I find this news sad if it is true. If so I will miss you Pgrundy, I enjoy reading your thoughts on the forum and know that others will miss you too. If you are just holidaying from the site in favor of a killer opportunity then all the best!
Nope, she is leaving. She has deleted all of her hubs. She posted one hub to say goodbye.
I don't think she said she was leaving, only that she is not happy with the way HP has become a portal for people coming to make money.
She said she's not here for the money, though earning a little would be nice, but she's not going to change her writing to accommodate the selling atmosphere that is looming over HP.
I think that all writers that come here to HP have to assess what their ultimate goals are for being here. Then develop a plan that will bring them closer to their goals. Of course most people that come here have to get their feet wet to realize the opportunities and if you have been active here for more than 6 months and haven't earned more than a few dollars or garnered the following you think you deserve then it's time to re-assess what it is you are doing wrong.
Pam is a decent writer and from what I remember, she's making a living at it as a freelancer. As all freelancers know, sometimes you have to write what you don't want to write if you want to eat.
Yes she is leaving, she has deleted her hubs, and has one remaining. To be honest I think that it is all a little petulant, read her remaining hub which is a goodbye.
Wow, I just checked and she is leaving. It's probably the best thing for her since she's not happy here.
I stick by my words though, most writers have to write stuff they don't really have an interest in so they can eat.
And I agree with you. I dont buy into this stuff about money, she could have monetised her hubs without compromising on artistic merit - there are even poets on here making some good money from certain keywords. Pgrundy clearly wasn't happy here, and I wish her all the best, but she was herself critical of people that are here to make money - it is possible for both to co-exist in harmony. We are in a global recession and there have been people on here trying to make money to feed their kids or pay their bills, its great that Pgrundy didnt feel the need to make cash - but others are not that fortunate. I hope that she finds happiness wherever she goes, but her goodbye message suggests that she is going to try and make an income with her unpublished hubs - so that is a little contradictory.
The bottom line is that Pam may not have had the desire to monetise her hubs, but she must have been selling something somewhere to earn her crust. It just so happens that people like Nelle Hoxie, Mark Knowles, etc..... earn some of their crust here. I intend to join them too, its not like those people dont offer a service or add anything. Look at Darkside, he can monetise a series about greek gods - so anything can be monetised. I wrote a whole series of 20+ hubs about Famous Serial Killers, they dont earn me much at all and never will, neither will my 30+ hubs about various soccer players. I can make decent money and still enjoy my writing on certain subjects, my best earning article has just been published in a magazine!
I don't think Pam ever said she didn't need to make money. She just enjoyed the writing more than the scrabbling around for keywords etc. She is a great writer first and foremost, and I hope she gets the break she so richly deserves.
A little before your time, methinks, but this has been a long-running point of discontent ever since the first challenge. Hubpages used to have a unique balance of marketing-based writers and professional writers (before you all beat me up, I am not saying that marketers are not professionals, but I can't think of another term - suggestions are welcome!)
This was what made HP strong - you have the marketers attracting a good volume of traffic and the people like Pam and Theresa McGurk attracting repeat visits, for the long term. People read their work and bookmarked or were even inspired to sign up and begin writing. That helps to build your base of loyal, core customers.
The balance has shifted too far towards the marketing angle - Pam's argument was not so much about the monetisation but the way that the site no longer encourages writers. You are right in that there should for room for both, but it does not seem that way at the moment.
In addition, whilst we are all here for money, your point about writing about uninteresting things is a little unfair - when you have been writing for 12 hours a day, every day, for many years, then you have to have some interest in the subject or you have no motivation - much like any other job!
I usually respect your views and your enthusiasm, but politely disagree with you on this one - not everything is about monetisation and keywords. It is about the site having a long-term plan and maintaining a reputation for quality, something that does not appear on balance sheets but should lie at the core of any business plan.
The site is losing its best and most talented writers - that is not a good thing and it has little to do with petulance.
Im not sure where I made my point about point "writing about uninteresting things" so I cannot comment on that, and perhaps this is a little before my time, but one of the first hubs I read on this site was called 'Ten Ways To Make A Little Money Fast' by Pgrundy. Im not sure if you are familiar with this hub, but it was the very first money making hub which I encountered. Just to put a little perspective on things.
One of the reasons given by Pam for leaving is the number of people who have been trying to give her advice about monetising her hubs, I know who two of the people are, I am not one of them. They are both great writers and very valuable members of this community - I wont mention their names as it was only cause a descent into a cheap popularity contest. One of those is primarily a creative writer, one is what you would probably refer to as a marketer.
I have spoken to one of these people, and their attempts to help were only driven by her frequent despair about lack of earnings - something which she was often very forward about on this forum. The only way that people can make good money on this website is to use SEO and Keyword techniques, driving traffic from search engines and tempting them to click on an advert or affiliate capsule. If somebody appears to require help, is then offered help, but is then critical of those that take time out of their busy schedules to help - then I cannot have a massive amount of sympathy.
Clearly Pgrundy took great offence to these attempts to help her make her existing work more profitable for her, she did not need to write sales pages or change her approach in any way. I would like to point out Sufi that any despair about the declining quality of hubs on this site is shared by me, as is evident in this thread Is Hubpages Trying To Grow Too Fast? which was started by me, involved you, and on which Pgrundy was nowhere to be seen. Interesting therefore that some of the sites best marketers were involved in that discussion.
Good luck to her, there are still some great writers on hubpages who go almost completely unrecognised - feel free to seek them out. Here is one that you appear not to have discovered http://hubpages.com/profile/Russell-D
David is a big writer and I am a fan of his! but he stops writing for the meantime as he said he has a problem with breathing, he is a little bit old already too, check out his hub,
hehe - I remember that forum post and even commented - it seems like ancient history, now! I still feel that this has not been addressed properly, or maybe I am turning into a stubborn old dinosaur
Sure - this all goes back to the original point - there is room for both 'styles' of writing, and HP was built upon both. However, the fallout from the first challenge (I allowed myself to become caught up in it, so the blood is on my hands, too), is still causing ripples as it created an artificial split in the community.
Put it this way - whenever I see a forum post asking who are the best writers on HP, you usually see a list of names including Relache, Darkside, Sunforged, MK, Nelle (and yourself ).
Absolutely no disagreement here - that is a stellar list of HP talent.
However, I see few posts including Pam, James Watkins or McGurk, for example, yet they are supremely talented writers and used to be included on any list of HP's finest. I am a member of another site with some HP escapees and the talent on there is frightening - Hubpages' loss, I am afraid
I guess that my point is that both 'sides' used to learn many things off each other, but it all seems to be one way. Only one man's opinion, so take that how you will
I am not trying to drag this down to personality politics, either, but I have a different viewpoint from you, although we do agree on many things concerning quality. I guess that most of my views come from experience in sales and retail - the balance is important in any business. Any business model that does not take into account core customers and the long-term will suffer - eBay take note!
Pam's beef is part of a wider picture - not just HP but the fact that the internet is full of crap and it is difficult for the quality to rise to the top - try looking at the freelance boards and it will make you weep. This is probably inevitable and a sign of the way that the internet is changing things, but it still sucks when you are a professional attempting to scratch a living.
One more point - adsense is not the only way to make money here - it is also an excellent place to advertise as a freelance writer, too. That is the main reason why I stick around
PS - Richard made the point about writing about uninteresting subjects - apologies. I blame the senility
I can remove the original egg on face smiley but have earned another one
David Russell is about to be fanned - I get your point about the encouragement and it is well made. Sadly, browsing HP is something that I do not have a lot of time for, and I think that many people are in the same boat. Work getting in the way of enjoyment
Hey Sufi, hope things are well where you are What I said was "writers have to write stuff they don't really have an interest in so they can eat."
Didn't mean to imply they were uninteresting subjects which is a little different than the writer not having a real interest in writing them. Just sign up with Constant-Content and see what fills your email with suggested articles to write about. But if you want to eat, you have to write what people are searching for.
This question is for anyone, How many people do you know that make a living solely from writing?
Hey Richard - long time, no see
I think the thing to remember is that it is not all about HP, adsense, Constant Content or whatever - there are still private clients out there, but they are increasingly difficult to find. I am fortunate in that I get to write about interesting subjects, rather than what is driven by search terms
Fortunately, there is more than one way to skin a cat!
Ryan: "I 100% share the frustration that not enough is being done to protect this site from low-quality content. I dont think that it has anything to do with whether something is creative or a marketing article, for me the issue is quality. Lindaoffigan is, in my opinion, the queen of the crap!"
I think that this is the crux - HP used to have a good blend of writers learning to market and marketers learning to write (Folks like MK and Relache are talented at both!) Now, it seems to be a little unbalanced - it is too much about breakneck growth without feeding the roots.
Still, change is part of life
You're right about that. The writing I do here on HP has been a huge change in style for me. I write screenplays because I enjoy the creative freedom. Here, I needed to adapt my writing to fit into the money cycle that comes with online content.
I think a writers greatest gift is the ability to adapt.
Very true, Richard, for some of us it is the adaptation thing that is part of the creativity of writing...I have written journalistic pieces, poetry, grant proposals, copy, etc., etc., and enjoy the challenge.
...and just saw your other post addressed to me.
Actually, I have a lot of free reign in my position--I decide what gets a PR spot, write press releases, and create feature articles which I place in publications. I do this sometimes outside and beyond my job description, just because I enjoy it, mainly.
And I have written a bit of SEO for other businesses--I must say the few articles I've written were much easier to monetize with keywords, --with one at $600 equaling more than I have ever earned here. Which for a few reasons puzzles me... But then again I was paid for my WRITING, not for the clicks.
Also, sometimes a writer just has to decide they will write their fiction or their poetry or screenplay and go for it...not let other concerns get in the way. I kind of see Pam's decision in this light. I think she probably made the best decision for herself--as attuned as she seems to things (through reading her writing), .
I actually do see Pam's (and your) point in its entirety, I guess that I just felt that not enough was done to distinguish between established marketers such as Mark Knowles and the semi-literate spammy shit spewing out of China and India at a rate of 20000 one-syllabul words a second. Particularly in a recent thread which preceeded Pams exit, where it seemed that all marketers were tarnished with the same brush.
I wish her all the best in her future endeavours, particularly knowing that her husband is in poor health, and hope that she decides to pop in and show her face on the forum some time.
I 100% share the frustration that not enough is being done to protect this site from low-quality content. I dont think that it has anything to do with whether something is creative or a marketing article, for me the issue is quality. Lindaoffigan is, in my opinion, the queen of the crap!
I myself am going to endeavour to spend a little more time encouraging new hubbers (talented or hardworking ones) away from the forum, and perhaps this should be the greatest initiative for the site actually - sometimes I think that it is easy to forget that many hubbers do not participate in the forums.
I guess that I have taken a positive out of this thread, and that is a genuine realisation that the only way to counter the crap is to help coax the diamonds out of the rough. There is a saying where I am from "you can't polish a turd but you can rub it in glitter".
Its a shame that Pam is leaving, I had bookmarked and was looking forward to reading her Abraham Lincoln hub.
I certainly do not belong in a list of great or best writers here on hubpages, I have most certainly sold out and actually enjoy learning and experimenting with the art of traffic generation, content tweaking ..search engine optimization. Its just another creative output for me. If I could have my way and the world was fair, i would be making a living off my fine art paintings and prose, I learned rather quickly that isnt something someone should bank on and set out on learning ways to adapt what I enjoyed to what is practical. If its just for fun, than its just for fun, if its for money than I must adapt to what the money wants.
PRGrundy is a very skilled writer and she showcased that, Sufi, I am honored that you even bothered to mention me, primarily becuase you would be in my list of great writers on HP...plus there are so many who one just stumbles upon who have no forum interaction and just write for the love of being read.
Sufi you have hit the nail right on the head. I couldn't have said it any better. It is a sad day when writers of Pams caliber decide to quit Hubpages.
Haha... Just catching up, and see Sufi's latest post. In answer to the question, 'how many people do you know make a living solely from writing,' add another to the equation: I do, too.
And writing SEO content is just one aspect of writing for a living. A very small subgenre in the field of marketing, really. Pam's writing is good enough that she should be paid FOR her writing, which is a different thing than writing for clicks.
And I agree with almost everything Sufi has said in this post. Hubpages is very much diminished by Pam's leaving.
Yes but you write for somebody else, you do not write solely for yourself. I mean the content of your writing has been paid for so you have to style it the way your employer wants it. (Not your stuff here on HP of course)
I should have phrased the question, how many people earn a living solely writing what they want to write? Freelancers, technical writers, corporate writers, etc. all write at the behest of a client or employer. There are very few authors here that earn a living solely from their own creative works of fiction.
Sure, I understand you now, although some history and science books are underway so I can hopefully add myself to the ranks of people making money from stuff that I want to write
I think that we are all actually after the same thing - that is why I was careful to use the phrase 'artifical' divide in an earlier comment. I remember that great discussion we had, where Ryan, yourself and Sunforged were as concerned about quality as the more creative writers.
Sunforged - Cheers, buddy - I think that you hit the nail on the head. I have a great deal of respect for the 'hardcore' marketing writers - I appreciate that it is hard work and requires constant learning and some risk-taking. No problem with that - I see the relationship as a symbiotic relationship that everybody benefits from.
I guess that my particular beef was with the challenge - I remember Misha making a perfectly reasonable comment pointing out that some of the writers were a little unhappy and he was shot down in flames. That was the moment when I ceased participating in HP as much - there are other options out there.
This thread is turning into a good, old-fashioned display of Hublove
And why not eh? About time, Man of Sparta!
How is your neck of the globe? I will be returning to Lisbon shortly. Providing the snow knocks it off over here
Hey FD - very cold in the Spartan mountains. We have had some superb thunderstorms and may yet have a white Christmas. Hope that you are enjoying a few pints back in Blighty.
I saw the news - looks like the UK is at a standstill. A couple of snowflakes and everything shuts down. Hope that you manage to get back in one piece
One of my favourite rant topics. I lived in Croatia for 5 years, where life went on normally when there was a foot of snow. Dear British Rail explain that even half an inch of snow can stop all trains when it is "the wrong type of snow"
It's cold over in Lisbon. No heating either. I'll be wandering around in quilts and woolly knee socks no doubt
Have had a pint or two on the odd occasion. Brit pub culture was never my cup of tea. I actually prefer the Portuguese way - they go out, get drunk and don't fight
As for the weather - seriously ... it's not the damn snow but the idiots that can't drive in it. I despair of the average UK driver's ability to drive in winter conditions. They still observe roadway niceties and give way to folks coming downhill for e.g. - knowing damn well they're not going to be able to shift again.
Crazy. But true
Edit: which means folks like me get stuck behind them and end up having to say the eff word. And frown. And spit feathers. Still, I got home. I don't give way. I just drive in a determined 'I'm getting home' fashion.
Each site seems to have its own atmosphere for writing , and each one needs to be adapted to , in order to be successfull many different adaptations need to take place I believe, thats what brings in different streams of income, if you only write in one style and don't conform to website styles I dont think the streams of income will be as many , thats just my take on it anyway
oh if that is true we might already have lost a good writer,
we really need to know what is our objective in joining HP and what course you are going to take
they say that good writers dont earn that much here,
and for those who earn, it takes time also
I imagine bad writers don't earn much either! So many complaints about why haven't I earned much, is HP a scam, and why am I not getting butt loads of traffic etc. This to me says, bad writer who doesn't care to improve and is just looking for a get rich quick scheme. Annoying little buggers and sad if they are driving away the real talent here
It's a shame that some couldn't just leave her to do her own thing.
Too many wannabe guru's floating around looking ever so smug as they try to push their shitty advice and/or products.
And you don't have to spend long within these forums to seriously consider joining her.
I'm here to make money too, but most of the posts I read about how much some are making aren't intended to inspire others, despite what those posting them would like you to believe, they're just an outlet for a build-up of smug.
That's why I try to stay out of the forums, heh-heh! Too much clique-i-ness going on there. I am here to write. Not to socialize in forums. (Not saying that I don't like making friends and being nice to people, because I do - I just think my time is better spent researching and writing articles...)
The bottom line is that each of us has joined HubPages for our own reasons, whatever they may be. Some are learning to refine their writing skills. (My own writing has improved vastly since I started here) Others are here purely to make money. Or for political or hobby reasons.
I think we all need to "tend to our own knitting" and not judge others, nor should those who are doing better here act smugly towards those who are not...
PGrundy is a wonderful writer and very intelligent also. All her articles were very well-written and excellent. I will miss reading her articles.
sometimes it's just time to move on. no one should judge her decision. she makes some valid points. hope she will have happiness.
I do not judge her decision, I will miss her tho! I found her input here on the forums to be very refreshing. I do find it sad to lose such a great writer and member here
I will miss her also. I didn't say you judged her, hope others won't.
I think a lot of people come here from the zillions of ads saying you can make thousands with google and think it will be easy. I don't think I could ever devote that kind of time as that's not my niche, but others become energized with that kind of writing and make decent money. But that doesn't mean others should be expected to write like that. I do feel the same way. HP has all kinds of writers and as far as I see in the description of what HP is, it's for people who love/want to write.
I liike how ryankett and kirsten put it here, you can write articles, make yourself better as long as you know what keywords work and the backlinking aspect as well
Pam will certainly be missed but I see it as having outgrown a job with no further upward gain. She clearly didn't and doesn't want to turn her hubs into a sales pitch and I commend her for that alone. So, in writing what she enjoys and in order to keep moving forward she has made a decision to leave the company. It is sad but sometimes it is for the best to do this for oneself.
Yes she was a great writer, but she was also very critical recently of those who are here for financial gain - whereas I cant really see anything wrong with it. Neither do you it seems, you have hubs which are promoting things, as do most of us. But the key thing, which people were trying to get across to her, is that she didnt need to write hubs about 'Biofreeze pain relief' to make money....... she could have altered 5 or 6 words in each page of her content and made a small fortune. There are poets making $600+ a month of hubpages, she could have made much more without selling out.
it would be nice to make $600 a month with poetry.
something I've noticed with google searches in the past half year are that more and more articles that reach the first page are filled with so many ads, it's annoying. it's like no longer about the quality, but money. aren't there times when you're searching for info, and you find all of these articles by people who really know nothing about what they're talking about, it's a review. I either have to find the exact site I'm looking for or often go in a few pages to get a really substantial professional article.
I never got that she was critical of me or others like me who write with the hopes of affiliate earnings and that in fact she was here for similar reasons. My impression was that its these hubs that took all of 5 mins to write that are aimed at selling alone that were the problem. I have rather enjoyed learning new stuff so that I could give something of interest associated to what I hope will sell. I am no Nelle Hoxie at selling with amazon... Yet but I could not just throw together some crap in under 5 mins and expect anyone to read or buy anything from my hub. I may be wrong but it seems more likely that if you offer something new to a reader you might just make a sale, or click, or just get a nice comment or back link etc. I really don't think the problem was with writing something of value for sales but was lazy writing that offers nothing new with the hope of sales.
Therein lies the rub. People who write to market for adsense revenue don't want to give away the farm. They only give enough so that the reader will click away through an ad.
If your writing is so detailed that the reader doesn't have to click away, then how do you make adsense revenue? The question is redundant and needs no answer.
Many writers here that are successful earners know that one style of writing is not enough. You have to write hubs for traffic and hubs for products and very rarely are the two the same.
I'm sorry to see Pam leave too as well as some other very talented writers that have gone since I've been here but the site is not going to change back to the way it was. Especially since the only ads you see for HP is to entice them to come EARN MONEY WRITING and no ads that ask for writers to come share their poetry or short stories.
You are right Ryan I do try to monetize and sell but I also have a balance of other things that I write about. No, she doesn't have to write about Biofreeze as I did or buying a heart shaped pan as Nelle did and I commend her for not wanting to go there in her writing.
She could have changed things up to make them more keyword happy and made tons of money but for some it isn't the need to do that and she shouldn't be bashed for not wanting to do that in her hubs.
Sufi talks about balance of the site and I agree you have to have a balance to make it work. You have to have the people who write really good quality hubs to keep people coming back time and time again or no one is going to gain from the point and click.
All I was saying is I see her point and how I look at it. It is a strategy that more and more are going to use in the future as this site becomes filled with writers who write on everything under the sun. Some will leave just because they are fed up with the picture hubs getting all the rank, some will leave because they need to try a different avenue to make money, others will leave because they just don't want to expend the effort it takes to learn everything there is here to learn. You just have to accept it and move on too. Some of these writers will be missed, Pam included, but others will just slink away.
I think what she did was a professional as it gets when you are leaving one job and in this case many followers who read your work. You want them to know you haven't crawled in a whole, your writing can be found elsewhere and that you did not make the decision lightly.
this is why I admire you Ryan - you are not afraid to speak your mind, and do it eloquently.
what do I think?
I think no one should have to apologize for why they are here. some people are here just for the money, so what? does that make them "sell-outs" or "smug"? NO. calling them that is just spiteful in my book.
then some are here just to flex their creative muscle and don't monetize their hubs. again, so what? people who are earners shouldn't tell them they are wasting their time, or that they don't belong here.
like Ryan, I write about whatever I am interested in and try to strike a balance between what 'sells' and what is enjoyable for me to write about. I looked through the entire Premium Idea bank and didn't write about anything there because a) I'm not interested in any of those things and b) I don't know anything about a lot of those things there.
everyone is here for their own reasons and nobody should feel they have to justify their reasons for being here.
I will miss you Pgrundy. you were always really nice and a good hubber. best wishes and happy holidays to you and yours.
Well I have been tryin for a while to come up with either a good basis for a Hub style or to sell, and after looking at the people sellin, I just couldn't get why they are on a Writers Site. So I won't be doing selling on here.
I particularly came on here as I enjoyed a few of the Hubs by Pest, he is gone now, but others have joined.
I just don't see me being interested in reading a Hub selling anything from womans knickers to cookie cutters.
Surely these people could go elsewhere, I reckon they haven't a natural talent for Writing, so my vision, its either a Writing Site or its not.
I have been tryin to write about the Australian Camp Oven concept. Its basically a hole in the ground you cook in, you can't buy it, but a half wit could sure cook a good meal in it.
Well in that case it is not a writing site then, its a online content site. This site is geared up towards attracting search engine traffic. If somebody searches for 'large cookie cutters' and finds a hub called 'large cookie cutters' then they have found what they were looking for, what you want to read is irrelevant unless you searched for 'milkshake recipe' and ended up finding the 'large cookie cutters' hub. This is a business, with 7 or 9 employees based on various accounts, each of whom are paid a full time wage to run this site. Add to that bandwith costs, office overheads, etc etc...... and you will find that this site could probably not exist without the people writing about cookie cutters and womans knickers. I write sales pages, 199 more pages than you it seems. You cannot tell me whether or not I can write, especially with the nuber of grammatical errors displayed in your forum post. There is just as much skill and knowledge in creating a successful sales page as there is writing a good poem, if not more.
To emphasise this point, there are an estimated 91 people per month searching for the term 'Australian Camp Oven' whilst there are 301,000 people per month searching for the term 'Cookie Cutter'. That is precisely my point. I actually make a decent income writing for two print only publications, and I can make the topics as whacky and exotic as possible. If those two magazines have a circulation of 30000 people then I can be confident that 10000+ people will an article on Australian Camp Ovens. Write that article on hubpages and rely on search engine traffic using no keywords other than 'Australian Camp Oven' and make no attempt to backlink, and you will be lucky to get 1000 views in 10 years.
If people cannot grasp, or are unwilling to grasp, the concept of SEO then they are 100% publishing on completely the wrong platform. I include Pgrundy in that category, she simply wants to be a print journalist or a published author..... this is a different game. If she ever got a publishing deal, how do you think the publishers would 'promote' and 'market' the book? They would use advertising networks like adwords, retail outlets such as Ottakers who use advertising networks such as adwords, and they ultimately are reliant on marketers to provide the platform from which to display those adverts.
It is the way that the world goes around, do you think that I publish articles called 'The Best Large Hamster Cages' offline? Of course I dont, it doesnt work there, it works here.
The thing is...you can write what you want. You don't HAVE to sell anything.
That being said, I will miss her too.
I wish pgrundy would stay, but it sounds like she plans on publishing her work. Good luck Pam, and you will be missed .
Pam emailed me yesterday to let me know that she has Left and has not been happy for awhile which has only emphasised by Bill her partner's ill health.
She maintains her involvement in the blogsite DropOutNation along with several other senior writers from HP.
She is a loss to HP and I'm sure this saddens everyone who has had the pleasure o knowing her.
Cheers, Rob - How is the NZ summer treating you?
PS Ryan - just realised that you have been here for 16 months, so you can ignore the comment about 'before your time.'
Where's the egg on face smiley when you need it!
This is certainly a shock. Hubpages lost a valuable member. And I though she was making money here...
I am shocked and saddened to hear that Pam has gone! I enjoyed her writings and we agreed on a lot of stuff, having had similar experiences in life. I am very sorry to see Pam gone from here!
As for making money here I still don't know how you really do it. I wish I did! I got excited for a while when I made my first 100 months back but it has never increased since then or been a reliable source of income at all so I must be doing something very wrong.
Sad to hear that Pam is leaving us on HubPages - she was one of the most intelligent and entertaining writers here.
@Bard - I'm also at a loss here as I've not made much. In fact still not enough to get over the payment threshold. But since I'm writing for the enjoyment of it I guess that's OK?
I too will really miss Pam - she is definately one of the best writers around and has a real passion for the things she writes about.
For the record, I enjoy the whole earning thing. Its a fun hobby for me but if I had to choose, I'd rather be a relatively poor writer than be rich and sell out. Pam, if you are listening, we will miss you!
I wouldn't be offended. I would be grateful. it's a lot harder trying to do this without personal advice from the Hubpages 'elite'.
there's over 100,000 writers. surely somewhere in there are some very talented writers.
I have seen a few very talented people here, as well as a few that are not exactly talented but who try really darn hard to write something with value! I like to think that I am somewhere in between
You should count yourself in the talented group
I think that there are lots of them, even some of the so called 'marketers' are very talented. When there are people like David Russell with only 77 fans, it says all that cynics need to know. I can show you more talent too, even by looking at the 'latest hubs' page.
http://hubpages.com/hub/I-Realy-Hate-Christmas - I really enjoyed this rant!
http://hubpages.com/hub/Rantings-of-a-c … t-outsider - This is a well written and thought provoking hub, the newest one on the site apparently.
http://hubpages.com/hub/amwaymlm - This is a business hub, also one of the newest on the site, looks like it could be in the Financial Times.
These are decent writers have less than 50 fans between them. I suggest that anybody bemoaning the lack of talent takes their time to explore the site!
We could all be doing more to keep good writers on the site, rather than moaning when one dissapears, by simply finding and commenting on their hubs!
If this is true, it has really saddened me. I miss her already, she was one of the finest writers that caught my eye when I had joined in. Best of luck in whatever you do, wouldn't judge your decision. Would always be an admirer of your writing.
What appears to be coming out of this thread is a complete misunderstanding of what was mean by 'balance.'
There is some absolute crap on this site that is monetized and no doubt earns enough for those parties to feel like they are 'writers,' which many are not.
There also seems to be an 'understanding' that it is the role of those who write quality content to provide a platform for those I refer to above.
Loosing professional grade writers shows a problem within the site that appears is not considered to be of any consequence at the moment. A hell of a lot can be done to gain a more realistic balance; but in reality.... why not 'follow' the market, instead of growing the uniqueness of the site and in that respect establishing a horizontal market base as opposed to trying to please the google/twitter/facebook monopolies.
Perhaps such a task is beyond the management capabilities? It should always be considered that great writers are not bred here, they are already great writers, that when lost; are another site's gain. - Monetize that!
@ Sufi..... NZ Summer...It's getting hotter by the post
I think we all know the answer to that. HP is a business and devoid of altruism. You see, with the way ads are displayed here, HP is going to earn money whether the author does or not. Traffic it traffic for them and so far, anything that brings in the traffic is fair game.
The fact is that *anywhere* you go work-wise, you have to compromise in order to make a living. (I'm not just talking about writing for a living, either.)
If I can (eventually) make enough to pay my rent every month from HP and other freelance writing jobs, I'll be happy. I can live with the fact that to do this, I'm going to have to write keyword-optimised "stuff" hubs as well as hubs about things that really interest me.
That said, it's a shame that Pam's taken her hubs off the site because I really enjoyed reading them.
Pam will do what she thinks is best for her and in my book, that's no bad thing. I know she's been struggling of late with her partner Bill's ill health and before that, her son was also unwell.
That's a lot of weight on her plate. Hopefully that aspect of her/their lives in on an uphill swing.
As for her removing herself from HP - I wish her all the best. I can see her point and perfectly understand what she's leaving for.
Let's all just send Pam on her way with a smile and thanks for her presence on HP - and not descend into finding fault.
She's a great writer and will continue to be so, wherever she chooses to lay her hat. Or her word processing skills.
Good luck Pam
Well said froggy! I was shocked to hear she was leaving and really just started this post cause I hoped it was wrong. I am going to miss her!
I second htis...
and I hope your husband is feeling better now also.
This going off topic but I have to ask....
Justine what is that emerging from your cushions? I have noticed this paw? emerging over the past few days on your pic. Seems sinister to me like an avatar possession or something Does your avatar need an exorcist?
its the more of my cat...maybe I should write a hub about it? ive been getting LOTS of questions. back on track...
He's better than he was but not quite 100%. He'll get there. Most especially when I get home and kick some soldier ass
@UW you are most certainly a writer of quality, much like Pam. There are many of you. And as Ryan has pointed out - many are little known, unsung scribes.
I also wish her well, but totally understand the need to step back and reassess what one is doing from time to time as life rears its meddlesome head. Everyone goes through phases of career and life when we divest ourselves of unwanted or burdensome things are reinvest ourselves in new things. Good luck Pam in your future endeavours and in your personal life.
It is also true that in the current economy, anywhere you turn including radio, TV, and even print books there are more and more ads for alternative ways to make money both scams and real strategies because there are so many people that are searching for ways to earn a few extra bucks. So we can let that get us down or we can contribute positivity to our world including Hubpages.
aaaa I'm gonna miss seeing her aroud I hate seeing good people leave!
That's a shame. I liked her work.
I'm doing both (commercial and pure writing) - I don't think it's an either / or scenario.
I wish her well
Well, that is partly what HubNuggets tries to do; promote new and quality writers on the site. I have to admit I haven't looked at the new hubs for a while, I used to spend so much time flagging spam that I got tired of it. I think I'll start doing it again. You do occasionally come across great stuff that way.
this is HP, most of us are here because we love to write.
the business end is a blend and something that must be learned. it is a good platform for thousands to see our work of which would be harder left on our own.
it really is a small team of staff. first and foremost they are a business and yet I do believe they've given us great tools to use however we wish. there is a wealth of amazing writers here. technology is rapidly changing and a business has to change to grow. hopefully quality writing will always be welcome here.
I hope so, because even though I have really tried and have some success with keywords occasionally, I just can't seem to totally understand SEO. Umm...I guess I'm considering myself a quality writer
I know that i will be eternally grateful for hub pages. Nothing ever stays the same forever, so i try to embrace it whilst it last, this has been a wonderful learning curve for me. Hope it never comes to an end, i love it. I have earned nothing yet except experience and encouragement xx
I've pretty much only written about topics that interest me here and I'm having 200 dollar plus months. I work as a freelance writer on the day-to-day and I can't tell you the awful, boring things I have to churn out.
Pam may be gone but she's not forgotten, nor is she inaccessible. I went to her profile and clicked through to the sites she is now writing on. I bookmarked them so I can return to continue to enjoy her writing.
Saw you there on one of them, Sufi. Excellent post about Universal health care and the treatment of Europeans as if they are children.
UW, congrats on your 100!
I hate Pam is leaving, too.
From my own experience as a freelance writer, it's true what others have said - sometimes you have to write about topics in which youi have little or no interest. Here at HP, I write some hubs with the intention of making money, and some just for fun. One of my favorite hubs is about the Great Dane as the ultimate lap dog. I'm sure it will never earn me a penny, but I loved writing it, and it has certainly brought laughter to readers.
I wish Pam the best in all her future endeavors!
lol - it is the same here and life goes on in the winter. Greeks change their tyres, for the winter, and use snowchains. Hardly difficult.
Mind you, the Greek drivers are pretty awful all year round
Missed you post, Herald Daily - Glad that you enjoyed the post. I was in a bad mood when I wrote that
I will miss Pgrundy, as will many of us. I do understand her demise, but I think many others don't. For you see, I once felt the same way - before writing became more of a need to pay ones bills than a need to express one's own self.
Many writers value the words they write far more than the income they might bring. The world is lightly decorated with such authors, and they bring us much memorable works, as all they create comes from their heart, with little or no concern for enumeration.
This is what I have always seen as the chasm between writers and authors. Writers are hacks that build content for the paycheck - authors do it for the good feeling it provides inside. They're artists that paint words on a page, and it becomes irksome for such an artist to be told they must switch around their words to make them more profitable or that they must be concerned with what they write to make a living.
An artist wants to express his or her self without care for the enumerations, as it kind of cheapens their art to consider them or work towards them. Any kind of artificial control from the outside is seen as a suffocation and this saddens the artist, to the point they feel their creativity might no longer matter - especially when they see others profiting more from their work - and yet - not writing anything that has meaning to them.
The wrong message is received from others - that one can only profit from stepping away from creative writing, and instead, writing around profitable ventures they have no love or interest in.
To understand it all, you must imagine yourself as a painter. You paint landscapes with staggering beauty, but you chose to sell them outside a small cafe in Nice, France because you like the atmosphere.
Some friends you know are also great landscape painters, but they hear that nudes are in the vogue in Paris, so they paint their best nudes and offer them for sale under the Eiffel Tower, as that's where other artists have been able to sell these paintings in good quantity.
You understand these artists are doing what they can to survive, but the purist inside tells you they have sold out. This, I believe, is what Pgrundy has experienced - as I have myself. And yet, I've found a way to cling on and remain ...
The trick is to separate the work. Some you do for yourself and some you do for profit. That's how I survive. Some works I have here will never earn me a dime and I don't care - I wrote them for artistic merit. Then there are some I wrote for pure profit, and those I see as bill payers, written to spec. I never write both the same day as I don the hat I want to wear each day and live in that world until the sun falls - this is how I survive between both worlds.
And what of all of the guru knowledge? Perhaps, for some it might be a smugness, but I'm not so certain this is really the case.
Go to a writer's convention sometime that surrounds a genre - such as a sci-fi convention or a romance writer's convention. There, you will find no competitive spirit. In fact, each writer will spend their time mingling around and sharing their techniques of their writing. They want each other to succeed - writing is not a competitive business.
When Stephen King beats out Dean Koontz for novel of the year he doesn't stand up and yell out, 'Yeah, in your face Dean!' and Dean doesn't yell out, 'You didn't deserve it!' Writer's aren't painted of such ink. As such, I see writers helping each other here to profit from their writings, just as they would elsewhere by presenting writing techniques that could help their fellow author.
My articles on writing are a prime example. I haven't made a single dime from any of them, and yet, they are my most precious possession to me, as many short story authors have messaged me to tell them how they helped to get them past writer's block, get new story ideas, or help them sell a short story they couldn't get to market. That, to me, is a big personal win!
Of course, there are those unscrupulous hacks who aren't authors. These are the people who have been sold by the internet ads ... write 500 words and make $500.
What makes these people unscrupulous to writers is the fact that these people have no writing ability and they are only writing to profit with no care for the craft.
To understand why this would upset serious authors, let's travel to another venue - the world of custom cars.
You spend many hours reconditioning an old Studebaker and have it looking like it did when it was first built - quite a feat, considering the car was nearly rusted away when you first saw it.
Next door, your neighbor buys a kit to put together a replica Studebaker. It's all made to be assembled with ease and requires little work. He then sells his car for a tidy profit and purchases another kit with no remembrance for the vehicle he just assembled. For him, it's an assemble line devised around profit with no care for what he's creating.
Again, this is the difference between writers and authors. Writers assemble words to get paid and forget the words when they move onto the next project and authors always carry the words with them that they worked so hard to produce.
And do I see a lot of kit assemblers here? I do see some, but I also see many artisans. And while some of these artisans are capable of producing many assembled cars a year I do think it's because they have honed their craft to the point where it comes to them more naturally.
Pgrundy left because she couldn't see a need for artisans to stand amongst kit builders ... but I see things differently. Without the artisans, there is no bar to create the standard by which art is judged. As such, every lost artisan degrades a sites promise.
Pgrundy (and others from the past) will be missed, but all artisans must know that there is a need for art and beauty in the world ... and that need is most present where the world can often look the ugliest. For, without beauty, what could we possibly use as a ruler to judge that which is just mundane?
I do hope Pgrundy (and others) read my words and hears them out ...
This site builds its credibility on the artisans, which is why we need them to stay on and create the ambiance and beauty they share. Without them, the site devolves to nothing more than a series of ads which become worthless over time.
But do you agree with my point about there being hundreds of other so called 'Artisans' who go unnoticed on this site? Pgrundy built up a readership of 2000+ people on this site, if she didnt write for money then that should be all that she needs. There are talented people on this site with 20 fans, as the same people who write on this site and post on the forum do not take the time to explore. The talent on this site is still there to be found by you and by me, instead of bemoaning the loss of a creative hubber.... why not go and discover some more? Here is one http://hubpages.com/profile/Russell-D it doesnt look like you have discovered this one, now go and discover the hundreds of others!
I don't think it's so much bemoaning the loss of a talented Hubber (although, of course, it's unfortunate to see her go). I think the principle and issues that appear to have led to a talented Hubber's disenchantment are worth discussing, though. It's a widespread situation with a lot of writers.
wow Yoshi, that is heartfelt knowledge and wisdom. thanks for sharing.
Based on what I saw of Pam's comments, I've never been under the impression the issue was about the reality that some types of Hubs earn more than others. She knows her way around the freelance world, and she isn't (I'm guessing) some clueless young idealist torn between choosing to be starving artist and earning a living. I could be wrong, but I was under the impression it was more that, along with that reality, has come an almost inflated focus on it, at least in terms of the "general flavor" of common talk/discussions about Hub-writing. Yes, the reality is what it is when it comes to earning money; but it is also reality that comparing some Hubs with other Hubs is comparing apples and oranges. One person may have a bunch of great apples, and someone else may have some really great oranges. I'm under the impression that Pam's complaint (and if not hers, then one I have, myself, although I don't focus on it much) has been that overall flavor of the message/attitude of people who prefer having a great bunch of apples that oranges just aren't worth anything or aren't any good. I think her complaint was more that so many people seem to have adopted the attitude that anyone who has oranges needs to figure out how to turn them into apples "because everybody knows that there's no way having oranges can ever be any good."
Sometimes some people actually do want oranges, and the person who has them can either sell them or give them away; but I'm under the impression that the issue for a lot of writers (even if I'm reading Pam's main message incorrectly) is just that it's just as misguided to think that apples are the only good thing anyone can have, as it is to think if someone is looking for apples they're going to buy oranges.
I don't think Pam had a problem with the fact that there's a bigger market for apples on a site like this. I'm under the impression it was more a matter of the overall message that oranges are worthless (when the only people they're worthless to are those who only value apples).
The fact that so many people, just on this thread alone, don't seem to get what Pam's gripe has been proves the point that people here either want to have nothing but those apples, or else already have nothing but apples; and are oblivious to the fact that there will/should always be valuing of oranges by someone (if not by the person who cultivates them them or by those who want them for what they offer). In other words, maybe the thing is this: "Hey, world, there are apples (a fine fruit), and there are marshmallows (pure junk) - but don't talk and act as if you don't know that oranges will always have lots of value to us (or as if people with those oranges need to smarten up and produce some marshmallows if they expect what they offer to be valued."
I don't think too many people on here are so stupid they don't know that working means doing stuff they don't like doing, or that freelance writing means writing stuff they don't like writing. What can be "de-motivating" to some writers is being sent the message, "You know what? There was a time when there was a use for the kind of writing you do, but these days nobody cares about it or wants to read it. "
I think the irksome thing for a lot of writers is that if you listen to SEO gurus and wannabe gurus you'd be under the impression they believe that really solid writing by talented writers has become obsolete. Writing, though, (at least the kind that's done by talented writers) is as much a part of human nature as thinking, itself; and for anyone who has known lots of life before the Internet existed it can seem quite clear that even with its size and possibilities, the Internet will never render excellent writing obsolete. Search-engine-focused writing is a new kind of writing, but it isn't the only kind of writing. Maybe that's what people old enough to have lived life without the Internet will always know, and those young enough to have never known life without the Internet haven't quite learned yet. Technology may change the way we live and work, but it isn't ever going to change human nature or "real" writing, done for the same reasons writing has always been done. Maybe people with writing in their blood need to learn that the Internet is not where their writing belongs. On the other hand, maybe the Internet needs to learn that until it matures and figures out how desperately it needs an infusion of genuine humanity and real thought it will never be anywhere near as powerful as it has lead a lot of people to believe.
Long before there was ever an Internet writers were making money with their writing. So, someone like Pam isn't willing to just go along with the program thus far determined by the Internet and search engines. I don't think anyone who feels passionate about the written word and about its role in society ever will. That may mean that more talented writers will leave, get more vocal, or make giant stinks; and it may mean that people eventually will get sick of searching for articles on generalized sites or in places where articles are only a few hundred words and are pretty much regurgitations of everything else out there on the same subject.
Freelance writers are not as opposed to earning money or using SEO techniques as a lot of people think they are. What most don't like is to be immersed in a Internet culture where people who barely write a paragraph talk about how to earn a living writing; or else people who focus only on marketing suggest that those who focus on writing change their ways and "work smarter". There's room in the produce department for both apples and oranges, and - really - everyone ought to figure out how to keep the marshmallows out of there.
Having said all that, most of us wouldn't take a job or hang out where the situation was one that went as much against our natures and personalities as the Internet goes against the nature and personality of so many "writer types". Still, the writing part of our personality gets drawn into the whole online writing thing; and we can discover that being in a situation that so goes against our nature and leanings just gets draining. I'm starting to think there will be a resurgence of the hatbox tied with ribbons and filled with handwritten prose (or at least printed out Word documents). I know that's where I seem to be leaning. (As Pam has been known to say, "sorry for the Hub" (here).
Here, here, Lisa. Well said.
And also to say, Pam's a bright woman. Think she has come to realize she'd be more respected (profit-wise, too) elsewhere, and for what she does well.
Yes. It's amazing what a person with a scanner and too much time on their hands on a Sunday evening can knock up...
Well said, Yoshi
Ryan: I get what you are saying, but I think that this is part of the problem. Most of us do not have the time to spend hours dredging for diamonds. The difference was, a few months ago, you could 'stalk' people on Hubtivity. I used to follow Londongirl, UW or Steve Rensch, because they had a habit of unearthing gems. I guess that it was a crude form of networking - if one of my favourite writers fanned somebody, I checked them out, and that is how the 'unsung scribes' of HP were found. If Pam, with 2000 fans fanned a new hubber, many of her fans would also check them out.
Now, I find that this is no longer possible - some of those people no longer frequent the site and others have less time for touring. The suggested Hubs used to be pretty good, too, but now I find that many of them are piss poor. Sadly, if the site becomes swamped by rubbish, the gems are harder to unearth.
Again, I have a different angle than you - I personally feel that the site now undervalues its authors, to use the Yoshi-ism, and many genuine talents have moved on
FD - The same with Greece - people get drunk, shout a lot and then dance. I have never seen a fight in a Spartan bar.
Ok, I've really been off too long and not paying attention. I was shocked to hear this.
I'm going to miss Pam. She was one of the best.
Yes, a bit petulant... But everyone has a choice to make.
I think what hasn't been said is that the amount of money a person earns from their writings is in no way a judgment of the credibility of their work. Some well-written articles naturally monetize while others never will.
Advertisers pay more for ads that sell their products, so if your writing doesn't fit what they are selling they show no monetary love to your efforts.
Again, that in no way shows a judgment to writers, as there are those here that could freelance and get paid extremely well for their efforts. However, freelancers are writing to markets that are looking for articles that will attract readers, and not so much for those that will attract advertisers.
This is the schism with Hubpages and other affiliate marketing sites, as one must determine if they will write for profit - for the art - or both.
Sadly, an artist must become a bit of a marketeer to do both and I can understand where many writers want no part of this - I know I didn't, at first. However, with bills to pay and mouths to feed, I had to concede that I needed to readdress my personal thoughts to profit where I needed to and also gave myself a venue for some self expression when I felt the need to be plain creative.
With a recession looming so hard on many of us there is this dark shadow that pulls many of us to concede they must write for money as well as self fulfillment - and that will change as the economy improves. For now, I tell all young writers to do what their heart will allow.
Good point - there are many ways of measuring success, things that drive us on as writers. Money is certainly one, and the joy of publishing thoughts and creativity is another.
For myself, as an academic writer, I like it when I am referenced in papers of people ask for permission to use my work in lectures. That makes writing the articles worthwhile, although I am not adverse to writing the odd commercial Hub.
I am guessing here, but I think that Pam was different - rather than a creative writer, she is an old-fashioned political journalist, from a time before soundbites and spin. The measure of a journalist is by how much debate they provoke - if articles are not read, then it is time to move elsewhere.
I think that the influx of idiots, whose idea of a comment is 'Your [sic] a poopyhead' didn't help, either.
Her work, I think, can best be classified as personal essays...and actually would be welcome in semi-commercial (or should I say mainstream?) literary magazines similar (because it takes quite a bit to finagle into these) to The Sun, The Atlantic and The New Yorker....as well as in online magazines in a blog format.
And I know her articles were well-read. They probably didn't amount to a lot of clicks. And yes, the trolls have made everything less pleasant (to say the least, ).
the creative writer/author can use his writings to advertise that which we love. although I don't have much of my creative writing here, I have decided to include some of it, because it's part of who I am... and I don't mind at all having my poem about a monet garden next to advertisements for monet paintings or trips to France.
although I haven't made much $ yet, my hubs about Paris and education are the ones that have shown some revenue. at least I've made something... and I know it will increase.
all of this talk reminds me somewhat of the pre-raphaelites and their opposition to the british art/literary society. and yet now, they are some of our most well known artists/authors.
Not to mention the immeasurable PR value writers like Pam bring to the site. I don't think many here actually appreciate what perhaps that has done for THEIR legitimacy as far as the ability for the site to get traffic and sign up new users.
Honestly, she was the reason I signed up.
Well, I guess now you'll have to give yourself a reason to stay? It's only rational. If you can't, then you will be leaving also? If you find a new reason for being here, then obviously we'll see you around the forums.
So, I guess the ball is in your court now, per se.
It's always sad to see someone of talent and who is well respected leave your community.
I did not come here to earn money, it would be pleasant to earn cash from doing what I like, but not pleasant enough to start working as a 'commercial' writer (would that suffice Sufi?) and have to concentrate on getting the right keywords worked into my hubs.
Having said that I have read various hub advice articles and they make sense, and when I have written a hub which I think may have legs for traffic, I will use a keyword search to see whether I can improve the keywords without changing the context of what I am, trying to say.
I'm a nooby still, but I seem to be getting some clicks and have started seeing a small income that, if it continued to rise as it has the last two months, may influence me to adapt to writing in the more commercial veins.
From reading pgrundy's resignation hub it's clear that she has other fish to fry and has income from her other writing projects, so why should she stay where she is working for very little.
As a business HubPages obviously need to attract hubbers who will bring in income, but perhaps if more non commercial writers would adapt their techniques to bring income, albeit maybe less than the commercial writers who write by design rather than desire, maybe then they would recognize the long term income streams that solid well written creative articles could produce.
I will give it six months to see what potential HubPages holds for me, then reassess the situation. I may also start another profile to only publish commercial hubs, in order not to confuse readers or cloud the waters.
Overall I am enjoying HubPages and have found it has produced a more disciplined approach to writing in me, so I'm not worried about how others view things, the garden's rosy enough for me.
Commercial/non-commercial - excellent suggestion, Agua
Glad that you are finding your feet at HP - the keyword suggestion is good and I tend to follow the same process of moving a few words around. However, some subjects are never going to attract more than the odd random one-cent click, but that is fine - if people read them then the Hub was worth writing
Well, I'll miss her for sure. PG provided an alternative voice. When I fist signed up, Hubpages was full of all kinds of people - people just trying to make $, and then writers who were just so good. Of course, there are still good ones here, but Pam was my favorite. bummer
I'll miss her, just like I miss Goldentoad. I wish that both of them had left a few "best of" on here to be remembered by and not burn their literary bridges behind them. Best of luck to Pam!
If Pam leaves there will be a real indentation in the list of good writers on hubpages. Pam's hubs and forum posts are always straight and succinct. I love the way she writes. I will miss her, a very nice lady our Pam!
I checked her out on the other site and it looks like she is at the start of something really good. The site is well managed and tailored to individual need. It is not standardised but has standards. It is making me think what a priviledge it would be to a member.
There doesnt seem to be the 'knifes out' syndrome - it is rather more academic. I quite like it where she has gone to. I might join, if they will have me.
That doesn't mean giving up hubpages... here is a different buzz, but I like the idea of the two sites....... thinking...ummm..
I will miss Pam here in the forum, and will continue to read her articles elsewhere.
I generally do not read entire threads, I did read this one. What struck me most, is the most "talented" writers who are mentioned in this thread are also big forum posters (in general). There are so many more talented people on this site, people who do not bother with the forums and have significant "followers". Take a look outside the forum "box" and you will find a good deal of great poetry, short stories, historical articles, etc. on HubPages.
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