why do people find it so hard to believe there is a God? or that there is a supernatural realm? yet we here about demons and supernatural activity and feel a kind of natural drawing towards these things and I guess we dismiss it because we fear the unknown... yet our spirits know its real!!! anyone explain????
The problem with narrow-minded thinking is that you believe in nonsense in the first place.
I have heard about demons, etc., but I have never seen any. Therefore I can't confirm they exist. God doesn't have to exist to explain something else that probably doesn't exist.
You can't see air or gravity but they exist. You can see the evidence thereof. And there is also evidence to suggest and confirm a supernatural reality. Ignoring that these don't exist doesn't make them not. They are still there.
Air can be seen, felt, and measured. The effects of gravity are seen, felt and can be measured.
Supernatural reality is an oxymoron. I do note you've not presented objective supporting evidence.
You're free to believe any nonsense you like, but there's no reason to take you seriously.
The problem with the empirical mindset is that it puts a limitation on reality.
The human being is a being of flesh and reason. The flesh is related to the senses, whereas reason is related to intellectuality.
It is not irrational to believe in God, for the simple fact that the evidence of the senses, the world all around us, appeals to our reason as to suggest that the world is rational; and that, by way of reasoning, that rationality is the product of a Creative Reason; this Creative Reason which is infinite and perfect, we call God.
"The problem with the empirical mindset is that it puts a limitation on reality."
I'm flat astonished you posted this mind bending bit of nonsense.
It doesn't matter what 'mindset' you have. If you were to step twenty feet in front of a swiftly moving semi/lorry you'd be turned into jam. That is reality.
Reason is related to objective supporting evidence.
God is flat irrational regardless of your word salad final paragraph. Belief--the way you are using it--is irrational.
If you disagree, you're more than welcome to provide objective supporting evidence in the contrary.
Why do people of this century still believe in such absurd craps? Yes we do hear rubbish stories here & there, but unlike a feeble mind, a rational thinker should be able to differentiate between facts & fiction!
What you are assuming is quite the opposite of reality. Its the fear of the unknown that leads to believe in heaven, God, angels & many fantasy stories which could never be validated by any scientific measurements. Its our fear of death, fear of non-existence that led to built many stories that has nothing to do with reality.
You said: "...yet our spirits know its real!!!!" Can you define what exactly 'Spirit' means? Theres not a single universally accepted definition of spirit, soul or God, because no one knows what exactly these words mean, no one proved they existed!
You find it hard not to believe in these craps?!! Well 10000 years ago, people used to think that Rain happens when God takes a shower or a Goddess pee on them. And 4000 years ago, people still believed that God loves to have sex with human females, theres a giant who is carrying this planet on his shoulder! But I suppose you dont believe in such craps anymore, do you? & I bet 200 years from now, your future generation will not believe in the nonsense you believe now.
Rishy Rich---not surprised to read what you say in this "progressive and extreme liberal thinking world"we are forced to live in.VERY SAD and disappointing that you,and unfortunately too may like yourself,have never really either been exposed to the Truth,or want to completely deny it.
Your comments,which apparently reflect your thinking and philosophy about our Universe,Planet,World and Society-makes for one of the unfortunate and sad definitions of "tunnel vision."
I don't know if you,and those who believe and think like yourself-have ever seriously made the effort and taken the time to objectively investigate why are those of us-DO KNOW that there is positively a "Supreme Being",God,or Heavenly Father-as this Supreme Being has been addressed for over 2000 years.During this time-literally "millions" of human beings have found,believed in and been Blessed by this "Supreme Being"(irregardless of which title/name he is known by).
Most all of these human beings from every corner of our Planet(possibly other planets,that we do not know of) either have some kind knowledge and possible belief in,and/or there are those who are 100% positive in their belief in,and knowledge of-because they have what is known as the "Holy Spirit"and been spoken to by the "Holy Ghost."
As you indicated in your comments-you,and some like yourself-do not believe that there is a "Supreme Being",or the "Holy Spirit" and "Holy Ghost." I think you said because this person and these Spiritual emotions and experiences have "never"been able to be "scientifically measured or proven." That is True-because it is "man"who has created and interpreted his own kind of Science-that which he/she can see,smell,feel,measure,record,etc.So-if whom those us who not only believe,know and have undisputed Faith in a Supreme Being,the Holy Spirit and the Holy Ghost-don't measure this Supreme Being and His
Spiritual Powers/Gifts/Blessings according to man's scientific philosophy-then according to you,and yours-"they just don't exist",and in your "less than civilized and educated wording"they,and these Beings are just "c"
The Supreme Being,His Blessings and Overwhelming Powers are not,and cannot ever be measured by "scientific means." This comparison,or thinking-is even farther apart than "apples and oranges."
To try to compare what can be measured "scientifically",and what is understood and believed of the Supreme Being is impossible.
You probably have heard the saying/phrase-"you wouldn't know------,even if a snake bit you!" Well-most people would know,sooner or later if a poisonous snake had bit them-----but if you did realize that you had been "bitten"by the knowledge and belief in the Supreme Being,and the Holy Spirit-the realization,understanding,knowledge of and hopefully the overwhelming feeling of the Holy Spirit-you and any one else then would not only feel the experience(s)-but wouldn't be able to any longer doubt or deny that a Supreme Being exists,and His Powers and Blessings he's provided for millions of years,and perhaps before.
However,you and those who think and believe as you do-will continue to
unbelieving,disillusioned,ignorant and un-needlessly deprived of the greatest Gift and Blessing that any human being can have,here on Earth and thereafter.
Those like you-either never know,or find out perhaps too late- which the "Supreme Being" is sad about-and has all along desired just the opposite for every human being ever created.
I will pray that you,and those who share your doubt and lack of the Truth,will at some time-learn differently-and still take the opportunity to have the Blessings of the Supreme Being that you so adamantly doubt and dispute. Amen!
lolz. What is the source of your greatest gift called 'Truth'? Reading Bible doesn't count.
Truth can only be realized through logic & critical analysis, not blind faith. & in terms of logic, your Bible doesnt stand a chance. Just one last word-
"Faith is often the boast of the mind which is too lazy to investigate..."
Rishy Rich---not surprised to read what you say in this "progressive and extreme liberal thinking world"we are forced to live in.VERY SAD and disappointing that you,and unfortunately too may like yourself,have never really either been exposed to the Truth,or want to completely deny it."
OH NO! It's a Capital 'T' TRUTHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Yes, yes, you can drool all you want, but you'll still be laughed at by those who *can* and *do* think.
"Those like you-either never know,or find out perhaps too late- which the "Supreme Being" is sad about-and has all along desired just the opposite for every human being ever created."
Right on schedule! There's that empty threat which Christians just love to utter! Blasted craven fools. It also illustrates what's the base of their belief. They're terrified about the 'monster under the bed.'
" I will pray that you,and those who share your doubt and lack of the Truth,will at some time-learn differently-and still take the opportunity to have the Blessings of the Supreme Being that you so adamantly doubt and dispute. Amen!"
Nothing fails like prayer! I'll think for you. You're welcome. Dang these people are brain dead. [shaking head sadly]
The BD comment isn't an insult. Its an objective description of their actions.
The fact that humans can find natural explanations for the phenomena that surround them, in no way excludes the existence of the supernatural.
Rather, it precludes it; as the foundation of the intelligibility of the universe, is itself Reason. That is to say, there is a correspondence between the reason found in the universe and the reason that man possesses.
That correspondence is intelligibility, and is only possible if the world is the product of Divine Reason. Otherwise, the world would be meaningless and unintelligible.
What excludes this particular part of the supernatural is the total lack of evidence empirical or otherwise to support it's wild claims.
Show us proof of even one out of billions of daily prayers over the last 2,000 years that have been answered. None right?
If a story is truthful, why would it contain lies and threats? If a god was loving, why would it make threaten it's own creation and make war? If a story were true, why would it have more contradictions than a North Korean workshop manual? Hundreds of religions spawned from it's pages, none in agreement, all prepared to say they have the only truth.
It screams neurosis to me.
The bible is like the quoran, a repeat of all the psychotic god bothering that goes back to Ra.
There are hundreds of flood, jesus stories before the bible was written by a bunch of superstitious goat hearders.
Read something factual for a change, it helps to reduce the indoctrination required to swallow this crud.
Rishy Richposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this
Why do people of this century still believe in such absurd craps?"
A: Eternal Life.
People have a hard time believing in/there is a god for a multitude of reasons; some of which have already been addressed in other posts. My take is beyond the whole real/provable/rational debate is believing to some people is tantamount to giving up control and that's a bridge a lot of people can't/won't cross. Being in and having control is mostly a narcissistic myth; but like many things we really like that aren't true we want to believe in and so dismiss those don't agree.
My two cents worth anyway.
I am positive that to some degree you are correct in that some people can't won't give up control to change beliefs. I think there is more to it than that - many people simply require solid evidence to support belief and would accept such a change if offered that evidence. They won't accept the myths, stories and opinions as a reason to give up their control, but that doesn't mean they won't if they find evidence.
At the same time, the flip side of the coin also applies. There have been far more than a handful of immigrants to the US eventually return to their homeland because they can't handle the control and self made decisions that we require of our citizens. Similarly, believers require someone else to set up their ethical/moral system for them - they are afraid or convinced they can't do it themselves. They are not willing to take control of their own lives and accept the fact of their own responsibility. All the facts in the world won't convince them their belief is wrong as there are no hard facts to prove a negative. Possible evidence is ignored or ridiculed because of the fear and so change is nearly impossible.
Giving up control? LOLLLLLLL. Oh, boy. There's no reason to believe in the god drivel. You can come up with all the hand waving you like to avoid the fact.
According to your superstition; all are mere actors in a pointless play hitting their marks and speaking their lines as scripted eons ago when 'deity' ejaculated the universe into being.
This means I have zero choice in what I think, say, do, or type.
I find amusement in the fact that a person being theist doesn't bother me, but the opposite bothers many theists to no end.
ColetteDD2posted 7 weeks agoin reply to this
People have a hard time believing in/there is a god for a multitude of reasons;"
Reason. Exactly that. But then you go on to to not only dismiss the observation but 'shoot yourself in the foot.'
"some of which have already been addressed in other posts. My take is beyond the whole real/provable/rational debate is believing to some people is tantamount to giving up control and that's a bridge a lot of people can't/won't cross."
And you had been doing so well until now.
'Giving up control? To what? The Easter Bunny? Santa Claus? Your delusion is yours. You, personally, refuse to give up 'control' to; Tiamat the Dragon, Odin All-Father, Jove, Ra, and myriad other fantasy figures.
You've hoist yourself on your own 'petard' and are guilty of your own empty accusation. Hypocrisy.
"Being in and having control is mostly a narcissistic myth; but like many things we really like that aren't true we want to believe in and so dismiss those don't agree."
Which Christians like you commonly do and then daemonize and denigrate those who dare to indicate they lack belief in the Xian drooling idiocy.
"My two cents worth anyway."
It wasn't worth that much-seriously.
It is hard for people to believe in God, because most people don't read the Bible, or study the Bible. Most false books out there in the world make people believe there is no God. So many cults, false religions that tell people that they can do whatever their hearts desire and they can still get to heaven. Some say there is no heaven or hell, this is what people want to hear. They say the Bible is not true, they say the Bible was written by men and men have weaknesses, and these men wrote what they wanted to write. They themselves don't know the Bible is true, they don't know the Bible was written by men under the inspiration of God, which means God influenced their writing, God put His words in their minds for those who have not studied the Bible to understand that the Bible is the only true source of knowledge that can let people know Who God is.
Some people just simply don't believe what they can't see. Consider it does not cost you anything to have Faith in Our Creator. However, for some the value of believing in God is equal value to their pride, foolishness, and stubbornness.
Atheist believe themselves that they are intellectual individuals who know the answer to everything.
"why do people find it so hard to believe there is a God? or that there is a supernatural realm? yet we here about demons and supernatural activity and feel a kind of natural drawing towards these things and I guess we dismiss it because we fear the unknown... yet our spirits know its real!!! anyone explain????"
What's a 'God?' A clear and concise definition followed by objective supporting evidence for each claim along with dealing with the myriad begged questions and broken logic is?
Supernatural realm is an oxymoron. Why is it so hard for you to believe in the Justice League's[tm] Phantom Zone[tm]?
Demons, supernatural activity, spirits. There's no reason to consider them to have any validity.
let this speak for itslef
I don't know....I always blindly believed because I was taaught and brought up by a mother who is devout
then I met a boyfriend who tried everything he could to take it away from me
It was almost gone, but it didn't go away--I have it still but I get unmotivated in prayer and church lately because I've been really sick....
Now that I don't blindly believe , I can only believe on how prayer makes me FEEL .....and I really don't think this beautiful world just is an accident. I believe God tests people by requiring TRUST.
An omni character has no reason to test anything.
You people have no clue about your own superstition.
Yes, you blindly believe, but that's your prerogative.
Oh, don't forget to thank God for your illness.
1 Thessalonians 5:18 (King James Version)
18In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
Now that we are so well educated, and able to think critically, you'll find it increasingly difficult to find people who believe in God.
Although I don't think anyone can possibly understand it fully, some reasoning that might try to explain the existence of things 'supernatural' is far more convincing than any that might try to explain the existence of God.
even though he/she/it is improperly portrayed and is proven to be improperly portrayed does not prove gods non existence.
Portrayal - was I talking about that?
Whatever, it doesn't prove existence either.
The 'Creator' deity broken logic falsifies any Creator claim. So, no Eternal Life for you.
What is this "god" thing you speak of and tout as being?
You must first define "it" for us before we can consider a credible answer...:
I don't see anything odd about disbelief. If you've never had any experience with any of the things you mentioned, disbelief would seem to be the logical conclusion to the question of whether there was more than this.
I prefer the reality I can see, to wishful thinking.
Quite the reverse, I believe it is fear of the unknown that leads to belief in the supernatural. Religion offers the alluring promise of an answer to almost anything.
It is just that-fear of the unknown. The ancients had no way to answer their questions and so imagined all sorts of rubbish and declared them to be 'answers.'
The base of Christianity is induced stark raving terror as can be seen in the multitude of Xian posts.
who said anything about religion? I personally don't believe in religion.. have you any supernatural experiences? do u thooghun believe in God?
I personally believe that anybody who doesn't believe in God either 'wants to belong to the group with that ideology or is unstable, confused or suffering from depression because at some point in thier lives, they still seek or look up to God for something. Deep down, WE ALL have a space to believe the existence of God. There is God for real--
Well I am happy in my instability, confusion, and suffering of deep, dark moments, thankyou.
As many of you know who've read my experiences, there is a real spiritual war going on for our souls, whether you believe in God or not, it's real. You don't have to believe in God for Him to be real, He just is. I hope for your sake that you will at least challenge God to make himself real in your life so that you can believe. By real, I don't mean manifesting himself as human (he did that already through Jesus). I'm saying making himself real through his Holy Spirit and in your spirit so that you have no doubt. Like I said in an another post of someone who thinks God is imaginary, are you really willing to take that chance in believing that? God is real whether you believe it or not and Hell is real whether you believe it or not. Wake up!!!
For those who do believe God is real, and seeks Him out. A whole new world of understanding, wisdom and communication is opened up:) Well said, sister!
Oh, please! The defunct, decrepit, and throughly rubbish Pascal's Wager.
You're more than welcome to your fantasy daemon deity, but please don't include those outside it.
Wow.. SMH. Well I dont ever think you will be happy with all those.
Believe me when I say there is God for real.
No reason to believe you.
You lack belief in all the other brands/sects of superstition other than yours. I simply lack belief in yours as well.
Those of other brands/sects entreat you to believe them concerning what they say. You don't so believe. Yet you expect others to do what you will not. Do you not realize such is the epitome of hypocrisy?
Perhaps the following will help you understand.
First off money is utilized all over the world and loans are common.
Three months ago you borrowed 50,000 USD from me promising to repay it no later than 1 July, 2010. As of today's date the money has not been repaid.
I can see your word about repayment is worthless. The question becomes, are you going to repay the funds or are you going to be a thief?
I feel your frustration, but if you want people to believe in the reality of Jesus you should try to emulate love and compassion... that is if you want people to find God and know He is real it comes from what you reflect of Him... Him being God is love peace joy compassion, not saying wake up people.. rather, showing you want people to wake up thinking of God in love, through your words of caring not anger or frustration...
If you do not believe in God what do you think happens when we die?
After losing my Mom a year and 1/2 ago my 28 year old son was stopped by a woman. He did not know her. She touched his arm and said, son I am sorry for your loss. Your Grandmother wants you all to know she loves you and she is ok. I still get chills when I think about it.
I believe he was touched by an angel.
My faith goes very deep.
A really good book to read which might or might not change your opinion is Embraced by the Light.
Everyone is entitled to their own thoughts on this subject and I do not look down on someone who does not believe. It is just a little confusing to me.
I find it odd how people will use unexplained happenings to justify believing an unexplained God. There are a lot of things that can't be explained, does this mean we call them all the same thing and justify other things being explained?
If it comforts you to believe, that's wonderful.
Personally, I don't believe stories like this. But let's say it is true. A more rational explanation would be that the old woman was very good at reading emotion and took a lucky guess as to the cause. A slightly more adventurous take would be that she can read minds. No angels or gods are required for either of those. Certainly your belief could be correct, but it honestly seems to be the least likely of the three. Again, if it makes you happy to weave this into the fabric of your belief system, I see nothing wrong with that. Being happy is far more important than being right (in this context).
Of course, it could have been the hand of Thor, as well
Not Thor. Very little empathy there. Loki maybe, though he would have been lying to set up some tragic joke he was planning for later.
Then I have no other choice but to smite you for blasphemy!
joaniembposted 7 weeks ago
If you do not believe in God what do you think happens when we die? "
Clearly, the Great Green Arkelsneezer puts on his God mask and whisks you off to the Restaurant at the Edge of the Universe for a grand meal before being thrown out into the emptiness of space to drift.
It may not mean. What if God is also behind it? How much more explanation do you need to believe there is God? What if God exists
what if God exist? what then? what can you tell us that will make knowing God better than not???
And do I get a choice of which God I prefer to believe in. Can I just check off the God of my choice. These are serious questions that must be rigorously confronted before proceeding.
8. The Sun
I don't know??
We have all heard Don't shoot the messenger!
Maybe we shouldn't worship the Messenger either?
Just thinking out loud again.....
I don't think that we can honestly worship a God that we have not met
We have to believe the message before we see the sender.
And "SOMEBODY" knowing this has flooded the market with false messages. AND False interpretations of that message.
They all sound kinda the same but they are all a little different.
We have two choices.
We can study the differences and come to the conclusion that it is all BS,
We can look for the commonalities and find a truth
When we find the truth we can see who/what is behind it.
Believe the lies and we find who/what is behind it.
Atheists and theists both believe that they have chosen correctly. Neither will ever change the others mind. NEVER !
So both sides should quit spinning their wheels trying to.
I almost forgot .. both sides are fighting for those that are undecided. Both sides want to add to their membership.
I guess it truly is a spiritual war going on.
And neither side wants to
Wrong. I don't want to recruit anyone.
If your belief makes you happy and might make you a better person, I want you to keep it.
I only object to your making laws based solely on your beliefs. Don't do that, and I am fine with your beliefs. More than fine: I'll stand and defend your right to believe.
Pcunix said ...Wrong. I don't want to recruit anyone.
Jerami said ... Is this the only part of my post that you disagree with?
Pcunix said ...I only object to your making laws based solely on your beliefs.
Jerami But isn't that what everyone does???
Do you vote acording to your beliefs.
Maybe we should just quit voting and return to anarchy ??
No. I do NOT vote selfishly. I try hard to see what is best for everyone and if that isn't good for me, so be it.
For example, I support Universal Health Insurance and would vote for it even though it would cost me more taxes and (as I am healthy and come from long lived stock) am unlikely to see any personal benefit.
I vote to increase local school budgets even though my kids are grown up and gone. I will vote to defend YOUR right to worship as you wish even though I am an atheist.
It's called empathy. Some religious folks could sure use a big helping of it.
I never said anything about voting selfishly! Voting our beliefs is just that. If we are selfish that is the way we vote. If we are not selfish that is the way we vote.
There is selfishness involved every time we are selfless.
Only in the big picture but it is still there. It sounds like you know this whether you are aware of knowing it or not.
And you are right. Some religious folk could use a BIG dose of empathy but that goes for just about everyone.
That is except for those people that need to receive some of it the most.
The base of the US is the US Constitution. The items indicated there pertain to all which avoids the 'Tyranny of the Majority.'
This 'wall of protection' protects each and every one of us-including Xians. It protects them from having their religion outlawed by another.
It really is that simple.
I don't know if you are agreeing or disagreeing?
In fact I don't remember making this statement or what I was attempting to express in answer to what comment.
So after I'm indoctrinated into each of these belief systems, you think I could make a rational decision as to who the "real" God is? I'm stunned!
You don't have to be indoctrinated into any of them
If you could take God out of your thought processes,
Honestly examine the different "messages" as if they were witnesses at a murder trial and you were Juror.
Ya might be able to imagine a commonality between their stories, determine who you think is lying about what,
and then make up your mind as to what you think actually happened, if anything.
Then and only then vote Innocent or Guilty.
Right or wrong that would be a rational decision according to the evidence presented and based upon what you believe.
If I base my decision on fear, I will choose one of the irrational, nonsensical beliefs on the list.
If I base my decision on courage, I will choose none.
If I see the Emperor is wearing no clothes, I have the integrity and courage to accept it.
And yet you didn't really respond to my comment
Believing someone you haven't met in the flesh is called FAITH. You can "meet" Jesus quite easily and he does speak through the Holy Spirit, so it is possible to have a relationship with him although you can't see him.
This is delusion plain and simple. You cannot have a "relationship," with something that cannot interact with you in any way shape or form and it insults my intelligence when you tell me you do.
In fact - telling me that I am stupid in this fashion is what causes all the conflicts. I mean - what would you think if I told you I was standing next to an invisible pink unicorn that was telling me that you must believe it is there or it will kill you?
Can't help thinking if you said the same thing about Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy they'd lock you up!
A bit cynical perhaps but I simply cannot understand why going around saying God or Jesus speaks to me makes you sound remotely sane!
I didn't say anything that contradicts your statement.
In fact I agree We can have faith in his existance without meating him. Then after meating him it is easier to worship him.
What is your definition of Worship?
How many ways can you say Love, Respect and Appreciation.
These things can be done in faith;
But they become complete after the meeting.
FAITH=gullibility and delusion. It is not a virtue.
Having a 'relationship' with something that doesn't exist is mental illness.
" Atheists and theists both believe that they have chosen correctly. Neither will ever change the others mind. NEVER !
So both sides should quit spinning their wheels trying to.
I almost forgot .. both sides are fighting for those that are undecided. Both sides want to add to their membership."
Rubbish from first word until last.
What bothers me is that people take reasonable questions and come up with one answer, ignoring everything else.
For example, creation. Personally, I find it much easier to believe that matter and energy (whatever the base of it all actually is) have always existed than to think that something infinitely complex has.
But if your brain simply insists there must be a creator, why assume it is supernatural? Why not a third term physics major in another dimension ? Why not an accidental side effect of some experiment in that other universe?
And why assume all these motivations and interest in humanity? Why not assume that this creator is actually raising us for later harvest as food stuff?
Oh, I forgot: The Book (any one of them). A self contradictory collection of rehashed fables and beliefs that go back beyond human memory, constantly twisted and adjusted to meet the political agenda of whoever has control at the moment. If there ever was any "divine inspiration" therein, it surely was edited out long, long ago.
Ok, I get it: people WANT to believe and I can't fault them for it. I believe irrational things myself. I believe things that I have no proof of simply because to not believe would make me very depressed. In that category lies my belief that, considered overall, religion helps more than it harms. I could be very wrong about that, but believing it helps keep a smile in my heart, if not always on my face.
But at least have the intelligence to understand that a belief is only a belief. It's not absolute truth, no matter how much you wish it to be so. Some parts could be true even if the odds seem very much against it, but "could be true" and "is true" are different things. The "could be true" means you shouldn't be looking to control other people based on your desire to believe something many of us think is very improbable.
I don't think it's religion that helps more than harms, it is the faith religion provides that it helps more than harms. There can be faith in a greater good without faith in religion. Belief is not only belief, belief can change biology and the world.
I could certainly agree that organized religion likely has accomplished much more harm than good.
I'd still rather have a positive view of it all. It helps me sleep.
I think gravity is interesting. Whether a person is religious or atheist, they mostly all agree that gravity and Einstein are both unifying as empirical evidence that brings everything together. Since Einstein has more people that agree with him than does religion, and Einstein unifies, wouldn't that make him God?
Belief did one heck of a job on the NY skyscrapers.
Ok TB you have then established that you know there's a heaven?? so what's the shady part??? other than the clouds and space travel through our universal dimensions to access the heaven!!! seems like you have proof to state there's a heaven?!??
There is one God - the Almighty. You keep saying unexplainable?! How much more explanation do you need to believe He is? Well with the explanations I have, I believe God exists. Maybe you need to read more bible (I wanted to ask you your thoughts on the bible) & make more critical researches.
Reading the Bible does not prove God exists or that there is even such a being. All it proves is that a few thousand years ago a group of people chose to write about it.
I think it was King Heekiah about 700 BC who put his foot down about the other Gods around including Mrs. God and all the other little Gods....
Why any logical thinking person today continues to think he exists is frankly beyond me but I get the feeling that many people need this sort of crutch in their life.
Personally I'm happy with accepting the Sun as God, at least it can be seen, without it no life would exist, and as far as I am aware no Sun worshippers have ever gone to War claiming my Sun is better than your Sun !
I really liked the 'Sun worshippers' thing. The Sun God really sounds more acceptable than any in known Gods of Bible, Quran or the others...nice one
So why did Apollo take part in the Trojan war?
Not exactly sure what Apollo has got to with anything in this debate but as far as I know during the Trojan war Apollo shot arrows infected with the plague into the Greek encampment during the Trojan War in rage because the Greeks had kidnapped Chryseis, the daughter of Apollo's priest.
Very well stated. I agree. We know if the sun goes out so do we.
I agree also. Of course The Sun God is the true pagan god from which Christianity emanated. All hale the sun, but watch out for skin cancer
What a wonderful response, 'All hail the Sun,' but don't get too close least Ye fall back to Earth.
Is that what the true definition of religion is; a Cancer that blights and divides the world ?
You know everything am talking about. When you go through your posts you will see how hard you are trying to play down the existence of God the creator. There are enough facts already.
What are your facts for being able to explain a specific God that everyone else has failed at?
Three or four thousand years ago, you would have insisted that any number of gods exist. I wouldn't have believed you then, either :-)
Only in the deluded minds of mental toddlers.
I believe it was King Hezekiah!!!!!! and he wasn't the first King to put His foot down?!!!
OK So I can't Spell... Hezekiah.
and yes you're right he wasn't the first to try and impose the one God idea.
The problem was getting the people to accept and understand the notion, I mean after all God is all powerfull, right, and he's a man so a man needs a wife, right... and even in heaven there's bound to be a certain amount of Hein' and Shein' so there's going to be kids right ....?
However I think it was Hezekiah who was the one who said; "Enough Already !" No more Mrs. God... and forget the Kids...!
Wherever you got that from. Smh. Why are we raising this debate when we all know deep down that there is God. You just mentioned heaven right? You believe in heaven. God is not and NEVER a man. Looking for facts? Read the bible. NO SINGLE INDIVIDUAL WROTE THE BIBLE. You talk about god of the sun? Smh. The sun was created by someone.
You seem fanatically closed minded! You could find much better possibilities if you could expand the parameters of your thinking, but this seems hopeless!
chigoiyke may be closed minded to you but,. If a Christian believes in Jesus and God the Father and knows in their heart and by His Word that there are NO other true gods, they are automatically "close-minded" to other gods because there is only one TRUE God.
Well - at least you admit you are close minded.
And are diametrically opposed to reason.
They can't accept Santa Claus isn't real. Their tactics are the same ones toddler use at that point in time.
Well the toddlers I am around are much better at it than this lot!
EVERYBODY OWN UP TO THE FACT THAT GOD EXISTS!! ITS 2010. GO THROUGH A BIBLE AND COME BACK HERE AFTERWARDS & TELL ME GOD DOES NOT EXIST.
Why do you have a need for people to believe as you do? Why is it so important for you to convince others to agree with you?
Because people who think like you are predictable. Because you aren't sure you are right but having everyone agree would make you more certain. Because you are convinced that your god-thing will punish everyone for the sins of a few.
It's not about being right. Once a person comes to the belief in Jesus Christ, they want others to be saved by Jesus's Blood, which is the only way to get into Heaven. Most Christians have a desire to introduce people to God through his son Jesus Christ because, as many of us know, time is coming to a close and God does not wish for anyone to perish but all to be saved. He waits patiently for as many of his children to come to Him as possible before Jesus returns for His Church.
You people are clueless about your own superstition. :\
Their cognitive dissonance is beyond measure, Captain!
The burden of proof lies on you, my friend. The only bible that makes any sense to me is Jefferson's bible.
I find it obscene and abhorrent that anyone who lives in 2010 that has strong Christian religious beliefs takes it upon themselves to dictate to others, at any time, at any stage, whether another persons belief system is different, and not a Christian one, and since its 'all laid out' you better start believing in their beliefs or I am going to hell.
I tell you what, I will continue to believe what I believe in, and continue to respect the decisions, choices and beliefs others have, no matter how same or how different theirs is to mine. They have that right. I have that right.
This thread no longer has become suitable debate. Reply with what you like, yet I am choosing to decide to no longer participate in this, since most of these debates tend to end up as slanging matches. So, with that said, I shall return to my glass house.
Reading the bible is what planted the seeds of doubt for my belief in God and anything supernatural. I highly recommend reading the bible unless you are sensitive to divinely encouraged cruelty, racism, sexual abuse, genocide, and a host of other horrors. Believers cherry-pick the "good stuff" and ignore the parts like "disobedient children should be stoned".
Man! Someone's having a shit fit! Terrible Twos?
BTDT. Doing so set me free.
It makes people feel good and connected to have the same reality, some aren't strong enough to have their own. A child relies on the parents to create reality, religious relies on religion to create reality. Many atheists rely on science to create reality.
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, no matter how satisfying and reassuring"
Carl Sagan dosen't grasp the Universe according to our realistic understanding of it, he believes in alien civilizations, as far as we understand logically this is science fiction and nothing to do with science.
Ok, I think its a debate going on here. I cant convince you on whaw you already know(even if you battle to wade it off). Talking about God, shower and the rest, try to always differentiate jokes with facts. Aingt nobody thought twice bout that maybe save you. Now assuming you want to convince me that there is no God, I have never seen a strong point any of you raised here that is strong enough to convince me. All I see is desperation. Hell, I went a long way to believe the existence of God. The bible will definitly change your stands.
Which has more believers, the bible or gravity?
You have, blindly, overlooked every reasonably factual argument here, just to support your closed minded, nonsensical, absurd, psychotic delusion.
I would never try to convince you there is no God, simply because it is an exercise in futility. One cannot prove a negative which is why the burden of proof is on the one making the claim. The bible is not proof, it is an ancient text written by man that has little relevance in the modern world.
True believers are the closed minded group in this debate. They will believe no matter what. Rational thinkers who are not believers will change their minds in the presence of new evidence.
Let's see the evidence for a god.
There's even more to ask.
Let's say we discovered that our DNA is stamped "Copyright Jehova, 4 million BC"
Wow. That would be proof of our creator, anyway. Some Dude who calls themselves Jehova.
But that wouldn't prove it's a god. It wouldn't prove that it is supernatural or that it deserves worship or even respect.
That is one of the many flaws in theistic belief systems. Jumping to unwarranted conclusions.
Agreed. And even if some type of being presented itself in the skies of the whole planet, how do we know it is not an extremely advanced civilization with technology we could not even imagine presenting itself as our god. If we could travel back in time, our own ancestors would worship us as gods after witnessing our technology. Even in this highly unlikely event, you cannot conclude what you are witnessing is a god.
If that were to happen ..?
Anything that can squosh me any second and threatens to do so. Gets my full attention and all due respect.
If it tells me to do something that is against my moral ethical code? I might get stomp on me ??
There are many ways to die ... And you don't have to stop breathing to do so.
Thus says the goldfish that is in the bowl.
The goldfish would not believe that it is raining outside the house.
It would have no comprehension of there being anything that is outside the house. It says; show me the rain and then I will believe in it
Don't even try to explain airplanes.
When we can not believe in anything outside of ourselves; that is called a closed mind.
Some goldfishes may have been rained on; on the way home from the pet store.
That doesn't mean that this fish can explain the rain properly.
Does nothing exist out side of our bowl?
I disagree with your definition of a closed mind. A person with a closed mind is one who refuses to change their mind in spite of overwhelming, contradictory evidence to their current beliefs.
I can agree with that definition.
I would add that refusing to recognize any evidence as being evidence because it contradicts their current belief is also close minded.
Who gets to choose what is evidence and what is not???
Gotta get off here for a little while.
But your definition of "evidence" is
not the same as the accepted definition which tends to cause
fights isn't it Jeramio?
Tell us about the Turin shroud - which you have never seen - but accept as evidence that jeebus came back to life. LOLOLO
Still - what is really important is pushing the faith. Right?
The Turin Shroud is now recognised by the scientific community as being the first ever photograph. it is also linked to Leonardo davinci, and is carbon dated to his lifetime. there is a lot of evidence sourounding this that you can find if you are interested.
Not sure about this - but Leonardo was a tad later than Jeebus.
And the scientific community has recognized no such thing as far as I know- it is still in dispute.
But - I am keen to learn where you got this. Please add some links.
Google brings up plenty of information, there was a Horizon documentary about it though where they had all the information, carbon dated results, comparisson with da Vinci, da Vinci self portraits, and his measurements which match to an exact ratio the image on the shroud.
Despite church contestation, the majority of scientists who have looked at the theory have agreed with it, at least thats the last I heard on the subject.
Never researched it, or looked in to it to too deep a level though, it doesn't particularly interest me that they have disproven another religious fable, since that's what I assume most religious tales are in any case.
This is complete bull**** mechanistic science cannot prove itself as a theory of everything until it can explain how life began, life relies on amino acids and protein enzymes, solve the which came first problem as in the chicken or the egg, if you cannot do this you have no real idea about why we exist.
Ok, whatever: but God exists. You said the bible has 'little' relevance? What more? Read more of it and see how relevant it is. Lets do more studying folks and stop being too rigid. The bible is the most powerful and best selling book in the word because it represents a great cause. There are more facts about the existence of God than there is about the opposite.
GOOD REALLY EXISTS!
The sign should read; "I'm bloody bonkers and should be hospitalized but there's no funding for it. Keep your distance as I have rabies."
S/he's mainlining Jeebus. Possibly an addict who switched drugs. S/he's also a rampant hypocrite as s/he hasn't studied extensively all the other older 'Holy Writ.'
S/he's also got his/her fingers in his/her ears continually screaming "I CAN'T HEAR YOU."
Quite sad, actually.
Let's see the facts about the existence of god. How well the bible sells is not one of them. That is a logical fallacy known as "argument from popularity". Just because an idea is popular does not mean it's correct. National Socialism is a perfect example. Forced sterilization was the law in 23 states. Were those good ideas? Using your logic of the popularity of the bible, you would have to agree. If it's popular, it's right. Wrong.
What other facts have you?
Interestingly enough, it was reading the bible that convinced me that particular god didn't exist because the bible was in direct contradiction to facts.
I think some don't know the definition of "fact"
Chigoiyke, you have posted 9 times in this thread, stating 8 times that God exists. You have stated that someone made the sun. You have stated that there is a good deal of proof for that existence.
You seem unable to distinguish between fact and opinion - the statement of existence does not constitute proof. The statement about the sun is not proof, simply an opinion. Your statement of the amount of proof is, without supporting evidence, opinion instead of proof.
You will find that non-believers will not automatically agree with your statement that God exists without at least some corroborating evidence. They have heard it before, and remain unbelievers, and your opinion will not sway them. Statements that basically state that you believe because you can't conceive of any other possibility isn't evidence; rather it is a statement of ignorance. That's OK - we're all ignorant somewhere, but your statement of your ignorance in a particular matter won't convince anyone that what you choose to believe instead automatically becomes proof that you are right. How about some evidence of His existence?
I guess you have not read it then? Dear me. Push it when you ain't even read it. LOL What relevance does it have? Oh - you mean brown people being slaves? OK - That what you want?
Really? You are pushing a book you have never even read? LOLOL And accusing people of not studying something you have not read?
I dare you.
Utter garbage. Shout it louder dude!!!!!!!
Your god that you have never read his book does not exist.
God Exists !!!! Read the Bible for proof...!
OK Let’s see if we can get off page one before someone shouts Bullshit !
1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. THIS MEANS YOUR GOD CREATED THIS PLANET FIRST.
3: And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. I ASSUME THIS YOUR GOD CREATING THE SUN.
4: And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. AND NOW GOD STARTS THE PLANET SPINNING.
5: And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
All that is, is a nice simple story to explain an extremely complex process to an illiterate nomad who probably asked where’ am I ?
It would make just as much sense if he had been told that the might God squatted down and farted the Earth into existence !
The Sun had to been there first. We needed the immense gravity of the Sun to create the orbit of the floating debris to congeal into the planet we sit on.
If your God didn’t know this simple scientific fact he couldn’t be that smart....
One assumes if he exists he's moved on a bit, educational speaking, that is... because his followers sure as hell haven't !
First off I love it when people who believe in spiritual cr** pretend to eb atheist in forums, it is incredibly obvious in posts like this that the poster has beliefs because they talk about things such as demons, and refer to everyone being drawn to spirituality.
I can safely say that I am not spiritual, and think of any spiriitual or religious following as low grade insanity.
I don't fear the unknown, I want to learn more about it, unfortuantely spiritually and religion to me is not 'the unknown' it is 'non-existant' rather like Santa, and the flying spaghetti monster.
If you feel drawn to things such as ghosts and afterlife it tends to be because you are afraid of death or feel impotent.
If you feel drawn to spirtuality and healing powers it tends to be because you feel powerless.
These are common pshycotic traits which have been analysed multipal times.
Fortunately for most of Europe, religion has now been discounted by the majority and few people you meet on the street are religious, the same is happening in America.
(OK, whatever, but God exists) is not proof - it is a statement of faith. Truth can only be proven within a system of logic - truth is subjective: we distinguish by calling our arguments sound or unsound.
Here is a sound proof: All wood burns (Assumed to be true). Pine is a type of wood (Fact). Therefore, Pine burns (Logical necessity).
Of course, if the only pine you ever tried to light had been treated with a flame retarding chemical, you might disagree with the truth of the logic; however, your opinion does not alter the logical consistency of the argument nor the logical necessity of the conclusion.
See, I could also have said: All invisible gods burn (Debatable). Mithra is an invisible god.(Fact) Therefore, Mithra burns. (Logical necessity).
Notice, the only thing that changed from the pine example to the Mithra example is our belief concerning the initital premise - we assume all wood burns but we doubt all invisible gods burn.
And that is what Subjectivity is all about - OPINION.
You are an excellent example of subjective opinion.
??? Looks like at a minimum an honest effort to be objective. An example of the use of logic that follows commonly held concepts, with as little subject opinion as possible.
As are you. LOL
Still - I think it is really wonderful that you are undecided, yet call yourself LOLOL "fallenangel666" and argue for the DEITY. LOL
Love liars for Jesus. You are very, very special.
And open minded.
You are very special yourself Mark in that you are the most narrowminded and prejudiced person who is not illiterate, as for my user name only people who take everything literally would attempt to make anytyhing of it, you are someone who attempts to be an intellectual bully, through the process of 'a little knowledge is dangerous' if you want to go head to head on biological ethology fair enough, bring it on, let's show everyone just how ignorant you really are.
Ah - thank you for proving my point.
Dear me. Not that you are a theist or anything. LOLOLOL
Liars for Jesus.
If you cannot come up with an intelligent argument go back to reading your comics.
Very good insult
cannot come up with an intelligent argument
Well done. What intelligent argument would work for you?
100% total lack of evidence?
Will that work?
Not that you are a theist or anything. Right?
Nothing biblical about that.
Are you completely incapable of saying anything coherent, I come from a scientific background, if you have an argument to put forward forget about the Bible and religious fairytales and say something logical, if not just admit that your opinions are purely based on refuting religion, how intelligent is that?
You must have a reading comprehension problem. I have never said I have any answers. Never. What I have said is that religion does not.
Why is it so hard to believe in god? Easy. 100% total lack of evidence and the common sense to say "does that make any sense"? is enough for me. But - you prefer to attack me instead.
How very logical of you. Dear me
Subjective opinion is redundant - all opinion is subjective and subjectivity is nothing but opinion.
I am not claiming any "truth" to my statements concerning "truth" - I am only defining truth so that the definition remains consistent. Theists typically have a problem when you ask them for precise definitions - they like to use common language understandings and talk about things like love, morals, and truth as if these were completely and totally understood and had universal accepated definitions, when of course there is no such thing as universal understanding of the meaning of each word.
Sure, my definition of truth is solely my opinion. But it is a rational definition and it is consistent, the two critical aspects in order to debate the issue.
If you don't like my definition, let's hear your definition. I am sure it will be as clear and concise and as consistent as is mine.
Let's have your objective opinion on how life began in the first place, what came first enzymes or amino acids, if you can answer this I will worship you as a God, otherwise stop talking rubbish.
(This is complete bull**** mechanistic science cannot prove itself as a theory of everything until it can explain how life began...)
Where do you get the idea that science is in the business of "proof"? Nothing in science is ever proven. Science only explains rationally. Proof lies in the realm of courtrooms and building cases and logics and religions.
Proof is totally subjective.
If we get enough votes on our call-in voting system, we can prove anything. We can prove which singers have talent and who dances best. If the vote is taken in Afghanistan, we could prove Allah is God; if we take that vote in the Vatican, Jehovah would proven to be the one and only God.
However, science does not try to "prove" that the Moon orbits the Earth. Science only observes, measures, weighs, and looks for a raional explanation as to why a fact is so.
If you are waiting for science to prove the moon orbits the Earth, you are going to miss out on eating a lot of delicious green cheese in the meantime.
If science is simply about obsevrations why does it promote atheism as though our observations of the mechanics of life prooves their is no design in nature, even though our powers of observation are limited, as is logical inquiry, science is prejudiced towards mechanical models and ignores anything it cannot explain. Don't try to impress your subjective opinions on every one else, just admit that you haven't got a clue, just like all the Nobel Prize winning scientists who indulge in utter fantasy in order to prop up their illogical commitment to atheism.
"Science ignores anything it cannot explain". Not quite true, there will always be some attempt to explain things we don't know. What science does not do is make up myths and stories to "explain" what it cannot explain. Perhaps religion should emulate science and not make up stories to explain what it doesn't know? Stop trying to impress subjective opinions on everyone else? Just admit you haven't a clue instead of using magic to explain everything? Instead of being like the church VIP's who indulge in utter fantasy in order to prop up their illogical commitment to magic?
To answer your first question, science promotes atheism (although "promotes" is the wrong word) because it can find not one shred of evidence to promote Deism. Lacking any evidence it follows that one should not believe. At best a suspension of belief either way, or perhaps a leaning to atheism, but certainly not a belief in magic.
(If science is simply about obsevrations why does it promote atheism as though our observations of the mechanics of life prooves their is no design in nature,)
I agree that if someone is promoting a cause they are not being scientific - much of modern science is no more than another form of religious belief. Science itself does not promote anything other than rational explanations of natural phenomena.
Those who try to dazzle with mathematical proofs are simply selling their particular religion. Mathematics is a construct of man, built on manmade axioms, and it deals with concepts, which are not real in the sense that concepts have no mass or location in the universe. Concepts are ideas.
Science does not promote atheism. At the same time, there is plenty of "proof" for design in nature - proof is subjective. We vote on proof. I bet you could round up 100 votes right now for the idea of design in nature.
That does not make it fact, though. Have you ever considered that what you perceive as order could have arisen without a designer?
have you ever concieved of the idea that once life erupted in the machine (replicator) it was already pre-programmed to evolve without further need of intervention. Don't tell me that science does not promote atheism when the entire principle of mechanical theory is based on that assumption. Human ignorance is only surpassed by human arrogance. I do not claim to know anything, that is the big difference between us, just admit you haven't got a clue and stop pretending that like God you know everything.
Anyway I give up, I came on this site in the hope that there would be some open minded people to debate with, it's obvious that wether you are Neo-Darwinists or Creationists you are all completely off your trolleys. Good luck with your ignorance.
shame isn't it...... we should be able to disagree without being disagreeable. really we should
Projection, terminal ignorance, false witness, and blaming the victim is noted.
Christians like you are your own worst enemy and destroy that which you're trying to promote.
([science] ignores anything it cannot explain.)
Well, you are not totally ignorant - you seem to understand the role of science.
Why is faith always defined as blind?
That is a weird thing.
Faith is the action and reaction (substance/search and evidence/proof) of any given human instance.
If faith is blind, humans are too.
Which seems to be the case in most cases.
Faith is always defined as blind because there is a difference between me having faith that the brakes on my bike will work because I just serviced them and checked that they are working properly and faith that there is a god. But - you prefer to pretend that they are the same.
Why is it religionists like yourself always try and use semantic arguments to change the meaning of words so that they can claim their faith in nothing is the same as faith in the brakes?
umm, you do know you just used semantics. Talk about redundancy.
And it isn't changing the words at all. If you need faith to know your brakes work, then you have problems.
Faith isn't an entity, like you and the "relish" would like to believe. It is an action. In essence, it gives you the power and desire to make choices. But you want to put mustard in hot dog water (a semantic) and call it soup, when it isn't. It's a soggy wiener water. How fitting for you and them.
Yup, it's two days slow -The Mad Hatter
You are the one trying to sell wiener water as soup. No matter how many times you try - it will still be wiener water. Loving the high opinion you have of yourself though. Surprised you can spare the time to explain these real meanings of words to one such as myself.
Really, really appreciate it though. I feel honored even.
Some one has to, Marcus. And you always are the good school boy volunteer. And it seems now, the teachers pet. (strange eclectic, echoing laughter)
I think Mark secretly wants to really know what's up with that. I am sure he is just about there. It only takes one axon or two to connect and he'll be right there in the superhighway where there is no traffic, just a freeway of understanding.
one such as yourself would need not just a translation but an entirely different wiring...must admit the new picture is so cool I cannot have it in me to be mean to you.
seriously you look great in that picture.
This is a case of ridiculous thread going on and on.
why is it hard for people to believe in G-d? It's not hard, more people believe in G-d than don't.
Why is it hard for people to believe in G-d after they have been disillusioned? well the construct has changed.
The notion of G-d requires that you transcend your humanity and the limits of the five senses so you can grasp a glimmer of what lies beyond the knowable.
It is such a tedious thing to do, that the easier way is to just either believe or not believe. G-d cannot be known. How can you know something so complex and so great in magnitude? If you tried,you would think and talk so macroscopic that NO ONE except a handful would understand you.
It is easy to believe and not believe. what is hard is to understand.
No. I can no more believe in stone and bronze age theistic excrement than I can physically flap my arms and fly to Europe.
Now, from the Xian superstition, a person lacks belief because 'god' scripted it. The bible flats states that in many places.
Blame your imaginary buddy, not the victim.
People do understand and can demonstrate the tome is drivel.
What the Bible refers to as Demons & Devils are really the gods of other, older religions.
It's not hard to understand why the Jews (people seem to forget - or ignore - that the early Christians were hardline, militant Jews) demonised other civilization's deities in this manner: they had, after all, been conquered and enslaved by successive invading powers for over a millenium prior to New Testament Times.
Reading some of these posts from unbelievers is interesting. I am not afraid to offend anyone or make somebody made by professing my faith and I just wonder why the mention of Jesus gets some of you so angry, not just on this forum but others. Why don't you athiests and unbelievers challenge my God that if He really exists to make his presence known. You'll be surprised when He shows up!
Your faith is your own. If you take a look the difference in response comes when believers project their delusions onto others and objective reality.
If Xians kept their superstition the private matter Jeebus orders there wouldn't be a problem.
As for 'challenging' there's nothing to challenge. That is the problem which Xians constantly ignore.
A guy I know has issued an invitation for God myriad times to show up for a session of full contact Karate. God has always been a no show.
i dont think believing in god is difficult..believing in religious god though is different thing..idea of sin , salvation ,mokash , heaven , hell , rebirth..these all ideas are tough to believe in..also religious concept of my way or highway ..not much consideration of other species...not much elaboration of age of earth and more than million other gallexies and such stuffs...if one takes unbiased views and not self centered view..that believing in religious god is really difficult thing to do...
I think some people have difficulty in believing in something that they can't see with the human eye.
Think about a cat for a minute. Have you ever watched a cat stop, stand on it's hind legs and start slapping at the air. You look and see nothing. Just maybe the cat can see something we don't. Just because we can't "see" it, doesn't mean nothing is there. The cat is slapping at "something".
Once some one gets it in their minds not to believe, they won't.
You can show some one a picture that has a spirit, or ghost in it and they will say the picture has been tampered with. Even if you know it hasn't been, they won't believe it.
I disagree. I think observers know there are many things they can't see such as small particles.
As for phenomena, many have sub-conscious connections we are still trying to understand, such as synchronicity and poltergeists.
There are many thing which remain unknown, but attributing them to the vicious psychopathic biblical god, a story that is recycled in the quoran is madness in my view.
Think about the millions if not billions of daily prayers that are sent to this god daily. In 2,000 years not one has been proven to be answered!
Yet religionists will tell you that god found their car keys!
With all the children dying of starvation today from all the natural disasters on the planet, one would imagine an omniscient, omnipotent benevolent god would care for their prayers ahead of the car keys?
I guess these children and their parents before them weren't as smart as some and chose the wrong scripture to follow!
Never let reality get in the way of firmly locked indoctrination!
That is just plain crazy!
You think it could be small particles the cats see that we don't? That is a possibility. Some times we can see those in a certain light, but not others.
I couldn't see what the cat was seeing, so I can't say what it was.
As far as poltergeists. Am I understanding correctly that you think they may exist?
Yes, I have wondered how God can let things happen. So many people suffer, especially the poor innocent little children. I do believe in God, and I do believe he could put an end to the suffering. Why doesn't he, I've often wondered. I don't know. I wish I did. Maybe someday I will.
I constantly find evangelical Xians a hefty source of amusement. The Babble shows a God demonstrating a undeniable physical presence.
You know; drowning the world for scripted sins, lovingly torturing everything living for eternity, through talking snakes and donkeys, parting seas so people can stroll through, perversion, bestiality, and more.
Now, the poor sot's been reduced to cowering amongst electrons in a in an atom somewhere in the universe avoiding detection.
Either that, or 'He's' serving a triple eternity sentence in the Phantom Zone[tm] without possibility of parole.
Not true. There is a micro world none of us can see with the human eye, but can be seen with powerful microscopes.
Of course not, their existence would violate a number of physical laws.
Not true. There is a micro world none of us can see with the human eye, but can be seen with powerful microscopes.
COOL! Little people?
I have a picture. Taken with a polaroid camera about 20 years ago. My husbands cousin in her hospital bed with her sons standing by. There are 2 other images in the picture. One is a womans face, the other is a man standing behind 2 of her sons with a hand on each of their shoulder. They weren't seen in the room. They didn't appear in the picture until the next day, after my husbands cousin died. One other odd thing, the man, looks a lot like my husband, but he wasn't there, and he was still alive at the time. This picture was taken to an expert to see if it was a double exposure or if the picture had been tampered with. The expert said no.
Okay, scan it and put the image up here so we can all see it.
I have scanned it and put it on my computer. It wasn't until then that I saw the man standing by the boys who looked a lot like my husband, except shorter. I drifted away from most of my husbands family after he past, but I am still close to some. I will see if I can get permission to post this picture.
I wouldn't post it with out their concent. Ya know, Do unto others.
Exhorter and jermi has seen it. Exhorter also has a copy.
I think cats have an amazing imagination! Especially kittens.
Some animal behaviour is quite unusual, such as dogs that can smell or sense cancer, dogs that know how you feel or what you will do next etc. Dogs have a much more intuitive capacity to recognise feelings, perhaps it is in their capacity to smell so incredibly well, but still pretty strange to an observer.
There is a lot of empirical evidence and some photographic and film evidence for poltergeists. I have no solid proof of their existence, but some credible people have documented them over time. eg Carl Gustaf Jung
Inanimate objects behaving badly perhaps? It does seem very strange indeed.
I've experienced poltergeist activity myself, and it is very scary, but then many unexplained activities can seem disturbing if we allow them to. In by gone centuries old women who had a healing way with herbs would often end up burned as witches. Poltergeists exist, but it's hard to know whether their activity is malicious, or just attention-seeking.
It's about a fifty-fifty split between attention seeking and malicious intent I think - at least from what I've read and heard.
It's weird to think that I can believe in this, other paranormal stuff and extraterrestrials far easier than I can believe in a God.
I guess, looking at the multitudinous number of stars, I can't believe that we're the only ones in the universe, or that what we currently know is all there is to everything, which immediately alienates me from the Christians for a start.
I'll just concentrate on trying to be a good person then...
Your not alienated. We each have the right to believe as we do. I believe in God. I also believe there is life out side of our little world. I believe in spirits, ghosts, extraterrestrials, what ya want to call them. I can't see them, but that doesn't mean they aren't there.
Usually and very often, the invisible and the non-existent are one and the same. In other words, the reason we can't see them is because they aren't there.
Well, no. Years ago my alarm clock kept being turned off in the middle of the night. I would check it and recheck it to make sure it was on, but, it would get turned off during the night. I questioned every one in my home, they all knew the alarm had to go off so they weren't touching it. Then one night as I climbed into bed, set the alarm, I spoke to who ever it was. I sat there in a room all by myself and said that I appreciate that this "whoever" didn't want me to be woke up but I had to get up in the morning so please leave the alarm alone. It never happened again. Every one told me that they felt a "presence" when they would pass my bedroom door.
Sounds like you told yourself to stop turning the alarm off and it worked. The presence was just you.
No, every one would feel a cold chill, a presence, when they past my bedroom door. People who lived in that house before us also said some one was there. It wasn't me.
So, there is a draught there, like many houses.
Did you just swallow that tale or thought there may just be a draught somewhere?
There is definately a drought some where. The grass around here is brown and crunchy.
Same here. Hot and dry. I miss riding my John Deere.
I'm hopeing it carries over into winter. I don't want another winter like last year. Snow, snow and more snow. It was so cold I just wanted it to get above freezing!
I have no personal experience at all with this phenomena.
Not so with synchronicity though, I am pretty sure I have been there a few times!
There are a lot of strange things in this life. Things we can't explain.
Maybe some day it will all be clear to us.
I would argue that it isn't so hard - would that it were - believers: of all persuasions, seem to be on the increase as people are prepared for war against one another by the elites who will make vast profits out of the exercise.
When are 'believers' going to wake up to the fact that religion is a lie: pure propaganda, that renders them incapable of rational thought and makes them pliable puppets in the hands of their manipulators.
DC Brownlow wrote:
Fear of the unkown hinders religious beliefs
earnestshub wrote ...Fear of the unknown drives religious belief.
Jerami asks So you do admitt that there is something out there that is unknown?
I agree completely. There is something out there of which we have no understanding!
Yes of course there are things that are unknown, but we do know a few things even about them.
For example we can prove religiosity is the result of a mind process which is archetypal, psychological and definable.
We can change these beliefs with even slight alterations in our natural brain chemistry, we can even disconnect a part of the brain which contributes to the primary psychosis.
I have said it all before, shown it all before only to be doused down with "God dunnit" scripture without any proof or observable data to support it.
earnestshub wrote.. Yes of course there are things that are unknown, but we do know a few things even about them.
And when you say we do know a few things even about them. Who is we? Are you talking about you and I? Or you and Mark or are you talking about mankind collectifely.
Do "we" realy know a little bit about everything??
I don't think so. I don't think that we know .001% of the things that are to be known even about our earth, let alone the universe.
earnestshub ....... For example we can prove religiosity is the result of a mind process which is archetypal, psychological and definable.
That definition sounds to me that it might be applied to just about any belief system that is based in a mutual agreement by a large number of people.
earnestshub We can change these beliefs with even slight alterations in our natural brain chemistry, we can even disconnect a part of the brain which contributes to the primary psychosis.
We can alter brain functions with a couple of shots of wiskey, a little LSD but what works best is a frontal labotomy.
m earnestshub wrote.. Yes of course there are things that are unknown, but we do know a few things even about them.
And when you say we do know a few things even about them. Who is we? Are you talking about you and I? Or you and Mark or are you talking about mankind collectively.
As in somebody knows ?
Do "we" really know a little bit about everything??
I don't think so. I don't think that we know .001% of the things that are to be discovered even about our earth, let alone the universe.
earnestshub ....... For example we can prove religiosity is the result of a mind process which is archetypal, psychological and definable.
That definition sounds to me that it might be applied to just about any belief system that is based upon a mutual agreement by a large number of people.
earnestshub We can change these beliefs with even slight alterations in our natural brain chemistry, we can even disconnect a part of the brain which contributes to the primary psychosis.
We can alter brain functions with a couple of shots of whiskey, a little LSD but what works best is a frontal lobotomy. I have even heard a lobotomy cures Atheism, Theism sex drive, Gluttony and kleptomania
I don't live in fear. Do you live in fear?
Jeremy the thing we know about the unknown is that it is unknown, not "god dunnit"
Scientific method has ensured that we can define what is known.
the problem comes down to the fact that why, if there was this benevolent, omnipotent, omnipresent god..Why would it let so much sh1t happen in the world? why would he let children be abused? why would let war happen? but then you come into the realm of the question of free will..And I don't want to get too much into it right now...Im typed out.
I cannot understand why in the Twenty-first century why anyone still believes in or feels the need for a God in any shape or form.
Given the total amount of conflict and death caused in his name over the centuries I wonder why any sane person still thinks any organised religion has a place in the world other than as a major worldwide employer of thousands, a bit like Wal Mart !
For what it's worth I am not an atheist I am a good old fashioned Pagan, with beliefs that pre date any and all religions. For our sins it was us who invented God, or Gods to be more precise, Gods big and small, as well as Goddesses and little children Gods (Even Gods have sex) animal Gods, hundreds of them in fact.
As the Pagan tribes around the Mediterranean started to break up and wander further afield they took their Gods with them, some Gods were left behind or were dropped from favour as man’s intelligence grew and his fear of the unknown diminished. Many took off in different directions to give us the God’s of Egypt, Greece, Rome and not forgetting the Norse lot as well.
It seems fairly logical to me that as time progressed and intelligence continued to develop many God’s would ultimately disappear and be whittled down to just the few we have left. Yes, that’s right I said a few, not all the world settled for the one God theory.
When you finally work out why you dismiss all the other possible Gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. If you must have a creator to worship something to believe in why not return to the original Mother Earth. She needs all of us now more than ever.
Well said Merlin. The Australian aboriginals relate everything to the land, their mother.
I don't do god, I understand the sub-conscious need though, and it's easy transformation into a psychosis.
I too can understand the need for a sort of mental crutch I just wonder why they just can't suck their thumb and lie in a darkened room until the feeling passes.
Perhaps religion is like a mass version of PMT "You Just Gotta Kill something !"
Droll. I like that.
It does take a while to sort out where the religious bone is if you even go looking for it. It has a fine marriage with the part of the brain that extends directly from the spinal column known as the lizard or reptilian brain. We all have the same wiring, it is how we learn to interpret it or the amygdala gets wired up according to neural scientists.
Carl Jung collected enough empirical evidence for what he termed "religiosity of soul" to fill a library wall.
Organised religion is responsible for so much anger and bloodshed. It's just a shame that people feel the need to do this whole playground thing of 'my God's better than your God'. I prefer to think of 'God' as a power for good rather than a single entity. I believe that Christianity, and many other religions too, evolved to give both a moral code, and a set of rules to guide society. From that point of view they do a great job, that is, until all the splinter groups start imposing their own interpretations.
I am a Christian and was once a Sunday School teacher..attended church every sunday until one morning I began to doubt my faith..The reason ? The night before I had watched an episode of Star Trek something I do not like ..however this particular episode caught my attention,it was concerning a member of the fleet who became pregnant inas much the same way as The Virgin Mary...a light came into the room swept around landed on her tummy and low and behold ,she was pregnant,in due course baby came along and grew very fast,asended into the clouds and took up life on another spaceship with a promise of returning in the future ....It struck me then and there that maybe that happened when our lord was born....The star was a spaceship hovering over the desert..guided the kings and the shepherds to the stable,and an alien planted the baby ,the Ascension into heaven ,could have been Jesus being beamed up onto his spaceship again to return at a later date as promised...after all we are still waiting ,and Star Trek is set in the future so maybe,just maybe !! I spoke to our vicar about my doubts and reasonings ,he replied that it matters not what you beleive happened as long as you beleive it did,in some way or another. Friends have said my theory is The Christian Scientists way of thinking....
Star Trek came out of someone's imagination. Much as religion did.
The mind is a big place.
I always wanted one of the leather pilot's ones complete with the split lens goggles.
The propeller on the top is so that when people see you wearing one they can cross the street and avoid all conversation.
I would love to see a HubPages award scheme then we would know which Forums to stay away from.
I would also love one of those. The closest thing to a motorcycle helmet my father wore when racing. I can't believe they raced in leather helmets!
The propeller is necessary for me. I chase old homeless people up the street trying to get a chat going.
I have never been sane thankfully and any assessment by the current standards of world sanity would be pretty pointless in my view.
In fact being accused of being sane would be quite insulting to me and I might even be offended by it.
I lost the illusion of sanity even before George Bush gained the Presidency in America!
Seems my message has got everybody stunned into silence can it be that simple basic common sense and logic has won the day ?
Merlin Fraser wrote:
Seems my message has got everybody stunned into silence can it be that simple basic common sense and logic has won the day ?
No they were just feeling nauseous and stepped out side for a while..
Heredity and environment have they most strength shaping a
person's viewpoint. The human mind is imperfect and flawed and
is very easy to influence like advertising and propaganda does
every day. Example innocent people are convicted guilty people
get let off. It matters not what we individually believe or
accept in the end God will and can enforce His ways which are
not dependent on human belief or acceptance because if they are
based on this, then most assuredly He does not exist! That I
fail to understand why millions have fought and died trying to
prove that their side is right when in fact it does not prove
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