Can what is regarded as moral to followers of one particular religion appear as immoral to followers of another religion?
I do not claim to be "an atheist," although I don't accept the existence of a supernatural god that watches over us. Therefore I have no religion. But for me, incest, rape, ill-treatment of women in any way is immoral. I see any of those offenses as disrespectful, even sometimes cruel, against women, or any person regardless of gender or age.
Why do I see it as immoral? First my genuine concern for the other person's welfare. "Do unto others as you would be done by." I would not like it. Why should I accept anything like it done to my sister or my brother?
Secondly, it does not help to build a supporting community structure. If no one in the community can walk around or sleep in their bed at night feeling safety within the community, then the community will break up. It needs the support of everyone in the community to build up that trust and safety.
I hope this helps you to understand that we all have a part to play, each and every one of us. And it does not depend on any particular religious acceptance, in my honest opinion.
The Jehovah Witnesses considers what a lot of the other religions allow as immoral. The Muslims are worse yet. They kill their daughters for just being with the wrong guy. While they rape children that are not Muslim or not Muslim enough.
But what if an Atheist be happy if something like this be done with his sister or mother or himself/herself or whatever? Then this is not universal answer to this problem, and it solves just your problem.
If the "world" would do this Believers or not, what a different world this would be! No stealing, no murders, no lying, no rape/incest, no selling of drugs, no manipulation, NOTHING but LOVE which is GOD!
Alan, I agree with you all the way! @ Hakemzrman, Even supposed universal truths are not always practiced by followers of a religion, but an atheist's morality is not SUPPOSED to be the same for all atheists/non religious. Non belief isn't a religion
I disagree Words, it does qualify as a religion, or at least a belief system. If you don't believe in a God then you, along with others, believe existence is possible as it exists as an unintended result of causation. That in itself is a belief.
Why are some complacent & fail to adapt to "change?" Life is a "Growing" process but NONE want to "Grow?" If it "rocks your world," "delete it?" No matter, "truth" will win! Better get ready for the "Spiritual" world, it's coming!
The Laws of Cause and Effect apply to everyone, regardless of their religion. Nations that don't tolerate rape and incest are far healthier and more advanced than those that do. All religions were established as an attempt to establish morals. Some people use it to warp it to their purpose, making excuses or sweeping their atrocities under the rug. That does not change the end result. Any religion that tolerates it will ultimately be exposed, and fail.
I do disagree alittle, because incest is legal in the united place (depending on state) but it only extends as far as 1st cousins, no brother and sisters or stuff. Other countries do have it legal, the only thing is it doesnt happen very often.
Also Jonny you would not run into a building of fire , but the greatest life saving thing you could do is communication to call for help.You can not assume that being quiet will save a life, just because someone says be quiet, there is nothing to do
Paula incest till the age of 18 is iligal in Holland. I just read the Dutch law rules. I'm Dutch, Above 18 it's only Punishable if it is a case of force, like a normal case. Incest is not seen as normal in Holland and socially rejected.
Yes, I think it's a good enough reason. Atheist or not the risk of disfigurement to any potential offspring isn't right, morally or otherwise. When you know the risk and the high likelihood of genetic issues then it's your responsibility.
Genetics is your reason, and not vulgar? Knowledge of genetics is recent, and had such knowledge of genetics not come to light I assume you would have no qualm with incest? Foremost Atheists struggle with such morals.
Anthropologists have proved that incest in animals causes better specimens. There's one catch: they kill off the ones who don't turn out good. People once did this too but many atheists want a return to infanticide now. We need compassionate religion
The problem peeples as examples we are not born or equipped with the morals, like language you have to learn From examples like your family and teacher's , why you have education up to certain grades .because you can not learn Solo.
Scripture says Rm 2:14;16 "..we do laws contained "by nature.." so morals are "innate" but "man" estab & not of GOD! Rt morals according to The Gospel of Jesus Christ (v16)! W/O: Ex of "norm" confirms morals!
K&T, You say we must learn right from wrong. I was taught to steal, rape, beat, abuse elderly, break into homes, yet I do none of that, and while I was being taught naturally knew it was wrong. It's built in, not learned.
Abdus, there was a compelling reason not to commit incest before genetics was well-known: instincts. The people you grow up with from infancy to adolescence will (usually) be filed away in the brain's "DO NOT PORK" folder. Works most of the time.
Exactly as peeples said. It "feels" wrong, even if it's taught at an early age. We have a natural sense. It's thought that this is because of a sense of empathy that evolved, which increased survival for those who had it. Evolved? Probably. Random?No
Jpark therefore the scriptures have no value to you or to your interest. That is like You saying you take medicine and you are not sick, but you are neither a doctor or the patient who can say either. The subject has no value to you.
Yeah but then to play devil's advocate, the question is then is it ok for unrelated children raised in the same house, like adopted siblings with different biological parents or step-siblings, to date each other? Also, then what about gay incest?
Rach It depends on 1's ethics, morals, values! Some states recognze "common law" marriage! U introduced as bro/sis all life then marry? To me, unacceptable! Bibles says NO "next of kin!" I say introduced as such, you are! Again,depends on 1's morals
And better HP has the last word, so people that cause trouble based on the freedom of religion are violating ones freedom to speak, so I know my rights and I keep talking as they have free speech as well. You people who are threatening watch.
The other thing here is that by posing this question you're attempting to validate the need for scripture against atheism, suggesting that atheism has no morals without scripture. The interpretation of scripture is the red-herring here, because anyone can, has and does interpret scripture their way in order to go to the extreme. This is where Alan's example of what holds a community together is tested because a manipulator can hold a community together with their interpretation of scripture. To say that a higher power has granted that person the authorization to enforce their interpretation of this, making others submit to incest, rape, poverty and overall indoctrination. So by even posing this question is to try force the vulnerable to submit by using failed logic, would be criminal for taking advantage of the ignorant.
Peeples if you thought it was about survival You would not be hurt or appauld, over the experience and you even named the fact of him being a pastor of this shameless conduct. The point is the truth was not in him, nore God the Father.
Kiss and Tales, you are constantly posting under the wrong persons answer. Do you know how to use the features on Q&A? I suggest that you familiarize yourself with the proper procedure...or everything is going to sound like drivel. Thanks
Well Sayyes my device limits where I can post replies ,I have to use comment space that is available, but I am trying to post direct by addressing the name first. I believe people are posting to me correctly because they are responding to me by sub
And to park you did not read my comment correct on slavery , I said it had a different meaning long ago in the bible, not what people turned it into.it was trading services for a debt. When debt was paid the contract had ended the person left.
Exactly the same as the verses I mentioned - they had a different meaning then, a historical context if you will. Yet are always taken out. U can't insist background is important in a topic that makes Christians look bad, and not in others.
Jpark my proof is not your proof and no matter what you say that is not my conviction or experience. Yours is based on your own conclusions you are in titled to. Next if you do not believe in God then you do not believe he has an Authority for you .
Jon Mark.....Exactly! Babbling rubbish. Repeating the same BULL over & over. Quoting an ancient History Book with ZERO independent thought or any degree of intelligence. Mimicry is for the ignorant. We can ALL copy words. They're to be pitied
And in the end @fpherj48, it's those who are indoctrinated who are forcing us to submit to their lies. Fight them in your communities, fight them in the streets, bring down their leaders and distribution centers, NOW!
I too hope atheists would discourage incest the same way those that follow a religion do. In all fairness most people regardless of their religious or non-religious beliefs do discourage incest. But, atheists struggle to justify why incest is wrong.
Sayyes I decided to dedicate A hub to you Based on your interesting question, I can not explain your question in 250 word count but I must cover some very important point I will post to you tonight or in the morning Thanks again. KT.
Norine you have not read all Abdus posted statements , he hopes too atheist would discourage incest. But his point of questions is to get opinions on the subject through an atheist View. Because they are not guided by law and scrolls as others can
All this presumption that because you believe in a god you are better than others. We hear it from both of the major religions. When you get to the point that you can state your beliefs and leave it at that, without further judgement, then...bingo!
Well Johnny I agree with you on some points, but I must admit example is the best teacher , I have yet to meet a very nice , un angry, polite atheist who does not attack another for there beliefs, I have had that experience more , where is the love?
K&T I have not attacked anyone for their belief, only for their presumption that their believe needs to be imparted to and held by others However, questioning a belief for its efficacy surely is not attacking it? Is it reasonable? If so, I resp
K&T: I understand the question, but reaffirming Abdus' statement "Morals are dictated by religion..." using Scripture! Studied Scripture & found Rm 2:14-16 "innate" but w/o belief in GOD ea estab own & why diff but GOD is only RT!
Slavery was part of the world humans/free will created. God simply worked within that. In that age you were either the one in power, or enslaved by the one in power. Not much of an option when you have thousands of people to feed. Wasn't a bad option
Ok, whew!. For a minute I thought there was an all powerful God allowing such injustice. Now I see that, conversely, we are talking about a God who is powerless against free will(Kryptonite)and He just falls right in line with evil human constructs
Correct, John. But the rigidly indoctrinated mind can assuage cognitive dissonance by simply automatically accepting the illogical premise that: A thing can be (A) and (not A) at the same time..willing themselves to believe it til their last breath
It is that stubborness and backward thinking that brings me to want to see the end of religion. It would be one thing if a intelligent conversation and respectable discord took place, but sadly it is on the contrary, and that leads to agressive acts
The Borg is the same as the religious mind...a collective, programmed with a directive to believe in what authority has directed. It doesn't matter what logic proposes, they will assimilate. There was no god, until authority DIRECTED us to believe.
The antithesis of progress is born in the minds of the collective. If you blindly follow without research and refuse to be openminded, youre stilting and insulting your own intelligence Glinging to something despite research contrary stints humanity
Okay what was the reason with the pharaoh in egypt. Like what was the point of that, to show gods wrath? Im sorry but i have seen no real bigger reason, its not pharaohs fault the jews had short term memory lose with god his power
It has always amazed me how a God who allows free will is exactly like a God that is imaginary.Indoctrination is so powerful that it seems to severe the synapses and redirects the brain to obstinate blind faith. We need to stop doing this to our kids
And getit You yourself are an Author of hubs and a books , you write here on hub pages would it be fair to say you do not exist do not read your books or hubs, because you have not been seen , I respect you write here and I interact never seeing you
But based upon sound evidence, it is prudent to have faith that I exist. I have faith that there is a person representing every pen name on Hubpages. No, doubt, I could meet u for coffee tomorrow.Your God can only live inside your head. He's not real
getitrite, how exactly have you determined God's not real? Because there's no 'natural' evidence of something 'supernatural'? That's an expected result. So is a natural world that formed itself. What would evidence of supernatural even look like?
But things that do occur that we haven't determined a natural cause for are just assumed to be something we haven't figured out yet. All supernatural would look like is a gap in our understanding. There's plenty of those.
Headly, I used the same method that you used to determine that Santa isn't real. I'm presuming that you do not believe in Santa. If our parents had confessed that they deceived us about God the same way they did about Santa, we wouldn't be debating
Getitrite, explaining how presents got under the tree and explaining how existence happened is two very different things. Our parents could only accomplish one of those. What alternative explanation explains existence? That it just happened this way?
Yep. It just happened this way. Entropy and chaos at work. Saying evil and nonsensical things like angler fish and guinea worms were supposedly designed by a benevolent deity is madness. Well, claiming a deity exists at all is madness anyway, but...
Entropy and chaos, huh? That's what resulted in us humans existing with hopes and dreams and aspirations and a favorite color? Okay. That's nothing more than a rationality to justify ignoring the blatantly obvious. There's obvious intent behind it.
Every animal has aspirations and dreams; some are just more complex or long-term than others. And they are a survival mechanism indicative of a functioning brain, which is an advantageous trait passed down through the process of natural selection.
Uh huh. Yeah, it's always a survival characteristic. So what about favorite colors and songs? Survival too? Entropy and chaos led to the formation of survival instincts that include dreams? My dog has dreams and aspirations? How do you know?
Headly, I think you are now moving the goalpost. We are not talking about pondering existence, but about made up Gods that appear in holy books. Those Gods are just as made up as Santa. Just as Santa doesn't bring presents, they don't answer prayers.
getit true Santa is not real, but Santa costume represents the thought of gifts and a story of a saint. And people continued this custom , really the letters adjusted Spells satan, and there is a satan, that breeds evil, this is true God is true
JC: Too smart for ur own good? "If u blindly follow w/o research & refuse to be openminded, youre stilting and insulting your own intelligence." Can ur intell outwit God's? Supernatural vs "physical!" SPIRITUAL JOURNEY!
Getitrite, not moving goalposts. Existence exists and therefore requires an explanation. That God that's spoken about is claimed to be the creator. The whole claim is that they were "made up" to explain what's not understood. Goalpost is stationary.
Yet life is not "stationary" for death is inevitable! Don't forget, we're a spirit (which never dies) housed in a body! What then if you're wrong? Are u so "self sufficient?" What about the after life or will u just die? Don't blv in spirit world?
Headly, having favorite colors and songs is a byproduct of the fact humans developed advanced intelligence to make up for their lack of physical prowess. High intelligence allows us to come up with creative solutions to problems, but it also means--
--human intellect also requires distractions and frivolity to keep us occupied and happy. Boredom is a problem that comes with intelligence, and is also experienced by dolphins, monkeys, and rats. We come up with these things to entertain ourselves.
Having a favorite color isn't boredom. We have preferences that have nothing to do with boredom. If we are merely biological machines then having preferences doesn't compute. We're compelled by dreams and passion because we are living beings.
Zel: Well, u continue intellectual "boredom" along w/"dolphins, monkeys, and rats" as I continue exp'ing "benefits" from HIS ALMIGHTY POWER due to "believing & having faith" in what HE has said & not a dull moment!
We know now it is a moral law, but there was a time that this was not a health issue, And when it became one which was thinning the blood as deluting the blood with the same blood later caused sickness , and birth defects, Many kings and Queens marry in their own royal families. But today it is frowned on basically because it does exist and not considered as a good thing.
You would think that starting with only 2 humans 1 made from the other, that it would result in such a similar blood typer at least by the 2nd and 3rd generation that we would have died off, but this is religion so i guess nature dont matter
Isa 65:17 For look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth;And the former things will not be called to mind, Nor will they come up into the heart. This scripture tells us all the things that have caused harm and pain will not come to mind anymore
Kiss and Tales, could u please try to correct your posting procedures. It cant be that complicated. U continually post under the wrong answer. This causes confusion. BTW, then I guess u are saying that the morals in the bible came from man not God.
He does not use his abilities the way humans do, he gives life His enemies take it by many ways being a God of power and control he does not act on our command ,But he is nothing as the world judges him to be. Life is granted each day he allows it
Get: Why'd u ask a "believer" if "morals come fm man" when we blv His Word that we're "..created in His image?" Whether one wants to "blv" or not, we are a spirit housed in a body connected (in the image of GOD) to GOD!
For now if I get sick I take his advice, who he has provided is my benefit What does that have to with the truth, you rely on the sun he made, the seeds that grow food he created, the many things that keep us living.
K&T: Not related: I'm "open-minded" & wish to know Scriptures that say "There is no hell/hades/whatever you want to call "fire" mentioned in Luke 16:23? Was this a parable? Give Scriptures to justify ur belief! I want to "grow!"
Jonny you have written hubs as the author What is right about coping your hub, changing your name to Man, banning parts of your written and inspired work. 100 years later some has your original and supports it. And another says you are not real ?
K&T: I thought it was just me, but I've seen others ask u to respond under 1 you're responding to! Why not? It's very confusing! We ALL have "limited space" but utilize what's available by abbreviating! Try that!
Norine you are the first one that called people here immature , as seen, why when some one applies the same word to you with valid points of your activities here on HP It is an insult ? You youself used this word first and insulted others.
K&T: Physical="man" (self effort)="immature!" Scripture says "WE GROW!" From immaturity or physical! (II Cor 3:18) Spiritual=GOD="MATURE" fm level of physical realm & cont "GROWING in CHRIST!" Scripture says- Not me! Insulted? Take it up w/
So the cure you need would be cast aside with all the other medications , because people judge all bad . The truth is never bad People give up finding it and say it does not exist, or bad experiences stop people in believing that truth can be found
K&T: GOD "sees" ur heart. Each X u post "out of sequence" He sees u acting like a Scribe and/or Pharisee! U better b careful! "Touch not my anointed, do my servants no harm." (I Chron 16:22;Ps105:15) U "look" disoriented trying to "prevent!"
RLWalker if some one told you to go in the medicine cabinet and get the good medicine out and throw the rest away, what would you do , throw all out the medicine out even the one you need to cure the problem. Because that is just the issues here.
@KissAndTales and @RLWalkerLM, I would first question the motives of the person telling me to throw the medicines away. Just as everyone should about this loaded question about "morals" and atheists. .
Jonmark, , precisely, to question the one saying throw out all the medicine, yet all medicine is not bad, example of a snake bite , there is a bite that has to be administered medicine before 30 minutes, do you have time to run a interview ?
RL: Precisely! They cannot let go of that "ego!" "For ALL that is in the world, THE LUST OF THE FLESH, & THE LUST OF THE EYES, & THE "PRIDE OF LIFE," is NOT of the "Father," but is of the "World" (I Jn 2:16)
Yea not all!!! You just argued against yourself with that statement. In this you claim our morals come from religion. Obviously in those places where its legal it is moral, meaning their morals dont come from atleast your religion!!
Abdus..If your intention is "competition" w/ winners & losers, you're in the wrong place. Your questions are senseless & useless. No one will care if you find another site for your nonsense. U're like a child. Take UR "points" and go home, pl
Silly question. Incest is only wrong to those who believe in such absolute truths. Asking someone who doesn't believe in your absolute truth to prove that truth via some other means just doesn't make sense.
To someone who doesn't go around applying simplistic black and white litmus tests to everything, there isn't anything inherently wrong with incest anymore than there is something inherently wrong with any sex act. The wrongness arises from the how, when, and where of these sex acts. That is what can make incest wrong. That is what can make sex between God approved married couples wrong too, by the way.
Some atheists may believe incest is universally harmful and therefore universally wrong, but still, the wrongness is in the harm caused not in the inherent act.
"Unless you're the product of incest..." Regardless, you have been given life as a result of that incest. It's up to you to make the most of that life and get on with it. Which you can if you are determined to.
Without using scripture would be to answer this question as an atheist, and I'd struggle to justify why it was wrong other than to say I find it repulsive. Merely finding something repulsive, does not give me the right to enforce my values on others.
Abdus that shows you are unable to think for yourself outside of your religious parameters. What makes you afraid to do so? You say you don't have the right to force your views on anyone...yet that is just what you want to do. Admit it!
Morals are dictated by yourself, your internal being, your soul. I would imagine that atheists have internal morals, regardless. An absence of status quo religion does not equal an absence of morals and beliefs.
And how would Atheists agree upon a standard moral code when one considers we all have our own set of morals? Are centuries of moral refinement and standardisation undertaken by the clergy to be lost and forgotten?
It's all based on consensus @abdulssalaam. You've created this idea that each person has their own set of moral codes and they never cross another. And that moral refinement is made up and forced by clergy, who should be banished as thieves & lia
I am neither for or against the clergy. I am saying the clergy had a purpose and fulfilled/fulfil a role in human society. I'm democratic and agree with the consensus approach even though I may not always agree with the majority.
John ,My religion and my faith is based on the word of God, their is no other truth Then the ginuine map of his word. People seem to Judge God by imperfect humans who fall short in many ways But God is perfect we can never go wrong with him & Je
What @KissandTales has done in their response to me is to say that I do not have the benefit of reward without something they have, which is God. This is another way to say that I need them to be perfect. That 1 of these things is not like the other.
@John Mark: unless you carry out a deed for the sake of God, why would you have or expect a reward from God? The good deeds of the un-godly are for themselves, perhaps to feel good about themselves? I'm selfish, and want something in return.
Again @Abdulssalaam, you're wrong. The only reason people believe in God and force that belief on others is for their own personal gain, if not immediate communion plate, non-profit status compensation, than to be rewarded in the afterlife.
No @abdulssalaam, they all do. You can't be a religious leader unless you benefit financially and manipulate the masses. Their flock is also convinced of their eternal reward, complete indoctrination & all of it should be shutdown so get ready.
And so you take a quote from a false book to provide the context @abdussalaam. Religious organizations are efficient distributors of charity, but under the condition that they accept you will provide them their salvation.
@Abdus: " unless you carry out a deed for the sake of God, why would you have or expect a reward from God?" We do NOTHING "physical" to prove our belief in GOD! This is a "Spiritual" journey for "Spiritual" reward! "Works" were FULFILLED via NEW COV
Norine, this is the classic argument which you are repeating now....you bring up again the Spiritual over the Physical. Something which forever can never be proven/dis-proven, but you use it to presume you have the edge over unbelievers.
JC: ALL will remain "immature" until they move fm the "physical" into the "Spiritual" realm! However, "self effort" seems to be the world's problem "..serving the creator more than the Creator..." (Rm 1:25)
No spiritual realm, huh? Based on what? The lack of physical evidence? That's kind of expected that there'd be no physical evidence of a spiritual realm. So, not exactly something you can state with such certainty. You don't know that.
JC; "Thinking critically" is AGAINST the Word of God! Prov 3:5 says "Lean not to YOUR OWN understanding..." I've tried "both ways," (ben there, done that), and "benefits" fm SPIRIT surpasses ALL self sufficiency!
"Immature" would mean getting stuck at a particular infantile level of thinking. This would surely apply to yourself, Norine: in HubPages for 10 months; no hubs written; nothing about you in profile; 8 followers. When will your mind grow up?
Alan: Precisely? "Renew mind" fm physical to Spiritual & show signs of "maturity!" As usual, when all else fails when truth told "insult!" As a man thinketh...so is he!" (Prov 23:7) Work on that "mind control!" Stagnate=no chg/no results for devi
Abdus, the problem lies with your opening premise: "Morals are dictated by religons."
It's partially true...SOME morals are dictated by religion, but some (I would say including a negative attitude toward incest) are have biological foundations. Incest is naturally repulsive to the vast majority of the human population, not because of religion, by because of an in-born knowledge that it's to be avoided.
That said, an "atheist" could discourage incest by pointing out the miriad of scientific reasons why it's not a good thing to do. But fortunately most people don't even need convincing.
Yes, I think it's universally recognized that humans everywhere develop at least a basic set of "morals." Though the reasons for this are not entirely clear, it certainly does not prove that a "god" had anything to do with it.
It is discouraged by society also on top of that the genetic issues that a potential child may face as a result of incest is discouraging enough to damn it as immoral by society. If we lived in a much less scientific society and had no grasp on the reprocutions of incest. Kings and families of the past, tribes used incest, and and many of those kings and queens did it for RELIGIOUS reasons, almost making it more aparent that incest is okay in the eyes of a religious zelot
Many, not all but many, asserted themselves into power and claimed to have divinity. They claimed their power was from god, and a way to not tarnish that relationship or bring commoners into gods divine trust, was infact incest.
First, Morals PREDATE all contemporary religions. Then, there is the fact that there are, and have been...many religions, so which holy book's scriptures are you referring to? All of them? Just like deceitful politicians who attach their names to certain causes, so is the deceit of religions, that just attach their brand to morality, pretending that it was their God who gave these instructions on morality, covering up the real facts...that these morals were the result of man's evolving social norms. And how do you explain morality in other animal species? Did they read holy books too? Morals did not come from Gods, they evolved throughout the animal kingdom, as a result of the striving to secure survival of the species...aided by empathy.
To me morals are based on what my creator states as right and wrong, people deviate from that and create their own. And because they have and follow their own rules and thoughts the earth suffers in many ways. Man has not solved it all he can't.
And where is the evidence that prove that you have a creator? You cant just make up creators, based on what others have told you. You need to provide proof that you have been given accurate and truthful information. You haven't.
@John Regardless of Kiss andTales religious denomination; she at-least has a scripture, whereas you have nothing. Or is Science your scripture? Science does not belong to you, Science belongs to mankind, thus Science belongs to us all.
That makes no sense. I dont need a scripture my morals are based on what best suits society, i dont want to be killed i expect others dont want me to kill them, i dont wamt my shit stollen i assume people dont want me to steal their shit.
It is the government that decides what is best for society. If you lived in South African society during the apertheid, your morals would be to view black people as 2nd Class citizens; otherwise your statement: 'morals based on society' is wrong?
Well it does change depending on the place, but no government does not dictate what is best. However that is a completely different argument. However it does depend on the society. Some things are wrong in other places, and some are right in others.
http://kissandtales.hubpages.com/, is wrong in believing where morals come from. The ONLY reason you believe your creator states those morals, is because someone told you that. Those and others also told you it was in a book, written by people.
Not true Jmark, Do you.know me.that Well To Know when and where I believe what I believe, not here on a Web site can you say you know personal info. It is only what I share with you that you will learn about me.
Kiss and Tales, are you suggesting that you got your beliefs from somewhere other than the Bible? If so, please share that with us. If not, then, we have to assume JMarks assertions are correct. We'll be waiting.
getit, that is surly a misunderstood and misread of scriptures Because the readers have drawn their own meanings First to understand slavery was not based on race, it was based on wages an debts, the one who owes would lend himself out to pay debt
John if you had read the intire meaning behind what is written, you would not being saying those words usual people tend to turn innocent situation into Judge mental wrongs, when only this slavery was not harsh or demanding, it was a debt owed
No i understand it loud and clear. And that isnt always the case, I am in the process of reading the entire bible, and it is surely not the entire case. Slavery is still bad regardless of a debt owed or not.
No, slavery isn't always bad. In that age, before laws and governments and order and such, slavery wasn't such a bad option. You lived under the protection of those in power and were provided food and shelter. It's not like there was a job market.
That may be so, and you are right there, however this is a claim of being right. By a holy book, claimed to be the word of a all knowing all powerful deity, you would think hed see the future and be like slavery, not cool, do this instead
So getit let's listen to what you are saying, you do not believe in free will, God does, you do not believe the bible is the answer to humans future, Why. What is. What is the answer to all sickness, death, for all humans, what is the right Gover
Kiss and Tales, you are committing the Argument From Ignorance fallacy. You're also committing the fallacy of Special Pleading.You're saying that since we don't know certain things...then the answers must be in the Bible. Nothing but indoctrination.
without your big words I will make this real simple, Not seeing something does not mean it does not exist. We do not see oygen but we benifit and use it to keep alive. So who created this also is not visible ,that does not mean he does not exis
K&T - we can measure oxygen, therefore we can see it. For existence of God, there is no standard measurement. Personal experience is NOT a measurement. U also mention bkgrnd 2 slavery being condoned making it ok bt u ignre it with LGBT + cherry
To both K&T and Norine, I just want to say that if you have found your faith, each in different ways, to be support for your lives, then the faith is ok for you. Hang on to it, I respect you for it. But you cannot be saviours for others.
Jonny I agree about saving , I can not save anyone in a spiritual sense, it is God who makes the final judgment about an individual, but we are as fellow humans instructed to share our love and concern for others.
Kiss - Measurable, visible 2 the eye under microscope, visible in lack of oxygen turning a person blue in the lips. Doesn't prove design. Scientific measurements of God don't exist. U ignored my ? - why ignore bkgrnd of LGBT verses, if bkgrnd imprtnt
Jpark, you said visible with the eye , the things I listed are visible and measured as well by scientists. Next I do not understand your questions with abbreviation , please ask so I can read you properly. I have no problem answering questions .
Then reply on the same comment not others. They aren't proof of design - they do not point to any Creator of the 1000s, let alone yours. There is no measurement of God. You may see them as proof, but they aren't. It's off topic anyway - back to moral
Getitrite, regarding your OP. I think that's naive to think something like morality could just come about through random, unintended evolution. How else would God create it? Why does that mean there's no God involved? There's intention in creation.
Headly, Please show objective evidence of this God that you speak of, lest your opinions are based on nothing. And while you are at it, please show objective evidence of how he created himself, and dictated a book. Thanks
Demanding objective evidence is illogical. So everything that exists is beholden to the five senses we evolved in this one environment? Do you know how unlikely that is? Besides, the distinction was made long ago between physical/spiritual.
Oh why must religious people make stuff so complicated!?!?!? Morals are born into people or learned through common practices which do not need to be religious. Morals are mostly born in. My 4 year old has morals. She sees a bug, her natural instinct is not to hurt it because it is alive. I never had to say "don't hurt that. It's alive". She naturally knew that hurting another life was wrong. Not only does incest cause physical and mental issues for breeding purposes, if incest occurs while one of the involved are a child severe issues can happen. I don't need a book to believe it's wrong because I have been a victim of it. I FEEL how wrong it is. I have to live the rest of my life feeling how wrong it was! My morals come from being the opposite of my abuser who for the record was an ordained preacher who quoted and read the bible often. Nothing is worse than a religious person sitting on a high horse claiming superiority while ignoring the fact that most criminals claim a religion and are NOT atheists! Oh and as a long term incest provider, my morals tell me that putting up a picture like you did is not only idiotic, but it's also morally wrong.
Peeples you are correct we are born with a concious, to do right or wrong , the problem is to we use them or do we ignore them, But the catch here is why do we have a concious ? and why should we use them ? and if we do not who suffers ?
Why? Survival of the species. All species have things they are born doing in order to survive. Again nothing to do with religion, just natural reactions. If the goal is to get to how the species began, I couldn't care less. We're here allthat matters
Peeples I disagree with we do things just to survive, because as you have related your experience , I do not think you were a victim based on survival, this person did wrong and knew it was just as you knew and also you said he was ofa religion.
No, that's not the catch at all @KissAndTales. The initial question was about atheists and how they can reject the act of incest without the benefit of scripture. @HeadlyVonNoggin, the issue didn't become compl. until religion ran with it.
Jmark If that is what your ears hear , I can not say it is not what you feel, or think , but you can not speak for another, because you are an individual with your own thoughts I do not argue with that.
You are wrong again @KissAndTales. Rest assured that non-believers are going to get the upper hand in all of this and banish you from society. I'm making that effort everyday and rally up others to do the same. You've been warned.
The majority of ppl are in agreement. In all species there are the odd balls out that do things that the rest don't. The majority of the population for example agrees murder is wrong. Is your belief in a god the only thing keeping u from being killer
I understand what peeples is saying , we should have a inner law that tells us wrong and right This is written as well , by religion being tainted or no longer pure it is not Working for many, so she is saying live by your inner law of right
To getit and John , your very wish will come true ? Did you think you were the only ones disgusted with religion, you see This very thing was told before our birth, religion will fall, read Revelations. The point is that is not all will happen.
Death is inevitable! What if I'm right & you're wrong? ETERNITY is a LONG TIME! It doesn't cost you anything but "humbling yourself" and "believing!" So what if you're called "ignorant," they'll talk about u regardless!Give them a reason &
Not even a reasonable question, Norine. Death does come, and all the tissues of my body recede into a mush which is in turn devoured by other organisms. "Spiritual?" All designed and built up in your own mind for your own edification.
, Heb 5:14But solid food belongs to mature people, to those who through use have their perceptive powers trained to distinguish both right and wrong.children do not know auto that it is wrong to take wrong to lie ,wrong to disrepect We train early
Yes I am aware of where I post, But I am aware I am followed correctly and answered, next as stated before my device is limited to comment space settings. I address the persons name to direct my comments so there should be no confusion.
Al: Fun? "Renewing mind" (stinking thinking) for (Holy Spirit) mind control produces more "benefits!" Now that's "FUN!" Cant comprehend="Immature!" Future devices will require "mind control" U will have no exp to control! GROW in the Spirit!
You know Abdus I have been on HP for some years now , and have heard and read many hubs of people who write here rather I agree or do not , I do not tell people where to go. If a person does not like what is posted then they can take their leave.
Morals are dictated by struggle; the Light of the Soul and level of Consciousness. But we need not call it this. If you feel that incest is wrong, then there is already a victory for your inner Conscience, not others.
Atheists are really nice people, and some have essentially beautiful Spirits. The spiritual life is all about living a pure and examplary life. We can best do this in a group as well as at home, but all will be dictated by your own inner urge for knowledge or progress. I cannot teach you this.
Back to your incest question.Think of yourself as a servant, like I do, and try to inspire. Above all, feel that Life has Someone or Something in charge. You are only an instrument. You still need to do your duty to discourage this, but do it with Love, and after having done it, let go and leave God (call It what you will)
We are here to glorify or manifest Something Higher, and should always do this to the best of our ability, whether it's with work, parents, friends or dealing with problematic morals as you mentioned. Also work with others. We are alone, and again we are never alone. A Paradox? Yes!
Seek out the necessary agencies that can help you or the individual. Child protection service, police, etc. A true molester would not stop just by you saying so or telling one to stop. Add sincere prayer and again, leave all finally to the Inner Master. Much Love.
Even though slavery existed race later , that was done by t a well known religion who traveled the world looking for slaves , first it was the Indians that turned out bad for them Then it was African tribes they captured to enslave.They succeed
I am a student of Peace. The Life-Tree has diverse branches, All of which are essential to the Tree.The rose sacrifices its fragrance, as do the daffodils. Each wafting its unique beauty to man. I see the Light or flame in All: LOVE.
Man:To teach His Word when MOST have "preconceived ideas," read what happens in Heb 4:12 & Mat 10:34! Not just a "Divine Game" wreaking w/LOVE but TRUTH which "cuts!" Who wants to hear that? Consequently, argue against HIS WORD! LOVE=TRUTH!
Also Jonny Norine speaks for her beliefs, I differ from her , and disagree with teachings and procedures in comments. Direct your reply to me personal, I have nothing to do with her views. So you two is not valid.
K&T:Norine gives Scripture & Verse so Who do u not agree with? R u a follower of Christ? Why disagree? 1 "taught" & 1 "revealed? Is that why we r in disagreement? Remember, I give WORD! Work it out with JESUS!
Science, and harm to another (depending on type of incest)
However, when we hear "incest" - many people instantly see the child being abused by the parent sexually, for years, or even the once. The power over another, harm being caused etc.
Incest can be that - sexual abuse of a minor, by a parent or sibling. BUT, it can also refer to two consenting adults (over 18) who are closely related (siblings, first cousins etc) entering into a sexual relationship CONSENTUALLY.
The abuse example - harms another being. The use of power over this person, and the harm being inflicted on a person is why it is discouraged and illegal as it is an offence against a minor.
The Consentual Close Relatives example is different but discouraged due to the "shallow gene pool' and it's complications. Have two very closely related gene pools can, and does (though not always), cause genetic disorders, significant disabilities, intellectual issues, medical conditions that may not be obvious until adulthood (or could be passed on to future children). Which, you could say causes harm to the child conceived in an incestuous relationship - they do not choose to have these somewhat avoidable issues (avoidable in that two consenting adults who were related CHOSE to have children knowing the risks to the child).
Funnily enough, it's legal to marry your First Cousin in many states ...some of which were anti Marriage Equality for LGBT people....so, it's not exactly discouraged by a somewhat Christian nation either.
But there you go - thats how I would discourage incest, and I'm an agnostic-atheist.
Morals are NOT dictated by religion. Morals existed prior to religion (many cultures had laws against rape, murder etc, prior to the arrival of Christ, and Christianity for example). If you ONLY don't do bad, because SOMEONE might be watching, are you really good, or just scared? (Those who say Morals are only from religion scare me...what would they do if God wasn't watching?)
Now K&T you see how it is when you post on wrong comments - hard to follow. If background to slavery in bible is important as you said it is, why is it overlooked when it comes to the background of gay verses - they are cherry picked out of conte
Well it is difficult when a person writes a questions in the form of abbreviations and letters, that has nothing to do with the truth That is already established. My brain works good enough for that Jonny.
I did that to fit it all in and made it as obvious as possible. U want context to be taken in2 consideration regarding slavery in the bible by us, but will use verses out of context (Lev 18, Lev 20 etc) when it suits, why? Context explains it all
If you believed there is a God of order and justice and he has a right to say what benefits each and every human it would make sense to you it doesn't because you are taking a stand against his words so that is between you and Him.
Jonny you can believe that , but only God knows the truth. It does not matter what you think about me and I have not made comments about me personally, but you and others have because I share the hope that is given to the world .
The analogy of a goldfish bowl springs to mind. I have no idea of how the goldfish might view the world, but imagine it's like looking in on itself, with no wider possible perspective. Would it be open to any other perspective? I wonder.
God u guys so "immature!" Have u heard of mind over matter? Saying that u might understand! We "renew our minds" fm "carnal" to "Spiritual" w/more results! Mind more powerful than physical! 1 day they'll create devices w/mind control.U no practice!
That is the reason God does not talk , or intervene now, because it is the true person of the heart he seeks, not pretense because of his presence. But the real you. You made a good point Jlpark. But he will not stay silent for much longer.
K&T: If u new "HIS WORD" (2 Cor 16:21); you'd no why I cont to say "It's SPIRITUAL! Jn 4:24If you want to no why I cont to say "WE GROW" (II Cor 3:18) "chg fm glory to glory" as He did (flesh, then Holy Spirit) II Cor 3:16 "no more flesh"but SPIR
Because genetics is a thing? And siblings mixing genes has an extremely high chance of producing mutant offspring that are unfit for facing the harsh realities of life? And no one would want to give birth to a harlequin fetus? This wasn't immediately obvious? You needed a holy book to tell you not to do it?
Says an awful lot about someone if religion is the only reason they don't immediately turn around and pork their sister...
The OP may be a Muslim perspective, but Norine's reply to my answer sure isn't. Norine is a die-hard Christian apologist who can't comprehend that humans existed 197,000 years before her cult was founded and thus had these things figured out already.
John a debt owed to pay back by becoming a worker for the one you owed. We call it bartering in some states trading something for something even a trade of service, The word slave is used but not in a bad way. But people have turned the word bad
One must pay for their "keep"="slave" or "We call it bartering.." as was referred to in bible! No job, work & I'll feed & "keep" you! Europeans used derogatively not bible! Look @ who JESUS used most- the least! It's a blessing to be "the l
Atheists teach their young right from wrong, just as any parent of any religion. I disagree that morality is dictated by religion. Religions have been known to conduct horrendous acts to humans on earth. Morality can be born from a sense of community and empathy towards fellow human beings. Atheists rely on their government to represent the values of their society. They have elected representatives to pass laws that dictate incest is against the law of society, for example. This why separation of state and religion is so important. The government, which is why democracy is so important, represents the people and their values and ensures our beliefs are upheld.
They go by what "statistics" have proven "works" in our society. Atheists need "facts" and only "proven" results or statistics work for them. Albeit to them, the morals and values that have been "proven" to "work," and as you said were "..dictated by religions..." or Christianity which came from the Word of God!
What a "Mighty God" we serve! ALL will serve Him before it's over!
Consequently, when they exercise their "morals and values," they are following what is WRITTEN IN HIS WORD!
Oh yes, and don't forget that "God" who's such a bully in you daily life, DEMANDING that you obey him (and his followers), is also a god of "Love." But then any religious apologist will quickly find an explanation for this.
This isn't God demanding you obey Him. It's simply a necessity. God is like the DNA of the universe. Cells not adhering to the DNA becomes a detriment to the rest of the system. Any complex system requires order. God is love, no doubt.
Jonny, I want to stress that this, while it is technically a belief, isn't as baseless as most. It's actually a legitimate thing. The fact that matter behaves according to "law", yet we seem to have free will, is telling. Behavior matters.
getit just because you have the power to do something does not mean using that power,there is a time and place for everything, as example you own a powerful weapon for hunting , does that mean use it on anything at anytime? God does not think human
And sayit. Who am I committing anything against You! did you create me , birth me, feed me, do you pay my bills , and do you provide for my survival, none of these , so if I commit Something it would be to who I give my love and worship to Not you
Really? He died? Did I not tell you this is a "Spiritual" journey? Did His Spirit die? Can't prove that by me or any other "believer!" God you're missing a lot with "closed mindedness!" MATURE fm "carnal" to "Spiritual" fm "natural" to "Supernat
Jesus never lived in the first place. Just a myth copied from other myths. There are dozens of heroes made from there fathers flesh. Doing magic and sacrificing themselves. Still you can learn from myths though, just don't take them literally.
Norine, ".. the reprobate mind is one that is corrupt and worthless." You can live in hope and pray as much as you like, but you will never know whether my mind is that way inclined or not. It's not for you to know or decide...fortunately.
Alan: I NEVER "decide" but HIS WORD does & He has spoken! Now whether you prefer to blv the instructions (bible) He left for 1 to follow or not is up to u but "His Hand is still stretched out!" (Isaiah 5:25)
To park , you measure and see air , but you can not see that until you did that it was not visible, So now with the same understanding , you measure the moon, the stars, the universe, you also can measure the human body and it will prove design.
See? "...shared society.." Unbeknown to them, they were "...created in the image of God.." and as such "innate" fm "Righteousness" (God)! Unfortunately, thereafter, form opinions fm environment, society, and/or religion!
They don't have any references of what is right and what is wrong like a religious guy(there is religion because there is Creator), and it just dependent on themselves. If an Atheist is a good behaving citizen, then he will see it as something wrong. However, when an Atheist is a bad guy, mafia guy, immoral guy, then he'll say it is something right and nothing wrong.
What I mean is right or wrong is logically something relative to an Atheist and it doesn't matter, because for them, they lived as useless as they will die.
@hakemzrman, are you suggesting that those of an atheist way of thinking are living useless lives? I take great care to live my life to the fullest, because there is nothing, no thing, after my death. How about your life? Wasted in the name of ?
@Alan I suggest it's not logic that we lived just to ended up as nothing. Believers' lives weren't wasted, because we're promised of Heaven&eternal life from our Maker. Disbelievers will be given Hell & suffering for eternity. Have fear.
The problem with that is we can not read hearts true identity of the person will be judge by that, and a unbelieving person today could change his mind .I was a unbeliever previous in my life , but in a different way, the way of false infomation .
K&T: Yet "studying" bible which corrupts God's Word (even moreso than KJV) continues falsehood unless lead by Holy Spirit. Why do u think GOD places people in one's life? If u don't know, can't discern!
2Co 5:10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of the Christ, so that each one may be repaid according to the things he has practiced while in the body, whether good or bad, Notice each one judge. You are not judge based on another human.
The epitome of religious control and bullying. hakemzrman says: "Disbelievers will be given Hell & suffering for eternity. Have fear." And with that you plan to control the world? Be careful what you wish for! You will be ruled by the same la
Jonny where did you hear from me hell , and suffering there is no such thing , God does not do this to any human. Yet people put trump up charges on him . Sad because they miss the truth , and his real puropse of saving lives To live forever.
God does not exist Norine. Nobody has ever made a photograph of her. Not believing a gamble? No. Imagine when I die and come face to face with a God. Would she discriminate and make a distinction between believers and atheists? If so, she is unjust.
Peterstip My God exist , again as you exist, I have never seen you , you have hubs I can read but I have never seen you You write here on HP does that mean what I read is false of your existing ? Proof Of you is communication on Hp, so is the Bible
PeterStip writes here in HP the same way you and I do K&T. It's reasonable for us to assume that he exists in the plane as we do The god you speak of has the imaginary form that you build for your preference to suit your own needs.
A book of his writings as others write as well Hubs, you and Peter are, proof of my God who have created all things, you can not exist and he does not., I never saw you Jonny but I communicate by writing and you the same. , so does God.
Kiss & Tales, this has been thoroughly and logically explained to u, yet u still persist in mindlessly repeating this statement. When u have a medical emergency, do u go see a doctor(real person)or do u just go to God? Oh ye of LITTLE FAITH?!
Pete: Im sorry for ur unbelief! I believe & cont to receive "benefits" fm that belief! This morning SSA ruled in my son's favor by placing 1 of my ex coworkers there to make "ruling" & gave him MAX benefits! (Dr/Lawyer)
Norine, why can't you leave pete to himself, to his own choices and LEAVE IT AT THAT?! You are so presumptuous, that your way and what suits you is what others need. Stop feeling sorry for him. He does not need your sympathy!
Alan" Spokesperson for Pete r u? If u look above, he spoke to me! Yes, I feel sorry for ALL that don't believe for "eternity" in hell is a LONG time! "Benefits" fm Jesus not"coincidental!" Too many "coincidents" n my life!
Butt out of peoples' lives, your beliefs are yours to have, but it is not a loving christian thing to presume yours is the way everyone needs to follow. This attitude of yours is not one of love, but of wanting to control. You don't know my needs.
Alan: I don't have "a way to follow." I repeat WORD which I blv! "Preconceived ideas" not corr divided WORD, I corr by repeating WORD when consideration hasn't been taken of who, what, where, when & why when studying Scripture! HIS way or NO wa
AL: You finally GOT IT! Beyond man's intellect physical to Spiritual! Mature! Allowing Holy Spirit to Operate! Close to (so u can see) MIND OVER MATTER! As I said, 1 day devices will operate w/mind control. Get ready! Connect to GOD for "FULL" Oper
I'm an atheist and I've never murdered,raped or hit anybody. I've never stolen (well as a child...) Why do I not murder, rape and steal if I do not believe in God or Gods ? There is a very simple rules : Do not harm another person because the next time you could be the person that's harmed. Socially it's not clever. If you harm someone, it may be that in the future you have to ask that person for help. Empathy. Imagine that you where the person that was raped.
Incest is wrong on many levels. It creates warped relationships in families, which in the end will break a family apart. (not a good survival technique) Genetics. In a small community, incest will bring forth weak babies. Your bloodline becomes weak and will die. Again not a very good survival technique.
Morals are based upon a set of rules to strengthen the society. You do not need a holy book to know that killing is a bad thing, same thing for incest.
Created in his image!! Its evolution Norine. Every well educated person knows this. I do not believe in any God, but I know what's good and what's wrong. I do not need a holy book to tell me that , only compassion and empathy.
Norine, what makes your believe the true believe and better then other believes? Why are you so arrogant to say such a thing. I am not created in the image of your God. I was created out of driftwood found on the shore.
Jonny I can not leave you and others anywhere ,you are in control of your life decisions and have always been, but that has nothing to do with what God has planned for the near future. He invites not force, he allows the truth to be found
Nobody will argue with what you've said whether religious guy or not...that's why religious people will enter into hell too if doing such things..but the difference whether get there for eternity or not...and disbelievers will get there for eternity.
"...and disbelievers will get there for eternity." Haha! Any "believer" who reiterates this is well and truly hooked by the evangelist's banter. Exit sensible, individual thought; enter dogma and make-believe. Engender fear.
Big smile."..and disbelievers Will get there for eternity". So your God discriminates And you do trust such a God?How do you know that She will not also discriminate red heads or people with brown eyes.The bible does not say explicitly they are not.
You simply tell the child it's not acceptable for people to display that behavior as it hurts people mentally and physically and is not socially accepted by society. It will make them an outcast and any children that come from the relationship would be out cast and genetically weaker with alot of very serious illnesses. This is not to say it is even unlawful in some countries and some states in the united states and that it can get you thrown in jail as well. It is possible for those relationships not to create sick children but very rarely and the people are really lucky. There is nothing in any religion that says anything on this. That I know of its heavily discouraged for the genetics issue and the title of social outcast as well as possible local laws. I hope this answered you question as it has satisfied alot of tiny people who have asked questions about relationships and the whys and wherefores of social ettiquette.
"There is nothing in any religion (Bible) that says anything on this." Bible differs! Scripture says in Lev 18:6 "None of you shall "approach to ANY that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD!"
The Mosaic Laws have been "fulfilled" under the New Covenant UNLESS "carried over" - "AFTER THE CROSS!" Why one needs to read ALL of His Word to "rightly divide" His Sayings! No one needs to "follow any of these laws" unless "carr over!" Study!
The premise of the question is wrong, so I won't even bother with the question. Atheists can be moral. I consider myself a Christian, but assuming that "morality" came to be just because of God and Christianity is, to put it mildly, an ignorant and narrow-minded point of view.
JL: It means "YOU" judge not but His Word says JUDGE RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT (Jn7:24) which means ONLY WORD (GOD) judges which I give! I respond to Q's on HP! Don't seek atheist but worked w/25 yrs in Fed Gov! Actions taken into consideration,not belief
Generally speaking incest is an abomination. It is evil and very wrong. Morally it is an evil thing to do. Every right thinking person would desist it. Religion most times draws us to morality. Yet Christianity is the way of life, it is not religious or a religion.
Thank you OGO, for saying what has been long overdue ! While people think religion is about God, it is but it is more it is who you believe in and president over in your life, who you live for, who you will die for. That is you religion.
What is ur def of Christianity? "Religion? Bcuz if not understanding what the Word says, 1 isn't Christian but headed to heaven n wrong direction! If 1 doesn't KNOW "Spiritual," not a Christian! (Jn 4:24)
Merriam-Webster Dictionary noun re·li·gion : the belief in a god or in a group of gods : an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods : an interest, a belief, or an activity Stop deceiving yourselves
Jonny your example has limits, that is like saying go view the heavens and you look up at your ceiling and say so what. I do not see anthing. But you have limited your self not past the sky not past heavens.
Norine, The humans who INTERPRET the bible are the same species that WROTE the bible...and simply told our ancestors that they were being directed to do so by God. Why do u choose to believe the humans who are long dead over the ones alive today?
getit why should we not believe what was said, you believe your past genealogy of records of people that are related to you You believe that the records of science has cures for the cures of common diseases And the bible records are no different
Get: "Blind faith" as u call has produced more than this world ever has! I've tried practically ALL, no prevail, until JESUS! I would have no problem "believing" one today if aligned w/WORD! Some have part of His Doctrine but not ALL!
Belief is the beginning to be saved, like you can believe you have a Job, but if you do not work your belief out in works You may become unemployed. Fired! The scriptures says at Jas 2:17So, too, faith by itself, without works, is dead.is clear
K&T: "Works" r under the law! If u blv HS "leads & guides us," (Jn:14:26;16:13), Who's "working?" U've "Lil Faith" n Holy Spirit! "Faith w/o Works (fm Holy Spirit) is dead!" U can't save urself-only HS!
Atheists base their ethics on the behaviour that leads to the greatest good for the greatest number over the longest period of time. The outcome of children born in incestuous relationships are genetically deformed, consequently that is a terribly tragedy for all. Based on that, it is unethical.
I understand what you are saying , atheist base there morals On experiences and outcome as you have listed, makes, sense, but we have a helper to avoid the worse ahead , like traffic creeping because an accident is ahead. So you avoid that Avenue
I agree K&T! Now let's ask HS to "reveal" Jesus is God! I Tim 3:16 "God was manifested in flesh" SPIRIT can do that not people! ONE SPIRIT! Postman sending sender's ltr=2 people! We're talking GOD (Omnipresent SPIRIT) simultaneous if desired!
Moral is an abstract ideology concept. There isn't an exact right or wrong answer of what qualify as moral and what don't.
One should be encourage to strive to be a moral person, but not necessary.
(1) As human been we should be respect to other's different, thus respect others right of freedom providing they don't hurt others, effect another's freedom, endanger society or conduct treason.
(2) As human we are doing no evil, as long as we do not violate harmony and the only behavior that qualify as violate harmony is those who fall under the category of effecting another's freedom, hurting others, endanger society or conduct treason.
Thus as human, you do no evil, if you live according to the two principle above.
Thus the government has the right to make law to protect the freedom of the people within its nation, protect the people within the nation from been hurt, maintain social order and deal with threat to the state. But that is it. If the government's law or policy surpass the two above, then the government is doing evil.
When necessary, every citizen has the responsibility to pitch in, whether it is to be drafted or to pay taxes, in service to protect the country, society, to protect people of the society from been harm and to defend the freedom of its people. You are not doing evil, for not living up to such responsibility, but you are been irresponsible.
What sort of violation of harmony should not be allow, should be determine by justice and law, which of course, walk a blurry line and everybody have different opinion (e.g. I think it is alright to use those guilty of organized crime, as state own slaves [labor slave, sex slave, gladiators etc.] but most people don't think so)
Thus the law should not persecuted against one, for violating any school of moral value. Nor should it force people to follow any school of moral value. By doing so, the government is at fault, not unless when violating such school of moral, one fail one of the two principles above and even then, the government might still be at fault, because it might not be just, to force one to follow such moral, even if it violate one of the two.
In regards to moral itself, one should be encourage to be moral, but not force. And as I said, there are many school of moral value out there and there isn't an exact right answer.
I don't think that's entirely true that morality is an abstract ideological concept. Like music. Everyone is in such agreement as to what sounds right and what doesn't, that we're able to assign very particular rules around it. Music theory.
Pete&JC: "Principles, abstract ideological concept," whatever but is not worthy of debate if you know the Holy Spirit who "leads & guides" one into ALL truth! Unless 1 is just bored & has nothing to do but debate
With the reason that it is a biological perversion. It destroys the familial relationship between siblings or parent and child and will create great emotional distress if one chooses to do it.
If a person is raised and nurtured to any proper degree that should be enough that discouragement from the prospect wouldn't even be necessary for most because it would never become a prospect.
On the other hand there are cases were religion itself has encouraged incest, rape and straight up pedo behaviour. If I had this problem on my hands, I doubt religion would be on my list of possible solutions.
RLW, you have spoken some truth, but also remember there is good medicine , and bad medicine , if you are sick and there is a cure Would you say I do not take medicine because it is bad and caused people problems, So -
The example of medicine is to say , there was a time pure worship was good medicine, it motivated people to real , love of neighbor , family , love of self, Because the bible is about humans and How to be happy. It in general is not for God.
How an atheist would discourage incest would depend quite a bit on that atheists understanding of genetics and inherited characteristics. Incest has long been treated as sinful by various religions because of the health implications inherent in inbreeding. Undesirable traits get passed and strengthened from generation to generation when familial lines get entangled resulting in birth defects, still births, and miscarriages. The likelihood of many ailments such as cystic fibrosis, kidney disease, muscular dystrophy and hemophilia just to name a few.
What started out as a common sense custom against inbreeding (incest) became law as humans became more civilized, and became religious prohibition as humans developed religion in their attempt to explain the universe.
However, an educated atheist would not need religion to know incest was a bad idea.
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