Anti-Hub Challenge drivel

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  1. Julie-Ann Amos profile image64
    Julie-Ann Amosposted 14 years ago

    I understand some people are worried about the "antiHubChallenge" or whatever it's called, and  I just wanted to say something on a personal level to get my own thoughts out in the open about it.  And this is my PERSONAL view - yes, we do have a HubChallenge team and we communicate daily, but there's no "party line" on this and nothing's been discussed. 

    I know I'm about to become as popular as a rat sandwich around here.  But I for one intend making more money here by posting an average of one hub a day from now on, and helping others do the same and build up to good traffic and adsense figures.  And before anyone waves the "but this is a community for writers to interact" flag at me, sure it is.  But I don't go around moaning at you for writing fiction and political/religious opinion, so stop moaning at people for joining the HubChallenge.  Heard it.

    I'm tired of having to wade through forum posts about the HubChallenge being crap to read what the post was about in the first place.  Yes there are lousy hubs out there, and whenever I come across them I flag them, add a snarky comment, check the hubber's other hubs and if it's a repeated pattern I flag the others too.  That's due process.  Then I sit back and let HubPages staff take care of it.  Personally, I don't get any great sense of satisfaction, superiority, self-worth, moral outrage or WHATEVER from policing other people's hubs.  Obviously some people do, and good for them - but let's see that for what it is.  Rah Rah, Hooray to you (whoever you are) for spotting lousy hubs.  Well done.  How clever of you.  Can we get over it now? 

    So advice for those over-burdened with either HubChallenge OR crap hubs.  Try these simple tips.

    1. Stop looking at them (Doh!). 
    2. If you must look at them, flag them.
    3. Work out how to turn off hub notifications. 
    4. Un-fan people who post crap.
    5. Flag it and do try to overcome the burning desire to post about either how clever you are for spotting it or how awful it is that you had to see it in the first place.
    6. If you really hate the challenge that much, un-fan anyone in it, then you won't have to see any of our hubs ever again.
    7. Stay out of the HubChallenge forum, where it's fairly likely to assume you might be exposed to all kinds of posts about the HubChallenge and its hubs.

    That should solve your problem.

    Now, about the HubChallenge producing crap hubs, the people participating not having a life, and all that other stuff.

    Yes, I'm pissed at that too.  Why?  Because I busted my guts doing 100 hubs in 30 days, even though most of them were already written and unpublished.  I'd just had surgery on BOTH my legs at once, was still on crutches and morphine, and booked to take my terminally-ill father to the Mille Miglia in Italy for a trip-of-his-lifetime week's holiday.  But of course, I don't have a life because I get to post 100 hubs in 30 days.  Must have imagined it.  And I'm not the only one with off-HubPages stuff going on that STILL does the challenge.  WE WANT TO - HubPages didn't force us to, and it's not because we don't have a life! 

    I don't give a rat's arse about getting a pat on the back for it, so PLEASE no posts about that - I'm a workaholic, so it's neither a good thing or something to be proud of that I can work like that.  But I do resent this general opinion that's going round that everyone who posted 100 hubs in 30 days posted crap.  (I did 102, so that must make me even worse than the allegedly evil Prince of Darkness, Darkside himself!) Not true.  As a professional writer, I want to say that out loud just once, not for my own reputation but because I know a lot of people posted some great hubs, because I saw them, and I'm fed up of people slinging muck at the good work that was done, burying it under disapproval for the bad ones that there probably were. 

    Frankly, being on the HubChallenge team is costing me time out of my own business and doing my own hubs.  And I'm getting really pissed at having to spend that precious time dealing with all the whining.  I started off being pissed at the moaners.  But actually that's dumb.  You people getting wound up by them are being plain silly.

    IGNORE IT!  Stop feeding people's egos and inducing even more drivel by replying to them.  You can't delete a post from a thread, or ignore a particular poster so just pretend it's not there.  Sprinkle invisibility dust on that poster and cut off their supply of ego fuel by just ignoring them completely.  You encourage more crap by replying to it.  Stop giving dialogue - it's not worth the time. Go do a good hub and get revenge that way.

    To those who obviously like to post demotivating crap, criticising people for having a go at something that just might improve their discipline, writing, motivation, creativity, income potential etc, of course you're free to do so.  Good for you. 

    Some of us are too busy making a living from this to care, but those who aren't (as yet) obviously need a bit of encouragement, so please stop upsetting the newbies. They haven't yet worked out that just because someone's been here a while and posted lots of hubs or forum posts or written a book, they're not worth listening to.

    1. darkside profile image62
      darksideposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I just want to quote this bit again.

      You've summed it very well.

      1. Smireles profile image64
        Smirelesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

        Thank you, darkside. I just wanted to second you! Spend time writing and less time thinking about what everyone else is doing! duh!

        1. darkside profile image62
          darksideposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          I just want to third you seconding me!

          Just kidding, welcome to the forum Smireles. It's nice to see a new face in the forum of someone who's been hubbing away for a while. Welcome!

  2. Julie-Ann Amos profile image64
    Julie-Ann Amosposted 14 years ago

    PS.  That was a LONG (and uncomfortable) post so PLEASE snip quotes in any replies.  It's polite.  We don'tneed to see it again and again in replies.

    New people, it's easy - just snip out my post by editing the bit between [ quote ] and [ /quote] in brackets or don't quote me at all, just hit "reply" instead of "quote/reply"! 

    Otherwise this'll be the longest thread in living memory!

  3. Uninvited Writer profile image80
    Uninvited Writerposted 14 years ago

    Very well said, thank you

    1. Julie-Ann Amos profile image64
      Julie-Ann Amosposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Darnit I wish I could do the clever images like this!  Do they do a feeding laxatives to a diarrhea spouter one?  I could have USED that...

  4. profile image0
    wordscribe41posted 14 years ago

    It's very late here, so I'll make this brief.  I posted somewhere earlier about my irritation over the "Anti HubChallenge."  I was considering starting a similar thread.  But, as time is limited, I applaud you, Julie.  You have expressed your sentiments beautifully, and I wholeheartedly share them.

  5. Marisa Wright profile image84
    Marisa Wrightposted 14 years ago

    I hope you feel better after that rant, Julie-Ann!

    I feel like I'm sitting between the two camps.

    I didn't like the 100 Hubs Challenge one little bit. I didn't notice any more "cr@p Hubs" than usual, but the Challenge swamped Hubtivity and the Forums and ruined my enjoyment of HP for a while.  I was also concerned it gave newbies the impression that quantity was more important than quality - plus it made less commercially-oriented Hubbers feel unloved.


    I think it's high time everyone got over it.


    The new challenge is totally different. Thirty Hubs in thirty days is a perfectly reasonable total.  It's not being spruiked all over the forums.  It's not a competition because there's no set start or end date.  It's a way for Hubbers to motivate themselves and support each other.

    What, I ask you, is wrong with that?

  6. Uninvited Writer profile image80
    Uninvited Writerposted 14 years ago

    I found it on photobucket smile  Maybe do a Google search on what you want? big_smile

  7. Mrvoodoo profile image56
    Mrvoodooposted 14 years ago

    I only made it about half way through your rant lol, sorry, allow me to condense it for you 'if you don't like it, then you can **** off!'

    A forum being an arena for debate should allow everybody to air their views, even negative ones, but you make a tried and tested point 'if you don't like it, don't read it, ignore it, and go do something else instead.'

  8. lrohner profile image68
    lrohnerposted 14 years ago

    Well said, Julie! And sorry to hear about your surgery and your father.

  9. KCC Big Country profile image84
    KCC Big Countryposted 14 years ago

    Wow, Julie-Ann.....that pretty much summed it up!  Good job!  I totally agree with you!

  10. Marketing Sucesso profile image60
    Marketing Sucessoposted 14 years ago

    I must say that I totally agree with everything you said. Keep it up!

  11. Dame Scribe profile image56
    Dame Scribeposted 14 years ago

    I love reading all the new Hubs or least as many as I can big_smile . I don't see anything wrong with challenging one's own abilities and have great admiration for all our challengers. smile keep up the great work I say.

  12. profile image0
    pgrundyposted 14 years ago

    Hi Julie Ann. I know what you mean. I don't have a thing against the Hub Challenges. I do what I can, and all along I've just done my own thing here. That's what I like about HP most--they let me do my own thing and most of the people here are pretty nice. Join the Hub Challenge, don't join it, it's all cool.

    I don't know why people get so whipped up about this stuff.

    I personally am having fun here. smile

  13. sunstreeks profile image79
    sunstreeksposted 14 years ago

    Perfectly said!!!! I'm not doing the challenge this time, maybe will attempt again later.. But I APPLAUD everyone who is doing it. I think it is an AWESOME way to jumpstart earnings.

    In April I made $260. The last hubchallege in May I produce about 60+ hubs and then a group more in June. Now I'm making almost $500 a month from hubpages. Seriously $474 this month and I only wrote one hub in July just a few days ago! I will get a nice passive income each month because I ignored the people who complained that challengers bogging down the community with all our newly published hubs and continued to do this for myself during the challenge.. 

    Hubbers need to stop thinking that this is where you can come and complain to the forum about not making any money and bicker at those who are making an effort to do so. Instead of spending time on useless negative posts, use it for what the business model meant it to be.. Free virtual real estate for passive affiliate income. Take ADVANTAGE of what Hubpages is offering for FREE to YOUR WALLET and stop whining about how it is affecting the "community"

    I'm here to write and make money. I like to participate in the forums. I've enjoyed those who've I've become acquainted with. I think hubpages has an awesome group. But truth be told, my income - insanely more important then my fan list. Take me off your fan list if my output during a challenge is offensive to you

  14. WeddingConsultant profile image65
    WeddingConsultantposted 14 years ago

    Well said Julie-Ann, I couldn't have said it better.

    1. barryrutherford profile image75
      barryrutherfordposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      ditto !!!! smilesmilesmile

      1. Julie-Ann Amos profile image64
        Julie-Ann Amosposted 14 years agoin reply to this

        Thnaks Barry.  PLEASE can you delete your reply above which is just a repost of my post?  It jjust takes up a lot of space and you didn't make a comemnt....

  15. Sufidreamer profile image78
    Sufidreamerposted 14 years ago

    Hi Julie-Ann

    Hope that you feel a little better!

    I can understand how you feel put-out - your name does not belong in the same sentence as 'low quality.'

    I pretty much agree with Marisa about the whole thing. The first challenge did have some adverse effects, and put a lot of noses out of joint. It fostered an 'us and them' mentality and made many writers feel under-appreciated.

    The strength of Hubpages is that it is one of the few writing sites to use such a blend of talent - people visit an informative article, get what they need and hopefully make HP and the writer some money. In other cases, they read Hubs by Paraglider or Pam and bookmark them, making the site much more 'sticky.' The original challenge tipped the scales, IMO.

    This new challenge, however, I like - it is giving people a good challenge, and also teaching less-experienced writers a few tricks about how to write good SEO Hubs and hit Adsense. All good stuff smile

    Ultimately, the onus is now on the community to develop some challenges for the other writers - Lita's poetry challenge is the last one I remember.  neutral

    1. Marisa Wright profile image84
      Marisa Wrightposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Thank you, Sufidreamer! This is worth repeating because I note none of the "anti-challengers" have joined this debate - perhaps because they feel they'll be jumped on.  So I think it's worth emphasising the moderate view!

      1. Nanny J.O.A.T. profile image68
        Nanny J.O.A.T.posted 14 years agoin reply to this

        I don't really care if I get jumped on - I just found your post since I don't really haunt the forums like other sometimes do...

        It was typical that a simple concept - Write all you want, where and how you want - but make it quality and when you find spam or anti-hubs - take some responsibility and flag it for review, and, by the way - here's a little pic to show that you are a responsible writer - turned into a flow of comments that attempted to twist and distort that original message up to and  including personal attacks.

        I won't go into all that was said in comments and some forum posts that I ran across- but I did write a companion to the Anti Hub Challenge called Hubs vs Anti Hubs - a Tutorial on Social Dynamics. I found it rather interesting that while issues may change - the human reaction to anything different, unknown or promoting any type of change doesn't.

        So write all you want for your own reasons - just write it well. smile

  16. Bakari Chavanu profile image59
    Bakari Chavanuposted 14 years ago

    Julie, I just want to say I agree with you and thank you for your support of my questions and work in seriously getting started as a writer for HubPages.

    I admit that I'm writing for the money, but that doesn't mean I'm not concerned about the quality of my writing. As I said in other threads, this challenge is good for getting started with Hubpages, for learning to write quickly and effectively, and perhaps in the end make a few bucks. While it would be impossible to write 100 hubs in 30 days, I think it's a good challenge to write 30, because anyone who seriously seeks to get into freelance writing must learn to be a prolific writer.

    So thanks again to the team for facilitating this challenge.

  17. viryabo profile image94
    viryaboposted 14 years ago

    Julie Ann, well said and straight to the point. The challenge is helping me tremendously and i'm really glad im taking part in the 30-30.
    Who cares about the anti-hubchallenge group? Well i don't, and in fact they spur me on to make something of this.
    You and the team? WELL DONE. smile

  18. Jane@CM profile image60
    Jane@CMposted 14 years ago

    Well said.  Thank you so much!

  19. Trekkiemelissa profile image64
    Trekkiemelissaposted 14 years ago

    As everyone else has said, well said.  We are here to have fun anyways smile  I bet now it feels good getting it off of your chest.

  20. NYMiskovic profile image60
    NYMiskovicposted 14 years ago

    I must admit, I find you a little indimidating Julie Ann. But, thank you so much for your words of encouragement and for standing up for all of us you may not have had the courage to do so.

    I still consider myself a newbie and I entered into this challenge with a lot of excitement and with very high hopes of increasing my traffic and my earnings. However, after reading all this stuff about the anti-hub challenge I started to question if I was doing the right thing. 

    Your encouragement is greatly appreciated and I have noticed a big increase in my traffic since starting this challenge -- now I'm just waiting for the money to follow smile

    So, to all those nay sayers out there....I stand behind this challenge 100% and if you don't like it, go somewhere else!!

  21. KCC Big Country profile image84
    KCC Big Countryposted 14 years ago

    Do you know how you can tell if you're doing the right thing?  If you're having fun and it feeeeeeeeels right!  None of us need to worry about what anyone else is doing. This is HubPages' way of encouraging you to be your personal best.  The challenge is all yours.  Those of us on the team saw what a great thing the last challenge was for us and we're proud to be a part of your experience this go around.  It's a win-win as far as I'm concerned.  I am quite impressed with the level of committment and talent I have seen during this challenge.

  22. yoshi97 profile image55
    yoshi97posted 14 years ago

    I did two hubs just the other day and didn't work up too much of a sweat. At that rate, one can do 60 hubs a month (62 on the odd months and 56 in February ... unless it's a leap year).

    So, what in the heck is Yoshi trying to say?

    30 hubs in a month is not a stretch and should not be considered a spamfest. If someone can write 1000 quality hubs in a month then I have no problem with them.

    What I have a problem with is the person who writes 5 spammy hubs in a month because someone told them to write a hub just full of keywords and they would make a lot of adsense (didn't happen here - happened elsewhere).

    I'm all for people making money from their writings. As a person who writes and sells short stories from time to time, I can tell you how great it feels to get paid for your hard work and how dismal it feels when you write something you thought was great, only to find it's already been overdone and nobody wants it. As such, I'm all for writers profiting from their hard work.

    Let's face it ... professional writing isn't a not-for-profit business. And to all of those who write 'just for the fun of it' and do it well, I say this to you *You deserve to be paid too!* as much of your writing is of the same quality that sells in other places.

    I'll never be anti-hubchallenge, as I believe writers need to be challenged to keep producing. If my time constraints would allow it, I'd participate in the hubchallenge as well, but I don't rue those who have the time to do so ... I applaud them, as I know how much work it is to research and write out so many articles in a month's time.

    And what about daily columnists? Should we be against them too? After all, they produce an article a day. In essence, they're doing 30 hubs a day and forming a bond with their readers. And for them ... the hubchallenge never ends ... as they do it all year round for a living.

    So, let's stop hating on the hubbers who are looking to challenge themselves and focus on watching out for hubbers that are trying to challenge the site with pornographic hubs, gambling hubs, and hubs written to just gain clicks, with no meaningful content written. Those are the fish we want out of the ocean, and from what I can see, someone is obviously doing a pretty darned good job of scooping them out and throwing them out on the beach.

    Writing is kinda like Karaoke. It takes a lot of guts to get on stage and share your talent, regardless of whether your a pro, an amateur, or just someone who wants to share a song. Those singers form a bond together as they share a kindred spirit for music, just like we should be sharing our kindred spirit for writing.

    The whole thought that one writer can be upset with another for writing more ... well ... it just makes me mad, as we're supposed to be enjoying this process together. I like the hubber that writes one quality article a month just as much as the one that writes forty, so why can't the rest of us think the same way?

    We're writers, not twelve year olds suffering over envy, and when I see posts that say the hubchallenge is bad I go back to those days of old when we were still kids, envying the accomplishments of others, rather than applauding them and making accomplishments of our own.

    We're writers ... we write ... that's what we do. And if I'm wrong, then maybe we shouldn't set our anti-views so low. After all, what about those who post more on the forums than others? Should we be against them? What about those who earn more adsense than others? Hate them too? What about those who have higher hub scores? Hate them? And what about those who only post between midnight and six o' clock in the morning?

    There's no need for division. We're writers, and writer's stick together. So, should we dig up the horse and bury it again, or should we all get out there and write?

    Better yet ... a hubchallenge we can all sink our teeth into.

    This weekend, write the best hub you are capable of. Write and rewrite until you feel you have wrote a masterpiece ... then look at it again after you post it. Remember that feeling as you look at all the hard work you put into it, as that's the rewarding feeling one gets for being a writer, and the feeling only gets better with time as you write more gems.

    And as you finish reading it, accept something ... you're a writer (whether by fun or profession) and it's more important to spend your time producing great works of your own than it is to quibble over the efforts of others.

    We share our hopes, our desires, our knowledge, and our ideas. That's what writing is about ... not quibbling over the productivity of others.

    So, watcha waiting for? Get writing. smile

  23. KCC Big Country profile image84
    KCC Big Countryposted 14 years ago

    Wow....what a great 'speech/peptalk'.....(that's a sincere compliment!)

  24. yoshi97 profile image55
    yoshi97posted 14 years ago

    Thanks KC. smile

  25. fayans profile image62
    fayansposted 14 years ago

    Yoshi, well done and well said.

    BTW, who d' F@#% started this anti-hub challenge?

  26. yoshi97 profile image55
    yoshi97posted 14 years ago

    The name of the person who started the anti-hubchallenge isn't important, as I believe they were concerned an ongoing challenge would divide the people on this site.

    What's important is that we cement together as a community and lay that person's fears to rest. In my opinion, we shouldn't seek out to lynch them, we should be thankful they took the time to remind us how important the community is on Hubpages.

    And so, I say, let's pull together and show what we're all capable of as writers, eh? 'cause if we work together, then division has no chance to form. smile

    1. fayans profile image62
      fayansposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Certainly so! I couldn't have agreed more. Well, you hit the nail on the head once again, Yoshi.

  27. ethel smith profile image83
    ethel smithposted 14 years ago

    I rarely bother with forums as I just like these sites to write and earn some pennies. Yes I dropped out of the hub challenge because I have a life but it is one that involves 9-5 working and so time is tight. Don't have much of a life other than that just now lol.
    As you know Julie I love your work and applaud you guys who are able to complete the challlenge. I may manage 30 hubs, the way my writing is going just now, but could not commit to the challenge. I have too many other pressures right now.

    Kepp writing folks and I hope you all make lots of dosh. In the end that is what is all about, I do not care what others may maintain.

  28. Lissie profile image76
    Lissieposted 14 years ago

    Beautiful post JA - you said it all so much more elegantly than I could have!

    I have decided that its almost like there is a feeling that some of people online are above "being in Trade". I'm in trade, I need to make money online to survive, you run a successful business online, and are probably epitomy of that old truism that "if you want a job done - give it to a busy person!" - I couldn't believe it when I saw you were helping out the admin of the ongoing 30 day challenge!

    I have had similar issues on my blog - the anti-challenge crap in the forums was part of what inspired my rant on simple secret to online success - if you don't want to make money online - but I getting tired for being knocked for trying to - sorry not born with trust fund - this plan B LOL

  29. emievil profile image67
    emievilposted 14 years ago

    I bowed out of the Hubchallenge yesterday, due to personal reasons, but I never stopped believing in this challenge. To all you guys / gals still in this challenge, GO! GO! GO!

    Ms. Julie, that was quite a nice inspiring post (makes me want to do the hubchallenge all over again). Hope everybody read and take notice of what you wrote.

    Wouldn't it be nice if after the hubchallenge, those who participate can post the benefits they got from doing this challenge? I for one will be interested in looking at some real facts and figures.

    1. Julie-Ann Amos profile image64
      Julie-Ann Amosposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      We certainly will be - one of my criticisms of the last HubChallenge was that didn't happen.  I think if people had seen adsense or traffic figures they'd have been less challenged by it all.

      This time we'll certaily be inviting people to publicise their success.

      1. emievil profile image67
        emievilposted 14 years agoin reply to this

        Wow, thanks! Will look forward to that! Might have to deal with some jealousy and envy on my side because of your rising adsense revenues smile but I'll bear with them just to see those figures.

  30. bgpappa profile image80
    bgpappaposted 14 years ago


    Totally agree.

    I look at the challenge as motivation.  To set goals is good.  Too much emphasis is on the money made or not made.  More emphasis should be on the craft of writing in general. For me, I am not a full time writer but aspire to be.  Hubpages gave me a forum to try it out on my own time.  But as life goes on outside hubpages, the motivatin is nice to keep me focused.

    I applaud your effort to stop the madness.

  31. Julie-Ann Amos profile image64
    Julie-Ann Amosposted 14 years ago

    Hi Nanny I didn't actually see that hub or any of the personal attacks you refer to. 

    What I did see was (a) people saying the 100 in 30 hiubs were crap, and I reserve the right to defend my own reputation on that one and claim to be an exception to that comment.  And (b) a small bunch of people (who may have nothing to do with you and your hub I suspect) making disparaging and demotivating comments in THIS forum which is clearly a home to help support  those IN the Challenge or following it - which is why it's called 30 day HubChallengERS forum.

    I stand by the fact that this isn't the right place to do that.  Whichever forum it's in, picking on new people and making them feel alarmed, worried and discouraged needs to be exposed for what it is.  Unwelcome.

    What community we have here shouldn't be used to demotivate new people, however someone dresses it up.

    1. Nanny J.O.A.T. profile image68
      Nanny J.O.A.T.posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Thank you Julie - I suspected as you did - that alot of what has been said had nothing to do with my hub - although some of the comments on this thread do refer to it directly- those were the comments that I addressed. In no way was my hub any attempt to demotivate or intimidate anyone - so thank you for recognizing that. smile

      1. Marisa Wright profile image84
        Marisa Wrightposted 14 years agoin reply to this

        Nanny, as I posted on your Hub, the problem was the title of your Hub.  Yes, the content wasn't directly attacking the new Challenge, although it squarely blamed the old one for the appearance of spam.  But I certainly interpreted the title to mean you were "Anti" the Hub Challenge and you felt that Challenges created the spam.

        Clearly, many other people interpreted the title the same way.  Like any good writer, you should take that on board because it clearly isn't reaching your readers the way you want it to.  I suggested you change the title - why not "The Anti-Spam Challenge"?  Then everyone will know what you're trying to do.

  32. Misha profile image63
    Mishaposted 14 years ago

    Hope you feel better Julie smile

    1. Julie-Ann Amos profile image64
      Julie-Ann Amosposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Thanks Misha Sufi and everyone else.  It's been a very long hard pull back to normal walking but I'm just about there.  I just look like a slow walker now - people don't think I either just messed myself or have the strangest walk in creation!

  33. wesleycox profile image71
    wesleycoxposted 14 years ago

    So if I decide to take on the 30 in 30 hub challenge can I do it when I come back from leave?  I leave the 19th of August and get back about the 15th of September.  Is there a cut off date for completion?

    1. Julie-Ann Amos profile image64
      Julie-Ann Amosposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      You sure can.  It's a roll-on roll-off challenge this time around.

      1. wesleycox profile image71
        wesleycoxposted 14 years agoin reply to this

        Super! I'll compile some ideas now then.

  34. profile image0
    PJ_Deneenposted 14 years ago

    Thank you so much for posting this Julie-Ann.  This attitude has been one of the reasons I don't participate in the forums much.  I lean towards treating HubPages as an article writing site, and I don't agree with some that believe that means low quality.

  35. Cam Anju profile image69
    Cam Anjuposted 14 years ago

    Well said dear, bravo! big_smile


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