Introducing Idle Hubs

1. 88

   Victoria Lynnposted 11 years ago

   Actually, the majority of my traffic comes from Google, so I don't mind updating hubs to make them better. Right now, I  have a few ZZs, and I've revised them. A few were poetry, but not many. Most needed more content, more of something. I'm willing to see how this all goes. I'm hoping my traffic will increase with the revisions.

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2. 88

   Victoria Lynnposted 11 years ago

   That's a good point, thisisoli. Maybe the notice should let the hubber know and give them the choice of de-indexing.  Perhaps.

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3. 90

   Millionaire Tipsposted 11 years ago

   Paul,
   
   My Hubber Score is over 80 and much more than 1% of my hubs are asleep.  I understand the My Favorite Hubs series being asleep; they don't get much traffic past the week they are published.  The hubs about the challenges are also asleep, and although I think they are useful, I am fine with letting them sleep as well.  I also understand most of the book reviews, since the books are no longer popular, and since most of my book review hubs are of poor quality. 
   
   But that still leaves several hubs with high hub scores that are asleep. This one has a hub score of 83:
   http://millionairetips.hubpages.com/hub … oing-Broke
   This is at 82:
   http://millionairetips.hubpages.com/hub … ift-Stores
   This is at 81:
   http://millionairetips.hubpages.com/hub … oing-Broke
   
   I haven't read these recently, so I am sure I can tweak them, but it seems like hubs with scores like these should not be the ones I need to be tweaking.

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   1. 61

      paradigmsearchposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I tweeted, pinned, and liked your Thrift Store one. Let me know if anything happens.

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      1. 90

         Millionaire Tipsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Thank you paradigmsearch. That is very sweet. I brought them up, because in the past, I thought that a higher Hubscore meant that they were pretty good quality hubs. If I was going to delete and/or remodel hubs, I would have started from the bottom, chopping down most of them, and then getting to tweaking the ones higher on the list.  I wasn't expecting the zzzs to start so high on the list.
         
         Maybe if I had been more free in chopping the lower hubscore ones, I would find this number of hubs to tweak more manageable. Right now, I feel like I have walked into Sleeping Beauty's castle, and in this case, I need to kiss each and every single princess in the building!

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      2. 90

         Millionaire Tipsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         
         
         Right now, I have two red arrows, and a sleeping sign.  I am hoping that the idling hubs get refreshed everyday, and I just haven't waited long enough. I am deliberately not making any changes to these hubs to see whether traffic by itself will take off the idle sign.

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         1. 61

            paradigmsearchposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Excellent! The results will be interesting.

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   2. 74

      Horatio Plotposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Hi MT. How about simply changing the title of the first one to, "How to Make a Family Tree for Free". That title gets 3,600 broad monthly searches. It's a good hub, so why not just make it more search friendly.
      Job done.
      Horatio

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      1. 90

         Millionaire Tipsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Thank you Horatio, I will try that.  I did notice that two of the hubs had "without going broke" in the title and wondered if that might have something to do with it.

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4. 58

   Alternative Primeposted 11 years ago

   Paul E,
   
   Please forgive my over exuberant passion and vigor with respect to this vitally important topic, but I'm sure you can understand how all expert authors such as myself have "Heated Up" over the prospect of our hard work falling victim to what many perceive as an ill-conceived plan to unilaterally "Strike Down" artistic expressions -
   
   Perhaps a "Hub" is "Sleeping" because it covers a subject that is infrequently "Searched", or possibly out of season, or for any number of other reasons -
   
   How does this factor into the assertion contained within this new policy which apparently defines a "Hub" with intermittent views as lacking in "Quality"?
   
   Did Google explicitly advise HP to "De-Index" Hubs which currently receive intermittent traffic or is this your interpretation of the information provided to you?

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   1. STAFF

      Paul Edmondsonposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Yes a Hub may be in Idle state if it is infrequently searched (plus other factors.  I'd encourage you to update your Hub a bit and report back on your experience.
      
      
      
      New Hubs are processed as part of this system, but it doesn't mean our algorithm perceived it to be low quality.  It's fine and may be healthy to have some Hubs in this state.  Please see the learning center.
      http://hubpages.com/learningcenter/Feat … -Idle-Hubs
      
      
      
      We did get feedback from Google on this change as well as from other SEO experts.  No indexing content can have a significantly positive impact.  While they don't say exactly which pieces should be no indexed, we do try and interpret what are good candidates.  No algorithm is perfect, but we are confident that this one is low downside risk and we hope it has good upside and long term growth associated with it.  We will continue to iterate on it.
      
      Also, folks should note that there is likely to be little change until the site is fully re-indexed and Panda and Penguin are run again.  We also don't think this will be a breakout move, but we believe it will put the community on a path for steady growth.

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      1. 61

         paradigmsearchposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         I've just self-ZZZ'd 3 more candidates; as in unpublished,de-indexed/url removed. Soon to be either deleted or transferred.
         
         There is a lot more I want to do. When do you think the next site re-index will be? I'd like to be sure that I've got everything done before then.

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      2. 53

         janderson99posted 11 years agoin reply to this

         I think it is a bit heavy handed to automatically remove ZZZ Hubs from Topic Pages. Was this required as part of the de-indexing process (site maps)? Or was it a policy decision so that these pages cannot be found. I think that this considerably detracts from the benefits of the HP writers community. Many people write value articles on obscure topics including many creative articles such poetry, history etc. These may be part of much larger portfolios of articles for writers that attract a lot of traffic. Many people may arrive at HP via a search but may want to explore other topics while they are visiting. I think that this policy destroys much of what the HP community is about, especially given that many of these articles are of high quality and valuable. Surely de-indexing these is enough without deleting them from the topic list. This denies the quality ones the chance of getting internal traffic and getting organic links that could eventually mean they increase their popularity via links. I think that this may cause may quality writers to leave HP.

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      3. 90

         Millionaire Tipsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Paul, when you say " We will continue to iterate on it. " does that mean you have set the bar low and will keep raising it it up until you are satisfied with the ranking, or are you saying you have set the bar where it should be, and you will tweak the program to make sure it functions in real life the way you were expecting it to?
         
         Or are you saying you will continue to run the program repeatedly to continue to find more idle hubs?  I can see how this rerunning will help you find more hubs to idle, but can this program also go the other way, and help you find hubs that no longer should be idle?  I have idle hubs that now have traffic.  I would think this program should take them off idle instead of requiring me to still tweak them.
         
         How often are these iterations going to take place?

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5. 82

   snakeslaneposted 11 years ago

   Hub Pages is a good venue for writers to meet other writers and receive feedback on their work. I love that. For me it's been an opportunity to create an online 'portfolio' that is available for friends and family to visit. I wasn't expecting much more than that. While I can see the potential in finding a niche, and writing 'commercial' content, I haven't got the experience or the confidence to go that route, although I certainly admire those who do. I understand that Hub Pages needs content writers, but clearly I am not one of those. It is good of Hub Pages to give the 'creative' writers a home even though they do not bring home the bacon. I wonder if there is any place online for the poetry and fiction?

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   1. 90

      Greensleeves Hubsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      snakeslane, I would hope that HubPages will remain a good venue for all kinds of writing - factual and educational, commercial and promotional, and great creative writing including poetry and fiction. That's what it has always been claimed to be - a site where anyone can publish quality content and make it available to the world. I hope your work all receives sufficient viewings to remain listed - if it doesn't, then that is a sorry day for writers on HubPages who believe that the reputation of the site is best served by quality output rather than quantity of views.

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   2. 86

      aa liteposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Now I am confused, do your 'friends and family' find your  creative writing hubs through Google search?  If not, and if you are writing for them rather than for commercial reasons, then why do you care if your hubs are indexed by Google?

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      1. 82

         snakeslaneposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         I am actually ambivalent at this point, as much of my work is (surprisingly) not Zzeed. Mostly I was adding to  prior comments acknowledging that creative writing is not valued in an online marketing environment.

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         1. 86

            aa liteposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Yes, it does come across that way, although I don't really think it is the message they want to give.  I think the word 'marketing' is key to the feeling of not being valued.  I don't think it is so much that it is not valued, but that usually creative writing online doesn't attract much traffic, and therefore earnings through Google searches.  Because of that I don't think it will make much difference to them whether they are indexed or not.  Therefore logically people who write creating content can keep writing as they did before, and they will not really be affected by the change.
            
            The big problem is the perception that de-indexing means that the site thinks the hub is of low quality.  In some ways the feeling is completely justified, the idle hubs idea is there to remove low quality content from the site that is hurting people who need the Google traffic.  But the algorithm used is a very blunt instrument, it's like cracking a nut with a nuclear bomb.  Perfectly good hubs that do not offend Google in any way, but don't get much traffic for whatever reason, are the collateral damage in the attempt to clear out the rubbish that is hurting the site.  The problem is that it is impossible to have a computer algorithm that can really tell good quality writing from bad.  But keeping Google happy is, sadly, necessary for this site to survive.

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            1. 89

               Will Apseposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Its not just keeping Google happy, although you will get nowhere without that, it is making sure that the pro's and semi pro's can make a living here or at least get a reasonable return on their labor.
               
               We all love the creative side but it won't pay for servers, staff etc, etc.
               
               With views sliding more or less relentlessly since January something has to to be done. If this extra rigor with the featured pages gives the site a noticeable boost it will be worth it.

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6. 0

   The Writers Dogposted 11 years ago

   Time to start deleting and reposting my top Google ranked Hubs elsewhere. And no, it is not a rage quit as I saw somebody say. It is a principle removal.

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7. 66

   GDiBiaseposted 11 years ago

   I already notice a change in my earnings I make I and now down to 10 cents and under a day. Everyone has always told me that once hubs age is when the earnings grow, that older hubs were what brought us the earnings.This is pathetic!

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   1. 86

      IzzyMposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Since we split into individual subdomains in order to recover from Panda, many of us have experienced traffic highs and lows, when Google either suddenly sends us loads of traffic, or takes it all away.
      
      Looks like your subdomain has been hit, but hang tight, it will probably come back in either days or weeks.
      
      There was another 'flux' yesterday. One of my other subdomains saw the sudden withdrawal of all Google traffic, and this is the first time this particular SD has been hit.
      
      It has nothing to do with this latest change, idling hubs, as that is due to be put into practice today, though at what time I have no idea.
      
      The whole 'idle hubs' thing is probably being introduced to try and stop these extreme traffic variations.

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   2. 82

      TamCorposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      My husband and I have a combined Google Adsense account--we are averaging about a penny a day with them, and that is for over 200 hubs, some at least a year old, but most more than that.
      
      My own traffic has never recovered from the Panda strikes, and like I said before on here, I had over 50 of my hubs marked with ZZZ's the other day.  I pulled about 30 of them, and tried tweeking the others, but I don't hold out much hope anymore.
      
      Was it Gamergirl who called us "ragequitters"?  That's ridiculous.  This has been a long time coming for me, and my husband.  And if we completely call it quits here, it will be after long consideration, and NOT a spur of the moment decision...we've been on HP for over 3 years, so it's not something we want to just toss under the bus, so to speak.
      
      But when you spend years on a site, you usually prefer to make more than a penny a day at it, and you also like to have more than a day to two to make hub adjustments before they basically pull the plug on them.  My husband didn't get the chance to even touch any of his that were marked for de-indexing--he has a regular full-time job--so the majority of his hubs will go idle today, I guess.

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      1. 86

         IzzyMposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Hang fire on unpublishing hubs. You may find that this change will bring all your traffic back, and if your hubs are interlinked, new life will be put back into the dead hubs which will then come out of sleep mode.
         I think that is the aim of the while 'idle hubs' thing.
         
         I haven't counted, but I think approximately half of my hubs have been zeed, so I am eagerly waiting with anticipation for the return of traffic to those hubs that are featured. Then we will see if any of those dead hubs get awakened through readers following links.

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         1. 82

            TamCorposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Izzy--I'm not un-publishing anymore for the time being.  I'm going to give the ones I still have up a little more time.  A lot of those are linked together, as much as I can do it.
            
            I had over two-thirds of mine "zeed"...I just didn't have time to re-do them all, so I only kept what I thought I might have the best chance with, and tweeked them what I could.  I'm going to take the advice that was given to me, and set up a blog or website with the rest, since I've always read that it's better to not have all of your eggs in one basket anyway.    My husband is going to do the same, or we'll combine ours into one--we haven't decided yet.

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      2. 74

         Horatio Plotposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Tammy, I  know I've only been here 5 mins when compared to you, but why not just shorten your titles? They are ever so long and not very search friendly. I'm in month 5 of the AP and the value of a concise, search friendly title is emphasized from day 1.
         For instance, change "Make Your Own Christmas Stockings--Christmas Crafts for Kids That are Easy and Fun!" to, "Fun Christmas Craft Ideas For Kids."
         This will bring traffic, as the Hub is good.
         I bet all your "idle" Hubs have long unwieldy titles.
         Horatio

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         1. 82

            TamCorposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Horatio Plot--I thought that I was doing the right thing by having long titles, ugh.  I ran each hub through the Title Tuner, and added the words to each title that they recommended--was I wrong to do that?  I thought that, by covering a lot of keywords, that it would HELP in the search, not hinder...
            
            Thanks for your advice--I appreciate it.  I may have been here longer than you, but I admit to not knowing a LOT about how to be successful online..

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            1. 74

               Horatio Plotposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Try the learning center Tammy,
               http://hubpages.com/learningcenter/titl … or-traffic
               Google cuts off after 60 characters for search purposes. The title should be short, concise and should be something that a searcher would put into a search engine.
               You should use Google Keyword Tool to help:
               http://hubpages.com/learningcenter/google-keyword-tool
               Looking at your account my bet is that if you simply changed the titles then they would all awake fresh and bubbly and ready for the day ahead. It will only take you a few hours of AdWord research, tops.
               After all, when you think about it, who would search for;
               "Piddle Pad Seat Protector - Protect Baby's Car Seat or Stroller From Leaking Diapers- Potty-Training Accidents"
               Rather try, "Car Seat Protectors for Children".
               Stay - Change the titles - Awaken those Hubs - Get those views - Make that money.
               This is all HubPages is trying to do here, trying to make it better for all.
               Horatio
               x

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               1. 82

                  TamCorposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  I think that a lot of my confusion with titles comes from being a seller on eBay for many years before I came here.  It was drilled into my head there to put as many keywords into a title to draw in people searching for a specific item or descriptor.
                  
                  So when I see "should be something that a searcher would put into a search engine", I assumed that it meant putting in as many as I could, to draw in more people searching for specific keywords.
                  
                  As far as my title above, I see what you're saying, although leaving out the words "Piddle Pad" would be leaving out the name brand of the item.  So if someone searches for "Piddle Pad", instead of "Car Seat Protectors", then they would miss my hub, wouldn't they?
                  
                  I will check out the Google Keyword Tool again--thanks for the reminder.
                  
                  I do thank you for your advice, and will definitely check into re-doing some titles.

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                  1. 74

                     Horatio Plotposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     True.
                     How about, "Car Seat Piddle Pads for Children."

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      3. 90

         Greensleeves Hubsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         A lot of members seem to be taking this very seriously and understandably so, because for one's work to be made unavailable to the vast majority of potential readers without discussion, and based purely on traffic figures, seems very wrong. Your hubs (from the three or four I've just glanced at), look to have quality and attention to detail, even if they don't all have very many visitors. Not sure about the low income and whether anything can be done about that, but certainly you should be allowed to keep these hubs online and easily accessible by those with an interest in the subject matter covered. If the policy continues in its current form, I suspect a lot of good hubbers will consider withdrawing good hubs.
         
         My advice (which is not based on anything much other than intuition) is to hang in there at least for a few weeks. I suspect from the outpouring of concern, and from one or two things said by Paul Edmondson, Co-Founder and CEO, that the HubPages team may listen and address one or two of these concerns and hopefully modify the way in which any de-listing is carried out to ensure that quality hubs with good writing, presentation and useful information - even if they don't have much traffic - stay freely and easily available to all. Alun.

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         1. 82

            TamCorposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Greensleeves--Thank you for the kind words about my hubs--I needed that, lol!
            
            I am going to hang on for awhile, to see what happens, and will hope for the best.  I'm coming up on what is usually a very busy time for my best hub--we'll see if it still is this year, because I couldn't even find the darn thing on Google the other day...

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         2. 68

            Pearldiverposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            My Intuition told me that in all probability and historically, many Autocratic decision makers found great pockets of mumbling from the masses, on ALL occasions that it was decided Burning Books would improve the welfare of the subjects! 
            
            So... so many wasted words... such irony..... imagine which words would have been needed when the whole exercise was proven to have been greatly flawed! 

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8. 62

   prettydarkhorseposted 11 years ago

   This is fall/autumn cleaning (saturated topics, low views) in time for the rumored big G update soon aside from the monthly or from time to time updates

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9. 75

   carol7777posted 11 years ago

   I am just sort of confused.  I got a couple of marks on my hubs--just two new ones.  One of them is performing better than any of my other ones.  I have redone all hubs before this new venue.  Maybe that is why they are left alone.  I personally think the hubs deserve at least a month for performance.  However I am still pretty new here and just trying to write.  When going over old hubs (only 6 weeks old) i spent a lot of time fixing and changing on my own.  I think the first months are just about learning especially for me.  So I was happy to make changes and see some viewership increased.  After reading through all the comments here I do understand how everyone feels.  It is tough for the ambitious writer.

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10. 81

    Mark Ewbieposted 11 years ago

    I followed the advice from the algorithm which said my pages were a bit, how shall we say, lacking... and I deleted them.  When I reviewed them they were self indulgent bits of nonsense without decent keywording or indeed any of the 'tricks of the trade' that proper writers use.  In fact I am surprised that Google had not written to me personally explaining what a bad writer I was - and I should consider myself fortunate that I got any traffic at all, from anywhere.
    
    It was a while later, in the early hours of this morning while I was tossing and turning, unable to sleep for the excitement of what this masterstroke would achieve.  I rushed eagerly to my computer and after the obligatory fifteen minute wait while it woke up I checked my new shiny HubPages account.
    
    Imagine my surprise to see that traffic has thus far largely remained static.  I checked Quantcast to see if the site had now recovered from being sullied by my garbage and as yet nothing much has happened.
    
    However I have never been one to let facts get in the way, etc.  After studying SEO and the Tarot I have decided the Tarot is a much more reliable way to determine one's future.  I fetched the cards.  I laid them on the table while incanting "wtf I am doing" in a low mumble.
    
    The cards do not lie.  This change is the most exciting possiblity in the history of unlikely possibilities.  It is surely only a few hours before we will all reap unimaginable riches and will be celebrating wildly in the streets.
    
    I am so enthusiastic about this new Zzzz thing that I will gradually delete more pages - using the less is more theory.  I expect that when I have one page left Google will finally reward me with a visitor.  "Why don't you write more pages" he or she might comment, and I will be forced to write several hundred bad tempered and abusive words in response.
    
    I remain your obedient servant, etc.

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    1. 73

       Barbara Kayposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       Mark, You are too funny.

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    2. 77

       Shadesbreathposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       LOL

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    3. 68

       Rosie2010posted 11 years agoin reply to this

       Mark, you are hilarious!

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    4. 95

       Sue Adamsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       

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11. 66

    2uesdayposted 11 years ago

    My main concern is that hubs that fall into idle and then are reworked, may have by then been over taken by copies of it elsewhere on the internet. I think seasonal hubs maybe especially prone to this.

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12. 76

    Katharellaposted 11 years ago

    I already was going to fix some of my overall inconsistencies like spelling or grammar anyway when I noted the new symbols by some of my hubs!
    Some I was going to either delete or shorten as well.
    
    I do have one question;
    I have a couple of recipes that I already wanted to put into the new recipe capsules, but have realized that the url needs to be changed. So I guess my question is, do I make a whole new hub with a new url?
    
    Now that I have changed one, it has the circle, but it still needs a new url.
    
    (I made food for my dog which has since passed away so I was already going to change that)
    
    Thanks,
    Kathy

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    1. 74

       MickiSposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       Sorry about your dog. My dog, Kisha, just passed away last month. :-(

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13. 74

    LetitiaFTposted 11 years ago

    Boy am I glad I read:
    1.) the blog (http://blog.hubpages.com/2012/08/introducing-on-idle/ ); and
    2.) the learning center (http://hubpages.com/learningcenter/Feat … -Idle-Hubs )
    articles about this before reading the forum or I'd feel a lot more worried. As it is I don't. Of course I haven't been Zzzapped yet, but if and when I do I'll be curious to figure out why. It may turn out that HubPages is not the best platform for every type of writing. If there is writing on HubPages that I can only get readership for through social websites and friends for instance, I might as well blog it.
    Two things do concern me about it, however,
    1.) The grey area between quality and number of google hits, in narrow niches for instance,
    2.) The fact that some people here who are getting hits and high ratings on google are getting Zzzapped.

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14. 61

    paradigmsearchposted 11 years ago

    I'm going to be cannibalizing one of my Z'd hubs into 5 separate blog posts; one a day for 5 days, off and on. The hub has already been unpublished and de-indexed/url removed; and no stolen copies out there.  It was a zero traffic critter, so nothing to lose. In fact, for this particular hub, this might even have been the smart thing for me to do without the ZZZ impetus. More than one way to skin a platypus...

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15. 90

    Greensleeves Hubsposted 11 years ago

    HUBS ARE NO LONGER ACCESSIBLE THROUGH 'TOPICS'
    
    I hope this is not a consequence of the 'idle hubs' policy, but many hubs seem now to be inaccessible from the HubPages Topics list. I've recently been compiling a review of some of the best hubs in the 'folk music' category under 'Entertainment & Media - Music', so I know that just a week ago there were more than 200 hubs which could be brought up for review under this category. Yesterday (before the activation of the idle hubs policy), the number of hubs accessible under this topic has been reduced to 101.
    I know of four good (and in some cases very moving) hubs in particular by Tom Cornett, Zebulum, scrittobene and True Blue Wizard all of which have disappeared from the Topics Folk Music list. (I can give you the links if anyone wishes). Nobody - even HubPage members - will presumably be able to find these hubs now unless they happen to go to the authors' profile page.
    If this is the result of the idle hubs policy, then the Topics list is now rendered very incomplete and unsatisfactory for anyone with a specialist interest in a particular topic category. I hope this is not the case, and that this is just a technical glitch, but it has been said that de-listed hubs will only be accessible from the hubber's profile page, so it worries me that only the most 'popular' hubs may now be available through Topics. It may be an idea to check if your 'idle hubs' are no longer advertised even on the HubPages site, let alone on Google, by searching for them under the 'explore' heading at the top of the screen, and 'Topics' from the drop down menu.

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    1. 84

       Little two twoposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       Yes, when your hub goes into idle state it can only be found if directly searched for on hubpages (which if people were doing it would'nt be idle), a direct url found elsewhere or ones profile. It will NOT show up in Topics or discover more hubs.
       
       This to me is not supporting your idle hubs as you basically force people to go begging for clicks, spam other sites and make it impossible to find on ones own. Essentially they are removing it from not only google, but hubpages too.
       
       Hubpage staff mentioned this way back in the beginning

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          Greensleeves Hubsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Thanks Little two two. In that case that's a really ill-thought out policy isn't it? The hubs are effectively inaccessible, or 'dead', if people cannot even access them from HubPages. Nobody is going to go trawling through user profiles looking for hubs on - say - folk music, unless they happen to know that a particular member writes articles about folk music. The only way to bring such hubs back to life would be through lots of links or - as you put it - begging for clicks. Thanks for your reply. Alun.

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          1. 84

             Little two twoposted 11 years agoin reply to this

             No problem .... its on page 8 a staffer named MIckieS mentioned the not being seen on more hubs spot and page 10 Paul said the topic pages wont show it as it is being updated. Whether he meant the topics are being updated to include these idle articles, or that they are not included in topics because the idle article is considered being updated ... I am not sure.
             
             Sorry I have no idea how to do those fancy quotes from other peoples answers.

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    2. 73

       WriteAngledposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       Interesting!
       
       I picked one of the authors you list and scrolled through this person's hubs to find the one, to which I think you refer.
       
       Indeed, that hub does not feature in the 101 hubs listed despite the author having assigned it to the folk music category.
       
       16 of the 101 hubs selected for listing have a lower score than the hub I investigated, which has been denied a listing!

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       1. 90

          Greensleeves Hubsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          That's good of you WriteAngled to take the trouble to check one of those hubs out, even though I hadn't provided full links. Interesting how lower scoring hubs were favoured over it - an indication presumably that trafiic figures are now deemed more important than hubscores in this regard. Thanks.

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16. 82

    moonlakeposted 11 years ago

    I put a hub up yesterday and right away it had z's now it has that little round thing. I don't know what the round thing means. We should at least be given time before the z's come on.

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    1. 62

       prettydarkhorseposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       Maybe it is pending, look for the symbol and its meaning way down below your stat accounts page

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          paradigmsearchposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          I call it, "The Little Whirly Thing".

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             CASE1WORKERposted 11 years agoin reply to this

             I had the little whirly thing against one I updated yesterday- now it is being given another chance to shine- ony another 25 to go!!

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          moonlakeposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Thank you.

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       paradigmsearchposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       You are Pending S/E indexing permission for 24 hours while the HP algo mulls things over...

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    TamCorposted 11 years ago

    Greensleeves--What hub by Tom Cornett are you talking about?  I can go check his account and see what its status is(he's my husband).

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       Greensleeves Hubsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       Tamcor;
       The hub I'm refering to is 'Gone Fishing with old Uncle Bob'. I took a note of the link to the hub because I felt I might include it in my shortly to be published review of folk music hubs as I liked both the story behind it and the song. However, bringing up Topics - Entertainment & Media - Music - Folk Music, the hub is no longer listed, even though it is still included in this category in the description at the top of the hub.

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          TamCorposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Okay--I checked it out, and it's one that HP has ZZZ'd...weren't these still supposed to be accessible to hubbers? 
          
          I can ask him to try to do something with it, if you're interested, but I can't believe you can't find it now--that is NOT what I understood them to mean about the idle business...

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             Jenn-Anneposted 11 years agoin reply to this

             That's what I thought I understood - that Zzzed hubs would still show up if searched for on Hubpages (just not on outside search engines).  I guess not?  Interestingly, one of my hubs that was slated to be Zzzed got a sudden burst of google traffic yesterday and was apparently removed from the Zzz list, without me editing or altering it in any way.

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             Greensleeves Hubsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

             It seems not Tamcor. 'Idle' hubs, it seems, will only be accessible through the profiles.
             
             It's OK with me TamCor, because I'd already saved the link within my currently unpublished review, so I can access the hub again . I'll probably be in touch in the next few days via the comments section on the hub to let you know if I'd like to promote the hub in my review, which will probably then be published in the next 10 days or so.
             
             It's really annoying tho' - 'Gone Fishing with Old Uncle Bob' contains a nice reminiscence, and a beautiful song linked to it, but hubbers or google searchers won't be able to find it now, unless they visit your husband's profile or happen across a review such as mine. If I'd started compiling this review a couple of weeks later than I did, I wouldn't have found it either, and I would never have read the words or listened to the song. I hope when I publish my review, I can include this hub in it, and maybe send a few more visits to the hub - whether it would be enough to take it out of the Zzz categorization, I don't know.

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                TamCorposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                I'll pass this onto him, so he will know...   I love that story, too, and it's only one of many that he's written like that, and a lot of them have songs to accompany them that he wrote and recorded himself.  It's sad that they can't even be accessed from Google now.  Of his 160 hubs, over 100 have been put in the idle mode...
                
                He, like many others on here, does not have the time to come back and tweek that many hubs--especially in the short amount of time he was given in the beginning.  The loss of his hubs makes me even more upset than my own--he has so many wonderful stories, and the special comments to go along with them.

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                   SmartAndFunposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                   Such a shame. I feel your pain. I don't write great, original hubs like that but I sure wish I did.  Even tough the subjects are apparently not often searched for, it's a shame that on the occasion that they are, no one will find them.

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                      TamCorposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                      Thank you, SmartAndFun. I wish that I could, too, but I tend to stick with how-to's, informational, and product hubs for the most part. 
                      
                      It's funny--he writes on two other sites based in England called ABC Tales, and Short Stories(I believe), and he gets thousands and thousands of hits on the stuff he writes for those sites.  Kind of makes you wonder why that doesn't happen here, doesn't it?

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                         Marcy Goodfleischposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                         TamCor - I'm sorry for the dilemma the Idle Hubs creates for your husband's account. I think I've read some of his work. Maybe the traffic in England is a result of readers going to those sites specifically to read fiction, essays, short-stories, etc?  The names of the sites suggest the content focus is different from here.
                         
                         I can see where it would be difficult to get a following of fiction readers on HP because the site isn't advertized that way, and there are few ways for readers looking for a good short story or essay to suddenly stumble on a writer here through Internet searches.
                         
                         Maybe somewhere there's a way for writers who focus on poems, humor, essays and fiction to attract traffic. There are some beautiful pieces on HP, and it's clear the site values the quality of that writing.  I've written a few of those as well, and I am not sure what to do about them.  I agree with the Idle Hub approach of de-indexing anything that can reduce our rankings as Hubbers or as a site. 
                         
                         If anything is to blame, it's probably Google, for driving decisions like this. That's not a criticism of HP and its decision - it's just a fact of life of the effects of trying to keep a site competitive when it relies on search engine hits to survive.

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                            Alternative Primeposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                            Totally incorrect Marcy -
                            
                            First of all, if you agree with this policy I would have to assume the time and effort invested on your part to create a hub is probably negligible -
                            
                            Moreover, where is the proof "Idle" hubs were threatening the well being of the entire site? If that were true, why were they not "De-Listed" by search? Unfortunately, your theory makes absolutely no sense -
                            
                            This entire "De-Listing" exercise is based upon a fatally flawed concept which attempts to link "Views" with "Quality" as a major component - Any rational person understands this to be fiction - There was another attempt in the past by a member to do the same with "Shares" & "Quality" which is another absurd thought -
                            
                            Others have previously mentioned additional flaws in this insanely audacious policy including "niche", "seasonal", "infrequently searched" etc -
                            
                            The hard facts dictate true "Quality Hubs" will be unilaterally "Put to Sleep" for reasons which have absolutely nothing to do with actual "Quality" aspects, and on the flip side, a fluffy "Banana Cream Pie" recipe which took someone about 4 minutes to copy and paste to a Hub, hardy a monumentally Earth shattering contribution, one which has virtually zero creative value, will not be threatened and continue to float unimpeded merely because 10,000 Americans daily feel the need to toss back a few slices in a desperate attempt to emulate that epitome of physical health "Chris Christy" -
                            
                            I've worked way too long and hard to get my work "Listed", and now, they will be subjected to random manipulation by a non-interested third party - It's ridiculous -

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                               janderson99posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                               "Moreover, where is the proof "Idle" hubs were threatening the well being of the entire site?
                               See Matt Cutts -Google quoted all over the place
                               "Low quality content on one part of a site can affect the rankings of other pages, so regardless of however small or big your site might be - it is high time you get rid off the junk pages and focus on creating valuable content."  http://www.     webbroi.com/blog/google-penguin-update-explained.html

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                                  thisisoliposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                  That's true, but Hubpages quality guidelines don't always mesh with Google quality guidelines.
                                  
                                  For instance to comply with a Hubpages quality metric I had to remove my product comparisons on numerous hubs. Not doing so would have been more work than I could handle.
                                  
                                  Product comparisons are a verified Google quality metric.
                                  
                                  Hubpages own quality metrics lowered my hubs quality in they eyes of Google. 
                                  
                                  Now they are using traffic as a quality factor, just so you know traffic in itself is a small, if existing google quality metric.
                                  
                                  Existing Google quality metrics including basics such as page age and originality (De-indexing a page leads to the possibility of an illegal duplication becoming seen as the verified source) not to mention basic indexing are at risk here just so we can maintain a Hubpages standard.
                                  
                                  This seems like yet another misguided change, and while it is based on good intentions, it is using an awful metric to implement an automated solution.

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                                     janderson99posted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                     If there's no traffic - there's no point. If you grow apples and want a shop to put them on their shelves to sell them and no one buys them, there's no point. There's something wrong will your apples or too many people are selling better apples - there's no point. Traffic is the ultimate metric of what matters (seo, wow factor, user response, niche keywords, etc.). If it has traffic there is a potential for the traffic to grow. If there is no traffic there's no point. HP is a business why should it feature and promote 'dead horses'

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                                        thisisoliposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                        One lead to a lawyer can be worth $50,000.  It's not all about traffic.  Plenty of webmasters deal on low traffic high quality pages.
                                        
                                        Also, a high quality but out of date Hub still has intrinsic value that adds quality to the domain, even though it may not receive traffic.

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                                           jacharlessposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                           Nicely stated Soli.

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                                     Will Apseposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                     This is nonsense: 'Also, a high quality but out of date Hub still has intrinsic value that adds quality to the domain, even though it may not receive traffic.'
                                     
                                     That is just sentiment. Sentimental attachment to dead-in-the-water pages is the first thing to clear out of your mind.
                                     
                                     If you have content that Google has rejected as not fit to serve to its users that content is a liability.

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                                        sunforgedposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                        It is not nonsense
                                        
                                        
                                        
                                        Obscurity, Front Running, Extreme Specialization, Micro niches do not equal low quality.
                                        
                                        Low traffic does not equal penalization.
                                        
                                        There is zero correlation.
                                        
                                        Your view is very narrow there, you are missing a great many scenarios some which are very,very profitable .
                                        
                                        Low traffic can simply mean low search interest and sometimes that is intentional.
                                        
                                        I know at one point you enjoyed writing about obvious commercial topics (As some mirrored my own) .. if your (hypothetical) Top Ten iPad Stylus Review hub tanked post-panda you can maybe assume it has some characteristics that could be holding your sub down.
                                        
                                        But if you enjoyed reviewing your new  $20,000 "HELICOPTER RESCUE HOIST" (22 Exact Searches a Month)
                                        
                                        You only really need one bite to make it a worthwhile commercial endeavor (Quality assumed - bet that would be a hell of review to try to fluff!)
                                        
                                        Oli is very well versed in practical and theoretical SEO - you would be better served taking notes or asking for further explanation if you don't understand. In the years here I haven't noticed much nonsense or sentiment as part of his posting style.
                                        
                                        I'm not one to assume your background but I don't think it involves having the opportunity to test statements such as you just made? I mean you just cut out a Hub from a server someone else manages with a rather small element of control to overall organization. Correct me if Im wrong - but you just read this stuff on forums and SEO news sites and repeat here as fact ..right?

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                                           Will Apseposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                           Oli also got hit by Panda on his account. Which he might not have done if he had dumped his under-performers or upgraded them.
                                           
                                           Some pages might be dead in the water because there are plenty of better pages on the same subject or sitting on higher authority sites, but unless you can be sure that this is the case, you might as well let them go.
                                           
                                           If you get no visitors to a page what is the point of keeping it anyway? On Hubpages there is none.

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                                              thisisoliposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                              To clarify, I got hit by Panda on Hubpages and recovered - then had to make a ton of changes to fit in with Hubpages quality controls, and then dropped more permanently. These changes forced me to do things against the Google website reviewer quality guidelines.
                                              
                                              Take this argument to my own sites, where all but a couple of which have remained at the very least steady, and for the most part have grown.
                                              
                                              I have not been able to control the methods used by Hubpages, and advised against them on many occasions, which is why I have moved my efforts near totally to my own domains.
                                              
                                              Likewise, I am recommending against this now, because de-indexing pages based for the most part on traffic means that otherwise profitable hubs may be completely ruined even if only temporarily de-indexed.
                                              
                                              The best move I have seen Hubpages make in a long time is the Apprentice program where they have made a real effort to get writers producing higher quality content. 
                                              
                                              Want to improve quality on Hubpages, start at the source, create a more vigorous sign up process to weed out those people who are more likely to submit bad content. This might be as simple as having a mandatory 'introduce yourself' box.
                                              
                                              Removing low quality pages IS a good thing, but the method being employed here is not simple unreliable, but destined to lose me even more money by destroying the value of my subdomain by de-indexing otherwise quality content.

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                                                 Will Apseposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                                 Are you sure you have got over Panda? I just looked at your top (hot) pages and after a dozen or so only found one coming up without the obvious signs of a Panda hit.

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                                                    thisisoliposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                                    Yes, as mentioned, the changes hubpages made me take took me against their website review guidelines, this is not Panda - this is core Google ranking quality factors and spam detection that I was thrown in front of.

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                                                       Will Apseposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                                       I honestly think you should reappraise the Panda situation. The top ten percent or so of pages in an affected account will continue to get traffic and they will see fluctuations in visitor numbers. Are you sure that this isn't what you are looking at?
                                                       
                                                       I just looked at another ten of your pages (the 'best' this time). They all show signs of being hit by Panda.
                                                       
                                                       Search for chunks of text from the pages or longer, unique page titles to see if the pages are Panda affected.
                                                       
                                                       It is much easier to find rip off copies of your pages in Google than your originals.

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                                                          thisisoliposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                                          They show signs of being hit by Google, not necessarily Panda, out of interest how are you getting to your conclusion on my traffic? 
                                                          
                                                          My traffic dropped a few days after I made changes, not in line with a Panda update.

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                                                       Will Apseposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                                       I missed this before.
                                                       
                                                       Try these searches. Just copy and paste into Google search. Your pages are nowhere to be seen. My pages come up as expected. That is the difference between a Panda hit account and an account that has not been hit.
                                                       
                                                       The opening lines from 3 pages in your 'best' list:
                                                       
                                                       The top 10 notebook coolers guide will introduce you to ten of the best notebook coolers the world has ever seen. These fantastic top 10 notebook coolers
                                                       
                                                       The Google Chrome browser has long been my favorite browser, it is simple, quick and easy to use. Despite this I sill found
                                                       
                                                       The DSi XL has been out for a few months now, and it really has proven immensely popular. This has caused a lot of people
                                                       
                                                       The opening lines from my worst 3 performing pages:
                                                       
                                                       The strange humming sound as you walk down a deserted street. The lights in the sky that keep pace with you even as you quicken your pace.
                                                       
                                                       Anecdotal evidence is evidence that comes from individual experience. For example if I have had a good experience
                                                       
                                                       The flowering shrubs and bushes on this page are the most popular in the US with good reason. They are not only beautiful, they are versatile and easy to grow.

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                                        thisisoliposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                        Lack of user interest does not indicate lack of Google interest.
                                        
                                        Imagine if you had a 'Tron' fansite before the remake was made.  I can pretty much guarantee you would see very little traffic for a long time. But as soon as the remake is launched - you are made.
                                        
                                        Likewise there are topics which generate very little interest from searchers, but are highly relevant to those who do find it.
                                        
                                        Even if out of date content doesn't get resurrected, it can still retain quality values based on backlink profiles, social trust etc.

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                                  Marisa Wrightposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                  Agreed, but idle Hubs are not necessarily low quality Hubs.
                                  
                                  I have several idle Hubs.  They are not low quality - they're written the same way as my other content.  They're just not getting traffic, because they're not on popular topics. 
                                  
                                  If the "idle" penalty was hitting "low quality" Hubs, I would have no objection to it, because it would be doing a worthwhile job.

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    geetarjimposted 11 years ago

    What is the logic in putting a no-index tag on pages that aren't getting enough traffic?  With Google as my main driver of traffic, I'm hardly going to be able to drive more traffic to those hubs if they aren't even indexed anymore.  There's also not a lot of point building links to hubs that aren't even indexed.

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19. 0

    Arlene V. Pomaposted 11 years ago

    The one Hub that I needed to "fix" has earned its green dot.  On with my life . . .

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20. 61

    paradigmsearchposted 11 years ago

    WELCOME TO THE NEW HUBBER START-OF-DAY NORM!
    
    Here is how each new Hubber day or session now starts for everyone.
    
    Step One: Proceed to account stats page.
    
    Step Two: Click the Idle Status column header twice.
    
    Step Three: Laugh or cry accordingly.

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       paradigmsearchposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       I posted this because I just got a new ZZZ...

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    Shelly McRaeposted 11 years ago

    I just unpublished my sleeper hubs. I do not intend to re-publish the sleepers here on Hubpages, so I assume a visitor clicking on an unpublished title on my profile will be disappointed to find the article inaccessible. When does my profile page update to reflect only those hubs that are now published?

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22. 81

    Mark Ewbieposted 11 years ago

    I edited a few hubs yesterday that I wasn't quite ready to delete.  Most of the editing consisted of things like a minor title change or the odd word altered - in one case moving a picture up slightly.  I changed one or two picture captions as well.
    
    This was apparently sufficient for the algorithm to decide that - although yesterday my pages were of such poor quality they served no purpose to the search audience - with the changed positioning of the picture, etc. they are now the best damn things available through orgasmic search.
    
    From feeling slighty fed up and lost I am now delighted with myself.  I can only marvel at the complexity of the quality control software and give thanks that whoever wrote it will not be attempting something more challenging like setting the washing machine to do a thirty minute wash on Eco mode.

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       paradigmsearchposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       
       
       It never occurred to me to try orgasmic picture positioning. Thanks, I'll give it a try.

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       mistyhorizon2003posted 11 years agoin reply to this

       Absolutely hysterical comment Mark

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       Greensleeves Hubsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       That one made me laugh Mark.
       Maybe that's what everyone has to do. Visit the hub and move a photo up. Then visit the hub again, and move it back down. That's two changes, and maybe do that a few more times and the Zzzs will go. Maybe if we underline an important sentence on one visit, then bold type it on the next, then put it into italics on the next - that's three more changes. Then on the next visit, get rid of the underlining, the bold typing, and the italics. Soon we'll all have hubs which score 100 with innumerable visits. Then everyone will be happy.

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          janderson99posted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Shhhh please keep this a secret as the algo may be listening and does not like to be insulted. Game in secret please!

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          EmpressFelicityposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Do all these visits count as traffic for stats purposes? If so, perhaps the advertisers will see the resulting jump in page views and assume that it means more potential revenue for them. I'm sure they'd be most PO'd to learn that that the extra traffic was simply down to HP's own users trying to jump through a series of invisible hoops.

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             Greensleeves Hubsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

             EmpressFelicity; I suspect you may well be right - it's not really a suggestion I would seriously recommend. But it does illustrate the slightly farcical nature of the situation whereby a lot of visits, updates and tweaks appear to be more important than a lot of quality. It's not the way round it should be. Quality should be more important than visits and tweaks to the hub. Alun.

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    4. 79

       Becky Katzposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       I changed a few words in the title on three of them and went off to think about what else I should do, they are no longer zz'd. I also changed a picture on another and it is clear. I have one that I was thinking on what to do with it, it has 11 views in the last two days and is still on idle. Doesn't that number of views take it off idle? With that number of views, maybe it should stay on idle.

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23. 82

    snakeslaneposted 11 years ago

    My reply to Mark, Alun 'funnies'  got bumped by poor editing, you guys are hilarious

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24. 79

    Becky Katzposted 11 years ago

    I hate to say this, but I have 11 views in the last two days on a zz'd hub. Wouldn't that take it off being zz'd.

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25. 58

    Alternative Primeposted 11 years ago

    Still waiting patiently for a response from Paul E -

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26. 75

    carol7777posted 11 years ago

    When I publish a new hub it goes on idle..Two have been removed and one is left.  I think there is a certain merit here as we are cleanin up old hubs and making corrections.

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    Greensleeves Hubsposted 11 years ago

    LOSING THE ABILITY TO ACCESS THE HUBS IN A TOPIC CATEGORY
    
    A few months ago I started writing some HubPage review hubs in which I selected topics on HubPages, looked at every single hub within those topics, and chose 10 favourites to promote, based on quality of writing, quality of presentation, originality,  information contained and other factors. So far I've published three of these on the topics of 'Native American hubs', 'Italian Cuisine' and 'Dinosaurs and Palaeontology'. (All can be accessed from my profile). These three reviews have been intended among other things to breathe new life into some older hubs which are deserving of more support, by encouraging members to take a look at them - the idea behind this has seemed popular and has I think done some good - hopefully a lot more good than the opposite approach of branding the hubs as idle and hiding them from view.
    
    I repeat I have looked at ALL hubs in the topic categories under review, but now for the latest review hub on 'Folk Music', I find that half the hubs in this category have become hidden from view, and I have no way of accessing them to see if they are good quality hubs. In other words, if after 'Folk Music' I continue writing these reviews, I will not be able to give a valid assessment of the topic categories because I'll only be able to compare a fraction of the total hubs in each category. I won't be able to recommend some of the best hubs because I won't be able to find them on Hubpages!
    
    It makes me feel that after publishing this latest review, which I'll probably do in the next week or so, I'll have to end this series, because many of the best - yes BEST - hubs on Hubpages are now excluded from view.
    
    That must be wrong, and I wish and hope Hubpages would look at this again. In defending the 'idle hubs' policy, proponents talk about the need to 'update' 'underperforming' hubs, to improve 'quality', but this 'idle hub' policy as it is currently configured, does one thing only, and that is to penalise hubs of limited popular appeal - NOT hubs of low quality.

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28. 0

    Marye Audetposted 11 years ago

    If this was answered I'm sorry... end of month deadlines and I am skimming.... Is there a way to make exceptions for seasonal stuff? I have noticed that some of my Thanksgiving and Christmas hubs are zzZzzzzz -ing but I don't want them de indexed! They always perk up mid september. Seems that seasonal subjects should be exempt since the traffic pattern is different on them.

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29. 79

    Uninvited Writerposted 11 years ago

    I have a hub about Banned Book Week that has been idled. It tends to start getting traffic towards the end of September when the week takes place.

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    1. 94

       SmartAndFunposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       It's kind of odd to see which hubs are idled and which aren't. I have three that are idled; all are recipes that don't get much traffic, so I'm ok with that. But it's weird that they are not my least visited hubs. One of my least visitied hubs is a seasonal hub that I wrote after  the holiday with next year in mind. It has hardly gotten any views at all but it is not idled.

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    securityproducts3posted 11 years ago

    Hubpages is just struggling so hard these days. smh

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31. 0

    writeronlineposted 11 years ago

    This is all about trying to appease the God Google, and having failed to do so in spite of many 'conversations' with the big guys at the big G, HP's clearly now  in survival mode.
    
    Like any business in trouble and directionless, that calls for a new mantra:
    
    "Evergreen is seldom seen.
    Our pages must be fresh and clean.
    No room for aged, no room for proven.
    That's how we keep this baby movin."
    
    Of course, that may turn out to be a suitable epitaph..

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       jacharlessposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       Awesome Poem! Am tweeting this...

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    angela_michelleposted 11 years ago

    I really like this new feature. I have to admit, I agreed with every zzz-ed item that I had. They are ones I actually tried to revamp, but not sure what to do. This gets me moving more seriously on these hubs.

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33. 93

    Anurag2008posted 11 years ago

    It's been over 24 hours since I published a new hub. Still shows the pending status

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34. 82

    snakeslaneposted 11 years ago

    "Yes, it does come across that way, although I don't really think it is the message they want to give.  I think the word 'marketing' is key to the feeling of not being valued.  I don't think it is so much that it is not valued, but that usually creative writing online doesn't attract much traffic, and therefore earnings through Google searches.  Because of that I don't think it will make much difference to them whether they are indexed or not.  Therefore logically people who write creating content can keep writing as they did before, and they will not really be affected by the change."
    
    Thanks aalite,
    
    If you've been following this thread you will see some very concerned Hub Pages writers who have been affected by having their work de-indexed. Pages that are de-indexed have apparantly been removed from the 'topics' listings, and can no longer be found using Hub Pages 'search'.  Which leaves these pages invisible. This is how I understand it.

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       aa liteposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       Yes, I have just seen that, that aspect was omitted from the original announcement.  I think a solution might be to make a special category for creative writing, and give it special treatment so they can still be found within HubPages.  The topic as it is now, can also include informational writing as well as original stories and poems, so it is too general.  One problem that I foresee is that people try to pass off other types of hubs as 'creative' to get the special treatment.

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          snakeslaneposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Hi aa lite, It's not just creative writing that is getting hit. The Hubs fall right across the board: Books and Literature yes, (which would include fiction and poetry) but also Art, Music, Photography, Seasonal. So basically Hub Pages has invited all these 'writers' in, and now their work is to blame for bringing down the site?

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             aa liteposted 11 years agoin reply to this

             Yes I know, I have a few hubs myself, a couple of book reviews, and a really seasonal hub about Wimbledon tennis, that I am worried about.  They haven't been Zzeed yet, but I admit it is a worry.  However, they are still indexed, and they really receive very little traffic, so I don't think the rules are as draconian as this forum makes them sound.  I don't think you need to be a hugely successful commercial writer who makes the site a huge amount of money to have 'featured' hubs.
             
             The problem is that hubpages doesn't personally 'invite' writers in, it doesn't vet anybody before allowing them to publish.  It just gives a platform for people to write on, some of the people who come to write really publish terrible stuff, which I find whenever I go hub hopping.  I am talking about the obviously spun content that has been through a computer program hundreds of times etc.  I believe it is because of this that the site was hit by Google Panda so badly last year.  I'm pretty sure that kind of thing will be de-indexed and that might help the site get more traffic. If I lose some hubs that were bringing in no views anyway, but get more views on my more successful hubs, then I am not unhappy with that solution.
             
             Incidentally Paul E. has been dropping some really heavy hints about 'updating'.  I do wonder whether some of this isn't down to a rather dishonest attempt to make us all constantly update our stuff, the way Squidoo now does, in the belief that this is what Google requires.  My hubs are all under 6 months old, so perhaps this is why more of them haven't been Zzeed?

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                paradigmsearchposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                So that's why I updated 12 hubs today...

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                   paradigmsearchposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                   And self-ZZZ'd 3 others because they were beyond hope.

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    agilitymachposted 11 years ago

    I'm new to the HubPages community, so keep that in mind as I add to the discussion.
    
    When "hopping hubs," I am amazed at the number of poorly written, poorly laid-out hubs. Only about 10 percent of the hubs I've seen are decent. The rest are just flat lousy.
    
    The issue is, we all are very sensitive about our work, and we have our egos tied up with our hubs.  We all feel our writing is great, but with what I've seen on the hub hopper, only about 10 percent of us are putting out decent hubs.
    
    I can see how this would affect Google's love for any HubPages author then.  If 90 percent of the hubs lack information and/or quality, then Google would be stupid to highly rate HubPages' hubs.  Google users would quickly leave for search engines that provide more fertile searches.
    
    So I get the issue.  All that being said, though, I have read some really top notch creative writing hubs that probably will get zero traffic.  I have several up myself, although none of my hubs got zzzzs.  I think providing a way for these hubs to be deindexed through Google and yet available to anyone searching on HupPages is a good idea.  I agree kinks would have to be worked out, but it would keep those great "creative writing" hubs up and available for reading.
    
    But so far, I have no problems with idling hubs.  I may change my mind as I "age" into HubPages, but attempting to increase quality can only benefit all HubPage users.

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       aa liteposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       Hi agilitymach,
       
       I completely agree with you about the low quality hubs I find on HubHopper, and I think they really hurt the site's ranking last year when Google introduced its 'quality algorithm' affectionately known as Panda.  The first solution that was tried was to introduce subdomains for hubbers, this was supposed to isolate all the bad stuff away from the good, and it has worked to some extent but possibly not completely.  The reason the 'idle hubs' feature has been introduced is to 'get rid off' of this low quality stuff, and it will probably work.
       
       The problem, however, is that a number of good hubs fell victim to the sleeping potion as well.  I think that is to be expected, you will never get a computer algorithm dealing with over a million articles to work perfectly.  Naturally the people who were affected are upset.  I imagine there will be a lot of tweaking of the ZzZ algorithm in the coming months.
       
       Incidentally, I hope that you are flagging the really bad hubs that you find on the hopper.

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    snakeslaneposted 11 years ago

    Hi agilitymach, We are not talking about poor quality Hubs here. We are talking about high quality Hubs with low traffic.

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    sunforgedposted 11 years ago

    I just showed you an example.

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       Will Apseposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       I didn't think you were being serious about the helicopter hoist. lol.
       
       I mean should quality controls be abandoned because somebody on Hubpages might have pitched for 'Helicopter Hoist' and this has upset this particular gambit?

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          sunforgedposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Just showing an example that took 12 seconds to discover and share. I could do that all day.
          
          If a hub existed on that topic - regardless of its quality, we will assume it is very high - it still would never see tons of traffic or much of any.
          
          But, it could show up in #1 for the term until the day the right person came along and be massively profitable (certainly worth the effort to produce)
          
          Nothing about its low level of traffic would be a signal of low quality/dead weight to google.
          
          I was answering:
          
          this
          
          "If you get no visitors to a page what is the point of keeping it anyway? On Hubpages there is none."
          
          and this
          
          "That is just sentiment. Sentimental attachment to dead-in-the-water pages is the first thing to clear out of your mind."
          
          
          Purely academic of course - I really just don't think most know what they are cheering for here.
          
          Some of this may seem obscure - but I'm sure there a good gaggle of hubbers that have that hub about engagement rings for valentines day, diamond this or that - some are likely well researched and presented, the smart ones will target very narrow terms. It is a loss to be deindexed and I expect people will notice later .. or not.
          
          It will go a long way towards cutting out spam profiles and abandoned (intentionally) low quality hubs - it has merits in its final effect.
          
          I'm just pointing out that low traffic can very much be high value and its a huge mistake to think traffic equals quality to humans or search engines.
          
          Whats done is done

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             Will Apseposted 11 years agoin reply to this

             Good heavens, you must be the the only man who makes a living on ten visitors a month to your most profitable pages.
             
             Anyway, I have just survived a vile tropical disease and I am off to celebrate. I will do my best to eat a whole crispy duck in plum sauce. I might try and help my wife with a sea bream and some giant prawns in tamarind sauce (if she goes for her favorite menu).
             
             And I won't give thought to the suffering masses.

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          Marisa Wrightposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Will, you still have not explained what "quality" has to do with the idle feature.   "Quality" is not the same as "search engine friendly".  There is no evidence whatsoever that low-traffic posts cause damage to a website.  Low quality posts (short, or keyword-stuffed, or spam) will.  They are two different things.

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             Will Apseposted 11 years agoin reply to this

             I think the staff have made it absolutely clear that a major element of this update is about ensuring that the standard of hubs in related and topic sections is improved. So sandboxed pages are not going to be featured, pages that no wants to read are not going to be featured. Because they don't get traffic.
             
             You just have to accept that the traffic Google sends a page is a major signal (probably the most important) that Google can offer you about how it assesses a page.
             
             The only other measure you might want to look at is view duration. Great view duration and lousy traffic? Maybe keep it as a page that deserves a wider audience but has been sadly overlooked (perhaps because of poor titling).
             
             If you cannot (or don't want to) craft a page that search engines are interested in why should you care if it is indexed or not?

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    The Writers Dogposted 11 years ago

    Further proof (as if it was needed) of the epic fail that is this brain freeze, er, brain wave by "the powers that be".
    
    I have one Hub with 7 page views in the last 7 days, and one with 6 page views in the last 7 days days.
    
    One has been idled, one has not. Guess which one is active... that is right. The one with the lower number of page views.

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    sunforgedposted 11 years ago

    Shouldn't even use the carefully selected doublespeak.
    
    Your article was de-indexed due to the willful use of a no-index tag.
    
    It isn't Idle, its just dead and gone now.

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    Marisa Wrightposted 11 years ago

    Greekgeek has written a good Hub on the idle Hub feature.  She makes an excellent point.
    
    Squidoo has a similar feature, but there's one important difference.
    
    If a lens (Hub equivalent) is idled, it is not deindexed.   
    
    Seems to me that HubPages has taken a good idea one step too far.
    http://greekgeek.hubpages.com/hub/what- … tatus-mean

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       PaulGoodman67posted 11 years agoin reply to this

       I'm with GreekGeek and HubPages: I think the (calculated) risk is worth taking.  If it needs any changes further down the line, HP can do that (there will defintiely need to be lots of tweaking, of course).  But the move is in the right direction.  Otherwise, HP will continue its slow death. 
       
       With a big site like HP, any system to control things like quality has to be automated and it is therefore a blunt instrument to some degree (we see this with sophisticated systems like the Google algo too), hopefully HP can minimize these types of issue.

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          PaulGoodman67posted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Great hub by GG, by the way, she explains the change in straightforward language.  Hopefully it will be read by some of the people who are arguing that the Zzzzs should be  optional.  It is all or nothing, you can't have people opting out, or it won't work.

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             Ethan Greenposted 11 years agoin reply to this

             I agree!

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          Marisa Wrightposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          But why take that extra step and de-index?  Why not do it without the no-index, as Greekgeek suggests?

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             jacharlessposted 11 years agoin reply to this

             De-indexing, in my experience, is an excellent way to clean out the closet, so to speak. It allows the spider to remove old links, old content/cached images, 301/304 and even 404 errors. Second, if the content is deemed "low quality" between crawls, the SERP plunges downward very quickly. Many sites have a One Day setting on revisit, which could cause havoc for other items. By de-indexing, it also pulls the article out of keyword competition, for a moment, like a car making a NASCAR pit stop. The article has a chance to refuel, kick the tires, get a new thumbs up and back in the race.
             
             Metaphorically, existing articles that become idle, on the Search Engine tracker, can get crushed by other whizzing racers or cause a 50 article pile up, which is a clog. This clog can result in the entire sub.domain or parent.domain itself being dropped. So, by pulling the article off the road, for a bit, keeps the other articles of that sub.domain, all other sub.domains and the parent.domain moving along {in theory}.
             
             With a fresh set of tires, updated text, photos, videos, links the article also gets fresh update credit (timestamps updated), better taxonomy {category} positioning and often a better crawl. It takes a lot of pressure off the keyword-only competition and moves the content to the forefront. {Engines have recently changed their history functions to push newer dates to the forefront, especially with increased social sharing & searches through Bing, FacePlant, Stumble and Twitter.
             
             The only thing I dislike is the internal removal from the Hub Taxonomy {breadcrumbs}, Search-able Tags {Folksonomy} and Topic Display itself. This should be kept, especially if the Hub does well with internal views. But, it appears Hub Taxonomy has changed also, condensing or removing certain categories & sub-categories, while expanding others.
             
             James.

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                ateinposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                I am not an SEO expert . But  isn't Fresh content argument a bit overrated ? The Google results rarely come up with a bunch of recent articles . You will notice that, for most of the search phrases, only 2-3 articles on the first page of Google results belong to the current year or month (2012 in this case).Rest of the articles are a blast from the past,going back as far as 2007 (there was an article written in 2000 on the first page). There are articles written on the particular search topic in previous month or previous year , yet these recently written articles fail to make it to the first page of Google results unless you use the "Past month" or "past year" link.
                
                The only problem that I have with this "algo"  is deindexing of new hubs . New hubs should be deindexed only after a decent threshold of time (6 months or a year ?). As I have said earlier, Every new hub should be given more than enough time to generate its search Engine traffic.
                It is a good thing to remove trafficless old hubs . I hope they start with hubs that are really old and have not seen much traffic in recent times.

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    MarleneBothaposted 11 years ago

    I don't have an Adsense account as yet so I may not understand it quite too well at the moment, but I would like some clarity on this... If you edit your hub, it gets a pending status, right? Does that mean that while it's pending it is not on Google anymore? Also, when your hub got Zzz'ed I understand that it doesn't show on Google until you've updated it. So once it's updated and featured, does your hub lose it's position in the search engine?

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    Ethan Greenposted 11 years ago

    My tuppence worth is that I just about fully support Hubpages for trying to do this. I had a major operation one month ago, and have been off work since. During this time I've done a lot of research into the Google algorithm changes that have hit Hubpages and the rest of the web in mysterious ways. From my personal research and understanding, what Hubpages is trying to do is very important in preventing even more unpleasant spankings from Google over the coming months as they expand and tweak their changes. I think if Hubpages didn't take some dramatic action like this in response to the information we do have about what Google is telling everyone, and just sits back and hopes things improve, then there is the potential for even more catastrophic collapses in viewings. The poetry and creative writing folk are certainly in the potential line of fire of collateral damage, and I do feel for them. But as Greekgeek points out in her hub, linked by Marissa 2 comments below this one, most of their viewings tends to be from social sources rather than search engines. I read a fair bit of people's creative writing, and I almost never see anything that would make me think their work would be indexed by search engines in a way that would get them a substantial amount of views. I may be wrong, but that is my feeling when I scan short poems in hubs. What I also see, especially when hopping hubs, which I quite like to do is a scary amount of total rubbish being written. Sorry for being so harsh, but when hopping hubs, I am often shocked at the poorly written and designed hubs, and can see why large quantities of stuff like that would bring us all down, if indeed Google is now rating individual hubs based on the quality of the whole of Hubpages. And even if it weren't, I think it's good to spring clean and weed the internet in general. I feel sorry for the people who are caught in the line of fire, and many seem to have valid cases to feel hurt and betrayed by what is happening, but as Greekgeek also points out, Hubpages will no doubt tweak their changes to hopefully get it right. It is my view that they are trying to do something that will benefits us all in the long run.
    And as a side note - I have 16 hubs, most of which were written in the last month and started in April this year only. None of them have been put on idle mode. Some of them get almost no traffic as I didn't know what I was doing when I started, but I have been updating them regularly to see if I can improve them as I learn more about what works and what doesn't because I am the kind of person that would rather make sure what I have done so far is good rather than churn out vast quantities of work without taking the time to reflect on the quality.
    That's my tuppence worth. I support this change because I believe it is necessary. But as a last note, I think it would be nice for Hubpages to acknowledge what it may do to creative writers, and provide some advice for them specifically. It would be a shame if Hubpages lost all the creative writers due to this experiment.

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    Bard of Elyposted 11 years ago

    Well, I just had a look and have lots of idle hubs which is very sad because I know I put a lot of work into many of them and some have done very well in the past but obviously not any more.  It explains why my earnings here are so bad. This month has been the worst ever!  To take them all off here and republish elsewhere will take ages. I am not sure what to do. This is sad news for me!
    
    What I really don't understand is that my writing ability must be OK because I can get decent payments for work in printed publications eg just had another article accepted for Kindred Spirit and they are paying me 100 pounds. Articles here of the same length and quality often do badly though and are now classified as idle!  If I had enough work for offline publications I think I would abandon writing online! In my experience it is a tremendous amount of work for very little financial reward.

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    writeronlineposted 11 years ago

    Many of us are saying the same thing here, and have been for a long time. The site is littered with crap; our HP leaders have no idea how to purge it (neither do I, but Im not running a site enticing people to load work I can make money from..), nothing they've done so far has been able to appease Google, and so we're collectively heading for oblivion.
    
    But the simplistic nature of this latest cleansing effort is laughable. The idea that traffic is a marker of quality is as flawed as the idea that 'fresh is best'. We're not running a foodmarket for God's sake. What next, best before dates in the subtitle? Yet these are the two key parameters which provide the basis for putting good quality work to sleep. (It's euthansia folks, not a long nap we're talking about). The many comments about how much poorly written, and spun garbage is found any time one visits the Hub Hopper prove the flaw; this is new stuff, 'fresh' content. What's the point of zzz-ing good work if there's no mechanism for stopping fresh crap at the sewer gate?
    
    This approach reminds me of an old English comedy TV show. The keyline gag was a tailor holding up a bolt of fabric you could see through, and saying "never mind the quality, feel the width."

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       EmpressFelicityposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       This^100

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          Marcy Goodfleischposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          It's my understanding that the new Idle program includes a way to run each new hub through a system that will better identify spun, copied or poorly written content.  With the hundreds (maybe thousands) of new hubs posted each day, there's no way the site can manually filter those things. Obviously, there may still be some garbage getting through, but I personally trust HP to have come up with the best means available to do this efficiently and effectively.
          
          Certainly, if someone publishes a new hub and they feel it is unfairly snoozed, they can appeal to the moderators. Overall, I am very glad to see the site take steps to stop having everyone on HP penalized (by Google) for the type of content search engines hate.
          
          Also, the few of us who are commenting on this thread are just a small percentage of the hundreds of thousands of writers here.  We have no idea of the full scope of the problem. It's reasonable to assume that this is a cumulative problem that has grown over a period of several years.  As I see it, the site is making an effort to allow those writers with content that draws down the rankings to stay on the site, without causing everyone else to suffer. Writers who have idled hubs will still get the traffic they've seen before, in all likelihood, because few of those were getting traffic from Google.
          
          If we have hubs that are idled, and that we think should be indexed, hey - we are grown-ups - we can work on them!  If you write for a newspaper and the editor kicks back a story, you don't sulk and complain, you get to work and fix the story so it will be acceptable.
          
          Meanwhile, the poor content that we all know is lurking around on the site will be unindexed, and that will help all of us.

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             EmpressFelicityposted 11 years agoin reply to this

             I don't see anything about being able to appeal to the moderators in the learning centre or blog entries.
             
             That said, I am all in favour of running newly published hubs though this system and provided there's a fair way to appeal that actually involves the hub in question being read by a human being, then great. Long overdue, in fact.
             
             
             
             The difference is that with a newspaper article, you're hopefully being paid a sum of money that makes a real contribution to your living costs.
             
             With my hubs, the amount of money I make is now too negligible to fart around with constant updates.
             
             It's nice that you trust HubPages. Good for you.

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                Marcy Goodfleischposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                I think we always have the opportunity to appeal decisions on the site, but I could be wrong.  I agree with you that many (most) of the writers don't make significant amounts of money here, but we also don't pay a cent to be hosted on a site with very high overall rankings.  We don't buy software or pay for someone to build the site and maintain it.  I have no talent in that area, and no desire to learn it (it's sort of like I feel about my car - I want to put gas in it and drive it, I don't want to tinker with the engine). 
                
                Yes, it's true that newspapers pay you money (usually, but not always, if it's a small publication). They can also drop you (fire you) if you produce junk.  They do not keep bad writers around just so they can pay them to learn, and they don't make money off of fiction or poetry, so they don't pay people to write those things.  I'm not knocking poetry or fiction; I've written those types of hubs, too.  I just understand the reality of writing in a commercialized setting.  Newspapers are also commercialized, so they behave similarly to HP, but you get paid once for freelance work, you don't get the passive income you can get from building an inventory of good, informative content.

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                   EmpressFelicityposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                   We do pay to use this site, because HP takes 40% of our revenue up front. So it's not actually true to say that "we don't pay a cent". The deal is "give up 40% of your revenue, and in exchange you get to host your writing on a site that's easy to use and is more visible to searchers than your own blog or stand-alone site".
                   
                   The "easy to use" part is still true, but the "more visible to searchers" part is becoming more and more debatable.

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                WriteAngledposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                Marcy is in the apprentice programme and is therefore being paid money upfront for every hub she produces. The sum paid for just one hub is more than I earn from HP Ads per month with 21 hubs!
                Therefore, she has already been rewarded for her time, regardless of whether or not her hubs get zzz-ed.No wonder she is happy to trust HubPages!

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                   Horatio Plotposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                   That's not a fair thing to say WA. Do you seriously think Marcy's involvement on the site and in these forums is because she gets a few dollars from the AP?
                   All her comments here are balanced, positive and well thought through. She has a life time in print journalism behind her and is simply sharing her knowledge with the community
                   People on this forum need to get over themselves.
                   If you don't "trust" HP, or believe they are not working in your best interest, just pack your bags and leave.
                   There is a lot of junk on HP. All the site is trying to do is to improve things.
                   I've said it before in this thread and all say it again. The bar HP is setting here is not that high. If Hubs have been idled then they most likely deserve it.
                   There's no Machiavellian plot here that I can see. Just a genuine attempt to improve the site.
                   Horatio.
                   P.S. Marcy ROCKS!!

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                      IzzyMposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                      Uh-uh! The way you said this suggests that all idled hubs are of low quality, and this is simply not the case.
                      Many, many previously successful hubbers have hubs that have died because Google withdrew their love from the whole account.
                      A huge amount of mine are zeed. While I admit some of them (sales hubs) may be below my own quality bar, they worked at the time.
                      Many I have written since last August have never seen a Google view, are high quality, and have been sent to sleep. Like this one - http:// izzym.hubpages.com/hub/Increase-in-Honor-Killings-in-Western-Nations - link broken on purpose.
                      
                      I understand what HP are trying to do, but don't fall into the trap of labelling all sleeping hubs 'junk' or 'low quality'. Some are, some aren't.

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                         Horatio Plotposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                         Sorry, it did come over that way.
                         I was just trying to point out that there is some crap in this place.
                         I read the Hub you mentioned. It's a fine piece of work.
                         I then searched for, "Honor killings in Western Nations", and it didn't show up on the first 50 pages of Google through Pagewash, even though that exact search term gets zero AdWord Keyword Tool results, so it should show near the top. It only shows when you search with inverted commas. I don't understand that. Is that to do with Google not liking your sub-domain?
                         Horatio

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                            IzzyMposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                            You probably won't find it now as it has been de-indexed when zeed by  HP, but no loss to me as in the 8 months since publication, it has had exactly 1 Google view!
                            
                            I just linked this one to show you what has been happening to some of us. Google simply withdrew and hid our hubs somewhere deep in their search pages, and many simply didn't show up even with an exact title search in inverted commas.
                            
                            I think it was Paul E who once said one of the signs of a healthy account was having your long-tail or unusual title showing up as #1 in Google on an exact search. He said something was wrong if it didn't, but didn't really elaborate on what exactly.
                            
                            Thanks for saying it is a find piece of work! I do appreciate that. As a writer we all enjoy getting some praise for our hard work
                            
                            I linked it to show that sometimes Google totally ignores perfectly good articles, and I have been advised time and again by other hubbers that it can just take one bad hub on your subdomain to pull the lot down.
                            
                            Unfortunately, I couldn't find the culprit, and my next step would have been a mass unpublishing.
                            
                            Now with the 'on idle' hubs, I don't need to bother.

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                      EmpressFelicityposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                      Generalise much?

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                         Will Apseposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                         Staff have been asking for examples of pages that are being idled without good reason. I haven't seen many examples being offered. Just people complaining that pages that they hope will do well one day (they probably wouldn't if left untouched) have been hit.

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                            EmpressFelicityposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                            I could provide you with one example right off the top of my head - Uninvited Writer's hub about Banned Books Week, which she mentioned on this thread as having been idled. BBW takes place in a month or so, so it's a seasonal hub which was idled at a particularly bad time. I am sure there are other examples - not only of seasonal hubs, but ones that only get rare hits, but lucrative ones.
                            
                            I would also echo the comments made by others here - if HP wants to get rid of certain types of hub (like creative writing or opinion pieces that don't get much traffic), it would have been far more honest for them to just come out and say so.

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                               Will Apseposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                               Okay, we have one example. I'm not sure that makes a case.

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                      WriteAngledposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                      Why is it unfair to state that apprentices get upfront payments?
                      
                      While these payments are peanuts, they are still full bags of peanuts per hub compared to the single peanut HP Ads doles out every couple of days or so.
                      
                      If a subgroup of people here is paid several dollars per piece for anything they feel like churning out, regardless of its quality or lack thereof, they are obviously going to have a different attitude about the site and about the idle process to someone who gets practically nothing and runs the risk of losing even that pittance due to their hubs being censored from the search engines.
                      
                      Please note the above is a global statement. I have never read a single hub of Marcy's because none of them have come to my attention so far. Therefore I am not making any personal statements regarding the quality of her output
                      
                      Incidentally, none of my hubs have been axed at present, so I am not writing from a position of rancour either.
                      
                      Why should I pack up and leave? I might as well pick up the odd cent here and there for what I've already produced. It makes no difference to me either way. I can also use this site to test new topics as and when I feel like it.
                      
                      I've taken six well performing same-topic hubs away and started a web site with them. I have also started a couple of other web sites.
                      
                      At the end of the day though, I can earn more in a couple of hours doing my real job than I earn in a year here, hence the reason I have only 21 hubs after 2 years.
                      
                      As for trust: I do not trust any commercial enterprise, since the only aim of such entities is to make money for themselves and their shareholders. I do not see why HP should be an exception to this rule.

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                   writeronlineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                   I'm not 'sulking' Marcy, nor 'complaining'. I'm simply making a point about what defines quality, based on as many years I'd warrant, as yourself in the 'real', commercial world of writing for a living.
                   You observe that newspapers "do not keep bad writers around just so they can pay them to learn." Absolutely correct. Due respect Marcy, but based on a number of hubs I've seen  'written' by some apprentices, I'd say that's exactly what HP is doing.
                   Let's at least have equal rules for what HP considers quality output - even if, by virtue of the point WriteAngled has made, HP no longer applies *equality* to all its contributors.
                   As to your dismissal of fiction as something newspapers don't make money off, that may (or may not, in all cases) be true. But there's plenty of evidence that fiction, in hardcopy and e-book form is not only alive and well - but generating enormous sums in certain genres
                   There's a great deal of very good work of long standing on HP in the creative writing sphere that can't somehow have become 'poor quality' overnight. Unless you believe that traffic equals quality. It just reflects a policy change from the site owners (as is their right, of course) 'No longer required', 'not relevant to our needs', apparently. So say that, HP. Don't consign it to the junk heap under false pretences that will simply alienate more previously loyal Hubbers.
                   
                   BTW, Marcy, on the 'dissonance' implicit in the apprenticeship program, please don't trot out the defence that 'all you people complaining about the apprenticeship program are just jealous of us, because you're not good enough writers to provide any potential for HP". I'm bored with hearing it. (TBH, I know you're too grown up and professional to bother with that Marcy. I'm really just trying to forestall the usual avalanche of criticism from dewy-eyed HP glee club cheerleaders that normally intrudes into these types of discussions here on HP forums. Even if we with an alternative view on quality are 'only a few' that doesn't make us automatically wrong)
                   Cheers

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                   summerberrieposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                   It is not necessary to begin stereotyping or questioning other members integrity. Those who are in the apprenticeship program are capable of giving their objective opinion. Marcy nor I or anyone in the apprenticeship program have anything to gain or lose from either agreeing or disagreeing with this feature. Some of our hubs written under the program were idled just like every other hubber's. HP explained their motives on the onset of this thread.  I would like to believe these changes will make this site a more stable and viable site in order to withstand the onslaughts of G's updates. They have met with Google -I have not.

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                      writeronlineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                      "It is not necessary to begin stereotyping or questioning other members integrity." I didn't do that, as an objective read of, rather than an emotional over-reaction to my comment would prove.
                      But in that vein, at present, by virtue of these changes authors of 'creative writing' are now stereotyped as authors of 'poor quality' hubs.
                      Notwithstanding the laudable (I'm NOT being sarcastic) objectives of the changes, there's a lack of openness from HP in this regard, and I, along with others on this thread have every right to question it.

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                         Will Apseposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                         People tend to be kind about the creative writing on Hubpages but it is not an obligation.

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                   Marcy Goodfleischposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                   I really wish people would not attribute every comment someone in the apprentice program makes to the fact that the individual is in that program. I didn't ask to be in the program, I didn't ask for the small stipend we get for hubs while we are in the program, and I'd have gladly paid HP tuition fees for the learning opportunity. The program takes many hours longer than those spent simply writing the hubs.
                   
                   As for my attitude about HP's decisions, all I can say is that they have far more experience than I do in the ways of the online world, and yes, I trust them to make decisions that are healthy for the site (and therefore, healthy for the writers here).  I voiced concerns about the need to address quality issues before I was enrolled in the Apprentice Program, and it's still a concern I have. I'm glad to see the site come up with an efficient way to addess those issues, and I'd also have been glad six months ago. Being in the program hasn't changed that one bit.

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                      Will Apseposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                      You are the target of envy. Enjoy it!

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                         writeronlineposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                         No envy from me. I assume you must be talking about yourself.

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                      TFScientistposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                      I find the paid up front argument particulalrly amusing. I mad emote in ad income this month than from the AP programme. Puts to be bed the idea that I don't spend quality time on my hubs.
                      
                      It does strike me that those spending a huge amount of time complaining on this forum could instead use that time to add an rss feed or ad capsule (things that automatically update and keep a hub fresher for longer) onto their zzz hubs. Stop moaning about it, the update has been applied so work with
                      It.

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       MarleneBothaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       I fully agree with writeronline. Point well made.

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    The Writers Dogposted 11 years ago

    As do I, which is why I am removing my 15 idled Hubs - including the six in the top ranking on Google - and moving them to my personal site.
    
    From now on I will only be posting factual articles and reviews on HP. It is not worth the blood, sweat and tears that goes into creative writing, only to have it demeaned and devalued by those only interested in hosting it for one reason - money.

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       aa liteposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       @The Writers Dog, I am curious, when you say "six top ranking on Google" what do you mean exactly.  How do you know they were, what did you Google?
       This is a very scary observation.  If hubs that rank really well in Google are being idled, then it is obvious that the ZzZ algorithm has gone mad, and is wildly picking off random hubs, good and bad.
       Are you sure you weren't googling with your personal settings on? sometimes that causes Google to give preferential treatment to pages you've visited often in the past?

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    lrohnerposted 11 years ago

    None of the hubs on my main account were idled and I haven't made any tweaks, changes or updates to any of them. And yet for one of my most obscure hubs, I woke up to this this morning:
    
    
    
    Sometimes sleeping dogs just wake up on their very own. Glad it didn't get idled.

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       MarleneBothaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       Wow that's a big difference!!

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       WorkAtHomeMumsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       I've seen similar results on my hubs without doing anything at all. Not sure if it's related though. I'd say it's too soon for there to be a link but I'm happy to be proven wrong.

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          lrohnerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Meaning no disrespect, WAHM, I don't know what you're talking about. My point is that hubs that have little to no traffic can suddenly be resuscitated for no apparent reason. Just because a hub has little to no traffic today or this month doesn't mean it's dead forever. Hubs that are "idled," however, are dead for all intents and purposes.

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             Will Apseposted 11 years agoin reply to this

             You show a page that took off after 6 months (as far as your graphic allows anyone to see).
             
             This is such a typical trajectory, I can't believe that HP are not aware of it.
             
             If it really turns out that pages like this suffer in any way we will all be running around with our skirts around our head. Perhaps you should put your fears aside until there is a reason for them.

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       rebekahELLEposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       +
       
       I don't have any ZZ's, but I wouldn't want to wake up and find one of my slower traffic hubs idled and de-indexed.

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    Bard of Elyposted 11 years ago

    As for the poetry and creative writing here how can that be judged? Any writer knows that in the world of publishing books, poetry, songs and music, all of these art-forms can be ignored and this is not necessarily to do with quality at all. The prime example would be JK Rowling who as an author was rejected by countless publishers before she got accepted! Once something is published and marketed successfully it becomes a valued commodity even if it is essentially the same!
    
    So OK; I personally never had good result for poems and song lyrics here but that didn't worry me, however, I now find a whole load of subjects including most hubs about the island of Tenerife and Tenerife herbs all listed as idle.
    
    I see all this talk about updating hubs and have done some of this in the past and recently. What happens is the score rises for a short while and then they plummet again. Are we expected to be making almost daily changes to our hubs just so they are all updated? This is clearly impossible especially if you have hundreds of hubs like I do. Often it can be hard to update a hub if there is not fresh info to include. Perhaps some creative writing could be included there just so you could say I added something new to the text of a hub?

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    Mark Ewbieposted 11 years ago

    I'm really in two minds about this.  It is drawing my attention to stuff that really isn't worth keeping - either for income or even personal satisfaction reasons.  So it's a way to clear out the dead wood.
    
    But then the latest I have that has been ZZZed is a page for St.Patrick's day.  A 'hilarious' spoof offer for a real product - it's something that I am personally happy with, and might just sell a fridge magnet one.. St.Patrick's Day.
    
    So I tweaked it and it will live again for a bit longer - but then I may need to tweak it several times a year just to keep it alive for the brief St.Patricks day window.
    
    Not sure how to deal with this.  I can't keep going back to it and the other thing is that if I ever had a break from HP - of a a few days say - then I might get stuff idled and removed that I couldn't keep up with.

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       Marcy Goodfleischposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       Mark, your writing is so good, and so unique.  I have also wondered how writers who do the great poetry, fiction and humor we see here can juggle the tweaking that might be needed.  I do understand that HP did not create Google's pick-and-choose search criteria, and HP didn't create the penalty box Google has imposed.
       
       I have a few short essays or poems, and I will either update them if they are seasonal, or maybe publish them elsewhere at some point.  I have no regrets if I do that - being on HP gave me the motivation to write those pieces, and I'm glad they're written, rather than floating around in my head still (where they'd likely have stayed forever).  I thoroughly agree with the Idles I have - they either need to be tweaked in terms of SEO issues, or perhaps repurposed. Or left on the site to get whatever traffic they draw but not in a way that will drop my rankings.

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          Mark Ewbieposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Oh hey thanks Marcy.  I need to think about this stuff but I can't help St.Patricks day only happening once a year.

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    DonnaCSmithposted 11 years ago

    I don't have a problem with this at all. I am looking through them and deleting some  that I feel I can rewrite and remarket other places. Some I may rewrite and see if they do better here. One thing I've learned about the Internet and the writing business - it constantly changes. Best to learn to change, too.

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    Reality Bytesposted 11 years ago

    The attempt to squash dissent by obvious cliques is...well...disturbing!

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       Will Apseposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       Idiotic and unnecessary panic is fun. I get to face palm and I get to lash out. What more could I ask? lol.

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          Reality Bytesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          There should have been a 30 day notice before implementing changes like this, give people time to fix, delete, or move their property!
          
          
          It is understandable why people would be upset.  The rah rah members that are vested in to various site programs are obviously biased!

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             Will Apseposted 11 years agoin reply to this

             Well, I ain't vested in any site programs. I just want the site to succeed. This may or may not work in a big way but given the slow slide of the last six months it it seems a sensible move.
             
             Also, I have to point out the obvious- if you want to move pages. a month's notice would not be of no help to you.

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                Reality Bytesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                I also want the site to succeed.  I was not referring to you specifically.
                
                
                
                
                
                This latest change has not had any effect on me. A month would have allowed users sufficient time to make decisions, the way this change was rolled out did not give much time for members to make any other plans.  I would think that most members do not log in everyday.  How must it feel to log in to an account to find all your hard work penalized without notice.  Work that was in good standing!

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                   Will Apseposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                   I can't see any special email announcing this change in my account so that last point is pretty valid. They should really send out an email every time a page is put on idle. People getting a large number of idled hubs should get a bit of time in the initial period.

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                      Reality Bytesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                      That is my point, thank you for engaging me in a civil discussion.

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             summerberrieposted 11 years agoin reply to this

             I'm not sure I sounded biased? We are all invested in HP not just one "group" of people. This thread is beginning to lose its objectivity..... 
             
             I think the 30 day notice is a good suggestion which is the intent of this thread.

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                Horatio Plotposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                Me! Me! I'm biased RB I'm a rah-rah member. I  swallow everything the big bosses say without hesitation;
                
                "There was funky Marcy G and little summerB,
                They said, here comes the big boss, look out it's Big Paul E,
                We took the bow and made a stand, started swaying with the hand
                A sudden motion made me skip, now we're into a brand new trip...
                Everybody was Kung Fu fighting, Huh!
                Those cats were fast as lightning, Ha!
                In fact it was a little bit fright'ning
                But they did it with expert timing."

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                Reality Bytesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                We all have an investment in HP, that is true.  When I scroll through a thread to see members of a few months telling members of years:  "If you don't like it leave".  I have to wonder about their motivation.  I am not in any way singling you out, what I am saying is that it appears that those members that are vested in these programs seem to hail every move by the site as well as attempting to quell dissension.
                
                It makes me ponder?

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                   EmpressFelicityposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                   You're not the only one.

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                      Horatio Plotposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                      Ah! Old conspiracy theorists never die, they just fade away.
                      And Neil Armstrong never walked on the moon.
                      Woops! Sorry! I forgot. I shouldn't be posting here, should I? I haven't been here long enough yet.

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                         EmpressFelicityposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                         You know, I'm surprised I'm still able to speak... what with all the words you've put in my mouth

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                   summerberrieposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                   I am not convinced HP views any opinion here as a form of dissension or a form of loyalty. This tread was opened to give hubbers a forum to express their likes and or dislikes about the new feature. They have gotten a healthy dose of both. Hopefully, they will incorporate insights of its users to perfect this feature. I do not ponder anything beyond that...

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