Has Donald Trump done more for Christians than anyone?

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  1. dianetrotter profile image68
    dianetrotterposted 3 months ago

    Has he done more than Jesus Christ?
    Has he done more than Paul?
    Whom does he compare with?

    He said

    "Well they're going to show up for me because nobody's done more for Christians or evangelicals or frankly religion than I have. You've seen all the things that we've passed including the Johnson Amendment and so many things we've nullified. Nobody's done more than we have. Mexico City, take a look at that. Things that frankly until Ronald Reagan, nobody did anything. So, I know they're very happy with me. We've seen they're very happy. The question is whether or not they're going to go out and vote when I'm not running. I have no doubt they're going to be there in '20. I hope they're going to be there now because it'll be a lot easier if they are, a lot better."



    http://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/politics/20 … angelicals

    1. Annkf profile image93
      Annkfposted 3 months agoin reply to this

      As a Christian, President Trump has done very much for Christians in the USA.
      The former POTUS mocked the bible and Christians.
      While President Trump has prayer meetings in the White House and is bringing back freedom to say "Merry Christmas," for the holiday that is all about the Birth of Christ.

      Just those things alone have been a blessing to Christians.

      As for laws, President Trump signed an executive order giving more freedom to federally funded religious groups.

      order repeals Obama administration rules limiting the ability of groups getting federal funds to preach to those they serve. Under the Trump order, faith-based groups will no longer have to refer beneficiaries to alternative programs if they object to the religious teachings..

      https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol … 577171002/

      As for Americans, President Trump said that he is a nationalist. I stand with him on that. Here's why.

      Leftist MSM is pushing that "Nationalism is Racist." Nationalist simply means:

      na·tion·al·ist
      /ˈnaSH(ə)nələst/Submit
      noun
      1.
      a person who advocates political independence for a country

      Soros, and the majority of the democrat party are pushing for Globalism, which is defined as:

      1.
      a person who advocates the interpretation or planning of economic and foreign policy in relation to events and developments throughout the world.
      adjective
      1.
      relating to or advocating the operation or planning of economic and foreign policy on a global basis.

      As a Christian, I know who would love to have power over the entire world, as the leftist globalists want...and that is Satan.

      If you don't think that this is a battle between good and evil, think again.

      1. wilderness profile image96
        wildernessposted 3 months agoin reply to this

        If Trump truly is supporting the use of federal funds in forcing people to listen to Christian propaganda in order to eat, then it is not "for" Christians or anyone else.  It is also very much in violation of the intent of the Constitution, which forbids any such action.

        1. Annkf profile image93
          Annkfposted 3 months agoin reply to this

          Well, wilderness, Obama had set in place rules that prevented Christians for speaking under certain conditions. I don't think that atheists have any restrictions, and I wouldn't infringe on your right to say and believe what you want. Because it is an American right, I will use my freedom of speech and always answer, but never will I prevent you from speaking from your point of view.

          Although I'll always request facts...and not just flighty accusations.

          Tell me, what part of the Constitution forbids freedom of speech and/or religion?

          1. wilderness profile image96
            wildernessposted 3 months agoin reply to this

            I repeat: when federal funds are used to "captivate" an audience, as when soup lines (paid for with govt. funds) for hungry or starving people are formed, and includes a requirement to listen to a sermon, it violates the clause the govt. shall not establish a religion or prefer one over another.

            You can argue that until the cows come home, but legal precedent up to and including SCOTUS has indicated that govt. cannot perform such actions. 

            Now, should the church use it's own funds for that soup line they are certainly free to preach all they want.  But the whole thrust of your comment (I think) was that govt. funding is used to gather a captive audience.

            1. MizBejabbers profile image91
              MizBejabbersposted 3 months agoin reply to this

              Wilderness, get ready to fall on your fanny, but I am in complete agreement with you!. "Captive audience being fed with government funds" is the key here. Our Christian friends seem to think that they are entitled to do as they wish with government funds. That is how they see religious freedom. How about women's rights being violated in the name of religion carrying on business. I'm speaking of Hobby Lobby that objected to their insured employees being covered for contraceptives.

              1. wilderness profile image96
                wildernessposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                Ow!  My fanny hurts!  Don't DO that!

                Yes, the "war against Christians" always seems to come down to something like that - their control over others, or their "right" to promote their religion through governmental functions, buildings and money is being curtailed.

                (I'm against contraceptives being required on health insurance, too, but that's another whole topic.  Hobby Lobby objected on religious grounds, which I do not.)

      2. Jean Bakula profile image94
        Jean Bakulaposted 3 months agoin reply to this

        Nobody ever took away the right to say "Merry Christmas." This was a talking point Bill O'Reilly of Fox made up about 10 years ago. As a child and older, I often received cards that said-Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, and Season's Greetings. If you think of what we call Christmas Carols, those sentiments are also expressed in the songs. This is yet another false hoax perpetuated by Fox News. Nobody ever had a "War on Christmas." Many of us live in coastal areas or large cities where we have more people from different cultures, and try to include their customs with Christmas. Stop believing made up stories.

        Also, this is a secular country, and you can worship all you want, but many of us don't care, and are actually sick of hearing, about how Christian you are.

        Jesus said, "When thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and pray to thy Father, which is in SECRET." Why don't you do that?

      3. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
        Slarty O'Brianposted 3 months agoin reply to this

        Well. We can see you don't think much of your constitution.

      4. MizBejabbers profile image91
        MizBejabbersposted 3 months agoin reply to this

        "The former POTUS mocked the bible and Christians."

        More fake news put out by the Trump media. They took this from a long speech made by Obama in 2006, the gist of which favors separation of church and state because this country contains people of many faiths. This is a false claim according to Politico.

        https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-mete … hristiani/

        Christians actually make their own beds and expect everybody else to lie in it.

        1. dianetrotter profile image68
          dianetrotterposted 3 months agoin reply to this

          OK guys!  I got the answers!  Thank you!

      5. MizBejabbers profile image91
        MizBejabbersposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

        "As for laws, President Trump signed an executive order giving more freedom to federally funded religious groups.

        order repeals Obama administration rules limiting the ability of groups getting federal funds to preach to those they serve. Under the Trump order, faith-based groups will no longer have to refer beneficiaries to alternative programs if they object to the religious teachings."

        That one order alone is an unconstitutional violation of the separation of church and state. Christians want to promote their own beliefs at the expense of others. If their "Christian love" can't come without strings attached, it should not be federally funded.

      6. peterstreep profile image78
        peterstreepposted 3 months agoin reply to this

        The question should be reversed. Do the Christians in the US want Donald Trump as a President.
        Do they really want a strong blond leader with blue eyes?
        A leader who sees the media as the enemy of the state.
        A leader who want guns inside the churches and temples.
        Did Jesus want guns inside churches and temples?
        Did Jesus forbid freedom of speech?
        If you answer the last two questions with yes. Well then I presume President Trump is the one for you.

        1. Annkf profile image93
          Annkfposted 3 months agoin reply to this

          Hi Jean,

          You said:
          "Nobody ever took away the right to say "Merry Christmas." This was a talking point Bill O'Reilly of Fox made up about 10 years ago."

          That is simply not true. I wasn't speaking about cards. I was speaking about the stores that make their biggest profits off of the Christmas holiday. There absolutely was a big movement to say, "happy holidays," rather than "Merry Christmas." It actually was an issue for many years. I don't care how you want to twist it, I actually experienced it.

          http://www.nbcnews.com/id/28370145/ns/u … -ELDZNKgdU

          I also live in coastal area. I remember when my children sang songs about the birth of Christ in school. That has been done away with. Even you can't deny that.

          You said:
          "Also, this is a secular country, and you can worship all you want, but many of us don't care, and are actually sick of hearing, about how Christian you are."

          The majority of Americans are Christian, whether you want to admit it or not.

          Christian 70.6%
          http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/

          You wouldn't say that Israel isn't a Jewish nation, even though Islam is practiced there. Stop trying to rob me of my beliefs. That  freedom is contained in the "Bill of Rights."

          I'll sing, tell others about Jesus, carry my bible with me no matter where I go, whether you like it or not. smile

          "According to the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics (May 2003), Muslims, including Bedouins, make up 82% of the entire Arab population in Israel, along with around 9% Druze, and 9% Christians. Projections based on 2010 data, predicted that Arab Israelis will constitute 25% of Israel's population by 2025."

          In Brooklyn NY there is a daily call to Islamic prayer over loud speakers. Now that is intrusive.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOdDYS8PNPw

          You quoted Jesus:
          "Jesus said, "When thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and pray to thy Father, which is in SECRET." Why don't you do that?"

          It's hilarious to me, that you want to try to quote the bible, like you're really saying anything that means anything.

          You don't even believe in Jesus. So I ask, why do you think you hold any power by quoting Him?

          The passage you used is tied to a specific condition, NOT to telling others about the life that is in Christ Jesus.

          So don't try to go there...seriously.

          1. wilderness profile image96
            wildernessposted 3 months agoin reply to this

            "In Brooklyn NY there is a daily call to Islamic prayer over loud speakers. Now that is intrusive."

            More than the church bells next door?  Or the Christian on the street corner with a bull horn?  I think not.

            1. Annkf profile image93
              Annkfposted 3 months agoin reply to this

              I actually don't own a bull horn. I have also never heard church bells in the area in which I live.

              There's a woman by the name of Brigitte Gabriel. I happen to think she is amazing. She grew up in a nation that was once Christian (Lebanon,) and like so many today, her country welcomed Islamic people with open arms, but as Islam grew larger, things changed very quickly. When she was a little girl her home was burned to the ground. Her family had to hide in caves in order to stay alive. Below is a link to her explaining what happened to her.

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5-3mqDuj00

              I doubt you'll pay attention, but her life's work has been about informing others of what happened in her nation, and how it is playing out the same way in other nations right now, including the United States.

              Try not to use your disdain for Christians to push nonsense.

              In Iran, Homosexuals are thrown off roof tops.

              Just three days ago 7 Christians were killed in a bus that was heading to a church in Egypt.

              https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/1 … us-attack/

              In Pakistan, a Christian woman, who was on death row for "blasphemy," (because she is a Christian.) was finally acquitted. She had been imprison since 2010. When the people heard that her death sentence was overturned, thousands took to the streets demanding that she be killed.

              http://www.starbeacon.com/cnhi_network/ … dd9fe.html

              In the USA, A Christian refused to bake a cake for a gay wedding. Do you see the difference?

              If you don't see the difference, then I dare you to go into an Islamic establishment and ask them to make a pork dish for you. When you do that, come back and share your experience.

              There is absolutely no comparison between Christianity and Islam. I already know the arguments.

              Christians will stand for what the bible says, without a doubt, but I would have a gay couple in my home, and treat them with kindness. A christian's goal is not to "take over." The world is what it is.The greatest goal is to just be an example.

              The President speaks to these facts, and the globalist media calls him a racist and twists everything he says.

              He said he's a nationalist, which I was watching him speak when he said it, and he referenced it as being for our nation. It had NOTHING to do with "racism."

              Globalism, is far worse. It gives a few power over the entire world. Nobody matters to globalists. It's all about power.

              It's actually biblical and I know where it will lead.

              Try to use a little wisdom.

              Japan refuses to accept Islamic "refugees." Could it be possible that they know something you don't?

              1. wilderness profile image96
                wildernessposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                "Try not to use your disdain for Christians to push nonsense."

                Disdain for Christians?  Where do you get that from a recognition that religions other than Islam (including Christianity) make noise, too?

                But I will cop to feeling a little disdain for people, of any religion, that feel their belief is better, more important or needs special dispensation from the public. 

                The excuse that "there's a lot of us" does not give that right.  For Christianity specifically, it does not give the right to teach children creationism under the guise of science.  It does not give the right to plaster Christian icons all over public buildings and lands.  It does not give the right to demand that a school cease activity and turn to prayer, or that prayer be observed in public meetings or events.  It does not give the right to deny marriage to couples deemed "sinful" in your God's eyes.

                Consider that all of your examples occur in predominately Muslim areas, where Christians are a distinct minority.  You don't like it when a different faith takes control, but need to "clean your own house" before complaining.

                Freedom from religion is actually more important than "freedom of religion" for if we are free from it, we are also free to choose our own.

                "Japan refuses to accept Islamic "refugees." Could it be possible that they know something you don't?"

                Perhaps that Muslims have learned that freedom even less than Christians.  AND that a great many Muslims co-exist peacefully with other religions when their radical portions are excluded.  In that respect you might try a little wisdom yourself.

                1. Annkf profile image93
                  Annkfposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                  I'm guessing that you didn't even read my response.

                  You also added a point of argument that I actually even say.

                  But carry on with your Christian hating attitude. That's your choice.

            2. Jean Bakula profile image94
              Jean Bakulaposted 3 months agoin reply to this

              I really never experienced a "War Against Christmas."  I have sent out Christmas cards all my teen and adult life. It was never a real issue. They do say Happy Holidays and Season's Greetings, and always have. Bible scholars know that Jesus was not even born on Christmas, most think he was born in the Spring, due to the planetary conjunction the Wise Men saw in the sky. I know a lot about planets and have studied many religions. So don't get so bent out of shape. Calm down already.

              As far as stores, they start making Christmas commercial before Halloween now, and most make their most profit in the 4th quarter of the year. It's not about religion.

              It's fine with me a great percentage of people in the U.S. are Christian, or whatever religion they choose. Just stop feeling persecuted when you are not. And we should respect Jewish, Muslim, and other people's religious customs too. Christmas is becoming a more secular holiday for many families in the U.S. Or some Christians go to Church for Easter and Christmas only.

              I was raised by a Catholic Father and Dutch Reform Mother, who rejected their religions for reasons too long and personal for this forum. I did get to experience the Catholic Church as a child, and it gave me nightmares, so my Dad thought it best I stop going. I almost became a Baptist once. I did search all my adult life for a religion. Organized religion doesn't work for me. I also recall prayer in school and singing religious songs there. My best friend and I helped run a summer Bible school when we were teens. I have nothing against Christianity, I just don't believe it and don't want to be preached to all the time. How does that rob you of your beliefs? Believe whatever you want, but don't lie about it.

              I quoted the Bible, I didn't "try" to quote it. I actually read the whole thing and did a two year Bible study in my continued search to find a religion I believe, but have decided I am a Pagan. I am very familiar with the Bible. I can even find verses with meaning and wisdom in it. Did you ever read the whole Bible? I enjoyed the study and made a good friend over that time, even though I never came to see it her way. I don't believe in heaven or hell. I never believe what I haven't extensively studied.

              I do actually believe Jesus, the man, lived, and had revolutionary ideas. Wonderful ideas about love and the treatment of others. I do not believe he is the Son of God or in Virgin Births.

              The passage I picked was perfect. It's fine for you to practice your religion all you want. I hope it works for you and comforts you at bad times. But I don't need it pushed on me by Christians who want to pretend they are so persecuted. When I meet a person, and the first thing they say is "I'm a Christian", I know already they have an ax to grind.

              I wish you the Merriest of Christmases.

              1. wilderness profile image96
                wildernessposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                LOL  I think you replied to the wrong person - don't think there is a thing in your post that I would disagree with.

                1. Tim Truzy info4u profile image98
                  Tim Truzy info4uposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                  Hi, Wilderness, Jean, Christian Writings, and everyone else:
                  Early Merry Christmas to you guys! Lively discussion.

                  1. dianetrotter profile image68
                    dianetrotterposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                    Happy Thanksgiving too!

                  2. ChristianWritings profile image84
                    ChristianWritingsposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                    Hi Tim! Same to you! Have a blessed season (& lots of turkey) smile

                2. Jean Bakula profile image94
                  Jean Bakulaposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                  I was thinking the same thing! We both feel strongly about the secular nature of our country. And don't care what religion people are, but wish they would keep it to themselves.

                3. Jean Bakula profile image94
                  Jean Bakulaposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                  That is rare, we do agree on some things! I believe we need freedom from religion. It's important to remember this is a secular country, and we are hearing too much from Christians who think they are persecuted. I dislike the way they all think "their" church is the "right" one. It's oneupmanship.

                  The commercialization of Christmas is awful. When I was growing up, we put the tree up on Christmas Eve. When I got married, I began doing it about two weeks before, but don't even want to hear about it before Thanksgiving. This year I saw ads on TV for Christmas BEFORE Halloween. Ridiculous. Now I have stripped down all the nonsense, the expensive gifts and I make my own pine decorations, since I'm in the woods anyway. It gives me more time to enjoy the people I love.

                  I am sure I'll "see" you around before the holidays.

                  1. wilderness profile image96
                    wildernessposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                    We wait until after Thanksgiving to do anything.  Oh, we may keep our eyes open all year for a child's gift, and I may put up outside lights, but not turn them on, before the snow flies.  But the celebration does not begin until after T-Day.

                    1. Jean Bakula profile image94
                      Jean Bakulaposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                      I shop all year too, you never know when you'll find something good. Plus, it's not crowded then. Being at a mall in NJ beginning on Thanksgiving Eve, is my idea of being in hell (if I believed such concepts)!

              2. wilderness profile image96
                wildernessposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                LOL  I think you replied to the wrong post.  I support and agree with pretty much everything you've said here.

                (No merry Christmas here - I refuse to celebrate until after Thanksgiving.  The rationale being that if the season is too long it takes something away from Christmas; it becomes just another day and it is far too important in my life to allow that.  But if you won't use it until after T-Day, just set it aside and save it, I'll wish you one now as well. big_smile)

                1. dianetrotter profile image68
                  dianetrotterposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                  Wilderness, Christianity is based on Jesus being the only way to the Father.  We are to witness to others about eternal life through Jesus.  Of course, we believe Christ is the only way.  AND we should love others and share our hope in Christ.  We should not make funny of anyone or hate anyone.  Which religion do you know of that thinks all religions are right.  That's impossible.

      7. peterstreep profile image78
        peterstreepposted 3 months agoin reply to this

        Donald Trump is a symptom of the society. And he is not the only one.
        I don't think it changes much to rant against him. As he is using the polarisation and radicalism to score a point.
        Trump is an old king in new clothes. For millennia kings and the people in power care only about one thing. To enrich themselves.
        You see it all over the place. CEO's giving themselves huge bonuses and never raise the wage of the people on the workfloor.
        People in power give themselves huge tax cuts.
        When looking at politics, look where the money goes.
        So the last thing you should do is vote for a millionaire. Sadly enough one of the rules in the US is to become a president you need money. A rule that shows how corrupt the system is to start with. (and the US is not the only country with a corrupt political system...)
        Theme's like immigration, abortion, same sex marriage, criminality, they don't give a damn about these subjects. They only use them to get votes. But after they have there votes, they sort out financial benefits for themselves first.
        What about the Wall. Has Trump build it yet? Of course not. It's just a slogan used to get votes. He doesn't care about the wall. Only if he can make money out of it he does care.
        The whole immigration from Mexico is a profitable story. Tech firms are cashing in big time. It's about money never about people. Old story.
        I heard the US economy is booming. My question to everybody here is: Have you had a pay raise lately? Has your insurance gone down? Is the education fee gone down. Do you earn more and spent less?
        I wonder.
        I can not see how Trump is fighting for Christian Values if he is not helping the people in need, but instead enriching his friends.
        Is it a Christian value to promote more guns INSIDE the church and temples?
        We should take more care for each other. Not ranting but build bridges. We should try to help each other. Whatever the religion, political opinion, sexual preferences or different skin colour.
        In times where politicians and media start to polarize people the best weapon is not an eye for an eye but caring for each other, helping each other. That's where the real power is. Unite.
        The people in power don't want the "ordinary people" helping each other. They love to rule by divide an conquer techniques. And president Trump is a master at it.

        1. dianetrotter profile image68
          dianetrotterposted 3 months agoin reply to this

          Wow!  Thank you!  I couldn't have said it better if I tried.

      8. Tim Truzy info4u profile image98
        Tim Truzy info4uposted 3 months agoin reply to this

        Compared to biblical Christians, DJT has a lot to do. Compared with the Founding Fathers, he still has much to do. After all didn't they set up the whole nation because of a need for "freedom to worship?"

        1. wilderness profile image96
          wildernessposted 3 months agoin reply to this

          Ummm  no.  The rallying cry was "No taxation without representation".  It was about Britain governing as it wished, with no input from Americans.

        2. dianetrotter profile image68
          dianetrotterposted 3 months agoin reply to this

          I agree.  I heard a different reason when I started teaching public schools at 45.  The view was expressed by a teacher who said they wanted to promote their own religion..  Hmmmm..

          1. Tim Truzy info4u profile image98
            Tim Truzy info4uposted 3 months agoin reply to this

            You are right, Diane. They had plans. None of our politicians are greater then Him, no doubt. But here's something interesting, Diane, and to keep the topic rolling wonderfully along:
            Michael Pence and the evangelical right really need Trump and they supported him. I've read an article that suggested that they are willing to look over Trump's imperfections in the hope that he may be impeached or resign or something.
            King David in the Bible rose to power after the kingdom endured an atrocious leader.
            In essence, the evangelical right feels they need Trump to eventually get Pence in the White House. They see Pence as a great spiritual leader where Trump has failed in various ways. Although many equate Pence to being an outright Zealot and Zionist. 
            What do you think of that scenario?

            1. dianetrotter profile image68
              dianetrotterposted 3 months agoin reply to this

              I've thought of the same; however I've been embarrassed for him the way he gawks at Trump with admiration glistening in his eyes.

              1. ChristianWritings profile image84
                ChristianWritingsposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                haha I agree Diane... its very uncomfortable the way he looks at Trump lol

      9. Tim Truzy info4u profile image98
        Tim Truzy info4uposted 3 months agoin reply to this

        Yes, it was about G.B. that we fought the American Revolution, but religion was definitely in there. We have heard of the Puritans. Trump ain't one of those guys, but again, he is mortal. He is not perfect, and he is subject to our laws whether he recognizes that or not. I'm sure he prays to his version of a God.

      10. dianetrotter profile image68
        dianetrotterposted 3 months agoin reply to this

        What's interesting is the atheists who fully support Trump though he claims to be Christian.  Sounds like conflict of interest.

      11. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
        Slarty O'Brianposted 3 months agoin reply to this

        Trump IS the second coming of Jesus. Didn't you know that?  He thinks so anyway. I think he's a retarded clown.

        Trumpy wumpy wanted a wall

        Trumpy wumpy had a great fall.

        All the republican horses and all the republican men couldn't put Trumpy wumpy together again.

        Why don't you guys actually practice your constitution and keep church and state separate?

      12. profile image78
        Hxprofposted 3 months agoin reply to this

        Trump's comparing himself to other politicians I suspect.  Is he right?  I don't know, but I know he's doing a great deal to give Christians more time, though I don't think he knows that.

        By having a sovereignist (or nationalist if you prefer) in the White House is slowing down the continuing move towards a global government, which Satan will eventually use.  This gives Christians more time to get ready, spiritually.

        1. dianetrotter profile image68
          dianetrotterposted 3 months agoin reply to this

          So what do you think they will do to get ready spiritually?

          1. profile image78
            Hxprofposted 3 months agoin reply to this

            Hopefully, we'll all work out our salvation as Paul says in Philippians.  This is summed up for us in the book of James.

            1. dianetrotter profile image68
              dianetrotterposted 3 months agoin reply to this

              The two basic commanments are 1) Love God and 2) Love others as ourselves.. With all that is going on now, it doesn't matter how much we read if we don't walk in love for everyone.

              1. ChristianWritings profile image84
                ChristianWritingsposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                Amen.

              2. profile image78
                Hxprofposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                It's not about reading Diane, it's about knowing and doing: "cleansing ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit", "draw near to God, and he will draw near to you.....wash your hands you sinners, and cleanse your hearts you double minded". Both these are commands given to Christians, and they're must do for all of us.

                1. dianetrotter profile image68
                  dianetrotterposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                  True.. So many of us are concerned about what others are doing/not doing that we have not looked inward.

                2. jonnycomelately profile image81
                  jonnycomelatelyposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                  Hxprof, in your view Christianity might well be the most important factor in your life.
                  However, for many others in your country and world-wide it is not.
                  To presume that your's is the one and only valid path is one of the causes of dis-unity, not unity.
                  Freedom:  think about it.
                  Freedom of belief.  Freedom to choose.  Freedom to say, to feel, to accept, to reject, to like, dislike. 
                  Freedom is yours and mine.  Let's be thankful for freedom....we are indeed fortunate.
                  And freedom to accept that "my way" is true for each one of us.

                  1. profile image78
                    Hxprofposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                    Johnnycomelately: I have no interest in pushing anyone to embrace Christianity, none whatsoever.  By commenting on Trump "helping" Christians, I wasn't implying that others should share that belief or interest.

                    I hope that helps.

                    1. wilderness profile image96
                      wildernessposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                      If you commented that Trump has helped Christians I missed it and apologize.  But if you think he has, can you be more specific in what help he has given?  What has he done that has helped Christians specifically, more than any other group of people?

                3. Tim Truzy info4u profile image98
                  Tim Truzy info4uposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                  I wasn't going to return to the forums until later, but Christmas came early with the Dems reclaiming the House. This is important because mankind is fallible, and our Founding Fathers recognized this. That's why power must be shared. Now, these men and women must learn to listen to each other to accomplish anything. Good idea.
                  I was reading about His Commandments, and essentially, when you have conditional love, there isn't any. Since man is imperfect, preferring most often his animal nature over his spiritual one, given too much power, men will act like animals, regardless of party affiliation.
                  Perhaps, the games and names will end or at least decrease so governing can continue without posturing and bickering.

                  There is no White, Black, Asian, etc.  Heaven, but Satan will enjoy putting KKK members and those violent other groups together just for a laugh. If you can't get along with others here, God doesn't want you in His Paradise.

                  1. Jean Bakula profile image94
                    Jean Bakulaposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                    Good one, Tim. I can't believe this forum is still going. I'm happily surprised that regardless of what anyone believes, enough care about the spiritual side of their lives to weigh in on it, even as we can't push our beliefs or lack thereof on others. Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

      13. Jw Worcester profile image80
        Jw Worcesterposted 2 months agoin reply to this

        The question is has President Trump done anything for Chrisitans.  This is not a question of religious rights or lack thereof in our constitutional republic.

        As far as the real question I think Trump has only done well in the eyes of Christian and non-Christians alike who believe his political solutions are Christians only avenue for effectual influence in our country

        Unfortunately this paints a perfect picture for critics of Christianity.   And it also demonstrates Christians lack of faith in God alone.  And it fortifies the negative stereotypes of the church (justifiably often a valid reason for keeping "Christians" at arms length). 

        Just the tone of President Trump is contrary to what should be the positive loving message of the Christian  Gospel.  Our nation needs healing, not the President's abrasive messages to all of those who don't follow himin lock-step.  Even the God of Christ rules by the willfill choice and comliance of His Kingdom citizens.

        Every facet of American society needs the healing touch of God in our intwractions with one another.  And that needs to start in "safe" homes where every member of the family is valued.  The divisiveness in our societyis a lack of willingnessto listen and trut one another.  Unity is based on mutual respect which cannot exist in the "us versus them" dialogue that exits courtesy of Donald Trump.

        No matter the material benefits that seem to occur because of our President, the growing lack of civility in our country will take two generstions to reverse (once and if we start).

        I trust that God is a much better choice for fixing the core values of America than our broken politics.  Expunging every bit of Christianity from America will only hurt us.  No one is advocating the expunging of atheist points of view and displays in America.  Christianity can always only be a choice that should not be taken away.  We are allowed to have a point of view.  The constitution in no way states freedom "from" religion - get real!

        1. dianetrotter profile image68
          dianetrotterposted 2 months agoin reply to this

          I enjoyed reading! I have also maintained that "Christians" who justify voting for him because he is a "Christian", are not holding him accountable for Christian character and humility.  He doesn't even understand that all of us sin.

          In addition, if "Christians" voted for him because they wanted conservative judges and are prolife, they are expecting DJT to resolve the problem.  Christians get in trouble all of the time by trying to fix things rather than trust God.

          I'm not saying they should have voted for HRC.  I couldn't vote for her either.  However, they could have encouraged Christians to pray and trust God.  Many non-Christians know something about the Bible and bring up the contradictions.  It's like the ultimate paradox.

      14. The0NatureBoy profile image44
        The0NatureBoyposted 5 weeks agoin reply to this

        You asked, Diane, Has he done more than Jesus Christ?
        I say NO because nothing you say he said reflects "where the kingdom of God is" nor anything else concerning our reaching it.

        Has he done more than Paul?
        Again I say NO because, although somewhat altering Jesus' message, Paul did carry the message of the Christ to the gentiles and established organized churches, which was not the Christ's intention for thread church meaning "the called out from the world", since the church is the backbone of the west's civilized world. 

        Whom does he compare with?
        He compares himself with the illusional person "God" has purposed him to have before being elected in order to manifest himself as the person "God's servant Nebuchadnezzar", who was made to live like any other animal represents. Jeremiah spoke it in chapter 27:6 and since the United States is Mystery Babylon what happened to the king shall happen to him, although I believe he will go to jail first. It reads, "now have I given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant; and the beasts of the field have I given him also to serve him."

        1. dianetrotter profile image68
          dianetrotterposted 5 weeks agoin reply to this

          I can't argue with you Nature!  :-)

          1. jonnycomelately profile image81
            jonnycomelatelyposted 5 weeks agoin reply to this

            "What Has Donald Trump done more for Christians than anyone?"
            It could be hoped that such instability and narcissistic behaviour in one who has sat him/her self in the presidential seat would caution christians in their choice of a President next time.
            "So help us God,"  lol! If indeed it were a laughing matter.....which it ain't.
            All this could benefit christian- and non-christian  people enormously.

            1. dianetrotter profile image68
              dianetrotterposted 5 weeks agoin reply to this

              Our situation is hell right now.  800K people on shutdown.  It impacts their income, creditors, utilities, transportation, etc.  Grocery stores will not have business of 800K people.  Restaurants won't have their business for lunch.  Air travel has increased risk as well as other transportation.

              I'm sick of hearing him say stupid stuff in tweets and on television.

              The End!

              Now, Hi Jonny!

              1. jonnycomelately profile image81
                jonnycomelatelyposted 5 weeks agoin reply to this

                Impeachment of someone with NPD would be very difficult.  From what I have read about it on the Web, and from dealing with it first-hand, they have so much experience in avoiding culpability, everyone in the US if A will need to get very smart if you want to stop his world-dangerous escapade.

                1. dianetrotter profile image68
                  dianetrotterposted 5 weeks agoin reply to this

                  :-((

                2. The0NatureBoy profile image44
                  The0NatureBoyposted 5 weeks agoin reply to this

                  There is one easy way to impeach the president and congress. All foreign wars beginning in 1898 until today, except maybe KOREA, were caused by a US act of treason and the Constitution's voice concerning Treason reads [Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court] which means to pardon a president who pardoned an act of treason like 9/11 was have committed treason and most people in congress were in during Obama's terms. NEED I SAY MORE?

    2. wilderness profile image96
      wildernessposted 3 months ago

      Unless a President, or anyone else, actively promotes freedom of, and from, religion I'm not much interested.

      To do anything else "for Christians" is not something I can generally support, particularly as that always seems to mean taking freedom of belief from others to promote Christian beliefs country wide.  The huge fight to deny gay marriage is one such example.  Prohibition was another, as were blue laws, no alcohol sales on Sunday, etc.

    3. Aime F profile image83
      Aime Fposted 3 months ago

      Maybe he is Jesus. Has anyone ever even seen them in the same room?

      1. Live to Learn profile image82
        Live to Learnposted 3 months agoin reply to this

        If true then the Shroud of Turin must be a hoax. And I was so sure.

      2. Annkf profile image93
        Annkfposted 3 months agoin reply to this

        I assure you, President Trump isn't Jesus. He's a man being used by God for sure.

        Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but by Him.

        1. Aime F profile image83
          Aime Fposted 3 months agoin reply to this

          Ah, well if Trump is God’s puppet then that certainly solidifies my atheism.

          1. Annkf profile image93
            Annkfposted 3 months agoin reply to this

            That's interesting, have you always been an atheist? Or did you come to that decision later in life? I've met a few atheists who were formerly Christian.

            1. Aime F profile image83
              Aime Fposted 3 months agoin reply to this

              I was a Christian when I was a kid/in my pre-teens. As I got older I grew out of it.

              1. Annkf profile image93
                Annkfposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                I hope you grow back into it. smile
                You seem nice.

                I walked away for a lot of years too.

        2. peterstreep profile image78
          peterstreepposted 3 months agoin reply to this

          God works in mysterious ways.

      3. ChristianWritings profile image84
        ChristianWritingsposted 3 months agoin reply to this

        I'm Christian, born and raised, and I think Trump is NOT Christain. Maybe he is being used by God, who knows, but he definitely isn't Christian - he doesn't display any Christian values. He spews hate, and thats certainly not Christian.

        1. Annkf profile image93
          Annkfposted 3 months agoin reply to this

          What are Christian qualities?

          One thing that I personally cherish is being real. Not acting, not pretending to be perfect when I'm not.

          I'd rather have a person close to me who is real, that way I know what to expect. Actors and pretenders are far less trustworthy, because they aren't even honest with themselves.

          At least with Trump, he's real.

          1. ChristianWritings profile image84
            ChristianWritingsposted 3 months agoin reply to this

            You're right, he's about as real as a cheating husband who sleeps with pornstars and sexually harrasses women.

      4. MizBejabbers profile image91
        MizBejabbersposted 3 months agoin reply to this

        Or Elvis? Has anyone ever seen them in the same room?

        1. Tim Truzy info4u profile image98
          Tim Truzy info4uposted 3 months agoin reply to this

          Or Ray Charles. Has anyone ever seen them in the same room? (Never mind, scratch that. Ray would probably notice and probably leave back to the grave. Hmm.)

    4. Oztinato profile image55
      Oztinatoposted 3 months ago

      Jesus healed the disabled but Donald mocked the disabled. Total opposites.

      1. JAKE Earthshine profile image78
        JAKE Earthshineposted 3 months agoin reply to this

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX9reO3QnUA

        I'm pretty sure my bible tells me that Jesus would never operate a "FAKE" university either,  a place where susceptible elderly people and the under-educated were apparently targeted according to reports, and then fleeced of their life savings amid broken promises like Donald and his mega-corrupt family did according to past court complaints filed against them:

        Seemed like a Bernie Madoff type scam, and who knows, maybe he's who they got the sinister 'get rich quick scheme' idea from:

        Just another reason of hundreds why REAL Christians who plan on going to heaven not the other place down south when they are called home, stay clear of the Trumps because they surely understand that Donald and repulsive unholy preachers such as Jerry Falwell Junior along with complicit republicans in congress who say and do nothing about the mega-corruption and inhumanity, are nothing more than spineless cowardly charlatans who walk the path of darkness and fire, not the righteous path of light and honor:

        "Trump University: It’s Worse Than You Think"

        https://www.newyorker.com/news/john-cas … -you-think

        1. MizBejabbers profile image91
          MizBejabbersposted 3 months agoin reply to this

          Hey! What do you mean "down South"? Don't you know better than to insult us Southerners!
          Unfortunately, "down South" IS the Bible Belt, I'm ashamed to say. So would you please reword that to "down below". That's what I was taught to say here in the South when speaking the "H" word. LOL

        2. ChristianWritings profile image84
          ChristianWritingsposted 3 months agoin reply to this

          Yes, true Christians (the ones with brains) steer clear from Trump and his corrupt family, who ironically were once German immigrants...

      2. Annkf profile image93
        Annkfposted 3 months agoin reply to this

        The media exaggerated it. I've actually looked at people and said things like "Duh," who hasn't? Who is perfect?

    5. emge profile image63
      emgeposted 3 months ago

      How can one compare Trump with Jesus? One is image of god and other a petty human

      1. JAKE Earthshine profile image78
        JAKE Earthshineposted 3 months agoin reply to this

        There is no comparison between Jesus and Donald: One represents light and love and the other represents hate, paranoia, racism, violence, and darkness:

        1. ChristianWritings profile image84
          ChristianWritingsposted 3 months agoin reply to this

          absolutely.

          1. JAKE Earthshine profile image78
            JAKE Earthshineposted 3 months agoin reply to this

            Agreed ChristianWritings: It's remarkable to watch, Satan turning otherwise good people BLIND to the truth and light just as he did with Nazi Germany:

            Unfortunately, the forces of darkness have infiltrated our ultimate power here in the USA and history dictates it may require a mighty struggle from the righteous to finally expel him and his minions:

      2. Annkf profile image93
        Annkfposted 3 months agoin reply to this

        emge, Exactly true. smile just like all of us. Only Trump was elected President of the United States, and most of us will never be elected to that office.

        I voted for him the first time, I'll vote for him in 2020 as well.

      3. Tim Truzy info4u profile image98
        Tim Truzy info4uposted 3 months agoin reply to this

        Good point. Don't forget, for the duration of his ministry, Jesus was homeless by choice. What of the homeless without choice in America? Jesus crossed many borders and offered His universal healthcare through Love.
        This is not making a political stance on anything, just if DJT really looked closely at Jesus, he would be quiet or call Him a left leaning radical. To the Romans and the established Jewish priesthood, He was.

        1. ChristianWritings profile image84
          ChristianWritingsposted 3 months agoin reply to this

          Spot on.

    6. Annkf profile image93
      Annkfposted 3 months ago

      That's a very generalized statement. It has no foundation whatsoever.

      Making statements without any proof, would be a better definition of darkness.

      1. JAKE Earthshine profile image78
        JAKE Earthshineposted 3 months agoin reply to this

        Are you serious? How many examples of Trump's darkness would you like? I'm not sure I have a few years to take the time to post them all, but here's just one example of not only his disturbing darkness, but his retardation, uncontrollable fits of anger and just plain despicable behavior:

        I know the republican party is rapidly shrinking because of him, but how anyone can still be a 'follower' of his is just unimaginable:

        But then again, that eerily creepy 'Space Ships of Salvation' guy Marshall Applewhite actually induced many lost souls to drink the koolaid so I guess anyone can manage to bamboozle a flock of gullible humans if he or she tries:

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PX9reO3QnUA

        Although Marshall Applewhite was much more intelligent and articulate than "Stubby" Trump, there are many similarities between the two madmen:

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6IAf_y8pQc

        1. Annkf profile image93
          Annkfposted 3 months agoin reply to this

          Hi JAKE Earthshine,

          Yes, I'm very serious.
          Are you a Christian? Because that is the perspective that I'm coming from. Not to mention discernment.

          I don't care about videos, but your point of view.

          I've heard it all really, and I simply don't agree with all of the anti-Trump nonsense.

          I come from a Christian perspective and a biblical perspective.

          So yes, I'm VERY serious.

          1. JAKE Earthshine profile image78
            JAKE Earthshineposted 3 months agoin reply to this

            Of course you don't care about film footage depicting Donald and all his darkness because it proves the fact that Donald Trump is about as Christian as Lucifer on a bad day:

            But here's just another example of his violent nature and incitement:

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWSC1OBXaDk

            1. Annkf profile image93
              Annkfposted 3 months agoin reply to this

              For the sake of answering, I clicked on the video, and it's something that I saw as it happened. This was a Trump rally, violent leftist showed up, started attacking people, and it's not because of President Trump, it's the half truths that the media pushes.

              Plus, I gotta ask you Jake Earthshine, Have you ever heard  of self-accountability?

              It seems that you are buying into the excuses that the leftist MSM is feeding you, to act out against others, and then blame others for your own actions.

              As a Christian, I can tell you that when Cain slew his brother Abel, he himself lashed out, and he himself was held accountable.

              That video actually proves my point...try harder please?

              Also, stop trying to feed me the leftist P.O.V. which is prevalent.

              Speak from your own actual understanding.

              1. JAKE Earthshine profile image78
                JAKE Earthshineposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                And you seem to be 'buying into' the phony "MAGA" nonsense Donald Trump and the rest of the right wing extremists are peddling, same as nazis did in the 1930's and 40's and by the way, my relatives who were part of the allied forces of good, battled in WW2 to defeat the nationalists like Bozo Trump, Steve Bannon and Stephen Miller who to this very day is STILL employed at our white house:

                1. Annkf profile image93
                  Annkfposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                  Can you give examples of  the "Nazi," right wing extremism?

                  I can give examples of how the democratic politicians are using Nazi type tactics.

                  I'm not calling you a "NAZI" Earthshine. I'm certainly not one, but the only way I can really answer you is if you provide actual examples that you've personally looked into.

                  1. JAKE Earthshine profile image78
                    JAKE Earthshineposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                    YES, I can give many examples of Bozo Trump's nazi tendencies but not here to you because I already sense a 'fact denier' which means regardless of the number of fact based examples I give you, just like the previous film footage which clearly depict Donald Trump in his dark behavior, you'll simply deny the existence of said evidence so no, I don't play that game any longer with right wing conservatives becaue it's an exercise in futility:

                    And although his followers are rapidly shrinking in numbers, I now realize that mentally disturbed Donald Trump truly can shoot someone on 5th avenue and still maintain a tiny yet solid core of sheep, after all, he's already done worse than that and a few still remain loyal, for what reason, who knows and who really cares at this point:

                    1. Annkf profile image93
                      Annkfposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                      How very interesting. You just gave an example of fake news.
                      Trump will not cut benefits to the elderly.
                      In fact, I did a check on the very liberal "Snopes," website...here's what it says:

                      "Did Donald Trump Say He Will Cut Social Security?
                      The unveiling of a Republican plan to "permanently save Social Security" by cutting some benefits has some wondering what will happen next."

                      Answer: FALSE.

                      https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump … -security/

          2. jonnycomelately profile image81
            jonnycomelatelyposted 3 months agoin reply to this

            And that "christian perspective" blinds you? You are sitting in the carriage being drawn by a horse.  All you can see is the rear end of the horse.  You think the charriot has some kind of magical jet propulsion?
            Christianity and the bible play hide-n-seek in human minds.

            1. Annkf profile image93
              Annkfposted 3 months agoin reply to this

              I'm sorry you feel that way Jonnycomelately,

              Do you think it's possible that I can experience something that you can't relate to and vice versa?

              You have this image of who I am, who I believe, and why I believe as I do. Could you possibly consider that you may not know?

              1. jonnycomelately profile image81
                jonnycomelatelyposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                We can only know you, Ann, by what you post here.  You show us the side of your life and your way of thinking that you want us to see. 
                Here you see my skeptical, satyrical perception of intentionally blind religious thought, by those who think they are blessed by a non-existent deity.

                1. Annkf profile image93
                  Annkfposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                  jonnycomelately,

                  That's true, we can only know one another by what we share. How do you know that, in your words, I'm a "intentionally blind," thinker.

                  I actually used to think the same way, but then I came to the realization that it was my own closed mind that prevented me from seeing the truth. smile

                  It takes a very open mind to begin seeking the truth. It's far more intelligent to not simply write something off when we actually don't know what's behind it at all.

                  1. jonnycomelately profile image81
                    jonnycomelatelyposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                    Yet you presume, Ann, that your beliefs in your God and your bible are all about the truth which you have decided to accept; and that those "truths" must apply to everyone else - and the destiny of your country. 

                    Correct, I don't know that you are a blind thinker.  Make that judgement of your self for your self.

                    We all can do the same.

                    1. Annkf profile image93
                      Annkfposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                      Actually, that's not a correct assumption.
                      My beliefs have nothing to do with it. The truth has everything to do with it, and I couldn't begin to go into that with you as you already reject the truth.

                      You may call me what you will, but I will maintain that it is you who is closed minded because you won't even consider possibilities beyond what you can see, touch, and smell.

                      I sure wish you would consider, and maybe admit that there are things that you just don't know, or understand. I have to tell you that one day, you'll know that I'm telling you the truth. This is not an opinion. It's a fact that is more solid than the ground you walk on.

                      Just so you know, if you'd ever like to talk more on this subject, feel free to message me.

      2. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
        Slarty O'Brianposted 3 months agoin reply to this

        Well that's all Trump does. He can't tell the truth. He's a lying sack of shit.

        1. jonnycomelately profile image81
          jonnycomelatelyposted 3 months agoin reply to this

          What worries us more is the advisors stacked behind him  -  annonymous group of individials with ulterior motives.

          1. dianetrotter profile image68
            dianetrotterposted 3 months agoin reply to this

            Hi jonny!  It's been more than a year.  Great to hear from you!

          2. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
            Slarty O'Brianposted 3 months agoin reply to this

            Well exactly. His base are people like the KKK and other fundamentalist Christians as well other fanatics and ultra right conservatives. He's in love with dictators and clearly wants to be one. It astounds me that apparently close to 50 percent of US citizens don't see this guy as a danger the likes of which they've never known.  Trump is Putin's puppet. Reagan must be rolling in his grave looking for his gun. Not to mention McCarthy.

            I can only hope Muller is allowed to finish his job. .
            .

    7. Annkf profile image93
      Annkfposted 3 months ago

      I'd also like to ask you Jake Earthshine, If it is at all possible to have a reasonable conversation without all of the name calling, and anti-Trump slang? I mean, it really doesn't help your cause.

      Just saying...

      1. JAKE Earthshine profile image78
        JAKE Earthshineposted 3 months agoin reply to this

        It does indeed help my cause and if my recollection is correct, you asked for proof of Donald Trump's 'darkness' and anti-Christianity and I'm simply providing you with facts in the form of film footage to prove he's the most unholy individual to ever be perched in our oval office and we'll just get much more of his darkness, violence, paranoia and insanity like he and republicans sabotaging our healthcare system and caging innocent children if republicans maintain control of congress on NOV 6th:

        1. Annkf profile image93
          Annkfposted 3 months agoin reply to this

          You provided an Inside Edition clip...I saw the actual event play out. Leftists showed up and begin attacking Trump supporters. There's zero excuse for it.
          The actual violence is coming from the left. The only times I've seen any violence from the right, is when they fought back against leftists attacking them. I stand against violence on either side. It's completely unacceptable.

          Now if you want to talk about healthcare systems. Since Obama-Care came into play, my insurance premiums skyrocketed to the point that I skip groceries for a week out of each month. I  pay incredibly high premiums (higher than my house payment,) and I have far less coverage.

          Obama actually "caged," children,and even handed them over to traffickers. If you don't believe me...check Snopes. Also, most of the "kids in cages," that MSM has been pushing, were taken from people who were proven to not even be related to them. Would you have rather let those innocent children be trafficked like Obama did?

          Everyone check it.

          You seem to be deliberately in the dark, while you accuse others of being there. You've covered your own eyes, and let the root of bitterness grow up in your heart.

          1. JAKE Earthshine profile image78
            JAKE Earthshineposted 3 months agoin reply to this

            * Everyone knows the violence comes from Bozo trump's office and the right wing republicans:

            * ObamaCare covers ALL Illnesses and pre-existing conditions so if your current policy has LESS coverage you should check it, it could be one of Bozo trump's "JUNK" insurance policies that are a little less expensive, but cover far less: Trump's "JUNK" health insurance policy is about as useless as a "Trump University Diploma"

            * Your health insurance premiums just like mine, are skyrocketing because Bozo Trump without haste and without regard for human suffering, terminated subsidies which were used by impoverished Americans to purchase health insurance and he also removed the mandate hence, less Americans paying insurance premiums hence yours and my health insurance premiums are skyrocketing:

            But don't worry, if republicans maintain complete control of congress after NOV 6th, they will simply continue to sabotage our entire healthcare system bringing us backward to square one in the stone age:

            BTW, if you have parents or aunts and uncles brothers or sisters, Mitch "Mutt" McConnell and his republicans have already vowed to SLASH their medicare and social security just so weirdo Steve Mnuchin can buy a few more mansions:

            1. Annkf profile image93
              Annkfposted 3 months agoin reply to this

              I'm so sorry Jake Earthshine,

              I had to giggle as I read your comment, as it's worded in a way that I see with every anti-Trump person.

              You know, I wasn't a big fan of Obama's. I didn't vote for him, but I accepted the results of the election and I respected the office in which he occupied.

              I don't recall ever walking past a car that had an Obama bumper sticker and feeling the desire to key it. Nor did I ever feel  the desire to assault a person for wearing an Obama T-shirt.  I even prayed for him.

              I honestly, was happy when he left office, but during his time in office, I automatically accepted that he was my president, and I respected that he was.

              You  are telling me that i should be paying lower rates for my health insurance, but there are no lower rates.

              Before Obama care was in place, I took some medical classes. One of the things that I learned is that the middle class Americans get the highest costs when it comes to health insurance. The very wealthy doesn't have to worry much about it, and the very poor doesn't have to worry because the middle-class pick up the huge losses that doctors and hospitals incur.

              When Obama Care kicked in, that entire system did NOT change. It only added financial burdens to the middle class, and premiums went sky high to cover, not only the needs of people sneaking into our nation, but also to help America's poor. The more people who have needs, the higher the premiums climb for the middle class. Don't think I didn't spend months researching my options.

              With the high premiums currently in place, the more people who come in and draw on our healthcare system, the higher the cost rise for the middle class.

              I honestly don't mind paying a little higher to help fellow Americans get the help they need.

              If the borders were suddenly opened, there would be a rush of people from different nations coming into the USA, because who doesn't want to live here? Under that type of situation, the entire Obamacare system would collapse.

              The first people to feel it would be America's poor. Our policies already offer free healthcare to people who come into the nation illegally, and they would continue to get that care before American homeless people, and families who are currently in poverty in our country.

              Obama's policies are what drove costs as high as they are, and his open border policies (or Catch and release,) will collapse under the globalist agenda.

              People are not going to continue working to pay for housing, medical, and the education of millions of others when the cost is so heavy on them. When nobody wants to work to pay for all of this "stuff," where do you think the money will come from?

              People keep saying, "we can afford it." No we can not.

              That is the problem with socialism.

              People like to say that Social Security for the elderly and disabled is "socialism." It's not, it's different in that those who are elderly drawing Social Security paid far more into it during the years that they worked.

              With Socialism, a person who doesn't work purposely, still gets paid, at the cost of the hard work of others.

              I agree Social Security shouldn't be touched. Our elderly need to be taken care of.

              P.S. Obama Care is still in place, the democrats will not allow any positive changes. Paul Ryan, a Rino....made sure that Obama Care have very few changes.

              You can't possibly blame President Trump for that. The democrats are obstructing just about everything President Trump does, and even through that, he's accomplished more than any other POTUS in our lifetimes.

              Right  now our economy is fantastic. I'm seeing "Help Wanted," signs all over the place, and our unemployment is at record lows.

              If the democrats take over, say goodbye to our outstanding economy.

              1. JAKE Earthshine profile image78
                JAKE Earthshineposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                If you don't want social security and medicare to be 'touched' you must VOTE Blue across the board and that's just a simple fact because here's exactly what will happen if we continue to give an insane unholy madman megalomaniac like Bozo Trump and his complicit republicans COMPLETE Power as they have right now:

                The elderly guy who will be leading the way to push your family members into poverty by SLASHING their social security and medicare benefits is Kentucky Republican Mitch McConnell who drove Kentucky into the 5th poorest state in the union:

                "As GOP Moves to Cut Medicare and Social Security, 60% of Americans Say Repeal Trump Tax Scam Instead"

                "Working families shouldn't have to pay for the GOP tax bill. The rich and big corporations must pay their fair share of taxes!"

                https://www.commondreams.org/news/2018/ … p-tax-scam

                "U.S. Census Bureau: Kentucky has Fifth-Highest Poverty Rate in the Nation"

                http://www.wkyufm.org/post/us-census-bu … n#stream/0

                1. Annkf profile image93
                  Annkfposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                  What's really unsettling is that, for most American children, the idea of growing up and becoming President of the United States, is a dream.

                  When an outsider finally does it, those who have been in control for far too long actually rise up against the person we chose to represent us. Nobody who goes against the globalist agenda will ever be accepted by the powers that be.

                  John F. Kennedy tried to warn us. He even asked for our help in showing others what was happening. Now it's right out in the open...and people are standing against the freedom of our nation. The video is less than 2 minutes long. In his own words. Please, at least give it a chance. Give him a chance to tell you. He was killed for it.

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y08pJiNS8mk

    8. NessMovieReviews profile image91
      NessMovieReviewsposted 3 months ago

      Hahaha Aime.

    9. Melissa Meadow profile image85
      Melissa Meadowposted 3 months ago

      A person that openly mocks, ridicules, and badmouths his fellow Americans... a person that has unmarried sex with a porn star...a person that openly brags about grabbing women by their privates...using the same mouth that brags about doing such unauthorized things to women to then claim/brag that he is a follower of Christ has no merit, in my small opinion, of making such a claim.

      The leader of this great country should strive, always, to be above the slandering of their own countrymen/women. To be above sleazy sex with a porn star. To be above bragging about what he/she can get away with doing to women, or the opposite sex. He/she should do better, especially, by definition, when they claim to be a follower of Christ.

      If one dismisses or overlooks such behaviors because he says he's a Christian, I have to ask, is he really a follower of Christ or just a Christian? There is a HUGE difference to me. I cannot help but wonder, does he claim to be Christian largely because that helps to get him votes/elected in a predominantly Christian nation?

      To answer the OP, yes, I do believe he has done many things for Christians. Has he done more than anyone? I don't know, I honestly cannot say. I truly, truly hope, though, that that's not all that matters...that that's not the only focus of his presidency. (I'm not accusing the OP of necessarily meaning or implying this).

      Shouldn't he, as President of EVERYONE in this great nation in 2018, strive for and be focused on the betterment of EVERYONE in this country equally and not just or MAINLY for those that are in the largest and predominant religious group? All Americans are Americans and our president should think of and act for us all. Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Pagan, Atheist, etc...all colors, all creeds, all races, all genders...ALL.

      In this day and age and beyond, if a POTUS cannot or does not deliver on that, he/she should not be President.

      This is just my opinion, of course. To each his/her own as is his/her right.

      1. Annkf profile image93
        Annkfposted 3 months agoin reply to this

        Melissa Meadow, you do understand that all of us are sinners right?

        I'm glad that God doesn't judge us in that way. We'd all be in a lot of trouble.

        Did you know that God can use anyone? Did you know that Cyrus, (whom God used to free Israel from Babylon) didn't even know who God was?

        Is there anyone else here who knows what I'm talking about? Why are only the anti-Trump people throwing their rhetoric out there while those who know what's actually happening are being silent?

        All of the things that you said, Melissa Meadows, are things that can be drawn from any human being. I recall a man who came out, and even testified publicly that he had "relations," with Obama.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7Tav0SpEX0

        Don't be a double talker. If you want a perfect leader, Jesus is the only perfect one who walked on this earth.

        I'm baffled at one thing. How is it that so many can't see what's happening all around us?

        The evidence of Globalism is out there..it's right in front of everyone, and people choose to hate President Trump more than they want to see the truth.

        If you are claiming to be a Christian, you should know very well what is  happening right now.

        How is it that so many don't?

        By your standards, King David didn't qualify to be a King in Israel. Yet God chose him.

        1. Melissa Meadow profile image85
          Melissa Meadowposted 3 months agoin reply to this

          I assure you, I'm baffled as well.

          Truth is in the eye of the beholder.

          Please do not make assumptions about me and since you're only going to try to convince me that I'm wrong or incorrect or misled or mistaken, or led astray, corrupt, etc. because I do not agree or align with your "truth", I request that you please do not address me further at all. Thank you.

          I have every right to state my opinion here as you do. You are entitled to your opinion, as am I. I did not address you in any specific way in my previous posting, I only and simply stated my own opinion in an open to anyone forum, so please stop trying to bait me into an redundant argument with the whole "I'm (You are) a better Christian than you (me, I am) and here's why". I find your tone condescending and 'holier than thou' and I'm flat out just not about it.

          1. Annkf profile image93
            Annkfposted 3 months agoin reply to this

            If you read my response, you would never have come to the conclusion that I'm arguing that " I'm a better Christian," lol

            But whatever....

          2. ChristianWritings profile image84
            ChristianWritingsposted 3 months agoin reply to this

            Absolutely agree Melissa.

      2. JAKE Earthshine profile image78
        JAKE Earthshineposted 3 months agoin reply to this

        Well said Melissa: the only thing Mr. Trump has done for Christians is to EXPOSE many of it's leaders such as Jerry Falwell Junior, to be the unholy charlatans they truly are, the phonies we always thought they were, taking money from their flocks under FALSE pretenses, pretending they were worshipers of God when in reality they are not: Just like the orange elderly unholy guy in the white house I guess:

        When God takes Donald down at his or her time of choosing, it will be swift and harsh, many of his remaining followers will be OUT of God's good graces as well:

        1. Annkf profile image93
          Annkfposted 3 months agoin reply to this

          I have never seen so much vulgarity and hatefulness from people who claim to be Christians.

          The two atheists on this thread for far more pleasant.

          1. JAKE Earthshine profile image78
            JAKE Earthshineposted 3 months agoin reply to this

            I don't know who you're talking about but here's a FACT: This once great crumbling nation called the USA has never experienced such a crazy, self absorbed, narcissistic, mentally deranged, hateful, paranoid, vulgar and vile traitor who is systematically undermining our country like the elderly guy perched in our oval office right now:

            I have faith that God will soon take away his power and expel him to the depths where he and many of his republican accomplices belong:

            1. Annkf profile image93
              Annkfposted 3 months agoin reply to this

              No, that's where you're wrong. Did you see the video where John F Kennedy explained what was happening?  It's less than two minutes long. In it he talks about the globalists, and he talks about a secret society that has its tentacles in every facet of our Government.

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y08pJiNS8mk

              Listen carefully, then consider what's happening all around the world.

              Jim Morrison said: "“Whoever controls the media, controls the mind”

              That is completely true. Step back from your anger for a few minutes and at least consider that there's far more behind the news you're hearing and reality.
              Then go research George Soros, and the open society foundation. He's part of the New World Order.

              P.S. Hitler used the media to push propaganda, and he managed to kill millions of human beings. The same globalists are in control of the media NOW.

              Why do you think the media has been against Trump since before the election? He's a threat to the globalist plan, and he may be our last defense against complete tyranny. Pay attention, please.

              I've known this was coming since Bush Sr. was in office. Since I was a kid.

              Do not help them along. This is a battle between good and evil.

              1. JAKE Earthshine profile image78
                JAKE Earthshineposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                I'm not even sure what you're even talking about Annkf but the fact still remains and it will always remain that until God removes him from power or he's indicted and impeached and finally tossed out on his flat head, we will be forced to endure the most vile, vicious, angry, simple minded, racist nut case illegitimate president in the HISTORY of this republic: An unprecedented, extremely dangerous and code red situation:

                1. Annkf profile image93
                  Annkfposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                  Jake Earthshine,

                  I wish you knew. I wish you would look into things for yourself.

                  This is a very serious time, but it's totally opposite of what you think.

                  I'll leave it at that. And say it was a pleasure meeting everyone, and discussing these issues...

            2. ChristianWritings profile image84
              ChristianWritingsposted 3 months agoin reply to this

              lol funny how if youre not a Trump supporter you're labelled as an athiest?

              Annkf remember that refraining from idolatry is one of God's ten commandments (Exodus 20: 3-6)

              From a genuine Christian on the other side of the pond, one who thinks Trump is a joke (in a totally non-hateful, but more pitiful way) wink

              1. Annkf profile image93
                Annkfposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                Excuse me, I did not label everyone as atheists. I'm was speaking of two on this thread who told me that they are atheists. I commented that they were more pleasant than most Christians on this thread.

                Do you always look at half a picture before you speak or form an opinion?

      3. dianetrotter profile image68
        dianetrotterposted 3 months agoin reply to this

        Thank you!

    10. ChristianWritings profile image84
      ChristianWritingsposted 3 months ago

      Hey Jean! I agree! Leave Annkf to wear her tinfoil hat. She mentioned Ritalin earlier, so I'm guessing she's familiar with the brand...

      I for one am a non-American Christian (but have lived there most of my life), and I agree with you on most of what you say, Republican Christians in America are way off on such a tangent that they have made it all about 'religion' and not AT ALL about 'Christ' and His teachings of love, and acceptance, trust and tolerance. Only true Christians (aka the non-religious ones) know that all races, genders and nationalities need to be respected. But for some reason the Trump supporters are a ''special kind'' they only listen to their p****-grabbing orange leader and call him a Christian (which for the life of me I cannot fathom why) or their 'saviour destined to take down the globalist agenda' (HA!) He is only filling his and his buddies pockets, sadly the Presidency is baically another 'get-rich' scheme for him. I really pity all the good people in America and pray that he doesn't get re-elected in 2020!

      1. JAKE Earthshine profile image78
        JAKE Earthshineposted 3 months agoin reply to this

        Well said Christian-Writings: If the USA is still a land of laws which is now an open question unfortunately, the despicable orange perched in our oval office will be either imprisoned or worse very soon for his Crimes Against Humanity which continue to this very day, and blatant betrayal of our country, and that applies to his corrupt republican cohorts as well:

        Perhaps OJ Simpson or Roy Moore or even the BONES of Charles Manson could be potential republican presidential candidates in 2020, they might be available and republicans simply adore CRAZIES, but it sure won't be the madman currently roaming the grounds of our severely degraded and disrespected white house:

        All I can say is when God reigns down on the Trump's as punishment for all their blatant corruption and dark fowl deeds here on Earth, and he must lay his hand upon them sooner or later at his time of choosing, it will be with great disappointment in his sons and daughters: Trump cultees although not in their right minds which may be taken into consideration, will also be in serious jeopardy of the Wrath of God for their association and support of such an evil charlatan presidential impostor:

        1. ChristianWritings profile image84
          ChristianWritingsposted 3 months agoin reply to this

          absolutely! The followers (although clearly not in their right minds and probably part of some weird MK Ultra experiment) will have to answer to God for allowing themselves to be fooled by their 'amazing', 'Christian' racist, xenophobia-inciting orange leader.

      2. Annkf profile image93
        Annkfposted 3 months agoin reply to this

        "You shall know them by their fruit."

        Christian-Writer. You are a very vulgar human.

        Though it doesn't matter what I think. God sees you and hears you.

        So carry on...

        1. JAKE Earthshine profile image78
          JAKE Earthshineposted 3 months agoin reply to this

          https://hubstatic.com/14279930.jpg

          Believe me Annkf, God saw this too: Sorry, but REAL Christians would never tell other Christians to VOTE for an alleged child molester like Donald did and Bozo Trump will never get into heaven nor will his last remaining bamboozled fans:

          I'm sure he understands this now, at this point he's probably just trying to take as many gullible souls down into the pit with him, plain and simple:

          1. ChristianWritings profile image84
            ChristianWritingsposted 3 months agoin reply to this

            Exactly Jake Earthshine! Its just astounding how many people are fooled by him, and how many people will go down with him too.

        2. Jean Bakula profile image94
          Jean Bakulaposted 3 months agoin reply to this

          Hi ChristianWritings,
          It's really sad to listen to these people. They think they are superior to all of us, but Jesus hung around with all the people who had nothing as far as possessions or money. ANNkf called you "vulger." A real Christian, or even a decent person, wouldn't call you names because you have different views. That's what makes life interesting, right? I gave up on organized religion after searching for years. I am a Pagan, an astrologer, and a student of metaphysics, with some Buddhist precepts thrown in. It works for me and I don't judge others.

          I suspect these "rabid" Christians never even studied the Bible or even thought about it much. It's all about feeling better than others.

          1. ChristianWritings profile image84
            ChristianWritingsposted 3 months agoin reply to this

            Thank you Jean! You're absolutely right, they are intolerant of opposing views, different races, genders and different nationalities. Which makes them fascists. And your'e right, they dont know the Bible nor the essence of who Jesus really was. Yes! He hung out with lepers, prostitutes, tax collectors. How is it that Trump supporters only follow what he (Trump) does? As if Trump can do no wrong. Thats idolatry. God didn't write that as one of the commandments, for people to take lightly or out of context. These Trumpets idolize that vile, fake, greedy, racist man. Its just sad really. Christ is all about LOVE. These people, and their leader President dont show ANY of it.

            1. dianetrotter profile image68
              dianetrotterposted 3 months agoin reply to this

              There is a great divide in the Christian community which, not caused by Trump, was magnified by Trump.

    11. ChristianWritings profile image84
      ChristianWritingsposted 3 months ago

      I'm entitled to my opinion, as you are yours. My opinion is that Trump is a joke, and has people like you blinded.

    12. Lora Hollings profile image84
      Lora Hollingsposted 3 months ago

      I think Donald Trump is a fraud and he would say or do anything just to get elected as the President of the US because that's what he wanted. He is totally obsessed with power and thinks very much like a fascist and a white supremacist. I certainly don't equate his thoughts and his behavior as anywhere near what Jesus Christ or what a true Christian is all about!  Being so prejudiced against others based on their ethnicity and also treating some people so unfairly is just not what I consider a true Christian to be.  And what about his corruption in using the presidency to enrich himself and cheat others? His hypocritical behavior reminds me of those that were corrupting the House of the Lord with their vice while at the same time masquerading as righteous who Jesus called out for denigrating his Father's temple!  Let's not forget the lessons of history when Hitler and the Nazis used Christianity for justifying their horrific crimes against millions of people just because they were of different ethnicity and also because in Hitler's eyes they were less than human.  Haven't we heard that phrase before from the lips of Donald Trump? Is that really consonant with Christianity? I doubt it!  We need to be careful about letting ourselves believe anything without subjecting it to critical thinking and looking more closely at that person's actions and speech before we just believe anything that they tell us and will claim anything just to grab power and influence over others that they know can be easily swayed.  If we want to maintain our Democracy, we need to be more vigilant, ask more questions, and subject that person and his actions to a more rigorous examination!  And the real truth will emerge.  After all, much is at stake!

      1. JAKE Earthshine profile image78
        JAKE Earthshineposted 3 months agoin reply to this

        Well Said Lora: Donald Trump is about as Christian as the dreg who he retweeted named Benito Mussolini, but we must have faith that the Good Lord will step in at the time of his choosing to halt Mr. Trump's unholy, mad, narcissistic reign of insanity:

        Unfortunately, when Donald Trump was inserted into our white house by a minority of racists and white nationalists supported by our enemies in Russia, the deep dark forces were unleashed in our oval office and it may take a mighty struggle of super human proportions by our forces of "Good and Righteousness" to finally REMOVE him:

        1. ChristianWritings profile image84
          ChristianWritingsposted 3 months agoin reply to this

          Amen! Fully agree. It's all part of God's plan, to sift out His real people from the false prophets wink I believe He has everything under control, because lets face it, all this idiot in the oval office is doing is BRINGING the good people (jews and gentiles alike) together! And that is something we can rejoice over! smile

          1. dianetrotter profile image68
            dianetrotterposted 3 months agoin reply to this

            I agree with you Christian.  God is sovereign over all that goes on.  He allows things to have to teach us and grow us.  We need to study His Word to seek His guidance in difficult and trying times.

      2. dianetrotter profile image68
        dianetrotterposted 3 months agoin reply to this

        Well said!  Amen!

    13. Annkf profile image93
      Annkfposted 3 months ago

      I watched President Trump's Michigan rally last night.

      A woman in the crowd collapsed, and President Trump stopped the rally to make sure she was alright. As doctors and medics went over to help the woman, the entire crowd broke out in song. They sang, Amazing Grace.

      It was incredible!

      It's something that nobody will ever see at a democrat/liberal rally. Last year democrats boo'd God at a convention.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUJE9YfsbNQ

      Here's a link to the HUGE Trump rally crowd singing, "Amazing Grace."

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpRsjQy6fqQ

      There's nothing but love when conservatives come together.

      President Trump is the best president in USA history. He is not only a president that stands for all Americans, he's standing with us against Globalist.

      He's a real life HERO.

      God is with him and with those of us who have prayed for years that the corruption in our government would be stopped.

      1. IslandBites profile image86
        IslandBitesposted 3 months agoin reply to this

        A woman in the crowd collapsed, and President Trump stopped the rally to make sure she was alright.

        He's a real life HERO.


        “So what happens is, this guy falls off right on his face, hits his head, and I thought he died. And you know what I did? I said, ‘Oh my God, that’s disgusting,’ and I turned away. I couldn’t, you know, he was right in front of me and I turned away. I didn’t want to touch him… he’s bleeding all over the place, I felt terrible. You know, beautiful marble floor, didn’t look like it. It changed color. Became very red. And you have this poor guy, 80 years old, laying on the floor unconscious, and all the rich people are turning away. ‘Oh my God! This is terrible! This is disgusting!’ and you know, they’re turning away. Nobody wants to help the guy. His wife is screaming—she’s sitting right next to him, and she’s screaming.

        What happens is, these 10 Marines from the back of the room… they come running forward, they grab him, they put the blood all over the place—it’s all over their uniforms—they’re taking it, they’re swiping [it], they ran him out, they created a stretcher. They call it a human stretcher, where they put their arms out with, like, five guys on each side,
        I was saying, ‘Get that blood cleaned up! It’s disgusting! The next day, I forgot to call [the man] to say Is he’s OK?” - Trump

        Yes, a Hero. lol

        1. Annkf profile image93
          Annkfposted 3 months agoin reply to this

          IslandBites,

          I've actually been looking for the context, or a complete (full) video where that statement was recorded. MSM has a way of  chopping videos in bits, and showing it in a way that will draw on a person's emotion rather than logic.

          I haven't found it yet, but I'll keep looking.

          I recall the "Coy fish," story..."Trump dumped all the fish food in the coy pond, and probably killed all the fish!"

          When I looked into it, President Trump did dump the food into the pond, only after the Japan's Prime Minister Shinzo Abe dumped all of his fish food into the pond. MSM totally misrepresented it, and it was stunningly obvious. I've found that to be the case 99% of the time.

          There are actually bigger things happening than the half truths that seem to get spread around too easily.

          Some people have the ability to look through all the fake news clutter, some  see a much bigger picture and actually know that the majority of MSM is owned by globalists, and others...like to get spitting mad and riot, and call people names that aren't true, like "racist, misogynist nazis," which is beyond stupid. It actually reveals that many who hate President Trump are completely emotionally led.

          You can tell who is emotionally immature when they mention words that sound like something a four year old would utter. Such as: "Drump!" or The "Orange Cheeto!"

          Those things don't bother me one bit. What does bother me is the blatant disrespect for YOUR president, (If you are an American Citizen, Trump IS your President.)

          Now that is 100% REAL NEWS

          At any rate, I hope anyone who hasn't voted today will go out and vote.

          To those who voted RED, MAGA!!!!!

          1. IslandBites profile image86
            IslandBitesposted 3 months agoin reply to this
            1. Annkf profile image93
              Annkfposted 3 months agoin reply to this

              Thank you for the link.

              This was recorded on the Howard Stern Show in 2008.

              Trump started the story with, "I'm not good with the medical stuff." How SHOCKING, some people are actually not good at being around blood? Impeach him!...(I'm kidding of course.)

              It's sad, but I personally don't like the sight of blood either.

              That's awesome that the Marines took a stand. It sounds like they did an awesome job of taking care of the man.

              The story sounded typical of being in a room filled with self entitled rich people, but those people could have been anyone. People react differently to emergency situations.

              Trump finishes with, "he was okay," and "I just don't like the sight of blood.

              He answered it quite well. God bless our Military men and women. They are the backbone of our nation. That was actually a great story that shows how awesome our military people are.

              1. IslandBites profile image86
                IslandBitesposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                (Unless is a woman period. Ha.)



                Btw, predictable. lol

                1. ChristianWritings profile image84
                  ChristianWritingsposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                  Well said IslandBites! Thing is, these Trumpets are brainwashed...so no use pointing out facts to them, they'll just call it 'fake news', like climate change. Lol they don't get tired of being proven wrong it seems.

    14. Lora Hollings profile image84
      Lora Hollingsposted 3 months ago

      I totally agree with your comment here, Tim.  Being a true Christian is all about working together to solve problems and showing love for all mankind not just some based on race or ethnicity. Maybe now, things get done, because hopefully people will work together to accomplish important objectives to help our planet heal and improve the lives of all people. "A government of the people, by the people, and for the people shall not perish from this Earth."

      1. Tim Truzy info4u profile image98
        Tim Truzy info4uposted 3 months agoin reply to this

        Thanks, Lora. I say amen and I would feel comfortable worshiping anywhere you go to honor Him. (That includes: church, home, etc.) You think like a true American and a compassionate human being.

    15. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
      Slarty O'Brianposted 3 months ago

      You've had 3000 years. The church ruled most of the world for 1600 hundred years. No amount of time is going get everyone "cleaned up" in god's way, as you put it. Christianity is dying around the world, and will eventually be like other out of fashion religions; practiced by a few here and there. We can only hope it dies gracefully.

      1. ChristianWritings profile image84
        ChristianWritingsposted 3 months agoin reply to this

        Ah but it depends - religion (common) may die, but true Christianity will live on, and conquer it all someday. wink

        1. Tim Truzy info4u profile image98
          Tim Truzy info4uposted 3 months agoin reply to this

          There we go again, defining His concept of time by our standards.
          His understanding is eternal and nonlinear and not dependent on any variables but the ones He chooses. Our grasp of time is linear, limited, and full of mistakes.
          I was talking about "cleaning" sheets, not souls. Sheets only take a few hours, our souls only take an instance.
          If DJT believes he's done much for Christians, etc., do you think I can borrow some of those expensive sheets. I am a sheet snob. (Bless me.)
          Never mind. Walmart works.
          I approach this topic with love and humor; peace on Earth, Good will to all!

          1. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
            Slarty O'Brianposted 3 months agoin reply to this

            Not likely, sorry. Religions last 2 to 3000 years, then die out. Christianity isn't special. You were the majority, now your heading toward minority. Short of god actually showing up, there's no way back now.  wink

            1. jonnycomelately profile image81
              jonnycomelatelyposted 3 months agoin reply to this

              But Slarty, you have to belieeeeve, man!  You need to put aside aaaalllll the logic you ever came across.  Then get on your kneeeeez, and feeeel yourself bad, bad, baaaaad.  Then say to an imaginary being....Yes Looooord!
              Sorry I am being so facetious, but being basically good, having consideration for your neighbour, whoever he/she might be....and learning all the lessons which life throws at you....all this can happen independent of any god, heaven or hell.
              Lucky, aren't we?

      2. Tim Truzy info4u profile image98
        Tim Truzy info4uposted 3 months ago

        Or you could not. Hell doesn't care whether you believe or not, man.
        Truly lucky.

        1. jonnycomelately profile image81
          jonnycomelatelyposted 3 months agoin reply to this
        2. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
          Slarty O'Brianposted 3 months agoin reply to this

          Yes, your god created everything in a way that everything must kill something every day to survive. These things suffer pain as we do. He created diseases, suffering, and evil.  And you can honestly believe it's better than any satan you can imagine?

          That goes for any conscious creater who did this with intent.

          If there's no god, there's no evil intent in this and it's just the way it is.
          No conscious being could be forgiven for doing this. Lucky there likely isn't one.

      3. ChristianWritings profile image84
        ChristianWritingsposted 3 months ago

        lol Slarty, thats perfect, because it means the Bible is correct (again). There will be less and less believers. And yes, most Christians are annoying happy clappers, but you DO get some that are genuinely good people, and if you met them they'd never mention God/religion, but just help those in need. However, our mandate is to get the word of hope out there somehow to illuminate the paths of nonbelievers, because if it weren't for hope, some people would be prettttttty depressed. Oh wait. They already are. Nevermind.

        Right you are, Tim.

        1. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
          Slarty O'Brianposted 3 months agoin reply to this

          I've never been depressed or bored.  No god required. And world government is a good idea if done right. 

          And the people who wrote the bible weren't stupid. It didn't take a god to tell them nonbelievers would increase. It's always been that way. Who's trending today? For how long? Fans increase for a while, then they decline. It's just the way it is. wink

        2. jonnycomelately profile image81
          jonnycomelatelyposted 3 months agoin reply to this

          I have news for you, Christianwritings.
          God is man-made and he/she/it is defined as one who meets a human need ---- and since there is a current human population of 7.5  billion (and counting each time my finger touches a button ), that implies a potential of 7.5+ billion imaginings of god.

          1. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
            Slarty O'Brianposted 3 months agoin reply to this

            Right you are. Every Christian has a different god. I've learned that from arguing with them. And see how obvious it is from how they argue with each other? What one believes, another doesn't.

            I blame the Protestants, of course. Everything was standardized under Rome. Protestantism divided it in to a free for all and killed the religion. lol... Thank god.

            1. jonnycomelately profile image81
              jonnycomelatelyposted 3 months agoin reply to this

              Yet, as I have said before, here and elsewhere, personally I have nothing against any person having any belief(s) they choose, provided it remains personal, appropriate with the culture in which they live and not lied about, forced upon others as the only religion that must be accepted.
              I warm to those who find their beliefs serve them well.  But not to those who use it, and people, as their political playthings.

        3. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
          Slarty O'Brianposted 3 months ago

          I agree with you, of course. People have a natural right to believe or not believe what ever they like, and I'd fight against any attempt to make any belief illegal. Or anyone who tries to force their beliefs on others, be it a religions person or an atheist. These beliefs are personal and should remain so. The trouble is, Christianity and Islam insist all must believe and adhere to their doctrine.  Now that does need to be outlawed.

          1. Live to Learn profile image82
            Live to Learnposted 3 months agoin reply to this

            Christians might say if you don't believe you're going to hell but this country,even back when localities were run by Christians, had no laws allowing the murder of people who have different beliefs.

            Don't lump modern day Christianity with Islam.

            1. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
              Slarty O'Brianposted 3 months agoin reply to this

              Islam is 600 years behind Christianity. Till the 1600s Christians burned each other and others as heretics.  The US burned so called witches, and slavery was often justified by passages in the bible.

              Its not the time, its the ideology that can be deadly if they gain power

              1. Live to Learn profile image82
                Live to Learnposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                For goodness sake. The only ideology that purports to believe barbaric and violent customs of times long past make sense today is Islam.

                There isn't a soul alive who doesn't know the history of the Abrahamic religions. The only souls today who somehow believe religious history must be viewed separately from the history of civilization as a whole are disingenuous people with a mission.

                1. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
                  Slarty O'Brianposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                  I’ve found that many Christians don’t know much about their religion’s history. For one thing, Jesus, according to the bible, said not one of the original laws were dropped. It’s Paul, someone who never met Jesus, who said some of the Old Testament laws were no longer applied. 

                  It’s also true that Islam began as a very peaceful and inclusive religion, tolerant of other religions,  And it’s true priest wrote the supposed words of Mohamed as neither he nor Jesus wrote anything.  Muslims’ were doing great in the world. Their science far out did Western countries of the time. They even knew how to treat  plague by opening and washing the blisters. The Catholic church forbid doctors in the west from doing that. The scientific method was invented by a Muslim  in1000 CE

                  But by 1100 CE, fanatic clerics started taking over telling everyone all the knowledge they needed was in the Koran, and science outside that was heresy.  They’ve been splitting up in to factions since, and now we have fanatic radicals trying to spread their brand of religion throughout the world by force.

                  Christianity started with many friendly cults. They all had different texts and beliefs.  For 300 plus years they were peaceful, we’re told. But one of the reasons Rome persecuted them was because some factions destroyed Roman temples. Not many know that.

                  Then Rome took over the religion, outlawed all the factions and cults, standardized their texts and beliefs, made god a trinity as they so often did, and made Jesus god. Something the Egyptian church rejected, and were deemed heretics for and slaughtered.  After that, the inquisitions lasted officially till the 1960s., though not many were killed for heresy after the1800s.

                  In the 1600s came the reform. That sent the western world to war. In the end the Roman church lost power and the religion crumbled into hundreds of factions and cults.

                  The point is, when any belief that says it is the only right belief takes power, others suffer. Violence is inherent in Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. It’s also inherent in many ideologies of political and other natures.  Anything that is certain it is right and everything else is evil/wrong. 

                  Right now there are few theocratic Christian nations. But that doesn’t mean some Christians in the US wouldn’t like it if you were a theocracy.

                  The only thing that keeps the peace is a multicultural society where religion is protected, but also the right to try to force your personal beliefs on others is outlawed.

                  Being born Catholic and becoming an atheist, I have no agenda but truth. How about you?

                  1. jonnycomelately profile image81
                    jonnycomelatelyposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                    +++

                  2. Live to Learn profile image82
                    Live to Learnposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                    I'm afraid it is the non religious, like the overly religious who demand the letter and not the spirit be abided by. Jesus did, himself, point out the purpose of the law and the simplicity of it. You are welcome to rail against it, but I say you harbor resentment because you misunderstand it. Love God and give your neighbor the same treatment you expect for yourself and the law is fulfilled.

                    It's lawyers, biblists and atheists who find that difficult.

                    History does not change truth, no matter how often it is basterdized by those who try to make themselves look bright, godly or whatever.

                    I will add that Jesus not recording a word was pure genius. It was not a mistake. Christians in this country played a major role in ensuring the separation of church and state be incorporated into our constitution. Don't be fooled by people yakking as if what we are is not exactly what those who supported the ideal of separation in the pulpits of that time intended. Back then, it was Christians persecuting other Christians, but those being persecuted rejoiced in the fact that no one of any religion, or lack thereof, would have to go through that in this nation.

                    1. jonnycomelately profile image81
                      jonnycomelatelyposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                      We atheists are often criticised, sometimes for generalising.  But we are not the only ones, obviously.
                      You speak of Jesus as having been an actual person who lived, yet there is some doubt.....no authentic documentation.  No proof.
                      You speak as though we, everyone, must come to accept as true, stories about god, etc.  Christianity feels a need to evangelise, as though to do so will bring a ficticious god and jesus to reality.
                      As a person with atheistic understanding I feel no need to convert you and your religious views into line with my own, only ask that you will not try to change me.

                      1. Live to Learn profile image82
                        Live to Learnposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                        I would never deign to suggest anyone change their beliefs. I raise an eyebrow when someone tells me what I'm supposed to believe. And that is what that atheist is attempting to do. Insist everyone share his belief.

                        1. wilderness profile image96
                          wildernessposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                          You may have a point.  The atheist insists that no belief system is right or superior...and expects the believer to understand and accept that concept.  Or at least behave as if they do.

                    2. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
                      Slarty O'Brianposted 2 months agoin reply to this

                      “I'm afraid it is the non religious, like the overly religious who demand the letter and not the spirit be abided by. Jesus did, himself, point out the purpose of the law and the simplicity of it. You are welcome to rail against it, but I say you harbor resentment because you misunderstand it. Love God and give your neighbor the same treatment you expect for yourself and the law is fulfilled.”

                      You prove my point. You all have different interpretations of the bible. That means you’re not to be trusted if given power. The fanatics will demand you adhere to all the laws and kill you if you don’t. Moderates exist too and you all seem to be reading different books or picking and choosing what you like.  You’re dangerous. But as long as you don’t have power you’re kept in check.

                      “It's lawyers, biblists and atheists who find that difficult. “

                      Or people who can read? 



                      “History does not change truth, no matter how often it is basterdized by those who try to make themselves look bright, godly or whatever.”


                      Right. But history can show what the truth is. Obviously you guessing and picking and choosing can’t change the truth, whatever it might be.  Until you can prove your god exists, it’s speculation, not fact.  So whatever you think is the truth, you can’t know it is, no matter how much you think you do.


                      “I will add that Jesus not recording a word was pure genius. It was not a mistake.”


                      Right. He was illiterate. Pure genius indeed. Lol…  What do you base that bit of illogical insight on?


                      “ Christians in this country played a major role in ensuring the separation of church and state be incorporated into our constitution.”

                      Yes sir. I won’t deny that and in fact, I’ve pointed that out myself several times.
                      “Back then, it was Christians persecuting other Christians, but those being persecuted rejoiced in the fact that no one of any religion, or lack thereof, would have to go through that in this nation.”


                      Well we agree on some things.  And that’s all Atheists are fighting to maintain. But America is being more fundamentalist as time goes by. Don’t forget, the KKK claim to be devout Christians.

                      1. Live to Learn profile image82
                        Live to Learnposted 2 months agoin reply to this

                        Won wants power? You harp about power. I don't see any person trying to stage a coup here.

                        Different interpretation is the point and the goal. Each person is unique.  Their experience is unique. Therefore their understanding must be unique. If you think every atheist who ever lived said 'there is no God' and left it at that then I say...wow. That's ignorant. Your view on the cosmos is uniquely you. You agree on some things, disagree on others. The binding tie is your belief there is no God. Same for Christians. They believe there is a God and tack onto that the qualifier that Jesus is an important part of the equation. They don't even agree on what part.

                        Your complaint about Christianity could easily be leveled against atheists, Buddhists, Muslims, Rastafarians, etc. Any group should be met with caution if they weld too much power.

                        People who can read who don't think, who choose to search for the negative and never the good are more dangerous to harmony than those who can't read.

                        I don't have to prove God exists because I am as free as you to come to conclusions based on observation and experience. I also consider atheists to be a natural part of the order of life. It isn't good, or bad, to not believe. The reasons for non belief are what matters. If they are good reasons, it is a good thing. If it results in harmonious behavior, bully for that too. You are the one with a problem with me, I have no problem with me or you. I say live and let live.

                        Jesus may or may not have been illiterate. He read from the scrolls in the Temple so I'd say you are wrong on that, but it doesn't matter. Look at Islam. Stagnating simply because some guy wrote something long ago and they are stuck with that. Had Jesus done the same Christianity might have been relegated to the same fate. It wasn't. It was designed to allow the evolution of thought. The growth of humanity, not the enslavement of it. Did the Church enslave? Certainly. Does it still? For some who want the letter, certainly. It certainly enslaved you and inhibited your ability to evolve.

                        And little miss, I can call myself a duck but it doesn't make me one. The KKK is like you. Searching text to find justification for judgement.

                        1. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
                          Slarty O'Brianposted 2 months agoin reply to this

                          "Your complaint about Christianity could easily be leveled against atheists, Buddhists, Muslims, Rastafarians, etc. Any group should be met with caution if they weld too much power."

                          Absolutely. I said as much in another post. Any ideology that demands everyone follow their beliefs can be dangerous.

                          We agree on more than we disagree on. But the only one judging here seems to be you.

                          Believe what you like. But I'm a person who relies on fact. I don't believe anything. You can't prove a god exists, I can't prove it doesn't. I don't believe a god exists, but I also don't believe it doesn't. I believe nothing either way. I don't know and no one does.

                          That's hard for theists to understand. Lack of belief is not belief of lack.
                          I read the bible as written. Hence I get a different view of it than you or any Christian does.  You have to interpret it, I don't. I don't have to make evil look like good.  The god of the bible is a tyrant egomaniac that reminds me of Trump. I know you can't see it that way, but it's obvious to people with no steak in seeing it otherwise.

                          And who are you or anyone to say someone isn't Christian if they claim they are?

                        2. jonnycomelately profile image81
                          jonnycomelatelyposted 2 months agoin reply to this

                          I see it as a fair conclusion that when we  observe and experience the complex beauty of this world, we might ascribe its origin to a "creator" in the image of a super-human beimg.  Regardless of any argument of how that process of creation could have happened.
                          But then to ascribe to that creator a confused mixture of attributes like a loving father; an ultra- strict judge; a ruthless overlord; a killer of individuals he does not approve of ..... all these qualities are human reflections, metaphores relating to how we see our world to dance for us. 
                          "Sin," "God," "Hell," etc., are constructs of the human mind.  Nothing else.
                          IMHO

                  3. lobobrandon profile image88
                    lobobrandonposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                    +1. Exactly same story and sentiments.

                    1. Jean Bakula profile image94
                      Jean Bakulaposted 2 months agoin reply to this

                      Me too.

            2. jonnycomelately profile image81
              jonnycomelatelyposted 3 months agoin reply to this

              Do you really suppose people needed laws allowing them to murder??!

              Regardless of specific religion, people can always find an excuse for suppressing anyone that they dont like.

              1. Live to Learn profile image82
                Live to Learnposted 3 months agoin reply to this

                No duh. To blame present violence on past religion is pure ignorance.

                To blame present violence solely on present religion is failure to incorporate all facts in one's opinions.

                You are correct that violence will always find a way.

        4. profile image58
          farside1234posted 2 months ago

          He has done post-graduate studies. He is a genius. He has traditional views for our country and patriotism. Many of the dims are traitors

          1. jonnycomelately profile image81
            jonnycomelatelyposted 2 months agoin reply to this

            Farside1234, welcome to Hubpages and we hope you have an enjoyable, fruitful discussion here.
            However, your very first posting is somewhat sketchy and ambigous.  Would you like expand?

          2. dianetrotter profile image68
            dianetrotterposted 2 months agoin reply to this

            You started the evening drinking I see.  :smile

          3. dianetrotter profile image68
            dianetrotterposted 2 months agoin reply to this

            Are you saying that DJT's post-graduate studies, genius and views for our country and patriotism have been more helpful to evanelical Christians than anyone else?  He doesn't have the vocabulary of a person who has done post graduate study.  I agree that he is skilled in identifying concerns of some and them marketing himself as the only solution.  In this case, he clothed himself in concern for Christian values - none of which he exhibits or aspires to hold.  His views of the country and patriotism exploit what some perceive as acceptable.

            I'm not a Democrat.  I would like to know why they are considered traitors. 

            I admit that DJT's entry into politics has created fissures in the Christian church.  They are not going to be resolved in the political arena.  They are going to be adjudicated and worked out under the supervision of the Holy Spirit.

        5. Live to Learn profile image82
          Live to Learnposted 2 months ago

          Succinct is apparently beyond your grasp, but ok.

          Was Moses a myth? Does it matter? I have heard Christian scholars believe Jesus was a myth so, I doubt all Jews agree that Moses never existed (as all Christians don’t agree Jesus was a myth). Either way.

          Last I heard, they were claiming the entire Torah was written during the Babylonian exile. It was a unifying myth (so they said) created to help the Jews not lose their identity as a group. So, they have evidence of Deuteronomy back to David now. And, of course, those who want to grasp on fiction have decided that must be the first. Not a problem either.
          And, I see you are rewriting stories to suit your personal beliefs. I could ask you to explain why you believe that the nation of Israel, after the split, had different beliefs. But, it also is not important.

          And, again, whether or not Moses is considered to have been real; you are right. It is about how humans thought. It’s funny that atheists jump in with a vengeance to ensure we are all in agreement that ancient man had the same mental faculties as modern humans; then insist on insisting that ancient man had no way of understanding the difference between thinking and intervention by an outside force.

          God was not admitting to be cruel. That’s incredibly simplistic to say such.  It is the cruelty of humanity which causes us not to take care of each other and see any type of what we perceive as a handicap as a cruelty inflicted. 

          I completely disagree with your assessment of that line concerning his inability to speak effectively. I think it is another example of a human pushing back and arguing with God, only to have God acquiesce and change his original plan; to accommodate. Plus, I believe the Bible attributes the invention of things to men themselves. Except for when Adam got something to put on, I don’t remember it mentioning god teaching them how to make beer, wine, bread, fire, etc. So, apparently the story tellers in this tale didn’t consider humans too dumb to think these things up.

          There is no evidence that people in the biblical tales were having their subconscious minds come up with an answer to the major tales. Unless, it is your contention that we can, by the power of our minds, cause a drenched pile of wood burst into flames, conjure up multiple plagues, survive in the belly of a beast and come back from the dead. 
          You can compare the tales each of the ancient peoples told to explain creation and the advancement of humanity out of their hunter gatherer days; but it would be best not to mix them up with each other; or attribute the shortcomings found in one to another.

          I agree with you in that I don’t personally believe God is talking to anyone today. I don’t think anyone has a ‘personal relationship’ with Jesus but I will admit maybe I don’t clearly understand what that is supposed to mean; other than the obvious. It’s funny because the idea of God should create a sense of humility; a sense of your ephemeral insignificance in the grand scheme of the universe. But, those who claim to talk to God certainly don’t appear to have experienced that. But, to be fair, I don’t get that the average atheist gets it either.

          But, even if God didn’t talk to anyone in ancient times it wouldn’t matter. I’ve stated before that the Old Testament is, mostly, a testament to the fact that God cannot be an active force in the world. The power is eventually taken for granted and was never fully appreciated. Having a really big buddy is a dangerous relationship and when you are out of favor it really causes problems. Did some ancient tribe have to go through those trials and tribulations in order for the lesson to be taught? I don’t know. But, I do believe that stands such as yours are simple minded because the historical truth is not what is important in the telling nor would it (if ever completely disproven) disprove the existence of God.

          1. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
            Slarty O'Brianposted 2 months agoin reply to this

            “Succinct is apparently beyond your grasp, but ok.”

            Yours either. wink But it’s a complex subject. The longer the post, the more interest. I’m good with that.


            “Was Moses a myth? Does it matter?”

            No, it doesn’t.  But I wanted to make it clear that I wasn’t arguing it as real event, just an example of the way humans used to think, and still do.

            “I have heard Christian scholars believe Jesus was a myth so, I doubt all Jews agree that Moses never existed (as all Christians don’t agree Jesus was a myth). Either way.”

            Absolutely.


            “Last I heard, they were claiming the entire Torah was written during the Babylonian exile. “

            It was. Compiled from stories and traditions including stories they were exposed to in Babylon.. The written word didn’t come along till 4000 bce. At least not that we’ve found. Few but priests could read or write. The Hebrews didn’t develop writing till around 1800 bce. 

            “It was a unifying myth (so they said) created to help the Jews not lose their identity as a group.”

            Right.

            “ So, they have evidence of Deuteronomy back to David now.”

            Sorry, actually I was wrong about that. I looked up my sources again. King Josiah’s temple actually found it, not David. So that’s 675 bce or so. But only part of it was found. And then completed by 500 bce.


            “ I could ask you to explain why you believe that the nation of Israel, after the split, had different beliefs. But, it also is not important.”

            Because it’s a fact proven by the Samaritans who say the Jewish version of the Torah is corrupt. As well, there is evidence in the bible itself. How many times did they go back to worshiping idols?  Same was true in King Josiah’s time.

            And, again, whether or not Moses is considered to have been real; you are right. It is about how humans thought. It’s funny that atheists jump in with a vengeance to ensure we are all in agreement that ancient man had the same mental faculties as modern humans; then insist on insisting that ancient man had no way of understanding the difference between thinking and intervention by an outside force.”

            Many don’t know the difference now. 


            “God was not admitting to be cruel. That’s incredibly simplistic to say such.  It is the cruelty of humanity which causes us not to take care of each other and see any type of what we perceive as a handicap as a cruelty inflicted. “

            No. This god admits to creating blindness, deafness,  and all manner of human ills. And if it’s our fault, why do animals suffer?  This god also admits in Isaiah 14, I believe, that he created evil. And if he exists, he’s responsible for creating the conditions that make everything suffer disease, mental issues, cancer, you name it. He also made us, we didn’r make ourselves or ask to be here. 

            Any conscious being, your god or any other that creates a world of suffering and where every day everything has to kill something to eat, is cruel beyond belief, and downright evil. 

            Any yours is an egotist who needs constant glorification and worship. It’s an egotistical tyrant psychopath. Much like Trump.  It’s obvious. Yet, like Trump, his followers try to make evil look like god. It astounds me.


            “Plus, I believe the Bible attributes the invention of things to men themselves. Except for when Adam got something to put on, I don’t remember it mentioning god teaching them how to make beer, wine, bread, fire, etc. So, apparently the story tellers in this tale didn’t consider humans too dumb to think these things up.”

            Perhaps not, But the Sumerian and Egyptian and Hindu and native American god’s, to name a few,  did teach them, according to their stories. The Hebrews knew all about that.


            “There is no evidence that people in the biblical tales were having their subconscious minds come up with an answer to the major tales. Unless, it is your contention that we can, by the power of our minds, cause a drenched pile of wood burst into flames, conjure up multiple plagues, survive in the belly of a beast and come back from the dead. “

            No, those were myths. Imagination.


            “You can compare the tales each of the ancient peoples told to explain creation and the advancement of humanity out of their hunter gatherer days; but it would be best not to mix them up with each other; or attribute the shortcomings found in one to another.”

            Unfortunately, they were mixed. That’s clear. And according to the bible there were no hunter gatherer days. 


            “I agree with you in that I don’t personally believe God is talking to anyone today. I don’t think anyone has a ‘personal relationship’ with Jesus but I will admit maybe I don’t clearly understand what that is supposed to mean; other than the obvious. It’s funny because the idea of God should create a sense of humility; a sense of your ephemeral insignificance in the grand scheme of the universe. But, those who claim to talk to God certainly don’t appear to have experienced that. But, to be fair, I don’t get that the average atheist gets it either.

            All you need to do is paint one wall in your house black. Then stick a pin in it somewhere and remove it. Then move as far away as you can and see if you can find the hole.  That’s you looking for the earth from Pluto.

            A world filled 100 miles high in souls amounts to less than a virus on the butt end of the universe. If that doesn’t make you feel insignificant nothing will.   Thinking that a god outside of the universe would be interested in what amounts to an atom and all us dots on it seems to be less than humble.  Religion, on the contrary, tries to elevate us to something significant.


            “But, even if God didn’t talk to anyone in ancient times it wouldn’t matter. I’ve stated before that the Old Testament is, mostly, a testament to the fact that God cannot be an active force in the world. The power is eventually taken for granted and was never fully appreciated. Having a really big buddy is a dangerous relationship and when you are out of favor it really causes problems. Did some ancient tribe have to go through those trials and tribulations in order for the lesson to be taught? I don’t know.”

            Lessons need to be re taught constantly with each new generation.  That’s why we have schools.  If there was a god, I suspect it would show up once in a while. Why isn’t Jesus king of the world as he should be, were he real? Why one god and 8000 plus religions and beliefs?  Makes no sense.

            “ But, I do believe that stands such as yours are simple minded because the historical truth is not what is important in the telling nor would it (if ever completely disproven) disprove the existence of God.”

            No it wouldn’t. Just like disproving evolution wouldn’t prove god. Nor can you or anyone prove god exists.  Nothing can prove it either way short of it showing up, so it’s a meaningless question.   It does, or doesn’t. Much like invisible pink squirrels living in my attic.

            I’ve never said a god of some sort doesn’t exist. I just do not believe it does, regardless of there being no proof.

            1. Live to Learn profile image82
              Live to Learnposted 2 months agoin reply to this

              Couple of things.

              One thing which bothers me is mainstream rejection of anomalous evidence of the fact that we don't know everything we think we know. Civilizations were around long before we originally postulated. Think about it. Even Neanderthals who were originally depicted as brutish idiots are now known to have been much more advanced than originally thought. Evidence of civilizations thousands of years prior to what we originally believed was the beginning of our march away from our hunter gatherer days. So, let's steer away from finite beliefs of what was. We have a lot left to learn.

              That said. Science has repeatedly scoffed at claims in the bible only to have archeology make us pause and rethink. David could not have existed. End of story. Now the story is rewritten. Abraham could not have had domesticated camels. End of story. Now the story is rewritten. These are simply 2 examples, but I hope you understand the direction this is going. We cannot allow belief to blind our search for truth.

              Your claim only the descendents of Judah remaining faithful is silly. Of course people fall away from faith. Of course they change religion. I don't know that it means all changed. I think it is evidence of what I've always appreciated about the Judeo Christian belief structure. God puts no ring in any nose. The whole book is about 'I believe in you, so follow Me'. But there is no real earthly compulsion to do so.

              So, the Israelites put forth one explanation of creation and the rise of humanity. Other cultures put forth others. You lodge a complaint on the shortcomings of some, I point out the error, you agree but say it doesn't matter...basically even though the evidence points away from your statement the Israelites probably thought that way anyway. I'm not going to argue with such a flawed position.

              Relegating eye witness testimony to myth and imagination is one of the weakest stands I run across in the atheist argument. You believe what you believe because of your experience, be it from personal experience, what you've read of the experience of others and what you have deduced from learning. You want credence given to your belief and experience but cannot afford the same courtesy to others.

              The problem with this is, primarily, the supernatural is simply not yet understood phenomena. Dismissing, out of hand, eye witness testimony pushes us further back in our search for truth than almost any other act.  I'm not interested in narcissistic belief structures and that is what that argument boils down to. And this belief you possess explains the constant declarations about the ignorance of humanity, from then until now. Only you (and like minded people) can discern truth. Disagree? You call that ignorance. Egotism, unbridled.

              Where do you come up with the belief that the Bible discredits the hunter gatherer stage of humanity? It clearly states God made man and woman, then told them to be fruitful and multiply. Then he set Adam and Eve in the garden. The Bible focuses on God's relationship with humanity through the line of Adam. I suppose you expected the books included should then,occasionally,  sidetrack to every other line in the world and document their history. It didn't. It isn't important to the lessons included.

              You choose to see evil. The question is why? What need exists in you to see it? Human imperfection equates,in your mind, to an evil God. Consumption of food is evil to you. Again, I wonder why. Your litany of complaints goes on and on. Why doesn't God attend school? He must not exist. Woe to the believer.

              I'd love to be presented with a valid and intelligent argument against belief. I continue to search for one.  I will say, scientific theory continues to support the biblical narrative. I wonder, sometimes, is this sign of the miraculous nature of the text or is it indicative of the fact that our collective subconscious is so steeped in the historical  evolution of our Judeo Christian  society that it has sent us down rabbit holes. Is relativity a viable avenue toward a better understanding of the universe? Is multiverse pie in the sky? Is quantum physics all malarky? Is it all driven by flawed assumptions from the outset? It's a mystery. An incredibly interesting one I hope to live to find the answers to.

              1. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
                Slarty O'Brianposted 2 months agoin reply to this

                . “We have a lot left to learn”

                To be sure. We don’t know much before written language, and even then it’s not all clear at all. We have a temple complex in Turkey dated to 12000 bce. Long before so called civilization was thought to have happened. We have megalithic building all over the world that couldn’t have been created by the people they are attributed to. There’s no reason another humanoid species like homo erectus couldn’t have created an advanced civilization without leaving written language 70000 years ago.  Or sapiens could have had other civilizations that came and went. The earth is prone to disasters that wipe out entire species.  DNA even proved we mated with other species like Neanderthal and homo erectus. 

                “That said. Science has repeatedly scoffed at claims in the bible only to have archeology make us pause and rethink.”

                Not science. Historians, scholars, etc, yes. But science itself  doesn’t have anything to say about people in the bible. What it does show is that certain claims about “creation” can’t be true. The earth is not just 6000 years old, for instance, It’s 4 billion years old. It’s not flat, etc.

                “We cannot allow belief to blind our search for truth.”

                Couldn’t agree more.  Hence why I don’t invest belief in anything. Facts don’t require belief, and everything else is speculation. All I have are conditional opinions.


                “Of course people fall away from faith. Of course they change religion. I don't know that it means all changed.  I think it is evidence of what I've always appreciated about the Judeo Christian belief structure. God puts no ring in any nose. The whole book is about 'I believe in you, so follow Me'. But there is no real earthly compulsion to do so.”

                Not what I read into it exactly.  But no, I don’t mean all of them left their religion, I mean not all the tribes ever took on the Judean version of their religion.  Some believed man and woman were created at the same time. Judeans believed in the Adam and Eve version.  Both are in the bible. But more on that later.

                It’s not clear that all the tribes were actually decedents of Israel. Hebrews were originally from Canaan. And worshiped Canaanite gods. We know that the tribes had wars with each other. Ten lived in the north, each with their own territory, not together. The Judeans and the tribe of Benjamin lived in Judea. There were various attempts to unify them under one religion and history, but they seem to have failed.  Again, this is from Jewish historians and scholars.  I don’t know if its all fact, obviously.  But we do know the bible itself was written around 400 bce. We know from documentation that only part of “the law” was found in the temple 675 bce. There were oral traditions, but not much actual written text.   So in essence the Judean scribes of the time put down their versions of the stories. And you know how oral story telling goes. It’s hardly accurate and prone to alteration over time.  We know from various sources that more than one exodus happened, and we have yet never found evidence of all the plagues of the bible or the exodus of the bible in Egyptian texts. It does seem to have been a made up story originating from 900 to 700 bce.

                And think about it. Moses was brought up in the Egyptian court. Apart from there being no evidence of his existence in Egyptian texts, if he knew how to write he would have been educated in Egyptian not Hebrew script, wouldn’t he?


                “So, the Israelites put forth one explanation of creation and the rise of humanity. Other cultures put forth others. You lodge a complaint on the shortcomings of some, I point out the error, you agree but say it doesn't matter...basically even though the evidence points away from your statement the Israelites probably thought that way anyway. I'm not going to argue with such a flawed position.”

                No, it’s a common human phenomenon that is likely one of the main reasons we “started” believing in gods. And again, even today we see it played out by people who are sure they talk to god and get answers.  The Hebrews lived with the Sumerians and Egyptians and many others who did believe the gods taught them to make bread and beer etc etc.  They didn’t invent those things themselves and learned them from other humans. So it shouldn’t be surprising that they don’t mention where they learned these things because it wasn’t of their god story nor their own.


                “Relegating eye witness testimony to myth and imagination is one of the weakest stands I run across in the atheist argument. You believe what you believe because of your experience, be it from personal experience, what you've read of the experience of others and what you have deduced from learning. You want credence given to your belief and experience but cannot afford the same courtesy to others.”

                I express my opinion. You decide whether you give my ideas credence or not. I do the same, hopefully and deliberately based on facts.  Experience is great, but it can be misinterpreted.  If experience was factual, I’d be a very religious person. So now I make models with facts. It doesn’t mean the model is fact, but at least it can be tested. 


                “The problem with this is, primarily, the supernatural is simply not yet understood phenomena.”

                If  it exists at all. Another thing no one can prove or falsify, it seems.

                “Dismissing, out of hand, eye witness testimony pushes us further back in our search for truth than almost any other act.”

                Accepting it as proof without real evidence pushes us further back in our search for truth than almost any other act. What supposed eye witnesses are we talking about?

                 
                “ I'm not interested in narcissistic belief structures and that is what that argument boils down to. And this belief you possess explains the constant declarations about the ignorance of humanity, from then until now. Only you (and like minded people) can discern truth. Disagree? You call that ignorance. Egotism, unbridled.”

                Wrong. That seems to be more your position. Even though you can’t show a god exists you want others to take the idea as fact, and claim we’re ignorant for dismissing it.. It isn’t. You’re free to believe what you like,  I’ve never called you ignorant.  But I don’t buy it.  Prove it in some meaningful way and I’ll definitely take it seriously. Otherwise I can’t.


                “Where do you come up with the belief that the Bible discredits the hunter gatherer stage of humanity? It clearly states God made man and woman, then told them to be fruitful and multiply. Then he set Adam and Eve in the garden.”

                Ah, you’re one of those. Lol… Adam and Eve weren’t the first humans?  They were just the first with free will? You’ve been talking to Headly/Jeremy? It’s a good interpretation, but it’s not the way the Jews see it, nor the way Christianity views the texts. Particularly fundamentalists who don’t believe the earth is more than 6000 years old, and there is no evolution.  But I assume you do accept evolution so you have reinterpreted the bible.

                Continued in next post

              2. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
                Slarty O'Brianposted 2 months agoin reply to this

                The  usual interpretation is that the first part of the bible is clearly just telling us what god did. The second part tells us in more detail about Adam and Eve.  Chapter one creates man and woman in the image of Elohiym  (meaning: powers).  At the same time.  After the seventh day chapter two starts. In 2.4 the writers first start calling him YHWH (he exists).  Now the story of Adam and Eve starts. 

                “This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the LORD God made the earth and the heavens”.

                This is thought to be written by two different Hebrew factions. The first account by the Elohiym followers possibly included as a tribute to the beliefs of another tribe, and the second by the YHWH faction.

                By adding the line I included above, they are acknowledging that both beliefs co-existed, and asserting that the Adam and Eve version was just a detailed explanation of how god did it, not separate beliefs at all.  Another way to unify the people.

                The problem with saying you’re ok with evolution but you believe in Adam and Eve is 4 billion years. That’s when earth was formed. 3.5 billion years ago life in the form of single celled animals started. Is that when god said go forth and multiply? That’s what humans developed from, single celled animals. And Sapiens only arrived around 70,000 years ago. Is that when god said go forth and multiply? According to the bible humans were created in one shot, fully formed in his image, whether you believe the first or second explanation.

                And right away, after being thrown out of Eden, they started living in villages. So no mention of hunter gatherers.

                “The Bible focuses on God's relationship with humanity through the line of Adam. I suppose you expected the books included should then, occasionally,  sidetrack to every other line in the world and document their history. It didn't. It isn't important to the lessons included.”

                No other lines are ever mentioned because according to Judaism and Christianity all lines started from Adam and Eve.  Now I did say your version is a good one, only in that Cain goes out to get a wife from another village.  Theology doesn’t have a real answer for this.  I have read many explanations and the best of those is that Adam and Eve were first, but god created others after. Again, not biblical. The other is incest.   Your idea that god created a bunch of unimportant people first and then put Adam into a paradise is to me the best one, except that he creates the unimportant ones in his image too and male and female together, but he doesn’t create Eve  until asks Adam if there’s no animal he’d like to mate with, then has to create her from his rib.

                So ok, say it happened that way. Say he follows the path of Adam to Noah. Again you have a problem with incest being the only way to repopulate the earth. But the problem is, genetics shows clearly that’s not what happened.


                “You choose to see evil. The question is why? What need exists in you to see it?”

                Are you kidding? When you see evil you can’t tell? Obviously not.

                “ Human imperfection equates,in your mind, to an evil God.”

                We made this universe did we? We made ourselves?  Were your god to have created this the way it did I would have to conclude that it’s evil. He admits to have created evil. What more do you need? That’s intent. Don’t tell me creating evil intentionally isn’t evil.  Also, creating us with the ability to be evil, and the conditions that facilitate evil, you can’t come to any other conclusion than that it is evil. 

                “ Consumption of food is evil to you. Again, I wonder why. “

                It’s only evil if it was created that way with intent. If it’s just the way nature is, then of course it’s not evil. But if a conscious being created it this way, your version or any other, it’s evil intent.  We’re not eating air or dirt, we have to kill living things so we can live. Plant or animal, it’s alive, aware, scared, and if it’s an animal it suffers. 

                So, say in my lab I create microscopic beings.  Then it gets out that even though I could have created them in any way I wanted, I created them in a way in which they would have to kill and eat each other to survive, and that these things felt fear and suffered pain from this process, and I created diseases that would effect even children like cancer and Ebola etc, and then demanded they worship me or I’d put them in a place where they would suffer eternal fire and never die, wouldn’t you be the first to call me evil?  And you’d be right.  But when it comes to your god who you believe has done all that and more, he’s good? That’s hypocritical at best. Is it because he supposedly offers ever lasting life? I can think of no more selfish reason, can you?

                “I'd love to be presented with a valid and intelligent argument against belief. I continue to search for one. “

                Funny. I always wanted some one to come up an intelligent argument for a god. I too never found one.

                “ I will say, scientific theory continues to support the biblical narrative.”

                I certainly wouldn’t say that. Just the opposite.

                “. Is relativity a viable avenue toward a better understanding of the universe?”

                It’s proven itself time and time again.

                “Is multiverse pie in the sky?”

                It’s a hypothesis based on math. Not fact till its proven by experiment.

                “Is quantum physics all malarky? “

                Not entirely but it’s incomplete and it’s basic interpretations are constantly changing. Since Quantum field theory we know there are no individual subatomic particles and there is no wave practical duality.  All there is, is waves/vibrations in non material, energetic, transformative and creative fields. 

                Apparently no god required. Doesn’t mean there isn’t one, but if there isn’t it doesn’t matter.

                1. Live to Learn profile image82
                  Live to Learnposted 2 months agoin reply to this

                  I am aware of what the standard interpretation is. That interpretation has been in effect since the texts were written, which is when humanity was not in a position to have access to the facts we now have. If we look at it from your viewpoint that there is no God and they just made it up as they went along, then that makes sense. If you look at it from the viewpoint that there is a God and they just interpreted the information given; in light of the facts they had….that makes sense also.

                  Either way you chalk it up, we see the version that makes sense; in line with our world view.

                  And, I am aware that it is assumed that the text was compiled from sources whose views were different. I read a fascinating paper written by a professor, years ago, where he did a line by line commentary as he translated the ancient text of Genesis. I printed out about a hundred pages and wish I hadn’t lost it. I have not been able to find it again online.

                  I get where you are coming from about the beliefs coexisting and the authors attempting to unify, however; that is a belief. Nothing more. We have no proof that this is true. It is simply an agreement made. Now, you can come back with a statement that scholars agree; I will respond that not all scholars do. And I believe that if the book is of God, then we have to be open to new information in order to better understand the text.

                  From a non-believer standpoint this will look as if someone is just changing their belief structure as conflicting information is presented. I get that; but, this is one reason I believe it will be almost impossible to disprove belief in Y-H (without some incredibly new discoveries) because the text, when viewed with the most current information at hand, is always a simplistic explanation of the earliest march of time.

                  I don’t have any problem with Adam and Eve being real or not. I’ve never considered it a deal breaker one way or the other, because the story is more about the creation of sin (by our perception), than anything else. It is the moment we chose to create categories between right and wrong, good and evil. The moment we began to judge. Is it a singular moment, or an attempt to explain one of the things which we choose to do; which causes the most angst between humans?

                  I have no problem with evolution either. I will say that the theory of evolution has a lot of unanswered questions which remain. Every answer creates 100 more questions. I consider people who proclaim it settled science to be detrimental to our search for answers. I think they do more to stifle creative thought and research on the subject than all of the crazies I’ve spoken to who claim there were dinosaurs on the ark.

                  I will say that, like other nonconformist believers, I have some crazy theories. I would love to have a team of mathematicians at my disposal to explore one of them. I won’t bore you with the details, but it could effectively explain the disconnect between the scientific calculations for the age of the universe and a reasoned approach to the age of the earth through the Biblical text. I say reasoned because there are a lot of variables that may be in play on the text prior to our ability to verify anything through archaeology. Again, the professor who was doing the commentary had some very enlightening ideas on Genesis and the lineages written in it.

                  I won’t bother to respond to your comment about the moment they were thrown out of Eden. I’ve already stated my views on that.

                  If you look at the text, assuming Adam and Eve were historical figures, I would say your question of why make humanity and then put just Adam into the garden until he asks for a mate…maybe this is another example of God acquiescing to Man. But, anything else I would say at this juncture would be off the top of my head. I’ve never really thought about why. I would think if we look at Jewish Midrash at the story of Lilith; that might shed some light. The guy who wrote that long commentary I read had, in my mind, an interesting take. He thought Moses had taken the stories passed down and combined them into the story of Genesis. Considering the patriarchal nature of humanity it would make sense that Eve would be spoken of as an afterthought.

                  As to your comment about Adam needing Eve to mate with; I take the word mate to be synonymous with sex, which I always saw as subsequent to consumption of the fruit Prior to that I assumed they didn’t do such, since no offspring were the product of the time in the garden. I suppose if I were a guy I would have assumed sex was the required reward for giving up a rib.

                  However, I wouldn’t assume people were ‘unimportant’. It’s like if I decided to write a story of your lineage. That wouldn’t mean no one else was important.

                  I don’t think the problem of incest is something to worry about. I read an article where researchers have determined that we are descended from one man and one woman; which I found comforting. To think that even in the worst cataclysmic event there is still hope for the survival of the species. Prior to that I think they guestimated at least 200 people would be needed to ensure the survival of the species. But, Noah had several sons and those sons had wives from other families. It wasn’t quite the bottleneck that a singular creation of one male and one female would have created.

                  Either way. It happened or it didn’t. If it did, it obviously worked. If it didn’t then it’s a moot point. It’s like Christ. I never understand the evangelicals who proclaim you have to believe to be saved. I say, that was over 2000 years ago. With no real communication in all that time; only a fool would think nonbelief was a deal breaker.  Nonbelief is a natural part of our evolution as a thinking species. You don’t have to believe in good news to make it good news; and it isn’t good news if not believing in it negates the value of it.

                  As I stated (I think previously in this thread) I don’t advocate a free for all but we label a lot of things evil, or wrong, or bad. However, it is only bad if you choose to see it that way. If everyone doesn’t agree to label it such; what does that mean? Is it not bad? Is it universally bad if one person proclaims it to be? You see the world in a manner that is uniquely you. The same goes for me and everyone else.

                  The problem I see is that we attempt to push the conclusions a lifetime of experience has led us to as somehow superior to those of another. We justify our behavior, thus negating the ‘evil’ in our own actions; but don’t give others the full benefit of justification for theirs. How much bad would we see, how much evil, how much wrong, if we reserved judgement until we had not only all the facts but also gave full benefit of the doubt to others as we give ourselves and we created the same ‘mitigating circumstances’ scenarios we use to justify our own actions?

                  I cannot come to the conclusion that a Creator is evil. It’s like vegetarians. They slay me. I consider them to be egotistical and ignorant, to the extreme. Don’t eat meat. Think of how many life forms would be denied the experience of existence. Don’t eat meat. Think about the fact that it takes life to sustain life. I say if you claim to be a vegetarian because you believe in the sanctity of life, coexist peacefully with all life forms; don’t kill bugs in your house. Don’t kill rodents. Don’t eat plants. Don’t consume water. Don’t breathe. Life is contained in all of that. Life is lost when you use any of it for sustenance. To me, a vegetarian is simply deciding which life has value and which doesn’t. Based solely on how similar that life form is to his or her self. Your argument goes along those lines. You are deciding which life has value and which should be pitied., using yourself as the benchmark.

                  If you have a lab, and you think you can create a symbiotic ecosystem which is self-sustaining and does not involve any adverse interaction between all parts; please go for it and then show the work you hath wrought. I’d be very impressed.

                  You and I find the arguments of each other falling flat because we think about why we think the way we do and we are both searching for answers. I think the best example of full enlightenment I’ve ever heard was that it is the top of a mountain where you can look down and see all the paths leading to it. Whatever path you find works best for you is best for you. And, there have to be infinite numbers of ways to enlightenment because our minds are all islands. Whether created that way or simply a freak of nature, we are all alone; in the final analysis.

                  Most of the questions about relativity, multiple universes, etc. were simply to point out until we have a provable theory of everything; we have to remain open to all options. Well, not all options. You don’t have to have God as an option. You simply have to be open to answers from wherever they come from.

                  1. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
                    Slarty O'Brianposted 2 months agoin reply to this

                    Sorry for the delay. I haven't had much time to write lately.

                    “If we look at it from your viewpoint that there is no God and they just made it up as they went along, then that makes sense. If you look at it from the viewpoint that there is a God and they just interpreted the information given; in light of the facts they had….that makes sense also. “


                    Absolutely, except that if there were a god and he wanted to tell them this stuff, surely he/she/it could have made them understand. And could have put in details that even if they didn’t understand, we would.


                    “Either way you chalk it up, we see the version that makes sense; in line with our world view.”


                    Without a doubt.


                    “And, I am aware that it is assumed that the text was compiled from sources whose views were different. “


                    Good. Not many are.


                    “I get where you are coming from about the beliefs coexisting and the authors attempting to unify, however; that is a belief. Nothing more. We have no proof that this is true.”


                    Well we do have historic evidence that supports the idea, but no absolute proof, I agree.


                    “From a non-believer standpoint this will look as if someone is just changing their belief structure as conflicting information is presented.”


                    Yes, but that’s good. That’s how science works. Everything is conditional on the possibility of new information.

                    “ I get that; but, this is one reason I believe it will be almost impossible to disprove belief in Y-“


                    Well, the supernatural is said to not interact with the natural or we would be able to test for it and prove it or falsify it. How do you prove a god exists? Well, were it to show itself we’d all know with certainty. I know some say we wouldn’t believe anyway, but surely a god could prove itself beyond anyone’s doubt.  The other thing is, the bible is big on faith. No need for it if you can be certain. But to me, that’s just a way to keep people believing in a possibly nonexistent god.  The other idea is that we wouldn’t be “free” to choose if we knew with certainty. Which again is absurd. How can one make a truly free choice without all the facts?  So no, proving a god doesn’t exist is like trying to prove you don’t have access to weapons of mass destruction. I can say I don’t. You can’t find any, but it proves nothing.


                    “The moment we began to judge. Is it a singular moment, or an attempt to explain one of the things which we choose to do; which causes the most angst between humans? “


                    It’s the way we’re made, not a choice.  Do you choose your likes and dislikes? No, you have them. Yet everything you choose to do is based on feelings you don’t choose to have but like having. 


                    Again, if a god created us, it’s responsible for what we are as much as we are for what we do.


                    “Every answer creates 100 more questions.”


                    Absolutely.


                    “I consider people who proclaim it settled science to be detrimental to our search for answers.”


                    Well, yes and no. Evolution is a fact as a method for how things change. But no, not nearly all the questions about origins are answered. But evolution is not about origins. It starts only once life has begun. It’s not it’s source, though patterns like evolution are.


                    “I would think if we look at Jewish Midrash at the story of Lilith; that might shed some light.”


                    It might indeed. Lilith was Adam’s first wife. She wanted to be equal in everything. Adam disagreed, so did god, so she spoke the real name of god and instantly turned in to a wind demon. Lived by the red sea and spawned thousands of demon babies, who the angels murdered. In return she kills babies by crib death and has sex with human males in their dreams and kills them. 


                    But before she did all that, she was a Sumerian goddess who lived in a tree that a large snake moved into.   Also, there’s the story about her husband who was injured and dying. She produced 8 tree babies. One for each of his wounds.  One was called the lady of the rib, as she had been created to cure his rib wounds.


                    The tree and snake stories are much older than Judaism and the Hebrews by a couple thousand years at least. Sumerians had a lot of magic trees/gods/goddesses. Probably where the Hebrew stories originate. 


                    “Considering the patriarchal nature of humanity it would make sense that Eve would be spoken of as an afterthought.”


                    And yet, pre civilization hunter gatherers were not patriarchal for the most part, as far as we know. Early farming communities weren’t. Even the Sumerians, the first civilization we know of weren’t.  But at least some of the Hebrews were, and wrote it into their bible. Arabs are Semitic people too, and very patriarchal. Their bible too oppresses woman.  And of course, Christianity has the oppression of woman written in to it as well. 



                    “As to your comment about Adam needing Eve to mate with; I take the word mate to be synonymous with sex, which I always saw as subsequent to consumption of the fruit Prior to that I assumed they didn’t do such, since no offspring were the product of the time in the garden.”


                    Doesn’t seem they were there long. But really, why not? They were a male and a female. Why make them that way if sex was off the table? They just didn’t have those human feelings before even though all animals were made to go forth and multiply? No reason to be male or female if you don’t have sexual feelings.


                    “I suppose if I were a guy I would have assumed sex was the required reward for giving up a rib.”


                    Were there a god why the need to take a rib? Zero. This was clearly a story told to make women second class, owned by man. She is created for man, from man, and is ruled and owned by man. That’s the only reason to tell such a story.


                    Then, its her that eats the fruit first and gives it to him. He wimps out and says  she  made him do it. That made woman an evil thing in the eyes of Christian fathers.  I don’t know how any self respecting woman can believe this stuff and want to be Christian or Islamic. 


                    “However, I wouldn’t assume people were ‘unimportant’. It’s like if I decided to write a story of your lineage. That wouldn’t mean no one else was important.”


                    But no mention of them? Adam and Eve the first?  A lie? Or were the others Inferior so not worth talking about?  Adam not the first man, just the first Hebrew? But why make them separate from the rest?  Some say Adam was the first with free will. Meaning the others didn’t until Hebrews related to him mated with them.  Meaning until god tossed Adam out of the Garden the big original sin was contained. Nice guy to infect us all.


                    Also, look at Job. He losses everything because of a bet. Sure, in the end he gets his stuff back. But the original wife and kids are still dead. No one in the story cares about them, and they were innocent bystanders.  Job is the only important one.

                    Then theres the Egyptian plagues that kill thousands of innocent people no one cares about and who had nothing to do with anything.  No one but the Jews are important, as well as god glorifying himself.  The bible is full of stories where whole groups of people suffer for  no reason except to make a point to the “important” people.

                  2. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
                    Slarty O'Brianposted 2 months agoin reply to this

                    “I don’t think the problem of incest is something to worry about. I read an article where researchers have determined that we are descended from one man and one woman; which I found comforting.”


                    Not exactly. Our species didn’t just appear. Before there were modern chickens, there were lots of birds/proto-chickens that were almost modern chickens. One or several mutations that formed sapiens may have originated from one female, and then evolved from there.  But we aren’t a pure species. We are a product of several other species of humanoid, and before that we share a common ancestor that produced several humanoid species as well as apes and other primates. In the end we may well be directly due to one single celled animal and its specific mutations. Hardly the Adam and Eve of the bible.


                    “Nonbelief is a natural part of our evolution as a thinking species. You don’t have to believe in good news to make it good news; and it isn’t good news if not believing in it negates the value of it.”


                    I agree.  It doesn’t make sense that it would matter.  From my rather liberal Catholic upbringing, its how you live, not whether or not you believe.  Too bad more Christians don’t take that view. 


                    “As I stated (I think previously in this thread) I don’t advocate a free for all but we label a lot of things evil, or wrong, or bad. However, it is only bad if you choose to see it that way. If everyone doesn’t agree to label it such; what does that mean? Is it not bad? Is it universally bad if one person proclaims it to be? You see the world in a manner that is uniquely you. The same goes for me and everyone else. “

                    I disagree. Yes, good and evil are subjective, but they can also be objective. If I harm someone physically, that’s objective harm even to an objectively real subjective person.  What we call evil is intent to harm.  A tree falling on your head isn’t evil. A burglar hitting you on the head with a hammer is.   Objective harm comes in many forms.  So my golden rule is: do no intentional harm. 




                    “The problem I see is that we attempt to push the conclusions a lifetime of experience has led us to as somehow superior to those of another. “


                    Agreed 100 percent. But discussing many perspectives without trying to push your ideas is not a bad thing at all. And fighting for your position until its proven wrong isn’t either. But holding on to ideas that are obviously wrong is self deception.


                    “if we reserved judgement until we had not only all the facts but also gave full benefit of the doubt to others as we give ourselves and we created the same ‘mitigating circumstances’ scenarios we use to justify our own actions?”


                    I have no issue with this at all.


                    “I cannot come to the conclusion that a Creator is evil.”


                    Because we don’t have all the facts? Ok, so you have a few choices. The god of the bible is supposedly all mighty. It’s not bound by any rules or conditions, it makes them.  If that’s the case it could have created this any way it wanted. So if it created all this it had to have a reason.  What would that reason be?  Not companionship, certainly. If it wanted that it could have created other beings like itself. The only thing the bible says is that we’re here to be keepers of the earth. But all through the bible he’s constantly trying to glorify himself.  Are we just amusing?  That would mean cruelty.

                    We’re told that in heaven we’ll  get to sing his praises all day long. He demands worship; fans. He sounds like the typical egotistical tyrant of 3000 bce till now.  Kings often claimed divinity and were seen that way. 

                    Jews call him a vengeful god. But then, he’s the only god around, created us, so it can do with us as it likes.  It decrees morality, but isn’t bound by it himself.   Islam sees god in pretty much the same light. Sing his praise or else. Love my, worship me, obey me, or go to hell.   But Christianity ignores all that and trys to make him in to a nice guy. Problem is, you kept the old testament.

                    Ok, he makes us suffer because someone ate a forbidden fruit. I get it, though it makes no sense. But then if he gave us animals for food, why do they suffer? What sin did they commit?  This is the profile of a cruel egotistical tyrant. And he had to have his son murdered in order to forgive us? We had to murder a god to be saved? Come now, and this god is all powerful and can do what it likes, and it does this? And that’s good news?  It’s like a mafia don forgiving the trespasses of another mob if they’ll murder his son.  Sound sane to you

                    Now, if god isn’t all powerful and it had to do it according to natural rules, but could have done it in many ways, its either cruel or inept and made mistakes. But then, its had 4 billion years to fix its mistakes. And it hasn’t.

                    But if it could only do it this way, why do it  if not cruelty?  Were this all a simulation created in  the basement supercomputer of a 14 year old, and he or she knew the objective harm and suffering it was creating for its amusement,  I’d certainly call it cruel too.

                    So, sometimes the argument is; if you don’t know bad you won’t know good. So we have to suffer. We wouldn’t enjoy our achievements because we wouldn’t have to work for them. I don’t buy it for a number of reasons.  First off, that’s  the way it is now.  Its hindsight.  The idea is to get rid of suffering and evil, and make life better. If life was eventually perfect, you wouldn’t miss adversity, would you?  Would we bring evil back just so we’d know the difference? That would be ridiculous.

                    Therefore, what reason would a god have for creating this the way it is?  There’s another alternative. What if god is messed up? We are its problems manifest, and our existence works them out. Ours and everything else’s.  It does seem from science that the universe is constantly struggling for balance. Chaos breeds order.  Complexity emerges from constantly and consistently following simple rules over and over again under different conditions.

                    It’s as if the totality is striving for some form of perfection.  So either god is messed and trying to fix itself, or the totality itself is attempting to create the god state: absolute perfection. In other words, no god made us; we’re making god.   Now that would give life purpose, wouldn’t it?   

                    So who knows? 






                    “ It’s like vegetarians.”


                    I’m not a vegetarian exactly because no matter what I eat I’m killing something. That’s just how it is.  And again, it’s not an evil thing as long as it wasn’t done this way intentionally.


                    “To me, a vegetarian is simply deciding which life has value and which doesn’t. Based solely on how similar that life form is to his or her self. Your argument goes along those lines. You are deciding which life has value and which should be pitied., using yourself as the benchmark.”


                    No I’m not. Life is selfish, but only because it has to be.  That’s not inherently good or bad. It’s only bad if it was intentional.


                    “If you have a lab, and you think you can create a symbiotic ecosystem which is self-sustaining and does not involve any adverse interaction between all parts; please go for it and then show the work you hath wrought. I’d be very impressed. “


                    Were I a god I doubt I’d have a problem doing just that.  If I knew what I was creating would suffer because I was  restricted in doing it, I wouldn’t do it.  And who knows? Someday someone may well create such a world in a lab. I’ll be impressed too. But I’d be more impressed if we could find a way to do it here.

                    1. Live to Learn profile image82
                      Live to Learnposted 2 months agoin reply to this

                      “Absolutely, except that if there were a god and he wanted to tell them this stuff, surely he/she/it could have made them understand. And could have put in details that even if they didn’t understand, we would.”

                      You ever wonder what it would be like, going back in history’ and grabbing an adult? Really far back where they were still chipping away at stones to make spear heads? You have a limited time to instill a couple of ideas into their heads….what would you focus on?  What about if you took an incredibly large group of people who had come from a primitive culture, been enslaved for hundreds of years, treated like animals over generations? How would you work to bring them into a cohesive society which could evolve into a godly one?

                      We tend to look at things from a perspective of whom and what we are and where we are at the moment. If you were thrust into the past (not the same as creation, of course) you couldn’t change the entirety of mankind. You would focus on the individual, slowly educating and sharing ideas. You would have to work on their level, at the outset, in hopes that through time that individual could be brought up to the next level so that you could work to bring them up to another, then another, and at some point they might be close enough to your level to begin to understand concepts which had always been your goal to teach them.

                      Look at the mosaic laws. Anyone who thinks the Israelites weren’t a savage bunch need only look at those to see that this group needed some very, very basic lessons in fundamental basics of civilized behavior.
                      The story of Adam and Eve is little different. Having the capability of thought does not mean you actually do it. Could an ancient baby be transported here, raised in our society, and function well as an adult? Certainly. Could a modern baby be inserted into the past and be indistinguishable from another after being raised in that environment? Certainly. Adam and Eve are little more than a representation of the first ‘I am’ moment. The moment humanity opened its eyes as a thinking species. The moment of the realization of ‘I am me, what are you?’ The story focuses on the spiritual side of that moment; the ramifications of the realization and how that process devolved rather quickly.

                      “And, I am aware that it is assumed that the text was compiled from sources whose views were different. “


                      ‘Good. Not many are.’

                      Your opinion is indicative of the impression I get that you have little respect for the thought processes of others. It doesn’t really matter how the ideas were compiled, it is the intent that is important. We weren’t destined to follow, or lead. We were destined to think for ourselves. Or, as you would put it, that is the way we evolved.

                      “Well, the supernatural is said to not interact with the natural or we would be able to test for it and prove it or falsify it.”

                      That’s where I disagree with you. I believe the ‘supernatural’ is natural. We just don’t understand it. I think, on some levels at some point in the infinity of time, consciousness made a conscious decision not to understand it. Why? It is possible that there is much to be learned through the experience of enlightenment. It is said all souls existed from the beginning and will exist, in some form, in the end. The Christian view is in the fires of hell or the light of heaven.

                      ‘I am.’ It’s a hell of a realization. But, ‘Who am I?’ is the  lifelong journey. Think about it. We want to consider ourselves good. What is good? We are slowly evolving into an understanding of the question.  We are slowly finding ourselves in greater positions of ‘seeing’ more and more of our species within the world. Good and bad have been quantified within civilizations and now we are in the position to view how others have answered those questions and we are in a position to compare and reject, or accept, those judgments. As a species, if we survive, we will work our way toward a greater and greater good. Because that is how we are as a species.

                      As to your thoughts on the fact that you would believe if shown; would you? You are full of judgment and loathing. You look at this world through the eyes of someone who admittedly insists he could do a better job of creation. You look at the world through the eyes of a transient being within it. It’s like an ant laughing at Einstein because it can’t wrap its antenna around relativity. To judge from your position is ludicrous. We don’t yet fully understand reality so we can’t make long reaching judgments on its value.

                      ‘The other idea is that we wouldn’t be “free” to choose if we knew with certainty.’

                      I’d have to disagree with you on that one. If you knew, for a fact, there was a vengeful God who was capable and willing to throw you into a pit of fire, to suffer for all eternity; you’d probably do whatever you could to avoid that fate. So that argument, for those who believe in that outcome, is perfectly within the bounds of reason.

                      ‘Do you choose your likes and dislikes? No, you have them.’

                      I’m going to have to disagree on that one also. They were chosen at some point and time. Consciously and intelligently? Probably not. I’ve got a nephew who hates icing. He had a stomach virus in conjunction with the moment he went to a birthday party. He equates throwing up with eating cake. Did he choose that? Certainly. But that dislike is the result of an improper understanding of facts.

                      ‘Yet everything you choose to do is based on feelings you don’t choose to have but like having.’

                      Yes. Every choice is the result of processing information gathered by your senses and then choices made when processing that information.


                      ‘Again, if a god created us, it’s responsible for what we are as much as we are for what we do.’

                      To a certain degree. By your reasoning, a parent is responsible for the actions of their adult children. A parent must bear the guilt of birthing an eventual drug addict, a mass murderer or an abusive husband and, subsequently, the actions of all their grandchildren and great grandchildren and all others who came after. Your view is kind of like putting the original sin on the back of Eve.

                      ‘Yes and no. Evolution is a fact as a method for how things change. But no, not nearly all the questions about origins are answered. But evolution is not about origins. It starts only once life has begun. It’s not it’s source, though patterns like evolution are.’

                      To quote you, good. Not many are.

                      ‘It might indeed. Lilith was Adam’s first wife. She wanted to be equal in everything. Adam disagreed, so did god, so she spoke the real name of god and instantly turned in to a wind demon. Lived by the red sea and spawned thousands of demon babies, who the angels murdered. In return she kills babies by crib death and has sex with human males in their dreams and kills them.’

                      One would think, since I mentioned Lilith, I would know the story of Lilith; but thanks for the recap. Since Lilith is relegated to Midrash, other legends bearing the same name don’t really make much sense, as an argument for her not being real in the first place. She wasn’t real. It was Midrash. It’s used as a narrative to clarify a given set of circumstances. The story of Lilith was used to ensure the subservience of women.

                      I wouldn’t say that the Sumerian stories were copied by the Hebrews, primarily because we do not have a clear and undisputed archaeological record of the Hebrews. The best explanation I’ve ever heard was that all ancient man had access to the same facts and interpreted them in line with what their understanding of reality. The Hebrew understanding survived because it is the one which has remained most in line with reality as humanity can discern it as time passed.

                      ‘And yet, pre civilization hunter gatherers were not patriarchal for the most part, as far as we know. Early farming communities weren’t. Even the Sumerians, the first civilization we know of weren’t.  But at least some of the Hebrews were, and wrote it into their bible. Arabs are Semitic people too, and very patriarchal. Their bible too oppresses woman.  And of course, Christianity has the oppression of woman written in to it as well.’

                      Again, there you go coming to broad ranging conclusions based on your preconceived prejudices. We don’t have the faintest idea how hunter gatherer societies were organized. Women were not ‘equal’ in ancient Sumeria although there is evidence they had a better plight in life than other cultures of the time. As to the Bible ‘oppressing’ women. Yes, women were suppressed but it is the Biblical text which points to the fact that in the eyes of God Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.. The Bible is an assortment of history, common belief, interspersed with divine guidance. We have to read, think about the spirit of the law and apply that spirit to our actions.

                      If God exists then reality is of God. What do you observe? Evolution. At all levels, in some way. What, through observation, have we discerned about human civilization? It evolves, just as does all else within reality. Nothing is stagnant. Nothing stands still. It is our duty, as thinking life forms, to strive to evolve to the good. Toward greater inclusiveness; toward greater compassion as we find ourselves in the position to identify that which is wrong, as it applies to our interaction with a fellow individual. It’s been a long road but we have made progress. I can’t look at the past in the same light as the present. Time is a progression and we have to take into account the evolution of thought.

                      ‘Doesn’t seem they were there long. But really, why not? They were a male and a female. Why make them that way if sex was off the table? They just didn’t have those human feelings before even though all animals were made to go forth and multiply? No reason to be male or female if you don’t have sexual feelings.’

                      Really? Sure, sex is good. We all enjoy it. Do kids have it? Why not? The story of Adam and Eve is the journey from a state of innocence to evolving out of it. From the way I view the story, sex would not be a part of the Garden because Adam and Eve just were. They were not viewing the world from a perspective of ‘how is this different from that’. They just were. Their original purpose was not in line with the original purpose listed in the first chapter of Genesis. Their original purpose was to set the stage for the enlightenment of future generations. To set the stage for understanding, on a very basic level, why we are the way we are. You, again, are viewing things from the perception of a transient existence. You are thinking ‘how ignorant to think that a person could live without the thought of sex’. I’m looking at it from the viewpoint that, if we are eternal creatures, sex encompasses such a miniscule part of our eternal existence that its absence during the story is of no import.

                      ‘Were there a god why the need to take a rib? Zero. This was clearly a story told to make women second class, owned by man. She is created for man, from man, and is ruled and owned by man. That’s the only reason to tell such a story.’

                      I’d agree that we interpret it such and it is a foolish belief. But, the survival of ancient societies depended on structure. If that was the structure of that time then interpretation would need to reflect that need.


                      ‘Then, its her that eats the fruit first and gives it to him. He wimps out and says  she  made him do it. That made woman an evil thing in the eyes of Christian fathers.  I don’t know how any self-respecting woman can believe this stuff and want to be Christian or Islamic.’

                      So, a self-respecting woman isn’t acutely aware of the fact that people transfer blame, those in power look for ways to maintain it, and women have gotten a bad rap throughout most of modern history? Interesting. And, you believe that self-respecting women should believe that, without the influence of a monotheistic belief, life would have been just peachy keen for them? Again, interesting.

                      ‘But no mention of them? Adam and Eve the first?’
                      The text doesn’t support that statement. What of the ones created and told to ‘go forth and multiply?’

                      ‘Or were the others Inferior so not worth talking about?  Adam not the first man, just the first Hebrew? But why make them separate from the rest?  Some say Adam was the first with free will. Meaning the others didn’t until Hebrews related to him mated with them.  Meaning until god tossed Adam out of the Garden the big original sin was contained. Nice guy to infect us all.’

                      I feel like I am repeating myself but, again, it isn’t that no one else was worth talking about. You have plenty of sources where ancient man is talking about ancient man. They don’t talk about the Hebrews. Should we condemn all of these writings because they don’t explain all the beliefs of other civilizations on earth at the same time? I say no, apparently you feel differently. Adam didn’t infect anyone. That was an in-depth look at the loss of innocence. It shows the moment we step away from what was hoped for Adam and Adam choosing to take a different course. It is a lesson in the fact that no matter what God might have done with the individual, the individual will always chose free will over blind obedience; and the ups and downs of the ramifications of that choice. It is a theme played out over and over during the Old Testament text. God steps up to the plate, makes his presence known, does something fairly nice and at some point the portion of humanity which has benefited from the intervention strays again. It is a monumental attestation to the fact that God cannot play an active role in our reality.

                      ‘Also, look at Job. He losses everything because of a bet. Sure, in the end he gets his stuff back. But the original wife and kids are still dead. No one in the story cares about them, and they were innocent bystanders.  Job is the only important one.’

                      Yeh. That particular aspect of the story is creepily uncaring. But, it is also a lesson in whatever trials and tribulations crash into our existence we have the capability to persevere and to find a silver lining for ourselves. I suppose, if we looked at the story of each individual involved, we could ferret out a silver lining for those individuals; maybe not. But, it is also a story which highlights how insignificant we are, as individuals, in the grand scheme of the universe and how significant we are at the same time.

                      ‘Then theres the Egyptian plagues that kill thousands of innocent people no one cares about and who had nothing to do with anything.  No one but the Jews are important, as well as god glorifying himself.  The bible is full of stories where whole groups of people suffer for  no reason except to make a point to the “important” people.’

                      Conversely, we have the story of the Jews who are, in my opinion, unarguably the most persecuted people of history. But, again, the story is an incredible lesson in why an active God cannot be a part of our reality. Can you imagine if you found yourself enslaved, then a guy came along and said God was going to free you and God did, with plagues that killed thousands of innocent people, moved in front of you as a great pillar of fire, parted a sea and dried the bed for you to walk across, sent a plague through your part of the camp to kill ungrateful whiners, and dropped food out of the sky to keep you alive? Would you react as the Israelites did? We can’t appreciate the gifts of God because nothing is good enough. We always want more. We always want everything, but we do not want to sacrifice free will in the process. Blind obedience is not in our nature and without blind obedience we have no right to be elevated above others who are just like us. God has shown that it is not in our best interests for God to find us. We have to find God.

                      ‘Not exactly. Our species didn’t just appear. Before there were modern chickens, there were lots of birds/proto-chickens that were almost modern chickens. One or several mutations that formed sapiens may have originated from one female, and then evolved from there.  But we aren’t a pure species. We are a product of several other species of humanoid, and before that we share a common ancestor that produced several humanoid species as well as apes and other primates. In the end we may well be directly due to one single celled animal and its specific mutations. Hardly the Adam and Eve of the bible.’

                      You missed the point. Whatever came before, or after, there was a bottleneck which could have caused our extinction and it didn’t. The point is that we have a theory where a thriving species can arise from only two individuals. It has incredibly wide reaching ramifications not only for our species but all species on earth today.


                      ‘I agree.  It doesn’t make sense that it would matter.  From my rather liberal Catholic upbringing, its how you live, not whether or not you believe.  Too bad more Christians don’t take that view.’
                      There you go again, pushing your personal belief as superior to that of others.

                      ‘I disagree. Yes, good and evil are subjective, but they can also be objective. If I harm someone physically, that’s objective harm even to an objectively real subjective person.  What we call evil is intent to harm.  A tree falling on your head isn’t evil. A burglar hitting you on the head with a hammer is.   Objective harm comes in many forms.  So my golden rule is: do no intentional harm.’

                      Yes. The spirit of the intent determines what is right or wrong, good or evil. But, you have to view the spirit of intent from all involved perspectives. If I feel that you have harmed me and you feel you haven’t then you have to determine intent and desire. I maintain that taking offense is more a choice of action than it is a reaction. Because not all react in the same manner so you cannot universally claim evil. But, you also have to look inside yourself and determine if you aspired to harm. If so, then we would both be at fault, you for attempting to inflict harm and me for embracing words in a negative way.

                      I say I don’t advocate a free for all because a civil society has to have rules of conduct. For example, you can’t steal. It is wrong, but on what level? What compelled your actions? That is where the spirit of the law comes into play. That is where giving others the same benefit of the doubt you give yourself becomes important and where looking at ‘mitigating circumstances’ is imperative. That is where sometimes we find ourselves judging evil where it didn’t truly exist. If we don’t attempt to mentally walk in the shoes of another we cannot be fair and equitable. We are in jeopardy of living by the letter and not the spirit of the intent of our vision for a civil society. We can initially ‘hurt’ each other, but we can also learn to understand that ‘hurting’ us is only a byproduct of the ‘hurt’ which compelled an individual to act in a certain manner. We can find out how we, as a society, failed that individual and learn from our mistakes so another person does not walk the same path; sharing the truths we have found to help others see how actions create reactions over and over again.

                      But, we don’t do that. We create more and more laws. We argue simple points within them to leave some feeling victimized and some feeling that their actions which are detrimental to others are justified; without really justifying them. We have a society here in America which is growing more despondent (resulting in higher and higher suicide rates) and getting angrier and angrier because instead of attempting to walk in the shoes of others we simply judge them evil and feel self-righteous in the process. We spit on the spirit of the intent of the law while scrambling to enslave our neighbors in the letter of it. Sorry, I digress.


                      ‘But discussing many perspectives without trying to push your ideas is not a bad thing at all. And fighting for your position until its proven wrong isn’t either. But holding on to ideas that are obviously wrong is self deception.’

                      I agree. But, self-deception is not limited to those who believe in God. Self-deception is also displayed by those who hold preconceived notions of God and cannot allow for the possibility that their conclusions are not arrived at even through the same experiences by others. You, and others, deny existence because of your experience and your interpretation of whatever religious text you choose as your reasons for non-belief.

                      I had a life changing experience once which proves to me, beyond a shadow of a doubt, on the existence of God and, by the experience I had, Jesus. I’ve always wondered why I cannot replicate that moment. Is it me? Am I unworthy? Have I done something to drive God from my life? Those questions do plague me from time to time. I assume that if I am ever in such a time of angst, and need, I will experience such a moment again. The fact that I can’t recreate that moment doesn’t negate my belief in God or the reality of that moment, it reinforces my acceptance that there are things I cannot understand. So, I keep my eyes open. I spend a great deal of time reflecting on these questions, reading as much as I can on discoveries from all angles within the scientific community, to help me better understand the nature of reality and, hopefully, find that little piece of the puzzle which will help me put that experience in perspective. Will that piece negate belief in God? It can’t but it can more greatly enhance my understanding of the force behind that moment. It could cause 180 degree shift in my definition of the term God, but facts remain firmly in place which limit some options.

                      ‘We’re told that in heaven we’ll  get to sing his praises all day long. He demands worship; fans. He sounds like the typical egotistical tyrant of 3000 bce till now.  Kings often claimed divinity and were seen that way.’

                      Again, I will say that the Old Testament is a study in what God would have to look like, if he were an active force in our world and a testament as to why such a world cannot exist. The New Testament is a reflection of how God is. If the God of the Old Testament is an accurate reflection of God then Jesus would have come with an army, smiting the Romans with a flaming sword, and sending a bevy of plagues to boot. Didn’t happen. We can learn from that or we can choose not to.

                      ‘Jews call him a vengeful god. But then, he’s the only god around, created us, so it can do with us as it likes.  It decrees morality, but isn’t bound by it himself.   Islam sees god in pretty much the same light. Sing his praise or else. Love my, worship me, obey me, or go to hell.   But Christianity ignores all that and trys to make him in to a nice guy. Problem is, you kept the old testament.’

                      Yes. The Old Testament is important in understanding who God is, and isn’t. It’s like studying history. If you stop at World War II, claim that is indicative of all that humanity is, you might as well just hurry AI along and hope it eventually annihilates this evil race.

                      ‘Ok, he makes us suffer because someone ate a forbidden fruit. I get it, though it makes no sense. But then if he gave us animals for food, why do they suffer? What sin did they commit?  This is the profile of a cruel egotistical tyrant.’

                      By that thinking, we can assume you also believe that shielding our children from things while they are growing up is wrong, unless we continue to do so once they reach adulthood.

                      ‘And he had to have his son murdered in order to forgive us? We had to murder a god to be saved?’

                      Again, human evolution goes along a linear path. You cannot judge that by modern standards. That gave a path away from animal sacrifice. For the ancients, it was life changing. Can you imagine when they moved the ark from one place to the other and they sacrificed animals at each step along the way? Ignorance by our standards. Or, the Romans sacrificing in their temples? The cultures who sacrificed humans to their gods? Theirs was not our world. But, I forget. You think God should have just arrived in Ur, or given suitcases full of books with scientific evidence explaining the theory of everything to Adam or Abraham; along with video proof of the afterlife. Since he didn’t, he’s just oh so cruel to let humanity grow, learn and evolve.

                      ‘Now, if god isn’t all powerful and it had to do it according to natural rules, but could have done it in many ways, its either cruel or inept and made mistakes. But then, its had 4 billion years to fix its mistakes. And it hasn’t.’

                      Again, your argument would hold infinitely more strength if you could present me with an alternative scenario where a God exists and reality can exist, without natural and man-made circumstances existing which can be categorized as good, or evil.

                      ‘But if it could only do it this way, why do it  if not cruelty?  Were this all a simulation created in  the basement supercomputer of a 14 year old, and he or she knew the objective harm and suffering it was creating for its amusement,  I’d certainly call it cruel too.’

                      Cruel? Certainly, if the 14 year old’s intent was to cause harm and suffering for his amusement. But, is there popcorn in heaven?

                      ‘So, sometimes the argument is; if you don’t know bad you won’t know good. So we have to suffer. We wouldn’t enjoy our achievements because we wouldn’t have to work for them. I don’t buy it for a number of reasons.  First off, that’s  the way it is now.  Its hindsight.  The idea is to get rid of suffering and evil, and make life better. If life was eventually perfect, you wouldn’t miss adversity, would you?  Would we bring evil back just so we’d know the difference? That would be ridiculous.’

                      And, I’ll counter that with the fact that we will always categorize. We will always judge good and bad. However much we evolve as a species we will always find reasons to say life is not perfect, we will always find reasons to believe we are suffering adversity and we will always define some things as evil and those definitions will change with each stage of our collective evolution. If you don’t believe that, just look at different moments in history and different societies.

                      ‘Therefore, what reason would a god have for creating this the way it is?  There’s another alternative. What if god is messed up? We are its problems manifest, and our existence works them out. Ours and everything else’s.  It does seem from science that the universe is constantly struggling for balance. Chaos breeds order.  Complexity emerges from constantly and consistently following simple rules over and over again under different conditions.’

                      Interesting, because (the struggles of the universe to the side) I see society as a constant fight for order and positive evolution. Chaos causes our desire for order, but chaos is always held at bay by our desire to work together toward order. I think if we do solve all of the manifest problems that success is evidence that God did not fail; but prevailed, because we start with diametrically opposed premises.

                      ‘It’s as if the totality is striving for some form of perfection.  So either god is messed and trying to fix itself, or the totality itself is attempting to create the god state: absolute perfection. In other words, no god made us; we’re making god.   Now that would give life purpose, wouldn’t it?’
                      Or, we are made in the image of God, the universe is made in the image of God and it is all a time line of how God achieved some form of perfection. Maybe, our likeness will end up being our ability to bring order out of the chaos of humanity. Maybe the natural forces we observe are a reflection of the obstacles God experienced in the process of bringing some semblance of order to the chaos of the beginning. Who knows?  One thing I do know is that railing against God serves no purpose other than self-indulgence.

                      ‘I’m not a vegetarian exactly because no matter what I eat I’m killing something. That’s just how it is.  And again, it’s not an evil thing as long as it wasn’t done this way intentionally.’

                      ‘No I’m not. Life is selfish, but only because it has to be.  That’s not inherently good or bad. It’s only bad if it was intentional.’

                      ‘Were I a god I doubt I’d have a problem doing just that.  If I knew what I was creating would suffer because I was  restricted in doing it, I wouldn’t do it.’

                      Again, self-indulgent and totally useless, except as an opportunity for negativity. Without proof that another system of reality is possible, you are operating on belief and bias. I will take an imperfect reality over the possibility of no reality any day of the week.

                      1. jonnycomelately profile image81
                        jonnycomelatelyposted 2 months agoin reply to this

                        I can only begin to digest a small amount of what has been written here.

                        Isn't what's quoted a reasonable summary of what Christainity (especially the evangelical variety) tries to do in order to gain coverts?    Is it not stemming from a presumption of superiority?

                        And please tell me what you envisage as a "godly society."  Is it not a collection of people who presume they are superior to an un-godly bunch?

                        And whom do you accept as being an infallible judge of the essential  difference?

                        1. jonnycomelately profile image81
                          jonnycomelatelyposted 2 months agoin reply to this

                          Sorry for the typo blooper.  Covert should read convert, lol!

                        2. Live to Learn profile image82
                          Live to Learnposted 2 months agoin reply to this

                          I'm talking about the Israelites, in the wilderness. You've seen me repeatedly comment on their savagery. Maybe 'godly' was a poor word choice, considering the audience and the difference we have in definitions; but maybe not. The result probably would fit your definition of a godly society. And it sucked.

                          The intent of the entire exercise of the Exodus was to gather a people to God, give them freedom in every way. Physically, God would protect them. Spiritually, because they were to benefit from the presence of God. And the entire lesson shows the effort was fruitless, on the physical and spiritual scale. The diaspora showed the end of that lesson. Government can't be trusted to be godly. Theirs is the business of ensuring behavior patterns of all fit the minimum requirements of a semblance of order. You can't force people to do what is 'good'. Because 'good' requires an understanding of why it is good, not legislation and constant fine tuning until good is simply an exercise in following the letter of an ever increasing set of laws.

                          And that lesson was left to sink in until Jesus hit the stage. I've always wondered why, if Jesus is God Incarnate, why does everyone always go back to the letter of the law? If his teachings should take precedent (God, fairly unfiltered) why search the letter in hopes of ferreting out some spiritual mystery?

                          Who is the infallible judge? It comes down to the individual, doesn't it? That is what Jesus taught. To look in your heart to find the truth. If adultery is wrong, the thought of it is, also. Find the why of that truth and apply it to other scenarios and you'll understand.

                          Edit. I'd also like to add that doing what others consider to be good, because they consider it to be such, is not the same as doing good, spiritually. Following is not being. I've known plenty of people who do what is considered to be the right thing but begrudge the fact that they 'had' to do it. If you don't understand the why, the action is an exercise in confusion and angst.

        6. jonnycomelately profile image81
          jonnycomelatelyposted 8 weeks ago

          From my perspective, as soon as I see you claim to be a "follower of Christ," I detect a bias, that sets yourself apart from myself who does not make such a claim.
          Is bias a fault?  Not necessarily, but it's a fact of life which needs to be recognised if we are to gain understanding.

          1. Live to Learn profile image82
            Live to Learnposted 8 weeks agoin reply to this

            I have no idea why you detect a bias. It is your bias. If you say you love chocolate and I say I prefer caramel;  am I insulting you?

            This falls into the category of what I was speaking of in an earlier comment. If you claim harm and I didn't intend harm... who's at fault? You, for choosing to take offense. I had no intent to harm.

            1. jonnycomelately profile image81
              jonnycomelatelyposted 8 weeks agoin reply to this

              As you rightly say, Diane shared her belief.  I greatly respect Diane and have said so publicly on more than one occasion.  But should that restrict me in stating my opinion about christian matters in general? Why would you suppose I intend to insult or belittle Diane by doing so?  Is it not your judgement that is triggered by your own "follower of Christ" bias?
              Yes, I am biased also.  I am biased on the side of self defense, against the christian presumption that anyone who is not christian is one of 'them," not "us."
              Tribalism.  It was true of those people coming out of Egypt and it's true of us today.
              If you, L-to-L, see yourself as a "follower of Christ," please describe for us the Christ you try to emulate.  Is there only one aspect of the Christ which is authentic? Or many?

              1. Live to Learn profile image82
                Live to Learnposted 8 weeks agoin reply to this

                You continually come from a defensive position when I see no-one playing offense.  My claim to be a follower of Christ does not prohibit your movement in any direction. I shouldn't have to deny my nature to appease yours, unless my nature seeks to enslave yours. Although I consider your stand to be just that, in as much as you appear to think only your beliefs warrant respect.

                I grant you that evangelicals can come off as condescending to me and the whole 'relationship with Christ' claim is a bit of a mystery, but that is their belief just as yours is yours.

                My statement as to being a follower of Christ (since the mouse in your pocket wanted you to include him in the request for clarification) is simply that I believe he was God in the flesh. I judge my actions by his example. Of course I fall short, and always will, but I hold him up as the example of perfect human behavior.

                Now, I can only use that by my idea of who he was. He didn't appear to judge anyone, he was kind to all, he didn't advocate religious conflict. He advocated understanding the why of your actions. To me, the point was so simple it's easily lost to those who need mystery. I remember reading a quote from the Dalai Lama about smart people not making good Buddhists. The point being people want to think they are smart and they want others to agree with them. The Bible says Jesus, even as a child, had an understanding that amazed the rabbis. That reflects the Dalai Lama's remark. Understanding what we should do isn't rocket science. We make it rocket science because we want to think we are good while ignoring the needs of others. We spend so much time searching for validation of our actions without caring about the effect.

                I think religion hijacked Christ. But, isn't that the way things always go in human endeavors?  A good idea gets diluted over time,in order to be more and more inclusive, those in power gain more power, and man enslaves man? We allow it to happen because it is easier than caring about others and having faith in them to care back.

                1. dianetrotter profile image68
                  dianetrotterposted 8 weeks agoin reply to this

                  I agree..  Religious and "spiritual" people have hijacked Christ..  I don't even know what spiritual but not religious means.  Often non-Christians will say they are Christians to try to neutralize a position taken by Christians.  Example, sex outside of marriage is sin according to the Bible.  Pseudo-Chriistians will say that times have changed.

                  1. Live to Learn profile image82
                    Live to Learnposted 8 weeks agoin reply to this

                    I'd have to counter that with Jesus inviting anyone without sin to cast the first stone. Times haven't changed, people will always be people, looking to judge the actions of others.

                    1. dianetrotter profile image68
                      dianetrotterposted 8 weeks agoin reply to this

                      I wasn't implying that Christians don't commit adultery or other sins.  The point is that we are supposed to ask forgiveness..  The problem is with people who think it is ok to be disobedient and do not believe the Bible is relevant today..  Christians should be convicted that what they are doing is wrong and do 1 John 1:9.  Donald Trump says he doesn't sin.  That is not consistent with Christianity..

                      1. Live to Learn profile image82
                        Live to Learnposted 8 weeks agoin reply to this

                        Agreed. But, Christians must, individually, put their own house in order, keep it in order, and understand it is each individual's right to do so also, by their own conscience.

                        Too often, those who profess to be Christian and preach their beliefs resemble empty sepulchres more than anything else. Embrace love God, love your neighbor as yourself and leave the rest to God. Conversion happens more effectively by the example of the good in your own life through belief than it does with a weaponized Bible. Jesus is proof of that.

                        1. dianetrotter profile image68
                          dianetrotterposted 8 weeks agoin reply to this

                          True

                2. jonnycomelately profile image81
                  jonnycomelatelyposted 8 weeks agoin reply to this

                  You are free to envisage a Jesus of your choosing. 
                  I see a courageous man, an upstart, who dressed and behaved provocatively towards the accepted and respected officialdom of his time. Never did he nor would he claim himself to be God.
                  I see the christ-ism of our time as a carefully crafted control mechanism, used by governments, commerce, fanatical groups, entrepreneurs, to gain control of human minds.
                  It seems to me they have largely succeeded.

                  This link to The Conversation will help to explain my point of view, if you care to read it.

                  http://theconversation.com/a-christmas- … he%20world

                  1. Live to Learn profile image82
                    Live to Learnposted 8 weeks agoin reply to this

                    Well, when Jesus said I AM and everyone fell I'd say that is an indication. The resurrection is an indicator also. Walking on water, healing the sick, raising the dead, making the blind see.... I don't know. Another indicator, to me.

                    Your comments make him sound more of a showman, possibly a cross dresser, since no evidence exists that he dressed provocatively I have no idea where that imaginary tidbit was born.

                    But, I agree some sects have highjacked a lot. The Catholics come to mind as the best example. I like Catholics as individuals but so much of their belief is so far removed from the narrative of the apostles I scratch my head. Other ideas like prosperity ministry, Jehovah witness and Mormons, that's odd to me also.

                    I guess I've always been a thinker, always been willing to turn my back on what I see as bad theology and always used Jesus as the sieve to ferret out whether something sounds godly or expedient. I've never been hoodwinked, never been taken advantage of by a church or clergy. I have no beefs or biases which prohibit me from finding the good hidden in the bad.

                    God within each of us really is just that. We find the good hidden in the bad of each of us. But, if you don't search for your good and believe in the good of others it is easy to be blinded by the bad.

                    1. jonnycomelately profile image81
                      jonnycomelatelyposted 8 weeks agoin reply to this

                      That's right.  When he (supposedly, because there is no absolute proof the man ever existed) said I AM, that is the "God Within."  That is where we find the truth.  It is the way.  And it's the well-spring of life.
                      If he was an enlightened person, he would never have declared himself God above all else.
                      We humans are very clever at building up metaphorical idols to suit our beliefs.  Yes, that is true of myself also.
                      As for the physical resurrection, the Walking on water, healing the sick, raising the dead, making the blind see.....what a wonderful set of show-biz tricks to get a following!

                      1. Live to Learn profile image82
                        Live to Learnposted 8 weeks agoin reply to this

                        As to the I AM, you have to remember he was Son of Man. But, belief in Jesus begins with a belief in a benevolent universe. You build from that. If you don't start with that premise, of course you can easily debunk the existence of anything you can't feel and touch in the here and now.

                        As I've always said, non belief is natural and part of the grand plan, or there is no grand plan. Non belief makes perfect sense, from the right angle.

                        1. jonnycomelately profile image81
                          jonnycomelatelyposted 8 weeks agoin reply to this

                          I have sometimes known the Here & Now during meditation.  Within that space there has been no feeling, no physical sensation.
                          This is purely from my own perspective, showing what is possible, but each to their own.

                      2. dianetrotter profile image68
                        dianetrotterposted 8 weeks agoin reply to this

                        I think the problem for many people is distance in time.  In US history, how do we know George Washington was the first president.  It is documented.  How do we know about past wars - documented.  There is documented proof that Jesus walked the earth.  When approached from a skeptical point of view, it is easy to say prove it to me. 

                        Lee Strobel, a lawyer and journalist, was shocked that his wife came home one day and said she was a Christian.  He started out on a journey to prove that Christianit was a hoax..  He became a Christian by proving what he sought to disprove..  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Case_for_Christ

                        I hope this is not sounding superior.  Do you think ALL Christians try to be superior?

                        Our mission is to show God's love and hope for the future.  If Christians are not doing that, they are failing miserably.

                        1. jonnycomelately profile image81
                          jonnycomelatelyposted 8 weeks agoin reply to this

                          No Diane, I accept that most Christians don't try to be"superior."  Neither do I regard myself, or atheism, as superior.
                          Beliefs, either personally chosen or part of an inherent culture, I can respect because they can form an important anchor for people's lives.  They can inspire, motivate, support, lend stability.
                          But beliefs and belief systems can alternatively be used for suppression, ulterior motive, imprisonment, coersion and control.
                          These latter negative traits promote anything but hope and love.  They can also be applied for egotistical purposes and curtailment of choice, pulling a veil over greed and selfishness.
                          Hypocracy knows no bounds.
                          In my early life, I was strongly in to christianity.  Around the age of 40-45 I saw rigid, obstinate, ignorant and unloving application of scripture and interpretations.  I questioned yet found no one willing to open their heart to other points of view.  So I explored further afield.   That led me to other possible pathways.  One of those was Hinduism; another was Buddhism.  In the latter I have found what for me is a shining light of understanding.  But it's also an open-ended journey which is totally in tune with the message of Christ, yet without the twisted and exploited interpretations of church and chapel.
                          Within all of these religions there is superstition.  Each of us is free to decifer, but to do that requires an open mind.

              2. Live to Learn profile image82
                Live to Learnposted 8 weeks agoin reply to this

                I have a question for you. I see you commenting repeatedly, demanding answers from any who profess belief in Christ. Demanding answers, as if you are some judge and jury. What about you? You claim your belief is in you. Why should any respect a belief which espouses no concern for others? No responsibility to other human beings? It's all about you, from what I've read of your responses. Do you consider a selfish philosophy to be of value?

            2. dianetrotter profile image68
              dianetrotterposted 8 weeks agoin reply to this

              There is a division with a mission.  The mission is to invite those who are not followers of Christ to become followers of Christ.  It is a matter of freewill.  The door is open. The person chooses to enter or stay out.  There should be no hatred when a person declines the invitation.

            3. promisem profile image97
              promisemposted 8 weeks agoin reply to this

              If following the true meaning of Christ is based on a truth, then it is not a fault.

              1. wilderness profile image96
                wildernessposted 8 weeks agoin reply to this

                And if it based on a belief rather than truth then it is a bias, and perhaps a fault as well.

                Your point?

                1. Jw Worcester profile image80
                  Jw Worcesterposted 8 weeks agoin reply to this

                  So what is truth if Jesus isn't?

                  1. Live to Learn profile image82
                    Live to Learnposted 8 weeks agoin reply to this

                    If you can't demonstrate it to be a truth to everyone...it has to be accepted as a belief.

                    1. jonnycomelately profile image81
                      jonnycomelatelyposted 8 weeks agoin reply to this

                      Thank god, christians aren't always right!

                      1. Live to Learn profile image82
                        Live to Learnposted 8 weeks agoin reply to this

                        Again, only you are claiming Christians claim they are always right. Sounds as if you have issues unique to you.

                        1. jonnycomelately profile image81
                          jonnycomelatelyposted 8 weeks agoin reply to this

                          No, I was having a light-hearted dig.
                          If your god is well secured in your mind, he should be able to survive the occasional humour.  Or is that taboo?

                          1. jonnycomelately profile image81
                            jonnycomelatelyposted 8 weeks agoin reply to this

                            No, I was having a light-hearted dig.
                            If your god is well secured in your mind, he should be able to survive the occasional humour.  Or is that taboo?
                            And you have stated something very profound here:
                            "If you can't demonstrate it to be a truth to everyone...it has to be accepted as a belief."
                            Go to Top of the Class.
                            Except that it does not have to be, and is not, accepted by everyone.
                            Thus there is room in this world for all of our perceptions, provided there is genuine mutual respect.
                            But....the Believer always preserves a But....
                            For myself also:  But....please don't try to dominate the world by saying there is only room for one belief.
                            Wishing everyone here, your families too, a safe, happy and memorable Festive Season.

                          2. Live to Learn profile image82
                            Live to Learnposted 8 weeks agoin reply to this

                            Well, if that was humor, ok.

                  2. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
                    Slarty O'Brianposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

                    Clearly Jesus isn't, at least not the way he's portrayed. Jesus was a Jew. He never wanted anyone to be anything else. When he died his brother took over the church. They followed Jesus but were devout Jews.

                    Paul never met Jesus. He was chastised by James for teaching lies. But he was teaching the Romans and non-Jews. He was both a Jew and a Roman citizen.

                    The Jews hated the Romans. In the Dead Sea scrolls he's seen as a liar and a fraud.

                    When Rome took over the religion he took Paul's version because it was palatable to Romans, where as the Palestinian version hated Rome. Jesus was supposed to save them from Rome.

                    Then Rome did what it always did; it made Jesus a god. And then to  go with the one god idea, turned him into a trinity. Doing that was common in Rome. Then Constantine had every other version destroyed, and "heretics murdered. Hence why the scrolls had to be hidden. And hence why Rome blamed the Jews for his death, when he was actually murdered for being a threat to Rome.

                    So what you all believe is a  perversion of what the religion was supposed to be.

                    Fortunately Rome fell with out Jesus help. But the Roman religion ruled the world fora couple thousand years. Even Protestantism is just the Roman heresy altered a bit.

                    1. Live to Learn profile image82
                      Live to Learnposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

                      Lord have mercy. You've got a bs answer for everything.

                      1. jonnycomelately profile image81
                        jonnycomelatelyposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

                        So anything you don't want to believe, that might just possibly be fact, becomes bull dust?  Or you read into it your own interpretations, from your own perceptions, so it's fit for the compost heap ?   It's not unusual, I and many others do it too.  But I have a lot of respect for the other point of view, even when I don't know or understand it.

                        1. Live to Learn profile image82
                          Live to Learnposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

                          It could most certainly, possibly, be true. I have a problem with comments attempting to pretend they are completely true, especially comments which we all know are opinions not universally agreed upon facts. I would think, as a professed atheist, you would appreciate the desire to ensure the distinction between truth and opinion was clear.

                          But, your comment about ' respecting' the other point of view can be seen as a stretch, by many comments you've posted in this forum.

                          1. jonnycomelately profile image81
                            jonnycomelatelyposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

                            To say that Slarty O'Brian has a bs answer to everything is anything but respectful of any opinion, but especially the opinion of someone who seems to have done a lot of research.
                            I was respectful earlier on in this thread when you seemed to be contributing to good discussion and I said so.
                            So, what is driving your input now? Is it disdain for atheist opinion? Masculine opinion? 
                            Yes, I have my own opinions. They are not set in stone; I can and do change when reasonable argument is presented.
                            But you are not offering much respect as far as I can see.
                            Anyway, how do you decide upon the truth of historical data?  Or do you only accept what sounds nice?

                      2. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
                        Slarty O'Brianposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

                        Study history, then if you want to refute what said please do so based on facts you find there. I don't pull this stuff out my or a bull's ass. wink 

                        Have you read the bible? Part of what I said is from there. Part is from the Dead Sea Scrolls, (have you read them?) And part was from Roman and Jewish history.

                        I assure you, its all there for the knowing.

                        1. Live to Learn profile image82
                          Live to Learnposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

                          So, here is where you confuse me. You appear to agree that opinion should not be presented as fact, you then present opinion as fact, and then you make a comment which (by my estimation) condescendingly implies your opinion must be a fact since it represents conclusions you have arrived at by having access to the exact same information others do; who have come to different conclusions. Absolutely stellar job of self-validation but it doesn’t really cut it for proof that your conclusions are valid, or correct. You take too many things for granted, allowing your beliefs to close the book on something you aren’t in a position to pass off as fact.

                          Although I consider my comment to be fair and equitable, across the board of beliefs (atheism included) I will elaborate, since you have made a point of calling me out on it.

                          I like the fact that you said Jesus was a Jew. That tells me we can, at least, agree that this is a real historical figure we are discussing. But, you cannot definitively state what Jesus wanted for anyone, in particular. Certainly, there are comments in the Gospels which can be interpreted to believe Jesus had some disdain for non Jews; but there is ample evidence that Jesus held faith, from any quarter, in high esteem.

                          Remember the woman at the well? There was no Jewish law bandied about and used to bludgeon her emotionally. The Roman soldier is another example. So, your belief shaded your opinion on this one to such a point that you stated your opinion as a fact.

                          The fact that his apostles were Jewish is a silly point for you to use to make your case. It’s like saying Joseph Smith’s followers were Americans. He preached in a Jewish nation. In the ancient world, unless you set out for military conquest; of course your primary encounters were within your immediate vicinity. Did Socrates wander the world? Did the Buddha cross continents? Jesus was presenting ideas; ideas which were profound enough to spread themselves.  But, the Jewish community was quite isolated from the greater Roman Empire on several counts; by choice, by status as a second class subset of the empire and by geography. So on that point, again, you present your opinion as some epiphany of fact.

                          Your comments on James and Paul leave room for a raised eyebrow also. The brother of Jesus was not a follower. He isn’t mentioned until well after Jesus’s crucifixion. So, I would say if we are going to look for the original usurper James might be a prime suspect. He knew the man and apparently rejected the message. Paul didn’t know the man but embraced the message. James was a Jew apparently by birth. Probably did follow Jewish law and embraced all Jewish resentment of Rome; but didn’t embrace the faith enough to have been a rabbi or figure of leadership in that religion. Paul was a Jewish zealot who was also a Pharisee prior to conversion. His actions leave little doubt that conversion had to have been a singular event. The only claim to fame James has, that I can see, is that he was the brother of Jesus. Jesus did not set out to build a dynasty; passing it to nearest kin since he had no children, nor did he present himself as the conquerer the Jewish nation longed for.  For all of the complaints I can levy against Paul, his devout attempt to do the Lord’s work is not one of them.

                          To use James as an example of Paul’s transgressions is crazy. And, your claim that Paul’s version was palatable to Rome completely negates the trials Paul suffered during his ministry and the persecutions Christians suffered at the hands of Rome through 313 AD which was several hundred years after the death of Paul. Sounds to me as if the Roman powers were not finding anything related to Jesus palatable at all.


                          When Rome took over the religion he took Paul's version because it was palatable to Romans, where as the Palestinian version hated Rome. Jesus was supposed to save them from Rome.

                          Never did Jesus claim he wanted to save anyone from Rome. His words and his actions during his ministry are testament to that statement. His crucifixion, his rising from the dead, his actions after that and his ascension bear witness also. What the Jewish people hoped for and Jesus’ mission were completely at odds. The parable of the old wineskins is a perfect example to ponder when attempting to understand that a Jewish understanding of the ministry of Christ would be extremely hard. That cup was already full of history and tradition which had been built around it.

                          Then Rome did what it always did; it made Jesus a god. And then to  go with the one god idea, turned him into a trinity. Doing that was common in Rome. Then Constantine had every other version destroyed, and "heretics murdered. Hence why the scrolls had to be hidden. And hence why Rome blamed the Jews for his death, when he was actually murdered for being a threat to Rome.

                          I would say that Jesus’s resurrection and subsequent ascension; coupled with the miracles performed by the early church influenced the belief that Jesus was God much more than anything the Romans might have hoped to achieve. I realize the word trinity is fraught with confusion and does cause some consternation but it’s a solid explanation of the Oneness of the nature of God being omnipresent. When you start adding your belief in and making assumptions you can get confused.

                          If we have estimated that the Dead Sea scrolls were hidden in the first century and Constantine began his rule in 307 how do you come up with the claim that Constantine is responsible for the need to hide the scrolls? Again, your beliefs cloud your ability to form rational conclusions. I am not negating the importance of the find, itself. I am questioning your ability to understand the political climates of the times they were written and hidden. I am questioning your motives for your claims, since you also claim that your conclusion are fact based since you believe yourself to have some knowledge on the subject.

                          You can’t say the Romans blamed the Jews for Jesus’ death. Every party involved bore responsibility. The history of the Jewish people is a bit of an enigma to me, since they are the most persecuted group throughout recorded history. Humanity is always looking for a scapegoat. You, also, appear to be attempting to find one. In Rome.

                          So what you all believe is a  perversion of what the religion was supposed to be.

                          Thus says the preacher man, Slarty Obrian.

                          Fortunately Rome fell with out Jesus help. But the Roman religion ruled the world fora couple thousand years. Even Protestantism is just the Roman heresy altered a bit.

                          I love that you said this. I think I’ll just start viewing atheism as one of the fringe sects. Like Jehovah Witnesses and the like. Only they have ferreted out a secret truth. Only they know the answers.

                          Slarty, the past is shrouded in a translucent veil. We cannot come to definitive conclusions on a lot of things. We are too far removed to understand the mindsets of the individuals. We can read. We can ponder. But we cannot know for sure what anyone ultimately thought or believed. Best guesses are the best we can do. Believe nothing you read and only half of what you see is a good tenet to go by when attempting to formulate conclusions on any writings of those who claim to be writing for religious purposes; otherwise you run the risk of getting your hands soiled in a bull's ass.

                    2. dianetrotter profile image68
                      dianetrotterposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

                      Wow!  Does this information come from Dead Sea Scrolls?

                      1. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
                        Slarty O'Brianposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

                        Part of it, yes. But you can find the rift between the two versions in the bible as well. I can look up the text if you don't know it.

                        Paul was sure he had the latest word from Jesus himself, even though he never met him, but clearly James and the Palestinian church, as well as the writers of the scrolls disagreed.

                        They also never mention Jesus divinity or any of that. He was a man in their eyes. A very special man, of course. But to put him on par with god was an absolute heresy.

                        The Egyptians often melded two gods together: Amun and Ra become Amun Ra.  The Romans did it in threes. They had a lot of trinities before this one. No Jew would have dared thinking about Jesus in that way.

                        The church of Egypt were devout Jewish Christians, but didn't believe in the divinity of Jesus. For that, they and the original church were hunted down and murdered; their texts destroyed..

                        The whole divinity thing doesn't happen until Constantine 300 plus years after Jesus died.

                        1. dianetrotter profile image68
                          dianetrotterposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

                          I would love to get references to contradictions within the Bible.  It is true Paul was not with Jesus.  He actually persecuted and killed Christians until his experience on the Damascus road.

                          1. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
                            Slarty O'Brianposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

                            Ok, the best way to approach this is by saying that you'll get lots of opinions from different writers. Here's the major issue: Writing analysis puts the scrolls at 100 bce. If true they aren't even talking about Jesus, or these events happened 100 years earlier than we thought.

                            But not everyone agrees. Yes, writing of Jewish script changed but the stories match and its not necessarily that the Essen monks/ scribes were not still writing in the old style. Particularly if they were older men at the time, and because they were an isolated sect. 

                            Now, the other problem is this: They don’t mention real names. They mention  a lying priest and  the righteous one.  The righteous priest insisted on keeping all the laws. The lying priest said the laws weren’t important. 

                            This is explained three different ways: The good priest is Jesus, also known as the son of light. And the liar is Paul, or the liar is Jesus and the good priest was John the Baptist, or one of the  Maccabe brothers were the good guy and probably another was the bad one, depending on the time line you believe.

                            Jesus the bad guy? If Paul’s/ the Roman version is true then as you believe, the laws about food and many other things like not working on the Sabbath don’t count anymore. To a Jewish sect that was heresy. Particularly for this cult who  by some accounts hated the Romans.  Jesus telling people to love their enemies and turning the other cheek wouldn’t have gone over well either.

                            But this cults priests also swore vows of celibacy and poverty. They considered sex base and sinful if not specifically for procreation. Things other Jews  didn’t believe, but which early Christianity often did and some still do.

                            So, the rift between Paul and early original church should be familiar to most. James wrote several times that that Jesus taught that belief wasn’t enough. You need good works as well. Paul wrote that only faith was required. The Protestants still fight over that one. Works don’t just mean good works like charity, it also means following gods law/Jewish law.

                            So the second is traditional Jewish law. Jesus is said to have stated that not one bit of the law can be ignored.

                            Matthew 5:17-20 17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven,

                            Or the liar?

                            And Paul says it doesn’t count anymore.
                            Romans
                            The law reveals sin but cannot fix it. (Romans 3:20)
                            If the law worked then faith would be irrelevant. (Romans 4:14)
                            The law brings wrath upon those who follow it. (Romans 4:15)
                            The purpose of the law was to increase sin. (Romans 5:20)
                            Christians are not under the law. (Romans 6:14)
                            Christians have been delivered from the law. (Romans 7:1-6)
                            The law is good, perfect and holy but cannot help you be good, perfect or holy. (Romans 7:7-12)
                            The law which promises life only brings death through sin. (Romans 7:10)
                            The law makes you sinful beyond measure. (Romans 7:13)
                            The law is weak. (Romans 8:2-3)
                            1 Corinthians
                            The strength of sin is the law (1 Corinthians 15:56)
                            2 Corinthians
                            The law is a ministry of death. (2 Corinthians 3:7)
                            The law is a ministry of condemnation. (2 Corinthians 3:9)
                            The law has no glory at all in comparison with the New Covenant. (2 Corinthians 3:10)
                            The law is fading away. (2 Corinthians 3:11)
                            Anywhere the law is preached it produces a mind-hardening and a heart-hardening veil. (2 Corinthians 3:14-15)
                            Galatians
                            The law justifies nobody. (Galatians 2:16)
                            Christians are dead to the law. (Galatians 2:19)
                            The law frustrates grace. (Galatians 2:21)
                            To go back to the law after embracing faith is “stupid”. (Galatians 3:1)
                            The law curses all who practice it and fail to do it perfectly. (Galatians 3:10)
                            The law has nothing to do with faith. (Galatians 3:11-12)
                            The law was a curse that Christ redeemed us from. (Galatians 3:13)

                            Just to site a few. So it’s obvious there was a rift here.  They even meet a few times to discuss it.  Paul clearly had contempt for Jewish law.  When talking about the food we can eat Paul even says: “I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean,” Romans 14:14.  Hardly Jewish thinking, or even early Christian. 

                            First Jesus says not one bit of the law will be abolished until the end, but then tells Paul there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean?  I thought god decided and decreed what’s unclean, not us?

                            Now, Third rift, sort if: the reason Paul taught what he did was to capture a Roman audience. They didn’t want to be Jewish. James was fine with teaching gentiles, but they had to become Jewish Christians, meaning they had to follow all the laws.

                            This has led scholars to see Paul as the creator of Christianity. No one called themselves Christian at this time.  The stuff supposedly written by the other apostils probably weren’t, as the only texts we have were written 60 to 100 years after Jesus death.  But those may be based on texts we don’t have, meaning  they may or may not have been altered.

                            So again, some scholars think, like Paul’s teachings, that they were Romanized. 

                            The Jews and Romans had a long history of hating each other. The Romans invaded; the Jews kept rebelling. Rome loved other religions and gods. Where ever they went they accepted the local gods and even worshiped them. But what do you do with a god who tells his “chosen people” he’s the only god and all the rest are demons?   And the Jews hated them because they were Pagans, as well as yet another conqueror. 

                            The Jewish messiah was supposed to be a man who would lead them against the Romans and defeat them.  Some say since Jesus was seen by some Jews as their saviour he would have been more militant, like in the temple story where he throws out the money changers. And while Josephus doesn’t record the nice Jesus, he does tell us Jesus has an army. Couldn’t be the same guy, of course.  But it would have made sense from the Jewish perspective. 

                            The speculation goes farther. Jesus was gaining ground. Rome was being threatened. Pilot had him executed and later on as the religion grew in Rome the Jews were blamed.  That way they made the Jews the bad guy, hated by Christians for ever more.  Jesus becomes a man of peace and love and no hatred for Rome.  That way there’s no threat to Rome, and they stick another nail in their enemies coffin with their own religion.  All thanks to Paul.

                            Who knows for sure? No one.  But one thing for sure, Christian history is by no means cut and dried or transparent.

                        2. Jw Worcester profile image80
                          Jw Worcesterposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

                          Slarty - The trinity exists in scripture.  It starts with (Isaiah 59:16 NIV) He saw that there was no one, he was appalled that there was no one to intervene; so his own arm achieved salvation for him, and his own righteousness sustained him.

                          And there was no rift between James and Paul just as there was no rift between Paul and Peter.  Just as there was a rift between Paul and Barnabas - it's obvious they were on the same page when Paul took back Mark into his company who had been mentored by Barnabas.

                          James was the Elder of the church and as such was the glue for the leadership.  He was the one who validated the early church's outreach to the gentiles.  And he became a believer rather than a critic when the resurrected Jesus revealed Himself to James.

                          One thing that's missing in your understanding is the roll of the Holy Spirit who was the first to work with the church at Antioch.  One of the roles of the Holy Spirit is to bring conviction.  And in a Christian brotherhood of believers we will always need to love and admonish one another - because only God is perfect.

                          Jesus spoke of the Holy Spirit and the Trinity in (John 16:13-15 NIV) 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.".

                          1. dianetrotter profile image68
                            dianetrotterposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

                            Amen brother!

          2. Live to Learn profile image82
            Live to Learnposted 8 weeks ago

            No, to be honest, it wasn't a light-hearted dig. I was unkindly laughing at a statement because of your way of making it. It reminded me of the 'relationship with Christ' statements. It's a perfect example of judging. You are correct in that. Your word choice seemed rather silly but I suppose 'here and now' can be used synonymously with what I equate to 'being'.

            As a matter of fact; I'll also add that I probably misunderstood when you took umbrage to my comment that the individual must relegate their 'truth' to belief when discussing it; if it is not demonstrably true.  But that is an example of my poor word choices when I made the comment. Although, at first reading, it appeared to me that you were stating that you were not obligated to accept that another person has a belief; you apparently think I was implying you had to accept the belief of another as truth. But, all in all, you were basically saying the same thing I have been. That each person has their beliefs and we must accept that their beliefs work for them. With the one caveat that you insist I am including as a 'but'.

            I have not added a 'but'. I don't care what you believe as long as your beliefs do not put an unfair burden on the happiness of others. I see your individual stance as putting an unfair burden on me; caused by your preconceived notions.

            Here's my preconceived notion. I'm assuming you reached out to religion at one point in your life and it failed to answer the questions you had, it couldn't fill the need you experienced.

            I can't relate to that. I don't think I've ever reached out to religion for anything. I've listened to any who wanted to present their particular sect's take on the subject. I've listened to those who reach out to the community to present Islam. I've looked at the effect Buddhism has had on those who self-profess to follow it. But, I was raised with religion as being a block you check off to show yourself to be a solid citizen. The only rules laid down for us were that we were expected to attend church and, follow the commandments as they were pertinent to children but we didn't go all Old Testament on our lives. I suppose, because that was who our parents were, or who my Dad was. My mom was exceptionally led by her belief in hell but she held it in check as best she could; to give us the room to grow and come to our own conclusions. My father was exceptionally committed to his financial obligation to the institution and was still tithing 10% decades after he stopped attending.

            We were strong, of above average intelligence, and it was drilled into our heads (and our backsides) to accept responsibility for our own actions. There was no blame game allowed. So, I do find myself to be biased against those who lash out at others; as if the belief of a third party is somehow  responsible for their behavior patterns and magically guiding the actions of another who makes a general statement of belief. I admit, I cannot attempt to mentally walk in your shoes for any length of time in any attempt to understand your mindset; without finding myself slightly perturbed at the thought of your beliefs.

          3. jonnycomelately profile image81
            jonnycomelatelyposted 7 weeks ago

            L-to-L, throughout this latest post you have presented your own opinions as fact.  It is a human phenomenon that we can be shown a set of facts yet come to different conclusions, based upon our desired perceptions.  Do you think you differ in this respect?


            And when you sit before a mirror? .....


            This is false logic:  Even if it can be agreed Jesus would have been a Jew, it does not prove that he was a "real historical figure."  You can make a presumption but that does not make it a fact.


            One would draw that conclusion if one was reading the New Testament as a Christian and wanting to see the "evidence."  Someone without that desire might draw a different conclusion.  You still don't have factual evidence.


            Do you know this for a fact?  And I thought the purpose of this story was to demonstrate the human tendency to love throwing rocks/accusations at someone else in order to deflect attention from one's own shortcomings.  Has this tendency changed in 2000+ years?


            You repeatedly use this tactic yourself.


            Do you know this for certain?  If Jesus was a real historical figure, and if he was a rabbi, it is my understanding that a rabbi of those times would have almost certainly had a wife. But then, modern Christianity would hate to think Jesus would have had anything to do with sex.....


            You speak of his rising from the dead and ascension as facts.  They can only be represented from the basis of belief, not fact....unless you want to depart from the basic nature of this physical world....


            Right at the beginning of this post you said, "So, here is where you confuse me."
            Thus you have hinted at the basis for your confusion.  It's in your own mind, surely?  Are you not coming from a life time of being a Christian, needing to let go of much that you have learned to accept as "true," yet hanging on for dear life to those precepts?


            Not an uncommon trick in any argument.  When the logical consideration of the opponent seems to be winning, throw a remark that is intended to belittle the opponent, get away from the logical into the personal.


            How very, very true!  I hope you have cleaned the condensate from that mirror.  Step back a little, you get a clearer picture.

            Have you made any New Year's resolutions yet?   I some times do, but very quickly drop back into the convenience of routine, like writing replies to HP at 3.30am!

            Have a good one.

            1. Live to Learn profile image82
              Live to Learnposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

              I'd add a roll eyes but I'm on a phone and I don't get that option. The only fact I've presented (that I am aware of) is that he can't claim fact, not by his stated reasoning.

              1. jonnycomelately profile image81
                jonnycomelatelyposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

                roll

                1. Live to Learn profile image82
                  Live to Learnposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

                  if you're on a phone, good job. I don't get the option to add those. I'm too lazy to type it all out.

                  1. jonnycomelately profile image81
                    jonnycomelatelyposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

                    My old laptop on this occasion, very useful in the formatting which one can't do with a smart phone.
                    Now, you referred to Slarty as a "preacher." Hardly.  But here we are joined by Jw Worcester...now there's a preacher for you, with only ever one point of view, always presuming that there really is only one way to consider the bible, interpreted by the holy spirit working in your mind to exclusion of any other possible way of thinking.
                    Don't even bother to argue because he's got gard on his side.
                    roll

                    1. Live to Learn profile image82
                      Live to Learnposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

                      I'll agree with you on what I've seen of Jw Worcester, which is encompassed in this thread. Does seem to have one point of view, always presuming that there is really only one way to consider the Bible. I'd say he and Slarty might be twin sons of different mothers.

                      1. jonnycomelately profile image81
                        jonnycomelatelyposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

                        Poles apart: Slarty (like myself) defensive against the control-mongering threat of eternal turmoil after his death; chooses to think for himself.
                        Jw, offensive, has allowed his mind to be taken over by those with ulterior motives, who claim to have his eternal welfare at heart yet, in reality, find him a convenient and useful ally in their desire for control.
                        Total opposites.
                        And do you know what normally happens when dictators and autocratic regimes take over?  "They" exterminate those with independent minds who have the audacity to speak the truth.
                        If Jesus really was real, he would have suffered such a fate and for the same reason.

                        1. Live to Learn profile image82
                          Live to Learnposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

                          I, like you, am suspicious of cosmic philosophies that end up killing those who disagree. It hasn't been monotheistic religions, in our lifetime, that has done that to millions upon millions.

                          Jw, offensive to you because you disagree. Slarty, not offensive to you, because you agree. It's not anything other than your personal bias taking precedent over dispassionate review of the comments.

                          1. jonnycomelately profile image81
                            jonnycomelatelyposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

                            Not at all.  It is not a matter of me disagreeing with their message.  We are all free to agree/disagree.
                            Just yesterday evening I was greeted by three gentlemen of Islam.  We had a very respectful discussion, on the street, in which I put my opinion gently but politely.  Under their politeness was very obviously the intention to get me accepting their teachings.  No different from JWs. 
                            It is the presumption of their faith being superior in authenticity to my lack of faith which I find offensive.
                            The same frame of mind. 
                            If I have no desire to "convert" them to atheism (which I have not), why must they try to convert me?
                            For sure, I can open my mind to what they are saying, no problem....except if I do they are likely to see that as my weakness and try harder to convert.
                            Give me an open mind, willing to enquire, assess new information, employ good logic and sensible ideas....give me that any day over the closed minds of religion.

                            By the way, it is Sunday morning.  I need to get mowing long grass in preparation for the bushfire season.  Yet I wait until after noon  so the noise does not disturb the people in church.  Is that not respectful?  Meanwhile there is time for HP replies.

                        2. dianetrotter profile image68
                          dianetrotterposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

                          Jesus did speak truth and suffered and died for it.  It was prophesied in the OT and attested to by the Dead Sea Scrolls.

                          1. Slarty O'Brian profile image83
                            Slarty O'Brianposted 7 weeks agoin reply to this

                            A messiah was prophesier, yes. All over the place. But your assuming it was Jesus. He clearly wasn't the one prophesied.  He didn't defeat the Romans. German barbarians did that several hundred years later.