Stop Hate on Hubpages!

1. 60

   Isoldeposted 16 years ago

   I just finished reading several hubs on this site that have totally appalled me because they were all hubs of hate and prejudice.  One of them was an uncalled for rant against people with poor manners where the author directly stated that all those people were illegal immigrants, another was a hub that severely knocked single mothers, and yet another was one that was hyper-homopobic.  I refuse to name these hubs or their authors because I don't want to give them publicity for these hubs.
   
   I feel disturbed and hurt.  This community is a place where people can share ideas, writing pieces, and communicate across boundaries and borders.  People should feel safe here to express themselves and what they have to say, but they should not do so to the extent of spouting hateful and discriminatory hubs. 
   
   I encourage all hubbers out there to please, if you see a hub that you find offensive to the positive and communal spirit of this site, let the author know you disagree with their turning our community into a hate-water-cooler.

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   1. 65

      Ralph Deedsposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      I agree with you. However, in my experience, there is less of that kind of intolerant, hateful, ignorant stuff on HubPages than on many other sites. I haven't seen the Hubs you are talking about and would be interested in reading them and others by the authors.

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   2. 65

      gjcodyposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      I totally agree.  I picked hubpages because of its friendly community and to see the hate articles is just a sad thing.  I think there are other places for this type of language and opinions.  Lets keep our hubpages clean and a fun place for people to learn and share as I thought it was.  Lets be professional!!  Remember "two wrongs ..do not make a right"

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2. 90

   gamergirlposted 16 years ago

   Please make sure you report all these hubs to team@hubpages.com also - I feel bad for creating even more work for the team, but I think a more formal complaint warrants an email.

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3. 60

   darksideposted 16 years ago

   Hate for hates sake is wrong.
   
   However I'm not going to feel offended for illegal immigrants.
   
   But as I always say: I can't tolerate intolerance!

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      Uninvited Writerposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      Yes, but that post seemed to be assuming that ALL Mexican's are illegal immigrants. It's kind of funny because the post described modes of dress and attitudes that European's have described in American tourists for years...right or wrong

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   2. 69

      thranaxposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      I also will not feel offended for illegal immigrants. If it is about illegal immigrants they aren't a race and the problem does need to be addressed.
      
      I don't like hating for the reason just to hate, its wrong and uncalled for. Anything that attacks a persons rights in an unlawful public presentation is wrong.
      
      But if your hating an illegal immigrant I am all for it, the laws are there for a reason. There is a difference in being raciest and being a nationalist for your country.
      
      The only way this Hub about illegals should be closed is if there is evidence in the Hub about racism or nationality.
      
      I'll say it now and say it proud, all illegals get out of my country, you don't belong here and you make it worse for the citizens of the country. All immigrants who came here legally, welcome and hope you enjoy it here.

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4. 76

   Shadesbreathposted 16 years ago

   I hate haters and hate that this kind of hate is allowed.

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   1. 59

      seohowtoposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      ::)))

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5. 60

   GK16posted 16 years ago

           

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6. 90

   gamergirlposted 16 years ago

   Looks like I missed the hub in question, but it stinks of "publicity stunt" and "shock news" to me.  *shrug*
   
   I won't be reading any of that particular individuals hubs, that's for sure.

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7. 61

   Marian Swiftposted 16 years ago

   I don't know the hubs in question, but from the sound of it, they're well worth flagging.

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   1. 81

      VioletSunposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      I think the one on the illegal aliens was either taken down by the writer or hubpages as I can't find it. It made my heart literally ache in seeing the ugliness of a few comments that were very racist, but was also pleased to see a large percentage of the hub community members not support the racism. I left a comment, but will never, ever participate in any hate bashing hub again, will flag it instead.

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      1. 67

         Rookie Expertposted 16 years agoin reply to this

         I dont know what hubs are being talked about and dont even care to find them. I concur! Flag them people.

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8. 88

   Paragliderposted 16 years ago

   I saw them and agree they were inappropriate and unpleasant. However, the worst I've seen was an ill-informed anti-Islamic rant which went so far as to include a cartoon of Muhammad depicted as a suicide bomber. In the comments to that hub, the author insulted all who disagreed with him, going so far as to call us terrorist sympathisers. Many of us flagged that hub and requested its removal, but to no avail, which I found disappointing.

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9. 60

   nicolapposted 16 years ago

   Best thing to do is flag 'em and leave 'em - no point in giving the writers further publicity.

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10. 0

    Ronald Daniarposted 16 years ago

    RESTRICTIONS AND PROHIBITIONS ON USE
    Create Hubs that include any Content or links that is pornographic, defamatory, libelous, tortuous, vulgar, obscene, invasive of privacy, racially or ethnically objectionable, hateful, promotes or provides instructional information about illegal activities, or promotes any act of cruelty to animals.
    
    http://hubpages.com/help/user_agreement

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11. 59

    Maylinda Aronsposted 16 years ago

    Wow, I haven't seen any hate hubs yet. I think a mass flagging is the best kind of treatment to give these weirdos. I can't believe somebody would make such an offensive cartoon about any religious icon. That's just not funny.

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12. 60

    terenceyap07posted 16 years ago

    It is sad when such an incredible vehicle of knowledge has a handful of its contributors embroiled in heated, controversial debates. And though I have the highest regard for the knowledge, literacy and experience that most of these outstanding writers personify, I feel that the general level of courtesy and tolerance could be raised a knotch or two.
    
    This is not to say that there is a want of considerate behaviour but rather, that a more magnanimous style of writing could do much to foster a spirit of esprit de corps within this exceptional community of writers
    
    I do not think it poilte for one to pass judgement on, or to publicize the interpretation of, a subject that one does not have an intimate and thorough knowledge of.
    
    I hope that Hubpages shall continue to thrive with the mutual respect, consideration and goodwill that it is renowned for.

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    1. 70

       hassamposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       I agree with you but the worse thing I have seen about this hub is that,the head moderator has cleared the hub and even had comments on this hub, its really annoying, as the hub clearly promotes hatred between religions and the author of the hub is even offending individual authors so openly. As for the other hubs I think hub pages should take steps in deleting such hubs that spread hatred on this site and they are clearly violating the TOS of both the hubpages and the adsense. I saw my "Hacking Bluetooth Devices" hub unpublished in a week,which only discussed how hackers hack into bluetooth devices and its security issues, why such hubs that reside on the  hot hubs section arent being deleted??

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       1. 72

          Maddie Ruudposted 16 years agoin reply to this

          I carefully reviewed the hub in question on several occasions, and could not find any overt personal attacks or hate speech in the hub itself, nor the comments.  Whether or not I personally agree with the content of a hub, I cannot remove it simply for making statements which I or others find offensive, if it does in fact meet our terms of use.  While the hub to which you refer may be biased, judgemental, and/or offensive to some, it did not contain any statements which can be considered hate speech at the time of review.
          
          If there are new developments, or if I have missed anything in my reading of the admittedly long and convoluted discussion in the comments section of that hub (or any other), please email me at team@hubpages.com with a direct quote.
          
          
          
          Hacking/cracking content is forbidden by the Google AdSense terms of service.  Your hub gave instructions on how to hack bluetooth devices.  If it included, say, how to protect your device from hackers, instead, it would be eligible for republication.
          
          If you see any other hubs with hacking/cracking content, please flag them for review.

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          1. 70

             hassamposted 16 years agoin reply to this

             The most major issue was the use of Muhammad(p.b.u.h) picture as suicide bomber, but it has been removed now.Now there were some insulting comments also,I dont know whether they have been deleted or not,if I find them I will definitely report.

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    2. 88

       Paragliderposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       Terence - I'm reading this as a plea for moderation and I respect that position. Also as a general rule, I am opposed to censorship of opinion. However, there are limits to what can be passed off as free speech. When people proselytise for their own belief system it's perhaps not interesting for the rest of us but it's acceptable. When this degenerates into abuse of other beliefs and of those who hold them, it has crossed the line of decency. Even then, I would argue people have the right to behave indecently up to a point, as mostly they are only harming themselves. But there has to be a limit to such behaviour and in the case most in question, that limit was ignored.

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13. 60

    topstuffposted 16 years ago

    I think such offensive hubs shouldbe deleted by their authors themselves now.

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14. 60

    ceounlimitedposted 16 years ago

    hater-ade has no place in the refrigerator

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15. 60

    LifeInAGlasshouseposted 16 years ago

    I've just published a hub about love!
    
    Well its about a love of books but I hope that helps spread the love a bit.
    
    Its called There is no friend as loyal as a book incase you wanna read it.

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16. 90

    gamergirlposted 16 years ago

    Back on topic, I'm actually a little disappointed.  The more I read of the hub hassam is talking about, the more I'm appalled by it, and the comments.  Needless to say, I've left a few fan clubs today.

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17. 65

    Mishaposted 16 years ago

    Actually I think I love your current avatar the best out of all of your previous ones.

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18. 60

    terenceyap07posted 16 years ago

    Paraglider, I believe that all of us can live in peaceful, meaningful harmony if we work towards it. I think that some of the hubs mentioned could have been written using a more reasonable approach. I wish that all of us can work in unison to provide the best source of knowledge on the internet.

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19. 60

    Die'Dre'posted 16 years ago

    I have noticed a couple very negative hubpages, just by the title or first sentence.  I choose not to read "rants".  I don't like negative energy.  People are free to voice their opinions, but we don't have to read them. I think HubPages gives the option to "thumbs up" or down.
    
    I'm just happy there are so many really good hubs.

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       Paragliderposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       And so say all of us

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20. 61

    Marian Swiftposted 16 years ago

    The hubs in question seem to have vanished before I got to look at them, so I can't address them specifically.
    
    But in general ...
    
    I'm not in the habit of flagging, or even thumbing down.  Last month, however, I did make an exception for a couple of hubs with extreme obscenities in the titles.  The obscenities involved both language and descriptions of vile, non-consensual acts, -and- had nothing to do with the mediocre content in those hubs.
    
    Hub Pages' freewheeling exchange of ideas and sexy-but-tasteful pictures is glorious.  But it's a public space -- and one we want to see growing in popularity.  As such, Hub Pages' content reflects on all of us. 
    
    If a rant or negative hub goes over the line into hatefulness, and we see it but don't thumb it down -and- flag it, then we become complicit in that hatefulness.  Unfair to the point of pain, but true.

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21. 61

    Marian Swiftposted 16 years ago

    
    
    Still haven't read the controversial hub -- it does appear to have vanished -- but if it met the terms of use, fair enough.
    
    Hate speech, and the appearance of it, is one of the stickiest wickets.  That said, from what I've observed, Hub Pages has very specific guidelines on what is, or is not, "adult" or over-commercial content.  Are there similar standards for hate speech?

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    1. 0

       SirDentposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       Here is the hub everyone hates. I know there were others when this thread first started, but some have been removed by the authors. http://hubpages.com/hub/Christ-or-Muhammad

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       1. 58

          Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

          LOL - This is the hub?
          
          Good for you Sir Dent. Seriously, I "hate" both ideologies so.......
          
          But I am glad you are able to publish this here. Which is as it should be. People have been killing each other over this question for the last 2,000 years.
          
          May Allah and God bless all who fight over this lol

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          1. 0

             SirDentposted 16 years agoin reply to this

             That's the one Mark. You should go and read it yourself even. 

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          2. 88

             Paragliderposted 16 years agoin reply to this

             For anyone coming to this late, SirDent is being disingenuous here. He has recently removed from his hub a cartoon picture of Muhammad with a bomb in his headgear. His caption was "The Real Muhammad".
             
             Mark - I "hate" neither ideology but I accept neither. Entrenched positions and insults only ever serve to strengthen the opposite camp and reinforce the proponents' extremism. This is not something to support, (even with tongue in cheek - your bulge is showing

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                Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                Ah - I am not surprised - he is a christian. They are just as bad as the other lot. Liars and war-mongers.
                
                In fact, if either if them had any sense, they would get together and agree that the 2 profits are just 2 different sides of the same multi-sided coin and do some good together. Unlikely - religion is more about politics and control than god.
                
                Can't abide either one myself.

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             2. 0

                SirDentposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                It is now back only because of this post. I was trying to do a little something to ease the tension, but it is never enough is it. Souldn't have removed it to begin with.

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                1. 88

                   Paragliderposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                   What, you're now trying to make me responsible for your repetition of an abominable lack of judgment??
                   
                   I believe you should take stock of the wide cross-section of people, Christians, Muslims, and others, who have told you clearly what they think of your hub, and do the decent thing - take it down.

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22. 60

    Nicole Winterposted 16 years ago

    Tortuous?  What exactly.... I mean... Tortuous?  How exactly does someone torture another person with words?
    
    I saw a huge back & forth rant the other day & I just couldn't keep myself from not reading all the comments.  When I got to the end, though I felt a little cheap. 
    
    Okay, I felt a lot cheap.  What is it about free speech that makes people want to bag on each other for 5+ pages.... isn't there anything better they could be doing with their time?  And I'm ashamed that I got myself involved enough to read the whole thing.  Who cares about one ignorant persons opinions about Americans, really?
    
    Not to get too new age or anything, but wouldn't it just be easier to ignore the bad vibes than to buy into policing the net?
    
    --- NAW

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       Paragliderposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       Nicole - tortuous just means twisted or winding, e.g. a tortuous path, nothing to do with torture.

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          Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

          I know a certain poet who might be worth changing the meaning of the word for

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          1. 88

             Paragliderposted 16 years agoin reply to this

             Really? Please enlighten me...

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23. 60

    Nicole Winterposted 16 years ago

    The problem isn't specific groups of people... The Christians, the Muslims, the Americans, hell, the Canadians... it's people in groups.  It saddens me to see someone make a bash on a forum topic about not hating on people. 
    
    I've met some really nice Christians on here.  Regardless of anyone's theology on here ... the people who count, that is... their ideology doesn't seem to be that of  war-mongers, there is concern and kindness reverberating throughout their hubs.  Isn't that what counts?
    
    I'm going to make a concerted effort over the next couple of weeks to do unto others and to read what matters, not what incites, I welcome you all to join me in simply hitting your back button & leaving hubs that encourage hate & harbor ill-will.  Flag them if that's your bag, but it's my honest opinion that if we don't allow their words to rent space in our minds they will simply cease to be an issue.
    
    
    --- NAW

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24. 60

    Nicole Winterposted 16 years ago

    *blush*  Thanks, guys... you learn something new every day!
    
    --- NAW

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25. 90

    gamergirlposted 16 years ago

    SirDent,
    
    On the whole, I am a supporter of free speech, be it through images or words.  However, in the hub which has created this whole controversy, you have gone too far.  Mind you, this is my opinion, but the use of that image is tasteless, wrong and hateful.
    
    I'm terribly disappointed, as you seem to be a fairly nice fellow on the whole, but it seems like you're doing this deliberately - and that in itself is inexcuseable.

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    1. 0

       SirDentposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       GG, with all due respect to you, there are powers at work that you cannot see or hear. Many believe the Muslims mean no harm, but their very book tells what they should do. They are taught to terrorize. I am sorry you are disappointed in me. Nothing I can do about that. My hub stands and it is true. Even as we speak this very moment there is a committee trying to get an international law passed forbidding anyone to speak, teach, or preach the gospel of Jesus. The petition is before the UN at this time even.

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26. 90

    gamergirlposted 16 years ago

    There is no justification for spreading hate and religious attacks - and even less call for it on a site which is supposed to spread knowledge and verifiable, valuable information.

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       SirDentposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       Can you point out to me the exact hate that I spread? Can you also point out my attack?

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       1. 90

          gamergirlposted 16 years agoin reply to this

          The image of Muhammed with a bomb for a headwrap, coupled with a series of quotes in a "Christianity versus Muslims" fashion is both scandalous and ill-thought.  You can and have written better hubs.

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          1. 0

             SirDentposted 16 years agoin reply to this

             It is Jesus' teachings up against Muhammad's teachings. Islam, the religion of peace? The truth needs to be told.

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                RFoxposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                Truth is opinion and perception in disguise.
                
                

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                Ananta65posted 16 years agoin reply to this

                There is no truth, only perception

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                   VioletSunposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                   Very well said, Ananta.

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       2. 70

          hassamposted 16 years agoin reply to this

          Sirdent, I dont know why are out not trying to understand the element of hate that you are trying to spread through the hub, there are many things on the hub that are spreading hate.You are repeatidely calling islam a terrorist religion,and all who have supported islam in that hub you are also calling them supporters of terrorism.Now the thing is that you dont know the proper history of Islam.Islam is a relegion of peace, there are many examples to prove it.The biggest example in this regard is the ocassion of defeat of makkah, where Muhammad(p.b.u.h) did no harm to single person compeletely forgetting what hardships they suffered at the hands of makkans.They native makkans went as far as putting naked bodies of muslims on burning coal with a heavy stones on their chest.This is just an example there were many atrocities that were conducted on the muslims.After all such cruelty what would you expect from the muslims and there prophet.But intead of retaliation, Muhammad(p.b.u.h) had forgiven every one and muslims are inclined to follow the doings of our Prophet.They versus that you have quoted are not proper and you are saying that I expect them to be proper without an authentication,even the versus taken in the end are from websites that are doing the same without any proper authentification of the quranic versus.
          
          Maddie asked to report any element of hate in the hub.I dont know how clear it should be, you are calling islam a religion of terrorist and by doing this you are calling all muslims and all who support islam terrorists and you done that in the comments section.This is not a biased statement, this is a statement of hate.If this is not hate I dont know what else can be called hate.Also you are so openly promoting a particular group by attacking other religion and as far as I know adsense doesnt allow that,its is written in their TOS.
          I didnt wanted to comment on yout hub because it is useles to do so.Once again I want remind you,
          
          "Muslims are not terrorist Islam is not a religion of terrorism and still if you think that, you are attacking Islam, you are attacking muslim and all who have good will for them,this is hate under all circumstances,because you are telling people to hate muslims because they are terrorists."

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27. 66

    DJ Funktualposted 16 years ago

    SirDent, WTF.  I just read your hub.  dude.....wtf ?
    
    You shall hence be known to me as the zealot.   Why would you spread this kind of stuff?
    
    Do you actually dream at night about the Muslim takeover of the world?

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28. 65

    Mishaposted 16 years ago

    Here is an example of what a religion can do with otherwise nice person

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    1. 66

       DJ Funktualposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       Yup.

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          Ralph Deedsposted 16 years agoin reply to this

          Yup.

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29. 68

    SparklingJewelposted 16 years ago

    Well, you all know, frankly, if people made as big a deal out of the way Jesus and Christianity is portrayed sometimes as they do about Muhammad and Islam, Christians wouldn't have a reason to get so incensed.
    
    Not defending anyone's actions or words, just pointing out my perceived facts of much of the media and many people.
    
    If we all read just as much of the varied degrees of conservative and liberal content, that would be plain to see.
    
    I do my best to see the middle ground. But my opinion is that Jesus and Mohammad don't need any human egos defending them in their righteousness. I think some of the human egos in both religions have gone way over the edge and distorted the original teachings of each...

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30. 61

    Marian Swiftposted 16 years ago

    I read this hub after the picture of Muhammad had been removed, and while it is not the sort of approach I'd expect to find in Hub Pages, I probably would not flag it.  (If the picture had been up there, I might well have flagged it, knowing how offensive pictorial images of Muhammad are to those of the Muslim faith.)
    
    That said, I simply do not see what can be gained by comparing two of the most influential religious figures in the world, and declaring one right, and the other wrong. 
    
    It's been many years since I've been a religious-type person, but I was raised Christian and remember how religious faith feels, and how it influences one's thinking.  A declaration that Jesus was wrong, and Muhammad, the Buddha, Baha'ullah or whoever was right, would not have affected my faith in Jesus, nor would it have made me open to dialog.  Quite the reverse.
    
    Conversely, even back in my religious days, declarations that Jesus is right and all others wrong turned me off as well -- because I did not, and still do not, see how such a confrontational approach can open up dialog between the two religions, or change any minds within those religions.

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    1. 0

       Ananta65posted 16 years agoin reply to this

       I couldn't agree more. It serves no purpose but sowing discord. How difficult can it be to just respect other people's beliefs?

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31. 58

    Mark Knowlesposted 16 years ago

    Leave it up Sir Dent -
    
    Both the hub and the comments adequately demonstrate the value of both ideologies.
    
    Good to see you had switched your avatar from the star spangled banner when you published this.
    
    God bless America!
    Allah bless the Black gold !
    
    I just hope I am not in the middle when this all comes to a head as it surely will. Dollars flow to oil rich Muslim counties - oil rich countries are buying up your prime real estate and banks. How long before the Muslim political influence outweighs the Jewish? Have you considered not driving? It is the christian thing to do.
    
    And I cannot believe you are genuinely surprised at the reaction your cartoon got. I can't decide which is funnier - that or how offended people become when you mock their prophet lol
    
    Check out the amount of christians who promise me eternal damnation for mocking theirs
    
    I will leave you with this:
    
    The Muslims are coming

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32. 88

    Paragliderposted 16 years ago

    Off topic, but out of interest - I notice that on 'that' hub, the comments are now presented 'newest first'. How do you do that? I'd like to do it to some of mine too.

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33. 61

    Marian Swiftposted 16 years ago

    Brand-new feature!  Just got introduced over at the Announcements topic:
    
    http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/6477#post68512

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34. 59

    libraposted 16 years ago

    What evidence is there that we are dealing with an "otherwise" nice person? The available evidence points to hate and bigotry.

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35. 61

    Marian Swiftposted 16 years ago

    The picture's back up.   I flagged the hub.

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    1. 58

       Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       Nothing wrong with that picture, and I stand by Sir Dent's right to publish it if he so chooses.
       
       I mock both religions every chance I get.
       
       As far as I am concerned, they are both as bad as each other. Looking forward to some Muslims coming forward to defend their faith

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36. 0

    Ananta65posted 16 years ago

    Why provoke religious people who would not have bothered you?

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       Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       I provoke all religious people all the time - just ask anyone
       
       Although I assume that is a rhetorical question?

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37. 0

    Ananta65posted 16 years ago

    Not completely. What purpose does provoking people serve?

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    1. 58

       Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       It makes them question what they are saying and thinking. All I ever really do is ask a question. If you never ask yourself any questions, you will never grow and progress. Sometimes the questions are difficult and unanswerable which requires a rethink.
       
       If I thought it served no purpose, I would not do it.
       
       Did Sir Dent really think this would provoke no reaction? And does he have a right to post it?

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38. 0

    Ananta65posted 16 years ago

    Asking questions is not quite the same as putting out accusations, Mark.
    Getting people to rethink their ideas about the world is not the same as 'forcing' them into defence.
    If you expect people to reconsider their beliefs, you should also be willing to reconsider your own. Sir Dent doesn't. For him there is only one truth, the bible. For him there's only one truth: all muslims are violent extremists and potential terrorists.

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    1. 58

       Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       Please quote the accusations I made.

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          Ananta65posted 16 years agoin reply to this

          I wasn't referring to you, Mark but more in general and to the hub.

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             Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

             Ah well in that case, I can agree, but - I still defend his right to publish his worthless, christian-biased opinions here on hubpages.
             
             I no more believe in what he is saying than a Muslim, but I am not fettered with a belief system such as his. After all, they are just as bad as each other. The Muslims may be a little behind the times socially - they still stone "adulteresses" to death. Which is what "we" used to do, not so long ago.
             
             

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                Ananta65posted 16 years agoin reply to this

                It is your right of course to judge. I for me choose not to judge.

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                   Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                   I don't blame you one bit. I too opted out for a long time.
                   
                   But if you choose to respect other people's religious beliefs that include stoning women to death - is not that also a judgement of some kind?
                   
                   And you also then must respect Sir Dent's beliefs? And agree with his right to publish whatever opinion he prefers.
                   
                   Which pretty much means you are not adding anything whatsoever to the discussion.

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                Stacie Naczelnikposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                Maybe "we" should start that up again.  And, add "adulterers" to the stoning ditch too.  Yup, we should dig a ditch, and throw them all in.  Yeah, and because they are into adultery, they will start something up with each other, but "we" will be there waiting with stones.  Big stones.  Yeah.
                
                Anyone who argues with this punishment is obviously a "witch."  "We" can build a stake.  Who has the matches?

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                Ananta65posted 16 years agoin reply to this

                I can only speak for myself, but I have met quite a few muslims here in Holland and none of them practice these kind of punishments, nor do they propagate it.
                I think it is unfair to blame all (billions) muslims for the practices of a few governments.

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                   Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                   Ja, Ik heb ook in Nederland gewond.
                   
                   Ask the Mollucans how tolerated they are......
                   
                   I live in close proximity to a large number of Muslims. And I don't mean the 17 you live near.
                   
                   I have already had two fights this year over things they have said to my wife.
                   
                   You clearly have no idea of the value Muslims place on their women. But I guess you respect that huh?

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                      Ananta65posted 16 years agoin reply to this

                      It's way beyond 17, mind you. I have lived in The Hague, which is one of the most multi-cultural cities in the Netherlands.
                      Mind you, I don't approve of misbehavior. I won't tolerate people that abuse or humiliate women. We (the Dutch) have laws and these apply to everybody. However, I refuse to accuse anonymous groups, just because they share one characteristic: their religion.
                      Many cases of sexual child abuse are committed by christian people, yet I don't claim that each and every christian is a child abuser.
                      Again, I don't respect people who don't respect women, but I refuse to generalize.

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                   VioletSunposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                   Absolutely. Of course not all Muslims stone women or believe in this, these are the fundies, who do this in their ignorance.   My estranged brother-in-law is a Muslim, have met his family and they are  well educated, civilized folks who wouldn't hurt a fly if they could help it. When my 18 year old nephew passed away and my girlfriends went to the funeral and met my nephew's cousins (my nephew was Arab- American) who are Lebanese and Muslims, they said to me but they look "normal" LOL! I don't know what they expected, but "normal" they are indeed.  One of the cousins is a banker in Washington, DC and takes EST courses which is a spiritual and self empowerment program, and is a super loving son, travels to Lebanon to ensure his wealthy Mom is well taken care of as she is now alone and not in good health.

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                      Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                      Well, I have just one question for both of you -
                      
                      Do the Muslims you know live in a Muslim country?

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                         VioletSunposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                         Well, nope, but I am speaking from experience or at least my sister's experience. After I made my post here, and after thinking about it, women do not have the rights we do in the Western world. Sis went to Syria years ago when her late son was about 2 years old for a one month trip. One day she was bored, so she decided to take a walk and was delighted to find two English speaking Arabs, and sat down in front of a shop to chat with her son next to her; one of her sister-in-law's saw her speaking to the men, and she became rather hysterical and  started scolding sis in Arabic,  a language sis doesn't understand; it was a scandal because traditionally women are not supposed to talk to men if they are alone, so when  they got home her husband translated for her and was also agitated. Yikes.   However, as far as practicing stoning, or commiting violent acts in the name of "religion," its not a general practice among all Muslims,  this more of what I was focusing on in this thread.

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                         Paragliderposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                         Speaking as an honorary third member of 'both of you' -
                         
                         In my case, yes they do, and so do I (live in a Muslim country). There are no stonings or 'amputations' here. Where such things are prescribed by sharia law, they are invariably overruled by the State. Corporal punishment is carried out sometimes (as it was in UK until about 1960, I think). Thus, sharia law is used more to define an offence than to sentence it. I've found this to be the norm in all of the more advanced Muslim states I've lived and worked in.
                         
                         Saudi is not the same. But Saudi is more or less a third world country that happens to be awash with money. The culture there is quite primitive and it's not a place to get on the wrong side of the law.
                         
                         I won't speak about Iran because I've never lived there (though I know many Iranians). Generally, I think it's a good idea not to talk about places and practices you've never experienced at first hand.

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                            SweetiePieposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                            I still think we need to know about injustices worldwide, even if we have not experienced these first hand or not.  No one culture is immune to injustices, but not talking about certain events would be like saying it is okay and we should just ignore that certain things happen.  My co-worker's husband escaped the Iranian Revolution and the experiences he has shared with us were worth knowing about, even if these were not first hand experiences for us.

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    DJ Funktualposted 16 years ago

    In other news I just made a Star Trek Hub about how great it will be in the future when there is no money or religion to screw us all up.

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    Ananta65posted 16 years ago

    I'm afraid it's neither money nor religion that screw us all up, but people

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    SweetiePieposted 16 years ago

    Maybe it was not the best choice to compare two religions because that seems to really have offended some people.  What I find wrong though is some people acting indignant about Sirdent making hateful comments when others have done the same thing without any recourse.  All things should be equal, and some things just are not.

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    Uninvited Writerposted 16 years ago

    I don't mind people writing religious hubs. People can promote their religion all they want. I just don't see why you have to run down another religion to justify your own beliefs.

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    Mark Knowlesposted 16 years ago

    Well, surely - if you believe one thing and write promoting it, you are automatically running down everyone else's beliefs?
    
    If you are right - they must be wrong.........

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    gamergirlposted 16 years ago

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-P … ontroversy
    
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-P … #Aniconism

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       Stacie Naczelnikposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       The article for the first link reminds me of the controversy going on right now about The New Yorker's cover for this week. The point is bring about conversation about the misrepresentations of Obama, but many are still very offended by it and consider it inappropriate.

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    Ananta65posted 16 years ago

    I think it is people that stone women to death, not their religion.
    
    I respect them, which doesnt mee I agree to them.
    You may see that as not adding to the discussion, I cherish the ollusion that my words may get some people to think about how they express themselves

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       Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       Well, as you can see, I cannot respect anyone that holds certain beliefs.
       
       And I for one have no interest in expressing myself other than as clearly as possible
       
       And it is their religion that gives them the justification to do the things they do.
       
       But - I do have a question -
       
       How can you respect some one for doing something violent that you disagree with?

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          Ananta65posted 16 years agoin reply to this

          I don't respect acts of violence, abuse or humiliation.
          But just because wrongdoers (ab)use a religion to justify their deeds does not mean that I should disrespect that religion. Nor does it mean that I should disrespect everyone who practices the same religion.
          Even if the majority of the people who disrespect women are (or claim to be) muslims, it does not automatically mean that all muslims disrespect women.
          
          If you look at hooligans here in Holland (and other European countries), I bet that the majority of them wears jeans. Does this mean that every person wearing jeans is a hooligan?

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    R. Martin Bassoposted 16 years ago

    This is well said and a very topical, appropriate area on which to comment.  I discovered HP a few months ago and have greatly enjoyed my experience here, however, I too am noticing 'hate' oriented writings, such as anti-American, etc. being posted.  HP is a writer's resource which should have standards to retain our credibility.  Lately I too have been noticing a distinct increase in various new 'hubbers' (I use that term loosley) posting porn, hate speech, etc., as thought this were youtube or myspace.  It is refreshing to see that this trend is being observed by others too....

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    Marian Swiftposted 16 years ago

    Ummm, no.  No.  A statement of what one believes to be true can be made passionately and adamantly, without tossing in deliberate insults and accusations.
    
    To toss in insults and language or imagery one knows to be offensive is not promotion, it is provocation.
    
    Mark, I just read about the insults you and your wife received.  I know how it is when your first encounters with a given cultural group are hostile ones, and I sympathize. 
    
    For me, it was near impossible to control the impulse to blame every individual in that group, or who in any way seemed to support that group.  Eventually (took years) I was able to overcome that, and moved on to sharing some rewarding experiences -- not with those individuals -- but with others in that culture. 
    
    Do I agree with all their beliefs?  Heck, no!  But now I know they have their share of angels and arses, and so does every other group.  That knowledge has helped a lot in subsequent new encounters.

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    Mark Knowlesposted 16 years ago

    Violet Sun -
    
    They became agitated because a woman alone speaking to any men is an invitation to gang rape, condoned by Sharia law.
    
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle … 096814.stm
    
    Your brother in law was extremely remiss in not explaining this to your sister, but then his culture would not require him to do that. It is the woman's responsibility to know these things.
    
    And you are quite right, not all Muslim's will stone some one to death, although they are legally required to do so if the need arises.
    
    Any more than all christians believe the world was created 6,000 years ago.
    
    Marian - I live in the South of France where there is a large and growing North African community. They have a very different culture to me and the French (see above).
    
    If they were in their own country, I would not have a problem with them considering a woman wearing a short skirt to be fair game and a slut asking to be gang raped. And looking at her in such a way as to make it clear this is how they feel. That is their choice, their culture and religion.  I would simply not have taken my wife there.
    
    Remember the riots in Paris last year?
    
    Not riots in Paris - riots in the North African slums in the Paris suburbs.

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       libraposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       Gang rape is condoned by Sharia law?!! This is gross disinformation - of which I hope you're only a victim. 
       
       In the case you cited, did you read that the rapists were jailed?  And on appeal: "The rapists also had their prison terms doubled."

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          Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

          The woman was given 200 lashes and six months in prison.
          
          200 lashes and six months in prison seems as though the court blamed her also.
          
          But feel free to explain the finer points of Sharia law. I must admit to a level of ignorance.

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             libraposted 16 years agoin reply to this

             There are no finer points. Rape is amongst the most serious crimes. As to the punishment on the victim, you would have read that was to do with her breaking the law on segregation of the sexes, nothing to do with the attack by the rapists.
             
             I agree that's a harsh Saudi law, and the punishment on her appears to be influenced by political considerations.
             
             See this paragraph in the article you linked to:
             
             "The Arab News quoted an official as saying the judges had decided to punish the girl for trying to aggravate and influence the judiciary through the media."
             
             That's nothing to do with Sharia.

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          SweetiePieposted 16 years agoin reply to this

          However, it is troubling that the victim also served a prison term.  I am not allowed to comment on this I suppose since this is not my culture, but it is not is not right for a victim of rape to be treated like a criminal.  This is probably why there are so many human rights organizations world wide trying to put an end to injustices such as these.

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             libraposted 16 years agoin reply to this

             That's nothing to do with the rape itself, but her breaking the law on segregation of the sexes - that is a very harsh Saudi law, I agree.

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       VioletSunposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       Your brother in law was extremely remiss in not explaining this to your sister, but then his culture would not require him to do that. It is the woman's responsibility to know these things.
       
       And you are quite right, not all Muslim's will stone some one to death, although they are legally required to do so if the need arises.
       >>>
       
       Yes, he was remiss in not explaining this to her especially since he was living in the USA where he met her and she was not familiar with his culture.

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    Shadesbreathposted 16 years ago

    Christianty, Islam and Agnosticism meet and will bandy words forever.  Religion is poison to peace where the recipients don't share the same views and if enough time passes.  They get along in short distances, but a sprint towards world peace won't happen until the crusaders or the terrorists finally win.  Or until the aliens land.  All the long winded debate does nothing.  Debate and argument assumes logic, reason and... most of all... listening.  NObody in a "converstation" like this is listening.  They just formulate how best to assert their faith.  Faith, by definition means belief in something that can't be shown as true.  Christianity was the most murderous faith for many centuries.  Islam is having a turn.  They all suck.  I wait for the aliens.

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       libraposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       To Moses, Jesus and Mohammed, it wasn't just a question of faith. It was the reality and they were living it. Do we need to re-invent the wheel?
       
       As for the aliens, what makes you think they are atheists?
       
       Incidentally, the attack by Islamophobics on the Prophet Mohammed will never be reciprocated by an attack by Muslims on Jesus. Jesus is among the most revered prophets of Islam.

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          Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

          OK - which planet do you live on?
          
          
          
          And those other things you quoted to put things "in context" would only do so if you added some information to people being lashed and jailed for the offenses. You clearly did not read what I said in the first place.
          
          Shadesbreath - I think the aliens have landed and they are no better than we are

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    libraposted 16 years ago

    Just to throw this in, for context, in view of earlier comments.
    
    Did you know that adultery is a crime in New York?
    http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/ … -new-york/
    
    And in Wisconsin?
    http://www.vanwagnerwood.com/CM/Custom/Adultery.asp
    
    In Michigan, it is punishable by up to life in prison:
    http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic … E_ID=53782
    
    It's also a crime in Korea and Taiwan. In Mexico it was decriminalised only around April or May 2008.

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