Would a loving parent not accept all of his/her/it's children?
First, where does it say that God only cares for Christians?
Second, it is common knowledge that Jews, Christians and Muslims all believe in God, or what many would describe as "the same god."
Thus, it cannot be said that God only cares for Christians.
I keep hearing that none other come before the father, except for through the son. Why is that so important to believe?
That is the word of a particular religious sect -- not The Word of God.
In the OT we have strong indications that God cared for his people whom he brought out of egypt and then into the promised land. In the NT we see that Jesus says:
John 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. (the other fold are the gentiles)
God has always had ONE way, whether it be sacrifice of animals and special festival days and holy days, sabbath or whether it be the death of his body, jesus, God has always said "to those who do MY will i will love and bless them and to the ungodly i will burn them like chaff".
If there is no set path then all Gods work throughout time in futile.
It is said that any lawyer who defends himself, has a fool for a client. One wants to have the very best defence in court, be it on earth or in Heaven.
@dave then jesus would be last person to hire....he could not defend himself and needed father to rise him again....he is only weak link in all god/god man/messiahs/peigambar...only one who needed support to bail himself out.....guess muhammad was better off...
Jesus Christ is LORD.
That is LORD of all.
I have a commandment to tell all He will be returning soon.
His mercy and grace is for those who accept His authority, love, and gift of freedom from sin.
As Christ Jesus is mocked by you, so shall His servant even I, v7..
The servant is not above His Lord.
The time is at hand pisean, repent and believe the Gospel for your own sake.
Jesus Christ lives, and He loves you and is holding out a helping hand. Don't reject Him and come to regret your choice when the King of kings appears in the sky.
God bless you pisean. God loves you.
Because jesus represents kundalini energy.your spine is the narrow gate.
feenix,do you believe that christians, jews, muslims, and hebrews all have the same Heavenly Father?
They all believe the other to be confused and actually worshipping a false idea of that same God, to different degrees. You're logic, while sound, brought you to a very faulty conclusion, due to a faulty premise, though. Christianity does not claim that God only loves Christians. This can simply be implied. But they believe He loves all, based on what they define love to be. Personally I had a taste of that love, and I don't consider it real, but that's another story.
God only loves the Christians: that's just something that some people are taught to believe.
True he loves all but that doesn't mean he won't eliminate those who ignore him or follow ungodly ways.
The way that God loves is that he gave his only son that WHOsoever should believe in Him (not some other him) would have eternal life. His love will enable him to forgive but his love must also keep him true to himself. If there is no purpose to living a clean life unto God then what is the point of it all? God himself has deceived us throughout all of time.
A parent who loves must also discipline. A judge must put people in jail.
In reality, parents don't discipline their children by discarding them or eliminating them or sending them to die or acting like judges who put them in jails. Of course, if that's the lessons Christians learn on how to treat their children, then that would make them pretty lousy, selfish and unloving parents.
What if the child discards or eliminates the parent .. choosing it's own path that essentially leads to judgement,death or jail?
Or burning them for an indefinite period of time .
brother john, do you honestly believe our Father has deceived us inany way?
John 3:16 - For God so loved the WORLD...He gives common grace to all - life, rain, food, etc.
God loves everyone. How can anyone question that fact since He sent Jesus to die for us all?
I think you're trying to replace "loves" with "accepts". They aren't the same thing in this instance.
And all people aren't God's children. Only those who receive Jesus Christ as their Savior are. But anyone can have that; it's their choice.
There it is again... Only those who accept Jesus as their savior. I can't see that as being true... If I ever accept anyone as my savior, it'll be the person that actually saves my life and not in the proverbial sense.
As Paul said, I perceive you're altogether too superstitious!
And surely you're seeing the glass half empty instead of half full.
Meaning you're thinking so negatively! Why not focus on the good news instead of the bad rumors? Who is it but Satan who would try to distract people from the truth?! That's why he does try to get people to focus on the bad stuff. He did it in the Garden and he tried it with Jesus in the wilderness and he tries still today.
Imaginary faries and demons are not responsible for the wills or wiles of man.
"Any part of the world, not just America. Witch burnings, stonings and torture are still practiced in some countries, such as Africa and parts of south America. While they are isolated incidents, they still occur. Religious folks can definitely be dangerous, especially when in packs."
The first and most obvious draback to your response is the assumption that only religious people are dangerous, especially in packs. To say that nonreligious people aren't liable to the same problems is simply not true. If I'm wrong, then prove it.
Let's put it this way, look at any playground. The premise may religion, or sexual orientation, or skin color, or national origin, but I guarantee you that any given playground has a pack of kids who are being mean to somebody.
Now, that's not to say that nothing bad ever happens in the name of religion. Of course it does. And of course it has. I have studied a lot of this stuff and it makes me sad and angry. It shouldn't happen and if I could prevent it I would. But Jesus did not tell His followers to act like that. He certainly did not.
I didn't say non-religious folks weren't dangerous, they were never included in the thread.
The state of the world, is as it will be and almost always has been. The war for realistate will never be won and the end will always be right around the corner. There will always be a hero and we will always need saving.
Sorry. I guess the fact that religious folks tend to get singled out here meant that I wasn't paying proper attention. Sorry.
Well said again Chris, I think the diversity in North America and to some extent Europe keeps society in check. Look for example at Iran, a religious state that needs some diversity to separate the pack.
I find it funny that people are constantly referring to Jesus and his being "tempted" by Satan.
Why was Jesus "born of a virgin?" Because to have been fully of human blood would've made him unable to be a holy sacrifice, right?
Is one who is considered God able to sin?
If He is not, why does it matter if he is tempted? If the virgin birth was to keep him from having the sin nature, temptations would not cause him to sin, because he CANNOT sin...
Thusly, his "trials" in the wilderness are irrelevant...
The experiences was very valid. One can not look at what is perceived as a characteristic of God only. Although, Jesus could not sin, but we all needed to witness such as being true. The lesson that we learn from Jesus being tempted validates God's Holy Spirit to us for our salvation.
"Although, Jesus could not sin, but we all needed to witness such as being true."
So, we need to know that it's possible for beings with a sin nature to be like a being without the sin nature? Does that make sense to you? I know it's often used across the board in Christian circles as why "God knows how we feel," and "If Jesus could do it, we can [because of the 'holy Spirit']," etc, etc, but there's a fundamental problem the logic behind this statement...
Jesus' ability to "resist" temptation had nothing to do with the "Holy Spirit," because even before his "baptism," again, if he was born of a virgin, then he was born without a sin nature. He was gonna come out on top at the end of the day... One cannot sin that is from the beginning unable to sin.
And this whole "perfection with the Holy Spirit" stuff causes a lot of people to be extremely arrogant and know-it-alls while believing themselves humble...
You are fallaciously denying the Savior part of Jesus. We repent and accept Jesus as the controller of our life; thereby, Jesus does it every time for each individual. God has ordained this to be.
Those who receive God's Holy Spirit does have a perfect message for all to hear. I agree that they should be humble as a servant of man, and not condescending to anyone.
Ok...? This conversation is going nowhere... Your grammar confuses me slightly, and you're being vague.
"You are fallaciously denying the Savior part of Jesus. We repent and accept Jesus as the controller of our life; thereby, Jesus does it every time for each individual."
Elaborate, please, without all of the jargon. Also, I deny all sides of Jesus, as I'm not a Christian.
God has elaborated; I have elaborated. What in the world do you needS?
Wilmeirs, you need to stop quoting scripture and use logic. Don't tell me or anyone else what God thinks or wants, because you or anyone on earth has no idea what he thinks or wants. You said God never changes. How do you know that? You don't know anything about God besides what comes from a bible. The bible condones Murder, Rape and Slavery, you can look at one of my hubs on the subject if you like. I expect you to comment on that directly with your blah blah blah.
You are totally dead to the things of God; therefore, what you say means absolutely nothing to me except you need an awakening. You talk nursery; I talk eternal life. Sorry pal.
The Bible condones Murder, Rape and Slavery....
Let's talk. Elaborate on where the Bible actually does this. Seriously, because I think you'd be surprised.
See http://rad-man.hubpages.com/hub/Do-we-g … -the-Bible
I had to delete the section on rape because they wouldn't allow me turn ads on.
I think you need to speak plain English, if you even can, instead of using all of the Christian/spiritual jargon that you keep using... You should be able to answer questions that make sense to any hearer, but you're just too holy and special to speak the vernacular of the common folk... I think it's something that you hide behind, dude. Sorry.
I refuse to cater to your ignorance. I am in no way compelled to nurse your inadequacies. Sorry.
I think you missed what I actually said.
Just because the "Christian God" makes sense to me doesn't mean that everything makes sense to me. I don't understand a lot of what happens and why He allows things.
Obviously I don't know what your experience when you beleived you were a Christian was nor what changed it. Some people say they started thinking critically, but then they only ever seem to think critically in ways that seem to disprove the Bible. But I don't know your experience any better than you know mine, and my failure to ask you may or may not be better than your dismissal of my statement.
There are a lot of things I would change if I could. But I can't change whether there is a God. And I'm not sure what you mean by that He "makes sense to me," because frankly I think that's a reduction of the idea of god, and not fitting for who He is.
Firstly, why are you responding to what I said to Wilmiers? Wilmiers is a different batch altogether...
"And I'm not sure what you mean by that He "makes sense to me," because frankly I think that's a reduction of the idea of god, and not fitting for who He is."
Your Bible restricts God. You may call Him infinite, and omnipotent, but even He has "restrictions." (He either can't keep people like that little girl from harm, or He chooses not to for His own "secret" plans, but He is restricted by His ego, and His very "nature.")
You believe that what you've found in the Bible makes sense, and so that is how you see God. Anyone with a different idea of God is considered to be wrong, correct? Your Bible gives "God" restrictions. And those restrictions/attributes/and the like make sense to you.
"Just because the "Christian God" makes sense to me doesn't mean that everything makes sense to me. I don't understand a lot of what happens and why He allows things."
That's probably one of the most humble answers I've seen. But something as simple as a supposedly loving God allowing some of the things He allows is ridiculous to me, when, if He is all powerful, He could change the very fabric of reality... but He doesn't, because He either doesn't want to, or He can't.
"Some people say they started thinking critically, but then they only ever seem to think critically in ways that seem to disprove the Bible."
I've always thought critically. The process itself of critical thinking isn't what changed. At least not for me. It was more what I wasn't allowing myself to think, because such thoughts were labeled as being from "the Devil." That is not all that I do. But I am simply trying to get people to think. To step outside of the box that they were either placed in or placed themselves in who are actually good people, but becoming so indoctrinated in an ancient patriarchal religion that they start having limited and often prejudiced view points of people, situations, and the like, as if the world is black and white and there is no grey area.
If you want to believe in God, if that gives you strength, cool.
But when you start telling people that eternal damnation awaits them when they refuse to accept a God who supposedly loves them, that's where the issues begin. And that's when we will step in, the challengers, the debaters, the former-believers, etc...
I'm responding to what you said to Wilmiers because what you specifically said to me doesn't have a response button, so I needed to find somewhere else to put it. Threads get a little difficult after a while...
“"And I'm not sure what you mean by that He "makes sense to me," because frankly I think that's a reduction of the idea of god, and not fitting for who He is."
Your Bible restricts God. You may call Him infinite, and omnipotent, but even He has "restrictions." (He either can't keep people like that little girl from harm, or He chooses not to for His own "secret" plans, but He is restricted by His ego, and His very "nature.")
You believe that what you've found in the Bible makes sense, and so that is how you see God. Anyone with a different idea of God is considered to be wrong, correct? Your Bible gives "God" restrictions. And those restrictions/attributes/and the like make sense to you.”
In one sense, yes you are correct, but it is a pretty drastic simplification of the whole process.
First, yes, God is restricted. And I don't know of any theologian, any, that has ever said different. Now, that may sound strange when I hold that God IS omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. But the Bible makes clear that God Himself cannot sin, cannot do anything against His own nature. So in that sense you and I agree.
But what would it mean to have an “unrestricted” God? Frankly, I can only see two ways. One is that God leaves Himself with unrestricted “goodness” to work with, in other words He would have created a group of automatons with no free will and no ability to choose to do things (for whatever reason) that are contrary to what He has told us. I've talked to many people who seem to think this would have been preferable to the way things are now, but these same people are usually the first to be angry at God for wanting to “take away freedom of choice.” So that's a Catch-22. The second way would be for God to be unrestricted and uninhibited, to be capable of both good and evil without making any distinction between the two. In other words, the ultimate sociopath. Granted, many people already level that claim against God, but a God with no restrictions would be more like Satan than Yahweh.
A clarification, a lot of things I've found in the Bible don't make sense to me. A lot more does now than did when I was 22, but I still get lost. What does make sense to me is that God, the God who has revealed Himself in the Bible, does exist. I've outlined the reasons several times, but if you haven't read them yet I will be happy to do so again.
“"Just because the "Christian God" makes sense to me doesn't mean that everything makes sense to me. I don't understand a lot of what happens and why He allows things."
That's probably one of the most humble answers I've seen. But something as simple as a supposedly loving God allowing some of the things He allows is ridiculous to me, when, if He is all powerful, He could change the very fabric of reality... but He doesn't, because He either doesn't want to, or He can't.”
That actually pretty much goes back to my previous point. What I hear you saying (please correct me if I'm wrong) is that in order for God to be loving, He would have to strip us of our humanity. And since the fact that we are “made in the image of God” is the essence of our humanity, I don't see how that's possible. I don't know why some things happen. Sometimes things happen so that good can come out of bad (like the story of Joseph,) but I don't claim to be an authority on the mind of God.
“"Some people say they started thinking critically, but then they only ever seem to think critically in ways that seem to disprove the Bible."
I've always thought critically. The process itself of critical thinking isn't what changed. At least not for me. It was more what I wasn't allowing myself to think, because such thoughts were labeled as being from "the Devil." That is not all that I do. But I am simply trying to get people to think. To step outside of the box that they were either placed in or placed themselves in who are actually good people, but becoming so indoctrinated in an ancient patriarchal religion that they start having limited and often prejudiced view points of people, situations, and the like, as if the world is black and white and there is no grey area.
If you want to believe in God, if that gives you strength, cool.
But when you start telling people that eternal damnation awaits them when they refuse to accept a God who supposedly loves them, that's where the issues begin. And that's when we will step in, the challengers, the debaters,the former-believers, etc...”
I'll say to you what I've said to others, and since you were once a Christian and have read the Bible, I hope you understand what I'm saying. I didn't make the rules. If it was up to me, I probably would go with the general idea of universalism that most people want to accept, i.e. that everybody makes it into Heaven except for the obvious like Hitler and Stalin. If you accept that God exists, correction, if you accept that Jesus is the Messiah, the Savior, then you have to start looking at what He said about Himself, and the idea that if you don't follow Him you are in for a rough time after you die is pretty much present throughout the Gospels. Most of His parables dealt with that.
I'm assuming that you've already read my response to Emile that outlines why I'm a Christian, so I won't belabor it here. God does love us all, and Jesus' death on the cross, the substitutionary atonement, is the sign of that love. What you do with it from there is your choice.
Part 1: (This is bit of a lengthy post, Chris, I hope you eventually take the time to read it.)
This is probably my last post back, not because I'm frustrated or anything, only because you seem to be pretty certain about what you believe. That's cool, man.
But, I only wish to comment on this. And also what I meant about changing the fabric of reality. To do so, I will have to give some background to build up to my point.
Firstly, I want to make some points about the God of the Bible, and how He can be seen by anyone, based on the standards that He has set on other men, based on scripture (the bad, because you seem to be well aware of the "good"), why I no longer believe what you do (and I was VERY much a "Christian"), and why your scenarios are not the ONLY possibilities.
Selfish: I think that "selfish" is self-explanatory. One who places his own importance above that of others. What has God ordered of us? To actually treat others as if they are more important (I believe that idea comes from one of Paul's epistles). But, God, because He is our "Creator" has put His own interests before ours. Why do I say this? My first question to you is, why did He create man? Was it for worship? Did He need company? What was His reasoning for creating us? After having created us, who has the fault when something goes wrong? The Creator or the created? The created are created against their own will, because they have NO will in the matter. They simply are. And they are because _He_ wanted them to be. Who's interest does He have in mind, then? What is owed to these created beings? Nothing? Are they simply at the disposal of the being who created them? In this specific God's case, it seems to be so. He created us, He created the rules to fit HIMSELF. (If He did not create the rules, He is a slave to something bigger than HImself, even) Because, if it was about us at all, when Adam and Eve sinned, He would not have instilled such a severe punishment. They were naive. They had no knowledge of Good and Evil until AFTER they ate of the tree, according to Genesis. So why were they punished so severely? His feelings were hurt. His "laws" were violated. He wanted His way, and when He didn't get it, He sentenced them to an eventual death. But it had NOTHING to do with the interests of the Creation themselves.
Unjust: (This first one is not an example from the BIble, but the next one will be)
1) He "answered" your prayers for new flooring, but ignored a little girl who prayed every day for freedom from a father who raped her daily for years. If there is nothing else to prove how unjust He is, this is more than enough.
2) In the Old Testament, there are scriptures where He has changed law, one being that children were no longer responsible for the sins of their fathers. (This will tie into the fact that He makes mistakes further down) If He made such a statement, why didn't He, then, forgive them all for what Adam and Eve did, and grant them wholeness again, and a bountiful life? If He saw how unjust is was for children to suffer their fathers sins, wouldn't it have been logical to apply this to all of humanity?
There are a NUMBER of things to prove His being unjust, including the very punishment he set for ignorant and naive mankind.
Partaker in Favoritism: Everything theme seems to be tying into another. The ultimate case here is: accept Me and you will be with Me forever. Reject Me, and you will burn forever. Only those who do what I love, will get my favor. Those who don't, aren't worthy of anything but Fire and Brimstone. (It's my way or the HIghway) I will cut them off from Me, and they will even be able to see me as they suffer. I will answer the prayers of a righteous man, but ignore the cries of a little girl (maybe she was atheist)
One Who Can Make Mistakes: The Old and the New Testament are probably the best example on a large scale. And then, you might say, He didn't make a mistake, just changed His approach OR, the OT was simply "leading up to" the New Testament.
Here's a scripture that can make any objective observer seriously doubt the latter, and of course the former proves nothing (and a serious contradiction)
Hebrews 9:12-13 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean.
Hebrews 10:1,4,&11 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves...For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins... Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
From the OT
Lev. 4:35 'He shall remove all its fat, as the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of the peace offering. Then the priest shall burn it on the altar, according to the offerings made by fire to the LORD. So the priest shall make atonement for his sin that he has committed, and it shall be forgiven him.
Was this a lie? Was this priest not actually being atoned for his sins, even though it states it here, clear as day, that he was? Was Jesus' purpose simply to make it easier to be atoned for sins, because it's all covering, instead of case by case? Not according to whoever wrote Hebrew. According to that scripture, this type of sarifice was insufficient for truly atoning sin, period.
So, either, the writer of Hebrews was lying, or the writer of Leviticus had a skewed view of God, and He hadn't revealed His true plans. Or God realized that He made a mistake, because His initial plan for sacrifice wasn't working deep enough in the heart of men. Actually, if the law had worked, Jesus wouldn't have been necessary. But who's fault was it that the Law was "insufficient?" The one who created the laws, or the ones who the laws were created for? Certainly, one who is all knowing would create laws and teach people in a manner that they could actually learn how to and would want to follow Him. But He created these people, and got pissed off that His rules didn't work. (Sounds to me like when parents get upset with their children who are displaying their SAME characteristics...)
So, what should I say to you? I know not your belief; nothing of your background. You are in a debate. Sorry!
The virgin birth wasn't to keep Jesus from having a sin nature. It was, actually the opposite-- to show his humanity, though not the humanity that comes from two biological parents; AND to show His divinity. Double purpose.
And that double purpose was to do two things---to show how much God Loves mankind, and to make them aware that they have something called choice where eternal Life is concerned. A call to repentance for the sinful nature that they could never overcome without divine help. That was Jesus's message---He called all men to repent. And then proceeded to show them the Way to do so.
What Jesus was was a unique person. Literally implanted into Mary's womb by the Holy Spirit (born of the Spirit) and literally physically born via childbirth (born of the water of the womb).
The Bible tells us that in order to be born again, we must be born of water and Spirit, natural and spiritual. Jesus was literally born like that, with attributes of both. Us humans, having been born of the water of the womb, but not having been placed divinely into a mother's body, must be re-born if we are to see God's Kingdom. And the only way to do that is to receive the Divine One's (Jesus's) Spirit into our hearts/souls.
I surely believe Jesus could have sinned if He had so chosen to! The Bible speaks to that fact also. We may wonder about that fact, because, no, God cannot sin. But indeed Jesus had a natural body. Yet He had the power to call legions of angels to rescue Him from the Cross. But He knew that if He did that, He would be cancelling out His very purpose for coming to earth---to go to that Cross and die for mankind's sins. He, knowing the consequences of the decision, made the choice. Just as all humans are called to make the choice, but we are blessed to have Him accessible to us. Jesus's adherence to His purpose showed mankind that we can make the choice, we can strive for the mark of ultimate salvation with the help of God only. Otherwise we are doomed.
" God cannot sin " . Are we on the same planet. Let's assume for a second that god exists... God can't say the lords name in vain, but he can let a child die of the most painful cancer. Sometimes people say the most stupid things.
To show His Divinity? Isn't divinity (particularly in Christianity)equal to being without sin? If God is without sin, and Jesus is both God and man, though he is "human," His God nature, unique only to him, would make it impossible for Him to sin. Imagine what more excuses Christians would make if they could even say "even Jesus fell short of the glory!!" That would probably be considered blasphemy, actually.
What scripture are you referring to where the Bible "speaks to the fact" that Jesus could've chosen to sin? And is that relevant if there even is one? The idea that any man, whether he has the "Holy Spirit" or not, can be completely without sin causes serious problems with arrogance in a person who even believes themselves to be seeking humility. No man can ever be completely without sin, it doesn't matter how long he "walks with God." But Jesus, according to you, was fully capable of not only making the decision NOT to sin, but being able to do so without failing. Impossible for a human according to the standards of your own scriptures.
I understand that there is a difference between a "sin lifestyle" and a "holy lifestyle" with the occasional slip up. But, I don't ever remember reading in the bible about Jesus sinning... ever. (Do I believe that, of course not) but, this is important, because it still speaks of the unattainable, that which only Christ could reach, that which made him solely possible of being a "sacrifice" for the human race.
Sin is doing something that's opposed to the will of God.
In Matthew 26: 53, Jesus emphasizes that He could pray to the Father and be given legions of angels to rescue Him from the Roman soldiers who laid hold of Him. In verse 54 He says that wouldn't fulfill the Scriptures. He knew what the Father's plan was for Him.
I said Jesus was unique.
The subject of His ability to sin or His inability to sin is one that's been debated by many people, even some Christians. I gave my belief on that. Some others may give a different opinion. There's much mystery surrounding the subject of Jesus. No wonder; because if there weren't, then we'd be talking about just another human being.
Everything Jesus did was for an example for mankind.
The important thing is that He did NOT sin. And He was, yes, the only Person who could've lived a sinless life.
What is impossible for a human is entirely possible with God. That's why humans need God in order to be delivered from sin.
So, only a human can give people a fact by fact account of who exactly they are and what they've done, can and can't do, etc.? Is "mystery" part of what keeps it special? I always find that to be a tad suspicious.
He was an example for mankind, but He was indeed the only person who could've lived a sinless life? Ever heard of trying to attain the unattainable?
Though I do not believe in your God, it is not Him I am questioning, but man. Even if nothing is "impossible" with God, there are many things that ARE impossible with man, even with an "omnipotent" God. That's been true since the beginning of time (according to the Bible). Sure, a devoted man's life would look very different from a man who's living what a Christian would view as a sinful life, but it does not mean necessarily that he would never sin. Only that he would live his life in a holy manner, and not give in so easily to "sin." But he would not be "sinless." And again, any man who believes himself to have reached or be able to reach that point will be very arrogant indeed, though believing himself humble.
Jesus doesn't save our lives in a proverbial sense, it's quite literal. God the Father is perfect, holy and Good. Being perfect, holy and Good He can't share Heaven with people who, by definition, aren't. But He created us so that we could be with Him in Heaven. So the only way for Him to forgive us and accept us into Heaven is for a sacrifice to take away our sins, for someone to take our sins on himself in order for them to be taken off of us. But the only being capable of accepting that level of sin, and being sinless enough to do it, would be God Himself. Therefor, Jesus, God the Son, had to die on the cross so that we would be (literally) saved from spending eternity in Hell.
But that also means we must accept that gift and follow Jesus. He said so Himself many times (read most of His parables.) Those who reject Him in this world will be rejected by Him in the next world.
Man has will, and man can choose to accept or deny Jesus, or even the existence of God, if he chooses. But if you do, you need to make sure that you are really right, and not simply doing what you want to do. "God consciousness" is not the same as knowing God. And worshipping the god you create for yourself (I think I'm quoting you from another forum) is not the same as worshipping the true God.
To answer your question more directly, yes, a loving parent does accept all His children, but if the children say they don't need that parent, then the parent is not obligated to reward those who hate Him.
Yes, but reality doesn't work like Jesus, where a real parent loves their children unconditionally rather than under obligation. And, it would be a very sad state of affairs if you treated your children the way Jesus treats you.
Chris go to "Is There really Life After Death! My Experience With the AfterLife. Just like my girlfriend who also sat outside the heavenly door. This lady experienced being on the otherside like my girlfriend and Jesus was there to go back it was not her time also. Believing is hard but experiencing makes everyone a believer!!!!
You have so much to learn about God and scripture.
You're very arrogant.
Accepting Yahshua, means being like him. Not just saying he exist(s)(ed)
It's time you grew in God
if only we were as perfect as you female rabbi of some mystic belief. Maybe you have some God powered amulet to help her? Are your clothes all of one fabric? Do you not pull your dog out of the river on a sunday? Would you tell jesus not to heal on the sabbath?
Its time you grew in Jesus. Jesus knew that people who live without God are not going to be able to unprogram a life time of ungodly living over night, so, for them and even some jews too, there is going to be a time of hypocrisy, but under the law there is no forgiveness for that is there? The law says thus and thus and then once breached what method does one use for forgiveness? Do we go to the temple and take our animal? When the law is breached once, it is breached for all of the law. Do we plead the blood of jesus to forgive our sins? Then your trangressions are no different than ours and you require the same grace that we do. So if we on our way to "being like him", stumble occasionally do you use the law to condemn us? or the blood of Jesus to atone for us.
Its time you grew in Jesus
Loves you but doesn't except you? I love you but if you don't worship my son I will cause great pain in you for eternity. THAT does not sound like love to me.
Tell me, if your son did everything in his power to let you know that he hates you and doesn't want anything to do with you and doesn't even want to acknowledge your existence, are you really obligated to give him literally anything he wants? Anything and everything?
Once again, you make the fatal error in asserting a parent's love for their children has anything to do with obligation.
I would feel pity and would have nothing to do with any parent who raised their kids with that in mind. Extremely selfish behavior.
Is that what Jesus taught you?
If I make that error it is only because that seems to be the basis of so many people's rejection of Jesus (though probably not yours.) They seem to be saying "If God really loved me then He would accept me into Heaven no matter what I do." The answer to that is that He does, but He wants certain thing in return.
I absolutely agree with your second point and it was pretty much what I was saying.
If I really believed that you were interested in what Jesus has taught me, then I would not hesitate to tell you. We've been at this a long time.
Yes, he wants certain things in return, which is not what parents want because they love their children unconditionally, and that is why those doctrines of Christianity fail to teach anyone morality and love, but instead teach petty selfishness.
You have been telling us what Jesus has taught you, that is why we are arguing about it and why your entire concept of it is flawed.
You can't have it both ways. Either true parents love their kids unconditionally and therefor will give them whatever they want no matter what they do, or those parents are to be pitied and are not real parents. It can't be both.
OR, you just like finding ways to "prove me wrong," no matter how much you have to stretch it (gee, it's not like I haven't called you out on that one more than once, is it?)
OR, God does love all His children (ALL His children!) unconditionally, but since you can't or won't accept that there even might be a supernatural world, then you just like to yell!
It is the former, obviously, and is well known for the vast majority who actually are parents.
Gods don't love unconditionally and anyone would lying to say so.
Your fantasies about supernatural worlds are only accepted by the deluded or insane.
No. God doesn't lie, and He does love unconditionally. You just put conditions on your acceptance, then cover over your prejudice with your hurtful words and inflexible attacks.
But then you always have!
That is entirely false and you know it.
Are you serious? Off all the things you repeat yourself on again and again, this is the inanity you have been reduced to? Of all the broad, unsupportable accusations and sneering, personal jabs you take, this is where you go?
*sigh* No, it is entirely true, and I have better proof of it than I do that you actually exist and aren't just some teenaged hacker sitting in Romania having fun with "stupid Americans."
I think it's you that's inflexible. Do you know what a condition is? Believe in me or? Worship me or. Follow my ten conmandments. If you can't acknowledge that, you are (inflexible, using your own words).
Change is necessary and unavoidable, something hiding behind religion or "belief" will not cure.
Change is necessary and change is unavoidable. People change, situations change, seasons change. Things do change. But it's not "hiding behind religion or 'belief'" to say that God does not change.
"God is comfort food for those that fear death..."
Great bumper sticker! But bad theology and bad sociology. Lost in this argument is the demand that Christianity places on those who claim to be followers of Christ, who are doubly accountable for themselves. Yes, that is in the Bible. Those who claim Christ yet live the "unexamined life" and yet still condemn others are no better than, and are in fact much worse than, nonbelievers who devote their time to talking about how crummy the Christians are.
Any god that can qualify as "comfort food" is and can only ever be an invention of human imaginings. The real God of the universe way too big and way too scary. It's easier to simply say He doesn't exist...
All right, let's deal with this. Am I inflexible? Yes, I am adamantine that God does exist. I will not, and for reasons I have made amply clear, CANNOT "concede" the possibility/probability/definite article that God does not exist. Does that make me more inflexible than someone who holds as an absolute (and is not shy about saying so) that belief in God is belief in a fairy tale? Only if you hold the belief in God as axiomatically inflexible and any other belief no matter what or how it's expressed as axiomatically flexible.
And come on, to imply that ATM is flexible and I am not? Have you read his posts? He makes me look positively squishy.
I never said that God has no conditions on anything (in fact, I said that He DOES put conditions on something!) His love is unconditional, and His love does not depend at all on your worshiping Him. The act by which He displayed his unconditional love was for Jesus to die on the cross for all human beings, to save us from our sins. If you spent the rest of your life saying that God doesn't exist and anyone who believes in him is an idiot of psychotic, that fact would remain. What DOES have a condition is whether you go to Heaven or hell when you die. And yes, that condition is that you follow Jesus, follow His teachings. And it could be argued that if you don't do that, you didn't really want to go to Heaven in the first place.
See, Heaven is not some cumulonimbus cloud where everyone's nebulous idea of "bliss" is played out, no matter what it is or how it conflicts with anyone else's or the Bible. Heaven is the place where those who live there are in the unfiltered presence of God all the time! So, if you spend your life on Earth saying God doesn't exist, then what makes anyone believe that you would want to spend eternity forced to be with Him?
Put aside ATM and others. You admit to being inflexible. Fine. You say his love in unconditional and yet he has conditions. You seem to be afraid of this Heaven or Hell thing. Just like a kid being bullied. Give me your lunch money or I'll beat you up. That's what you base your believe on? A threat? Would a loving father do that? Come on.
I admit to being inflexible about the existence of God, and that's it. I say His love is unconditional and it is. What His conditions pertain to I have outlined, and it's not His love.
If God exists, and there is a Heaven and a Hell, then wouldn't you be afraid? That's not a rhetorical question. Because you have decided that God does not exist you feel free to judge me like a little child and treat me as same. That is certainly a privilege you can exercise here, but the simplistic analysis and condescending tone you bring are neither accurate nor true. You completely sidestepped what I actually said to give me your take on it.
Your soul is worth much more than your lunch money.
Go back and read what I actually wrote, and respond to that. What you wrote is on a different subject.
I don't believe I called anyone a idiot or psychotic. I also don't believe intelligence has anything to do with faith. However, as I said before you are a bully. You say "believe or burn in hell". You can go through your entire life thinking that all I have to do is worship god to get a good place in heaven. But I'm not afraid. I don't reject God. I just don't see him. I don't think the stories of the bible were written by a loving god or any god for that matter. The bible has rules for when your allowed to kill or rape. There is just to much cruelty. You be afraid. You talk down to me. I know a bully when I see one.
A bully? Wow! And whoa! I've never been accused of that one before. Liar, yes, but not bully.
If you feel I've bullied you then I'm truly sorry. I try to keep an even keel but sometimes I do get pretty intense (although I've read your posts and you can get a little, ah, in your face yourself.) Until that last post in this thread I thought I was just sticking to explaining the thought processes. If my Biblical thinking is off, then you're more than welcome to challenge and debate it. But I will admit that I got carried away in the last one, because I thought YOU were treating ME like a child! And truly, I didn't catch that you were calling me a bully, because I've so often read people using that same language about God and thought you were doing the same. Actually, it's probably a good thing I did miss that.
Let me make a few things clear:
1) If I've talked down to you, I'm sorry. It was an unfortunate reaction to what you were doing, but I shouldn't have done it.
2) The "idiot or psychotic" blurb didn't necessarily refer to you, specifically. It was a general statement that anybody who spends their life saying these things (and I've dealt with many who never use the specific words but whose attitudes are such that they might as well just go ahead,) still is loved by God as demonstrated by Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.
3) I need to remind you of a couple of things here. One is that early in our interaction you said you'd read the Bible and actually know what it says. I said great, then when I quote the Bible you will know what I'm talking about. So you should know that I didn't make the rules, nor do I enforce them. If I'm explaining the Biblical position, that's not me condescending to you or anyone else. And I also said I didn't expect you to agree with me, just that you would know what I was talking about.
The second thing is that, as I've said, I have felt the presence of the Holy Spirit. God has made Himself known to me. I don't wield that like a club over anybody else's head. As I've said, even faithful church-goers look at you funny if they've never experienced it. But, and this is true no matter what cause you want to ascribe to it, I have experienced it. And I've struggled to understand it. And I've struggled to understand His Word. So yeah, I read it, and I read what other people have to say about it.
I won't get hung up on a semantic argument about whether failure to accept God is the same as rejecting Him. Plenty of things I've done could be interpreted that way if you have a mind to. However, if you think that no one in conservative circles has ever thought about your point that "the bible has rules for when your allowed to kill or rape" then you are mistaken and I would recommend the book, Is God A Moral Monster? If you have any specific points you want to bring up, I would be happy to talk about them with you.
Let me repeat, I never intended to bully you. If I came across that way, I regret it and apologize for it.
Speaking of WOW.
Thanks for investing the time to sending those kinds words. This part of you is more Christ like. Being raised as a Christian I can distinguish the difference. I've been accused of being Christ like many times, mostly by fellow atheists. It gets engrained in your psyche and I believe that's a good thing. My kids are being raised as Christians and I don't let them know what I think. One of my kids has asked, I told him my thoughts. He is still Christian and I don't question him. I like the teaching of Christ, but not so much what Christianity has become. I don't think people should be profiting from it, that's not Christian. I think if the bible was the word of God it should be perfect. If a perfect God made it, it should be perfect. It's simply not. See my hub... http://rad-man.hubpages.com/hub/Do-we-g … the-Bible.
You will win more people over if you appeal to them in this manor. I will try to do the same.
I dont' believe I've ever said I read the entire bible. I've tried. Can't get through it. I'm just fascinated by what makes someone believe and someone not. We are the same, but not.
Look, I can't change you and you can't change me, but we can respect each other.
troubled man, you mean to say that if your children disobey you, you would reward them? Our world is in bad shape. I wonder if it has something to do with parents rewarding bad behavior. If we should believe that bad actions be forgiven without repentance, remorse etc. then why do the right thing?
Interesting comment Chris. You've changed the subject but I'll tackle it anyway. Using your analogy the father have never showed himself. There is no proof of his existence. Do you expect the son to worship his absent father? Does the absent father expect worship?
Ah, but the Father is not absent.
I didn't mean to change the subject, I was trying to answer the basic question (sort of.)
God is here, and some of us have heard from Him more directly than others. I have felt His presence, I have seen Him work in my life through answered prayers and through other methods. Obviously you don't agree, and I don't blame you. I used to be a nihilist, certainly not anything close to a Christian. God reached out to me, not the other way around. So when I say, "No the son is not expected to worship the absent father," it's because the father is not absent. And He does expect worship, but again, He's not absent. And once you understand that He's not an absentee landlord, worship becomes a much less contentious issue.
I know you mean well, however become concerned when one says they talk directly with God.
But once again I'll let you change the subject yet again. Are you saying he only makes himself available to some? I've prayed. Never heard anything back. Does he only speak to christians? I was once a Christian, never heard from him. Why would he talk to some and not to others? Doesn't that seem odd to you? I'll take your word that you think he talks directly to you, I don't think you would say such things just to manipulate, but you may want to look for help if you are hearing voices in your head.
Yes the Father you speak is absent. Can't see him or hear him or prove his existence.
Ah yes. If I were "smart" I would probably know better than to tell people I've heard from God or seen His working in my life. At that point 90% of the people I "talk" to treat me as a) insane or b) stupid or (usually) c) both. No, I'm not insane and no, I'm not stupid.
I used to have ready, glib answers as to why some people "hear" from God and others don't. But the fact is, I don't know. I wasn't always a Christian, and before I became one (at the age of 22) I didn't believe ANY of the stuff in the Bible or that preachers talked about. But I thought of myself as "open-minded" and a woman I knew challenged me to prove it, so I attended church with her. And there God reached out to me. I've tried since then (long story which I will probably never explain) to stop being a Christian once, but I could never forget the experience. It just wouldn't let me go, And I was so not the kind of person who had "experiences."
Am I saying He only makes Himself available to some? NO! He makes Himself available to all, although when you're not a Christian you don't always see it. If you don't believe the Bible is His word, then you don't think of it as a way that He is available. And if you think Christians are, I don't know, misguided/bigoted/mislead/simple/anachronistic/pick one or substitute your own, then you don't think of them as a way He makes Himself available to you. I certainly didn't. And many of us behave in ways that shut other people off, that's true.
My brother, when he was 11, "walked the aisle" to accept Jesus. He's not like that now. I thought he was nuts. Now I'm a Christian. I don't have an answer for that. I don't know if you wanted some kind of mystical experience akin to the burning bush or not. God works in mysterious ways and His ways are not ours. I just know that I've seen prayers answered (and no, not for money. He hasn't answered those, or I should say He has but His answer was "no.") Some of those stories would be very interesting to relate. No, I don't hear voices in my head, in fact I've never "heard a voice." But I've felt His presence just the same. I've only been "filled with the Holy Spirit" a couple of times, but it's like nothing else. And even other Christians, believers who regularly attend church and can quote Scripture backwards and forwards, look at you funny when they haven't experienced it themselves.
He isn't absent. I hope and pray that you do see Him. I can think of nothing better for anyone.
I am glad that you found something that hopefully makes you a better person. I didn't work that way for me. I was raised as a christian and in my teenage years I started thinking critically. What makes sense was the order of the day. When I found the answer I wasn't happy. When you're raised with the idea of heaven and it gets taken away your not happy. But the apple that Adam ate was knowledge. No more bliss for him, as he understands the nature of the world. He sees the cruelty. But I'm happier this way. I'm not living a lie. Praying to a God that doesn't exist.
Rad, I'm back.First of all, who said it was an apple that Adam ate? I ask you, if you don't believe in something how can you expect any thing from that which you don't believe in? The name of His followers are Believers. You must truly have faith that He is who He is. The only way Heaven can be taken away from you is that you reject it. Satan and his minions are here to help you do just that. After Adam made the mistake of eating the fruit in the garden there were consequences that were placed on mankind. The Book says you are to endure until the end. You are to be tried in the fire to see if you are worthy. The reward is great, ever lasting live if you prove to be deserving. If not you die. This is His world, His universe, He makes the rules. Is it not so in your house? Sure, He sees the evil things that man does in this world, but this is to make you stronger for what the very near future will bring. A great tribulation like has never been seen. All those who have chosen to be with satan will drink the wine of his wrath without mercy. And you don't want Him mad with you!!! I want you to read, no, you have got to read Lev.26,Deut.27 on,then Ezek.8. Young man time is short. It is 11:30. You don't have time to tarry.I hope and will pray that you take the time to seek his word, if you do sincerly and earnestly light will be shed. If you continue more light will be shed until all the truths are revealed to you. I know this for a fact. Yours in our Father Yahuah
You are no more right than me. I'm not sure why christians say your either with me or your against me. If you don't believe in god your siding with the devil. Well guess what, if one doesn't believe in God then he doesn't believe in the devil. If one doesn't believe in God it doesn't me he rejects God. Atheists are no less moral than christians. I have nothing to hid. You come at me like the mafia. Be my friend and give me some money or I'll burn your house down.
Wow, that was a pretty visceral response.
Who said anything about money? Not me, and not Robert (I dont think.) And certainly not Jesus. In fact, Jesus said, "Sell you belongings and give to the poor," not, "Sell your belongings and give to the church!" If the church you were involved in was one of those that pressures people for tithes, then I'm sorry. That's not Biblical, and that's not Christian.
It was Jesus who said, "Whoever is not with me is against me." He also said, "Whoever does not sew scatters." People who don't believe in God may not make formal declarations that they are against Him, but if they spend their time telling people that there is no God then they might as well.
"Atheists are no less moral than Christians." I don't know how true that is as a percentage or in hard numbers, but it's certainly true that many atheists are just as nice as any Christian, and many Christians are just as worldly as atheists. The reason atheists might (as a group) be just as moral as Christians is because so many Christians don't live up to the standards set forth by Jesus. They don't even really try. The truth of your statement is a sad commentary on t he sorry state of the American church as much (if not more) than it is on the uprightness of unbelievers.
I thought you were agnostic? You said you don't say He isn't there, just that you don't see Him. Have you started saying categorically that He does not exist?
"I have nothing to hide." Well good! Sadly, one of the things that makes so many Christians so worldly is that, instead of coming clean when they realize how far short of Godly principals they fall, they try to hide it and keep on doing the things they love. It makes for a mess. Often times (and especially in America,) the worst advertising for Christ is Christians!
Any part of the world, not just America. Witch burnings, stonings and torture are still practiced in some countries, such as Africa and parts of south America. While they are isolated incidents, they still occur. Religious folks can definitely be dangerous, especially when in packs.
Very well spoken Chris,
Perhaps you misunderstood my Mafia analogy. The mafia approaches business owner and asks for money to protect them from the mafia. Some (christians) claim if you don't Believe and worship god you will burn in hell. I find that offensive. It's just so hypocritical to state that the God you believe in is loving and forgiving, but if you don't worship or believe in a God that has never showed himself or for that matter perhaps the individual has never heard of Christianity then that God would let them burn in hell.
I don't have a problem with the relationship you seem to have with the God you believe in. I do have a problem with organized religion. The Catholics pick a choose what everyone should do and believe. They don't allow female priest because Jesus picked men as disciples, but they don't follow the wear no sandals advice.
I also have a problem with the (American Church) of which you speak. They try to hard to control the Government. All countries that have a strong separation between church and state are much better off. Without this separation we North Americans would be like Europe in the middle ages. I am perplexed at why Christians in the US vote for the Republican Party. I understand that it has something to do with the abortion issue, but the Republicans don't seem to be any longer concerned for the needy. Which seems to me to be what christianity is all about.
I think some people need a threat of a God to keep them in line. I have no problem with that and would never tell someone there is no God unless they tell me that if I don't listen to them I'll burn in hell.
I don't believe there is a God. I see no evidence in a God. At one time I did believe, but looked at the cruelty of this world and the lack of evidence. I asked for clear evidence in the bible, because that is the only evidence Christian have in God. I don't have a problem with the concept of God, I have a problem with those that are profiting from it. If you are as Jesus was my hates off to you. My hats of to Mother Teresa and Gandhi.
Sorry, but there are very few other alternatives than that.
That's not being open minded, that's pure gullibility. You failed the challenge from the get go.
Ah, here we go again, and it is me who is criticized by others when I say Christians should "believe the Bible is His word" when they don't want to and when it suits their purposes.
No, you haven't. You've merely wished for things to happen, some do and some don't. It's called reality.
Really? And, you compare "His presence and filled with the Holy Spirit" to what? How did you know for a fact that is what you experienced? What comparisons to reality did you make to know that? Or, is it just something you really, really, really wanted to believe?
Chris, I just want to say something. Many people have the priviledge to speak to and with the Holy Spirit! I do constantly. He is the comforter whom Jesus sent to us when he left earth to be with his Father. Believe me HE is real! Others may not believe it can be, but it is because they don't believe like a child. That is what it takes. My girlfriend was in a coma for 5 months and she sat on a rock in the middle of a river in heaven with Jesus coaxing her back in her body all that time because he told her it was not her time. Finally he forced her back in her body and she woke up with water on her legs from the knees down!!! The nurses and doctors all wondered where the water came from. She is on my face book account, she only weighed 54 pounds. They never thought she would come out of the coma.
Rad Man, The Father can read your heart. In other words, you can lie to me or even yourself, but you can't lie to him. Maybe you were'nt being honest when you petitioned him for whatever it was. Also He may not come you want him, but He is ALWAYS on time!!!
Of course, we don't believe you, it's pure baloney. You've simply taken the "work in my life and through other methods" scenarios and have combined them with your irrational beliefs about Jesus.
You could have just as easily said Allah or the Tooth Fairy and it would still be equally invalid.
And you could just as easily confess that you simply like to argue.
But you won't, will you?
Would any proof of God's existence be adequate?Non-believers always demand more.
What evidence do you or anyone else have that God does not exist?
There are many complex systems that require multiple parts working in harmony to accomplish a goal. For example, there are numerous chemical reactions required to cause blood to clot. Missing any step would mean that a creature would bleed to death from a wound. So how could these multiple step systems gradually evolve?
We would not have evolved we would have become extinct.We would have died out before this process of evolving perfected itself.
Evolutionists have lied.Google the Piltdown hoax or Ernst Haeckel’s Embryos,Heidelberg man, Nebraska man.
Google Richard Dawkins,he has faced charges of engaging in pseudoscience and also has faced charges of committing elementary errors.
Evolution IS a religion, because it lacks scientific evidence, thus requiring it's adherents to follow Darwin's theory by FAITH. Evolution is a RELIGIOUS CREED based upon blind faith.
L. Harrison Matthews. In his forward to Darwin's 1971 edition of "Origin of the Species", Matthews says, "". . .Belief in the theory of evolution is thus exactly parallel to belief in special creation--both are concepts which believers know to be true but neither, up to the present, has been capable of proof."
In other words, the theory of evolution is a theory based on FAITH, rather than scientific fact.
How did dinosaur scales or skin evolve into bird's feathers?
Google,Archaeoraptor,a forged fossil originally reported to have been the missing link between dinosaurs and birds.
How did the giraffe evolve? It's neck is so long and heart so big that it's head should explode when it raises it back up from getting a drink of water,but it has a system in place to keep that from happening.
It would have died out, again this process of evolving would have made them extinct before it became the creature that it is.The answer is that it was created that way.
Google the Bombardier beetle,It defends itself by mixing chemicals that explode; firing through twin tail tubes that can swivel like gun turrets. The bubbling liquid that shoots out at 212 degrees Fahrenheit is enough to deter most predators.
Bombardier Beetle could not have evolved its sophisticated defense system over time, adding swiveling gun barrels or its repeater firing mechanism at different stages. It needed them all in one package, at the same time. A beetle that blew itself up would not be around to develop a more refined firing system. A beetle that could not keep the enemy in firing range would not survive to work on more maneuverable firepower.
How much proof do you need that there is a Creator.There is proof to be seen but not if you are blind.
I'm a little short on time right now so I'll get back to this later, but the laryngeal nerve of the giraffe is proof of natural selection. The laryngeal nerve branches off the Vagus nerve at the base of the brain, travels down the neck, around the arteries of the heart and travels back up the neck to ennervate the larynx, or voice box, thereby providing motor function. No intelligent designer would have a nerve travel all the way down the neck of a giraffe and back up. But that how an animal of this nature would evolve. The nerve would simple get longer. It wouldn't make a new path.
Just because you don't understand natural selection or evolution or it conflicts with a 2000 year old book doesn't mean it's not real.
Your education system has done you a disservice.
Why would no intelligent designer have created the laryngeal nerve that way? Why is it almost always assumed that God is neither an artist nor possessed of a sense of humor? And why, because humans seem incapable of imagining the laryngeal nerve, do we assume that God therefor could not either?
It's not an automatic given that any animal would evolve the way it has. Evolution is a scientific theory, not a scientific law. Just because a majority of scientists feel there's enough evidence that whatever is missing will show up eventually is not the same as saying we have absolute proof. But the education system (I'm a product of public education, I have never attended a religious school) treats it as a done deal and there are not other possible explanations. And in that way, it is our education system that has done the disservice.
Think about this, when challenged about the validity of evolution, what is the first reaction of evolutionists? Is it cerebral, or is it visceral? And when challenged about the Bible, what is the first reaction of most Christians? Cerebral, or visceral?
If your answer to the first question is "cerebral" ("No, no, here's why I believe what I believe, let me show you...") then you are either lying or you know that rarefied five percent of the population who don't react with their guts.
The difference between the giraffe and other mammals is the length of the neck. When the neck lengthened over much time the nerves couldn't detach themselves to take a much shorter route. It had to adapt. It doesn't make sense for the nerve to travel back down the neck and back up again. It's just one of many things that the rest of the world (even the Pope) excepts. The only reason you are having a hard time with it is because it conflicts with the bible.
Humans adapt/evolve to there environment constantly. Those living away from the equator have lighter skin. Those in the far north have shorter limbs and have other adaptions that help them from getting frost bitten.
Science is not trying to disprove ID. It's trying to disprove evolution, but has not been able to yet. It doesn't care about ID.
But perhaps your 2000 year old book knows more about science.
Evidence leans more to there being a point of time when things were created and not to something evolving from nothing.
Something can not evolve from nothing.
If the fossil records were complete, and the evolutionists were honest serious scientists, every one on Earth would accept the evolution as a fact. The record would show, for example, how a giraffe evolved. The long neck of the giraffe is often used to illustrate the evolution hypothesis. The long neck evolved from short-necked ancestors. The short-necked giraffe could graze on grass, but as the grass became scarce, so the only remaining food source was the leaves of trees. Then each short-necked giraffe would stretch its neck to reach the leaves on the trees. As these giraffes reproduced, the result of the neck stretching would be passed to their offspring. This hypothesis can be criticized on several points. Where are, in the fossil record, giraffes with short necks? There is no answer. Why did this happen only to giraffes? There is no answer. Why don’t we have donkeys, for example, with long necks? There is no answer. Why did not all the grass-eating animals develop long necks? There is no answer.
If evolution were a fact, the fossil record would reveal a gradual changing from one kind of life form to another.
Evolutionary theorists have argued that the gradual change from one life form to another took a lengthy period of time for which the fossil record was missing! ...How convenient.
What the fossil record actually reveals is the opposite of the evolution hypothesis.
Cockroaches appeared in the fossil record 280 million years ago. Flies appeared in the fossil record 40 million years ago. Ants appeared in the fossil record 25 million years ago. Cockroaches, flies, and ants in the fossil record are very similar to their present day counterparts. Cockroaches are still Cockroaches. Flies are still flies. Ants are still ants. Cockroaches did not evolve to flies, and flies did not evolve to ants!
Are there any fossils of giraffes or camels with necks of one quarter, one half, and three quarters their present necks? No.
Are there any fossils of birds evolving a beak from a reptile jaw? No.
Is there any fossil evidence of fish developing an amphibian pelvis? No.
Is there any fossil evidence of fish fins turning into amphibian legs, feet and toes? No.
The bible is not my book.I am not quoting any scripture here.
The Bible is not a science book, yet it is scientifically accurate. I am not aware of any scientific evidence that contradicts the Bible.
The Bible describes the precision of movement in the universe.
The Bible describes the suspension of the Earth in space.
The Bible describes the circulation of the atmosphere.
The Bible includes some principles of fluid dynamics.
The Bible described the shape of the earth centuries before people thought that the earth was spherical.
Hydrothermal vents are described in two books of the Bible written before 1400BC—more than 3,000 years before their discovery by science.
And so on and so on. there is much, much more I could keep going.
I can't take anything you just said seriously. The bible is comparable to a childrens tale... The earth is suspended in space in the bible and it's flat too, right?
You take that crap as truth? As fact?
Even a menatlly handicapped 8 year old could poke holes in it's "logic" and "historic fact".
I did not say that the earth is suspended in space by the bible. LOL
I said " The Bible describes the suspension of the Earth in space"
Do you not understand English?
I said ,"The Bible described the shape of the earth centuries before people thought that the earth was spherical."
Spherical means round not flat.
If you do not know English then your comments are understandable but if you do understand English..then your comments make it seem as though your own understanding is quite lacking .
Seriously,that is comical.
If "a mentally handicapped 8 year old could poke holes in it ",then you should have no problem explaining what these "holes" are, right?
A coherent,cohesive discussion with you is nearing impossible.
Show me where the bible indicates a spherical earth. Don't try to tell anyone the bible does not conflict with known science. The Koran talks about the earth being shaped like an egg. Muslims justify that as being accurate. Show me where the bible is accurate in any way to todays understanding of science. If you produce one passage, I'll show you 20 that describe land being held up by pillars and the like.
Show me... I'll wait.
Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
"Even a menatlly handicapped 8 year old could poke holes in it's "logic" and "historic fact"."
Then you can do it, right? Because if you can't, then you shouldn't talk so big. And if you can, you should do it because otherwise all you're doing is the exact same thing you accuse us of doing. And if you've done it before then you need to do it again, or show me where you did.
It's so easy to get personal and sling harsh words. It's hard to teach. And I know because there have been times when I've shot my mouth off, and then couldn't back it up. I try very hard to do better than that, now. But it's still so easy for both sides to default to name-calling as some kind of ersatz debate, and it will never advance the conversation. Of course there are people who you will never convince, no matter what. But if you really have the TRUTH on your side, then to simply assume that anyone you talk to is "that guy," and you default, then you're guilty of worse. And the same goes for my side too.
Evolution - The horse, the donkey and the mule. oh and the Zebra. Horses and donkeys are different species, with different numbers of chromosomes. Yet they have not been separated by evolution enough to not offspring. The Mule is unable to reproduce. This is an example of evolution. Seeing evolution in progress.
The Lion and the Tiger is a similar story.
You (Evidence leans more to there being a point of time when things were created and not to something evolving from nothing.)
Me, What evidence? You have evidence? Please share because the rest of the world would like to here.
The bible does not describe any of those things of which you speak. Oh wait perhaps it mention the earth suspended in space. But the earth is not suspended in space. We are traveling around out Sun and in turn traveling our galaxy and the galaxy is racing through space.
Scientifically accurate? Show me. What a joke. Do you believe what you said?
You are not even comprehending what I said.You are taking what I have said out of context and then restating them in your own context.
I said, "The Bible described the shape of the earth"
"described the shape of the earth"
You want to be stuck on the word spherical.
Spherical was my word not the bibles word.
The bible described the earth as being a circle.
Yes,the bible does describe every single one of those things I spoke of..otherwise I would not have said it.
I tend to not make statements like those that can't be biblically backed up.
You should try studying it and learning for yourself.
I've already posted what I consider evidence.
Why is what I say a joke but what you say is not?
Because your statement said the bible describes earth as being spherical.
(Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:)
A circle is not a sphere. A circle is flat (2 dimensional). A sphere is 3 dimensional.
Show me where the bible says the earth is spherical
Your exact words
(The Bible described the shape of the earth centuries before people thought that the earth was spherical.)
Yes it certainly does, but it describes the earth as being a circle. You implied the bible was accurate. You lied. You said the bible was scientifically accurate. Show me. Something... anything...
I said "The Bible described the shape of the earth centuries before people thought that the earth was spherical."
I said the bible DESCRIBED the shape of the earth BEFORE PEOPLE THOUGHT IT WAS SPHERICAL..I did NOT say that the bible said it was spherical.Can you really not comprehend one sentence you are stumbling on the word spherical and trying to make it seems as though I said something I did NOT say.
I said PEOPLE ..THOUGHT..IT.. WAS.. SPHERICAL ..not the bible said it was spherical.
The point is that the bible said the earth was a circle way before science said it was round/circular or a sphere.
The Bible describes the suspension of the Earth in space.
He stretches out the north over empty space;
He hangs the earth on nothing.
The Bible includes some principles of fluid dynamics.
To establish a weight for the wind,
And apportion the waters by measure.
The fact that air has weight was proven scientifically only about 300 years ago.
The Bible describes biogenesis (the development of living organisms from other living organisms) and the stability of each kind of living organism.
Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
The phrase “according to its kind” occurs repeatedly, stressing the reproductive integrity of each kind of animal and plant.
The bible includes reasonably complete descriptions of the hydrologic cycle.
He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth;
He makes lightning for the rain;
He brings the wind out of His treasuries.
When He utters His voice,
There is a multitude of waters in the heavens:
“And He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth.
He makes lightning for the rain,
He brings the wind out of His treasuries.”
In these verses you can see several phases of the hydrologic cycle—the worldwide processes of evaporation, translation aloft by atmospheric circulation, condensation with electrical discharges, and precipitation
For He draws up drops of water,
Which distill as rain from the mist,
Which the clouds drop down
And pour abundantly on man.
Indeed, can anyone understand the spreading of clouds,
The thunder from His canopy?
This simple verse has remarkable scientific insight. The drops of water which eventually pour down as rain first become vapor and then condense to tiny liquid water droplets in the clouds.
The Hydrothermal vents---3,000 years before their discovery by science.
In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
Have you entered the springs of the sea?
Or have you walked in search of the depths?
The Bible...science before there was science
the problem is that the spherical shape of the earth was lost in the translation of the Book of Job from Edomite's Hebrew in to Jewish Hebrew.
Job, who was the author of the poetry part of the Book of Job, was Edomite and the poetry part was written in a dialect distinct from the Jerusalem dialect use for most of the Old Testament; no Northwest Semitic text found to date is identical to this dialect.
Languages that possibly influenced the language of Job and are displayed in the Job are: Aramaic, Akkadian, Egyptians, Ugaritic, Arabic and Phoenician; there are more than 250 parallels between Job and Ugaritic literature. In fact the language is Hebrew but differing from the Jewish Hebrew dialect used in other Old Testament books.
In addition, over one hundred words in the Book of Job are not found elsewhere in the Hebrew Bible; most of the rarer words and forms appear in the poetic material of the dialogues, while the prose prologue and epilogue are written in the more classical style of the Hebrew Old Testament. It indicates different origin of the two sections.
The style of poetry division of Job is not really Mosaic; Moses uses the name of “Yahweh” often, whereas Job in the poetry part uses the name “Shaddai” (The Almighty).
Most of the futures mentioned above are reconcilable with the idea that the poetry part of the Book of Job was composed by a non-Israelite author on non-Israelite soil.
Jacques Bolduc suggested in his commentary of 1637, that the Book of Job may have been authored in a secondary way by Moses who found it in its original Aramaic form. His opinion is in partial agreement with the belief of Sir John William Dawson, Canadian scientist of worldwide reputation and long time principle of McGill, who wrote in The Expositor:
“It would now seem that the language and theology of the Book of Job can be better explained by supposing it to be a portion of Minean [Southern Arabia] literature obtained by Moses in Midian than in any other way. This view also agrees better than any other with its references to natural objects, the art of mining, and other matters.”
Job 26:10 reads:
English Standard Version (ESV)
10 He has inscribed a circle on the face of the waters at the boundary between light and darkness.
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
He hath compassed the waters with bounds - The word rendered "compassed" (חוּג chûg), means to describe a circle - to mark out with a compass; and the reference is to the form of the horizon, which appears as a circle, and which seems to be marked out with a compass.
This type of a circle indicates the shape of the earth to be spherical, not flat.
Just because you can not comprehend what I am saying does not make me a liar.
You said the bible DESCRIBED the shape of the earth BEFORE PEOPLE THOUGHT IT WAS SPHERICAL.
Yes it did, but it was not described accurately was it. It was described as a flat circle. You said the bible was accurate. You are wrong.
What is you point?
You said (The point is that the bible said the earth was a circle way before science said it was round/circular or a sphere.)
You are proving my point.
You said (The Bible...science before there was science)
Ya, the bible science is all wrong. Completely.
Look, your claim was that the bible described the shape of the earth accurately. Where?
Rad Man, you are misquoting what I have said over and over and over.You keep saying I said things I did not say..over and over and over.
Then you call me a liar.
You can try to twist what I have said into a lie but people can read what I have said for themselves and hopefully have a better understanding.
What would be the point in continuing the conversation with this kind of repeated behavior on your behalf.
At least I can give examples of why I believe what I believe..and why I say what I say.
You SEEM to believe what you believe just cause you say so and that is that ,with out showing any kind of reason why you believe that way..it's pretty much just cause you say so.
I am wrong just because you say so..You cannot show me anywhere I am wrong or a liar..instead of trying to refute what I have said with your own words ..you restate a twisted version of what I said and then tell me to refute it...Um,I am not debating myself.
I have answered.I can't help if you don't get it.
I had read that some had translated that word circle as sphere but I personally could not prove that that would be a correct translation that is why I did not mention it.
Rad, if you've got the science then use the science. Getting hung up on what amounts to a semantic argument, and only one point at that, is not helping you. I find what you have to say interesting (I'm not joking or making that up, I'm not making fun of you, I really mean that) until you start in on the Bible. You say you've read it, you say you can quote it, but you'd never know it. You bring up the same broad accusations and insults that people who've never read the Bible do. If you want to convince me then convince me, don't talk down to me.
I'm looking for spherical.
What a joke."
You were actually pretty good while you stuck with evolutionary theory. When you talk about things that most people, Christian or not,, don't have any real answer for. But then you challenged the Bible. Then you wilted. If you have the 20 verses (and I'm not holding you to a literal twenty, just show me any verses where the Bible states the Earth is flat!) then show them man! Don't take a moment of semantics to just say "You don't know what you're talking about!" because if you can't follow through, then you don't either! If you want to win the debate, win! Don't wimp out!
You called me a bully, and maybe I am. I have thought a lot about that and am going to get back to you about that. But if you tell me that you can show me the holes in what I believe, then don't do it, are you really any better?
He had posted the below to show me how accurate the bible is with it's description of the earths shape.
Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
This was supposed to convince me the bible correctly describes the shape of the earth. It seems to describe it as a circle. A circle is flat (2 dimensional). It certainly does not describe it as a sphere.
I could look for all the reverences to the earths shape in the bible, but a simple google search would or could do the trick. He made the claim. Look back at his posts.
It wasn't me that talked about holes. That was someone else. There are holes in the bible. A simple google search for bible fallacies might do. I can't find holes in what you believe until you tell me what they are. There are holes in ID. That's why is not being to in science class in the US anymore. It's not science, it's religion, and the US has that separation of church and state for very good reasons. You don't want to go back to the middle ages or the middle east.
You've brought up a mess of points that deserve to be talked about, but for now I'll stick to just one. If you get hung up on the literal meaning of "circle" in Isaiah you have, to some extent, missed the point. The Bible is a book of poetry, even when it's dealing with prosaic subjects. And ancient Hebrew was an especially poetic language. In fact, according to some commentaries I've read, you and hookedhuntress would both be wrong.
You're right, it was someone else who talked about holes and I was trying to respond directly to them. However, you did say that for every 1 verse hh produced you could produce 20 that showed bad science. I don't need a literal 20, but I would like a few in order to know that you know what you're talking about. Telling me to Google is a copout.
For the purposes of this point, I believe that you should be able to back up what you say. Then, I respect you even if I disagree with you.
Okay, clearly you won't show me where the bible says the earth is a sphere as promised. I'm told the bible is scientific (not by you) and when I point out it's flawed I'm told because it's poetry. Poetry I except.
“Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them” (Matthew 4:8)
If the earth was flat that might work.
“The Lord is king. He is clothed wit majesty and strength, The earth is set firmly in place and cannot be moved.” (psalms 93:1)
“tremble before him, all the earth; yea, the world stands firm, never to be moved.”( 1st Chronicles 16:30)
“Say among the nations,”The Lord reigns.” The world is firmly established, it cannot be moved; he will judge the people with equity.”(Psalms 96:10)
I know your going to try to get around these. Clearly they didn't have more knowledge then anyone of their day. I would be convinced if it describe how fast the earth moves around the Sun and then again how fast we move with the sun around our galaxy and again how fast our galaxy is moving. Lets not even get into Einstein's theories.
“And God said,”Let there be light”; and there was light. And God saw that the light was good; and God seperated light from darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.” (Genesis 1:3-5)
Wasn't the Sun created on the forth day. You may say that by (light) he meant enlightenment, but (God separated light from darkness) (Called the light Day) so clearly he was talking about night and day.
You may say that these are just little things, but they are imperfections and the bible is littered with them. Looks like the book was written by humans with only knowledge of his time. Does not to appear to me to be the word of God to me.
Okay, first off, I never promised I could show you where the Bible called the Earth spherical. Do don't quote me on things I didn't say. I did challenge you to come up with the counterpoint Bible verses showing "bad science" in the Bible since you had said you could.
When the Devil took Jesus up on the mountain and showed Him all the kindgdoms of the earth, most theologians (at least that I've read) agree that although, yes, this was literally true, we're not talking about two human beings here. Yes, Jesus is fully man but He is also fully God, and of course Lucifer has never been a human being.
In Deuteronomy 34:1-4 Moses climbs Mount Nebo and God shows him all Israel, "from Gilead to Dan" and "as far as Zoar." Well, human beings can climb that mountain today and there's no way you can see ALL of Israel from there. But God can do it!
Those middle verses, I've never heard anybody claim that was science, but then I'm not actively keeping tabs on these things. If you've come up against that, then I bow to your experiences. But I've always considered them to be poetic expressions of God's might, especially the Psalms.
Yes, the sun and the moon were created on the fourth day. Genesis 1:3-5 has been said to refer to when the earth was young and clouds covered it, and no light could get through.
I don't know. I'm not a scientist, and obviously you can find opinions on both sides. As an armchair theologian, I will say that many, many of the things that people use to show contradiction and imperfection aren't really, if you know the Bible well enough.
Rad,I do not know if you are talking to me or Chris but I did not promise anything either.I answered your questions about the word sphere that I used.
I can't help if you do not want to listen to or pay attention to what I have said.
I can not talk to someone that does not want to listen to or hear what I am saying.
People that lack understanding accuse the bible of being contradictory.
When it is taken out of context and twisted by man then of course it sounds contradictory...but whatever.
I really don't get you Rad..I don't know why you would talk so much against God and the bible but ,Hey if that is what you want to be used for in your life that is your choice.
No amount of factual data, large or small, will ever, “prove,” there is a God to anyone unless they are truly seeking Him.
God will prove Himself to each and every person that takes his or her first step of faith; God tailors the inner, ‘spiritual witness’ that He feels is best suited and unique to each individual, and therefore HE is the ultimate, “proof,” of Himself and His existence.
God loves us all. He gave us free will.so we can choose to love Him or not.. so its our choice to love HIM. HE really does love you..
The only thing in life that I am certain of, is that I know nothing. I don't know if there is a God and I'm fairly certain, that the God that I do know, is the God of my making.
All I can say is that MY God would care for every single one on the planet; and those on other planets, if indeed they do exist. Christians/Muslims/Atheists-or others. And as TH mentioned, the concept of a God comes in all cultures and languages. So NO (!!!), my God would not discriminate.
It's the human law, as well, you know!
Nice topic! Consider what I follow...many Gods and Goddesses that care for all.
The term "God"...is that like just the Christian God?
Do you realize that there are thousands of Gods and Goddesses that do care about ALL?
I would think so, given that a creator loves the creation. No matter how crappy my artwork can be, I always keep it. But I don't necessarily believe in a God/god or Goddess/goddess, to me it's just not that important. If I did believe in such things, they'd always take a back seat to living and loving.
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
So everyone has the opportunity to be God's child. "FREE WILL"
No one is forced to do anything. You can do what you want.
I am immune to the evangelism. How about you MSM? There does not seem to be much useful discussion here, so I will see you in another hub maybe.
What would you call "useful discussion?" It's a serious question, because in another forum I thought you and I were having some decent conversation then you called me arrogant, then you announced that the forum was silly and you left. So does anybody who actually believes in Christ automatically not rate as "useful?" No matter what they believe and why?
''God'' can be applied to all religions in the world, and not only Christianity.
Christ accepts everyone who turns to him. Why do you think he is not accepting of everyone? There are many passages that talk about him loving his people. There are also laws that God has written that we are supposed to abide by. But God is love so he doesn't just care for Christians alone he cares for all of us. We are all made in his image.
Because they are the most psychotic and their god himself being a psychotic can easily identify with them
He does not just care ONLY for Christians. I believe that there is only 1 GOD..
just that he has many names by many cultures. For instance-a pen in enlish is pen in spanish- la pluma in french stylo in italian penna. all of these words are for a prn... God is the same thing- every culture has a supreme being- aka GOD- why can't he have many names Allah God Jehovah Brahma Jade Emperor in Taoism Quetzalcoatl- mayans. So I say God being all powerful... can appear however he wants to whoeverand he kows if he is appearing to Muslims he will look muslim- chinesse he will e chinesse. thou shalt have no other God before me- and the funny part is we dont unlrss you wordhip satan...
Amazing that 'this guy/gal' (you?) would think such a thing, mischeviousme. Of course He would. Tell me that God/Jesus/Holy Spirit isn't an equal opportunity Carer/Saviour!!
Perhaps whoever the people on this thread are referring to as god, would be a bit more responsive in prayer if his/her believers, prayed to him or her by his or her name during prayer... Perhaps the deity of one person is not the deity of another person... Much like the fact that not everyone shares the biological father and mother.
Perhaps the word "god" does not mean anything to one person, whilst the word "god" may be the name of the deity someone else has decided to worship.
Perhaps, but perhaps there is only one God, and no matter what name we chose to call Him, what He reveals about Himself is also extremely important!
He loves you!
Himself? Did "he" reveal "himself" as important, or did someone else?
Does there have to be only one deity, and if so, why?
In the book of Genesis who are the others whom the creator refers to when he looks down at Eden and says, "Let us make them in our image"?
He revealed Himself as important.
Whether or not there "has" to be only one, there is only one God. There are no other "gods."
The Son and the Holy Spirit, of course! Did you really not see that one coming?
But seriously, The Son and The Holy Spirit are fully God and have been from eternity. So yes, when God said, "Let us make them in our image," that's what He meant.
When you were having these conversations with God and what not, did he give you any tangible proof as to his existence? If he did, can you still commit strangers?
I never had (and never claimed to have) "conversations with God" in any manner similar to what you and I have. I've never "heard a voice." I have felt His presence, felt Him telling me things (like sometimes when I would get too carried away in conversations on these forums, He would tell me to cool it because it became all about me and not about Him.)
I have felt the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I don't know how to really describe it. I've never taken drugs or been a heavy drinker, so I don't know of anthing to really compare it to. But it's definitely a unique experience, and one that I've never forgotten!
There have been prayers answered in both big and small ways, and often odd ways, that were just too numerous and too timely. I didn't used to dismiss serendipities, but after a while you have to be pretty determined to not see it in order to not see it.
I'm not sure what you mean by "commit strangers" and don't want to hazard a guess.
Over on the "Do You Believe In Hell?" forum I actually wrote a longer post that answers your question because I had been asked largely the same thing by Emile R and A Thousand Words.
How can you wrap your head around there being only one God, but calling them The Father, Son and Holy Spirit? How can each have it's own purpose, but be one. Seems to me that Catholics prey to angels and Saints as well. Each Saint, they believe, has special powers. You may not believe as the Catholics do, but dividing God up into three and then saying he is only one seems odd to me. Seems like polytheism to me.
"How can you wrap your head around there being only one God, but calling them The Father, Sun and Holy Spirit? How can each have it's own purpose, but be one. Seems to me that Catholics prey to angels and Saints as well. Each Saint, they believe, has special powers. You may not believe as the Catholics do, but dividing God up into three and then saying he is only one seems odd to me. Seems like polytheism to me."
Well, you're certainly not alone. Atheists, Muslims and Jehovah's Witnesses all agree that it sounds like polytheism.
Actually, it just proves my point. God is too big, too different, too hard to understand. It is stated in the OT that "the Lord our God, the Lord is one!" The definitive expression of monotheism in a culture surrounded by pagan polytheism. The New Testament affirms that there is only one God, but Jesus claimed for Himself duties (such as the forgiveness of sin) that God and only God can claim. This was not lost on the Pharisees. So if Jesus claimed He could do things only God could do, but at the same time claimed that he was the Son (even calling God His "father,") then the only explanation is that they must both be God, but one God in more than one person. Pretty much similar for the Spirit.
The Catholics do pray to saints, and although they claim that the saints are simply intermediaries, and have no power to answer prayers in themselves, it still is not Biblical. That, to me, does seem to flirt with polytheism.
It is odd. It's odd to me. But either you take God as He is (to the best of your ability, and it's not always easy,) or you insist that God must conform to human standards, whether ethical or physical. As C.S. Lewis posited in "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe," (using Aslan as the symbol) God is wild and untamed, not someone you can ever feel entirely safe with.
And I don't.
Chris wrote (So if Jesus claimed He could do things only God could do, but at the same time claimed that he was the Son (even calling God His "father,") then the only explanation is that they must both be God, but one God in more than one person.)
Perhaps the only explanation that works for you is the one you conclude is the only explanation. Another explanation is that there are three gods. The Son can't be the father. But this explanation will not fit with your interpretation of the bible so you dismiss it. Perhaps the writers of the bible weren't hoping for critical thinking or weren't directing there writing towards critical thinkers. Just as tele-vangulists direct there manipulation towards the easy victims. You don't need to take advantage of an entire population to be successful, just the ones that are easy marks.
I have to comment you Chris for not just looking for easy marks here in these forums.
"Chris wrote (So if Jesus claimed He could do things only God could do, but at the same time claimed that he was the Son (even calling God His "father,") then the only explanation is that they must both be God, but one God in more than one person.)
Perhaps the only explanation that works for you is the one you conclude is the only explanation."
My experience is that when you accuse someone of simply looking for the easy explanation, deciding that the thing they think works only works for them because they want it to, then you need to watch out. The finger you point at someone else has three brothers pointing back at you. Because it's just as easy for me to say something like, "Your inability to understand that God is not like human beings leads you to keep finding human explanations. Perhaps the only explanation that works for you is the one you conclude is the only explanation."
"Another explanation is that there are three gods."
Yeeessss, but you have to be willing to explore all the ramifications not only of getting there but what the conclusion actually means. If you're saying, "All the writers of the Bible were liars and knew it but just tried to blow smoke with this 'one god' thing to gull the swells," then yeah, a surface reading of the Bible and a conclusion that there must be three gods would be not just logical but inescapable. If you read the whole thing, you need to try to figure out why the whole Bible claimes there is only one God but Jesus claimed equality with Him.
"The Son can't be the father. But this explanation will not fit with your interpretation of the bible so you dismiss it."
On the contrary, it's exactly what I keep saying!
"Perhaps the writers of the bible weren't hoping for critical thinking or weren't directing there writing towards critical thinkers."
Perhaps. Or perhaps the phrases "critical thinking" and "being critical of the Bible" aren't necessarily synonymous. Perhaps, like a scientist who sees a conclusion reached that they don't understand but instead of rejecting what they don't understand study the data until they do understand it, perhaps critical thinking means trying to figure out what you don't understand.
"Just as tele-vangulists direct there manipulation towards the easy victims. You don't need to take advantage of an entire population to be successful, just the ones that are easy marks."
I think I see where you're going with this one. Let's see...
"I have to comment (sic) you Chris for not just looking for easy marks here in these forums."
Ah, the cynicism. Do you really think I'm looking for "marks"? What, you think that I can flatter people like you into giving me your money? Wow. I wish anybody else had that kind of confidence in me. The fact is that I usually enjoy talking to people who disagree with me more than people who agree with me because they force me to examine what I believe and why. Of course, it helps if they know what they believe and why. People who enjoy shouting matches can get the blood pumping but it's all empty calories. And yeah, I'd love to convince someone of the truth of the Bible, but I'm not so arrogant to think that my arguments are in any way overwhelming.
I'm after truth.
I do have to apologies Chris, my last line was supposed to read "I have to commend you Chris for not just looking for easy marks here in these forums." My spell checker must have put a (t) instead of (d). I didn't mean at all to imply you are looking for easy targets. I am sorry if I gave you that impression.
God cares for whoever you want him to care for. Since god is man made, we can pick and choose who's the applein his eye.
and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.
Then Agrippa said to Paul, Do you think that in such a short time you can persuade me to be a Christian?
1 Peter 4:16
However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name.
My mistake. My bible only goes to the end of the four gospels. Figured if the Pope could remove books, so could I. I stand corrected.
Thought you'd like that one. Editing is my DREAM!
If I accept the OT and I accept Jesus as the Messiah which it foretold, and I believe what is written in the four Gospels, am I condemmed if I disregard all others?
Am I guilty of Blasphemy when I disregard those things suposedly written by/about Paul?
Many Christians would say yes, and many more would say AMEN!
I say, ... They really need to think some more about that.
At least you are single-minded, Brenda. Tell me, are you open to new information, or are you totally content with what you have from your christianism? Is your god so small that "he" can only entertain communication with christians?
It's a typical response of indoctrinated individuals, they've been told that the way is narrow and that thinking otherwise, is dangerous. They fear the conseqences handed them, so much so, that all they can do is think singlemindedly... It should be illegal, for if they can ban subliminal messages in movies, they can ban mind control and re-education in churches.
When it comes to my believing that Jesus Is Lord, I am as single-minded as the day is long. I am not open to any other avenue of thought.
If that suits you, feenix, so be it, your choice. But what a narrow, small-minded outlook on life.
Where does the person who believes in some other philosophy fit into your way of thinking? Is that person seen as inferior in your eyes?
If you would expect unconditional love for yourself from your Lord, are you not expected to offer unconditional love to the person who follows Islam, or Buddhism, of Hinduism?
I would see your god as far too small for me to contemplate giving my allegiance to.
Where does it say in the bible that God has unconditional love?
He has great and immense love. He has love, so much love, that John 3:16 describes a love we cannot understand.
But all through the OT we see God has His preferred way that His people come to Him. In the NT we see that Jesus was sacrificed and shed blood for atonement of sin for all people and should not this paramount event be important? Can we just ignore what this Jesus said about one way and to God we must come through Jesus.
God has always had conditions - one of them is that we turn from sinful ways and live in obedience to Him.
All through the bible God says, "If you will do this then i will do that".
The onus has always been on people meeting Gods requirements first.
The only way that unconditional love can be applied is through inference in that God wants all people to come to him as they are, and he will forgive them for whatever they have done. That's love.
But the emphasis upon unconditional in that statement is: as there are no conditions to come to him - just do it... Later you will meet the conditions and love by which He will guide you.
But the truth often is narrow, just as your truth that we Christians are narrow and small minded is automatically limiting.
It's not God who's too small, it's most people's idea of Him (this goes both for Christians and non-Christians.)
Eh, there's no "new" information. And even if there was, it could never be greater than the fact that Christ died for mankind. His sacrifice was done and was perfect and there's no topping that. You want to call that a small thing? Then that's your choice. I don't understand it, but still it's your choice.
Was perfect but it didn't really change the world, it made it worse. It gave the greedy more power, to exploit the innocent minds of a frightened audience.
Brenda, your small view of things is really only for your own small mind. Such narrow-mindedness does the world no good. The same narrow-mindedness serves all the fundamental, radical religious people of whatever persuasion. It brings about discord, ostracism against close friends and family members, domination and bigotry. It leads to wars and selfishness. Quite the opposite of what you say your "Saviour" preached. You are steeped in the Bible. I bet you are under the spell of a pastor in your church; caught up in the accepted understandings which your peers around you, in the same church, preach and accept; and you are afraid to question them for fear of being pushed out and ignored.
Repeatedly I have said to you and others like you in these Hubs, that your personal faith and beliefs are your own, and I support you in that. However, please open your eyes, ears, brain and heart. There is LOTS more new stuff to contemplate and enjoy before you depart this world. Don't drag others into your little hole of thinking.
I had to laugh at one of your lines---you said you bet I'm under the spell of a pastor! LOL. Nothing could be further from the truth. Matter of fact, several pastors don't like my outspokenness when it comes to doctrinal issues or unBiblical interpretations that I've heard and seen from the pulpits or in congregation, and I've spoken out about those. So...eh...it ain't just here in the "secular" world that I speak up. Sometimes anyway. When it really matters.
And at the same time I laughed, I also felt much sadness because a church shouldn't be controversial. It's just really hard to find one that rightly divides the Word in all instances; and I know people are all fallible.
I will follow God "blindly" as some people like to put it. But I do not and will not follow any human being blindly.
Ah, that's good to hear. At least you will be following nothing blindly, so if you run into anything there is nothing to hurt you.
Actually, if I run into something, I'll have to depend on Him to set me straight or pick me back up or defend me in some way. That's one of His attributes----He is the one who can save us from falling.
Giving one's pains to God, could be construde as letting go of attachment. Though there are worldly attachments, such as title and identity, they are the hardest to be free of. We use titles and other language to define our identity, because that's who we think we are.
Correction. You will follow bible blindly and as it is a human compilation, you are following those humans who wrote it, by default.
In effect you are following some humans who were born before you, and just lying when you say you will not follow any human. Oh! the bible is "god inspired"! If so there many so many contradictions and idiotism for an all powerful god, if it is just inspired, there are mistakes so can't know which is correct and which is wrong.
Biggest hurdle, you know god only through bible and all "experiences" are 'confirmation bias'. So you are following humans, thinking its god!!
You've been here for awhile, you know there are no contradictions in the bible, every contradiction has been refuted, debunked, put into proper context and eliminated under the heading "sloppy interpretation."
did you turn a blind eye?
So everyone that reads about darwinism is not following darwin but some author?
Everything people believe ostracizes others. If one is to believe one thing and another doesn't they are on the outside of that belief.
Its not so much the belief that causes the harm but how it is presented.
If we write Jesus is the only way and you react poorly it is not our fault. If we grab you by the throat and yell, Jesus is the way!!!! then it is our fault that you feel "discord, ostracism against close friends and family members, domination and bigotry. It leads to wars and selfishness" - those things.
but to merely say, Jesus is the way, is quite peaceful when you walk into a room and hear that incidentally, like this forum for example, is not our fault how you feel or what you think and neither have we pushed it upon you.
so you are in a restaurant and some christians can be overheard talking among themselves that jesus is the way and you get up and yell "no he is not, how dare you say that, that produces ostracism and bigotry etc..
How dare you blame the christians in that scenario.
Or, you could have a scenario like Kurt Cameron using his bizarre belief structure to ostracize. If you openly state a view that implies an afterlife is exclusive to certain belief structures. And certain groups are outside of the graces of God; you are, by default, attempting to ostracize others.
I do agree though, that any who take the tripe the fundamentalists spread as fact, are deluding themselves into being insulted.
"And certain groups are outside of the graces of God; you are, by default, attempting to ostracize others."
One point I've tried to make repeatedly is that many of us who are conservative Christians didn't CHOOSE to be that way. I know I certainly didn't. I was an agnostic, actually I was quite the nihilist. I was, well, doing things that I certainly wouldn't do now. And I certainly felt judged by the rising Christian Right (I knew people who had buttons that read "The Moral Majority is NEITHER!" and thought that was great.)
Then God reached out to me. That was certainly not in my plans. Now, I don't know if you think of me as a fundie, I pretty much assume most people do even though I don't think of myself as one. But I can tell you that I've learned both from the inside and the outside that most groups judge somebody and they do it harshly. And most groups justify that harshness by citing the harshness they feel from the other group. It's human nature, I think. Whether you agree with someone or not is not the same thing as judging them harshly. I've known gay people, Pagans (self-professed) and atheists who were really nice people and I would count on in a minute if there was an emergency. Ditto the same for some conservative Christians. And I've known Christians who were abrasive, judgemental and bigoted. Same for gay people, pagans and atheists. It's just waaaaayyyy too easy to say that someone who believes differently than you is rude/stupid/bigoted/all of above, even if there are examples of it you can see. But we're not all like that, just like every other group isn't "all like that."
No. You are right. No two people are the same, so it is difficult to label. But the statement is correct. If your belief system assumes that you are in a position to vocally proclaim that some people are outside of the graces of God you are actively choosing to ostracize others. It is your choice, unless it is your argument that God has a ring in your nose?
So you're saying that to disagree with someone IS to judge them harshly? And what is the definition of ostracism, here? If I engage with people who disagree with me, I am not ostracizing. If those same people refuse to have anything to do with me, then they ostracize me. That's not self-pity, that's going by my understanding of the word.
I do not "choose" to say who is outside of God's grace. In fact I have often written that I CANNOT make that choice, it is God's alone. I don't believe that anybody I have interacted with, you or anybody else, is outside of God's grace. If I did, I wouldn't be here right now (although I can think of some who probably wish I weren't!) In fact, at this point I'm not so much proselytizing as just trying to explain the actual thought process. But yes, although you certainly weren't being warm and fuzzy when you wrote it, in a way God does have a "ring through my nose." I have tried to stop being Christian. It's not exactly a life of ease and luxury (if you really understand what the Bible says. Never mind televangelists!) Nor has it ever won me friends. But when God is at work in your life, you can't ignore Him.
it is a habit of people when they feel convicted that they quickly try to justify away the notion that they could be anything else but wrong and ignoring simple logic often and fair play turn the table and try to make the other party feel what they are feeling.
But facts are facts.
Although there is nobody outside of Gods Saving grace there are definitely those who are reaping little of the benefits of Gods general grace.
The ring through the nose is true. We can kick against the goads but God is ever faithful.
I don't expect anyone to ignore anything they deem pertinent to their lives; but let's, at the least, agree to be realistic. Shall we?
The definition of the word ostracize is to exclude someone from a group. The fundamentalist mantra is ' if you don't agree with me, you don't get to go to heaven.' Therefore you have attempted to declare a 'truth' that some will be excluded from a group of people who expect to enjoy a.pleasant afterlife.
Now, please explain to me how that stand doesn't fit the definition of ostracizing others.
We aren't discussing you, particularly. So don't get overly personal. This is the known philosophy of conservatives and fundamentalists. Any who claim the Bible is 'the word of God' and claim women who have abortions are murderers, or homosexuality is wrong.....and myriad other actions deemed 'sins'; you are passing judgement. You are simply attempting to pass the buck and not take responsibility by saying 'God said'.
And then they'll say "it is open to others, they just have accept Christ as their savior", Which basically skirts the issue.
Exactly. They use their belief as a wall of separation so as not to take responsibility. It doesn't matter how unkind their words, all you get as justification is ' God said.' Or, ' I only call you a piece of sh*t because I love you.'
I don't care if they want to be uncaring and unkind, but it would be nice if at least one had the honesty to simply say, ' I hate people and I enjoy judging you.' That would be refreshing.
I had to wipe the tears from my eyes on that one. Great way to call 'em out.
Okay, then here's a question:
Do you ever seek out Christians who don't call non-Christians *that word*? Do you ever ask them what they believe and why? It's easy to center on one group of people (as they do, as well) and single them out and make them the scape-goats for all kinds of sins. Conservative Christians do it, and those who dislike them do it too. And nothing is truer for both sides than that the judgement gets in the way of the truth.
Chris, I enjoy the discussion. But, I don't really seek anyone out in my daily walk through life. It has been my observation that the average person, in the average situation, doesn't openly condemn others on the scale we see either on the internet or in interviews on tv. I think it is because, face to face, they understand it is wrong; or, because they aren't firm enough in their convictions, or maybe they are simply two faced people who smile to your face and talk behind your back. I don't know.
But, I honestly have hope that the dialogue, at some point, will open the eyes of people such as yourself. People who do feel that they care. Who do attempt to think. One of the problems I see is that religion is like any group. Many tend to give an 'Amen' to someone arguing an intolerable and intractable stand. I honestly don't think the person lending support could agree.....I think they see safety in numbers.
I detest the religious being called sheep because I see the conservatives and fundamentalists more as a pack of dogs. Individually, a dog is a fine animal. Put them in a pack and their nature changes. I don't like it when the religious run in packs. It is the behavior patterns of the pack I speak out against.
Actually I agree with a lot of what you just said, although I disagree with your assessment of religion. It was heartening to me to read you write that "religion is like any group" in that most groups do tend to go along with the leaders and most groups forms pack mentalities when large numbers of them get together. I wish it wasn't true for conservative Christians, but it's not less true for other groups.
No, it doesn't skirt the issue at all. The real basic issue is whether God does exist, and whether Jesus is His son, and whether He died for our sins. If the answer is yes, then you need to deal with consequences. If the answer is no, then I'm wasting my time and yours. Which in a very real way brings us back around to whether God is real, and whether He really does make Himself known.
I don't need Jesus to know what God is, nor do I need Mose, Noah or Abraham. God is the word we use to describe the anima, an unknown aspect at the time. We are no closer now to understanding, as we were then.
We are much closer to understanding; we have to be able to gain knowledge and listen to all sides of religions. If we have a discussion about God we should be able to do it with an open-mind. If you are a believer you do need Jesus, he was the one who died for all of our sins. We cannot leave him out.
You need to look again in to The Book of Job; although 3500 years old, it does not only have the best description of God, but also talks about Redeemer - Christ.
I guess that would be the difference between you searching for God and God reaching out to you. When I wasn't a Christian, all this stuff sounded as good to me as anything else. Since God made Himself known, my path has been pretty clear.
Well, then that would be the real difference. Thank you.
As someone who spent half his life being NOT Christian, I do understand what you're saying. My response is the same as it's always been, you're right but you're not. Yeah, it's no secret (even in the Evangelical community, believe it or not!) that there are plenty of conservative Christians who preach about Jesus' love in very unloving ways. Yes, I've been guilty. By God's grace, I'm trying to do better. But the Bible is about how God loves everyone, no matter what they've done or who they've been. So what I'm trying to say is that don't let some people's message get in the way of God's ultimate message. EVERYBODY sins, and as I've written in other forums, it's a tragedy that we Pro-Lifers have allowed (and sometimes encouraged) that whole discussion to get hung up whether the "mothers are murderers." They are human beings, and the babies are human beings, and God loves them both. And those who genuinely try to help them out get targeted.
The buck is not passed. If it was up to me, I would keep my mouth shut and just go along to get along. I think some of the people in this forum who see me as holding myself above them because of my religion would be surprised at how different from them I'm not.
I just can not imagine that I am on top of the evolutionary ladder of the universe.
And all of them other planes of existence in that universe.
There has gotta be a place for me and you somewhere over there.
The answer to this question is nicely answered in story of the prodigal son.
lets rephrase the question....if Christians marketed their creation and version of god, definitely their version would care for them only?
That was not the question
If you want to use that, start another thread.
@aka-dj ok...answer to that question....christian god would care only for christians....they would always have accept jesus and be saved concept....islam would always care about muslims...they would always have "there is no other god than allah and muhammad is his messenger" theme...in same way for jews jesus,muhammad would always be false messiah and jews would be chosen ones...why?....because the people who invented their version where humans and it is no surprise that their god is manifestation of their thinking pattern....
You miss the whole point.
Jesus does not limit His care to the Christians!
It says (He says) that He came to save the LOST. ALL those who are lost.
Not just Jews, or Christians. He was here before there ever were any Christians.
The way to become a Christian is to believe in, and follow Jesus Christ, and His teachings.
@aka-dj and u miss the point...Muhammad too claimed that he came for entire humanity...point here is not jesus or muhammad...point is human psychology ....writers,marketers who promoted those ideology....
there are 400 religions which itself shows something...most religion barring ancient ones claims their path is only path , their super hero is only way, accept it and get something unseen ,unproven called afterlife which is eternal!!!!!!!!...point is not who super hero is....point is biggest super hero of them all and that is human brain which invented these super heros....in end it is humans....religion only confirms that...
What happens if I don't? Damnation? Hellfire? Is that how loving your God is? I think I'll have a God lite please?
@mis god needs to have fun...god existence is meaning less...to add meaning to its existence god created universe.....then earth , humans...now having humans in heaven can be boring...how much flattery one can consume...so create hell , create situations where humans fall into trap , then hold them to account and burn them in hell fire....god needs excitement too...
You can have (any) god you please.
Have none, if you like.
If there is a God, who will judge His creation, I hope you fare well.
If not, who cares? No worries.
The answer is "no." The Christian God doesn't care only for Christians and Christians don't care only for Christians. But Christianity does make certain truth claims that many people don't care for and therefor they don't feel like God cares for them. And it's true that many Christians behave in an uncaring way. But not all. And not Jesus.
Then, by your own words that Jesus is NOT behaving in an uncaring way would only show that it is you who either don't understand His ways or you do understand His ways and that they are uncaring. Which is it?
Um, if I knew what you were talking about, I would probably at this point say (again!) that every time you act like a real human being it's just a set-up for your usual tirades.
But, as a favor to you, if you can clarify that question I'll answer it.
i love this topic and i will say i grew up thinking "god" was the only source of man kind. i was taught to believe in him and that all other religions where wrong and evil. But now in my adult hood i have come to realize that my experiance with all of this slowly diminished simply because i saw how people really where out side of the church it made me sick to see someone scream praise god and amen and what not then the instint they stepped outside called there unemployed son a dead beat son of a B***h and you know what at that moment i did not want to be associated with and organized religeion. i no longer belive in what i was taught because of what i have seen and experianced and i dont regret my decision in doing so. i feel that christians are forced into the religeion by pressure to please others ,and yes im going to say this but i feel people do it so they are not talked about and arent the center of attention of the community!!! i have seen many people spend an obscene amount of money just to look "GOOD" in the church and to be praised by ministers for contribution to the church funds i dont hate god nor do i judge people who choose to believe i just choose to live my life with out "him" in it .
Not having grown up in the church, I always wonder about people. My wife did grow up in the church, so she's seen a lot of the stuff you talked about. But God is real! I know, I've heard Him and seen Him in my life. And no, I don't fit any of that. I've been guilty of falling down many times, but He is real and He definitely is at work!
i think we all we born to make our own choices and well i think people should not judge others for what they believe in or dont believe in i think people get a kick out of striking people down who dont believe and well the way i see it your no better for your actions towards some one ive seen some nasty things and it breaks my heart because i know if there was a god he would be dissapointed in what he was he was looking at i do think there is something out there i just dont know what but im sure it wouldnt want us to be actiong the way we are ive seen things too my daughter is sick and she is 4 months old still hospitalized and ive seen her go thru some nasty surgeries and what not and she pulls thru like nothing ever happend so is it god? something else? or nothing at all the point is we cant be sure whats out there we just have to choose what we think it could be
My wife is in Stage IV cancer and I don't know if she'll live to next week. Our faith in God grows stronger every day. He has made Himself known. I will pray for your daughter, though, because I do know it's tough. I pray everything turns out well.
If you wife is very sick like that there is a cure out there. It is called intravenous vitamin C. A heart seacialist wrote a book about it and it is called "Primal Panacea". His name is Dr. Thomas E. Levy.He says It can protect healthy cells while simultaneously and selecively causing rapid cell death in cancer cells. The Vit C drips saved many people now including a 4 yr. old girl of a bite by a Highland Moccasin venemous snake!!!!! I have had them for other health problems and they work.
God does exist .... he loves all .... Christians are few of his children whom he love .... he loves all and treats everyone equal ..... Whether we treat him equal or not .... we people have divided God in to religions ..... and everyone trying to make their religion superior ....
God does care. But some Christians have a chip on their shoulders.
This morning I read a passage in the Book of Deuteronomy found in the Hebrew and Christian Bible. In the passage God declared that he is not only the God of the Hebrews and (Christians), but also the God of the alien. AEvans is right. God does not merely care for Christians alone, but everyone in the world. My daughter has a Bible in which she personally highlighted all the verses in the Bible that talk about how much God loves the peoples of all nations. She found such references throughout the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures. God joyfully invites all peoples to come to him through the work of his Son Jesus on the cross.
The latter contradicts the former by imposing conditions.
I don't understand how?
As if to say ; I have cooked a great meal ; come and partake.
I guess you are saying, "come and partake" is a condition and you refuse to eat under any condition ?
I would say, No hard feelings on my part; but rather than to surcome to Your condition, I will feed what I wanted you to have to the dogs,
I love them too.
No, the condition is "through the work of his Son Jesus on the cross."
Is this your greatest problem.
Is it the Christian and Muslim concept of God which you rebel?
Or is it any form of higher power that you are batteling?
I battle for the idea that it doesn't matter, God is something that is increasingly difficult to explain. We know how we feel, we just lack the communication skills needed to explain it.
... So we came up with magical and glorified explanations. We had to have something to say around the fire, what better than stories.
yes I know,
I was just trying to understand aTM a little better.
Sometimes he says things that I "might" agree with what he writes on page, if I thought he knew what he was aiming his guns at.
Sometimes I agree completely with what he said except I'm thinking it about him while he is pointing at me.
kinda like being all dressed up and with no place to go.
edit .. kinda like somebody peed in his cornflakes, and he thinks everyone did it. LOL
No Jerami, you will never understand as long as you keep starting from the false premise that YOUR God exists, if anyone's cornflakes had been peed into.
Understanding is not really in your lexicon, is it, Jerami.
Rebelling against gods? Battling higher powers?
Not at all. God's love has no conditions. It's whether He takes you into His house that has a condition, and that condition is that you're actually willing to come in. But if you aren't, He still loves you.
Yeah, you contradict yourself all the time!
But, I've learned you can lead a horse to water...
Actually the question is, "how much do we know about God?" Are the popular views about God really the truth? Isn't there any truth beyond what we think we know?
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
God loves us all.He gives everyone an opportunity to love Him back.The individual makes the choice to accept or reject Him.
If you accept God then you are His child.If you reject God then you are making the choice to NOT be His child and that is your freewill.
You can still be God's child if you choose to be but He is not going to force you to be.
Children born into a family is something completely different.You are comparing apples and oranges.
People do not get to choose what family they are born into..but people do get to choose to have God as their Father or not.
It would be quite foolish to choose God as another father considering one is never treated as His child in any way shape or form as one is treated by their real father who loves his children unconditionally.
Gods are dictators who make demands of love, obedience and worship.
I don't know about these gods that you speak of.I can only speak of the God that I follow.
If a child moves away from it's father and does not want to talk to him any more or have anything to do with him,he still loves the child and tries to have a relationship with the child but the father can not make the child have a relationship with him if it does not want to.
The God I follow does not demand me to do anything.I am always given the choice to love,obey or worship.
It's the way they'd like it to be, that their answer is the right one. But who is right? You? Me? Anyone else?
It is testament to the individual subjectivity of the believer. "I'm right because you're wrong and that's all there is"... This a ludacris way to go about it, damning all that are wrong on opinion alone. If God loved one child, why would hate the next? It just doesn't make any sense, not when love and fareness are preached, only on the advent of acceptance. In other words... It sounds selfish and stupid.
I'm not calling the religious stupid, just the behavior inclusive of the doctrine.
people do such things because they want to and they might be getting some relief from their pains. People who dosen't have anyone to share their feelings can have the help of God.
Are we talking about the Christian God of the bible or some other eastern spiritualistic religion and or god?
I think you are mixing totally different belief systems here with this spirit/mind stuff.
You start forum topics about Christianity and about the christian God and then veer off topic into mysticism.
You have every right to post what you like but why not just go ahead and post about your own religious beliefs instead using Christianity as a guise to inseminate your non-Christian beliefs.
Christianity is about the teachings of Jesus Christ and the bible.
It is not about spiritualism or mysticism those are from another belief that are not Christianity,you can't mix them,they are not the same.
You can't mix all these beliefs together and have it make any sense because it won't.
Christianity is Christianity.
Hinduism is Hinduism.
Buddhism is Buddhism.
Judaism is Judaism.
They are not the same.
God cares for everyone and expects His followers to care for everyone too.
Would you care for a renunciant? Would you care for a "satanist"? If the followers of christ love the world, they should remove the words heathen and blasphemer.
Just because someone speaks harsh words - hopefully those words are applicable and true - it does not mean that there is not love anywhere around, either in that person who speaks or in the motive behind saying those words.
Someone could say "you are an anti-christ and a satan". But those are only words and if the other person says "yes you are right" the love behind those words will quickly be seen by way of an explanation as to how the person is being that way which may lead to open discussion with hopefully a cheery ending, BUT if those words only bring up an adamant and negative response in the recipient then the love behind the words will not be seen as readily, although perseverance and a soft attitude should prevail.
I recall telling earnest at one time along that similar avenue that he was only here to destroy and ruin, then i said in the same sentence, If he were to come to christ i would probably be his best brother.
Often times a parent has to do and say things that are harsh or stern with their child, in my day my father gave me the strap when he thought i deserved it - for low grades in a certain subject or late for curfew but did he not love me? How was i to judge that because i got the strap at home my parents did this without love?
As i have said before love wears many hats and will do some drastic things in love.
So just because a christian tells a person off for being whatever, does not mean they don't love you, albeit the hugs and handshakes are more readily given when in agreement. The spirit of love of a christian flows much deeper than just the surface. In many unlikely areas we show love because it is there, in us, and when we reprove people for wrongness it does not mean our love has gone out the window.
If troubled man were to repent and come to christ do you think the christians in this forum would reject him? in no way, he would be accepted readily and cheered on and supported.
There are heathens and there are blasphemers and this is just the way it is.
Christians taste better sittin' on a Ritz with some cheese and wine.
I agree that we can get hung up on the literal meaning of words.
Speaking of ancient Hebrew they did not even have a word for sphere.
Depending on how a person interprets it.I could be wrong but scripture interprets scripture that is what I tend to go by.
I don't have a problem being corrected if I am wrong.I don't want to have someone believe the wrong thing..I would be doing more harm than good..and I don't want to do that.
I believe it was you who went on and on about how perfect the science of the bible is. You showed the example of the bible describing the shape of the earth. I pointed out that it did so incorrectly and then you tell me I get hung up on words. Circle, sphere whatever you say. They didn't have a word for sphere you say. I asked for some or any evidence that suggested that the writers of the bible had knowledge ahead of their time. I just want to see something that is concrete. I don't mean to be insulting, but if your wrong you should be able to admit it. If you can't find something concrete, don't say you can because you just set yourself up. If you come back and show me something concrete, I'll say I was wrong.
Interpretation of scripture - there are those who want to believe, so there interpretation will be different than someone who is critical. If one spends to much time with like minded people they start to believe the there interpretation is the correct one. Think Critically.
I was not even talking to you Rad and you insist on interjecting yourself into my conversation with someone else.
Again you insist on putting words into what I wrote that I did not say.
I have already finished my conversation with you but you can't seem to just get over it and move on.
You have not proven that I am wrong in anything that I say..nor can you.
Simply just because you say I am wrong does not mean that I am wrong.
You continue to beat a dead horse...have fun with that.
I have shown were they had knowledge ahead of their time...just because they did not use the terms that we use TODAY does not make it wrong..just because you say it is wrong does not make it wrong.
You're wrong nanny,nanny boo boo is not proving that someone is wrong.
There you go again, telling me when or what I can say. Telling me not to interject. Like that's not what you do.
You claim to have showed me that the writer of the bible had knowledge ahead of there time. But I haven't seen anything yet. And yes I get hung up on the language. Look, a circle is a circle, a sphere is a sphere.
It's not right just because you say so.
I know this conversation must bother you. I'll leave you alone, but not because you say so. I don't like being bullied.
Hi rad man. I could be wrong, but from what I've read there was no word for sphere in the ancient Hebrew language. Circle had to suffice if you were speaking of a spherical object.
That may be true, or not; but I think that is one of the primary problems when discussing Christian scriptures. Translating from one language into another is a sometimes tricky business. Even the place the translator chooses to set a comma gives rise to another sect; because it changes the meaning drastically. People get caught up in arguing the little details when what the writer intended to say was lost in antiquity.
Look all I'm asking for is evidence that the bible was written by God and not people. Not something you have to read into. I've sited scripture that shows they didn't have any knowledge that wasn't of the time or todays time. Does it say the earth revolves around the sun? Does it describe the diameter of the earth. Because if it did, you'd have something.
Just show me something.
There are more verses in the Book of Job which are new to our present scientific level of knowledge. One of them relates to foundation sockets in Job 38:6; an odd word (Hebrew) ‘adaneyah is used for “foundations” which is transliterated as Eden.
This word is used for the sockets holding up the staves in the tabernacle (Ex. 26:19). It is used this manner a total of 52 times. Then it is used for the “sockets of the ideal king in Songs (5:15).
The only place in Scripture where it is used for “foundation sockets” is in Job Ch. 38:6.
The Alaska earthquake struck on Good Friday of 1964. Through the use of more than 200 seismographs operating worldwide using push waves and shock waves, scientists determined that foundation rock of earth is mantle rock. Surprisingly it was learned that underneath the oceans these mantle rock extends down for 2 – 5 miles but underneath each of the continents it extends downward 300 miles, truly providing a socket for each of the seven continents.
This statement made over 3500 years ago in the Book of Job was proved accurate.
Will this satisfy you?
Rad, this is where a theologian might actually be helpful. People who believe that the Bible was written by God (and here I'm talking about people who know the Bible really well and teach it to others,) don't generally talk that way. Yes, there are verses in the Bible that some people (even scientists) point to as showing scientific knowledge not commonly known at the time. But your reaction to those verses is actually fairly typical of a lot of skeptics. And although I personally feel that Sag 2012 has a good point, I suspect you won't agree.
EmileR also made a good point, one that I alluded to in an earlier post. A lot of Greek and especially a lot of Hebrew doesn't translate directly into English. It just doesn't. The Hebrew word translated "circle" in Isaiah (חוּג, chug) is actually thought to refer to what we would call a compass, an instrument that draws a circle. It's a poetic device to talk about God's majesty and power.
People who believe and teach that God "wrote" the Bible teach that God used the hands of individual men, without overruling their individual styles or personalities, to write books that differed from each other, sometimes by hundreds of miles and thousands of years, that were still remarkably in sync. If you're willing to put in the time and open yourself to the possibility, most people find that to be true. But a surface reading of the Bible, or a reading that depends on commentaries from people who have already declared the Bible to be Uninspired, won't open the possibility. And looking for modern language in ancient writings is too easy for the skeptics to dismiss. It becomes the functional equivalent of demanding a burning bush and declaring God a fairy tale when He refuses to produce one for you.
If you really want to see God, you will. He has promised.
Well, first. I'm agnostic so I'm not the person best qualified to argue in favor of a hand of god book. However, I don't entirely negate the possibility that God might exist.
Apples and kumquats. Science and religion. Two explanations for the cosmos. One, written to speak to a primitive and nomadic people. One, used to help us have the most cutting edge knowledge available and built steadily through research of the physical world. One spoon fed, one available for those willing to study it.
Both of these are separated by thousands of years. You tell me. If God exists and we had never heard of the concept, until now....how many volumes would it take to give us all the information we could absorb and answer all of the questions that came to mind? A lot.
If I were a deity looking for the perfect window of opportunity to make my presence known...I'd say that nomadic people was the better choice. I would rather be left to wonder if God exists and discover the universe on my own, then be given the information on a silver platter.
Ah yes but, my point is if God did right the book then he would have put specific information for people of all time. Why not explain quantum physics? I wouldn't have meant anything to people 1000 years ago, but It would have made me a believer. People try to read science into the bible, but it doesn't work. We need to keep them apart. There is no science in the bible only poetry. A God would have gotten it perfect. He would have know we would be able to check in a few thousand years. The writer simply didn't know the world revolves around the Sun and the Sun revolves around the centre of our Galaxy and were all whizzing through space held down by gravity that only Einstein seemed to understand.
So, you think if God had handed Moses a quantum physics textbook he would have carried it back down the mountain? And all the years the text says that Israel turned their backs on God, they would have worried about keeping up with a quantum physics text book? What's up with that? Do you believe in miracles?
Come on, you know I was not talking about the ten commandments. No I don't believe in miracles. Hospitals are littered with all kinds of people from every faith wondering what they did wrong. Do you think Christians get a pass on cancer?
A pass on cancer? Heck no. I know you weren't speaking of the ten commandments, but the point I was making is information had to be seen as pertinent to those responsible for safeguarding it. Of everything I raise an eyebrow at, the lack of scientific information has never been one of them. Just because the religious want to pretend that scientific information is there doesn't make it so. But, conversely, the lack of scientific information does not necessarily mean the book doesn't somehow contain bits of information offered from another plane. I don't think it is possible to prove anything. Opinions on both sides are formed on faith in our own judgement.
I agree with you Emile, however it bothers me when they (some) make the claim that most science as we know it is incorrect because it does jive with the bible. I'm just trying to get someone to show me what they claim. I see nothing absolute. I see poetry. I think that if Genesis was in line what we know today it would help. All those justification are disturbing. I think the shape of the or it's size could have and would have been described properly if it was written by god with his supposed knowledge. Things like (well they didn't have a word for sphere and circle really meant sphere) is silly. Even with my limited vocabulary I could describe the earth as a perfectly smooth rock. I don't know what the 4 corners of the earth are, but I bet someone can justify that as well.
I will say, the cool thing about much of the text is that you can look at it in an infinite number of ways. I see evolution in the first chapter of Genesis, when I view it from the right angle. I see the young earth theory from another. Anyone can see whatever they want in it. It's virtually impossible to definitively negate the text for this reason alone.
You, of course, are poo pooing my post at this point, but the text has been interpreted by ancient man, by their understanding of the world; the ancient church at another time by theirs; the medieval church and now by 30,000 different sects and every individual curious enough to read it and find a fit. Has anyone interpreted it correctly? Will we ever reach a point where the cosmological view is so far removed from our reality that no one can see a fit? I don't think so, which makes me wonder sometimes if that isn't a miracle in itself.
I'm sorry if it looks like I'm "poo pooing" your posts. I just find you more interesting, I guess than those that just quote scripture and think that that is enough to win a argument. They can't see beyond the words. You can. No more Poo Pooing.
"...can't see beyond the words...": Those words instruct us to continually renew our minds by the words of scripture thru Christ Jesus. God never change, only people's understanding of God...mostly by the Word of God.
All other matters are between you and God. If you don't believe that God exist, that's on you solely.
There you go again telling stuff about your God you have no way of knowing. You have no idea if God changes.
"I guess than those that just quote scripture and think that that is enough to win a argument. They can't see beyond the words."
Here again is where a knowledge of theology is important. The reason that Christians quote Scripture is because Scripture is inspired. Yeah, I know the arguments sound circular to people who don't believe. But there are other reasons that we believe it to be Inspired, including what I've already said about books that were written thousands of years and hundreds of miles apart being so in sync.
Both sides make the too easy mistake of dismissing the thought processes of the other side. God didn't explain quantum physics to nomadic shepherds because they didn't need it. He did explain the consequences of not following Him because they did. And yet, even with seeing all those miracles, they turned away time after time. And human beings have been the same way ever since. I know I have.
Thanks for trying Chris. However the gospels (if those are the books you are referring to) were not written at the same time. 50 years at least separated them. They are not identical and the stories of miracles become more pronounced the later they were written. If if could be proven that all were written at the same time in different parts of the world and they were identical, you'd have something. It's simply not the case.
God didn't have to explain quantum physics to nomadic shepherd. But somewhere in those 4 version could have been a reference to the exact shape and size of the earth. What stars are? The expanding universe. The reason none of those things are mentioned is because the writers at the time had no knowledge other than what was know at the time. Wishful thinking does not make it so.
It is also possible that he was not followed because no miracles occurred. If god came down today and showed himself and showed me miracles. I'd believe and most would. But I'm not following those televangelists who want my money and claim to heal the sick.
"If if could be proven that all were written at the same time in different parts of the world and they were identical, you'd have something. "
True, what you'd have is classic case of witness corroboration and unbelievable testimony based upon the obvious coaching and collaboration of the witnesses. Don't you ever watch Law and Order?
Seriously, if you want to subject the Gospels to classic rules of evidence, then the fact that they were written by four different men, sometimes decades apart, and in specific response to different criteria only strengthens the case of their authenticity. If God had actually seen fit to, say, explain the composition of stars to First Century Jews, then it might convince you (and I am far from convinced that it would,) but most thinking people would claim it was just more Erich von Daniken stuff. You wishing that God had provided proof positive in the book is not a rock solid reason to reject it.
And no, if God came down today and showed Himself and His miracles, most would not believe. Or perhaps more to the point, a lot of people might believe, but they wouldn't change the way they live. You've read the Bible, so that should not be a surprise. People in ancient Israel saw miracles, yet they ran after other "gods." People saw Jesus perform miracles, yet they didn't believe Him (some even claimed He was from the devil, the "sin that will not be forgiven.")
I go back to my statement that if you want something specific from the Bible and won't settle for "less," then you miss everything that is there. And a little life experience and knowledge of world and Biblical history only firms my conviction that even a burning bush wouldn't sway most people.
And please, don't even bring up those tools of the devil on tv. Most of them (the ones that want your money or claim that God practically owes you a healing or "your best life now,") are God's judgement on America and I hold them in more contempt than you do.
Chris, this difference from you and me.
You want to believe so you look over the shortcomings.
I want to believe but the shortcomings and the lack of evidence has persuaded me that God is man made. I don't feel I'm missing out on anything, I feel it is you that is missing out on reality.
"You want to believe so you look over the shortcomings."
Have you truly not paid attention to what I've written?
My wife is in Stage IV cancer.
My daughter is severely autistic.
What I want to do is keep to myself and wonder why things are the way they are.
God won't let me.
And no, let me repeat NO, man-made "god" I've ever read about is like my God.
I don't think you do think you're missing out. But you don't know what I know. I'm not stupid, I know how most people in these forums view me, even the ones who (more or less) like me. And I'm not the sort of person who actively tries to get people cheesed off at him.
The question is not what I'm missing out on, but what I've gained.
If that's what you believe man, ok. Read further, however, if you wish to know my take on it.
I was watching something moments ago. It was about a girl who ran away from a fundamentalist mormon sect that broke away from the Official Mormon Church. Her "husband" had 5 other wives. She hated it there. She was chosen to marry him when she was 16. He raped her multiple times and she had 2 children by him. When explaining what was going through her mind, how she dealt with it, she said that one day (while he was raping her) She closed her eyes and said to herself "sometimes you have to accept that this is just how it is."
That is what we humans do to survive.
We typically find something to hold on to. We accept unfair, unjust circumstances and find someway to explain it as being ok. It'll work out for the good, somehow. Etc., etc. We see the "positives" in life, because that it helps us to really live. And with some people, the bad's are so bad, that suicide seems like the only way out, but for many the necessity to survive goes into overdrive. I believe that there is a deep part of us, a survival mechanism, if you will, that we convince ourselves is God. (This is a theory. A man wrote a piece called the God Issue that I think may give some more evidence towards this, but I haven't had the opportunity to read it yet, myself) Anyway, our whole perspective on everything changes once we "accept" that there is a God. We read scriptures and because they sound good and like "common sense" (i.e. they resonate with us (why there are so many religions out there)) we believe them to be truth. We even feel this voice inside of us, encouraging us. We get full of warm feelings, awe even, unbounded thankfulness. We feel God has revealed Himself to us in some form or fashion. We believe unexplainable things that happened can ONLY be explained by God, when this is in fact untrue. God is simply ONE possibility. Not the only one. But because you've become so accustomed to definitions, labels, and etc., you cannot accept that some things don't have a reason so easily explained as God did it.
You feel as though God has "revealed" HImself to you. I doubt that He really did, but I know how convincing that can be. I was convinced for 6 years, which might not be much to some, but I was very "certain" of God's existence, and that Jesus loved me, and that I was living for Him, and that the Holy Spirit spoke to me, etc. If you want to keep believing man, that's fine. But you have to accept that everyone doesn't need to believe what you believe, or hold onto what you hold onto in order to survive, and that to try to cause doubt in other people who are perfectly happy without your God should be a crime. Because at the end of the day, the question that you like to ask other people, that you asked me even, "what if?"
What if you, Chris Neal, are wrong?
Is that possible?
What if there is no God?
Or if there is, what if it's not the God you've been following?
What if there is no Hell?
And if there is, what if you went there because YOU were believing the wrong thing?
You came to what you deemed to be a logical conclusion, ( implied by you having stated that God is in plain sight and that people just "refuse" to accept this), but what if YOUR conclusion was wrong?
To you things add up.
To you, the Christian God makes sense.
To me, He doesn't. And many others.
Like that little girl who your "God" ignored.
Very clever. I wish I wrote that. I often think that much of the American public gets duped into thinking that vote for the Republicans is a vote for Christianity. On one hand they are against gay rights and abortion, but on the other they are not what Jesus preached (help the poor and sick). You just never no if you are being duped by evil or goodness.
I have paid attention to what you write and I have compassion. I wish I could take your pain away. Life is unfair, to that there is no question. I'm sure your intelligent, you are certainly articulate. If your believe in God get you through these hard times, I salute you and wish you the best. But please keep in mind we can't both be right. It was not an insult that I said you look over the shortcoming. I was talking about the flaws in the bible and a lack of compassion in nature. I have seen my fair share of cancer. If I had my way teenagers would have to take a tour of a hospital cancer ward to graduate high school. Good Luck and I'm send all of my positive energy your way.
Ah, at the risk of starting a further argument, it sounds like what you want is the kind of stuff that Eric Von Daniken (I'm sure I misspelled his name) used to put in his books to "prove" that ancient Mayan culture was actually based on space aliens.
I think my point about functional equivalence still holds. If you spend your time looking for exactly what you want, and are unwilling to accept anything "less," then you miss what He has put in there. And that's sad.
While that is great sentiment, many people would like it on a silver platter, especially if there might be a place like Hell involved.
Sure, if hell were real. But, I consider the whole march of religion through history evidence enough that, if God exists, hell isn't real. If our eternal soul hinged on a choice, we'd be given solid evidence. If that God is good. Of course, if it is real with such lousy evidence....would you want to spend eternity with an entity who set it up that way?
I agree with everything you just said, and I certainly wouldn't want to have "everlasting life," but if I ever did, it wouldn't be with any god that's been introduced as of yet. That I've come across, at least.
Okay, but what if
A) We have eternal life whether we want it or not?
B) We're going to spend it someplace, and it's either going to be with God or apart from Him?
C) He's already made clear that the second choice is going to be more miserable than you can possibly imagine?
Would whether you really wanted eternal life mean quite as much if you had it whether you wanted it or not?
Philosophical questions, true, since you've made clear that you don't believe Jesus is God the Son, but what would the honest answer to those questions be?
That's narrow minded. Even if everlasting life were a reality, nothing dictates that it would be based on your delusional beliefs. Your concept of everlasting life is an extremely miserable nightmare.
Of course it's based entirely upon fear.
Unless it's not, and if you've experienced the presence of God, then it's based on both fear and love.
Yours is pretty much the answer I expected. I mean, why answer the actual question when you can simply insult the asker and feel superior, n'est ce pas?
I honestly think that God is less concerned with what mankind thinks on a cosmic level than how we interact with others on an earthly level. I honestly think that religious choice plays no role in where you are placed on the naughty or nice list. And I honestly believe that if God exists then everyone will come to a clear understanding on cosmic issues when the time is appropriate and no one will be penalized for using their brain and coming to logical conclusions in the absence of clear cosmic answers.
That's actually pretty good. Of course, if there is a God, He will penalize you for coming to the "logical conclusion" that He doesn't exist when He has made it so clear that He does.
Obviously, I don't subscribe to Universalism. But you do state your case better than most, and I do enjoy reading your comments because they make me think, and you're also a pretty nice guy. I do agree with a lot of what you say, although obviously not all.
It is your opinion that the existence of a God is clear. To a little girl being abused everyday praying for God to make it stop, and yet it doesn't stop, is more evidence to her that there isn't one. It's hard to stop and smell the roses when a man forces himself on you everyday.
"You weren't talking to me, but I'm interested. How did God reveal himself?"
I debated whether to say this in a post or a Hub. The Hub would allow me the luxury of exploring things more fully, but would also stick my name out there and probably cement my future unemployability.
When I was 22 I accepted a dare from someone who wanted me to prove how open minded I was. I attended church. After going a few times, I felt something, though I didn't know what it was at the time. I later realized it was God telling me to listen to Him. Now, I didn't hear a voice, no audible words, but I did feel something.
A couple of years later, I was praying and reading and felt the Holy Spirit for the first time. I don't know how to explain it to you if you've never experienced it, even other Christians look at you funny if they've never felt it. It happened to me one more time. It was a definite experience and unlike anything else I've ever had. During the period I have alluded to when I tried to stop being a Christian, I just could not ever forget those times. It's been a long time since I've had that experience, but it's imprinted on me.
My wife heard God say that our son would be Adam and our daughter would be Ruth. And they are.
God told my wife she had conceived before anyone knew it, though she was feeling something in her uterus before she should have been.
Our second son had us both doubting what my wife had heard when he was born, and we struggled with a name for him. Then my wife and I both came up with the same name separately, and it means "gift from God."
We needed new flooring. My wife prayed for it. She heard God tell her it would get worse before it would get better but we would have the flooring. Our bathroom exploded. We spent a month in a hotel but we got new flooring.
This is a short sampling. I'm not dumb enough to think that somebody who doesn't believe in God is going to read all this and then slap their forhead and go, "Of course! How could I have been so blind?" But the frequency and timing of these things is something that I simply can't explain any other way. If my wife heard voices and nothing ever happened that they said, or the voice said to do negative things (which it never does,) then I might think differently. But God is good.
My wife does have Stage IV cancer. I don't know why. But I pray to God for healing. Does He always heal? No, and for different reasons different times. But sometimes He does. My wife can walk. That's no big deal unless you consider that her right tendon has been severed decades ago and various times when she's needed x-rays of her legs doctors have looked at them and pronounced that she can't walk, even though she can. That's not a long-ago story of some family member who isn't around to verify. That's really happened to my wife.
So, even though I'm sure most of the people who read these posts probably think I'm borderline psychotic, I'm not. And I used to live in New York City, I've seen people who genuiney have broken with reality (remind me to tell you sometime about when I was riding the subway, having a conversation with a very nice man who casually dropped into the conversation about how he didn't need his meds anymore...)
And if Thousand Words reads this, that is also why I keep saying it's not just "my opinion" about the existence of God. I didn't grow up in a Christian family. Before the age of 22 I never experienced anything that would make me think there was "something out there," much less God. Most of my blood relatives think I'm a little squirelly because they can't see what I believe or why I should believe it. I didn't live the kind of life that would lend itself to sudden conversion. And I most certainly didn't fall under the spell of some teacher or other. I lived in NYC, where (occasionally) pretty girls walk up to guys and invited them to the local Moony coffee shop (I almost went, too.) If that was all it took, I'd be a Scientologist today, not a Christian and certainly not an evangelical.
Anyway, Emile, that's my story. Hope it's not too long...
Maybe it was a little long ...but interesting. It proves my point, somewhat (to me). It doesn't appear as if you've ever been given information that would lead you to believe your way is the one true way to God. He's there for comfort, guidance and emotional security. He hasn't changed events in your favor, he has imparted knowledge in some instances and given your wife the courage to believe she can do things others believe are impossible in others. He isn't pushing any agenda. You have come to believe in the manner you have because you think his presence validates your beliefs. Where as I think maybe his presence may be a simple fact.
I suppose the day will come when a believer tells me the Almighty Himself appeared before them and made some inane comment about them being right in every one of their thoughts and everyone is headed for hell that they deem unworthy...but so far, when people speak honestly, I'm not hearing anything like that.
Dearest Chris-an intellectual Christian? What an amazing combination! Beautiful. I recently-15 days ago-had Total Hip Replacement surgery and found my personal Christ and God soon after. My thread/post is as such about the surgical and post-op ordeal:
Since at the time of the surgery I was agnostic, or actually one that believed in God but not in the concept of Christ (because it did not seem an intellectually sound argument), I became slowly aware that the Christ was indeed real. Jesus is real. As you intimated, the Holy Spirit is a precious and essential part of the Trinity and I have ALWAYS felt its presence. Even when full of doubt. The Spirit is with me/has been with me, throughout my life-I even wear earrings of doves-my symbol for the H.S.
It seems we are 'twins' in faith, Chris.
Thanks for the comment.
Thanks for sharing your story with us, Chris. I agree with Emile to an extent. And I've certainly had my own experiences. I felt the "Holy Spirit" often, actually. Or at least what I believed to be the Holy Spirit. (It doesn't have to have that name, and I still have access to it, though I'm not a Christian, and I really wouldn't know what to call it)
It's not that I don't believe in the possibility of God, Chris. I just don't believe that it is the Christian God, or even a Western idea of what "God" is. Many people have many different experiences that convince them that their God or belief system is the right one, but then there is all this Division and clashing. People stuff doctrine down their own throats, and listen other folks who shove their own views at them (not always views with others interests in mind). They read versions of Bibles(and other Holy books) and convince themselves of the truth within, and confuse "God'"s voice with prejudice and judgement. Those who could have been having real spiritual experiences, connections within themselves, and maybe through something Transcendental, become drones spouting out words that cut and harm, but are supposedly meant for good. We follow blindly what our doctrines teach us are "right" or "wrong," even if we don't agree or don't understand. (The Golden Rule itself, if followed and if one has a healthy sense of self, would make us reconsider half of the things that we do.)
It makes something that could have been Real into something Artificial, full of hate, ignorance, and a selfish kind of love.
That's what I lost interest in. And I no longer wanted to depend on that feeling I have, and have become a more empathetic, understanding, not as easy to offend, independent, free thinking, open to new ideas person because of it. For the first time, I actually like who I am, without anyone else having to tell me that I have worth. Not because I am special. Just because I am. Just because anything that has life, whether a person, animal, or plant even, has worth. Everything is not simply meant for our own personal gain or use, to do exactly as we want, and for us to be in "control" or have "dominion."
I think those "God" experiences might be there for people who need them. I need them no longer. Maybe a survival mechanism, maybe more something actually transcendent, but not how most Western people would define it (it may be both actually).
If I have offended you at all Chris, I do want to apologize. Sometimes my secularist side gets the best of me. But I am more Agnostic with mystic influences and a respect for certain Eastern ideologies than anything. I just challenge people who have become so indoctrinated, that the kinder side of spirituality leaves them. The more open, understanding, all inclusive side, even.
No man deserves Hell, or the fear that such a place even exists.
I have to agree with Getitrite on this one. If everlasting life is true, it doesn't mean that any of your other conditions are, as well. I do not fear Hell, because I don't believe that any truly "just" God would create it, so even if there was a God who is somewhat like the one in the Bible, and being "apart" from him wasn't Hell, but simply finite death, I would certainly prefer finite death.
But, what you did sir, was try to implant a seed of fear in me. "What if you're wrong? You might burn in Hell forever?!?" No, I've already done away with that fear. There is no Hell.
In a way actually, I believe that since energy can neither be created or destroyed, when I die, "I" may no longer exist, but my energy would still be present in the Universe, and my body (I want to be buried naturally) would feed the earth, and from my remains would spring new life. IN whatever form.
No, what I tried to do was get a straight answer to a straight question. The "if" is all-important, because then you have to figure out not only if God exists but if He has told us anything we need to know about how to live our lives now or how we will spend them when our bodies give out.
You say there is no Hell, but you also say that "you've done away with that fear," implying that your certainty that Hell does not exist is almost an act of will. In purely materialistic terms (using the classic definition of materialism, not the 20th Century definition that is equivalint to "consumerism,") your panentheistic statement that your energy will be eternally present in the universe is neither more nor less provable than my statement that Hell does indeed exist.
To move backwards to your first paragraph, define "just God." If you define your idea of justice by 21st Century Western ideals of "justice," then NO philosophical system is truly "just," They can't be. Someone will always get the short end of the stick. But can God truly be judged by the standards we judge other humans with? And if a truly just God creates two places, one for those who demonstrated they really want to be with Him and one for those who demonstrated they really don't, why is it unjust to make the second one unpleasant?
And why would finite death be preferable to an eternity spent with God?
Nevertheless, I prefer your answer to getitrite's because you actually answered my questions (at least better than he did.)
"To a little girl being abused everyday praying for God to make it stop, and yet it doesn't stop, is more evidence to her that there isn't one. It's hard to stop and smell the roses when a man forces himself on you everyday."
You're absolutely right and I get torn up about such things every day. I'm much closer to such a potential situation than you might think, because I have a special needs daughter and worry constantly about what will happen to her after I'm gone. But the evil that men do is not absolute proof that God does not exist. And my opinion is not my own, God has revealed Himself to me.
BTW, don't think I'm too terribly naive about saying that. No, I don't need psychiatric help, I do not nor have I ever heard voices. I am more than happy to discuss how God revealed Himself to me, if you're interested.
I don't know why God allows such horrible things to happen. I wish I did. But He still exists.
You weren't talking to me, but I'm interested. How did God reveal himself?
Why is it though, that He did not reveal himself to her? What possible explanation can there be to excuse the kind of abuse she suffered? A man, her own father (I'm using a real life example) raped her every day for years on end. But you (and I don't know what you've been through sir) but you, He reveals Himself to.
Christians say that God does things so that He can be glorified. (Egotistical much?) So why, why didn't He save this little girl, while she genuinely cried out to Him time and time again? Wouldn't him stepping in, and teleporting her to a place where she could get help, an OBVIOUS miracle that would make everyone in the scenario believe, especially if after she gets there, He makes an "appearance" like he supposedly did with Paul, and says I am the Lord. He would've gotten glory. Yea, there would've been doubters still, but there would've have been some believers in the bunch. What many Christians seem to miss is that this is one of the main reasons people doubt God, either that He exists, or that He gives a rat's ass about humanity.
Also, what makes you special? And, in an example like this, what makes you think that God would then have any right to want her to believe in Him? A slap in the face. "I needed you and you were nowhere to be found, yet I'm supposed to love you?" If I was her, I would laugh.
"Why is it though, that He did not reveal himself to her? What possible explanation can there be to excuse the kind of abuse she suffered? A man, her own father (I'm using a real life example) raped her every day for years on end. But you (and I don't know what you've been through sir) but you, He reveals Himself to."
You ask good questions and a Hub might be a better place to give you thoughtful answers. My experience in forums is that it's way too easy to be reactive. I will give you a few replies, but I doubt they'll be very satisfying to you. Still, I'll try.
Why did God reveal Himself to me and not the girl? I don't know. My own experience is that God reveals Himself in many, many different ways, and sometimes it's quite some time before anyone recocgnizes the signs. Believe me, I know how that sounds to a lot of people, I wasn't always a Christian. And the fact is that I don't know anything other than the generics of what you've described. The situation is horrible, and I don't want to give the impression that I'm minimizing the experience of that girl. One of the worst things that Christians do is to try to give platitudes as answers. God is not that small.
What makes me special? Absolutely nothing! I got over that. And I never considered myself to be some kind of prophet, I have no prophetic statements about anything. I just know that God has impressed Himself on my life more times than I can count.
I don't know what you've experienced. I don't know what that girl experienced or continues to experience. I don't want to give glib answers. I only know that God is real and He really cares. My wife has Stage IV cancer and has not been given much chance. We have three kids, one of whom is severely autistic and non-verbal. Why would a "good God" allow these things? I don't know.
"and have become a more empathetic, understanding, not as easy to offend, independent, free thinking, open to new ideas person because of it. "
Ironically, and I know most won't believe it, it's t hat kind of attitude that lead me closer to God.
No you didn't offend me. People who disagree with me, as long as they are honest and not simply out to offend, I find interesting and usually enjoy talking to when they are also interested in conversation. Of course, a satanist would be different, or an honest Nazi, but I haven't encountered either of those.
The "Western" concept of God drives me crazy. God is not a Republican, or an American, or a Westerner. (I am all three of those, by the way.) And it's a desire to know the true God, the one who has revealed Himself to me, that has lead me to explore the Middle Eastern, or Near Eastern, ideas about God and how they should inform my own thinking. That's why I dislike Joel Osteen.
I've written in a Hub that almost all religions have a mystical aspect to them, and Christianity is no different. The danger is that people who have, or desire, mystical experiences make that the centerpiece of their religion, the "holy rollers." A bizarre variant on that is the idea that God will make you rich. I've certainly had mystical experiences, but not the kind that drive me to seek those at the expense of knowing the true God.
Which leads to an entire discussion about hell and Heaven that we'll get into sometime, but not here.
More over ..."Interpretation of scripture - there are those who want to believe, so there interpretation will be different than someone who is critical. If one spends to much time with like minded people they start to believe the there interpretation is the correct one. Think Critically."
You are making assumptions.You do not know me nor do you know who I may or may not have spent time with.
It seems like the discussion has veered far from the original question. It is dangerously human to have to categorize and name things - just as we have given separation and designation to different "religions" when in reality most of us believe that there is a greater power that governs us all and that is God. What each religious sect chose to use as their "handbook" is how they dictated and set standards within their own realm. God doesn't care if you eat meat on Friday or if you genuflect and kneel. Everyone has a different relationship with God. Foster it every day. Keep it strong. That's what matters.
God is just a higher power to believe in, its something to give people hope. I am not saying its bad but I think people should start believing in themselves and not to a story thats been passed down for many years.
Assuming that the believer has told you the truth or what he believes to be the truth, he has done what is required of him by the Creator and His son. He is not to engage in heated debate about His word. If it is not accepted, "shake the dust from your feet" and move on. Someone is waiting to hear. Some were meant to be vailed, they won't believe the truth anyway!! You want something concrete, He gave everyone the same thing, the sign of Jonah. Did'nt Yahusha say to his disciples that they saw Him do great things, walked with Him, talked with Him and the poeple of the latter days would have faith as their only testimony. Is it so hard to believe that there is a Creator of all things, that it all belongs to Him and He makes the rules. Let there be no mistake, I know He exsists. I've had to go to Him time and time again and He has answered me to the letter. That's another story, just like. if I tell you other truths He revealed to me would shake a lot of the christians they could'nt up. But it would be nothing so startling no one else does'nt know. All are required to read the Book for themselves. You are not to rely on man standing on the pulpit, my word, or anyone elses word. All will held accountable for their works. No exceptions!! If you willing do not read His word there will be no excuse, unless you were born blind, deaf and unable to speak, ignorance of His law will be no excuse. Saying all this to say, I will believe and be wrong for what can happen to me if there is no consequences. But all you who don't believe if you are wrong, there is a deathly price to pay.
I started a series a couple weeks ago on just this topic.
It talks about how Heaven isn't a finish line...
In my experience... each religion sez that THEY have the best imaginary friend/benefactor ("God").... THEY CAN'T ALL BE RIGHT!!!!!!!!
You're right, the problem is they are only thinking about themselves.
You're right, they are not all right. There is only one Creator. To find him, all you need to do is begin a sincere and earnest search of his word. Light will be shed. If you continue, more light will be shed until all the truths are revealed. Trust me. There is no mystery, He gave His word where a child could understand. That was not a slight on your intelligence, merely stating a fact that at one point in history the children taught the word to the adults. The confusion was begun many centuries ago. Who was behind it all? Read Rev.12:9. I know you don't believe in the Creator or the devil, but for the latter, it is one of his most powerful tools, that you don't believe that he exsists. It is time to learn the truth. It can get to be to late. Soon there will be something where you will have to make a decision on whose side you are on, Creator or satan. Your eternity depends on it. Eternal life or death. There is no burning hellfire. Rom.6:23, "the wages of sin is death." not punishment. I know you might say, here comes one more bible thumper trying to shove his beliefs down my throat. I'm only doing what our Heavenly Father Yahuah and His son Yahusha commanded of their disciples. If you see the sword coming, and don't tell the people and they are smitten by the sword, their blood is on your hands(I will be held accountable). If you tell them and they do nothing, there blood will be on themselves(I will not be held accountable). I do this following the second greatest commandment, to love my neighbor has I do myself. You don't have to belive me, the Book states Creator first, others second, myself third, then the children.
Getitrite; the sky isn't falling....the low water mark is rising.
Robertr04: Isn't that "Rev. 12:9" a reference to the King James version of the Bible????
Are you unawares that that book is a FAIRY TALE??????
If you could direct me to a well-documented tome, I'd be happy to "listen" to you.....
Otherwise, you go in to the heap with the others who have "found" an imaginary friend and want me (and others) to believe that he/she actually does - or did - exist...
Sorry, I'm not buying.....
P.S. Do your Jewish and Muslim friends find your reference to be believable?
God does not care for only Christian's; he cares for everyone and has hope for everyone.
Ackman, Rad Man how are you? First of all I'm new at this so I probably did something wrong in writing my reply. It looks to be only a third of what I wrote so it came up empty. I'll try and repeat it later. No, I use the Interlinear Bible for my scripture. It's translation coming from the original Hebrew. But even in the King James out of maybe 100,000 verses roughly 1500 of them are corrupt. This leaves quite a bit of non-fairy tale information. I'm not here trying to convince you that what you believe or don't believe is wrong, or right for that matter. But think about this. If those who believe and follow the instuctions of the Creator are wrong, what harm will become them. Now on the other hand if you are wrong, there will be a deadly penalty to pay. I myself will stick with the former. Now after you reply and we get over this hump, we can talk about my Jewish, Muslim and Christian friends.
Lord, Lord, He gave his only begotten Son. "AIN'T" that enough.
The world has been against God since Adam and Eve. The idea of proof of the existence of God is irrelevant because even with proof mankind would reject him. Adam and Eve rejected God and they knew him first hand. Jesus disciples rejected the idea that Jesus could be the son of God and accepted him only after his resurrection-once again proof is irrelevant.
The Bible talks about God choosing us (people) and not us choosing him.
The verse also states that if we are not of the world then the world will hate us as the world has hated God.
Good or bad, right or wrong God is only accepting those who are willing to believe in him through faith.
I knew they couldn't do it without the bible... Thinking for one's self is near impossible, if scripture is all that one studies.
Why do you think Christians should forsake their bibles to prove anything to you? Christians have the same secular education as anyone else. Christians wasn't born with some preset program to echo the bible. We went thru the vicissitudes of life with hard knocks from the world, and realized that the words in the bible was truth and that the world is controlled by satan, the father of lies, deceiver, and thief of what is God's.
"If God is on your side, than who can be against you."
At no point does the bible say that God only cares for Christians alone.In fact, one of the characteristics of a real christian is to love your enemies as you would your friends.God makes the rain fall on the wicked as well as the righteous.The point i am trying to put across is that,according to the bible,God loved us so much that he sent Jesus to die for us.Jesus died for the sinners.That shows how he cares for ALL OF US,not just a select few.I was raised a Christian and while a have veered off that path,i really believe what i have just told you.Don't let anybody tell you any different.
God's grace covers the just and the unjust. They are all is children...but there is also children of obedience and children of disobedience in families. The parents love them both just as God sent his Son that all might be saved. But parents do reward their children for good behavior and discipline those that choose otherwise. The good child heeds the parents warning about life's dangers...the not so good child ignores them and seek his own way. Is it really so different with God and his creation.
In fact, Christians are telling the world God cares for them but there are instructions (Bible) that we need to follow to assure his care will work in your life and the next! You can't have both ways...not in your own house neither in the House of God.
I wish they had a like button, LoL. I think it would also work if in the second cartoon, the "I has a baseball" guy was holding a baseball glove, as though having a glove= having a baseball. It makes it somewhat possible, but doesn't adequately prove anything.
One can pray for a baseball all they want, without an actual baseball, there is no game.
But one doesn't pray TO the baseball (except in some far-out religions...)
The proof can be given, but it can also be rejected because God does want faith. The Bible is full of stories of people who lacked faith, it's not a modern trait.
No one ever said that God only cares for Christians . . . anywhere. The Bible clearly states that he doesn't want anyone to perish. He makes the rain fall on the fields of the just and the unjust alike. God is Love. Keep seeking, brother.
Then it must be your God's wish that all Muslims, Hindus, Buddhist, etc, stop worshiping these many false gods, in order for them not to perish. Yet there is no more evidence for your particular god's validity than any of the others.
That's because you haven't done the research or allowed proper textual evidence to persuade you.
There are over 57,000 preserved texts of the NT alone! In many languages. 27,000 are greek texts, if we take these away we can still compile a NT from those other languages. IF we look at the time line of these texts many are within the generations of believers while they lived - circa before 100ad. Copies of texts - not rewrites show these texts to be believable in accuracy of the belief of the time.
When we look at the incredible story portrayed we cannot come to the conclusion that the NT has nothing to do with the powerful God of the OT.
God has always wanted purity of path when it comes to following Him.
You got it wrong...getitrite. The biggest difference between all the other religions and the God of the Bible is that he inspires men to write it down before it happens so that the world can see (if it wants to see that is) how God will make it come true long after the writers are dead and buried. Jesus Christ is the example of that! Even the return of Israel as a nation in May 14, 1948 is fulfilling scripture. That's why it is called the Living Word. Prophecy in all it's detail and foresight is the one thing not in the other books even though some may try they don't come close to prophet Isaiah detailing Christ death on the cross. How does one such as Jesus become such a powerful influence in the world and yet is literally torn to shreds on the cross?
Jesus said the gates of hell shall not prevail against his church. Well, guess what? He didn't even have a church when he made the statement. But look around the world now. I'll take His side over anyother because not one of them died for me and then walk out of tomb to prove I can get my life back. That's all we should really want and there is no better example than the Bible's demonstration because God knows what's really important....eternal life not gold and silver...wine and women. If I am wrong it want make any difference but if I am right it makes every bit of the faith I got worthwhile.
Your worldview is that of a blind fearful sheep, molded to live a childlike existence till death. I suggest that you try living your life based upon what you see happening, instead of what you have been told is happening.
Your God is just as imaginary as the other gods.
You were saying you didn't ever say there wasn't a God?
I'll be sure to post this there for you.
And, oh yeah..
Christ is way ahead of you..
Always will be.
I like you, getitrite. People with predertimed and preprogrammed responses that amount to broad accusations and sneering jabs, devoid of actual philosophical argument or even anything more than a broad knowledge of history, are always fun. I spent months having fun with someone just like you!
And to you as well.
If you have anything, I'm always willing to talk. But mostly what I've read from you is the sort of stuff I used to have great fun with ATroubledMan about, where he was quick to accuse and make generally insulting comments about people "needing masters" and stuff like that. He wasn't interested in conversation, he ran away when I tried. When I yelled at him, he came to life.
You may not enjoy argument for its own sake the way he does, and if so then that's great. But what is your basis for saying some of the things you say?
You got it wrong again...getitrite. I don't have fear...it is cast aside. I do my own research and seek with my own eyes. Your unbelief is in the word of God as well...it doesn't surprise this God. He's been dealing with that from the beginning but His word also has an ending known as the Book of Revelations. And this God made sure that His Book is still before us all so that no one can say...I did not know because you did not tell! You are right that I am being told something but aren't we all.....but let it be known you choose not to hear!
GOD protect all people whoz prove self to able to GOD.
Web : http://Businessprofitideas.com
God is something who cares for all but we are responsible for our own Karma,The type of things we do ,same type of things will return to us ,If we do bad to people bad things will happen to us ,if good than good .. So ,always do good
It is hard to see God in a man made world. It is hard to hear God with all this noise. It is hard to feel secure with all of these lies. It is hard to feel God's love with resignation to bitterness hardening our heart.
Listen closely. Do you hear him calling you by name? I do. Quiet, please.
You said it well, WD Curry...for silence is a virtue and in it the voice of God's Spirit waits for our attention. He will not speak a moment sooner and when he does it is a silent thunder that roars in the depth of my soul. I know I must enter in his presence on His terms not mine and therein is where most fail to know the Creator.
I always find this question a little funny. God (Yahwek-Elohim, the Christian god) is not some all loving benevolent deity, that has been made perfectly clear. He fully admits to being jealous and to wanting to be the main thing in your heart always. It stands to reason, then, that though he might still love everyone in some way it is quite likely he won't love anyone who doesn't follow those rules and whose constantly making him jealous or seeking forbidden knowledge etc, no?
I think it's also important to note that "God"'s existence would not supercede the existence of other gods, so whether we're looking at God as his original Mesopotamian self or any of the other's that came after, the question of whether God exists should be taken in a context with "well then, what type of being is he? Is he not being? Is he the only one or one of millions? etc." because even the picture of God in any given one of the testaments seems self contradictory, so you need to establish what you actually mean by God in light of modern developments and sentiments that God is some marshmallow like lover of all.
I apologize if any of this is offensive, but academically God never really showed himself to be as nice as all that.
God is a deflective mechanism, used to ebb the fear of death and loss. To believe whole heartedly that there is a god to fear, is as irrational, just as it is with the love of a deity. If one is to love anything above their own being, is to surrender a form of reasoning.
So then, the desire to be free of suffering and of the fear of suffering, loss and separation, are illusions of desire. As a result of a chaotic and irrational universe, we tend to mirror that of our herritage. We are lost in our own egos, seeking pleasure and solace from our own creative, sometimes damaging psyches.
"I always find this question a little funny. God (Yahwek-Elohim, the Christian god) is not some all loving benevolent deity, that has been made perfectly clear. He fully admits to being jealous and to wanting to be the main thing in your heart always."
Yes, He does. Very much the same way a husband or wife wants to be the everything to their spouse.
"It stands to reason, then, that though he might still love everyone in some way it is quite likely he won't love anyone who doesn't follow those rules and whose constantly making him jealous or seeking forbidden knowledge etc, no? "
No, he doesn't stop loving them. It's just that if they have shown in this life that they don't really want to be with Him, He's not obligated to let them in in the next one.
"I think it's also important to note that "God"'s existence would not supercede the existence of other gods,"
It doesn't supercede their existence, it denies it altogether. Look, either the God laid out in the Bible is real, in which case He created everything and there are no other "gods," or He isn't in which case whether or not there are other "gods" the fact is that God isn't. The claims made (by or about, depending on point of view) God are exclusive and specific, so either they're true or they aren't.
That doesn't mean there aren't other supernatural beings, just that if there is a God, there aren't any other "gods."
"even the picture of God in any given one of the testaments seems self contradictory, "
Not really. In what way?
"so you need to establish what you actually mean by God in light of modern developments and sentiments that God is some marshmallow like lover of all."
I agree with you there.
"I apologize if any of this is offensive, but academically God never really showed himself to be as nice as all that."
No, you're right. God is a God of love but He is also supposed to be a God of justice.
Justice for who? Himself? Ridiculous. I don't want to be his spouse. I didn't choose that for myself, so I shouldn't have to make a decision to "love" Him back. That's like those girls in the religious polygamist camps who are "chosen" against their will to be spouses for the "Prophet" who do not want to be so and face serious consequences if they deny his "love."
You speak of God on human levels, but then you talk about how He is above our thinking, our ways, etc. The only difference I see between man and your God is a sense of entitlement that isn't looked down upon because He supposedly created us, so we are His property with which He can do whatever He pleases. How despicable. And then He becomes angry when His "children" act just like Him. What did He expect if they were so called "made in His image?"
It really makes no sense, unless He's some bored malevolent dictator and we are nothing but puppets in His little puppet show. We get treated better if we move the ways He wants, but when we exercise freedom, and try to break away, He gets upset, and sets up punishment for us. Again I say, He is not a loving God. If He is real, He is a conditional, malevolent dictator, and you must accept this about Him and worship Him anyway, convince yourself that He "loves" you, and become another drone following His every whim.
Thanks, but no thanks.
Also, the scriptures that men use to prove Eternal Torment could just as easily make a case for Eternal Destruction. You simply hold on to Eternal Torment because that's the current consensus of the majority of fundamentalists and the like.
I'm sorry you feel that way. You have me at a disadvantage because you know more specifics about my experience than I know about yours. I wonder why you feel the way you do.
Again, I'll say something I've said before (and I know you're probably familiar with from when you were a Christian) God is not a human being. Human Beings are made in God's image, but that doesn't mean that God is just Zeus without the coterie. And yes, in a real sense that does mean you have to accept Him as He is and that there's nothing you can do about it. Obviously, a lot of people have trouble with that.
How pure do you think God is? Dawkins, obviously, thinks He's basically Robert Crumb on steroids, and that's the way a lot of people talk. But the Bible says that He is pure and without sin and cannot allow sinful people into His presence. If He's really that pure, then it changes everything. And it also means that human beings can be that pure. Not on our own, but yes, it's possible.
Someone is going to have to point out to me how "the worm that does not die" implies that you get destroyed once and for all and that's it. That's not some consensus view I absorbed somewhere. That's thinking about the actual language.
Considering it's pure nonsense, no one with a brain would ever accept it.
That's bit harsh, ATM. He's got a brain. He's just passionately holding on to something that I guess, at the end of the day, he's got the right to hold onto. I merely want him to consider opening some of those doors in there that he's got closed. That's all.
It's not harsh at all, it's quite mild, actually. Those kinds of irrational beliefs are dangerous for societies and mankind and are at the basis of what is wrong with our world, they need to be ridiculed with the utmost contempt.
But attacking people isn't what's going to change anything. It's certain beliefs themselves that are problematic, and trying to get people to consider this fact is the goal. You just appear as a troll to most people, no matter what your intentions or view of the subject. And that's one of the reasons why many people who are religious can't hear you... you're not disrespecting just their religion, but them personally. The religion I could care less about, but I doubt you would enjoy being called an idiot constantly, nor would you consider the words of the person doing the name calling as anything worth listening to.
I'm not attacking anyone, but am being attacked personally myself. I am attacking the irrational beliefs of people, which is an entirely different thing.
Of course, that's because believers are unable to distinguish their irrational beliefs from their arms and legs and believe they are being insulted personally whenever their beliefs are questioned or ridiculed.
Yet, it's perfectly acceptable for them to tell us we will burn in hell for an eternity if we don't accept Jesus as our savior. Do you think that is respectful of us?
I've been called much worse here, but I have never called anyone an idiot. If they believe they are being called idiots, they are just deluding themselves.
You are absolutely right and it changes nothing. This is what he does. When he can get me to yell at him (and he has) then he thinks he's scored some kind of victory and he proceeds to barrel ahead.
Yelling is what he does. As long as he can call me (and other believers) "irrational" then that's the sum total of his argument and he doesn't think he needs nor does he intend to either soften or become even mildly more intellectual.
And when he can bring me down to his level (like right now) then I imagine he sits back with a smug little grin and feels completely justified.
And yet, you know that is entirely false but you feel the need to fabricate stories rather than be honest, just like so many of your other posts.
So, trying to get you to be honest with us is the same as getting you to yell? That's an interesting conclusion.
Isn't yelling when someone uses caps, at least when writing? If I don't use caps, how would you know I'm yelling? More dishonesty.
Yet, even more dishonesty, or perhaps the limit to your reading comprehension skills is when you see the word 'irrational'?
Trying to get you to honest is bringing you down? If that's what you believe. How very sad.
What is very sad is that you like to be the center of attention and I have facilitated it.
Yes. A stance of ridcule and contempt for the thoughts of others is certainly going to improve society.
They are not "thoughts" at all but are irrational beliefs indoctrinated by their religions.
She was talking about your stance of ridicule and contempt.
You are far worse than many of the christians you ridicule. The very attitude you rebuke them for having is exemplified and multiplied by your attitude. As you call christians bible bashers you are certainly a basher as well and you lack any grace at all and any forgiveness.
You need to grow in jesus
Chris, I have found a site that you may find useful. It was written by a believer on hell and where the current idea of it comes from, and a thorough breakdown of the scriptures concerning it.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesus … nhell.html
I don't think that God only cares for christians. What I believe is that God cares for any ONE who believes in Him. He cares for any ONE who believes that there is a God. People of different races, of different faith, of different ways of worshipping but have one belief to the "GOD" they themselves worship, pray, sacrifice and give thanks upon. God looks after to those who even don't have a tiny bit of faith or belief in Him and is ready to forgive them once they turn around and call His Name.
God cares for all people through Jesus Christ in that God offered a way to Himself that all may, with just words, come to him = salvation by way of repentance. Just like you might take in a homeless person but still have rules of the house that they must abide by or be cast out of your house. Still you cared - but it just didn't work out.
Jesus said that the fowls of the air were taken care of so why not people also.
God is love how can this love not be available to all but of course with stipulations.
I would think that God would be firmly in control of the situation, since man is COMPLETELY POWERLESS against God...and if it doesn't work out, then it's God's fault for pretending to be just downright weak and naive, which is TOTALLY unbecoming A GOD...
Our GOD does not only care about Christian's or any single particular religion more than another. The thing that he cares about the most is that we follow what he has set out for each and every single one of us, which is to follow his ways. Have faith and believe and everything else will fall into place.
by Charlie 6 years ago
Can only Christians and those who accept Jesus Christ go to heaven?According to Christianity, only those who have openly accepted Jesus Christ and the Christian faith may go to heaven. If that is the case, what about the African tribe who has never heard of of Jesus? Even if they are good people,...
by Claire Evans 8 years ago
Atheists often ask for proof of Jesus being the son of God. If Jesus came to earth and everyone realized He is the son of God, would you still reject Him as your saviour?
by maddot 4 years ago
Why do Christians feel the need to tell us about their religious beliefs?I don't have a problem with Christianity or any religion for that matter, but I view religion/spirituality as a personal and privvate matter and feel that it's best kept that way unless one is specifically asked to expand on...
by M. T. Dremer 3 years ago
Do you believe non-religious people, who lead a good life, are still going to hell?One of my biggest frustrations with religion is the idea that, how you live your life is of no consequence if you do not accept god. For example, John Smith is a good christian man who helps people, obeys the law and...
by Brittany Williams 19 months ago
Atheism only means the lack of a belief in God. Why is it so hard for Christians to realize that we dismiss their religion for the same reasons that they dismiss all other religions? It doesn't make us horrible people, immoral, or mean that we are going to hell. It just means that we think the...
by charlie 4 years ago
Why does it seem most Christians are immature.It seems most people professing to be Christian do not have a proper grounding in the scriptures. They drink the milk but do not seem to be able ( or maybe no desire?) to eat the real meat- understand the deeper things of God, in spite of the fact...
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