Since you say "let the madness begin," and your screenname is "secularist", I'm assuming you probably just want to try to trap believers into saying something you deem as non-intellectual, so you can rip it apart. As far as I'm concerned, your question makes no sense. My belief is based on faith and doesn't stop because of circumstances, so-called evidence or anything anyone can argue. It is also impossible for someone who does not share it to understand it. Have a good week.
Your response is wrongheaded. Sounds like you've lost one too many arguments with atheists, lol. Lighten up.
You say your faith doesn't stop, but it had to start at some point (you weren't born thinking that way). If it started, then it can stop.
If you don't want to discuss these issues, you don't have to.
I'm lost, lol.
I'm not that bad, Lori. That's why I use a picture of a puppy.
Let's see, you started your response by calling me "wrong-headed", saying I must have lost arguments with atheists and telling me to "lighten up." Now, you tell me you're not too bad because you have a picture of a puppy for your profile. I think I'm the one who's lost.
That said, I'm not going to argue my faith with someone who isn't truly interested, which is why I refuse to. You can give me a counter-point for every point and I can counter back and we'd both just be wasting our time and effort because we aren't going to change the other one's mind.
The Bible says to shake the dust off your feet when you encounter people with this type of attitude about hearing the truth of Christ, so I think I'll agree to disagree with you and move on and spend my time more wisely elsewhere, so I'm unfollowing this thread.
If it makes you feel good to think you've won some argument that never was, then congratulations. However, I doubt in the end that you will enjoy the prize you've won.
Alright, already! Gee whiz. I said your response was wrongheaded, not you. But that's not an insult. Come on. It's debating. If you can't or don't want to put your beliefs on the line, then you don't have to.
I'm actually one of the softest nonbelievers on Hub Pages, which pretty much anybody who reads me will agree with. It's why I have a number of religious followers here and on my other sites.
Your whole comment here verifies what I said at the top: lighten up! lol
If you want to go away thinking I'm evil, god-hating, baby-eating atheist ogre, well, go right ahead. I can't change people's minds.
I'm not an atheist. But eating babies, well... only on occasion.
God cannot be ceased because it is not of time which is in the form of "start" and "stop". To say that you "stop" believing implies you can separate yourself from existence. Kind of silly.
Faith started with the first breath and will never stop until the last even you have faith sit and a chair and tell what happens. The end result is faith. Nothing can make God go away.
I the answer to the question is "nothing will top me believing because I have faith", dont you think that is a little closed minded?
I guess you like to live a live as Forrest Gump stated. Oh well, what a shame.
I suppose I would adjust my view of things if there was discovered and/or presented some incontrovertible evidence that demonstrated the Bible or even some general notion of a spiritual reality and eternal God to be invalid - but the question is a bit like asking 'what would it take for you to stop believing your wife exists?' . . . I mean, I suppose I could wake-up from coma with some other wife or no wife, I could wake-up to discover I'm actually an 83 year old Korean woman, etc, and realize that all my life up to this point has been some kind of remarkably elaborate dream - but, not only does that seem outrageously unlikely but it's something you can't really evaluate as a circumstance to proceed with 'what would you do' type scenario.
Interesting. Most former believers report a similarly profound, life-changing shift in their thinking.
The question was inspired by the question asked of atheists by many theists, "what would it take for you to believe in God."
Talk about irrational to the limit of absurdity.
Believing in God is less stressful than it is believing God does not exist. You believe electrical current exist. Right! Did you ever seen it? Can you explain to me what is the reason you believe in electrical power yet you have never seen?
Actually I have seen electrical current. Look at lightning during a storm, lol.
But you don't have to see something with your eyes to know it exists--we feel the wind, we can smell things, etc. It just so happens that God is not accessible by any of the five senses.
Are you saying that unless we can perceive something with our senses then it does not exist?
Do you? If you felt that god or some supernatural being never at least "spoke" to you or made you "aware of its presence" that you would still bother believing it existed? Eventually, if it were solely intellectual belief, your mind would be like, "dude, it's time to let go." It is experiences that keep people going. How often to people base their continued belief in something on experiences, and ways that they feel they were affected personally? (which is involves engaging a sense or two)
No. Unless we can perceive something with our senses we do not know if it exists. Look at my response to the previous post--I was referring to knowing something exists.
Are you saying that knowing is perceiving then?
I see Cagsil hasn't changed. He still trolls the forums as if he owns them and being nasty unless however you happen to be a pretty looking girl which I am not! LOL!
I see you lack reading comprehension with regards to the forum rules.
I can see that you're continuing to guide yourself through the "spirit" whisperering in your ear....too bad you don't actually take time to think for yourself. What a shame.
What do you mean by - "too bad you don't take time to think for yourself"
For one finger you point at me there are three pointed back at yourself LOL!
Happy New Year Cagsil !
I'm not pointing a finger at you. I'm pointing out your actions. Therefore, there's nothing pointing back at me. But nice try.
You haven't told me which of my actions in particular got to you because normally it is the truth that gets to people. If it isn't true then why care?
Truth? It might be helpful if you knew what it was, which is what made me response to your post.
I don't care. I was just pointing out your actions, as I said. If you don't know what the actions are, then maybe you should open your eyes instead of typing on your computer with your eyes shut.
Are you saying that knowing is perceiving then?
Something like that. We obviously can't know something exists unless we perceive or sense it.
If perceiving is something we do with our five senses and is the way we interpret information we receive through them then what we perceive is what we make up in our brains. So your definition of "knowing" is what we all make up in our brains. This would account for the wide diversity in beliefs about anything including God. The reality we each make up in our brains is true to each of us and mainly based on our past experiences as those experiences play a major part in the dynamics of perception. So when you ask of "believers" you refer to everyone in the world because perception is all to do with belief. And asking what it would take for someone to change a belief well that is as hard for you to change yours!
No because you yourself create things that you imagine. It's not true for anyone else if you imagine something in your head and then pretend it's true for matters relating outside your head for everyone else. There was no external stimulus.
Also we have about 23 senses as the current estimate lies, 5 is the outdated estimate.
you see...it all starts with believing...instead of thinking...you hear it all the time...people will say they believe this and they believe that...believe in jesus...beleive in god...believe in no god...this is why we are in this mess here...in the world today...
there is such a huge difference between believing and thinking...thinking is open...believing is like taking thinking and putting it in a box...for example when a believer becomes unfriendly toward me...they are emotionally reacting to what they believe about me...the confusion here is that so many have been programed into believing...believing that believing is thinking...just look at how bad can you make yourself feel...through your own belief in your fears doubts and insecurities...think about it...
here in discussions...when i provoke any of you into engagement...i dominate your energy...through your emotional reaction to your belief... when there is thinking instead of believing you can acknowledge and see potential and possibility...and respond with a friendly thinking intelligence...instead of giving your energy to a belief reaction emotion...in which i dominate your energy and you feel powerless and frustrated and accuse...
thinking and being is our power and our relationship to life...believing destroys our power though believing in our fears and doubts and insecurities...sin guilt and blame is the name of the believing game...
when you say you believe this or believe that...then you are in essence saying...i am not going to think about it anymore...because you have concluded through a belief...and when there is belief...the conclusion of the belief closes you off to thinking and without thinking and acknowledging and seeing what it is...there can be no new day...only a belief from yesterday 2000 years ago carried over into this day...and you cannot think about a new day...because your belief has prevented you from thinking about the new...and without thinking and seeing there can be no relationship to life...you simply live in a 2000 year old delusion..
You asked me for a general explanation. In general, the idea is that we only know what we perceive, or what we think rationally about what we perceive.
There are two major ways a person in a specific situation might come to a false conclusion: (1) they may perceive something incorrectly, such as hearing voices in their head (they may think this is the voice of God, when it is really a hallucination or mental defect), or (2) they may think irrationally about what they perceive.
So while perceiving and thinking are the general processes in play, a given individual may err.
An example is God: many people conclude that God exists based on some observation such as "the beauty of nature." But this is irrational thinking, although the perception is correct/ legitimate. The false thinking leads to a false conclusion.
The bottom line is that we need many observations filtered through a rational thought process to weed out the flaws of individual people's senses and flawed interpretations.
No, it wouldn't, your reasoning is flawed. Believers claim their beliefs are based on faith and not on interaction with our senses.
I was going to go into another long spiel, but instead, here are some (useful) definitions!
1) (n) The state of being aware or informed.
2) (adj) Showing or suggesting that one has knowledge or awareness that is secret or known to only a few people.
1)(v) Become aware or conscious of (something); come to realize or understand.
2) (v) Become aware of (something) by the use of one of the senses, esp. that of sight.
3) (v) Interpret or look on (someone or something) in a particular way; regard as
Yet another who asks a question instead of answering the directed question. Ironic.
Did you say "current in lightning"? Did you notice how the entire nature respond when there is the flashing of lightning, accompanied by the roaring thunder? Awe and fear fill sthe air. What goes on in the mind of the believer, then: God is an awesome God. What goes on in the mind of the fence-sitter: There must be a God even though I don't care. What goes on in the mind of the atheist: What do you think?
Nature is the most powerful evidence that "God is"
Run and hide, the gods must be angry.
Lightning is a natural effect of electrostatic discharge in the atmosphere while thunder is the effect of air rapidly expanding as a result of the discharge. Neither has anything to do with angry gods.
Your initial question was "What will it take to make a believer not to believe in God anymore". It was wise of the ex-unbeliever to come to the point of believing after being convinced of the power of God's love.
Question: What wil it take the conciencous fool to become wise after the overwhelming convincing power of nature and the power of the Bible as God's word
Well, an atheist might think, oh look at the cool lightning... Or nothing at all. The "fence sitter" would probably think the same thing. When I was a christian, I would've and did think the same thing...
I forgot about the "Oh SH*T" reaction, especially when the thunder happens almost simultaneously. It's not god that I"m fearing, though...
What in hell does any of that have to do with the topic, LOL?
Nature is evidence of nature and nothing more.
What you infer from it other than evidence of itself is your own imagination and concentrated entirely withi your head.
Sight: I have seen 'God' just as I have seen the wind.
Touch: I have felt 'God' just as I have felt love.
Hearing: I have heard 'God' through many voices and mediums, just as I have heard you.
I haven't tasted nor smelled 'God', but 3 out of 5 ain't bad.
I suppose by that thinking, anything can be called "God." When you look at your car, you can call that "God."
What you experience as "God" may be God, or it may be something else entirely (an angel, a ghost, a hallucination, a shadow, etc). Given that almost everything ever experienced by people has had a natural explanation, it is likely that it was not God.
So, how do you know it was God you experienced?
You can utilise and control electricity. Can you do that with god?
What sort of a comparison is that? It is like comparing swiss cheese with the incredible hulk.
Let the madness begin??? When did it stop???
I know right D.S. The madness has continued for thousands of years and at present day has not end in sight for the average person who has no ability to see beyond themselves.
It was actually pretty complicated for me. But now, when I think about, I became a Christian lying on the floor, crying my eyes out, aware that I was an awful "sinner" and I "needed" Jesus, the process that began me losing was the same setting... 6 years later, though. After living a life very much dedicated to God, some people are still shocked that I am now something like Agnostic, but borderline existentialist.
I didn't just go to church, either. I mean, I basically lived there, but what I mean is that there are many people who I' sure would question whether I really believed or not, simply because I do not believe anymore. But I believed. I believed it so deeply, that I was willing to, and did, dedicate my life to Him, my goal to be entirely and solely for His work and purpose. I prayed every morning and night, and often throughout the day. Worship was my favorite thing to do, I read my Bible often and meditated on the scriptures, I wrote sermons, some of which I did in front of my youth ministry congregation, of which I was a leader. I took the "share Jesus Without Fear" course, and followed it as often as I felt the "Holy Spirit" was leading me, and when I didn't listen, I beat myself up about it. I beat myself up about a lot of things.
I wanted to have my "house in order," so I tried to get my mom to understand how important it was that she didn't die and go to "Hell" because it's not enough to profess Christ, but you must live your life, denying yourself, and actually applying the scriptures, blah blah blah. And now she sounds like me sometimes, and I wish I had never been that way with her about it, but I did what I believed, and when I believe something, I live it out, intensely.
To take you through the steps that ACTUALLY led me to leaving the faith however, would almost require a book, LoL. I can share with you though, that for a moment, because the feeling that I always had during worship was gone from me, I actually showed symptoms of going through withdrawal. There's a psychological experiment for you, LoL. I was literally lying on the floor in the fetal position with the chills and everything. I went through depression for about a year, maybe, a little more, though I'm a little in and out sometimes since then. Some of the emotional turmoil I went through opened up for me to question some things intellectually. There are some things that will never sit right with me, now, so it would be pretty much impossible for me to go that route again. I am not closed to idea of a god, but the Christian one isn't it.
I can tell you though, that for the devoted believer, it would take a LOT to no longer believe in the Christian god. I think it's a bit impossible to say that there either 100% is or isn't a god. That's really impossible to know, do to unavoidable problems with subjectivity, egocentrism(centered in or arising from a person's own existence or perspective), and a limited understanding of the capabilities of the brain, good and bad, physical, or "metaphysical." Things that you experience that may seem transcendent, may be really be happening, but not necessarily explained by a god. I've had the most interesting experiences, and people have had similar ones that had nothing to do with Holy Spirit in their situations because they were either of another faith, or just spiritual people, and can't be simply written away as something pertaining to "the devil" because it's different.
So, I guess you could say, while I'm not closed to the idea of a god, it's also not likely I'll believe in one either, because we're still such a young, ignorant species, quick to assign things a title of "supernatural" for the religious or "impossible" for the scientific community. I believe that many things are possible, and that we don't know all that there is to know, so in a way I'm open, but also closed in some aspects.
That's quite a story. Of course there are many things about reality that we do not understand. I also believe that God may exist. There just is no reason to believe it, like Big Foot or the Loch Ness Monster.
For unexplained events, the presence of a "sixth sense" or something involving the hidden powers of the brain (which is still poorly understood) would be more reasonable.
Even an explanation involving time-traveling aliens from the future would be more reasonable than to posit the existence of a supernatural world or entity.
There is still a lot of the natural world that we have yet to discover.
A Thousand Words, you may sound a non-believer but thank God you really are a believer. Your confusion is shared by many. But watching this video has further accelerated my belief in God and in Christ Jesus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRSjzY0s … embedded#! Fruther on another note, with laminin being in the form of a cross continues to bind the cells and tissues of the human body together, just as Christ wants the whole of human race, it being his creation, to join hands in helping destroy Satan and his minions through faith in him and good works with the show of love, humility and understanding, with kindness, charity and forgiveness to rule in this life. Impossible, if we so choose to follow the evil and deny Christ certainly yes, but in Jesus, no, for with God, all things are possible, as in Matthew 19:26. And you may as well become a great witness in his name to this truth. In due time and through more prayers invoking the guidance of the Holy Spirit I know you will as I pray for you. Godspeed as we keep Jesus in our hearts.
God needs help? I thought he was all powerful? Surely he can handle that which he created?
If a video about a guy who survived a plane crash increases your belief in a god what does a video about a guy who dies in a plane crash do?
Experiences continue people's faith and strengthen it. If you did not feel like God was responding to you in some way, do you think you could keep it up, considering it would likely become only an intellectual belief(barely)? That comforting feeling, assuring feeling, maybe the small voice you might "hear" or the situation you believe was divinely affected in your life.
Whether people want to admit it or not, we rely heavily upon our senses and emotions, even if with the spiritual it's only one or two. If you were completely numb you're entire walk with Christ, you would certainly not be able or willing to keep it up. So, certainly, I understand a story being able to further or even deter one from a belief. It happens all the time, whether or not it's in video format.
I am not a believer, actually. But, thank you for the kind gesture.
If I was to stand before God and find that God was a nig**r. That would definitely be a deal breaker for me.
Ain't no-way that God is a blu* g*m frikkin Nig**r.
To answer the question of whether or not something could make me stop believing in God, it would depend how strong my belief was.
Note: I am not a believer, I am an observer and nothing more.
for me to stop believing in god there would have to be a lot less scientific evidence of one and also less historical,archeological proof that the bible is totally coherent and worth reading
Nothing. There is no test that could ever be done to disprove it, and my personal reasons for believing are as solid as my reasons for expecting the sun to rise tomorrow.
i would stop believing in GOD if GOD did not exist. but since i met CHRIST in person as a three year old, it is difficult for me to believe GOD does not exist. put that together with the times HE saved my life, once even by causing me to breathe water to prevent me from drowning, and everything else HE has done for me or with me...there is nothing that can cause me to believe GOD does not exist.
Though I applaud your strong, heart felt faith towards God, is there a reason why you had to capitalize the whole names and references to your savior, and not just the first letter? It makes me feel like your yelling in the middle of the sentences...
Unless the believers had something happen/do something that would stop their beliefs, their answers will be nothing would stop me from believing in god. Spoken from experience.
Complete and utter destruction of me as a being.
I'm not a believer BUT I used to be. I was a Christian until my late teens.
The biggest factor was probably reading the Bible, once I'd read the entire thing I could no longer believe in the God I found there. I still believed in a God of sorts for a while after that, I sort of drifted in and out of a sort of new age deism and pantheism.
Some things that helped me overcome faith:
Skepticism - You have to be willing to question EVERYTHING you've been taught ESPECIALLY what you want to believe.
Empathy and Morality - Religion has a wonderful way of corrupting your morals by placing a moral authority above you. This moral authority, in the case of Christianity, is an extremely immoral God that has condoned slavery and commanded both genocide and human sacrifice in the past.
As a Christian I was conditioned to defend even the stories that made no sense or made God out to be a monster (such as the killing of the Egyptian first born). Once you stop the irrational defenses and really LOOK at what you're told in the light of real morality and compassion you can see the horror of religion for what it is. Moral Objections are one of the biggest reasons to reject religion.
Thirst for Truth - Goes hand in hand with skepticism. You have to care about what's actually true, not just what you're told or emotionally conditioned to believe.
Wait for the counter thread and ofcourse Mr. yochanan's holy logic(err truth) in almost both threads.
I have enough relationships in my life. I don't need another one.
You'll be praying for me, and I'll be thinking for you.
Nothing will make me stop believing in God. I think God loves everyone. But, I don't go to any church because I don't agree with a lot of thing the churches teach, but most of my hubs are about that. A lot of Christians don't like that, but it is still what I post on the hubs. By the way, you have a cute puppy:)
That's not surprising coming from you. Considering previous posts.
If we dont believe in god, sorry i mean if i don't believe in god, nothing is worthwhile........
Wow. That says a lot about your life.
You dont value your friends and family much do you?
If God does not exist, nothing is worthwhile. Sounds pretty pathetic.
Hey Joy, I guess you don't believe in yourself being worthwhile. It's good to know.
Your question is interesting...if we stop believing in God will our world stop? How will we breath? Who will take care of the birds in the sky or the flowers in t he field? Your question is one that can not be answered without an end to this world as we know it.
I can't tell you what it would take but I can tell you what happened - knowledge happened accompanied by a basic intellectual honesty. Belief in magic has a direct inverse relationship to gains in knowledge.
Believing in God goes above and beyond our intellect. If we can open our minds and our spirits beyond what we know to be true and what we are afraid of not being true, we can believe in God. We can absolutely feel God's presence through all of our senses if we have the ability to let go of our fallable intellect and open our hearts and our souls to what is always being offered to us on a spiritual level. If your heart and soul is open to God's knowledge and offerings you will receive it. If we are truly paying attention we can receive God's wisdom and guidance through our most important sense, Intuition.
What does opening our spirits have to do with mitosis? The intellect is our only protection from false belief.
It may go beyond intellect, but doesn't go beyond being/existing. Therefore, there's no logical or rational reason to believe a god exists to begin with.
You're forgetting one thing- human beings don't actually have a spirit. It's never been detect or found. And we as a species can detect everything happening to the body.
Untrue. You're senses are finding the consciousness that exists. You're attributing it to something else, so you can feel better or more comfortable, because you cannot explain it.
BS. You're passing along distortion and misinformation. How do I know? Because I was completely open when I was younger and held no disbelief that a god existed, and received nothing for my time.
Intuition isn't a god trait, sorry to inform you, but it's already known that the sub-consciousness brings about the "intuition". So, nice try, but try again.
If you feel that you need protection from believing in something that protects you, it sounds like you might have some deeper issues to address? Intellect is obviously one of the most important qualities of being a human being but sometimes if we over-intellect, it does a lot more harm than good.
Believers: What would it take for you to stop believing in God?
Why does it even matter to you?
The phrase, 'falling off the turnip truck yesterday" comes to mind.
Please explain...I don't understand how you can use old timey sentences to explain anything... .
That doesn't make sense...Where is the scientific prove behind the sentence phrase you just used!?!
It means you have conveniently forgotten/denied/ignored the last several thousand years of religious conflict and the current state of religious affairs and how they affect us all.
That's your definition of it...which I reject...BTW! I take the word "turnip" to mean something good nourishing, healthful, nutritious, organic, and a wonderful thing...in modern times. So, I still can not understand how you can refer to "turnip's" in a negative sense...especially with no prove to back up what type of a person would actually "fall from a turnip truck on yesterday"...anyways?
How far up were they when they would have (supposedly) fallen? At what rate of speed would they have been travelling?
Your phrase lacks the proper science justification...Please elaborate more on the meaning of this phrase...in scientific measure means...of course.
Now where did you hear a phrase like that, mam?
Precisely...(and he went quiet after I asked him the same thing). Mr. Science this and that...is free to reference any ol' timey nonsense phrase he chooses...while he chastises anyone who quotes anything from an old timey book that he makes references to as being nonsense. A double standard...and illogical hypocritical thinking displayed on his part...at its' very best!
I would suspect that either one of you could have googled it if it was so high on your list of priorities of understanding.
http://www.usingenglish.com/reference/i … truck.html
Oh Gee...thanks for the link...What'd ya' think? That we had "fallen off the proverbial turnip truck...yesterday...or something?"
Why does it matter to me.
It's an interesting question. It was inspired by the reverse question often asked of atheists.
I think the point of having a religious faith, is that it does not need to be based on evidence, at least not the kind that can be seen with the eyes. Faith therefore for someone who truly believes should be firm. It is only us atheists and agnostics who look for evidence to support our beliefs. Usually this means scientific evidence. However, science has the habit of changing.
Nothing could make me lose faith or belief in God. I have no choice in the matter.
Now, I could deny my faith to avoid torture, death or who knows what else. I can't see myself being fed to a hungry beast without flinching.
Belief . . . no . . . denial of belief . . . strong maybe. I don't want to find my limit right now. Do you have any pleasant thoughts or original thoughts?
This reply is to the author of this question. Before I answer this, I'd like to know why you're asking it. If you're just curious, I'd still like to know what it is that makes you curious. That may be an even better question. If you're asking so that you can ridicule the answer, I don't have time for that. I'll just say that the fact that ninty percent of everyone who ever lived, believed in a creator, makes a compeling case for me, so it'd probably take something bigger than God to make me swing south. Na .. I'm good.
Surely the fact that a lot of people believed in a god is not a good enough argument for you to believe in one? You have heard of the "argumentum ad populum" fallacy?
I think it is sad that people cannot think for themselves. The reason so many people believe in a god is because so may people are like you. They simply assume that the majority is right rather then bothering to research for themselves.
If you say that nothing will make you stop believing, well thats just closed minded and ignorant.
Ummmm .. To say that doing something just because other people are doing it isn't a good reason, sounds good on the outside, but we're talking 90% of everyone who ever existed. I would ask that if you were headed to Houston with a hundred other people, and you came to fork in the roads, and 90 of the cars were going left, while 10 went right, and you had to make a decision, which way would you go? I'm just saying ..
I'm not a scientist, but I DO have an Associates in Cosmology, and an Associates in Divinity. That doesn't qualify me to write a book on the subject for sure, but I'd imagine I have more knowledge of science than say the average person. I'd guess I have a better understanding of archeology than the average person, and finally, I'd guess I've had more of an oppertunity to study the great theologians of history than the average person. That DOESN'T make me any kind of expert I realize. I just mention it for the reason of establishing the fact that my level of intellect is higher than a giraff or something. The preponderance of evidence, combined with the statistic above, combined personal experience, allows me to accept some of the things that look a little wierd. In other words, the evidence answers to my intellect while not giving up all the answers. I've been in hundreds of debates over the years, and it always ends up at pretty much the same place in the end. I can't prove existance, and the other guy can't prove non existance. It invarriably, winds up with parrallel universes, mud babies, and things that seem much stranger than a creator in my humble opinion. The difference with me, is I acknowledge many of the things that an atheist believes as being wrong, or bad, or strange as being viable. I give everyone value.
However, if someone could make a tree FROM SCRATCH or something, while I watched em, I'd be perhaps a bit shaken. It's actually a fairly cool question.
As far as someone thinking for themselves, dial up Housefireproject.com You may not join up, but you'll definitly see I don't follow the normal path. I take a lot of pride in being a leader, not a follower. This thing doesn't apply to that rule though. I'm even a subject if controversary in my own church because I don't follow the traditions. If you only knew me my friend. (laughing) In any case, good point. Have a Happy New Year!
Evidence you say? I am intrigued. What is it?
As an atheist, I simply lack belief in a god. I dont need to provide any sort of explanation for the existance of the universe in order to make an assertion that it is not rational to credit the universes existance with a supernatural being for which there is no evidence.
I also dont have to categorically claim that there is no god. Atheism is simply the lack of belief in a god and no beliefs are necessary in anything else.
Anyway, back to this evidence, that's what it is all about afterall...
Baaaaaa... At least, that's the sound I should make by following your example.
Having a friend that is an attorney does not make me a lawyer.
Congratulations, or something.
Nicely put Jim. Part way through reading I was reminded of a joke.
One day a group of scientists got together and decided that man had come a long way and no longer needed God. So they picked one scientist to go and tell Him that they were done with Him.
The scientist walked up to God and said, "God, we've decided that we no longer need you. We're to the point that we can clone people and do many miraculous things, so why don't you just go on and get lost."
God listened very patiently and kindly to the man and after the scientist was done talking, God said, "Very well, how about this, let's say we have a man making contest." To which the scientist replied, "OK, great!"
But God added, "Now, we're going to do this just like I did back in the old days with Adam."
The scientist said, "Sure, no problem" and bent down and grabbed himself a handful of dirt.
God just looked at him and said, "No, no, no. You go get your own dirt!"
Parrster...i usually take great offense with jokes concerning GOD...but I liked that one.
LOL! Yes, that is a funny joke. Thanks for sharing.
People need to stop being so sensitive and reading into everything. It's just a question, people.
I'm sure you know that just because a position is popular doesn't mean it's true.
The question was inspired by the question often asked of atheists: "what would it take for you to believe in god?"
Anyway, it's an interesting question. Challenging. Kind of forces you to think, doesn't it?
Hahahahahahaha I infer something rather amusing from that.
I didn't realize I said anything to make you think I was overly sensitive. I said it was a great question. Let me just make it clear for the record. I'm not an overly sensitive person, and I didn't read too much seriousness into the whole thing. I just explained my position and why, while doing my best to answer your question. I don't do forums anyway. Nothing wrong with them, I just don't have the time for something that usually ends up with people insulting one another. At least that's what I've seen, but I could be wrong on that. Not sure what caused me to get this notice, but I'll look into it. Pease ya'll
You expressed concern about me ridiculing people, which seemed out of left field. But whatevs.
We've had some interesting responses so far from believers.
Say again?! Nope, didn't say you ridiculed anyone. This is getting a a bit wierd. Gotta go!
Do you have any pleasant thoughts or original thoughts?
Yes. Just check my hubs.
It depends on one's definition. I already don't believe in the cranky. bearded guy in the clouds that punishes us for being the way he made us. But as a symbol for all the generative, creative, binding, attractive, and passionate/compassionate juicyness of the cosmos, "god" seems as good as any.
And it's too late to tell me God is not real,
It's too late to tell me there is no power to heal;
Much too late to tell me there's no power divine,
He's already saved a poor old sinner's heart like mine.
Performed by the Greesons
You say that I am passing along distortion and misinformation? I think everyone on here, using their intellect, knows that my beliefs/opinions are not facts for anybody else but myself.
Can I ask? What were you expecting to receive for "your time"?
I simply meant that we can sometimes over analyze things. In other words, we can't see the forest for the trees.
Nothing. I will always believe. But is a interesting question.
I've been there.
Now, nothing can snatch me out of God's hands.
I'd like to turn this around a little: what would it take for me to become religious? :-) If God were a woman... The current religious world is far too male-oriented for me!
God is a woman. God is whatever you need her to be.
Which is ironic because women are universally more spiritual and more devout than men--across all cultures, across all religions.
I can see how a maternal instinct could lead to such an idea.
The idea of true religion is one of rescue of the true, spiritual self. Ego is the greatest stumbling block, because it is a false, impermanent self that pretends to be the real us. Do guys have the biggest egos? I've seen some women with pretty big egos, too. But ego takes many forms -- from tyrant to suicide perpetrator.
Any parent who loves their children will do anything to affect a rescue, including flood an entire planet in order to wipe out a genetic mistake like the one 28,000 BC. These bodies are not the children of God. The sleeping spirit within is.
What does it take to blind and incapacitate a spiritual immortal? Well, that's exactly what we did in the Garden of Heaven. So, now we're stuck in the madness of Homo sapiens bodies.
What does it take to awaken the sleeping immortal spirit? How does one penetrate the dreams? You give consciousness continuity--physical continuity as in a creature with the ability of intelligent speech and an ability to create civilization. That's the value of these Homo sapiens bodies.
And after millions of years, the value is about to bear fruit. Perhaps within our current lifetimes.
My hub "Women, gender and atheism" has plenty of info and sources (I can't link to it here because they will snip it). It's a very well-documented phenomenon.
Not a problem Secularist. I've got it covered.
... to a traffic snarled boulevard commuter.
And yet, @Verushka98, these male and female bodies are not the real us. Immortal spirit does not have "gender" in the physical sense. (So, no, God is not a woman or a man.)
The Bible says that no man can be changed by argument. it is the work of the holy spirit which can change a person. So I believe arguing on these things will not do any good. Theists and Atheists both will not accept each other because they believe they are on the right track always.
I believe we should have a personal experience with God. Until then we will not believe in Him. If we believe God by listening to other people's experiences and words, it will last for some time and then fade out when there is some problem or confusion.
However, I want to bring one thing to everyone's notice. The Bible challenges other books about the prophecies mentioned in it. There are 1000+ prophecies and out of them 500 prophecies have been fulfilled. 500 are yet to be fulfilled.
A mathematician calculated that the chances for 8 prophecies to become true is 10 Power 17. That is a huge number. And out of the 456 prophecies, it is 10 power 157 which is not possible with normal persons.
What do you say about the formation of the nation of Israel in 1948 wherein it was predicted 1000 years earlier in the book of Ezekiel? The Bible and Ezekiel book are already printed before 1948. I can show the list of all these prophecies. what do you say?
Good point, @suvitharoja. And what about the other signs found in Revelation for this "end times."
Like the appearance of the "great star" named "wormwood" that would spread its pestilence across 1/3 of the world. This happened in 1986 with the "heavy" (or "great") nuclear furnace (like in a star) at Chernobyl (wormwood), Ukraine.
And perhaps will appear in the near future as confirmed by Nick Rockefeller to Aaron Russo -- the "mark of the beast" without which commerce will prove impossible. Mr. Rockefeller bragged to Mr. Russo that people will soon be required to have a microchip implanted before they can do any commerce (like buy milk and cookies, or gasoline).
This beast is the heart of selfishness -- ego. These are the super rich who do not care about most humans. They would much rather see us dead or made into slaves. And their plan is working, just as it said in Revelation. Heck, these rich fat cats are the ones behind 9/11. I don't like what they're doing, but I like the fact that prophecy is coming true and that soon, those who love the Lord with all their hearts, minds and souls will find a new home.
Those who cackle in their madness of disbelief will be cast out. Ouch! Yes, @secularist10, that might mean you, too.
You can't top any better scientific explanation then "goobledegook". That's it...it's a wrap. A Troubled man just explained everything we needed to know with his heart felt and well thought out response of: "gooledegook". Well done...A Troubled Man...Sheez Louise
The "madness" began long before your question -- when each of us turned away from God and followed instead the cold, hard darkness of physical reality and ego.
Lonestar, what about the concept that thanks to rational, secularist discussion, breakthroughs such as equality for women, being kinder to animals etc?
Those were not religious concepts. If you look at religions today, they're full of racism and sexism.
Secularism has improved the world and made it a warmer and more loving place.
What do you say to this?
Dawkins explains it better:
If anyone can explain to me the evolution of fruit without sounding silly I will no longer believe in god
That really isn't too difficult...it's a method for seeds to disperse. It evolved for the same reasons that pollen evolved...
As did everything else, to propegate the species. With each new generation a better system would be developed. Hence the human eye or the seed of an orange.
Is that true or are you making that up?
If true, go to Google Scholar and type in "fruit evolution" - I found no less than 768,000 papers on the subject.
Say your goodbyes to God.
It is kind of difficult to actually try to explain all of the reasons of why and how it evolved, for example it evolved in a way that it wants to be eaten by animals in order to spread its seed. Doesn't that sound just a bit suspect to you considering survival of the fittest is the name of the game?
Nature is symbiotic in the sense that it shares everything, with everything else. We have all the makings of the nature of this planet, within our dna and so then, we must envibe of this earth to survive.
The animals eat the orange, poop out the seeds and a new generation is born. For every death there is a life. It is a natural cycle that will continue until the stars burn out.
It's true that we are very similar to animals, we even share 70% DNA with a banana but that doesnt explain how we evolved and the fact we are similar to animals could really just mean that we share a common creator as opposed to a common ancestor
Another point I want to make is that faith is not blind and it is something that grows with knowledge read Hebrews 11:1 for an actual definition of faith
I've had my fill of faith, but now it is time for me to grow. I know what faith is and it has it's place, but a good teacher would want you to embrace life, before one is locked down by faith.
Or read the Oxford English Dictionary, or Webster, or any other dictionary for a definition of any word...I don't think I'd accept a definition of any word from a book without a glossary.
That's easy enough: the only way believers of any god would stop believing is if their god showed up and it proved to be not what they thought it'd be. It would really put a stopper in the Abrahamic religions if their god was female, it might lead to a terrible end, actually. Until aliens drop out of the sky and take Tom Cruise with them, or the messiah actually shows up and proves, finally, how many of them got it wrong; or the rapture actually happens (I do look forward to it, a little peace and quiet in the countryside without bells and men on bikes would be lovely) there is no way to get anyone to stop believing, or getting atheists to start believing...ooooh, actually, if scientists find out where in the brain the beliefs come from, remove it in all humans out of some utopian quest to make everyone like them...it'd be all rather dull, wouldn't it?
We need belief...just ask the people that put up a 'nativity' scene for the Flying Spaghetti creature...I guess a good counter question would be: What would it take for you to stop believing in Science?
And yet if you corner the theory of evolution it proves itself unrealistic so u do put faith in unreality
The reality is we're alive wool! And I would never be so arrogant as to try to explain what the human brain cant even begin to comprehend, if we can't even comprehend our own brains how could we possibly explain everything else? I believe in a god because I don't believe that we could be the product of chance and yet for some reason that is questioned even though it's the most logical solution.
What is logical about illusion? We see the world as we see it and as individuals, the meaning will be different for everyone.
Google Scholar has 2,750,000 papers on the human brain alone. It would appear we are beginning to comprehend our own brains substantially more than you believe.
You really love google scholar haha but you seriously believe that just because people write a lot about a certain subject it means we understand it? Ask any scientist, even the most cynical ones will tell you we don't understand the brain
That's very philosophical of you haha, really no point in arguing anymore after that comment which is fine but in that case people really shouldn't be so critical of those who choose to believe in a higher intelligence than odour own
By studying philosophy you will never stop beleiving in god.
"I think, therefore I am." Rene Descartes.
Not neccesarily. I studied philosophy to better understand the illusion we see before us. It does not mean that I believe anything, just that I am interested in what others have to say about things.
Well this has inspired me to write my first hub hhaha take a guess what it will be about:) bye guys hope you find actual reality one thing is for sure don't look to religion to find it....well maybe Jehovah's witnesses jury is still out on that one
I will form my thoughts as an individual, whether I choose to believe in something is irrelevant. What makes me believe in something would be a personal thing and has nothing to do with how others see it. As I've said before "How could I make you experience my experience?". It is not possible and while the experience may be similar, it does not make it the same.
I have been discussing religion today with guests to my home. They told me that the Bible is the word of God, and that everything is literally true in the Bible. They also told me that God is a god of love and mercy. I then raised the issue of the many passages in the Bible where God's own words would seem to suggest that He is not loving, such as Psalm 137:9, where he suggests that happy is a man who takes the little ones, and dashes their brains upon the rocks. I stated that there were many hundreds of passages, where such language is used by God, including His order to the men of Israel, to take the women of their enemies, who are with child, and to rip them open. In response, I was told that such things are most certainly not in the Bible. To which, I produced evidence.
It seems that to believe in a loving father god, it is necessary to know only some parts of the Bible, whilst ignoring others. This person was surprised that the Bible contained such passages, because God is so loving.
There is nothing wrong with believing in God. In fact, such a belief offers the believer hope and a sense of purpose in life. And even if what they believe is not the truth, as long as they do not try by force to convert others to their beliefs, and as long as they are happy to accept people of different faiths, then I see nothing wrong with it. I do however, believe that someone should have knowledge of the religion of which they are a part. Yes, God may be loving, but He certainly gives orders to His followers which do not reflect this. Dashing out the brains of babies and ripping open pregnant women does not, in my opinion sound overly loving. But, who am I to question God?
When one can openly question reallity and not feel crazy, then there is where one can find whichever answer one is seeking.
If you didnt question things like 137:9 you would be a weirdo lol and the bible is not all to be taken literally, for example the genesis account of creation is not meant to be taken literally with its time period of a day. Read the bible for yourself you will know more about god than any catholic because they are tied down by tradition.
You are missing my point. Religion is for the minds of those that enjoy it. Reallity is for those that are aware. Awareness can be lost when one seeks truth. We are what we are and we follow what we follow. It will always be a personal choice whether intelligent or not. Of course religion is not an intellectual afare, it is a spiritual one.
@ muldania. It's true that there are passages in the bible that, on first appearance, are difficult. But often, as with Psalm 137, the problem is simply misunderstanding. This passage is not a cruel command, but a prophetic prediction.
Psalm 137:8-9: “O daughter of Babylon, who are to be destroyed, happy the one who repays you as you have served us! Happy the one who takes and dashes your little ones against the rock!
God is not telling Israel to smash the heads of their infants against rocks. Instead is a prediction of a time when Babylon will cruelly abused in the same way she abused Israel. The day is coming when an enemy will rejoice in its triumph over Babylon, and will be happy in the Slaughter. It was the Medes and Persians that conquered Babylon. She was completely overtaken and ruined by these empires. And just as she rejoiced in destroying Jerusalem and Israel, God says her conquerors will rejoice in destroying her, including her innocent infants.
God is not commanding such barbaric behaviour, but stating what the future will be for Babylon.. This was a fulfilment of Isaiah 13:15-16 - Everyone who is found will be thrust through, and everyone who is captured will fall by the sword. Their children also will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered and their wives ravished.
You should become an eastern philosopher, but really the only philosophical question worth asking is is there a god and if there is do what he says or you'll get smitten and be deans be dead forever and if there is no god try to live as best u can wether theres a god or not is for you to figure out
It is what it is but you need to realise that there may be consequences for what you decide is the truth so please make sure that you are sure that ur right, the bible says that god or as his name is jehovah wants all people to be saved (I'm no jehovah witness but they did teach me rightly that is his name) so I do hope he meant it and if god is there which is looking increasingly likely that he is he will give us a fair hearing. I for one would just like clarification I don't care if I live or die as long as I am shown what life is all about.
God is an aspect of the self and so therefore, is satan. We see god in life and satan in action. This is the point that many do not accept, that we are transposing our ideas into an outside reallity. It is not reallistic for me to tell you what or whom my God is. It is my responsibillity to tell one what is and is not. The illusion therefor is not neccisarily life it's self, so much as that we are in control of it.
It's not for us to tell anyone who god is but surely if he tells us himself we should listen?
If one is hearing God, then it is probably inner diallogue. If for some reason your inner dialogue is telling you something, then it is probably instinct and yes one should listen to instinct.
Sure we should listen to the Creator God.
ONE- the Creator God has talked to numerous people and in all the regions of the world; in our times he has talked to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.
Nature has not talked nor the science talks; these are deaf and dumb.
Im not talking about some weird spiritual experience I'm talking about if he tells us who he is through the bible, I'm confused also do u believe in a god or higher force or not?
Yes and no. I am the personification of myself and like all others am a child of God. This does not mean that any other person's beliefs are foolish or unobserved, it just means that I do not object to personal reallity of any kind.
Again, no such thing "personal reality".
Reality isn't affected by thoughts, desires, will or wishes.
Reallity is a perception and an idividual one. I will never see things the way you do, because I cannot see with your eyes or hear with your ears. This is a fact and no personal truth will abate such a thing.
So you can see with my eyes? Intersting... Can you show me how to do that?
I don't have to see with your eyes and even if I could...it wouldn't change the fact that reality isn't affect by what you see, because seeing something requires thought. And, thoughts have nothing to do with reality.
Reality isn't affected by thoughts, desires, will or wishes.
It is interpreted through personal experience. While there is truth, there is also personal truth, which I said, should not be meshed with factual reallity. Again I think you are just choosing words to disagree with and are not reading the posts themselves.
Excuse you, what you have described isn't reality. It's circumstances/situations for which you derive experience.
No such thing as a personal truth. TRUTH IS TRUTH, it is universal for all to understand and recognize.
I read your post and nonsense is still nonsense, regardless of YOUR context.
Wow! we are a hostile observer. are we not? You can read it and enjoy it or you can disagree with it, it's your choice. I will not force it down your throat and I do not wish any offense. I am merely pointing out what I see as a form of truth. Not physical truth, but the truth of how spirituallity works.
To take anything of this subject matter seriously is foolish and you will gain nothing from it. It is only philosophy and not some flawed perception of another. It is my flawed perception and I believe I am welcome to it.
Only when people have no ability to see beyond their own ego.
Considering 'spirituality' has not been shown to exist outside of the imaginations of believers, how can there be any truth to it?
Which is exactly what I've been saying. Everyone has a personal philosophy that is truth, to the person thinking it. It's so hard to put into words what I am trying to say. That is why I chat with people, such as yourself and others.
It doesn't hurt to be a little open minded.
I think that spiritual perception of reality is about using our inteligence in a clear and coherent way...being responsible and taking responsiblity...
Religious perception of reality is about giving your intelligence over to a belief...
That's fine, but if ones personal philosophy does not stand up to face reality, then how useful is that to anyone? It winds up being gobbledegook.
Cagsil, you seem to be as dogmatic as passionate religious folk. What you believe to be truth isn't necessarily truth. There may be some constant truth out there, but how we see it will be from a subjective viewpoint, no matter how objective we think we can be about the matter. Yes "truth" is "truth", but knowing it 100% percent is nearly impossible. We do our best to find what it may be, but personal experience and perspective will lead us in different difference. Thus different religions, or non-religious movements looking in different places for the answers.
A simple sollution to a complicated question. Then again, people like to think the answers they have are exactly the ultimate answer. When one speaks their own mind, a person who has their own answer will try and dispute it. The thing we fear most is change and if one's mind is changed, then they have to learn a new way and it takes forever.
It has taken my lifetime to get where I am and if I did not change, I would be as arrogant and stand offish as the next person. I must listen and say yes or nothing at all. I will gain nothing by clinging to my reallity and not trying to learn from others.
I meant to say "lead us in different directions."
Then, you are implying that eyes and ears don't operate the same way for everyone, yet they do. Eyes are meant to work on light coming in through the cornea, pupil and lens and then landing on the retina. This is simple basic anatomy.
Of course, some components of eyes work better than others, for example, the lens of the eye may not allow for the focal point to reach the retina or goes beyond it causing near and far sightedness, however these can be corrected with glasses.
Hence, you should be able to see the exact same thing as anyone else if your eyes are working properly.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Philosophical truth has nothing to do with the eyes, neither does experience. It is how we interperate the world that it becomes subjective reallity. I am not saying anything about the physical realm, more the mental aspect of it.
And just because I see the same things as others, does not mean I see them the same way. Everything physical and mental are up to the person recieving the stimulus.
But, that's just gobbledegook and means very little in the real world.
Yes, if you interpret the world to something it is not exhibiting, then it becomes subjective. How useful is that to anyone?
What it means is that you're creating your own reality (fantasy) to suit your beliefs.
As is the common theme in the world as is. We all have dreams and aspirations. I aspire to know things, not so much to believe them. I seek knowledge and awareness. I have to have some beliefs and a philosophy, because I am a martial artist. My belief gives me power and knowledge gives me even more power. I am a pragmatist.
I believe that I can explain it better like this. I don't believe in dogma, biblical truth and I have know knowledge of a God/god, in this universe, thus far. I will just accept the universe as it is and I will let it do with me as it wishes.
As a martial artist, you should then understand your power comes from within.
"There is no secret ingredient." Po.
Exactly. The answers come from within, not without. It does not matter what you do or what you follow. The answer is what ever you want it to be. I'm saying to believe anything, just accept it.
Not really, getting answers "from within" means one is usually relying on ignorance and emotions, which usually lead to similar concepts like religious beliefs.
One has to get their answers from reality, which requires both internal (senses, reasoning, thinking) and the external (evidence, experiments, agreement)
And you have never questioned yourself? Cerainly there must have been a time in your life in which something meant something to you?
We all have our own way of interpreting how we feel about things. It does not mean my feelings are any better than yours, so this is to say, that I'm not trying to one up you. I am merely stating how I see it. You can accept or not, it's really not up to me.
This question really caught my attention since I categorically believe in the existence of a power higher than any human discernment; that anything that exists in this universe has a beginning and that something or someone must have initiated everything and he/it knows what will transpire in the process of evolution (the evolution that is inherent as a package in the concept of creation)Some may call that Intelligence, God, others may call it "Universe" or Nature; no matter how they call it, the fact remains that the Cosmic power exists. It does not matter whether humanity believes in it or not, its existence is as valid as there are creations. One cannot blame the born blind if he does not see the colour red or any colour for that matter yet it does not also mean that just because such blind person cannot see, the colours don't exist.
And also when people argue on certain controversial matters such as faith, religion, politics; they don't really arrive on a standard truth. What is true and works for one, especially in the very delicate individual level, may not be true and won't work to another.
Therefore, I rather just let people believe in what they perceive as the truth, even if it does not agree with my own.
In answer to the forum miester. It would take a miracle....then again...isn't god responsible for those?
(It is how we interperate the world that it becomes subjective reallity)
There is no subjective reality. Reality is objective. Your personal views are meaningless to reality. If what you believe corresponds to reality, it is not because reality altered course to fit your ideas.
Opinion may not be reality. Opinion can effect reality, but not dismiss the reality of God. That is not a matter of opinion.
True, it is entirely a matter of faith, which is dismissed the instant reality is not affected.
The existence of God is not even a matter of faith. The acceptance of the existence of God is. Whether humans accept God, or not, does not change the reality of God. It only changes their perception of reality.
Have a prosperous new year, sister Troubled Man.
Yes, and along with reality, the perception of honesty and integrity are changed with the acceptance of God.
We can not has beleif in god, because we can has alerady is god.
It will be unnatural, unreasonable and immoral not to believe in ONE- the Creator God.
TO THE OP , HERES A CLUE FOR THE SLOW WITTED NON-BELIEVERS , .....Mankind hasn't stopped yet ,now Have they ? Grow up ! Perhaps a little faith spreading is in order ! I'll pray for you!
There is a lot said by unbelievers about being honest and "reasoning" properly; as if pure mental logarithms can diminish God. However, the source of our reasoning faculty is the human brain, a biological component that logically can only be taken seriously if it is itself the product of a greater genius. Unbelievers brains are telling them the greater evidence points to Gods non-existence. Yet, in denying the supernatural, they deny themselves the only source that gives any credibleness to their thinking ability. To quote a well known philosopher; “If minds are wholly dependent on brains, and brains on biochemistry, and biochemistry (in the long run) on the meaningless flux of the atoms, I cannot understand how the thought of those minds should have any more significance than the sound of the wind in the trees.”
No, the very fact we can think at all, gives me great faith in the ultimate Genius of a purposeful God. To put it in the words of a greater man than I;
“One absolutely central inconsistency ruins the popular scientific philosophy. The whole picture professes to depend on inferences from observed facts. Unless inference is valid, the whole picture disappears... unless Reason is an absolute, all is in ruins. Yet those who ask me to believe this world picture also ask me to believe that Reason is simply the unforeseen and unintended by-product of mindless matter at one stage of its endless and aimless becoming. Here is flat contradiction. They ask me at the same moment to accept a conclusion and to discredit the only testimony on which that conclusion can be based."—C.S. Lewis, Is Theology Poetry
CS Lewis was wrong. You don't have to believe in a superior intelligence to believe in the human mind. The human mind has evolved from nature, and that is why the reason and logic of the human mind confirm and are consistent with the laws of nature. It is our inherent connectedness (as evolved creatures) to nature that allows us to make sense of nature. The existence or nonexistence of God is irrelevant.
In any case, the major reason we should believe in the mind is that it is us. Simply by thinking, you are tacitly admitting "I believe in the ability of my mind, I believe my mind is real."
So even someone who declares "I should not believe in my mind!" believes in their mind because they must in order to come to that conclusion. God is irrelevant.
Do you have any examples where intelligence has been produced by non-intelligence?
evolution does not adequately explain life, least of all the mind, especially the mind of man.
So you say.
You might find this an interesting article, it's by a Doctor of Neuroscience
god is nothing more than an idea in the mind...when all your ideas beliefs and concepts fall away...Truth comes into being...
"""I maintain that Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally. Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organised; nor should any organisation be formed to lead or coerce people along any particular path. If you first understand that, then you will see how impossible it is to organise a belief. A belief is purely an individual matter, and you cannot and must not organise it. If you do, it becomes dead, crystallised; it becomes a creed, a sect, a religion, to be imposed on others."""
I think you may be having a knee jerk reaction to negative practices of others or harm done to you. Making a statement that God is merely an idea has no power beyond the thrill of making the statement. We can say "I am master of my own destiny."
It gives us a feeling of power and control to say such a thing. It is only a feeling, and it will pass when you see God (or whatever the name really is) face to face. My advise is . . . seek his face now. Look around and realize that you are on holy ground.
We need to organize to accomplish the good works that we should be doing. There is no excuse for the human condition. It is our responsibility to change it. I can't do what I have been called to do alone. I need your help!
[god is nothing more than an idea in the mind...]
I respectfully disagree. God is the original Mind behind everything. There is no other feasible option.
[when all your ideas beliefs and concepts fall away...Truth comes into being...]
Not necessarily. If you happen to believe something that's true, letting it “fall away” might not be the best idea. But I respect what you're saying.
Interestingly, the quote you give is self defeating it what it teaches. It professes that truth cannot be found by any one path, but, as the speaker admits, “this is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally”. ABSOLUTELY, UNCONDITIONALLY! That sounds awfully like a path he's on there; the self-enlightened path. And, yet, it's only his opinion, therefore there's no loss to anybody if they choose to ignore it.
Compare your quote, to this quote, “I AM the way, the truth, and the life, NO ONE comes to the Father except through men.” [Jesus Christ]
(Yet, in denying the supernatural, they deny themselves the only source that gives any credibleness to their thinking ability)
I would like to see the warrants for this assertion. Problem solving and tool utilization is not limited to human brains as both primates and crows have been shown to do both. Do crows and chimps believe in the supernatural? Did the supernatural grant these animals the ability to think?
Or is it more likely that we share a common natural process of which the human brain is more advanced?
Neuroscience keeps showing that Descartes was most likely wrong, that we think because we are rather than the other way round.
Winston, would you therefore propose that evolutionary process has brought man to a point where his brain invents God? Yet evolutionary theory proposes that adaptations are geared toward the survival of a species. Therefore, it follows, evolution has bought about this need to believe in God for our survival. Why then are many unbelievers saying that faith in God is detrimental to our species. Which is it? To deny there is a God may well be standing in the way of man’s evolutionary progress.
Of course, I don't follow that line of thought. God created both man and beast. He did so with unique limitations and intentions for each.
There are few sciences as infantile as Neuroscience, I wouldn't hinge my beliefs and hopes to emphatically in that department.
The point of all religion, is to instill a form of enlightenment into the follower. At some point the teaching was misinterpreted and the true meaning was lost. Jesus did as the Buddha, he spent his life imparting a form of wisdom. And as being like The Buddha, he also told his followers to find the truth and be enlightened by it.
This is not reallity to follow the deity, but the teaching there of. If it involves though the need for violence, then it is uneccesary. Of course it doesn't really matter, one should not worry about it. One should paint if he is a painter. One should write if he is a writer. Do as we do and learn along the way. We should live while we can and let go of yesterday and tomorrow, we should just have now. These are the teachings of the great masters. Be yourself but be cordial and merciful.
Well, i think it's more the gear towards God makes it much simpler to live. Not saying that there aren't martyrs for the cause, and that religious people somehow magically have lives without suffering or pain, but rather there is a security and assurance, strong connections and pathways made in the brain, comforts and peace that is hard to find outside of organized religion or a structured religious viewpoint. It's easier to believe in something big, and to not question it too too much, besides trying to understand it better to believe it more strongly and live your life accordingly.
Sure, there are people who live their lives quite fine who are non-religious, and have peace that's not founded in the supernatural. But it's harder for the majority of people to be that way, when the religious are in high number and firmly hold on to religion as the basis for peace, understanding, "salvation," goodness in general, etc, and this mindset is constantly perpetuated and laws and society are built around these religiously based values, that the people more successful in it are those who also see the world in a similar way, and the people who want to strive to be that way for acceptance, etc.
Also, unfortunately, those living in a society influenced by the often absolutist views on ethics/morality, who rebel against those views, religious(but not devout) or non-religious, tend to make really bad decisions more often which leads to death by alcohol poisoning or from major STD's and making bad decisions in general. The devout and "striving" ones truly fear the consequences of such behavior, and thus tend to be more adept to survive, and steer clear of self destructive behavior, and to survive, the self destructive people tend to then seek out those religious institutions, increasing survival rate. Now it may just be a coincidence, or it may not be, who can know, for sure?
Now this is not an always the case thing by any means. It's simply my take on the matter from what I've observed and past experiences and such. I could be open to the idea of me being wrong about such things. (I'm also half asleep)
Very well said, in my opinion.
I would Agree that living as a Christian, or at least, the way I’ve lived it, makes life simpler as the way you described it. As for whether or not this simplicity is a reason or even the main reason (consciously or unconsciously) why some choose to put their trust in it, I guess that varies with the person.
I remember thinking to myself when I was a teen: “I have to believe in God because…it just makes everything easier and simpler.” Or “I have to believe in God because I just can’t stand the idea of there being anything other than that. It’s too wonderful of an idea. Things in this world just CAN’T be that bad!” I then realized how silly that sounded. Would it not be better to believe in something because it is true? And from thence my quest for truth…it has led me in many different paths.
I like you AshtonFirefly.
I think I have stopped looking for the quest for truth outwardly, though. From experiences, I've begun to think that what we're searching for is closer to home then we imagine. I like certain concepts such as this in Buddhism, looking inward for truth. I think once we start getting in tune with our bodies, we'll find ourselves really understanding better what "God" just may be. I like the idea of the Tao and the "Force," (Jediism is a religion now, yes, LoL) But it may not be as separate from us as we think.
We all have a conscience, that sometimes we ignore or even our religion conflicts with it, and we convince ourselves that we are in the wrong. But there is something innate in us, that may or may not be divine. I don't mean "voices" either. I find I don't have those anymore (talking about what I believed the Holy Spirit, not the "go kill that man" kind of voices). It's something different almost intuitive, hard to describe, can only be experienced. I think we are afraid that we might be stronger than we realize, and that truth may not line up with what we're constantly force fed to believe that it is.
I don't have the evidence for this, and may be challenged for saying it, which I am not closed to. I know experiences isn't the best road to go down. But I'm really starting to realize that experiences is all we'll really ever have. That we can only ever get so close to whatever truth may be, because we ourselves get in the way and thinks there's a way around that problem.
Subjectivity, ego. Not bad. And impossible to live without. The degree to which they rule us can be different, though. But we are chained to them and they to us, I believe.
Lol well thank you I like you too AThousandWords
I don’t hold the same conclusion as you, but I really like your approach to life. Anyone who is willing to take a risk and dare to ask themselves to see past what they have been taught, what they’ve always believed, and to ask themselves, “what is really the truth” is very inspiring to me. Doing that takes a lot of courage and sadly most times incurs much ridicule from those who have indoctrinated us with those ideas. I applaud you for this.
Although I am not familiar with Buddhism, etc. but all religions have always fascinated me. Maybe because they all claim to be correct. Maybe it is because most faithful adherents to religious faith do so simply because they have been force-fed to do so. In any case, they are all extremely interesting to me.
I really like what you said here: “But I'm really starting to realize that experiences is all we'll really ever have. That we can only ever get so close to whatever truth may be, because we ourselves get in the way and thinks there's a way around that problem.” This has been something I have begun to realize, myself.
I have put a lot of thought into the concept of God, of other religions, of atheism; all of the questions, dilemmas, evidence, arguments, philosophies, theories, etc. I, previous to this time, made a decided effort to study them all in depth and then I realized: this probably would do me no good. It will all boil down to an experience, or rather, what I feel or think is correct, based upon my own experience. I may read a billion theories about logic, God, the universe, science, etc…but if it doesn’t make sense to me in an experiential sense, I’m not likely to think it is correct. I think we, as humans, put more trust in our own personal feelings about the issue than we really understand. In the end, will we choose the concept or belief in what makes logical sense, or….what works for us?
(It will all boil down to an experience, or rather, what I feel or think is correct, based upon my own experience)
I appreciate what you are saying here, and what you have gone through and are going though, but I would like to offer an alternative and explain the reasoning behind it.
You are essentially talking about intuition. Unfortunately, as humans, our sentient experiences often lead to wrong conclusions - the old hag down the road looked at me funny and now my asparagus crop has failed - damnable witch!
Correlation and causation are two of the most difficult ideas to validate. Humans are remarkable at finding patterns - unfortunately, that includes as many false patterns as valid patterns.
Intuition tells us the earth is flat because it looks flat. It tells us the earth is stationary and the sun moves across the sky. It tells us that we are the center of the universe.
Reasoning trumps intuition if chosen. Many seem to think that reasoning is a cold and uninviting place to be, but that is not accurate. Reasoning is simply a tool used to tame the emotional beast at the heart of humanity.
If you want to know whether or not god exists, the best place to look is within your reasoning skills - and not allow your flat-earth self to decide.
“You are essentially talking about intuition. Unfortunately, as humans, our sentient experiences often lead to wrong conclusions - the old hag down the road looked at me funny and now my asparagus crop has failed - damnable witch! “
Haha, you are right, this would be a very false conclusion. I will admit I have discovered myself making very illogical conclusions which to me, at the time, seemed perfectly logical—only to unravel upon closer scrutiny. My emphasis with respect to “experience” was not upon the “it feels right and so it must be true” concept, but rather as follows: in my own personal experience, there have occurred to me many phenomena, events, and feelings; I have studied many religions, philosophies, scientific concepts, etc. All combined together have led me, through my own reasoning and best attempt at unbiased reasoning, to contribute to my inclination to believe that a God exists. I know there are those who debate with me upon my method of reasoning or the way in which I came to that conclusion. But the one thing I did not do was come to that conclusion by a “feeling.” It was through what I considered to be use of logic, as best I knew how to apply it.
Since I grew up in a Christian home, however, I know that many automatically accuse (I’m not saying you are) that I was already more inclined or favored toward that position. However, I assert that the very fact that I was raised in a Christian home and in effect force-fed beliefs was what caused me to rebel against it. Since my teens I have attempted to unbelieve everything I ever believed about God, the universe, etc. and start from scratch. Whether or not I am correct, it has led me here.
The research and study which I personally have devoted to reason, nature, logic, psychology, religion, science, physics, scientific theory, etc. has led me to support a particular worldview which does not violate any logic or reasoning but in fact, makes perfect sense to me. I do not feel I have to defy any logic whatsoever to believe what I believe. However, as I said, simply feeling that I am being logical may not necessarily be an indication that I AM. For I have thought this before, and I was wrong. The most I can say is that, at this point in my life, with the attempt at being as objective as I know how to possibly be, I favor a worldview which supports the idea of a God. It was not my feelings which led me to believe so; it was through study of all of the different aspects of humanity combined which led me to the inclination that there is probably a God. I am, however, aware of my own need to learn. I don’t feel that reasoning is a cold and uninviting place. I welcome reason and attempt to develop it as much as I can.
I don’t know if any of what I said made sense, but thank you for commenting, and thank you more for your politeness even while contributing a differing opinion. It’s very refreshing.
I don't think that anyone could ever convince me that God doesn't exist. There have been times in my life when I was at my lowest point and I didn't believe I could ever recover from the chaos I created. Yet some very special people helped me regain my sense of self and recover from a hopeless state of mind. I personally believe that a power greater than myself had to put those people in my life in order for me to know there was hope for me. That's been my personal experience. I know that I learn new things every day so I remain open to changing my mind should new information make itself known. But for now, I remain convinced that God exists and guides me every step of the way.
It makes a lot of sense AshtonFirefly. I've been in a similar process of studying other religions as well, and what they truly believe, not just what your taught about them from a Christian viewpoint. While I am hesitant to outright say there is or isn't a God, many my own experiences, quite similar nature to what you mean by experiences, are leading to a different idea of what "God" is entirely, to me, and I feel Eastern thought in some ways has quite the grasp on it, mainly what I've read about Taoism (not so much the folk-religion side of it).
I have not come to any definitive answer yet, but I think I know where I'm headed. Although, honestly, that forum called "Why Jews Don't Believe in Jesus" has shed some SERIOUS light on basically all of the things that I find to be distasteful about Christianity, and if I were to say 100% that there is a God again, the Western idea of one, I would seriously consider Judaism. Read the posts by Truly Different, they're FASCINATING.
Winston. Your old hag analogy is definitely intuition (feeling), but the flat earth and stationary earth references are examples of logical inference (reasoning), albeit falsely assumed inference. Human reasoning can, therefore, also be trumped by inaccurate premise.
That said, inference is primarily based on what seems most obvious (self-evident). In a court of law, this is referred to as prima facie, the evidence essential to presenting a case; in fact legal proceedings can't commence with it. It is this evidence that is then tested for validity.
In regards God, humanity has almost unanimously agreed: It is obvious there is a God.
In a court room, a lawyer would reprimanded for saying, “If you want to know whether their guilty or not, the best place to look is within your reasoning skills - and not allow your flat-earth self to decide.”
The evidence for God has already been presented in the spectacular marvel of creation. Our reasoning has accepted that prima facie.
If you disagree, prove it, but don't tell us that we're not reasoning!
Your honor, I submit to the court that it is self-evident an invisible super being waved his magic hand and created our universe. There is no evidence to be tested however no other alternatives could be possible.
Your honor, yes I understand that only 3 out of 4 people agree there is a god and that no can agree on which god out of the thousands believed is the one true god, however it is self-evident that humanity has "almost" unanimously agreed.
Your honor, although there is no evidence to test and that nature only exhibits characteristics of evolution and abiogenesis, I submit the court ignores the mountains of hard evidence in favor of those theories and accept what is obviously self-evident.
The defense rests.
Very good thoughts. Sometimes there is no choice. Revelation is a reality only to the one who receives it. Spiritual truth can be found, or it may be thrust upon us. It can be denied, but what is the point in denying what we know in the very core of our being is true? Before time ends, every knee will bow.
(I wouldn't hinge my beliefs and hopes to emphatically in that department.)
Instead you would base you beliefs on thousands of years old oral tales that were scribbled after-the-fact by sand nomads who were mostly illiterate?
Yet you call post-Enlightenment neuroscience unreliable.
Curious choice about reliability you make.
And yet the biblical scriptures are considered, from a literary perspective, one of the finest works to be found, from any period of history; not bad for sand nomads.
That said, the evidence of Gods existence stands with or without written text, clearly seen in the glory of creation. That some reject this evidence, does not reflect back to me as "enlightenment" at all, anything but.
One of the most enlightened people I know of is a neuroscientist, and a Christian. Go figure.
AKA Winston...chimps, crows and all other animals, and even insects do not have a problem with the existence of GOD. they all KNOW HE exists anad they obey HIM. just because GOD gave them brains that can think does not mean they are equal with man in their standing with GOD. the difference is that man was given the right to choose to accept or reject their CREATOR...animals were not.
(chimps, crows and all other animals, and even insects do not have a problem with the existence of GOD. they all KNOW HE exists anad they obey HIM)
tlmcgaa, aka-dr. doolittle,
You read the minds of animals and insects, huh? Pretty cool. And they tell you they know god exists. So how do they know and mankind does not?
Btw, can you find out which horse will win this year's Kentucky Derby?
As usual, you miss the point. BIG TIME.
Just where did you get your brain function from?
Your heart beat?
The chemical reactions in your body that are in (near) perfect harmony?
Oh, yes, I remember, some accident in a primordial mudhole in a world and time FAR FAR FAR away, which upgraded to us humans, by . . . well . . . mere chance.
That's reasonable and logical. NO QUESTION..
i may not speak the language of animals, quite, nor read their minds, quite...but i dont have to to see with my own eyes them obey the GOD they know exists. mock all you want, you are the one who will deal with the consequences of it.
(As usual, you miss the point. BIG TIME)
Perhaps you have difficulty with reading comprehension? The lady made it plain what her point was: "chimps, crows and all other animals, and even insects do not have a problem with the existence of GOD. they all KNOW HE exists anad they obey HIM."
That she "know" what is in the mind and motives of animals must surely be newsworthy, don't you think?
I'm sure that it doesn't matter that one believes in animal consciousness. Instead of worrying about the minds of ohters and what they think. It does not matter. Be content and be peaceful. Arguing on such a mundane idea will get us nowhere. The conversation is what matters, not the subject matter.
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