible in fundamentalists..... were you trained in Madrasa for such biased views?
Dancing Jewish Cupcake Bakers.
hey listen everybody! some filthy freemasons made a new plan to destroy the world, I am planning a suicide attack on them
Janni, we got just the man for you!
You are right my dear, Freemasons, Zionists and Humanists will start WWIII just as they started WWII and WWI. Also the atomic bombardments were done by the Masonic State - USA
Yeah, but only after pearl harbor was attacked by the demon JapMasons!
do you ever calculate the innocent deaths in both pearl harbour and attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Now the 9/11 Vs Afghanistan innocent casualties.
so pearl harbor justifies atomic war .. ha ???
No, attacks by groups we disagree with do. Like those freakin' JapMasons!
They are the fellow of Antichrist ( Dajjal ) andevery part of their bodies need to be chopped
Well I will say this you are a man on a mission, and you can't be stopped. You are like a rock that can't be moved. You stand for what you believe, and I haven't seen you once try to convert anyone. You state your point. And go on.
most of the people justify and relates these attacks to pearl harbor
I didn't disregard it. I said exactly what you said. I understand what the passage meant.
Usman, you didn't get my point. Whatever career, doctor, prostitute? (I guess), teacher... you seek out the knowledge. Realize that using the word of Islam to back up your opinions does not make one want to learn and follow Islam. Because while Islam is what you have chosen, it may not be what someone else believes they should base their life on. You know that. You said yourself that people have a choice. You do not have a right to give your "presentation" or whatever you want to call it. Do you/have you ever done something that is not based on the teachings of Islam?
There is no being on earth who seeks out knowledge on its own. Unless you see the sky, you are unable to realize that there is a sky, unless you see doctors and medicine you are unable to realize that there are such things like doctors and medicine. The first stage is of presentation.
So unless you are presented with the ultimate art of living - Islam you can not realize that there even exists that kind of 100% accurate thing. Even doctors and scientis used to present their theoriess, ideas, thoughts and researches in front of public so that they start distinction between old and new, right and wrong, good and bad.
Yes maybe after seeing something that sparks an interest may someone seek out knowledge. Saying "hey I follow Islam and I think it encompasses great beliefs" is one thing, using passages to bash other religions and people is quite another.
Usman, realize, please, that Islam is for you. It is not, nor will it every be, for everyone. Religion is a personal choice. Your "presentation" is not introducing Islam to others but rather showing them that that is the only justification you have for anything. It is showing them about you, not about Islam. And you are not Islam. You didn't answer my question regarding doing something that is not based on Islam teachings. Basically, my point is, chill out on the Islam stuff. You're doing no good by using it as a basis for argument. You use it to bash others beliefs and lifestyles. No good Usman, no good. There is such a thing as freedom of religion. And in my beliefs the freedom to be yourself.
Relax...He isn't gonna listen...He has been thoroughly brainwashed... those terrorist schools do a thorough job... Usmanali is totally incapable of independent thinking now... another casualty of Madrasa.
You are right, I am not Islam. And chill out is also allowed in Islam but there are boundries for it. You can even chill out by merely abusing or giving out a false news but Islam prohibits these kind of chills for me.
Freedom of religion, i agree, but ISMs are not religions. Freemasonry is not a religion.
Giving out false news, basically lying, is not chilling out. I never suggested that. Freedom of religion also includes the freedom to live absent of an organized religion, or to change religions. Please respect that.
Yes, certainly you are free to choose anything. And that's enough respect from my side
@Usmanali We aren't discussing freemasons.... you're certainly suffering... are you aware of PPD.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoid_p … y_disorder
why the word Freemasons bite you always
I care a damn for them..... I dunno any freemasons.... It is you who has a fixation... which I'm pointing out.
you missed the target, the aero is after you now.
He means he is going to ignore your reply.
I will miss him... he is thoroughly entertaining... one doesn't meet "cave" men these days online... coming straight out of Tora Bora Caves.
Like the bible you can take the Quoran literally and have it say whatever you like.
Not just me Usman. Everyone. And if that is all the respect you will give, that's sad. It is sad that you are withholding respect because you want to prove that you're right.
what's your point ??
Why "and that's enough respect from my side"? Are you withholding respect for some reason? Seems strange to me. Whatever the reason, I'm going to sleep. I hope you'll chill out with the judgments and religion/people bashing. Whenever you feel the urge, just think about it and resist. I'm sure that bashing people is not a part of Islam. Night.
I always give respect specially to women and i did'nt bashed anybody.
You have bashed homosexuals, "Freemasons", those without organized religion, those with religions that are not your own, you told me that if I wore a bikini I was putting myself at risk for being raped, and that I was a "bad girl".
"You are bitter and have issues. I dont think your religion is working for you. Religion is not meant for such twisted hatred. Perhaps you should find a new one or drop religion all together."
"Look, my dear, your english language skills are very poor."
"You are denying His UNITY (ONENESS), You are denying His Message and Messengers"
"Shame on your old age. Look at your old age and look at your irrational comments."
"hhmmm ... it's not your fault as your mouth is suffering from rectal prolapse or may be anal fissures"
"and you need a doctor .. very seriously"
"...no fear of being trialed after death so let's go, shoot Lennon, enjoy LOL "
"So, you joined the hell at last."
"victims of rape do not gain anything from reporting the incident."
"If there is no religion - then there will be no terrorism" "Agreed excluding Islam"
"Hopefully those virgins will not be like you Are you virgin ???"
"If you have no interest in Islam then KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT. "
Looks like a whole lot of bashing to me. And obviously you aren't "flexible". I'm pretty sure bashing and now lying are not in the teachings of Islam.
Relax.... Don't take his words so seriously..... he is a nut case.... I find him very entertaining.
You built a strong case against me. and you forgot to mention that i do not call you DEAR anymore.
cannot believe this thread is stil going strong,,,,,, HI EVERYONE......
We certainly are the most dangerous animal, and possibly the dumbest. Even dirt is too smart to destroy itself and it's environment. "I think, therefore I am... a pain in earths ass"
Mark were is your rational explanation. For yours does not add up, but I am trying to see it.
I never said myself that I hear anything in my head, but I do listen to the silence, and the silence speaks to be in silence.
Maybe sometimes I come off arrogant, but not all people have reached this level of enlightenment (if that is what you call it.) we are speaking of, and because they are wanting it, and seeking it, you must use whatever words, terminology that they can grasp or comprehend for the time being. Some people are so sensitive that you could through them in to the next universe, and whos to say what would be come of them. And furthermore, love or the bigger then us that you like to use, loves much, and knows that some can't eat the whole thing at once. But in tiny bites
Especially For Mark....Faith was not pushed on me as a child....My parents didn't become Christians until their late 70's. I became a Christian in my mid 20's....Thanks to very special people in my life......So...You are not right to say, that faith was pushed on people as a child, at least in my case...Don't know about anyone else here....
I found the light shine on me when I was 14 at Church camp. The best life-changing event I went to. Then I go to Church camp almost every year. We actually had it again last July 3-5.
God bless you too!
My first conversion happened when I was 27 in a little city in Cebu Province.
I had been involved in activism that led to a short armed underground sortie that didn't progress much and ended with our cell being taken into custody by the Marcos intelligence dogs and just a comrade and myself escaping arrest.
I then took my entire family, wife and 2 daughters south, got a job, and was walking the neighborhood doing cold canvass when I chanced on this Baptist church.
To make a long story short, the following Sunday I was a visitor and was listening to this Bible-thumping, pulpit-pounding, heavily caffeinated, salivating preacher talking about a Christ in a way I have never heard of before in any of the religions in my religion-bound country.
I was a developing Marxist at this time in ideology and of course atheist in belief, and when I realized I was understanding this guy on the pulpit word for word in a dialect I BARELY spoke, I knew I had to have that Bible they were giving away to those who wanted to "accept" Christ as Savior, so I walked forward during the invitation.
I just wanted to know why I understood this guy word for word.
That was my first conversion.
There were subsequent conversions, doctrinally and practically through the next 36 years, from Arminianism to Strict Calvinism to just a believer in the Doctrine of Grace.
The Bible is a compilation of personal messages in a personal book by a personal God to His people and to them only.
Ah I see. Thanks for pointing that out. I am keen to know where it is you live that you did not have to recite "One nation under god" every morning in school (or in my case attend a morning service) and there are no churches ringing bells every day and putting posters outside their buildings and no evangelists on the TV.
Where is this exactly?
-Yeah I did Pledge The Alligence In School, when I was young, but by the time I reached High School, it had ceased.....I'm American Born....Did it feel like they were cramming God down my throat? No....You know, I'm beginning to feel sorry for you....You must have had a very bad life, at a young age....So did I, but I did not let it take over my life....It was much easier to forgive, then to carry all that bitterness around....
I never saw any evangilists until after I became a Christian, and until I became one, I paid no attention to the signs on the Churches....
Well, I already feel sorry for you.
You must have had a really really bad life to imagine that there is a life after you die that is somehow better than this one. And feel the need to evangelize about it in case others do not agree.
Rather sad really.
Good for you for being not affected by the signs outside the churches. Bet you are not affected by other forms of advertising either. Doesn't shape your decisions in any way.
Sorry to be the one to point out that you have been sold a bill of goods and even though you do not speak Greek or Aramaic or Hebrew, you are convinced that King James was in no way influenced by his personal goals when instructing the translators to translate the bible the way he said or die horrible deaths.
Very, sad - I feel sorry for you. What a crying shame.......
Never mind - I bet it helps to know you will live forever after you die.
Mmm read the bible
I have a few times but still cannot make head nor tail of it.
Some people say 'it comes alive' and 'speaks to them'
how is this ?
There are some great verses in the bible though that are a good encouragement and in this world hope is what a lot of people need
so maybe will try again
It is a great book , The Bible ,most loved , most hated , and most sold.
Some of it is heavy ( like one of those old Shakespeare drama's) and some is inspiring , some romantic ( Song of Solomon) woohooo...
I liked Proverbs alot last month ,lately Corinthians.
I can see why it also has been called "Lifes Instruction Manual"
For even though its been scoffed at and its truths ridiculed , one thing can not be denied.
It has survived and when most of us on this forum are all gone , The Bible will still be around ...
Jenz for you > Matthew 5, 1-10
You forgot "most forced upon with threats of physical violence."
Easy to forget that one. Conveniently............
Oh I left out many other things historic, inspirational,contraversial, violent , passionate...more
Inaccurate, responsible for millions of deaths, wildly mis-interpreted, irrational, etc etc etc.
Fortunately, as some one else pointed out - holding irrational beliefs used to be an evolutionary advantage, but is becoming less so.
Thankfully. Unless of course education really takes a hit in the financial crisis and homeschooling becomes the norm again. Maybe then it will once again take a good grip.
LOL This is where we definitely diverge. Coming from the country where homeschooling was just impossible, cause government had to indoctrinate every single child, I look at homeschooling much more favorably
It depends on your motivations. If you homeschool your children because you think evolution is a lie and you wish to ensure that they believe that you are correct...........
It is still the same motivation - to escape government indoctrination, whatever part of it a particular person does not sign up to
Well, I guess if you think all scientific knowledge is "government indoctrination," then you have no options but to do it yourself.
Personally - I do not feel qualified to teach on a massive range of subjects. But if you feel you have a good grasp of quantum mechanics, biology, computer programming and French, I am sure that is fine.
I was fortunate enough to be exposed to a pretty good education and am very glad my mum did not decide I should spend all day having her teach me.
LOL, ok, let me rephrase a bit - whatever part of public education a particular person perceives as indoctrination. How is that?
Like I said - it rather depends on your motivation. There are plenty who would prefer to homeschool because they believe evolution is a lie.
If I genuinely felt that the government was using the education system to indoctrinate my children, I would homeschool them. If I genuinely felt I could provide them with a better education than the public school system does, I would do as well.
But most of the people I have come across who homeschool their children do it for religious reasons.
Which - as you may guess - is not a good reason as far as I am concerned.
Believe it or not, I do think government indoctrinate our kids. Not only the soviet one, american does the same, and I would suspect england and france don't differ much. Just listen to "The Wall" once again, to get my drift, as our fiery friend puts it
Oh - I am well aware the government Inc indoctrinates kids. I went to church boarding school.
But - I am not so sure it is practical to homeschool your kids. After all, chemistry is chemistry and French is French.
And they will indoctrinate them in other ways anyway. "An Army of One," comes to mind. But you still have influence after school is out.
I homes school to allow my children to naturally form there own opinions. Allowing them to read all forms of literature and what not. And making sure they form there on conclusions, not someone else s. I believe the schools today shove it down there throat and say this is the way it is, not allowing for children to explore and discover things for themselves. Everything is fact and don't question nothing..is the way teacher around here are.
I went to public school my whole life. I was challenged, able to learn skills that have helped me in life and put me ahead in college. I never had a dress code, was able to discover who I am, develop important social skills and learned how to deal with and respect authority. I read amazing pieces of literature, books that I reread every year because I always learn something I didn't find the first time. Our opinions were always valued. If we saw something no one else did in the writings we were praised. There was never "well that's just the way it is." I was able to tailor my education to my goals and interests. We went on field trips all around the state, and couple in others. I was a part of the soccer team and the tennis team. I participated in debate, the science club and a medical program. All without feeling stressed or overworked or that I was a nerd, jock, prep, or a part of any other clique.
I'm sorry about your experience with the teachers in your school district. I wish every child could have had the experience I did.
Your life has been fortunate Colebabie, and you have used it well. It is nice to see your appreciation for it.
Well, this is a laudable goal, but some things are facts. I don't see how teaching A2+B2=C2 or the correct usage of the word "their," or where Ghana is, is forcing something down anyone's throat.
And having a library and the skill set up to this task must surely be outside the reach of most people's wallet.
First of all when it comes to my children, I will do whatever I have to do, for their best interest. If i needed to buy a library I would sell whatever valuables I have. But we have, libraries very close (a block a way from home) plus the internet, so on and so forth. But I believe that the most important trait that I could passed down to my children is through my example, of standing up for oneself, and learning to trust their own gift of judgment (discerning.), but at the same time being kind, but firm. All else is secondary.
I was not saying you would not do anything for your kids. I personally would not be able to educate my kids to the level I would desire because I do not have the resources or the skills. I simply do not understand chemistry or physics, for example, at a level I would be comfortable trying to teach them.
Obviously you think you do. And I agree that the most important thing is to teach them good judgment. Whether this is a "gift" that every one has is open to debate.
Please do not take this as a personal attack, because it was not meant as one.
No I don't take anything personal no more, if I did I would clam up and not say one word. But now I say whats on my mind, and enjoy it much. Know I don't know these things chemistry or physics, although I am a fast learner, and if I needed to I would learn along with my children in those areas of study, My main reason for homeschooling (son is 12yrs old) (daughter is 16mths) is to give them the right foundation first and then, if he chooses to go back into main stream school and he desires to learn chemistry and physics, then so be it, what ever my children decide to peruse in life, I will be there to cheer them on.
Ah - see this is where we differ. At 12 - I think you already need an understanding of electronics, chemistry and physics. And I do not think a 12 year old is capable of deciding whether or not to learn them.
In fact, if you want to understand how anything works, I do not see how you can do without these sort of subjects. For example - I do not know how my computer works. Do you?
I would not know how to go about teaching my kids the right foundation in these subjects because I do not myself have a good enough grasp of them. In fact - I have friends whose jobs I do not understand. What does a software developer need as a basis for their education? No idea.
No I am talking about having the right foundation for learning, but to able to stand up if need be to his elders in school, and not take what they say lying down, but have the ability to stand up to anyone they disagree with on something because "they say" it is fact and not open to further discussion. Children, are not dumb and they are not dogs, they should be allowed to express themselves freely. As long as they are not hurting someone else. And if my child desired to go in that direction of study then there would be a desire tugging them to do so. I believe we are capable of learning anything, at any age, if we are open to it. I don't believe, that as you age you lose this ability, nor slow down the ability
Well, we will have to agree to differ on these things. I do not see how a child can have a "desire" tugging at them to learn something they have never heard of.
And it has been well proven that learning foreign languages are much much harder, the older you get.
I have also found it far harder to learn new things as I get older, and part of that is a lack of understanding of the fundamentals.
Like I said earlier - you are talking about values rather than knowledge and I would not wish to limit my children by waiting for a "desire to tug them" to learn something. The best time to learn anything is when you are young and your mind is more open.
Well I will agree, that children are very open when they are young and this is the very reason that they need to have the proper foundation to have there minds stay open, through out life, and I never said that they won't have all studies available to them, to pick and choose, and to know that they are out there for them if they have the desire to further learn more in it that area. Well knowledge is power, but understanding is everything.
So tell me then....Why have people died, because they believe in The Bible?
No ellie it depends on who you believe wrote the bible, was it the spirit of evil or the spirit of good? For the good spirit, saves lives and the spirit of evil kills, so I guess if you believe that the spirit of good inspired it then you might just die for your belief in that.
got to go lay my child down for a nap but would still like to finish this some time
Denys, I think i agree with Mark, you need to do your homework on evolution before you guys can move any further. You don't seem to understand that it is not about ape banging ape and giving birth to a human child.
first of all I am not stupid I know that. Second of all I did skim over it earlier before mark posted here, i was over in science forums earlier, second I watch alot of discovery channel, national geographic and so on. And I don't believe humans came about from two apes banging one another. And yes I do think I understand now that humans and apes branched off from the same "branch" you might say. Is this correect And yes I went back to the article and I read the whole thing.
I do believe that if need be that an animal that is threaten in its environment, could adept and possibly evolve as in lizard to water lizard growing fins and what not. And I could even see a human that would be threaten over time (like the movie water world) to adapt to a new way of living. But it would not lose its intelligence. And I will read up some more on all of this.
An interesting point to look for is the point at which time we started creating art. Or rather became "self aware"
Not so long ago really. About 35,000 years is the best guess so far.
Who knows - but that is what I would be arguing if I was a religionist...............
And I know plenty of humans who seem to have lost their intelligence.
Oh, I definitely know you are not stupid. Just a statement of ape+ape=human did not really go well with understanding of evolution, hence my suggestion. And now it seems you got closer to understanding of evolution. The key thing really is that it is not ape+ape=human, but rather ape+ape=marginally changed ape, repeated countless times; plus those apes that better fit the environment tend to more often survive and make ape+ape
Texas board of education just passed laws that include creationism taught in Biology. Which is potential serious since most textbooks in the US are produced in Texas and Texas education has a tendency to dictate what is in text books.
I home school,
Did Hitler start war because he followed the Bible ...
No ,he along with Stalin (and others) were Atheists
them and us
or simply evil versus good , intelligent minds would choose...an intelligent answer
Kiwi, are you implying atheists are evil? I would take an offense on this.
Of course she is. She speaks for god (good) and atheists do not (evil).
She is apparently choosing to ignore the fact that Hitler was a Catholic and started the "Christian National Party," using the ancient christian symbol the Swastika.
I would argue that swastika is older than catolics, but this is immaterial in the sense of this argument
So are you assuming all Catholics are Christians now?
Wow I never said all atheists were evil ,although Mark appears to 'know my mind' oh and Gods too...
I thought all Catholics believed in Jesus through the Trinity... is that not so?
Your original post says just that: hitler and stalin atheists, them vs us, evil vs good... you really could have found better arguments...
Id argue with a monkey ,but they cant talk
yea what I should have said was christians have done things in the name of God etc ( when really it was what they wanted to do)
and the same can be said for non-christians , atheists , o whoever else is against God and or bible...
History books are full of people who had all kinds of influences.
Actually both the Nazis and the Communists studied Darwinism.
How are Communism and Nazism based upon evolutionary thinking?
The Root of Terrorism - Darwinism and Materialism
And you are full of crap Mark.
Hitler didn't start the Christian National Party. He started the National Socialist German Workers Party popularly known as the Nazi Party.
And the Swastika is not a Christian symbol. Archaeological evidence of swastika-shaped ornaments dates from the Neolithic period. It occurs mainly in the modern day culture of India, sometimes as a geometrical motif and sometimes as a religious symbol. It remains widely used in Eastern religions / Dharmic religion such as Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism. Many modern far right and neo-nazi groups such as Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging, the Syrian Social Nationalist Party and Russian National Unity use stylized swastikas or similar symbols.
But what is more troubling is the connection between the Seventh-Day Adventists in Nazi Germany and the endorsement of the Seventh-Day Adventists by US political leaders on both sides of the political spectrum.
Seventh-Day Adventists in Nazi Germany
President Bush and Seventh-Day Adventist
Senator Clinton and Seventh-Day Adventist
SO, we agree - religion is just an excuse.
Thanks Make Money, I can rest easy knowing that the Christian National Party that Hitler started was just another excuse to use your invisible super being.
I really, really appreciate you pointing out the seventh day Adventists as being exactly the same as all the other religionist political religions such as the catholic child molesting party.
Oh, I am sorry - the holy see.
As usual, your contribution is a 4LOL one. Good luck with the child abuse. Hope it goes well for you.
Nice link Mark. I especially like the quote from Nazi's program in relation to our current vocal proponents of public needs
Oh, well, those who don;t remember history are doomed to repeat it, true dat.
Also, I got a question. Mike states you are full of crap. Implying of course that he is not. Do you know what exactly his ass produces then? Diamonds?
Wouldn't even care to guess what his ass produces.
I know what comes out of the other end though.
Oh aren't you a sly one Mark.
I read this two page site you posted but it does not mention anything about a "Christian National Party" even though you used "Christian National Party" as the text link for this web site.
That's getting pretty sleazy Mark.
It's getting to the point where we can not believe anything you say at all Mark.
In fact Mark the web site that you posted says this on the top of the 2nd page.
"Slightly more common were anti-clerical Nazis who continued to accept basic theistic and Christian doctrines, but who repudiated churches and priests. This seems to have been a view gradually adopted by Hitler himself."
Here's some more quotes from Adolf Hitler from this web page.
Wow I think I remember you saying those exact words Mark, "The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death". Is Hitler a hero of yours or something?
And there are more disgusting quotes by Hitler, your hero on the above web site Mark. The above web site also refutes what the character on the web site that you posted says about Steigmann-Gall's book.
Mark what I find amazing is how close some of your posts and some posts by your New Age friends are to what Hitler said. And what some people from one denomination say as well. Because Hitler's Germany followed Seventh Day Adventist beliefs the German people are still paying reparation to the Jews for the atrocities their nation committed over 60 years ago.
Hitler actually had a great deal of Christian influence (having been born into a Catholic family) on his world view. He was a great fan of passion plays (would have loved Mel Gibson's movie) and was aided and abbeted by church leaders who also wanted a "final solution"
Doesn't the government dictate the curriculum anyway? Like, you can't just home school your kids and teach them whatever you want; aren't there requirements that need to be met in order to receive a state certified Diploma? Otherwise, what's the point of going to school? Some states have really awful education programs, so that's kind of not fair if this is an option for people subjective to crappy schools systems since they don't tell you have the choice to do better...
My Niece Home Schools her children...One has graduated...Yes, there are rules that she must follow....And when the child reaches Jr. High-School Age, they need to be enrolled, and take some courses, such as Physical Education, Biology, Etc. which can't be taught at home....This will go on, until the child graduates, from the local High School.....This is in Washington State.....
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