Gay vs. abnormal

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LailaKposted 12 years ago
Do you find being gay/lesbian a normal aspect of life? How about gay/lesbian marriage? Would you support your best friend if they turned gay/lesbian?
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Do you have a normal sized brain?
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  pisean282311posted 12 years agoin reply to this
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  TIMETRAVELER2posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  People don't "turn" gay...they simply and finally submit to the truth of who they are and then act on that truth. Many pretend to be straight because they fear the way society will treat them, and society generally does not treat them well because they don't follow what people consider to be the "normal" way of life.
  
  The world we live in today is not the world of the past. Back in the day, people hid their homosexuality. Today, many are "right in your face" about it. I think this is where people have problems with it.
  
  It is very difficult for many straight people to "see" gay people holding hands, kissing and even marrying. To them, this is abnormal behavior and is upsetting.
  
  The truth is that gay people have all of the same feelings as straight people. Love is love, no matter what the gender.
  
  I guess the bottom line is this: straight people would be more accepting of homosexual people if they would tone down their overt behaviors. Insisting on being called "married" is offensive to straight people who view marriage as a commitment between a man and a woman. If they would accept some other terminology that would give them all the same rights as married couples but be called something else such as "civil union", I think everybody would be better off.
  
  Gays should accept the fact that they are a minority group and, as such, need to make some compromises so that their lives can be better. Until they are willing to do that, they will be shunned by many, and will suffer in other ways. It's a sad truth, but it is still the truth.
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  wildernessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Absolutely. Gay people must be a little more politically correct in the use of their terminology and desires to be equal.
  
  The Christian bigots of the country have changed and reserved the term "married" to indicate a civil bond between man and woman, with their God giving his approval and gay people have to use something else. By trying to use the same term to mean a civil union (sometimes with their God's approval) they deeply offend those bigots that demand their way is the only way.
  
  Gays must learn that they cannot be equal and that they must kowtow to the straight people in all things, particularly the disgusting idea that two men or two women can actually love each other and wish to make a life together. They are indeed a minority and must understand that they therefore cannot ever be equal to, or accepted by, the mainstream population of Christian bigots. They must learn to control their behavior so as not to offend by using actions the far right has now declared are theirs and theirs alone.
  
  Sorry, a giant thumbs down on this one.
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  TIMETRAVELER2posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Wilderness: For someone who is so quick to condemn others as being bigoted, you're mighty bigoted yourself. Nobody said anything about Gays not being equal and nobody referred to anybody's religious beliefs here. Society is what it is, whether you agree or not. Nobody is asking homosexuals to "kowtow" to anybody, but as with all minorities (of which I am one, by the way) gays need to tread carefully on their way through life. Everybody else has to be politically correct these days, so why should gay people not follow suit?
  
  You can "thumbs down" all you like, but getting in people's faces about their views is not going to fix or change anything. In fact, doing this just causes further irritation and sets back the viewpoints which you, yourself, want to champion.
  
  There will come a time when society as a whole will embrace ALL of our differences, but right now, this is not the case. Until that happens (which I suspect will be many years down the road), all minority groups need to do what they can to protect themselves.
  
  If using a different set of words to assure gays all of the legal rights to which they feel they are entitled as couples will smooth their path, what is the harm?
  
  All societies throughout history have viewed marriage as a commitment between a man and a woman. They have also viewed marriage as the proper way for people to procreate. You are fighting thousands upon thousands of years of standard thinking, and I suspect your chances of winning this battle are slim.
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  kerrygposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "All societies throughout history have viewed marriage as a commitment between a man and a woman."
  
  Not true. Some have viewed (and in some cases still view) marriage as a commitment between a man and women. A few have viewed it as a commitment between a woman and men. And yes, there have been traditional societies that accepted same sex marriages, mainly tribal societies in Africa and North America. I posted some links to ethnographies describing the practice in another recent thread - I'm sure I can dig them back up again if you don't believe me.
  
  So, when you say "all societies throughout history" you really mean our society, and "throughout history" is a bit of a stretch any way you look at it. Marriage laws in the US have changed many times in the last 400 years:
  
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  TIMETRAVELER2posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  This is very interesting, and I thank you for the info. When I posted, I was thinking in terms of heterosexuality in general, not just one man, one woman. Clearly polygamy is accepted in some societies. I also was talking about major societal groups, not minor ones such as African tribes. I can see why those societies might condone homosexual marriages due to the limited number of people they might have in their tribes. And I was not talking here of how laws have changed. This wasn't about laws, it was about general societal views and/or condemnation of certain behaviors. But again, this was interesting info that I hadn't thought about before. Thanks for the post.
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  ++
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  wildernessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, TT2 - you said they are not equal. Right when you propose that they must act differently than their nature, that they must hide their "equality" in the closet and that they must be denied the same rights that others have. Exactly the same way the people used to say that women are weak and stupid - that they need to stay barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen and quite trying to claim equality with the supreme male sex and demanding equal rights with them.
  
  I'm afraid that I'm not very PC myself. They aren't "undocumented immigrants" - they are illegal aliens. They aren't "physically challenged" - they are in a wheelchair, handicapped. They aren't always "less fortunate" - some are just lazy.
  
  It is true these terms can be, and usually should be, modified to the current notion of what is less offensive or obnoxious. But when a group of people decide that they are superior and everyone else must conform to their ideas of propriety, of morality, of right and wrong, it should not be soft pedaled. They need their feelings hurt, they need to recognize and have it shoved down their throat that they are wrong. Sometimes it is best to call an apple and apple, and I won't apologize for doing it. If they are bigots, supreme in their judgement that only their opinion is the right one, then I will use the appropriate term.
  
  Neither will I apologize for naming the single most powerful and active group trying to keep gays in the closet, out of sight. Remember the California vote? Where thousands of Mormons and millions of Mormon dollars poured into the state in an effort to continue the oppression? If it turns out (as it most certainly does) that it is primarily the Christians of this nation fighting equality for a minority, then let it be known. Tell it like it is and don't feel obligated to apologize when you (or I) do so.
  
  These things (bigotry) don't change by speaking softly and tip toeing around the subject so as not to hurt someone's feelings or make them angry. Blacks in the back of the bus - what's the problem? They're still on the bus aren't they? Whites and Blacks can't marry - what's the problem? They can still live together (on the wrong side of the tracks and out of my neighborhood). Black kids go to their own schools - what's the problem? They still go to school, after all. An inferior one, without educated teachers, air conditioning or books, but they're still in school!
  
  Gays, just like blacks, women and all the other minorities in this country (everyone now days) are going to have to fight for their rights. Hiding in the closet and keeping their mouth shut won't get them anything - history has unfortunately shown us all too often that using that tactic in the hopes of getting change actually changes nothing. People have a very nasty propensity for demanding that the rest of the world fit into their own mold and without the willingness to fight that attitude gays will never be seen as a "real" person, deserving of the same things everyone else has.
  
  And that, TT2, is the problem with soft-pedaling the gay marriage thing. Without the rest of the nation forcing it down their throat the bigots of the country will continue to oppress anyone any different. Those minorities they don't like (usually everyone else) are not real people, are not morally correct, need to be stamped on (and stamped hard) to keep them out of right thinking society. We don't need to back off and hope the gays retreat into their closet once more; we need to shout it from the rooftops that such actions as the Christians (and a handful of others, it is true) take to keep them in their place is unacceptable.
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  kerrygposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  +1
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  On a positive note, I propose full acceptance, by society at large, of gay couples having an equal place in society.
  
  Why? Because the union of two persons in love is a great foundation for a successful society. In the case of gay couples, they are not going to ADD more people to the world, which is already overpopulated. The gay couple can, and will be encouraged to if they wish, support and nurture other less fortunate individuals, in particular the children and youth who are otherwise living very difficult, uncomfortable lives, because their own biological families are unable to support them. They can offer support to families which are falling on hard times.
  
  Also, gay couples are well known for their contributions to society in other ways. The work they do, in what ever profession or trade, is usually done really well, often better than many others. With the mutual support they give each other, their lives are often more stable and happier.
  
  So much can be learned from gay people. Ignoring their contributions deprives society of enormous assets which are often wasted.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  -100.
  
  NO you don't "need to shove it down people's throats"
  and
  NO you don't have a right to.
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  Paul Wingertposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "Good Christians" have been shoving their bigoted beliefs down other people's throat for a couple thousand years now and the gays and lesbian community are going through the same struggle as women, blacks and other minorities. Interesting how women out number men in this country and they were given the right to vote less than a 100 years ago.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I prefer to think of it as "You have the right to try and stand in the way and we have the right to try and run you over"
  
  Does that make it easier?
  
  But yes, it has come to the point that we do have to fight for what we see as our rights. We are determined to get them and asking politely hasn't worked. We have the right to not consider our opponents feelings about it as they have failed to consider ours. You don't like political correctness so I'll save you from it.
  
  Those who oppose gay marriage have made it necessary to "shove it down your throat" and the constitutional rights to freedom of speech and religion and the right to assemble and petition has given us the right to do just that.
  
  In short, you told us we couldn't do something and failed to be of a high enough authority to make that decision. As we are winning our fight we are likely to be obnoxious about it too. Human nature and all.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Be there a "like button" somewhere?
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Funny.
  
  If you feel homosexuality or gay rights are being forced upon you, then why do you gravitate towards EVERY forum thread that even remotely addresses one of these topics? I mean, really, ANY forum thread about gay anything and it's 3...2...1...
  
  Why not continue to maintain a presence in a world where you know NO ONE who is gay, so where homosexuality, gay marriage, and gay rights are remote, abstract concepts, like the parliamentary politics of Cambodia, or life forms in distant galaxies?
  
  Is it because you find it convenient to project condemnation on other people's sins when you don't want to face your own?
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  becauseiliveposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I COULD NOT agree more.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I think it's a promotion that runs along side God's "Save 10 souls against their will and receive a free set of steak knives" referral program.
  
  This one is " 20 cents off each gallon of gasoline for every 10 times you state your moral superiority"
  
  The Religious Right is offended for some reason. They don't see that the gay rights movement is just trying to include them. After all they've been telling gays that they are going to hell for so long that we just decided to be friendly and tell them that they could go there too.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  Says the man who, like clockwork, jumps on my posts and tries to escalate things to a personal-insult level almost EVERY single time.
  
  Just so you know, I don't have a problem with gays, unless and until they try to make it my problem. And some of them, in particular liberal activists, have done so, on a National level even. They have a problem and I pray they find the right way to deal with that temptation. I just have a problem with them or you or anyone trying to force everyone else to sanction it morally and legally. Many people understand that, including many gays. But you don't, I'm sure, as is painfully evident in your words.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I've said that when I notice your bigoted posts related to homosexuality, I will happily chime in. I'm not sure why your remarks should be respected when there's nothing even remotely respectful about them.
  
  Yes, the fact that gays and lesbians are enjoying their lives honestly somewhere on US soil bothers you. You even admit they're not shoving anything down your throat, but simply living their lives in a way that you don't understand or approve of.
  
  Keep on saying that loud and often, Brenda. You're an unwitting proponent of the gay rights movement.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You should pay attention to your own words. LOL.
  Basically, you're saying that if conservatives don't sit down and shut up about this issue, then you vengefully escalate the push for "gay rights", which includes personally insulting conservatives.
  Hey, you're the one who said it, not me. Because, no, I'm not a proponent of the gay rights movement, unwittingly nor otherwise. And no, I didn't admit to any such thing as you said. What I said was that I don't have a problem, but they do. You do.
  Anyone has the right to refuse to allow someone else's views and/or lifestyle to interfere with what everyone knows is right. Making something into law, especially based on the lie that it's parallel to human rights, is interfering with what's right on a National level. And yes indeed this is MY Country just like it's every other citizen's Country. And I'm fully aware (like I've told you before) that there are many "gays" who do realize they have a problem, and they don't try to make it everyone else's problem by inserting it into the Laws of our Land. You cannot speak for everyone who's trapped into that temptation of homosexuality. That's what liberal activists do, they take a problem that should be an individual problem and they make an example of it, trying to get everyone to condone it. Forcing it. That's bullying. Which is actually against the Law. Just because there's not enough State and National leaders who've got the guts to take a stand on this doesn't mean all individuals are gutless. And just because there's not enough people in the limelight who are fearless before the Great Manipulator Obama doesn't mean we don't exist.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Brenda Durham, you are so wrapped up in your own little crusade that you cannot see what you write applies equally, if not more so, to yourself! Go look in the mirror! Say this quote to yourself, many times. Say it until it sticks in your little, prejudiced, illogical mind!
  
  "That's what liberal activists do, they take a problem that should be an individual problem and they make an example of it, trying to get everyone to condone it. Forcing it. That's bullying. Which is actually against the Law."
  
  Get off your pedestal, down from your pulpit. Throw your fundamentalist, hateful, self-righteous attitude out of the window, burn it, or somehow rid the world of your stuff. You, a Conservative Activist, are just as guilty of bullying and forcing others to do your bidding.
  
  Homosexual persons are no threat to you and your comfortable little life. We actually know what real Love is. It sounds like your version is extremely distorted. Do some meditation and discover what real Love is for yourself. Make a friendship with a gay girl or guy. Build some concord in life, instead of discord.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  First of all, you don't know what my life is like, whether or not I have friends who are caught up in the temptation of homosexuality, and I'm not about to share it with you even if I do have. Because you're bent on insulting and personally labeling me (and probably anyone else) who speaks conservatively on this issue.
  It's been said that the best defense is a strong offense. You've taken that miles too far. You might ask yourself what it is that you're afraid of, zero in on that factor, and then and only then will you begin to sort out the problem within yourself.
  I can spell it out in one word----heterophobia.
  No charge for the diagnosis. It was simple from reading your mean rant, a typical self-centered offensive mindset of people who latch onto liberal activism. Notice I didn't say all people who struggle with temptation; I said typical of those who engage in liberal activism. Because many people do struggle with temptation. It's upsetting to see activists close that window of opportunity for them.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Your use of the word "temptation" says it all. You are hung up on the idea of a "god" who will judge you on "Judgment Day."
  
  With this as your weapon, using your interpretations of the Bible as your backup, you chose to make judgment of everyone who does not accept your version of right and wrong.
  
  I do not accept the existence of such a god. Humans make the judgments, with all the human misunderstandings and lack of true knowledge to continually make errors of judgment.
  
  However, I do acknowledge a wonderful, beautiful world, in which many people are trying their best to "make a go of it." The majority of them don't give a second thought to your ultra-conservative views, thankfully. (I don't know who to thank, of course, because there is no "person" there to thank. Let's all have ownership of our successes, and help our neighbours to achieve the same.)
  
  In my view, the less we have of fanaticism and fundamental blindness, the better.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ah, thank God for a much nicer post than your last one! See, I do know Who to thank!
  Well, at least you got the major point right---the concept is temptation. Thank you for taking notice. You, because I do reckon you decided to take note.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Does that make you the Temptress?
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Not even funny or anywhere near correct.
  
  Did you lose your initial train of thought? Drat! I thought you had it goin' on there for a minute.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I hate that temptation that I felt to actually love the person I fell in love with.
  
  If I would have just prayed hard enough I TOO could have gone through life a bitter ugly old woman with no warmth or human compassion for anyone. I could have had the self assurance that my self-imposed misery was like sweet smoke of animal sacrifice for the twisted sadistic God that exists in my mind and just happens to believe exactly as I do and is as psychologically damaged as me (Made in his image you know).
  
  Alas, I chose happiness. My life is full of joy and laughter. Because I actually know how to love, I can love almost everyone. My God... who is as happy and loving as I am (Made in his image you know) rejoices in my happiness. He has no tolerance for those who would choose to destroy love in his name.
  
  I'm glad I gave in to temptation.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It's never too late to give up love and happiness in favor of schadenfreude and sanctimony, Melissa. Remember, that what awaits each saved soul in Heaven is eternal bliss, divine rest, and $10,000 cash.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, but the neighbors suck.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  True, but fences in Heaven are 12 feet tall, made of reinforced steel, and topped with razor wire.
  
  (Reminds me of an non-PC joke I heard that I won't repeat here!)
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  *Smiles* The evangelicals would break through somehow. They would smell same-sex attractions and shamble forth like zombies... They'd pile on top of each other until they cleared the fence. The only way you can take them out when they swarm like that is to distract them with a Muslim. And all the Muslims will be busy with virgins.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Jewish tradition says that in the messianic age, Torah will be abolished but only the book of Esther will remain (and its associated holiday, Purim, will be the only holiday celebrated), and some rabbis have interpreted that to mean that Jews will still have adversaries...even after the messiah has come. So I guess your afterlife zombies still harassing gay people aren't part of an implausible scenario.
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  maddartistposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't understand why you refer to gays an people "struggling with the temptation of homosexuality" I mean, I'm sure as hell not "struggling" with anything. It seems like when i was younger and in denial about my own homosexuality and trying to force myself to be straight I was more struggling with the temptation of heterosexuality.
  And if someone is gay and rallying for equal rights, it doesn't make them "heterophobic." I feel very strongly about this issue, yet i have many hetero friends. My boyfriend's best friend is straight and he loves my boyfriend like a brother. They are as close as they would be if he was straight. I guess it's a good thing you didn't charge for that "heterophobia" diagnosis
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  maddartistposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  " NO you don't "need to shove it down people's throats"
  and
  NO you don't have a right to. "
  
  Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black.
  and the "-100" was pretty cute.
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  TIMETRAVELER2posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Wilderness: Boy, you sure read a lot into what people say! You need to read my original post again! I did not say gays were unequal and I never said I wanted them to "stay in the closet". I did say that, as with myself, they are a minority group and as such should do whatever it takes to protect themselves. People like you who push them to "get in people's faces" are also the ones urging themselves to put themselves in harm's way considering how things are in today's society. I've read too many stories about gay bashing, beating and killings. If they can avoid this by simply changing the wording for what we call marriage, I don't think that would be considered "soft pedaling"...I think it would be the politically correct thing for them to do...which, by the way, is nothing more than many of us out here have to do every single day.
  
  By not treading carefully yourself, you give the impression of being a person who is angling for a fight on many fronts, and I suspect you will get one some day...and it won't be pretty. Just because you want that, it doesn't mean that's what the world wants or needs. Isn't there enough pain in the world? Do you feel the need to cause more? You are not protecting gays, blacks, women or any other group...you are using them so that you can have a bully pulpit and frankly, I don't think much of it.
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  We allow freedom of Religion. now allow others to live and let liver have things in their face or shove down their throat, and I mean in words.
  
  Have I said, too much?
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  amfree4aIIposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  My son went from a predominantly caucasian high school in Pennsylvania (one of the best in the state academically) to a high school in San Diego which was a mishmash of black/asian/white. The contrast between these two schools could not have been greater. The S.D. school graded on a sliding scale. When my son came to the school, it affected the grades of the dumber students because his grades were so high. He would come home every day telling me what went on. In the cafeteria, the black students would go directly to the head of the line, every day, even if dozens were waiting before them. Rap music blared from speakers during lunch. These same students would cross a busy highway outside the school, making the traffic stop. They would board a public bus to go home with a monthly bus pass then hand it out the window to another student to use. Essentially, my son learned how to cheat in that school and not much else. The teachers spent most of the class time waking up sleeping students (by banging a ruler down on their desks) and being interrupted by cell phones vibrating across desks inside purses (cell phones were, of course, banned). One teacher had the good sense to mock the huge comb sticking out of the hair of one of the dumber students. The gym teacher was a 60-year old black woman who did jumping jacks bra-less. I withdrew my son from this school within a few months. I will forever rue the day I removed him from his academically superior school in Pa. and subjected him to a mixed school environment. I have asked his forgiveness.
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  viryaboposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  +1
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  This kind of compromising doesn't lead to authentic change.
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Live and let live dose not lead to change, why not?
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I was specifically referring to where Time Traveller said:
  
  "...Today, many are "right in your face" about it. I think this is where people have problems with it.
  
  It is very difficult for many straight people to "see" gay people holding hands, kissing and even marrying. To them, this is abnormal behavior and is upsetting.
  
  The truth is that gay people have all of the same feelings as straight people. Love is love, no matter what the gender.
  
  I guess the bottom line is this: straight people would be more accepting of homosexual people if they would tone down their overt behaviors..."
  
  That's like black people having to straighten their hair, dress like their white counterparts, talk like them, be EXACTLY how they are in order to be liked by them. THAT is not true acceptance. As a black woman, I should be able to wear my hair natural, choose a different style of dress, etc., and be accepted into my society, even though I am "different." I shouldn't have to straighten my hair or dress as they see as appropriate, or act in a way they deem as appropriate, just because otherwise they would be "uncomfortable." That is not true acceptance. (And yet we do it every day... Anyway, I digress)
  
  Gay people should not have to hide their affection just because it makes some straight people "uncomfortable." Good, they need to be a little of uncomfortable and finally come to realize why they need to get over it.
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  agree
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  Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "...Today, many are "right in your face" about it. I think this is where people have problems with it.
  
  I see a double-standard here. When a straight couple walk down the street holding hands, nobody has a problem with it, but if a gay couple were to do the same thing, a lot of folks would freak right out, and say that the gay couple shouldn't be so "in your face" about their relationship.
  
  If a straight couple share a kiss at a restaurant, nobody even blinks, but if a gay couple were to share a kiss at a restaurant--and I'm not talking about tonsil hockey or anything, just a quick "hello kiss"--lots of people would freak right out, and say that the gay couple shouldn't be so "in your face" about their relationship.
  
  Well, if the strait couple can be in-your-face, why should the gay couple have to hide their relationship? If you're uncomfortable seeing that kind of thing, then you can bloody well look at something else!
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  WELL SAID !
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I agree. A person can look at something else. They could even leave the restaurant and find a different restaurant where they don't have to tolerate perversion.
  
  Quite a slippery slope in the making. But if that's how it has to be, perhaps it will be.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Those who don't want to tolerate perversion can even choose to leave Internet forums where it is tolerated (and encouraged!) and go elsewhere, The power is in their hands. If they stay, it's proof that they not only tolerate perversion, but are drawn to it.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  There's so much truth to that statement...
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But, livelonger, then no one would ever attempt to teach you not to stalk personally and insult everyone who publicly speaks out against homosexuality, now would they?
  
  P.S. Your last statement is blatantly false. So, I guess no one ever taught you how to not lie either.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Disagreeing with an opinion does not mean that the person is lying. Or else I would consider pretty much everything you've ever said here on the forums a lie.
  
  You are coming close to the line of personal attacks Brenda.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Heck, if disagreement = lying, then there isn't a single honest person on the Hub Pages forums.
  
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  LMAO! Except for me, right? 'cause I read the bible so my disagreements come from God himself. Can't argue with the big guy.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Um. No I'm not. livelonger said that anyone who stays (here) is proof that they tolerate and are drawn to homosexuality. I told him that's not true. Because I stay here, and I am not drawn to homosexuality.
  Now, if you want to accuse me of "attacking" anyone, you should also accuse livelonger of "attacking". Plus, with him being a member of the HubPages team, he could very well be considered "very close" to bullying a long-time Hubber by suggesting that they (I) leave this site, when in fact I was talking about, and responding to, a general issue about gay activity in public places like restaurants.
  
  HE brought up this site, trying to compare it to that.
  
  So you nor anyone can say that I made it personal before Jason did, nor that I wasn't exercising my freedom of speech which every U.S. citizen has a right to.
  As a HubTeam member, it is his responsibility to avoid harrassing a Hubber.
  
  I don't have a problem with the HubPages team in general. I do have a problem with Jason constantly trying to bully conservatives (me, for one) into leaving this site which he is a HubPages Team member of. Is the "power" really in the hands of the Hubbers? Or is it in the hands of Jason, who openly follows people around condemning them when they speak conservative things? Or perhaps the Team would like to post a disclaimer at entry that they uphold gays bullying conservatives. That might get me to leave. The ideaology of what this site stands for (if it stands for that) would be clear if they did that. And Jason (and you and many gay-agenda-activists) might be very happy.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It is proof to him so it isn't lying. You don't get to decided what is proof to another person.
  
  And he didn't suggest you should leave the site, he said you were free to if the conversation offended you. And you are free to Brenda.
  
  The distinction you are failing to make is that Jason isn't condemning you... LIVELONGER is DISAGREEING with you. I was the first to stand up for you when a poster called you a personal name, however I will continue to attack your ideas. The opinion is not the person. You take things too personally Brenda.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I take power-play bullying personally when directed at me, yes. There's not that wide of a distinction between the two.
  He (and you) are also free to leave the conversation if you disagree with conservative views.
  
  And while I appreciate your taking up for me when someone called me that peronally-insulting name, it was simply what any person should've done. And indeed I think there were others who did so.
  
  And if you were going to treat both of us as simply Hubbers in a conversation, you should never have voiced the "personal attack" line that your perception wanted to see.
  
  So, perhaps you should stay out of those conversations.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But we don't have to leave the conversation Brenda that's the point. I feel no need to leave the forums because even though I'm constantly disagreed with, I see it as other people expressing their opinions rather than them bullying me. It's not bullying to debate. There is no power play with disagreeing with you.
  
  It's like this Brenda, Jason is an admin. When he is acting in the role of admin he represents Hubpages. I have never seen him enter a debate in that role. When he is posting as LL, he is posting in the role of a forum member and is representing only himself.
  
  Like if you were working at the post office. It would be extremely improper for you to be having political conversations. However, on your own time you would be free to have whatever beliefs you like and discuss them at length.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Then perhaps you could caution your friend livelonger that his numerous references to conservatives leaving this site are being perceived as bullying, since it is common knowledge what his real persona is, and that he should've never taken a discussion about restaurants into a discussion about this site, if indeed he wants to separate his screen personality form his HubTeam one.
  
  And beyond that, I end this conversation with you. Because you are not Jason, nor livelonger, as far as I know anyway. LOL.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Brenda, the perception of bullying seems to be yours alone. As I personally don't see it as bullying- the consensus count is now 1 to 1. Not enough, even by government standards- to make you a majority. I'm sorry you feel that way but they are really your emotions to deal with. LL's freedom of speech is not reliant on not offending you.
  
  As his L.L. persona is really him, he can honestly say whatever he wants within site TOS. If you feel he has violated TOS then there is a little report button at the bottom of his post.
  
  I would like to point out that if I followed your logic, I would believe that those in public office should not be able to go to church on their days off... because it would be government endorsing a specific religion.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well said. Brenda has been making these kinds of accusations for years that I'm bullying her, by pointing out the complete failure of logic and obvious hypocrisy in many of her posts here ranting about gay people. She doesn't like her rants to be challenged, and when they are, she interprets them as personal attacks (but, ironically, gay people are not supposed to take personally her constant references to gay people as "perversion").
  
  Oh, and Brenda: please, do stay in these forums and continue to discuss your favorite perversion with us. Like I've said before, it's through no action of mine that you're drawn to just about every forum discussion about homosexuality.
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  AEvansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Brenda,
  
  You should not be calling the kettle black. You at times can be as naughty as the next. You should really not wind yourself up so tightly and move to a conversation in the forums that can be more positive.
  
  I am conservative too; But it does not mean that I mud sling nor offend. That is not what God wishes for me to do. We are supposed to turn the other cheek and we are also supposed to act like Christians. Hatred and strife are a sin, so take a breath and find another thread that fits your character. Walk away.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Um...I already had. Your post is untimely and unnecessary. Although I'm sure (well, I think perhaps) you meant well. But indeed you should perhaps delete it? Because it contains stuff that is mistaken and rather accusatory. Especially the part where you threw the "hatred" word around.
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  amymarie_5posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Nobody can magically turn gay. You are born that way. I do not judge people and choose my friends based on their character not on sexual orientation.
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  AEvansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ummmm.... I have friends who are a part of the LGBT so none of it bothers me at all. As for them turning gay, there are many who are born that way. I don't care what anyone feels about the truth but God did not make all of us heterosexual no matter what anyone believes. He did make all of us in his own image; therefore all of us are brothers and sisters. Everyone is entitled to happiness and joy. I don't even know why we have this discussion, but I did have to put my 2 cents in.
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  relacheposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, yes and yes.
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  KJAB911posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Do you find being gay/lesbian a normal aspect of life? (Yes, definitely. I find it completely natural and normal.)
  
  How about gay/lesbian marriage? (Of course. I find it as normal as I find straight marriages. There's absolutely nothing abnormal about it.)
  
  Would you support your best friend if they turned gay/lesbian? (ABSOLUTELY! Being lesbian myself, I would definitely support any my friends that turn gay/lesbian. And I have many friends that support me so of course I would support them in return.)
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  kimberlyslyricsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  seriously? um ...............
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  FatFreddysCatposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  In the immortal words of Ted Nugent, "You can f*** buffalo for all I care, just don't make me watch."
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  Greek Oneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  you mean like Scott Norwood did?
  
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  Dave Mathewsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The heading is totally misleading "Gay vs. abnormal" Gay is abnormal so how does it verse itself? That would be like satan doing battle against himself or one of his followers.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Being homosexual is perfectly normal, dear. We would not ask you to try it, you would probably not be a good lover.
  
  The insistence on "Husband, Wife and two Kids" setup is pretty abnormal. So is sitting in a church every Sunday morning, gawking at an individual preaching at you, about how you have been a naughty boy/girl. This is handing all your responsibilities to "someone up there," so you can become lazy.
  
  And this business of "being forgiven" by Him up there.... very convenient, so you can do what you damn well like all week, then go and get cleansed, ready to have fun again for the next week.
  
  My connection with the wonderful world, every day, and taking responsibility for my own actions, stops with me. No god or jesus involved, thank you.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  *************
  
  It's very rude to call anyone abnormal. You've just insulted many people. Are you happy with yourself?
  
  Are you abnormal?
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Why not?
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  SidKempposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes.
  I actually find it sad when anyone makes an issue of another person's preferences. Why is a preference for sex with people of the same sex, or the opposite sex, more important than a preference for, say, broccoli or carrots?
  
  Wouldn't we all be better off just accepting that different people have different preferences?
  
  I seek not to judge. I do evaluate, but in terms of whether people cause harm. Hatred, violence, and thoughtless acts that injure ourselves and others are reasons for compassion, and for distancing ourselves to ensure safety from such behaviors.
  
  Other than that, to each his/her own taste!
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  nightwork4posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  i don't even know what normal is. do i find people obsessed with celebrities normal, do i find people who think every thing is a mental illness normal, do i find religious nuts normal. what is normal. as for gays, it's not a choice, it's how they are. they aren't hurting anyone, they aren't pushing their views on anyone so i guess they are as "normal" as anyone could be.
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The Writers Dogposted 12 years ago
Being GLBTI is as normal as being "straight". It is the way you are born. You do not wake up one morning and decide "I am gay". I have GLBTI friends and "straight" friends. I do not think of them as one or the other, they are all my friends and they are all normal.
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Paul Wingertposted 12 years ago
There are over 400 animal species,including humans, where homosexuality exists. So yes, being gay/lesbian is normal.
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  LailaKposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But if it was normal, why do you think individuals have to go out of their way to have kids?
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Because many of us have been programmed or hard wired to be breeders and go out and over populate and pollute the earth, unless we slow down the over breeders system, in which we have to 1/3 since the 1950s
  
  A lot more work has to be done, lets all act a little more gay
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  Paul Wingertposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Homosexuality is suppose to be natures way of population growth. I can't imagine what the US population will be in 100 years. I'm willing to bet that we will enact a "one child only" law like China.
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I have much more faith in people than in Religion or Politicization to slow down our over breeding ways for the sake of the greater good.
  
  Imagine billions of Americans that would be Sodom and Gomorrah X 100
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  maddartistposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  See, homosexuality in society just makes sense. It seems without gays, overpopulation would be even more of a problem, as well as the number of orphans needing a home.
  
  PS. love your Gomez/John Astin avatar
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Make sense to me and to most earthling on the planet
  
  Let's make some posters
  
  Make love, not babies
  Make love, not debt
  Make love, not Religious wars
  
  I don't know, if that last one will fly
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  kerrygposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Evolution supports survival of the species, not survival of the individual.
  
  In a species such as ours that requires such intensive and extended care during childhood, it makes sense to have some non-breeding individuals hanging around to help spread the workload. This is likely why human women experience menopause (we're the only ape and one of the only species of any kind that does) and may also contribute to the prevalence of homosexuality.
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  amymarie_5posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Interesting.
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  Paul Wingertposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Chimps, rhesus monkeys, pilot whales, elephants, and some whale experience menopause.
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  SeamlessDestiny03posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Um hi, not every straight man and straight woman is fertile. And, TECHNICALLY, diseases were natures way of eliminating overpopulation. Research that, you may surprise yourself. We have tried to cure every disease out there. We save a lot of severely disabled infants. We keep people on life support when they would be completely dead without it.
  
  Now, please, I am not turning this into a human rights issue/abortion/anything in those categories; I am keeping my beliefs personal since this isn't about that. But really, procreation is a weak argument. If EVERYONE could procreate forever, we'd have a whole other problem. Life, birth, death, infertility, disease, no desire to have kids, homosexuality- everything is connected and keeps the world going. What if nobody died? What id menopause wasn't real? What if EVERY couple wanted to biologically have children? If we take out any of these elements, we are left with a problem. Orphans would have a harder time finding homes. The world would overpopulate.
  
  Food for thought
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  nightwork4posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  with that train of thought , does that mean people who can't have kids are abnormal?
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The Writers Dogposted 12 years ago
"When I am I going to be a grandmother/father?"
"When are you going to meet a nice boy/girl and settle down?"
"All of your brothers/sisters are married and having children."
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prettydarkhorseposted 12 years ago
When you choose friends it is best to choose them based on the content of their hearts and not because of their color, orientation etc. You should be ready to support them as well specially in their pursuit of happiness - like being married.
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SomewayOuttaHereposted 12 years ago
to the OP..yes to all 3....q3 is a bit confusing for me in relation to 'turning gay'..i don't think folks 'turn gay'...they are just g/l...just being who they are...
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suziesunshine3posted 12 years ago
i would def support any of my friends no matter what sexuality they are after all they are my friends because of who they are not because of there sexual preference!!!!
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Kangaroo_Jaseposted 12 years ago
People will continue to fail when its more important to worry about what country they came from, what level of education they have, what their financial standing is, what colour there skin is, what god they believe in or religion they practice or don't believe in a god or follow a religion and which sex/s they prefer to fall in love with.
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Greek Oneposted 12 years ago
can we all agree that many lesbians are very pretty!?!?
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  LMAO. Nope. Sorry.
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  BethDWposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well that's offensive...how would you like it if someone told you that you weren't/could never be pretty, without even meeting you, just because you are a member of some minority group? That whole stereotype of the bull-dyke with the crew cut and combat boots is b.s. concocted by some small-minded straight men who want to feel better about being rejected by an entire segment of the female population that has no use for them... Most of the lesbian women I know are completely stunning.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ummm... I think you are confused about something I've posted. I happen to think I'm kinda pretty myself... and I feel the same way about the women I have dated.
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  BethDWposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Greek One: "can we all agree that many lesbians are very pretty!?!?"
  Directly below...
  MelissaBarret: "LMAO. Nope. Sorry."
  
  Thus the source of my confusion...lol.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  *grins* I left my sarcasm font off that day.
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  BethDWposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Haha. Gotcha.
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  SeamlessDestiny03posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I think she was just jokin :-P
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You only have four, and 4 weeks have passed, Brenda. Have you run out yet?
  
  Beth, I have enjoyed reading the recent posts here. There is a good mixture of laughter and seriousness.
  
  The very serious posts about rejection, etc., have our attention and our compassion, I feel. Not to be derided at all.
  
  The humour is needed very much to lighten our outlook on life. Thank "god," if I am allowed to drop my guard for a moment(!), for us gays who are past masters at self-flagellation.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I bet you really would like to know, wouldn't ya?!
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  SeamlessDestiny03posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  HEY! Some of us work out, have long hair, and wear make up!!!
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  BethDWposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Amen.
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mythbusterposted 12 years ago
Gender, family structure, marriage, many aspects of "race," and many aspects of rules within religion - these are all social constructions.

Currently, there is a strong argument for straight couples/married parents and same-race children as being "the norm," and "the best" family/marriage situation - however, this is an ARGUMENT, not a truth.

Paul Wingert made a strong point early on in this thread:

"There are over 400 animal species,including humans, where homosexuality exists. So yes, being gay/lesbian is normal."
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  Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Every argument which could be used to justify homosexuality could also be used by a pedophile to justify pedophilia....and it already is. Is there a line which shouldn't be crossed, or do we have to make one?
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Are you kidding?
  
  Children can not consent to sexual relationships. Adults can.
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  TIMETRAVELER2posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=IS04C02: This is a link to an eye opening article from the Family Research Council that clearly points out the fallacies in the arguments in favor of gay marriage. Everybody contributing to this post should read it. The statements made within it are based on actual research. I'm going to make sure everybody I know sees it so that we can bring this issue back to reality.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  A hate group recognized by the SPLC:
  http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/i … ch-council
  
  It's not "actual research" unless it survives the rigor of peer review. Naturally, their pseudoscientific propaganda hasn't.
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Here something from that SPLC
  “One of the primary goals of the homosexual rights movement is to abolish all age of consent laws and to eventually recognize pedophiles as the ‘prophets of a new sexual order.’”
  
  --1999 FRC pamphlet, Homosexual Activists Work to Normalize Sex with Boys.
  
  I have met a lot of gays in my line of work and never heard of Homosexual who embodies a deep-seated hatred against true religion or acted like a pedophile.
  
  There are million cases of US Clergyman molesting children. In which I have more respect for a gay dog or if someone who wants to marry their dog
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Druid Dude, we DON'T use the same argument. It is not logical to do so. It does not have any sense to connect the two, homosexuality and pedophilia. With respect to your personal feelings about homosexuality, if you have a problem with it, but the two are not even connected in reality.
  
  Being homosexual does not mean in any way that he/she is attracted to or a danger to children. Of course it does not This idea might be uppermost in the minds of ignorant, prejudiced individuals who know nothing of the facts, and only rely on here-say obtained from mates.
  
  From what I have read, most cases of child molestation occur with the involvement of close family members, and are perpetrated by heterosexual persons on their own children or nephews/nieces.
  
  I have known gay couples who have lived full and beautifully loving lives for many years. The longest I can recall lived for 45 years before the older partner passed away. I have also known children within these partnerships grow up to be integrated, sensible, sociable and heterosexual adults. This is the NORMAL situation with families of same-gender couples.
  
  Why? Because being gay is NOT infectious! We are human. Does that surprise anyone?
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  SeamlessDestiny03posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I want to play devils advocate a little bit here. But read my ENTIRE post before criticizing. PS, link doesn't work I will try to keep this short and concise, as now I want to write a hub about it.
  
  In many ways, I feel that ALL attraction falls under the same category. Some people are attracted to much older people, some children, some of the same sex, some family members, etc. HOWEVER, not all of these relationships work. Humans are selfish in nature: I watched a special that interviewed pedophiles and actually learned a lot. From what I saw, these (mostly men) showed sincere affection towards their (for sake of this interview) victims. To them, their feelings are valid. A child, however, is underdeveloped and not mentally fit to have relations with their elders. This is why these relationships cannot be allowed. Two members of the same family will genetically create child who is very very likely to be disabled. That is why these relationships are illegal in most places, but remember, were once very legal and OK. As society changes, opinions do, too.
  
  Conclusion: Droid, yes, your argument is valid to the very basics only. Realistically and technically speaking though, a homosexual relationship is consensual between two mature adults. A pedophile based one is not.
  
  Oh, shit. I just contradicted myself. Well, kind of. I guess it depends on what perspective you take. I stated two.
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  kimberlyslyricsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  +1
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bbnixposted 12 years ago
I cannot understand why we can't let people live their own lives as they see fit. What is so compelling about interfering with anyone's personal decisions and who or what gender they love and/or choose to live their lives with.

Come on people, how about we focus on violence, abuse, real tragedies each and every day. Does everybody know that an abused and traumatized woman has to wait up to two years to get real viable help in Canada?

Does everybody know that a poor person in the states is relegated to simply die for lack of much needed care? Does

Anyone know that if a woman has a child tragically die before the birth, that her only alternative is to go to an abortion clinic and too often be derided while simply going in the door by some insensitive group of people who know nothing of her reason for being there? What about the incalculable starving children, and people in the world....

How about a cause that makes sense?
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  kimberlyslyricsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  +11111111111
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kimberlyslyricsposted 12 years ago
I live in Canada, same sex marriage is not only legal but accepted. It is of no topic to discuss and no hate or protests source their weddings.

Proof that it works and people can live as they choose while we all mind our own business
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  bbnixposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Damned if I don't end up being Canadian, eh...now if only I can import my So Cal beaches..cause I'll sure as hell bringing my So Cal laid back attitude...
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Woman Of Courageposted 12 years ago
Being a homosexual and a gay marriage is not a normal aspect of life. If my best friend turned gay, I will still love them, but I will not support their decision.
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  Paul Wingertposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Who said homosexuality is a choice?
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  At one time, my whole family was against me choosing to be an artist, now they think that is the best thing about me. Imagine when a homosexual makes an honest commitment and being gay and happy for the rest of their lives, let alone most being born that way
  
  I know being Religious would make me unhappy for the rest of my life, it would put a huge downer on live and let live attitude or to unlimited thinking and getting along with a friendlier world
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  SeamlessDestiny03posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah. Fact in hand, homosexuality is NOT a choice. And until you can say you "tried" being gay, you will never understand that. If you are religious, I will acknowledge (though respectfully disagree with) your CHOICE to follow your faith. I have a mother who loves me dearly, but cannot accept that her only daughter is gay. It hurts our relationship and has damaged it beyond repair. Its very hard to love someone and not support them.
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  BethDWposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You no more choose to be gay than you 'choose' to have brown eyes, or be 6 feet tall, or female, or whatever. I have two evangelical Christian parents, and my entire family/friend base is EXTREMELY religious. I lost much of my support system when I came out, and when I was a teenager, had I had the choice, I would have 'chosen' to be straight in a second. But I am who I am. The perpetuation of the idea that people can 'choose' who they are attracted to is extremely damaging and dangerous, and is part of the reason there are so many gay youth struggling with depression and other forms of mental illness.
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Only my brother is left in our original Family and he is a pastor. Ever since I challenged him about some negative quotes from the Bible, he most often ignore me for years now, and it hurts sometimes, if I were gay it would be worst,
  Growing up we were good friends and talked freely all the time. Today I miss him because of his processed obsession
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Greek Oneposted 12 years ago
What exactly is 'abnormal'? Most of the religious people in the world, by numbers alone, are not Christian. Does that make me abnormal?
There are more men in the world then women.. does that make women 'abnormal'?
I don't find any virtue in simply being 'normal'..or in being in the majority.

Is being gay a choice and something that is not 'natural'. I dont think being gay is a choice, but even if it was, if a person willingly and freely made such a choice, it can be said that it is in their 'nature' at that point in their life to so choose, ie it was 'natural' for them to do so.

Is being gay immoral or against my religion? Well, if it is, that of course is irrelevant to how others choose to live their lives. Furthermore, many heterosexual people act and behave in ways that are far more offensive to my religious perspective. Hell, go to any straight nightclub on a given Saturday night and you will find debauchery and outward displays of sexuality on par with anything else you can find.

Even if I was morally repulsed by homosexuality, refuse to cast the first stone..especially when so many other stone-worthy candidates can be found from within my own heterosexual commuinity
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  prettydarkhorseposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  knowledgeable and sensitive - au courant!! The Greek is the One!
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  Greek Oneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  did you just call me a coconut?
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  Dave Mathewsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  if the shoe fit?
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  kimberlyslyricsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  which shoe?
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  prettydarkhorseposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  it is a wonder tree Greek One!
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I always kinda thought you're comfortable being lukewarm.
  Now I know.
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  Greek Oneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Madam, I live in Canada...
  
  I am never any type of warm
  
  .. and I have never even met Luke, so I don't even know if he is cute
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Luke?
  ...
  Who cares what he looked like?
  He wrote God-inspired words. I bet you know where to find 'em.
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  Greek Oneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I sure do. In fact, some parts of Luke seem relevant regarding this discussion..
  
  6:37 Don't judge,And you won't be judged. Don't condemn, And you won't be condemned.
  
  6:39 He spoke a parable to them. "Can the blind guide the blind? Won't they both fall into a pit?
  6:40 disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone when he is fully trained will be like his teacher.
  6:41 Why do you see the speck of chaff that is in your brother's eye, but don't consider the beam that is in your own eye?
  6:42 Or how can you tell your brother, 'Brother, let me remove the speck of chaff that is in your eye,' when you yourself don't see the beam that is in your own eye? You hypocrite! First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck of chaff that is in your brother's eye
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You've skipped the large portion and picked just a few.
  But at least you're on the road to picking a side! That's commendable, really. At least there's a fire kindled perhaps. Now isn't that much better than straddling the fence?! Not as happy-inspiring, but catalytic and challenging, making the choices much clearer.
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  Greek Oneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Picking a side? What are the choices?
  
  If it is a question of whether or not it is right to call people 'abnormal' based on their sexual orientation, then decency and my Christian faith mandate that I pick the side that says 'no'
  
  Is it whether homosexuals should be allowed to get married in a civil ceremony and receive the same rights under law as heterosexuals, then my belief in freedom and equality make me side with those who believe in liberty.
  
  Is it a question of what God will do to homosexuals and their right to marry. I defer to God, as I am not privy to His judgement.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Those aren't the choices at all. Those are based on secularism.
  My intention wasn't to make you mad nor to offend you, but neither was it to tickle your ears. It was to prick your conscience, to challenge you to consider the choices given to you in the Bible, since you've espoused to believe in it ever since before I met you. Who else has had the nerve or the call to challenge you about the fire in your belly (or the lack thereof)?
  Alas, by your response I deduce you may be a bit "blinded" for a while, like Saul was. But go to Revelation 3: 13--through-22. And maybe you'll ultimately see how the apathetic Saul become Paul a disciple of Christ's with a fervor for the gift of rightly dividing the Word of God.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Brenda, all the time you fall back on your interpretations of texts from the bible, you will be guilty of fuelling the fire which burns and beats and kills homosexual people!
  
  Even as we read this, young people are being but to death in Iraq, for suspicions that they are gay! Young teenagers! People interpret their "holy" book with the same sort of judgemental self-righteousness and fear of a god's punishment. Your judgements are as evil as they come. This goes for all those like you. You seem to be so heavenly-minded (i.e. scripture-minded), that you risk the possibility of being no earthly good.
  
  Now turn what I write here around and again use your useless texts to justify your opinions!
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well, I stand royally "chewed-out", don't I?
  Did I deserve it? No. But I've taken due note of it.
  
  I'm sorry, but that's all I'm gonna reply to you personally right now. Because my prophecy wasn't for you. It was for Greek One.
  If you'd like yours, you'll have to wait 'til I or some other Christian receives one and until you're in a position to receive it.
  
  What I can advise you is this----if you're so concerned about youngsters being killed in Iraq, go there and set up your political activism, where it might actually have validity as human rights. Because in the United States where the government does NOT kill anyone for their sexual choices, it's moot.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't need your advice, thank you Brenda. Only your love as a fellow human being - not as someone who is superior to me by virtue of your acclaimed belief in a book.
  
  All it takes is for me to say to you: "Brenda, I acknowledge your choices to believe and accept what you feel led to. I support you in that freedom of choice. I remain patient and accepting of your rights. Let's work towards constructive areas where we can agree. For I am not here, neither do I have the right, to sit in judgement of you." And.....
  
  At the same time, for you to say to me: "Jonny, I acknowledge you as a fellow human being and, although I do not accept for myself the idea of homosexuality, I will not sit in judgement of you, for I have no right to do so. I will support your freedom to live your life and make your choices as you see fit. I will seek to understand you more, so that I can become more akin to so many other persons who have the same orientation as yourself."
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  johnny, you already have my Love as in the agape Love that God also Loves us all with! I didn't think that was ever even in question. And I don't always say it to people especially since I and other Christians are often insulted and rejected when we say such a thing to an unbeliever. What's much more important is to tell people that God Loves them! And indeed He does!
  And in no way do I think I'm superior to you. I simply have something you don't have, and it's only by the grace of God that I have that anyway; plus, it's something you CAN have if you reach out for it. That's Christ in my heart and soul; that's salvation from my sins.
  
  Your other points...I'll try to get to in a few minutes if I can; and definitely will as soon as I can...
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That all sounds nice, johnny, but indeed I don't think you do support me in my freedom of choice on that. Else why would you say this? (and I quote)-----
  
  "Brenda, all the time you fall back on your interpretations of texts from the bible, you will be guilty of fuelling the fire which burns and beats and kills homosexual people!"
  
  Matter of fact, looks like you don't even support my freedom of speech!
  
  Telling someone that homosexuality is a sin is NOT tantamount to causing their death, physical or otherwise. And it's much more likely to be a catalyst for their spiritual LIFE.
  
  Or was that part about you not sitting in judgement of me an attempt at an apology? Unclear totally. But then, I'm an eternal optimist of sorts, so I thought I'd ask.
  
  You're right that I don't have the right to sit in judgement of you. Exactly where is it that you think I've done so? Because even though I have said and still say that homosexuality is wrong, I don't recall ever making it a personal thing and judging you individually and personally. You, however, have indeed. And I do have the right to speak on any subject I wish to, especially a subject that's been brought to the forefront of the society I live in, to my own Country, a Nation whose laws were based on that Book that's so despised by nonBelievers. Yes they were. Look it up. Even our bankruptcy laws have a Biblical basis. It's called "the year of jubilee". Forgiveness. Deuteronomy I think; not sure right now; but easily found if necessary.
  
  And I do have the right to fight verbally, politically, whatever legal way I can against the agenda of sanctioning marriage (or even civil unions) between same-sex people. This is my Country. It may also be the Country of gays. But neither they nor I have the right to make my Nation sanction something that's so blatantly wrong morally and legally.
  
  I do acknowledge you as a human being. Where have I not done so? A person can speak about issues without singling out a person to use as a personal example. I've noticed that many gays, however, take personal offense at someone who speaks out against homosexuality in general or whatever. That's their problem; not mine. I can and do accept and Love someone for the human being that they are, and still hate the fact that they engage in homosexual behavior. Can you separate me from my actions? Can you love me while hating the Bible? You should be able to, if I can afford you the same respect. No I don't have to respect your choice of action.
  
  Sorry, but no I can't support your freedom to choose whatever you want. I can sit by and allow you that freedom (which you have, and have had for as long as I can remember), but I won't support it as in approving of it, no. And in particular, I do not and can not and will not support the movement that's calling for homosexuality to be legally sanctioned, made into a law of the land.
  In Iraq, if what you say is true, people are being killed wrongly. But even in that, I would not use the homosexual excuse for opposing it. If people are being killed, then someone should try to stop it, because they're human beings, not because they're gay or assumed gay. Just like human beings are being killed wherever. Life is life; everyone has a right to Life (matters of war and capital punishment excluded).
  
  (Incidentally, I wonder if you would support opposition to abortion, or to the killing of people who aren't Islamic, etc.) In other words, what is your focus on-----saving people, period, from being killed, or just saving gays or those presumed gay?
  
  Your last sentence about how I should "seek to understand you more and become akin to" gays....--
  
  I already do understand. It's you who doesn't understand that. I know people personally, and know of people, personally, who are in the state of mind that you are. It's called unrepentant sin. I've been there myself, only with of course different kinds of temptations. All humans have been, are, or will be there in that dilemma.
  
  What you're basically saying is that you are what you do sexually and there's no changing that.
  I'm saying you are a human being in need of salvation just as we all are.
  
  Sin wastes each person's time, lost years that we cannot get back, hurt that we cannot erase, opportunities we let pass us by. I do understand. I'm very grateful for the people who led me to recognize my sins for what they were. I'm grateful to the people who told me I can't overcome those on my own. I'm grateful to all those people who prayed for me while I was still immersed in those sins. I'm eternally grateful to my Savior who showed me what Love really is.
  
  Now I ask you--of the two of us (you and me), which of us really Loves the other?
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  There is none so blind as those who will not see, because their heads are up there in the clouds.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Wow, very well stated Brenda. Some have stated they are born gay. It's an excuse to convince one that it is morally right to act on homosexual thoughts. God always provide a way to escape any form of temptation.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "Woman of Courage," I totally disagree with you. Your opinion obviously comes from a prejudice. Your opinion of homosexuality is based upon false assumptions. You do not know what my "homosexual thoughts" are. You do not know what my homosexual actions are. Whether I was "born" like it or not is of no consequence to me, and it should be of no consequence to you. It is irrelevant and none of your business. I live my life as I see fit, and you are in no place to judge me.
  
  Isn't it funny that you all spend so much time trying to condemn, by quoting dubious scriptures, the activities of loving people, and calling them sinful, while there is enormous evil taking place all over the world, which does untold harm to so many people and you allow it to go on without protest.
  
  There is no such thing as a judgmental "god" except in your mind. Humans do the judging. Pretty badly most of the time, too. There is a "god" you can go to, what will help to change your attitude, if you will only just listen. It is that "still small voice of calm" within you, accessible when you are very quite and meditative sometimes. But more often it comes when you are right down on your ass, life seems to be falling away and you feel totally abandoned and friendless. It's the centre of your being, personal, private and the source of your power and existence. You will find nothing about judging your fellow man in there. Only a judgment of your Self. That is all you need to contend with. Call it the Christ within, but don't use it to judge others, only your Self and your motives.
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  janikonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What a fantastic point, Woman of Courage. You have such a keen ability to speak volumes in as little as four lines, bravo. I think you should share your viewpoint with families of a LGBTQ youth who has committed, or, at least, attempted, suicide- I'm sure those heartening words about God providing an escape from any form of temptation would be comforting to them.
  
  I can only imagine those youths - some as young as twelve - were well on their way to convincing themselves it was morally right to act on their homosexual feelings- you know, having just started puberty. God must take a lot of vacations, especially with 40% of LGBTQ youth having attempted suicide by twenty, you'd think he'd be handing out temptation escape-plans out to his children, left, right and center. Instead of standing idly by as they die.
  
  But perhaps you're just on a different frequency than they are.
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Johnny
  
  The Yahweh love is full of conditional love that no man/woman can achieve. Yahweh followers are the Champion of judging others, Owwps I made a judgement call there.
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  Greek Oneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh dear Brenda, you know I love you and that you could never offend me or make me mad...
  
  but why do you consider lack of evangelical zeal on a forum on the world wide web as evidence of lack of conviction and faith?
  
  Indeed, very few things on here are worth getting up in arms about. It doesn't matter to me, for example if others doubt the divinity or existence of Jesus. This isn't Tarsus 2000 years ago... information is readily available for those who want to seek it (for those of us who live in a free country).
  
  What is concerning, however, is when people (present company excluded, of course) who claim to be Christians espouse positions that are far removed from the compassionate teachings of Christ, but use Jesus' life as validation for their bigotry.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I think we both challenge each other sometimes, Greek One.
  Sometimes that's good and sometimes not so good.
  
  My answer to your question is two-fold.
  I believe everyone should be the same online as they are offline, and voice their views in all arenas. Especially a Christian should never be afraid or hesitant to speak in favor of Jesus nor Biblical fundamentals. (Not that you're afraid or ashamed that I know of; it's just that that's the way I've always known Christians to be--vocal and consistently fervent).
  
  Secondly, there are real people behind online avatars. This is a real world, even if some people aren't who or what they say they are. So I never dismiss it as unimportant.
  
  Which actually brings me to the total reason. I understand this isn't Tarsus 2000 years ago, and that people have more access to everything. But people themselves haven't changed, and the Great Commission still stands just as importantly as it did when Jesus gave the command back then.
  
  Well, anyway, I would surely have a hard time staying mad at you too if I ever did get mad at you. Love you too. Platonically, with the Love of Jesus, I add (just so nobody can make anything bad outta that.)
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  maddartistposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "You've skipped the large portion and picked just a few"
  
  Again, the pot calling the kettle black.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "You've skipped the large portion and picked just a few."
  
  Indeed, you forgot some of the most important things Luke said, like,
  
  "But I was going in to Toshi Station to pick up some power converters!"
  
  and
  
  "I've got your artoo unit; I'm here with Ben Kenobi!"
  
  and
  
  "Ben.....Ben....."
  
  and
  
  "The Force is strong in my family. My father has it; I have it; my sister has it."
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Bingo !
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SandyMcCollumposted 12 years ago
Jesus made a point to love and gather with sinners. He loved unconditionally, no matter what has been done. Its us puny Humans who can't handle it - or at least some of them. Sometimes there are outside reasons that guided some to realize they were gay, but they don't "turn gay". They always were gay, they just came out of the closet.

I know two men who are married and they adopted two boys. These guys are great parents and worry about all the same things hetero ppl worry about. They mother and father their children, too, and it doesn't mean the kids will be gay because they were raised with gay parents. Being gay is something one cannot control.

There's a guy who's all tattoo'd, too. I think it's really ugly, but if he has kids it doesn't mean the kids will have the tattoos when they grow up. They may like or dislike them as their own personal choice. Children of gays are much the same, but they grow up with more open minds.

Who IS abnormal? We all are, in one perspective or another. The ones who can't stand these groups of individuals and couples and actually spend time and money protesting against them, or the ones who dispute any semblance of family between two same sex ppl that want to be married? With the gay population growing in leaps and bounds, their numbers will skyrocket - as it already has.

Normal is in the eyes of the beholder. We all have different norms, God made us that way. No two are alike, except for identical twins, and even they may have different sexual preferences.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Sandy, thank you for bring a bit of sanity to this Hub.
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Greek Oneposted 12 years ago
Not that you're afraid or ashamed that I know of; it's just that that's the way I've always known Christians to be--vocal and consistently fervent).

--->yeah, but I'm a Canadian... and we are neither vocal or fervent

Secondly, there are real people behind online avatars. This is a real world, even if some people aren't who or what they say they are. So I never dismiss it as unimportant.

---> I think this is about as far away as 'real' as one can get without the help of large amounts of Whiskey

Which actually brings me to the total reason. I understand this isn't Tarsus 2000 years ago, and that people have more access to everything. But people themselves haven't changed, and the Great Commission still stands just as importantly as it did when Jesus gave the command back then.

----> Are you familiar with the expression "I can't hear what you are saying because you are speaking to loudly"?

Well, anyway, I would surely have a hard time staying mad at you too if I ever did get mad at you. Love you too. Platonically, with the Love of Jesus, I add (just so nobody can make anything bad outta that.)

----> You do realize that the word platonically stems from the name of the ancient Greek philosopher, Plato, right? Based on this forum topic, and the practices of males during Platos time in Athens, I find your use of the word very ironic
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  hmm..
  I don't care where it originated from. The third definition in my Dictionary says this--
  
  "designating or of a relationship, or love, between a man and a woman that is purely spiritual or intellectual and without sexual activity"
  
  Sounds good to me. And notably nothing there about homosexual activity, or even love, between two same-sex people! It says between a man and a woman, and specifically excludes sexual activity.
  So there I've debunked your insinuation, Mr. Greek One.
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  Greek Oneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Google 'sexual practices of ancient Greek men" (with the safe search on)
  
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No way.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Greek One wrote:
  
  Google 'sexual practices of ancient Greek men" (with the safe search on)
  
  And lovely Brenda said: No way!!!!
  
  Oh, go on, Brenda... Have some fun.... at least just looking at the history. You might even get some real knowledge for a change.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh come on guys, that's just mean. It's like chasing someone with arachnophobia around with a giant spider.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ok Melissa, I have taken out the Spider.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You don't think she's really frightened/horrified by homosexuality, do you? Homophobia is a stratagem, not a deep-seated fear or hatred, for most right-wingers who aren't secretly gay themselves. In many cases, it's a form of accepted bigotry now that racism is no longer approved, more of a release valve for people who just need to hate something to feel like they're alive.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you Livelonger.... that's a point of view I had not considered. Brought me back down to earth, too.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Actually I think I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. Weird huh?
  
  In my personal opinion... and no disrespect intended... what my Spidy senses get from Brenda is a very insecure woman who uses her bible as a shield to wield off the things in life that terrify her. Since it is her only line of defense, she believes in it without fail or deviance in interpretation. She also relies on her church brethren as her entire support system. Anything that makes her doubt her surety in any way shape of form threatens her safety to the core. Anything that goes against what the others in the church say does the same.
  
  She puts up what appears to be a strong offense, but in reality it is a defense... and I get a sense of desperation at times when something makes her doubt (Which is generally when she withdraws from the debate- usually with some excuse such as housework or such)
  
  So yes, I actually do think that she is scared of homosexuality... not so much the act itself but a fear that she might actually grow to empathize with gays... which would produce a HUGE inner conflict. And since-underneath her fluster- I actually think she is a naturally caring person who wishes for acceptance herself, it WOULD be a huge shaking of her world.
  
  I actually feel for her at times, because my relationship with Jesus is incredibly freeing for me. My church is extremely supportive, often ESPECIALLY with those who have different opinions. It makes me sad when a church and faith becomes a prison.
  
  Just my two cents... I could be wrong.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I could be wrong too, and naturally I respect your viewpoint, which might very well be right. But my instincts say different.
  
  I'm familiar with the type of person you describe, and I've met people like that. Some are even active on "homosexual" threads on this site (even this one).
  
  However, there are other right-wing Christians who really embrace Kierkegaardian religious fervor. They will usually use "combative" terms like fight, struggle, agenda, opponents, etc when talking about religious concepts, as if religion were a team sport or politics. The line between religion and right-wing politics is oddly blurred. These were the same type of people who were on the front lines in the fights to keep schools segregated, interracial marriages banned, women from voting, etc and they used similar language and highly-selective scriptural references then. Different generation, different prejudices worth fighting for.
  
  Usually these people only soften (or evade) when you bring up their own moral failings. That's the only time you see nuance and appeals to reason and compassion.
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Why would a tree fight with it's branches
  
  That is why I would not join any religious fight club
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I respect that and you likely are right. Your instincts are likely more honed than mine because I don't deal with even a percentage of the crap that you do.
  
  After all, being bi gives me a 50 percent chance of settling down on the "normal" side of the fence. For all intents and purposes I live like a completely straight woman. (Except that I don't catch my husband staring at cute girls because I am too)
  
  While I am extremely vocal, I am also in the closet with most of my family. (Who just seem to think I had a lot of close female friends)
  
  So yeah, I am really not in as good of a position to judge as you... (and now I feel like a sell-out too )
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think I've dealt with more crap than you have. A lot of the right-wing bullcrap I've seen these days is directed towards women, too. At least I'd never be subjected to the "shame wand."
  
  I'm fortunate to live in a liberal, tolerant place, and to have family, friends, and colleagues for whom my sexuality is truly not an issue. I have lived in worse places in the past and had to deal with ignorance and cruelty, but fortunately engaging with ignorant religious bigots is a matter of my own choice now. Lots of people don't have that choice, and, in fact, have no escape from it.
  
  At any rate you should not feel like a sellout for any reason. I've long realized that some people are beyond reasoning with (maybe that's your conclusion too). Engaging with some of them though can point out the baselessness of their position to observers who are on the fence, though. Some of these people are believed to be simply devout when the reality is their observance is more than spotty, and because of that they shouldn't have any moral authority whatsoever.
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  Hollie Thomasposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  At any rate you should not feel like a sellout for any reason. I've long realized that some people are beyond reasoning with
  
  LL, based on my own life experiences (and despite my lack of patience sometimes) I have to disagree. I was brought up to believe that every black man I met would attempt to sell drugs to me or decide that I would be a worthy lady of the night. I was also a teenager in the eighties and when the aids epidemic hit home, I was assured that the "disease" was largely due to the promiscuity demonstrated by the gay community. Although very young, I obviously struggled with these scenarios and explanations for what was, and still is, a threat to us all. (stereotypes)
  
  Fortunately, I found education and all my doubts regarding the so called "failings" of other human beings was confirmed. They weren't failings. When my son told me he was gay, he was very young, I advised him in the best way I knew how. He worried about how his dad "would deal with it" how his nana and grandad "would deal with it" I told him, they'll have to, their biases are not your problem, they own them. Stop worrying and "live"
  
  My dad's dead now, but I have worked tirelessly on my mother, and Thomas's dad. Both are willing to welcome any future partner. In fact, my mum, has had Thomas's boyfriend Jacob, for Sunday lunch and declared that he is a nice lad, and that Thomas could do worse!!!!
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  Hollie Thomasposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Btw, my mum didn't have Jacob for Sunday lunch, she didn't eat him. I just wanted to clarify.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry I missed this post somehow, Hollie. I agree that some people can change, and sometimes that change comes as a huge surprise. Your and Melissa's examples make that clear. I've also been surprised to see some people display incredible humanity when I was sure their hearts were made of stone, and I've been upset at myself for being wrong about them.
  
  At the same time, I don't think everyone can change. If, when given repeated opportunities to act like a decent person, someone still behaves horribly, then efforts at "working with them" are better spent elsewhere. Miracles could still happen, but it would have to happen via a different route. Sadly, some people will die bad people.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  TMI, But I am subjected to the wand of shame on a weekly basis right now. It's not nearly as fun as one would think.
  
  Despite the common perceptions of West Virginians, we are actually a pretty tolerant bunch (at least in the northern part of the state... I'm having some issues with racism from my husbands relatives in central WV)
  
  The issue within my family with homosexuality is just with one person and it is her religion... on the surface. Deep down she is just a really unpleasant person who hates pretty much everyone who isn't doing exactly what she thinks is right. When she dies, I'll probably "come out". I wish my uncle would have had the chance before he drank himself to death over it. She is truly incapable of being reasoned with.
  
  My dad on the other hand was a diehard racist (likely from being raised by the above person). Yet his entire attitude changed the second that he looked at my son. He is actually one of the most accepting people in the world now... of all differences. He was supportive of my uncle who thought he was closeted until the last year of his life. (Although to be honest, he was so obviously gay- think jack on will and grace- that we all knew)
  
  I would have never though my dad was going to make that change... but he did.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Interaction with actual human beings makes a huge difference. I'm glad your son was able to make your father change; it gives me hope. (The fact that decent people, and not only zealots, have children does, too...)
  
  I remember seeing a chart recently that showed the gap between the percentage of people who think gay people deserve equal rights in the early 90s vs today by state, and those states that have a relatively high number of visible gay people saw a larger gap. It's easy to hold hard positions against a class of people you have no personal experience with, I guess.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "I actually do think that she is scared of homosexuality... not so much the act itself but a fear that she might actually grow to empathize with gays... which would produce a HUGE inner conflict."
  
  It's not just very religious folks who freak out about the idea of gayness. Funny story: back in college a couple friends of mine told me about this gross and disgusting poem they were assigned in a modern American poetry class. You may be familiar with it: "Please, Master" by Allen Ginsberg. I'd never heard of the poem at the time, and I asked what was so gross about it. These two girls told me that I wouldn't be able to get through the first few lines without being grossed out, and in fact, I probably wouldn't be able to finish it.
  
  Well, that wasn't going to stand. Sight unseen, I made them a $5 bet that I could read it out loud for them.
  
  We went back to the dorm, and they found the book, and I gave them an interpretive reading. After about line 15, they actually physically fled my presence, and I had to literally chase them through the hall and down the stairs as I finished the poem.
  
  I never did get my $5....
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  SeamlessDestiny03posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I just want to make note that not everyone is Christian, nor does everyone believe in God. Also, throwing around the bible constantly is slightly offensive to me- If God created every being on this planet, and no one is a mistake, then I must need an exorcism. Do you think I really wanted to be BORN gay? I can't help what turns me on. I can't help the butterflies I get when I kiss other women and how much lube and boredom went into my past relations with men. The bible cannot be the answer because I was not given a choice.
  
  I was once with a splendid young man who could give me the world. His parents were absolutely amazing, he took me on exotic vacations, wined me and dined me, treated me like a queen and made me really happy. We got along famously except for one minor detail- I could not be intimate with him. It did NOTHING for me. Nothing. Even kissing him slowly became a chore until I finally had to leave him. Even he knew deep down I was gay before we ever even broke up (towards the end he started drinking and got slightly violent and vocal calling me a dyke and other obscenities).
  
  I went so far as to seek help for a sexual dysfunction I assumed I had. I tried EVERYTHING to be straight. Alas, here I am today happy with women. Its not fair to be judged on things we cannot choose.
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  maddartistposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well said. It still baffles me that people believe homosexuality is a choice. No matter how hard you try to explain something to some people they just don't want to think rationally. They choose to live in their fantasy world, it's easier for them.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I think they get them confused with bi people. A bi man or woman could choose to date another man or woman. A homosexual person cannot, nor can a completely heterosexual person. I am bisexual, I've just leaned more towards the hetero "side" for a long time, as there aren't many women that I find attractive, and for other reasons. But there have been a few that I've been very much attracted to here and there in my lifetime.
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  maddartistposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, that's true. I've known a few bisexual women but no bisexual men, which is interesting lol. But even still you don't choose to be bisexual, it's just who your brain/heart feels attraction towards, you can't help it.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yea, it is just the way we are. My boyfriend's bisexual. So there you go.
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  Repairguy47posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Why do so many homosexual men and women have opposite sex ex's and children if they "cannot" choose to date the opposite sex?
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  SeamlessDestiny03posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  WHO you date is a choice. The sex you are attracted to is not (unless you are bisexual or pansexual). Pressures of society have a major grip on ones mind. I grew up in a house where homosexuality was never discussed thus leading me to date men. We got along, but that was about it. In areas or families where "gay" is not a household term, you don't know better and experiment like anyone 'learning' to date would.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  *Smiles* That's not precisely true. I'm bi and I still don't get to choose.
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  janikonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Societal influence plays a huge factor in who you choose to date, if all your friends are dating girls and societal law dictates you are suppose to want to date them too, you do it. It's only in the last few years homosexuality and lesbianism are more widely taught, this may see the number of 'opposite sex exes' decrease over time.
  
  It's all about figuring yourself out, like any person. Whereas heterosexuals are attracted to the opposite sex without question, members of the LGBTQ community are often conflicted between what they feel and what they assume they are suppose to feel, often times entering into relationships solely to feel accepted within society or normal within their familial environment.
  
  As for having children, gay men and women don't lose the desire to reproduce upon discovery of their homosexuality or lesbianism.
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  Repairguy47posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thats all great. But, I was asking the poster if they don't have a choice then why do they have ex's of the opposite sex. Obviously they have a choice.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So do heterosexuals. They could get sexually involved with people of the same sex. They tend not to. I wonder why?
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  Repairguy47posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  They CHOOSE not to.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Right. And more and more gay people are choosing not to live a lie. There are still many who, because of societal or familial pressure, choose to fake it.
  
  There is no societal/familial pressure to be gay, so heterosexuals pretending to be gay is a virtually nonexistent phenomenon.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Sexual attraction is not a choice. How can you make such a ridiculous assertion?
  
  How can you possibly believe that is true? Do you choose who you are sexually attracted to?
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It would be against their nature to do so!
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Repairguy47, can I put to you a question, which might help get things into perspective?
  
  I guess that you are a christian. Is that right? Just for arguments sake, I will assume that you are. If not, please excuse me.
  
  Ok, you have a very strong christian conviction. You feel there is no way you can be anything else, it seems part of your make-up. To be anything different would be against everything you stand for - it's out of the question.
  
  There is only one problem. You are a treasured member of a Muslim household. Although you respect your family and your upbringing and you value the sense of belonging, deep inside of you is your christian "me."
  
  There are several options open to you. You could run away. But then you would be shedding all that family warmth and support which you desperately need. You could "come out" to them, at the risk of being ostracized and disinherited. You can continue living the lie. This will eat you away inside more than you care to imagine.
  
  Can you transfer this sort of situation to a homosexual person (please note the adjective)? Please, look deep and share with us what you are feeling.
  
  (As a footnote, compare the above scenario with one where the family is loving, accepting, supporting - I have know beautiful families with gay members amongst them.)
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  Repairguy47posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I understand what you are saying. You don't seem to understand that some people made a choice. No matter how you put the scenario the fact is some made a choice.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So....??? Just what are you getting at? You have made your point about choice. So what? Are you gay? Are you anti-gay? Are you in the closet? Are you a Southern Baptist?
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  Repairguy47posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  I love stirring you "tolerant" people up.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  While you sit in the shadows, UN-identified, unwilling to present yourself - a nice, easy, safe place to be. Coward!
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  Repairguy47posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Face it, you are the prototypical liberal. When proven wrong you resort to name calling, its very funny to watch you flail about like you know everything just to concede that homosexuality is a choice. Carry on.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Give us a good, intelligent discussion. Tell us your opinions. Give us good reasoning. None of us here has to be right or wrong all the time. We can hear different points of view and change our minds if we think fit.
  
  You have seen some individuals get heated over one thing or another, yet they are still welcome and stay to debate further.
  
  Try putting something about yourself into your Profile. It does not have to be a photo, if you are shy. Just tell us who you are and what your primary understanding is. Be part of the community here if you want to, but it needs a bit more than just stirring us up.
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  Repairguy47posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  Now you're the voice of reason?
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  mikelongposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  We know you are definitely not...
  
  --Brain Drain example number 7 in an ongoing case study...
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You can write a pretty good description of how to repair a light fitting, and how to repair a hole in the wall. Your writing style is good, and the grammar/spelling is fine.
  
  So how come you don't have the courage and good sense to discuss with us? Have you something against people having same-sex attractions?
  
  Discuss it. Approach the subject with an open mind.
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  Repairguy47posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Apparently your previous posts have escaped you, I CHOOSE not to discuss with you because you are irrational. Any other questions you could have answered for yourself?
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  They do not have the choice of attraction, but they do have the choice of who to date. Those are two very different things.
  
  A man likes men.
  Society condemns the man.
  Society says "date a woman!"
  The man dates a woman.
  The man still likes other men.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You're not really getting it, I don't think.
  
  If I'm gay, and I know that I'm gay, but I want to be "normal" because my society says something's wrong with me, and I don't want to live a life being ridiculed by hypocrites, then I will go against my own nature and be with who they say I should be with, and even try to convince myself that I'm not really gay, when deep down, I know who I am.
  
  There's nothing that makes people more unhappy than having to disguise their true nature. What you don't seem to get is that there are MANY men and women out there who are attracted to the same sex, but at the fear of estrangement from their family members who offer them a selfish "love," and ostracism from a society they find dear, they hide their true selves from people who only conditionally care about them, and that's no way that anyone should have to live.
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  Repairguy47posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What you described is a choice, you apparently are the one not getting it.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not so certain. I'll repost my second comment towards you.
  
  "A man likes men.
  Society condemns the man.
  Society says "date a woman!"
  The man dates a woman.
  The man still likes other men."
  
  Do you see where the choice is made? He's choosing to date a woman, but he cannot change the fact that he is only attracted to men. Again, this is the difference between choosing who you date, and who you are attracted to. You can ignore your attraction for someone. But, you can't change the fact that they are attractive to you. You ask people to live a life going against how they really are in order to satisfy you and others who do not like their "lifestyle." That is selfish, sorry.
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  Repairguy47posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thats exactly what I've been saying, that person chose. The mantra has and continues to be "why would someone choose to be gay?" I don't know, why does someone choose to be a masochist? Why does someone choose to be a pedophile? Why does someone choose to be heterosexual? When you are able to choose (and you are)only you can answer why.
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  janikonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Whoop, there actual has been several scientific studies proving pedophilia is neurological disorder and unfortunately, other than defining the word 'choice' several different ways you've not proved anything to say that it's not. All you've done is 'proven' that some homosexual and lesbian people choose to date women/men, which we've already agreed with.
  
  I also find it funny that rightwinged conservatives continually ask close-ended questions of the same nature without offering a shred of fact to support their arguments but are the first to cry about being name-called.
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  Repairguy47posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well, then the pedophile should be a protected class shouldn't they? When they abuse children its not really their fault, they were born that way...right?
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  janikonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I cannot pinpoint where in my response I made that assertion, perhaps you could point it out. I was simply correcting you on your somewhat loose definition of 'choice' but, at this point, that is neither here nor there. What really concerns me is you've yet to offer up solid fact prooving homosexuality is a choice.
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  Repairguy47posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You have never heard of a homosexual having been married or having children through a heterosexual relationship? Was the relationship forced upon them? No, then they made a choice.
  
  "Gay people do not have children"
  "Many gays and lesbians are parents. They may have children from a prior heterosexual relationship (many come out later in life). They may also choose to have children within their gay or lesbian relationship, by adoption or artificial insemination."
  
  You mean they made a choice?
  From
  http://www.twu.edu/downloads/counseling … ut_LGB.pdf
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  Moon Daisyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ok, the Oxford English Dictionary definition of homosexual is "sexually attracted to people of one’s own sex."
  
  Even if somebody marries a person of the opposite sex, and maybe has kids (in a relationship which they perhaps haven't been physically forced into, but feel forced into by society), this then does not stop them from being homosexual.
  
  If you are gay, then marrying someone (that you might not be attracted to), having sex with them and reproducing does not stop you from being gay!
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  Repairguy47posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Please Daisy, explain to me where a choice is NOT made.
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  Moon Daisyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ok, in this scenario, a choice is NOT made about the person's sexuality. The only choice that is made is to repress their true feelings.
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  Moon Daisyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  This, in turn, often leads to many years of counselling. Not a healthy state to be in!
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  Repairguy47posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Grasping at straws, the choice had been made. Sex is pleasurable, can we agree on that? Take a man for example, if a man is going to have sex then its always best that the penis be erect, not only best but kind of a prerequisite. If the penis is erect its a safe bet that he finds the act pleasurable, if he is having sex with a woman but is really gay then the chances are he does not find it pleasurable, correct?
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Your logic seems to miss out some key points, some of which that do not require attraction to a third party for arousal.
  
  Did you hear about the heterosexual football player you had a stroke, and when he recovered, he was homosexual? You might find this interesting;
  
  http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcthree/201 … -gay.shtml
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Some men's penises don't even jerk at the thought of a woman naked. Some men, while they prefer a man's anatomy, can be turned on by physical stimulation, regardless if the one doing it is a man or not. I once dated a guy who would be ready for sex simply if you played with his nipples a little bit because they were that sensitive and physically arousing. It doesn't necessarily = attraction. Also, some men that are gay speak of imagining they are having sex with a man instead.
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  janikonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You seem stuck on the choice thing, no one is arguing you about homosexuals choosing to be with women or men, it doesn't change the fact they are inherently gay.
  
  You have still yet to prove that homosexuality is a choice and not simply who they choose to date.
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  Repairguy47posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  How can one be inherently gay and yet carry on a heterosexual relationship? The burden of proof is on you, I have proven a choice has been made!
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  janikonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You do what you need to do to fit in, especially when you're young and don't want to be ostracised. You clearly do not understand what we are trying to say, and now I'm bored.
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  Repairguy47posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm sure you are! You handled the discussion just as a true liberal would!
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  janikonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I know you meant that as an insult, but I'm choosing to take it as a compliment. Have a nice night.
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  Repairguy47posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I meant it as a description. Run along now.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So, is there such a thing as a "true liberal?" Tell us the attributes of a "true liberal," as you understand it.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The difference, amongst MANY other things, is this, repairguy.
  
  A pedophile's disorder has to do with him or her trying to initiate sex with a young boy or girl. These are not consenting adults. It would be taking advantage of them and always involves some form of manipulation. Also, keep in mind that back in the day, when the we weren't expected to live very long, men were often with younger women, and it was commonplace for a 14 year old girl to be married. Who knows how far back this custom goes? However, we now live in a society where that way is obsolete, we can live much longer, and we give children, especially young girls, the ability to be children until they reach what we have reached the age when one becomes an adult and is more mature in many aspects of the word. To take advantage of them in this stage of life is the problem.
  
  Homosexuality is about two CONSENTING parties that are close in age and/or adults being able to be physically intimate and express their love with each other. No manipulation. No one being deprived of anything (like their childhood and so on) Just two people in love and/or physically attracted being intimate with each other.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The voice of good sense and reasonableness. Thanks ATW
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  Moon Daisyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  A Thousand Words, I think that your explanation is bang-on. Really easy for any mildly intelligent person to understand.
  
  Repairguy47 sounds like somebody who just likes to wind people up, and he admits this himself. I think he is probably adequately intelligent to understand the issue, he just wants to tease and provoke a reaction.
  
  In my experience, when people push and push for reactions like this, they have some kind of repressed feeling towards the people they are provoking, or the subject that they are discussing. (Or else he just likes the attention he is getting!)
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  Repairguy47posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh moon daisy, its the ol he is a closeted homosexual ploy. If I was would that be wrong? If not then why do you attempt to use the suggestion as an attack? Its a weak attack at best.
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  Moon Daisyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh Repairguy47, I do not wish to attack you in any way. I don't have any feelings about whether you are gay, straight or bi. You just remind me of a lot of people that I have known, and people who post similar kinds of stuff to you.
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  Repairguy47posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Then why say this?
  
  "In my experience, when people push and push for reactions like this, they have some kind of repressed feeling towards the people they are provoking, or the subject that they are discussing. (Or else he just likes the attention he is getting!)"
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  Moon Daisyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm just saying it how I see it. Not attacking anyone.
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Jeff Berndtposted 12 years ago
The problem with using words like "normal" and "abnormal" is that people insist on putting a value judgement on normality and abnormality.

Normal isn't necessarily good--it's just what most people are like. Abnormal isn't necessarily bad--it's just rare.

Heck, most people aren't billionaires, therefore, billionaires are abnormal.

Most people do not reenact the War of 1812, therefore, war of 1812 reenactors are abnormal (even among reenactors, they're in a small minority).

Most people do not have tattoos, therefore, people with tattoos are abnormal.

But there's nothing wrong with any of the above-named things. They're not unhealthy; they're just unusual.

But then again, all of the above things are not inherent to the individual: nobody is born with tattoos, for example. And while it's possible to be born into a wealthy family, it is also possible to lose that wealth and not be a billionaire anymore.

So gayness would be better compared to, say, blue-eyed-ness, or albinism, or left-handedness. Left-handedness is relatively rare, so being left-handed is clearly abnormal. In fact, back in the day, left-handed people were persecuted, and forced to conform to the right-handed norm. It was even considered sinful to use one's left hand for writing, eating, etc.

But of course, now we know that left-handedness, like being gay, is not chosen, is not sinful, and in fact, is just the way some people are: It's just unusual to be left-handed. Or gay. It's not bad; it just is.

But of course, there are always going to be people who feel the need to persecute anyone who is different. In high school, they tease you, or vandalize your locker, or try to extort your lunch money. In adult life, they carry signs that say God hates you, or they try to make it illegal for you to marry, or whatever.

But not everyone is a bully, thank goodness. Really, bullying is abnormal, too, but in a bad way.
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icountthetimesposted 12 years ago
Gay people taking a real kicking from society. They're perfectly normal, the people attacking them on the other hand..
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Since most people are religious, I wonder who is doing most of the kicking
  mmmmm? I wonder what Jesus would say?, if he knew that it is a death penalty to be gay in predominant Religious countries, being soft on crime and all.
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Hollie Thomasposted 12 years ago
@Livelonger. I suppose that's the difficulty for us all. How do we differentiate between those who are ill-informed and those who just enjoy their apparent, false superiority, and gain pleasure by undermining others. I suppose you have to know them pretty well to begin with to make that distinction.

I can see your point, there are some that will never change, irrespective of how hard we try. In this respect it can be a waste of time, they have chosen their path, their life. Better to concentrate on changing things for the better for gay couples. WE just have to live and learn I expect, at least WE are prepared to do that.
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Gordon Hamiltonposted 12 years ago
How I precisely found this topic is thanks to Hollie! It's not something I would normally post on and no - I'm not.

I would like to point out something, however, to everyone that I hope you will consider...

Give me space, please, and I will try to explain...!

I am a Scottish Presbyterian. I was brought up in the sense that Popery (Roman Catholicism) and homosexuality were signs of the devil.

I have in adult life made many good friends who are both RC and homosexual and have no time for this bigotry. I do, however, continue to worship the word of the good book that forbids such activity.

What should I do? Essentially, it's a private conscience issue, one to carefully ponder and a very private concern.

Please, people, don't be so judgemental of others - are you really so perfect???
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I think if everyone thought it was a private conscience issue, there wouldn't be much of an issue whatsoever.
  
  Unfortunately, there are some people who are very persistently loud about the "sin of homosexuality" while being quiet as a mouse about all the other sins they might be guilty of themselves.
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Trillions of sins to sort out for the devil and decision on who to hurt most, perhaps he is so over loaded with absurd laws from ancient times.
  
  Must be hell down there
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  Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  See, the worry about the whole "private conscience" thing is that when the 'sin' is something most of us don't want to do anyway, it's easy to demonize those who want to do it. But when the 'sin' is something that most people really enjoy (like bacon, or pizza [mixing beef and dairy], or wearing stylish clothing [blended fabrics] or seafood [shellfish]) it's harder to demonize those who do it.
  
  It's much safer to persecute a tiny, powerless minority than it is to persecute a large, powerful majority.
  
  Christian bullies target gays and not divorcees for the exact same reason that animal rights activists throw paint on ladies in fur coats but not on bikers in leather jackets: cowardice.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed completely, but I'm not opposed to someone who privately thinks homosexuality is the worst sin, or any other irrational and bigoted thought. I have no interest in getting in someone's head.
  
  I only have a problem with it when they badger me or other gay people when they can't manage to be sinless themselves, or when they vote to restrict others' civil rights that they enjoy themselves. So, I have a problem with certain behaviors/actions, not with beliefs.
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  Greek Oneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  how long ago did you make the decision to be gay, livelonger?
  
  ..and was it a form of rebellion on your part?
  
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I can't remember the date, exactly, but, yes, of course it was a deliberate choice to rebel against God's Word™.
  
  When did you choose to be Greek? I'm sure you're aware of that nationality's unGodly® associations...
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  Greek Oneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I made the decision to be Greek the same day the European community decided to lend billions of dollars to Greece.
  
  I didn't realize that the money would be going directly to the government, however.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ahh, Europe. The Den of Iniquity®. The Stronghold of Socialism™.
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Always try to understand this anti gay relationship movement and keep failing at it and most likely never will succeed being so unkind to any other group. As if gays would changed their lifestyle to be so narrow and loop-sided as many Religious people think, it would only make both sides more unhappy.
  
  It must be their form of miserableness they will carry for the rest of their lives and into the afterlife. Don't worry Christians, God will love you anyways if many other groups don't , try wearing the gay person shoes rather than those saddles you rarely wear, now.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Gordon Hamilton, your post does not seem to have brought any reasonable answer to your questions yet. So, respectfully, let's give it a thought.
  
  Even if you can't come to a specific decision about being gay, per see, or accepting homosexuality if you are not yourself gay, there are, I feel, some common denominator requirements for being a reasonable, companionable person in society, regardless of the sexual orientation/attraction, which we all aught to be concentrating on. If there is discord and we can't agree on the specific differences, then let's look at the attributes which we can agree upon and promote those.
  
  All the 10 Commandments deserve our attention. The basic tenets of fairness, kindness, courtesy, unselfish pursuits, going the extra mile, turning the other cheek....etc., etc., - we enhance our community and our neighbours if we give plenty of time to these principles. They are important regardless of whether we are hetero- or homosexual.
  
  A same-gender couple who are nuturing a young person (child) into a life worth living have the same needs and duties focused on the child as a heterosexual couple. Also, not having brought up kids I am on the outside looking in. Yet I can see and admire parents who are having a very difficult time of it. In many cases they deserve a medal!
  
  All the above is MUCH more demanding of our time and attention than the confusing and doubtful teachings/preachings which some put forward from the bible.
  
  Does this help you in your dilemma at all? I hope it's at least food for thought.
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  Hollie Thomasposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I actually admire you for this post, Gordon. It's honest. You openly admit what you were brought up to believe and then talk about your exasperation with bigotry. if only...if only other people of religion could be this honest about how they feel conflicted,then we could all have a sensible and civil debate.
  
  I'm not religious, just like you are not gay, but just like you I'll attempt to walk in another man's shoes and ask, did the good book preach this discrimination against gay men and women, or was it people...of religion?
  
  I understand, even though I have not experienced this inner conflict myself, that it must be confusing and leave you with lots of questions yet unanswered. I think Melissa nails it when she says that you can be religious, but still think for yourself and determine what each teaching means, especially when it talks of love and compassion for our fellow human beings. I don't believe that any religious book anywhere promotes us mere mortals to elevate ourselves to the status of judgement day doormen. That is so short sighted, egotistic and probably not was initially intended. Still, the executioners will have their own community, where they can all just judge each other (no compassionate person would ever want to be there!)
  
  What should you do? Follow your conscience is my advice,but its up to you.
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  SeamlessDestiny03posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I also really admire your post! How big of you to be so honest and respectful. I agree with both posts ahead of mine. I also feel, should you want to, follow what YOU feel is right. If you want to stick to your teachings and you truly feel you are straight, then don't "practice" homosexuality personally. If you have conflict about your sexuality, I think for sake of your sanity, you should explore that. If you find that neither of these options are correct, maybe you can find a group/church of your denomination that has accepted homosexuality.
  
  I too, am not religious, but know and associate with people (we will use my Christian friends for this) who range all over. I have a friend who is a complete bible thumping devout Christian (I say this lovingly No disrespect!) who has sat down with me for HOURS as we discuss and dissect each others opposing view points. Although she does not agree with homosexuality, she respects my life and even told me she would come to my wedding one day. This was a HUGE deal to me because it showed her compassion for humanity as a whole. She will not "practice" homosexuality but is a big enough person to respect someone who does. I also have Christian friends who attend churches that are accepting of everyone.
  
  Help any?
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Greek Oneposted 12 years ago
I actually have a bone to pick (no pun intended) with you gay people....

Why is it that only once in my 41 years have I been hit on by another man?

I used to think it was because I reek too much of heterosexuality for a gay man to approach me.. but as it has happened once, that kind of hurts my theory.

More importantly, the guy who hit on me was waaaaaay beneath my standards, so I was a little offended by that, and hold a grudge against all you people as a result.

I am not sure that being gay will keep you out of Heaven, but hurting my feelings with lack of attention sure isnt the proper thing to do!

It's not that i am interested in men, mind you... but a fellow likes to think that he has options.
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Fear of being being hit on, at my age I'll take any attention I can get, even if I'm not gay.
  
  One time a gay homeless man told me I was Hot, Then I ask Him, was it the way I was walking or standing that made you think that.?
  Then walked off with a smile
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  Greek Oneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  see! All the gay homeless men here are soooooo stuck up!
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe if I was gay and had lots of booze to give him, we could have went somewhere.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Take it as a compliment. The straight men that I know that complain that "so many" gay men are always hitting on them are uniformly ugly (whether they're delusional or the gay men they're talking about have bad taste, I'm not sure).
  
  Attractive straight men never seem to complain that gay men hit on them or don't; maybe because it's because they're used to getting it from women.
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  Greek Oneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  ....still... i think i better hit the gym
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  LMAO! I'm tied with you. One night one of my gay guy friends dressed me in "drag" to go to the bar. I was a woman dressed as a guy dressed as a woman...
  
  I pause for a moment of appreciation to all the fabulous queens out there:
  
  1. Duct tape is a bitch to pull off.
  2. You can't see through 2 inch fake eyelashes
  3. Glitter NEVER completely comes off
  4. 6 inch spiked heels double as torture devices
  5. Those wigs are fuggin heavy
  
  With that said I had to have the most unusual conversation I've ever had in my life... I had to explain to the very attractive gay man that he was of the ONLY sexual orientation that I didn't consider for a possible romance. He, in turn, assured me that I was the only woman he had ever hit on in his life.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  DArling!!!! All very sinful, I am sure, but the Lord won't mind! He's gay too! Or at least ambiguous. Or Bi. .....
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Nah, I think he's pretty much asexual. Except for that one tryst with that virgin he doesn't really get around much.
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  Hollie Thomasposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Nah, if he exists (are we talking about G or J? If we're talkning about J, and they exist, it's a woman.) If we're talking about G...then he's most definitely a Tea Party member.
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  SeamlessDestiny03posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If it makes you feel any better, I never get hit on by women because they all think I am straight.
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gamergirlposted 12 years ago
Busts are a novelty for gay men, Greek One. That's all.
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  Greek Oneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  sadly, during my teenage years.. they were all but a myth to me
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Fairy tales have changed, (Fairy) Gay Parade in Toronto is larger than the world largest Santa's Christmas Parade in Toronto also.
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  gamergirlposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'M SO SAD, YOU TOTALLY SKIPPED MY PUN.
  
  Sad, I tell you. Positively miserable.
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  Greek Oneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  oh, I got it..
  
  I just wanted to stay with a perverted theme
  
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Shanna11posted 12 years ago
My only problem with gay guys is that they're all the attractive ones. I swear, every drop-dead gorgeous guy I've met was gay and after a while I'm beginning to become desperate. Are there no attractive straight men?! Why did the gay ones get all the looks? It's not fair.
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  Greek Oneposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  THAT is the reason that I always loved gay men....
  
  could you imagine the increased competition for women if gays became straight?!?!?
  
  As for lesbians.. well.. they are easy to love
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  Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "Are there no attractive straight men?!"
  Yes, but we're all married.
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  Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  To a hetero, anything else is abnormal. To a homosexual, being hetero is abnormal. Everybody is abnormal to somebody else.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Most of us manage to happily coexist with people who are different from us, though.
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  Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That is why I don't like judgemental, predjudicial people. Odd that so many are christian, after all, to fulfill the wishes nof God, pointing the finger has got to stop. And, christians aren't the only ones.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Haha, Shanna. I can fully understand you, but those lovely gay guys are the ones I fancy too...
  
  I can feel for you and your needs, honestly. Yet may I ask you a question? Would you like to tell us what you would "want" in a man who was your "desire?"
  
  I often see "straight" couples, where either or both of them, in my eyes, are downright ugly. Yet they have a wonderful warm and loving relationship. Their love has a lot more to do with the inner stuff than the outer stuff. This applies equally to gay couples too. I wonder what on earth each sees in the other but, again, "love runs deeper."
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  Shanna11posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You pose a good point. I'm really not a shallow person- I swear. I was having a jokey-vain moment. Really for me, I just want a guy who's not a jerk, wants a family and treats me as well as I deserve.
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Greek Oneposted 12 years ago
i think it has a lot to do with penis size
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  srwnsonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Truckers have bigger rigs!
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  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  GW penis was the size of a missile,
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Will Apseposted 12 years ago
Half the people who live in our home are gay. I find it unremarkable. There is certainly nothing abnormal about it. People are who they are.

It is much easier that gays are not 'gays' in this country (in the sense of either persecuted, politicised or striking annoying postures). They are just people who prefer their own gender for intimate company.

Men treat women pretty badly on the whole in this part of the world and it is a practical alternative to being lonely and abandoned for older women. My daughter in law has arrived at the solution in her teens.

My wife still hopes that one day, her one and only will meet the 'right man'. I try not to say too much.
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Will Apseposted 12 years ago
I reckon you and Brenda are getting around to working something out. It does seem a very slow process, though. lol
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  There was nothing "worked out". And no offer to work anything out. And if there had been, I'm sure it would not have been one I couldn't refuse.
  
  I've just been turning the other cheek in that situation.
  I reckon when I run out of cheeks to turn, we'll see what the accusers do then. I'm purty sure I know; 'cause they've never changed yet (as evidenced in a post here and in other threads).
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  LoL, the accusers? Or the people who are pointing out what you do, and somehow you're so special that when people call you on your bull, they are "accusers?" It never fails.
  
  No, they are people, either angry that their rights are being denied, or sympathetic for others whose rights are being denied because of people, like you, who live in a box and try to place everyone else in the world in the same box. You think you know everything about everything, that your God has given you and all the other "believers" special knowledge about what's "good" and "right" in this world. But, what you do, especially in forums like this, is far from "good" for anyone but your "God" and yourselves.
  
  And so people will happily be called perverted and whatever other demeaning names you would like to call them. Because they love themselves. And have every right to.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Are you guys tag-teaming or something? LOL.
  
  Let's see.....I think I can re-use my left cheek....
  
  So bye bye.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You take personal offense, but you cannot do any self-reflection because of your arrogance. It has nothing to do with how many times you turn your cheek.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yep. Unfortunately for her, ATW drew the short straw in this morning's "Persecute Brenda" team meeting. On the upside, the position comes with all the free Irish coffee you can drink.
  
  In the meantime, It frees me, LL and the others up to hunt virgins to sacrifice in this weekends "All Hail Satan" community mixer. We have a bread maker and a black vinyl body suit for door prizes this week. I'm real excited about that.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  LOL. I can't... I can't breathe...
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jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years ago
Brenda, I have been off-line for so many days now, and I see you are still persisting in your attitude of seeing being gay as a "perversion."

Haven't you got a life to live, which is so much richer than all this argument, coming from ignorance and prejudice?

This day, in this life which you have now, is never going to return to you. Regardless of what you think you will find after the life has passed, if you waste this day, you are deluding yourself with fancy.

Leave people like myself who are homosexual in orientation to live OUR lives as we see fit. Butt out of what is not your business!
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jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years ago
How many men have got themselves to the age around 30-32, having married, raised kids through 10 or 12 years, then find that things are not feeling right?

When they look back they realise they were not being honest with themselves, their fiance, their folks and friends, and they were really getting married because it "was the thing to do?"

Now the marriage is on the rocks, the kids are scared and unhappy, the guy is looking at problem upon problem. He bends over backwards to try and keep things going, yet the reality tells him there is something about himself he cannot change.
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jirelposted 12 years ago
I would support them if they turned into a gay or a lesbian.
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