Well it is the communication between us and God. It is a time when the soul can be freed of the distractions of the world and focus our spirit on God. It is a time to feed the spiritual side of man. This has been my experience with prayer. I am sure there are more profound answers to this question.
Two hands working accomplish more than billions clasped in prayer.
We wonder what inconsequential prayers theists have towards their gods. Clearly, they aren't praying for the thousands of children who starve every day, despite their gods efforts or lack thereof.
Yes, what is the meaning of prayer if not something to do when you don't want to do anything.
I REALLY WANT TO KNOW THE MEANING OF PRAYER.
Two hands working accomplish more than billions clasped in prayer.
We wonder what inconsequential prayers theists have towards their gods. Clearly, they aren't praying for the thousands of children who starve every day, despite their gods efforts or lack thereof.
Yes, what is the meaning of prayer if not something to do when you don't want to do anything.
I will tell you a little story. There was in a certain church, a person that sought God through prayer for the church and community around. As this person spent time in prayer with God, He began to open their eyes to what was happening around. The year was 2008 around March and this person communicated to the church that they could consider expanding their Food Pantry Ministry and cater for more people.
Ofcourse the practical and hardworking ones thought it was just more work to do. They resisted that idea and trashed it. Then between Sept and October of 2008 this person began to be terribly burdened for this ministry as they prayed. One day during prayer God clearly showed this person that in 2009 people would be queueing for food at this church and so they were to hasten and reorganize their closet size ministry to a much larger one.
This dear person knew that even if the idea had been ditched before they had to go talk to someone who they were led to according to the Spirit of God. Well to cut a long story short, this leader received the message, committed it and within a couple of weeks things started moving. Today that ministry feeds more than 6000 families each month, you should see the long lines of people waiting to get some food twice a week at this church.
This person continues to pray that God will raise more workers to serve in this pantry and more contributions to feed the people. As this one prays, they are as much a partner in this ministry as the ones who are in the forefront.
A lot of times people who pray are led to attend to a lot of things that need attention at the appropriate time. If only there were a billion hands clasped in prayer at any one time, this whole world would no longer have atheists and scorners!
In other words, the person told the other people what he thought.
Then clearly, they aren't very practical or hard working if the resisted to work, are they?
What is that supposed to mean?
Clearly showed? How clearly was it, did god come down to earth and talk with him or did it just pop into his head? Please demonstrate what you mean by "clearly showed" as it has no meaning whatsoever?
Highly debatable and even more highly unlikely. Sorry, your claim doesn't fly.
Again, you're ability to spin this achievement with an alleged message from god doesn't fly at all. It's mere faith based speculation and nothing more.
You haven't demonstrated one iota that prayer has anything to do with that. It's merely your own personal belief and nothing more.
So, let's get back to the tens of thousands of children who starve to death every day. If that person has such a connection with his god to make things such as you described happen, why does it happen to him and yet those children starve to death every day?
Once again, you make claims that prayer works, yet you can't substantiate when it doesn't.
If you cannot get the substance of how prayer works, you have an idea that people who spend time in prayer do get things done. If you do not believe how it happened in the prayer life of this dear person I am talking about, you at least do have evidence that praying is not a waste of time. You have results and in this case it is a food pantry that feeds over 6000 people in a month. If truly billions of hands clasped in prayer existed, there would be no starving children. But as it is, many people spend time complaining about God who does not lift a hand to help their neighbors when they have all in their power to make a difference, there you Go!
Prayer is an act of faith, the substance is what you see later which those who pray see way before they are substantiated. I have no doubt about a God who hears, answers prayer and intervenes as we allow Him to. If you yourself have even an iota of faith to believe that He can talk to you, He will. If you do not, sorry, it is not anyone's fault, it is your choice. God has given us the earth and the fullness thereof to discover, to interact with and learn from, we choose what we want, I can only share my faith with you, the rest is your choice. I have very little time to debate faith issues, but a lot of time to share them. That is more interesting because it is experience.
I have never seen such evidence, by you or anyone else.
There was no connection whatsoever made by the prayer and the results.
But, there are billions clasped in prayer and there are thousands of starving children.
No one is blaming your god. It is the people who pray and make claims that prayer works that are blamed for their folly.
Like the tens of thousands of starving children? This is substance?
Of course you do, and you ignore the fact that your god does not intervene when it is very important for him to do so and when those prayers fall on deaf ears.
Sorry, but I don't but that bullshit. You are now making claims that you are "special" and that it's all my fault. I find your responses typical and sickening.
In other words, you will continue to spread your selfish ideals while ignoring everything else. Please go away. Your type are truly Christian, and truly disgusting.
Thanks dear friend. I wonder why you are so angry? You call Him my god,I did not. He is our God and as I told you, I am not stopping you from calling Him 'your' God either. I hope to meet you in the forums again. No hard feelings, I love you and I mean it. Is that disgusting too?
Are you an atheist? I am asking that because you call 'us' theists. So what should attract me to your circle when a mere expression of my belief drives you to the edge? Sorry, I wish there was a better way of putting it, what we do with our lives is a choice. Your choice is atheism, anger, and all those things that are meant to push away people like me; my choice is to believe that there is a God, to tell that He exists and I talk with Him everyday. It is to see the glass half-full and not half-empty. You cannot change that and nor do I think I can change your view if you do not choose otherwise. WE call that freewill, you should thank God for it, He is so selfless and loving. If He was a tyrant like a lot of us, you would not even be existing today to sling mud at him as you are doing. He loves you and nothing you do will change that. I love you too.
Any way, as I said, it is my duty to share with others even those who think I am a villain. Sometimes we know that our sharing makes no difference at the time it is done, but we do know that no matter what happens, one day those words will be used by a judge during trial or those who hear them may get a chance to reflect on them in a moment of sanity.
I wish you well dear Q, very well. I really do like you and if the word love is meaningless, hideous and offensive to you, then I love you even more. Be blessed by the God who created you whether or not you like it or do not think so. Does it change anything? NO, not God or His eternal truths.
Your god delusions have nothing to do with me.
Your choice is lies, deceit, hatred, bigotry, oppression and ignorance.
In other words, you talk to yourself.
Again, your god delusions and fantasies have nothing to do with me or reality.
He is a mass murderer and a despot.
You can't change something that isn't there.
You are a villian, as per your duty.
Whether I like it or not is irrelevant. Your god delusions have nothing to do with me.
I'm just curious, Q -- would you speak the same way to a man who was bent on praying to God over a wife who was dying? Just a hypothetical question I'd like to know the answer to.
He will "post" it to the terminally ill without conscience.
What do you mean by, "speak the same way"?
I think there are always scenarios that can be created in a relative world where absolutes lose their meanings.
But, if I were to tell that man that prayer had no effect and that thousands of children die each day despite the prayers of billions, he would probably care less, considering his wife was dying. He would probably gladly exchange many thousands of deaths of people he does not know in order to save his wifes life.
That answer deflects the question onto "others." As I see you doing again and again on these forums. It almost, I'd counter, places you in the position of "God."
At the basis of my question is grasping what your sense of 'empathy' is. It seems to be lacking...and it is part of an emotional intelligence factor. Or haven't your read the latest research into human intelligence?
I did answer. I said it's easy to set up scenarios like the paradox you introduced. What's more interesting though, are the startling and contrasting contradictions prayer offers.
Empathy? You speak of empathy?
Would that be the same empathy the believers on these forums have exhibited towards the unfortunate while they praise their god in self-indulgent hypocrisy?
Hmmm. I came back because I was curious after some of your other posts around the forums, and I find your answer somewhat functioning as a Rorschach test. IE, you are the one who set up a paradox...I simply asked how you would react to a man praying over his wife dying (as in, how would you behave toward him). Interesting.
I also think you are reading into things a great deal with that "the believers on these forums have exhibited towards the unfortunate." ...I do not appreciate religionists or fundamentals either, actually, but to assume they are all (all?) hypocrites in an out and out fashion is going a little far. You simply cannot know.
I do get the paradox you present, yep. But really don't have an issue personally separating the anthropomorphism of God from other conceptions. And that's what your ideas here amount to...the flip side of fundamental theism...a philosophy "against."
And of course by empathy I mean presented on an individual basis like that--that you have enough respect for the others' humanity that you would allow them the comfort of their beliefs.
That would hold true if the same were offered, but the beliefs of theists pervade all of society, infecting that which ultimately affects me and disrespects me.
Respect isn't something simply offered those who wish to believe in fairy tales, it's earned, first.
"Empathy" has a distinctly different meaning from "respect." And requires distinctly different social skill set--in action. But after what I saw, I'm not going to get into a silly semantic fight with you, lol.
And it does sound like you are mad at the entire world or all of society, then, that it all is against you. Hmmm. Almost like a crucifixion complex.
Cheer up! Join the Mark Knowles is a satanist or whatever thread for fun!
Seriously, I'd probably say--chin up.
Whether its respect or empathy, little is offered by theists as they march through history on their way to mankinds destruction.
You keep getting it wrong, a poor judge of character, perhaps.
Cheer up, chin up, it's all just placation and patronizing so those of us you consider "mad at the world" with a "crucifixion complex" stay in the corner and keep quiet.
If you want to make me angry, it is not working. Try something else. I love you. What do you have to say about that? I love you because Jesus first loved me. Does that make you angry?
I love you, I love you and nothing will change that. God loves you too.
I forgot something. I was doing my best not to laugh at all the things you were saying to me. Why are you so angry?
I'm not angry at you personally, I'm angry at what religion has done to you. People are people, everywhere, we are all humans. It is religion that changes them into something else that isn't a human anymore.
Thanks that you are not angry at me. As for what religion has done to me, you do not need to be angry about that either it has made me a better person. It has given me hope. My hope is in Christ. I am comforted to know that my life is not meaningless, that there is a God who created me and that He cares about and loves me so dearly. I am comforted to know that in the midst of the chaos and confusion that 'sin' causes, I can have peace and know that no matter what happens I have a future and a hope and it is not only for me. It is for all those who will believe.
Am I pushing the envelope? I hope not, I cannot help sharing with you (stuff you already probably know about) because I love you Q. Yes I do.
i think prayer shouldn't be what you do when you don't want to do anything. prayer should be a means of communication between you and your God.
Newworld Dictionary defines PRAYER as: 1. the act or practice of praying as to God. 2. an earnest request; entreaty; supplication. 3. a humble and sincere request to God. 4. an utterance to God in praise, thanksgiving, confession, etc. 5. a devotional service consisting chiefly of prayers. 6. any spiritual communion with God. 6. a request, petition.
A prayer said alone in all sincerity in a sacred place, is to me, a better prayer.
lol you always amuse man.
Can you prove it does nothing?
Harvard and other universities have been measuring the effects of the human conscienceness on the world for decades.
They also study the,"Chi", and the abilities of the masters of Tibet and others, to impact people and things from great distances.
So how could any fairly reasonable individual, dismiss so causually, the inpact of prayer on the world?
Truly a closed minded way to percieve the power of prayer and the human conscienceness if you ask me.
In my opinion and experience prayer unites the mortal soul with divine power. When an individual communes with his Maker, he becomes more like Him in character. Prayer allows the portals of the soul to open with a real supernatural being. There is a sense of peace that overwhelms the heart. Christ himself connects with us. His great desire is to uplift the praying suppliant, and bring him or her in to a relationship with him that is much closer than that of the angels who surround his throne. As it says in the bible, "That shall be as the angels in heaven". Again Christ declares that he will grant for us to sit in his throne even as he has overcame and have sat with his father in his throne".
A reaching out to a greater power. Not necessarily asking for anything. At times just striving to make contact.
I just prayed to god to feed the starving children of the world for one day. Let's see if the statistics change tomorrow to show not one single child died of starvation.
Did you ever think that maybe God is saving them from the miserable life they already have? Don't take it as I dont have compassion for the children that are dieing either because I do, very much. I feel for those families that struggle, and lose their children.
That is very illogical. These children die simply because of where they are born! You disgust me!
Hi Earnest, downunder (what in God's name is the time down there!!! ). I am as much on the non-believer side as you, and agree that there is something illogical in what she said, but why is it so disgusting? Not with you there, old man
That is, by far and away, the most despicable thing anyone could say. Words can describe what kind of person you are, but it would be stooping to your low level to do so. You Christians have called me 'mean spirited' but you have reached a level of disgust and reproach that clearly demonstrates the ignorance, bigotry and hatred your religion exhibits.
I am deeply saddened by your horrific response. You truly are a Christian.
It is the time we spend talking to God. It may include giving glory to God, thanking God for what you have received from Him or asking for His favor for yourself or others. Prayer could be in your own words or ones that have been said for a couple of thousand years by millions of people in diverse languages.
Unfortunately, your god isn't listening. Either that, or he favors you and ignores the plight of those dying of starvation.
You're well fed, I presume? Comfy, are you?
I feel obliged to say something about the starving children Q is mentioning. I think that we as a nation (the United States) have come to believe that we can, by simply giving food to 'starving nations', fix the problems of those nations. I further believe that is not the case. I believe that may be a good temporary fix, for a non-chronic problem, but that to truly solve the problem they must learn how to feed themselves. Just like God's refusal to 'magically' fix the things we do not want to fix ourselves. We must show these 'starving nations' how to do it themselves, and then allow them to do so, or not, as they choose. We have tried to teach farmers in those countries better ways to cultivate the land, better crops to plant. Better ways to store and preserve foods. They refuse to adapt, they refuse to adopt the new methods, they prefer to do things the way they always have and rely on the generosity of other nations to 'magically' fix the problem by giving them the rest. In the long run it only hinders their growth as a nation and as a people. They must fix their own countries, or allow their countries to perish. It is a case of tough love, and so are the 'unanswered prayers'.
Are you saying this from experience or from hearsay? I would like you to elaborate. Thanks.
which part are you asking about? The attempts to give them the better farming technologies?? I saw a program on Discovery or National Geographic years ago... The other side to the 'just give it' to them scenario is strong men (Government Officials) in those countries take the Red Cross relief shipments of foods/supplies and make money from them. (also seen on those programs) The rest of it is my common sense.
Several years ago (about 5 to be precise)I was involved in a discussion like this with some people online. Just to give a better and more informed view from people directly involved in this kind of environment. I will try and pull it out from the archives if it still exists so I can share somehow on here.
I happen to be from a country and people whose condition may be spoken of here. My honest view is that a lot of people who happen to be poor living in poor nations, resource poor countries as they are called socially now, are hard working people who do their best to fork out a living for themselves and their children. There may be the educated few who know about donor monies, who know how to write grant proposals, know where the loot comes from and benefit from it. The majority of the people are hard working people who would take advantage of any program that promises to give them knowledge that would improve their livelihood, they do not wait for someone to spoon feed them. Even if they did, they would probably all die waiting. That is how much aid the average individual receives.
I have a passion and compassion for my people and many like them whose children may be dying daily from malnutrition not because they are lazy but because of lack of resources. They work from dawn till sunset, just to get enough bread to feed themselves.
Q has talked a lot about our God who neglects hungry children. I should take Him to my grandmother's village and show him what the Catholic Church has been doing amongst the people in a remote part of the world that many would not even care to know about. For more than 16 years the catholics have lived amongst the people, teaching them about God and teaching them new methods of agriculture. Connecting them to organizations that would benefit them. Now, the villagers have hybrid crops and seeds that yield more in a lesser time and survive even in drought situations.
These villagers, most of whom could not even afford a goat now own cattle and they have paid for them fully, in kind or in cash, according to their capability.
That is an illustration of the work of the Church, which in essence represents the work of God here on earth. At the same time it is one of my major evidence of how grass-roots people have been given access to what they never had access to but were accused of abusing. These people are hard working and sincere.
I will try and find that article. Governments can be corrupt and are, people do horrible things. It happens in other countries just as it happens here in America talk about the financial scandals that rocked the economy of this country? That tells you of human nature, we could not care less about others if things are okay for us.
On the other hand if we let God impassion us, we forget about ourselves (not behave selfishly) so that all will benefit.
One need not have to convert others into their religion just to help them survive. That speaks more about the selfishness and underlying agenda of the Catholic Church than it does their charity. And of course, that can easily be demonstrated by the armies of secular organizations and their volunteers who simply help and teach those people to survive without having to indoctrinate them into a cult.
No it isn't, it is a representation of the compassion that has evolved in humans and animals over the years. It is part of the human condition, not part of a faith-based ideology.
I suspect they are more 'sincere' about conversion than they are anything else.
So, in other words, people do good things and people do bad things, and the good things are only attributed to faith based ideologies and the bad things are due to human nature. And, as an added luxury, let's blame the government.
It's all about your god and being in his favor, isn't it.
It's all about your god and being in his favor, isn't it.
Its about being loved Q, its about Him loving me and me loving Him an in turn loving others. I cannot help but talk about Him. I have been smitten, can't help it; if its good, you tell about it.
It has been such a wonderful pleasure meeting you Q. God has created so many interesting people and you are one of them. And when I say interesting, I mean it. I love you and you interest me. I will keep your name on my lips as I talk with my Father, God. Be blessed. Isabella. Signing off.
Ah, he loves you but he must really hate children as he murders thousands of them every day. You must be very happy that you're so special that he kills thousands so you can be loved.
Tell your god to come over and visit me, I have many things to say to him, before and after I kick him in his happy sack.
God creates all, what is death most dont know , is it bad to die or good to die??
"Death is my friend
Where there is no trend
Why fear it is really near."
For me, prayer is an attempt to feel connected to something greater than myself. Prayers are not wishing on a star, in order to get God to use magic to fix my own or wordly problems. Prayers are a meditative state in which I feel open, centered, focused and usually they are a source of inspiration and peace. When I pray I talk to God as if my 'Imaginary' friend were sitting there with me, and most times I feel God's prescence (or what I have come to call God's prescence). I see things differently when I pray, and have come to identify my changed perceptions as God's answering voice. That my perceptions and what I have decided those mean might be only my own invention doesn't bother me at all. I am convinced and since there is no proof to the contrary, I must be right. Sometimes my prayers aren't peaceful and calm. Sometimes I'm mad when I pray. Sometimes that is how I deal with stressful situations I have no power to change. Prayer in my humble opinion is different for each person as God intended it to be. Peace and Love.
Prayer: n. the act of speaking to an Invisible Sky Person, and then sitting around on your butt doing nothing while waiting for a response that will never come.
Hi, you are bonding with Jesus ;D. Talking to him with your heart.
Merry Christmas, Happy Hannaka,..
Do you want to know what it is? ... or what it really is?
PRAYER IS TALKING OR COMMUNICATING WITH OUR CREATOR/GOD! IT IS SHARING WITH HIM HOW YOU FEEL, WHAT YOU NEED OF HIM! EXAMPLE: SOMETIMES YOUR MIND WILL BE HEAVY, LOADED, YOU ARE GOING THROUGH IN THIS LIFE; YOU NEED SOMEONE TO TALK TO BESIDES A FRIEND OR FAMILY MEMBER. IT COMES A TIME YOU MIGHT HAVE TO TAKE A WALK, DRIVE OR GO SOMEWHERE ALONE..AND AS STRANGE AS IT MAY SEEM...WHEN YOU ARE ALONE JUST YOU AND HIM..THIS UNSEEN GOD IS LISTENING TO YOU AS YOU BREAK DOWN IN TEARS AND YOU BEGIN TO TELL HIM YOUR PROBLEMS. DON'T WORRY ABOUT SHEDDING TEARS...AT THAT MOMENT HE IS BOTTLING THEM UP AS HE LISTENS TO YOU THAT MOMENT. HE IS LISTENING CAREFULLY...MAYBE YOU ARE SITTING, WALKING OR STANDING..HE IS LISTENING. NOW AFTER YOU HAVE OPENED YOUR MOUTH AND EMPTIED TO HIM HOW YOU FEEL; YOU THEN BEGIN TO FEEL THE LOAD RELEASED FROM YOUR MIND. YOU FEEL BETTER BECAUSE YOU KNOW LONGER CARRY THE BURDENS...HE DOES! TRY IT! GUARANTEE YOU WILL FEEL BETTER. DO IT! GET AWAY-TELL HIM YOUR PROBLEMS WHAT YOU NEED AND WATCH HIM ANSWER YOUR PRAYERS! GOD BLESS! HOPE THIS HAS BEEN HELPFUL! AND YOU DON'T CARE WHO SEE YOU BECAUSE THEY SHOULD BE DOING THE SAME....PRAYING TO OUR CREATOR. HE KNOW MORE ABOUT YOU THEN YOU KNOW ABOUT YOURSELF!
Food for the starving, please.
Or, lying on the ground near death.
And, doing nothing.
Does he carry the burdens of starvation rather than feed the hungry?
You must feel wonderful that your Jesus spends so much time listening to you while others perish.
The problems of the starving are simple and easy to understand. Their prayers continue to go unanswered. Is this the blessing you praise of your god?
HELLO! There is an elephant sharing your toilet seat and you have not even noticed. Your god who is looking over you, is not looking after people who need it, starving to death while your god does nothing for them. Doesn't god bother with the poor and sick? No of course not! He is too busy listening to Sarah Pailin screamin in tongues and finding some loony religionist's car keys PulLEEEEEEEEEEZE!!!!!!
"To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner, confessedly unworthy." a.b.
Well they are things that you say to god to either worship the lord or ask them for things like "my dog is dying please cure it" You can find prayers online to help you with situations too.
Prayer is communicating with God. It is what you do when you have a relationship with Him. Communication is key in any relationship. So it is in our relationship with God. We must have communication with Him in order to deepen and nurture the relationship, and prayer is the means.
Seyiari, if you really want to know the meaning of prayer then the best way to know is to start praying.
Pray is communing with oneself to know his true Origin and Creator.
It has very little o do with the things you say.
But does affect your speech and life greatly.
When all those children starve to death each day in countries where faith in god is clearly more important than feeding people, how do you live with yourself and your creator knowing this?
Than feed them. The responsibilty that people are willing to avoid is quite apaaling. If God fixed every ill in this world, we would already be in Heaven, but we are here on earth now. And how could this be heaven if it is filled with those who will not feed the hungry, but rather blame it on a God they don't believe in ?
Yes, is is beyond appalling, all they do is sit around and pray for things to change.
Oh no, bad call. You just stuck your size 12 foot way down your throat, boots and all.
You don't appear to be starving, right? You have plenty of food, yes? Did you pray for the food or did you go out and get it yourself? Did you pray at dinnertime to thank your god for providing your food?
Do you see why your foot is now in firmly in your mouth?
No I don't. I do pray for my food, and for food of others as well. Prayer changes the heart as it is our time in communion with the creator. As our hearts change our deeds change, we become realigned and open to God's nudgings.
So why does he tell you to be so condescending and deliberately obtuse?
What purpose does this serve. Or is this another one of those "moves in mysterious ways His wonders to perform?"
Yet, you get food but tens of thousands of children do not.
Curious? Don't ya think? Please tell me what's happening with that bit of unfair food distribution your god has seen fit to administer?
In eternity all will be provided for, here and now we are on earth, which is filled with good and bad. If it were perfect here now, we would be in Heaven, not earth. Prayer changes the hearts of people, so that the hungry can be fed and every other malody that exists. My belief is that through prayer we gather the conviction to give even beyond our excess.
and that's a dream!
While you're praying lots of people die, anyway
that is true, lots of people die, including all here in this forum someday. It is again what happens here on earth, but our souls never die, whether we are starving, believer or non=believer or souls are eternal.
It helps change our hearts. But I am moving on now this thread has deteriorated again into debate over the existence of God. I have seen this debate many times here and it goes nowhere, but as always I do appreciate your thoughts !
But, YOUR soul isn't starving to death, is it?
I'll be sure to send a note to all those starving children that you personally have vouched for their eternal souls while you eat to your hearts content and thank your god for your abundance.
"Lots of people die"
Not me.I have found the secret to eternal Life
and I'll tell you what it is
If the price is right...
I really need the money...
All you've done is repeat the same nonsense over again.
Forget about eternity, we are talking about the here and the now in which YOU have food, provided by your god, and thousands of children are starving to death every day.
It seems that your little world is filled with god while other little worlds are filled with bad. Your world is perfect in its abundancy of food while other worlds suffer.
And no, no amount of praying has changed anyones hearts. You Christians have been praying for centuries and still these children starve to death.
It is not God's fault that humans can't figure out how to A. stop having more children than they ought to, and B. share the abundance of food in the world.
Moreover, whether you believe in God or not, it's unbecoming of a civilized person to presume to know anything about the being I (or anyone else) calls God, nor my (or anyone else's) prayers to that entity.
Finally, if one is dealing with a cosmic being (which you obviously aren't), one must attempt to consider cosmic values. Ultimately, a human lifetime of suffering in the flesh is an infinitesimal moment in the infinity that is the lifetime of the spirit. The suffering of the human race can be considered a cleansing tincture...or perhaps the purifying fire--like that in an alchemist's lab, that clarifies a thick murky liquid: The process of creation is not yet finished, and the middle part of the process looks a lot different from the finished product.
It's the fault of theists who make the claims for self-indulgence while others die.
But, if a god created everything and then said "Go forth and multiply" then that god should take some responsibility for the birth rate and the abundance of food, don't ya think?
No, it's unbecoming of those who claim prayer works. "Civilized" people wouldn't make such nasty claims.
Is that like being stoned on acid?
Ah yes, another hypocrite justifying their gods in light of their abundance and to the despair of thousands who die daily. You truly sicken me.
Hindu philosophy looks at enlightenment and moksha as the stage where rebirth stops and so he or his soul doesn't come back to this painful existence or hell but resides with the Light or god.
Similarly Christianity , Sufism ,Buddhism all do
Yes, it's truly amazing, the wonders of religions and the all powerful gods that can create universes with a flick of the wrist but can't scratch up enough grub to feed starving children.
When will god say, "Enough Multiplying, already! Sheeesh! Souls don't grow on trees, ya know!"
Does time rule the creator? Ar souls timeless? Death is a passage to another dimension.
Magic has no boundaries, hence it rules all, so time is just another part of the reality ruled by your magic.
Here's a better question, why have you stopped thinking?
Souls haven't been shown to exist.
Puerile deluded claptrap.
Our oils may be used again as fossil fuel in the near future. Once we die our bones possibly breaks with time. Our souls goes either up or down. I'm going up. No doubt about it.
Not sure about our blood.
I have a better question…why is it… that in most or all religious discussions one easily recognizes and realizes the secular side as being “learned” and the religious side as being “unlearned”? just seems to be a pattern.
Prayer is the state of being open to reveal your soul to God. Praying can be a conversation also, where we praise and petition God for stregnth, direction or to interceed for others.
To live a prayer is to live in a nonstop state of communing with God. Just my opinion, Holly
So, do you pray for starving children to have food? Is it working? No? Why not?
My praying bothers you apparently. I cannot answer why God allows the suffering He does, as I have stated many times over.
Perhaps you should help feed the starving children, too. We all need to help.
There are a great deal of potential answers as to why your god does nothing. Hence, your praying to him for whatever irrelevancies one can imagine are most certainly a bother to anyone who must hear all about the wonderful things your god allegedly does when he actually does nothing at all. See?
Yes, I'll feed the starving children, you do nothing and pray for your own needs. Very helpful, Holly.
And if I ever hear of your god answering one of your prayers while those same children starve to death, I'll be sure to jump in and remind you.
You dear person, have some very serious issues. How sad you are so disturbed that I pray. How amazing that you think I do nothing to help the hungry in the world - only shows how misguided you truly are.
I doubt you are privy to my prayers and what they contain. But you Q are one sick puppy. I have cancer and pray for my needs as well as others. Is there some sick perversion you have in hounding the majority of my posts and belittling me?
Fortunately I am a very prayerful woman, and for your soul I will pray harder.
You can call this post of mine a typical angry christian response, but it is a reaction to needling and harassing from a vile and mean spirited individual. No need to post how badly I represent christianity - God knows I am human.
Holly you always have my support and prayers !!
With people who pray for their own selfish needs, glory to their gods and so on, while tens of GODS children starve to death each day? Yup, it is a serious issue.
Please don't bother, I have no interest in wishful thinking and delusion. Pray for those starving children instead and see if your god does something. He most likely will do nothing to answer that prayer.
I call it hypocrisy.
Vile and mean spirited? By pointing out your hypocrisy? Good one.
It seems that you can't point out the obvious contradictions in a religionist's ideas without them taking it as a personal attack.
I understand why, though. Theists have taken an ideology, such as the religion they follow, and have made it part of their bodies, as if the ideology were their arms and legs. Clearly, the religion is built that way so as to remain something that can't be questioned.
Look at Islam, it's even worse. People get knifed in the back on the street for simply drawing a cartoon because Islam has forbidden images of Muhammad. Is it ridiculous? Absolutely.
Is it a built in safeguard for Muslims? You bet. And, they can retalitate in violence because Islam tells them to do so.
Theists have no answer for this faith-destroying disparity, yet they go right on praying.
My answer to the question, "What is prayer?":
Prayer is when someone gets on his knees, and talks to the ceiling! Fascinating!!!
I heard once that Prayer is talking to God and Meditation is listening for the answers
Prayer is for people who are searching for something greater than themselves for direction and protection, and some to ask others be watched over.
I don't see anything wrong with it if it's genuine, although I do not.
My prayers meaning is "hopefully people will treat me today as I treated them yesterday."
And the tens of thousands of children who starve everyday are not the ones being watched over, are they? Are they searching for "something greater than themselves for direction and protection" or maybe just a morsel of food to carry them to the next day?
Starving is genuine, believe it or not. But, as long as you see nothing wrong with that///
That's not what the starving children are praying for.
Sorry you feel that way, I'm shocked that my opinion or way of thinking has brought out the righteous critic in you. Your true lack of colors are very apparent. Thanks
Wow! Ms Black and White is talking about someones lack of colors.
I'm even more shocked at you for being righteous in your so-called thinking while others suffer.
Your true lack of thinking skills are very apparent.
Yea that is exactly what she stated wasn't it Q? She sees nothng wrong with that.
I see your penchant for putting words in another individual's mouth has not diminished....
The starving children type of question seems to be from those who think of God as a giant vending machine. Prayer is being in spiritual communion with God who acts on people to make them WANT to help other people.
It's a false dichotomy to say atheists feed starving children as opposed to believers who pray. Some of each group do one, neither, or both.
very well stated !! And of course my thoughts exactly.
It is true that the giant vending machine model is silly, to put it mildly.
However, if you are going to define God as (a) all-merciful, (b) capable of intervening at times into human affairs and (c) all-powerful / all-seeing, then it makes no sense literally for him not to save the 27 000 children PER DAY who die of curable, often crazily silly, things, like diarrhea. I mean, 27 000 is a huge hell of a lot... per DAY. Either he is not in fact all-merciful, or he is not all-powerful (or he is not all-seeing -- though this is a bloody big fact not to "see").
In short, it's easy to have a theology that ignores this contradiction when it's not YOUR child.
What you guys don't get is that God works through us. It's not His fault that there are starving kids. You need to look twice at runs the government. They could do something about it. And then all them multi millionares/billionares. They could help. I'm sure with all their money combined, not a single person will ever be starving again. God does bless us, but we don't always do the right thing and help the ones that need it the most.
You have not addressed the specific logical contradiction in the theology I tried to take the pains to spell out.
If you believe in the Bible, God is depicted as intervening in countless instances, the most obvious being the Exodus. So he could do this in the case of the twenty-seven thousand needless child deaths PER DAY, without working through us, as you put it. All dem plagues coming out of the sky were not done "through" us.
Again, I say, if it was your child, then you would be pretty pissed if he just waited for someone else to do it, given he has all that firepower.
God is a giant vending machine, why do people thank god for the food provided them, then?
If prayer has the effect you claim, why do people not help those starving children, the good, upstanding, Christians that they are?
Let's just go over and feed the starving children. There is no prayer needed to do that! Prayer would be redundant.
I like the ideas of Alfred North Whitehead, who suggests that God is part of nature, rather than above, and is not ominpotent.
This would explain how he could "allow" such horrendous suffering as we see today, and have seen throughout history, if he cannot affect all situations anyway. It also explains why some prayers are unanswered (I mean, some prayers are probably unanswered because they are the wrong thing to ask for: Lord give me that great blonde over there... if I were God I'd just roll my eyes ), because, again, maybe he cannot affect all situations.
Anyway, I am not saying I believe this, just throwing it out there as a possibility. Whitehead is no idiot -- he co-wrote Principia Mathematica with Bertrand Russell, which is the one book that has made all of computer science even possible since (so they say)
You forgot to disect my entire response....Come on - take some more pot shots. Maybe why God hasn't healed my terminal cancer even though I have prayed. GO FOR IT BUDDY.
Have you given all you own to feed the hungry? But you want to put down me for not doing enough? If your non belief is so perfect compared to my faith and prayers - show me the way.
Q - I am putting you on every prayer chain I know of - obviously your dark heart is in grave need of prayer. Something is seriously wrong in your heart and mind.
You sit behind your computer screen and belittle and harass me as I do what I can to help others while I am battling terminal cancer. Do you feel better for it?
Praying for you Q, Holly
Why should he heal you? He gave you cancer, didn't he?
Simple, don't feed us all the bs about prayer.
Is that because I lack the god delusions you hold and cannot explain the discrepancies and contradictions held by your god delusions?
I have done no such thing and that it is most certainly not very fair of you to accuse me of such a thing.
Really? So, now you've resorted to lying. Sad, indeed.
Like I said, lots of prayer to reach someone so intent to be mean spirited. God bless you Q, I m sure there is a divine reason for all of this - even you. Holly
And another thing... Did man's activity create malaria? To say all of the world's evils are caused by man turning away from God makes no sense. We had smallpox for millenia, until just a couple of decades ago -- if there was ever proof for my case (stated above), then smallpox was it...
Prayer is a time to talk to our Lord one on one. To place anything that has been bothering us at his feet to thank him for everything he has blessed us with. Its a way to express our deepest love for him. Its comforting to know that whenever I need to talk I can always go before the Lord and he is there listening. The power of prayer is amazing.
Well, he appears to have overblessed you and underblessed thousands of starving children. What does your one on one with god have to say about that?
So, you love him because he allows thousands of children to starve to death every day or because he feeds you?
Yes, it keeps you happy and secure in blissful ignorance while children starve to death each day.
You must be very proud.
Sorry it has taken so long for a reply but I had to go back and erase my original comment I was going to send to save my self from being kicked out.
anyways, Do not blame God for all the bad stuff that happens. Maybe the government who rules these nations that have all the starving children should take a little more responsibility, dont you think. All children belong to God. I sure hope that you are lending out your helping hand to these kids considering your comments.
I can only blame gods for bad stuff when people make claims that god created everything. However, in this thread, I'm merely pointing out the obvious contradiction of those who claim that prayer actually works.
Perhaps, but maybe the leaders of those governments are doing little more than praying to their gods for help, which is the point of this thread and the point of who exactly should be acting responsibly, or if not at the very least, acting.
Can you explain then why he allows thousands of his children, many that are infants, to starve to death every day while the prayers of billions wishing for guidance, protection and a happy life get answered?
Maybe we should have an international prayer day in which all of humanity (including the atheists) get down on their knees and in one great big group prayer, ask god if he could offer up just a little more guidance, protection, a happy life, and most importantly, a bit of food to get them through the next day.
I sure hope people don't expect me to believe that they're prayers get answered or their gods even listen to them if atrocities are occurring elsewhere.
I wrote a hub on this topic recently. A quick search should bring it up if you want to read my progress in answering a similar question.
I guess I should post a pic of the evolutionary monkey graph every time mark is around. haha.
Yes folks, it does appear as if I'm beating a dead horse. But, if you continue to make claims of prayer working or the power of prayer, try and remember that prayer isn't working for a lot of other folks that you conveniently forget, despite their beliefs in the very same god as you.
It's not a matter of belief, but a matter of integrity. Show some.
If all these children survive, who will care for them? Do you think no one should ever die?
You are being totally obscene -- and you would never say that if it were 27,000 children dying in the West every day.
It is about SUFFERING. These children don't just keel over one day, they die of excruciating ailments...
Yes, I WOULD say it if it were happening in the west. They do. Perhaps not starvation but from abortion, abuse, violence. It's not meant to be heartless but to say that if anyone ever prays they are bad, evil, and neglectful is nonsense.
Then, you or your children should be happy to take any one of their places, yes?
I don't know why some die horrifically, suffer so much. When one of my boys was two, I was taken aside into the little room in the hospital where they tell you there's no more hope, nothing more to be done. But my mother-in-law started a prayer chain and started praying for him; fifteen minutes later the doctors unhooked him and he was playing and fine. We took him home, the doctors just stood around with dropped jaws.
But I never understood why it happened that way when the other family there didn't have their situation turn out the same way.
I think prayer can work, despite the fact that I do not believe in any of the "monotheistic religions" (Christianity, Judaism, Islam). Don't ask me to explain it, though..., but I have heard of cases like yours before, and to say it is just coincidence is just silly
I must remember to send a note to Webster asking they delete the word "coincidence" from their Lexicons.
Of course, there are the cases where people started "prayer chains" and the person died anyways.
Oh well, never mind.
"Prayer works" is a statement I have trouble with; I think that's where some misunderstanding comes from. It's not a method to get things done. But in so many situations, it seems that way, like mine with my son.
Then maybe I am betraying in part where perhaps I actually stand, by using that phrase...... ( )
I'm often reminded of a similar story where a women was unearthed from a pile of rubble where she spent several days calling out to rescuers. Once out, she exclaimed that is was Jesus that saved her as she looked out amongst the several thousand dead.
Yes, I've heard people thank God for a bad cut healing in just a few days because of God's intervention. Kind of weird unless you're referring to the way our bodies are "miraculous" in their healing powers.
That speaks volumes about religion!
How disgusting she must seem to the families of the dead who were not as "christian" as she was!
Q, I wish no one ever suffered. No one ever even though it supposedly is the 'way to build character'. I understand your point about "just praying" but is that really what the people you know do? If everyone is doing the same amount of helping, why would praying first and throughout be bad?
Prayer to me has been communing with something/someone beyond my ability to conceive of that made me feel and change in ways I don't feel and want to change on my own. Caring about others that I normally detested, giving away food and money that I couldn't afford to, spending time with people I didn't like because they needed the help and it had nothing to do with me.
Prayer is for the benefit of the one praying and others that they will interact with.
Prayer is asking god for his favour in accomplishing our desire
Prayer does nothing except help with the delusion that a god gives a flying F about any of it!
Your god would answer prayer for a "believer", but let little children die horrible deaths. Not even man is that low!
Your god and your prayer are out of a hateful spite filled book written by a bunch of controlling sick old men, which you and others believe out of fear from early indoctrination. No mystery there. .
Do they really have a choice? The Israelites were told to make their choice because they had already been called, God had already revealed himself to them.
For others it's different. What about no man can come to God unless/until he draws them? Even those who grew up knowing about God, Jesus, all that, from infancy don't know the same way until God reveals himself to them. I just don't see how we can expect anyone to think God is anything but a nonsensical delusion until God does the work.
Prayer is a totally different thing after that.
I have terminal cancer and am not expected to survive it. Most of my "life" now is online - it is hard to get out of the house most days.
When I posted my response to the thread about what prayer is to me, Q became quite rude about it. Read it yourself.
What is prayer.
Prayer as I see it is a two way connection. When prayer is one way: ie telling G-d what you feel,want, etc. it will be hard to hear Him. Hearing and following up on what He tells you is a very important part of prayer. If you want a more extended answer:please write
Prayer to me is putting your wants, desires, needs, thoughts, and ideas out there. Out loud. So you can hear them. It helps you acknowledge what is important in life (or maybe what isn't).
Yeah kinda. Its like getting a certain energy out in hopes that the universe will recognize it.
Prayer is the free will choice of the soul to admit it does not have as much power to live life without the acceptance of the power from the universe/God each day.
There are many things that a soul needs to pray for, things unique to each individual. Prayer is one form of this communion with the infinite power from the universe/God.
Prayer is definitely a form of meditation. When you pray, you are not paying attention to the material world, meaning you are not focused on things you want in life. Instead of focusing outward as everybody does with their life, you are actually focusing inward. You are coming more in touch with your soul on the inside, and finding out who you really are beyond your everyday life. The more you pray, the more you know about yourself, and will know how to replenish YOUR mind, body, and soul outside of yourself. If you go into deeper spiritual meditation, that's when you will find more answers of YOUR purpose in life. Yes it seems selfish, but if you focus on yourself first and replenish your needs then you will know how to help replenish other people's needs. And also you will enjoy life with more bliss, and worry less about the material world, and more on the spiritual world. If you don't understand feel free to ask questions.
Does god murder children so you can replenish your needs?
This creator or god has made you and these chidren , dont you think he knows best,when to get them here and when to take them?
What makes you think death is such a bad thing?
Let him take you and your children instead and then ask if he knows best.
Most likely, he is thoroughly entertaining himself by creating and killing children every day. What purpose for us does this daily event have?
What makes you think killing thousands of children every day is a good thing?
He already took me and it was the best thing that has happened to me.Paradise
Do you know what death is?
So, you're dead now?
The end of life, of course, and party time for all the little wormies.
I am enlightened its more like a dead man walking ,a different aliveness.
So you dont know what happens on death? Why get so mad?
Enlightened, kinda like a dim bulb? Dead men don't walk, fyi.
I already told you, did you not read my post?
I'm not getting mad, it just gets very frustrating when people make extraordinary claims, like knowing a new kind of light exists, but they can't comment on anything past the initial claim.
In other words, I get sick and tired of the intellectually dishonest.
All prophets and religions speak of a spiritual light and neither were they or me are intellectally dishonest.Look at my profile please.
On a religiousforum expect to hearabout the Light.
5 stars smilies goes to (Q) for
Making me laugh so hard with his comments!
You rock Miss T. Love the new avatar. Bold and inspirational.
If the god of that religion looks anything like your avatar, I'm in!
spiritual enlightenment is not religion. It is an important aspect in life. If you are not happy with who YOU are, then you are not happy. If you are completely confident with yourself, have no insecurities, know the difference between right and wrong, always flow a positive energy, then you are Enlightened in yourself. Of course you don't need to pray or meditate to get to this state, but it's highly recommended. Peace Love Truth Positivity
Looking at your avatar confirms I'm not either. But hey, we can worship a living goddess, can't we?
I pass !
Don't worship me! I don't have time to waste standing on a pedestal !
that would be missing out in life, just like prophets as mohit do !
Most atheists or non believers are well accustomed to allowing others their beliefs all day long while being denied their own.
I've really no problem-- If atheism is what a person seems to be led to--if that makes the most sense to them --in 'allowing' (poor choice of words, but you get what I am saying) anyone that belief. It absolutely is about free thought and one's own personal discovery to me.
And I can't say that in life I've seen atheists denied their beliefs. I'd actually say that the mainstream culture, at least in America, is secular. This is my first exposure, really, on these boards to this kind of odd black/white dichotomy. Of course, the crowd I associate with is apt to laugh at religious hucksterism and fundamentalists, too. Perhaps that makes a difference.
And anyway, earnest, that little blue flower thing you keep posting seems really indicative of your personality, lol. Who could 'fight' with that? I smile whenever I see it.
Cetainly not! I was born into a Christian society as many of us are, and we are surrounded daily by religious symbols.
I hardly notice it, but it is still true. In America you can't even get elected without espousing a religious belief. Maybe I would feel martyred in your society, I hope I never have to find out.
talking to something in private that is bigger than yourself
It's when you're talking to me so loudly that I can't hear my Sony Walkman!
Prayer is formalized hope
Prayer is kinda like the same thing as when your 6 year old son/daughter comes up to ya; sits in your lap, and wants to talk to ya about something.
When we "Pray" that's kinda what it is suposed to be like!
Or we can bake cookies, put um on a silver platter and bring um up within 20 feet from where he is sittin put them down, back up and say,... Can I ask ya sumthing ????
I wanna sit in gram Pa's lap and talk to him.
Hay Earnist how ya doin? You are right!
and you win a nickle! You might not have been the first one to think it but you said it first. HE's (me) crazy
An internal dialog with the self, you will like and appreciate it.
Everyone does believers and non believers.Some take this very seriously,at least I do.Being a poet I had to communicate with the self to co create, merge totally.
I would say it depends on the prayer, what is one asking?
"give me courage to do whats right" my prayer to god, I am going to face opposition for my philosophy all my life is something I know have faced it for more than ten years. .
Then prayer can be associated with begging something from god, the inner or cosmic self.
Then prayer can be demanding from the cosmos.
Is that defined by each and every individually, usually differently and privately.
Death just needs a bit of genetic adjustment. Coming to a medical centre near you!..... as soon as will fix the human condition, lets say 200 years?
Prayer is a form of communication with Jesus Christ. I believe in the power of prayer.
Here is a simple way that might help some of you begin your day and pray to God. Prayer is not hard and it adds a richness and meaning to our daily lives.
When you wake up in the morning learn to greet the day with a simple "Thank You Lord, then just try to give him 10-15 minutes of your time just for you and the Lord together. Then spend the next 5 minutes in meditation, which in this time you should share with him your problems, your difficulties, even your desires. Tell him about your secret fears and things that are giving you the most trouble. Then in the last 5 minutes, turn your thoughts outward asking him to watchover family and friends.
Finally, praise the Lord! Give Him thanks, and remember that he is with you, In you, and for you.
Now you can have a good day. God Bless BB
When thousands of children who pray to god for food but die every day of starvation, what richness and meaning to their very short lives do their prayers bring beyond a small morsel of food?
When the problems of starvation, pestilence and abject poverty are upon you, taking the time to thank your god for your lack of abundance 10-15 minutes each day can seem like a lifetime... and in some cases, it is a lifetime.
Their fears are the disproportionate abundance YOU enjoy daily that your god saw fit not to share with them.
In that last 5 minutes and each 5 minute time frame thereafter, at least 60 children die of starvation. Perhaps, you may want to include them in your prayers next time and see if your god will watch over them.
Yes, YOU and only YOU. How very fortunate you are to have such a loving and generous god. Thank him for your over-abundance and self-indulgence, too.
I'll be sure to pass on your advice to those much less fortunate with receiving gods abundance, I'm sure they'll appreciate your kind words, notwithstanding.
It's just asking to God, in JESUS name and in the God's will:
"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him" (Matthew 6:5-8).
"To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 'Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: "God, I thank you that I am not like other men-robbers, evildoers, adulterers-or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get." But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, "God, have mercy on me, a sinner. I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted"'" (Luke 18:9-14).
"'Have faith in God,' Jesus answered. 'I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, "Go, throw yourself into the sea," and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins'" (Mark 11:22-25).
"And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it" (John 14:13-14).
I had a friend once that would call me every day.
He wanted to do all of the talking. Telling me about all of his problems. Asking me what he should do??? But he would never stop talking long enough for me to tell him what I thought about his question.
I started screening my calls and stopped answering the phone when he was on the other end.
Go figure ???
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