Jesus Never says that he is the son of the God!!

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  1. s.rezvi profile image60
    s.rezviposted 12 years ago

    then y do people call him so?
    he was a messenger of God towards people to show them the right path and teach them the way of living.

    Jesus himself worship only One God and so did he preaches !!

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    1. Ruce Otter profile image61
      Ruce Otterposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I guess people call him so because the Bible is filled with verses where Christ speaks of as his father.

      However, these people fail to take into consideration that when Christ was speaking to others about God, he spoke of God as being their father:

      Matthew 6:1 “Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.

      2 “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

      5 “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. 6 But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

      7 “And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

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      1. profile image0
        Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        You're right. God the Father, and the son Yahshua.

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      2. thisisoli profile image73
        thisisoliposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Those quotes never refer to God as his father, but everyone elses father, if you are going to quote references at least get the right ones tongue

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        1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
          ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          yes AVINU how G-d was called by everyone.  the Aba, the OX, the spirit, the seminal force that fertilized the Ima, the shekina which represents all possibilities.

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          1. Randy Godwin profile image59
            Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            And let us not forget "The cow that jumped over the moon."

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            1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
              ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              yes, that is where the expression is from lol

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              1. Randy Godwin profile image59
                Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Hey diddle! Diddle!

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                1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
                  ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  The cat and the fiddle, the cow jumped over the moon.
                  the little dog laughed to see such a sport and the dish ran away with the spoon.

                  (It's about eloping)lol

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                  1. Randy Godwin profile image59
                    Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    No!  I never dreampt.......!  You are so ......so!

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          2. profile image0
            Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I thought you said you are a very learned Kabbalist
            How are you connecting Ox to  God and Spirit being the same?
            The Hebrew Aleph means many things. The association of the Aleph is to Oxen but not Ox.
            The Aleph written א means A.
            The written out Aleph אלף means Thousand (Ps 144:13 only)
            The  אלף also means to learn or teach (Prov 22:25, Job 15:5, 33:33, 35:11)
            Derivation aleph means oxen

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            1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
              ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              A learned Kabbalist? Why would I make that hilarious claim? It will only prove I know nothing about Kabbalah and the cultures surrounding it. I don't even use that word. You're the one assigning the word Kabbalist to me. You even call yourself a Kabbalist.

              I am not a Kabbalist. I am a student of the Kabbalah, and so are you. A Kabbalist is a Rav. A Rebbe. Do you know what that is? A Rebbe is like a pope or a saint. One who has devoted his entire life in the study and mastery of certain works of masters like LURIA.

              Those are Kabbalists. An an amateur astronomer does not make a astrophysicist Even if he can spot a meteor crashing down on jupiter ahead of everybody else. You do need a degree, and followers who are rabbis, who teach your version of the kabbalah to the Jewish people.  I'm not a even a Rabbi. I'm not even  a man. So, with that, it is completely invented memory to say I ever claimed to be Kabbalist.

              If you are not aware of the connection of the sitting down of the essence of Hashem to form Keter which attributed to alef, the ox, don't blame me. Blame your non-existent mentor.

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              1. profile image0
                Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                **********************************************
                ROFLOL
                See I know how to use Hubpages and find old posts
                You said you are intimate with the Kabbalah, that means a Kabbalist

                http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/39650?p … post946335
                Me to you
                    "Now, I can only assume that your knowledge of the Kabbalah is surface with no deep understanding.. just words you've read and quote. Like writing Spanish by using a translator and not knowing what each word is".


                Your Response
                "I do know it intimately"
                ************************************************
                By the Way my MENTOR taught me the Jewish Tradition.

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                1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
                  ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  my dear, I advise you to try describing yourself and me as a kabbalist in chassidic groups. see the kind of reaction you'll get.

                  a Kabbalist is a Rebbe. Ok. You can posture all you want. I'm not going to join you in that delusion.

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                  1. profile image0
                    Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    LOL

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                  2. tantrum profile image60
                    tantrumposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    A Kabbalist is not a Rebbe.
                    A Rebbe is a master or mentor,of the Hasidic Jewish movement.
                    Hasidims can be Kakkbalist, but not all Kabbalist are Hasidim

                    Kabbalah is a philosophy, a way of life.

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                2. ceciliabeltran profile image64
                  ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  oh and by the way...you do know what I'm talking about right? You do not know the lowering of G-d's essence to form keter, no? you want to focus on petty things. fine. petty petty petty.

                  never said I was a kabbalist. knowing kabbalah intimately does not mean you're a kabbalist. other people give you that title, Saint Deborah. Or Pope Deborah. lol Oh, Kabbalist Deborah.

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                  1. profile image0
                    Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    *******************************************
                    Being a Rabbi (Said Rab-Bee) does not make you a Kabbalist. A Rabbi is a Teacher, a Leader.

                    Likewise being a Kabbalist does not make you a Rabbi.

                    A Kabbalist lives,follows, and practices Kabbalah.

                    They practice all branches of Kabbalah except the Kabbalists who are superstitious.

                    You know nothing about me or my life. I write hubs and you think you know me. You know very little about Kabbalah but you preach what is right and wrong with it. I am very proud of who I am. You don't have to say "you know what I mean" I'm not using anything wrong, and I won't change for you. Who are you to me?

                    You write hubs about Kabbalah, teaching a little of it, as much as you know. Sharing knowledge is teaching.

                    You get mad when you are found out. Want me to find more of your posts?

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    2. nikki1 profile image59
      nikki1posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Yea, all throughout the Bible. He called on his father all the time guidance and strength. He practiced random act of kindness in his town all the time.

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    3. oceansnsunsets profile image88
      oceansnsunsetsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      God said so, out of heaven, when Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist, at Jesus' request. 
      "this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." and The Holy Spirit alighted on Him like a dove.  One of the times we the trinity all mentioned together.  Usually we just see them working independently.

      Jesus refers to him as Father as well, and how they are one.  He doesn't refer to God as Father lie a Pope or a Priest either. 

      He speaks of those that will deny Him, and how his Father will deny them.

      "In my Father's house are many mansions, if it were not so I would have told you."  He was in tight with God, yet always humble and pointing more to his Father than himself.  "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do." 

      "Abba.... Daddy, why have you forsaken me", while on the cross, and on and on. That is what comes to mind for now. Forgive if these have been mentioned already.

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    4. profile image56
      exorterposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Jesus said when you see me you see the father

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      1. Jerami profile image57
        Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Woke up and saw a light on, twas the momitor and this caught my eye.  Don't know why? it just came to mind and I don't know that it makes any difference. 
                      But
           Each time Jesus says this does he says "you have seen THE father" or "My father?"  I'm goina have to check that out???

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        1. Jerami profile image57
          Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Never mind Think I saw the answer above.
              should never wake up in middle of night and say anything

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    5. profile image0
      Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      He did say he is the son of God. He was considered though because he is the only person that has ever been so righteous. He had complete trust in God and power
      He was not called God's son until his baptism. He had made it all those years loving God (and people)

      Yahshua is not God. God doesn't turn to flesh and in front of everyone declare he is his son in who he is well pleased

      He's not a man that he should lie nor the son of man that he should repent
      That he is God started through false doctrine

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      1. Disappearinghead profile image60
        Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Here you go Deborah

        1 John 2:22
        Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son.

        1 John 4:3
        but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

        2 John 1:7
        Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

        We can't pick and choose which scriptures to believe. It's all or nothing.

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        1. profile image0
          Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          *************************************************
          Yahshua is the Messiah.
          What am I picking and Choosing? The verses you posted agree.
          Those verses arn't saying Yahshua is God.

          Yahshua is not God.

          I can choose all the words He said.

          What Yahshua Said:
          John 14:28
          Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

          John 8:28
          Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me , I speak these things.

          John 8:54
          Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me;  of whom ye say, that he is your God:

          What God said:
          Matthew 3:17
          And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased

          Matthew 17:5
          While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

          Matthew 16:15
          15. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
          16. And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God
          17. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

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          1. Disappearinghead profile image60
            Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Great. You acknowleged the divinty of Christ then. If the Father is God, then the Son has the nature of God, that is divine. Jesus is not just some man that came to realise He was somehow simply adopted by God.

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            1. profile image50
              paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Hi friend  Disappearinghead

              The Creator-God Allah YHWH needs no-one to adopt as son; when did he need and why to adopt one. Moses was far superior to Jesus in character and teachings; if He would have adopted then Moses or Abraham were on the better merit.

              Thanks

              I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

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              1. mohitmisra profile image60
                mohitmisraposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                The Prophets are equal there is no greater or lesser prophet.
                In fact all humans are equal for god, they are all his sons.

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              2. Disappearinghead profile image60
                Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Clearly Paar you continue to set yourself up as an expert on biblical topics yet you do not understand them.

                God gave the law to Israel as a set of rules to live by until such a time as He sent His Son to fullfill the law. So who is greater, the one to passes on the law, or the one who fullfils it?

                As for adoption, those that follow Christ are adopted as sons.

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                1. profile image0
                  Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Not so, the law is not done away with
                  Only Paul taught that

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                  1. Disappearinghead profile image60
                    Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    But that's from your viewpoint that Paul is not to be believed.

                    Jesus fullfilled the law, therefore those that follow Christ need not follow the law lettr by letter. By following Christ and being filled with god's spirit, we are covered by grace and in that grace we know that He will change us according to His timetable. By following Christ we will naturaly follw the spirit of the law.

                    The law is in place for the Jews, do you expect the gentile to be submitted to the law? When the subject of gentile believers following the law came up in Acts, Peter stood up and told the chuch that the law which they struggled with should not also be put upon the gentiles too. Four simple commands were given to the gentles instead. So if Peter has "done away with the law" for the gentles, then why do you complain that Paul has "done away with the law"?

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            2. profile image0
              Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              We are all created in the image of God.
              But we have to overcome

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      2. profile image56
        exorterposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        god manifested in the flesh

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      3. profile image56
        exorterposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        he shall be called jehova,[god with us]

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    6. Disappearinghead profile image60
      Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      There is a reason the world and its religions are continually trying to sow doubt that Jesus is the Son of God.

      If Christ is not the Son of God, His death means nothing, and we are still in our sin. Without this, we may as well all pack up and go home. Only a divine nature can bring any value to His death. If Jesus was just another man, then He can do nothing for us except give us some nice principles to live by.

      But praise God, He is who He is, and the free gift of salvation is offered to all.

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      1. Mark Knowles profile image58
        Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Nonsense. LOL

        You Christians have to cause a fight don't you? My way or the highway and anyone who does not agree is "trying to sow doubt."

        Your religion will always cause wars, ill will and hatred because of this.

        Sad. sad

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        1. aguasilver profile image68
          aguasilverposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Hi Mark,

          Surely it's the folk who want to cast doubt that are trying to cause a problem by contending?

          I remember that before I came to meet Christ and came to faith, I had met with many 'Christians' who were trying to evangelize me, and my answer was 'whatever' because their faith meant nothing to me.

          So why should I have, or any other unbeliever, be challenged just because someone believed what I did not?

          If you believe that Christians are in error and that there is no God to answer to, why bother with us.... any believer who has experienced the power of the Holy Spirit will never renounce Christ.

          It seems to me that it is the reaction of unbelievers which causes strife! - just ignore us, we won't go away, but you don't have to listen.

          Happy smile

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          1. Mark Knowles profile image58
            Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Hi John,

            Once again - you prove that you do not live by the rules you tell everyone else they should be living by.

            Re-action being the operative word. You provoke a reaction. No action, no reaction. Simple physics. Why don't you just stop spouting rules that you do not live by instead?

            Tell you what - you guys never ever bring the subject up ever again and I will not speak against your hypocrisy and war mongering. Deal? wink

            No one is casting doubt John. Your invisible Sky Daddy does not exist. You yourself do not live by the rules you claim we should all follow. What doubt is there here? None. Pretty clear cut actually.

            I know you would prefer it if no one spoke out against your hatred of unbelievers, gays, muslims and any number of other people, but - I will not.

            Sorry you are unable to see that it is you causing the conflict. You John. You. You stop evangelizing and telling others what to do while not doing so yourself - I stop speaking against your hypocrisy. Simple. smile

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            1. aguasilver profile image68
              aguasilverposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Mark, I have posted 1,132 posts in the Christian forums, whereas you seem to have posted 14,000 or so..... who's guilty of bring it up and being contentious, looks like you from my position.

              The day you can accuse me of hypocrisy would be the day I trolled around the atheist forums (do they exist, even, what would they have to discuss?) challenging your lack of beliefs.

              Meanwhile you haunt the believers comments like a lost soul seeking some solace from wailing in the dark

              Fortunately I have a life (and eternal one) so I get little chance to be bothered by your inane commentary, and have even less inclination to respond, except where you are clearly just trying to cause dissension, or picking on a young believer who may not be aware of your vitriolic hatred of Christ.

              My response to you was due to your non contextual and uncalled for attack on Disappearingheads post.

              BTW I have no hatred for anyone, not homosexuals, nor unbelievers, not anyone actually.

              I do feel sorrow about the choices some folk make, but hey! it's their life, so stop trying to 'spin' me into being Torquemada.

              John

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      2. profile image50
        paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Hi friend Disappearinghead

        There is no reason to sow any seeds of doubt; Jesus was never a son of god in literal terms. He himself explained the term to be symbolic:

        John 8:41-45

        41 You do the works of your father. They said therefore to him: We are not born of fornication: we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus therefore said to them: If God were your Father, you would indeed love me. For from God I proceeded, and came; for I came not of myself, but he sent me: 43 Why do you not know my speech? Because you cannot hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and he stood not in the truth; because truth is not in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof. 45 But if I say the truth, you believe me not.

        So Jesus himself "sowed the seed to start with"; as he was neither a god nor a son of god.

        It is only Paul's and Church's doing against the teachings of Jesus and Mary.

        Thanks

        I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

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        1. aguasilver profile image68
          aguasilverposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          John 8:41-45 is clearly referring to the fact that the Pharisees did not recognize Christ as the Son of God because they were the spawn of Satan, a factor I would advice any antichrist to take into consideration.

          John

          A contented believer

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          1. profile image50
            paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Paul is dead who changed the teaching of Jesus and invented and imported others from pagans; he was the Anti-Christ in this sense.

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            1. aguasilver profile image68
              aguasilverposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              http://jonesthepipe.co.uk/images/dripping_tap.jpg

              Same old, same old....

              Bored but contented believer...

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              1. profile image50
                paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                But that is a fact. I will express my faith as many time as you will express yours

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                1. aguasilver profile image68
                  aguasilverposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Actually you seem to be expressing your LACK of faith, rather than your faith....

                  Do you have any 100% faith that your god Allah will rescue you?

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                  1. profile image50
                    paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Hi friend aguasilver

                    I said others could express their faith freely with good argumetns.

                    One would be rescued with the grace of creator-God Allah YHWH only; Jesus can't save one on his own for sure; ever Moses who was far superior in spiritual status than Jesus, cannot save one. Jesus and Moses are themselves waiting to be saved with the grace of the Creator-God Allah YHWH.

                    Thanks

                    I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

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              2. profile image0
                Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Paul was Anti-Christ
                You have to read the meaning of the Bible not just the words
                that's having "ears to hear what the Spirit is saying"

                The problem is that no one reads and studies the prophecies in the Old Testament to see what was fulfilled in the N.T.

                The New Testament writings don't take the place of the old, they add to it. Compliment it.

                You need to start eating meat and stop drinking milk.

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      3. profile image0
        Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        ___________________________________________________________
        Just the opposite.
        He came to show us The Kingdom of God is within a Man.

        He showed us we are the Temples of God. Not Temples made with hands. The indwelling of God. Yahshua lived his life as an example.

        He taught that even in the flesh we can become holy and righteous by living as he lived. He didn't just tell us he showed us.

        He showed us how to make our temple a place for God to reign and transform us.

        Yahshua's body was raised too not just his spirit.
        He told Thomas to thrust his hand in his wound.

        When he was resurrected and went back to the disciples he taught them more. He showed them his body was also raised. He ate and drank with them
        Just a spirit can't do that.

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        1. profile image50
          paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Hi friends

          Jesus never died on the cross in the first place; he was only injured; he was given treatment in the tomb; and that is why Thomas could put his fingers in his wounds.

          That does not prove that he was raised; he was neither raised in body nor in spirit.

          Thanks

          I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

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          1. profile image0
            Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I've told you don't believe you.
            Stop saying it to ME. God has shown ME different

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    7. mohitmisra profile image60
      mohitmisraposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      "Me and my father are One " Jesus

      "I tell ye you are all gods" Jesus the path he showed was towards meditation so one can understand God and his relationship with god.
      Every human is a son or daughter of god.

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      1. profile image50
        paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Not literally but symbolically; yes, I agree with you

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        1. mohitmisra profile image60
          mohitmisraposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Literally as well, all is god.

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          1. profile image50
            paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I disagree with you here.

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            1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
              ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              if the only thing you can agree with is mohammad, then you don't exist. you are only a shadow of a long dead prophet who wanted to empower the future generation to be free of other people's notion of religion. Mohammed educated the nomadic desert people to worship a notion of a one G-d instead of material idols. You and your generation have turned Mohammed into an idol himself.

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              1. profile image50
                paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                I disagree with you as it not correct

                Muhammad was a model for the whole world in ethical, moral and spiritual realm; he was Seal of the Prophets; all prophets get certification of their Prophet-hood Messenger-ship in the character and teachings of Muhammad.

                Thanks

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                1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
                  ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  do not turn him into an idol, use his example as a guide how to live your life. He is a prophet. He is not G-d.

                  and what message are you sending out? do you embody his message of peace?

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                  1. mohitmisra profile image60
                    mohitmisraposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    well said ceciliabeltran.

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            2. mohitmisra profile image60
              mohitmisraposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              I am enlightened you are not get enlightened and you will agree once you know god for yourself and not by reading books. smile

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    8. profile image0
      eternaltreasuresposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      What is your basis of saying that Jesus Never says he is the Son of God?

      He is the Son of God.  He said this on:

      Mat 26:63  But Jesus remained silent. And the high priest said to him, "I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God."
      Mat 26:64  Jesus said to him, "You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven."

      Mat 27:43  He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him. For he said, 'I am the Son of God.'"

      Luk 22:70  So they all said, "Are you the Son of God, then?" And he said to them, "You say that I am."
      Luk 22:71  Then they said, "What further testimony do we need? We have heard it ourselves from his own lips."

      Joh 10:36  do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?
      Joh 10:37  If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me;
      Joh 10:38  but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father."

      --------------
      there are so many more Bible verses to prove that Jesus is the Son of God. I hope you are enlightened.

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    9. A friend indeed profile image59
      A friend indeedposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Jesus never needed to verify Himself as the Son of Man, he knew he is, if The Holy Spirit would reveal to you the meaning of the fall of Adam, and how Jesus has become the atoning sacrifice for the sins of all mankind, you will know that Jesus is The Son of Man, He is the perfect lamb of God born without sin, to a virgin. For more detailed information the mother whom Jesus was born to must be a virgin, and also in line with the promises to King David she had to be born from his genealogical line. Jesus Christ is The One and Only Son of God.

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    10. profile image56
      exorterposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      god manifested in the flesh
      god manifests himself as the son, father and holy ghost
      god can be anything he wants to be

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      1. profile image50
        paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Hi friend exorter

        With all courtesy and civilty I would say:

        The Creator-God Allah YHWH is exalted; He is  and was never flesh; He is not and never was son,daughter or wife; He is and never was any holy ghost; nor He needs to be one. It is only a deception created by cunning Paul and nothing more:

        [112:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
        [112:2] Say, ‘He is Allah, the One;
        [112:3] ‘Allah, the Independent and Besought of all.
        [112:4] ‘He begets not, nor is He begotten;
        [112:5] ‘And there is none like unto Him.’

        http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … php?ch=112

        Thanks

        I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

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        1. mohitmisra profile image60
          mohitmisraposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          "Behold but One in all things it is the second that leads you astray" Kabir
          All is One, all is god.

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          1. WebbyAvatar profile image57
            WebbyAvatarposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Then, who is Satan? lol

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            1. mohitmisra profile image60
              mohitmisraposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              All is god , every good and bad is all god.

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              1. WebbyAvatar profile image57
                WebbyAvatarposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Is he that crazy or bored?!

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                1. mohitmisra profile image60
                  mohitmisraposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Its called he cosmic joke once its understood , god has the ultimate sense of humor.

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          2. profile image50
            paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I think you have not understodd Kabir correctly; but I won't debate on Kabir

            Thanks

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            1. mohitmisra profile image60
              mohitmisraposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              ha so what does he mean by that?

              Many masters use the word One ,Why?

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    11. profile image52
      diegolonggposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Dude you think way to much into it....Mary is the Mother of Jesus and Jesus is the son of God but Mary i dont think is the wife of god...im pretty sure he just picked a random lady haha, She is not the mother of god either....
      http://www.articlesbase.com/health-arti … 18515.html

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      1. pisean282311 profile image65
        pisean282311posted 12 years agoin reply to this

        interesting..

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    12. easybusinesslinks profile image59
      easybusinesslinksposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Jesus never said a thing, cos he didn't exist!

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      1. profile image0
        Twenty One Daysposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        prove it. thanks smile

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        1. earnestshub profile image83
          earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          To a logical mind, there is 2000 years of empirical proof without even looking! lol

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        2. Randy Godwin profile image59
          Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Prove he did exist!

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          1. profile image0
            Twenty One Daysposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Aren't very good lawyers are ya. The burden of proof is on the accuser not the accused. The prosecutor must prove beyond a reasonable doubt the dependent is guilty. So, the prosecutor says He doesn't exist, not the defendant. Ever see a defendant prove his innocence in court, snake-ster? Nope, didn't think so. So for all you nay-sayers claiming emphatically He doesn't exist, you are the aggressor, the prosecutor -so prove it already and all the deluge will end. Give them facts, data, relevant -non semantic, esoteric, non-theoretical, critical function logic, hardcore, indisputable, viable proof. Else, get a new f-in hobby already.

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            1. Randy Godwin profile image59
              Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              In other words, you can't prove Jesus existed.  Good try by referring to a poster as a prosecutor to keep from having to answer though.  Actually, not a good try at all.  Or prove this is my hobby.  You inferred this didn't you? 

              So use all of your previously stated means to prove being a nay sayer is my "f-in" hobby.  LOL!  And it's MISTER Snake-ster to the likes of you!  HAHA!

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            2. Mark Knowles profile image58
              Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              You are quite right 21. But - you are the one doing the accusing. You are the one stating there was a man who was god who needed to murder hisself coz he wanted to save us wot need saving.

              You are the one accusing me of needing saving.

              Prove it.

              Then we can see your proof of the accusation you have made that I have been saved by the jesus zombie. Or even that the jesus mekaver existed.

              LOLO

              You guys have no ethics - that is your problem. The burden of proof is yours, because you are the accuser and I am the defendant - and no amount of semantics will change that.

              I do not need to prove I do not need saving and I do not need to prove that I was not saved.

              wink

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              1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
                ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                I just love it when someone speaks greek and another answers in an alien language.


                "You need saving" translation: you need to make sense of your life and the world

                "I don't need saving" translation : I'm not sinful!

                lol
                lol

                or

                "Jesus is the son of G-d" translation : Jesus is an archetype of divinity because he achieved transcendence of the mundane and became godlike in his mastery of the forces of his consciosness and the physical universe as humans were all intended

                "Jesus is not the son of G-d"  translation : G-d did not have sex with a woman and gave birth to a human child!

                different wavelengths talking together is hilarious.

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                1. Mark Knowles profile image58
                  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  English - do you speak it? big_smile

                  The people telling me I need to be saved are saying:

                  "Jesus was an actual person and he is coming back to judge you."

                  They even build big buildings in his honor.

                  Sorry Woowoo. sad

                  I know it is all metaphorical and all of it need to be applied internally - not externally, but - that is not what most people think. I am sure you are on the right track though - I see lots of people accepting your explanation and changing their views. lol lol Not.

                  Trust me - I tried your way for thirty years. People have already decided and you are merely validating their beliefs when you say "Jesus Saves." Golly gosh what a low opinion you have of me. Oh well.

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                  1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
                    ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    these things unfold at the right time for each person. You plant a seed and then it grows. chopping down giant oaks in other people's brain makes everybody tired.

                    if you know it's metaphorical, then say so.That's not what you're doing. You're saying everybody that believes this is wrong. They are not wrong. They are at that level of understanding. SO you raise it up, not bring them down.

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                  2. ceciliabeltran profile image64
                    ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    The truth is, I have extracted more substance from you speaking to you honestly than you have extracted any substance from believers you bully.

                    Yeah I know, sorry woowoo lala I'm wrong and other classic mark comments. press the button to automate that.

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              2. aguasilver profile image68
                aguasilverposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                No Mark, 21 is right.

                Personally I don't care whether you consider yourself challenged at all, if you are it's by God, not believers, so take your argument up with Him.

                If you are convinced that God does not exist, then stop waffling on and let us simple folk get on with our beliefs, annoying as you may find them, practice some of the tolerance you seem to expect that believers MUST show you.

                Like 21 said, get a new hobby, your rants are boring, repetitious, unoriginal and futile.

                Apart from that you seem a nice guy! smile

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                1. Randy Godwin profile image59
                  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  So it isn't you believers telling others they are wrong, it's god?  You guys are speaking for god because he cannot do so himself?  I feel quite certain if you merely let god speak for himself we would not have any arguments on these forums.  Why don't we just give it a try and see if I am wrong. 

                  Let the believers keep their god to themselves and see how much criticism they receive from us.  Deal?

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                  1. aguasilver profile image68
                    aguasilverposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    No very likely Randy, you see all believers do is quote what God has already stated, I know it's annoying to hear or read stuff that you find distasteful, but equally it's kinda annoying to hear and read stuff that we find distasteful, like 'sky fairy' etc, all the normal rubbish trotted out whenever any believer makes a comment on the Christianity section of HubPages, you can guarantee that some non believer will set his heart on gathering a gaggle of friends and trying to take the thread off track and provoke some controversy.

                    It's a pathetic game really, especially as the non believers ran out of anything new to slander God with years ago, so they just trot out the same old same old boring rubbish.

                    Unfortunately (for non believers) believers pay not a jot of attention to their 'antichrist arguments'..... mainly because the believers all have to some degree a PERSONAL relationship with Christ, and secondly because there are something like 33,000 verses of scripture that will counter ANY futile attempt to discredit the bible or God.

                    But you could give it a try, stop being contentious for the sake of it, and allow believers to 'fellowship' together amicably.

                    But unbelievers are like mosquitoes at a barbecue, they always smell blood and want to swarm and feed, then wonder why they get swatted, and cry foul!

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                  2. aguasilver profile image68
                    aguasilverposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    ....and thinking about it a mite more, why should believers, writing in a Christianity thread, need to keep their God to themselves.

                    It would seem that the non believers are the incumbent antagonists, deliberately entering a Christian forum space and picking fights.

                    Bit like trying to start a fight in a church meeting!

                    Why would any reasonable person try to do that?

                    PS. Glad you said 'us' shows there IS a concerted effort to suppress Gods word.

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                  3. profile image0
                    Twenty One Daysposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    So, let them deal with your problem? your hate speech? your misadventures through sodoms tomb?

                    What are all you Atheists (antagonists) so concerned about and why? Why do you give a tiny rats a@@ what they believe or don't? I mean if you are holding fast to your profession, you wouldn't 'soil' your critical logic/moral responsibility with the likes of these "deluded". It just proves -beyond a reasonable doubt- how needy you all are. You need to argue, to fight and most importantly -need to defend your position of "non-belief" against an entity you claim does not exist...

                    ...anyone see the oxymoron in that.

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                2. Mark Knowles profile image58
                  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Guess I hit a nerve huh? Burden of proof? Yours. God does not exist and you are not speaking for Him. Be a man - speak for yourself not some nonexistent invisible Super Daddy in the sky.  wink

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              3. profile image0
                Twenty One Daysposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Really??? Would you like to re-read your 14,000 posts in none other than a religion forum -of which you do not believe in, yet vehemently and oh-so obviously, rant about this supposed non existent entity v my posts that only direct to escaping both sides of this ridiculous banter? So, prove it to yourself, that you're right or they're wrong. Either way -both are wrong.

                How did that shanty song go: McKinney is dead and McCarthy don't know it...both of them dead, lying in the same bed; neither one knows that the other ones dead

                Seems you're invader -like you accuse religion- casing verbal wars -like you accuse them. Even if you claim your are not speaking to them, but an entity you say doesn't exist -voicing it on an internet forum. You are the epitome of the cliche: pot calling kettle black.

                Now, that I have again enabled you, Marcus. Enjoy -and yes, get a hobby or how about all you atheists (antagonists, really) be original: create a hobby!

                Have fun brother!

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                1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
                  ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  geez...that's what I need, a new hobby!  or better yet a new hub. thanks james.  I was spiraling down with it.

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                2. Mark Knowles profile image58
                  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Aww - still denying the burden of proof is yours huh?
                  Like I said - no ethics.  Fight for the ISM !!!! And anyone who disagrees is a heathen unbeliever. Still - at least you have stopped burning us at the stake. wink

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                  1. profile image0
                    Twenty One Daysposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Thank you, Marcus, enjoy your rejection.

                    off to write.

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            3. skyfire profile image82
              skyfireposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              That way you can even prove existence of pink invisible unicorn and bermuda triangle monster. Why don't you buy that ?

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              1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
                ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                don't join in on the alien versus greek conversation! lol

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                1. skyfire profile image82
                  skyfireposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  lol

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                  1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
                    ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    lol

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          2. ceciliabeltran profile image64
            ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            First, prove to us that you exist.

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            1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
              ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              prove you exist... can you do it?

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              1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
                ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                in other words you can't prove you exist. Are you really randy godwin? maybe you're mary may fair. You don't even have a picture.
                if you show us your picture, how can we be sure its you.

                the only proof that you exist are your words. somewhere in that subterfuge is the consciousness that is talking to us...and that is proof that you exist...who you are really is up for grabs. For all they know we could be one person pretending to be two.

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            2. Randy Godwin profile image59
              Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Because you, Hubpages own self appointed spiritual guide, acknowledged my post.  So you are either imagining things (quite believable) or I do indeed exist.

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              1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
                ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                spiritual guide? lol I mostly talk about metaphors and scientific discoveries, pictographs and everyday wisdom you can get from the guy next door.
                so to you science is really a spiritual matter...yeah I can buy that.

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    13. John B Badd profile image61
      John B Baddposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      He was a great shaman.

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    14. yankeeintexas profile image60
      yankeeintexasposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      True, Jesus never called Himself the "son of God"! But, God did say on two different points "This is my beloved Son, in Whom I am well please!" That is why we call Him the Son of God!

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      1. Randy Godwin profile image59
        Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        According to hearsay, of course.  The Bible is merely hearsay because there is no proof anyone said anything in it.  Why do you think the books are titled : The Gospel ACCORDING to John, Luke, Matthew, etc.?

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  2. profile image0
    Brenda Durhamposted 12 years ago

    Read and/or search the Scriptures again.
    You'll find out you're wrong.

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    1. Greek One profile image63
      Greek Oneposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Evidently he was just in town to party, Brenda....

      just before he went to India to open up a coffee shop.

      Don't you read Hubpages?? lol

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      1. profile image0
        Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Indeed.
        wink

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      2. pisean282311 profile image65
        pisean282311posted 12 years agoin reply to this

        lol

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    2. ceciliabeltran profile image64
      ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      No it's true, Brenda. He never said I am the son of G-d. He said "the son of MAN (humanity)" Ben Adam. which simply means HUMANITY.

      Son of G-d was an accusation of the Jews. For sons of god were charlatans and sorcerers, in the way Indian sorcerers exist. But the Greeks were used to the idea of sons of gods and so that particular piece of hebrew-greek cultural misunderstanding created the collosal misinterpretation of the meaning of what he was saying.

      Jesus was predicting the future of humanity.

      But he was saying he is the messiah, the mosiach. That is not the same as a son of god.

      you can read the bible ten thousand times and not once see "I am the son of G-d."

      He frequently called to the Father which is AVINU. Because that is in reference to G-d who reigns on Earth.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avinu_Malkeinu

      He doesn't have to be the actual son of G-d for his words to raise your consciousness and give you peace. The essence of faith is not in these things that can be shaken. Put your faith of strong foundations, not ones that can be rattled.


      http://www.gospel-mysteries.net/son-of-man.html

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      1. profile image0
        Twenty One Daysposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        soooo how was your exile?
        (ps, crazy surprise: i won the daily drawing for Let Them Eat Brioche. go figure. )


        ..sorry everyone for the mini-jihad-thread-jack.

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        1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
          ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          As in the case of Jesus dying from the world,

          the exile from the world gave me three days to attend to my affairs faster and I was invited to do a lecture at the Joseph Campbell Roundtable on creation myths and its relation to the chakras. smile

          So when Jesus came back from the dead, He is risen bearing "peace"
          and the tools to bring clarity to doubting thomases.

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        2. ceciliabeltran profile image64
          ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          and congratulations James! Although Jesus never says he is the son of G-d, I must say you deserve it.

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          1. profile image0
            Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Greek One's post above will show you differently.

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            1. profile image0
              Twenty One Daysposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              None of those verse quote Him saying anything about himself, except to say He was of the father. The emphasis is not on him, as 'Christians' do. The emphasis is on the Creator, not the manifest creation. (are you not elohim?) Through his kindness, decision, faith to die, every human has access because of that action into fullness of life. Why the debate? Let's get busy gracin` instead of facin`.

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              1. profile image0
                Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Grace is unconditional and automatic since Jesus died for the world.
                Salvation, however is not.
                People cannot just "take" salvation when it's offered.  They have to "accept" it from that Loving God named Jesus and Love Him in return.  They cannot just say well I'm under His grace so I'm saved.
                And that IS the purpose of Jesus's sacrifice! -----not "enlightenment";  the purpose is for the changing of hearts and the saving of souls.

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                1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
                  ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  you are in the vicinity but somehow you can't seem to get to the destination, what do you think enlightenment means?

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                  1. profile image0
                    Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Maybe I should've said "some elusive form of enlightenment over and above salvation".....I dunno.
                    But what I meant was that it is SALVATION that is the goal;  not anything else.

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                2. profile image0
                  Twenty One Daysposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Then you have missed the entire point of his work.
                  Salvation -as Ceclia asked- is not from the action of knowing good from evil, it is salvation from the effects/results of choice.
                  Grace is unconditional, not a respecter of persons, so everyone is already given this gift -by him. Second, not only this gift but many more, for example: a measure of faith has been given to all mankind, not a select few. Now, it is through 100% (not 99.9%) faith or action of free will, without fear of consequences/judgment for actions of knowing good/evil, that we enter into the fullness of life. That fullness is exactly as Adam had, if not better. No penalty by law, no penalty by death, no penalty by value/wages.

                  The only penalty is refusal to live by faith, in grace -which is again, free will...


                  As I once told someone: get your mind out of the gutter.

                  From: You are worthy more than many sparrows, paraphrased of course. Consider the flowers of the field: do they sweat and worry and fear for light, food, water? No?! Then why do you who is greater than them.

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                  1. profile image0
                    Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Just because Jesus came and gave us grace doesn't mean it nullified the Father's rules.  Remember Adam and Eve were driven out of the Garden.
                    We're never gonna be able to go back to that "Garden" in our human forms. 
                    Only upon physical death will the born-again attain ultimate salvation.
                    ...Many people believe God is gonna give us back the Garden while we yet live physically, or at least resurrect the ones who've died, and place them into that Garden again.
                    Sorry, sounds nice, but God is not about being "nice".  He's about being worshipped and Loved.
                    Those who seek to "better" themselves while leaving out accountability are not Loving Him nor recognizing His sovreignty.

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      2. A friend indeed profile image59
        A friend indeedposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        In reply to your post The Son of Man, how is it He is born of a virgin, no human father, also on top of that he only had 24 chromosomes in his blood, every other living human in all of history had 46, the only other two to carry a lesser amount of chromosomes than jesus were Adam and Eve, both had twenty three. In addition to the chromosome count Jesus received 23 from the virgin Mary where did the extra one come from, that extra one was to ensure he is male. You all need a serious revelation and touch from The Holy Spirit, because we are all of the one family, but only as The Spirit reveals. This is all simple mind boggling revelations, the whole bible is tied together but only when you understand God.

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    3. profile image0
      Twenty One Daysposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      He asked Peter and John who He was and they said He was the Son of Elohim, the Anointed of Father (Abba).

      but He also told the Scribes He was one with the Father which started the whole "let's get rid of this guy before Rome and the people tear us to shreds"

      Also commanded us NOT to worship Him, but rather the 1st Commandment, amplified with loving our fellow man.

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      1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
        ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        bene elohim is a magician

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      2. profile image0
        Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        ...commanded us not to worship Him?

        Chapter and verse, please, with allowance for context as well.

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      3. A friend indeed profile image59
        A friend indeedposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        And whom The Father has chosen He will reveal The Son to him so that all may honour the Son as The Father is honoured. All this confusion is silly, we are arguing amongst ourselves, just as the pharisees and saducees did, yet we should unite and go out to destroy the works of the enemies.

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  3. brimancandy profile image81
    brimancandyposted 12 years ago

    Since nobody has actually heard the words come out of his mouth in over 2,000 years. And, nobody has seen him in over 2,000 years, this is a subject that I wish would stay in church.

    Why do people have to keep bringing this up? If you beleive in the bible keep it to yourself. Go to your church, or wherever you practice your religeon and keep it there. People always ask me why I don't go to church anymore. It's because it is the same news repeated over and over and over, and has been the same news for hundreds of years. It's like the book report that never ends!

    I personally could care less. He is who he is, people can argue about it all they want. Nothing is going to change.

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    1. jesusfreak4life profile image57
      jesusfreak4lifeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      True. Nothing is going to change- God himself will never change, nor will his word. I honestly believe that church now days has become a bunch of legalistical bull crap of sugar coated- ill tell ya what you want to hear just to keep from having an argument- sorta stuff. N the legalistical crap is exactly what drives people away from church, away from God n away from religion. Which there was never intended to be in the first place. God didnt create catholics n jews n protestants n christians, etc.. He wanted all of us to worship in one mind and in one accord. In unity.  N as for everyone doubting that Jesus is the son of God. READ YOUR BIBLE..!  John3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son***JESUS*** that who-so-ever believes in Him will not parish but have eternal life." And in John 11, 25-27 Jesus pretty much straight up asks mary if she believes he is the Son of God and her reply in verse 27 was- "Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the SON OF GOD, who is to come into the world." There ya have it..

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      1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
        ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        "will not parish but have eternal life"

        my dear, you are right, but you have to understand why you are right and what son of G-d is so that you will not PARISH, nor perish but have eternal life.

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        1. profile image0
          Twenty One Daysposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          taps glass, hello?
          this is what i have been trying to tell them for a while Ceci. Thanks you, actually, you made it perfectly simple. smile

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          1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
            ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Thanks James! I read your book. You and I certainly hit the same spot at some point in the journey. But I must say on the book, you were very clear about your metaphors.

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            1. profile image0
              Twenty One Daysposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              I was? I thought it was chock full of metaphors.
              Honestly, I tried to keep it as simple as possible, as I have a tendency to scrutinize detail to the "umteenth probability", which makes reading my papers nearly like neo-Sanskrit.
              But, very glad to get some wholesome critique big_smile

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              1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
                ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                I will email you about ideas!

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      2. profile image53
        (Q)posted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Are you not aware of the canonization of the bible? Not aware of the differences in gods word from the OT to the NT?

        Yes, gods word has changed many times and will probably continue to change.

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        1. profile image0
          brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          he never said he was the son of THE god. But he did say, son of god (without the extra the)
          John 3:18   He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

          John 5:25   Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

          John 10:36   Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

          and other places but i like the book of john a lot right now. There is a portion of what you say it true. If jesus had have laid claim to his sonship then the timing for his death would have happened much quicker and sooner that what god wanted. To the jews saying that one is the son of god is blasphemy and punishable by death, so he kept that out of the public arena.

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          1. profile image53
            (Q)posted 12 years agoin reply to this

            So what? No difference.

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        2. profile image0
          brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          The words appear to have changed between the old and new testament, but, God has just revealed himself as a God of love. It's not a change as such, but another side of God, what has changed is the dispensation. The first dispensation was natural, according to the flesh, hence the Law;  the second was spiritual, according to the spirit, hence Grace; the third will be judgment, according to both natural and spiritual. Spiritual (everlasting life)to those who know god and natural (death) to those who know not god.

                 Gods word never changes meaning or context.
          God says what he wants to say. You can't say 'changed' because really it's the perception of the reader that interprets. God shows huge love in the OT along with signs and wonders O' plenty. God speaks of love without the signs and wonders in the NT. You can bet it is all one promise. Even the tribulation which people think is gods wrath is actually God bringing people onto himself. Think for a second, Do people ask god for anything when times are prosperous and everything is fine and dandy? But the first calamity and boom.. "god i know we haven't spoken for a while...". God isn't cruel and unjust or malicious or evil. He didn't create or use a satan to possess humans or inflict misery into their lives to make them more holy. He didn't kill all those people in the OT just for the fun of it or to please Gods sadistic side as they wiggle in torture in flames of hell forever, as some would love to convince you and will even repeat it time after time after time.. God didn't put his son on a cross because he takes joy in human suffering. God does what he has to do to get the job done. What is gods job? Uniting people back to himself.
                    Why doesn't he just show himself then?
          Because that won't help people walk in his ways. His ways are internal and sinless and seeing god hovering over the atlantic ocean won't make people holy. Trial and error and learning will. The jews had all the signs and wonders from god anyone could want. They ate of the bread that fell from the sky every day in the desert after God rescued them from Egypt and still they were unable to keep the law or refrain from idolatry. And we won't be any better off either because we will feel trapped, in prison, caged and sad. Only if we come willingly to christ will we find the strength to follow in his ways. We can't be forced or co-erced or herded like cattle. We find him and adopt him.

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          1. profile image0
            Twenty One Daysposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            no such thing as old or new testament. this might be where the problemo is, migo. as well the term G/god is false, it is an idol name -from Baal. Everything else after that you pointed to is Churchianity.

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            1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
              ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              true true. hence G-d.

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          2. profile image53
            (Q)posted 12 years agoin reply to this

            No, it most certainly was changed.



            No, it is the words in the bible that were changed.



            Like when tens of thousands of children starve to death every day, that is fine and dandy for Christians?



            Yes, he has all those characteristics, as depicted in scriptures.

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          3. mommy0f2angels profile image58
            mommy0f2angelsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            exactly *brotheryochanan*

            pretty much... would you want people to be with you because they HAVE to be? or because that WANT to be? it's that simple. Why show yourself? it's easy to believe in what you see... we're supposed to love him no matter what... even if we can't see him.

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          4. defenestratethis profile image60
            defenestratethisposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Ive heard that all things are made mainfest by their opposites...Joy is made manifest by sadness, Light is made manifest by darkness, Truth is made manifest by error, Despair is made manifest by joy, Love made manifest by hate...etc etc etc........Since God HAS no opposite, he remains hidden.

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      3. A friend indeed profile image59
        A friend indeedposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Well Put, I totally agree with what The Spirit has revealed to you, you are so close to The Lord that His word is on your tongue and burning in your heart like a well oiled lamp.

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  4. Greek One profile image63
    Greek Oneposted 12 years ago

    John 14:6-9  Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied." Jesus replied, "Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and yet you still don't know who I am? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking me to show him to you?"

    John 8:56-59  You aren't even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham?" Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!" At that point they picked up stones to throw at him. But Jesus was hidden from them and left the Temple.

    John 11:21-27   Anyone who believes in me will live, even after dying. Everyone who lives in me and believes in me will never ever die. Do you believe this, Martha?" "Yes, Lord," she told him. "I have always believed you are the Messiah, the Son of God, the one who has come into the world from God."

    John 3:16-18   For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him. There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God's one and only Son."

    John 6:37-40    For it is my Father's will that all who see his Son and believe in him should have eternal life. I will raise them up at the last day

    Matthew 11:27   "All things have been committed to me by my Father.  No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him

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    1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
      ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      "I am" is a name of G-d.  It does not mean He is. Ah well.

      The entire thing requires deeper understanding. I can explain it here in detail but that won't make a dent. You'll get to the same conclusion in your own sweet time. As long as it gives you peace, it centers you and makes you peaceful, its doing the minimum it can do and that's better than nothing.

      And Father is Avinu...everybody called G-d "Father"

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    2. profile image0
      Onusonusposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Those verses mean something completely different, theyre all out of context, theyr'e just metophorical, Jesus was just a regular guy, blah blah blah........

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      1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
        ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        well they are metaphorical, but i wouldn't call Jesus, just a regular guy.

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        1. profile image0
          Onusonusposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I agree, Not a regular guy in the least. Less metophorical and more like the only begotten son of God.

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          1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
            ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            begotten means acquired.

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            1. profile image0
              Onusonusposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              begotten means getting it on. oh yeah..........

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              1. profile image0
                Onusonusposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                just joking.smile

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                1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
                  ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  lol

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      2. A friend indeed profile image59
        A friend indeedposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        If it is blah, blah, blah to you, you are the fool who is being held up to shame, Jesus Christ is the Son of God, his death was the necessary and only satisfying sacrifice for our redemption that was pleasing to The Father, He was, is and will be forever. That is what makes Him Sovereign. If you can muster one ounce of intelligence within your brain, tell me what is higher than the heavens.

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        1. Mark Knowles profile image58
          Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Awesome! I love it when 2 competing versions of the Perfect Word of God start fighting and insulting each other.

          It is proof that the entire religion is nonsense and there is no such thing as a god. Thanks for validating my opinion.

          Do it again. wink

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  5. optimus grimlock profile image61
    optimus grimlockposted 12 years ago

    when did u talk to him??? i heard his apointment list is very long.

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  6. profile image0
    Twenty One Daysposted 12 years ago

    this just reminded me of that kid game: rock, scissors, paper.

    rock = sin/death
    scissors = laws
    paper = grace; covers law & sin
    scissors keep cutting up grace and the rock keeps trying to weigh the paper down.

    the wind (of the Spirit) lets the paper float...

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    1. profile image0
      Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      James,
      why do you try to bypass repentance?

      Tell me you Love Jesus;  tell me how you became born-again; tell me who He is to you;  tell me you honor the man/God who died for your sins; then I might listen to the rest of your story.


      Edit...
      okay you said you praise Him and sing about or to Him.  What else?

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      1. profile image0
        Twenty One Daysposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        why won't you get passed repentance and start enjoying the gifts in their fullness?

        Do you understand a single act of repentance is all that is necessary/requested? Not countless daily reminders of your past. After that, he asks you to live abundantly.

        I actually agree with one crow (preacher) who said: every time you are reminded of your past, you can never see your future. So you will never live the life He died to give you. In essence, then, to you He died in vane and the gifts the King of All presented you, you have put into the closet, shut the door and refused them. Do you think he is ever going to invite you to another celebration?

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        1. profile image0
          Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I agree with part of that.
          And I personally am, yes, too prone to dredging up old sins and mistakes.  I've even re-repented of past sins after I've already known they were forgiven, and thereby DID make an attempt to make the power of the Cross of no effect!  I admit that.  So then I repented of doing THAT! ha but yes I do know what you mean.
          Yes, that one act of Christ can cover all sins.   But I'm human, as you are, and we may sin sometime in the future.  And even though I know forgiveness is available for those sins, neither you nor I will ever be able to accept that forgiveness unless we repent of those sins.
          The problem is not that Christ isn't all-powerful.  The problem is that we are NOT.

          The life of the Redeemed person isn't all happiness and comfort.  The saved ones are commanded to carry the Cross, to keep a burden in our hearts for lost souls.  That means for their souls, not for their monetary happiness or their physical comfort ot even their total comfort of mind.
          Joel Osteen tries to take people there to that plateau by skipping the repentance part.  He's a motivational speaker but not a Biblical preacher.
          There are so many times when I've seen born-again people start striving for a bigger position on earth and in heaven at the expense of losing their Love for lost souls.

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          1. profile image0
            Twenty One Daysposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Yeah, i have heard him and wasn't impressed. He -like many- are tony robbins cut outs. but the reality is this:

            The burden we carry is called light.
            no matter what mistake we made are making or might make is irrelevant. ALL sin has passed away -to him, by him, through him. Its gone. The effect of sin is gone, forever, to those who believe it. People holding on to that sin-idea continually sin. This is what is in their minds to do. Sure, if you slip by accident or even on purpose, a simple heartfelt apology is enough to him. Now move on. If you continue to think on sin, you will sin and die because of it -at some point. If you think on Life, you live and won't die because he is alive -and lives and lives in you...

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          2. ceciliabeltran profile image64
            ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            hmm...repenting. one repents permanently. It is not repentance if you slip and do it again and then repent again.

            if it is externally motivated, you will repent and sin again. An internal repentance is permanent because it is rooted in the understanding of the nature of one's addictions.

            You are addicted to that which kills your spirit because it gives you the illusion of bodily relief.

            The repentance is a massive neural rewiring. You divert short term relief for long term fulfillment of needs.

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        2. A friend indeed profile image59
          A friend indeedposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          We need to remember our past, not to be loaded down with pain and guilt, but to understand the grace of God that is given to us, He has blessed us to make it this far, some of us have had it hard, some even harder, but it is all to teach us who we are in Christ and to be crafted into His image, and to make sense of all the pain we have experienced, until you can understand all your pain that you have experienced in light of God's wisdom, you can never really live at peace and know that God's hand has guided us to where we all are.

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      2. profile image0
        Twenty One Daysposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        there's not enough room on HP to tell you Brenda...

        But I will say this -i love the Father more than anything and am grateful beyond words for what Y`shua did on my behalf. And as He requested, remember -I mean, how could I forget, right? And like him, I refuse to sit idol or fall into the trap of books and laws and lies and reminders of mistakes. I chose life. Now, it isn't about choice, its about enjoying and living in that grace, in the free will, every second. not by consciously reminding myself to do, but by just doing it. Else, it would be to deny everything -especially that adoration- by refusing to accept everything he has for me -right here, right now. My conscious mind fights to keep me in a sin mentality, a fearful mentality. But oh man, his Spirit in me has shaken the very foundation of my body and brain to keep me from falling back into that grave...

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  7. profile image0
    Brenda Durhamposted 12 years ago

    James,
    part of worship is recognizing that Jesus is God.
    That doesn't leave out the Father, because the Father is God.

    ...Do you not believe that?  Do you believe what the book of John says?

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    1. profile image0
      Twenty One Daysposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      But, Y`shua himself commanded us not to worship him, but to worship the Father. Again, we talked about this before. He is the fullness of Creator in bodily form, the Word made flesh. Firstborn among many brothers/sisters. He is king and lord of all things...

      Why do you keep questioning that?

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      1. profile image0
        Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Where did He command us to not worship Him?
        And if you can tell me that, why and for what purpose would He say that?  and when?
        ...While He was on earth,  most men could only see His outer personage, His human figure. 
        The closest anyone came to fully recognizing Him was Thomas (in John 20: 28) where he proclaimed "My Lord and my God".  And that was even after Jesus's resurrection.   Did Jesus tell Thomas to NOT worship Him?  No.  He blessed Thomas and He blessed anyone who had "not seen" Him and yet worshipped Him without physical proof of His divinity.


        ...I have an extended family member who thinks like you do.  He declares his Love for the Father, but refuses to even talk about Jesus in depth.  I don't think he's saved at all.  He's trying to get somewhere both in this life and the next without honoring the One being that the Bible says has the Name above all names and to whom ALL judgment is given over to ----Jesus Christ.

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        1. profile image0
          Twenty One Daysposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Churchianity claims we should worship Jesus, not Jesus commanding us to worship him. All he asked the disciples to do was: do what he did and remember it. Is He Lord of all? Yes. So, to me by following his words and doing what he did, am showing love -foremost for the Father and for my fellow human being. This is the New Commandment.

          Jesus himself never told anyone -pre or post resurrection- to worship him. Ever. Find it for me and I'll believe you.

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          1. profile image0
            Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Yet the disciples did worship Him directly after He ascended to heaven.
            Luke 24: 50, 51, and 52:

            "And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them,
            And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
            And they worshiped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy."

            They didn't have to be commanded to worship him;  they simply recognized his divinity.

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            1. Jerami profile image57
              Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Did the desciples ever worship Jesus while he was in their presence.
                 I think that the word Worshiped from in this instance could have been translated just a little diffrently. 

                Just my take on it any way?? 
                Jesus did rebuke the man for calling him "GOOD teacher"

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  8. SpanStar profile image60
    SpanStarposted 12 years ago

    Number one: Jesus never stopped saying he was the son of God and They put him to death because of it.

    Number 2:  Jesus really didn't have to say it because God himself spoke to the people...without me going to bible:

    From: God

        This is my beloved son hear him....

        This is my son in whom I'm well please!

    I don't recall God saying that about anyone else....

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    1. profile image0
      Twenty One Daysposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      And rightly so. He had the right to say he was the Son, but he never said to worship Him.

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      1. profile image53
        (Q)posted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Then, why do you?

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      2. A friend indeed profile image59
        A friend indeedposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Your problem, my friend and take this with the grain of salt. It is The Spirit who comes to us to testify to the truth that Jesus has come into the world not to condemn the world  but to save the world through Him. It is the role of the comforter, or the Spirit of truth, that He takes from what is His, and makes it known to us, so that we worship The Lord from a genuine appreciation of what He has done for us. For centuries people have been worshiping Christ for the gift that has been given to us, because we understand the grace that has been freely given, it is not legalistic, it is not fake, it is the unity of mind between two lovers who adore each other, and love each other, and as the lesser loves the greater, this love is expressed in love and worship. You are taking you view from a political stand point, meaning to say you are doing only that which the law says, but you have a heart of stone. Where no genuine feelings and admiration that you are created to generate are coming forth. The law will only blind you, but the Spirit will reveal wonderful things  to you, where worship is a natural part of all people who serve The Lord Jesus Christ.

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  9. aguasilver profile image68
    aguasilverposted 12 years ago

    John 10:29-31 (King James Version)

    My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

    I and my Father are one.

    Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

    If we accept the above verse (and I do) then it clearly states that Christ is coequal with God, and therefore worthy of worship.

    Philippians 2:5-7 (King James Version)

    Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

    Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

    But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men.

    Praise is when we 'sing' (or speak) the praises of God (including Christ).

    Worship is when our spirits are elevated to meet with the Holy Spirit (of God and Christ).

    This should be a permanent condition.

    Praising and worshiping God in the form of the trinity with our words, our songs, our prayers and our spirit.

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  10. Pastortylerodell profile image61
    Pastortylerodellposted 12 years ago

    Jesus directed all worship to His Father in heaven. You are not to worship man or angels, to do so would idol worship.

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    1. profile image0
      Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      YES!  That's the point!  Glad you said that.
      It wasn't that Jesus wasnt' worthy of worship; it was that humans are so fallible; they could only "see" Jesus as a man while he was on earth.   Except for, finally, Thomas, after the resurrection..

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  11. profile image0
    Twenty One Daysposted 12 years ago

    But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father is spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. "He is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" -Y`shua himself.


    There is only He, the Creator and one mediator between He and mankind, the man Y`shua Moshiach. (I think it is found in Timothy).

    Brenda, I also found the Luke reference, but in no other.
    Again, is he worthy to be praised? Absolutely.
    But as I said, to do his commands and walk WITH him in that grace/faith is the most valid worship.

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    1. profile image0
      Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I agree that's valid, but
      ...To recognize Jesus as God is, in my view, the most valid worship.  Not to worship the "man", but to know that Jesus was THE most perfect manifestation of God that could've been given to mankind's limited understanding.
      If I've asked this before, please pardon my duplicate question, but...have you ever read the book of John?

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      1. profile image0
        Twenty One Daysposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Brenda, i am not hear to put myself in the limelight, but have read both Torah, most of the Talmud and all the correspondences -many times. Even after completing biblical school and was asked to become a junior pastor.
        I cannot make it any plainer than that. We cannot separate Him from the Father no more than we can separate ourselves from the Father -and this I understand, fully. Am I greater than him? By no means could I ever be. Am I his brother? He said I was, so I don't think its good to argue with him...

        But Christians do not hold to the truth of it, instead they worship the man or the opposite, ignore him completely, deny the post resurrection work, proclaiming angels and demons and all kinds of doctrines that do nothing to bring the fruit of the kingdom out from the hearts of every believer. False testimonies, false doors or entrances into the kingdom, promoting themselves by bringing lambs to an alter that no longer exists. That is where I draw the line. That is why I walked away from two ministries -for exactly both reasons.

        If I submit myself 100% to the Spirit (who is also the Father), and allow that unity to take place, my worship is undeniable, my love unconditional...

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        1. A friend indeed profile image59
          A friend indeedposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          One question.
          Why are we all to honor Jesus Christ?

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    2. profile image53
      (Q)posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Gosh, will believers ever make up their minds? If Jesus never said to worship him, why do you worship him?

      And, why don't answer this question? Too hard?

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      1. profile image0
        Twenty One Daysposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Obviously, Q, you are looking for validation -yet again. If you ACTUALLY read my postings you wouldn't have asked that question twice.

        There, I enabled you -again. Enjoy.

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      2. SpanStar profile image60
        SpanStarposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        It is my understanding that nothing in life is free with that said Jesus came to earth to show us that a spirital and righteous life could be lived.  Jesus gave his life for us, so that means we were now bought with the death of Jesus and those who are willing to accept this gift, this price he paid, now need to worship the one and only who has given his life so that we would not perish forever.  That is why he is to be worshipped.

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        1. profile image0
          Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          **********************************************************
          We are not to worship Yahshua. Now we are to lay down our lives.'

          Not about what you said but
          People saying we can do anything are reprobates. Their minds are seared.
          Now that's an easy life. Say "Forgive me" and do anything you want too. LOL

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          1. profile image0
            Twenty One Daysposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            well, I'll be...for the first time, DS, I have to agree with you on both points.

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            1. profile image0
              Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              You don't agree with me and I don't want you to.
              Agree with truth

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  12. profile image0
    Twenty One Daysposted 12 years ago

    My largest issue is this: humans refuse -by sensation overload or equation overload- to view Him from HIS perspective and see yourselves from also HIS perspective. instead it is the opposite: they look at him from their point of view and assume it is correct.

    They are simply told to listen to the spirit, the word in their hearts instead of chattering in his ear. How can they hear him when they are always doing the talking...

    This is something I had trouble with. Oddly, before all the hoopla, from the time I was a kid, wet behind the ears, I listened and all was good. When I stopped listening and started yapping, it all went "meshugenah".

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    1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
      ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      it's all good...it has to come out so you can empty.

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      1. profile image0
        Twenty One Daysposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Yeah, Ceci, I suppose so.
        In many respects, have thrown in the towel when it comes to explaining to believers. Oddly, people who used to fiercely oppose and disbelieve have listened and understood more than those who say they do -from double phd historians, wall street gurus to housewives and even homeless folks. But, that is another story for another time...

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  13. profile image0
    Brenda Durhamposted 12 years ago

    But the altar does still exist.
    Upon it, a sinner becomes "broken";  it takes that to become a "new creature in Christ".

    Revelation 1: 27:

    "And He shall rule them with a rod of iron;  as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers;  even as I received of my Father."

    Our hearts must be "broken" before we can be "born again".  Not only that, we must die to the natural life, the things of this world.  We cannot attain to the Spiritual world until we do that.

    Peter wanted to save Jesus's physical life before He went to the Cross.  Peter rebuked Jesus.  Jesus, in turn, rebuked Peter, calling him "Satan", for trying to keep Him from the plan that He had.

    Jesus said
    "Whosoever will come after me,  let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
    For whosoever will save his life shall lose it;  but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
    For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"

    While, yes, God wants us to have "abundant life", the focus is not mostly on this earthly life;  it is on eternal life.  And like I said and the Bible says, that isn't attainable until we enter heaven as we physically die.

    You don't claim to be a Christian!

    ...I suppose I'm always trying to get your soul saved, James.
    And you are always trying to get me to...what?....be more Spiritual, walk in more secure knowledge of my own salvation?  ....I hope we both achieve those ends!

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    1. profile image0
      Twenty One Daysposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      lol.
      Brenda, I am already saved. That I know beyond anything else.
      I also know the "abundant life" I have referred to has nothing to do with material elements and everything to do with bringing out the fruit of the kingdom into this world -as we are told to do. By all measures, there is nothing to restrict this -even in our physical bodies. To lose our lives is simply to give up ur way of thinking and doing things, by our perspectives and listen and move with the Spirit, His way. That's all, that simple. No voodoo woodoo needed, no temples, no big band celebrations, no holidays, no days in fact, no time, no ritual agendas, no memorized literature...just simply walking in unity WITH Him. That is salvation, that is the anointing, that is the difference between free will and choice.
      I mentioned this before, somewhere on here, if we have to struggle even a little, then we are not in 100% unity with Him. And yeah, maybe some folks need to struggle until they "get it". Once they get it, the struggle should end. Else they might end up like Jacob, in need of a hip replacement (sorry, bad joke!)

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      1. profile image53
        (Q)posted 12 years agoin reply to this

        I would suspect that no believer will ever really know their status with god as there are no Good/Evil Ledgers in which to compare ones life. In fact, as humans, we can only guess as to whether our actions from day to day are in alignment with a god.

        Believers can never know if they are saved until they die. They can't possibly make the claim that they are saved and they know that beyond anything else.

        In fact, to openly make that claim may very well be the nail in the coffin Lucifer was looking for... smile

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        1. profile image0
          Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          My God.

          I can't believe I agree with Q about something.

          Not all of the post.
          But the part about it being susceptible to pride.

          The only way we can "know" is to believe that the Lord is a promise-keeper and that He never changes and that He is sovreign.   It's not about us nor any power we can have; it's about Him.  Amen.

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          1. profile image0
            Twenty One Daysposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Well, at least it brought you two closer in agreement.
            Shows again why i am not a Christian or adhere to any religion -by sensation or equation perspective. They are too much like the world, how would anyone know or see how they are different.

            cheers. wink

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            1. profile image0
              Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Oh trust me on this---

              Q and I are still worlds apart.

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              1. profile image53
                (Q)posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                On the contrary, Brenda, the only thing that separates you from the rest of humanity is a single book about 2 inches thick. wink

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                1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
                  ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  and the only thing that separates your ideas from the 21st century is around 50-60 years of new research.

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        2. A friend indeed profile image59
          A friend indeedposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          My friend, it is that kind of senseless talk that causes people to doubt if they are walking right by The Lord, however it is very easy to know before you die if you have been saved, he who believes that Jesus has risen from the dead will never taste death. In order to believe one must know.

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          1. earnestshub profile image83
            earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            .. and when you stop believing all the reality comes back! lol

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      2. profile image0
        Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        lol
        no, I like the joke!

        But indeed Jacob got the blessing he struggled for, did he not?

        He may have paid a physical price, but he obtained the Spiritual blessing!  He was "broken" in effect, even though it wasn't as much in humility as it was simply a determination to fight for what he knew God was able to give him.  Which, incidentally, also brought physical blessing too, since Esau showed mercy toward him after that.

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  14. profile image0
    Twenty One Daysposted 12 years ago

    I do not where you got that from, but OK. Far as I know, have read and with the literal small measure of experience, I can dispute that. There is no reason or purpose for that knowledge to be hidden from any person. To do so is partiality, which Creator is not. The way for a person to know is by the fruit they produce of that unity -which none apart from that person & Him would understand, even though they could see it. And let's just suppose they produce no fruit at all, it doesn't negate the work already done for them. So simple, so easy, so easily missed.

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    1. profile image53
      (Q)posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Simple logic, you can NEVER know what your god is really thinking about you or what plans he has for you. If you go off making claims you are saved, he might just look upon that as being rather presumptuous and contemptible, and send you straight away to the fiery hole. smile

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      1. nikki1 profile image59
        nikki1posted 12 years agoin reply to this

        "God's Plan

        God has a plan for each of our lives. Two great moments in our lives are when we are born and when we discover why we were born.
        Our lives did not happen by chance. Psalm 139:13 says that God was working in our lives even before we were born. God loves us. We are special to Him, and He has a special purpose for our lives in this world and for our everlasting life in heaven! "
        Quoted.. Google research.. Gods plan.

        God created us, keep in mind.

        Also, check this out..
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JF52lMcUo5k
        Enjoy big_smile

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        1. nikki1 profile image59
          nikki1posted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I just subscribed to the video, personally.
          Smiles big_smile

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        2. profile image53
          (Q)posted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Most of the children, who are the same children that god has a plan for, that starve to death every day wonder why they were born into abject poverty and why their god's plan is for them to suffer horrible agony and death. Some plan.



          So, your god purposely put those children in that predicament, it was his purpose that they suffer and die horribly, by the thousands, every day.

          God is loving and good.

          And now, sit back as you're about to hear that it's all mankinds fault.

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      2. aguasilver profile image68
        aguasilverposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Yeah, we had that once, when the whole church voted for the 'Most humble saint' and old Walter won the most votes.....

        But got disqualified when he stepped forward to collect the prize!

        OK, it's a joke smile

        John 3:16 states 'whosoever'.... well I'm whosoever and therefore I see no reason to believe that God gave me 'probationary' status.

        ONCE saved always saved is often trotted out and sometimes scorned, but we need remember that the emphasis is on ONCE, as in once you are saved, which is always accompanied by a regeneration of the spirit in line with Gods word.

        From that point onward, doubting your salvation is probationism, and not honoring Christs words:

        John 17

        WHEN JESUS had spoken these things, He lifted up His eyes to heaven and said, Father, the hour has come. Glorify and exalt and honor and magnify Your Son, so that Your Son may glorify and extol and honor and magnify You.

        [Just as] You have granted Him power and authority over all flesh (all humankind), [now glorify Him] so that He may give eternal life to all whom You have given Him.

        And this is eternal life: [it means] to know (to perceive, recognize, become acquainted with, and understand) You, the only true and real God, and [likewise] to know Him, Jesus [as the] Christ (the Anointed One, the Messiah), Whom You have sent.

        I have glorified You down here on the earth by completing the work that You gave Me to do.

        And now, Father, glorify Me along with Yourself and restore Me to such majesty and honor in Your presence as I had with You before the world existed.

        I have manifested Your Name [I have revealed Your very Self, Your real Self] to the people whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, and You gave them to Me, and they have obeyed and kept Your word.

        Now [at last] they know and understand that all You have given Me belongs to You [is really and truly Yours].

        For the [uttered] words that You gave Me I have given them; and they have received and accepted [them] and have come to know positively and in reality [to believe with absolute assurance] that I came forth from Your presence, and they have believed and are convinced that You did send Me.

        I am praying for them. I am not praying (requesting) for the world, but for those You have given Me, for they belong to You.

        All [things that are] Mine are Yours, and all [things that are] Yours belong to Me; and I am glorified in (through) them. [They have done Me honor; in them My glory is achieved.]

        And [now] I am no more in the world, but these are [still] in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, keep in Your Name [[a]in the knowledge of Yourself] those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We [are one].

        While I was with them, I kept and preserved them in Your Name in the knowledge and worship of You]. Those You have given Me I guarded and protected, and not one of them has perished or is lost except the son of perdition [Judas Iscariot--the one who is now doomed to destruction, destined to be lost], that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

        Was Christ mistaken?

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      3. ceciliabeltran profile image64
        ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        as a matter of fact he knows that G-d is not thinking about him and that is why he knows he's saved. Being saved means being saved from your own ignorance.

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  15. mommy0f2angels profile image58
    mommy0f2angelsposted 12 years ago

    "And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son,
    in whom I am well pleased."
    Matthew 3:17

    "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now
    is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God:
    and they that hear shall live."
    John 5:25
    (doesn't matter if u believe it... it's true).

    "...Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And
    Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon
    Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee,
    but my Father which is in heaven."
    Matthew 16:16b-17

    "Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had
    found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of
    God? He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might
    believe on him? And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen
    him, and it is he that talketh with thee. And he said, Lord,
    I believe. And he worshipped him."
    John 9:35-38
    (wait!!.... i thought that u said he never said he was THE son of God?)

    "And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying,
    Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them
    suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was
    Christ."
    Luke 4:41
    (if he was just a normal man, a profit, or whatever u are calling him... why would they have done that?? think about that for awhile..)

    All i really wanted to say was that if u don't believe part of the bible is true then how do u believe any of it is true? u can't just pick and choose what is true or what u want to believe... it's all Gods word and it's all true. if it wasn't true then it wouldnt be in there.
    -Christine.

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  16. Rishy Rich profile image74
    Rishy Richposted 12 years ago

    As he was setting out on a journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, "Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone."

    Mark 10:17-18

    Can any hardcore christian, who thinks Jesus is God in flesh, can please explain this one for me?

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    1. profile image0
      Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      He could've said I'm not just a teacher, I'm God in the flesh.

      But since the man referred to him as simply a "good teacher", he responded in kind.

      Jesus was always pointing to the Spiritual aspect of things.  He didn't want anyone to worship his physical image, but to worship God in spirit.

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      1. Rishy Rich profile image74
        Rishy Richposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Sorry but have you hit ur head with a nuke?

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        1. profile image0
          Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Not that I can recall.  lol.  but maybe I have amnesia. ha

          Sorry if that explanation doesn't satisfy you.  I tried.  Maybe someone else will give an explanation you can understand.

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  17. mommy0f2angels profile image58
    mommy0f2angelsposted 12 years ago

    Jesus was trying to make a point to the guy... Pretty much what Brenda Durham said.

    Look for the Book "the case for Christ" by Lee Stribel. u should be able to find it at the library...
    (at least look it up.. and then make the decision to read it or not.)
    -Christine.

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    1. Mark Knowles profile image58
      Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      But Brenda needs to "interpret" everything to mean that she is saved and others are not. It clearly says that Jesus did not consider himself to be god. Why lie about it? * confused *

      "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone."

      There is nothing to suggest the nonsensical interpretation Brenda stated. She is merely repeating what some one else has said to defend an untenable position.

      I recommend reading some Richard Dawkins. He basically proves there is no god. Look him up -  "The God Delusion" is a good one - whether you choose to read it is up to you. I expect your local library will have it - unless you live in Texas or Arizona. wink

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      1. mommy0f2angels profile image58
        mommy0f2angelsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        No thank you..... I think I'll pass on that one.

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        1. profile image50
          paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Hi friends

          I think Richard Dawkins is himself deluded.

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    2. profile image53
      (Q)posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Critical reviews of that book show Lee Strobel to be a liar and a fraud. He criticizes a number of people and groups without ever having interviewed them.

      The book is little more than a "pseudo-anthology of Evangelical scholarship...despite its utter failure to honestly engage contemporary critics of (Evangelical) Christian apologetics."

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  18. nikki1 profile image59
    nikki1posted 12 years ago

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdpyoLOXCk8
    This is what God is/means, in my opinion.

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  19. earnestshub profile image83
    earnestshubposted 12 years ago

    Jesus never said anything at all actually! smile

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  20. Nady profile image69
    Nadyposted 12 years ago

    agree

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  21. profile image0
    WizardOfOzposted 12 years ago

    <image snipped>

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    1. profile image0
      Deborah Sextonposted 12 years ago

      WizardOfOz
      **********************************
      That picture is disgusting and disrespectful

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    2. profile image0
      Deborah Sextonposted 12 years ago

      He did say he is the son of God.
      John 10:36
      Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
      He had to be careful because he didn't want to die before he fulfilled all the prophecy about him

      The scripture old and new records Yahshua.
      Scripture is a book of History.

      If Yahshua is Metaphorical so are we
      Everything isn't a figure of speech.


      All of the Apostles said over and over that Yahshua is the son of God.

      1 John 4:15
      Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

      The reason He was the son is because he overcome. He was in Flesh and didn't sin. Just like we will be if we overcome
      Revelation 21:7
      He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

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      1. Disappearinghead profile image60
        Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        If Jesus is not divine being by so by dint of being the Son of God, then we are still in our sin. his sacrifice can only have value if He is by His very nature God.

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        1. profile image0
          Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          You are still in sin if you yourself don't fulfill the law.
          Yahshua showed us we can fulfill the law even in the flesh
          Because he did.

          He did not say we did not have to fulfill the law because he did.

          Paul taught that.

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          1. Disappearinghead profile image60
            Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            If you wish me to fullfill the law, do you mean that I am not permitted to work on a Sabbath, must observe Jewish rites and ceremonies, not allowed to eat a bacon sandwich or wear women's clothing?

            No I'm a gentile so do not have to fullfill a Jewish law. Jesus has taken care of that by fullfilling the law Himself. As long as I remain in Him and He remains in me, that's all I need concern myself with as everything else flows from that.

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            1. profile image0
              Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              *********************************************
              You are obligated to fulfill God's Law.
              You are not obligated to fulfill the covenant of Circumcision

              Show me where Yahshua said you do not have to live by the law.

              Do not quote Paul. Paul taught his new gospel of Grace. It is a stumbling block for those who do not study scripture and the meaning.
              Saying God forgive me and save me, does not give you the freedom to transgress the law. It does not give you immunity.

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        2. profile image50
          paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Hi friend Disappearinghead

          Yes; your sins are there with you.Atonement was was a cover invented by Paul to allure the sheep into his invented theology to derail from the way of Jesus.

          Please don't anyone rely on any atonement; do repent for the sins and ask forgiveness as per the OT.

          The Christians don't have to kill Jesus for their sins; Jesus is not a scapegoat for anybody, please. He had a right to co-exist being no god only son of Adam or man.

          I only express sincerly my faith; others may happily differ with me with sound reason, if any

          Thanks

          I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

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          1. Disappearinghead profile image60
            Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            You speak from an Islamic view that no one has assurance of fogiveness from sin in this life. You hope - as that is all you have - that your good deeds will outweigh you sins when you appear before Allah.

            Jesus is the atoning sacrifice, the Temple veil was torn in two, and now we can boldy approach the throne of grace making our appeals directly to God Himself with no intermediary. That is peace in this life.

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            1. profile image0
              Twenty One Daysposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              ( D, he/she is a sock puppet )

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              1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
                ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                (James, I'm so not in the mood for this but hi!)

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                1. profile image0
                  Twenty One Daysposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  (Hi, Ceci.)

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              2. Disappearinghead profile image60
                Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Ah. Thanks mate. Any idea of whose hand is up its arse?

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            2. profile image0
              Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              ***********************************************
              Yes if for any reason you had to break the Law to do good you have forgiveness. But you can't go out and break the law again.

              You do not have immunity.

              You are not saved until you endure till the end.

              You can not commit fornication, eat food offered to idols, consume blood, eat things strangled, or break the ten commandments.

              If you do, you are not of God

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              1. aguasilver profile image68
                aguasilverposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Hang on, these prohibitions "fornication, eat food offered to idols, consume blood, eat things strangled" (the only ones mentioned in the new covenant) were agreed by Paul, he whom you disregard..... the ten commandments you have added yourself, and besides as 'non jews' the gentiles were only ever under the seven Noahide laws

                ....and I guess when you stop transgressing these 'laws' you are back in the fold of Grace again...

                Is it the Sabbath that troubles you?

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                1. Paraglider profile image88
                  Paragliderposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  How about black pudding - is that OK? Given that it is basically dried blood & spices

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                  1. aguasilver profile image68
                    aguasilverposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Definitely no black pudding!

                    Can't stand it anyway, I'm a southerner!

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                    1. Paraglider profile image88
                      Paragliderposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                      So fish & chip shops all over Scotland are selling passports to hell? Not bad for a couple of quid!

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                  2. profile image0
                    Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    No, it is not Okay

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                    1. Paraglider profile image88
                      Paragliderposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                      But it's sheep's blood, not pork smile

                      Seriously though - there's nothing wrong with a properly cooked black pudding. It is perfectly wholesome and v. tasty.

                      Nearly as good as haggis.

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                  3. profile image0
                    Twenty One Daysposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    glider, according to the New Coven, there is nothing forbidden from us -which doesn't mean a free for all, just simple common sense eating. But even so, under the anointing, nothing can harm the body. Imagine it like an instant purifier of light energy. It isn't what we eat that "defiles" us, it is the negative words/actions we regurgitate that do. Hence the clique: a dog returns to its own vomit...

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                2. profile image0
                  Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  You're wrong Read acts again with a clear eye.
                  Don't use Paul's quotes to prove anything to me,
                  since he was a false prophet
                  Nothing troubles me, I keep the law

                  People want to believe Paul because like him, they can't stop sinning.
                  Why don't you read Matthew and 1&2 John

                  1 John 2

                  3. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

                  4. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

                  5. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

                  6. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked

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                  1. Disappearinghead profile image60
                    Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Do you seriously obey all 600 odd Mosaic laws, making every effort to daily watch yourself lest you slip up?

                    When Jesus was asked which was the greatest commandment, He responded by saying to love God with all your heart.....etc and to love your neighbour as yourself. The entire law is summed up in these commandments.

                    So with that in mind a gentile need not follow the law but simply follow Christ and the guidelines given by Peter when asked if the gentiles should submit to the law.

                    Personnally, I don't like black pudding; but I like a medium rare steak. I sense no conviction of sin when I see blood oozing out.

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                    1. profile image0
                      Twenty One Daysposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                      ODD THING, DH, that 'recommendation' is from someone who boldly and almost verbally-violently refutes everything Paul said and taught as 'false doctrine'. Sounds a bit split tongued, if you asked me -which I know you didn't.

                      ps, how you doing?

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    3. TruthDebater profile image53
      TruthDebaterposted 12 years ago

      Jesus is just a distraction to control and keep peoples minds busy while the government collects the taxes. It works. thanks

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    4. LeanMan profile image82
      LeanManposted 12 years ago

      Never met the man, so will never know what he did or did not say......

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    5. Jerami profile image57
      Jeramiposted 12 years ago

      (Q) wrote:
      Simple logic, you can NEVER know what your god is really thinking about you or what plans he has for you. If you go off making claims you are saved, he might just look upon that as being rather presumptuous and contemptible, and send you straight away to the fiery hole.
      ======================

         You may not know it  but I think about that a lot.

        Heard a preacher talking about the fact that he was the most humble person that he has ever known...  for an hour and a half he preached on his humbleness?
        Just goes to show that we do not know what we do not know.


          YA KNOW ?

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      1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
        ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        au contraire,

        you can know if you've been saved from your own stupidity. To be saved means your destructive patterns are finito.

        it is a very subjective thing. If a person feels G-d saved him, it is entirely his reality.

        I feel that an external measure of who is saved is the most ludicrous of all. How does one get saved and from what? Well someone feels saved from his own hell, how about that? And hell could be just feeling as if groups of people how the power to say whether or not you're saved. Or it could be just being addicted to patterns that give you no joy like disagreeing with people you don't understand.

        You feel saved, you're saved. Now if you feel lost, you can go to church everyday or you could be richard dawkins and memorize mathematical theories...but if you can't make sense of it, and your place in what you do, well...welcome to hell.

        as for your preacher, well. he's probably just trying to tell you that he practices what he preaches...which inadvertently made him look like a fool.

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    6. profile image50
      paarsurreyposted 12 years ago

      Jesus Never says that he is the son of the God!!He never meant it literally.

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      1. profile image0
        eternaltreasuresposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        check my reply. I put a lot of verses as proof from the Bible. What or where is YOUR proof?

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    7. abht profile image60
      abhtposted 12 years ago

      I didn't gone through bible so i can't say that. but he was the son of GOD

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    8. profile image0
      tybell74posted 12 years ago

      Wow. This topic has definately sparked alot of interest and debate. I only have a few things to say. One, if you do not believe in Christ or that He existed, why is there documented proof of His birth and death be the Romans, whom at that time kept records of all inhabitants for tax purposes and why does Jesus of Nazareth have a death certificate? Don't believe it then look it up. Second He pronounces many times that He is the son of the Father and also says that He is the son of man. However, I challenge you to read the entire text and not just bits and pieces of the Bible for your arguments. I would also like to say that yes, Jesus died for our sins. He sacrificed His life for our eternal life. That does not free you from following his commandments. You still have to follow the commandments that Jesus layed out as well as those in,for instance, the 10 commandments. If we did not have laws to follow then we would be like the people of the world. Sin is sin in the eyes of God, and no sin is greater than the other. Grace and forgiveness that comes from true repentance is the only way to salvation through Jesus.

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      1. profile image0
        Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        **********************************
        You are absolutely correct
        And there were census takers

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    9. Diane Inside profile image77
      Diane Insideposted 12 years ago

      Wow, nothing gets people going more than the subject of religion. I don't understand why anyone would ask this question. What does it matter if Jesus actually said he was the son of God. Mary was told by an Angel that she would give birth to a son, it was emaculate conception. If he is not Gods son then who's. Just basic biology here. Every living soul on the planet had two parents, a mother and a father. If Mary conceived a child but was a virgin then how is this possible except by God. So to even pose a question about what Jesus said, it doesn't matter. That was already established 9 months before he was born.

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      1. Paraglider profile image88
        Paragliderposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        That's using one article of faith to justify another. Your prerogative of course, but it won't pass any test of logic.

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        1. profile image0
          Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Who cares. Man's logic (or reasoning abilities) doesn't stand up to the things of God

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          1. pisean282311 profile image65
            pisean282311posted 12 years agoin reply to this

            logic is important aspect..anything which doesnot fit logic is either half baked or still left to be explored..without logic humans would have not reached where it has today..we would still be in jungle..logic and curiosity is what makes us humans...

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            1. profile image0
              Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              I didn't say logic isn't important

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    10. Paraglider profile image88
      Paragliderposted 12 years ago

      And that's doing the same thing.  There's really no point to these discussions, but it's lunchtime and I fancied a break from systems drawings.

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    11. earnestshub profile image83
      earnestshubposted 12 years ago

      As stated previously, Jesus never said anything. Not one word. smile

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      1. aguasilver profile image68
        aguasilverposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        I guess you were there then, if you can categorically state this?

        Or is there no burden of proof when you speak?

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      2. pisean282311 profile image65
        pisean282311posted 12 years agoin reply to this

        what is your basis of making this statement?..i mean do you mean to say that jesus never existed?

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        1. earnestshub profile image83
          earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Yes. Jesus did not need to exist. The stories are repeats anyway.
          Jesus wrote nothing. Others wrote about what he was supposed to have said. Not one word from Jesus ever.

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          1. pisean282311 profile image65
            pisean282311posted 12 years agoin reply to this

            okie. ..i got that..

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          2. aguasilver profile image68
            aguasilverposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Like I said, does this mean you were there?

            Or is the burden of proof different for you?

            Guess you missed my first post.... smile

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            1. earnestshub profile image83
              earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              There is no proof for Jesus. Simple. smile

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              1. aguasilver profile image68
                aguasilverposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                There's a whole lot MORE written proof that Christ existed than there is for (say) Cesare or even you!

                Plus I doubt anyone will be talking about you or me two thousand years hence.

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                1. Rishy Rich profile image74
                  Rishy Richposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  There's a whole lot MORE written proof that Christ existed than there is for (say) Cesare or even you! .... - Not outside Bible. The historical Christos doesnt match with your Son of God!

                  Plus I doubt anyone will be talking about you or me two thousand years hence... - Plus I doubt anyone will be talking about Jesus either two thousand years hence smile

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                  1. profile image0
                    Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Well, no because you're not like Yahshua so you will be forgotten.
                    Heal the blind and walk on water. You'll be remembered.

                    The Jews passed many things down through Oral Tradition.

                    And Rome had census takers back then.

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                    1. Randy Godwin profile image59
                      Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                      Was Jesus included in any of the census reports?

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                  2. Rishy Rich profile image74
                    Rishy Richposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Rishy Rich is a pen name. I prefer not to disclose information about me, specially to religious fanatics who are considered dangerous to open minded thinkers.

                    & as I said before, I may not heal the blind or might never walk on water but Im definitely much much more educated than your imaginary savior.

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                    1. profile image0
                      Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                      I am not a fanatic.
                      When I see people post stuff they have misunderstood I try to point out what it is truly saying. They post something from the Bible incorrectly I say so.
                      If a person makes medical statements that are incorrect I say so.
                      It just so happens there are more religious post.

                      Oh don't want to discuss it? I see, I SEE

                      My first name is Deborah and Deborah Sexton is my pen name.
                      My last name is Hebrew.

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            2. profile image0
              Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              You Judge Earnest and yet you hold the doctrine of Balaam

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    12. profile image0
      Deborah Sextonposted 12 years ago

      Aguasilver did you ever read this one or is Paul's writings the only books you read?
      1 John 3:4
      Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

      And Yahshua said MAN, not Gentile, not Jew, but MAN (Mankind)

      Matthew 4:4

      But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

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    13. profile image0
      Deborah Sextonposted 12 years ago

      Paul taught it was Okay to sin. This is his law of Grace/ Gospel Of Grace.
      This was only taught by him, for a stumbling block.

      1 Corinthians 10:23
      All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
      Romans 3:27
      Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

      Paul said His mind serves God's Law, but his body the law of Sin
      There isn't two different laws
      Romans 7:25
      I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

      He said there are two minds and one is the enemy of God
      Romans 8:7
      Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be

      Yahshua said have no part in sin
      Matthew 5:30
      And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell

      Paul said works doesn't matter just the law of faith. No one else spoke a law of faith that replaced doing good deeds.

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    14. profile image53
      ~Shakila~posted 12 years ago

      i thought we r all God's children.... because he is the one who created us

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      1. profile image0
        Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Actually God created Adam and the Hosts but we were created by our parents. That's why we are called the daughters and sons of man.

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    15. Jerami profile image57
      Jeramiposted 12 years ago

      Randy Godwin said You have no more knowledge about god than anyone else here.  Live with it!

        I know that he likes BBQ, A Cold beer, and sitting back looking at the hawks, wood peckers squirls and listening to the song birds.  I know that sometimes when he gets relaxed that he gets quiet and don't say much.
        It's almost like he reads your mind.

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      1. Randy Godwin profile image59
        Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Your god is whatever you want him to be, Jerami!  Too bad others do not like this idea.  They want you to like their idea of god better.  LOL!   How are you doin?

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        1. Jerami profile image57
          Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I'm just getting older all the time.

            You have heard it before...
          If I had known I'd last this long I wudda took better care of my body.

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          1. Randy Godwin profile image59
            Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Well, it's better than the alternative!  With age comes wisdom, they say!  But "they" aren't as old as we are yet.  LOL!

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            1. Jerami profile image57
              Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Seems like wisdom runs in about a 5 year cycle.

                I'm always looking back to about five years ago and sayind......... That sure was stupid..  I'm glad I got over  that now I am wise

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    16. profile image0
      Twenty One Daysposted 12 years ago

      There is no cost for anything from Him. The price He desired to & did pay -on our behalf/instead of us- is something all together different. This is a weight of false teaching; a stumbling block; a useless burden; a shadow cast by a dim light; a dark cloud.

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      1. SpanStar profile image60
        SpanStarposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        I'm not sure if these comments of yours are meant for me or not but I posted in the wrong spot I want to post for Q.

        I would address your question but I'm not sure I full understand what you're getting at so I not say anything.

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      2. profile image0
        Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        A lie of Darkness. Wake Up

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        1. profile image0
          Twenty One Daysposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          there IS no cost -unless you have found a form of payment greater than His? I don't think even you can conjure that kind of currency, love. So to you (plural) there is no cost, price or payment. If there was, not one human would make it. So, yes it is a lie of darkness to assume we could pay for our crimes in any form. This is why there was mercy and sacrifice on his part. The rest is up to us, bearing -and I quote- the burden of light. -James.

          Edit:
          So long as you continue to snuff off the light, the longer you live in darkness. Not your (plural) perspective of light, but lights perspective of itself in you (plural).

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    17. SpanStar profile image60
      SpanStarposted 12 years ago

      It seems to me we are communication different things or at least I think we are.  The piece I just wrote has to do with the cost Jesus paid so that our souls are sent to hell-those of us who want to accept this gift.  I know mankind can never afford to enter the gates of Heaven otherwise we wouldn't need Jesus.

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    18. profile image0
      Deborah Sextonposted 12 years ago

      We will, all one day know for sure

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    19. earnestshub profile image83
      earnestshubposted 12 years ago

      A fairy stands above the world, who made the universe.
      It knows the cyst that's on my bum, the money in my purse
      It sees the children's suffering but doesn't lift a hand
      ... too busy finding car keys for the zealous in it's band.

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      1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
        ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        your brain knows that you have a cyst in your bum, but wait, it's so far from your bum! how is that possible

        if the cosmos has a brain, you wouldn't know. because you are a little neurochemical molecule inside a gigantic neuron.  Youre just little molecule swimming towards a synaptic gap thinking its the end of your existence.

        You're too small, too insignificant to know what is and what is not possible.

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        1. earnestshub profile image83
          earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Unlike your towering self. smile

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          1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
            ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            the point is earnest, the reality that we are operating on is too limited to make sweeping conclusions about the nature of existence.

            this is not about who knows better but who has the audacity to admit the limits of what can and cannot be known.

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            1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
              ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Jesus is not G-d. He is a historical figure that became archetypal. Meaning, his identity became a medium to convey universal truths about the human consciousness. The Archetype of the son of G-d is just a mere reference to our ability to create our own reality, to master our own destiny.

              So fixating on whether he existed or not is a literal waste of time.  He exists now in the hearts and minds of many people because he is needed. People need to hold on to that marker of transcendence so that they can psychologically aim their consciousness towards that level.

              If you slay this myth, another similar one will emerge. Human Beings need a marker for where the wish to evolve to next.

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    20. 2besure profile image82
      2besureposted 12 years ago

      Better than that, God called him His son!


      Matthew 3:16  "And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

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    21. earnestshub profile image83
      earnestshubposted 12 years ago

      Yep god is a riot!

      When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are about to enter and occupy, he will clear away many nations ahead of you: the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites. These seven nations are all more powerful than you.  When the LORD your God hands these nations over to you and you conquer them, you must completely destroy them.  Make no treaties with them and show them no mercy.  Do not intermarry with them, and don't let your daughters and sons marry their sons and daughters.  They will lead your young people away from me to worship other gods.  Then the anger of the LORD will burn against you, and he will destroy you.   (Deuteronomy 7:1-4 NLT)

      Luv that sense of humour! lol

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      1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
        ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        god is a metaphor for the elementary idea of man.

        in those days, "G-d" consciousness was victory over enemies because enemies literally came into their homes and raped their children and wives.

        It's myth. Don't join in on the literal camp. If you want to transcend it, understand it. There is a reason why its there in the bible.

        The faithful read it and transmute it to overcoming "enemies" of the psyche, personifications of things that overcome them. It's G-d is on your side sort of storyline. It helps people internalize the idea, that when your desire is strong, the forces of chance favor you. And you may not believe that now. but desire attracts serendipity by virtue of probability.

        If you continue to operate in the level of the literal, then you are no better than the religionists you abhor.

        I'm just saying that all these literal nonsense is causing all the wars you abhor. transcend it. Move up the ladder of everyday consciousness and see that there is an organ developing in your middle forehead getting a clue.

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    22. ceciliabeltran profile image64
      ceciliabeltranposted 12 years ago

      you guys think that the a nursery rhyme is like how the children's book draws them

      "there was an old woman who lived in a shoe...she had so many children she didn't know what to do, so she gave them some soup without any bread, and whipped them all soundly and sent them to bed"

      illustration: old woman inside a real shoe
      what it really means: poverty can bring out the mean mom

      "rubadub-dub three men in a tub. and who do you think they be?
      the butcher, the baker, the candlestick maker. turn them out knaves all three"

      illustration: the butcher, baker and candlestick maker in a tub smiling.
      what it really means: homosexuality is the secret of ordinary people you see everyday.


      last but not the least:

      humpty dumpty sat on a wall
      humpty dumpty had a great fall
      all the king's horses and all the king's men
      couldn't put humpty together again.

      illustration: egg with face, hands and feet and a crown sitting on an actual wall.
      what it means: the great fall of the universal truth fragmented. all efforts of the wise cannot bring this truth back together. (this is true, several sources say that that is what it means)


      My point is. myth has the ability to speak to the psyche of the unlearned. those who are ignorant of the higher mind. Myth imparts the wisdom in symbolic form. when the time comes that the psyche can understand it, it unfolds to reveal meaning. In the meantime the child or the childlike mind stores the images in his/her head and it stays there because the imagery is recognized by the consciousness as important. It does not know why. but it keeps it on active file until its ready to be decoded.

      this is not spirituality...it's depth psychology.

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      1. Randy Godwin profile image59
        Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Do you actually think no one but you understands the basis for some of the nursery rhymes?  If not, why do you find it necessary to explain their real meanings here?  Just because some of us do not place substantial stock in myth and metaphor does not mean we do not understand your posts.

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        1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
          ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          i actually believe that what you see in nursery rhymes you don't see in religious texts.

          you tend to see it as something threatening. so if you understand it, let the children sing it until they understand it.

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          1. Randy Godwin profile image59
            Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I do not see biblical scripture as threatening, no more than words in any novel.  But I would feel threatened if someone believed the writings of Stephen King and led their lives according to his book and tried to convince others the scenarios in his book represented factual events.

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            1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
              ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              do not blame people's insanity on nursery rhymes. a lot of people are insane. they are detached from the difference between symbolism from daily life.

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    23. ceciliabeltran profile image64
      ceciliabeltranposted 12 years ago

      hey I have an idea for a hub!

      report
    24. profile image0
      WizardOfOzposted 12 years ago

      I spoke to God last night.  He told me that religion is a farce and that all followers are in discord with the higher purpose.  The Church should repent it sins and disband, admit its wrongs and be forgiven.

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      1. tantrum profile image60
        tantrumposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        That's a lie ! I spoke with God this morning. He said he loved Churches.they keep Christians apart from him. He doesn't want the real heaven crammed with religious people. Not fun ! lol

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        1. profile image0
          WizardOfOzposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          He did sound a little tipsy or maybe I forgot my hearing aid?

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          1. tantrum profile image60
            tantrumposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            well, you tell me ! big_smile

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    25. Jerami profile image57
      Jeramiposted 12 years ago

      WizardOfOz wrote:
      I spoke to God last night.  He told me that religion is a farce and that all followers are in discord with the higher purpose.  The Church should repent it sins and disband, admit its wrongs and be forgiven.

      tantrum wrote   That's a lie ! I spoke with God this morning. He said he loved Churches.they keep Christians apart from him. He doesn't want the real heaven crammed with religious people. Not fun !


         Jerami says..   That might be funny if there wasn't some truth to it...    Faith in God don't = religion.

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      1. tantrum profile image60
        tantrumposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        lol

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        1. Jerami profile image57
          Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          started to do a rant about this fact on another thread.

          but in a way I guess that that is what I been doing.
          Nobody cares.

          Global warming, earthquakes, volcano eruptions, now an oil well emptying itself in the ocean, Financial collapse. And in a few months we will hear about the ash fall out in Europe from the volcano eruption causing crop failures. U.S. will Probably be hit with another supper hurricane this summer.

            The closer we get to the brick wall at the end of the alley the faster we go. 
             But hay  ...it was a fun ride.

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          1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
            ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I'd rather talk about that to be honest. I just don't like certain people accusing me of claiming to be Pope Cecilia

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            1. Jerami profile image57
              Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              I've probably been called a lot of things.

                 Name calling is just one form of distraction.

                When they ignore something long enough it becomes a myth in their mind. So it must not be a real threat.

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              1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
                ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                a myth is a version of truth.

                but I know what you mean. what you focus on expands. true true.

                But just the same a Rebbe is a Tzaddik. A master. these are the real kabbalists. If you meet someone who claims to be a kabbalist and he (and most importantly she) does not have a long beard and not surrounded by very protective Jewish people,

                clap your hands in front of their faces three times and maybe they'll wake up from that dream.

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                1. Jerami profile image57
                  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  I am not versed on kabbalist or a Tzaddik ..
                  I can only assume it has something to do with knowing truth?

                   

                    I gotta go ....  Later

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                2. tantrum profile image60
                  tantrumposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Clap your hands! I thought I was a Kabbalist !

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          2. tantrum profile image60
            tantrumposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            INDEED ! big_smile

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    26. ceciliabeltran profile image64
      ceciliabeltranposted 12 years ago

      by the way depth psychology is not philosophizing. don't get your soups mixed up.

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    27. TinaMarieTad profile image66
      TinaMarieTadposted 12 years ago

      Matthew 3:17
      And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

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    28. Randy Godwin profile image59
      Randy Godwinposted 12 years ago

      Grabs popcorn and beer. Prepares for religious cat fight!

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      1. Mark Knowles profile image58
        Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        big_smile

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      2. Misha profile image63
        Mishaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Grabs wine and cheese smile

        report
        1. Randy Godwin profile image59
          Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Okay Misha!  You have more class than me, but it is 108 degrees here in south Georgia and wine gets hot and cheese melts too easily!  Skoal!

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          1. Misha profile image63
            Mishaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            LOL That really was not about class Randy. I don't think I would go for wine and cheese at 108F lol

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            1. Mark Knowles profile image58
              Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Going with wine and beer. big_smile

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              1. Misha profile image63
                Mishaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                97% spirit Mark, nothing short of it tongue

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            2. Randy Godwin profile image59
              Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              I know, Misha!  But no one has ever accused me of having class anyway!  LOL!  Yep, too hot to work outdoors much today.  Enjoy the catfight!  Ha!  Now we know why the bible says women should be silent concerning religious matters! (joking ladies)

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          2. ceciliabeltran profile image64
            ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            fun times boys. lol I mention anything Kabbalah and Pope Deborah here gets territorial lol

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            1. Randy Godwin profile image59
              Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Pope or poop?  Can't make up my mind who to pull for!

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              1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
                ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                I'd go for whatever smells like it.
                lol

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                1. Randy Godwin profile image59
                  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  I do not doubt that for a minute!

                  report
            2. Randy Godwin profile image59
              Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              I'll bet you would do the same if she invaded your "myth" territory!  LOL!

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              1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
                ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                not really...myth is great in that you can't go wrong.

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                1. Randy Godwin profile image59
                  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  I assume you've never watched mythbusters before!

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                  1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
                    ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    well, that is a distortion of the definition of myth. myth are cultural stories that persist.

                    report
                    1. Randy Godwin profile image59
                      Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                      I was joking, of course!  LOL!  What does culture mean?

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    29. ceciliabeltran profile image64
      ceciliabeltranposted 12 years ago

      And for the record. I've been studying Kabbalah for more than 20 years. NOT that its a contest. sorry if I won.

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      1. Mark Knowles profile image58
        Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Go for it. Me and Mrs Jones here do not get along at all - in fact - when she comes to Greece - which is only a ferry ride away from Italy - which is the same as being in France - her husband the Rabbi is going to come and chastise me................ so - I am keen to know how much better educated in the Kaballah you are than she is. wink

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        1. Randy Godwin profile image59
          Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Boy are you in trouble!  I never heard of a Rabbi kicking someone's butt!  Watch out for his circumcision knife!  LOL!

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        2. profile image0
          Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Mark, you don't get along with anyone.
          I am not going to argue with you. When I argue it is over something with substance. Not over ravioli
          Already went to Greece.

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          1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
            ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            kabbalist is not you and me that is not substance or an argument. its denial of facts.

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          2. ceciliabeltran profile image64
            ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Pope Debbie, Mark makes more logical sense than you any day of the week. And that's not even a compliment for Mark.

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            1. profile image0
              Twenty One Daysposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              just had the thought of Al Pacino from devil's advocate as a Rabbi:

              "Vhat? Their comin` out, Chakrah's blazing!".

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              1. profile image0
                Twenty One Daysposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                what`d i tell ya..blazin` ! big_smile

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                1. profile image0
                  Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  I've never taught Chakras or written about them. I made a comment  they exist in medical terms on a forum because in medical terms they do exist.

                  You're a Blazin yourself. Don't start your babble with me T.O.

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                  1. profile image0
                    Twenty One Daysposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    "Don't start your babble with me T.O."
                    You sound like an old crabby wife or defunct school mistress like that. lol Made me actually laugh. Thank you.

                    .. little whipper snapper...lol

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            2. profile image0
              Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              I was speaking to Mark.

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              1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
                ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                and I was speaking to you. So are you going to explain why you were concerned about AVINU and ABA and ALEF and OX? Or not because I got to go.

                you can't stay on topic? must the topic always swing to your Rebbeness?

                report
        3. ceciliabeltran profile image64
          ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          lol as I said, its not a contest. she can choose whatever kabbalah content she wants to fixate on. it's like several libraries of esoteric thought.

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        4. ceciliabeltran profile image64
          ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          lol that one sank in just now...lol I'm a little slow today.

          report
      2. tantrum profile image60
        tantrumposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Really ? Then tell me what is the secret path of Daath.

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        1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
          ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          lol missy, way of life remember? we can have a discussion on Daat after you come back from Binah Consciousness.

          report
          1. tantrum profile image60
            tantrumposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            You don't know, right ?  So Binah consciousness ? You don't even know what that means

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          2. profile image0
            Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Binah?
            What Kabbalah do you study?

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            1. tantrum profile image60
              tantrumposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              She thinks that Kabbalah is only the Tree of Life. A diagram. Remember? So she have studied 20 years the tree of life ? Maybe she studied Madonna's Kabbalah ! lol

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              1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
                ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Yes. I have studied the Tree of life for 20 years and that is not even enough time to fully understand it.

                Binah consciousness is a state when the limiting of the endless light become infinite, and you cannot return to Malkhut.

                Translation. If you get lost in the esoteric without returning to what it means in this realm that means you are trapped in Binah consciousness...check your Zohar it's there.

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                1. tantrum profile image60
                  tantrumposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  No. I'm afraid that's not in the Zohar. Maybe you didn't understand. Binah conciousness can never be achieved by a mere mortal. You can't. I can't.

                  report
              2. profile image0
                Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                She has really got to be a slow learner.
                But she knows more than anyone

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                1. ceciliabeltran profile image64
                  ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Uhmm... So this is the way of life you are claiming to be from Kabbalah? Lilith will be proud.

                  report
        2. tantrum profile image60
          tantrumposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          @ Cecilia

          there's only one word that describes the secret path of Daath.Say it and I will believe you

          report
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