We are the children of God through GRACE, which is a participation of the divine life in our soul. We lost this through our original sin. But LORD JESUS CHRIST restored it for us by dying on the cross. But despite all these sacrifices LORD JESUS CHRIST has done for us to save us from sin, WHY THERE ARE STILL SOME PEOPLE DON'T BELIEVED IN HIM?
Thats a very nice stpry but unless you can demonstrate it to be true then I have no reason to believe that it is true.
Why aren't you a muslim?
Two questions- What divine life? and What soul? are you talking about?
The rest of your post tells me you've lived too long inside one book.
I believe that Jesus probably actually existed and was a teacher who passed on the teachings of John the Baptist and belonged to a sec of healers. We heard the numerous people he "healed" but not the ones that he failed to. As far as being the son of God, no buying it. Nothing was written about him till about 30+ years after he died by biographers who never met him. It seems like he went from being executed for "claiming to be the King of the Jews" (only the Roman Emperor had the authority to appoint the king of the Jews. Anyone saying otherwise would be guilty of treason, punishable by death. So much for the story of Herod killing every male 2 years and younger when Jesus was born. Jesus was never a threat to begin with) to dying for our sins. The story of Jesus compares to the stories we all heard of the actions of Jessica Lynch. These wild stories went crazy through the media even while she was a POW by writers who weren't there or interviewed her. Then later proved to be untrue by Jessica herself.
Actually, Matthew and John were, in fact, Jesus' disciples whom Jesus taught for three years. The Gospel of Mark was compiled from Peter's experiences. (Peter, or Simon, was another disciple of Jesus.) These men personally knew and associated with Jesus. As for the lateness of the writings, these accounts were in orallly transmitted until they were eventually written down. Jesus may or may not have been an actual threat to King Herod, but Herod nevertheless considered him a threat. When the Magi (or wise men) came looking for Jesus, Herod commissioned them to bring word back to him "so that [i] may worship him also", but he actually intended to kill him. When the Magi failed to return (having been warned in a dream not to), Herod, no doubt covering his bases, simply had every child under 2 in Bethlehem killed. You don't have to take my word for this, it's all in the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) which as I stated before, are mostly first-hand accounts.
That's the problem, the Gospels. Physical evidense versus oral Biblical stories.
You might try reading the book "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. He might be able to explain these things better than I can.
Unfortunately, Strobel fails miserably to explain anything as his one and only tactic is drama as opposed to objectivity.
I believe in him as being a real person in history, and among a long list of great teachers that appear at the needed times throughout history. As you suggest, no. As a person and teacher with great wisdom shared, yes.
If I was born an Australian aboriginal how could I believe in Christ?
Hearing by the Word of God; without a preacher how can they hear. Witness!
They already have the Dream Time and have had for 40,000 years. They don't have the need for an upstart 6,000 year old belief system.
If one thinks the truth they know is one everybody should know, then the ivory tower has grown too immense and there is narry a way down.
Then thank goodness Aboriginals don't have towers.
Why does your single Hub exhibit complex and correct English grammar and vocabulary, and yet your post here displays multiple basic language errors?
People do or don't believe in Jesus for their own reasons. Either they have never been exposed to his teachings, or they have lost faith in him, or they just choose to believe something else or follow a different path. Whatever the reason, it will be personal and individual, and each person will have their own reason which they do not need to explain or defend to anyone else.
Because God in his divine wisdom, gave every mortal with a soul choice, and we make the choice to believe in whom we choose. If this means you find a personal spiritual connection with Christianity? That is fine, if you find being Buddhist or Hindu or you choose not have have a defined religious idendity? That is all fine, freedom of choice is that that.
So perhaps what you need to understand? IS that people are doing as they were told to do, by divine providence, they are making up their own minds to choose what makes them happy.
There are many people who do not accept Thor or Zeus as their lords and saviours. It all depends on where and when someone is born as to which deity they believe in. Gods come and go, and are replaced by new ones. And then the old ones are forgotten. But there will always be a lord and saviour of one kind or another. Humans need them. Although it is perhaps a little sexist that we have no lady and saviour.
Innana, a wonderfully feisty goddess, was considered to fulfil the role of a saviour.
I've just looked up this goddess, never having heard of her before. It seems the ancients had more of a sense of equality when it came to their gods, whilst now the main relgions only have male gods. Perhaps it is time to create new gods, because we have had the ones we have now for a considerable time.
We all have a choice without people forcing religious 'mumbo-jumbo' down your throat. No wonder Christianity is dying a slow painful death
I dont know about you but I cant choose what I believe. If something is unbelievable then I cannot believe it.
Did you know there is a direct correlation between a countries average IQ and a countries level of religiosity?
Higher IQ relates to lower religiosity. I would expect that the more intelligent we get as a species, the less religious we will be.
That's just silly. There is no correlation between the average IQ in a country and the percentage of religious. Where did you come up with that one?
That is real statistic. People of a higher IQ tend to avoid religion.
Not all people of a higher IQ, but there are many that don't.
Not according to the statistics I'm eyeballing on the internet right now. He is talking about the average IQ of the citizens of a given country. Being religious doesn't mean people of a country are less intelligent.
EiQ is more important
Cagsil is almost right about IQ
Out of 6 groups tested for IQ in Canada
Christianity place 5th which beat the Twins group
I'm still not buying it. The problem with those types of comparative tests is that they are usually done to support an agenda. It's quite easy to manipulate when using a small sampling of the population. I'm always leery of statistical data for that exact reason. We can all locate a study that proves our point.
Sorry Emile, but these studies were all performed in an unbiased way. In the original 2008 study by intelligence researcher Helmuth Nyborg, they examined whether IQ relates to denomination and income, using representative data from the National Longitudinal Study of Youth, which includes intelligence tests on a representative where they have also replied to questions about religious belief. It was found that those with higher IQ were not religious. This prompted other studies which compared religious belief and average national IQs in 137 countries. All of the studies showed that those who did not believe in religion on average scored 6 IQ points higher than those who adhering to a religion.
Several Gallup poll studies of the general population have also shown that those with higher IQs tend not to believe in religion.
If you find that hard to accept, then you should look into the God gene, where in 2005 geneticist found a defective gene (VMAT2) which predisposes some people towards religion. It is very similar to how some people are predisposed and attracted to alcoholism (where the defective gene is arylslfatase A).
EQ is only more important if you are measuring social ability.
IQ is more important if you are measuring problem solving and cognitive abilities.
They are both similar means for testing different things.
Well, I thought the correlation was with education - the more educated, the less belief.
But regardless, it is just a statistic and it might just be that smarter or more educated people are more willing to state their lack of belief rather than being afraid of being "different".
It should also be obvious that the unintelligent aren't going to think about this sort of thing and indeed lack the ability to follow logical arguments, so you'd expect them to just believe whatever they have been taught.
I am a life long atheist with an extremely high IQ and I do NOT believe that any correlation is real. Religion comes from emotional need, not rational thought.
If you told me that fundamentalism decreases with intelligence/education, I would agree. Any other claim I would suspect.
I would agree that the higher the level of education, the less belief in religion.
"Religion comes from emotional need, not rational thought."
Probably true, but could you not also say that a lack of religious belief often comes from rational thought irregardless of emotional need?
Religiosity comes from wanting to fit in. "A fly will often look at another fly and say "Now that is the right one to hang out with", Then they will go and hang out, while other flies join the crowd". I am paraphrasing a little but that is the jist of religious belief.
Yes, among other emotional needs as well. A need to be cared for, watched over, protected, and above a need to never die. Most people have one or more of these same needs.
All of which can be over-ridden by rational thought. The need won't go away, but the actions derived from the need will.
Sure. But not everyone can overcome the emotion.
Oh, absolutely! Otherwise, none of those capable of rational, reasoned thought would ever believe and we know that not to be true.
Some prefer to live primarily by emotion, some don't care that their belief system is not rational, and many simply put on a facade of belief in order to gain friendship or other "people" contacts.
Nevertheless, I think that in general we see that educated, intelligent people have a lower degree of religious belief simply because they can reason reason rationally. Plus, of course, the education teaches us about the world around us, removing much of the emotional needs for religion based explanation ("Are the gods throwing lightning?")
Yes, but, rationality can never entire remove the possibility of a creator.
That's where most of the religious, agnostics and even some atheists stop thinking. "You can't prove there wasn't a creator!" is the battle cry (or the whimpered admission, in the case of atheists) but few go on to realize that a creator could be the conscious or accidental act of a physicist - we might be accidentally creating other Universes with our particle physics experiments!
Even if they do understand that, very few will take the next step of realizing that a complex being can ONLY be the product of simpler parts - it can't be homogenous. Therefore, it either evolved as we did or it accidentally assembled and in neither case is it "supernatural" or deserving of worship - even if it is some insane creature who thinks so itself!
It has to be a natural product of whatever physics it lives in - ours or some other, it doesn't matter. It can't be omni-anything, it can't be a "god" in any reasonable sense of the word.
Unfortunately, I agree with you. I say unfortunately, because I would love to be able to recapture the magic of seeing the world through religious eyes, rather than seeing it for what it is.
I have read many reports which show a link between religion and IQ, and it doesn't surprise me. However, few societies, in my experience rely entirely on logic. Even our politicians call upon their gods in public arenas, perhaps in the hope of appearing to be good people in the eyes of the voters. And if someone goes against the flow, by declaring their atheism, it often results in the necessity to counter accusations that they are being influenced by the devil. Sometimes, it is easier to go with the flow, rather than admitting to a lack of faith.
I sometimes wish I could fit in, but I can't. I like everyone else, am an individual and I can only see the world with my eyes. This is the problem with seeking something, it is a treasure to the seeker only. By seeker, I mean individual perception.
So, the average IQ of Italians is 102 and Italy is 91% Christian. What is the IQ of the average Englishman? It should be higher. But my chart shows it at 100. Why is that?
100 is actually not all that terrible. Lower IQ = lower self image = more people to follow other than what one knows as true.
That wasn't the point. (Although, let's be honest. 100 is just average.) JWH said that there was a direct correlation between the average IQ of the citizens of a country and the level of religiousity. If there are more people who are devoutly religious in Italy than in Great Britain and the average citizen has a higher IQ in Italy, it shows his statement is untrue. Unless he was implying that those with religion have higher IQs. But, I doubt that's what he meant.
Italy does have an unfair advantage..They have the Vatican.
But "devout" is different than simple belief.
I think it is probably true that religious fervor decreases with intelligence and education, but even then there are outliers - very brilliant people who exhibit really deep beliefs that most would consider to be at least odd.
A great example: Larry Wall, the creator of Perl. A brilliant man and very, VERY religious.
The truth is, most truly intelligent people are nuts. Of course I must say that we're all a little crazy, but then also so are many of the faiths we cling to.
There is a difference between cunning and intelligent people
If a person is claiming to be very intelligent it is most likely they are nuts
Well, it makes sense that those who are not intelligent would think that those who are would be nuts.. if you can't follow the reasoning, of course you'd think it's crazy-talk.
That's why it's very hard for any of us to recognize the intelligence of someone else unless it is lower than our own or just slightly higher. If it's much higher, we'll think they are nuts or at least highly irrational.
You are more intelligent than me in some areas in life and I am more intelligent than you in other area's. If someone calls me a BS-er in a area that I have mastered most, it's most likely they do not understand and over reacting. If a person claiming to be more intelligent in all areas over you or I . They would be acting irrational, and I would not say the whole person is Irrational, maybe in some odd rare case some person could be mentally or emotionality ill.
When one religion claims intelligent in design and all spirituality
To me it seems insane to claim to be all and end all for any one group, Each and every person on earth dose not understand the Whole 99% unknown world and Universe in the first place, as it lacks reason.
Dimwitted or not, I am the same as you and these social distinctions do not change the fact that we are all human.
#1. Statistics are lies, we can make any slant we want.
#2. It is a personal Choice, Elizabeth asked in badly formed English why people do not follow Christianity. I don't think she wanted to be slammed or that she is even reading what is being said.
#3. I know the rhetoric that is more flotsam than anything else has me un-following this thread, and I love how people have taken over my thought of Free Thought and Free Will to prove their own point, which in a sense is why people choose what they wish to be their personal truth.
#4. By the way? Absolute rubbish on IQ to religion, while I have met people in Mensa who are devotedly religious, I have met others who are not. I work with people from MIT and Princeton who are deeply religious and others who are not, it is the choice no matter if you are 75 or 175, it comes down to what you want in this world and how you go about getting it.
But to go back to the original post: I know that if such a person ever lived at all, he was only one of many wandering preachers. The Christian church needed a Messiah, so they created one.
I can admire the philosophy attributed to him while still doubting the accuracy.
And there my friend is your answer. The truth lies in words, not the religion. We love following aesthetics, they have oh so much to say.
Except none of it is "truth". It's the suggestions for living that are admirable. The rest of it is just religious gobbledygook-gook.
The words of nut's have more truth for they are not planned. Almost all people plan what they are going to say, crazy people don't. They just say it.
That doesn't make it truth. "Love thy neighbor" is good advice. "Kingdom of Heaven" is just silly nonsense. No truth.
What you are missing is that what is true for may only be truth for me.
Truth is not absolute. Truth and fact are 2 different things. People see truth and think of it as fact. Nothing I read is true if it is factual and vice a versa. By this, I am saying that the reallity of things is subjective to the observer.
There is fact and there is personal truth and narry in the middle shall they meet.
There are some truths which are absolute. For instance, it is true to say that the Earth orbits the Sun and not the other way around. This is not subjective. It is true because it is a fact. What religious people often refer to as truth refers to their interpretation of facts in order to fit their religious beliefs.
I'm speaking of personal truth as opposed to fact. Yes it is a fact that the earth rotates around the sun, it is personal truth that God exists. This is the distinction between fact and truth.
There is no such thing as a personal truth. That's pure ego talking.
Truth is truth.
It's pointless to debate this with people of closed mind. I think that you like to argue because it makes you feel good. Now this is a personal truth for me.
This why I say that the truth is subjective. I see spiritual truth, the way I see it and no nay sayer will change my mind.
Good day sir.
That which is true or in accordance with fact or reality
It cannot be different for different people therefore it is objective.
Why is it ONLY religious people claim it is subjective?
No, it is the distinction between fact and fantasy.
Don't need to. I like to philosophize and if you don't like it, go to another thread. This is a place for chatting and that is what I am doing. I will move on when I am ready.
I never claimed to be religious, in fact, I am not religious and whether or not I am is of little importance. I am just stating observations and while they are personal, they are only observations.
Try to be less critical when reading the words of an individual and you may gain whatever knowledge you seek. For you are obviously seeking something, or you would not read the text.
You think I'm seeking?
I'm not. As I have explained in many places, I am here to give voice for those who are unable or afraid to speak. I argue with the religious so that isolated atheists will know that there ARE other rational people in the world.
I "seek" nothing.
I do truly LOVE the implication that anyone entering a religious forum must be "seeking". How about just concerned about the lies? I have more reason, but that is reason enough.
Did you read what I said?
Did I start this thread? No, I didn't. If I had, that might be "trolling", but it still probably wouldn't be. Again, I respond to religious nonsense so that isolated and intimidated atheists can see that there are other rational people in the world who don't walk around pretending some Sky Daddy is watching their every move.
No, they aren't, they are objective because we can all agree on them.
Do you think gravity is subjective or can we all objectively agree on what will happen to objects in a gravitational field?
Again, you speek of fact rather than belief. What I am saying is that belief is subjective and therfor any truth found through belief, will then also be subjective.
You cannot find truth through belief. That "truth through belief" is a perfect oxymoron.
Just because some deluded person THINKS they have found truth does not mean that they have.
Exactly what I have been saying all along. That is the point of subjective reallity. There is to my knowledge, no objective believers. If I were objective in my belief, I would not be sure if I believed anything at all.
But atheists are not deluded. Religious belief IS delusion - mild and even beneficial in many cases, but still delusion.
It is all delusion. I have said it in many threads. Delusion is the illusion that we are in control. I am in no way, in anymore control of reallity as anyone else. I can only sit and observe, as everyone does. Whether it be a subjective or objective frame of mind.
Does this make sense?
I don't believe in God, but then again, neither am I an atheist. I am a midline walker or drifter in thought, if you will accept that.
I hear your concern. It has been this way his Adam & Eve rejected God in the Garden of Eden.
People aren't really interested in following Jesus/God for people want to go their own way and when it comes to following God that means people will have to take responsibility for our actions and so think of this in terms of a child. A child can go away from the house and have all these fun things to do like drinking under age, fighting, maybe breaking into a store but when they think about what their parents tell them "don't be hanging with that crowd they're just trouble." do they want to hear that-heck no they want to do their own thing.
The only problem there is, if God exists, he left the house. In that house are multiple books you all claim he left for the kids to use to stay in line with the family rules while he's away. Throw on top of that everyone in history who's claimed Dad called them and left a message. And everyone today arguing over what Dad said.
It seems to me the grown ups here are the ones following their conscience and doing what is right. Not the ones arguing over what Dad might have said.
Christians claiming we are bad and want to go our own way because we don't want God to guide us are just crying over sour grapes that everyone doesn't look to them for guidance. Considering the mess of things the religious have made of the world, I'm surprised you blame us for choosing to try to do better for ourselves than what your leadership has done.
Unfortionately God isn't like people and so he would love people inspite of the fact they they reject him, violate his commantments, curse him. Instead of saying all you ungrateful people desire to be wiped off the face of the universe I'm here to give you a second chance to come back to me and still people spit at his offer.
And that is what the religious continue to fail to understand. People don't spit at God. They roll their eyes at self righteous hypocrites that claim to speak for God, but don't conduct themselves any more morally than the rest of us; and many times worse.
Finally you are correct there are those of us who don't behave the way we should BUT that is no excuse for others to do likewise. The example is Jesus and his teachings. If we spent less time pointing the finger and more time moving in the spirit towards our fellow man life on this planet would be far better then it is today.
Actually I think God is like people. People are always putting human attributes on God. We are human, it's what we understand. In fact some people do love others that reject them. People give others second chances all the time.
People who don't believe in this brand of God or any God aren't rejecting it. They can't spit on or reject something that doesn't exist for them.
If God doesn't exist for nonbelievers no one is forcing them to believe.
Well some try to force but it doesn't matter because people will think what they want. Humans judge those who do and think differently.
God doesn't exist for believers and no one is forcing them to believe, either.
As a nonbeliever once again how would know anything about what a believer believes?
Duh.. you TELL us constantly?
Also, although I never was afflicted with this nonsense personally, many atheists were once believers and know fully well how foolish they were.
If you are a nonbeliever why then are so concerned with those that do believe-it's no skin off your nose?
Last I read, he claimed to be doing it for those poor delicate atheists that don't have the where-with-all or intestinal fortitude to actually stand up for what they believe. Or don't believe. I get confused on what the politically correct term for atheist beliefs is.
You think it's funny?
I don't. My wife actually thought she was mentally ill because she was surrounded by gawd-fearing people who kept insisting that she HAD to believe what they did or she would burn in hell. She was smart enough to realize that it had to be total nonsense, but she had no one - not one single person - who ever told her anything different.
That kind of isolation and intimidation can take its toll on anyone. She survived it and eventually did discover that others are rational and do not pray to imaginary beings.
Today, the Internet makes it possible for people like her to seek out others who can help them survive the cruelty they live with every day. THAT IS WHY I AM HERE and I see nothing amusing about it.
I think it's hilarious. You might have an underdeveloped sense of humor.
I've never quite understood why people can't stand up for what they honestly think. I guess the need to fit in overrides in some.
You think it is funny to tell a child who is too smart to believe nonsense, who CANNOT believe the nonsense, that they will burn in hellfire because they do not believe?
You think that's funny?
Do you know much she wanted to believe? Do you know how scared she was? How intimidated, isolated, how alone?
No, you don't. I do, because she told me all of it.
Actually, chameleons say what people want to hear. I don't have any sympathy for those who claim to know something, but say they wanted to believe something else. I don't trust them either. Because, they could simply be saying what they think I want to hear. I prefer the truth.
I can't parse that paragraph at all. I have no idea what you are trying to say.
People lie. Chameleons stay with something because they either like it, or want to fit in. When they find themselves in another situation, the same thing holds true. You are welcome to have sympathy, but I don't, for someone who claims poor pitiful them. The only thing I find pitiful are people who don't stand by their beliefs. Anyone who claims they were abused by religion fits that category
You are making me very angry.
Maybe you are incapable of understanding how a young child who is far too intelligent and rational to believe in Sky Daddy nonsense would feel when they are surrounded by people who all insist that not only is this ridiculous idea true, but that the child will burn in hell because they are unable to accept that 'truth".
We are not talking about an adult. We are talking about a child of seven or eight being threatened in this way. It is deeply disturbing and she did not even know that other atheists existed until she was well into her teens.
That you are incapable of sympathy says much about you.
Pcunix, no one else "makes you angry." You allow yourself to be angry because of the circumstances OR you look inside of yourself and understand your anger. Then you can become master of your life, instead of depending on the influence of others.
Although I do not accept any of the dogma about a son of god being raised from the dead, I do think that the message of that person we call Jesus was just about this: looking inside of our "self" for the answers to life.
I hear a lot of things from people. Doesn't make them true.
They say your delusions are as important to your happiness as is your reality. I'm sure you desperately want to believe anything bad anyone tells you about religion.
You aren't getting that from me. I think there is a lot of good in religion and will disagree strongly with anyone who says religion is evil.
Some people are evil, and some of them are religious. Religion is the excuse, not the cause.
Don't try to put opinions on me that I do not hold.
I've read your posts. I think, my assessment is valid and supported strongly by a pervading thread of animosity in your replies which is usually unwarranted.
Don't get me wrong. We all have opinions that are born of delusion. I would never advocate denying you yours.
It is best to see the humor in all things, but not at the expense of others. He who is mean recieves meanness. The religious folk that act the way they do, will one day pay for their mistakes. It is called Karma and it is accepted in many circles of thought.
Realism without the existance of a ruler deity. It's the best I can do.
No one in their right mind would ever accept an offer from anyone who would wipe them off the face of the earth if they didn't take it.
Your concept of fun certainly does differ from anything I would consider or any kid I know.
Is that the kind of fun believers grow up to embrace? If so, you may want to reconsider your religious beliefs.
some people don't believe in jesus christ
Jesus was a truthful messenger of the Creator God; Jesus was not a god or son of god; those who don't believe in his being a truthful messenger of the Creator God; they should believe in him like one should believe in Jonah; all truthful messenger of the Creator God should be believed in; the denial of one messenger means denial of every messenger as they all have been sent by Him- the Creator God..
Jesus is a good guy. He helped me fixed my parent's scanner today.
It is a personal choice if a person want to believe in a certain religion or not. While you may have reasons to believe that Christianity is the only right religion, others may have their own reasons or justification to believe that their religion is the right one. You cannot force your choice on others. Personally I have nothing against religious fanatics who are determined to prove every one else wrong as long as I am not their target. I don't think God made any religion. It is man who made it and I choose to believe in the God who has the three qualities - Omnipresence, omniscience and Omnipotence. I choose to believe that God is in every individual. I don't believe in humiliating or putting down any religion or individual but would like to accept the goodness of all religions. I believe in being a better human being first than run after any religion. But then that is my choice.
Not for me it isnt. I cannot force myself to believe something by choice.
If something is unbelievable, then I cannot believe it.
People believe what they want to believe, it's just that simple. No one has the right to force anyone else to believe anything they don't want to and no one needs to justify their beliefs to anyone else either.
You cant force someone to believe something. That is nonsense. If I think something is unbelievable, no amount of forcing can make me believe it.
I bet noone can force you to believe that santa is real.
But you can torment children by trying to force them. That's what happened to my wife, as I explained above. It was extremely cruel, but religious people don't ever think of that - they are "saving souls" no matter how many minds they are damaging.
Hmm. as I re-read Emile's last post, I think he's saying my wife is a liar. THAT makes me angry..
Yes you keep saying that you can't force yourself to believe something by choice, ok than it's your choice not to believe it. Nobody here is forcing you to believe something that you don't, are they? It seems to me that a lot of people are saying it's a choice to believe or not.
Santa did not come to me this year - does this mean he does not exist or was I just too naughty??
I lost a tooth also, but that was never swapped for a coin by the tooth fairy either!
Santa comes to you in your heart. If you love others and rejoice in spirit of giving, Santa always comes. Sometimes you just have to look a little bit harder to see him. Santa came to my house this year and gave my family the ability to provide donations to our local food bank and to volunteer for some much needed community service. We were also given the ability to donate many toys to the Toys for Tots this year too. So Santa was very generous to my family. At our house we measure what we have by what we can give to others. That's our personal Santa.
They refuse to believe him a god or son of god; they don't have any objection in believing him a simple human beings sent with message by the Creator God.
Really? I don't believe in any creator god and I think it is doubtful that this "messenger" ever existed - he certainly could not have existed as portrayed in the Bible.
From all the comments you've made about God being nonsense I have yet to see one shred of evidences from this prospective or thinking that believers are nothing but evil irrational people. Since p[eople say something is or something isn't then they should be able to prove that point-should they not. You can't go into a United State court room and say I find these people to be nothing but nonsense so lock them up. No, No you've got to do better then that.
As a believe I'm not asking you to prove your nonbelief system, if you don't believe then I say "keep on truck'n."
Where do you get this evil nonsense from? I never said any such thing. Nor did I say anything about "locking anyone up".
I said that I respect everyone's right to religious belief, religious practice and to teach their children their beliefs. I respect it and will defend it if needed.
Don't make stuff up.
I believe these were your words:
Pcunixposted 9 hours ago in reply to this
You think it is funny to tell a child who is too smart to believe nonsense, who CANNOT believe the nonsense, that they will burn in hellfire because they do not believe?
Calling something nonsense without the ability to proof it to be so doesn't make it so.
Common sense overrides nonsense. So please.
I agree, in theory. But children should not be threatened with an unprovable concept either. Parents and caregivers should show restraint with their personal beliefs when around kids. I don't think anyone believes children are anything but innocents, so why push hellfire? If you turned it into a movie it would be rated R or PG13. I think we would all agree that is inappropriate for children.
There is no proof. That is why. Why can't anyone show hard absolute proof? I only believe in things that I KNOW are real. The Bible has changed so many times to fit so many peoples desires and demands that I don't think anyone should read to much into it. And for religious answer: some people don't believe in god becasue god gave mankind free will.
I love the free will argument. It always makes me laugh.
Why? Free will is an absolute truth. I choose to do what I do, that is free will and I'm pretty sure God has nothing to do with it.
I bet you cant choose to enjoy the taste of sulphuric acid.
I cant choose to enjoy celery even though I would like to. Why is that? Where is my free will?
No one really wants to hear religious babble. Everyone is able to believe what ever they so choose, but it's people like you that cram it down peoples throat that piss people like me off. I CAN'T GO TO HELL IF I DON'T BELIEVE IN IT.....Or as an old friend of mine once said it's your hell you burn in it...Christianity has slowly becoming more and more of an occult as the words of the original bible continue getting twisted with every new version that comes out. (See the original non English version, and you will see what I mean)
So in the end please do us all a favor, hush if you want to believe in a fictious character that is up to you.
People that used to question the bible were either killed or excommunicated. This came from a quarry about why it only took 6 hours fro Jesus to die on the cross, when we know that it takes days. Even people that tried to be gentle about the subject were tortured or strangled for herracy.
It is a growing concensus, if you go to church, leave your brain in the parking lot. I tend to agree with that sentiment. The Hebrew word sheoul, actually means grave or sleep,this was mistranslated by the Greeks, so they mistook it to mean underworld. This is the problem with the modern believer, they think that the bible is litteral and they are not critical enough to question their pastor.
I questioned my Pastor for over 30 years while ignoring much of what I heard. Finally, between God and I the lights came on! Atheist say "show me in the natural world"; Born again Christians say "thanks God for showing what you have been talking about in my mind!"
It's a very personal experience. You have experienced or you have not. If not, than you don't have the foggiest idea what I am talking about.
Ask Jesus to come into your life sincerely, and you will learn what we so-called "crazy and ignorant" Christians are talking about.
I suppose if we wanted to be crazy and ignorant we could ask Jesus to come into our lives, but maybe some people don't want to be crazy and ignorant.
I do agree that there is much religious “babble” and folks attempting to “cram” their religious ideas down people’s throats. I’ve been there and done that to people as well. I regret every minute I did it and to this day wonder how I could have been so foolish. I feel that those who do that give the rest of the Christians who are actually open-minded and reasonable, a bad rap. The Christians who are logical, intelligent, and open-minded about what they think and believe, without feeling the need to be preachy and enforce their beliefs, are inevitably going to have to battle a stereotype in order to be respected first. I find this to be true in any situation.
And you are right. Far too many translations of the Bible have come out which distort the true meaning of the Bible as written in the Hebrew and Greek. It’s quite scandalous. I have read the Bible in its original Hebrew and Greek. it is in stark contrast to most “modern” versions I’ve read. But try to explain that to someone dedicated to their “translation” and the look of scorn I get is getting rather old. The truth is, if someone “likes” an interpretation, they will find reasons to defend it. I even had someone tell me that a particular Bible which elaborated in depth on the true meanings of the Greek and Hebrew words (as explained by Greek and Hebrew scholars) used in the Bible was simply a “paraphrase.” Which is ironic. Since it was written in Hebrew and Greek.
Anyway that’s my soap box.
"Whosoever harms a single hair on the head of one of these, my little lambs....it would be better had that person never been born. Just because someone believes in the bible, god or Jesus, doesn't mean they "get it". Says so. Pc....I got somethin' for ya. Everything is a manisfestation of energy...including consciousness. That is what E=MC2 means. If you think it means something else...enlighten me...I beg of you!!!
This is a very interesting topic and similar to one that I have made a hub about. I'm 50 years old and have been a Christian since I was 11 or 12 years old and it only makes perfect sense to me. I wouldn't want anyone to try to change my Christian views as I would not feel too comfortable trying to get anyone else to change their beliefs.I agree with the concept everyone's talking about free will because that's exactly what it says in the Bible. It's taken me a long time to accept the fact that not everyone is going to accept Jesus Christ and that's just the way it is. It even says that's true in the Bible and I believe it. I still wonder about this statement where someone mentioned people of a higher IQ don't believe in God and Jesus or religion, I have to say that doesn't make too much sense to me, oh well we can still be friends
<link snipped - no promotional links>
Jesus was not a god or son of god; those who don't believe in his being a truthful messenger of the Creator God; they should believe in him like one should believe in Jonah; all truthful messenger of the Creator God should be believed in; the denial of one messenger means denial of every messenger as they all have been sent by Him- the Creator God..
"Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, and seeing you will see and not perceive; for the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, and their eyes they have closed. Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them." Matthew 13:14 & 15 Many people will not accept the truth of the Bible because that would mean that they would have to take responsibility for their actions. I was raised in a strict religious household. I lived and still continue to live to this day among religious hypocrites who judge others continuously. While growing up, I attended church every time the doors were open. I am not currently attending a church because I have been in too many churches with priorities that are not synonymous with what I believe the early church encompassed i.e. love, fellowship and God's laws. I am constantly judged for not attending church, as if those people know my heart and my personal relationship with God. I have devotions and read my Bible. The early church met in homes or wherever they could - "For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them." but that doesn't seem to be good enough for the church goers of today. I could have become bitter and turned my back on God, but He never failed me, only the church failed me. I have witnessed things in my own life that are unexplainable. God has shown Himself to me in ways that cannot be explained away by science. To me, He just Is. I cannot deny Him. I believe that there is one God and only one, that Jesus is God's son, sent as a sacrifice to redeem us of our sins (bad choices stemming from free will) so that we can live with Him in a place He is preparing for those of us who love and trust in Him. I do not judge others on what they believe. I just choose to believe that we were created by a higher intelligent being out of love and not dust from an explosion, which would continuously be happening, over and over, if that were the case. A hope of heaven is better than no hope and nothing.
some ?...well some people is under statement...Majority is right word...
Well, I don't believe in Santa Claus,the Easter Bunny, or Greek mythology either. It is incredible that this fantasy has lasted as long as it has but I would never deny anybody their beliefs if it makes them feel better about life.
There are several reasons. Many are put off by judgmental Christians and being threatened. Some are rationalists and want scientific evidence. Others just don't want to do what is required of them as a Christian and that is complete obedience to the Holy Spirit.
We must not judge against others who are unable to believe in Jesus. Only God can truly know what is in the hearts of men.
I had my 18-year desert experience when I thought Jesus had deserted me and I couldn’t find a reason to believe in him.
No one knows what extreme trial their soul, while in heaven, have agreed to take upon themselves while on earth, for the sanctification of their individual spirit as well as for our collective spirit.
We need to ponder more on what Jesus meant when he said “the first will be the last and the last will be the first”.
There is hope as long as a person lives. The best thing a believer can do is to ceaselessly pray for the unbeliever and in deeds, imitate Jesus’ life where Love ruled supreme.
This is a question that I once asked the Lord. But it is true not all people will accept or believe in Jesus. The reason is that Jesus did not come to save the world, He died for the world but He came to save those that belong to the Father or who were predestined; John 17:6 says, I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept they word. People like to call Matthew 6:9-13 the Lord's Prayer but it is actually here in John 17:9 where Jesus says, I pray for them: I pray not for the "world" but for them which thous hast given me; for they are thine (read the rest of Chapter 17 of John). Verse 15 says, I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. Here Jesus does not pray for the world but only those who belonged to the father, in verse 20 Jesus also prays for those believers in the future to come. Once having this revealed to me by the Holy Spirit, I now am thankful to be a believer. I could have been one who would never believe like Pharaoh. Pharaoh during Moses time was destined not to believe in the Lord. God said that He used him to show His power strong. Also Judas, he was destined to betray Jesus else scripture could not be fulfilled. Jesus stated it would have been better if Judas was not born. One thing I have learned is to not to forced people to believe in Jesus or use scare tactics but pray and listen for the voice of the Lord concerning people. I do not see this as the Jesus or God being mean but He clearing the world of evil for the earth was made for man in the beginning and God never changes from His original plans when He created man and the earth.
Sunny, you just keep on doin' what you're doin' 'til your hearts content. Believe what you want to believe. Change your opinion whenever you like, it's your life.
I hope if there's a hell I will get there and have some fun which was denied me in this life, because some christian felt I needed to be denied fun and get sanctified.
This does not make me bad. I would no more consider doing ill to another person than you would, and this goes for most other people in this world. Believing in a god has nothing to do with it. In fact those that do profess a belief in a god have done more evil stuff to others than you bear thinking of. And they have tried to justify their actions by their interpretation of something written in the bible. Don't bother praying for me, you will be wasting your time.
Thank you for the nice comments you made guys. Please don't misinterpret me. I asked this kind of question to persuade everyone. and NO, I am not a Muslim. I am a true Christian. I asked this questions with a purpose. I've encountered someone, and we argued about Lord Jesus Christ. In their beliefs, Lord Jesus Christ is just an ordinary person, and he is one of us, a teacher as well. Although they know that Lord Jesus Christ is the MESSIAH. But they don't believe that Jesus Christ is the only son of the Father who became man to redeem the world. As according to him we are also the children of God. And it gives me idea to raise this question on this site. For me, personal faith in Lord Jesus Christ comes with social obligations. If we believe he reigns as Lord over his history a well as Lord over our lives with him or as our divine lives. Restricting his sovereignty to our personal struggles, as well as our agony. Cultivating our life, we must think about how Christ want us to respond to the difficult situations, but not to emphasize social concern without stressing devotion to the Lord, deeply committed on cause and not deeply committed to Lord Jesus Christ. We sometimes neglect what Lord Jesus Christ hath done for us, he didn't lost his life on the cross, he gave himself for our sins. He paid the penalty so that all who believe in him would not perish but have eternal life as what it says in Lord prayer.
According to the scripture, it says:
"Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our
Lord Jesus Christ."
"Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this
evil world, according to the will of God our Father in Heaven."
Galatians 1: 3-4
I hope I've explained everything with regards to this hub.
How about using the intelligence you have today in order to determine what is the right path of life for yourself to lead?
Why concentrate on the supposed writings of ancient peoples, about an obscure individual, who lived probably 2000+ years ago?
The laws and traditions of those people were applicable to those times in which they lived. We are quite capable of sorting out what is best for us in Today's conditions.
When you get stuck on ancient things, theorizing ad infinitum, arguing, mounting wars over disagreement, perpetrating all manner of cruelty, to justify your craving for beliefs, you belittle our intelligence.
Oh, by the way, we are gradually learning lots about the physical ways of our universe. There is still lots more to learn, but simple, pure logic tells us those reported miracles were figments of their imagination....what they wanted to believe.
some people don't believe in jesus
Those who deny Jesus; they do it mostly beacuse they refuse to believe mythical Jesus presented by Christianity that is god or son of god.
Jesus was a normal human being; I don't think anybody will not believe such a person.
some people don't believe in jesus...
They made a mistake; Jesus son of Mary was good person a messenger and prophet of the Creator God; he must be believed as such; god or son of god he never was so that should not be believed. Jesus himself did not believe that he was god or son of god.
I believe you are mistaken, Here are some Bible scriptures where Jesus does say that he and God are one in the same.
Some Bible Verses that say
“Jesus is God”
Some people claim to believe that Jesus was a “good prophet”, but they deny that Jesus is God. If that is you, I would like to encourage you to consider some of these Bible verses:
Matthew 1:23 - “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”
Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 43:10,11 - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.”
Revelation 1:17-18; Revelation 2:8 - (Jesus is the First and the Last)
Isaiah 44:6 - (God is the Redeemer)
2 Peter 1:1 (Jesus is the Redeemer) - “To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ”
Isaiah 44:24 - (God created the world by His self alone)
John 1:3; Colossians 1:16 - (Jesus made all things)
John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,
John 5:17,18 - “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” Therefore the Jews sought to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
John 5:23 - that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
John 8:24 - “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM He, you will die in your sins.”
John 8:58 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”
John 14:6-7 - Jesus said to him, “I AM the way, the truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”
John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”
John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
Acts 4:12 - “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
Acts 20:28 - (God purchased us with His own blood)
Revelation 1:5,6; Revelation 5:8-9 - (Jesus' blood purchased us)
Philippians 2:5-7 - Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men.
1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.
Titus 2:13 - looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ
Hebrews 1:8,9 - But to the Son He (God) says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
2 John 1:7 - For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Revelation 1:8 - “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Revelation 22:13 - “I AM the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”... 22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches.”
Hebrews 2:17,18 - “Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.”
Hebrews 4:15,16 - “For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.”
1 Peter 2:24 - “who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we having died to sins, might live for righteousness - by whose stripes you were healed.”
He went from sovereignty to shame and from deity to death? Why!? For you.
John 15:13 - “Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.”
Romans 5:8 - “But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Many have saccrificed themselve's for others. Why are they not on the pedestal? God moves through all or we wouldn't matter at all. I'm no longer a Christian for that very same reason. Religions are a trap for the mind and an easy way out, so to speak.
With all the beauty and visual miracles in the world, one just can’t seem to fathom how people still do not believe in God.
Our lives are so incredibly short that the majority of us will never reach Heaven. Even those who our saved continue to live their lives based on Earthly ideals and not Heavenly ones. The best way to describe today is the great age of denial. If we can not convince people that they are fat and unhealthy because of their diet but they will take a pill or surgery instead, how can you convince someone of the un-obvious. I could write the rest of my life on what this World is in denial of. Knowing how difficult it is to mature and grow spiritually has convinced me that Earth is nothing but a place of choices. In fact its only the message that is important and beyond the message it is the individuals responsibility to establish their personal relationship with God. All Christians should establish their lives and principles in a World of continuous souls that are lost in purgatory and only attempt to influence them with knowledge. I do not believe for a minute that anyone can take for granted that they are saved even when they think they are.
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