Retire Hubber Score (and Hub Scores?)

1. 85

   Marisa Wrightposted 12 years ago

   I'd like to suggest we get rid of Hubber Score - and perhaps even Hub Scores. 
   
   They:
   
   - are constantly misunderstood;
   - cause a lot of upset and grief in the forums; and
   - encourage newbie Hubbers to direct their efforts in entirely wrong directions
   
   For instance, I've known newbie Hubbers stop publishing new Hubs, because doing so brings their Hubber Score down temporarily.   Or obsessively following other Hubbers.  Or posting legions of stupid questions (or legions of quick, poorly-considered answers). 
   
   Sometimes I feel like a spend all day explaining to distressed Hubbers that they shouldn't fret about their Hubber Score.
   
   Now we have people posting, upset because their "high scoring Hubs" are not Featured, as if a high score means something.
   
   I'd be interested to know what benefits Hubber Score and Hub Scores offer, to offset these problems.

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   1. 70

      brakel2posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I believe that most of my hubs have a fairly accurate score. One hub on which  I did hours of research is always in the 90s and has many views. I use the scores and views to determine whether to unpublish them before they go idle. The new hubbers will eventually adjust. to the hubber score and hub score and the  idle feature.. I think the hubber score gives hubbers an idea of how they are doing. If people do not understand the scores, maybe a better explanation could be put in the learning center.  We have had too many changes. The experienced writers who have published books etc. alway know they are doing well, so I understand the feeling. Others need a gauge.

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      1. 90

         mistyhorizon2003posted 12 years agoin reply to this

         But then you get someone like Bard of Ely who just had his highest scoring hub (in the 90's) idled, which shows they are not always very reliable.

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      2. 77

         TIMETRAVELER2posted 11 years agoin reply to this

         I have had just the opposite happen:  I've had hubs that scored in the high 90's drop down to the low 80's for no apparent reason whatsoever.  This makes no sense to me.  If a hub is good, it's good, and the ultimate score should not change..nor should the initial score be low.

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   2. 88

      Novel Treasureposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I think too, that the scores are misleading. I've had a hub be a 98 one day and then the very next be an 84. Nothing was changed, except the views.
      
      So I vote for eliminating it all together. If that can't be done, than maybe reviewing how the score is calculated because I don't think it's beneficial if it varies so wildly from one day to the next, especially when nothing on the hub has been changed.

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   3. 60

      purplmamaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Marisa,
      I agree that the scores are confusing and misleading. On one hand, I like them, but on the other, I don't. There are days when I look at my score and think, "Hey, why is my score so low? I'm a quality Hubber, aren't I?"
      Is eliminating them the answer? I think that HP should find a way to have an explanation pop up when you hover your mouse over your score (Maybe a better question for Simone).
      Excellent point!

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2. 83

   Simone Smithposted 12 years ago

   You make an entirely fair point, Marisa. A lot of people do misunderstand Hub and Hubber Scores.
   
   Is there some manner in which you think we should amend our Learning Center guides so that things are more clear?

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   1. 85

      Marisa Wrightposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      No.  There is already adequate explanation of both in the Learning Center.  However, that knowledge base is now so vast, newbies are daunted and are not reading it.
      
      It's clear that as a "feedback mechanism", these scores are giving misleading feedback, not helpful feedback.  Given that's the case, is it really necessary to replace these scores with anything, in the short term?  We have the Featured status for Hubs and we have Accolades.  Why not simply remove scores, you can always replace them with something else later?

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      1. 62

         Nurseyposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         You are so very, very right, Marisa! ♥ ♥ ♥

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3. 81

   WriteAngledposted 12 years ago

   I agree with Marisa that these scores should be ditched entirely.
   
   Apart from the stress and anxiety they cause to some people, the fact they appear to bear no relationship to any meaningful parameters and consequently the fact that they do not help hubbers to improve their output, the actual appearance of these numbers is most unaesthetic.

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4. 83

   Simone Smithposted 12 years ago

   I hear ya, WriteAngled! Once we perfect better feedback mechanisms, we'll probably replace this, as we fully acknowledge that it's not perfect.
   
   That said, this change will take time and resources, and both factors are being directed toward other things at this time. Please do know that a lot of us at HubPages Headquarters agree with you, and that we intend to address this issue eventually.

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   1. 52

      janderson99posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I would suggest the following for hubscore:
      The hubscore should become a transparent overall quality and popularity rating for the hub, with a published formula -
      quality (60%) +
      Traffic (10%) +
      Comments(10%) +
      Likes(10%) +
      Media /capsules (10%).
      This score would be shown to hubbers on their summaries (to replace hubscore) and would be used for ranking of pages in topics etc.
      Tell it like it is!

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      1. 91

         Cardisaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         I dont agree with this. One of my best and most successful hubs have only ten comments while the hubs with the most comments are HP directed/tutorial hubs or humor. What is the hub has a great article and uses less capsule? Does that mean I lose 10% ratings. Hubs should be assessed by their quality, not on comments and likes. Many people will vote down a hub even if it's a great hub, which used to a be an issue.

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         1. 89

            wildernessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I agree.  A hub on a controversial topic may generate dozens or hundreds of comments, while an information "how to" hub may not get anything past a few hubbers commenting from hub hopping.
            
            Likes and thumbs up - same thing, plus controversial subjects are likely to be rated as to the writers conclusions rather than the quality of the work itself.
            
            Quality and traffic, fine - that's what it's about, not popularity contest to see who gets the most likes or comments.  Media/capsules, maybe, but that can be a part of quality instead.
            
            Maybe factor in a time element into the traffic as well - older, matured, hubs should see more traffic than one 2 weeks old - or maybe not, letting time play a part in the score naturally.

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            1. 52

               janderson99posted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Revised
               Quality (70%) +
               Traffic (20%; last month) +
               Popularity (internal traffic)(10%) +
               
               => Traffic for the last month would allow new hubs to rank.
               => Internal popularity (internal visits) gives new hubs a boost that are popular in the community (replaces comments and likes)

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5. 79

   LuisEGonzalezposted 12 years ago

   Thanks for bringing this up. I really believe that a hubber score can be a source for misinterpretation, especially for new writers. However, the hub score does seem to help since it gives me a guide in regards to the words in the title, and other factors. My two cents worth, thanks...........

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6. 91

   Cardisaposted 12 years ago

   Here is my take:
   
   I believe the hubscore is irrelevant since a high scoring hub does not necessarily mean a great or successful hub. The hubscores are for the hubber's eyes only and serve no real value to the community. Since the quality assessment has been implemented, the hubscore have become basically null and void as they no longer represent quality.
   
   As far as the hubberscore is concerned I do see why it is necessary because it gives an idea who is active, who is spamming, and what the hubber is up to. For instance, if a hubber's score is at 1 for more than a month then that means the hubber is definitely doing something wrong or no longer an active member. This could greatly influence whether or not I take this hubber seriously.
   
   On the other hand, getting rid of it could put everyone on the same plane and bridge the divide that seem to exist.

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7. 69

   Alastar Packerposted 12 years ago

   There's a psychological side that's catered to with the hubber and hub scores. You make good and well thought-out suggestions Marisa, but I wonder how most would feel were they to be dropped. Have to ponder on it a while here. Some of the newbies are over obsessed with their hubber score and with human nature being what it is not too surprising. Speaking of obsession it's not limited to newbies as one HP vet (who shall remain nameless) has crawled one, and only one, of my hubs going on 100 times.

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8. 90

   mistyhorizon2003posted 12 years ago

   I totally agree that hub scores and to a large degree hubber scores could easily be done away with and it would cause less confusion to new hubbers and people reading hubs. I actually believe this would be an excellent idea as people would view each hubber with an open mind which had not been influenced by a meaningless number they happened to see prior to reading the hub in question.
   
   I don't agree that factoring in 'amount of comments' into any scoring system is a good idea because many people disable the comments feature on hubs for various reasons, e.g. being targeted by a regular spammer or troll, the nature of the hub being very controversial therefore causing major friction or abuse in the comments and a lack of time to answer detailed questions on certain types of hubs. I have quite a few of my hubs set to 'no comments' for such reasons, and would hate to be penalised for this.

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9. 67

   ThompsonPenposted 12 years ago

   I like the hub scores. I feel like they inspire me to make an effort in the community. And by having that push in that direction, I have found that I really enjoy taking part in the community. I answer and ask more questions, I take part in the forums more. I think as long as it is clear then they should remain. However, I think that no matter what people are going to follow excessively. It's like Twitter. How do you get people to follow you? By making them known you're there, of course. And to do that, you need to follow them. For people who don't know how to get known, they think that they should follow people, and maybe they'll follow them back. I don't think removal of the hubscore will fix that.

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   1. 86

      Millionaire Tipsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I like the hubscores also.  When my traffic tanks (like today), they give me comfort that the quality of my writing hasn't suddenly tanked. It also gives me a basis of comparison - I can compare my low scoring hubs with my high scoring hubs. It helps me see what I need to do on the low scoring hubs to improve them.
      
      The important thing that is missing is perspective.  I look at the range of scores, and don't fret when they move a few points here and there.

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      1. 85

         Marisa Wrightposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         But since the score isn't actually telling you that your high scoring Hubs are "better" than your low scoring ones, it's leading you up the garden path.

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         1. 76

            psycheskinnerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Indeed, you 'better' hubs are the ones with more traffic and more earnings--or do whatever you aim for them to do (get comments, please your mother or whatever).  Hub scores are ambiguous so you can't really assume they mean anything.

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      2. 59

         cascolyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         i agree - hubscores & hubpage scores are ransdom, meaningless and counterproductive
         
         eg, just about everyone has a hubscore between about 70 and  100 -- that's only a 30 point range, and yet doing NOTHING, the score varies by about 5 pts per day.  that's an enormous amount of noise, making it difficult to judge the effect of any changes we make
         
         same for individual hubs - the scores are arbitrary and impossible to use for any meaningful changes
         
         and now, with the drastic drop in traffic overall (for me, abrupt 50% drop, then consistently low over last week), the random changes in hubscores swamp any statistical validity.  the scores have no influence on google search results and cause people to look in the wrong places for ways to improve.

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      3. 87

         moonlakeposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         I agree.  I don't want hubscores or hubberscore taken away.

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   2. 60

      xstaticposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Agreeing with this point of view and the ideas that Cardisa mentioned.

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10. 91

    DzyMsLizzyposted 12 years ago

    I agree that hub scores are not an accurate reflection of much of anything.
    
    I have high-scoring hubs that get few comments; I have lower scoring hubs with a ton of comments; I have one poem that is way at the bottom of the list on score, yet it remains "featured."  I have several mid-range-to-higher scoring hubs that have been idled.
    
    So-----so what?  I do think this has become a meaningless number.

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    1. 87

       Jean Bakulaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Some of my best performing hubs didn't get any comments until they had about 10,000 views. I also think many people forget to click on the thumbs up or down, or bother to rate the hubs anymore. It's obvious from the number of views, and the much lower "marking" or "commentary" on the hubs.
       
       I also think there is so much info for new hubbers, it's overwhelming. They basically don't understand that it's traffic from Google they need, that their interactions with hubbers, although nice, isn't going to help their score. We all have friends we like to interact with here, and hubbers we enjoy reading. But it's not clear to newbies that none of this will get them money. The "Sign up, write hubs, make money", thing is misleading. The rules need to be pared down, and need to be a bit more up front and truthful. People who like to write are not always computer literate. I was just happy to write when I joined HP, and it was a steep learning curve. Nobody is going to read pages and pages of rules at first. They can only absorb so much, and are more concerned with seeing if they can actually write a decent hub, and if they like it, before they go back and read so many rules that are not clear.

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11. 70

    brakel2posted 11 years ago

    My hub scores seem to be based on traffic, so serve a purpose to me.

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    1. 76

       psycheskinnerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       Mine don't--and I assume they are the same score.  That is why I use the actual traffic score instead.

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12. 70

    brakel2posted 11 years ago

    We all have good reasons. I understand both sides of the issue.

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    1. 76

       psycheskinnerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       Using a score derived by a secret method is basically showing faith that the method is good.
       
       I guess I don't have that faith.

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13. 77

    derek gulbransonposted 11 years ago

    I'm loving this discussion. Here's some of my thoughts.
    
    Currently HubScore and HubberScore are confusing because they don't represent the attributes people think they do or behave as people would expect. If it were possible to form metric that did, that could still be useful.
    
    There are many different kinds of people in this world, and some people will never be interested in whatever metric we offer. That's ok. Some people will be more interested in the underlying data and we should provide whatever we can to help them make informed assessments and decisions. But some people respond much better to an overall metric and trust HubPages to figure out the details. HubPages needs to satisfy the full range of personality types.
    
    HubScore is accurate to some degree. A HubScore of 90 is nearly guaranteed to be much better than a HubScore of 30. Perhaps significantly decreasing the granularity of the metric, like 1-3, 1-5 or 1-10 instead of 1-100, might yield a metric less prone to random and confusing fluctuations but still somewhat useful from a community reputation perspective. There are disadvantages to decreased granularity of course, but perhaps this metric is not the right place to infer that level of granularity anyway.
    
    New users use HubScore to determine how they are doing. If the number goes up, they conclude their edits made the Hub better. This is completely erroneous right now, and we'd like to fix that. Ideally we could replace it with something that actually was useful for determining if you're getting better. The Quality Assessment Process seems the most promising candidate for that. While it's not quite there yet, it feels like it will continue to increase in accuracy with more ratings we get from the Hopper. If the automated rating algorithm improves to the point of providing a reliable quality metric that is not overly dependent on author reputation, it would be awesome to provide that to Hubbers. That makes me lean towards staying in wait-and-see mode for another month or two on this idea, unless there's a possible quick fix in the meantime.
    
    Hubber's have widely varying definitions of success. Some Hubbers write solely for income, some write because they love to write and don't mind making a bit of money on the side, some write because they are passionate about a topic and don't care much about income. Their reason or interest in revenue does not appear to have any correlation with their traffic success, so HubPages needs to remain a place where all feel welcome. Any metric related to any specific definition of success needs to be clear about what the goal is. For example, renaming HubScore to Traffic Score or similar might alleviate a lot of the confusion since it's currently heavily weighted to traffic.
    
    I've touched on this a bit, but the current HubScore is kind of overloaded, performing two functions that might be better separated; self-assessment vs. community reputation. I feel like I have a fair understanding of the self-assement side ("Is this good?", "Am I doing better?"), but I could use some input on the community reputation side.
    
    When you put your mouse over a HubScore or HubberScore, what do you wish it told you? Why? What would you do with that information or how would it change your behavior? (Ignore what it does now (nothing?), and imagine I have a magic wand and can make it do whatever you want. Yes, I know some think I really do have such a wand. )

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    1. 52

       janderson99posted 11 years agoin reply to this

       As stated above IMO, Hubscore should be a metric that reflects the value & overall quality of the hub. It needs to include QAP + traffic + popularity (out of 100%)
       => Quality (70%) +
       => Traffic (20%; last month) +
       => Popularity (internal traffic)(10%)
       If the author improved the quality of the hub and the traffic rose the score would increase. It should be transparent and it should be used to rank ranges for the topics, HOTD etc. " when you put your mouse over a HubScore, what do you wish it told you?" => Overall 70% (QAP 55; T 10; P 5). Tell it like it is!
       It should also be used to say why a hub was idled with a pass mark of say 40% - This could be QAP 34; T 1; P 4 say. Once again it tells you what you need to improve.

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       1. 77

          derek gulbransonposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Saw that. It focuses on the self-assessment and improvement side. I'm curious to know how these scores are used in the community, because I suspect a non-numeric system might be better suited to handling the community reputation side.

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          1. 52

             janderson99posted 11 years agoin reply to this

             Sorry I don't understand this "I'm curious to know how these scores are used in the community', because the hubscores are only supposed to be displayed to the author (the hubber scores are displayed, but their derivation is a mystery) (The hubscores are still displayed in the defunct "latest" listing). In the formula above I have suggested 'internal hits as the metric because of stated problems with "comments" and "likes" - 'red', 'amber', 'green' color codings could be used.

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    2. 60

       purplmamaposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       Hi Derek,
       If you're speaking to me, please do so directly........
       As I stated previously, I think that it would be helpful to explain what the hubscore meant when we have our mouse hover over our hubscore. Maybe I'm speaking French, so I apologize. When I said that maybe we could get an explanation of what our Hubscore meant when we hover our mouse over the number in our profile picture, I meant that maybe HP could explain what the number meant in relation to our activity. As an admin, if you still need my clarification, please let me know. I'm totally willing to explain further, if I can. What would I do with that information? What information? Do you mean our activity? I think that our activity stats would change our behavior , don't you?  And when you say that you wish that you had a magic wand, and that some of us think that you do, just how much control do you have over the format and design of HP???
       I'm sorry, did I answer your Q?

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       1. 77

          derek gulbransonposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          No, my response wasn't directed at you specifically, sorry for any confusion.
          
          Yes, explore what you mean by activity. I suspect that, from a community reputation perspective, we are more interested someone's experience level and/or success with HubPages, rather than a metric that doesn't really represent either of those things very well. A number based on quality or traffic would not necessarily tell us that they know what they are doing or that we should trust their advice. Or would it?

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       2. 77

          derek gulbransonposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          To clarify a bit more, in my mind, what you know about your own work and what other's know about your work don't necessarily benefit from being tied together as they are now with the HubScore. If we focus on just what you'd need/want to know about other's and their work (and what they know about you and your work), what are those things?

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          1. 52

             janderson99posted 11 years agoin reply to this

             In my opinion the HubberScore should be the average of the featured Hubscores (calculated with a formula such as above). Currently the HubberScore is very weird and wanders all over the place willy nilly. Not sure what you are getting at - The HubberScore is only shown in the Profiles and Forums anyway so its use is restricted. Sounds like you are heading towards another badge like 'a' ,'Hi' etc.

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          2. 95

             agilitymachposted 11 years agoin reply to this

             I am learning to ignore the number on a hubber's photo, unless it's really low.  What do I want to know about another hubber?  I want to know how long they have hubbed and how many hubs they have.  I want to know if they write about an area of expertise, and if so, what is their area of expertise.  Mainly, I want to know if their hubs are of quality.  Are they someone I can follow and learn from, or are they just busy posting to the forum and answers?  How to roll all of that up into some sort of number would be pretty impossible, I'm thinking.  
             
             What do I want other hubbers to know about me?  That I'm newer to hubpages.  I don't write for the hubpages community, but instead I mostly write for a specific sporting community (dog agility).  If my writing is judged to be of quality (which, of course, we all think our writing is ), I would like other hubbers to know and visit some of my hubs and hopefully leave constructive comments and feedback.  However, the next question is how would that "quality" be judged?
             
             What I don't want to know about another hubber is how active they are in the forums/answers.  I don't care how much traffic they generate because if they have quality hubs, that's what is important to me. 
             
             Is there a way to roll all of that into a number?   I doubt it.  But perhaps choosing something like hubber experience and rolling that number into years on line combined with the number of featured hubs would be the closest you could come.  Unless there could be a letter in front of the number for areas of expertise, chosen by the hubber, - say "P" for pet.  As I'm a newbie, my number - from one to 100 - would look something maybe like P20.  It would tell the community I'm new, I don't have hundreds of featured hubs yet, and I write mainly pet topics.

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             1. 77

                derek gulbransonposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                Thanks agilitymatch, very helpful perspective.
                
                (Don't let that stop anyone else from offering their own perspective.)

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14. 81

    WriteAngledposted 11 years ago

    I find these numbers meaningless. They bear no relation to anything, including traffic. A hub can change massively in score from one hour to the next, with barely any change in traffic and no editing on my part.
    
    Personally, I would like the ability to remove these numbers from my statistics page together with some of the other columns which merely distract from the information I do want to see.

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15. 61

    Rp bazarposted 11 years ago

    I just joined now. Trying to understand the topic. but i am enjoying to read all comments

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16. 70

    bayouladyposted 11 years ago

    I've never liked the scores. It feels like high school. A "Who's Who" kind of thing.I wish Hubpages would ditch it altogether.

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17. 0

    Bronwyn J Hansenposted 11 years ago

    HP should scrap the Hubber and Hub scores as soon as possible. We have accolades that are easier to understand, and give newbies a clearer goal to work towards. They are static, and do not require three university degrees to decipher.

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18. 72

    LeanManposted 11 years ago

    I have no problem at all with scores, I can ignore them all day everyday..
    
    They (hubscores) mean almost nothing as two hubs with a similar structure, word count, number of capsules, type of capsules etc and even with similar levels of comments and traffic will have different scores.. so to me it means nothing.. I think all of my hubs score somewhere between the 70s and 90s and all I really worry about is if the get traffic and if they are featured (so far so good..)
    
    An actual score for me means nothing! All I want to know is if Google likes them and what Google likes them for (pity the stats no longer tell us search terms!!- this was the most useful data in the stats in my mind!)
    
    As to the Hubber score, well the only value this has in my mind is telling me that my links are do-follow, or are HP going to dump that also? The score again does not seem to reflect the behavior that HP should actually value. If HP wants us to publish more, get more traffic, hop x hubs per week; then make it clear so that the score obsessed people know how to maximize their performance.
    
    
    
    Scores on the whole are great for keeping people engaged, but if they cannot see the relationship between the score and their behaviour the benefit is quickly lost..... If scores are kept make them transparent..

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    1. 59

       cascolyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       agree completely - a poorly designed metric is worse than no metric at all.  the hubscore tells us nothing about the quality, SEO or traffic generating value of a hub,

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    2. 85

       Marisa Wrightposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       I think your sentence sums it up nicely:
       
       "Scores on the whole are great for keeping people engaged, but if they cannot see the relationship between the score and their behaviour the benefit is quickly lost"
       
       This is precisely what happens on HubPages.   Newbies fret about their scores to a ridiculous degree, until they either realize they can get readership despite them, or get discouraged and leave.

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       1. 52

          janderson99posted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Why all the secrecy, all the mysterious formulae and algo.
          It's time for show and tell IMO, using published formulae with transparent derivation
          All the following are dis-functional:
          - hubberscore
          - hubscore
          - ranking in the topics
          - HOTD
          HP needs to reveal what its score for a hub is - very simple - a number out of 100 and explain exactly how it is derived. It should use this for all of the above (hubberscore = average).
          The argument against this is that authors will game the system (bribe Mturks) or there will be too many complaints, or that it is 'business-in-confidence'. I don't see how any of these are realistic. Countering this is that if hubber knew their scores they could get feedback on the success of their edits (not a bad idea!). Also HP can and does change the formulae for its own reasons that are not disclosed. (remove any suggestion of bias?)
          
          Tell it like it is - for real.

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       2. 77

          derek gulbransonposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Yes, love that summary. Thanks for starting this discussion, Marisa. Very helpful.

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19. 95

    jansharesposted 11 years ago

    I would love for hubber score to reflect experience and hub-writing skill measured by:
    
    - number of months/years on hubpages
    - average score of first 10 hubs, then the next 10 added in, then next 10, and so on; this would reflect progress as the hubber's skills improve over time; this way the hubber score should increase over time, reflecting experience and skill
    - add in a measure of helpful community participation as bonus points, e.g., comments that help or encourage other hubbers, i.e., 10 per month would count as one bonus point.
    
    Newbies would not have a hubber score at all until they reach at least 10 hubs. The longer you're on hubpages and the more hubs you write, the more your hubber score would increase. Subsequently, the more you write and understand how to create a quality hub, the more your hub scores will increase.
    
    I also think there should be an orientation period for newbies. They should take their time writing 10 quality hub articles (not including short poems) to get the hang of using the tools and learning the rules while they wait to be approved by Google for adsense. How about 2 months?

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20. 79

    tlpoagueposted 11 years ago

    I found this topic interesting and the comments that went with it just as stimulating. When I first started, I used my hubscore as a method to see how well I was doing. Over time, I began to see how easy it was for others to become confused by them, or obsessing over them. By the time my family had joined, the first thing I told them was to ignore the score, so they wouldn't become discouraged as they wrote and drove up their traffic. To me, I would vote to discard the score.
    I took away viewing my accolades when my level 7 commentator dropped to a level 4 when I was absent for the months I took off this summer to work full time. This I felt was unfair because I have spent many hours commenting on hubs, in the forums, and helping others. I didn't want those that are new to following me think that I wasn't much for commenting. (It just may take me a little bit of time to get back to them when I am working, but I will try to respond back to comments left, and support others with comments, as my time allows.)
    At moment I see the hubscore as being more of a distraction than being helpful. Maybe if there was a better explanation to it I would be more attracted to it.

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    1. 71

       That Grrlposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       The Hub points/ score has come to mean so little that I don't look at it any more. I've seen new people get all upset about it and then more upset when I explain that it really doesn't mean anything concrete. It's not about any of the things they think it means. So, then they ask why it exists and I don't have an answer for them.
       
       I do think it could be a good thing, if it were to actually mean something. It would be nice to know where you stand overall on the site for your published posts and your level of quality. I don't think that would be a simple thing to measure however. We have posts which are short stories, poetry, photo or image galleries and these can't be measured in quality of the text because they are not based on having a lot of text to be measured.
       
       Also, I'd hate to see it become a popularity contest. So much about being featured as Hub of the Day already seems to be about who you know. Not all of us are extroverts or have much time to work on being social enough to be noticed. That is one of my pet peeves about working on HP. I know I am not social enough to ever get one of those awards/ badges. So I pick something else as my goal.
       
       Are there other ways HP could measure the standing of writers on the site? I'd like to see more badges because those are easy to figure out once you read the FAQ. They do mean something and people can understand and set goals based on which badge they want to get next. I do think some of the badges are spaced too far apart to be considered attainable. I've got my 100K readers and I'm really happy about that. But, the next goal is 1 Million, pretty discouraging and way too far reaching. I'm not planning on that goal because it's just too lofty.
       
       Anyway, those are my thoughts on the HubScore. It seems meaningless and defunct. Which is a shame because we really need morale and things to mark as our goals to work towards.

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21. 91

    DzyMsLizzyposted 11 years ago

    You know, I've been mulling all this over, and I really do not think  Hub Scores make much sense at all.
    
    I was looking over my list of hubs, and found that my least-read hub, with only 2 comments (1 from a fellow Hubber; 1 'outsider'), and 198  total views ever still ranks as 'featured,' even though it's dead last on my list of hubs.  It has lots of things "against" it:  it's short; it's a poem; it has no images; it was published shortly after I joined and did not know "the ropes," back in 2010; it's "score" is only 40......
    
    Yet, it remains with the featured "H." ... Mind you, I'm not complaining, I merely offer it as an observation of the apparent futility of trying to figure out Hub scores, because they really seem meaningless in light of this example.

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    1. 95

       jansharesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       Wow, that is confusing, DzyMsLizzy. Thanks for sharing that. Now I really don't understand getting idled. Sounds like everyone has a good point about need for some revisions.

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       1. 59

          cascolyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          it's not really surprising, since HP doesn't have any measurements for quality of the hub itself, so they're measuring cosmetic components and probably something related to visists or search terms
          
          just look at the 'hot' questions list to see some truly ridiculous 'choices'

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22. 70

    brakel2posted 11 years ago

    Hubber score is important to me. If I see someone with a low score, I may check out his bio.. He may be new., Sometimes, he has been here a while, and writing low quality hubs. They may need to be flagged. He may be on the edge of using hubs to benefit his business ( maybe spam). A hubber was in the forum at one time, born in US, low score, atrocious language. I looked at his hubs, and they were of most inferior English. I and several others flagged him, and he no longer writes on this site. Basically, along with the QAP,  hubber score is important for these reasons. This is my opinion, and I do understand all the other reasons given in this thread.

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    1. 59

       cascolyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       hubscore has ZERO relevance  to quality - it seems to be mainly a device to encourage people to use the social aspects of HP
       
       the scoring alogorithm demonstrates no ability to check the quality of writing in a hub  and doesn't find anything but the most blatant self-promotion. 
       
       on the negative side, it gives people the false impression that participating here will do something to promote their hubs when all it really does is increase hp traffic - they profit, we don't.  at best it's disingenuous
       
       if you discover poor quality hubs, the only way to fix any problem is to flag them.  hubscore itself doesn't show quality;  a hub by a non=english speaker may in fact have more quality than the hubs by native speakers - content, not style is the most important factor

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23. 72

    Frangipanniposted 11 years ago

    I'm really new to HP so I find it a helpful guide but obviously you an't take it too seriously.

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24. 0

    GoldenThreadPressposted 11 years ago

    I know that Hubber Scores gives me some gradation as to how my hubs are faring. I think we all need a heads up on how things are going out in Internet Land. So if we are tuned into our Hubs traffic, could we have a list of our Hubs that are being actively sought out by Google/HP/et.al and list them from 1-10... or something like that? I think we can figure out the stats page and see how many views each of our hubs are getting. Keep the red and blue arrows (or better yet--use the "stop sign" indicators) because that will alert us as to how the traffic is flowing for our hubs--maybe even add a yellow as it may tell us that traffic is falling/waning. I believe the positive aspect of this action will give us a clear view as to which Hubs are the shakers and movers and which one are sluggish. Plus, we can review the top producing Hubs to glean the positive aspects of why they are doing so well. Just a thought. --Deb

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    1. 59

       cascolyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       it's all busy work -- a few extra views one day get a red arrow, when qhat's important is weekly or monthly trends.
       
       hubscores dont correlate with traffic -- hubs with scores 70-80 include both some off ny best traficked hubs and some that have NO views this month

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25. 71

    jacharlessposted 11 years ago

    A simple solution would be a "semi retired" score that is only visible in ones account area, until a new mechanic is executed. For those who find Scoring useful, it would continue to appear next to hub info.
    
    James.

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    1. 81

       Marcy Goodfleischposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       I just noticed this thread had come back to life.  I agree with the OP - the scores should be retired.  Or, at the very least, not made public.  James' suggestion here has some merit - if the score is meant to help Hubbers know where they can improve (currently, that's a mystery), and if we don't want to scare off new Hubbers or new readers, why would the score be visible to the public?
       
       New Hubbers have a right to start out here without some sort of very noticeable badge that makes them appear to produce low-quality material, but in fact, it usually just means they're new and haven't done much yet on the site. Meanwhile, some really bad Hubbers have managed to get high scores.  So readers and followers think they're checking out good-quality writing, when in actuality, the current score is no indication of quality at all.
       
       Once the new criteria is developed, the score might have uses for HP to track quality and whatever else is meaningful (quality should be the overreaching goal, though - forget about 'activity' on the site). So it makes sense for there to be some internal indicators.  But it also makes sense for them to have meanings and values understood by all, and for the Hubber to have access to that information.
       
       HP can make poor-performers less visible, or un-index their work if need be.  But it is just not cool to have a publicly visible score.  Think about FERPA - how would people feel if student grades were made public? Although the H-score isn't a true 'grade,' it has connotations that can make it be seen that way.

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26. 91

    Sue Adamsposted 11 years ago

    Don't get rid of Hubber Scores and Hub scores Marisa.
    We need them to see how well or poorly we are doing here on HP.
    
    With a little tweaking Hubber Scores and Hub scores could be made to reflect pending and idling criteria.
    
    Please people, also look at this thread http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/108768 "Idling and pending hubs are killing traffic". The two issues are related.
    
    Are we playing tug of war Marisa?

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    1. 85

       Marisa Wrightposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       But that's the point, Sue.  Your Hubber Score and your HubScores tell you nothing about how well or poorly you're doing. If you read back in the thread, Simone acknowledges that's the case.
       
       That's why they should go, because so many people are using them as a yardstick, and that's misleading. 
       
       For instance, I've seen people say they've deleted a Hub because it had a poor score, whereas I have Hubs scoring 75 that make a lot more money than a Hub scoring 95. 
       
       I've seen people fret about their Hubberscore, thinking it reflects the quality of their work, when in fact a large chunk of it is about their level of activity (on the forums etc), not about their work.
       
       I agree there's a very good case for idling Hubs based on extremely low HubScores, because those are caused by HubPages actively penalizing some kind of transgression - like copied content.  I'd love to see HubPages unpublish all Hubs with a score lower than 30, say.  But I would be worried about HubScore in general being used as a measure of quality, since even HubPages admits it isn't.

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       1. 52

          janderson99posted 11 years agoin reply to this

          @Marisa "Your Hubber Score and your HubScores tell you nothing about how well or poorly you're doing."
          
          That's true, but that's why they should be changed to scores that are meaningful and are transparent in informing you about the QAP scores for your hub and the traffic index.
          http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/108553
          Hubberscore as the average of Featured revised hubscores would provide a better rating for authors from HP's perspective.

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          1. 85

             Marisa Wrightposted 11 years agoin reply to this

             I agree but that has to come first.
             
             There is no point campaigning to use HubberScore and HubScore to run the featured/idling process until we have scores that work.
             
             I'd hate to see HubPages agreeing to Sue's campaign to use Scores with the existing system, then never get around to fixing them.  That would be a disaster.
             
             So let's have a campaign to fix the Scores, by all means, but let's not put the cart before the horse.

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    2. 59

       cascolyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       sorry, you keep saying hubscores can be fixed to be meaningful, but you haven't shown how that can be done by responding to the problems  mentioned in this thread.  your first suggestion in the other thread is
       "1. Relate Pending and Idling to Hubberscores and Hubscores."  but that can't even be considered unless hubscores have some validity.

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27. 91

    Sue Adamsposted 11 years ago

    But the two are part of the same job. The criteria for Pending and Idling must be reflected in the Scores, so both issues make sense. The two issues are one issue really. I wonder when a member of HP staff is going to react to both threads.

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    1. 52

       janderson99posted 11 years agoin reply to this

       Simone's response
       
       "It looks like we're going to hold off on refining HubScore until we're done tweaking the QAP. Makes sense, no? But your insights and tips are great."
       
       http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/108553

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       1. 91

          Sue Adamsposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Simone's reply was 10 days ago. For those of you who need clarification of janderson's proposal here is where you can find it: http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/108768? … ost2317370

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    2. 85

       Marisa Wrightposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       It would be great if both could happen in tandem.  I'm concerned that some of your posts are about campaigning to use Scores for the system, without any mention of changing how the scores are calculated. That is what worries me, because not everyone will read the other associated posts.  If the two can't be separated in your view, then they shouldn't be campaigned for separately.  That's all I'm saying.

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28. 85

    rebekahELLEposted 11 years ago

    I can only imagine a lot more moaning and groaning if QAP ratings are configured into hub/hubber scores.  I don't think that's the best way to go. It's strange enough that some mturks (whatever they're called) are fellow hubbers.

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29. 60

    darksideposted 11 years ago

    It won't ever be removed, why? Because people get fixated with rankings and ladders. They strive to climb them, to beat them, to game them if needs be.
    
    It drives them to publish more, to succeed, to exceed expectations.
    
    People talk about it, discuss it, debate it. It results in more forum activity and articles being published, and the more activity, the better a site like this can rank on a global scale.

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30. 75

    CelebrateUSAposted 11 years ago

    I like the idea of removing the score but I feel we need a place to ask the writer for improvement. The new standards of excellence with the number of words and the photos and other capsules is a high help.
    
    What about a separate stats page that allows the writer to sort their hubs: 1.) the number of words 2.) the number of capsules? This would help guide us how to refresh our hubs. Also, I find I forget to label the photos - if I could isolate the photos that are missing a description, I might have higher traffic?

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    1. 59

       cascolyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       as long as HP allows any content, none of this will matter -- poems, astrology, religious rants, etc are all accepted (as they should be), but none of this will generate any measure of quality - it's just not part of the equation

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31. 82

    donotfearposted 11 years ago

    I have a solution...
    Award me, donotfear, a score of 100 then take everyone else's away.
    Hhehehehe, then nobody else has to worry about it but me.

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32. 0

    Beth37posted 10 years ago

    So I just read a hub tease that said this:
    
    "For thows who do not know, rice is a cheap, empty starch."
    
    She had a hubber score of 87. I don't know why this bugs me, but sometimes... it just does.

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    1. 91

       Cardisaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

       lol. I was going to start a discussion about people who have less than 50% of their hubs featured and not very good topics with hubber scores of 98-100, but I decided against it. It would bother anyone. "thows" people with "thows" high scores are just plain lucky I guess...lol

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       1. 0

          Beth37posted 10 years agoin reply to this

          S'like... c'mon. I cud've dide.

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          1. 91

             Cardisaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

             Beth, I'm dying to read that hub, title please

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             1. 0

                Beth37posted 10 years agoin reply to this

                Aw, I can't now... it seems mean. She had a TON of articles so I was impressed, I just thought when I saw that mistake, such a strange one, her score must be on the low side, then I went and looked and blimey! How am I supposed to feel good about myself, if someone who can't spell "those" has a higher score than mine? lol

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             2. 60

                bBereanposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                ...of course if someone were to put "thows cheap rice" in the forum search... 

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                1. 0

                   Beth37posted 10 years agoin reply to this

                   what's a forum search?
                   
                   Do you mean a google search?

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                   1. 65

                      relacheposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                      When the Forum Queen has to ask what it means to search the forums, it's time to abdicate.

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                      1. 0

                         Beth37posted 10 years agoin reply to this

                         Oh my gosh... this is such a big day. It's the first time GA spoke to me and possibly one of the firsts that you did. Im writing this in my diary.
                         
                         And no one's taking my tiara. I will have nothing pretty to wear when I dust... which is almost never.

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                   2. 60

                      bBereanposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                      
                      
                      Actually "forum search" was incorrect, as it is just a "HubPages search".  You can choose to limit searches to just hubs or forums, though.

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                      1. 0

                         Beth37posted 10 years agoin reply to this

                         huh, so you can put, say a sentence, or keywords from a hub in that and you'd come up with the correct hub?
                         
                         Let's all agree not to do that so I am not to blame for making a stranger feel bad.

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                         1. 60

                            bBereanposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                            Agread.

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                         2. 61

                            Lisa HWposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                            See...   THIS is why you were made forum queen, Beth.   

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                            1. 0

                               Beth37posted 10 years agoin reply to this

                               Yes, it was clearly not b/c of my knowledge of any useful subject matter.
                               Im pretty sure the only reason I was chosen was b/c everyone knew my hubs would never see the light of day therefore leaving me unable to officially shame the site.

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    2. 81

       Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years agoin reply to this

       Oh, wow - I hope you reported that hub?  Did you check out the other content from that Hubber?  I'm sure there are other issues.
       
       One of my red flags is when a hub summary is very poorly written, and the actual hub is nearly flawless. It's one of the earmarks of copied content.  Trouble is, it's sometimes hard to prove; people can take out-of-date encyclopedias or textbooks and copy them, word-for-word.

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       1. 0

          Beth37posted 10 years agoin reply to this

          I don't think I could turn someone in for being a bad speller.
          It would make me feel bad.

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    3. 39

       Writer Foxposted 10 years agoin reply to this

       Out of the blue, you resurrect this old Forum thread to point a finger at another Hubber's spelling mistake and complain that your Hubber Score is two points lower.  The Hubber of your jealousy has published 140 Hubs, has over 300 followers and her Hubs have been viewed more than 100,000 times.  She has never bad-mouthed another Hubber or pointed out someone's trivial spelling error on a public Forum. She doesn't make hundreds upon hundreds of Forum posts every week.  In fact, she doesn't post on the Forum at all. Given her track record, why wouldn't you expect her Hubber Score to be at least two points higher than yours?

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       1. 0

          Beth37posted 10 years agoin reply to this

          Oh no, you've started again.

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          1. 39

             Writer Foxposted 10 years agoin reply to this

             No, you started this post a thread which is a year old.

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             1. 0

                Beth37posted 10 years agoin reply to this

                You would like me to defend myself against your accusations?
                I will do so, though you are on the attack and that is your goal.
                Once I have answered your accusations, are you going to be able to rest or will you need to continue?
                
                I was impressed with this hubber. I found her topics interesting, she had a beautiful pic up and I clicked on it, b/c I wondered if it was a real photo or stock image cause it was kind of interesting.
                
                As I read thru her hubs, I wondered about her faith as she had kind of an interesting, wide array of spiritual types of hubs.
                
                When I saw her strange spelling, I thought her hub score might be low, but then saw that it was higher than mine. (Which is funny to me, cause there I was assuming it was low and it certainly put me in my place.)
                
                Once again the whole question of 'what exactly does this hubber score consist of?' thought went thru my mind. I thought it was funny, I thought I'd share it, but there weren't any threads having to do with the hubber score so rather than be accused of hijacking a thread, I googled one so that I could post my funny findings. It is still a subject I am very interested in as I think they should work with us on this hubber score thing. Give us more consistent direction or get rid of it... or just some better feedback.
                Anyway, that's the whole story. I hope it satisfied your curiosity.

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                1. 39

                   Writer Foxposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                   
                   
                   It's interesting that you like to point out the spelling mistakes of others when you make so many of them yourself. "Thru" is not a word. You have misspelled the word "through." "Cause" is not a word either.  If you want to leave out the "be" in the word "because", the proper way to spell it is: 'cause.
                   
                   
                   
                   It's not funny and that's a run-on sentence.
                   
                   It's not funny to post someone's spelling mistake on a public Forum.  How would you like it if I pointed out the mistakes in one of your Hubs here?  She didn't ask you to help improve her Hub.  That mistake which you find to be so funny is on a Hub which isn't even featured.
                   
                   I'll repeat: "Her Hubs have been viewed more than 100,000 times." She at least has something to show in her PayPal account for the time she spends on HubPages and maybe that's part of the reason her score is higher.
                   
                   You owe her an apology.

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                   1. 0

                      Beth37posted 10 years agoin reply to this

                      I posted one sentence, I was not aware anyone could ever know who I was talking about. If you had let this drop, there would be less chance for anyone to pursue this. And secondly, it is a spelling mistake... not only did I not try to defame her, as you did me, I did not try to bring her any personal attention, as you did me. You actually owe me an apology, but I have let it go. To pursue peace is preferable to what your goals are. I'm not sure why I am your personal target... do you know? Maybe you could avoid me as I try to avoid you? It seems the adult thing to do.

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                      1. 39

                         Writer Foxposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                         Everyone else was aware that the Hub and Hubber could be found from the sentence you quoted.
                         
                         You wanted people "to pursue" this which is why you posted it on the Forum.  You were jealous of that Hubber and you said "She had a hubber score of 87. I don't know why this bugs me, but sometimes... it just does." And then you posted: "How am I supposed to feel good about myself, if someone who can't spell 'those' has a higher score than mine?"
                         
                         No, I don't owe you an apology.  Maybe you'll feel better about yourself when you apologize to the Hubber and when you, too, have 100,000 views.

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                         1. 0

                            Beth37posted 10 years agoin reply to this

                            I agree that they are a superior hubber... now... maybe find something more productive to do.

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                            1. 39

                               Writer Foxposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                               I hope you can find something more productive to do.

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                               1. 0

                                  Beth37posted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                  Well I just played banangrams with my family and now we're watching something called "The Cape." I hope this meets with your approval, but if it doesn't, of course, it wont affect me any more than any of your other imaginary bullets. Is this a "forum queen" thing? If you send me your address, I'd be happy to mail you the cape and tiara... it doesn't come with a scepter, but I've found that gluing some sparkly things to an empty paper towel tube does nicely.

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             2. 85

                Marisa Wrightposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                Actually that was my doing.  There was a discussion on the forums about HubberScore and its problems, and I posted a link to this thread to prove that HubPages had been petitioned about this before, without success.  I'm guessing Beth followed that link.

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                1. 0

                   Beth37posted 10 years agoin reply to this

                   I don't know how all that works. I just googled hubber score, Hubpages forum and that was the first one, I think.

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33. 61

    The Examiner-1posted 10 years ago

    Marisa,
    Did you read my Hub about how to understand the Hub and HubberScores?

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    1. 91

       Cardisaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

       Wow, I doubt that Marisa does not understand the scores, shes been here almost as long as the scores have been around. I am sure she understands them  but many of us share her sentiments about why they need to be retired.

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    2. 85

       Marisa Wrightposted 10 years agoin reply to this

       I've just done so, Examiner-1, but I do already know what they're based on.
       
       As you say in your Hub, HubberScore is partly based on "activity", including things like forum posting and commenting on others' Hubs.  That's why it's misleading, because
       
       (a) most newbies think it's entirely based on the quality of their Hubs, and therefore get upset. 
       
       (b) once they do understand, they think "if the score includes activity, then activity must be vital to earning income".  So they spend hours misdirecting their efforts within the HubPages community instead of outside it, and get frustrated when that doesn't result in a payout.
       
       Any successful Hubber will tell you that 90% of their income comes from outside HubPages.  That should put the importance of community activity in perspective!

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       1. 0

          calculus-geometryposted 10 years agoin reply to this

          Unfortunately it takes some people a long time before they realize how trivial it is, but by then they've wasted so much time commenting on anything and everything just to raise their score. 
          
          The only thing I care less about than my hubberscore is what other users think of it.  If they want to use it as some sort of weed-out criteria for which hubs they will deign to read or link to, good for them for finding some way to simplify their life, lol.  99% of my traffic comes from search engines.
          
          Analyzing the stats in my account, I've discovered that hubs with a high ratio of math to exposition have lower scores. If someone deems that low quality, that's their business.    I wouldn't convert them to pictures just to increase the score, that'd be SEO suicide since the math text is searchable.

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34. 82

    jellygatorposted 10 years ago

    I like the scoring. I think of it as a snapshot of a much bigger picture. I'm not that active in these forums or on the Q/A stuff, but my Hubber score is 100. I think this is because I am active regularly enough, write regularly enough, and produce enough traffic. (I know I sure as heck don't produce a whole lot of SALES!)
    
    As far as Hub Scores, I've used them when looking for relevant hubs to include in my own. I've found that low scores often mean there are many grammar mistakes and not much substance. Scores around 60-80 are reasonably competent, but they aren't "magazine slick." They may have great content and so-so presentation/layout. They may be popular topics. Whatever. I am very particular about these things, so I look for hubs that are scored 80+.
    
    I think everyone perceives themselves as great writers, but the truth is, not all of them are. Not everyone excels at selling Amazon and Ebay products, but those who do have great value to HP. So looking at a Hub Score tells me that something's missing if it's below 80...including on my own hubs, and gives me an idea of where to begin editing when I have free time on my hands.

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    1. 61

       The Examiner-1posted 10 years agoin reply to this

       Marisa,
       How about something like - Hubber Score & Hub Scores broken down:
       Comment Score, Q&A Score, HubHopper Score, etc. = Total Hubber Score
       Content Score, Quality Score, Grammar Score, etc. = Total Hub Score(s)

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       1. 85

          Marisa Wrightposted 10 years agoin reply to this

          Are you suggesting HubPages should show the breakdown of HubberScore?   I think that's not a bad idea.
          
          However the purpose of this thread wasn't to suggest improvements, because HubPages management had said it didn't have time to look at that.  My suggestion was that until they do have time to fix it, we'd be better off with no Hubber Score at all, than one that's misleading. 
          
          I think a new thread on how to improve HubberScore could be worth opening, if you feel so inclined.

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    2. 59

       paradigmsearchposted 10 years agoin reply to this

       I am doomed...

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35. 80

    Alphadogg16posted 10 years ago

    I don't mind the hubber score, don't really pay a lot of attention to it, however it would be nice to have a clear understanding of how it works exactly.

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