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HubHupping and Poetry Hubs...What is a substandard?

  1. Sally's Trove profile image83
    Sally's Troveposted 6 years ago

    The question of whether poetry Hubs should have 400-word minimums came up in this thread a few minutes ago:

    http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/70203#post1528809

    I've been puzzling about what to do with poetry Hubs I've found while hopping. I haven't flagged any of them, because poetry is a unique writing form that may have great value in either few or many words.

    In addition, poetry does not (nor should it) always subscribe to the rules of grammar.

    Considering the weeding out that must happen with HP as a result of the google slap, and following the recent rules about what a Hub can or cannot be, even great poetry would have to be prohibited if it were too "short".

    Thoughts and advice about reviewing poetry Hubs for the purpose of flagging?

    Edit: Good grief! That should be "HubHopping and Poetry Hubs...What Is Substandard?"

    1. pauldeeds profile image
      82
      pauldeedsposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      As long as they are categorized correctly, poetry hubs are perfectly acceptable.  You mention a 400 word minimum, but we also haven't issued any edicts about how many words a non-poetry hub must have to be acceptable.  We do automatically prevent hubs that are almost devoid of content from being published (outside of poetry), but we review the slightly longer hubs on a case by case basis.  You can say a lot in 300 words, and you can also say nothing in 1500 words.

      1. rebekahELLE profile image90
        rebekahELLEposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        Thank you!

      2. camlo profile image87
        camloposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        Okay. At least that's clear.
        Should we nevertheless look at poetry Hubs with regard to quality? I even found a pornographic one whilst hopping the other day. Some are not even poetry, really. Or should we leave poetry alone all together?

        1. pauldeeds profile image
          82
          pauldeedsposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          If a poetry hub violates other rules of the site, it should certainly be flagged as such.  But, flagging a poem you think is bad as "low quality" is not productive.  I'd suggest giving it a thumbs down instead.

          1. Cagsil profile image59
            Cagsilposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Hey Paul, have you now given the "thumbs down" rating more value?

          2. camlo profile image87
            camloposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Okay. Thank you for clarifying.

      3. rebekahELLE profile image90
        rebekahELLEposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        this needs to stay on a page with current responses..

  2. Uninvited Writer profile image83
    Uninvited Writerposted 6 years ago

    I just pass the poetry hubs by, unless they have badly pixilated pictures. I don't know if that is part of low quality but to me it is.

    1. Sally's Trove profile image83
      Sally's Troveposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      In another of today's threads, this message was received by a Hubber about three of his Hubs that HP flagged as substandard:

      "The quality of this Hub does not live up to HubPages' standards. It may be uninspired content in heavily saturated topic areas, short or unoriginal content, purely personal content, promote dubious products or offers, or it may contain low resolution images or images that prominently watermarked. These factors diminish the value of this Hub to our community."

      I'd say "badly pixilated" pics would be reason to flag.

    2. stephhicks68 profile image91
      stephhicks68posted 6 years agoin reply to this

      I do the same thing.  I vote down on hubs that are published only for the reason of promoting products or services and are too short, or written in bad English.

  3. camlo profile image87
    camloposted 6 years ago

    I agree that it's a shame to have to unpublish good writing, but if short means sub-standard, then it has to go.
    Sherri, you know I write fiction. If it were discovered that fiction were detrimental to the site, then I'd have to take it down and put it elsewhere. I'd do it willingly, because it would help the whole site as well as my other articles that are not fiction and have always made money ... until now.
    Another Hubber suggested on another thread that more than one poem could be published in a Hub to bring it up to a required w/c - same with recipes.

    1. Sally's Trove profile image83
      Sally's Troveposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      And I agree with you, Camlo. If I wrote poetry or fiction here, I'd take it down, too, if it worked against HP building its business.

      HP may have to re-evaluate the entire concept of this site as an "open platform" for publishing whatever you care to write.

      1. Poetic Muse profile image60
        Poetic Museposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        Hubpages is no longer an open platform.

    2. Granny's House profile image67
      Granny's Houseposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      I am not a writer. I am learning, I thought with Hub pages. I also will admit that I am out of work right now, older and it is harder to find work, so When I found Hub Pages, I thought it a good place to start. I have met many, many great writers and poets. I would HATE to see them go.
      When I first read about Hub pages I thought it was a place for writers and those who would like to learn to write to meet. I did not think the main thing on Hub Pages was MONEY.
      I guess the all mighty dollar does rule. Everywhere

      1. Marisa Wright profile image99
        Marisa Wrightposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        Granny, the main thing on HubPages is money.  There's no getting away from that because HubPages is a business.

        It costs HubPages a lot of money to give us this wonderful place where we can write on the internet for free.  They're not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts, they're doing it to make money. 

        HubPages only makes money if our articles make money, so at least some of us have to write with that in mind.

        HubPages is generous enough to find space for writers who just want to write for the sake of writing, too, because it enriches the quality and interest on the site.  But they do have to strike a balance.

  4. Mark Ewbie profile image87
    Mark Ewbieposted 6 years ago

    I will not allow anything through unless the iambic pentameter is perfectly in order with full use of alternate rhyming couplets using a quasi notational form of the sonnet or baroche fettacini.


    Unless its a sea shanty of course.

    1. Sally's Trove profile image83
      Sally's Troveposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      lol

      And you are exactly right. The criteria for judging poetry are completely different from those used to judge narrative.

    2. barryrutherford profile image55
      barryrutherfordposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Dont forget at least one onamatapea & a couple of metaphors & use of similes


      smile smile smile

    3. RedElf profile image84
      RedElfposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      big_smilebig_smilebig_smile

      I have added text to most of my poetry hubs to raise the words count - it can be tedious writing prose about a subject I have just written about in poetry, but it seems to have helped. I would really rather be able to just write poetry sometimes, though sad

      Would be lovely if there was a way to have an exception for poetry hubs.

    4. Poetic Muse profile image60
      Poetic Museposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Thanks for making me smile you salty dog.

  5. Lisa HW profile image79
    Lisa HWposted 6 years ago

    To me, unless HubPages comes out and tells people, "This site is not intended for posting poetry,.." (or whatever other kind of Hub is in question) "..so please don't post it", people shouldn't be flagging poetry Hubs unless they look like spam.  For now, they and recipes are kind of "their own kind of category", and unless HP says otherwise, they should get the "special-category" pass they've been getting (flagging-wise).  To me, HP isn't a democracy.  It's owned and run by someone who has the right and power to say what's allowed on the site.  For now, poetry is allowed, so I don't think flagging people for "Hubbing while being a poet" is what we ought to be doing.  hmm

    1. camlo profile image87
      camloposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      If something appears in the guise of a poem, but isn't, then I think it can be flagged. Much of it is just a succession of rhyming lines that have little or nothing to do with poetry, or just a succession of unrhyming lines that were intended to be poetry - but are not.

      1. Sally's Trove profile image83
        Sally's Troveposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        I am poetry-challenged. It's a literary form I somehow never bonded with! I think the HP team might like to have you on board for some advice here. smile

        1. camlo profile image87
          camloposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          Well, I know a little about poetry, but would never attempt to write it.

          I think a lot of people - judging by what I see - think it's a quick and easy way of making a Hub, hence some extremely poor quality.

          Poetry is an art, and an accomplished poet has mastered her/his craft with much practice and gained knowledge, just like any other  artist.

          1. Sally's Trove profile image83
            Sally's Troveposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            A while ago, in a comment to a poetry Hub, someone blasted a Hubber for publishing a haiku as a Hub, calling it substandard but in much worse language.

            However, the haiku was beautiful, IMHO (very humble).

            Yet, of course, it fell short of anything approaching minimal w/c.

            1. camlo profile image87
              camloposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              I wonder if it could be a good idea if HP were to set up a new section to the site reserved for creative writing, keeping it separate from the factual and money-making articles. I mean something like a sub-site, if such a thing can exist. It would be a lot more manageable, especially because it seems that creative writing demands different rules.

              1. Aware1 profile image59
                Aware1posted 6 years agoin reply to this

                Camlo, I think you have a great suggestion regarding the possibility of HP maybe placing or transfering the creative writing to a sub-site. I had wondered that myself. With one of my sites I have a few sub-domains and I wonder if they are treated diferently in the eyes of G. My sub-domains carry the same Alexa ratings as the main one, so I am not sure how it goes. I am going to search whether search engines frown upon poetry or creative writings with less than 400 words. Obviously, poems do not make money, they are truly artisitc. Understandably, just like art creative writing can be difficult to judge. What may be garbage to some is a gem to others. And surely, there are probably what is seen as failed attempts...

              2. Sally's Trove profile image83
                Sally's Troveposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                A little while ago (time in terms of what's going on with HP is distorted...could have been two weeks ago or two days ago), ryankette or sunforged or someone equally knowledgeable about this stuff engaged in a forum thread where it was proposed that HP segment its writing products as part of a branding initiative. This makes sense to your point. Areas of HP might be Poetry, How To, Fiction. Each would have its own subsite, like poetry.hubpages.com or fiction.hubpages.com.

                Sorry, I can't find that thread. Maybe someone else knows where it is. I thought it was a brilliant idea.

                1. Aware1 profile image59
                  Aware1posted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  Sally, I saw that thread,too. That was a loong thread regarding the G update theories. It was Sunforged that made the suggestion. He considered it branding the different topics. It does sound like a brilliant idea. I think that it just was questioned of it is possible to seperate HP's infra-structure at this time.

                  But, I really like the idea.

                  1. Sally's Trove profile image83
                    Sally's Troveposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                    Can you find the link to that forum thread? I'm so glad you saw it, too. I did scan sunforged's activity, but I gave up 'cause he's all over the place!

                2. camlo profile image87
                  camloposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  Yes, I agree. Apart from making everything more manageable, people would also be able to see what type of site they are going to when searching.
                  I mean, people looking for an article on how to grow cucumbers, for example, could well land on my short story that involves cucumbers, but won't give them any information relevant to what they're looking for at all.

                  1. Sally's Trove profile image83
                    Sally's Troveposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                    That's exactly the idea. And I remember Dolly. No information about cucumber culture in that Hub, but what a read!

                    Google certainly is the master in the hunt and seek game, and sites like HP need to arrange their content in a way that is more friendly to Joe-searcher. An organization and search strategy in line with the major search engines, who are a giant step ahead in the game of delivering what searchers want to know...despite searchers' awkward questions...is where HP needs to be.

              3. theherbivorehippi profile image81
                theherbivorehippiposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                This is a brilliant idea.  I for one enjoy reading poetry...can't write it but I do like to read it so I would hate to see it all go but a "sister site" for it would be perfect!

            2. WannaB Writer profile image92
              WannaB Writerposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              This discussion hits home with me for a couple of reasons. First I have published one bit of blank verse here, but it's not short. I decided to publish it after it sat for many years looking for the right time and place,and it was written before the Internet existed as we know it today. It is a great poem? Probably not. There is a much better poet on HubPages than I -- MFB+III. I read his work because his poetry is fresh and communicates what many people feel. He has even put many of his poems to music. Some of his poems are long and some are shorter. Some I like better than others. Few are in exactly the same form, and many don't fit the common and traditional forms. That doesn't matter. Many of the poems in college text books did not fit the forms and standards of those who came before them. Many of the painters you study in art class were breaking with the "standards" of their contemporary "schools" of art. Part of being a poet is seeing things differently than others.

              With that being said, I have also read poems while hub hopping I thought weren't good, even accounting for poetic license. I am an English major with graduate work in English and I've had to read a lot of poets and poetic theory. Everything that rhymes is not poetry, and much that doesn't rhyme, is. So to flag someone who doesn't write in iambic pentameter, which English professors often have ridiculed and other poets parodied, is unfair. Even sonnets have been parodied. I will not presume to judge a poet for form, but I will evaluate on the use of words, the images they form in a reader's mind, their melody, their rhythm, and whether they evoke an emotional response, or the kind of response the poet intended. I have not yet flagged a poem, but there are a couple I considered flagging. I just couldn't do it, because poetry is a matter of taste. Someone might love what I don't -- or hate what I love, and neither response might be tied to quality. Maybe I'll write a hub on how to evaluate poetry, but I'd better do some review first.

              1. Sally's Trove profile image83
                Sally's Troveposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                I hope you do write a Hub or two on this topic. As I mentioned earlier, I am poetry-challenged. It's a form I never bonded with. You and Camlo, and I'm sure others, could offer a lot to people such as myself. I'd love to read a piece on evaluating poetry that didn't make me feel like I'm back in high school, listening to a boring teacher, and stressing over passing a test.

                1. WannaB Writer profile image92
                  WannaB Writerposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  Sally, I think reading some textbook poems and analyzing them might have turned a lot of people off poetry. Poetry was meant to be read aloud, not torn apart and measured and dissected. I think the school experience that dulls a kindergarten child's natural curiosity to learn is the same one that makes adults think they don't like poetry. Yet, those same people will be singing or listening to poetry being sung. Go figure.

                  1. Sally's Trove profile image83
                    Sally's Troveposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                    I think it's time for you to write that Hub, or a series of them.

          2. lyndre profile image81
            lyndreposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            I knew nothing about poetry and had never attempted to write it before joining hubpages.
            In fact I had never written anything before joining hubpages.
            Is part of the appeal of hubpages not the chance to learn and improve as a writer?
            I agree with what you say and mine might be included in the poor quality smile, but anyone is welcome to tell me this in the comments section.

            1. Sally's Trove profile image83
              Sally's Troveposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              I do think HP has presented itself as an Internet site that invites people who want to learn to write. At the same time, it claims to be a site that contains useful and valuable information. These two things are most often mutually exclusive.

              HP has been a wonderful place for me to write things I wouldn't have an audience for in my professional writing life, but I never saw it as a place to learn how to write. I didn't come here to learn about the craft and skill of writing; I already had that.

              If Hubbers have come here to learn to write and in the process did, then I applaud that. But that was then and this is now. HP needs to take a stand on what it wants to be. A practice ground, or a showcase for quality writing.

              I don't know you, but I'm off to visit your Hubs and comment. smile

              1. Aficionada profile image89
                Aficionadaposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                Agreed without reservation!! Very well said.



                That would be another reason for dividing into different sections - or rather into totally separate sites.

            2. camlo profile image87
              camloposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              I don't think we ever stop learning, but I must say, I was writing in one way or another a long time before I joined HubPages, and used workshops to learn many of the basics.

            3. Granny's House profile image67
              Granny's Houseposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              I agree with you. I think and hope the ones who read my hubs have seen an improvement . I guess mine will be bad quality too:(

    2. Sally's Trove profile image83
      Sally's Troveposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      I think the sub-question here, to Camlo's point, is whether poetry is causing harm to the HP site. I agree that HP is not a democracy, but it is interested in thoughts from its members.

      For as long as poetry is allowed here, should there be "rules" applied to it? Because there aren't any at this time, I don't flag poetry Hubs, either, no matter how much I might like to (unless there's an infringement like the one Uninvited Writer mentioned).

      1. camlo profile image87
        camloposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        I think it's the shortness of a poetry or recipe Hub that could be doing harm. I say 'could', because I don't know.

        Anyway, regardless of that, shouldn't we flag anything that is badly written, whether it be a poem or a recipe or anything else?

        I've never flagged either of the above mentioned, by the way, if well written.

        If a rule regarding w/c were brought into effect, more than one poem or recipe could be published per Hub. I've written one Hub with recipes for drinks, and included a history of each drink - there's so much people can do to keep Hubs of an appropriate length and keep them interesting.

        1. Sally's Trove profile image83
          Sally's Troveposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          Not to belabor the point, but I was referring to your words, "If it were discovered that fiction were detrimental to the site, then I'd have to take it down and put it elsewhere."

          There must be creative ways to keep poetry (and short recipes) at HP as a viable format. Publishing them in a "collection" Hub could be one way.

          1. camlo profile image87
            camloposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Well, this is a writer's site, so I don't think fiction and poetry can be doing harm - I mean, writers write that sort of thing. I think it's just about the length. Therefore, publishing poems and recipes in 'collection' Hubs can only be a great idea.

            Of course, if length does no harm at all, then HubPages should take 'too short' off the list of violations, and we'll never have to trouble ourselves with it again.

      2. Lisa HW profile image79
        Lisa HWposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        I agree about HP's valuing of, interest in, and responding to all kinds of members' input ; and I don't (at all) suggest that members shouldn't be kicking in some input.   My only "issue" comes in when someone is actually deciding whether to flag or not flag, and when that decision kind of presumes to a right to flag what (at least for now) remains in the "non-flagging" category in the eyes of HP.  hmm  I just think if everyone starts flagging every Hub they don't like, or consider "sub-standard", for their own, individual, reasons; that's going to get REALLY messy - especially for the few people who have to look at the flagged stuff and decide whether it stays or not.  Essentially, that can get really close to  "no Hub is published, or stays, without being reviewed by an editor".

        I don't post poetry on here, and I only read other people's occasionally.  As a searcher or "browser", though, I have to say if I run into something that's a poem I just think, "Oh, that's just a poem," and I just go onto the next thing.  I find running into a poem far less objectionable than, say, running into some of the stuff that shows up in a search (or a "browse").    I don't know...    I kind of think the existence of poetry on a site that isn't "supposed to be" a content farm is the least of anyone's problems.

        1. Sally's Trove profile image83
          Sally's Troveposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          I'm on the same page with you, Lisa. But I'm looking for guidance about how I can contribute to making this site the best it can be. If that means flagging is part of the process, then I'm willing to do that.

          For the most part, the "substandard", "spam", and other categories that appear in the flag window are understandable. But when it comes to poetry, a form in and of itself, there is no guidance about quality.

          You know, I wonder if there isn't some kind of internal flag HP sets, that search engines recognize, that defines a page as "poem" and eliminates that page from an assessment of overall site quality. If that's the case, then I'll never flag a poem.

          In the absence of HP setting rules and guidelines for poetry Hubs, I'm at a loss.

        2. Marisa Wright profile image99
          Marisa Wrightposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          ...and time-wasting for HubPages staff, too.  I agree, it would be good to get some guidance from the HP team on what constitutes "too short", and whether they regard poetry as a special case.

          1. rebekahELLE profile image90
            rebekahELLEposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Paul Deeds answered this in a previous post on this thread. I know it is lost with all the responses. 

            http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/70209?p … ost1530525

          2. lrohner profile image81
            lrohnerposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Read up further in this (I think) thread. Paul Deeds did say that poetry should be left alone as long as it is categorized under poetry -- unless it blatantly violates the HP TOS. And they won't give a word count on what they think is too short. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that they don't want people writing to word count.

    3. Granny's House profile image67
      Granny's Houseposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      I think you are right. I have read many poems with just a few lines that had meant more then a 10 part story!

  6. Aware1 profile image59
    Aware1posted 6 years ago

    I have to agree with Lisa! There is so much spam and unquestionable spam on this site that can be flagged to keep many a number of people busy with cleaning up the site. Poetry is clearly in the "poetry" section and creative writing and it is "UNIQUE" (not copied content.)

    I would not waste any time flagging it. There had been a strong creative community here at one time and I know there is great quality stuff here. Actually, I have a poetry profile here which holds a PR3 rating. I've thought about maybe moving it, though many of my pieces have at least 50 to 150 comments from those great times here on HP. So, all of that would be gone. AND, HP has not stated that poetry is an issue.

    Granted, that may change and if the time comes where it seems poetry is hurting the site than I will take it and find it another home... like it's own site. Until then, there is a big clean up in obvious places. The stuff that constitutes "a content farm!"

    1. Sally's Trove profile image83
      Sally's Troveposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      You and Lisa make the same point, that poetry is not the root cause of HP taking such a dive with google searches, but how much of a contribution have poetry Hubs made? Since none of us knows exactly what aspects of HP have caused this "slap", poetry Hubs should be part of the overall site evaluation process, shouldn't they? And I'm sure they are, it's just that we don't have any definitive guidance from HP about how to single them out as substandard or not.

  7. profile image0
    ralwusposted 6 years ago

    OK, I have deleted all of my poems and closed my account(just emailed them to). Hope that will help y'all.

    1. wyanjen profile image81
      wyanjenposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      sad

    2. rebekahELLE profile image90
      rebekahELLEposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      sad  why?  no one has made any official mention of poetry!! 

      this makes me very sad.

    3. lyndre profile image81
      lyndreposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Charlie get your stuff back up or I am coming for your bottle.

    4. recommend1 profile image74
      recommend1posted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Why would you do that ?  Did I miss something someone said ?

    5. camlo profile image87
      camloposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Why have you done that? Paul Deeds has confirmed that poetry Hubs may be shorter than others, so they're obviously doing no harm. The question was more to do with length of Hub and what should be flagged.
      Hope you put your Hubs back up. Too many people love your work, so why take it away before there's reason to, or rather, when there's no need to?

    6. Granny's House profile image67
      Granny's Houseposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      ralwus(charlie) has some of the best!  See what they have done. All this talk about flagging . Whos is good and whos is not!  Writing is expression not WORD COUNT

    7. ThomasE profile image75
      ThomasEposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      ralwus, please put them back.

    8. RedElf profile image84
      RedElfposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      sadsadsadsadsad

  8. aware profile image70
    awareposted 6 years ago

    WTH  Why  is ralwus  doing that? what happened ? I love his stuff .

    1. rebekahELLE profile image90
      rebekahELLEposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      IDK, unless people are going around flagging poems..


      with all the spam here.. hmm

  9. aware profile image70
    awareposted 6 years ago

    Upon scrolling  and reading the comments by  so many . I suddenly lost my appetite. I write cruddy  poetry , short story's  and some opinion .Many are short , Most are misspelled.And probably none are up to critics standards. But id rather write junk  than vomit out how to hubs and  product reviews . Us poets out here . You don't see us Attacking others work or seeking to burn books. When i started here i was under the impression this was also a creative writing site.  This is a question to hub page staff, "am i , are we, in the wrong place?"
    And  oh
    With poetry a word count requirement  is tantamount to shoving words in someones mouth.
    ray

    1. lyndre profile image81
      lyndreposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      I am trying to look at this subject with an open mind, as I have become a fan of poetry through hubpages.Even writing some.
      Yes some of it is crap, but so are some of the how to, top ten, and product review hubs.
      But if we have lost a prolific writer and poet like Charlie (Ralwus) then for me it is a sad day for hubpages.

      1. Granny's House profile image67
        Granny's Houseposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        I agree. ralwus is one of the best!

    2. ThomasE profile image75
      ThomasEposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Look, I think people are in witch hunting mode... Paul Deeds is the one who gets to say whether something is OK on the site... and he says poetry is OK as long as it follows the rules. Don't sweat the small stuff.

      1. camlo profile image87
        camloposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        I don't know about 'witch hunt', but I agree with what you say otherwise.
        Why Ralwus decided to take down his Hubs and close his account, I don't understand. We've simply discussed how we should react to poetry whilst Hub Hopping on this thread. Good, we went off on a tangent about how we could keep the poetry should it be considered substandard due to length, but as you say in another thread: '... everything you read on the forum is just speculation ...'

  10. rebekahELLE profile image90
    rebekahELLEposted 6 years ago

    I do know that Poetry is a huge category here, of which Paul Edmondson thought it worthy of noting in a recent interview; HP has the largest collection of poets online. Currently on the Topics (Poetry) page, there are 26,084 hubs published. In relation to other popular topics-

    Health- 122,948
    Religion and Philosophy - 37,092 hubs
    Personal Finance - 53,092 hubs
    Entertainment and Media- 68,183
    Politics and Social Issues- 37,860

    ?

  11. Cagsil profile image59
    Cagsilposted 6 years ago

    I have at least a dozen poetry hubs written. I will admit that many of them do not fit any particular word count, such as 300 words or more.

    Example: my "Inspiration" poem is one of my shortest poems, as is my poem on "Confusion" and "Beauty"(this hub has two poems because individually they are too short).

    However, I have my "Marriage", "Women" and "Nameless"(my longest poem of my life), have many words. wink

  12. aware profile image70
    awareposted 6 years ago

    for one word a man is often deemed to be wise, and for one word he is often deemed to be foolish. we ought to be careful ,indeed, what we say.

    1. WannaB Writer profile image92
      WannaB Writerposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Many poetry contests limit entries to something like 12-16 lines. (That's what I remember, but I could be wrong. I just knew my poems would be too long to meet the requirement. ) It seems, then, that short poems seem to be preferred  for contests.

  13. profile image0
    ralwusposted 6 years ago

    This has been the best site for me and my pomes. I have had the best of times and the best followers of all. I am leaving because of this thread. Too late now. I can't believe they haven't deleted me yet, so I just wanted you all to know. All my love and peace to all. Charlie

    1. rebekahELLE profile image90
      rebekahELLEposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      it's never too late.. don't leave because of a thread, the forums are but a small percentage of HP! I hope you reconsider. smile I think HP holds on situations like this in hopes it's not permanent.

      1. Poetic Muse profile image60
        Poetic Museposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        All these new rules make me depressed and angry.  I just had to 're-do' 64 poetry hubs to conform to the new rules.  I'm one of those people that feels a 3 line haiku on a page is enough. Anything else on that page is a distraction. And when I first joined that's just what I did. Then the rules kept shifting and I had to add a paragraph explaining why the haiku was so few words, add photos, add videos, blah blah blah.

        In a world where verbosity is king, and the more you write (even if its crap) the more google and hubpages loves you, it all becomes so nauseating.

        'verbosity-
        the quality or condition of wordiness; excessive use of words, especially unnecessary prolixity. — verbose, adj.'
        'prolixity- 1. Tediously prolonged; wordy: editing a prolix manuscript.
        2. Tending to speak or write at excessive length. See Synonyms at wordy.'

    2. manlypoetryman profile image77
      manlypoetrymanposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      This'n here juz' ain't right!

      http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_CT4y-UiwdC0/S6oTwLY2xiI/AAAAAAAACF4/vV6zKvIZBPQ/s1600/Hillbilly.jpg

      Whatz with all da' Poetry bashin' on the new fangled rules of Hub pages? Seems like Poetry is being singled out...and then it don't in the next sentence...? Now, my friend, C.C...done off and flew da' coop!?

      What in the name of blue blazes is going on...up n' here?

  14. Misha profile image75
    Mishaposted 6 years ago

    And so witch hunt continues... Bye Charlie, see you somewhere else in a more welcoming environment, old buddy smile

    1. Sufidreamer profile image82
      Sufidreamerposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Likewise - All the best, old friend, and let us know where you and your poems wash up. We'll arrange to have some whiskey waiting for you smile

      Don't know about you, Misha, but this is starting to remind me of the 100 in 30 Days challenge all over again. I fear that Charlie won't be the last fine writer to leave sad

      1. Misha profile image75
        Mishaposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        Me too, Sufi, me too...

      2. To Start Again profile image81
        To Start Againposted 6 years agoin reply to this


        sad I hope not. This has been an interesting discussion and one, I'm afraid, that has always been around in one form or another.

        Money making vs. fiction/creative writing...what's long enough/good enough/ etc.

        As a poetry writer myself, I understand both sides. The problem I think lies in the idea that poetry sometimes doesn't have 'set' rules to judge it by. Rhyming or not, short or long it is difficult to put specifications on poems. I do agree that very short poetry, such as a single haiku, may be a bit too small for a hub on its own and the 'several poems in one hub' idea would be great for that. But then you have to start getting into a word count issue and I would hate to have to try to fit a poem into a mold somebody else contrived. That just seems...wrong. hmm

        The sister site for creative writing....that would be nice if that were all I planned to write but I, along with others, tend to dabble in different genre's. I would have to split hubs between two sites? I don't think I would like that. Separating them some how on the same site though...

        and Charlie will back... smile

      3. Marisa Wright profile image99
        Marisa Wrightposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        I agree.  And the stupid thing is, the people flouncing off in high dudgeon had no reason to leave then, and have no reason to leave now. 

        I can't believe Ralwus up and left when there's been absolutely no suggestion from any member of the HubPages team that his Hubs were under threat.  Even reading this thread, I see no evidence of a "witch hunt" on poets, just a lot of people speculating.  Makes no sense to me.

  15. aware profile image70
    awareposted 6 years ago

    its a punch in the gut when what you thought was a group of your peers turn out to be a bunch of pompous flag bearers wanting to tell you how to write. I  remember the day well when a hub of mine  was pink boxed. above every emotion  it stirred, hurt  stood out  most . what i added to it to comply . was rant and fluff .and i feel took from its meaning. im not sure what charlies feeling  . when it happened to me . i felt betrayed and back stabbed. and  making others feel in such a way   is the substandard behavior in need of purging.

  16. Amanda Severn profile image100
    Amanda Severnposted 6 years ago

    I've about five shortish poems posted here. Now I'm wondering if they should be taken down, though I'm inclined to leave them unless specifically told otherwise.

  17. rebekahELLE profile image90
    rebekahELLEposted 6 years ago

    Janetta?  Is this the same Janetta??  big_smile  Welcome back!

    1. To Start Again profile image81
      To Start Againposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      yup, that's me big_smile Thanks!!

      1. rebekahELLE profile image90
        rebekahELLEposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        so happy to see you back!! we missed you! thanks for sharing on this thread.. now we know you are here again. big_smile  hopefully, ralwus will reload... his poetry!

        1. To Start Again profile image81
          To Start Againposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          thank you so much! I am very happy to be back big_smile

  18. CheyenneAutumn profile image58
    CheyenneAutumnposted 6 years ago

    I have never posted for money, neither have I read for money. If I had known it all had to be about money or a popularity contest I probably would not have even visited HubPages. I think the rule makers and self appointed flag setters are shooting themselves in the foot. I have many non-writting friends who visit not only my site but sites I like and share with them. That adds to the counts on those who do hub for money. But when snipeing cause someone like Charlie to leave I find little tollerance for those "self appointed" ones.
    Come back Charlie!

    1. camlo profile image87
      camloposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      We are all invited to Hub Hop. And when we flag, we are simply bringing a Hub to the moderators' attention. Moderators decide what to do with the Hub, not us. A lot of poetry is published on HubPages, and the rules regarding it were unclear to many of us. To save the moderators' time, we have found out (through this thread) when and when not to flag poetry Hubs.
      I don't think anyone on this thread wanted poets, or other creative writers, to take down their work. Quite the contrary, you'll find, if you read through this thread.
      As another Hubber has said, much of what is in the forum threads is speculation, and no Hubber should leave on grounds of that.
      BTW, I'm a creative writer myself.

      1. Sally's Trove profile image83
        Sally's Troveposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        The purpose of this thread was to find out if there were guidelines for flagging poetry Hubs. Now we know what those guidelines are, thanks to Paul Deeds.

        I started this thread because of a comment in another thread, whose topic was not poetry, which speculated about whether there might be a word count limit on poetry Hubs. It was right to start a separate thread about poetry in order to get guidance about what should be flagged or not. This thread was a request to eliminate speculation and ask for clarity, which it has done.

        No one participating in this thread suggested that any Hubber should take his work down. If there was sniping going on, it wasn't in this thread.

        1. camlo profile image87
          camloposted 6 years agoin reply to this
          1. lyndre profile image81
            lyndreposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            I used the link to this thread to show where Ralwus left his comment.
            I personaly think he overreacted. I agree with the OP Sallys Trove that clarity was all she was asking for.

            1. Sally's Trove profile image83
              Sally's Troveposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              Yes, clarity.

            2. frogdropping profile image87
              frogdroppingposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              This is sad news. But I understand why ralwus has done what he's done. I don't write poetry (though I have written the odd ditty in fun) as I'm not sure I understand it well enough to give it a real serious shot.

              However, one of my lasting memories during my time at school was reading the collection of poems written by Wilfred Owen. Due to the character of my grammar school teacher and her patience, I slowly grew to understand what Wilfred Owen was saying, what it was he was portraying. Back then, it gave me an insight into why poets are, and why they write as they do. Despite my continued ignorance to understand poetry in general (I now lack my wonderful teacher) I still find it a beautiful form of writing.

              Going back to ralwus and his decision, I have been musing the last couple of days on whether I should delete my own short, silly collection of fiction hubs, as I too was wondering where they fit in the HP. I remain unsure, on both counts.

              Whether or not anyone believes ralwus has overeacted or not, he is not a man lacking in intelligence or personal insight and I do believe he thought well before he made his decision.

              1. Sufidreamer profile image82
                Sufidreamerposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                I studied Wilfred Owen, too - it drove home the real horror of that conflict.

                Please don't take your fiction hubs down yet - I am hoping that HP will find a place for the creative writers and poets. I would like to start writing a few more Hubs about life in Greece, but I worry that they will be 'too personal.' smile

                1. frogdropping profile image87
                  frogdroppingposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  I have my very silly hubs, then I have my history ones and those relating to living as an expat. I love those you have written that are in relation to your life over there, and your cats smile

                  But ... I think we are living in confusing times hmm

                  Isn't that the title of a book sufi? Feel like it is, or should be if not smile

                  1. Sally's Trove profile image83
                    Sally's Troveposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                    We are indeed living in confusing times. This platform that we've chosen to carry our thoughts and words, HP, is living a confusion, too.

                    If we want security about something in life, then we can keep our blinders on and wish that things would be other than what they are.

                    It's time to roll with the punches and give our all in the process.

                  2. Sufidreamer profile image82
                    Sufidreamerposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                    That would be a good title - I am sure that you are the frog for the job, the one who can do the title justice!

                    Cats - I could write hundreds of Hubs about the little buggers. we have just had four new arrivals, so I will have to buy a new camera and take some piccies smile

              2. To Start Again profile image81
                To Start Againposted 6 years agoin reply to this



                You absolutely CAN NOT do that!! For anyone out there who has not read the stories of Kevin the Dragon or...ahem...the odes to some...ahem...rather interesting hubbers big_smile you absolutley must go and read. NOW.

                Froggy, I have always and will always love your style, you know that. And I would hate to see your fiction leave the site only because I know there are those who have not yet come across it who will love it all as much as I do!! And as many others do too!! big_smile kisses and hugs to you btw...

                1. frogdropping profile image87
                  frogdroppingposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                  Hey Jadwigga! We sure had fun lol smile I was sat looking them over last night, and the day before, wondering about them. They still get views, abeit very few but they remain the ones with the most comments funnily enough!

                  Maybe I should just write another one, for the heck of it, and in light of all the comings and goings 'Revolving Doors - There And Back Again' lol

                  1. To Start Again profile image81
                    To Start Againposted 6 years agoin reply to this



                    Bahahahaha yes, i think that would fit very nicely!!

                    The sad truth is that fiction and creative writing just doesn't always get the response other stuff does here. Our views will come mostly from within HP and that will gain us a following, yes but the views will fall not long after published and might not go up again. It is just how things go. sad

                  2. To Start Again profile image81
                    To Start Againposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                    and I'm still waiting for Kevin. It's A Dragon's World. To hit my local bookstore wink

      2. Sufidreamer profile image82
        Sufidreamerposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        I think that it's the idea that we have seen all this before rather than anything specific. A couple of years ago, as TonyMac mentioned, the site treated the people who were here to write, rather than make money, very badly.

        A lot of people felt that they had been pushed aside in the quest for quantity over quality. The wounds never really healed and perhaps the poets feel that they are now the new scapegoats. Personally, I think that the creative writers and poets add a richness to the community that cannot be measured in dollars and cents. We should count ourselves fortunate to have them - it was what always set HP above the competitors smile

        Now I must read your creative musings smile

        1. frogdropping profile image87
          frogdroppingposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          No 'like' button sufi smile I remember some of the good stuff. Many have indeed moved on sad

        2. To Start Again profile image81
          To Start Againposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          Sufi, you said it perfectly smile nerves are still a little raw I think from all of that.

          It still feels like a touchy subject sometimes. But we have to accept that each of us is here for his or her own reasons. We have our own style and that's what makes us great and what makes HP great. Moderating each other creates many gray areas  for us hubbers, along with helping out the powers that be. We each have our own thoughts, own ideas about what qualifies as good/acceptable/right. Causes some problems...

          1. Misha profile image75
            Mishaposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            More than it solves, IMO...

            Hi Janetta, welcome back smile

            1. To Start Again profile image81
              To Start Againposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              Thanks Misha! big_smile

              and agreed..IMO too wink

        3. Joy56 profile image62
          Joy56posted 6 years agoin reply to this

          Sufidreamer, you are such a gem, and people like you make life so much nicer for the poets too.  i would love to be able to write you, and as you said nowhere else we get opportunity to mingle so to speak, you are a true gentleman.

  19. tonymac04 profile image90
    tonymac04posted 6 years ago

    I am extremely, extremely sad that Charlie has left HP. There is something right awful that a writer as creative as he should feel so unwelcome here, on what is, I always thought, a creative writing site.
    Part of the issue is the definition of "quality" - are we talking about quality of writing or quality of using key words?
    To me quality of writing is paramount. I have seen some Hubs with appalling writing doing quite well because they used the right key words, while other writing of excellent quality does not do so well because of not using key words. That said I have also seen some excellent Hubs do quite well in spite of not using key words - so it's not a cut-and-dried thing.
    It is really sad, though, to see Charlie leave. He has been one of the real characters of HP, a writer who made a difference with his words and who was honest.
    This is the same debate which led Goldentoad to leave us. He is  now back but very quiet. He is a wonderful writer too. If HP does not have place for Charlie and Goldentoad then I think it is a disaster, really.
    I'm not planning to leave, but the thought has crossed my mind, I have to be honest.

    1. Sally's Trove profile image83
      Sally's Troveposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      I am very sorry that Charlie decided to leave. His works and his voice will be missed. I don't know why he felt unwelcome here, but I do know that nothing in this thread ever pointed a finger at him or at poetry as a genre on this site.

      Tony, you ask a good question about quality of key words vs quality of content. This site is on a fence...it promotes itself as a place for creative content, yet, of course, it needs to make money too, and with the google crap that happened, this is quite a test. I admire HP for their vision and also for their determination to ride out and eventually overcome this trying turn of events. There's a lot HP is struggling through, and consequently so are we.

      The thought has crossed my mind to leave, too. I'm glad it's just crossing our minds, yours and mine, and that neither of us is going to take action now. I think this site has vision and potential. I'm going along for the ride.

      One last thing...I am a huge fan of yours. Your Hubs have introduced me to a geographic world far away from mine and to an internal world of how the mind makes sense out of experience and thought.

    2. sligobay profile image75
      sligobayposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      I echo the sentiments of TonyMac.  I have received a notice from HP telling me that twenty of my Hubs are substandard in one fashion or another which is unexplained. Are there too many ads or too few words. If you are going to judge my work by any standard; please be specific and don't give me a list of five things and tell me too figure out the Google Farmer algorithm.
      One of my recent poems is four lines long- Trident. I consider it to be better than most of the poems that I have written.  There are comments adding words but I guess they don't count.  I don't use keywords in my poetry and my poems are not inspired by keywords.  I have been at Hubpages for three years and now one quarter of my hubs are judged as substandard. If product ads for Amazon make my Hubs substandard - I will remove all of my Amazon ads. I read- I comment-I create. I do not make money. I know how and choose not to invest my time writing the trash and drivel that generates organic search results and volume.  During the past six months - I have moved away from poetry and written more prose.  Poetry was my initiation to the Hub process.  I create Hubs. I mix words with images with original photos with poetry with discussion with literary reference. I insert some Amazon capsules with mostly book products which noone has ever bought.  I AM A HUBBER.  MY FRIENDS ARE HUBBERS TOO.  WE DEFINE HUBPAGES.
      The collage of media forms has become an artform and the simple platform is very much appreciated. I will not leave in a Huff. But I will resist the censorship Catering to the one true GOG of GOGLE.  Anyone can write a product promotion which was once referred to as an advertisement - then infomercial-now literature.  If you want a product circular - you will get your product circular.

      1. tonymac04 profile image90
        tonymac04posted 6 years agoin reply to this

        Good points Gerry! My Hub Author Score has tanked in recent weeks and I'm battling to understand why.
        I contacted HP staff who told me I was following too many fellow-Hubbers. I have radically pruned the number of Hubbers I am following (nothing personal, people, just trying to rescue my author score!) and still it continues to head south.
        I am not sure about the cause or the meaning of this. I am baffled.  think I write fairly well about things that I have an interest in and know something about. I am not one of those who writes about teapots and toasters. Not that I'm knocking those who do - it's just not my scene.
        I would really like to know what I am doing wrong or what I am not doing to cause my score to go so bad.
        I have been writing here for more than three years and except for the first year my score has never been this low.
        Is it the Google thing that has hit me, and how?

        1. Sally's Trove profile image83
          Sally's Troveposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          Tony, it's a real mystery to me why your profile score is so low. There is NOTHING substandard about any of your Hubs, in fact, quite the opposite. It doesn't make sense at all that your profile score is hovering so closely to that 75 mark.

          Since you've pruned the number of folks you follow, I think another email from you to the HP team is in order. This is crazy! Your Hubs epitomize the standards HP has set in the past and is working to refine for the future. It's an insane contradiction to read the HP's words on what constitutes a good Hub, experience your Hubs, and then see your profile score where it is and has been over the last weeks. Hopefully HP can be more specific about what's causing this disparity.

          1. tonymac04 profile image90
            tonymac04posted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Thanks for that, Sally. I will send them another mail and see what they come up with this time! It is a bit disheartening to see my score getting so low and not to know why!

      2. WannaB Writer profile image92
        WannaB Writerposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        You have expressed what I feel. This same pressure is hitting Squidoo, where I'm an angel who reads all new blogs on blogging tips. I cringe when I see some of the worst rising to the top of the subcategory just because they use keywords in the right places.

        I wasn't active here at the right time to see Charlie's work. I hadn't come across it yet. I know I've missed something by not seeing it. Good poets rarely make money unless they turn their poetry into songs and the right vocalists make those songs popular. Some of the poets we read in our texts died poor. Poetry isn't about money. Many poets are lucky if they can even find an audience today outside of other poets.

        I never used to think about categories, topics or keywords when I wrote. I wrote what was inside wanting to come out. I wrote about subjects dear to my heart. These subjects have always done best for me on Squidoo, but they often encompass more than one topic. Some incorporate music, weather and inspiration in one article. I write for people, not search engines, which is what search engines are supposed to love, but don't, unless you twist subheadings written for people to incorporate keywords wanted by these same search engines.

        Personally, unless I'm shopping, I don't read product reviews and ads. When hub hopping, I normally skip them. I like to read hubs with a human face that help me get to know the person writing a bit better -- even if it's a travel or education piece. If I want just the facts, I can use an encyclopedia or text book or any part of my vast library. And, please don't try to convince me to used the ebook or software you are peddling to automate my blogs by stitching together what your software finds spread throughout the Internet to write my blogs for me.

  20. aware profile image70
    awareposted 6 years ago

    if you have issue with a hub  . you first post constructive criticism in a comment . you read what others have said in comments from the writer .You post a forum question asking  others what they think so transparency known .you display civility. what you don't do is anomalously flag  material that doesn't meet your standard or taste.

    1. camlo profile image87
      camloposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Have you read about what Hub Hopping is? This:

      The HubPages Hopper is a Hub discovery tool that allows you to quickly browse through and read a random assortment of Hubs that have been published recently, especially in the topics that you are following. Frequent Hoppers also help the HubPages community by rating up the best new hubs, and also rating down or flagging poor or inappropriate Hubs that don't meet with the conditions of the HubPages Terms of Service.

    2. Sally's Trove profile image83
      Sally's Troveposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      I don't think "flags" are anonymous. When you flag, the HP Team knows who you are. The flag system is in place for a good reason; this is a site that relies on its members for feedback and quality control.

      In the old fashioned publishing world I come from, where editors and proofreaders control the quality of what gets published, there would never be an article or book that got published without stringent review.

      HP is venturing into uncharted waters, and it's a privilege to have this site available and to partake in it. HP is looking for "globally" accepted traits that pass muster for appropriateness. The flagging system is part of HP's strategy for maintaining and improving its site.

  21. skyfire profile image75
    skyfireposted 6 years ago

    I think you're missing drama here on forums. There was one thread few days ago where hubber attacked one poet who posted his haiku. If you know the length haiku usually carries then you can understand the attack against poet was really uncalled for. This is just one example and you can guess how many other poets are likely to affect in this witchhunt.

    I'm sure next wave is going to be against affiliate links(because staff posted so) and religious hubs. All those with product hubs are going to get judged by people who are not buyers but fellow writers on the same site. It's all going to reflect in quantcast.

    I know your intention was to get clarity for the hubhopping. If you want any clear answer in near future then it's always better to contact hubpages staff instead of from folks who are worried about their share on this site. Just Saying..

    1. Sally's Trove profile image83
      Sally's Troveposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      "Just saying" is good. We've all got a right to say.

      I'm not missing drama on forums at all, and in fact saw that horrible diatribe about that haiku.

      So, when I started this thread, I hoped it wouldn't pave a road to drama, but it did.

      I could, surely, have contacted HP via email to ask for guidance on how to effectively HubHop poetry, but if I did, then what would the HP community have gained by what I learned, privately, in an email response?

      The need for clarity was there, and a forum thread was the effective way to get that clarity.

    2. lrohner profile image81
      lrohnerposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Nice thought, but it doesn't work. I know that I contacted the HP team last month with a particular question about whether something should be flagged or not. I got back (sorry, HP team!) drivel that didn't even begin to answer my question. And I sent them a note back to that effect.

      They don't give much direction on hubhopping at all. And to be honest, it really doesn't matter much. Flagging a hub is meaningless. It's what the human reviewer does that matters.

      1. Sally's Trove profile image83
        Sally's Troveposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        There is a "cautious speak" (drivel works, too) that HP has to use when it doesn't have concrete answers but must make some kind of communication. HP is not our best friend, but our business partner.

        I think Hub flagging has not been pointless. Actions have been taken by HP as a result. If it is pointless, then HP should get rid of this option.

  22. Mark Knowles profile image59
    Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago

    Ralwus is gone?

    Hmmmmmm. Why is that?

    1. frogdropping profile image87
      frogdroppingposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Some feel that hubhopping is getting into a witch hunt. That is an assumption on my part, just kinda looks that way sad

  23. profile image0
    Sophia Angeliqueposted 6 years ago

    Well, for anything to be classified substandard, there have to be standards. I don't believe I've ever encountered standards for poetry anywhere. I think it's exempt.

    1. Sally's Trove profile image83
      Sally's Troveposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      I think you are right. Unless a poetry Hub violates TOS dictates like adult content or gambling or copyright infringement (or fill in those blanks), it's good to go.

      This is refreshing. So long as a writer categorizes a Hub as poetry, anything is possible.

  24. Sally's Trove profile image83
    Sally's Troveposted 6 years ago

    A very good thing that's come out of this thread is HP's affirmation that poetry has a home on HP without being governed by the "Low Quality" standard that appears when flagging:

    "Low Quality-Is very short, contains a large number of broken links or videos, is poorly formatted, or consists of unoriginal, nonsensical, difficult to read, or purely personal content"

    The other standards, Adult, Abuse, Miscategorized, Gambling, Spam, Not written in English, and Other still apply, if I've understood correctly.

    This was the guidance sought for in the OP.

    1. camlo profile image87
      camloposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Yes, Paul Deeds clarified this in this comment on this thread:

      If a poetry hub violates other rules of the site, it should certainly be flagged as such.  But, flagging a poem you think is bad as "low quality" is not productive.

      1. Sally's Trove profile image83
        Sally's Troveposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        Thanks for quoting Paul's words. smile

        1. camlo profile image87
          camloposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          I just think it's a good idea to bring Paul's words to the surface - it seems there are still Hubbers who think their poetry will have to go because it's pulling down the site, which just isn't true and was never said.

          1. Sally's Trove profile image83
            Sally's Troveposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            I agree. Some folks took the point of this inquiry, and other things said in other threads, in an unfortunate way.

            I'm glad this thread brought clarification from HP.

  25. Mark Ewbie profile image87
    Mark Ewbieposted 6 years ago

    I think it is reasonable to pose the question, and reasonable to expect views for and against.  Especially when poetry seems to be outside the usual limit of word length. To be honest, word length is a pretty pathetic measure of anything anyway - 100 words of wit versus 2,000 words of crap.  Who's to judge?

    Well apart from Google obviously - peopled by a bunch of schoolkid morons who wouldn't recognize a thing of quality and beauty if it was backlinked and stapled to their ass.

    But I digress.

    I am musing over writing a poem about the iPad2 and whether I could 1. express myself fully in this medium and 2. make some quick bucks out of it.

    ps. I didn't mean to offend anyone by this.  Apart from Google of course.

    1. Sally's Trove profile image83
      Sally's Troveposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Mark, I think you could, quite nicely. smile

      1. Mark Ewbie profile image87
        Mark Ewbieposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        Thanks Sally.  I am sorely tempted.  My first poem and you guys can't touch it because it's art.

        Sample... do not steal.  Bear in mind it doesn't have to rhyme either.

        I want an iPad2
        But I also want an iPhone

        By Mark Ewbie.

        1. camlo profile image87
          camloposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          Add a '5' to the 'iPhone' - that'll get you 1,000,000 views within 2 weeks. You could also see what happens with another such little ditty for the future iPhone6.

        2. Aware1 profile image59
          Aware1posted 6 years agoin reply to this

          wow, that could actually be a great typical sales hub. Just pop an ipad2 photo on the hub and copy ipad2, ipad2, ipad2 (187 times) in the text capsule and put up an amazon link....

          Got yourself a sales hub! wink

          OH, actually, since you'll have 200 words, you can have 4 amazon products! Do a backlinking campaign... maybe 7000 profile links and you all set lol

          1. Mark Ewbie profile image87
            Mark Ewbieposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Thanks Aware, I need to go and have a little think.

    2. lyndre profile image81
      lyndreposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Remember 50 words per amazon
      try it if you can.
      If you don,t meet the quota
      your hub goes down the pan.

      smile

      1. Mark Ewbie profile image87
        Mark Ewbieposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        Oh.  There's some serious competition here.  Not as easy as I thought.

        1. ThomasE profile image75
          ThomasEposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          Hm, I wrote my first sales poem on the forum a month or so ago, but for some reason people didn't appreciate it, due to the lack of rhyme or reason.

          I will try again, with a review poem

          To buy or not to buy
          That is the Question,
          Whether it is nobler in the face to suffer
          the slings of outrageous weight gain.
          or take pills against a sea of truffles,
          and buy, opposing them we will
          no more and so a spend we say to send
          the flab aches and a thousand natural remedies,
          that flesh is fair to, tis a consolidation
          devotely to be wished .

          1. Mark Ewbie profile image87
            Mark Ewbieposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            good stuff ThomasE...

            1. ThomasE profile image75
              ThomasEposted 6 years agoin reply to this

              I'm thinking of outsourcing the sales poems to China. If I can get some sweat shop labour to write them for 1p a poem, I think I might be able to make some money.

              1. Mark Ewbie profile image87
                Mark Ewbieposted 6 years agoin reply to this

                Sadly, that may be true.

  26. Sally's Trove profile image83
    Sally's Troveposted 6 years ago

    What interesting ways to slide under the radar, by categorizing a sales Hub as poetry. This is all good food for thought. I don't read a lot of poetry on HP or anywhere else, being poetry-challenged, but I don't recall ever seeing a poem here with affiliate capsules, using poetry to disguise the intent. Hmmmmm....

    And BTW, Mark, I was looking for something more like an epic poem from you. I mean, iPad2 has quite a history, rife with warring factions, dramatic tensions surrounding success or failure, opportunism, marketing, strategies of all sorts, and good and evil characters...up to the challenge? smile

    1. Mark Ewbie profile image87
      Mark Ewbieposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Epic is not usually associated with my stuff.  But who knows what heights I could reach with this.

      IF I write one, I'll let you know via the usual look at me spamming method.

      1. Sally's Trove profile image83
        Sally's Troveposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        Looking forward to it.

  27. sligobay profile image75
    sligobayposted 6 years ago

    Ode to Ralwus

    With all the strain your illness wrought
    Google's algorithm fraught
    With lofty goals of relevance
    Hubpages folds to happenstance;

    Mssrs Paul Deeds and Edmondson
    The whip of Google just begun
    to let the blood of HP's heart
    Charlie Ralwus is just the start;

    Kowtow not to the GOG grog
    false content standards just smog
    Adsense monopoly their play
    Squeeze page Amazon and Ebay;

    Search engine supremacy rules
    Render all to be Google's fools;
    Stand your ground with all your might
    Dump adsense; hire facebook; and fight.

    sligobay

  28. profile image0
    BenjaminBposted 6 years ago

    There is a solution that everyone is overlooking here. Those who believe poetry has no place here and those who think it does and even those on the fence. Why not instead of publishing each short poem on it's own just compile hubs to be collections of your shorter poetry.

    I don't know if poetry gets a ton of visits from search engines,I've read that it does not. If that's the case then compilations with a great hub title might even garner better results for the poet.

    Makes all the sense in the world to me. Poets still get to showcase their work and possibly gain more viewers.

    1. tonymac04 profile image90
      tonymac04posted 6 years agoin reply to this

      I agree with this and have in fact done exactly that with some of my short poems. Not that I have all that many poems here as poetry is not my main focus.

    2. Marisa Wright profile image99
      Marisa Wrightposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      This solution has been suggested a few times, including on this thread, but for some reason poets don't seem keen on it.

      I don't know why - after all, if their poems were published in a book, they would likely be grouped together in chapters or sections.  Why not here? 

      As you say, because the Hub would have more words, it would stand a much better chance of getting readers, too.

      1. profile image0
        BenjaminBposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        Lol Marissa you mean I was supposed to read every post tongue  Makes all the sense in the world to me.

      2. BenWritings profile image80
        BenWritingsposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        I see your point, but for me PERSONALLY, I don't like to combine poems very often, because I like to express a strong, particular feeling. Adding other poems kinda seems to water down the effect. Normally though, my poems are fairly long, or at least long enough to not be considered "overly short".

  29. BenWritings profile image80
    BenWritingsposted 6 years ago

    Reading this thread has left a bad taste in my mouth, especially considering how much I enjoyed ralwus's work.

    I can't believe this discussion ever even came up...poetry is EXPRESSION, it shouldn't be torn apart and analyzed for WORD COUNT.

    I would rather read someone's feelings and ideas, than read a hub about how to make money, and how to write "GREAT HUBS"

    Ugh, this is sickening

    If a hub is CLEARLY someone's expressions and feelings, it should NEVER be considered substandard.

    1. profile image0
      BenjaminBposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Unfortunately this is a business. As such anything that is the greater good of keeping the machine moving forward that benefits the business owner and the majority of the people involved happy and productive is what will prevail.

      If people are not in this but to have their poetry shared there are many platforms to have this done for free where it's not money driven and they could actually be even more creative. Someone could easily start their own blog with a number of sites or even a free sub domain.

      I have no opinion either way,but I'm in this to make money and anything that pulls Hubpages down in that regard will hurt my endeavors as well. That's the point of view everyone is coming from I believe.

      To take it personally is something I can't understand. After all Hub Pages main advertising does say Make Money Writing Online,not come and put a ton of stuff on our site that makes no one any money. Not to say some of the poets here have had no success with Adsense (I have no idea),but that's the norm with that sort of writing overall from what I've read.

      1. BenWritings profile image80
        BenWritingsposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        poetry is a large part of hubpages.

        if we weren't supposed to write it, they wouldn't have made it a topic, would they

        1. profile image0
          BenjaminBposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          Never said it was a forbidden topic,but in the context of business things change. No one on Hubpages or that runs Hubpages wanted Google to make the changes in a manner that affected how search engines perceive poetry as content.

          Like any business Hubpages may be faced with some tough decisions for the greater whole and their own survival as a thriving venture due to changes out of their hands.

          Not saying it's right,not saying I agree. facts however are facts!

        2. saddlerider1 profile image72
          saddlerider1posted 6 years agoin reply to this

          Ben you are absolutely correct, Poetry is a category and there are many fine poets at the hubs I have had the pleasure to read and share my work with. It's sad to see Ralwus leave, he has contributed his talent here in a big way. He is a one of a kind expressionist here, a different slant on verse and prose, yet a wonderful writer. I have skipped many an article which is simply copy and pasted at the Hubs. I suppose they feel the more they can add to the hubs the quicker  their Adsense cents will accumulate. There is room here for all truly CREATIVE writers like yourself Ben and Sligobay, Nellieanna, Wayne Brown, Genna East just to name a few. They are wonderful expressive, talented poets and prose writers. It would be a shame to see them pull up stakes and leave like Ralwus. I believe their is a misunderstanding, Poetry is not being shelved here, simply suggesting that it not be to short. Many serious talented poets I follow are easily beyond 200 words. I rarely write a poem shorter than this count. I hope Poetry remains a category, if not I have no problem removing my works and putting them all on my own site.

          1. camlo profile image87
            camloposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            But this thread moves on from the post you're quoting, and confirms that poetry is very welcome on HubPages, will continue to be, and that w/c rules don't apply to it.

            1. saddlerider1 profile image72
              saddlerider1posted 6 years agoin reply to this

              Thank you camlo for the clarification. I am pleased that Poetry will remain welcomed here, I enjoy sharing my soul and life experiences with fellow poets as well as article writers. We all have a voice and as I said there are many talented writers in all categories. With respect, your humble poet.

    2. Sally's Trove profile image83
      Sally's Troveposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      The purpose of this thread was to get guidance from HP about what might constitute a substandard ("substandard" being one of the categories available when a Hub is flagged) poetry Hub, because there had been no guidance specific to poetry. In addition, questions about word count in poetry and non-poetry Hubs had been raised in other threads.

      HP responded here, saying that word count is not an issue in a Hub that is categorized as poetry. However, if a poetry Hub, "...violates other rules of the site...", then that is a reason to flag.

      A helpful thread that appeared after this one was a discussion about whether the word "substandard" should be replaced with "non-compliant".

      http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/70692

      Jason contributed to that thread by saying, "We are working at creating more moderation categories..."

      This is all positive news for HP as a site where poets can continue to have a showcase for their works, and where another's subjective opinion alone is not a reason to flag a poetry Hub.

      This is clarification that was needed.

      1. BenWritings profile image80
        BenWritingsposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        thanks :]

        1. Sally's Trove profile image83
          Sally's Troveposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          You are very welcome. smile

  30. Flightkeeper profile image75
    Flightkeeperposted 6 years ago

    Okay, I just found out that Ralwus is gone and I'm pissed.  I think Hubpages should change something if poetry was found to be substandard.  All or most of Ralwus's work was probably deemed to be substandard and is what made him leave. 

    A haiku should stand alone by itself in a hub.  Helloooooo! A haiku was made for brevity. roll

    Geez you go away for a week and crap happens.

    I like Hubpages for its mix of hubs from creative to informational.  The question is does Hubpages itself want that mix or does it want to please Google and concentrate on SEO words to get traffic and increase rank?  You can't do both.

    1. rebekahELLE profile image90
      rebekahELLEposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      FK, he didn't leave because HP did anything. This is what he said earlier in this thread.

      http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/70209?p … ost1530773

      We all know he was a great member of the HP writing community.
      It's been a little crazy around here.

      If you read comments above that post, you'll see HP staff member's comments.

      http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/70209?p … st1530525.

      1. Flightkeeper profile image75
        Flightkeeperposted 6 years agoin reply to this

        So Ralwus left because of the thread.  My apologies to Hubpages.

        Frankly, I don't think poetry should be flagged substandard unless it's obvious that it's just a bunch of unreadable, illegible pap.  Has anyone been to a poetry slam lately?  Criminy some of it is so bad!  But it's a subjective thing and poets and other creative writers should not be made to feel unwelcome.  Poetry and prose are tough things to flag and can't be subjected to word counts.  Even mispellings and gross sentence structure have been used for effect.

        1. rebekahELLE profile image90
          rebekahELLEposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          Yes, apparently that is why he left, hopefully he will come back.
          He is missed. sad

          If I flag hubs or profiles, it's because it's obvious spam or has abused terms of use.  I don't flag poetry. There's enough here to flag without going after poetry. 

          If you read the HP blog, you can catch up on some of the changes taking place.

          1. Flightkeeper profile image75
            Flightkeeperposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Thank you but I'll pass.  Too much is going on and I've already wasted enough time. smile

            I'll waste time the way I like, by pissing off Libs wink

  31. To Start Again profile image81
    To Start Againposted 6 years ago

    I once read a poem by Tom Rubenoff (an amazingly talented poet btw) that had only three lines but was one of the most powerful pieces I have ever read. He said so much in so little. I think it is this idea that turns poets off from the thought of a word count guideline. Poetry is subjective. And not based on amount of words, length of stanzas or set up it follows. What Tom said in three lines (and not many more words) said more than a hundred words from others.

  32. Joy56 profile image62
    Joy56posted 6 years ago

    Thanks for directing me to this thread.  I am sorry about Ralwus departure, and hope he saved his work somewhere......

      you have to remember when dealing with poets that they are of a very sensitive nature.... this is a most useful thread.  cheers

  33. profile image0
    philip carey 61posted 6 years ago

    Poetry, to me, is a sort of condensed expression. I've enjoyed writing and posting poems on here. Attempting to write poetry has helped me appreciate great poets more. To create such beauty with words is truly a gift. There are a couple poetry writers on here that I thought were unusually talented. I hope I can continue reading them.

  34. Trish_M profile image83
    Trish_Mposted 6 years ago

    I have felt the need for some guidance regarding 'flagging' whilst hub hopping.

    It seemed clear that poetry could not be judged as other hubs are. I feel rather the same way about what seem to be short religious tracts for the day.

    I recently discovered that it was ok to just post photos.

    But some hubs do seem to need looking at, for various reasons. I don't think that it is wrong to ask for guidance, or that hubbers should take offense just because a question is asked.

    Poetry seems to be very welcome on the site, so I don't know why poets should decide to leave ~ unless there is something going on that I am not aware of??

    I think it's best to just have one poem per hub. I also like some of the little intros, etc ~ not because they increase word count, but because they can, at times, add extra depth smile

 
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