Why is it assumed that Morals are dictated by Religion? Doesn't that scare you?
It is mentioned a lot that Morals are dictated by Religion, and the inference (or the direct statement occasionally) is that therefore Atheists are immoral. What makes people think this? I'm curious. Has anyone considered that doing of good deeds only because God is watching is a scary thought - what would that person do if God wasn't watching? (Not atheists...but..religious people who ONLY do good due to GOD). Atheists - how does it make you feel?
Yes, it scares me very much. Especially when parents teach their children that the ancient "morals" are still in effect in today's society. They aren't.
Imagine being told by a god to kill your parents or your own children if they "disobey god". Yes, that is very scary indeed.
There are so many of god's "punishments" for disobeying him that I wonder how the human race survived to this day.
If god's laws/morals were to be obeyed, then all homosexuals, "witches", enemies, bald people, and many many others would have to be stoned or ostracized by fellow human beings.
How cruel it is to be so judgmental that god orders whole cities wiped out down to the last man, woman, child, and beast - EXCEPT for any virgins found. If you find virgins, you can keep them for slaves, according to the bible.
The sheer number and description of god's punishments is appalling! But for doing good deeds, what do you get? A seat in a mythical place called "heaven" - after you die!
Thou shalt not murder - unless you are an immoral god, then you can wipe out entire civilizations for "offending" you.
Thou shalt not murder - unless you "blaspheme" the god of Abraham.
Thou shalt not murder - unless you are told to do so by god.
Christian morals are not accepted or practiced in many parts of the world. This does not mean that Hindus and Buddhists are immoral! It also does not mean that atheists and agnostics are immoral. Good people are good because they want to be good, not because some god tells them to be good or punishes them when they are bad.
All it takes is just a little bit of intelligence to figure out that it is immoral to kill, maim, and harm other humans.
All it takes is the empathy that is naturally within us. And the empathetic golden rule was present in the world long before the bible was ever written.
Thanks Austin. A lot of what you mentioned is part of what annoys/confuses me about Religion - righteous, yet murderous...hmmm, doesn't work for me. Thanks for sharing.
What about the killing of your own children simply because of inconvenience? We recognise that the Ancient 'morals' may not be current, but the principles behind many are still valid and the foundation is the ancient! Recognise the base!
lawrence - do you approve of your country going to war and killing our young men and women? how about the death penalty, do you approve of that? Death at any age is wrong (including the fetal age).
I do believe in the 'just war theory' and in principle I believe in the death penalty! My problem with both is we can never be really sure we get the right people!
Hope this helps (by the way I am an ex soldier!)
Historically, common sense rules became laws became commandments became religious edicts after the invention of religion. Morals arose when humans started living together in communities and killing and stealing to survive was no longer needed.
Oh really and where do you get your research? Morality goes further than kill, maim, and harm other humans. Respecting yourself is included. So your saying Islam is wrong, right? I'm just saying. Faith is bigger than some of us can comprehend.
Gin: Agreed! "Faith is bigger than some of us can comprehend." There is POWER in "FAITH!" 1 can "move mountains!" I guess "unblvrs" call it "Mind Over Matter?" More Powerful than physical, logic, reasoning, their understanding!
So righteous and murderous or non righteous and murderous, which is best? By the way, who teaches ancient morals. These fat ass women tweaking or whatever, don't even know that!
Ignorance of bible creates conversation such as this! The Old Testament ways r no longer! OT prepared for coming of Christ or MOVE! Bible written in dispensations! New Covenant in effect NOW! ALL SPIRITUAL/ALL LOVE!
No, it does not scare me. First of all, all the crackpot things that you think are inaccurate. Atheists are not victimized by Christians, it's the other way around. I am from a God less and immorality country. Believe me, the only thing that keeps people worth being around is Christianity.
I'm not saying they are, Glenda. I think you misunderstood the rest of the question. Good to hear it doesn't scare u.
".... and the beauty of what I do is that I make people strong and happy" from your Profile, Glenda. You "make people...?" You don't think "people" make their own ways in life without your intervention. Maybe you "help people to..."
I do have a follow up though - can you tell me where exactly in the modern times Christians are being victimized? Yr Freedom of Religion is not compromised by disagreement with yr faith or being asked to do a secular job under secular rules.
Al: Why mean? I no what she meant "People r "inspired" by her writings!"
Jacq: "tell me where exactly in the modern times Christians are being victimized?" "For the people" (laws) r usually against God's Word! (Gen 6:5)
Norine - being denied the right to deny others their HUMAN rights, is not being victimised. It's preventing people from victimising others. Which God's word? Because if we took YR God's word, we'd be victimising all the others....
Jacq: What u r not taking into consideration (as the world doesn't) GOD'S WORD is FIRST v HUMAN rights! If "laws" conflict w/WORD, victimizing GOD (Blvr)! What "man" wants is "irrelevant!" If WORD "victimizes" 1, they err!
What you aren't taking into consideration Norine is that maybe Allah says different, or Buddha, or Shiva. What makes yrs the only? Can I suggest u write hubs 2 get yr message out rather than messages here on questions - you'd be taken more seriously.
Jacq: It doesn't matter if I'm not taken seriously that's not the point! Just spreading truth in His WORD! Read my resp to ur Q "Why is context relevant..." WORD given!When 1's "self effort" is gone,1 will be as Einstein & return to GOD not other
I think you've read Einstein's quote wrong. Why I tell you to write hubs is because you can then get your point across more clearly (And not be seen as harassing..which u often are in yr haste to 'spread the word').
Jacq: U google Einstein & God since I can't comprehend!! ALL will come 1 day!
I'm not trying to be rude or harass but give Word which some may have never heard! I pray no one is lost for hell is eternity! Lev 19:17 TRUTH r NO "love!"TRUTH hurt
Norine - I did google it -in his final letters Einstein dismissed religion and god as superstition (like believing blak cats r bad luck), and the Bible as 'children's tales' - he was at most an Agnostic. He spoke on God, but it was not supporting u.
Jacq: "I" have nothing that needs "supporting!" I speak WORD! I guarantee you will remember GOD in that "final hour," as did Einstein!
Jacqui, you are absolutely, 100% spot on. Unfortunately those in the throes of religious fanaticism can rarely see logic.
Norine - Google it yourself - Einstein denouced God until his death. His letters were denouncing religion as a supersistson, and children stories. Look up his "God" - it is NOT what you think....but, I suspect I'm talking to a brick wall anyway
Jacq: Well, the inevitable will come then determine if it's a LIE! Unbelievers can continue for they do have "free will" but when they stand before "the judgment seat of Christ," He will say, "U didn't listen" then u will KNOW!
Hope you don't mind if I address this issue. since I am not an atheist.. I do NOT believe that we are born 'bad'. I think that all loving & caring parents try to teach morals & manners to their children. Those who do not teach these things to their children, were probably not taught by their own parents, and likely for the same reason. We do carry our childhoods with us into adulthood, and like it or not, we often find ourselves mimicking our parents. Regarding 'religion', I too, get very angry at those who use their 'gods' in threatening manners. I am a Christian. However, I am not one of those who use Chrisitanity as a social 'convenience' or 'excuse'. The only difference between a real Christian and EVERYONE else, is that they are aware that they are sinners, have sincerely repented & accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior, and not only TRY, but genuinely WANT to be more like Him.
I am so sorry, But the truth is, that everyone is born in sin.Or born Bad. That is what the bible teaches and thats why we need Jesus. If parents didnt teach morals, and God removed His hand, We would have destroyed ourselfs long ago.
Inspir: I am sorry, but if we were "created in His image," how r we born sin? "Born in sin" means born into a sinful world! Even Christ was "lower than the angels" having been "born in sin" (flesh/the world)! SUBJECTED TO SIN (World) but DID NO SIN!
Let's see, first things first.....I am not an Atheist, in the sense that I do not accept that something or someone (perhaps the entire universe) is in control and in many ways, guides and directs our lives with our cooperation and intelligence. What I believe and why, is no one's business but my own. It is personal as it SHOULD be.
The concept that "morals" are dictated by religion doesn't scare me in the least because I don't believe that idea for one second. The only people who adhere to such nonsense are ....well, the religious. Good for them. If this is what keeps them on the straight & narrow, more fairy tales to them, I say.
I am who I am, do what I do and live as I do because since the time I could walk and speak....as ALL of us, I had an innate sense of right and wrong, good and evil......joy and pain, action and reaction.
I have no idea who the hell the so-called self-righteous think they are to suggest that "atheists, agnostics or the like" have no morals because they have no god or religion/bible telling them that 2 plus 2 equals 4 and NO NO don't kill, steal or rape...that's not nice!! Really?? Like a human being isn't intrinsically and totally aware of these things? What utter rubbish!
At this point in my life...and in the world, it's become a simple fact that I know far more FORMERLY religious who have left all the brainwashing at the curb. In other words, most everyone no longer BELIEVES.
Who are they? They are our family, friends, neighbors, co-workers, employers, the people we see and interact with every day of our lives.
They live, work, laugh, help others and give to charities. They teach their children to treat others as they wish to be treated and their code of ethics is quite strong.
No....I'm not scared of believers nor of non-believers. The people who frighten me are the ones who insist we must BE JUST LIKE THEM, LIVE LIKE THEM, THINK LIKE THEM AND ABANDON ANY AND EVERY INDEPENDENT THOUGHT. They are the ones we need to AVOID. It's quite simple.
It is quite simple thank you. So simple in fact that one would think even the religious could understand it. But one would be wrong. They do not seem to be able to grasp this concept at all.
You can still give to charity and have a crooked heart. Sometimes, the people receiving the charity, have been praying, and God has the unbelievers work for them.
Meow, Timmy...Did you just suggest that God answers prayers by delivering his miracles through CROOKS? God "uses" the unbelievers as his UPS/FedEx?? How old are you Timmy? I see you like bedtime stories. How cute.
Paula, that reply was priceless! You're a lovely person!
Yr final paragraph is EXACTLY what I mean - no independant thought is scary.... they scare me because they are ONLY GOOD because they think God is watching...what would they do if they thought he'd looked away?
Joey & Billy in lunch line, saw basket of apples & sign "Take only ONE! GOD IS WATCHING!" They took ONE ! At the very end of line was a bowl of cookies. Joey took 8. Billy screamed"WHAT R U DOING?!" Joey said, "It's OK! God's watching the app
Jacq: Did I not say "We were once as u & did as society does & what's "taught" as right? But once blv found we're "made n the image of GOD" which is "righteousness." Society instills morals which r in His WORD. Since we blv, morals r estab by
Take a look at the book of 'Judges'
"In those days there was no King and everyone did as they pleased!" (Judges 21 verse 25) Now look at the mess they got into and the mess we're in! Not so different!
Law: Ur're right! Then blame GOD! The "worst" is yet to come for they r moving farther fm His Word!
I'm sorry to correct you. No one is born with an innate sense of right & wrong or good & evil. We learn these things from our elders, our society, our schools, and our experiences. If it were innate, there would be no disagreements over what
DW Davis, thank you for being the voice of reason! If humans cannot agree on a universal code of ethics, how could morality possibly be innate? Even assuming that we did have a universal code, on what grounds can we tell who's seeing right or wrong?
Guys: If u blv GOD is Creator, then "created in HIS image" says it all! How we differ is then acquired by " learned things from our elders, our society, our schools, and our experiences." Problem: NOT ALL TAUGHT BIBLE; therefore, differ!
Morals and also law EVOLVED out of religion. If we try to arbitrarily discard this evolution we are obfuscating. How can a person both believe in the principle of evolution and simultaneously not believe in it without feeling hypocritical? ?
Yet, cultures with morals existed before religion or at least before Christianity - Which is the religion most often used to say 'see Morals from God'. Maybe the evolution was into religion from those cultures?
I disagree, Oz. It would be more likely that religion evolved out of a set of principles and practices that suited the community and those who wanted control over their community.
these kinds of opinions invariably start to resemble conspiracy theories so they are hard to take seriously.
Oz - since cultures existed before religion, it's not really a conspiracy theory. It actually makes more sense to develop a religion around the good parts of society already established
Bcuz MOST consider "when written" (history), apparently "non-believers! 'The earth was w/o form" (Gen 1:2). Hypocrites or unblvr?
Norine - cultures existed prior to religion. Genesis is a "creation story" - an explanation for those of the time as to how we possibly could have got here - there are thousands of different ones from many cultures/religions. Science states different
Jacq: Either u blv "science" or "GOD!" "ALL THINGS" were created by GOD if "Believer!" Until 1 blvs that, disagreements will continue! Science continues to display 1's "self effort" in finding facts! Can 1 save "self?" The inevitable is coming!
There were cultures before your religion came into existence. How do you explain dinosaurs? Fossils 100,000s yrs old? When the earth is supposedly 6000yrs old? Yr garbled answer still doesn't disprove science. Just that u r against thinkig for self
Jacq: One doesn't blv Bible if they thk GOD didn't create heavens & earth before dinos,etc. Man arrived @ those dates! I blv GOD rather than man. Give another book in which prophesies have been fulfilled in our lifetime? How could this be?
Adam + Eve created on day 6 - no mention of dinos in bible. Not long enough to explain the existence of 100,000yr old fossils.
Nostradamus' prophecies - yet as a Catholic he was denouced as evil by his own faith..
Jacq: Blvrs blv GOD created "ALL" mention or no mention. If dinos not mentioned & bible written "after" must be irrelevant for salvation!
Biblical prophesies by Prophets in Scripture? What other book has as many, if any?
The truth is actually quite the other way around, religion came about as a result of rules on morality handed down from generation to generation until their origin was lost and they came to be treated as commandments from above.
The legal Code of Ur-Nammu was written around 4,000 years ago so a lot of religions probably got their rules from it. Unlike the Bible, it recognized rape as a serious crime against a person rather than as a property crime against her father.
Babylon is the Mother of most deities and mixture of many pagan beliefs.
These existed before Jesus, but when pure worship was cleaned up while Jesus was, present and his disciples,the oppostates
Infiltrated after their death. That is why it' mix
K&T: R u a "BELIEVER?" "...These existed before Jesus.." Why would u say this? NOTHING "existed before JESUS (aka GOD)! Explain "Let US..?"(Gen 1:26) Explain Rev 22:13? "FIRST & LAST?"
U listen to "man" (dates) again & they'll be the d
Norine where is the name Jesus in the old testement, show me . Prove with scriptures.
And quit judging people, You act out of harmony with Jesus purpose trying to look self righteous by condemning others.
You mis the mark of Jesus purpose.
STOP acting like u don't KNOW! Is 9:6 for starters!
Again, the WORD "judges" which I give!
Was Jesus "in harmony" w/Scribes & Pharisees? U KNOW just trying to discredit His WORD but ALL "will stand before the judgment seat of Christ!"
I don't think religion dictates morals, and I don't know that many people assume that it does. I think society and common sense dictate dictate morals.
For example, society tells us that taking something that doesn't belong to you is wrong. We have laws reinforcing this idea: if you take something that isn't yours, you will be arrested, and may go to jail. That doesn't come from religion. That comes from simple common sense. Don't take stuff that isn't yours. Pretty simple.
Another, not so easy example: our society tells us it is immoral to hurt children. That's something we can all agree upon, right? But there have been religions that allowed, and even encouraged, older men to marry very young, underage girls. The religion says it's moral. Society says it's not, and makes laws against it. That's why we have laws about the minimum age of consent, and age of marriage. Religion didn't dictate that. Society did.
The "Gospel of Christ" doesn't reflect last para actions under New Covenant!
In Old Testament "WHATEVER" prevented the coming of Christ so Scripture would be "fulfilled," was removed! If GOD says He would do, He DID, so Scripture's "fulfilled!"
I am not an atheist per se but a non-traditional New Ager. The idea that one must be religious in order to be moral is an atavistic as well as an extremely immature idea. Only outer directed people believe that one must believe in a religion in order to be moral. This is furthermore a totally illogic premise indeed. There are many people who don't believe in a religion yet they are the most moral people around. These people are evolved with a high spiritual or ethical sense of right and wrong. Many people use religion as a ruse, a subterfuge regarding morality.
There are so-called religious people who commit unethical and immoral acts with the rationalization that "God/Jesus/Whatever will forgive all." There are some religionists who proclaim that one can be the worst ever person but if h/she accepts a savior, his/her acts are mysteriously absolved. In other words, h/she believes that the slate is clean.
Religion is used to explain/rationalize so many things. There are people who commit immoral, even heinous acts in the name of their religion. Many religious people are the worst people existing at a very low, primitive state of consciousness while there are non-religionists who exist at a very high level of consciousness. It isn't whether a person is religious or not that determines morality. It is THE PERSON himself/herself.
And who among us is so moral that we have the power to judge? Even religionists are not supposed to judge others, but they do it all the time. Like you say, it's up to an individual to be "moral" or not. And it has nothing to do with religion!
Yes, religionists judge as to prove that they are somehow "better". However, upon close scrutiny, they do worse things than those who they have judged. Such hypocrites, many religionists are hiding skeletons....they DO things also.....
Religionists judge to prove that they're somehow "holier", "better." But religionists DO THINGS ......sometimes WORSE things. So hypocritical, isn't it? They say one thing, DO QUITE ANOTHER!
Yes some religious people do behave like hypocrtites. There's a special kind of low IQ types who think they have wisdom. However the silent majority don't behave that way. Added to this is the intolerance shown to all religions by certain atheists
We are intolerant of the PREACHING! I am sick and tired of religionists trying to explain to me how and why their "god" exists. They present no evidence yet expect us to just "believe" BECAUSE.....
Hard core atheists are also preaching but they deny this. Because...? Denial?
Oz - what exactly would atheists be preaching? I've seen a few things that may be but are in answer to being preached at, but you are the one saying they preach - so about what?
Many atheists preach against all religions, they preach about a whole new wobbly social paradigm, about vague new ethics based on "empathy", about stopping religious influences in schools, about a huge range of philosophy re: nearly all of society
Some, not many. Just like SOME Christians preach, but not many - it's just the only ones many people know of either, are the noisy ones. I don't preach, but I REALLY don't like being preached at, or being misrepresented (immoral etc). I see yr point.
Oz will never understand that atheists do not preach. They refute what religionists are preaching. There is a difference, but most people can't see it. Atheists have no god or gods to preach for. We only care about humanity.
Preaching is preaching. I feel like I'm being preached to by atheists as well as religious people. When someone tries to tell us what to do=preaching. It's not necessarily a bad thing.
Why don't you do your own research and figure out what to do all by youself? Why do you need to be told what to do or what/how to think? You are an adult, right? No one should be preaching to you at your age.
Austin - just because WE don't preach, doesn't mean that some others don't do something close to preaching (I no a few who come in 1st rather than wait 2 b preached @). I can see what Oz is saying. It's not always "religious"
I u derstand, Jacqui. But Oz accusses people of preaching to him and they are doing nothing like that. If one doesn't like to hear hard information, then change the channel and don't listen to it. Walk away.
GM: U spk of blvrs as "judging!" We use WORD-IT judges! WORD says "Judge righteous judgment" (Jn7:24) & We r not "righteous" as indicated in my resp (Growing)! We "blv" as commanded "Teach!"
As Austin said, "Chg channel..Walk away!"
Have you ever watched, Survivor on TV. Or Big Brother. They show that you lie, cheat to get ahead. They are not Religious, and they show that every man for himself. But a Group who Honors a higher power, will work together to benefit the group.
Inspir: Have u noticed the "disagreement" btwn "disciples" re: " circumcision?" Also, Acts 15:7 shows "much disputing!" How else can we "..prove, correct, instruct in righteousness" (II Tim 3:16) w/o dispute? Only when on "One Accord" no disputes
You have to have some kind of guideline or what do you compare to, your peers? Good luck!
Gin: What do "I compare to?" Not "man!" Spiritual is ABOVE man's thinking! Why most can't "relate!" "GOD is not man that He should LIE" (Num 23:19)!
Don't need "luck," only FAITH!
Because there is no more I can add that isn't already here I will simply use this space to add a couple quotes I find fitting.
"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, we are a sorry lot indeed." Albert Einstein
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." Stuart Chase
".. recently revealed that, toward the end of his life, Albert Einstein wrote a letter in which he dismissed belief in God as superstitious & characterized the stories in the Bible as childish." The inevitable is coming! (retr Einstein&God, 9
I understand the sentiment of the quote "if people are only good..." however; on what grounds is that comment based, and on what basis is it any more valid than another's opinion on how we ought to arrive at our moral destination?
Truth: True! For what is "good" to 1 may be perceived otherwise to another! The "only" righteous is Jesus! Admit it or not, morals are "innate" from God for we were "created in His image!"
Without a supreme being and leadership from higher ups, Humans could not even wipe their butt! I guess you were taught to wipe your butt or did it just happen? I guess Einstein was born with a roll of toilet paper connected on his pencil!
@ginosblog I'm pretty sure there are no instructions in the bible on how to wipe your butt.
Gin: The ("innate") "feeling" 1 is born with when "doing right" comes fm GOD for our spirit is "connected" bcuz we were "created in His image" (righteousness) then persuaded via society, env, &/or religion!
Einstein repented & so will ALL!
Norine - Einstein did not. Your quote means he thought of the bible as superstition and children's tales. Don't sound like a repentant soul to me.
Jacq: You wish! Continue living! You'll see!
Did u ever find "ANY" book w/as many prophesies fulfilled written before bible?
No one can answer?
I don't need to wish - it's terribly obvious by yr quote Einsteins not positive thoughts on religion.
U want preBible books? But u don't believe anything existed pre God..or do u? How many ends of the world has it predicted now? 9??
Jacq: Why cont w/Einstein? U "lost 1 of yr own?" Jun 2015 his ltrs auctioned re:"not atheist!" Hurt r u? Yes, "pre-bible" books! NO! Nothing existed before GOD! Man assigned dates (lies)! Where's book?
When 1 dies, "end of world!" Ready?
I have been on both sides of the fence; I was a devout Christian whose faith in God was destroyed by being in a cult. Christianity teaches that mankind is inherently evil, and that any righteousness we have is like filthy rags. Only because of Jesus' sacrifice do we have any hope of goodness.
I have investigated other world religions - against Christianity's rules, I must add - and have discovered all teach basically the same morals of treating each other justly and mercifully. All strive to explain the unexplainable, and how to best live in this world. Christianity is the only one that says we cannot save ourselves. It brags that it's the only religion where God reaches down to Man, but that is actually detrimental.
Ultimately, life is what WE make it. Religion is nothing more than a tool we use. One is just as good as any other.
P.S.: No, it doesn' scare me. Even if God has absolute control, it's still up to the individual to decide.
That's an excellent observation. Even fundamentalists should agree on personal salvation (or not) - except the ones that believe that once you have been baptized, you are "saved" forever.
That first sentence felt as though you pulled it out my proverbial "soul."
Yo: What's "detrimental" about "God looking down to Man?" Yes, we have "free will" but how is "..one is just as good as any other?"
Austinstar and 1000 Words - thanks for your comments. Norine - all religions are merely speculations made by different nations. No Voice ever boomed out of the sky, telling people if God exists. Anyone expecting to be spoon fed will be disappointed.
YO: When belief in "speculation" produces "proof" how does 1 explain? Holy Spirit does "speak" ("reveals" His WORD) to "blvr!" How "spoon feed? "Believing" WORD?
"No Voice ever boomed out of the sky, telling people if God exists."
Completely illogical statement. In order to make it, logically, you will have to know everything there is to know.
NO: how many Holy Books have you read? Sure, the Christian Bible says it's Absolute Truth, but so does the Qu'ran; who's to say who is right? SirDent: Shouldn't everyone hear that Voice? What if I spoke only to some of my children, and not others?
YO: Those who have tried GOD & "benefits" rewarded KNOW! If Qu'ran works for others, OK by me! I've tried GOD & "benefits" plentiful so it works for me! "Thou shalt have no other god before me" is enough for me w/"benefits!"
NO: I'm glad Christianity works for you. I respect the rights for Christians to practice their religion however they see fit. I also respect the rights of other religions; all are valid. Likewise, I demand the same respect from others.
YO: We all have "free will!" What u fail to realize is that we all have "freedom of speech" as well! If I blv Jesus said "teach," I have no choice whether u "demand respect" or not! If I see 1 err, I corr w/His Word,not mine! Don't reply if disrespe
Speak to your children, Yes, Yo. Do you speak to my children? No.
The children of God know His voice. Those who are not His children do not know His voice. How will you recognize the voice of God when He does speak?
He created us all, didn't He? Aren'wecall His children?
Not all are His children. Jesus stated it in the New Testament, speaking to some who thought they knew better than God. "You are of your father, the devil." John 8:44 Also read verse 33 first to really see what He said about hearing.
Sir dent- the bible plainly states that "god created all things, including evil" do I need to look it up for you? Or is the bible something you only believe in when it's convenient?
AS, is this an elementary school yard? Are you trying to bully me into submitting to your ideas? Is this your attempt at shutting me up? I have not addressed you at all on this question.
All I am doing is asking you a question regarding your comment. You may choose to ignore me, not answer the question, or whatever. You do not have the right to attack me verbally by calling me a bully.
Be honest now, AS. Sir demented was what you wrote first.
Yep, and then I changed it because I realized it would be stooping to your name-calling level. I have the power to admit my errors. Do you?
Well, at least you were honest. I asked you if you were trying to bully me into shutting up. A simple question, nothing more.
God said, "I create evil." Jesus said, "I came not to send peace, but a sword." Matthew 10:34.
LOL, you guys!
SirDent and NO - this is where bigotry comes from. People of ALL nationalities and countries were created by God; why should He favor one nationality above all? Many Christians don't even realize their religion was originally ARAB!
YO, Christianity was not originally Arab. It stems from Jesus, the Christ. It has nothing to do with Arabs but everything to do with Jesus.
Jesus was faithful, even to death. Because of Him, we can have life, not mere existence.
SD - Jesus was an ARAB! A Middle Eastern JEW! Check out where He lived and wandered on a map. He even traveled in Syria (Damascus!)!
Yo, I think you need to find better resources. Jesus' mother was a Jew, (Hebrew). His Father was something else. His Father is God. This would make Him more like a Samaritan.
Here is my resource: http://www.jewishanswers.org/ask-the-ra … ism/?p=933
Jesus was still an ARAB!!!
Of course, there is absolutely no bias on that site. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. His death was for life for those who believe. The only hope there is for anyone is to believe upon Jesus. Unfollowing this question now. We are off topic
You know YO, when ppl suffer "traumatic experiences," instead of "leaning on Jesus," I have found MOST "turn fm Jesus!" Job did not "turn!" Why r we weak? Why can't we have "faith?" The "test" provides "Growth" if passed r 1 resorts to sin!
If you really know Christianity, you should know that it is Not a Religion. It is The Way of life for all men. God wrote morality on man's heart before Christ. Now Jesus is Here and you dont have an excuse or choice.
Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism.... ALL religion is a system of BELIEFS. You "believe" the words you just said, but that does not make those words true. It makes them "religious". You need a hefty dose of reality.
By the same token, so is your religion of nonbelief!
NO: What if the trauma came from the church itself? I had to watch helplessly while my niece dropped out of high school to join a cult. If things had worked out in Seattle, I could have rescued her, and she could have attended a great church there.
YO: Satan was on his job which is USUALLY thru "the church" not "THE CHURCH!" JESUS went into Synagogues (churches) & devil ALWAYS there! So it is today!
Child 2 young to "seek 1st the kingdom of GOD" WORD (Matt 6:33) & easily persuaded!
Key word....Cult! There is where you made your mistake.
If you want to get into it - all religion fits into the dictionary definition of cult - be it what we see as 'cult' in the modern sense, or any religious beliefs held by a large number of people.
Jacq: Religion: "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe,.." (Dict.com)
Do atheist not have the "belief" there is no God? Therefore, by your analogy, they're a "cult" also!
Norine - the ONLY shared belief of atheist is the lack of a belief in God/s. We all differ greatly on beliefs around nature etc. so there is no set shared beliefs. So no, don't fit as a religion - at all.
Jacq: And as you can see by "constant" disagreements w/in "religion," the only belief we have in common is belief in GOD! "A belief" equals religion according to Dict.com & "cult" according to your analysis!
You don't have to be religious in order to treat people the way you want to be treated. People were doing both good and bad deeds long before the bible was ever put together.
God made man and man made religion.
True to a point, but religion comes in verieties, Babylon was the empire of many deities, as Jpark mention the Hammurabi was written by a king in BCE time period.
It has laws, as well, but the laws was based
on business practices,and few others.
K&T: Why do u cont to "follow" me trying to discredit as did the Scribes & Pharisees? U have READ & KNOW but "teachings" in err & u hate to admit, so discredit TRUTH? U "will" stand before GOD & then what?
I will stand with NO d
Norine we are not in the position to judge anyone, nor use God's word to force a judgment, if that was the case the Angels would personally be used,
Can you see a person's heart over the Internet, No !neither do you know their plight in life,stop!
Why so far fm Scripture K&T? Matt 7:24 "Judge "RIGHTEOUS" (WORD) judgment! Who lies?
Why "appease" ppl rather than TRUTH which is LOVE! STUDY!
Matt 15:18 says "Out of mouth comes fm heart" so we "know" ppl's hearts by their words! U no?
Nothing is scary, really. People are where they are or we are. This Divine plan has to work, after all, and diversity and ignorance is part of the plan. All necessary really, or the whole thing becomes dull.
We feel pain and yes, people do hurt us, but it is all a play of Consciousness. When we let go and accept without expectations, the ever-present Consciousness peeps in and enlighten our Consciousness.
It is as necessary for the baby to have a diaper, as a grown man his underpants. They are both different, but complement each other. What's necessary is to see the holistic picture.
There are many people here on Q's and A's that I would respond to with Silent Love, as they are not ready to accept anything different. I know this, and it's o.k. Never worry about things you cannot change. Much Love.
"Throwing stones," r u? I'm always willing to "Grow," BUT according to WORD! Show me where wrong? That shows "Love!" Would u allow 1 u "Love" continue in error? R u not 2 "Love" ALL! "Truth" is "Love!" Would 1 allow their child to cont in err?
Norine, there is a burning Flame inside U. If you want to swim, then enter the water. To love God, spiritual practices are indispensible. Prayer, silence, solitude, meditation; service to man and an imitation of Christ is needed. Much Love
Man: YES! "Fire shut up n my bones." (Jer 20:9) Do not quench (I Thess 5:19). "..an imitation of Christ" is "service to man" when teaching His Word! (Matt 28:19). WDJD? "Teach!"
You see my Sweet Norine,
You're a good person; a very special human deep down. Continue to Love. Follow the six things I mentioned. Feel no hate; do not consciously offend. You have God's Love and my good wishes. Peace.
Man: Those 6 r "your" desire (for me to be quite)! That's not what I've been asked to do by Jesus! He said "teach!" Who do I obey?
If I see ANY err, (you or another), I "Correct" by giving Scripture. If u don't accept, at least u KNOW!
morals are what people learn from their parents and society they live that's why they dictated by religion.
I do not have any religious beliefs. Properly brought up children have a moral code inculcated in them by their parents. However, I do agree that there seems to be a link between a perceived link in the decline of religion and the increased incidences of criminal activity. Perhaps parents could do better in teaching the difference between right and wrong without reference to reward or punishment in an afterlife! Though, loosely speaking, the 10 commandments in the Christian Bible might be a good starting point for the instruction of children. e.g. Thou shalt not steal because somebody has worked hard to acquire the item that some hope to obtain by theft, and the law of the land will mete our suitable punishment to fit the crime. Thou shalt not kill because nobody has the right to bring another persons life to an end, the loss would make many innocent people very unhappy, the law enforcement agencies will eventually catch up with the criminal and the law will impose severe punishment.
Glen: As stated, "unbelievers" foundation of morals came fm GOD as u state "..the 10 commandments in the Christian Bible might be a good starting point for the instruction of children." (Gal 3:24-25)
JQ: I covered "BOTH" God looking & Blvrs r Gr
If you check your history, morality came from religious belief. It didn't come out of the goodness of man's heart. God was talking to men back then too.
Spirit: True! How can 1 be "made in the image of God" & w/o morals when He is "Righteousness?" If one doesn't know this, they don't believe there's a GOD! SAD! Unblvrs blv blvrs do right bcuz "God is Watching" & don't no Holy Spirit's func
There were moral cultures well before there was religion. Hammurabi's Code has punishment for rape, murder 100s of years before the Christian religion (and their God) had anything similar...(and God condones murder in some cases....moral?)
Jacq: When 1 is a blvr, "GOD created heavens & earth" so how could ANYTHING exist b4 Him?
ANYTHING that impeded the coming of Christ had to go! THY WILL be done!
If u created robot,became disobedient=destroy! If we're disobedient, destroy!
Nice cop-out - there is proof Earth is older than Bible claims. You also can't explain away the condoning of incest, murder, genocide, infanticide, etc in the Bible. Hellfire threats or death for Disobedience is abuse, not love.
Jacq: Where is that book w/prophesies? Tell me! If can't then something is amiss! If ANYTHING stood n way of Christ coming, MOVE! Mama love u but disobedient, punished (mine felt like death), but loved!
Yes, "Scary," if you're an "unbeliever!" However, Scripture tells us that "God looks at the heart" (I Samuel 16:7), while "man" looks at man's behavior or belief!
When one has not "studied" Scripture and does not have the capability of "seeing" one's heart but "looks" at one's actions, he assumes one is not Christ-like which is "Very Scary!" However, this is a "Spiritual" journey in which the Holy Spirit is continuously changing (depending on one's faith) us "from glory to glory" (II Corinthians 3:18)!
Who said "Atheists are immoral?" I've worked with ALL from ALL backgrounds - believers and nonbelievers, in which morality was found in "BOTH" (or at least displayed @ work)! Most "Christians" have not been "Christians" all of their lives! What do you think we did PRIOR TO becoming "Christians?" WE WERE ONCE AS YOU - relying on innate feelings and did what "society expected of us!" So, your assumption that "...religious people who ONLY do good due to GOD)" is in error!
Have you ever heard the phrase, "You can't judge the book by looking at the cover?" So it is with those in Christ! It's a "Growing" process (I Peter 2:2)! We are being "changed from glory to glory!"
Ephesians 4:13 says, "Till we ALL come in the UNITY of the FAITH, and of the KNOWLEDGE of the Son of God, unto a PERFECT MAN (that ALL can "see," but "change" depends on one's level of "Faith!"), unto the measure of the stature of the FULLNESS OF CHRIST!"
If you would "study," you would see "NOT SCARY AT ALL," rather a "babe" in Christ, "GROWING!" However, "Believers" have at least gotten "on the road," while "Nonbelievers" have "not gotten in the car yet!"
"...But has hand is still stretched out!" (Repeated Chapter after Chapter in Isaiah!)
I think that you'll find I meant it's scary what a 'believer' would be capable of if the ONLY reason they do good is cause they think God is watching, not because they think it's the right this to do.
Otherwise, thanks for your answer
@Jacqui. By the same logic, isn't it scary that the non religious only do good because society is watching? I mean, morals dictated by society are no different, according to your logic. What would non religious people do if not for society?
Could be. I do good, cause it's the right thing to do, not cause anyone or anything is watching. But, it's us without God that are often called immoral - yet many do good for goodness's sake, not for God or society. I do see where you are coming from
@Jacqui. I am glad you can see what I meant. Thank you.
Then there are my wise Dad's words and manner of teaching. We heard all the time: "Do the right thing, BECAUSE, it's the right thing to do." Pretty simple, wouldn't you agree? and TRUE!
Paula: Yes, I agree but bcuz a "believer" statistics gives even more "confirmation" that God's Words r true! IT Works! (Proof)
Jacq: I got the gest! Covered both "God watching" (u err) & "man watching" (We're "Growing" may not "APPEAR" OK to ma
Norine.It matters not 2 me that you "agree." U R so filled w/pride, anger, self-righteousness,fairy tales & ancient quotes, I PREFER U not comment to me at all.U R pathetic.I pity you. Preach UR self silly,but NOT to me! Find a mountain somewhere
Paula, "a million people with a million shovels could move a mountain," but in Norine's case I think you might at least need one bulldozer!
P: When giving WORD all who err run! Welcome to the "world!"
Al: There u go again! WORD says "If u have "faith" the grain of a mustard seed u can move mountains!" No need for "bulldozer!" Use that "mind!"
"Studying" v "arguing" shows "immaturit
Alan..sigh.. relating to the "Q", what is most SCARY of all, is the outrageous fanaticism, narrow-mindedness & ignorant boldness directed at ALL who choose to use intelligence, common sense & realism. I've resorted to listing 50 uses for a sh
Brilliant r u? "It was recently revealed that, toward the end of his life, Albert Einstein wrote a letter in which he dismissed belief in God as superstitious and characterized the stories in the Bible as childish."(Einstein & God) And then,THE E
Just because one is not religious and still moral does not mean they do it because society is watching. It doesn't have to be one or the other. Some of us simply lead good lives because we have a conscience and don't lack empathy.
By the same token, we don't do good bcuz God is watching! Our spirits have been chg'd exceeding "man's" perception of righteousness! The Holy Spirit (Jesus) guides us! U no Guide!
Reason man's perception conflicts w/others' re: morality!
That is why in the example of Jesus the son of God as the disciples walked and believe him to be. The missiah did they still do wrong , in the end Judas betrayed , Peter denied, yet they tasted and witness the power of God through his son Jesus.
K&T: U still LIMIT the POWER of GOD? I Tim 3:16 says "GOD was manifested in the flesh..." Did HE LIE? Explain He wasn't when IT IS WRITTEN? U see the Word "MYSTERY?"
GET SPIRITUAL! (Jn 4:24)!
Ex: U blv ventriloquist but not "GOD?" Why LIMI
Isaiah 9:6 says what he will be, not his name , list the name of Jesus in the old testement. That was the request, not what you listed.
Who else is "The Mighty GOD," "The Everlasting Father"...? Jn 14:9 JESUS SAID "Have I been this long w/u & yet thou hast not known me..?"
It seems u MUST prove u're rt when IT IS WRITTEN not me rt & u wrong (irrelevant) but WORD!
Norine that is in the New Testament, I was clear request Old testement, you refuse to answer because you have a ego that you have to be right .
I only respond to you to speak truth, but your pride is more important then truth.
You argue over words
If u say Is 9:6 LIED YOU R A LIAR & THE TRUTH is NOT IN YOU! A child is born & will be called "....." Wasn't that Child (Jesus) born or did Prophet LIE? You're "ego tripping" & would rather call bible a LIE than be wrong!
Norine, Isa 9:6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder:and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God,The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Where is his name ? Jes
See how "UNSPIRITUAL" u r? Who else have ALL of these GLORIES, ROLES, TITLES? Know u so little of Scripture? I thought u knew WORD! Blaspheming against Holy Spirit is "unforgivable!" Your "ego" will b ur downfall! (Lk 16:14-31) Did that LIE 2?
Norine you judge me , and even tell me I am going to hell.
We'll I am Glad that God, and Jesus is nothing like you. they both are merciful and loving , you lack those qualities from your dialog.
That is why we do not agree.
Baby "I" don't have a heaven or hell to put u in & didn't write Scripture just "repeat!" His WORD judges, not me! I didn't say "Let him b accursed" Jesus did! Who wrote the WORD (JESUS aka GOD)? Eph 4:4-6 says 1 SPIRIT who r "they?" Trinity?
Man, by nature, don't care if God if watching. Man, through his own life experiences and or teaching, decides what's good or evil. And it was Gods great love for us that caused Him to put that ability in man. This ability is called FREE WILL. Now, God can see who will freely choose good, and love Him for the gift, or choose themselves and any other way that suits them.
Atheists have the right to be what they want to be. And at the end, they will be judged like everyone else.
Thanks for your answer. My issue is - if people are ONLY doing good because they think God is watching - are they really doing good, or just selfishly making sure they 'get in' to Heaven? (not doing good for the other, just for their own benefit)
Jacq: By the same token, r u "just doing good bcuz the law is watching?"
Nope. I do good, because its the good thing to do. Law just happens to agree the majority of the time.
Jacq: Yes, it "feels" good! Why? Your "spirit" is temp connected w/GOD (righteousness)! This is the feeling ALL will acquire w/ the Holy Spirit!
Not just mumbo jumbo! Wonderful! Feeling associated w/"roller coaster ride" when worshiping! PROOF
Religious people do not avoid sin just because they are scared of God,they also avoid sin because they love God
Yet, atheists avoid doing bad things, generally because bad things aren't good things to do. Loving God doesn't prevent someone doing bad things - priests anyone?, so why would being without God make people more likely to do bad? It doesn't
Jacq: Just saying, Love of God, "More reason not to do bad things" vs laws or conscious! Being w/God less likely! Holy Spirit "guides" & righteousness instilled (convicted)! Whereas "self effort restriction" w/o God varies!
...Bur not out of love of their fellow man? Isn't that part of being a "good Christian"?
Zarling: Holy Spirit "EXCEEDS" righteousness man cannot comprehend! Holy Spirit is Jesus & "man" can't come close to His righteousness!
Have u read bible lately? Heard of "Love thy neighbor as thyself?" Or "If you love me you'll keep my words
Firstly, Can I say that this is a really good question. My partner and I are always having discussions like this together. Everyone will have different answers for you, so good luck with that.
To be honest, I am not religious. Although, I have morals, scruples and I am highly principled. Religion did not do that to me, the answer lies with nature and nurture. I do believe that everyone has the right to do whatever they wish, be who they want to be and live how they want to live, as long as they do not infringe on another persons right to do the same!
You have to think back through history at religion - it controlled almost everything and everyone. Why? Because you were not allowed to question anything, or you would be branded a heretic or worse, sentenced to death. Total Power! Look what the Catholics did in Spain with the inquisition, and look at what happened to those they branded heretics. Christianity, as one religion, uses guilt and fear as its weapon and then inputs a class system of what IT believes to be Sin. (Bear in mind, the people at the top of this religion were and still are male dominated!). Many people will say that the ten commandments are fundamentally important here. They are to a point. Our laws in the western world can be traced back to them. If you kill, if you commit adultery - one leads to jail and the other divorce or the end of a relationship. So you can see how powerful it was. The rhetoric of those people at the top of religion spouting their own agenda "atheists are bad, gays are immoral...and so on..." it is merely about control.
Marx said "religion was the opiate of the masses..” It is true if you look at it closely, people afraid in life because they are lonely or don't know which direction to take in life, are afraid of themselves and are sheepish will instantly run to the first thing that offers them a sense of belonging. Problem is that it comes at a price, blind obedience. In my opinion, the paranoia that someone is watching your every move (GOD), will make most people behave in a compliant way, would it not? Fear makes us do strange things.
This is just my view and please do not let it influence anyone else, we are all individual and have our own stance on certain subjects.
CC: Why do u thk Christians r "controlled" for "Fear of GOD?" Yes, we "fear" Him bcuz we realize He has ALL Pwr! We were"created" by Him & "He Controls" but to assume just bcuz "He's watching" displays "ignorance" of His Word & denies His P
You say I'm ignorant because "I deny his word", how do you know it's a he? Why have you personified something? The word is also "Because" not "bcuz", it's lazy abbreviations that destroy languages and wreck communication. I didn't know he had P prob?
CC: Why angry? Limited space! SPIRIT can b whatever 1 desires but GOD is Who He is for as He said "I AM" which means Whatever/Whomever! A relationship w/GOD provides "benefits" which 1 cannot perceive if nonbeliever! "..denies His POWER!"
That's not entirely fair Norine. We can have the same benefits because we have total trust in ourselves and have inner strength (not religious) which is not to unsimilar to what you get from a relationship with God. Just without the nonsense verses.
CC: GOD rains on the just as well as the unjust so those can't "see" rt fm wrong w/o the help of the Holy Spirit but "benefits" not same! "Trust n self" against WORD (Prov 3:5)! Where do u thk u get that "inner strength?" Evolution?
I will tell you where that inner strength comes from. Certainly not from nonsense mumbo jumbo. It comes from a lifetime of experiences - sad ones, happy ones,hard ones and even harder ones which have given me friends whose support gave me strength
CC: So morals come fm "friends?" Where did u come fm? Evolution? A monkey? They have morals?
I did not say that Norine. I said I got my inner strength brought out by my friends. You are just twisting it for your own ends. You are not a Christian, you use religion as a weapon. A true Christian would listen to another point of view!
A true Christian would listen to others. How true. Some people are controlled totally by the fear of being wrong about god and religion. They tend to insist that what they believe is true to the exclusion of all other rational thought.
Thank you Austin Star - I am not a Christian, but I do believe that everyone has the right to do whatever they wish, be who they want to be and live how they want to live, as long as they do not infringe on another persons right to do the same.
CC.Should've warned U, dear man. but let U C 4 Urself. Best U STOP now. She will NOT stop.( obsessed, possessed & fanatical). Constant, repetitious babble. Rude, disrespectful, snarky. Claims 2 B "Christian" Does NOT behave like 1. Let it go.
Paula! U R starting to sound like her! Step away from the comment box and let it go. CC is a smart man and he has already figured it out, LOL!
Lela....LMAO! I see it's happened. I let myself get pushed over the edge!! HELP!
Thanks Paula and Austinstar
I had her rumbled quite early on. Truth be told, I was giving her enough rope. It worked and she hanged herself, you'll notice she went awfy quiet after the last comment. Laughable really, but thanks xx
Unfortunately, she will be back with another boatload of copy/paste and unintelligible comments on any and all empty comment spaces she can find.
That's true Austinstar, however for now we are safe because she's gone to do penance. Smack herself with a bush or something, like on the Davinci Code, as she said God had a pee problem? The naughty dear! Hell's escalator will be busy tonight.
CC: I'm back! Yes we ALL have "free will" but if against WORD, can't respect! Did Jesus?
Austin & Paula: I'm sorry ladies, but in order for you guys to insult me, I must first value your opinion(s)! Nice try though! (You too CC!)
SOmeone doth protest too much, me thinks. If there was no value placed on the comments, one would not bother responding to them......just saying.
Norine: I can understand the sentence we all have free will. However you keep writing in abbreviations, Now I am sure the big JC would not be happy at his words being shortnend.
Jacqui: I quite agree with you
CC: Thanks! I'm sure JC is "looking at my heart" and not as "man!" I Sam 16:7!
Have a Great Day!
people are created as simple animals who needs to be lead. But many people don't do good because they believe God is watching, if so, the entire religious world world be the beacon of light which shines down on scums like me. People are built with natural goodness in them, the feeling to do good, to help others. Even though evil outshines us, that is just the way of life.
I believe having no faith makes you no lesser in morality; in fact most people who sham to be religious preach water and take wine. There are many people who do not believe in God due to personal reasons but are more upright morally or 'righteous' if it applies, and very disciplined.
Doing good to please God is the height of hypocrisy, do good because you want and feel its right without looking for rewards. Always do good to appease yourself but not to please anyone else. This will make you be good at all ltime with out any inner conflict.
JN: When anointed with Holy Spirit, one exceeds "morality!" "..preach water & take wine." Not if according to "Gospel of Christ!" Water should b given for Communion & Scripture says so! Why "inner conflict" if no spirit fm GOD?
Thanks for your comment Jeremiah. Your final paragraph was part of my theory - along with the "if you are only doing it for God, what WOULD you be doing if He wasn't watching? Atheists do good, because they want to, not because they're being watched"
Jacq: The Q is irrelevant if u knew the function of the Holy Spirit! It "leads & guides 1" so why would it lead u to unrighteousness? See how "unlearned" n Scripture u guys are? Sounds really.......?
For the "unlearned in Scripture," it is what the "world" perceives as "excellent answer" but not TRUTH!
Confucius once said: A civilized man unit with the masses in harmony and treat other with respect. A savage man, encourage people to create little circles and conspire against the others in hate.
The Catholic church throughout history, create little circle base on race (for those of you who don't know, a lot of evidence suggest the Catholic church is the father of western racist ideology), then they encourage hate against pagans and Muslims. Then they encourage hate to unwed mothers, gays, jews. (and that is the only ones I know of, god know how many groups did the church encourage isolation and hate, in name of god) Throughout history, the Catholic church have used the bible as an excuse to create little circle, that isolate people from the masses and conspire hate and anger towards those whom are not in the circle.
Confucius also said: One who is a savage is arrogant, consider the Catholic church thinking they are better then everybody else and should follow its religion moral code.
When reading these two passage, it felt as if he is talking directly about the Catholic church and consider western history, I have to agree with him on this.
Problem is "Confucius" was "man" and "The Gospel of Christ" is ALL "Spiritual!" Who'd u rather blv, "man" or "GOD?" The Catholic Church is in err! That's why we have to "STUDY" HIS WORD, not Catholics'!
Yet, we don't even know is the Christian god the real god
Unfortunately, whatever the word of God might have been, the greatest error was giving it to mankind. There may have been a beautiful message, but it was lost the moment man got ahold of it and began twisting it for his personal agenda.
That is why I like Confucius view, he believe the most important thing is don't harm others, betray your country and society and as long as they did that, respect them, even if they are not moral, Only persuade moral on people, never force.
INteresting Peter. I have no issue with religion or Catholicism. Confucius was a wise man. As an aside - interesting how several different branches of Christianity disagree with the others being "Christian" enough...same god, + still don't agree! Heh
Pete: I do! Try & find out!
Shan: Holy Spirit will reveal ALL!
Jacq: It's called "maturing or "Growing" in Christ!" Babes (less study/belief/faith) disagree w/maturity!
Norine you all believe in the same God, you are all branches of Christianity - Catholics, Mormons, Baptists, Protestants, JW - yet you all argue over who is actually Christian. It's not mature - it's childish
I believe that every religion is praying to the same diety, just calling it different names with the message askewed to fit the different agendas of those who first received it. And everyone's going to feel mighty silly when the time comes
Jacq: Immature to unbelievers, but II Tim 3:16 says The Word is for "reproof!"
Zarl: "And everyone's going to feel mighty silly when the time comes." Everyone? You meant "unbelievers?"
First off, I will say that I am not an atheist, but I also do not believe in religion or the bible. Morality is not limited to religious preferrence, you can have and teach morals without being religious in any way. Some Christians ( note I say some, not everyone) would say that they atheists are immoral but how can a person be bad just because they choose not to believe in something they cannot see?
What makes a person good or bad is the intent of their heart. If you treat others with respect, help people in need and donate your time to doing good deeds because you want to and not because you fear God, how can that be a bad thing. If you do something out of fear, it really doesn't count as faith, does it?
I choose not to believe in organized religion because I was disillusioned by churches, ministers and fellow Christians when i was younger and found some things hard to swallow. Some things just don't resonate with you as making sense or being true and that was it for me. I can be a good person without being religious. And that is how I choose to raise my child.
Thanks for your answer Lisa. Thats my query - why would atheists be immoral merely for non-believe? Yet do good things, for the sake of doing them, not because they're being watched? I like your answer
Jacq: They r NOT! Taught beliefs against WORD! U should say "yet do SOME good things.." When Holy Spirit (Jesus) leads, do ALL "good things" whereas we MIGHT "sometimes!"
Religion shapes our beliefs and our beliefs shape our Morals.
But those who lack belief in God, and religion, still have morals.
Jacq: "Innate!" God given! Then society, environment, and/or religion! Re; "Value 1's opinion?" I Pet 3:15 ANSWER EVERY MAN!
Personally, I find it both scary and laughable when people hold religion to dictate morality, considering the countless immoral, horrific and generally icky things which are carried out daily in the name of religion. Morals, right and wrong, are not dictated by religion. Right and wrong are what they are without the word of whichever book you follow.
Great answer! Now if we could only get these words to the people who need them.
Shannon - YES! Hypocritical isn't it, to 'dictate' morality, when the history of the faith trying to do so is riddled with Godly condoned immorality.
Ladies: When u *create something, it's urs to do as u pls! So it is w/God! When HE SAYS "It will be done," it's so! If "ANYTHING" gets in way of HIS WILL, "Move!" U fail to blv HE IS GOD - THE CREATOR (*as u) like decision or not! NEW COVENANT=CHGS!
I only wish that right and wrong were as absolute as you seem to believe. But people differ on what is right in some instances and what is wrong in others. Hence we have arguments, fights, killings, and warfare.
DW: Hence, different perspectives re:morality! But if aligned w/Word of God ALL would be on "ONE Accord!"
"Hence we have arguments, fights, killings, and warfare."
God knows everything. people believe it or not. It is like gravity. They believe it or not, the gravitational forces continue.
Thanks for your answer. Not quite what I was asking.
You're right Pande! He "KNOWS!" They will 2!
SPIRIT (GOD)+spirit (man)="righteousness" (morals or "good feeling")= GOD for we're "created in his image;" therefore, "INNATE!"
Whether 1 wants to "believe" or not, WE R CONNECTED to the CREATOR!
I am a non-believer. From my perspective, things i've read and my dealings with other people, it seems to me Atheist are the most discriminated against. Yes I agree with you non-believers are looked at as if they have no morals. That question has come up in some of my relationships," where do you get your morals" if you don't believe in god. I swear, no matter what I say they just don't get it. YES, I feel the same way, it's a scary thought.
I love this quote it says it all.
“without God’ what’s to stop me from raping all i want?”
Answer is: “I do rape all I want’ and the amount I want is zero. I do murder all I want , and the amount I want is zero.”
The fact that these people think that if they didn’t have this person watching over them, that they would go on killing and raping rampages is the most self-damming thing I can imagine” Penn Jillette
Thanks Bruce for your answer. I like the quote!
BS: I'm blvr! Innate fm God so how can 1 blv unblvr immoral? Sounds unscriptural! W/O God more likely! Get drunk & see what "could" happen! Holy Spirit leads us! Unblvr has no Guide! Just get drunk!
I really think God is watching is crutch to say why christians will not do bad things,
Because you can teach your children and tell them not to do something , and they will still do it behind your back or in front, some willing to take punishment.
K&T: As "preacher's kid," I know this is TRUE! Most "rebellious" kids n the world! But when "HE" (The Spirit aka GOD aka JESUS) "Calls," different for HE "puts His law n mind & writes in heart!" SPIRITUAL!
I don't think many believe morals are dictated by religion. Rather, religion is seen by many as a vehicle in which moral standards are conveyed and ordered.
But taking religion out of the picture for a minute; here are some things to think about, regarding morals.
1. Do objective morals exist? Or are all morals subjective?
In other words - are certain things bad no matter what anyone thinks, independent of human opinion (objective) - or are morals just subjective in nature, meaning two people can approach a situation, one can think it is bad, the other can think it is good - and neither is ultimately right or wrong, because morals would be subjective.
2. On what grounds do people make their moral claims - and why are they any more valid than anyone else's if morals are subjective?
3. If objective morals do exist; the morals need to derive from somewhere. I don't believe an objective moral can derive from humans directly - i think they are realized by humans. To say an objective moral derives from a human, you'd have to give good reason as to why one's moral frameworks are any more valid than any other (regardless of the outcomes of the morals) to be objectively true, rather than just a different existential choice.
4. How do you adjudicate between two different moral frameworks, when each person believes their morals are superior than the other? Is there a standard that is objective? Or is it all subjective?
Finally - Morals & Consequential-ism are two different things which shouldn't be confused.
Spoken like a true philosopher! You raise legitimate ethical questions. Voted up.
W/O religion, morals r subjective! Each think "right!" Scientist r objective yet still DO NOT have ANSWERS to ALL! Why? Because "man" will NEVER understand ALL of GOD'S WAYS!
No it is not so as some people who used to make their own's life's rule either he/she is religious or non religious they led their life with certian morals even some times they didn't know about it just as you don't know about religious moral you need to sit with a religiuos knower who can properly tell you about it and its not a topic of being scared away
Your question is a little too vague. By religion and religous people do you mean Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims? And what did these people say to you directly about atheists being immoral? (And you can't include what a family member said because family members may not be able to give you an opinion not tainted by familiarity.
Or are these just words you're repeating that you were told. I've been alive a long time and have never heard anyone say you had to be religious to be moral. If religion helps a person to hold themselves to a higher standard then is it not a good thing?
Yes I know, I'm going to hear that tired ole "alot of bad things have been done in the name of religion" and I say to you, alot of bad things have been done period. We can waste alot of time, going back and forth on that. I would say if you're confident with what you believe, you not only don't need the affirmation of groups that have different belief, you also don't go out looking to disparage them. I have come to believe that only those who feel guilty about who they are and what they believe try to blame those who believe different. Get over yourself. You're not different, you're not special, and you're not better than others. Instead of picking fights go out and make a difference in your neighborhood. You dont have to prove you're a moral person, if you are one.
Your last sentence says it all! A good person is just being a good person. Religion or lack of religion has nothing to do with it.
I'm always a little confused about this blaming the entire population of an organization for an opinion an individual gives. Makes no sense. It's like saying all atheists are satanists.
Using the word organization loosely to refer to Christianity. Never heard atheists complain about what Muslims or Buddhist etc say.
Then you haven't been reading it right. Atheists do not believe in ANY god - Christian, Muslim, Buddhist or otherwise. ALL religion is flawed and there is no way to prove which religion is the RIGHT one! Because there is no evidence for a god or gods
What I'm saying is atheists only complain about what christians say. Never heard atheists telling a Muslim Allah doesn't exist. I'm ok with my beliefs. If you were confident with yours, you'd move on in your life. Obviously you have doubts.
It's so nice that you know what is in my head! Doubts? No, I do not have any doubts. Why must you ASSUME these things? I am an atheist and I am saying that Allah doesn't exist. There is no evidence for ANY god or gods.
To those who say religion bad, atheism good, look at the atheist Soviet Union and Red China. Not a whole lot there to brag about human rights wise. Neither was exactly a bastion of morality. People do bad things under any banner.
Who is saying that? Atheists are saying that no god exists. Atheists are unable to find this god. Believers are the ones associating "good" with this invisible god. To us, humans are responsible for their own goodness or badness. Not religion.
Austinstar, I was responding to Northeast Timber's concern that certain anti-religious persons would bring up all the bad done by religious. I was offering a balance to their argument.
Supposed we adopt a naturalist perspective in which everything in the universe is subject to the supposedly natural laws of physics, biology, and chemistry. (It is grim but...) In this worldview, there is no god, no afterlife, and eventually the sun and stars will burn out, and the universe will continue to expand without any trace of humanity or earth.
In the meantime, lifeforms die and that is it; their matter mixes back into Mother Earth to enable the continuation of the circle of life. Immortality in any form or shape, even for inanimate objects, is impossible for naturalists because everything will eventually end.
There are two main reasons why morals are tied closely with religions. 1) consequentialism: it is argued that if we do bad things now, we will eventually have to pay the punishments in the afterlife; 2) moral duties promise of rewards in the afterlife. Furthermore, the concept of the afterlife is very important as well.
So if naturalists reject the ideas of god and the afterlife, then they also are forced to reject heavenly values such as religious ethical codes. After all, if we abolish god and heaven, all talks of ethics must be lowered to the plane of humanity. Thus, it begs the question: if there is no afterlife, no eternal glory or punishments, then what is stopping humans from acting in their self-interests whether or not it would be ethically acceptable? In other words, without god or the afterlife, would humans have moral obligations? Why or why not?
Naturalist philosophers today have attempted reconciling the detached (doom and gloom) world of physics, biology, and chemistry with non-religious ethical codes, values, and virtue. It is a tricky task, though, to convincingly reason why one should not take the money and run if one is so inclined, especially given the empirical standards of epistemology today. Nevertheless, this is why the concepts of religion and morality are still so closely related.
I dislike providing my personal ideas on this topic (or any philosophical topic for that matter) but it has been provoked. Regardless whether an individual is religious or atheist, I believe moral obligations must come from an individual's love of life. To love life to to love each other, to care for one another, and to reach beyond base self-interests and to promote a collective love of life called family & community. For the well-ordered mind (religious or not), love makes life, even death, a wonderful adventure worth having.
I agree that religions often forget the laws of naturalism. That is when they become cults. People need to realize though that most consequences are experienced in this life. Morality is an issue for those clever enough to get away with bad behavior.
False logic - "Immortality in any form or shape, even for inanimate objects, is impossible for naturalists because everything will eventually end." - Immortality MEANS that there is no end! No beginning, no end - Infinity is real.
Hence: "for naturalists." (this is not my logic)
It sounds as though you are against naturalism.
Neither for nor against. I consider it a perspective: nothing more, nothing less.
Bran: So SAD! When u do rt do u not exp a "good feeling?" Where does that come fm? Righteousness=GOD (morals=innate) for we were "created in His image!" When baby born "clean (righteous) slate!" We teach "unrighteousness" if not WORD!
To me has a practicing catholic there is nothing wrong with being an atheist, it's your choice not to believe, and it's wrong for me to try to cram religion down your throat unless it's ask for. An atheist can be a moral person but they must check there carnal and most basic desires. If they are naturally a empathetic person there isn't a problem.
I do have a problem though with Athesim in a society I do believe is dangerous, mainly because it promotes apathy or not caring about anyone or the outside world. This can be very, very dangerous has it leads to a cheapening of live and morals. If it feels good, do it there's no consequences and I do believe that it leads to misery for the person doing that and the people around him.
That's not to say being a Christian automatically makes you an empathetic person or less likely to do it. We all know people who believe that god's on there side regardless of what they do, or they demand people follow the good books word according to there interpretation and forget the meanings of the words in the book. And yes they annoy a lot of Christians too.
I too was raised to fear atheists. Having surveyed other religions, I have discovered all teach empathy. Some religions are atheist; all that means is they don't believe one supernatural power controls everything, but still subject to Cause & Eff
The only thing keeping an atheist from being amoral is fear of consequences at the hands of the secular government. If there is no God there is no good or bad, only rules (laws) and consequences for violating those rules.
DW - no, not quite. Atheists can be, and many are, inherently moral. Doing good 4 goods sake, not Gods nor laws. THere R laws that could b seen as immoral - ie death penalty killing another 2 prove killing is wrong? Many atheists r anti-death penalty
Again I say "Unbelievers" exp "good feeling" when doing right also! Why? Morals r innate! We r connected to "righteousness" (GOD) & why we exp that "good feeling!"
You ask a good question there. No it doesn't scare me (why would it?)
I'll grant that some pretty horrendous things have been done in the name of religion, but that doesn't mean that the concepts behind it are wrong, just the way we've misinterpreted and at times deliberately misrepresented it have caused the problems!
By the way, I totally agree with the two points you put up in the comments, if you don't believe then no explanation is possible, but if you have faith no explanation is necessary! Having said that maybe by engaging with each other the two sides can at least understand where the other 'is coming from'
To me 'perfect love casts out all fear' (1st John 4 verse 18) so there is no need for me to fear!
The majority of the world's religions give a 'Moral code' based in who God is and the majority of believers in those religions seek to follow the codes they've been given, most do it out of a fear but the ones who truly believe cross that bridge realizing that it's only by God's grace we can 'live the life'! We still want to, but out of love for him and reverence (often mistranslated 'fear') for who he is!
As for the Athiest, I'd say they can be moral, but what do they use to set their standards? And for what purpose?
Exactly, Lawrence: "As for the Atheist, I'd say they can be moral, but what do they use to set their standards?" If an atheist abandons the idea of the afterlife, reconciling moral obligations with just the plane of humanity is a tricky task.
I'm an atheist and it's not tricky at all to be a good moral person. Why would you think that?
It is a puzzle to define 'good' and 'moral' within the atheist worldview because the lack of empirical evidence. There is no empirical evidence that suggests the existence of something being good or moral: same argument used against god's existence.
Oh I think the empirical evidence for morality is simply to do no harm to others.you know, like a doctor or.like a responsible human being. Doing harm to others is wrong, no matter your religion.
So self-defense is wrong? Does this include all life-forms as well or just humans? So harming vegetation is wrong? Using mouthwash to 'kill' bacteria is wrong? Slaughtering chickens, cows, and other livestock for food is wrong? Explain yourself.
If you ever studied Jainism (I'm pretty sure you haven't) then you would know that killing anything (even bacteria) is wrong. Self-defense is an instinct, not a "moral". & I'm talking about deliberate harm, not accidental.
So you went from being an Atheist to Jainist? You cannot use any worldview and religion to take what you like about it and then discard the rest! You are setting yourself up for contradictions! Define: 'right' and 'wrong' using empirical evidence.
Wow! You really need to READ the comment instead of assuming stuff. I did not say I was a Jainist. And ALL religion is taking bits and pieces of history and choosing what to believe and NOT believe - ie: cherry picking.
If you are an Atheist, as you said, then you need to play logic on your own playing field. Don't take a baseball onto the basketball court. Also, you are not arguing with me, you are arguing with Sartre, Mackie, & Kant: no god = no base for moral
No, it looks like I am arguing with YOU. Those other people are not commenting here. You really need a healthy dose of reality, don't you?
You argue with them through a concept called intertexuality (look it up). Ad hominem attacks are ineffective means for debate. Even atheist leaders, past and present, argue that morality was invented by man, not innate; hence why morals are relative.
Don't take this debate personally. Ideas grow during moments of challenge and opposition (Socratic Method). If I seemed too difficult it is only because I have a love for the game in which there are no determinable answers. Thank you for playing.
Because they were "invented" by man doesn't mean they are tied to religion in any easy, so what exactly is your point?
The point is "if an atheist abandons the idea of the afterlife, reconciling moral obligations with just the plane of humanity is a tricky task" and "as for the Athiest, I'd say they can be moral, but what do they use to set their standards?"
LOL, you guys!
Lawrence01 - "As for the Athiest, I'd say they can be moral, but what do they use to set their standards?" The Laws of Cause and Effect.
So if everything is reduced to causation then you would be arguing an ethics of consequentialism. We would run through an entirely new vein of questions and puzzles in which there would be no answers to-- again -- if we were to embark on this trek.
LFFL - that's the point. It's not really a different path, because all religions are originally based on Cause and Effect. They become cults when they stray from that - example, snake handlers.
My thought is that ALL FAITHS have the same root! Some have 'wandered' more than others but they have the same source, GOD! He gave us the morals, he gave the Athiest their (conscience) all morals have the same source GOD! Without him it doesn't work
LAW: Amen! That's why we shouldn't listen to what MAN has interpreted as "truth" but STUDY for ourselves for Satan operates thru "religion" to lose souls!
Once you accept Jesus as your personal savior; the Holy Spirit comes and resides in your heart and you yearn to do the right things in life. You don't do it out of the fear of punishment but out of love; Love for God and your fellow man.
Troy: This Q comes fm "unbeliever" who doesn't have any idea what Holy Spirit is! Trying to explain "Spirit" to "unblvr" like trying to explain "evolution" to "blvr!" They rely on "self" but we KNOW GOD is Higher than man!
Thank you Troy, that is the correct answer
Based on the same with relationships, if your children just did things out of fear
You would not have a relationship based on love but fear, Even in a husband and wife relationship that would be abuse.
K&T: Well if one "yearns to do the right things in life," why not do what IS WRITTEN? (Eph 4:4-6) ALL "ONE" who is GOD (Jehovah) whose Name is JESUS! (Phil 2:9-11) Either He LIED or 1 doesn't "yearn!"
before i became a Christan i had morals you don't need a religion to have morals. morals is a person's standards of behavior or beliefs concerning what is and is not acceptable for them to do. as long as you have a consciousness you have your own morals. there are a lot of corrupt religious figures with little to no morals just as there are nonreligious people in the same light. I personally applaud atheist with high morals and ethics because they do it out of the goodness of there heart and not to impress god.
HOPE MY RESPONSE WAS RELEVANT
Little known of Holy Spirit if u think Believers do it just "to impress god!" Holy Spirit (aka Jesus) above "man's" righteousness or morality! Therefore, Q & most responses shows lack of knowledge of THE HOLY SPIRIT!
I think that traditionally religion dictates right and wrong and for some this is still the case. However, I have never needed religion or the state for this purpose and find many beliefs to be OTT as to why they can or cannot do something.
I very much doubt that there is a God who is watching and controlling, from what I understand the universe does not work that way, people should take responsibility for their own actions and not use "god" as a tool of justification, suppression or control. I do not believe that atheists are necessarily immoral but have seen many so call religious people who are. I find it concerning that otherwise intelligent people blindly follow dictates without question.
The question is not having or not having faith in religion. The question is about being moral instinctively or because of the fear and dictation of religion.
It does scare me, because religion which can make people moral can also dictate them to be immoral, and world wide there are no scarcity of such examples.
So if morality is only associated with religion, it is of more possibility that people would become immoral as it won't come out of love and care for humanity, but only as a thoughtless following of religions where logic has been discarded long back to judge things.
Well, if you think about it, morals are dictated by religion. But wait! Before anyone bites my head off, hear me out.
What is morality? The distinction between right behavior and wrong behavior. It may be derived from any culture, philosophy, religion or any other code of conduct, even T&Cs or sometimes the selfish and blind rationalizations of ones own desires and intentions.
What is religion? It is primarily a system of beliefs. It also serves to dictate what is right and what is wrong, for some people.
The problem here is that while some put religion on a divine pedestal, morality has one of its own.
Have you ever seen a religious nut condemn in someway another person for doing or saying or believing something disagreeable?
Now, have you ever seen a person condemned, again for something which is supposedly disagreeable to someone else, but to you seems just fine. Well the condemner in the second case doesn't act by merit of religion, but of morality.
Moral people can be just as destructive, ignorant and false. Not all though, just like not all religious people are nuts.
Religion is a system of belief which has as one component, morality. Morality is system of belief, about what is right and what is wrong. Religion dictates morality. Since I put neither on a pedestal and use neither as food for my own ego or merit for my actions, it doesn't bother me.
How do I know the difference between right and wrong? I don't. But when I feel guilt, shame, fear, regret, I pay a little attention. Other times I do know because it's a matter of arithmetic so to speak. But generally, I don't know whats the best way to try and make a million bucks, and I don't know whether or not such a thing is right or wrong, from one case to the next.
We just do our best to co operate. That's more than enough sense to hold you back from the urge to commit genocide.
RL: Keep "listening" to that "inner feeling" (GOD) which tells you right fm wrong! We're "created in His Image" is why you have that "feeling" for u r "connected" to that SPIRIT!
They say women are exploited over and over, but you see women taking money everyday for showing their body off whether it be Hollywood or pornography! So which is it. It's like the black's not liking the "N" word but using it on each other w/o fail!
For A to exploit B, two things must be satisfied. B must be at a disadvantage to A who has the upper hand. A must then use the disadvantage of B for it's own gain and to the detriment of B.
So Norine acknowledging holy spirit is not enough, God grants his gift , if you are not right, not truthful not peaceful, or peacemaker, then you will not receive his gift, but you can receive a spirit that is not the Father's.
Gin: The "N" word is term of endearment w/in culture. Outside=derogatory! Like saying "What's up bro" or What's up "N?" When others use culture perceives as "slavery" or "degrading!"
RL: Yes, it's all about "the money" no matter who is exploited!
Scare? That's a strange statement.
From my knowledge of religion- whether it's monotheistic, pantheistic, whatever, the goals are usually to have people live better lives, show more care for their fellow man.
I have found that people sometimes behave selfishly. Having something - whether it's oral traditions passed on through time, guidance from more experienced people, etc- external to you to present another perspective that you can think about helps you sort through and make the best decisions.
We are all influenced by something. We determine what influences us. However, in the end, nothing or no one can make our decisions for us. We ultimately determine how we act in public or private.
For example not stating to anyone personally, but the pagan beliefs and of Christians mixed, example the festivities of the Sun God pagan deitie was combined with the Son of God, The Edic Of Milan , Adopted the mixtures of Christain And Pagan
Which is DEATH! It's ALL SPIRITUAL or one cannot "see!"
I am really not sure. It is relative, assumed by who first of all. So far all my friends and family generally agree upon the fact that religion and moral has nothing to do with one another. You can be a good hindu, muslim, christian or buddhist, you can also be a bad one.
If however, I find myself living in a world where moral is dictated by religion then yes it is scary and I would definitely find it scary. So I guess in that sense I am a very lucky person who be surrounded by people who are not backward.
Morals are not dictated by religion but religion is a way to teach people what morals are. I know there are people who think them as religious or spritual, still are invlove in doing wrong deeds. But you need to see also the flip side of the coin, there are people who spared themselves of negative deeds just because of religion. you just need to see the optimism in the religion, you will not be scared anymore.
The problem is that most people do not understand that religion is one thing and spiritual belief is another. Religion is defined by a title such as Catholic, Baptist, Jewish etc. Spiritual belief is belief in one's faith of a higher being, or being close to nature etc. So in answer to your question I do not believe that Morals have anything to do with religion. Morals are what one is raised as a child and develops as an adult what is right and what is wrong. It is a person's personal belief once again. It can be taught in childhood or learned as we get older. So yes those who do not have a certain religion can still have morals. Hope this was the answer you were looking for.
You see what is happening without God. The generation that is most at risk was brought up by parents that did not bring the Bible into the home and it's sad that so many women can be bought with a dollar and placed on the Internet doing whatever they are paid to do, and don't call me a liar, just take a look. People actually rank celebrities with Gods as the Roman's did because they can do and say including their bodies and the "N" word whenever they please. Our President says he is a Christian yet he was raised in three Muslim Countries and that's all he know's so this is what he preaches. We are in a bad situation right now and it is going to take someone with backbone to go through Congress and not run to the UN, which I think was a cowards, Constitutionally way of handling hte Iran issue. Without a belief in God, you have no belief because you, yourself don't have the answers and nothing to compare too.
My parents "originated" fm Baptist! Do you think I'm one today? Why can't president also change? I don't see Muslims in White House for worship service or it would've made "headlines!"
If Obama's a Muslim then why is he criticized for having attended the controversial Trinity United Church of Christ when he lived in Chicago?
You said "he was raised in three Muslim Countries and that's all he know's" which contradicts your statement re" Trinity United Church of Christ!" Are u saying "that's all he knows" or beliefs in line w/ "Trinity United Church of Christ?"
The answer to where morals arise goes back to the days when humans first began to shift from being small family oriented bands of hunter/gatherers to settling into agricultural villages and towns. Our ancient ancestors had to come up with rules that would allow them to live together peaceably. As the size of these communities grew into cities, states, and nations, these rules took on the patina of commands and commandments. As worship of ancestors evolved into worship of unseen gods, these commandments took on the weight of religious dictates; dictates one violated at the cost of dooming ones eternal soul.
Prior to the first aggregations of humans into communities, the needs of survival obviated the need for morals. Morals are a human construct necessitated by learning to live in multi-family communities.
There are a lot of good answers here, which partially supports my point of view that it's really scary if we stick to the moral code just because of religion.
I'm very disheartened to see a few people stating that they are okay with doing good since God has told or dictated them to do and more troubling is their claim is that atheists will have a problem finding a standard moral code or even purpose to do good in their life. As an atheist myself, I want to defend that.
Suppose, you are walking down the road in the morning and you see a man tormenting a stray dog. Do you need a God's verdict to say, whether the man is doing right or wrong? Do you really need a scripture saying "It's bad to do...." to take an action against it?
No, I guess. Your believes, your moral codes, "standards" actually come from your environment, your parents, your childhood or the formative years of your life. Many of these religious doctrines have been ingrained in us from the childhood. But just think a moment, if there were no religion in the world, just your parents teaching you what's right and what's wrong, wouldn't you have the same moral codes?
Nope! Parents teach what they've learned yet we exp diff influences! We exp diff ppl o/s home & sometimes adhere to their beliefs + other.
As "preacher's kid," doctrine differs fm parents' so not "ingrained..."
Holy Spirit "tells" bible confi
A lot of moral and morality is in fact rooted in religion. Atheism, while not a new concept, has only become a mainstream idea since the 1950's I would wager. By stripping away all religion and all the lessons taught by religion you do lose a significant aspect of humanity. One could argue this loss might be why our society is failing the way that has been.
I tottaly differ from your opinion. Atheists become more in tune with humanity when they give up the notion of religion. We no longer seek out invisible dieties to save us from ourselves. We are humans!
As I mentioned elsewhere, religion grew out of human kind's need for moral values, which need arose when we went from being hunting/gathering tribes to living in agricultural groups that eventually became cities and towns.Religion sprang from there.
Kyle: It is "why our society is falling..." Most r confusing "religion" w/GOD & there's a difference! Religion=organized beliefs v GOD="Spiritual!" Morals (innate) r fm GOD not "religions!" We ALL get "good feeling" when doing rt="Connected!"
For my personal point of view, I don't believe that morals are dictated by Religion. I think that doing good things only when someone's watching (even if it is God) is a kind of hypocrisy . We should do good things without even thinking if someone's watching. We should do good things because it comes naturally, and by that I think God will become happier. Atheists are also people who don't believe in God. They are people who lack belief in God. And I don't think we can judge them with the way they were. There are also some of them who are really good people.
There are some people who always go to church and say the longest prayers which are more sinful than these Atheists.
If you don't believe there is a God, then you don't believe that he set down the ten commandments. The ten commandments are used in most western societies as law, setting a moral compass. In this day and age these laws only work if the justice system is a fair one. Judges 21:25 Everyman did that which was right in his own eyes. Make of that verse what you will. Imagine living in a world where people can do what they think is right, after all you wouldn't have God to answer to. Just an interesting thought.
Funny how most of the 10 are no longer followed - adultery, Murder (death penalty...killing to show killing is wrong??). But I do see what you are talking about. Thanks for sharing.
Helen: We are moving more in that direction (" Imagine living in a world where people can do what they think is right,") for this is Satan's Kingdom & "man" estab "laws" to appease "men!" Man's heart is evil so evil laws estab! (Gen 6:5;8:21)
Well, look at it from the other direction. From a naturalist view of reality that pertains to this topic, one is only dealing with survival of the fittest or natural selection, in which all kinds of goodness can be found and written about in humans murdering other humans for the good of the whole and preventing the alleged evolution of the species from trending to the mean. In this mindset, things like exterminating the useless eaters becomes a good thing where the definitions of good and evil shift randomly on the whim of human urges and delusion. It's not that religious people are less immoral than professing atheists. Religious are superstitious and frankly I don't believe atheists even exist. Both groups as you call them can be equally foolish and askew in their perception of reality. But the point is not that "God" is watching, but that things like good and evil and human life have a preset and true value regardless of what a bunch little Hitlers running around in the world think of it.
Religion was created by man, therefore morals were created by man.
You are on the right path of logic but you are missing a premise. You are saying A -> B, therefore A-> C. You need a premise to connect B (religion) and C (morals) otherwise you are making an association fallacy.
Fine. Religion, B, was created by man, infusing morals, C. My point is that religion is a man-made thing used to control the masses.
Pop: "Control masses?" I guess "Religion" is but not Disciples of Christ! There's a diff! Have u ever heard "preacher's kids worst?" No Lie! I am! Couldn't "Control" me! But HE (JESUS) "Calls!" Then u "want too!" SPIRITUAL!
Religion was created by the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Man revised it to suit their philosophy's and ideals.
Gin: "Religion" was not "created by..." Did u not see Christ "fulfill religion" when He went into Synagogues?
Religion="WORKS!" James 1:27 gives biblical definition of "religion!"
I think Morals were created by God. God gave us the Ten Commandments, and much more. God can do things that would be believed impossible. God has had forever to be intelligent enough to create anything, and everything. Our human minds may not be able to truly comprehend what God can do. The word atheist is only a word, I never label anyone.
Believe in whatever you wish, o not wish to believe in. I believe in what I want to believe in, and nothing will change that. There is a billion reasns why there is a God. God Bless Everyone.
The statement "I believe in what I want to believe in, and nothing will change that" goes against Scripture! (Prov 3:5) Not how YOU perceive, but what IS WRITTEN in His Word! Did Peter not "succumb" to Paul's revelation under New Covenant re: circu?
I believe in God. I believe in miracles. I have never been a perfect Christian, but I love God, and would die for God, country, and for my family. God saved my life when I was a police officer. God saved my life many times. God helped me save lives.
Star439, humans judgments are imperfect,
God's is always reliable and just. I am happy you share your faith , this up builds others. Thank you.
Star: I love you for that & so does He! Study! (II Tim 2:15)! Gal 1:6-9 "After the Cross" is where we should live today! Please Study His Word (not man/religion) if you love the Lord!
by TahoeDoc 9 years ago
Do you believe religion is needed for morality? Is the bible the only guide to morality?If you believe these things, do you really think you would go around commiting crimes and immoral acts if the bible didn't tell you not to? I actually give (most) people more credit than that, don't you? If this...
by ngureco 4 years ago
Why Are Most Atheists More Intelligent Than Religious People?
by Abdus Salaam 4 years ago
Morals are dictated by religions, without using scripture, how would an atheist discourage incest?
by Nichol marie 4 years ago
Do you believe that some religious people are to blame for, more people becoming atheists?Maybe people feel as though they are not ever good enough not because of God but because of other people condemning everything and give up on pursuing to be "Good"
by Virginia 6 years ago
I believe that so many children would grow up smarter and having a better intillecual veiw on the world if society didn't shove religion down their throtes. There are many good religious people who are smart, but if someone doesn't want to believe then it should be their choice. This whole...
by lanablackmoor 7 years ago
Do you think religion compels morality, or does morality determine religion?Obviously the relationship is somewhat multi-directional for most people, but I'm wondering which you think is more powerful. Do people usually choose a religion that aligns with their preexisting morality? Or do they...
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