Someone told me today about someone speaking in tongues in their church on Sunday. I'm rather dubious of this. Are there any Christians here who have seen this? What's it all about?
I always assumed 'tongues' referred to when the apostles spoke other languages. I know there is a point in the gospels where it is mentioned in a different way, but I also know that portion can't be proven to belong in that book.
This idea of someone muttering while someone else interprets seems bizarre.
If you've seen it, how do you determine you believe it is real, and isn't simply someone looking for attention?
Whoa. I have to say that I have seen it. It was years ago, back in the late 80's. I went with my then boyfriend's family to this service where everyone was going to see this preacher, and this started happening, probably three or more, both sides of the aisle, and I was both angry and frightened, I was upset, I cried and shook. I remember distinctly, even wrote a college paper after that on apostolic religions. I think they were faking, and that made me angry, I have no idea why it made me cry, why it upset me so, but it did, I was pretty young at the time.
I made a point ever after to avoid those types of churches. I think these extreme apostolic churches are the root cause of much anti-religious thinking. I do believe the leaders of these churches are trying to harness their members and visitors, and their money of course, who are vulnerable and who need something awesome to witness and believe in.
As I recall, speaking in tongues should not actually occur unless their is someone who can interpret them, and by now I would say the charlatans have likely perfected that by now, but not that Sunday when I experienced this, or maybe I just ran out to soon, that I don't recall.
Yes, it sounds like a scam to me. I was just hoping maybe someone could give me a take on it. I just cant imagine anyone believing. The woman who was telling me about it was doing everything she could not to roll her eyes at the memory.
Oh, for sure, most of those in that church seemed to 'believe', scam or not. Many of the others were howling and fainting and falling to their knees, no doubt that also contributed to my fright, although I suppose I really can't fully explain that, except I was young and had fairly recently lost my father. But, I was then, and am now, a pretty tough woman, but I couldn't handle it. Unforgettable experience.
All too often, we fear what we don't understand, and this is the mistake made with tongues. Yes, it is real, and yes, it is valid Biblically. I was also confronted with the presentation of "glossilalia" which is the term in Biblical Greek, when young.
Yes, I was scared to death and steered wide around such assemblies for years. Then 28 years ago, I was in a service and deep in the presence of God. Suddenly, I could not control my words in prayer, and realized I was praying in tongues. It was the most peaceful transition into God's presence I had ever felt, and still do speak in tongues.
I hope you will approach this with an open mind. Yes, the gifts of God have been abused, but so also, have the things of man. I will do a hub on the issue, if you like, and give the Biblical basis for the continuation of the gift.
I no longer believe, but can still speak in tongues
Ok, but please make sure there's an interpreter present first, before you demonstrate. I want to know what it is you're saying. In case, it's something important.
Thanks for posting. I've always believed atheists were on a level playing field with believers; as far as the spiritual realm is concerned. Living proof. That's what you are.
there have been studies done on 'tongues' and it is learnt. People use sounds from their own language. It's nothing more than trance-like babbling
That, I would believe. I'm curious as to what the ones who don't see it that way think. When my son was very young, during growth spurts, he had night terrors. I swear, he'd be going on about something, in what appeared to be another language before we could wake him up. It was unnerving at times. I can see how something like that could be seen in a different light. So, a part of me wonders if sometimes this tongues thing isn't a variation on whatever he was going through, just someone that appears to be awake.
apparently brain scans on those doing it show they are in a trance-like state - it's just babbling while 'right' brain engaged
some might speculate your son needed 'deliverance' (exorcism) - goes hand & hand with the speaking & tongues
Yes, I'm with you on that. This thread was a mistake. I'd probably need to talk to someone face to face, to get a better read on where they were coming from. Some of these responses are difficult to understand.
this hub might offer some insights:
http://hubpages.com/hub/Speaking-in-Ton … ecostalism
so, have you met any people that understand this "speaking in tongues"? Or this is really just a senseless noise?
W. Joe, You have made a great point. The gifts of God is indeed peaceful when not abused.
Amen W.Joe B. I find speaking in tongues comforting and I let the Holy Spirit completely take over, too many people want to see before they believe... we walk by faith and not by sight.. praying in the Spirit brings one right into Gods presence....
From what I have learned over the years, there are two forms of speaking in tongues.
When the Apostles received the Holy Spirit, they began speaking to the people in tongues, and each person listening, was able to hear and understand in their own language tongue whatever the apostles were saying.
There is also a form of speaking in tongues received from the Holy Spirit, whereby a person will speak in the tongues of angels only to be understood by few people on earth, but totally understood by the angels of God.
The times I've heard it, it quenched the fire of the Spirit in me. For one thing, it's usually not interpreted correctly as the Bible says it should be. So no I don't believe it was legitimate. Not saying it can't be. But like you referred to it, it was meant to reach people of other languages, rather like language interpreters can do these days in many instances. It equipped the disciples with a talent for that purpose, to sorta jump-start the great commission.
There's also a "prayer language" that's unintelligible to others. I've got nothing to say against that when it's used properly.
So, if it's unintelligible, what do you think the point of it would be? To be honest, the whole idea makes me uncomfortable. It sounds kind of evil.
The Bible says the Holy Spirit makes intercession for us when we're in need of it and can't find the words to express...
I don't find it evil at the core concept of it, because it is indeed in the Bible! Just mis-used often as we're discussing.
The point a lot of times is to be seen as "Spiritual" and with power. So, yes, it ends up being just....wrong, especially because it can disrupt a service by focusing on that person instead of on Christ.
...I've seen people supposedly prophesy in tongues on a regular basis, but the Pastor was the only person who "interpreted". And actually, the Bible says whoever speaks in tongues should pray that THEY interpret. So, in a church full of Christians, I think if there's only one person who ever interprets, then, yes, it's only a floor show, because that many Christians have a whole lotta Spirit amongst them and would be able to exhibit it if it was real.
...The people I've spoken to in the Apostolic churches and Pentecostal ones, have the idea in general that if a person doesn't speak in tongues, then they aren't filled with the Spirit, and perhaps not even saved at all. And that's a load of ....well, ya know.
Thanks for your thoughts. It isn't something I've ever put much thought into. The woman who said it broadsided me with the comment. I had honestly believed it was a myth Hollywood enjoyed perpetuating.
When, the Spirit is upon us we are pure spirit, and the body no longer controls us our awareness. it is pure spirit at work. so naturally the words that come out of our tongue will not be human words but words of the divine, unintelligible to others but understood by the spirit.
It's only when I substitute the word 'spirit' for the word 'nonsense' does your post then make sense.
you are not in on it. i was demonstrating how you can say one thing in two ways, using metaphoric and plain language. Unlike you, I know the difference.
You know the difference between spirit and nonsense? Do tell?
Gravity is an invisible force, kinda like that? Any evidence of this so-called force?
Yes, it if often discounted by believers, reality, that is.
yes, he really does not get it.
you want evidence...blow a feather into the air. you see the force? you can't... maybe this will help, go to the kitchen, get a metal fork and stick in into the socket. Did you see the force go from the socket to your arm? no...but you felt it, right?
ceciliabeltran, That's a good one! I was crying laughing. I really hope he don't do that.
So, these forces are the spirits you speak of?
this is generally what is meant by Spirit. now spirit of G-d is another thing. but then you could go on and on stabbing your own shadow. Talk to Brenda, you'll be perfect for each other!
Is that a definition you made up?
Yes, especially when you never explain yourself without the use of magic, fractals or Jung.
no, that is how the Rabbinical Jews define it. Alef=1=spirit/breath/ox-power/strength.
you can't grasp the difference between symbolic language and plain language, you expect to delve into the judeo-christian view of cosmology?
i really sincerely doubt you're as thick as you appear to be. As your other identity you can be quite intelligent.
No idea what you're talking about, but it is interesting that you prefer to focus on the individual rather than the subject matter.
oh let me focus on rubbish...that's an excellent argument. Why do you say that? really?
Again, is there some reason you continue to focus on the individual instead of the subject matter? Do I need to report you to the admins? Please go away and annoy someone else. Thanks.
you're the one pestering me Beelzedad. I am merely showing you how you pester me in different personas with the same lame 1950s arguments and then pretend to read from journals you cannot cite about things you obviously only heard from me for the first time.
Myself and others are merely trying to correct your false information and fallacies you constantly present.
I really don't care if you wish to lie about such things as anyone who reads the same articles or journal can easily see for themselves. The links were there, you didn't read them just like you never read any links provided, whether we provide them or you do.
anyone can demonstrate that about air and electricity. Not so with god
Let me guess:
Spirit is zero and your cat is an elephant. That proves everything is wrong.
no, spirit is 1, and to beelzedad, the cat and the elephant are all random selections of evolution. they are happy accidents. and that proves you are wrong, not everything...just you.
Right. I agree. That's the prayer language between the person and God.
But that's not the scenario of the usual "speaking in tongues" which was meant to allow a person of another nationality/speech to understand the Gospel in their own language.
...I didn't say speaking in tongues is invalid or wrong. I just say it's usually unnecessary and sometimes chaotic when it's faked, and its usage often creates a source of pride by the user....
As far as the Spirit.....I've seen people filled with the Holy Spirit who would dance, shout, fall to their knees or to the ground, run, laugh, cry, etc. People I knew were not faking it! I've done some of those. The day I became born again, it was like my feet went to the altar without my bidding and effort; there was a Presence so compelling and forgiving that it's indescribable. I suppose people could stir themselves into a frenzy at the presence of an unGodly force, or a benign force too......Heck, they often do at football games, etc. ! LOL
So there's nothing shameful about being led or used by the Holy Spirit. As far as being "pure Spirit"......I think that's impossible as long as we're alive on this earth. We can exhibit the effects of the Spirit, and we can bask in the presence of the Spirit; but only in the afterlife will we be pure spirit.....and in the presence of THE pure Spirit if we go to heaven....
well heaven exists on earth, we just have to be aware of its presence overlapping our own mundane reality.
Oh. Tell me where to find this "heaven on earth" then?
Is it kinda like Sylvia Browne saying heaven is ..."about ..here.." as she motions toward the air about 4 feet off the ground...?
It is in between you and your relationship with G-d. You bring heaven down to earth, you embody it.
(but wait silvia brown said 4 feet above ground? really? I'm not familiar with her work)
She's a "psychic". I probably assumed your sentence was related to something similar. I know Christians have Jesus in their hearts; we "embody" God in that way. But Heaven? I don't think so; at least not in literal terms at all! There is a special place reserved for all Christians, and I'm not believing that place is here on earth at all!
4 feet off the ground.....
It actually IS a bit easier to "reach Heaven" symbolically when we're about 4 feet off the ground, because that would be about how tall we are if we're on our knees at the feet of Christ!
But indeed that's not what Sylvia Browne meant. Charlatans sometimes speak in strange tongue! LOL
*stifling a laugh* This place for Christians is exactly where? What if you're a good samaritan? Or a Jew? Like Jesus? Do the non-christians go to another heaven? Just curious.
Seriously Brenda, you don't read John? You're not one of those Christians who actually never read the bible.
Haven't you even picked up on the definition of "a Christian" yet?
A true Christian is simply a follower of Christ. At any point in time, if a Jew or a Samaritan or a Greek or an African or a Catholic or a Baptist or a whoever becomes born-again, they WILL become a Christian. The road ends there. It's that simple.
err, humans ARE H-E...
It was initially expressed in the 2nd of Realities.
it was later exemplified post resurrection...
we can go on and on swatting flies. but there will be more until we change location to a less swampy area.
Am considering a workshop on it... Thoughts?
"workshop" meaning no old burgers and pesky flies, err fries.
Hey, you two were fascinating me. I've always believed the two worlds intertwined, to some extent.
yeah, we could always go talk somewhere else where an actual conversation will take place. But it is sometimes fun to see the extent of patience you will have to explain what should be obvious and considered known.
Considered obvious. I thought I knew the definition of that term before I started reading these forums. There a definitely a lot of people with rigid ideas of reality; but, apparently, they think the same of me.
You and twenty one days always fascinate me, though. Love to read your posts.
likewise curious. I especially like the cats. and the impressive dodgy sarcasm.
Considering reality is quite rigid, what else would you expect?
reality is rigid...yep. you're definitely him.
Aw, you're just jealous your topic of discussion isn't as interesting as hers. Maybe, one day, you and I will both get it right.
If nonsense is what interests you, fill your boots with her discussions, then.
Truth interests me. I think everyone may have a piece of it.
~Since almost none of the bible is true(just based on myths and legends) maybe truth REALLY doesn't interest you that much.
Hey, you're slow on the uptake again. Beelzedad already zinged me with that one. Do try to keep up.
But how many people has to tell an individual that they look drunk, before the individual goes home and lies down?
oh my gosh. You're not that guy standing in the horse pasture with the binoculars are you? It's a glass of tea, I swear. I just like to drink it in shot glasses. Sue me.
Consider the mechanics. The realm of God is light and understanding and not mystery and bewilderment. Tongues takes many forms. The ability to learn and speak other foreign languages is a gift. The ability to sit and listen is a gift of tongues. To extend counsel to someone with just the right words is a gift. Conjuring sounds that are incomprehensible to others is not of God and is built upon a frenzy created by adverse spirits.
Keep in mind that the adversary also has powers to mimic that which is good though it is not.
In the future just consider the outcome of these instances. Do they help people help themselves or give them understanding into their own lives as God would have it, or does it live "in the moment" of dancing and frenzy without responsibility or positive affect on lives.
That's a vey interesting take on it. I doubt I will ever see it, but it's a good thing to bring up if the subject ever comes up again.
If one considers my take on the subject then you see it every day. If one buys into the frenzy as some overriding governing power from above then probably not.
NOTE: Say you have a child in deep distress. After dealing with it for months as a parent you stepped back and approached the situation differently. You sat, you listened and assured him or her that they are not alone. You counseled them that you are there to support and help them. You tell me. Would this not qualify as a gift in tongues? Language takes many forms.
Instead of identifying this gift and all others as something for the dancing chapels look at the gift a different way. Notice it in the simple things we see every day. Effective teachers in the classroom struggling to improve their teaching abilities to affect the lives of students. Doctors delicately informing a patient that they have cancer. A father reading a bedtime story.
When one sees in such a way peace enters the heart.
You're a very good person. Thanks for sharing that.
You've hit the point in a reasonable, practical, common-sense way, and even (if I might be so bold as to say) a Spiritual way if the speaker is a Christian..)
Because when we become born again, we speak with "new tongues" anyway, in effect; we become a "new creature" in Christ, focusing on the things of God.
1 Corinthians 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1 Corinthians 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
My answer to you is that what you have talked about in no way approaches the gift of tongues. word of knowledge and wisdom perhaps but you are way off in another part of some distant arena again
Neither here nor there, but it is interesting to note that the early mormons spoke in tongues.
This same question generated a quite chaotic funny thread some months ago.
When these kind of threads had some fun...
First off Speaking in toungues do not belong to those who believe they've got it.. That is the christian church as a whole.
Now speaking in tongues is the origin of all languages.
And a languages is that which mediates understanding and ignorance...
Where there is understanding, tongues/language is unneccessary....
Where there is ignorance, tongues/languages should not even be present.
So in the purity of each state tongues should not even be...
Nevertheless to convey understanding from one to the other tongues has become necessary.
So we see that the basis for tongues resides with the one with understanding an not the one in ignorance.
And if one must speak in tongues he must speak in a language that the other should understand..
And if he already possesses the understanding then the language/tongues is unnecessary so there is no need to speak to himself...
A man should not think to speak in tongues unless he is among those of a foreign language and in his speaking, in his mind he must have a specific understanding that he needs to convey...
And not from ignorance to ignorance as in not know what to say to not knowing what you say...
The enemy of man who is ignorance has made himself strong in this world by the use of knowledge...but by the false of it... which is still ignorance.
You need not leave hubpages to know this as true.
I want to say not that I am positive but Pentecostal teachings are the ones that speak in tongue. NO I have never heard anyone either but I know that it would make me uneasy at first.
lnhsys junhy bhygghki lokju nh jugty los mlhnhyb,kiuytbg nuhgy hyatr?
juhsyt enhusljg nshyt slpppjm! :
Hey qwark. I didn't get that. Does that mean I'm not spiritual or something?
Oh I've seen this, it seems like memes, mostly. They go on these deep meditation and collapse and they start warbling sounds from their mouths. I think they go on alpha states and because of the repetitive praying, they start to lose consciousness of how the words are coming out...hence speaking in tongues. They would normally control the warbling but since everyone is doing it, they allow themselves to behave this way.
The fact that an interpreter was required, likely -very likely-- points to human languages.
As also noted in the text, "spiritual tongues or groaning" are not at all understood.
My experience with Pentecostal (including assemblies of god) folk was in all points just babble, with no relevance.
The entire purpose of tongues was to be able to communicate without language restriction for both the speaker and the hearer. The purpose of the interpreter was for the "third party" or others who could not understand the language being spoken (example: A Roman speaking Greek in Asia to a group of mixed persons).
And was also supposed to be for revealing things and edification.
i saw this at the school i went to. It was a penocostal (sp?) school, and when we had chappel, usually someone would do it, and someone would always do it in the church. No one ever interpreted anything for them, though. I was always wondering, why would god give someone that gift, no one can understand them?
A pentecostal school? You have my sympathies. I was married to a guy who went to a catholic school. Parochial schools sound like hell on earth to me.
The tongues thing though, sounds like you've got the same take on it I would have if I saw it.
"I was always wondering, why would god give someone that gift, no one can understand them?"
Indeed. I was under the understanding that the gift of tongues was so that the speaker wouldn't need a translator when talking to people who didn't speak their own language. Pretty cool miracle, if you ask me.
But the "speaking in tongues" we hear about today isn't so much someone who doesn't speak, say, French, or Greek, or Arabic, for example, suddenly be able to speak French or Greek or Arabic when they need to talk about God to someone who only speaks French or Greek or Arabic. It's someone who (generally) speaks only English, surrounded by other people who are perfectly capable of speaking and understanding English, and the speaker starts making noises that sound like gibberish to the rest of the assembled English-speakers, so that the speaker needs a translator to talk to other speakers of his own native language.
That's kind of the opposite of the Miracle of Pentecost, isn't it?
Speaking in Tongues is considered a way of connecting with the spirit of God. It isn't a scam, an exhibition or voodoo. It's just another personal way of speaking to God, which some people have and others don't. Just like some people have the gift of prophecy or healing in the church, some have the gift of tongues.
In my experience, it brings comfort and a deeper spiritual connection to God. I've never met someone who could interpret it, but in the Bible it says that interpretation is also a gift. I'd love to meet someone who has it!
It's not something to be afraid of, but I do understand it is unsettling if you've never experienced it yourself. It's not something that is 'natural'. Then again, what is?
From what i understood about speaking in tongues in the apostolic days, people were able to benefit from them by understanding the actual words spoken clearly. Shouldn't the purpose of gift of tongues today be the same as that?
(somebody who said to me he was given the gift of tongue reasoned that he also benefits from it even without understanding..) I didn't really understand how that's possible.
Anyways, when I asked for any biblical support on that kind of reasoning, he simply said... "you won't really believe until you put faith in it."
Well, i won't believe until i get proof.
I have seen it my entire life
It is definitely real. My mom has spoken in 3 different languages of tongues.
She only knows English.
It is a strange, and fascinating concept, but very real
When I was in med school, one of our pre-residency program requirements was to attend a field trip to an Insane Asylum.
Almost all patients were speaking in tongues. This is perfectly normal for these types of folks
Perhaps there is an asylum near that church and an escapee decided to blend in with the congregation.
when i went to a med school it sounded like most of the people there spoke some strange tongue.
Perhaps med school people are really insane or does it just seem that way after they get out and start writing in tongues on prescriptions
I hate it when people start talking in tongues during the service.
It makes it so hard to pass the snakes around.
Yes, I could see how that would be a distraction; yet perhaps, in your congregation's case the message is truly from a higher realm. It could be someone is trying to tell you passing snakes around is crazy.
passing snakes around is unscriptural
I know this. I was trying to be polite. I believe the guy was joking. I hope anyway.
i know you know
It comes from this verse
Mark 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
course one can never make a conclusion from just one scripture. Context is needed. This is a promise of protection not a command to tempt God
Well, hopefully that type of behavior has shrunk to the point of only being practiced by isolated mountain people. I've never heard of it still being practiced today.
I personally believe the short ending to Mark is the only reliable one. It is, of course, just an opinion; so I wouldn't push it too hard with someone that believed otherwise.
Speaking in tongues was common in the church I attended growing up. I truly believed that we were speaking a sacred language that only God could decipher.
Now I know that speaking in tongues is nothing more than a severe psychotic episode. In other words, it's insanity.
Seriously. Not everyone that does this could be insane. I don't, personally, believe it. And it would seem to be impossible to me to determine if it was possession by friend or foe. I'm just curious why anyone would automatically assume this was a good thing when they see it happen.
I think I have a very good idea what your response will be, But please wait a day our two before you say it. I am curious about how people in this modern world could follow such an odd, in my I opinion, belief. I don't want you to scare them off.
Now you know what I think of your beliefs. How odd is that?
. I'm not sure what it is we're laughing at. But as long as we're laughing at me I can go along with it.
I do find this a bizarre topic. I doubt you and I would disagree on this one. Everything else? I guess we'll find out sooner or later.
It is bizarre - I agree. But - no more bizarre than eating the flesh of Christ or claiming to follow some one whom it is highly unlikely even existed.
All I was saying is - this is how us thinking people view your beliefs.
You claim to be looking for insights as to how atheists think - this is one for you to ponder. As bizarre as you find this belief and practice - that is how bizarre we see your beliefs.
At least the talking in tongues and snake handling is biblically accurate. Not sure the same can be said for your beliefs.
Ok. I see where you're coming from. I think the flesh of Christ thing is more catholic though. I always assumed it was done in memory of him, not a cannabalistic ritual.
And I do see the inability to prove, beyond all shadow of a doubt, the existence of Christ as a stumbling block for some. But I don't know how to reconcile that. You can't know either way for sure and there is compelling evidence, in my mind, that the account is accurate. I'd be very interested in proof, either way.
But, the only place I remember this tongues think or passing snakes is mentioned is, I believe, at the end of Mathew, or maybe it was Mark. What I've read is that may have been added at a later date.
It is a Catholic thing - they believe the wafer is transformed into actual flesh. Some Protestant cults do communion as well - I can't remember whether they believe it is symbolic or actual. Probably the cause of hundreds of thousands of murders during a war over which is correct.
There is no compelling evidence at all - if there were, we would not even be discussing it. There certainly are no contemporary references to this person you claim to be following and - as far as I am concerned - any who follow as you do have completely misunderstood the message. "In your mind" is appropriate though.
I wasn't particularly interested in your justifications either - just explaining why us thinkers feel the same way about your beliefs as you feel about other people's. I feel sure the snake handlers and tongue talkers will offer exactly the same justification as you have just done.
Hey, I thought you were ignostoc now. What is it with atheists? Nice one day, horribly serious and difficult the next? Yours is a moody mindset. I'm trying to keep up, but it is very difficult.
Aww. You say a belief is bizarre, yet when I explain the yours are the same I am being horribly serious and difficult. OK then. Guess you did not really want to find out how atheists think after all.
I am an ignostic. I still find your beliefs bizzaro.
Hey, I don't mind that you consider some of my beliefs bizarre. Obviously I do too, since they are somewhat fluid still. I just think lines in the sand are strange.
No you don't - you have drawn plenty of lines in the sand. What you mean is - you think lines in the sand that are different to yours are strange.
Hey, other than God and Jesus what lines do you think I'm drawing? I would like to know. I'm not arguing, just curious where you think I'm off base. I'm always open to the idea that I've gotten something wrong.
With the exception of the one big thing you have wrong, of course.
To those people you will always have something wrong and the wrong that was done hundreds of years ago will always be present with them as an alarming piece of evidence albeit captured in history and a thousand years down the road who will believe that either.
Atheists always twist things to suit their own (dis)pleasure. They wish they could believe, but they have failed once and not willing to try it again. Hubpages has become like a mantra to them. The more often a lie is told the more it becomes truth.
As they go about trying to persuade themselves and ignoring and insulting and twisting christian truths they are only trying to flash their egos and brainwash themselves.
So pick and choose your battles. Some will in no case whatsoever be inclined to agree and all good solid points (even to prove a bible contradiction doesn't contradict) - they will just move on to another thread or post and ignore it or not care. All good solid points will be mooted.
Limited man cannot understand the unlimited and neither can they for it is beyond their comprehension
Wow! Nice attack cousin. Not that Christianity causes conflict or anything.
This is the behavior that caused wars in years gone by. Fortunately - we have pulled your teeth and all you can do is lash away verbally.
I would love to believe the nonsense you believe. I cannot turn my brain to mush though. Nor can I ignore the obvious aggression and cognitive dissonance people such as yourself display. Nor can I pretend the past did not happen. Not sure if that is good or bad. Depends how I am feeling on the day.
I think you are mistaking "good solid points" for "irrational nonsense."
truth is truth.
Turning your brain to mush is probably way easier that you want people to think. The way you go on about the past you should easily be able to be another ghandi. You wave tools around without actually knowing how to use them. It doesnt matter what catholicism did in the past, christians know how evil that religious system is. Christ talked about sheep in wolves clothing, so big deal, it happened, put it in proper persepective. (how many land barons killed for land, or bankers started wars to manipulate the banking system (WW2) how many politicians were killed because they backed a different belief than the ruling powers. How many rock stars were assassinated to stop that movement. Certainly this limited thinking of blaming others for past atrocities is evidence of a mushy brain, incognizance and irrational finger pointing.
The most important point is what you are doing inspite of what others have done. Do the events of yesteryear cause you to stumble? Get over it. You can't use this as a shield or some sort of salvation loop hole.
All this constant whining about the past is really mushy stuff. We christians have it in proper perspective, like we do a lot of things many cannot fathom. It would do many people good to just listen and absorb instead of quickly saying "oh but the catholics did and do many wrongs". I am deeply sorry you fell for that insidious religious movement and also ask you to get over that because of its many wrongs. But if you fail to listen you will stumble over the same obstacles. What did a philosopher say once, " if your not moving forward you are going backward".
I wish you well, but, i will still speak the truths of God and if that rubs you the wrong way, so be it.
enjoy the christian forums and i hope as you slide gracefully backward you do not have too bumpy a ride.
Did you mean to hit reply to me on this? It looks like you were responding to Mark's post.
No - I understand how easy it is. Look at how many religious people there are. I simply cannot do it.
I prefer to learn from it thanks.
You certainly have denial down pat - I will give you that.
No - you do not wish me well. Spreading your religion and claiming abilities beyond my ken is your goal.
You state quite clearly you do not care if you rub me the wrong way. See how this always causes conflicts? If you did not deny history - you would understand and learn instead of repeating the same old mistake over and over and over.
Hey, I didn't notice you called my beliefs bizarre. My only response to that is
I was completely lucid when I laughed above. I think some of the atheist ideas are crazy too. Which is why I laugh at them sometimes.
Hmm. Not believing in an Invisible Super Being is the only atheist idea I am aware of. How funny that you laugh at them. Perhaps you could list 20 more which I have never heard of?
Twenty? Ok. Let me think. I've only got two or three that come to the top of my mind. I'll answer that this evening after I've put some thought into it, but definitely number one on the list is that they take themselves way too seriously. I have never met a minidset more in the need to lighten up. You could work on that in the interim.
Hey Mark. I've got ten. I think twenty was a bit excessive, seeing as how I just found out you guys really existed about a month ago. But, I've been so less than Christian, on about every conversation I've had with you guys, I'll keep them to myself for a while. I've felt the wrath of the hornet's nest too recently. Maybe later, when it calms down a little. I like the new you too much.
We'd just LOVE to know what "atheist ideas" tickle your funny bone.
Let's see: could it be the one about not believing impossible beings exist? Oh, yeah, that's a corker!
Or some of the other "atheist ideas" like.. like..
Gosh, I can't think of any more "atheist ideas".
yes pcunix, exactly. That's why your belief is so flat and unbelievable. It is why that mind set will only be held by a small percentage. You can't think past that one statement
Oh, help me out. Show me the "atheist ideas" that I can't see with my limited (not god-assisted) intellect!
By the way, are you REALLY arguing that because MOST people believe something it must be true? If so, you had better reexamine your belief system - isn't the Muslim faith the majority religion of the world right now? If not, it's Catholic for sure, so either way, you must be very, very wrong..
Not in the least. I don't know about all atheists, but the three or four I've been talking to here (you included) have given me some very powerful reasons to avoid that philosophy.
it certainly does make the word equate literally minded bigots.
Yes, because you don't seem to have the courage to accept reality, so you spend a lot of time adamantly avoiding it, by proposing one absurdity after another.
What? One absurdity after another? Oh my gosh. I'm absurd? I don't know if I can wrap my head around that one. Do you really think so? Why have you never brought this up before? Why would you let me post like that without pointing this out sooner? I thought we were friends. Pcunix told me all the atheists hated me, but I didn't think that included you. Apparently I was wrong. This wounds me getitrite. Deeply.
No. I'm arguing that because I believe it is definitely true for me. Until differently proven otherwise. Sorry, not within your ability to do that. If it was, I'd probably be grateful. Or vice versa. This testiness wears me down after a while.
I have never said the muslims are wrong. I wouldn't know. I do know that you can't be right.
Don't worry - education is slowly becoming the norm and religions such as yours are on the way out.
Let us hope (me) pray (you) they do not destroy us all before the door slams behind them.
Maybe in your world. Here in Jesus-Land-America, belief runs high. If I were not so old..
So Mark, seriously. That's been something that's bothering me. Do you think part of the Christian bashing has to do with fears about the middle east? You do realize we would still be the great satan to them if we weren't considered a Christian nation.
It is interesting that believers find so much humor in the presentation of reality and facts. I suppose to them reality is a crazy notion.
No, that refusal to believe in anything else I get. It's the rest I find so humorous.
You mean, the refusal to believe things like unicorns and leprechauns or fairies at the bottom of a pond?
At the bottom? How do the poor things breathe? And don't their little wings get all wet?
Majik. They are not subject to the laws of physics.
you forgot your line about war in that post.
Fairies do not cause wars. They are too small. They do cause the occasional fit of jealous rage, but that is about it.
Don't you know anything outside the teeny tiny little box you have put your mind in?
Ok, ok. You guys have already ruined this. I was trying to lure daewalker in with this question. I find him as odd as you three find me.
Is this why you're acting so silly. That was a joke. Lighten up.
It's hard for us to tell which ludicrous imaginary beings are actually a part of your beliefs and which are not.
You see, we figure anyone gullible enough to believe the one is likely to believe the other.
Why do you care what I believe in? That's the mystery. Although I do enjoy the banter. Most times.
Because I wuvva you like Star Goat told me to..
I care about what your ridiculous beliefs might cause you to do. I'm not just talking about leading us into wars in hopes of hastening god-boy's return or killing doctors or impeding scientific progress, but minor irritations like plastering your religious nonsense on the coins in my pocket, giving preferential tax treatment to religious organizations, donating to charities that employ missionaries to brain wash children..
I would never interfere with your right to believe rubbish, but the fewer of you there are, the better our world will be.
no, but an imagination does help with trying to imagine what God is like. It's not like we can see him
That would be the difference between us thinkers and religionists such as yourself. We can tell the difference between the things we can imagine and reality.
You can't see him because he is not there.
and you cant see him because you deny him. Think all you want but wisdom comes from God and you cant tell the difference between things you imagine (because you imagine there is no God) and reality (because there is no reality other than God)
In the depths of delusion at both ends of the spectrum.
Yay! limited thinking!!!!!!!!!!!
We all possess the ability to imagine gods and other such ridiculous things, the difference is whether or not we let those imaginative gods rule our worldview.
But why do you keep talking world view? It's just a personal belief. I don't expect anyone to agree with me. Would never force someone to. What is so wong with having an opinion about God? Your opinion would appear to be less agreeable to others on the topic. By your idea, we should worry about your world view. It seems.
Please tel me you aren't face palming at that.
oh well, here you are in the religion and philosophy again....tsk tsk. working hard to please your namesake in hell?
Why kick against something you do not understand? I have heard tongues many times in Church. Some of it real and some of it is false. The Holy Ghost, if He is in you, will let you know what is real and what is not real.
I suggest seek the Lord about it and let Him teach you.
Sir Dent, I think you assume criticism, instead of the curiosity I have on this topic. Sure I am skeptical. It appears you are not. How do you know this is from the Lord? Wouldn't it be more reasonable if the'tongue' spoken was the common language of the congregation the miracle occurred in?
It just seems to me there is room for too much confusion on such a practise. I am seeking enlightenment. I would never belittle you for your answer. What you believe is well within your rights.
If I were you, I'd remain skeptical. If you want to see more of what pentecostals get up to, read my hub 'throwing out the baby with the bathwater'
All pentecostal churches are not the same. One can't slam all pentecostal churches in the same boat based on their own personal experiences in the past.
are there pentecostal churches haven't done the speaking in tongues, deliverance (exorcism) etc?
Speaking in tongues in church is not abuse if there is an interpreter. What's wrong with deliverance? Exorcism does not take place in my church. I experience love and peace and nothing frightening and evil. It would have been great if you had the opportunity when you were a child to experience what true pentecostal services should demonstrate. The horrible things that you witnessed as a child at the church you attended should have never took place and it was out of the will of God. If I experienced it, I would have been traumatized also.
well, it was not only the churches I went to - I found plenty of videos on the net of the same stuff, plus read many personal accounts.
Deliverance is casting out demons - how is that not the same as exorcism? Those that have depression or question the teachings of the church are told they need 'deliverance'.
As for 'interpretation' - how does someone get a long translation out of of 'ba ba ba' & other repetitive syllables? I've learnt a foreign language, & 'tongues' is not a sophisticated language - it's not much more than babble
Now you know why the church is so powerless. Because of wrong doctrine.
There is no new thing in the bible. All the examples are there. Because people don't humble themselves before God and wait patiently for his gifts they hurry into error.
Whats the only bit of furniture not found in the temple? A chair. Why? Because the priests work was never done.
How time consuming was following all of Gods ways? Very time consuming
God was a lot of work then and He is now too. When He tells us to rest from our labors we do not get to bring a chair into the temple, we need to stay sensitive to the Spirit and sensitivity does not come by worldly pleasures.
Love the Lord God with ALL your heart, mind and soul
Ye cannot serve God and mammon
Come out and be ye seperate
There is a lot of the world in the church but that need not be the case in the individual life. Just because we see these excellent examples of what NOT to do, we can then steer ourselves from that and into a more excellent relationship.
On the last day nobody will be able to point a finger at someone else.
Hi baileybear, I understand you have found plenty of videos on the net and read many personal accounts, but you are assuming that all Pentecostal churches are participating in the same things based on other churches. I am aware of Pentecostal churches which doesn't participate in Deliverance ministry, and my church happens to be one of them. I really don't see anything wrong with people recieving deliverance and being set free from demons. I never stated that Deliverance is not the same as Exorcism.
Hi Woc. The deliverance/exorcism thing makes me uncomfortable, but I have to say there is some evil that seems to appear in people, out of the blue, that makes me inclined to believe in possession.
Believing in possession is so beyond any normal rationality to make it impossible for me to tell you what I think of you and everyone else who harbors such thoughts.
Anyone who actually believes they are possessed needs real mental health professionals, not well meaning but delusional attention from other people sharing these ridiculous ideas.
This just goes too far and I would support laws to force intervention where needed.
Pcunix. I have not seen it. I wouldn't be inclined to go in search of it. I wouldn't, as a juror, believe it as a defense for wrongful acts. It is simply that there are those whose crimes are so heinous that I have to wonder what could possibly push a person to turn into a monster. Did you see the face of the man who shot the little girl and the senator in Arizona? He had the look of evil. It was frightening.
What makes all of these people take up arms against innocent civilians? I'm glad they caught one alive. Maybe we'll gain some insight. I know it isn't possession. But the world we live in is angry at something. And it is spreading.
The world has always been angry. Learn some history other than the lies of your Bible and you might know that.
No pcunix. We are getting angrier. Yes there has always been war, but this violence on a personal level was not always been perpetuated in the manner we are seeing. How many times in the last few years have you seen mass murders in malls and schools? This behavior is spreading throughout the world. There appears to be no political agenda or point other than a need for carnage. I find this disturbing.
You have heard of the holocaust? WWII? Hiroshima?
All that has happened is you have better access to media. This has always been an issue and it is not getting worse.
It tends to be confined to the most religious countries. We are pretty irreligious in the UK and we don't have nutcases with guns in Malls. You think there is a correlation?
You should be disturbed - but do not fool yourself that this is new. Oh - right - oops - does it have anything to do with stopping mandatory bible readings?
Mark, I am speaking of violence outside of war. If you don't suffer from this new phenomena then I hope it never happens in your country. But it has happened in China and Finland that I have read about. I'm scared it is going to continue to spread until we understand the cause. There's enough violence in the world without adding another problem.
We know what the cause is. Lack of education and artificial rationing of resources.
Of course you are scared. You have even managed to convince yourself that this is a new phenomenon.
Far as I understand it - it is only in very religious countries. Where did you read about the spread of this "new phenomenon" in China and Finland? The local church newsletter?
Matthew 24:11-13 (Amplified Bible)
And many false prophets will rise up and deceive and lead many into error.
(We can see them at work here in the forums)
And the love of the great body of people will grow cold because of the multiplied lawlessness and iniquity,
(What you are speaking about)
But he who endures to the end will be saved.
(What we look forward to)
Thankfully, despite what these false prophets and moaners have to say, God gave us all the truth and guidance in His word, available to all who have eyes to see and ears to hear.
I do see your point aqua silver, but these guys aren't prophets. They're as frightened of the world we live in as we are. Just because some blame Christians for it, I don't see it as a hatred of Christ. I see it as a reaction to our ongoing history. They do make some good points, but these points reflect on man. Not Christ, or Christ's true message.
I find it extremely difficult to hate anyone who probably never existed at all and - if he did - his supposed words were written down long after he was gone.
I REALLY wish you folks were capable of understanding that.
Hey, I want refering to you pcunix. I get your argument completely. I think if there were a 'prophet' here, it might be you. Which is, I guess, maybe a backhanded compliment.
I am simply saying that any animosity felt by any towards me probably has more to do with religious history than religion. I would never want to attribute our disagreements to more than that. Especially to imply that they are bad people for thinking me bad.
You are an entirely different story. You do have a problem with just the religion. You are unique.
I am sure there has been evil done that belongs solely to religion. I do agree that most would have occurred anyway and religion was only an excuse or was used as a tool to agitate the ignorant.
I also like to think that religion can and has done good things. I don't think we need it for that, so I may be giving it more credit than it deserves, but I'd rather err that way.
Hi just_curious, Yes Deliverance can make some people uncomfortable.
Well, if you help people find peace through it, it can't be a bad thing. I am curious though. Does the peace within them last?
well, sir dent like to think in terms of symbolic truth. that is his reality. he has a logic that is shared by many religious people and in cases like this, do we bother to speak in any other language than the language he is using. allow me to demonstrate.
Yeah it is all learned, perhaps subconsciously for most. It's just a let go 'and let god' kind of thing. Anyone can do it. Babies do it all the time. Just vocalize your feelings without words. That's tongues, and/or the groanings of the spirit, and/or the language of the angels, depending on your sect or pastor.
Studies have concluded that the brain more or less lets go during glossolalia episodes, and that the meaningless utterances use the same syllables and grunts or whatnot as their church leaders. If these holies within the congregation should be exposed to say a traveling holy from another congregation who comes for a tongue-speaking good time at their church, then immediately that new holy's syllables, grunts and other angelic tongue-speaking sounds will be found incorporated into the church's glossolalia vocabulary.
Whatever codified grunt system is used, the vocabulary is always very limited, repetitions of the same short range of sounds, mixed willy-nilly, in ways that could never make sense in any language.
But then of course, it's a God thing, so.. you know.
Speaking in tongues is discussed extensively in the bible, see Acts 2 Acts 10 Acts 19:1-7 1 Cor. 12
1 Cor. 14 and don't forget 1 Cor. 14:39 That cannot be ignored or erased! Mark 16:17. One should be able to speak in tongues but should be followed by interpetation or someone will understand in their own language while it would sound meaningless to others. Gibberish and Devil Tongues are also prevalent but can be easily recognized or sensed. There are times when the speaking in tongues is used in prayer but this shouldn't be done in public. "
"For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also." 1 Corinthians 14:14-15
Well gee, if this old myth book says it, it has to be true! Just like the part about women being silent in church matters.
I wrote a hub about the women being silent in church passage. Most aggressively mistranslated passage i am aware of. Shows how translation (let alone theology) reflects prejudices.
Pretty sure it is all a big mis-translation. Why would this bit be any more or less nonsensical than the talking snake and the garbage about UNsaved v SAVED? Or speaking in tongues? Or coming back from the dead?
And you think this is the most mis translated passage? Oh wait - I bet some of it is real and the perfect word of god that you do follow. Brenda thinks the bit about divorce and living in sin after is nonsense, Sir Dent thinks killing is OK unless it is babies in the womb and he is right to judge others. Cousin Yochahan thinks it says to fight all the time and Catholics are not proper Christians.
Which bits do you think are the word of god? Everything except where it says women cannot preach, I suppose? There is a far simpler explanation.
If you know anything about the culture this was written in - you would know that women are to shut up when in the presence of men and walk behind them at a respectable distance when in public - I see them doing it today, so goodness knows how bad it was when the perfect word of god was being crafted. This is probably the least mistranslated part of the bible. Oh dear.
I talk about a specific translation issue in the hub. It would take awhile to explain here, easier to just read the hub if you are interested.
I have read it. The specific issue of which you speak is probably the least mistranslated part of the bible. And certainly - "in context," makes perfect sense that a woman is not qualified to teach a man anything.
Just for the sake of (once again) disspelling the rumors you keep trying to perpetuate, Mark, I'll say this---
I do not think it's "ok" to divorce and live in sin after. I've never said that, that I recall, or anything that can be construed as such. I just know that God is a merciful God when people REPENT of their sins. Even Believers are human and fall into temptations sometimes. Sometimes the actions of others, including our spouses, leave us with no good options, thereby putting us in predicaments where we're prone to sin. These are not excuses, but they are reasons. Doesn't make it right, and God chastises us. If we repent and trust Him, He sets our feet back onto the path toward Him. We are all still sinners, but ones saved by His grace. We often still have to live with the consequences of our sins, even though in His eyes they're removed as far as the east is from the west.
As far as the beef you have with Sir Dent and the other Brother, I most likely agree with them on the issues you hint about. They can either ignore your accusations or choose to call you out for 'em, that's up to them. This time I've chosen to respond because I don't like seeing people spread unfounded rumors.
If it were up to you, Mark, I'd have a scarlet letter permanently seared upon my chest or head. Whatever! I'm very glad you're not my Judge. My Judge is the Almighty, and he's got something you apparently don't----the willingness to forgive.
And something else He has that you don't----the authority to forgive. You don't have that. It's not you from whom I've even needed to ask forgiveness, ever! It's Him. For I've never wronged you. I would suggest you re-think some of the things you learned from your past.....at least, I believe it's you who says you used to be a Bible believer? If I've got that wrong, then correct my statment. At any rate, if that's true, you've thrown away the wisdom that's offered to you, and for what meaningless purpose I cannot fathom.
So - it is "OK" then? As long as you repent. Is it "OK" that you murder some one as well? As long as you repent afterwards? I assume so - no wonder you are incapable of developing moral and ethical standards. You have no moral compass to guide you.
Ah, Mark. Ye have so little understanding! Or else...so much deviousness! God knows which!
Bringing this back to the subject of the thread, I'll say......your persistent denunciation of the Faith and those who have it is.......almost enough temptation to make even the strongest Christian speak in a different tongue----one that would be outside the normal rules of appropriate conduct anywhere! LOL
But no dice. Nice try.
See ya around. Just try to stop spreading false gossip, purty please? I did ask nicely, in case you noticed. But do I expect you to actually do so? Nah. That would surprise me. And that would be a miraculous thing, something separate from the usual boredom of your rants. Something you would never ever in your whole life wanna do I'm sure.
False gossip? You are divorced and have since remarried. According to the bible - this is a sin. Or at least is it in my bible. I would not say a word apart from I see you all over going on about other people's sins and the evil they spread.
I am just pointing out the hypocrisy - that is all. I understand just fine thank you.
Brenda says above you used to be a bible believer. Somehow I missed that. Is it true? Would you mind saying for how long? Do you think of it as being a Bible believer, or a follower of Christ? How did you make the change to atheism?
I was never a bible believer - no. I was indoctrinated into the belief system - yes. Not the same thing. The change to atheism is easy - just ask yourself one simple question - "does it make sense?"
You have already asked yourself this question and decided it is a "mis-translation," that is the problem.
Simple, by recognizing, acknowledging and understanding that believers have been indoctrinated into their religions. At no time in their lives have they ever made the choice to believe the things they believe, and that the choice was already made for them.
repentance by salvation is NOT a catholic teaching. The bible says NO man can come to God but by Jesus christ.. and yet the catholics have confession booths with priests and mary to pray to and numerous other saints.
It is not an amazement to me that after having been indoctrinated in such an horrendous religious belief system you balk at the true words of the bible, so please do not use your false beliefs as a standard for all.
Your lack of christ, blinded you and failure was imminent. Now God tries to unteach you these false beliefs and you fail to pay attention.
and now your new choice of unbelief condems you even more.
Yes, I do understand how a believer who embraces an isolated and specific set of beliefs would consider everything else outside of that belief system to be "horrendous" and anyone who questions it is "blind" and will be "condemned" to an eternity of hellfire.
And, although your particular set of beliefs is different from millions/billions of other believers on the planet, it is no different in it's intolerance towards others.
Actually I never saw the bit where brotheryochanan said hellfire, which you ascribed to him, so either your imagination added the non contextual bits to make your reply a bit more spicy, or you are concerned having read the bible that what you fear may happen to yourself.
Either way brotheryochanan never said hellfire to you.
Must be condemned to an eternity of tapioca pudding, then?
Guess you would be condemned to whatever you wanted to be condemned to, or feared the most..... in your instance probably condemned to and eternity sitting in a prayer circle!
Yes, and I'm sure that your laughing is in earnest in that you could care less whether or not it is a prayer circle, tapioca pudding or anything else, just as long as you know I'm going to be condemned by your god.
Gives you warm and fuzzies all over, I'm guessing.
Actually it gives me no 'feeling' whatsoever, for you yourself will choose tapioca pudding (or chocolate if you desire) or prayer circle or whatever is your worst vision of eternity, by your own confession (your speaking of words)you prophesy your own future.
At least PC holds out a hope for chocolate pud, even on his worst day, he remains optimistic that somehow, something, will make the day bearable.
Have a nice eternity!
Hey Mark. Saying you're sorry isn't repenting. You know that. If a person is truly remorseful, of course they're forgiven. Whatever the sin, whatever the faith or lack thereof.
Don't be silly. There is no one to forgive them but themselves. How silly - why would you forgive some one because they are sad they dunnit? Forgiveness benefits the one doing the forgiving. No wonder your religion produces what it does.
And I never said anything about saying sorry. Didn't bother reading before commenting? No problem - I forgive you.
Actually, I would disagree, but of that was all I had to say this would be a waste of a post. I agree with Brenda, in that she only needs to worry about whether she and God are on the same page.
That being said; if what is perceived as a sin is repeated over and over, you can't very well think you were remorseful or forgiven. If you don't change your behavior patterns when you recognize something as wrong, you are deluding yourself.
Just did not bother reading anything I wrote did ya? Brenda is the most judgmental person on the forums and I would not have said a word but for her constant barrage of attacks on other's sins.
Speaking of deluding yourself.......
Sorry. I stand corrected. I thought most judgmental was your title.
Aww - don't be silly - I is just telling you wot god sed. Little wonder your religion causes so many wars.
I know. You are right. I was out of line. If you know somewhere I can buy a whip to flog myself with I could save your fingers the trouble of typing. I could simply flog myself every time I react to your posts. Would give you more time to chastise others. Yours is a heavy load enough without me adding to it.
Do not push me MARK. If it's war you want, I have to warn you. The fairies owe me. Big time. You'd never win with them on my side. Not a warning. Just a thought.
Nope. Sarcasm isn't necessarily a sin. Jesus used it several times.
Woohoo. I'm saved. (see Brenda's post). Can't hold that over my head any more
My tongue speaks against blatant unrepentant sin, yes indeed. Something I winked at years ago before I became an adult in Christ. Just like God winked at divorce and other things before Christ called us to repentance.
You just can't seem to get over the fact that I'm a forgiven woman. And basically you keep wanting to find fault with me even though I was the faithful one in my first marriage.
You keep kicking at the pin-pricks of the Holy Spirit, at the nudges of your conscience. And I seem to be one of the people whose words get under your skin!
The difference between your "judging" and mine is two things----you have no authority to Biblically judge anyone since you're not even fond of the Word of God; and when I speak against blatant sins like unrepentant homosexuality and abortion, etc., I do so in general terms and try not to call anyone out personally.
Usually, those people voluntarily reveal their rebelliousness and try to make the Bible sanction it, and start attacking me and others who speak the Word. And they, usually, including you, make a point of making things veerrry personal, as is evidenced right here in this thread.
I could say it's a sin to eat turnips, and I bet a bunch of liberal-minded people like you would jump on me saying they're turnip-eaters and I better not "judge" them like that, without even asking why I believe eating turnips is a sin. (Just for the record, I'm giving an example; I don't really think it's a sin to eat turnips). Just so's the picky ones around here know.
I'm sometimes flattered! Apparently you hang onto, not every, but many words that us Christians say!
And other times, of course, you're more like a thorn in my side; your playing devil's advocate gets old.....
What is the best way to become a graduate.
Interesting explanation. Of course, the serious flaw in your response is the fact that anyone can do anything they want and right it off as a "reason" as opposed to an excuse to do it. They then repent that sin and move on to doing other sins in which god will forgive them if they repent.
If you say your god is your judge, he may very well not agree with you considering that serious flaw.
Clearly, your response is an excuse to sin and never have to take responsibility for your actions. In essence, you have forgotten about any consequences when you released yourself from the sin. No gods have released you as yet from sinning.
Not all will find repentance even though they seek it. Esau sought repentance with tears and did not find it. Judas Iscariot sought repentance and did not find it, yet Peter found repentance after denying Christ three times.
A person who sins willfully is treading on dangerous ground.
Possibly, but it is of no consequence to those who call themselves Christians and willfully sin whenever they want, knowing that if they repent they will be free to do whatever they want again. It is this teaching of repentance that does not allow believers to gain or achieve any moral or ethical values.
"It is this teaching of repentance that does not allow believers to gain or achieve any moral or ethical values.
Once again you display your clear ill informed misunderstanding of being a child of God.
The child (for one day he will grow up to into adulthood with practice) stumbles over say pornography. Oft times he finds himself horny and comfies himself with viewing such abomination. Abomination the child of God knows it to be but with internet it is just so convenient. Perhaps he is unmarried and has been alone for years, and with becoming a new christian this pattern has yet to be broken for indeed fleshly vices are hard to discontinue. But each time the christian views, God is convicting him/her of this wrong. And IF the christian obeys God and crucifies his flesh into obedience to Gods teaching and reproval then God will move him/her onto higher levels of consecration. If the person does not obey and continues, thus hardening their heart and remains in this vice, God will not move them onward. This is called a wilderness experience and will last so long as the balances of disobedience lean toward the disobedient side of the scale. IF there is NO repentance for this sin (as is the trap quite often, the christian hardens his heart and fails to recognize that the boat has slipped its mooring and the person is drifting farther away from Gods ways and revelations (as often is the case with continued sin) then we will see a christian who is not following in the ways of God, is hypocritical and often quits christianity altogether at some point.
God is not mocked, christians cannot sin and get away with it, neither can the unsaved.
You are confused by what christians can do and cannot do. Christians like other people CAN do anything they want just as everyone else does. In fact christians come from the same background as the unsaved, which is doing what comes naturally and not contemplating their sinful lives, until God demands repentance (defined as turning around and proceeding in the opposite direction). Christians are not put in a box by God or programmed as a computer, the christians will is not blessed into obedience and perfection. We are not embued from above into a lifestyle free of sin. We are given the choice (its all about choice) to not sin. As we desire our lives to be changed - then and only then will God 'up us a level', but that desire has to be genuine, coming from within and not just lip service.
Believers like yourself demonstrate well beyond a shadow of a doubt what being a child of a god is all about. I have personally been on the receiving end of your particular brand of Christian venom and personal insults.
You do your very best to inform us and give us a complete understanding of a child.
Yes well, it would appear your argument is better favored towards those Christians who do sin and then claim they have been forgiven for their sins.
Not at all, I witness what Christians do and don't do all the time, here and elsewhere. It is hypocrisy at its finest.
It's always fun delving into the minds of Christians who constantly speak for their gods, telling us what they think and do as well as what we should think and do, all the while thinking and doing whatever they please, despite their own sermons and lectures on morals and ethics.
again you are wrong and miss the point
i tire of you
I would humbly like to respectfully ask that you take some sort of reading comprehension class because any and every post seems entirely wasteful while you read it.
sorry for the venom but its a part of christianity too. Are you undeserving of such treatment? I think you well deserve it. Would it be any different face to face? No it wouldn't, in fact i would tell you more sternly and at greater lengths where you are wrong.
Venom for Jesus.
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angels look upon the state of mankind and wonder in amazement at the amount of wasted time humans are involved in just dealing with everyday necessary chores.
But you post must have them doubly wondering in amazement at the extra amount of time you wasted posting that lil bit o crap.
Speaking in tongues is common in the most ignorant churches here in the deep south. A series of the same gibberish words used repeatedly but interpreted by the preacher to be a wonderful or tragic tale, depending on what mood the preacher is in.
Since the speakers of such gibberish don't know what they are saying themselves, they cannot disagree with the translation. A win-win situation for the showman minister and his agenda.
It is entertaining in a "circus sideshow" kinda way. But this is merely from the viewpoint of an actual witness to many such events.
Sara Palin's old church in Alaska featured a lot speaking in tongues. It has opened her to a certain amount of ridicule. If she ever gets to be President, she could rehire Donald Rumsfeld. He always seemed to be speaking in tongues.
If the Lord sends a message thru some one speaking in tongues, before it happens, the entire church will fall silent. You could hear a pin drop and there is a feeling of anticipation. You know something is about to happen. Then there is an interpreter. I have seen it happen.
Speaking in tongues is a gift. Just like any gift, a person has to accept it.
So speaking in tongues is like the over sized sweater my grandmother sends me every xmas? A gift that doesn't fit and looks rediculous. I agree. Speaking in tongues is a way to convince ignorant morons that the super daddy in the sky has a cb radio and converses with the most ignorant percentage of the population. Kind of like aliens and big foot always meeting up with hillbillies or moonshine addicts, or republicans.
Name calling. How adult of you.
Just because ya don't understand something doesn't mean it isn't real. I hear people speak in other languages where I work. Sounds like jibberish to me, but, they understand. As long as they understand, I don't have to. If I need to know, some one will translate.
Speaking of work, I got to go.
Have a great day.
thats odd the last oversized sweater i ever knew to edify a bunch of people was.... well...... never. Your comment was like an oversized sweater that your grandmother sends you every year (why dont you tell her?)
somethings are not possible to compare.
a gift of god and the wrong gift of a grandmother are a good example.
Since christianity takes a simpleton to join its ranks, i am thinkin stump we should be seeing you in church soon.
translation, you are in alpha states, your unconscious is moving your body as reflex. this produces a kind of trancelike feeling where your body's nerves experience jolts of impluses that you will not be able to control. the sounds ofcourse are by products of the impulses that ultimately relaxes your muscles, resulting in deep relaxation.
no we are not in alpha states..
1 Corinthians 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are SUBJECT to the prophets.
The word prophets means both to prophesy and includes speech inspired by God (tongues, word of exhortation and wisdom) We do not enter trances nor do our eyes roll round or do we get all weird.
We hear what say but we receive each word as the other word goes out. There is no preplanning. Perhaps the first sentence is given but that's just to confirm that you have a word to give. The rest is unknown and the content revealed bit by bit. The person speaking can speak the word or refuse to speak it, can stop at any time (but usually doesnt until completion) When giving forth these types of gifts the speaker is completely aware.
Shown again and again and again to be nothing but nonsense babble.
you speak of what you post
I do not credit you with enough tollerance, understanding or patience to be able to grasp anything christian
I would appreciate in future if you just read what i wrote and did not bother to respond as your responses would show me again and again and again to be nothing but nonsense and babble.
Not a chance. I will always respond to lies.
Samarin found that the resemblance to human language was merely on the surface, and so concluded that glossolalia is "only a facade of language". He reached this conclusion because the syllable string did not form words, the stream of speech was not internally organised, and– most importantly of all– there was no systematic relationship between units of speech and concepts. Humans use language to communicate, but glossolalia does not. Therefore he concluded that glossolalia is not "a specimen of human language because it is neither internally organized nor systematically related to the world man perceives".
On the basis of his linguistic analysis, Samarin defined Pentecostal glossolalia as "meaningless but phonologically structured human utterance, believed by the speaker to be a real language but bearing no systematic resemblance to any natural language, living or dead".
Romans 8:6 "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace".
Romans 8:7 "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be".
i will always respond to the wrongness of the carnally minded as they feebly try to discern spiritual things.
Believe the discourses of a scientific linguist who is unsaved and is not christian nor has the spirit of God within him neither is baptized in the Holy Ghost, if you like BUT i will always believe the truth of Gods word and His holy Spirit.
as i have said before and i will say again for clarity sake. The pattern of receiving the Holy Ghost is to desire and wait:
Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
the gift of tongues cannot be called down, it is a gift. Since a pattern of pentecostal church is to 'just speak it out' this is not a gift given freely but one wrestled from above, therefore, there will be utterances of people who being deceived into thinking they have the BHG, will talk gibberish as you have attested to and i myself have witnessed. When a person receives the BHG they will KNOW it beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Good luck with this.
I know you cannot and will not let yourself believe this because then you would have to acknowledge God exists.
1 Corinthians 14:22 "Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serves not for them that believe not, but for them which believe".
I would not know not having gone through it myself. I am merely trying to get a grip on what goes on in the body. As for the spirit, that is entirely subjective.
I truly do not see how it can get any plainer than invisible force.
If you look at it from a spiritual context, it is whatever you want it to be. I have heard it several times, been in a service where some break out in "tongues," dance, etc.
Linguists have studied this pretty thoroughly. And it doesn't meet any definition of natural human language. Having some training in linguistics (very little) it sounded to me like babbling. So scientifically speaking it is really just "hysterical utterances." But if you believe, you believe - it's a question of faith versus science.
Do you know any links, or books, that discuss linguists' studies of speaking in tounges?
Yes... there are two linguists in particular who have done serious research into this phenomenon. Felicitas Goodman who taught at OSU and then nearby Denison University in Ohio and William J Samarin, a linguist at the Univeristy of Toronto.
Again, their research is based on pure science and not faith.So they will always be looking at this from a scientific perspective. In summary, both linguists found that the speakers' native languages greatly influenced their utterances when "speaking in tongues." Goodman is now deseased. I am not certain about Samrin. I suggest trying internet searches with their name in parenthesis with the qualifier "linguist" or "linguistics." Of course you could also use "glossolalia" as a search workd modifier - that is the actual term for "speaking in tongues."
By the speakers' native language greatly influencing the utterances when speaking in tongues I should have explained it like this: every language has what is sometimes called a "phonemic index" or "phonemic inventory." This is "linguist-speak" for all the sounds that are contained in a particular language - vowels and consonants. Some of these sounds are shared across languages - such as the vowel "a." Some are not like the consonant "th" that we find in the English word "the." These linguists found that when say native English speakers were speaking in tongues, they used only sounds that were native to English. They found the same thing with Spanish speakers, Japanese speakers, etc.
And one would expect that if these were really different "languages" believers were speaking while "speaking in tongues," sounds not native to English would pop up in their speach. This wasn't the case.
Thanks DT, I'm finding this very interesting and this info gets me started.
which is proof that it's all nonsense. Anyone that has learnt a foreign language can hear that tongues is repetitive babble that they have all copied off each other
Well "sense" is what the believer or non-believer makes of it. I don't see a rainbow in the same way as a fundamentalist Christian or Jew would see it. That doesn't mean the fundamentalists are "wrong" to believe the way they do. I don't tend to slam other peoples' belief systems as long as they don't discriminate against mine.
as to learning a foreign language.
When people learn foreign languages few get it right off the bat. Few speak perfectly their new language as learning takes time and sometimes strange sounds and accents have to be applied that the tongue is not familiar with forming. (Chinese and the letter L for example) Middle eastern language is difficult to pronounce and takes some practice.
When the language of tongues comes to a person, it, like all spiritual gifts has to be practiced or used. When we were children our native language did not come easily and our first words seemed like weirdness. As we grew up we added new words to our language and increased our vocabulary.
With my personal tongues i have noticed new words and different inflections - a growing up process - as i went from a child to a more mature christian, my spiritual language grew up also.
There are 3 offices that Gods spirit functions in:
Where the UNsaved are concerned, Gods spirit functions to drag or draw them TO the cross that they might be saved.
Where the saved are concerned, Gods spirit dwells IN them
Where the baptized in the Holy Ghost are concerned, Gods spirit is UPON them to enable them in a powerful way.
Yes there is a language of tongues that is quite foreign to this world and is NOT a language of this world that Believers acquire when God baptizes his Spirit upon them.
I need not go into scripture, this is just fact.
I will say, that the scriptural pattern for receiving the baptism in the Holy Ghost is to desire and wait (as the apostles were told to do prior to acts chapter 2) The problem with pentecostalism is that their pattern of receiving the HG is to "just speak it out" (you are already saved, now just speak it out). This is incorrect and as a result of this 'dragging' the gift of God out of heaven what is heard is just garble and blabber. The true baptism of the HG cannot be dragged or demanded, as with all gifts, God appoints the time, hence the pattern is desire and wait. So you may see many youtube videos and think "oooh that sounds like a bunch of noise or jibberish and you would be right", the language of heaven or angels as Paul puts it is powerful and somewhat pleasing to the ear.
Also i wish people who are baptized in the HG would keep it silent in the church. You may be elated and excited but the pattern, (there are always patterns) is to keep tongues silent in the church unless it is being used for the edification of the body of Christ, always with an interpreter as per 1 corinthians 14:5,6,18.
"I need not go into scripture, this is just fact."
No it isn't. There is no such language, there is only gibberish. Prove your "fact" if you dare.
But you can't refute the book of Raviolations in the book of FSM:
10.Then the fifth pirate poured out his bowl on the big chair of the president. Darkness came over America, but that's because it was about three AM. It'd be pretty freaky if it were light at that time, you know? Again, I digress. So the people of America bit their tongues 'cos they had a bad dream about biting their tongues, 11.and they cursed 'cos it hurt. but they did not turn because they didn't move around in their sleep that much.
As you may know i do not delve into depths and nor do i waste time to twist nonbelievers arms. My words go out to those who know and understand. As for the rest of the "wanna be deserving of huge amounts of attention", I say go back to church and do it right this time.
There are clues in my post that you may look into and that's the way i like it, uh huh, uh huh, that's the way i like it, uh huh.
If you are disappointed i did not take up your dare, well, i am disappointed many are not saved.
feel free to phone a pentecostal pastor if you dare.
yes, that claim of fact leapt out like a swollen tongue
1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
I do like to picture you as a "tinkling cymbal" Dent! LOL!
just_curious - the fish have arrived. These are the ones you need to be talking to about their bizarre beliefs.
They are from the country.
Sir Dent, I think therein lies the problem. I assume you are quoting King James. That translation was into what was the vulgar tongue of that generation. It does not equate to the way we speak or think today. Therefore you have a great deal of differences of opinion on the meaning. Read a new living translation. These are done by unbiased commitees of scholars and theologians who attempt to help us see the meaning more accurately.
My translation has no reference to 'tongues' in any way at that passage.
KJV: Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
ASV: Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
ISV: Mat 27:46 About three o'clock Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?", which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
LITV (literal translation): Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour, Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani; that is, "My God, My God, why did You forsake Me?"
Let those who have an ear to hear, hear what the spirit has to say.
I'm sorry, what does that have to do with the question?
Put in words you might understand: is it not possible that, by misunderstanding the meaning, and subsequently sharing this misunderstanding that you are contributing to the difficulty a non believer has with the idea of Christianity?
To lead another astray is one of the worst sins. You need to be sure of your words before you speak. This is one reason I would never push my faith as if someone should follow my idea of what is right. I could be wrong, as could you.
the king james does not speak from the vulgate. the septuagint and vulgate and catholic choices.
the king james used the masoretic texts of the OT and the received texts of the apostles.
Sorry. You are right. I was in the middle of something and I shot that back. I get feted to easily and don't swype we'll when I'm irritated.
Yes.I do. I apologize. It is simply that absolutes irritate me. I see so much good, in so many of the posts on this site, yet everyone seems afraid of the thought of anyone with a concept of God. I find some concepts God somewhat ridiculous myself, but that does not make God ridiculous, our impossible. Sorry if I have snipped at you on some of the threads. I'm better now, I think.
Yes, any concept of a god is ridiculous and impossible. You simply refuse to accept what your brain is trying to tell you.
I give about a 50-50 chance of you becoming a fundie or a bitter atheist.
I doubt I will ever find a way to stay bitter, on a daily basis. Bitter people don't have fun do they? I like to laugh. Could you throw out a few other options for me to consider? Thanks, in advance, for the help. I'll owe you one.
Oh, I think you would be bitter, because you would understand how much of your life was wasted with your delusion.
I never had any delusions, so had no reason to feel that way, but anger and bitterness is a common trait among late converting atheists. It's not absolute of course, and it is not the only cause. My wife hates religion because she was forced to live with it against her will for so many years. I was exposed, but not forced, so didn't learn to hate.
But yes, if you ever become rational about religion, I think you might be bitter.
Pcunix, I'm a realist. I realize that is difficult for you to understand, due to your opinion of my beliefs. I like truth. If I ever determined atheism to be the truth, I'd probably throw a party.
Trust me. I've lived in hell and there's always a silver lining to be found, if you just look hard enough. Nothing could ever make me bitter. If it could, I'd already be there.
This is so hero's journey. it seems you have acquired the boon.
And yet when one says they pursue the path of Buddha, you wish them well. Or i am a scorpio and my moon is in a wrong place, they get some sort of acceptance. Or what of some self help program that they may fail at and inevitably become depressed or of low self esteem. When people go on a weight loss program everyone cheers and when the weight comes back on some serious psychological problems can occur but everyone rallies to cheer them up.
yet when people say they follow christ these same people deride jesus and persecute his followers and even take up sacred missions to destroy the work of jesus.
This jesus slander seems like self justification for personal failure. It is one sided, prejudice and redundant.
Often those who think themselves wise in mans wisdom are no more than really foolish individuals acting selfishly.
the brain generated "god" for an important adaptive reason. that much we can be sure. Nothing human is random. They arise as responses to the environment. The environment necessitated the need for G-d. Perhaps to alleviate the fear of death, in order to deactivate the reptilian brain in order for the prefrontal cortex, the smarter of the two to compute the best survival behavior.
This is a collective direction, with some samples straying from the general trend. These samples who have less efficient survival/social/cognitive will be unable to mate, grow old without passing on their genes and will eventually die out genetically.
How long have we been worshiping gods, PC? And prior to buildings what were the tallest structures built by man...you don't know?
Churches. As a matter of fact, the development of human art and architecture centers around religion. It changed us from primitive hunter gatherers to civilized people. Yes, there were wars, but wars existed in less organized ways before religion.
the concept of gods/god is part of our evolution. It is not poppycock, or what do you call it gobledegook. It is an ingenious adaptive behavior. Only man, worships a Divine. why? because only intelligent species can comprehend what it is.
We have no idea if other animals believe in nonsense. As usual, you babble nonsense.
Belief doesn't create reality.
Actually pcunix, you are wrong. If people didn't believe that they could create something, it would never become reality. How sad a world we would live in if everyone held your opinion. Your screen name would have no meaning, for example.
Twisting meaning, the usual resort of theists.
Oddly, it has been my experience that this manner of communicating is not limited to theists. I have dealt with it quite frequently when attempting to converse with theists, atheists, agnostics and sundry others.
Although I believe I understood your intent; your statement, as posted, is untrue. Many things have become reality through belief in their existence.
Pcunix, I apologize. Even though your posts appear to me as nothing more than repeated attempts to belittle the position of a theist, you have always posted back and forth with honesty of intent. I should not have twisted that simple statement in an attempt to argue. It has happened so often to me in my conversations with those who call themselves atheists that I momentarily fell into that thought pattern.
It is unfortunate. I am truly curious of this mind set, but apparently there is too much hatred and bitterness associated with it. I find it impossible to follow any stand, save yours, without causing undue strife.
Yours is simply non belief. No confusing emotions attached to it. I do respect you for that. It is where I stand with my core belief in God. I'm so sorry that you and I are the exception, not the rule. No one should have to struggle with themselves at this level.
Anyway, I believe I have finally forced the other prominent nay sayers to admit defeat. You and I will now be left to our own devices. I respect your stand. Perhaps, there will come a day where you could extend me the same courtesy.
Perhaps I can help? You keep saying that you want to understand the mindset that does not believe nonsense as fact, but when the simple answer is given that atheists do not believe in a god because it is irrational nonsense - you accuse them of bitterness and hatred.
It is very, very simple. You know how you think speaking in tongues is bizarre behavior? Atheists think passive aggressive attacks and pretending to want to understand something when you really want to argue about it is bizarre behavior.
Both stem from the same place - irrational beliefs that have no basis in reality resulting in an inability to comprehend what one is doing and a powerful need to defend an un-defendable position. Hence the constant conflicts caused by your religion.
I hope that helps.
Yes Mark, it does. You are so sweet to take a moment to share that. I was pretty sure I had run you all off. I'm afraid, it has been my observation that neither position is defensible, except by simply saying that is your opinion. That is why your statement about ignosticism burrowed into my head.
I truly wish someone could offer an answer that makes perfect sense. On either side of the debate. Or, at the least, talk about it without resorting to baiting, or sarcasm.
Which is why I do appreciate your post. I'll try very hard to think about what you have said.
There is an answer that makes perfect sense. Your argument is indefensible. Your position is indefensible. The fact that - because you need to believe - you will fight and argue that non-belief is exactly the same as believing is the reason for all the fighting. Really? Not believing in the Tooth Fairy is exactly the same as believing in it? Honestly?
Seriously. All kidding aside. If you are not running - do you describe your position as not running? No - the forcible insertion of believing in an Invisible Super Being as the default position is the problem.
You are being hypocritical when you point out that speaking in tongues is bizarre - yet then demand respect for your ridiculous beliefs. The only reason they hold any credence at all is 2,000 years of wars and killings to make this the default position.
Think about it - you cannot even define it - yet you argue in favor of it. Does that make sense?
Mark, I have never claimed that belief in God was defensible to anyone other than one's own self. What I continue to be confused on are two things, really.
The first; Why are there those so adamantly expecting me to? It is always an argument. I don't believe it has to be.
Second; Atheism is not defensible either. I understands your argument that it is the default position, I simply disagree.
You make too many assumptions of my beliefs in the rest of your post. I will not defend what I don't believe was right. As I would never defend the institution of slavery, or the genocide of the american indian. It is part of the collective past of this country. It was wrong. The only thing I can do is know this fact, and know that I would never stand by silently if such conduct were considered again.
If you choose to view anyone of belief with disgust it is your right, but it does not make your views right. I'll be honest, I never knew how much hatred was out there. It has been an eye opener.
I've always assumed that the only thing standing in the way of harmony was a lack of communication. I stand corrected.
I may have said that I would like respect, but if I have, in any way, stated that I demanded respect then I apologize. I do seek tolerance only.
We give you tolerance. I give more than that - I will stand and defend you against anyone who tries to take away your rights.
I will never respect your beliefs, though.
Try to understand: I defend the rights of the the Klu Klux Clan to exist and recruit members. I will speak against their ugly beliefs any chance I get. It is exactly the same.
Pcunix, I am so so sorry that anyone has given you reason for grief over religion. If you hold my beliefs in part responsible for anything in your life you have no idea how much I wish it weren't so. Anyway, you guys have brought me far enough down for one day. As I told Mark, I had never imagined there was this much animosity out there. It really hurts me that there are those who feel abused by my simple belief in God.
I've studied your post and I think it might be helpful if I shared a response. I have no idea how to make the cut and past show up as I have seen others do it, but I've tried below.
Perhaps I can help? You keep saying that you want to understand the mindset that does not believe nonsense as fact, but when the simple answer is given that atheists do not believe in a god because it is irrational nonsense - you accuse them of bitterness and hatred.
My response is simply this:
The difficulty I have in understanding the argument that God is evil when it is presented in the way that it has been is simply that if a person that professes non belief in God and non belief in the truth of the Old Testament tells me God has killed 32 million, it appears as little more than hatred. To argue this point, you must first believe in God’s existence.
To tell me that God does not answer the prayers of the starving is, again, an emotional argument. It appears to be bitterness about the suffering of Man. You cannot argue that the fact that God does not answer prayers is reason for non belief when you use this tactic. It leaves me to assume that there is, indeed, a belief at the core of the argument.
Arguing that the scriptures are contradictory is, again, a problem, if you do not believe in them. This leads me to believe the person posting has attempted and failed; and that there is some residual bitterness from the failed attempt.
It is very, very simple. You know how you think speaking in tongues is bizarre behavior? Atheists think passive aggressive attacks and pretending to want to understand something when you really want to argue about it is bizarre behavior.
My response can only be:
Passive aggressive attacks, as you call them are simply attempts to deflect the obvious disdain you have for the position of the theist. When posts repetitively include the words ridiculous and delusional; when the posts infer that the believer is in need of psychiatric care, or that I am part and parcel to the imminent destruction of the world; I do not know what other position to take. I do not want to argue, but I am not a bobble head doll. If I turned the other cheek on every attempt to badger me on my position using what I believe to be emotional arguments, I would be dizzy from the effort.
Both stem from the same place - irrational beliefs that have no basis in reality resulting in an inability to comprehend what one is doing and a powerful need to defend an un-defendable position. Hence the constant conflicts caused by your religion.
As to this statement, I agree in that both are, for the most part, undefensible. I have to tell you that both sides appear to tumble into the irrational. I do understand the concept of non belief. It is not a difficult leap of any mental process to understand the flip side of the debate. When someone refuses to do that, I find it irrational.
Religion does not cause conflict with non believers except as you choose to react to it. Hostile conflict is not necessary in a debate. I do feel compelled to add that when the argument of wars is presented I do tend to take umbrage.
God does not exist - but if it did - it must be evil as well as good.
I have never argued this position.
I have never argued this position. God does not exist - therefore he does not answer any prayers. How silly and emotional of you.
Yes - you sure do make a lot of spurious assumptions and inaccurate conclusions.
The scriptures are contradictory and misleading. Only a believer will discard this fact - why? Because they really need to believe.
But your beliefs are indeed ridiculous and delusional - and you are quite comfortable pointing out that speaking in tongues is bizarre - yet you are complaining that I tell you the truth about your beliefs? This is hypocrisy.
Of course you want to argue. I know you do not need to turn the other cheek. Why would you? Just because a 2,000 year old dead guy said so?
I understand that you think not believing in invisible super beings is the same as believing in them. This is nonsense.
Not believing in something that cannot be defined, has caused numerous wars and the proclaimed followers refuse to follow is perfectly rational. Your position is irrational and indefensible.
Yes - I understand that you think it is all the fault of non believers for not respecting your irrational beliefs. This is nonsense. So - I take it that if I attack you and we fight - it is your fault for reacting? How silly.
Religion always causes conflict. With other religions as well and every one else. I know you have no interest in learning about non belief - because you stand there and argue that not believing in something that cannot be defined, had no evidence for and has caused numerous wars and conflicts is exactly the same as believing.
Your desperate need to believe will not allow you to see that this is nonsense. Utter insanity. Any other belief along these lines would have you locked in an insane asylum - but because your religion spent 2,000 years murdering any one who did not believe and forcing this belief into being the default position - you are not.
And that is why you should believe in Aliens. Aliens are more believable than G-d! Yes, this is really what we want to say, don't we Mark?
Well, statistically speaking - this is true. As there are an infinite number of possible g-ds - one particular g-d is infinitely improbable. The chances of intelligent life occurring on other planets are put at 0.01% over 4 billion years.
So - yes - Intelligent aliens are far more likely than a g-d.
Which does not mean I believe in intelligent aliens - just that they are more likely to exist.
(See, Just_curious. Didn't that bring out the intellectual gentleman?)
They are not aliens if they are not flying to earth and becoming alien. They are "only life elsewhere". If you believe in aliens, you believe that alien life is travelling to our planet.
You in fact do believe in alien intelligent life. That, they are the ones who built the pyramid and so on. Unless you're revising it now. That's okay you can change your mind.
Just so you know. You did say, you believe in Alien Intelligent life. So you are in fact a BELIEVER of aliens, because as you pointed out, it is more probable to you than G-d- an intelligent being that set the entire creation in motion.
As usual, Cecilia is unable to distinguish between a possibility and a reality.
There is a large probability that life has arose elsewhere. That doesn't imply belief that any exist; it just means that finding such would not be surprising.
There is zero probability that any gods exist. Finding such is impossible.
well the dogons say their gods ride in circular disks and come from the heavens.
according to chariot of the gods, the gods ARE aliens.
so which reality is true? the dogons? yours? mine? erick von daniken's? zechariah sitchin's (who claims that yahweh is an anunnaki alien)? Jesus?Buddha? Hitler's aryan reality which is borrowed from Jung but misinterpreted? Einstein, Mandelbrot, Penrose? each on of those names and people have different conception of reality, which one is right?
There is a reality, but since we are subjective entities, that reality is outside the reach of our senses. We only infer based on what we know.
if you think you know what reality is, you're deluded. you can only be aware of your reality, not that of others.
you're smoke? or lost in a honda prelude race?
Hardly unexpected that Cecilia believes this stuff, is it?
Please stop putting words into my mouth - as far as I recall - this is the one and only time we have discussed aliens. And all I have said is they are statistically more likely than a g-d.
Resorting to saying I said things I did not say? Sounds familiar.
Hey Mark. I personally think there is intelligent life outside this planet.
You should start a thread on something. ANYTHING other than religion. Let's have something fun to talk about for awhile. This really drains me. You can't enjoy it either. Can you?
You aren't enjoying it because your rational mind is at war with your emotional needs.
You KNOW we are right. You just cannot bring yourself to admit that, even to yourself.
No, this is not the case. I just don't see the need to argue the same thing over and over with no resolution in sight. It is actually frightening how adamant men can be to try and make everyone agree with their point. You guys really need a class in sensitivity training. It would do you good. Heaven knows it couldn't hurt.
Awww. Are we being insensitive to your emotional needs to believe fairy tales about magical gods?
It is truly cruel of us to expect you to grow up and face reality.
Not in the least. But there are more civil ways to disagree. In my opinion. But I've been as bad as you, obviously.
This isn't a disagreement.
You are preaching fantasy and I am talking about reality. You keep forgetting that very important difference.
Oh, I have not forgotten we are locked in a mighty battle, my friend. My very soul teetering in the balance.
God loves me pcunix. I love God. I'm beginning to like you. Life really could be better, but it ain't that bad. Thanks for cheering me up. I was horribly down earlier.
There are no gods. You are living in a self created delusion.
Ok. I'm going to give you a freebie. Because I'm in a good mood. I think you could be right. I could be wrong. My personal belief is based on my knowledge and experience. It is apparently so off base, to what organized Christianity as a whole believes, one could easily refer to me as unchristian, or a heretic. I guess it would depend on the century. Maybe somewhat gnostic. But don't share that. I think it is considered a somewhat dirty word.
The point is, were I to find reason to doubt my experiences or somehow come to believe that God does not Love us all equally, I would probably flounder around in doubt, or disbelief. The unfortunate thing that you must know is that I am so self assured in this that I could never doubt.
I do concede the possibility that I could be wrong. I guess I'll find out for sure when I die.
You don't get to find out anything when you die. You'll be dead. You will not exist.
No pcunix. I think we'll find all the answers. Either way though we'll be dead, so whether you are right, or I am; it will be of little consequence.
Unless of course we're both wrong. Which might not bode well for either of us. Especially if the muslims are right. I'm not clear on what the Jews think will happen to unbelievers.
I certainly hope organized Christianity isn't right. I'd hate to have to stand at the gate and argue the point that they should rethink their stand on the rest of humanity. I believe I would do it though. The thought of so many souls left out in the cold would be too sad to think about for eternity.
actually we had three discussions that ended up in you think the aliens did it and they were far apart. Everytime we start to actually have a conversation, the aliens come up and I'm just convinced you're into that mythology. but it is a mythology. whether it has any factual basis or not.aliens from outer space is modern mythology.
My point is to show you that you too have beliefs and a believer which as of yet, has no actual proof, just anecdotal evidence, accounts and certainties from a subjective point of view.
so attacking believers for believing is really not understanding that you yourself are subject to the same human propensity to reach for something beyond the senses.
Please stop lying about me. We never had any such conversation and I never said any such thing. I have no beliefs in aliens, nor have I ever said I have. All I have ever said about them is that they are statistically more probable than a god. This is the first time we have spoken of aliens.
Would you have disdain for someone who told you in perfect seriousness that they believe Her Holiness, the Invisible Pink Unicorn, created us by defecating on a space rock?
How would you react if a group of these people gathered together each Wednesday to talke about how the IPU gallops through our world and that foolish people like you simply refuse to hear her Holy Hoofbeats?
You'd think them all daft, of course. You might feel sorry for them, but if they came around to your door carrying samples of the Holy Pineapple and Ham Pizza and invited you to join their services, you might get quite annoyed.
Oh, did I mention that their organization is tax exempt? Doesn't that frost you?
Put yourself in a rational person's shoes for once in your life and try to imagine our feelings toward you.
I've always believed it takes all kinds. I have no problem with freedom of religion, or speech. The door knockers move along quite politely when I make it clear I am not interested. Perhaps, a 'No Soliciting' sign might alleviate your problem.
As to the tax exempt status? I'm with you. Only non profit organizations should qualify.
This untenable distaste for all things religious cannot be healthy. I would never imagine finding your mind set so wrong. I think it would eat me away.
You know what, change the subject...Talk about the UFO abductees and their belief that they were abducted. Tell him that that is gobbledegook nonsense. They don't understand what's happening to them sort of argument.
This guy likes that mythology more. The old mythology does not get him straining above his reality anymore. He likes Greys, Whitley Striber and that sort.
It's true. He won't admit it, but I got into serious discussions with him and he knows a lot...a lot of psuedo-science about creepy aliens. He also likes political religious war factoids but will ignore you flatout, if you go anthropological. He just doesn't go for old mythology, he likes new mythology. The aliens from outer space sort.
He also want to kill the memes that cause us to believe in G-d. Except that you can't kills something that is not a unit as of yet, but a wiring pattern. A wiring pattern that resonates. To kill a meme, he would have to take large chunks of people's brains. But then, he says he understand memetics clearly.
SO for a better discussion, talk about Chariot of the G-ds. OR the Annunaki. that will yeild more interesting and productive pseudoscience talk.
Really? Have you seen animals build anything entirely ceremonial? Do they bury their dead in a certain fashion, like facing the sun for instance? Do they prostrate towards the east and bend down 5 times a day.
Everytime, you have no counterargument, you say babbling or nonsense.
Fact is, without beliefs, modern civilization would not exist. Our civilization is founded upon communities that organized because of religions. Religion evolved and is influencing our evolution, through memetics.
MEMETICS. look it up. its evolution, feedback, revision, evolution, feedback, revision. Religion plays a part in this. It is not gobledegook. It's part of our adaptive behaviors.
(By the way, I know you won't EVER get it. It's for those who will)
...".When our Lord predicted the gift of tongues (the only mention of tongues in the four Gospel records) He said, “And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name they shall cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues” (Mark 16:17)".......
and even those who spoke in tongues and cast out devils, I will say, "Get from me, I know you not!".
Would you like to inform us of where that passage is? My Bibles (and I have multiple translations) say nothing about tongues in that passage
prophecy is tongues : for the purpose of tongues is for revealing and edification of hidden things to the believing and a witness/sign to the unbelieving -in this case- the use of multiple languages to share the mystery with everyone, as occurred at "Pentecost".
In is in contrast to Mark 16
"And these signs shall follow them that believe;
In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues".
...i found something else too...
"Justin Bieber - Speaking In Tongues Lyrics
Speaking in tongues
yabba dabba dabba da da daVoala..Im killin this … caca
Call up Lady Gaga..on my..on my telephone
Hella dome..yeah..my girl beats..no metronome"
I've spoken in tongues before during a few very moving experiences, but they had nothing to do with church.
Being a minister. But not one with all the answers. I will answer the best I can. When we go back and read about pentecost-remember it was early in morning, some thought they were drunk at that early hour--but---people started coming forwards saying that is my native tongue in numerous forms. It was very mistaken, misunderstood,etc. My belief from my readings/studies. 1 Corintians 13 and 14 it gives detail instructions how to deal with. Remember that NOT everyone is to have this gift-Bible says it is the LEAST of the spiritual gifts.Better to be a teacher or prophesy,etc than this. Another thing if there is utterance as it is commonly called there will be a proper time not an interruption of service as I have seen. But usually the Pastor/Shepherd will announce that feels that someone has a word or prophesy to share. Now should someone speak and there is no one to interpret-they are to be admonished and ask to sit down. Never/ever will same person speakt and translate-never/ever!! Now here is my belief that there will be someone in congregation that knows that language-remember this in chapter 14 is for the UNBELIEVER not the believer. There will also be another to interpret. Case in point I have heard many that I was suspicious of. But Grandmother shared one time with me- A person got up at appointed time and spoke then someone else interpret then sat down. The pastor was about to dismiss service. When a distinguished looking man stood up requesting the pastor permission to speak. He explained that he was visiting that day but he was really from a not familiar region of Mexico. He testified that the person speaking and the person interpreting wer exactly correct. It was in a language he knew and he heard HIS language. This is what I believe is a true speaking in tongue. Someone will know and recognize! Now prayer language in your prayer closet that is entirely different. But I believe it will be a soothing,prayer or praise/worship, many discribe it as an HEAVENLY language. Prophecy is something else! I have witnessed first hand. A service has been in praise n worship for over 2 hours. The pastor got up to podium and was praising GOD as all could feel the presense of the Spirit. He was praying to see God even more and be clser to HIM. Suddenly, he mentioned someone had a word(propecy)a lady started speaking. She mentioned to the pastor-"you do not know how soon you will see my GLORY and me even more." This is brief of all that was said. He found out within a month he had full blown cancer-almost 9 months to the day he saw GODS glory and presence. Do not downplay his cancer that God did not love him, etc. But rather the prophetic word was true and HE prayed for it. Folks, I want to recommend a very profound book I recently read-the boy who came back from heaven-kenneth malarkey. This book lifted my spirit greatly recently. If you read do not skip to the back. Read it slow and absorb what is said if it does not cause a tear here or there I think you are getting it. Thank You
Thats nice. The correct reading of the scripture is ... "how be it we HEAR everyman in our own language". This does not mean the speakers spoke in everymans language but that they HEARD. Put yourself a short distance away in a room of many people all talking at once and you can understand nothing because you hear all the people in the room at once. With tongues there is always an interpreter and in the pentecost case, God interpreted the angelic tongues to the listeners. If they were speaking say perfect earthly languages, how would anyone say that "they are drunk", but because they were speaking in tongues, an angelic language, they said they are drunk.
Sorry< I have to post this. It is 3:15 am. Outside this crazy rooster/roosters are crowing like crazy. I know they are speaking to me-YuP! U Right time to go to bed. I surely hope none of my neighbors are getting up when I am going to bed. Here's your sign!(This is for real and only a joke).
In many South East Asian countries you will find sects that love to go into altered states of consciousness. They might fast before hand. Then there is the dreary, endless chanting,the twitching,the driving of spikes through the flesh, the fire walking etc. It is colorful but ultimately pointless.
Someone talking in tongues or in any altered state of consciousness can impress the credulous but they have nothing to say.
My ex wife loved it when I spoke in tongues. She couldn't climax any other way. Hooba Booba see leckticom itis. off again off again stupid crpitis. Try and explain to me how anyone who pretends to make sense of that has a clue about anything other than really good drugs and the accompaning pleasures involved
The best people at speaking in tongues are lesbians and that has to hurt if you are a holier than thou christian
...Bugs Bunny and Elmer fudd also teach "glossolalia" when they're not making movies.
They're both gettin' kinda old. They may be retired and not taking new students.
Check "Google" for their availability.
Hey qwark. Love your posts. I want to be you when I grow up. You're a funny guy.
I know that was tongue-in-cheek, but hey, when and if ya do get "older" ya can't BE me , BUT, ya can BE like me and that ain't bad!
'Course that's just my opinion and ya know what I think opinions are worth...:
Ecclesiastes 2:2 I said of laughter, It is mad: and of mirth, What does it?
Luke 7:34. One should follow the example of the One determined to be worthy of being followed.
The kingdom of God is among us. It has been since the resurrection. If you use the Old Testament for your world view without letting the message of the New Testament sink in first, you've lost the message. In my opinion.
if you want to grow up like qwark its you who have lost the message
And since all the lolling was goin on. I just wanted to point out that this type of conversation is vanity and amounts to nothing.
That was my message
as for the OT and NT
the scriptures cannot be broken
i include both
Lucky you, that you feel sure enough of your understanding to chastise others. I leave judgement to God.
I love watching Christians argue over imaginary things.
"No, what YOU believe isn't true!"
"Wrong, you aren't following God's teachings!"
"No, you don't understand the word of God!"
You guys are so funny.
As long as we keep the foundation intact, then we have the opportunity for "iron" to "sharpen iron", and we grow in knowledge and wisdom. So, debate is sometimes a really good thing.
Nice to see an unbeliever like you finds it interesting.
"My Make Believe Friend talks to me!"
"No, He does not! I know what He want and you don't!"
trying to reply to all your delusional garbage but it always come out like a personal attack. Feel free to bark away and maybe in your time of hoarseness you will actually listen and learn
SIMPLY MEANT, IN EACH ONES OWN NATIVE LANGUAGE. ACTS 2:1-4, WHEN HOLY SPIRIT WAS POURED OUT UPON THE 120 DISCIPLES. EACH ONES WAS ABLE TO SPEAK IN TONGUE. KEEP READING, THEY ALSO DEPARTED, SO INORDER FOR THE GOODNEWS TO BE CARRIED, EACH HAD
TO CONVERSE IN HIS NATIVE TONGUE(LANGUAGE). ALSO, REMEMBER WHAT THE APOSTLE PAUL STATED"IF I HAVE GIFT IN TONGUE AND NO ONE UNDERSTAND...I HAVE BECOME A CLASHING SOUND OF CYMBALS. SO, YOUR OPINION IS IMPT. IF NOT WE, WOULD NEVER HAVE SUCH WONDERFUL SUBJECTS 2 ELABORATE ON.
Typing in all caps is screaming!
Damn I hate a screamer!
I'm gonna add you to my list of those not to respond to.
Paul has a gift of tongues and no one understand it, what profit it?... exactly.. that is why in the next verses the context is revealed and it means if there be no interpreter in the church to interpret the angelic language, what profit has it.. Tongues is not a permanent language it is used when the spirit prays directly to God or in a church function of edification with interpretation.
1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my SPIRIT prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. When the followers were filled with the holy Ghost then the began to speak in other tongues. Are we seeing the picture here folks. Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the SPIRIT GAVE THEM UTTERANCE.
1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of ANGELS...
I speak in tongues all the time while I'm asleep. This, of course, is caused by one of my spirit guides who happens to be Hungarian. Now, how cool is that?! I speak Hungarian in my sleep?!!!
This place is so cool. To find there are people more out there than I am. It's very exhilarating.
You thought you were alone? No wonder you feel exhilarated. Actually, all the rest of the posters are me too. Yep, there are only two of us left.
A man of many faces. Very impressive, unless you're simply schizo. Which, judging by some of your posts as your alter egos wouldn't seem too off base.
So, do you record it, then have it translated? This is very odd to me. I've never heard of such. What does the voice tell you?
I'vr never recorded it and I don't hear any voices. I just speak in a different language while I'm half asleep. It's no big deal.
Thats interesting... if you are asleep how do you know its hungarian? And how would the person who told you know it was hungarian.
and how are you edified by this event? and what is the work of the spirit guide that possesses you in yoiur sleep and makes you utter words that no one understands.... If a spirit guide were to guide this lack of understanding the words and clarity of path kinda makes the guidance moot.
I had a Hungarian boyfriend at the time. I, myself, have never learned the language. According to him, it seemed like an old dialect, not the Hungarian that most people speak now. It's all very strange and I don't try to figure it out. Sometimes, it's best to let things be. It's a spirit guide. Maybe she was trying to communicate with him at the time. Who knows! It still happens from time to time. It's no biggie.
So good to see you smiling, brother!
Is your husband Hungarian? Who is there to confirm that it is in fact the Hungarian language you are speaking? How do you know your doing it if you're asleep?
Speak in tongue is a language of the angels
you cant explain that is a celestial send by god
I grown up on a Christian Faith , my church nobody ask for money
or recive any money to preach. I'm just tell you the true isint a translation for that, and is not for all maybe in a 1000s of people who goes to the church every week 2 spoke on tongue ones.
That think no happen every day . check out on the Christian congragation in USA
So if you can't speak in tongues are you classed as being tongue-tied?
My computer has been talking in tongues the whole day.
muttering in TCP, switching to UDP...
Got me all confused.
So, I installed a packet sniffer.
Maby the equivalent of a packet sniffer exists to help understand people who switch protocols, like described here in this post.
When I was a young boy, I first attended a pentecostal church where they "spoke in tongues", and I thought that they were crazy. Although, after reaching adult age, and personally studied the bible, I acknowledge that it was not crazy.
After studying psychology in college, and researching the human mind, I realized it was a very helpful thing to speak in tongues.
Our first reaction to what we have spoken is only the beginning; it continues into our deeper mind and into our subconscious where it continues to interact in a dynamic way to bring the best life decisions to the person's life.
It's what comes back that is important. We get feed back from our inner mind prioritized by the urgency; as the urgency lessens we get truths from deep parts of our subconscious.
The capacity is incomplete unless God is consider firstly and always, and the Lord is our spiritual guide, the ship sailing to and fro.
We think that the connotation of the words comes after the words are spoken, but this is not true. The connotations comes first from our subconscious mind and into the conscience mind which has depth leading into our brain which is a relay of facts that we take as true. By speaking in tongues, we feel our emotions without reasoning nor logic which blocks us from receiving inner truths that the mind has actively prepared for the brain in which words are associated with the connotations (feelings) (the potentials). For one to speak in tongues allows God to give His reply. The proof is in the puddling; the individual receives and knows.
One's brain short circuits and relays info back to meet demands that have been established such as the procedure to cook a certain dish. It's based on successful facts, but is only a small part of one's mind.
wilmier's, I agree with you. I think it's natural for anyone to believe speaking in tongues is crazy when they don't understand what it is all about. Some are quick to say it's crazy and wrong just because it sound like babble to them.
Not sounds like babble: analyzed and proven to be babble.
Gullible theists, what else is new?
More name calling? I forget you are unable to refrain from childish name calling. Where did you recieve the proven information speaking in tongues is only babbling? We will be awaiting your response.
Hey Randy. Those might just be voices in your head. You should probably have that checked into.
What? Unless you believe in my gods you will be in torment for 1000 years! My gods Moe, Larry, and Curly don't make their dependents suffer for eternity, they are more civilized than yours!
Well, I don't know about that. 1000 years of having my nose pulled and head slapped might feel like an eternity in hell. I suppose if your scripture says you get a free calendar, to mark off the days; one might argue the point of their civilized nature.
pcunix, who proved it to be only babble? Was it the person speaking in tongues and another believer? Nonbelievers know nother of the spirit. They are spiritually dead.
Speaking in tongues is all a lot of humbug, sorry to be blunt.
The first time it happened was when people from around the Galilean Sea and beyond were assembled and the apostles started their sermons in various languages that were spoken in the area, the assumption being that there would be people in the assembly who spoke those languages.
The languages were not GIBBERISH like the ones spoken now.
AND, the speaker had to give the meaning in the local language.
Does this happen now?
The first time someone suggested that I should desire to speak in tongues, I also thought they were loony and resisted the whole concept, but I did at some point find that the Holy Spirit led me to speak in tongues.
Point is, scripture allows for believers to speak in tongues:
Acts 19:5-6(Amplified Bible)
On hearing this they were baptized [again, this time] in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And as Paul laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spoke in [foreign, unknown] tongues (languages) and prophesied.
And frankly, I want EVERYTHING that God gave us to fight against the enemy and reach a dying world.
Oft-times I have been unable to pray constructively, heavens like brass and unable to break though, and at those times I have spoken in tongues, and then found that my prayer became directed, focussed and precise.
1 Corinthians 14:2
For one who speaks in an [unknown] tongue speaks not to men but to God, for no one understands or catches his meaning, because in the [Holy] Spirit he utters secret truths and hidden things [not obvious to the understanding].
Whenever I have broken into tongues, I have broken through to God and found that the right words to pray were given to me, words of power and strength, that defeated whatever needed to be taken down.
Romans 8:25-27 (Amplified Bible)
But if we hope for what is still unseen by us, we wait for it with patience and composure.
So too the [Holy] Spirit comes to our aid and bears us up in our weakness; for we do not know what prayer to offer nor how to offer it worthily as we ought, but the Spirit Himself goes to meet our supplication and pleads in our behalf with unspeakable yearnings and groanings too deep for utterance.
And He Who searches the hearts of men knows what is in the mind of the [Holy] Spirit [what His intent is], because the Spirit intercedes and pleads [before God] in behalf of the saints according to and in harmony with God's will.
Do I say that all tongues spoken in churches are real, absolutely not, much is for effect and that is a by product of Churchianity, but does that make tongues wrong, also absolutely not, and I have seen the evidence that supports the speaking in tongues, and the confusion spread amongst the enemy when one does.
"prayer circles" and tapioca pudding! Beelzedad does NOT know what he's missing! Seriously.
For crying out loud, Brenda: you never said there would be pudding!
Make it chocolate and I'm in.
Wow, you're easy!
I sure wish it was that simple...
Well, I do like chocolate pudding..
My poker friends joke about getting me a special present. My special day starts with a prayer breakfast with some football team (I detest pro sports). In the afternoon I'm whisked by helicopter (screaming all the way - I'm afraid of heights) to a Republican fund raiser and then off to a Tea Party rally just before dinner.
Dinner is a thick juicy steak and lots of booze. Of course I go hungry and thirsty.
I asked them if I could possibly get chocolate pudding so I would not hate the entire day. They said OK.
I'm thinking maybe the pudding would be worth it..
Sounds heavenly to me!
Except for the plane trip...I'm afraid of heights too. And I get motion-sick anyway. So I don't get to attend any rallies etc. unless they're very local. If it weren't for that, I might be an activist force to be reckoned with! ha.
As it is, I just reel in people like you who cross my path, with buckets of chocolate pudding!
breadpudding in wholefoods with caramel sauce. try it.
Cep'n you went fer "divorce" 'stead 'a' "chocolate"
Hey Mark. You seem like the guy to ask. You're always ready to share the atheist views. Is there nothing sacred? Do you guys have any mottos like Christianity does, like, I don't know, 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you'?
I'm just curious, after reading your post to Brenda. Thanks, in advance, for the info. I'm exploring my options and it's important to know how the other side feels about being sensitive to others. That's an important consideration when considering one's options on a religion.
That is what I am doing. I am doing unto others as they seem to want to be done to. I thought you would understand that. No? Dammit - I thought I was being clear. I keep forgetting you religionists do not do irony. The gene seems to be missing.
One day - you may understand, but it seems the absolute position you have chosen is preventing you from seeing anything other than your narrow view. Why people choose to close themselves in little boxes like this is beyond me.
Mark, settle down. I know you said there was a history. I don't know it, and I'm sorry to say I find the posts by the atheists too interesting to spend a lot of time reading others.
I just cannot imagine how difficult divorce might be for someone. I would think it would be something I wouldn't want to talk about.
I apologize. I was feeling somewhat froggy last night and may have posted without considering how you would react. I am inconsiderate that way sometimes. I didn't mean any harm.
No harm done. Not sure why you think you need to apologize. Nor did I react badly. Unless you did not read what I wrote? Or did not actually want an answer? Most likely the latter I guess.
Sorry I made you so angry. I understand why you get so angry and did not mean to provoke you. I will try not to do so in future.
I'm not angry Mark. Far from it. The box you imagine me in is big enough to let me want to be courteous. Thats all.
I read your post. I always do. You are highly entertaining, sometimes informative, always somewhat disdainful. As are most of the atheist posts. I feel that my posts to you guys go unread. But that's to be expected, I guess. It's hard to balance disdain and interest. Darn near impossible I would imagine.
What makes you think I do not read them? You have not and never do respond to my points. I n fact - you seem to miss my points completely.
I put it down to the teeny tiny box you have created for yourself, but - if it is some other reason - please feel free to explain it to me.
I must be honest and admit to disdain for people who put themselves in the tiny box you have chosen. Would you prefer if I was untruthful and pretended to respect your decision and irrational beliefs?
I mean - that seems to be your actual goal.
How about if I prefaced it with "IMHO"?
In my humble opinion - your beliefs are complete nonsense and your decision to limit your understanding so drastically is at odds with your statements. I attribute this lack of understanding to your decision to take the easy peasy non-answer you have taken and box your mind in so drastically that you think "god dunnit" is an acceprtable explanation for anything you do not understand.
I cannot imagine why you would have done this to yourself and I guess my interest is seeing if I can affect that decision.
Seems you already have all the answers - so looking rather unlikely at the moment.
I'm a little confused by the god dunnit argument. What's that about? I agree with you on most points of reality, I just think there is more. How is this a teeny box? I am allowing for a great many more possibilities than you are. I have never said I have an answer to anything, just a curiosity on all things. There are no absolutes in my world, not yet. Absolutes are for tired old men, smoking cigarettes in dusty old bars. I'm in search of light. Not ready to sit down with those guys just yet.
I don't know that your posts have ever come off as humble. I could be misreading your intent.
Yes - I understand that you think you have not put yourself in a tiny box. How are you allowing for more possibilities exactly?
I cannot beehive you are asking that question. Do you really not see? I do not have answers. Neither do you. You are checking a box off that I believe is still open for question.
Search the universe. Search your mind. Search your heart. Rule nothing out until you know for sure. That's my motto.
I see yours as limited to two. Maybe it isn't. Maybe you have reached the point where the world is let to only absolutes. If so, I'll spot you the money for a pack of cigarettes. You'll need it. I believe them to be expensive these days. I'll even buy your first round.
Aww - back to condescending I see.
I must admit - I am impressed at your capacity for self deception. It is a shame really.
You did not answer the question either. How is "god" any sort of answer to anything?
There was no question. You said he god dunnit. Done what exactly?
Still avoiding the question - good for you.
Glad you no longer think there is "something we cannot see" and the answer is "god".
Mark, it has been my experience that when think I understand a question from an atheist and answer it, I am broadsided by a disdainful response because I didn't answer the question they were asking. Be specific, and I'll specifically give you something to laugh at.
God is not an answer to me Mark. He is an important question. Because I am willing to ask the questions I am open to more possibilities. Anyone who says they know all about God, or anything for that matter, is probably selling something and should be held with high suspicion.
So funny that you have managed to convince yourself of this.
This is why your religion causes so many fights.
Love the banter Mark. Wish I could stay, but I've got to earn a living. We shall cross blades again my little friend. Perhaps, one day I shall be forced to fence with my good hand.
Please don't feet too flustered by his responses.
Atheists often miss the point, just to evade facing the real issue at hand.
They can be more slippery that eels.
They make EXCELLENT politicians!
What is the real issue dj?
What point have I missed?
I have NO idea what point you missed.
I am speaking of many past experiences. Times when you (deliberately) missed the point.
Happens all the time.
Sometimes it's fun, other times, frustrating.
I never ignore them either - unless they are so inane as to not be worth responding to. Like youtube videos of majik. Those I usually ignore.
"Compelling evidence" I think you called it.
You DID miss that point.
Thanks for pointing it out to me.
The compelling evidence was NOT the youtube video.
I will let you figure the rest out. Let me know when you get the actual point.
Seeing as you specifically said the video was compelling evidence when you started your thread??
I get the point pretty well dj. Religion rots your brain and you are so busy fighting about your religion, you cannot remember what you say from one day to the next.
Pretty strong point and very well made.
I must be really dumb, huh?
Please tell me what the point was.
Don't just copy and paste. You ridicule others for resorting to this same thing.
The point was - you presented a video from youtube and called it "compelling evidence".
You now say that the video was not compelling evidence and accuse me of missing the point.
Sorry for the cut and paste. Presenting actual evidence must be very annoying to you. These are your words.
It might be worth considering this - not that I am missing the point - but - maybe, just maybe - you are not being clear when you say things. Seeing as you are directly contradicting yourself here?
You have said NOTHING yet.
Just going around the same jargon.
When you get the point, please let me know.
In the mean time, don't waste my time. Please
Hey dj. They always make me laugh when they blame is for fighting about religion. The only arguments I see on this site are when an atheist sneaks up behind an unsuspecting believer. I guess they figure if they keep talking in circles it will somehow make sense.
Wasting your time huh?
How is that possible? Seeing as you are going to live forever? Surely this is yet another contradictory statement?
Perhaps your "logic" is beyond mere mortal understanding.
That was actually a good comeback. You are funny, when you're in the zone.
RE wasting time. I only have time in this body/world, and just like you I only have so much of it. I live in a 24hr world too!
No contradiction here!
On the "logic", you are getting warm.
Keep working at it. It just might come to you.
Oh I get it just fine dj. You think you have something special that makes you better than me. I know. Sadly this is a delusion that invariably makes you behave this way and cause a fight.
I do keep forgetting that you do not do irony. The "logic" you are using is actually "irrational nonsense."
At least you now admit that this eternity you plan on living for has no basis in reality, which is a step in the right direction. Don't actually believe it - do ya? How funny.
but how do we know he is NOT more special than you??
Perhaps he is. Be polite not to say so though.
Where is my money?
tied up in a Libyan bank.. f!$%@%@^^ dictator he is!
I transferred it from Egypt the other day because I was worried it was at risk with the turmoil....
who would have guessed Libya would be next.
I promise you as soon as things settle down there, I will transfer the funds over to you through my banker in Lebanon
This is a good example of how you come back, when you have NOTHING.
Since it's the same ole drivel, I dismiss it out of hand. Sorry.
Of course I have something dj. You are the one with NOTHING. If you actually believed you were going to live forever - you would not be even slightly concerned about wasting your time.
Of course I am dj. I know you think everything I say is drivel and you dismiss it out of hand.
Little wonder your religion causes so many wars.
Wrong yet again.
You really are all over the place. (Call me unstable??)
No - I did not call you unstable. Obviously we are having a communication issue. I suggest you re-read the thread and you will see you keep contradicting yourself and mistaking what I say for things I did not say.
Good job on avoiding the real questions though. Well done. Now you do not need to question your irrational statements.
Just remember - the youtube video you said was "compelling evidence" is not really compelling evidence of anything. On that we agree.
Was that you that said my Moma dresses me funny?
Or was that me that said that about somebody ???
Up and down. Still not smoking and lost the weight I gained when I quit, but bouncing around work-wise.
How are you doing?
I just started a new life !
Everything is different, but I'm in the same place.
I have to agree with you.
We ARE definitely having a communication issue.
One day you may get on the same page as me, I don't know, but I won't hold my breath.
As I stated before, when you get the point of the video, let me know.
Oh, again, I have to agree with you, that raising anyone from the dead is "irrational nonsense".
That's why these things are often referred to as miracles, (which obviously don't have a place in an Atheists worldview).
Highly unlikely I will start believing complete garbage because I am scared of dying. So - we will probably never be on the same page.
I get the "point" of the video. Complete nonsense dj.
How very divisive your religion is dj. I wonder if you can see that? Probably not huh? All my fault for not getting with your program I suspect.
Shall I bring up that British issue again?
You just won't let certain things ride, will you? When all else fails, bring up the war issue. Oh, please. GMAB.
I can see how you fuel the flames of war yourself, with these empty, and really stupid, accusations.
Be assured of one thing. I am not the Pope, and I will not be sending anyone to war. Not in this lifetime.
I'm starting to think you have a bit of a bigot in your inner self, that likes to show it's ugly head from time to time.
So - you do not see how divisive your religion is? You accuse me of "not getting the point" not "being on the same page" with you , not understanding anything and causing the fight when I am simply responding to you.
You are the one proclaiming nonsense as reality and shouting at me for not believing.
You are the one getting upset that I do not believe the rubbish you believe.
You are the one constantly attacking scientific facts.
Your religion is divisive.
Bring up the British issue all you like. I am not the one starting these arguments.
Doing what your religion always does.
Causing division and conflict.
I'll have to ask you to apologise to the Aborigines for dispossessing them of their land.
It's your nationality that did it.
It's your political and cultural association with them.
It was your ancestors.
You are the one doing exactly the same thing as your religion did in the past.
Not people in the past.
So are you.
You see, you are incapable of letting the religion forum run as a religion forum.
You are FAR more militant in here that just about anyone.
Nearly all the "religionists" are gone from here. I'm sure this is exactly what you want to happen.
Whenever you come to a "dead end" so to speak on a thread, you throw these (and again I will call them stupid) accusations, because you have nothing further to add to the discussion.
It fuels emotion with many people, but I'm not one of them. It's called turning the other cheek, or something.
I'd rather you stopped using this tactic, but don't expect you ever will. Sad, Very sad. An intelligent man such as yourself stooping to such childish rhetoric.
I know you well enough by now, to just roll with the punches. It can actually be fun , and educational. I'm learning more and more about atheist behaviour. Fascinating!
You think this is turning the other cheek?
That was my attempt at irony.
I must admit, I'm not too good at it.
Sarcasm always woks better for me.
At last we agree. You do not actually turn the other cheek. No so-called Christians do. They just stand and fight.
Of course. But - I am not the one claiming to be a Christian and saying I turn the other cheek.
Mark, you just don't get the turn the other cheek comment apparently. That's ok. There's always hope.
Ahh - Back to condescending. That did not take long.
I am not attempting condescension. You attribute too much to a simple statement. I am simply saying that turning the other cheek is not meant to imply anyone should feel the need to lie down and let someone else tap dance on their back. In my opinion.
Maybe this is simply a case of miscommunication. How do you interpret the saying?
I don't interpret it to mean anything other than what it actually says. Only Christians change the meaning to suit them selves. You obviously do not get that. That is OK. There is always hope.
Ok. But you belief it means over and over and over. And then over again. In the same conversation, or the continuation of a conversation? I can't wrap my head around that. You probably should have been born in the second century. Been a priest, or whatever they called themselves. You probably could have ensured the demise of the belief back then with that concept.
I'm not kidding here. That sounds too far fetched to believe you are serious. If that's truly what it means, and I know you said you were a Christian at one point, and you followed that. Wow. I hope you didn't run into any testy atheists.
I'm so sorry, but either way, I can't be that way. I think to ask it would be a burden any moral authority would consider impossible to carry.
I agree. The bible is indeed complete nonsense that has to be "interpreted," to mean what you want it to mean. It is not possible to follow it in any way. Hence the wars, competing "interpretations" and inability of self professed Christians to become Christ-like.
Are we getting it yet?
Gawd you believers are slow sometimes.
But Mark. Something being open for interpretation isn't always a bad thing. Unless you want it to be. It's the wanting it to be a bad thing that causes wars, and contention.
I don't care what anyone believes. I agree with the Jewish mystics that say the Bible is a level of creation, as we are. Every level of creation is infinite in variety. Put the infinite variety of the Bible into the infinite variety of humans, let them each put that infinite variety into the infinite variety of the individual mind. Of course everything will be processed differently.
Since you chose not to process the message your reaction is to be expected. I like it. It's different and makes me think, but I have to give leeway to others also. Oh, and I also am destined to always fall short of the mark I set for myself. If I don't, I'm aiming too low.
Let us then ignore the problems caused by the bible being both open to interpretation and at the same time the perfect word of god then.
That way you can cling to your absolutes, and at the same time claim not to understand why anyone would hold absolutes. No contradictions here, moving along now.
Are we seeing the cognitive dissonance yet?
I realize that - as a Christian - you do not have to hold yourself to standards you can keep to. That is the problem.
Pity you are choosing not to process the message in order to defend your absolute, untenable beliefs that you do not hold.
Ok. Testy testy this morning. I get your stand, to some extent. I honestly see my only absolute as belief in the fact that there is something out there. I think this may be why I, personally, roll around. I guess if I thought I knew everything as fact I could be firmer in my actions. I honestly don't know anything much beyond my experience that tells me there is something more.
I don't know any other way to act, other than being open and honest. Which tends to make me appear flaky, since I don't have a clear path to follow, that I can see.
But when I am open and honest I am being testy and "not getting it?"
No one has a clear path to follow. Your mistake is thinking that there is one that you can have handed to you on a plate.
Why don't you make your own path instead of labeling your self "christian" claiming a belief in god and "interpreting" wot god sed to mean something other than what it actually says.
The fact that you saw or experienced something you do not understand is no good reason for believing in Invisible Super Beings.
I never really understood why people have to have an answer to anything they do not understand. Nor do I understand why "god dunnit" is an acceptable answer for them.
I can say "I don't know" - why do you need to have an answer for a question you do not even know?
Ok, I do wish you wouldn't type with silly spelling of things. I agree that labels are counter productive and impede the search. I think since I have labeled myself Christian I have actually moved away from understanding, not towards it. This is, I believe, more because I just may not be looking inwardly hard enough to find the truth I seek.
I don't have answers. I have questions. I believe questions to be an important thing in advancement of knowledge. I cannot process the idea of a world that stops here. I realize my experiences are not a valid argument to anyone but myself. As your experiences suffice as your argument.
I appreciate all the questions you present, with the exception of the belief that there is nothing beyond this plane. I can't process that.
What questions do you have?
No - my experiences are not my argument. These are valid only to me. My argument - for example - that your religion causes wars is backed up by plenty of evidence.
It is hard to accept that one day - you will not exist.
Why, I would have thought it harder to accept that one day you may stand in judgement, than to have thought it hard to not exist.
Nihilism is simplistic to say the least, our problems only start when we recognise that just maybe we are part of something bigger that we have no real idea about, but which may affect us eternally.
If anyone could prove that once we died there was nothing, it would be like lighting the blue touch paper, but with nowhere to withdraw safely to..... all hell would break loose!
No - the idea of a judgmental Super Being is so far fetched it is not even funny. IN any case - I am good to go. And judgmental Super Being that would judge me badly for not believe the nonsense you spout is not a Being worth of the name and I would prefer eternal obliteration.
Of course we are a part of something bigger than ourselves. Making up childish "majikal" explanations is where the problems start. The fact that you say you have no idea about it - and then run around threatening me with judgment is also pretty funny.
So you are good to go, provided that to go means oblivion and NOT standing before a God who judged you, fairly (in His opinion) or badly (in your opinion).
But if you find yourself standing there, then it will be His opinion that counts.
Ever considered that YOU may not actually have a say in this?
I am not threatening you with judgement, you don't believe in God or the bible so there can be no threat made about something you insists is 'magic' and impossible and refuse to accept exists.
So, in your opinion, what is there that is bigger than ourselves and why are we so insignificant that despite the fact that we would not exist if even ONE factor of our planets existence changed, we are here, with thinking minds and the ability to create things, albeit only from materials supplied to us, but still to create.
Maybe when someone creates something from nothing I would listen to your polemic, until then you are just another voice in cyberspace exercising your God give rights to be wrong.
Just for you Mark....