Where can I find a question that is less rooted in the kind of reasoning two-year-olds use?
I'm bored, my wife isn't up yet, and I'm still amped from three straight days of candy and cookies and pies and cakes and... all that stuff. lol.
Check the other religious and political forums. Nothing but well reasoned argument there.
Well, it's not like you lack experience. You should be smart enough to ignore my posts by now, shouldn't you?
Should I expect a dry cleaning bill? If so, please send it to Mark Ewbie. He has kindly agreed to cover all such expenses for me until the end of the year, when I will have to find a new benefactor - or pay for things my self, which is unlikely.
That sounds like a good idea; another thread reports that Mark is now making money with HP. Perhaps we should all send him our cleaning bills.
I don't know. I had to make certain promises. Now, true, I lied through my teeth when I made them, but Mark never reads these religious posts, so he'll never know.
Besides, he'd just spend the money on something silly. Better it come here to me in America than be wasted by him in Euroland, wherever THAT is.
Of course, if people like Habee would just train their eyes to look for the clown wig and skip by the post without reading, I wouldn't need Mark's money at all.
I have a different take on this issue. It is true that there are more people coming out as opposed to before. Is this HIS way of controlling human population? If yes, that could mean the scriptures have not kept up with HIS viewpoint.
Disclaimer: I do not have a bone in this fight (love dogs) and believe in Live and Let Live. We all serve HIM in our own way.
Only on planet earth which is satans realm so far as I can see, but then, I am not of this world.
Are you a friend of Adam, or of Steve? I imagine one of them will invite you to the wedding, if you are.
Usually directions to the ceremony and the reception are included in the invitation.
Boy, you guys are obsessed with the gay thing. It seems to be treated as a worse sin than murder. Did you all miss the part in the Bible about the only person supposedly who can judge is God?
It's open to interpretation, of course, but quite a few people think the Bible does have its own Adam and Steve.
I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women. 2 Samuel 1:26
Instead of trying to pervert the scripture in this manner, why not inform the reader that Jonathan the son of King Saul is talking with David and David had befriended Jonathan to try and gain information about King Saul to use against the king.
Some people just like to try and pervert the scriptures. Not on my watch though.
Pretending to be Jonathan's friend to get information out of him hardly puts David in a better light!
It's very clear that they were genuinely friends. Whether it was a heterosexual life partners situation or a homosexual one... who knows? It's not like David was really a paragon of ancient Hebrew sexual morality anyway. After all, he committed adultery and then essentially murdered his lover's husband - compared to that, being bisexual is pretty minor!
Um, no. Not necessarily. Since you're trying to put it into perspective, then you need to understand the WHOLE book and actually read how many times it says that King David loved Johnathan above the love of a woman or equally physical descriptions. It's not just once. These guys were pretty tight, and the inference throughout is MORE than just an emotional bond. You can argue this any way you like, all day long, but when wording is that provocative, even from thousands of years ago, we can likely infer there was a pretty physical connection between them. And part of that was most likely sex. And it is founded in the culture and people of those times. The Greeks of the day were often bisexual, as were men of many other cultures. It's probably true in this case as well.
kerry - that is just sick. Besides, reference to the 'love of a woman' generally meant love, not sex.
I'm just saying it's open to interpretation, that's all.
I have been informed by people who know Hebrew that there's some kind of hinky wording at several points - especially 1 Samuel 20:41, where they kiss each other and cry together and there is a Hebrew phrase that is usually translated as something like "David cried more" or "David exceeded" but is also slang for "David had an erection."
Not to speak of Ruth and Naomi, or the centurian and his beloved "servant" in The New Testament.
Weren't Ruth and Naomi; Mother and Daughter-in-law?
Nice idol you are worshiping in your avatar. Is that a Golden Cross I see there? God hates hypocrisy and will burn you for all eternity unless you change your evil ways. I see you are selling "Christ-based businesses," as well. Dear me. No wonder this country is going to the dogs.
They could prolly do a better job than most politicians actually...
Nor should we mention the incredibly "deep" friendship and love shared between Johnathan and King David....or for that matter, the bond between Christ and John the Beloved.
WHY do straight people care about gay unions? It's not like they're going to force you to join in! How will a gay marriage harm you or affect your life in any way? I certainly wouldn't want to be persecuted for my sexual preferences or for whom I love.
Because Adam and Steve may have booked the reception hall that my son and future daughter-in-law wanted to use! Curse them!
Lol, Jeff! Maybe you could talk Adam and Steve into a double wedding with your son?? You could all share the cost - a win-win situation!
"Love thy neighbor as thyself": means to care for all people and have compasssion towards their needs.
We are to forgive and accept the sinner through love BUT DENOUNCE the Sin. No sin is too big for God to forgive. Therefore, as faithful disciples we should be open and eager to share the Gospel with everyone regardless of their sin or affliction. However, making Jesus the Lord of our lives means striving towards holiness and turning away from our sinful nature. Therefore, while being open to all sinners, we ought NOT accept, ignore, or promote ANY SIN as permissible.
God is the final judge and it is not our role to do so, but God is also pretty clear about what He wants:
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
(1 Corinthians 6:9-10 NIV)
TYVM everyone... It's all about Him and God's love for us all.
Everything can be forgiven if we merely come home to our Father in Heaven through Chirst (I won't even dignify the other comments but I do feel compassion for them and do pray that all who disagree with the teachings of Jesus will have the seed planted here, that they may later experience the full glory of God's love and His gift to us!).
Actually, some scholars believe arsenokoitai is more accurately translated as "pimps" than "homosexual offenders" or "sodomites." In other Greek literature of the time it was used to refer to someone who exploited sexual activity for financial gain.
That would make more sense to me because it would be a willful act. People do not choose to be homosexual.
I bet people don't always choose to have fetishes for little kids either, but they've got enough sense to know it's wrong. And especially they know better than to try to persuade others to legalize it.
At least they used to. Who knows now what taboos are gonna be broken, riding the coattails of the homosexual agenda? That one guy's already trying it, that actor who drugged and raped a juvenile girl...Roman Polansky wasn't it?
Every liberal likes to say it's all harmless, but it is not. When morality is dismissed or re-labeled, it leads to chaos, and people need to start listening to the warnings.
I know homosexuals who will tell you it's wrong, and that they're struggling with their temptations just like recovering alcoholics struggle to maintain their lives for the good. And those people are to be commended greatly; I have great admiration for their willingness at self-control. God is pleased with them. The homosexual activists are doing those people, as well as all of America, a huge disservice.
"I bet people don't always choose to have fetishes for little kids either, but they've got enough sense to know it's wrong."
Well, a little kid can't give his or her informed, competent, adult consent, either.
Therefore, anyone who'd try to have sex with a little kid is committing a crime against that little kid.
A grown-up, however, can give his or her informed, competent, adult consent. Therefore, sex between informed, competent, consenting adults is not a crime.
"I know homosexuals who will tell you it's wrong, and that they're struggling with their temptations just like recovering alcoholics struggle to maintain their lives for the good. And those people are to be commended greatly; "
No, those people are to be pitied. They've been taught to hate themselves for wanting something that, as long as its between informed, competent, consenting adults, is not wrong, except in the eyes of those who would control their behavior.
"God is pleased with them."
Yeah, you sat in on the annual evaluation meeting, did you?
"The homosexual activists are doing those people, as well as all of America, a huge disservice."
The homosexual activists don't really care if someone decides to be celibate. They just don't want anyone to force them to be celibate, as the religious right would do.
Any God who makes ~10% of the population fall in love with people of the same sex and then says they can never, ever act on their love unless they want to go to hell is no God I care to worship. That's just cruel.
Moreover, many Christian sects believe that any sex involving unmarried couples, adulterous couples, and even married couples using birth control is a sin, so if we're going to be literal about interpreting the Bible, most of the people in this forum are probably going to hell.
I'm not espousing any religion, just saying people don't choose to be gay but they do choose to have sex. I don't choose to be straight but I can choose to have sex. In the eyes of the Christian God, if I had sex before marriage, that is a sin as well.
The way I understand it, one does not go to hell if one claims Jesus as the Saviour, regardless of how often or how badly one has sinned. The claiming of said Saviour would necessarily direct ones thoughts and deeds away from sin if the thoughts were disciplined and sincere.
"I don't choose to be straight but I can choose to have sex."
True. I wonder why the religious right isn't trying to criminalize premarital heterosexual sex? I mean, it's just as much a sin as gay sex, right? But nobody's trying to criminalize it. I assume that it's because gays are few in number, and therefore an easy target. Typical bully strategy: hit the weakest targets.
habee, you are going to get yourself a migraine if you keep trying to make sense of this. There is no getting thru to some. I had to take two Aleve a little while ago.
I note you did not include female prostitutes as barred from heaven. If I can find one and "befriend" her is it possible she might drag me to heaven with her? Riding her coattails so to speak?
I guess I can be viewed as being sexually immoral because I dont have sex to reproduce the way I am "SUPPOSED" to as I was taught in my religion growing up. I have sex because I like to share that part of me with my husband and I like it.
A woman's only purpose was to be fruitful, ughhh. My uterus would have fallen out already if I had taken those teachings literal. I also use protection, which is another thing we are not supposed to do either.
So I guess I am a big disappointment. All this stuff just gives me a headache.
"Love thy neighbor as thyself"
Yeah, but I thought that self-love was bad, too. Wasn't that one of Christine O'Donnel's planks?
what ever the world does is their business, but there should be no laws upholding SIN,
the clergy should not marry gays
there should not be any gay clergy
there should not be priest that abuse children
Where can I find a place where - what - the day after Christmas someone can apparently be so bored he thinks up yet another "Adam and Steve" thread? Couldn't it have at least been a "Madame and Eve" thread for a change?
Brenda, I'm far from being a liberal. Having consensual sex with another adult is not the same thing as raping or molesting a minor.
I have a close relative who's gay. Coming from a religious family, he tried for years to convince himself that he was straight and dated numerous females to prove it. Intimacy with a woman, however, made him physically sick and filled him with revulsion. He didn't choose to be gay, and he didn't WANT to be gay.
Habee, I know you believe that, but it makes no sense. What's revolting about a woman's body? Nothing. And for sure if a man can stand to have sex with another man, considering the aspect of cleanliness, they could surely stand to have sex with a woman. That's where I believe those people have been conditioned somehow, either by example or by seduction of some kind or by rape (mental or literal) to think it's revolting to have natural sex. It may be that they have intimacy problems that they need to resolve via counseling or some avenue, rather like the man or woman who remains single all their lives or cheats constantly so they won't be tied down to one mate; maybe even afraid of the direct responsibility of fatherhood/motherhood.
Sounds like sex as a duty - "for God and country", I guess.
Brenda, I do not condemn homosexuals for their actions, but there is nothing normal about same sex attraction and that's a fact. I love everyone. It's odd how others get angry with us when we don't accept wrongdoing. Most people who are homosexuals have been raped. I have read and heard great testimonies of people speaking out about how God delivered them from a homosexual life. They realize this lifestyle was wrong, and reached out to God to deliver them. God set them free.
That is very brave of you to cast judgment and point out "wrong doings" of others.
"Most people who are homosexuals have been raped."
I especially liked this one. Very nice. Belittling, but solicitous; passive aggressive - not a direct attack; merely a suggestion that anyone who is homosexual must have suffered to have chosen the "homosexual life," - well done. I like it a lot - this should cause a lot of ill feeling - as you intended.
Not as good as "most atheists have been hurt by the church, and therefore reject god," - but close.
I admire you for your bravery in doing it from behind a fake user name. Well done.
Mark, There you go again masterfully twisting my words. I have not posted a judgemental statement nor did I intend for my response to cause ill-feeling. If it does, I am not sorry for stating truth. Have a Happy New Year
Of course you are not sorry - why would you care if you cause ill feeling? Oh yes - you have a Happy new year also. I hope that as you sow ye shall reap.
"there is nothing normal about same sex attraction and that's a fact."
No judgment - just stating the facts. Dear me.
"there is nothing normal about same sex attraction and that's a fact."
Well, considering that most people are attracted to the opposite sex, it is in fact not normal to be attracted to the same sex.
But this next thing is very important: Note that this doesn't mean that it's wrong or sick to be attracted to the same sex. But it is true that it's not 'normal.'
The problem is that most of us tend to equate 'abnormal' with 'sick' and 'wrong,' which allows the religious right to correctly say homosexuality 'abnormal,' and score a rhetorical victory, not with logos but with pathos.
I mean, most adult Americans own a car. Does this mean that it's abnormal for an American not to own a car? Yes. Does this mean that, for Americans, not owning a car is somehow sick, wrong, or immoral? Nope.
It is not judging to say killing is wrong
it is not judging to say it is wrong to be gay
everyone has a right to their own opinion
unless of course you are a Christian
Christians should keep their opinion to themselves and let the rest of the world speak about their opinions
"It is not judging to say killing is wrong"
Yes, it is. It's a judgment. I happen to generally agree with that judgment, since when you kill someone, you're usually doing it against their will. However, to my mind, there can be mitigating factors, like self-defense and the defense of others, that make killing less bad. That also is a judgment.
"it is not judging to say it is wrong to be gay"
Yes, it is. It's a judgment. I happen to disagree with this judgment, since merely being attracted to the same sex hurts nobody. Even finding an informed, competent, consenting adult to have gay sex with you hurts nobody. There's no deception, there's no coercion, there's no taking advantage, etc. Both parties are willing and getting something out of the act.
"everyone has a right to their own opinion"
Agreed. But it doesn't follow that every opinion is equally valid. For example, the judgment that killing is (usually) wrong is a valid one, since killing someone violates their rights. The judgment that being gay is wrong is an invalid one, since being gay violates nobody's rights.
"Christians should keep their opinion to themselves and let the rest of the world speak about their opinions"
No, Christians have the same rights to voice their opinions as everyone else. But once anyone voices their opinions, they need to be prepared for others to reply with their opinions in turn.
The right to express your opinion does not imply the right never to be disagreed with, especially if you express a silly opinion, like the one that says it's wrong merely to be gay.
I agree with you other than the fact that gay sex is a sin, Christians making that statement does not mean they hate gay people, God loves every one,
everyone can be forgiven of what ever sin they commit, but you can not commit the same sin over and over and ask forgiveness every time you do it, you must ask with the intention of not doing it again. one of the reasons God destroyed Sodom was the men would rather have sex with men rather than virgins or other women,
If a gay person does not repent from their wicked ways they can not go to heaven
no matter what sin someone commits if they do not repent, they are lost.
no one has to agree with that, but someday every one will find out which of us is right
one other thing about this,
The Bible says that in the last days, people will call things that is wrong, they will call it right,
they will say that things that is right is wrong
And you're doing exactly that. Huh. The end times must be upon us.
"Christians making that statement does not mean they hate gay people"
Oh, agreed. Merely saying, "I believe that gay sex is a sin," is not evidence of hating gay people any more than saying "I believe drinking alcohol is a sin," is evidence of hating, oh, bartenders, I guess.
But! When folks say "Since gay sex is a sin, we're going to make a law that makes life miserable for people who want to have gay sex, and make sure that people who have gay sex can never fully participate in society as equal citizens under the law," that's pretty strong evidence for hatred.
Interestingly, once upon a time in our history, we did a little experiment where we put our hatred of drinking into law. It didn't work out too well for us, and we learned that the way to handle such situations is this: if you think drinking is bad, then don't drink.
Of course, a lot more people want to drink alcohol than want to have gay sex, so I imagine the bad effects on society if we had a prohibition of gayness would be a lot smaller. But they;d be there, and I don't want any part of enacting prejudice into law.
I have never seen any laws against gays
there is a law against doing anything against them, which is how it should be, all people should be protected under the law, and it is a shame we have to make laws to get people to do what they should do anyway
there should not be any prejudice in the laws of the land, but there should not be any laws protecting sin either
we are all equal under the law, as it should be
we do have to make laws to protect people from people drinking to much then driving a car and killing people
getting drunk is a sin, drinking is not,
you can consider my opinion invalid all you want, every one has a right to their own opinion, I know a lot of non believers, I respect some of them more than some so called Christians,
I do not try to force my opinion on any one but I will discuss differences of opinions with any one
"I have never seen any laws against gays"
You don't know about the laws keeping them from getting married in many places? Okay. There are laws keeping gays from getting married in many places. There. Now you know about them.
"there should not be any prejudice in the laws of the land, but there should not be any laws protecting sin either"
No laws protecting sin? I don't think we need laws to protect sin, since sinning is so much fun. People will always do it. We need laws to protect people from the effects of sin. You say that getting drunk is a sin. Okay. But I don't see it as threatening to anyone else unless you get behind the wheel, as in your example. We don't make it a crime merely to be drunk, but we make it a crime to get drunk and do stuff that you shouldn't do when drunk, like drive a car, or operate heavy machinery: things that can kill people if you screw them up.
But to get back to the "no laws protecting sin" point, would you consider it a sin for someone else to try to impose their morality upon you? Say a Jewish-majority city tried to impose Mosaic law within its limits. That would make pork-eating (among other things) a sin. Would that be okay with you? Or would you want to be able to travel through that city and not have to worry about unwittingly breaking the law by doing something you don't even think is a sin (and perhaps being stoned to death)?
Are you sure?
But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.
The sins were grevious, and the people not righteous. That doesn't mean it was all about gay sex!
Don't forget, the "righteous" Lot went on to father children with his virgin daughters. A right example to the rest of us.
You're entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts.
Please show any study, even a "Christian science" one, that says most homosexuals have been raped.
Either that, or recant and just restate your loving hatred (or is it hateful loving?) of homosexuality. We're fine with that.
livelonger, No need for me to provide any study. I am sure others have heard many homosexuals speak out how they were molested when they were a child. No, I don't have hateful loving dwelling inside of me, but I have Godly love for people, not sin. Have a Happy New Year. Love and blessings to you.
So you have fabricated a fact out from the anecdotal evidence you've chosen to pay attention to.
What does God say about lying?
I am referring to the title of this thread which is "Gay Union." The same applies to lying, stealing and all sins listed in the bible. Like I stated before, God loves everyone and hate sin. It's a difference. My heart is filled with Godly love, but I will not justify sin.
You made up a fact about it. You are studiously avoiding admitting to that. Again, what does God say about lying?
What? I am not avoiding admitting anything. Are you trying to say that I am lying about most homosexuals have been molested? The facts came from the individuals who once were homosexuals and they were previously raped, so I am have no reason to make up facts. Did you overlook my posts above? Interesting, how some of you can twist words around.
Yes, I am saying you are lying by saying that most homosexuals have been molested or raped.
And, as I said before, if you have evidence supporting your contention, feel free to share it.
Wow, I have been falsely accused for lying. I don't need to show you any evidence for you to believe me. I did not post on this forum for debating. I am going to end this conversation with you before you falsely accuse my first post of hate speech which is not true. Have a Happy New year.
Not falsely. You can see exactly, word-for-word what you wrote here:
Your quote: "Most people who are homosexuals have been raped."
Facts are not a matter of belief.
There does not appear to be anything false about it. Your claims are false and there is plenty of evidence to support that.
You most certainly do if you're going to post off hand statements and claims that are indeed falsifications, whether you lied about or you are spreading lies.
It doesn't matter, if you're going to post false statements, you are going to receive responses in kind. You've done this many times before with exactly the same results.
You would be better to deliver the source of your facts, rather than bandy words around that do not back up your argument. Otherwise it's an insulting personal opinion.
Fact: a verifiable truth
frogdropping, Sorry to disappoint you, but I was never arguring. Have a nice day.
You made a statement that you delivered as fact. I simply asked that you back up your opinion. The choice of the word 'argument' was appropriate. That you chose to read into the word as you did is your prerogative.
I'm not disappointed, not in the least. Why would I be? Most of what I see in this forum is lots of noise but no substance. Very indicative.
More heterosexuals than homosexuals have been sexually molested I would think based on the sheer volume, how do you explain that?
Sexual molestation or rape does not MAKE someone gay!... This is just too much already. People can believe what they want but please do not try to force the word of God down everyones throat using it as an excuxe to be hateful.
What is it that gay people do that is such a sin? Loving the same sex, WOW! I guess I am a sinner because I love my daughter, my sister and my mother who are also the same sex as me.
Does it mean the sexual positions that are sins? Such as having anal and oral sex? Is that what people who are against homosexuals referring to? If so, I guess alot of heterosexual people are sinners too. Gays are not the only ones that have anal and oral sex cornered on the market! Many heteros like this too...
I am sure that those that feel gays are going to hell don't always do the Missionary Position themselves.
"No need for me to provide any study."
Yes there is, if you expect people to take your words seriously. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Without evidence, you're making stuff up.
Very true, Woman of Courage! Their stories just don't always become public knowledge because they choose to deal with their lives more privately, and Amen to that too if that's how they wish. There is (or at least was) a young lady hubber here, though, on this site, who told her story and reached out to people with similar pasts, and current. I'm trying to think of her name.....I know she tried to reach out through the forums too, but got blasted pretty badly for it....
Brenda, I am sure she did get blasted pretty badly.
But I think she's a strong person and is doing well, hopefully. She certainly is doing a good work for the Lord I believe.
I remembered her name. It's R. Shipman. I've had problems before linking to hubs; otherwise I'd post it here; but her screen name here is rshipman.
There is nothing normal about same sex attraction and that's a fact? Really? How do you prove this fact, without quoting the opinions of a book that was rewritten over and over again for hundreds of years?
It is really annoying to have people condemning choices of people that doesn't affect them. Worry about your own soul and leave others alone, please.
There are other ways to live a good life despite what the Church wants you to think, because after all, if more people knew that the Church wouldn't have as much power as it does.
evvy, By reading your post, you don't seem to believe in the word of God. It's not about what the church wants us to think. It's about the true facts in the bible which are inspired by God. Believe what you desire. Love and blessings to you. Have a Happy New Year!
I believe in the word of God not the word of man. My point was that there is not a single way to lead a good life. But preaching hate against any group of people is wrong. There are so many different religions because of that fact. Christianity is not the same thing today it was when it began. Things were borrowed from other religions to help them convert people. I'm doubtful the Bible says the same things it did when it was first written. Keep to the Love and blessing and leave the intolerance alone. It does not affect you.
Have a Happy New Year too.
Good, I believe in the word of God also. Men didn't write the bible with their own knowledge. God is the author, and the scriptures were inspired by God as the men were writing. Will you please show me the words of who is preaching hate? Christianity to me is a wonderful relationship with Jesus.
evvy_09,thank you. I feel the same way when it comes to the bible. The decisions were left up to Constantine and his men to figure out what they wanted to put in the bible and what they wanted to keep out of it and bury.
It has been written and re-written so many times that it does make many doubtful. Just because we doubt, we may also be considered sinners or people who lack faith.
I believe in God, the God I believe in loves me just for being.
Yes, but considering that you don't feel the need to provide any studies or anything whatsoever other than you're own words, it would be prudent to note that there are a number of studies that would certainly show your claims are quite specious indeed.
"...male sexual assault has nothing to do with the sexual orientation of the attacker or the victim, just as a sexual assault does not make the victim survivor gay, bisexual or heterosexual. It is a violent crime that affects heterosexual men as much as gay men. The phrase "homosexual rape," for instance, which is often used by uninformed persons to designate male-male rape, camouflages the fact that the majority of the rapists are not generally homosexual
"Among the offenders studied, the gender of the victim did not appear to be of specific significance to half of the offenders. Instead, they appeared to be relatively indiscriminate with regard to their choice of a victim -- that is, their victims included both males and females, as well as both adults and children. The choice of a victim seemed to be more a matter of accessibility than of sexual orientation, gender or age.
(Groth & Burgess, 1980)"
Many people believe that the majority of male rape occurs in prison; however, there is existing research which shatters this myth. A study of incarcerated and non-incarcerated male rape victims in Tennessee concluded that the similarities between these two groups would suggest that the sexual assault of men may not be due to conditions unique to a prison and that all men are potential victims
(Lipscomb et al., 1992).
"Research indicates that the most common sites for male rape involving post-puberty victims are outdoors in remote areas and in automobiles (the latter usually involving hitchhikers). Boys in their early and mid-teens are more likely to be victimized than older males (studies indicate a median victim age of 17).
Beelzedad - I think you and I (and others) are quite aware that your bringing the facts to the table won't change the ball-game. I asked for the same and got nada. As always.
Some folks like to believe that homosexuality is a choice, and/or prefer to believe that it's caused rather than a natural occurrence.
That then makes it easier to 'evidence' that folks can be saved from sinning [in such a vile manner] by repenting and receiving the Lord into their lives. And etc.
I have another word for the above - and it isn't even close to the word delusion. I prefer bigotry
Would it "gross you out" to have sex with another woman? It would me, and that's exactly how "Pete" felt about having sex with a woman. He didn't want to be gay. He was never raped or sexually abused. Even when he was a small child, he was different than the other little boys. While they were out playing ball, he was in the kitchen with the girls and the women. He has a wonderful mother and father, a straight brother who's a Marine, and a straight sister. Pete had to have been born this way, so why would God hate him for the way he is?
I think we see God differently. I picture God as loving and understanding, with His arms wide open in a welcoming, accepting gesture. We're His children, right? If you have kids of your own, I hope you wouldn't hate one of them for being gay. There are gay Christians, too, you know.
Furthermore, scientists don't even fully understand sexual attraction among heterosexuals - much less among homosexuals. Have you ever been "turned on" by someone you didn't want to be attracted to? I have, and I'm convinced it involves chemicals like pheromones that we can't control.
Did you know that homosexuality has been observed among animals?
Sure, I've been "turned on" by someone I didn't want to be attracted to! That's no different from the temptation to perform gay activities, it's still a temptation.
I chose not to act upon the attraction I experienced.
Yes, God Loves everyone! But we are not animals. He gave us the ability to practice self-control and good common sense. Just because some people can't use self-control doesn't make them right, it just makes them human. But God Himself promises to help us with those tough temptations if we will let Him. And those who blatantly refuse to admit they need help and refuse to even try self-control are those who are in rebellion, which makes them wrong from the start.
Back to the supposedly uncontrollable attractions.....the Bible doesn't condemn someone for having attraction to someone; it only condemns (calls it sin) when a person refuses to use self-control and acts upon those feelings...
Do you believe that all sin is equal in the eyes of God? (except for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit)
My Methodist-minister pal says that God must turn His face from sin - so all sin is equal. You sin, Brenda, because you're human. If my friend is correct, your sins of lying, envy, etc. are no less severe than any other sins.
Just for the sake of argument, let's say homosexual acts are a sin. What if the homosexual loves God and Jesus? Will he still be damned to Hell?
I have another question for you: Which do you think is worse - a heterosexual who engages in sex with multiple partners on a regular basis, or a homosexual who's in a committed relationship?
I would have to use the teachings of Jesus to disagree with how you worded this... and would say that Matthew 5:27-29 states:
" 27“You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
29 If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell."
I would have to say that this "quote" from Jesus would say that it is a "sin" to be attracted to someone...especially if you are already married or betrothed to be married...
If you really listen, Jesus is telling us to exercise self-control in those passages.
One must remember that the whole Bible is the word of God/Jesus, not just individual passages which can be misinterpreted and mis-used.
James 1: 14-17 defines the progression from temptation to sin that leads to spiritual death, and the last verse confirms what I said about the word of God.
"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin; and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Do not err, my beloved brethren.
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."
I wasn't saying anything other than the way your comment was worded disagreed with the teachings of Jesus...You can use any scriptures that you like to ease your convictions...Doesn't matter to me...I know what the bible says and I completely understand it...I don't need to make up my own interpretations of what it says...I tend to listen more to what Jesus said over what his disciples thought he meant...Half of the time he had to explain his teachings to them in private anyways because even they didn't understand his parables.
Unless you have someone very close to you, a family member, son, daughter, close friend, etc., who has struggled with sexual identity, you can only assume. But once you have spent time with one of these people, get to know their heart and mind, you understand that there is no conditioning involved. It's genetics that you can't control.
Until you get to walk that rocky path with someone, it's exceptionally easy to believe that homosexual, transgendered and bisexual people are freaks who make bad choices. I DARE you to get to know people in these groups and find out for yourself. Further, I DARE you to watch this movie: http://www.forthebibletellsmeso.org/indexd.htm
@womanofcourage: your statement about most homosexuals being raped is the furthest thing from the truth. Rapes happen to every sector of society, not just homosexuals, and the numbers are no greater among homosexuals. In trying to be "compassionate" I see that you are merely insulting. It's best you find a good homo and befriend them and find out the truth, as I suggested to Brenda.
Daniel, I think you misunderstood me. I never stated that every person that has been molested or raped is now a homosexual. I was simply speaking about the many homosexuals that has spoken about how they were molested or raped as child. I am aware that some have not been raped before. It's interesting to see others have added words to the meaning of my response. I am compassionate. Thank you, but keep your suggestion. Have a Happy New year.
Again, you are continuing to spread falsifications without any evidence. You are in fact spreading lies again even after the evidence has been put squarely in front of you showing that it is a lie. Why do you continue to do that?
"What's revolting about a woman's body? Nothing."
Are you trying to tell us something, Brenda?
So does that mean women never want to have sex.with men cause they are icky?
Brenda, why do you insist on only discussing the sex, sex is only a small part of everyone's life? People are a lot more than their sexual preference.
Oh, and girls and boys were sexually molested long before gay right was ever mentioned, you can't blame everything on gay mea and women.
I think the love described between Jonathan and David was a spiritual love - not a physical lust.
I say what a man and woman does in the privacy of their own home is nobodies' business but their own. Unless it's something illegal, then I could give two cents to a rat's a**. Seriously, the way I look at it is that statistically there's two girls for every guy ratio on Earth, as it's been speculated by scientists. Therefore, for every gay guy out there, there's like two girls out there potentially for ME! Just kidding, as I doubt I'd probably get one of those girls, but it would increase my chances with them statistically if more guys were gay. lol. sorry, i don't mean to make light of a situation, but that's just me.
Besides, this kind of reminds me of how one guy I used to work with named charles (fake name to hide his identity), used to hit on young 18 to 19 yr old girls, and he was 50 yrs old by the way ladies and gents. He asked me once how I felt about him doing that, since everyone we worked with thought he was a sick deviant for chasing barely legal girls. I just told him hey, "I don't give a rat's a** what you do behind close doors, as it has nothing to do with me. Unless your chasing after underage girls and/or raping these women, then we're cool." Anyways, we both had a good laugh about it, and became close friends. unfortunately, he got fired though since his sales were low (we both worked in retail), but he was a good guy.
The point is unless someone is doing something illegal, then I say who cares? What a person does behind closed doors is nobodies' business but their own. period. to say otherwise is hypocritical.
What I object to is people airing their undies in my face. Back off, and I'm way more accepting. My own marriage is not dependent on a piece of paper. We should be ridding ourselves of that governmental interference in our lives, not encouraging others to embrace it.
LOL..WOW!!! Seriously who cares who is having sex with who...Are you having sex with someone of the same sex?? NO.. you feel that it is wrong...The ones doing don't have that hang-up...so how about we do this.. lets take away some of your rights...lets tell you who can love or who you can have sex with...I'll even be nice enough to allow you to have sex with someone of the opposite sex but you can only have sex with the person the bible says you can have sex with...Oh.. if you follow Saul/Paul, He teaches it is wrong for anyone who is clergy to be married or have a spouse...they are to be married to god only...having a wife or husband would take away from spiritual life with God. Last time I checked most of the "Christian" type live in the good old USA and we have certian freedoms..we are we so hell bent on preventing someone who has different sexual preferences than we do from enjoying the "fun" of being married...you know.. sharing the bills...putting up with a nagging wife/ good for nothing husband...complaining about the toothpaste in the sink...tax breaks...figuring out who's turn it is to clean up the dog poo in the back yard...Seriously...People have rights and who are we to take them or prevent them from having them...you wouldn't like it if we were still living back in the early 1900"s and women were not allowed to vote, get much of an education or various other "wrongs" imposed on women back in the day... how about the way blacks and other color minorities were treated and still treated to this day is some parts of this country...Fine bunch of "God-fearing" examples and christian folks you all claim to be...Bottom line...State matters and Church matters are in two different catagories and are seperate for a reason...so get off your damn "I am more rightous than thou" perch...learn to respect and love each other. People don't seem to have a problem with Divorce, Working on the Sabbath, Disobeying thier parents, Telling outright LIES!!!, Coveting thier neighbor, Neighbors wife, stealing...I think the only commandmant that seems to be keep is the "Thou shall not murder" and if you take Jesus's look at that one ( if you harbor ill will toward your brother(this includes more than your blood) then you have committed murder in your heart)then, they don't even keep that one...Let get real and call a spade a spade...you all don't want gay people getting married because that would put them on equal ground with all other "happily married" couples and of course you just can't have that... you can moan and groan all you want about morals and things along that line, but it just isn't true...if it was you would never leave the house because you can't go anywhere without seeing something "immoral"... Try hitting up the beach during the summer...LOL... If I touched a sore spot... Tough.. go and pray for a better understanding of the people that you live with on this planet and maybe you won't have as many sore spots for someone to tap on.
<Steps down off the soapbox>
Still don't like the undies in my face. Do I put on a show? No. Do my neighbors? No. Do I perform at a hetero sexual parade going through other people's hoods? No. Do any of my neighbors? No. Are some of my neighbors gay? Yes. Do they really care what I think? No. Do I really care that our philosophies on this matter differ? No. Damn! World peace is possible!
LMFAO! - DoubleScorpio, Muah.... Thank you. I could not have said it better myself.
To DoubleScorpion and all, regardless of the scripture in question we need to each realize that a male and a female were each created differently with the purpose of filling the earth with offspring and as God said "as numerous as the stars of the sky", or "as the sand on the seashore".
The above was God speaking to Abraham.
The matter concerning David and Jonathon I believe to be of one even beyond "brotherly love", to the earlier mentioned "spiritual love".
Paul speaks of marriage "between a man and a woman", he speaks of the "unmarried" remaining that way as to not split their devotion between their spouse and the Lord, but it is a suggestion only.
Paul also says this " Everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial" and Jesus says " Love one another as I have loved you"
I am saying these things out of love, not in anger and also as a matter of fact a man and man cannot have a child together anymore than a woman and a woman. If this is a choice to be homosexual, it is a choice that is physically flawed, but I understand how someone could care that much for another person mentally, or spiritually. I am a father, a husband and I have siblings,as well as a mother, of each of them I love to the point of suffering for them. I have a pastor, my shepherd, he as well I would suffer for, but none would I suffer for more so than He who decided long ago to suffer for all and to him I would most likely have a love greater than that of loving a woman. Do you thing that makes me gay? If gay means happy and it does, then the answer is yes. I am a Christain by choice, but I was made as a male by God in order to have dominion over all things of this earth and God made me a suitable helper woman. I'm sorry if this offends anyone, it is what is written in the Bible, the Koran and in the Hebrew Pentateuch.
When you hold a public wedding, when you hold hands in public, when you kiss in public you are putting on a "hetero sexual parade."
Indeed. Anytime you mention your girlfriend/boyfriend or husband/wife, you're parading your sexuality in front of everybody. Every time you show someone a picture of your kids (the fruits of your loins), you're flaunting your sexuality. Every time you make a list of celebrities you'd like to sleep with, you're flaunting your sexuality. Any time you wish you could meet a good girl/guy, you're flaunting your sexuality.
But since it's hetero-sexuality, that's okay.
It`s also about plain old common sense.Let all men turn gay and all women lesbian and in 2 generations we`ll be extinct.How about that?
Over The Hill
If we keep over populating the world, we all go extinct, for sure
Unless we begin to eat each other like cannibals! I need extra salt please.
Forget it Castlepaloma, its like I told habee, you will just get a headache trying to make sense of the nonsense...
I had to take two Aleve myself hun! LOL
Most people aren't attracted to the same sex. That's why homosexuals are such easy targets: there are so few of them.
Is it a "SIN" if a porcupine wants to marry a squirrel if they love each other?
I don't think that it is any of my business . Do You?
It ain't any of my business.
It ain't any of my business.
It ain't any of my business.
It ain't any of my business.
God don't want me to have to deal with it cause he hnown that I am unqualified to deal with it.
How about a horse and a donkey?
It ain't any of my business.
It ain't any of my business.
It ain't any of my business.
It ain't any of my business. Cause I am unqualified to deal with it.
The horse and donkey can produce a mule. Not sure what my point is here...
Same old same old.
Round and round.
Same spin, a few additional actors.
I want to warn the heterosexual Christians here that they are outnumbered and overwhelmed by the sheer brilliance and uninhibited bravery of the other side. If you are unable to marshall facts and arguments please be careful how you foray into this battlefield. And should you offer scientific evidence your source will be discredited.
You will be accused of hate speech, ignorance, and bigotry.
But you have my prayers and encouragement to sow beside all waters.
Strangely, some Christians will be like Lot in Sodom. And end up sitting with elders at the gates of liberal Sodomites of HubPages.
I have a question. Why are so many brilliant educated men choosing the homosexual lifestyle?
"I have a question. Why are so many brilliant educated men choosing the homosexual lifestyle?"
Probably coincidence. When you're dealing with a more or less random selection of roughly 10% of the population, homosexuals as a group are going to get some Oscar Wildes and W.H. Audens... but also some real boneheads.
glendacaba, Interesting post. So far, I have been falsely accused of lying, being judgemental. I know without a doubt I have not posted any hate speech. I will not be surprised if I have been reported for hate speech. Thank you for your prayers. Have a Happy New Year
Careful, careful. You have my unqualified support for standing on the Biblical ground.
But I'm afraid your initial claims of homosexuality linked to molestation should have been supported by research; otherwise you should have indexed the point as non-representative anecdotal evidence, and not a general rule. It is not too late. Go and check your sources. Otherwise apologise for a non-factual claim.
As i warned in my first post, Christians should not enter this battlefield unless they can argue with facts.
Hi glendoncoba, I appreciate your response. Again, I am stating from the majority of homosexuals which have spoken about what happened to them. Allow us to agree to disagree. I would be glad to appologise if it's not factual. God bless you!
And apparently you continue to lack the sight to see your own actions. Why is that? You make a broad based statement, but again do not attach it to anything credible.
What part are you not understanding? Just because YOU read or heard somewhere that many homosexuals admit to being molested when younger, does not actually make it a fact for "all" homosexuals.
Thus, your statement shouldn't have been said, because you are not applying factual/credible evidence to back up your claim.
Cagsil, What part of my response you are not understanding? I encourage you to read once again. My post never stated "all" homosexuals. I stated "many" or "most" homosexuals. It will help you to quit speed reading in order to view words correctly. I hope you are having a Happy New Year.
That's okay. It doesn't matter. The amount of ignorance in the statement that "most" or "many" is still inaccurate.
And, yet again, you've still failed to realize opening your mouth about it, still requires back up material.
So, with that said- Wake up to reality would ya?
Here's the thing.
You can claim "all - many - most" or whatever, but it will still be just a purposely contrived fabrication on the simple fact that the evidence does not support your claims. And, whether they are your claims or something you may have heard somewhere doesn't really matter.
The point is that all you are ever going to manage to achieve by following down that path is to build a solid foundation as a bold faced liar.
If instead, you wanted to clear the air and be honest about it, simply state that there is no evidence to support your claims and that your views are entirely driven by religious bigotry.
At the very least, I would consider you an honest person and would respect you dearly for it. I am entirely sincere.
There is a big difference between "many" and "most" - do you not understand that?
Many = a lot
Certainly many gays/lesbians -- and straights -- have been raped or molested
Most = more than 50% = more than half = a majority.
You said that most gays and lesbians have been raped and/or molested. Many others here and I are calling "BS" on that because there is absolutely no evidence to support such a claim by you or anyone else.
I hope you can understand this difference.
When we send our children out into the playground we will instrust them how to come back unharmed.
God isn't that much different in this respect.
When your child comes back from the playground with a broken arm cause they didn't listen to Ya , are you going to send them to hell?
I don't think so.
Jerami, I am somewhat puzzled by your replys because if you are a true born again Christian, you have the responsibility to stand against open sin.Jonah didn`t want to deal with it either and spent 3 days in the belly of a leviathan.
Wasn't ignoring this question. Just now saw it, sorry.
This is such a complicated issue.
I do believe in the creator and that Jesus was the Messiah foretold in the OT prophesy.
And I believe everything that he is said to have said in the four Gospels. First and foremost.
Those statements concerning his coming again and the way that these statements have been interpreted are a major concern for me.
I also believe those things that John recorded in the book of revelation.
These "things which must shortly come to pass
"for the time is at hand"
In 96 AD John received a vision of a false religion rising up out of the sea. And 230 years later the Roman Empire put together a new religion that basically took over the known world.
This doctrine is been in affect (having a great multitude of denominations) for almost 1650 years.
I question this doctrine right down to the bare roots while having full faith in the God of heaven and the Messiah dieing on the cross for our sin.
I have been diligently questioning my own understanding of scriptures for over a decade; and have found that most of what I was taught to be true was in fact unsubstantiated interpretations of scripture.
Let me reiterate that I have NOT been questioning the scriptures themselves, ... but my understanding OF Them.
I think that everyone should do the same.
As a Christian, I believe there will be a lot of things going on in this world that does not line up with the Bible. We live on planet earth and not heaven. We are in this world with many different types of people.
While we sit on our self-righteous chairs and judge others. God is watching to see if we we will display the love of God that will draw others to Christ.
I like to think about it like this ...
I imagine myself standing on a judjment platform.. Standing there asking for love and forgiveness , when he ask me ... how much hate and unforgiveness am I still carring in my pocket. And I wonder why he asks??
You do err when you equate Godly warnings and offers of forgiveness with hate and unforgiveness.
Jerami, if you keep progressively leaning left, you're gonna be practically horizontal before long! haha You won't have to be thrown overboard like Over The Hill said, you'll just fall right into the mouth of the whale! Oh Jonah, reluctant prophet that he was.....
What more Godly warnings than in the Bible, right?
Matthew 5: 31-32
Offer of forgiveness, also in the Bible, in 1 Corinthians 7:10-11:
And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
Nobody wants to hear what a prophet has to say.
Unless ya lived in Nineveh 2600 years ago.
And that even didn't last very long.
I just know that when I am standing there, waiting for him to say THY Good and faithful servant; ......
I don't want to hear : Why did you hate so much?
to hear him say that all of those things that it is written, don't do that! ...
He was talking to me and no other.
Or something like that.
So...I think I understand now....you're saying you yourself can't preach repentance without having hatred in your heart?
I can and do.
I have no hatred.
So, if you're saying that anyone who preaches repentance is doing it out of hatred, you're flat-out wrong.
And if it's the former, then....did you know that if you pray and ask God for Love for someone, He will give you Love for that person's soul?
P.S. Jerami, you mentioned Nineveh's ultimate fate. Do you think the Nineveh that turned away from God is the same city that was originally saved? I've pondered on that myself.
At any rate, Jonah did what God told him to do, finally. God can use anyone He wants to! I think it's just that He allows us the freedom to decide for ourselves these days, but at the same time, we also must accept the consequences. What would you rather do----do God's will even if it isn't easy, or wallow in fear of offending someone while their soul heads for hell?
I don't know.
The only thing that comes to mind right now is , He said,...
I give faith to those that I choose to give faith to.
I don't think that any of us can convert someone that God hasn't chosen to give faith to.
Yes, conversations such as this may make someone think?
But it wont be the conversation that does it. When it is time for that person to receive it, God will give it whether they hear this conversation or not.
I just believe there is so much more to it than either of us can even imagine.
What puzzles me is how people tried to live out, out dated rules from med evil times. My pastor brother protest gay marriage on the streets.
Yet, the world largest Christmas parade in Toronto is over sized and over powered by the Gay parade of today.
Where are the rules relating to gay though do ya know?
There are only three passages relating directly to homosexuality in the New Testament: Romans 1:26–27, 1 Corinthians 6:9–10, and 1 Timothy 1:8–11.
Corithians and Timothy both refer to "malakoi" and "arsenokoitai" - words often translated as "male prostitutes" and "sodomites" or "homosexual offenders." However, there's reason to think from studies of other contemporary Greek literature of the time that "arsenokoitai" actually means something more like "pimp."
Romans refers to homosexual acts among idolators and treats it more as a punishment for the sin of idolatry than a sin by itself.
Jesus Himself didn't say a word about homosexuality, though He was pretty harsh on divorce.
The most blatant Biblical prohibition against homosexuality is in Leviticus, but Leviticus also bans people from eating pork, shellfish, or meat and dairy in combination, wearing "clothing of mixed threads," and many other things that nearly all modern Christians claim to ignore on the grounds of "continuing revelation" without ever explaining why a vague reference to God making impure foods pure means that it's okay to eat bacon cheeseburgers but some vague reference to prostitutes, pimps, and idolators mean that homosexuality is still an abomination.
Kerry, interesting point. Does that mean I'm doomed to Hell? I admit that I eat shrimp, oysters, and crab, and I enjoy meat and cheese with my spaghetti sauce. And I love barbecued pork ribs! Oh, I think some of my shirts are made from a poly-cotton blend, too. Worst of all, my first husband and I divorced, and I got remarried 22 years ago.
Even with all these abominations, I fully believe in God and Christ, and I fully believe I'm not going to Hell. I try to be a good person, and I believe in John 3:16 - one of my favorite Bible verses.
I'm not really qualified to judge, being a heretic and all, but according to this guy, you're "destined for punishment," you rebeller you.
I think I was already punished - in my first marriage! lol
I read some of the linked article. I think I'll stick with John 3:16.
Yeah, as far as I'm concerned, Jesus Himself made it very clear what was really important in Matthew 22:36-40 and everything else is just window dressing.
(ETA: The following is in no way directed at you, by the way, habee. You have been eminently reasonable throughout this thread and many others on similar issues.)
I just find it immensely hypocritical when people claim that homosexuality is such a horrible sin in the eyes of God. Maybe it is, but it's treated as an equal sin to any number of things that most modern Christians do all the time, and frankly, as the link I posted above proves, the jury is still out on whether "continuing revelation" really made those other things okay or not, just as the jury is still out on issues like "sodomite" vs. "pimp" for the translation of "arsenokoitai." No Christian can really truthfully claim that we know God's wishes on either homosexuality or bacon cheeseburgers, so maybe we should all just mind our own business, yeah?
Good point, as always, Kerry.
If homosexuality is a sin, then so is the sin of being born with male and female parts and not really knowing if you're guy or gal. And if you don't believe that happens, then you've lived in a bubble of ignorance, and God or someone, help you.
Assuming that neither people like Woman of Courage nor I know any "homos" as you put it, and assuming that we know nothing of this.
I've no idea how much Woman of Courage knows, but in my case (and I bet hers as well) you are wrong. That could be because some of the people I know choose to (as I've said before) actually keep their private lives private instead of flaunting their temptations everywhere and trying to make all of America sanction them into law.
And for whoever spoke of statistics, the same concept applies---it's common sense to realize that many gays who were raped or seduced or otherwise molested also keep that fact private.
edit----this post was more in reply to your previous post, Daniel, where you dared me to watch a movie.
Again, don't assume. I've pretty much seen it all and even done some of it (not gay activity, but sin formerly in my life), so I'm not naive. I don't need to watch a movie, nor read another liberal book, nor listen to stuff I've heard over and over before.
And Woman of Courage is not insulting; matter of fact, she's one of the more compassionate around here! If someone hears the Biblical Truth and gets offended, that's because they're so fearful of facing the Truth. The word of God is offensive only to those who have guilt in them.
It's odd then, to me, that you make such generalizations that sound like you live in a bubble, Brenda. So if I'm wrong, I apologize. But I still can't understand, even with the supposed experience you have, that you cannot see that so much about gender identity issues is not a choice, but actually a genetic part of that person.
I've made my points and so now I'm leaving it alone.
Brenda, Well-written post. You are definitely right. I am not naive, and I was not just born yesterday. Thank you Brenda for the wonderful compliment. I have no room for hate in my heart. As you can see, I have been blasted also for no apparent reason. All is well. Have a Happy New Year Brenda.
I wanted to mention, too, that this thread is not directed at anyone other than those that are warning everyone else that they're going to hell. My point is if you insist you're supposed to do so because the Bible tells you to, then you might as well as be consistent and do everything the Bible tells you to do. To cherry-pick the sins you're going to obsess about, those that you're not "guilty" of yourself, suggests your piety is a matter of convenience.
That said, either through Jewish or Christian definitions, no Christian believer is going to hell (Jews don't believe in hell, and Christians believe that faith alone is the deciding factor)...although try to convince some of the zealots out there of this.
I agree, LL. That's the point I was trying to make earlier in this debate.
That's not true that Christians believe faith alone is the deciding factor in the finality of it. Repentance is required in order to receive forgiveness.
Salvation is a thing that's not achieved fully until we're taking our last breath. Paul talks about attaining, and he meant attaining to the joy of getting to go to heaven to be with Jesus. We have free will up until we die, and can choose to turn from Him. Paul tells us to keep striving for the mark, and he meant the mark of that awesome Salvation!
I see...and can you repent by continuing to commit the same sin?
But according to that famous verse in John, all we have to do is to believe. And what about Ephesians 1:13? And Revelation 3:5?
Initially, that IS all we have to do. And if we really believe that Jesus died for us, we WILL be humbled to repent and receive forgiveness.
The Ephesians verse...When we are "saved" we receive God's promise to never leave us nor forsake us; we can be confident that He will always protect and comfort us as long as we continue to follow Him; but it doesn't mean we're "sealed" no matter what we do; it just means He's a promise-keeper. We retain free will and can choose to rebel and break away from His protection.
Revelation 3: 5 confirms that, actually. It says those who overcome will be clothed in white, etc.. What is "overcoming" except persevering, striving on for ultimate entry into heaven?
"I wanted to mention, too, that this thread is not directed at anyone other than those that are warning everyone else that they're going to hell."
Y'know, if all the zealots did was warn people about going to Hell, that'd be fine with me. The problem is that they're not merely warning us about consequences in the afterlife if we don't do as they say. They're trying to force us to do as they say by making sure it's illegal to disobey them. Right now, they're just trying to keep the gays in their place, but what's to say they won't try to pass a law about stoning adulterers?
Warn about the afterlife all you like. Don't try to infringe on others' rights in this life, though.
Agreed. If this were in the Politics section, I frankly wouldn't care about people's religious beliefs on the matter. After civil marriage is extended to gays and lesbians (and this final step in the "gay agenda" is over), I won't care one whit about their pronouncements against homosexuality or about the "sanctity of marriage" that they have a particularly convenient definition for.
But in the Religion section, I can't help but point out how hypocritical they are, and remind them that if they're capable of applying Biblical standards consistently, then their own doctrine says they'll be the first to start roasting in that lake of fire they like to romanticize.
But you make a good point: these absurd, unfair and cruel beliefs are the reason we still have a legal system that enshrines inequality. And this is why, in the political arena, their views need to be constantly challenged with both reason and heart.
habee, I was punished as you were in my first marriage too! We need to give up the pork and shellfish!...
Even those Levitical commandments are increasingly being interpreted another way, due to their understanding within their context (chapters forbidding all sorts of Canaanite pagan practices among followers of Molech).
The term used in the Torah in the original Hebrew which is adapted as arsenokoitai in the NT Greek is "kadesh" which is the male form of the female word "kedesha" which means prostitute (specifically with religious connotations, not a streetwalker). There was no Hebrew word for homosexual - homosexuality was a concept that ancient Hebrews either didn't understand or did not think was bad enough to write a commandment against.
However, male temple prostitution was a common pagan religion practice at the time, and all forms of idolatrous practices were explicitly forbidden to the Hebrews in the Torah.
Yeah, I think it's pretty telling that Jews are overwhelmingly pro-gay rights. IMHO, it's sad that a religion basically founded on the basis of love is having to play catch-up on this issue.
Yes, that Jews tend to lead rather than follow on social progress issues is what drew me to the religion.
As for the Christianity-is-love part: there are Christians who truly focus on that, and others that really get into the hellfire-and-brimstone part. Not hard to argue that the latter is missing the point.
Wow thanks. Makes you wonder whether or not it was subject to the writers own preferences. mmm
Rules for gays, be careful of HIV, that's a simply rule. The rest they know what is right or what is wrong also.
I am wondering why all the passages pointed to so far on this thread all point to Husband and Wife? Where are the passages that advocate being gay is not acceptable?
We all generally know what is right and wrong. Gays are just fruitful in a different and in some way a better way, trying to change them, would do more damage than good. For most part gays have a higher energy than criminals do, and they won’t ever go away neither, must be all parts of nature.
By far, more of the energy vampires are the greedy rich.
Homosexuality in animals has been linked to mercury pollution. Do we need further comments? Get real, people. We consume more and more of manmade garbage as a real food substitute. What do you expect? If we do not want to elliminate human race easily and naturally may be we should think what we put into our mouths every day and do not trust big food corporations too much.
There are some interesting studies suggesting that homosexuality in humans may have something to do with the types and levels of hormones we're exposed to in the womb, and if that's the case than some of the endocrine-disrupting chemicals out there now might certainly be playing a role.
But homosexuality has been too widespread and too consistent across human history and cultures for that to be the only cause. If so, you'd expect higher concentrations of homosexuals to be born in areas with certain types of pollution, for example, and to the best of my knowledge, we're not seeing that. From what I've heard, the percentage has remained pretty much consistent in every society we have reliable records for, both modern and historical.
I am sure we cannot have reliable historical records, as historically that thing was hushed, condemned, eliminated, presented as nonexistent, as a perverted sickness. And it grows in animal kingdom, so why not in human society too? Well, judging by Gay-parade in Toronto every year.... numbers are growing.
What to expect next? We manage to pollute lakes and oceans and we are still eating that fish. We had Chernobyl, but we still import a lot of produce from Ukraine and sell it everywhere in Canada. It might be radioactive for all I know. Next time I might go to the doctor and he would say I have cancer? Who would be able to trace that??? We are still babies in our attitude towards our food consumption. And we have no means to control a lot of things.That's the fact.
Numbers are growing at pride parades because more of those who are gay are comfortable with who they are and are coming out, and Toronto tends to be a mecca for gay Canadians because of its large gay community.
Also, if Toronto Pride is anything like San Francisco Pride, a large number, if not a majority, of attendees are straight, and just there to enjoy the festivities. (Just like not all the people who participate in a St Patrick's Day parade are Irish...)
Homosexuality in animals has been linked to mercury pollution.
I wonder if they have linked Christain science as a mental illness to that find also.
It's not a mental illness, just mass hypnosis...
Gay is considered a mental illness in 76 countries and as a crime. I wonder where they got their studies from.
To smoke a joint in Canada is still a minor crime; we have to make sure it's a guy at the end of the joint, now.
Times are a changin
Evolution of course or the animal kingdom as a comparison. Just teasing.
Homosexuality is in fact illegal in many countries, without the injection of theology. So much for that. In addition, science is claiming a chemical imbalance, set off by an overload of certain hormones in the body. But, in the last x-thousand years, it seems not much has really changed regarding the sexual practice. And yes, it is a sexual practice more than anything else. Which ( from what I have studied and am researching, is a spiritual deficiency more so than a probable immune deficiency...)
But the moral issue is of great concern, whether or not one dismisses theological doctrines. In fact there are MANY religious doctrines that were founded on homosexuality and its practices. Much of which is seen today in bdsm practices --strongly noted in modern Europe, particularly Spain). Forced submission, feminization/sterilization of males, domination by females, gender slavery, gender alteration (pre-medical opportunity was bondage of sexual parts w/ public expression of one's counter gender) gender genocide (see Third Reich or possibly West Virginia in present America), etc. Such practices included mass public unions, various musical proclamations, clothing wears, chants, beverages, foods, effigy, etc. to display that belief in the particular idea.
It was then elaborated by massive pagan ritualism forming various cultures, social orders and --believe it or not-- laws. These practices were then deemed socially acceptable, caused the building of many powerful societies --the two largest being India and Macedonia, plus the formation of a variety of deities (I say deities meaning sacred to the individual either by logic or emotion deemed gods) like Nature, Evolution --yes, lest we forget science promoted and in many ways fashioned/stabilized the social "value" of such practices **edit: today it is called the porn, hollywood, film industry which is an invention of science).
In last few hundred years theology had openly turned away from such practices, even though secretly those practices were abounding. But now, logic (law, science) are over shadowing theology, so it is once again accepting these practices to a large degree.
The historical reference to such a lifestyle proves fatal each time as society develops massive apathy and becomes vulnerable to influence. It does not necessarily mean implosion --although some have done that, but it does mean social order is undefined and thus susceptible to dominant powers, ideas that could otherwise be harmful. The historical result of the Aquarius Generation is today's now logical acceptance of a social ideology. It is now being lead by science and accepted by or in some cases as a religion.
So - god hates gays then? OK..............
Waiting on your list of countries in which homosexuality is illegal which do not have strong religious roots. Seeing as you religionists do like to pull "facts" like this out of your behinds.
50 or so should so it.
No, the gods hate just the sex part??
Hello Marcus, Happy New Year to you.
Theology is irrelevant. Because theology is now defined --openly-- as logic & sensation. No country on the planet is without effect of said practices. Seems the proverbial law & prophets have reunited --and it feels so good???
PS, I didn't post it was 76 countries, so ask the other guy to list them. My list would be every country and no country at the same time. Hence the conflict of societies.
Happy New Year to you also. No - you have redefined it to suit Y'aachoo (not sure of the spelling) logic has nothing to do with sensation - other than to make a semantic argument that religion and scientific observations are the same, but - I can do it in only 12 days.
--argumentative, move to strike??
historically, it is evident w/out the bible, Torah or Vedic archives.
theologically, it is muddled.
scientifically, it is a cash cow.
socially, it is just another humanistic approach to a flawed self absolution.
If you can refute it, by those four points, please --by all means-- my friend, the floor is yours.
HE made holes and pegs to fit in them. Some holes are for things to come out of. Why everybody wanna change the blueprints is beyond me, but it's their house. Who are we to judge, we're not supposed to. It seems to be between Him and them. I don't wave their flag, nor should anyone force them to wave any other than the one they wave. Sanctifying it? If the state wishes to. Great.
I agree, which is why --being a sexual practice-- everyone should keep it to themselves, instead of parading down 5th avenue dressed in plastic wrap, waving rainbow flags or on the courthouse steps smooching, while I am trying to have a stale --overpriced-- cup of coffee at Starbucks.
As my sexuality is a private matter, theirs ought to be.
This is my only gripe with the issue, else, many of my close friends and their present or ex wives have alternate sexual lifestyles. We are still all friends until the subject of sex arises. What I do find funny here on HP is that this particular discussion was placed in the theological arena, yet again.
Then I hope you never get married in public, or hold hands, or kiss in public.
Actually, I do not.
I respect my wife and society by keeping sexual affection limited to my home. I feel it is a practice ALL members of society should adhere to.
As for marriage, that is an entirely different issue. Although in the States the lines between sexuality and civil law have again been blurred. Public marriage is to serve its purpose: to publically show two persons have been united for life --not until Judge judy pays them $250 a piece to divorce -even without the "you may kiss the bride". A civil union serves a social purpose for health, taxation, insurance, inheritance, reproduction, etc. And while I am not opposed to civil unions ( am still a Northern Californian at heart) by same sex persons, hardly see the social value, necessity or relevance of it. Proliferating sexual ideologies as social necessities can only lead to discord. A good example is the legal "value" placed on Hustler, which launched a massive social sexual dysfunction that has, in many ways, completely sterilized a global populations mentality of privacy, self worth and more. This simple civil thing is now leading a complete society of people in business, education, clothing, food and more.
But, as Marcus failed to read in my posts, theology (of both science/law & religion) is now so engulfed --globally-- in sexuality that there is no distinction. The historically repetitive significance is undeniable.
Something I have been writing recently about seems to line up well with it: human sexuality is directly related to its spirit and from which these alternates in human behavior have and are occurring. The difference: in this historical period, it is a global application.
"I respect my wife "
Aha, caught you! You just flaunted your heterosexuality: you mentioned your wife. Stop shoving your heterosexuality in our faces, and then we can talk about what gay folks should be allowed to do.
Hey Jeff, if it matters, you're either confused or clueless.
I am not sure which you are presently, but I am sure it will work itself out, but before it does, it might be helpful if you would reply to the proper person you intend on speaking with.
Now, just in case, you didn't by accident, and intended to talk to Uninvited Writer? UW is a female. Her wife? Would explain a lot now wouldn't it?
I hope I cleared it up.
Cags, I'm neither confused nor clueless.
I was quoting, and responding to, TwentyOneDays, which you'd know if you'd read the whole thread.
For some reason, don't know why, the [reply] buttons in this thread below UW's last post have gone away. The latest post I can reply to is UW's, which is why I didn't hit the reply button under your post; it's not there for me. Maybe it's because I'm using Firefox? Or because I'm using a mac? Dunno.
But my point, which stands, is that TwentyOneDays talked about his wife, and therefore is flaunting his sexuality.
Jeff, you don't need to make statements that supposedly support your statement. As for me following the thread and would know who you were replying to, while you responded to someone else's post.
I'm not sure either at this point.
But, that's my point- there was NO WAY to differentiate between who you were actually talking to, because your post came as a response to Uninvited Writer. Therefore, there was no way to realize you were talking to TwentyOneDays and not Uninvited Writer. But, thank you for clearing it up.
It's the claim from ILGA, check them out.
ILGA: About ILGA - The only worldwide federation campaigning for ...
ILGA's aim is to work for the equality of lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans and
Excellent point. The theory doesn't seem to hold up historically, or in present conditions.
ANDROIDS. The japanese are working furiously! The perfect mate. I can see the headlines now...can't you? Everybody goes to heaven, no waiting in line. Fork up the cash, no questions asked. Square pegs no problem, just holes? Done! No fuss, no muss. No more broken hearts or promises, no more lonely nights. Better than blowups. WAY. Stepford dreams come true!
Run from Nature, run!
“The evolution of the brain not only overshot the needs of prehistoric man, it is the only example of evolution providing a species with an organ which it does not know how to use”
Your head, dude!
Do you think with your appendix?
Well, some people do, I know.
We also have no use for it. It's purpose has been left in our distant past, yet, evolution has decided we still need it. I know what you meant, obviously you didn't know what I meant. Our capacity to learn has kept very good pace with our development. It is our understanding of how long we've been developing which is poorly understood. Those cavemen you speak of have just been given a new home way deeper in our past. Current discoveries just proved that we don't know diddly. Finally, to expect a species that knows so little about it's own neighborhood to have the full knowledge of how it all began, is a false path. We, that is, mankind, have no clue where we are, how we got here, when it happened, and wether or not our being here was accidental or intended. The answers are right in front of us and have been all the time.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/17/healt … 7appe.html
"Homosexuality in animals has been linked to mercury pollution. Do we need further comments?"
Not really, but some evidence in support of that statement might be nice.
I don't actually know a couple called "Adam and Steve". But then, I don't know a couple called "Adam and Eve" either, as it happens.
The last wedding I went to was a hetrosexual one. Mark and Rebecca. So was the one before that - James and Victoria. The third wedding ago was gay, Edward and Luke.
I don't see any real difference. Other people's sex lives are their own business.
Aren't the stats that 1 in 4 of all children have been molested? 25% of the population is not gay and not all those molested are now gay.
Would most of them be gay?, just kidding.
the statistics from days gone by used to be that 1 in 3 girls were molested by a friend of the family, neighbor or even a family member, and 1 in 5 boys.
No, that does not turn people Gay. though this does explain a reason for lot of people in the world behaving in ways that they other wise would not have.
The gay men that I do know of do have a sex drive a little more so than straight men do. I would bet that gay men would be (per capita) less likely to molest children than a straight man would.
There has been 100,000 case reported of clergymen molesting children in the USA. Where there is one case reported, there are 9 cases not reported. (One million total)
I think perversion action are caused by the great suppression on sex, as sex is as natural as eating and sleeping, just not nearly as often.
Jeff Berndt wrote...
"It is not judging to say killing is wrong"
Yes, it is. It's a judgment. I happen to generally agree with that judgment, since when you kill someone, you're usually doing it against their will. However, to my mind, there can be mitigating factors, like self-defense and the defense of others, that make killing less bad. That also is a judgment.
You actually made a good point. Judging is something that we can not stop doing if we wanted to.
We judge an apple pie as to whether it is the best apple pie that we have ever eaten, or if it is the worst.
So it appears that if we are born the way that we are.
If a person is born Gay, ? , that is something that these few have no choice , likewise to judge is something that no one has any choice but to do. ???
Judging is something that we were ALL born with the inability to stop doing?
All that any of us can do is to curb our instincts, to restrain ourselves from doing those things that make our life unpleasant for ourselves and others, and in doing so, we have to judge what is appropriate and what is not! To ourselves ??
This just keeps going around and around.
We then HAVE to (we think) judge the judgments of ourselves and everyone we come in contact with. ??
We were born with this weakness; I just judged again (38*#<) I just judged this as a weakness.
I wish I could stop it but I can't. LOL , LOL
Sin is a religious term. Applies only to religious examples. It's actually irrelevant with regards to life or living life. According to the bible and all other religious scripture known to man, thoughts can be sinful. And any idiot can figure out that thoughts, for which, are unexpressed, can never be sinful. Therefore, the supposed teachings of religion to it's followers, is nothing more than a method of control.
thoughts are not sin, it is acting upon some of the thoughts that people have,
that is where sin begins
if some one does not know a truck is coming around the corner that does not mean it is not there, sin is sin even if some do not realize it for what it is
Isn't it even worse when a believer ignores his own sins and focuses on the sins of others? He should know better, but seems to want to sidestep the rules he professes to follow.
Matthew 7:5 in case you were wondering where I got that crazy idea.
I agree if a Christian can not look for his own imperfections, he should never look at others,
but we should be able to help each other to become better Christians
what ever the world does is their business, but there should be no laws upholding SIN
Do we have laws upholding divorce?
Is divorce a sin?
Should divorce be banned?
there are laws that differ from what the bible says, they should not be that way, I am against any law that goes against the Bible, no matter what the law is about. It should not be, divorce is not a sin if it is for fornication
Somehow I have a hard time imagining you or anyone else of your particular religious persuasion making as concerted an effort condemning divorce as you do anything related to homosexuality. That's because you don't.
When can we expect a major effort by evangelical, Catholic and Mormon churches to pass a measure amending the Constitution to ban remarriage, since that is not allowed even in the case of adultery?
Never. Because these churches practice hypocrisy and a particularly convenient type of piety.
it is not wrong to remarry if you divorced your wife or husband because of adultery
According to the Christian Bible, it is. In case of adultery, the options are to remain single or to return to the marriage.
1 Corinthians 7:10-11:
And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband divorce his wife.
So, so, so odd that you're unfamiliar with this, you know, being an observant Christian that doesn't want SIN enshrined into law.
Would now be a good time to point out Matthew 7:5 again?
Not according to the Bible, it's not. Thinking about committing adultery's nearly as bad as doing it, apparently.
You must be young because homosexuality was only decriminalized in the late 1960s in the US.
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