I read that Pgrundy is leaving HP?
A little before your time, methinks, but this has been a long-running point of discontent ever since the first challenge. Hubpages used to have a unique balance of marketing-based writers and professional writers (before you all beat me up, I am not saying that marketers are not professionals, but I can't think of another term - suggestions are welcome!)
This was what made HP strong - you have the marketers attracting a good volume of traffic and the people like Pam and Theresa McGurk attracting repeat visits, for the long term. People read their work and bookmarked or were even inspired to sign up and begin writing. That helps to build your base of loyal, core customers.
The balance has shifted too far towards the marketing angle - Pam's argument was not so much about the monetisation but the way that the site no longer encourages writers. You are right in that there should for room for both, but it does not seem that way at the moment.
In addition, whilst we are all here for money, your point about writing about uninteresting things is a little unfair - when you have been writing for 12 hours a day, every day, for many years, then you have to have some interest in the subject or you have no motivation - much like any other job!
I usually respect your views and your enthusiasm, but politely disagree with you on this one - not everything is about monetisation and keywords. It is about the site having a long-term plan and maintaining a reputation for quality, something that does not appear on balance sheets but should lie at the core of any business plan.
The site is losing its best and most talented writers - that is not a good thing and it has little to do with petulance.hehe - I remember that forum post and even commented - it seems like ancient history, now! I still feel that this has not been addressed properly, or maybe I am turning into a stubborn old dinosaur
Sure - this all goes back to the original point - there is room for both 'styles' of writing, and HP was built upon both. However, the fallout from the first challenge (I allowed myself to become caught up in it, so the blood is on my hands, too), is still causing ripples as it created an artificial split in the community.
Put it this way - whenever I see a forum post asking who are the best writers on HP, you usually see a list of names including Relache, Darkside, Sunforged, MK, Nelle (and yourself
).
Absolutely no disagreement here - that is a stellar list of HP talent.
However, I see few posts including Pam, James Watkins or McGurk, for example, yet they are supremely talented writers and used to be included on any list of HP's finest. I am a member of another site with some HP escapees and the talent on there is frightening - Hubpages' loss, I am afraid
I guess that my point is that both 'sides' used to learn many things off each other, but it all seems to be one way. Only one man's opinion, so take that how you will
I am not trying to drag this down to personality politics, either, but I have a different viewpoint from you, although we do agree on many things concerning quality. I guess that most of my views come from experience in sales and retail - the balance is important in any business. Any business model that does not take into account core customers and the long-term will suffer - eBay take note!
Pam's beef is part of a wider picture - not just HP but the fact that the internet is full of crap and it is difficult for the quality to rise to the top - try looking at the freelance boards and it will make you weep. This is probably inevitable and a sign of the way that the internet is changing things, but it still sucks when you are a professional attempting to scratch a living.
One more point - adsense is not the only way to make money here - it is also an excellent place to advertise as a freelance writer, too. That is the main reason why I stick around
PS - Richard made the point about writing about uninteresting subjects - apologies. I blame the senility
I can remove the original egg on face smiley but have earned another one
David Russell is about to be fanned - I get your point about the encouragement and it is well made. Sadly, browsing HP is something that I do not have a lot of time for, and I think that many people are in the same boat. Work getting in the way of enjoymentHey Sufi, hope things are well where you are
What I said was "writers have to write stuff they don't really have an interest in so they can eat."
Didn't mean to imply they were uninteresting subjects which is a little different than the writer not having a real interest in writing them. Just sign up with Constant-Content and see what fills your email with suggested articles to write about. But if you want to eat, you have to write what people are searching for.
This question is for anyone, How many people do you know that make a living solely from writing?Hey Richard - long time, no see
I do!
I think the thing to remember is that it is not all about HP, adsense, Constant Content or whatever - there are still private clients out there, but they are increasingly difficult to find. I am fortunate in that I get to write about interesting subjects, rather than what is driven by search terms
Fortunately, there is more than one way to skin a cat!
Ryan: "I 100% share the frustration that not enough is being done to protect this site from low-quality content. I dont think that it has anything to do with whether something is creative or a marketing article, for me the issue is quality. Lindaoffigan is, in my opinion, the queen of the crap!"
I think that this is the crux - HP used to have a good blend of writers learning to market and marketers learning to write (Folks like MK and Relache are talented at both!) Now, it seems to be a little unbalanced - it is too much about breakneck growth without feeding the roots.
Still, change is part of life
Sufi you have hit the nail right on the head. I couldn't have said it any better. It is a sad day when writers of Pams caliber decide to quit Hubpages.
Sure, I understand you now, although some history and science books are underway so I can hopefully add myself to the ranks of people making money from stuff that I want to write
I think that we are all actually after the same thing - that is why I was careful to use the phrase 'artifical' divide in an earlier comment. I remember that great discussion we had, where Ryan, yourself and Sunforged were as concerned about quality as the more creative writers.
Sunforged - Cheers, buddy - I think that you hit the nail on the head. I have a great deal of respect for the 'hardcore' marketing writers - I appreciate that it is hard work and requires constant learning and some risk-taking. No problem with that - I see the relationship as a symbiotic relationship that everybody benefits from.
I guess that my particular beef was with the challenge - I remember Misha making a perfectly reasonable comment pointing out that some of the writers were a little unhappy and he was shot down in flames. That was the moment when I ceased participating in HP as much - there are other options out there.
This thread is turning into a good, old-fashioned display of HubloveAnd why not eh? About time, Man of Sparta!
How is your neck of the globe? I will be returning to Lisbon shortly. Providing the snow knocks it off over here
I imagine bad writers don't earn much either! So many complaints about why haven't I earned much, is HP a scam, and why am I not getting butt loads of traffic etc. This to me says, bad writer who doesn't care to improve and is just looking for a get rich quick scheme. Annoying little buggers
and sad if they are driving away the real talent here
I do not judge her decision, I will miss her tho! I found her input here on the forums to be very refreshing. I do find it sad to lose such a great writer and member here
I will miss her also. I didn't say you judged her, hope others won't.
I think a lot of people come here from the zillions of ads saying you can make thousands with google and think it will be easy. I don't think I could ever devote that kind of time as that's not my niche, but others become energized with that kind of writing and make decent money. But that doesn't mean others should be expected to write like that. I do feel the same way. HP has all kinds of writers and as far as I see in the description of what HP is, it's for people who love/want to write.
- lynnechandlerposted 14 years ago
0I never got that she was critical of me or others like me who write with the hopes of affiliate earnings and that in fact she was here for similar reasons. My impression was that its these hubs that took all of 5 mins to write that are aimed at selling alone that were the problem. I have rather enjoyed learning new stuff so that I could give something of interest associated to what I hope will sell. I am no Nelle Hoxie at selling with amazon... Yet
but I could not just throw together some crap in under 5 mins and expect anyone to read or buy anything from my hub. I may be wrong but it seems more likely that if you offer something new to a reader you might just make a sale, or click, or just get a nice comment or back link etc. I really don't think the problem was with writing something of value for sales but was lazy writing that offers nothing new with the hope of sales.
I wish pgrundy would stay, but it sounds like she plans on publishing her work. Good luck Pam, and you will be missed
.Pam emailed me yesterday to let me know that she has Left and has not been happy for awhile which has only emphasised by Bill her partner's ill health.
She maintains her involvement in the blogsite DropOutNation along with several other senior writers from HP.
She is a loss to HP and I'm sure this saddens everyone who has had the pleasure o knowing her.Sufi Hi....... You have summed it up perfectly
Cheers, Rob - How is the NZ summer treating you?
Hi Alexandriaruthk
PS Ryan - just realised that you have been here for 16 months, so you can ignore the comment about 'before your time.'
Where's the egg on face smiley when you need it!Actually I published my first hub just 5 months ago, so you were quite correct
- cosetteposted 14 years ago0
- cosetteposted 14 years ago0
there's over 100,000 writers. surely somewhere in there are some very talented writers.
I have seen a few very talented people here, as well as a few that are not exactly talented but who try really darn hard to write something with value! I like to think that I am somewhere in between
You should count yourself in the talented groupAnother talented writer
I guess its just as easy to find a talented writer as it is to find a disappointing writer
What appears to be coming out of this thread is a complete misunderstanding of what was mean by 'balance.'
There is some absolute crap on this site that is monetized and no doubt earns enough for those parties to feel like they are 'writers,' which many are not.
There also seems to be an 'understanding' that it is the role of those who write quality content to provide a platform for those I refer to above.
Loosing professional grade writers shows a problem within the site that appears is not considered to be of any consequence at the moment. A hell of a lot can be done to gain a more realistic balance; but in reality.... why not 'follow' the market, instead of growing the uniqueness of the site and in that respect establishing a horizontal market base as opposed to trying to please the google/twitter/facebook monopolies.
Perhaps such a task is beyond the management capabilities? It should always be considered that great writers are not bred here, they are already great writers, that when lost; are another site's gain. - Monetize that!
@ Sufi..... NZ Summer...It's getting hotter by the postAbsolutely... I agree... have to forgive my commercial strategic planning experience observing the shortcomings of an unbalanced site with what appears to only be a short term strategy!
- EmpressFelicityposted 14 years ago0
Pam will do what she thinks is best for her and in my book, that's no bad thing. I know she's been struggling of late with her partner Bill's ill health and before that, her son was also unwell.
That's a lot of weight on her plate. Hopefully that aspect of her/their lives in on an uphill swing.
As for her removing herself from HP - I wish her all the best. I can see her point and perfectly understand what she's leaving for.
Let's all just send Pam on her way with a smile and thanks for her presence on HP - and not descend into finding fault.
She's a great writer and will continue to be so, wherever she chooses to lay her hat. Or her word processing skills.
Good luck PamThis going off topic but I have to ask....
Justine what is that emerging from your cushions? I have noticed this paw? emerging over the past few days on your pic. Seems sinister to me like an avatar possession or something Does your avatar need an exorcist? 
So pleased that is your cat Justine ..... I was going to send you a food parcel
He's better than he was but not quite 100%. He'll get there. Most especially when I get home and kick some soldier ass
@UW you are most certainly a writer of quality, much like Pam. There are many of you. And as Ryan has pointed out - many are little known, unsung scribes.
- Crazdwriterposted 14 years ago0
aaaa I'm gonna miss seeing her aroud
I hate seeing good people leave! - Audreveaposted 14 years ago0
That's a shame. I liked her work.
I'm doing both (commercial and pure writing) - I don't think it's an either / or scenario.
I wish her well I hope so, because even though I have really tried and have some success with keywords occasionally, I just can't seem to totally understand SEO. Umm...I guess I'm considering myself a quality writer
because you are.
- poetlorraineposted 14 years ago0
lol - it is the same here and life goes on in the winter. Greeks change their tyres, for the winter, and use snowchains. Hardly difficult.
Mind you, the Greek drivers are pretty awful all year round
Missed you post, Herald Daily - Glad that you enjoyed the post. I was in a bad mood when I wrote thatBased on what I saw of Pam's comments, I've never been under the impression the issue was about the reality that some types of Hubs earn more than others. She knows her way around the freelance world, and she isn't (I'm guessing) some clueless young idealist torn between choosing to be starving artist and earning a living. I could be wrong, but I was under the impression it was more that, along with that reality, has come an almost inflated focus on it, at least in terms of the "general flavor" of common talk/discussions about Hub-writing. Yes, the reality is what it is when it comes to earning money; but it is also reality that comparing some Hubs with other Hubs is comparing apples and oranges. One person may have a bunch of great apples, and someone else may have some really great oranges. I'm under the impression that Pam's complaint (and if not hers, then one I have, myself, although I don't focus on it much) has been that overall flavor of the message/attitude of people who prefer having a great bunch of apples that oranges just aren't worth anything or aren't any good. I think her complaint was more that so many people seem to have adopted the attitude that anyone who has oranges needs to figure out how to turn them into apples "because everybody knows that there's no way having oranges can ever be any good."
Sometimes some people actually do want oranges, and the person who has them can either sell them or give them away; but I'm under the impression that the issue for a lot of writers (even if I'm reading Pam's main message incorrectly) is just that it's just as misguided to think that apples are the only good thing anyone can have, as it is to think if someone is looking for apples they're going to buy oranges.
I don't think Pam had a problem with the fact that there's a bigger market for apples on a site like this. I'm under the impression it was more a matter of the overall message that oranges are worthless (when the only people they're worthless to are those who only value apples).
The fact that so many people, just on this thread alone, don't seem to get what Pam's gripe has been proves the point that people here either want to have nothing but those apples, or else already have nothing but apples; and are oblivious to the fact that there will/should always be valuing of oranges by someone (if not by the person who cultivates them them or by those who want them for what they offer). In other words, maybe the thing is this: "Hey, world, there are apples (a fine fruit), and there are marshmallows (pure junk) - but don't talk and act as if you don't know that oranges will always have lots of value to us (or as if people with those oranges need to smarten up and produce some marshmallows if they expect what they offer to be valued."
I don't think too many people on here are so stupid they don't know that working means doing stuff they don't like doing, or that freelance writing means writing stuff they don't like writing. What can be "de-motivating" to some writers is being sent the message, "You know what? There was a time when there was a use for the kind of writing you do, but these days nobody cares about it or wants to read it. "
I think the irksome thing for a lot of writers is that if you listen to SEO gurus and wannabe gurus you'd be under the impression they believe that really solid writing by talented writers has become obsolete. Writing, though, (at least the kind that's done by talented writers) is as much a part of human nature as thinking, itself; and for anyone who has known lots of life before the Internet existed it can seem quite clear that even with its size and possibilities, the Internet will never render excellent writing obsolete. Search-engine-focused writing is a new kind of writing, but it isn't the only kind of writing. Maybe that's what people old enough to have lived life without the Internet will always know, and those young enough to have never known life without the Internet haven't quite learned yet. Technology may change the way we live and work, but it isn't ever going to change human nature or "real" writing, done for the same reasons writing has always been done. Maybe people with writing in their blood need to learn that the Internet is not where their writing belongs. On the other hand, maybe the Internet needs to learn that until it matures and figures out how desperately it needs an infusion of genuine humanity and real thought it will never be anywhere near as powerful as it has lead a lot of people to believe.
Long before there was ever an Internet writers were making money with their writing. So, someone like Pam isn't willing to just go along with the program thus far determined by the Internet and search engines. I don't think anyone who feels passionate about the written word and about its role in society ever will. That may mean that more talented writers will leave, get more vocal, or make giant stinks; and it may mean that people eventually will get sick of searching for articles on generalized sites or in places where articles are only a few hundred words and are pretty much regurgitations of everything else out there on the same subject.
Freelance writers are not as opposed to earning money or using SEO techniques as a lot of people think they are. What most don't like is to be immersed in a Internet culture where people who barely write a paragraph talk about how to earn a living writing; or else people who focus only on marketing suggest that those who focus on writing change their ways and "work smarter". There's room in the produce department for both apples and oranges, and - really - everyone ought to figure out how to keep the marshmallows out of there.
Having said all that, most of us wouldn't take a job or hang out where the situation was one that went as much against our natures and personalities as the Internet goes against the nature and personality of so many "writer types". Still, the writing part of our personality gets drawn into the whole online writing thing; and we can discover that being in a situation that so goes against our nature and leanings just gets draining. I'm starting to think there will be a resurgence of the hatbox tied with ribbons and filled with handwritten prose (or at least printed out Word documents). I know that's where I seem to be leaning. (As Pam has been known to say, "sorry for the Hub" (here).Or, to put it another way:
- did you make this?
OMG haha!!!
Well said, Yoshi
Ryan: I get what you are saying, but I think that this is part of the problem. Most of us do not have the time to spend hours dredging for diamonds. The difference was, a few months ago, you could 'stalk' people on Hubtivity. I used to follow Londongirl, UW or Steve Rensch, because they had a habit of unearthing gems. I guess that it was a crude form of networking - if one of my favourite writers fanned somebody, I checked them out, and that is how the 'unsung scribes' of HP were found. If Pam, with 2000 fans fanned a new hubber, many of her fans would also check them out.
Now, I find that this is no longer possible - some of those people no longer frequent the site and others have less time for touring. The suggested Hubs used to be pretty good, too, but now I find that many of them are piss poor. Sadly, if the site becomes swamped by rubbish, the gems are harder to unearth.
Again, I have a different angle than you - I personally feel that the site now undervalues its authors, to use the Yoshi-ism, and many genuine talents have moved on
FD - The same with Greece - people get drunk, shout a lot and then dance. I have never seen a fight in a Spartan bar.- cathinfranceposted 14 years ago0
Good point - there are many ways of measuring success, things that drive us on as writers. Money is certainly one, and the joy of publishing thoughts and creativity is another.
For myself, as an academic writer, I like it when I am referenced in papers of people ask for permission to use my work in lectures. That makes writing the articles worthwhile, although I am not adverse to writing the odd commercial Hub.
I am guessing here, but I think that Pam was different - rather than a creative writer, she is an old-fashioned political journalist, from a time before soundbites and spin. The measure of a journalist is by how much debate they provoke - if articles are not read, then it is time to move elsewhere.
I think that the influx of idiots, whose idea of a comment is 'Your [sic] a poopyhead' didn't help, either.Her work, I think, can best be classified as personal essays...and actually would be welcome in semi-commercial (or should I say mainstream?) literary magazines similar (because it takes quite a bit to finagle into these) to The Sun, The Atlantic and The New Yorker....as well as in online magazines in a blog format.
And I know her articles were well-read. They probably didn't amount to a lot of clicks. And yes, the trolls have made everything less pleasant (to say the least,).
Well, I guess now you'll have to give yourself a reason to stay? It's only rational. If you can't, then you will be leaving also? If you find a new reason for being here, then obviously we'll see you around the forums.
So, I guess the ball is in your court now, per se.
Commercial/non-commercial - excellent suggestion, Agua
Glad that you are finding your feet at HP - the keyword suggestion is good and I tend to follow the same process of moving a few words around. However, some subjects are never going to attract more than the odd random one-cent click, but that is fine - if people read them then the Hub was worth writing
If Pam leaves there will be a real indentation in the list of good writers on hubpages. Pam's hubs and forum posts are always straight and succinct. I love the way she writes. I will miss her, a very nice lady our Pam!
LOL Earnest, she left already
Thanks Misha, I will miss her.
- shazwellynposted 14 years ago0
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