Leave us alone.

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Mishaposted 16 years ago
LOL Sandy, I am afraid the worst and the only our enemy is inside

And yes, I still love you too - including your worst enemy

Not that I ever seen submissive Sandy, that would be interesting
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  sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  who said anything about enemies? LOL I am my own bestfriend. lol and God is too.
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Mark Knowlesposted 16 years ago

Well, am I still allowed to love you too? Submissive or otherwise. Not going to stop me making fun of your talking snakes though.

Good luck with the forum.
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  BDazzlerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Suppose, just for the sake of differnt thinking that snakes communicate all the time and that they posess an intelligence, perhaps alien to us mammals .... but that at some point in the past our ancestors posessed the ability to have a deeper communication with snakes and all other animals, much like some of the "horse whisperers" only more so ...
  
  Just a thought ... maybe the animals are talking to us all the time, and we just don't understand them all that well.
  
  Maybe St. Francis of Assisi touched on that lost empathy with animals that our "pre-fall" ancsestors had.
  
  Just speculating.
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I can agree with that and have had many experiences denoting such.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Oddly enough - I understand them just fine. But they are not teaching us any morals, they are not tempting us beyond our own desires, and they don't speak English.
  
  Just ask any native American about what the animals can teach us....
  
  I have certainly learned a strong appreciation for the natural world and developed a fascination with nature - from listening to the animals.
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Mark, I agree with you in that respect. Although some Christians would call this New Age.
  Maybe Sandra doesn't like me agreeing with you.......??? I don't know what she expects of me. I am being myself. I don't like things thrust down my throat and when I reatliate--oh that is the problem--I retaliate?
  
  I would rather be with animals than with people because I know what to expect from them and they know what to expect from me.
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  sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Me too, but they certainly did tempt me to run against my own desire to keep moseying down the wooden trail. lol Maybe part of the reason was because they didn't speak english.
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  BDazzlerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  English ... eh? ... Not even King James? Perhaps if I were telling someone what my dog told me, I'd translate to English ... for example ... my dog, did teach me some morals:
  
  1. Never bark when a growl will do.
  2. Never bite when a bark will do.
  3. When someone gives up ... back off.
  4. Always greet your friends enthusiastically.
  
  Snakes, I don't talk or listen to them ... don't trust 'em .... got some cajun friends that talk with gators ... they love 'em but they don't trust 'em.
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  RKHenryposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Big difference between trust and respect. Trusting wild game? Come on. Surely you could use a better analogy.
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  BDazzlerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I probably could, but I'm multi-tasking with a life outside hub pages ... so this was an off the cuff remark, not a researched hub
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  RKHenryposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry BDazzle, I was just messin' with you.
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  BDazzlerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  You got me!
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  RKHenryposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I find your writings to be rather interesting. I'm not sure where you stand. But interesting none the least.
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  BDazzlerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I have this annoying habbit of not fitting anybody's mold ... and trust me, it annoys me most of all
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  sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I have the same habit doesn't annoy me at all but sometimes it sucks.
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  BDazzlerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  LOL well, for me, when it sucks it's annoying ... And I've long past given up trying ot fit you into a mold Sandy!
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  RKHenryposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  and yet the world still twirls.
  For me, I blame it on youth.
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  sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, a jello mold my size might be hard to find.
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Me too!! Oh, me too.
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  sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Ever wonder why God made people like us?
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  sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  LOL... Ever wonder why God made people hate us? LOL. ;p
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  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Who hates you? Although I see you are blaming it on god now
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  BDazzlerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Pretty sure it was a joke, Mark ... like vs. hate ... may have mis-interpreted your response though
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  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  that is what the smilies are for
  
  Jokes.
  
  Although Sandra has decided I am liar now so who knows............... (no smiley)
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  BDazzlerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry wasn't sure ...
  
  British smilies being harder to read for me than their American counterparts
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Hahahaha, just as those early church father's mis interpreted those words on those written pages so long ago.
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aka-djposted 16 years ago
So, is everyone finished? Do we get left alone?
I repeat, if we evolved this way (being "religious") we have a right to be left alone. We can't help it. Let us enjoy (our delusion) life.
Agreed?
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Lady Guinevereposted 16 years ago
Nothing is black and white in the world or even in hell or heaven. There be many colors, just as there are many people, beliefs, religions, food, plants, animals and everything in between. Religion tends to put everything as black or white---but never can they see the whole rainbow.
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Williamjordanposted 16 years ago
I will not debate the realness of God but I will say and my own life I have come to rely on a power greater than me an I choose to call that power God.Because being and addict I realize that my drug of choice was that power for a long time.I love the programs that follow the 12 steps because we do not discuss religon we pratice spritually and leave you to form your own belife. Just remain open minded and if you are suffering try to find a power greater then your self implment the steps and your live reley on that power and share the results.
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Lady Guinevereposted 16 years ago
When people call you Satan, is that not a Hate thing? Her and I have been drug through the mud and called Satan and for what???????? Is that not Hate? I don't beleive she nor I nor Bdazzler were joking.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Depends who is doing the calling. If you hate satan - I guess so. If you are like me and you laugh at the very idea, it might be in jest.
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  BDazzlerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I knew you weren't. To answer your question ... "Why did God make people like us?" ... That might be a good topic for a hub sometime. I wasn't really joking about not fitting a mold ... I've also been thinking about writing a hub to respond to RK's observation about not beign quite sure where I stand .
  
  Don't know about Sandy ... she will say as much with a joke as a serious comment so she can be laughing and serious all at the same time.
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  aka-djposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Mould? What mould? Is there a mould? I bet a lot of people want others to fit into one.
  
  I heard a statement that I never forgot, but love.
  
  "God threw away the mould, when he made (you), me!" U-neek, dat's wat I IZ! :
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  SirDentposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
  
  Mar 8:33 But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.
  
  Jesus Himself spoke those words.
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  aka-djposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Like Peter, we too can choose who's words we utter. No doubt I have "served" satan often. Not that desire to, but you know what I mean?
  Just goes to show how much I need a Saviour!
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Sir Dent you seem to be one of those who like to put yourself on the perverbial pedestal and think that just becasue the church you attend is the only one that deserves attention., Well they are not and You nor I know 100% that those writing in those books you claim is the absolute truth and everything else is not. There be many books that were not chose to be in those books by men who were under the scrutiny of the Emporers who just wanted an open door to have persmission (if they even needed that) to control and rule the world. I am sure you will keep saying that I am Satan and that I follow him, but I say to you:
  
  FORGIVE THEM FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO
  LOVE ONE ANOTHER AS THYSELF
  DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO TO YOU
  YOU SHALL REAP WHAT YOU SOW
  LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF.
  
  Sticks and Stones -AN NAME CALLING-----------THEY ALL HURT!
  
  Would it make YOU feel any better if I just told you that I lied about my Rape Experience and that it really was the tool of Satan and that I am not a real Minister and that I will do it your way? Would that give YOU peace of mind knowing that you had converted--or re-converted someone to YOUR Alkmighty Jealous and Merciless God whom will and Likes to drop people to their knees or better yet make them go into a firey pit of eternal damnation. Would you be happy then? My the Kudos you would get to get into Heaven then Huh! Lots I bet.
  
  Well I can't do that because Jesus told me NOT TO LIE and to TELL HIS TRUTH. Ypou may not like it and those who like all the controll will just continue to call me names and the worst of it all are blind as bats when it comes to the REAL LOVE of Jesus Christ!
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Lady Guinevereposted 16 years ago
Sir Dent, You want scripture so here is the whole paragraph so we all can see what Jesus was talking about. Now Jesus was talking to Peter, is that not correct? So how does that make everyone a Peter?

You post scripture without the whole meaning as if you were hiding something.

Yes it is boring to read scriptures and I am sorry that some of you will not take the time to read them here and then again I expect Sir Dent and a few others to tell me what I am reading and how I understand them is not correct and they are the only ones who are-------that is BS and they know it!

Here is for all to see:

Matthew 16
1And the Pharisees and Sadducees having come, tempting, did question him, to shew to them a sign from the heaven,

2and he answering said to them, `Evening having come, ye say, Fair weather, for the heaven is red,

3and at morning, Foul weather to-day, for the heaven is red -- gloomy; hypocrites, the face of the heavens indeed ye do know to discern, but the signs of the times ye are not able!

4`A generation evil and adulterous doth seek a sign, and a sign shall not be given to it, except the sign of Jonah the prophet;' and having left them he went away.

5And his disciples having come to the other side, forgot to take loaves,

6and Jesus said to them, `Beware, and take heed of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees;'

7and they were reasoning in themselves, saying, `Because we took no loaves.'

8And Jesus having known, said to them, `Why reason ye in yourselves, ye of little faith, because ye took no loaves?

9do ye not yet understand, nor remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many hand-baskets ye took up?

10nor the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?

11how do ye not understand that I did not speak to you of bread -- to take heed of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees?'

12Then they understood that he did not say to take heed of the leaven of the bread, but of the teaching, of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

13And Jesus, having come to the parts of Cesarea Philippi, was asking his disciples, saying, `Who do men say me to be -- the Son of Man?'

14and they said, `Some, John the Baptist, and others, Elijah, and others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets.'

15He saith to them, `And ye -- who do ye say me to be?'

16and Simon Peter answering said, `Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.'

17And Jesus answering said to him, `Happy art thou, Simon Bar-Jona, because flesh and blood did not reveal [it] to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens.

18`And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;

19and I will give to thee the keys of the reign of the heavens, and whatever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever thou mayest loose upon the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens.'

20Then did he charge his disciples that they may say to no one that he is Jesus the Christ.

21From that time began Jesus to shew to his disciples that it is necessary for him to go away to Jerusalem, and to suffer many things from the elders, and chief priests, and scribes, and to be put to death, and the third day to rise.

22And having taken him aside, Peter began to rebuke him, saying, `Be kind to thyself, sir; this shall not be to thee;'

23and he having turned, said to Peter, `Get thee behind me, adversary! thou art a stumbling-block to me, for thou dost not mind the things of God, but the things of men.'

24Then said Jesus to his disciples, `If any one doth will to come after me, let him disown himself, and take up his cross, and follow me,

25for whoever may will to save his life, shall lose it, and whoever may lose his life for my sake shall find it,

26for what is a man profited if he may gain the whole world, but of his life suffer loss? or what shall a man give as an exchange for his life?

27`For, the Son of Man is about to come in the glory of his Father, with his messengers, and then he will reward each, according to his work.

28Verily I say to you, there are certain of those standing here who shall not taste of death till they may see the Son of Man coming in his reign.'
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  SirDentposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I am not getiing into it with you. Believe what you will. I was only trying to help.
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Lady Guinevereposted 16 years ago
Mark 8
1In those days the multitude being very great, and not having what they may eat, Jesus having called near his disciples, saith to them,

2`I have compassion upon the multitude, because now three days they do continue with me, and they have not what they may eat;

3and if I shall let them away fasting to their home, they will faint in the way, for certain of them are come from far.'

4And his disciples answered him, `Whence shall any one be able these here to feed with bread in a wilderness?'

5And he was questioning them, `How many loaves have ye?' and they said, `Seven.'

6And he commanded the multitude to sit down upon the ground, and having taken the seven loaves, having given thanks, he brake, and was giving to his disciples that they may set before [them]; and they did set before the multitude.

7And they had a few small fishes, and having blessed, he said to set them also before [them];

8and they did eat and were filled, and they took up that which was over of broken pieces -- seven baskets;

9and those eating were about four thousand. And he let them away,

10and immediately having entered into the boat with his disciples, he came to the parts of Dalmanutha,

11and the Pharisees came forth, and began to dispute with him, seeking from him a sign from the heaven, tempting him;

12and having sighed deeply in his spirit, he saith, `Why doth this generation seek after a sign? Verily I say to you, no sign shall be given to this generation.'

13And having left them, having entered again into the boat, he went away to the other side;

14and they forgot to take loaves, and except one loaf they had nothing with them in the boat,

15and he was charging them, saying, `Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod,'

16and they were reasoning with one another, saying -- `Because we have no loaves.'

17And Jesus having known, saith to them, `Why do ye reason, because ye have no loaves? do ye not yet perceive, nor understand, yet have ye your heart hardened?

18Having eyes, do ye not see? and having ears, do ye not hear? and do ye not remember?

19When the five loaves I did brake to the five thousand, how many hand-baskets full of broken pieces took ye up?' they say to him, `Twelve.'

20`And when the seven to the four thousand, how many hand-baskets full of broken pieces took ye up?' and they said, `Seven.'

21And he said to them, `How do ye not understand?'

22And he cometh to Bethsaida, and they bring to him one blind, and call upon him that he may touch him,

23and having taken the hand of the blind man, he led him forth without the village, and having spit on his eyes, having put [his] hands on him, he was questioning him if he doth behold anything:

24and he, having looked up, said, `I behold men, as I see trees, walking.'

25Afterwards again he put [his] hands on his eyes, and made him look up, and he was restored, and discerned all things clearly,

26and he sent him away to his house, saying, `Neither to the village mayest thou go, nor tell [it] to any in the village.'

27And Jesus went forth, and his disciples, to the villages of Cesarea Philippi, and in the way he was questioning his disciples, saying to them, `Who do men say me to be?'

28And they answered, `John the Baptist, and others Elijah, but others one of the prophets.'

29And he saith to them, `And ye -- who do ye say me to be?' and Peter answering saith to him, `Thou art the Christ.'

30And he strictly charged them that they may tell no one about it,

31and began to teach them, that it behoveth the Son of Man to suffer many things, and to be rejected by the elders, and chief priests, and scribes, and to be killed, and after three days to rise again;

32and openly he was speaking the word. And Peter having taken him aside, began to rebuke him,

33and he, having turned, and having looked on his disciples, rebuked Peter, saying, `Get behind me, Adversary, because thou dost not mind the things of God, but the things of men.'

34And having called near the multitude, with his disciples, he said to them, `Whoever doth will to come after me -- let him disown himself, and take up his cross, and follow me;

35for whoever may will to save his life shall lose it; and whoever may lose his life for my sake and for the good news' sake, he shall save it;

36for what shall it profit a man, if he may gain the whole world, and forfeit his life?

37Or what shall a man give as an exchange for his life?

38for whoever may be ashamed of me, and of my words, in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man also shall be ashamed of him, when he may come in the glory of his Father, with the holy messengers.'
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aka-djposted 16 years ago
If we don't go with THE BOOK, we are liable to fall for all sorts of things. I am always wary of "personal revellations" and "criticism" of the the Word. It claims what it claims, and is "sealed". It is not to be added to, nor taken away from. If only we could implement all it teaches, we'd be better for it. (never mind straying from it).
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Onusonusposted 16 years ago
Why debate with atheists at all? there is no edification in it nor is the spirit of God on either side.
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Lady Guinevereposted 16 years ago
Sir Dent,
Trying to help?, by calling me Satan. I brought the whole of the scripture up for you to see that Jesus was in fact talking to Peter about him being as Satan. Now Satan was the adversary FOR God not AGAINST God. You can beleive what you want to believe and what you have been told to believe. You totally disregarded my question: Does not doing as you think mean that everyone who doesn't is Peter? In those scriptures of yours Jesus was also going against the Church Clergy of those days--as he still is. Jesus doesn't like Doctrine and Traditions-yet that is all the church does now. Is that following Jesus? I think not, it is doing the exact opposite of what he wants. This is not my way, but Jesus's way. Turn that around all you want too, it is what it is.

AKA-DJ,
You said the book is complete and nothing can be added nor taken away from it. If that were true then all the books that were written would be in all the Bibles. Point---The Catholic Bible has 4 more books then the KJV--whose is correct--the Catholic Bible becasue it has more books and it also states that nothing is to be taken away or added, or the KJV which does NOT have those extra books?
Who wrote that there is to be no books added or taken away and when was that written and by whom and for what or whose purpose?

~~~~~~~~~~~
When Sir Dent first was coming down hard on me for he thinks that I am going against the church or Jesus becasue he says that I am teaching more than Jesus taught. Well --does that Bible tell that we will teach more and greater things then he ever did? Does the book also tell us that all the miracles and things that Jesus did are NOT in that book? A book cannot be complete if not everything is included in it....................correct?
If Jesus himself siad that we would do more than him, who and why is everyone afraid of what I am teaching...............Jesus said we would in that book you think is the only thing in the world to be read and listened too. I AM doing as Jesus wants-according to the Bible. I know you all will find a way and a single scripture verse to prove otherwise. That is what you do best--make fires and not go with what Jesus wants of us--instead go with what he specifically says not to do---go by traditions and church doctrine.

Onusonus,
Read this again and again and again and then tell me I am atheist. Be careful of that slippery slope I an talking about. Doiesn't anyone believe in what Jesus said--Love ______________?
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Onusonusposted 16 years ago
Lady Guenivere
I wasn't implying that you are an atheist, I was merely pointing out the futility of arguing over spiritual matters with people ( in general.......) who do not believe in GOD.
And I believe firmly in the the words of Paul and John..... "All you need is love!"
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I see. Yeah they be good people!
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  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Ah - so any one who does not believe in god cannot be spiritual. Interesting. As far as I am concerned - the opposite is true. Anyone who has had a genuine spiritual experience - the last thing they need is a god or special underpants.
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I was wondering where you went!
  
  Even thought I do believe in a God or Higher Being or somehing like that, I do not comdemn anyone to hell and there si no Satan the way the Christian's use him.
  
  Sir Dent didn't even read nor did he answer any of the questions I posed to him. This only strengthens my posit that he is in a cult. One track mind period. He cannot say that he does not have all the answers or even tries to find them. He will only post scripture without any feeling.
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  MBP42posted 16 years agoin reply to this
  All you need is love but love from whom? and what special underpants??? The devil is real he is not a story book character. The bible warns to beware of the enemy masquerading as a being of light. Beings of light are angels so if we have to beware of enemies masquerading as beings of light then that means satan is real and he is pretending to be something he is not to confuse good people into doing bad things. If there is no God in heaven then please define conscience? Why would we have one if God had not given it to us in the first place?
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  BDazzlerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  It's a Church of Latter Day Saints reference.
  
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_garment
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  RKHenryposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Go easy on MBP42 Mark- I think they are new.
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  What does Satan look like? Doesn't anyone read what I post or do you all like to just pick fights and point fingers?
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  BDazzlerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Kinda like Mark, only cuter.
  
  (sorry, I'm just feeling a bit silly ... it's not 5:00 where I am now, but I feel like it should be.)
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  Mishaposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  LOL that was a good one
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I don't mind a bit! That brings up something else---Did Jesus and God have senses of humor? Surely they did with all these religious nuts!
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  BDazzlerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I'm sure of it ... remember he was Jewish ... so imagine the "Camel through the eye of a needle" line with a Billy Crystal delivery.
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  LOL LOL LOL,
  Now it is written in the book of Gospel of Thomas that he did have a sense of humor.
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  sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Well He thinks my jokes are funny! though He is the author so... yeah God definitely has a sense of humor.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Well, I am pretty cute in the flesh........
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  God must have thought we all were cute in the flesh too or he would have made us with clothes on.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Last time I voluntarily entered a church (no wedding, funeral whatever) I was thrown out for not wearing enough clothes.
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  What were you wearing --a Thong!
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  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Shorts - no shirt. Lichfield Cathedral. Very expensive, upmarket church that bled the parish dry to build it many years ago. Far as I was concerned - it was just as much my church as theirs - but they threw me out.
  
  I was only young (and fit enough to wander around shirtless in the summer) and it was yet another defining moment in my coming to the conclusion that the christian religion is political garbage.
  
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  You would get a good laugh at my hub: http://hubpages.com/hub/DooWop--DooWop--DooWop
  
  I have hear homilies/sermons about how one is supposed to dress for Church and also had experience an elderly lady cry because the people don't dress in their best clothes for church. What the heck does it matter what you dress or not dress in--God doesn't care what you wear just what is in your soul/mind. It is the people or doctrine of men that care--they only want you rmoney anyway! LOL
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  Onusonusposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  So you go around looking for fights?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  No. What makes you say that?
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  Onusonusposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  You didn't own that property what makes you think you have the right to disrespect somone elses house?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  It is public property. Owned by the community. Therefore it is just as much mine as anyone's. At least that is what I thought. Turned out the church owned it.
  
  And how did I disrespect it exactly?
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  Onusonusposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  you refused to follow the rules obviously, sounds like you set yourself up for disapointment on purpose.
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  So is it God's rule or church rule that dictates how one is to dress for church?
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  BDazzlerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Well... there is a such thing as respect... I am not Jewish and I eat pork all the time, but I would never bring a ham and cheese sandwich into a synogogue. Also, out of respect, I would wear the cap. God's rule or theirs? They think it's God's. I think it's their's. But it's their house, so I would follow their rules.
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Well in the Bible it is God's house, not theirs.
  God made us all naked, so we should go to church in HIS house naked....LOL
  No one would be hiding anything from anybody then! LOL
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  BDazzlerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Trust me, on this, you want me wearing clothes.
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  
  Maybe church should only be held in the warmer months!!
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  Onusonusposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  If you recall, after they were naked the next thing he did was to clothe them!!!
  Regardless, the proponents of said organization to whom hold the legal rights to the establishmed property in lieu of previous ownership organize their meeting houses with a set standard of guidelines in proportion to modes of behavior and dress. And therefore should be adheared to by the partons thereof.
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  sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  OMG, you guys are funny today! I ask people to take off their shoes when they enter my house. It's not a law and I don't own my apartment but I do dwell here and people that come to my dwelling are asked to take off their shoes.
  
  There is nothing spiritual about it... actually it's so they don't drag dirt onto the carpet so that I don't end up paying for it when I leave. Plus, no one has ever said just flat out "no" it aint your house etc... though I do have some friends that always give me lip about.. lol.
  
  But it usually goes something like, "really your serious, you really want me to take my shoes off." Then I laugh and say yes and then they do even if they don't want to because they respect that I have a reason for it.
  
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  Onusonusposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  You probably wouldn't want Mark's skid marks on your couch either......
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  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I would like to bet you don't have a great big sign outside that says "Strangers welcome. Drop in and see our fantastic collection of art work in this communal building that everyone in the parish paid for and is no one's private residence. We are just here to help. Plenty of room for all. Come on in and come as you are. All welcome. * small print * Except for this list of rules that we don't advertise but might upset an invisible magical super being on the sky - he is easily embarrassed. "
  
  And I wouldn't have dreamed of sitting on anyone's couch with no special underpants on.
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  sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  lol
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  Onusonusposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Exodus: ch 40.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  It wasn't a tent and they didn't provide coats. Now if they had said - "here, please put this coat on................."
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  Onusonusposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  You were speaking of the garment of the holy priesthood.
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  You mean the ones that Jesus doesn't like.
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  BDazzlerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Well.... it wasn't the priesthood per-se' or the garments per-se' that Jesus didn't like ... it was the attituded of superiority that came with it. He was like "Dude it's just clothing get over yourself!"
  
  Is that what you were saying?
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  That was waht I was trying to get to, but failed to do so. Thank you for filling that "missing" part in!
  
  Madmac, I joined your fanclub and left mail for you there!
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  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  You have to have holes in this tent?
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  Onusonusposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Read the whole chapter then comment.
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Why don't you give us a summary of what you think it says.
  
  I don't know what ED is either! LOL
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  Onusonusposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  It is the garment which Aaron recieved for the priesthood to perform temple ordinances.
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  Mishaposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  ED? Aaron? You lost me completely
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  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Me too.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  There is nothing holey in my shorts. And I certainly see no relevance to our previous discussion. Or are you saying that there was an invisible super being living there that I should have been respectful of because he gets embarrased that his creation is shirtless?
  
  Do you have any original thoughts? You know - that you came up with yourself.
  
  chapter 7.
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  Onusonusposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  you keep bringing up my undies in a somewhat uninformed manner. Im sure that you get tired of being compared to Carl Marks.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Well I was in shorts when I was denied entrance to the tabernacle and I was going for funny.....
  
  Go ahead and call me a commie - that is what religionists often do. I am still waiting for an original thought though. Any time......
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Why don't you just ansswer the question?
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  Onusonusposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  didn't realize that I was on trial,
  Let's see... the origional question........ Hmmmmmm. Oh yes "Invisible super being" I would say that there is no unalterable decree made in heaven by which we are bound to pay respects to diety, however upon entrance to a building owned by a certain organization it would be emcumbant for patrons to adhear to the dress code. You dont think that you could just stroll into the publically owned White House in your robe and slippers? Or Buckingham palace adorned in your daisey dukes?
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  sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I think I would totally try that one... Walk into the white house in my robe and slips. Then I would tell Obama, Oh I am sorry, I couldn't read the sign because education is crap in the states and um.. well... can I have a million dollar? LOL
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  Onusonusposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Very valid however you might get the boot.
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  BDazzlerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  As far as Mark is concerned, when someone comes in with a strong belief, they put themselves on trial ... it's not a bad thing ..
  
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  Onusonusposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Well this conversation has not been the best of what one might think of as indicative to the spiritual matter wouldn't you say???????????
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  BDazzlerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I don't exactly know what you're trying to say ... I don't expect non-believers to believe, so I don't expect them to act like they believe. I don't expect them to know what I know or to have studied what I have studied.
  
  I consider hub pages to be a "Mars Hill" scenario.
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  Onusonusposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  At least they can't throw a rock at you through the computer screen.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  You think I would throw a rock at you because you believe in something I don't?
  
  Gosh - you really do think you are better than me. And you wonder why you feel you are on trial.
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  Mark Bennettposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe it's projection.
  
  After all, Jews, Christians and Muslims have thrown a lot of rocks over the years, despite the "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" comment from the Prophet Jesus.
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  Onusonusposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Mark of course I do not think that I am better than you, I just happen to believe that my version of the truth is the truest.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  What has that got to do with throwing rocks?
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  Onusonusposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Reverting back to the Mars hill sscenario suggested by Bdazzler, I would say that this happened often in those days however it's more like darts now adays.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry - you lost me. The only Mars Hill I know is in Athens and I don't know of any stone throwing.
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  BDazzlerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Nobody threw rocks at Paul on Mars Hill. Mars Hill was an open forum. Paul approached them respectfully and found common ground. It starts at Acts 17:22.
  
  The rock throwing was done by the religious leaders (early part of Acts 17) not the intellectuals on Mars Hill.
  
  Acts 17:32-34 32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked, while others said, "We will hear you again on this matter." 33 So Paul departed from among them. 34 However, some men joined him and believed, among them Dionysius the Areopagite, a woman named Damaris, and others with them.
  
  I have been both mocked by some and others have asked to hear more.
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  BDazzlerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Nobody threw rocks at Paul on Mars Hill. Mars Hill was an open forum. Paul approached them respectfully and found common ground. It starts at Acts 17:22.
  
  The rock throwing was done by the religious leaders (early part of Acts 17) not the intellectuals on Mars Hill.
  
  Acts 17:32-34 32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked, while others said, "We will hear you again on this matter." 33 So Paul departed from among them. 34 However, some men joined him and believed, among them Dionysius the Areopagite, a woman named Damaris, and others with them.
  
  I have been both mocked by some and others have asked to hear more.
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  Onusonusposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I haven't read that stuff in a while I just remembered them geting rocks thrown at them.
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  Onusonusposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  How dare you question my knowledge of scripture!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It says right here! or here maybe, or...or.... Nevermind.
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  BDazzlerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Actually I assumed you had a great knowledge of scripture .... and still do.
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  Onusonusposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Well thanks dude!
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  This is just a test to see if this goes through because it seemed to me that it was only happening when I replied to your posts. I hpe it works!
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  It worked!! Now lets get back to the subject!!
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Why do you believe you have the truest version?
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  What makes you think that you have the truest version?
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  Onusonusposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Because I have studied and prayed about it and recieved an answer in my heart that it is true.
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Not everyone's truth is as yours. God made many different people so it is only right to think that each person has a part of that truth and as each facet of a diamond has a different veiew or sparkle so as is every person on this planet.
  
  What have you studied?
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Not everyone's truth is as yours. God made many different people so it is only right to think that each person has a part of that truth and as each facet of a diamond has a different veiew or sparkle so as is every person on this planet.
  
  What have you studied?
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  Onusonusposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  yes but the truth is not according to the rule of majority or minority, nor is it in the eye of the beholder.
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Who says?
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  Onusonusposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I do, we all have the right to embrace all and every item of truth, without limitation or without being circumscribed or prohibited by the creeds or suporstitious notions of men, or by the dominations of one another, when that truth is demonstrated to our minds, and we have the highest degree of evidence of the same.
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Then with all you have just stated every single person on this Earth has the truth.
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  Onusonusposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Inherrantly yes.
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Inherently and otherwise. Have you watched any of the videos I presented here?
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  Onusonusposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  No I hav not, my dialup doesn't fair off to well for that sort of thing.
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I see. I also gave information that you can get it from Netflix or Blockbuster.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Oh? In your heart? Well, that is different.........
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  Onusonusposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Fools mock.......
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  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Oh I see. Well in that case...........
  
  Although I think you might be mistaken. Fools think they have all the answers. In your heart - that makes it true.
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  Onusonusposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  No but I here by bequeath to you your ability to think differently. Perhaps in the next life I will baptize you.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I don't need you to bequeath me anything thanks - I can already think differently - and there is no next life.
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  Onusonusposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  It was a joke dude.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  OH OK - in that case - LOL
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  Onusonusposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  P.S. Yes there is..........................................Last word! Good night folks!
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  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Sleep tight. Last, last word - because you believe it in your heart? OK then...... must be true.
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  Onusonusposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Why you so and so.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  OK then - Last, last, last word. I mean really.
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  BDazzlerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Hmmm.... I'm not sure why you're concerned about rocks, physical or metaphorical. There are plenty of Christians -- Somalia pops immediately to mind - who are really persecuted - you're simply being challenged by people with different ideas and different world views.
  
  Nobody is making you do it. When Peter and John were beaten for speaking of Jesus, they thanked God for the privilege. They prayed for their captors. Peter's prison guard saw his love for him and decided to follow Jesus.
  
  I can't see anywhere in the Bible where "condemning the heathens" was ever advocated or used. The techniques you are using were used by Paul with people he had a pre-existing relationship with and had already recognized his authority.
  
  Jesus established his authority by washing feet.
  
  I have not seen anywhere where you have established servant-authority nor have I seen where you been truly persecuted. I have seen you being hyper-critical of everyone who's interpretation of scripture is not like yours. Not only in the forums which is more of a "free for all" ... But, I have seen you enter another's house (hub) and criticize based on your personal interpretations. I'm not sure how that's less disrespectful than going into a church without a shirt.
  
  Matthew 5:44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
  
  Mark 7:9: "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.
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  BDazzlerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Hmmm.... I'm not sure why you're concerned about rocks, physical or metaphorical. There are plenty of Christians -- Somalia pops immediately to mind - who are really persecuted - you're simply being challenged by people with different ideas and different world views.
  
  Nobody is making you do it. When Peter and John were beaten for speaking of Jesus, they thanked God for the privilege. They prayed for their captors. Peter's prison guard saw his love for him and decided to follow Jesus.
  
  I can't see anywhere in the Bible where "condemning the heathens" was ever advocated or used. The techniques you are using were used by Paul with people he had a pre-existing relationship with and had already recognized his authority.
  
  Jesus established his authority by washing feet.
  
  I have not seen anywhere where you have established servant-authority nor have I seen where you been truly persecuted. I have seen you being hyper-critical of everyone who's interpretation of scripture is not like yours. Not only in the forums which is more of a "free for all" ... But, I have seen you enter another's house (hub) and criticize based on your personal interpretations. I'm not sure how that's less disrespectful than going into a church without a shirt.
  
  Matthew 5:44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
  
  Mark 7:9: "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.
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  Onusonusposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I have condemned noone you precieve too much not only that but I was talking about you. You were the one who brought it up.
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  Mishaposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  You cracked me up Mark
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  God did NOT clothe them. Adam and Eve covered themselves with Fig leaves because they were embarrassed.
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  Onusonusposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Gen 3:21"Unto Adam and unto his wife did the Lord make coats of skins and clothed them."
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  So he killed animals to give his humans clothing? Which version is that in? The KJV isn't the most reliable version. Let's ask BDazzler what his Hebrew scholars have to say about that.
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  It does say that but in another version (there are two version in the bible about the Eden account), it says they got fig leaves for themselves. There are paintings depicting this also.
  That is why the bible is confusing too for most people who don't take what is told to them as literal truth.
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  BDazzlerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  When they had eaten the fruit and realized shame for the first time, they made fig leaves. They were hiding from God and each other.
  Then when God found them, He said, "Hey what's the problem? Why are you hiding?"
  So they said, "We were ashamed!"
  And God said, "Uh ... oh ... tell me what happened...."
  So they started pointing fingers and blaming each other ...
  And God said, "OK... That's enough! Here's the deal ... it's gonna be rough now, but I still love you! So, to handle your shame, I'm going to give you somethng a little sturdier than fig leaves."
  
  God then killed an animal and gave them it's skin for clothing.
  
  This is pretty mucht the same in Hebrew, YLT, KJV, NIV.
  
  BDaz interpretation to follow:
  
  It was not because he valued the animal so little ... quite the contrary ... the killing of an animal is called a "sacrafice" for a reason .. it was to show how seriously he took what became a rift in the relationshp between men and women, between people and God and between people and animals.
  
  It was truly a dark day for creation. Yet, there was a promise of brighter things to come.
  
  There is a primal "wild side" to God that most people aren't comfortable with. In Revelation is called both the Lion of Judah and the Lamb that was slain.
  
  God is present in all creation ... even and perhaps especially ... the unpleasant parts.
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  sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Hmmm, I thought it meant our actual skin, the skin of animals.... um... mortal skin.
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Another thing about God killing animals to clothe his chosen ones--what does that say to those who are Vegetarians becasue God told them different?
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  BDazzlerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  One must be careful about generalizations on God's will. God was very clear that certain individuals (Samson and John the Baptist for example) shoud have different dietary and personal habits for specific purposes.
  
  It is vastly wrong for a vegetarian to tell me that God has forbidden me to eat meat when he has specifically told me otherwise. It would be very wrong of me to try to make a carnivore out of someone God told to abstain from meat. On the other hand, there are those who abastain from meat not because God said, but because it makes them feel more righteous than all of us dirty carnivores.
  
  ... same with alcohol...
  
  I was a virtual teatotaler until God told me to drink Jack Daniels. People may joke about it, and I do, too .. but when God revealed His reasons, it was once again clear that His ways are far above ours. And there is more we don't understand than most of us realize.
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  You better watchout for that type stuff or you might be accused of doing it for your SELF and Not because God told you to.......................know what I mean eh?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  
  Oh I see. I went for a run on a sunny day without a shirt on. I happened to see something interesting that I thought might be worth a look - and got thrown out of a church for being too much in god's image. Not shameful enough perhaps?
  
  That was the last time I voluntarily entered a church - except for hatches, matches and dispatches.
  
  Looks like you are the one looking for a fight. What's wrong - knickers in a twist?
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  LondonGirlposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Do you still rock up for hatches, matches and dispatches?
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  aka-djposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I see you stayed out. LOL
  The rebel has "shown them". LOL
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus was a rebel. Does that make a difference?
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  BDazzlerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Ummm... I know of some people who have felt very spritual with special underpants. I just heard an old pod cast of Wait Wait Don't Tell me that talked about some oppressive goverment forbidding fur lined underwear.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Politics
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dagny rothposted 16 years ago
While I am not an atheist; I think fanaticism is truly abhorrent.

http://hubpages.com/hub/Satire-Armageddon
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knolyourselfposted 16 years ago
"Anyone who has had a genuine spiritual experience - the last thing they need is a god or special underpants."
Agreed. God doesn't need to come into it.
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  countrywomenposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Well another way to ponder Spirit + Ritual = SpiRitual
  hence Spirit (Individual conscious/Soul consciousness) + Ritual (Religious/Moral Instructions) <=> Spiritual (Higher/God realization/consciousness)
  Hence the logic that some folks do have God or Higher realization without undergoing any particular process/instructions shouldn't be discounted in anyway by others and vice versa.
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knolyourselfposted 16 years ago
"if we have to beware of enemies masquerading as beings of light then that means satan is real and he is pretending to be something he is not to confuse good people into doing bad things."
Kind of a swamp don't you think. Anything can be anything else.
Anybody can be the devil at any time. Not what I would call safe streets.
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Onusonusposted 16 years ago
Don't be jealous of my undies!!!
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Paragliderposted 16 years ago
Oddly enough, I wrote some light verse on this subject some years ago. May I?

How Very Odd

How very odd.
I'd go so far as call it rude
to walk in here so nearly nude
and this the house of God.

A tattered hat -
she might have bought it from a witch
and underneath it, not a stitch,
We don't approve of that.

And wouldn't you
describe it as a dreadful lack
of decency - the plaintiff smack
of buttocks on the pew?

I hear the Dean
politely asked her to reveal
a little less, or to conceal
herself behind the screen.

Cruel man - she sobbed -
to make me answer to your laws,
especially since it's because
of me your church is mobbed.

Maybe this was your sister, Mark?
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I liked that poem. Thank you Paraglider.
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  Paragliderposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks LG - just a bit of fun, that one
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  BDazzlerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  We have a very loose dress code at the chruch I attend. I typicaly wear blue jeans and flip flops, and happily sit next to someone wearing a coat and tie and niether of us is particularly worried about it... We've seen some pretty "out there" dress ... I suspect, though that if someone showed up as LG suggests, there would be a discrete offer to help them cover up. I doubt they would be asked to leave.
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  Paragliderposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Well, here in Qatar we have to be aware of dress code, even in the shops. And more so during Ramadan, where it is expected that you wear full sleeves (even at 45 Celsius!)
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  BDazzlerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  A young man (a good guy and an elder's son) was wearing a shirt with the quote from Ben Franklin about beer being proof of God's love.
  
  Someone said something to him ... "You wore that to church?!!" ... He said, "Why not? It's about God's love."
  
  Her: "It's about beer!"
  Him: "So?" -- very wide eyed and innocent, you gotta know this kid to fully appreciat it.
  Her: "But it's alcohol!"
  Him: "Jesus drank wine, that's alcohol."
  Her: "But not beer."
  Him: "I don't understand the difference."
  
  She just shook her head and walked away. (Nobody "offical" got involved, it was just a discussion between members.) BUT I loved how unoffended the kid was. (Guess he's not really a kid, ... he's like 22 or so.)
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  sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Well if a dude walked into a church naked and tried to sit next to me. I don't think I would ask him to leave. I would probably either a) smile from ear to ear and giggle and probably admire the person (no not the parts) for being so brave. or b) I would pray to be blind.
  
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  
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Lady Guinevereposted 16 years ago
What is it about the human body that is so disgusting that one Has to cover up. God made us in is image and he didnt think it was disgusting or he would have made us in another image. Man did it in Eden. I think it is possible that this might have been the sin instead of eating some fruite from some tree that was put there to trick us. Our body is the temple and is in his image but church and society sees it as disgusting and vile and evil.................something just does not seem right with that. Evil, Devil, Satan that has us cover up what is of God is mroe like it.
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  BDazzlerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Well ... if you think the Michelin Man is sexy ... I'm your guy ... personally I'm greatful for dress codes.
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Mishaposted 16 years ago
Oh, don't get me started on Americans and shoes....

But naked dress code in a church can definitely get me interested in religion
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  sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  just imagine what Heaven would be like then. doh!
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  Mishaposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  70 plus virgins I guess
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  sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  unless you prefer .umm.. well... you get what I mean. .
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  Mishaposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  You meant boys?
  No, I am a lesbian!
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  gamergirlposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  This stuff, LG.
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gamergirlposted 16 years ago
In Heaven, nobody gets ED.
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  Mishaposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  What's ED?
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  gamergirlposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  To give a humorous aside - Mark, will you help Misha out with this one? It's something a father and son should talk about.
  
  *runs away laughing*
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  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I would love to but..........
  
  I don't know what ED is either
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madmacposted 16 years ago
Hello to all believers and non-believers particularly believers. As you may know I am 50 and up until 4/5 years ago I was a true believer in the heavenly father until I actually took the time [considerable time] to read the Bible to which God and faith is based. It is then I realized that the book is a work of fantasy created by man which made me angry as I spent my life truly believing he exsisted. I stayed in a bad marriage for 20 yrs because I as a true believer thought I was married in the eyes of God plus other things I did based on my beliefs. Now 100% of those that believe in him and the Bibles teachings when asked why they believe say Faith. Since the Bible is what faith is based on and that book is without question fictional [assuming anyone's actually taken the time to read it] faith cannot be used as a reason. My brother is a good man and strong in his beliefs but when I asked him lastnight why he believes like 100% of those asked the same question, he became upset that I was questioning his beliefs. All I asked was simply why to which he replied say it with me faith. I responded by saying that I believe in my earthly father because he's there. As I said any of you believers on this hub and those out in the world that debate their reasons why they believe can't be true believers or have faith as they wouldn't have to debate the reasons why they believe. I can give you based the the "good book" many reasons why I don't believe but heres the question without using the book or faith as a reason please tell me why you believe in something NO_ONE can prove exsisted? If you can't come up with a logical reason then at least admit that your as they say "hedging your bets" Keep in mind that I am in no way questioning your beliefs or require you to debate them I just simply would like to know why so I may understand. I am not on here because I am doughting Gods exsistance as I said based on the book.... Thank you
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  BDazzlerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  You have presumed much about the reasons for some people's belief. I am, however truly sorry for your pain.
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  madmacposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you Bdazzler but I am not in any way in pain I am just upset with myself for believing in something that doesn't exsist and not believing in what counts myself. However I'll get over it and with reference to my presuming anything, I am without question not presuming anything I am simply stating fact no-one when asked can give a logical reason WHY they believe without using the book as reference. A book that as I said if anyone actually took the time to read would know is fictional. I am not an atheist as up until a few years ago no-one believed stronger than I and no you don't have to go to church or spread the word to believe because if they did most catholics couldn't believe.
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  BDazzlerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I have told people that I have seen God and he has spoken to me. Some think I'm crazy, others believe me. And I'm OK with eiteher one. (Take a look at my conversation with PGrundy in the God is the Greatest Scientist thread in the Science Forum for one such story.)
  
  Yes, the Bible is part of my belief. I've shared some other reaons in my hubs. I do not think that "The Bible Tells Me So" is sufficent or that you should follow the bible just because I said so.
  
  Incidenlty I was in a marriage for 14 years fell apart faith involved etc. Grew up baptist and was pretty much shunned ... I'm bot a big fan of the institudion called "The Catholic Church" but I like a lot of individual Catholics.
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Me too! If you read my hubs you will begin to see where I am coming from and I am called Satan for what I have seen and changed my mind about the Bible and religions in general..
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  sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  A lot of people don't use the Bible as a reference to why they believe. however, any answer given wouldn't be a good enough one for people who don't believe or in your case use to believe.
  
  When I first read the bible I thought it was made up too, and a load of crap and frankly a little disgusted by what it said and what was actually going on. Ask Mark, I wanted to burn it! lol
  
  but...my belief in God on my own was enough to make me wonder and well... I am a naturally curios person always asking questions, never stopping just because someone didn't like it.
  
  I think people get offended when asked why they believe because they already know the outcome.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Welcome to being able to cast off the fantasy. Now you can begin writing your own version of events and make decisions based on your own reasoning. Don't be angry - I came to the same conclusion many years ago - after reading the bible for what it is. It even says in the bible that there is no god - no jesus but yourself - and no need for a church or blind faith.
  
  I am sorry your brother is angry with you though. That just means he puts his mis-begotten faith before real life - like many.
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  madmacposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you Sandra but if you believe as I do about the the book then how can you believe in God? God and faith [religious faith] is based on the book so what if you don't mind is your faith in God based on? You say that no-one can give me an answer to that question as the answer wouldn't satisfy me. That isn't true as it to me is a simple question, if someone believes in something they should at least be able to say why. It seems to me that it always points towards "hedging your bets" and theres nothing wrong with that if people could only admit to it. I think they don't because they don't want to be percieved as hypocrites which in my opinion is wrong as if they really have faith and believe they shouldn't care what other people think. With reference to your statement about people already knowing the outcome when asked why they believe I'm not sure what you mean. Bdazzler and Lady Guinevere there's nothing wrong with believing you see or hear God as who can really say you don't. But based on the fact that both of you have little or no belief in the bible or it's teachings and God doesn't exsist without the book, what then do you both base your faith on? Please don't think that I am making fun or putting down your beliefs but since you both believe so strongly I am just curious. Religion and people's faith in it fascinates me and in the end the question is always why and thanks Mark
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Madmac, I don't mind you *asking" me anything of what I beleive. It is those who TELL me what it is that I experienced verses what I experienced in m own way. My experience was a rough one and I did much reading in that Bible to get my answers, but finally there wasn't an answer in that book, but within me. The God doesn't have to have anything in this life for us to beleive in. We are part of it as it is part of us and there is no separation...........at all. Faith----is who I AM and what I can do.......not what God can do. Faith and Religion are totally different things and those of Religion can't see the difference.
  To know where I am coming from and what my journey has been like you would have to read my hub: http://hubpages.com/hub/How-Rape-Brough … -The-Light
  Read all the comments too as they are very interesting at how people deal with those who don't do as they do.
  I still don't have all the answers. I only know what I have experience verses what those religious people think and they are not even close. I learn about things everyday............the Bible, where it came from, how it got it's messages, who the peole where who put it all together, why they chose some and not all the texts and much more. I think that is the answer to life, to learn and share --we are the Ripple Effect in this big vast pond, but I don't think we are the only one's in the pond that interact with our thoughts and words and deeds. I have found there are some things in the Bible that are like disconnected and then there are others that make sense only if you have gone to other places to learn before and after you read them. I hope this makes some kind of sense to you and others too here.
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  sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Because God existed to me before I ever read it.
  
  life and love, and good. then I read the book, the Bible, the Quar'an , the Naghammadi etc. and looked first for life, love and good.
  What happens when the honest answer a person can give is, "because I do"? Are you expecting something else? If so, what exactly are you expecting?
  Admit what exactly? We are all hypocrites honey. We are all just players in life. We all inevitably want what is good but in some cases we aren't really sure what is good so we just make a decision.
  
  *story* I had a friend, he is a really great guy but he made a lot of bad choices. I am his friend and when he was doing things I didn't agree with, well I just accepted him and understood from knowing him that in his heart, he was a good guy just very misunderstood. So while people hated him, while he disappear for a couple of days and appear again beaten up or sick or something... while to be honest he probably did earn cause he had a mouth on him... nonetheless he was my friend.
  
  However eventually he started to drag me into his world and I was being caught up in the affairs of which I was only guilty by association. I didn't do the things he did and I was always willing to "have his back no matter what", until eventually my own life and my personal affairs were being subject to his actions in which case I needed to make a decision.
  
  For this guy, he was so used to people abandoning him that he really didn't care anymore and I feel guilty about ever having to tell him that I cannot hang out with him anymore. It wasn't good for "me" to keep allowing his actions to take its toll on my family. Without all the details, it was something that I really had to do, against what I really wanted.
  
  It does make me a hypocrite. I am expected to stay by people like him no matter what because that is what Jesus would do right? Well, I am not Jesus and to someone else I am a hypocrite and even to myself I feel this way but I stuck in there as long as I could until it started to bring me down too.
  
  So tell me Madmac, honestly, does this make me a hypocrite? I believe in does in shallow terms but in my heart I did what I felt was best and often times it is against what you want to do and what you have to do, wouldn't you agree?
  
  because unless we can read your mind and know what you want to hear to make you a believer yourself, then all words are arbitrary. They know this. What would you like to hear? I will tell you exactly what you want to hear but you're waiting for a miracle... aren't you?
  
  Suppose for instance that these people say this because they know something that you don't know yet but explanations are often times harder to express than people figure it would be. The greatest message in the Bible isn't written and they are trying very hard to express what they read, yes that is right, read.
  
  Its is very difficult to give people the eyes to see it when you still believe that the "eyes" on on your head.
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  sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Because God existed to me before I ever read it.
  
  life and love, and good. then I read the book, the Bible, the Quar'an , the Naghammadi etc. and looked first for life, love and good.
  What happens when the honest answer a person can give is, "because I do"? Are you expecting something else? If so, what exactly are you expecting?
  Admit what exactly? We are all hypocrites honey. We are all just players in life. We all inevitably want what is good but in some cases we aren't really sure what is good so we just make a decision.
  
  *story* I had a friend, he is a really great guy but he made a lot of bad choices. I am his friend and when he was doing things I didn't agree with, well I just accepted him and understood from knowing him that in his heart, he was a good guy just very misunderstood. So while people hated him, while he disappear for a couple of days and appear again beaten up or sick or something... while to be honest he probably did earn cause he had a mouth on him... nonetheless he was my friend.
  
  However eventually he started to drag me into his world and I was being caught up in the affairs of which I was only guilty by association. I didn't do the things he did and I was always willing to "have his back no matter what", until eventually my own life and my personal affairs were being subject to his actions in which case I needed to make a decision.
  
  For this guy, he was so used to people abandoning him that he really didn't care anymore and I feel guilty about ever having to tell him that I cannot hang out with him anymore. It wasn't good for "me" to keep allowing his actions to take its toll on my family. Without all the details, it was something that I really had to do, against what I really wanted.
  
  It does make me a hypocrite. I am expected to stay by people like him no matter what because that is what Jesus would do right? Well, I am not Jesus and to someone else I am a hypocrite and even to myself I feel this way but I stuck in there as long as I could until it started to bring me down too.
  
  So tell me Madmac, honestly, does this make me a hypocrite? I believe in does in shallow terms but in my heart I did what I felt was best and often times it is against what you want to do and what you have to do, wouldn't you agree?
  
  because unless we can read your mind and know what you want to hear to make you a believer yourself, then all words are arbitrary. They know this. What would you like to hear? I will tell you exactly what you want to hear but you're waiting for a miracle... aren't you?
  
  Suppose for instance that these people say this because they know something that you don't know yet but explanations are often times harder to express than people figure it would be. The greatest message in the Bible isn't written and they are trying very hard to express what they read, yes that is right, read.
  
  Its is very difficult to give people the eyes to see it when you still believe that the "eyes" on on your head.
  reply report
  0
  sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Because God existed to me before I ever read it.
  
  life and love, and good. then I read the book, the Bible, the Quar'an , the Naghammadi etc. and looked first for life, love and good.
  What happens when the honest answer a person can give is, "because I do"? Are you expecting something else? If so, what exactly are you expecting?
  Admit what exactly? We are all hypocrites honey. We are all just players in life. We all inevitably want what is good but in some cases we aren't really sure what is good so we just make a decision.
  
  *story* I had a friend, he is a really great guy but he made a lot of bad choices. I am his friend and when he was doing things I didn't agree with, well I just accepted him and understood from knowing him that in his heart, he was a good guy just very misunderstood. So while people hated him, while he disappear for a couple of days and appear again beaten up or sick or something... while to be honest he probably did earn cause he had a mouth on him... nonetheless he was my friend.
  
  However eventually he started to drag me into his world and I was being caught up in the affairs of which I was only guilty by association. I didn't do the things he did and I was always willing to "have his back no matter what", until eventually my own life and my personal affairs were being subject to his actions in which case I needed to make a decision.
  
  For this guy, he was so used to people abandoning him that he really didn't care anymore and I feel guilty about ever having to tell him that I cannot hang out with him anymore. It wasn't good for "me" to keep allowing his actions to take its toll on my family. Without all the details, it was something that I really had to do, against what I really wanted.
  
  It does make me a hypocrite. I am expected to stay by people like him no matter what because that is what Jesus would do right? Well, I am not Jesus and to someone else I am a hypocrite and even to myself I feel this way but I stuck in there as long as I could until it started to bring me down too.
  
  So tell me Madmac, honestly, does this make me a hypocrite? I believe in does in shallow terms but in my heart I did what I felt was best and often times it is against what you want to do and what you have to do, wouldn't you agree?
  
  because unless we can read your mind and know what you want to hear to make you a believer yourself, then all words are arbitrary. They know this. What would you like to hear? I will tell you exactly what you want to hear but you're waiting for a miracle... aren't you?
  
  Suppose for instance that these people say this because they know something that you don't know yet but explanations are often times harder to express than people figure it would be. The greatest message in the Bible isn't written and they are trying very hard to express what they read, yes that is right, read.
  
  Its is very difficult to give people the eyes to see it when you still believe that the "eyes" on on your head.
  reply report
  0
  sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Because God existed to me before I ever read it.
  
  life and love, and good. then I read the book, the Bible, the Quar'an , the Naghammadi etc. and looked first for life, love and good.
  What happens when the honest answer a person can give is, "because I do"? Are you expecting something else? If so, what exactly are you expecting?
  Admit what exactly? We are all hypocrites honey. We are all just players in life. We all inevitably want what is good but in some cases we aren't really sure what is good so we just make a decision.
  
  *story* I had a friend, he is a really great guy but he made a lot of bad choices. I am his friend and when he was doing things I didn't agree with, well I just accepted him and understood from knowing him that in his heart, he was a good guy just very misunderstood. So while people hated him, while he disappear for a couple of days and appear again beaten up or sick or something... while to be honest he probably did earn cause he had a mouth on him... nonetheless he was my friend.
  
  However eventually he started to drag me into his world and I was being caught up in the affairs of which I was only guilty by association. I didn't do the things he did and I was always willing to "have his back no matter what", until eventually my own life and my personal affairs were being subject to his actions in which case I needed to make a decision.
  
  For this guy, he was so used to people abandoning him that he really didn't care anymore and I feel guilty about ever having to tell him that I cannot hang out with him anymore. It wasn't good for "me" to keep allowing his actions to take its toll on my family. Without all the details, it was something that I really had to do, against what I really wanted.
  
  It does make me a hypocrite. I am expected to stay by people like him no matter what because that is what Jesus would do right? Well, I am not Jesus and to someone else I am a hypocrite and even to myself I feel this way but I stuck in there as long as I could until it started to bring me down too.
  
  So tell me Madmac, honestly, does this make me a hypocrite? I believe in does in shallow terms but in my heart I did what I felt was best and often times it is against what you want to do and what you have to do, wouldn't you agree?
  
  because unless we can read your mind and know what you want to hear to make you a believer yourself, then all words are arbitrary. They know this. What would you like to hear? I will tell you exactly what you want to hear but you're waiting for a miracle... aren't you?
  
  Suppose for instance that these people say this because they know something that you don't know yet but explanations are often times harder to express than people figure it would be. The greatest message in the Bible isn't written and they are trying very hard to express what they read, yes that is right, read.
  
  Its is very difficult to give people the eyes to see it when you still believe that the "eyes" on on your head.
  reply report
  0
  sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Because God existed to me before I ever read it.
  
  life and love, and good. then I read the book, the Bible, the Quar'an , the Naghammadi etc. and looked first for life, love and good.
  What happens when the honest answer a person can give is, "because I do"? Are you expecting something else? If so, what exactly are you expecting?
  Admit what exactly? We are all hypocrites honey. We are all just players in life. We all inevitably want what is good but in some cases we aren't really sure what is good so we just make a decision.
  
  *story* I had a friend, he is a really great guy but he made a lot of bad choices. I am his friend and when he was doing things I didn't agree with, well I just accepted him and understood from knowing him that in his heart, he was a good guy just very misunderstood. So while people hated him, while he disappear for a couple of days and appear again beaten up or sick or something... while to be honest he probably did earn cause he had a mouth on him... nonetheless he was my friend.
  
  However eventually he started to drag me into his world and I was being caught up in the affairs of which I was only guilty by association. I didn't do the things he did and I was always willing to "have his back no matter what", until eventually my own life and my personal affairs were being subject to his actions in which case I needed to make a decision.
  
  For this guy, he was so used to people abandoning him that he really didn't care anymore and I feel guilty about ever having to tell him that I cannot hang out with him anymore. It wasn't good for "me" to keep allowing his actions to take its toll on my family. Without all the details, it was something that I really had to do, against what I really wanted.
  
  It does make me a hypocrite. I am expected to stay by people like him no matter what because that is what Jesus would do right? Well, I am not Jesus and to someone else I am a hypocrite and even to myself I feel this way but I stuck in there as long as I could until it started to bring me down too.
  
  So tell me Madmac, honestly, does this make me a hypocrite? I believe in does in shallow terms but in my heart I did what I felt was best and often times it is against what you want to do and what you have to do, don't agree.
  
  because unless we can read your mind and know what you want to hear to make you a believer yourself, then all words are arbitrary. They know this. What would you like to hear? I will tell you exactly what you want to hear but you waiting for a miracle... aren't you?
  
  Suppose for instance that these people say this because they know something that you don't know yet but explanations are often times harder to express than people figure it would be. The greatest message in the Bible isn't written and they are trying very hard to express what they read, yes that is right, read.
  
  Its is very difficult to give people the eyes to see it when you still believe that the "eyes" on on your head.
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  82
  BDazzlerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I'm sorry I gave you that impression. Actually I have a very strong belief in the Bible. I just believe that the bible is misused more than it is used. I only use scripture in the public forums when:
  
  A. Speaking to someone else who believes it.
  Or
  B. When it is appropriate in context of the discussion.
  
  I just don't assume that just because I believe it's true that everybody else does.
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Lady Guinevereposted 16 years ago
Signs, Sign, Signs-------
....."and the sign said long haired freeky people need not apply" ---------------get the full meaning:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1Q7cP3ij5g
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88
gamergirlposted 16 years ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erectile_dysfunction
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I know what that is, but wasn't sure how it fit in this conversation.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Ah - I didn't even know such a thing existed
  
  What was with Aaron and the underpants thing?
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I wrote a hub about it and the reason why :
  http://hubpages.com/hub/Why-Pornography … etely-True
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  Mishaposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I am wondering too
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Lady Guinevereposted 16 years ago
and here are the lyrics:

And the sign says "No long hair freaky people need not apply"
So I put my hair under my hat and I went in to ask him why
He said you look like a fine outstanding young man I think you'll do
So I took off my hat I said "Imagine that Huh Me working for you"
CHORUS:
Signs Signs Everywhere there's signs
Blocking up the scenery Breaking up my mind
Do this Don't do that Can't you read the sign
And the sign says "Anybody caught trespassing will be shot on sigh"
So I jumped the fence and I yelled at the house
What gives you the right To put up a fence And keep me out
Or to keep Mother Nature in
If God was here He'd tell it to your face Man You're some kind of sinner
CHORUS:
Oh Say now mister Can't you read
You got to have a shirt and tie to get a seat
You can't watch No You can't eat You ain't supposed to be here
And the sign says "You gotto have a membership card just to get inside" Huh
And the sign says "Everybody welcome Come in Kneel down and pray"
But then they passed around a plate at the end of it all
And I didn't have a penny to pay
So I got me a pen and paper And I made up my own little sign
I said Thank you Lord for thinking about me I'm alive and doing fine
CHORUS:
CHORUS:
--Scribe
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0
sandra rinckposted 16 years ago
Because God existed to me before I ever read it.

life and love, and good. then I read the book, the Bible, the Quar'an , the Naghammadi etc. and looked first for life, love and good.
What happens when the honest answer a person can give is, "because I do"? Are you expecting something else? If so, what exactly are you expecting?
Admit what exactly? We are all hypocrites honey. We are all just players in life. We all inevitably want what is good but in some cases we aren't really sure what is good so we just make a decision.

*story* I had a friend, he is a really great guy but he made a lot of bad choices. I am his friend and when he was doing things I didn't agree with, well I just accepted him and understood from knowing him that in his heart, he was a good guy just very misunderstood. So while people hated him, while he disappear for a couple of days and appear again beaten up or sick or something... while to be honest he probably did earn cause he had a mouth on him... nonetheless he was my friend.

However eventually he started to drag me into his world and I was being caught up in the affairs of which I was only guilty by association. I didn't do the things he did and I was always willing to "have his back no matter what", until eventually my own life and my personal affairs were being subject to his actions in which case I needed to make a decision.

For this guy, he was so used to people abandoning him that he really didn't care anymore and I feel guilty about ever having to tell him that I cannot hang out with him anymore. It wasn't good for "me" to keep allowing his actions to take its toll on my family. Without all the details, it was something that I really had to do, against what I really wanted.

It does make me a hypocrite. I am expected to stay by people like him no matter what because that is what Jesus would do right? Well, I am not Jesus and to someone else I am a hypocrite and even to myself I feel this way but I stuck in there as long as I could until it started to bring me down too.

So tell me Madmac, honestly, does this make me a hypocrite? I believe in does in shallow terms but in my heart I did what I felt was best and often times it is against what you want to do and what you have to do, don't agree.

because unless we can read your mind and know what you want to hear to make you a believer yourself, then all words are arbitrary. They know this. What would you like to hear? I will tell you exactly what you want to hear but you waiting for a miracle... aren't you?

Suppose for instance that these people say this because they know something that you don't know yet but explanations are often times harder to express than people figure it would be. The greatest message in the Bible isn't written and they are trying very hard to express what they read, yes that is right, read.

Its is very difficult to give people the eyes to see it when you still believe that the "eyes" on on your head.
reply report
0
sandra rinckposted 16 years ago
Because God existed to me before I ever read it.

life and love, and good. then I read the book, the Bible, the Quar'an , the Naghammadi etc. and looked first for life, love and good.
What happens when the honest answer a person can give is, "because I do"? Are you expecting something else? If so, what exactly are you expecting?
Admit what exactly? We are all hypocrites honey. We are all just players in life. We all inevitably want what is good but in some cases we aren't really sure what is good so we just make a decision.

*story* I had a friend, he is a really great guy but he made a lot of bad choices. I am his friend and when he was doing things I didn't agree with, well I just accepted him and understood from knowing him that in his heart, he was a good guy just very misunderstood. So while people hated him, while he disappear for a couple of days and appear again beaten up or sick or something... while to be honest he probably did earn cause he had a mouth on him... nonetheless he was my friend.

However eventually he started to drag me into his world and I was being caught up in the affairs of which I was only guilty by association. I didn't do the things he did and I was always willing to "have his back no matter what", until eventually my own life and my personal affairs were being subject to his actions in which case I needed to make a decision.

For this guy, he was so used to people abandoning him that he really didn't care anymore and I feel guilty about ever having to tell him that I cannot hang out with him anymore. It wasn't good for "me" to keep allowing his actions to take its toll on my family. Without all the details, it was something that I really had to do, against what I really wanted.

It does make me a hypocrite. I am expected to stay by people like him no matter what because that is what Jesus would do right? Well, I am not Jesus and to someone else I am a hypocrite and even to myself I feel this way but I stuck in there as long as I could until it started to bring me down too.

So tell me Madmac, honestly, does this make me a hypocrite? I believe in does in shallow terms but in my heart I did what I felt was best and often times it is against what you want to do and what you have to do, don't agree.

because unless we can read your mind and know what you want to hear to make you a believer yourself, then all words are arbitrary. They know this. What would you like to hear? I will tell you exactly what you want to hear but you waiting for a miracle... aren't you?

Suppose for instance that these people say this because they know something that you don't know yet but explanations are often times harder to express than people figure it would be. The greatest message in the Bible isn't written and they are trying very hard to express what they read, yes that is right, read.

Its is very difficult to give people the eyes to see it when you still believe that the "eyes" on on your head.
reply report
0
sandra rinckposted 16 years ago
Because God existed to me before I ever read it.

life and love, and good. then I read the book, the Bible, the Quar'an , the Naghammadi etc. and looked first for life, love and good.
What happens when the honest answer a person can give is, "because I do"? Are you expecting something else? If so, what exactly are you expecting?
Admit what exactly? We are all hypocrites honey. We are all just players in life. We all inevitably want what is good but in some cases we aren't really sure what is good so we just make a decision.

*story* I had a friend, he is a really great guy but he made a lot of bad choices. I am his friend and when he was doing things I didn't agree with, well I just accepted him and understood from knowing him that in his heart, he was a good guy just very misunderstood. So while people hated him, while he disappear for a couple of days and appear again beaten up or sick or something... while to be honest he probably did earn cause he had a mouth on him... nonetheless he was my friend.

However eventually he started to drag me into his world and I was being caught up in the affairs of which I was only guilty by association. I didn't do the things he did and I was always willing to "have his back no matter what", until eventually my own life and my personal affairs were being subject to his actions in which case I needed to make a decision.

For this guy, he was so used to people abandoning him that he really didn't care anymore and I feel guilty about ever having to tell him that I cannot hang out with him anymore. It wasn't good for "me" to keep allowing his actions to take its toll on my family. Without all the details, it was something that I really had to do, against what I really wanted.

It does make me a hypocrite. I am expected to stay by people like him no matter what because that is what Jesus would do right? Well, I am not Jesus and to someone else I am a hypocrite and even to myself I feel this way but I stuck in there as long as I could until it started to bring me down too.

So tell me Madmac, honestly, does this make me a hypocrite? I believe in does in shallow terms but in my heart I did what I felt was best and often times it is against what you want to do and what you have to do, don't agree.

because unless we can read your mind and know what you want to hear to make you a believer yourself, then all words are arbitrary. They know this. What would you like to hear? I will tell you exactly what you want to hear but you waiting for a miracle... aren't you?

Suppose for instance that these people say this because they know something that you don't know yet but explanations are often times harder to express than people figure it would be. The greatest message in the Bible isn't written and they are trying very hard to express what they read, yes that is right, read.

Its is very difficult to give people the eyes to see it when you still believe that the "eyes" on on your head.
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sandra rinckposted 16 years ago
Because God existed to me before I ever read it.

life and love, and good. then I read the book, the Bible, the Quar'an , the Naghammadi etc. and looked first for life, love and good.
What happens when the honest answer a person can give is, "because I do"? Are you expecting something else? If so, what exactly are you expecting?
Admit what exactly? We are all hypocrites honey. We are all just players in life. We all inevitably want what is good but in some cases we aren't really sure what is good so we just make a decision.

*story* I had a friend, he is a really great guy but he made a lot of bad choices. I am his friend and when he was doing things I didn't agree with, well I just accepted him and understood from knowing him that in his heart, he was a good guy just very misunderstood. So while people hated him, while he disappear for a couple of days and appear again beaten up or sick or something... while to be honest he probably did earn cause he had a mouth on him... nonetheless he was my friend.

However eventually he started to drag me into his world and I was being caught up in the affairs of which I was only guilty by association. I didn't do the things he did and I was always willing to "have his back no matter what", until eventually my own life and my personal affairs were being subject to his actions in which case I needed to make a decision.

For this guy, he was so used to people abandoning him that he really didn't care anymore and I feel guilty about ever having to tell him that I cannot hang out with him anymore. It wasn't good for "me" to keep allowing his actions to take its toll on my family. Without all the details, it was something that I really had to do, against what I really wanted.

It does make me a hypocrite. I am expected to stay by people like him no matter what because that is what Jesus would do right? Well, I am not Jesus and to someone else I am a hypocrite and even to myself I feel this way but I stuck in there as long as I could until it started to bring me down too.

So tell me Madmac, honestly, does this make me a hypocrite? I believe in does in shallow terms but in my heart I did what I felt was best and often times it is against what you want to do and what you have to do, don't agree.

because unless we can read your mind and know what you want to hear to make you a believer yourself, then all words are arbitrary. They know this. What would you like to hear? I will tell you exactly what you want to hear but you waiting for a miracle... aren't you?

Suppose for instance that these people say this because they know something that you don't know yet but explanations are often times harder to express than people figure it would be. The greatest message in the Bible isn't written and they are trying very hard to express what they read, yes that is right, read.

Its is very difficult to give people the eyes to see it when you still believe that the "eyes" on on your head.
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sandra rinckposted 16 years ago
Because God existed to me before I ever read it.

life and love, and good. then I read the book, the Bible, the Quar'an , the Naghammadi etc. and looked first for life, love and good.
What happens when the honest answer a person can give is, "because I do"? Are you expecting something else? If so, what exactly are you expecting?
Admit what exactly? We are all hypocrites honey. We are all just players in life. We all inevitably want what is good but in some cases we aren't really sure what is good so we just make a decision.

*story* I had a friend, he is a really great guy but he made a lot of bad choices. I am his friend and when he was doing things I didn't agree with, well I just accepted him and understood from knowing him that in his heart, he was a good guy just very misunderstood. So while people hated him, while he disappear for a couple of days and appear again beaten up or sick or something... while to be honest he probably did earn cause he had a mouth on him... nonetheless he was my friend.

However eventually he started to drag me into his world and I was being caught up in the affairs of which I was only guilty by association. I didn't do the things he did and I was always willing to "have his back no matter what", until eventually my own life and my personal affairs were being subject to his actions in which case I needed to make a decision.

For this guy, he was so used to people abandoning him that he really didn't care anymore and I feel guilty about ever having to tell him that I cannot hang out with him anymore. It wasn't good for "me" to keep allowing his actions to take its toll on my family. Without all the details, it was something that I really had to do, against what I really wanted.

It does make me a hypocrite. I am expected to stay by people like him no matter what because that is what Jesus would do right? Well, I am not Jesus and to someone else I am a hypocrite and even to myself I feel this way but I stuck in there as long as I could until it started to bring me down too.

So tell me Madmac, honestly, does this make me a hypocrite? I believe in does in shallow terms but in my heart I did what I felt was best and often times it is against what you want to do and what you have to do, don't agree.

because unless we can read your mind and know what you want to hear to make you a believer yourself, then all words are arbitrary. They know this. What would you like to hear? I will tell you exactly what you want to hear but you waiting for a miracle... aren't you?

Suppose for instance that these people say this because they know something that you don't know yet but explanations are often times harder to express than people figure it would be. The greatest message in the Bible isn't written and they are trying very hard to express what they read, yes that is right, read.

Its is very difficult to give people the eyes to see it when you still believe that the "eyes" on on your head.
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BDazzlerposted 16 years ago
Sorry about the dupilcate posts guys, something was happening with the browser/site.
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Lady Guinevereposted 16 years ago
The History of God--4000 years:
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6dyoE89pHk

There are many parts, but you can get it all in one dvd from Netflix or Blockbuster or any of those places. It is very interesting on how and ehwn and where it all began and how it has shaped the world of religions.
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Lady Guinevereposted 16 years ago
Angels and Demons Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_T6qP5ug-s

Again you can get this from Netflix or Blockbuster, but the name of it is Angels: Good or Evil.
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Mishaposted 16 years ago
LOL Is THAT your truth?
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  Onusonusposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Sure, God's grace is sufficient for the meek.
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sandra rinckposted 16 years ago
holy moly, sorry about the 10 post of the same thing. I had some troubls on saturday posting. It kept pinging or something anyways I can't delete them either so sorry.
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  SirDentposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  And I thought you were making sure someone read your post.
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Lady Guinevereposted 16 years ago
This forum is all messed up. When it shows a new message what I get is the previous page and I cannot get to the new message unless I go to post a reply to the forum and then read the back messages. It seems to be stuck on page 27 or 26 becasue it shows page 27 in the forum post, but does not show all the messages when you read them.

Is there a way that this can be fixed or a new thread started?
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  SirDentposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  It is showing page 28 now. Earlier in the day the hubtivity page also disappeared for a short time. I suspect it is the servers and will be straightened out before much longer.
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  This is just a test to see if my message can be read right after I post it...
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  It worked!!! Thanks Guys!!
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Lady Guinevereposted 16 years ago
That posted, but my reply to Onurus didn't show up in here that I did. So it is still messed up.
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Raven Kingposted 16 years ago
Where can I get Cliff notes for this topic?
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aka-djposted 16 years ago
Can I safely say you guys will now leave us alone?
I have a proposition for you. You stay out of the religion forum, and we'll stay out of the "science" one.
OOOOOHHHH, that might be a bit hard even for me. How about you?
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  Paragliderposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  The religion forum is a place to discuss "World religions, theology, epistemology, and the philosophy of religion". It is not a place to come to praise your exclusive god. Epistemology (which is a branch of philosophy) is the study of knowledge. In particular, it is concerned with propositional knowledge and how any claim to know something can be justified. My only sadness about this forum is that so few people are genuinely interested in this pursuit, prefering instead to believe their old books.
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  aka-djposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I am only expressing my beliefs, and giving "reason(s)" for them. I see the "evidence", and declare it to be so. So, how does that not fit in with the "spirit" of the forum?
  As for believing in "old books" nothing wrong with that either. Read the latest for all I care. Read any genre too. Just because you don't believe what it says, does not negate its content or impact on those that do believe.
  After all, I can honestly say that I have learned heaps from this forum. From you, specifically the concept of "falsification". Previously I had never heard of it.
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Paraglider, I am with you on this. I would love to learn, but it is peope like AKA-DJ, Sir Dent and Make Money who are wanting to be left alone but at the first chance they will interject their own beliefs as it should be for everyone and it just doesn't work that way. They don't know how to learn other things. They only are taught to defend that religion of theirs at all costs They are they one's who will not let others alone. Twisting words that people say is how they are taught. They don't seem to understand that the One God is not for everyone. and if you believe any different you are show the way to hell and thrown hate and fear towards you. That isn't love at all and they profes that they are showing how to love
  .
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  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  
  This may come as a shock to you aka-dj, but one valid opinion (which I hold) is that religion is not a good thing. Religion comes from a belief in a god. A belief in a god is not a rational decision - regardless of however many times you choose to tell yourself that it is.
  
  People who believe in irrational things do irrational things. Now - you might say that that does not apply to you personally, but I have seen people swept up into a religious fervor whom you would normally think would not do such a thing.
  
  But once you believe that your authority comes from a higher place, that gives you license to do as you see fit regardless of the irrationality of it.
  
  Just look at the fervent, aggressive arguments against abortion that people like sir dent and make money come up with. They are speaking on behalf of a god - and apparently their god thinks that abortion is a sin. Therefore they are trying to have it made illegal and publicly and actively attacking people who have made the difficult decision to have an abortion.
  
  This goes so against what I would expect a loving, caring magical super being to do that it is people like that who helped me form my opinion that the idea of a god is ridiculous, delusional and dangerous.
  
  These people use their "higher authority" as some sort of stamp of approval for their personal opinions. As people have done since we invented god. Sure - it all starts with good intentions. But we both know what the road to hell is paved with
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  Onusonusposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  It is by sad experiance that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority as they suppose, that they will immediately exercise unrightous dominion. hence many are called but few are chosen. No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue in the name of God, only by persuasion, by long suffering, gentleness, and meekness, and by love unfeigned, which will greatly enlarge the soul without hypocracy and without guile. reproving at times with sharpness when moved by the Holy Ghost, but showing afterwards an increase of love towards them, so they will know that my faithfulness is stronger that the chords of death.
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  aka-djposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  This may come as a shock to you too! I agree with you!
  
  Sorry, but this argument is not limited to the "religious". Hitler "swooned" a whole nation of rational, highly educated, otherwise lovely people to do hideous things. Many admitted to the same in hindsite. I think it's called "mob mentality". It is a real example of the "wickedness of man", to do terrible things when given the opportunity.There are probably hundreds of examples of this even today.
  The last part I can only say the following... "greater love has no man, than to lay down his life for His friends. You are my friends...". . . "love your enemies". . . "ought we not to lay down our lives for others?". . . "for God so loved the world, that He gave. . . " I hope you get my point.
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Make Moneyposted 16 years ago
Taken from the other thread.

Anyone from an organized religion that starts a thread in here is subject to thread hijacking with personal attacks on a continual basis. Just look back at the first couple of replies in any of the threads in this Religion forum to prove my point, including this thread. If the administration of HubPages is not going to do anything about it then what's the sense of posting it and what's the sense of anyone from an organized religion spending much time in here.

LG you come in here and claim that you are a Christian, you even used to claim that you are a Christian minister at one time, yet you continually trash Jesus Christ's religion with many of your posts. If you are not a Christian then don't falsely disguise yourself as one. If you plan to continually post false claims about Christianity and trash Christianity then expect debate and disagreements from people that truly are Christians. That's allowed in here, as you can read above. If you get replies to your posts debating and disagreeing with your points then don't consider it a personal attack, people are just trying to correct your mistakes. If you are truly trying to be a Christian then consider the replies to your posts that debate or mostly disagree with your points a form of showing you love. If this is the case you might want to try some reciprocity. If you are not trying to be a Christian but just want to trash it then you are making personal attacks yourself. You claiming that Jesus told us not to read the Bible is just one of your many false claims.
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  An yet you are still doing the name calling and arguing and all that other BS.
  BS, BS, BS--why do yo insist that you are the only one who knows anyting about your religion or any religion. That is a fight in which you are cintinually starting. What gives you the right to 'correct" what YOU think are mistakes when they are not. You are trying to convert me back---well don't. All I see is fear and threats that I will or anyone else who disagrees with you- to go to hell. That is not a debate, my friend. When you can read you Bible for what it is and search beyond your religious dogma then maybe, just maybe, we will have a discussion going and not a fight and eventually name calling.
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  So tell us why I seem to be a threat to you. You don't understand anything about me and you certainly are too lazy to find out. You would rather bait Mark and I. That is not civil and it is asking for a fight, not a discussion. Example: The forum post that is the http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/12725. You really wanted a rise from both of us and ---hahahahahaha- you didn't get one.
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I know you have not read your Bible, else you would know what I am talking about with the thing about not to go by books. You like to twist my words around and it must be fun for you. Jesus did NOT teach by a book and he didn't read the Bible.
  Now it is up to you to find that verse and not me. How else would I have known about it?
  You can make up as much as you want about what posts are about love and which ones that are not. I know what Unconditional love is and I think that all of you are jealous because I do and you only wish you knew.
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knolyourselfposted 16 years ago
"I have a proposition for you. You stay out of the religion forum, and we'll stay out of the "science" one."
You could always move to Utah. That is pretty much a religious state, is it not? Then you can put up border guards and make everyone take a religious test before allowing them in. And portray your love for freedom on all the bill boards.
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  Onusonusposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Ignorant
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SirDentposted 16 years ago
I don't recall fervently arguing about abortion. Show me my fervency.

This is my second post on this thread that I recall makiing. The other one was after LG stated her posts weren't showing up and the pages were wacky.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  http://hubpages.com/hub/whydidntigetachance
  
  Seriously - what? You think each forum and each hub stands in isolation and we are all too stupid to read the other hate you spread? You are a perfect example of why I think religion is disgusting.
  
  Clear?
  
  Don't give me this "I don't recall fervently arguing about abortion. Show me my fervency."
  
  There is your fervency for all to see.
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  MBP42posted 16 years agoin reply to this
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  SirDentposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Did you happen to read that hub to see how fervent it is? I rejected about a dozen commants that dealt with abrotion, but were debating type comments. That huid wasn't written for debate. You really should read before making accusations.
  
  Also one of the questioins I asked didn't get an answer. When is abortion justified?
  
  An example of fervency is this: "I will shoot you and kill you if you go to have an abortion. "
  
  So now we are at the point where you made a false accusation against me. It's ok though, I forgive you.
  
  Next time you want to pull me into one of your debates, at least be a man and do it to my face.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Ah - now you are kidding yourself that producing a photo of a partial birth abortion and expressing the opinions you expressed is not fervency because you do not threaten to kill some one.
  
  You are using that photo in an effort to persuade people that they are wrong in choosing an abortion when you know full well that there is a very big difference between a 6 week old fetus and what you show in your photograph.
  
  Another word for this is lying. But that is OK - as long as it is for jesus.
  
  Yes I Know that hub was not written for debate - it was written so you could ask people " Is abortion ever OK?" and give a clear message that it is not by using that photograph to pretend that all you really want to do is save all these poor children that are murdered.
  
  You are a lying hypocrite and I do not need or want your forgiveness.
  
  I have told you many times - to your face - that you disgust me. You are a pathetic excuse for a human being and people like you convinced me that religion is garbage.
  
  Is it really OK to lie for Jesus? I mean really? Do we really think that lying to get what we want is all right? Should it be OK to use a photograph of a partial birth abortion to try and sway people's opinions?
  
  Is it OK that a hypocritical liar such as sir dent even has an opinion on what a woman should be doing with her body? And then lie by saying some super being in the sky says it is what he should do?
  
  Get the idea?
  
  I reject your condescending false forgiveness as unnecessary and I suggest you go away and think about your real motivations and who really needs to be forgiven.
  
  Or how about you be a man and stand up for your own irrational opinions rather than trying to blame them all on some magical invisible super being in the sky? Take responsibility for your self for a change. Be a real man.
  
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  SirDentposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Have it your way man. Evil produces evil.
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knolyourselfposted 16 years ago
"The mind is a terrible thing to taste!!"
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  Onusonusposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Don't you forget it!
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Onusonusposted 16 years ago
Hi!................

Next page.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  That is a photograph taken from sir dent's hub on abortion. I know it is distasteful, but let's be honest about what is going on here.
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knolyourselfposted 16 years ago
"Next page."
We have an artist.
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  Onusonusposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  My kids just said "Daddy whats that"....
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  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Well, now you know what it is. A photograph taken from sir dent's hub on abortion showing what he wants people to see as far as his god and abortion is concerned.
  
  Sorry your kids saw it.
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  Onusonusposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Thats ok. I think we got the point.
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knolyourselfposted 16 years ago
"My kids just said "Daddy whats that"...."
And what ya tell 'em?
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Onusonusposted 16 years ago
Man I was just talking to my brother about this stuff, he used to live down the street from a family planning clinic, he had to drive by those kind of pictures every day. Pro or con, the pictures are too much.
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Lady Guinevereposted 16 years ago
Sir Dent Wrote in response to Mark:
"Did you happen to read that hub to see how fervent it is? I rejected about a dozen commants that dealt with abrotion, but were debating type comments. That huid wasn't written for debate. You really should read before making accusations.

Also one of the questioins I asked didn't get an answer. When is abortion justified?

An example of fervency is this: "I will shoot you and kill you if you go to have an abortion. "

So now we are at the point where you made a false accusation against me. It's ok though, I forgive you.

Next time you want to pull me into one of your debates, at least be a man and do it to my face."

My interjection..
If the hub wasn't for debat then why have a omment box in the first place?
Yes you certainly do deleted any comments in which YOU find to be debating--other's may not.
You "forgive".... hmm now that is debatable.

Yoiur example of fervency----another side of the same coin----I will let you die to save that baby and then the baby will die if you die and no one wants it.
What would the difference be if the mother miscarried ---the mother's body aborts the baby.
Now how can anyone on here do anything to your face?
Was abortion mentioned in that Bible of yours and what does it say about it?
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Jewelsposted 16 years ago
And therein lies the work of Arhiman, where evil doers have no idea they are doing evil. Blind faith is dangerous, very dangerous. Speaking in the name of God, where in fact they are doing the opposite, exactly the workings of the dark side.
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aka-djposted 16 years ago
Whoa, guys, very heavy stuff, ye?
Maybe this shows why I posted the thread.
As I said, if evolution is a fact, and true, then we "religious" are a sub-species, obviously far less advanced than the non-believer among us. Therefore, please give us room.(it's in our genes)
Or is it the survival of the fittest(strongest)? Wipe out all religion, all believers, and we can finally have a truly secular utopia.
Don't stress, we'll be out of here soon enough. (those of you that are bible scholars, you know what I mean).
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Jewelsposted 16 years ago
Is there going to be a mass exodus of Christians. I'd like to see that happen, would be an interesting event.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I had been waiting for an excuse to use this one
  
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  Jewelsposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  ROFL
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  aka-djposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Many believe so.
  This would be a dichotomy for many. Once the event is past, many will wish they could have been a part of the event, knowing they could have, but now it's too late for it is past.
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  There have been many exodus's in the faith system of anything that came out of the middle east in the days the men were writing their stories. The thing is--that was way before the 1500's when things changed in the Bible and that wasn't the nly time that it changed, It also changed in the 800's. Please do research on that book and the history of such. Blind is correct--or should I say blinded by the early church.
  
  When someone tells a lie and then tells others it is truth and then that gets spread throughout years and years, is it still a lie?
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  Sufidreamerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Very happy to admit that I have never read the Bible and have no intention of doing so.
  
  "Love thy Neighbour" - the only important bit!
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Then you should read my latest hub: http://hubpages.com/hub/Th-Long-And-Winding-Road
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  Sufidreamerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Interesting, LG - skimmed through it, and will sit down with a coffee in a wee while and read it in detail. I take a historical view of Christianity, so it looks like we are on the same wavelength!
  
  To me, it is a historical source, like the Iliad or the Icelandic Sagas - I have no intention of doing this 'scripture' thing. All of the spiritual answers that I need are already within - just a matter of unlocking them!
  
  The sun is out, so I may have to go and sit on the mountain tomorrow
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Yes we may be on the same page or at least in the same chapter. I try not to use scripture but sometimes I am forced to do so becaue that is the only thing these people *want* to understand.
  That sounds like a lovely place to sit. We have cloud cover here. I may go out and sit on my new back deck for a bit myself. This mountain is so beautiful throughout the year, but the Springtime is the best time to sit on a deck among the beauty of the earth (yes, this is a line froma hymn).
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  Sufidreamerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  It is a nice line from a hymn
  
  I have no problem with people interpreting scripture - for folks like yourself and BDazzler, it seems to help the spiritual journey. That is great
  
  Personally, I have always liked early Christianity and the ideals of fellowship and kindness. This was all before the NT existed, and was practiced by people who actually knew Jesus.
  
  The Council of Nicaea, IMO, was where everything started to go downhill......
  
  Misha: Sounds like something that Mel Gibson would say
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Yes it was.. That was when Rome got involved and it became very political. Peter was the one who kept the old ways also known as The Way--from Nazarene. Most religions call all that gnostic, but it was what Jesus taught way before politics got involved. Those religions are also taught that gnostic is wrong and evil...........Peter was the Rock and Foundation of the church........so who are they really listening to because it certainly isn't Peter. Instead of spreading fear for what they don't know they should be getting acqaunted with the real history. Then again they seem to like calling people names and baiting them with their scripture and keeping others in the dark.
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  Sufidreamerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed - I have a lot of time for the Gnostics. Early Celtic Christianity is also interesting, and had a wonderful open nature - they were happy to worship alongside the druids. Sadly, Rome imposed rules and inflexible attitudes.
  
  I tend to ignore the last 1700 years of Christianity - it became (not in every single case!) Christianity, Inc.
  
  Nobody tells me what to believe - it is not really anybody else's business, although I am always open to rational and enlightening debate!
  
  Edit: Misha.
  
  I met Mel Gibson, once. What a tiny little man he is.
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  88
  Jewelsposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  But he looks good on horseback!
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  85
  Sufidreamerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  But I could have picked him up and put him in my pocket
  
  They had to give him a Shetland pony to make him look normal sized.
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  88
  Jewelsposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Oh. LOL, I didn't know that. Darn, there goes the illusion!
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  countrywomenposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Ok just to put this in perspective I checked online and couple of links gave his height as 5' 8"
  
  P.S: Sufi I hope you don't find this info disagreeing with you in anyway. Btw just out of curiosity how tall are you? Since I am 5' 3" and my husband is 5' 8" (I find him tall enough for me)
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  88
  Jewelsposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I'm guessing Sufi is in the 6'4" category and anything under 5'11" is short. 5'8" is tall enough for me too
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  85
  Sufidreamerposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  You are good - absolutely spot on. A drop of viking blood somewhere in my ancestry
  
  CW - no worries - you are never disagreeable. The whole Mel Gibson height thing was a bit of a Scottish joke at the time (to be fair, he was a good sport!) - the historical William Wallace was a giant of a man, at nearly 7'. The newspapers had a lot of harmless fun at Gibson's expense.
  
  5'3 is a good height, the same as my partner. My girlfriend at university was 5'1, so that created a lot of amusement amongst our friends.
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  countrywomenposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Even I felt you must be very tall but didn't want to exactly say it since some very tall people also are touchy about their height (I had a class mate in school and she was 5' 11" but never liked the attention or even a mention of her height).
  
  Btw I am sure you folks make a great pair as well as Lady G. Btw in India there is a very famous bollywood pair of Amitabh Bachan(6' 3") and Jaya Bhaduri (5' 1").
  
  Now can't you tell that I am so dumb when I have to be told that it was a joke
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  93
  Paragliderposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  True. He used to use a two-handed sword single-handed. I've seen one of his swords on display at the Wallace Monument in Stirling.
  
  But the less said about the historical accuracy of Braveheart, the better...
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  Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  You all are funny, my husband is 6'5 and I am a mere 5'
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  Mishaposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Do you mean Mike IS Mel Gibson?
  
  And yeah, emperor Constantine definitely spoiled the party big time - providing it was different before him
  reply report

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