Plagiarist Stealing Entire HP Site

1. 32

   Writer Foxposted 10 years ago

   A guy in Saudi Arabia is stealing the entire HubPages site.  If you have a Hub, it has been stolen. You can find the URL of your stolen Hubs by following the navigation from this topic page:
   http://     hla7.com/hub/index.php?q=uggc%3A%2F%2Fuhocntrf.pbz%2Fgbcvpf%2Fnyy%2F1
   (remove spaces)
   
   The site is hosted by Unified Layer, which is a known thief of entire websites and installer of malware, according to spamhaus.org. Unified Layer is a reseller of hosting services from Hostgator. File your DMCA requests on this form:
   http://www.hostgator.com/dmca
   
   It would be so simple for HP just to block these IP addresses from accessing the site:
   ns6541.hostgator.com
   ns6542.hostgator.com

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   1. 67

      quiterandomposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Wow, terrible. Thanks for the heads up and resources.

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   2. 59

      AMAZING THINKERposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      It's a mirror copy!
      Where is the staff??

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   3. 72

      AMFredenburgposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      HubPages needs to do something about this as a company; letting its writers try to fight this on its own is ridiculous. I've hesitated to put a lot of effort into writing for HubPages because of this type of issue, and while I've got a list of articles I want to put onto the site I am very reluctant to do so if this is not addressed at the highest level of HubPages.

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   4. 86

      DzyMsLizzyposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Google FAIL.  If they are so good at penalizing--then they should see the newer date on that site, and penalize their rankings, as stolen content....

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         aa liteposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         How do you know Google is not doing that?  Are we being outranked by the thief?

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   5. 94

      PegCole17posted 10 years agoin reply to this

      A Hub Pages friend went out to the site and found every one of my hubs out there. Yikes. What concerns me is that we are giving this thief a LOT of traffic views! That is exactly what they want.

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   6. 59

      AMAZING THINKERposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Everyone, Just as a precaution, change your IP address.
      
      
      1. Click on "Start" in the bottom left hand corner of screen
      2. Click on "Run"
      3. Type in "cmd" and hit ok
      
      You should now be at an MSDOS prompt screen.
      
      Type "ipconfig /release" just like that, and hit "enter"
      Type "exit" and leave the prompt
      Right-click on "Network Places" or "My Network Places" on your desktop.
      Click on "properties"
      
      You should now be on a screen with something titled "Local Area Connection", or something like that, and, if you have a network hooked up, all of your other networks.
      
      Right click on "Local Area Connection" and click "properties"
      Double-click on the "Internet Protocol (TCP/IP)" from the list under the "General" tab
      Click on "Use the following IP address" under the "General" tab
      Create an IP address (It doesn't matter what it is. I just type 1 and 2 until i fill the area up).
      Press "Tab" and it should automatically fill in the "Subnet Mask" section with default numbers.
      Hit the "Ok" button here
      Hit the "Ok" button again
      
      You should now be back to the "Local Area Connection" screen.
      
      Right-click back on "Local Area Connection" and go to properties again.
      Go back to the "TCP/IP" settings
      This time, select "Obtain an IP address automatically"
      Hit "Ok"
      Hit "Ok" again
      You now have a new IP address.

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      1. 89

         findwholenessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Why is this necessary?

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      2. 67

         quiterandomposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Yeah, this has nothing to do with hubpages, and only changes your local (i.e., the IP address of your computer BEHIND your router) I.P. address. This will not affect anything.
         
         Actually, reading your post, you may cause peopel to NOT be able to connect to the internet anymore. Changing your IP address to something random doesn't work. It must be part of your local IP address schema, such as 192.168.0.XXX, the x's being between 0 and 255 (usually 0 is your router) and can not have the same numbers as another device on your local network. The first 3 sets of numbers must be the same as your local network domain, or you will not be able to connect.
         
         This is bad advice. Do not follow it.
         
         Once you hit the "obtain ip address automatically" in his last step, the router will probably just assign you the same IP you had before, anyway, so you will either be offline and not remember how to get back to being assigned an IP address, or will just have the same ip address as before, or be assigned a new one in the same private ip address block, none of which help with anything.

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   7. 79

      Vinaya Ghimireposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      I can see my entire sub-domain being stolen.Thanks for letting us know.

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      1. 83

         Faith Reaperposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Is that site keeping our user names or changing the authors to the hubs? Sorry, I am afraid to click on that site.

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            Thelma Albertsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            Me, too Faith Reaper.

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2. 38

   ChristinSposted 10 years ago

   Last time it was France.  Interesting. Thanks for posting the link to file the DMCA. You do have to wonder sometimes if HP staff really does anything at all to help stop scraping. It seems to happen a lot and filling out all these complaints gets tiresome.

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3. 72

   brakel2posted 10 years ago

   Is the owner in another country?  Or the server itself?  Thanks for info.

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      Writer Foxposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      The owner is in Saudi Arabia; the hosting company is American.

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4. 72

   brakel2posted 10 years ago

   Is the owner in another country?  Or the server itself?  Thanks for info.

   replyreport
5. 95

   alexadryposted 10 years ago

   Oh my, how can these people not get in trouble? I mean this is stealing not 1-2 articles, but the whole site along with pictures, logos etc!

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   1. 38

      ChristinSposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      If enough people file complaints it should be taken down pretty quickly.  People in other countries often don't concern themselves with our copyright laws as they are pretty much untouchable.  He'll probably do it again with a different domain and host etc.

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      1. 59

         AMAZING THINKERposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         It has happened before to a popular tech blog: Digital Inspiration (labnol.org).
         All HP has to do is file a complain to Google, they'll penalize it. Then contact the owner/ Host. It's obvious who is the real owner, so it should be taken down pretty quick!!

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6. 86

   innerspinposted 10 years ago

   I checked half a dozen of my hubs and they don't seem to be copied. Thanks for the info though, will stay alert.

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   1. 67

      quiterandomposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      @ innerspin, no sir, they are all copied.
      All of yours.
      
      They are here:
      
      http://hla7.   com/hub/index.php?q=uggc%3A%2F%2Fuhocntrf.pbz%2Ffrnepu%2Fvaarefcva
      
      Copy this and paste it in your browser, remove the spaces between the hla7. and the com.

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      1. 86

         innerspinposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         quiterandom thanks, found them now. Maybe they've not been crawled yet. I'll get on the case filing complaints, and by the way, I'm female Appreciate your help.

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            quiterandomposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            Sorry, Ma'am.

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7. 73

   Jenn-Anneposted 10 years ago

   I wonder if this is partly to blame for my traffic falling way off this weekend...

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      paradigmsearchposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Same here. It's not just us being robbed blind. HubPages is being robbed blind of real money as well.

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      quiterandomposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      My traffic, small as it was, completely fell off the map this weekend.
      I have not seen the hla7 site come up in my google searches, though.

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      1. 74

         CraftytotheCoreposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         All of my traffic halted and dropped.  Now I'm only seeing blue arrows down the page.

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            jansharesposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            We also haven't had a stat update in 37 hours so that may be contributing.

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               CraftytotheCoreposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               Thank you!  I surely hope so.

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   3. 32

      Writer Foxposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      The traffic to most of my Hubs falls off on Fridays and Saturdays, but then picks back up on Sundays.  Since stats haven't been updated in 14 hours, I don't know my traffic status today. Plagiarized pages don't have to out-rank your Hubs in search results to have a negative effect behind the scenes in the Google algorithm.

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         quiterandomposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Right, I wasn't implying they had to. Just their existence can pull traffic away.

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   4. 89

      findwholenessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      I was wondering why mine was falling, too.

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8. 72

   brakel2posted 10 years ago

   If Writer Fox says whole site copied, believe him.  The reason I say this is sometimes it does not show up. My copied site at blogger did not show up. I found it by accident.

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9. 67

   quiterandomposted 10 years ago

   My hubs are not showing up at that site in google search... yet.
   They are there, but have not been crawled or indexed by google yet, apparently.

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      AMAZING THINKERposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      It has a alexa rank of 266,541.
      A lot of people are visiting that site.

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      1. 67

         quiterandomposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Well, one of my hubs is first in google and bing searches, and I did not see the fake hub in the first few pages of either.
         
         I have a feeling it will gain though, if not killed quickly.

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   2. STAFF

      pauldeedsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      You can google "site:hla7.com/hub/" and see that only 70 pages have been crawled and indexed between about september 27 and october 3 (based on the cache dates I looked at), and most of them are topic pages not hubs.  Whoever is running that site appear to now be redirecting all those urls to site16.net, so it seems like they've probably gotten the message.   
      
      It's very unlikely that this would have any impact on search traffic, and it is essentially impossible to prevent this sort of thing technically.  It's worth monitoring for a bit, but at this point I don't think there is much to be gained by more Hubber's visiting the site or filing DMCA complaints. There is more information on content theft in the Learning Center that may be worth reading.

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         Writer Foxposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         If you go to the bottom of the site16 site, you'll see Squidoo and Hubpages on the bottom menu.  The Hubpages link redirects back to site16, but the Squidoo link goes to a scraped version of the Squidoo website.  Looks like they've started to scrape that one now.  Someone who contributes to that website should post a notice on the Squidoo forum.

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      2. 90

         Rock_njposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         How about making copying from HubPages impossible.  I have been on sites that do not allow you to highlight and copy content.  What is stopping HP from doing this?  It would cut down on the scraping.

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         1. STAFF

            pauldeedsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            You can work around that by simply fetching the HTML of the Hub using a bot, by disabling javascript, or any number of other ways.  So all it really prevents is manual cutting and pasting of text from your Hub by non-technically sophisticated people, who may have perfectly legitimate reason to do so (such as quoting a sentence or two).  Anyway, that's definitely not what is happening here or with most of the other sites that people complain about as being mass plagiarists.
            
            You can flip this around and look at being scraped from as a compliment and a sign of success.  It happens all the time to every popular, high traffic, content site.  Take a sentence from any old New York Times article from the last week or two and you'll find copies all over the internet.  Do you think that's something they worry about?  Do they have a team of people filing DMCA complaints?  I very much doubt it.

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               Rock_njposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               How about if HP changes to a database served HTML environment, such as ASP, so the HTML can't just be downloaded?  Would that help?  Somebody must be working on a way to protect published content on the Internet.  There would be huge demand for a solution to this too easy to copy problem.

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               1. STAFF

                  pauldeedsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  There is talk of building DRM into HTML5, at least for video.  If you can do it for video, you can certainly do it for text and images too.  I believe there are already ways to protect pdfs (and ebooks).   But DRM is not really compatible with getting traffic from search engines, and of course is also not particularly consumer friendly.

                  replyreport
10. 32

    Writer Foxposted 10 years ago

    Under Islamic law, thieves in some countries get their hand chopped off. Since there are several men named Bader Fahad, I would like the authorities to have the correct address of the content thief.  He is:
    
    Bader Fahad
    Aljzaeer Street Box 52169
    Mkkah
    Makkkah
    21955
    Saudi Arabia
    Phone:         +966.503595080
    
    Anyone having business dealings with this man should know that you are dealing with a thief.
    
    Now, hopefully this post will show up on search engines when people search for his name.

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       quiterandomposted 10 years agoin reply to this

       Tempted to make a quick website with this information that points to this thread to help google realize how important this is in it's searches...
       I'll see what I can do after lunch.

       replyreport
11. 72

    brakel2posted 10 years ago

    My traffic was better but now is in the doldrums. We must make that site disappear.

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12. 86

    DzyMsLizzyposted 10 years ago

    *&)(*(#$@(*%#@$#@$&*(#$@*&#$@*^$#!@!!!!!!
    
    Just what we don't need!!  And with over 200 hubs, I'd have to file a separate DCMA for each one??!!  That sucks the big one!!
    
    Should Hub Pages not be acting on this post-haste, in in their own best interests, if not in ours????

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       findwholenessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

       When I filed, I just submitted the link to my profile, not each separate hub.

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          brakel2posted 10 years agoin reply to this

          My traffic is cut in half. I wonder if this is the cause. How does traffic look for others?

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13. 86

    DzyMsLizzyposted 10 years ago

    By the way--the OP says that in addition to the plagiarism, this site is a "known installer of malware."  So---perhaps we are at risk of infecting our computers simply by following the link to that site to check for stolen content!!
    
    I think it has already hit and affected HP, or perhaps my computer--for when I hit the 'reply' button under the OP, I was instead returned to the HP main news feed page!! 
    That's why I've put this as a separate post, as I was unable to post it as a reply to the OP in that location (top of page)
    I'm going to run my virus scanner/fixer now!

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    1. 32

       Writer Foxposted 10 years agoin reply to this

       The distributor of malware was the pass-through hosting company, in other words, the reseller of hostgator's hosting service.  The site itself is hosted on hostgator's servers and that is a highly reputable company. 
       
       (I run a virus scanner about a dozen times a day, just because I'm all over the Internet looking at competitor's sites, etc.)

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14. 82

    tillsontitanposted 10 years ago

    It happens over and over again.  Maybe it's because we're so good
    Thanks for the up-date.

    replyreport
15. 94

    jansharesposted 10 years ago

    My traffic looks the same (not that great) but my hub scores have dropped, best performing hub by 9 points. This happened within hours, not even overnight.

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16. 61

    Froggy213posted 10 years ago

    Thanks Writer Fox--I promptly filed DMCA with Hostgator--I just filed on my profile and explained to them he copied my whole subdomain.
    
    I do believe that this is where Hubpages should be doing the battle for us.

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       DzyMsLizzyposted 10 years agoin reply to this

       My question to you disappeared...I was asking how to file a DCMA on your whole profile?
       
       The complaint form reads thusly: 
       "Identify the material that you claim is infringing the copyrighted work listed in item #1 above. You must identify each web page that allegedly contains infringing material. This requires you to provide the URL for each allegedly infringing result, document or item.
       
       Location (URL) of infringing third party content. (Please enter one URL per line)"
       
       (bold/italic emphases are mine.) I have over 200 hubs--I don't have time to do that!!

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          Froggy213posted 10 years agoin reply to this

          By putting your profile and explaining that you are the subdomain owner, you also explain that all articles attached to said subdomain are also copied--Hostgator will figure it out and there is a good chance they will cut his hosting.

          replyreport
17. 67

    awareposted 10 years ago

    i had over 70 poems and short story's on this site. the reason i took most down is for two reasons. the first being unfair content editing . the second is for theft of  content ideas. people use this medium as a content farm. like  kids in school writing book reports  by just rearranging words from a encyclopedia. sorry if i digressed .

    replyreport
18. 60

    Niki Holleyposted 10 years ago

    I JUST signed up for HP a couple hours ago. I haven't even decided what to write a hub about. This is the kind of stuff that makes me want to just shut it down and walk away.

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    1. 78

       LeanManposted 10 years agoin reply to this

       Hi Niki, don't give in before you even start.. This sort of thieving happens all of the time online, people will steal whole pages, paragraphs from your work or even whole books will be regurgitated on someones website..
       Sometimes this is done by someone that really does not understand that they are stealing and other times it is done by assholes like this who think they can get rich quick of of someone else's hard work..
       
       That being said Google is not that stupid, they can and do manage to identify the original piece of work and generally the copies are rarely sent traffic.

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19. 91

    Carola Finchposted 10 years ago

    Here is a fast and easy way to copy link addresses.  Go to your "My Hub Statistics" page.  Right click with your mouse on the name of the article.  On the menu, click on "copy link address."  Presto, you have copied the link address and can paste it anywhere -word, text, whatever.  Then when you have your list, just cut and paste into the HubPages form.

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20. 86

    DzyMsLizzyposted 10 years ago

    OH, ok...ugh.. I just put my subdomain, and stated that the entire HP site was being mirror-copied, and that with thousands of authors, and over 200 articles myself, that it would be too many URL's to provide.......
    
    Should I post a follow-up with that additional information?

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       Froggy213posted 10 years agoin reply to this

       I believe when they get mutiple complaints, it will work. Hang tuff.

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21. 70

    Beth100posted 10 years ago

    Been so long since I've been back to this site.  I left because of copied content.  It never seems to end!!
    >.<

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22. 74

    Anna Marie Bowmanposted 10 years ago

    If the entire site was copied, shouldn't HubPages staff tackle that issue, as well?

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    1. 78

       LeanManposted 10 years agoin reply to this

       It's still the weekend............ 9 to 5 Monday to Friday for anything to happen at HP.... But I guess they will get on this one if it is the whole site... after coffee and a bagel with cream cheese and maybe a nice danish...

       replyreport
23. 87

    Healthyannieposted 10 years ago

    I feel pretty sure that Hubpages staff will get onto this as this is a big problem, and it is certainly in their interest to do.

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24. 61

    Froggy213posted 10 years ago

    It has already been evident that we cannot count on staff to handle this--but I know that I don't allow thievery from me:
    
    Hello,
    
    Thank you for bringing this to our attention. Your DMCA has been accepted and processed. Please allow the standard 48 hours for a resolution. If no resolution has been reached in that time the material in question will be disabled. If there is anything we can assist you with in the meantime, please let us know.
    
    
    
    
    Regards,
    
    Michael Karr
    Senior Security Administrator
    HostGator.com LLC
    http://support.hostgator.com

    replyreport
25. 79

    DreamerMegposted 10 years ago

    Thanks for this info. I have filed a DMCA with hostgator and received a reply.

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26. 91

    Millionaire Tipsposted 10 years ago

    I have filed a DMCA as well. Thanks for letting us know about this.

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27. 74

    Anna Marie Bowmanposted 10 years ago

    I have filed one, as well.  I do hope the HP staff takes this seriously.

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28. 72

    brakel2posted 10 years ago

    My traffic started dropping a week ago and now has numerous blue arrows. That coincides with the above dates. I think plagiarists may be ruining our traffic. Let's hope for good days.

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29. 88

    suzettenaplesposted 10 years ago

    Hub Pages Staff:  The thievery of this site is beginning to happen several times a month now.  By not doing something about this or registering a complaint by the staff for the entire site you are sending the message to the thieves that it is okay to just keep on stealing our hubs and entire pages.  You are sending a message to your writers that you do not care about them and its 'every man for himself.'  Surely, staff, you are loosing money also, not just the individual writers. 
    
    It is time for the staff to become involved and start filing plagarism complaints for the site as a whole.   HP apparently is a target to anyone out there on the web that wants to make a fast buck by stealing pages of hubs from us.  To do nothing is encouraging more and more to attack us in this manner and steal our writings.

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    1. STAFF

       pauldeedsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

       The only traffic the HubPages content got on that site most likely came from this forum thread.  If direct profit was their motive, they were woefully inept because they did not even change out the ad code, so unless you are not enrolled in the HubPages Ad Program and are using the AdSense Authorized Sites feature you still may have earned from whatever tiny traffic those pages got.
       
       As I said here, only 70 of those pages were even in the Google index and few of those were Hubs.   70 indexed pages means it isn't likely to have any impact on search (in fact, traffic is up 3% today over last Monday).  I agree with LeanMan that these naive proxy and scraper sites really aren't worth worrying too much about.
       
       We do not own your content on HubPages so legally we can not file DMCA complaints on your behalf.  In rare cases of rampant abuse, we may be able to block the crawler of a proxy or rip-off site like this from accessing HubPages, but if we do that it  is really very easy for them to circumvent that if they are determined to do so. 
       
       In short, there is really no simple technical or legal thing that HubPages can do.   While I sympathize with not wanting your work copied somewhere, the real point  is that this sort of thing has little or no impact on traffic or earnings, and if you like you can probably just ignore it without consequence.

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          IzzyMposted 10 years agoin reply to this

          I think it was Paul Edmondson who once posted words to the effect of "if your long-tail hub title is number one in the search engines, everything is fine. If it isn't (and all the plagiarists show above you), you have a problem".
          
          I had that problem. Everyone who copied my work showed above me in search. My traffic was decimated. My earnings were decimated. None of you helped me. I had no warnings from Google about my account.
          
          I appealed (twice) just in case they had made a mistake.
          
          Google thought I had done nothing wrong. I thought I had done nothing wrong. But every single one of my (then) 500 hubs took second place to the dirty, thieving scum you have mentioned above as having little consequence on earnings.
          
          You might want to re-think that statement.

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          1. STAFF

             pauldeedsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

             I'm not familiar with the history of your particular situation, but if that happened it's more likely that the scrapers were exposing a weakness in the authority of your subdomain rather than being the cause of it.  Could that cost you some traffic?  Sure, but if you aren't ranking well to begin with, probably not too much (e.g. When you ain't got nothing, you got nothing to lose).
             
             Now, that doesn't mean that your Subdomain *deserved* to have that level of authority, but things were pretty grim for a lot of new Hubs in the first half of 2011.  In its early days Panda was a blunt instrument, but it has been honed quite a bit since then (and we are seeing new Hubs rank pretty well again in the last 6-12 months).   Of course, even well tuned algorithms don't always get everything right.

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          Susana Sposted 10 years agoin reply to this

          Nice to see you responding to this issue Paul, and letting people know that the sky isn't falling down!

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    SagaSphereposted 10 years ago

    I just discovered a completely different website that stole half of my content from a personal website two weeks ago, when my affiliate links where being tracked back to the website. The thief stole straight code!!
    These crooks are rampid and need to be dealt with harshly. There should be fines associated with these offenses.

    replyreport
31. 86

    IzzyMposted 10 years ago

    Funny you mentioned the year 2011.
    
    Bad year to write for HP, in my experience.
    
    My traffic halved after Panda, in the February, but stayed pretty buoyant that summer,
    
    It soared when subdomains were introduced, then collapsed into oblivion three weeks later.
    
    Every single one of my hubs have been stolen to that point.  It really didn't help that at that time you allowed a lot of hubs to be published that described Hubpages as a content directory.
    
    These hubs told the world that all content on the site could be copied and re-used. They might still be published for all I know.
    
    Stuff I wrote in 2012 can still be ranked. Stuff I wrote in 2013 got sunk. Yes I know some new subs are doing well. Good luck with those

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       HollieTposted 10 years agoin reply to this

       And it doesn't last!

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          bgpappaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

          So, unless I am reading this wrong, Hubpages response is sit tight and hope it goes away. We don't want to do anything?  Explain a lot.

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32. 94

    FatFreddysCatposted 10 years ago

    Um...am I missing something?? When I follow the link shown in the first post, I don't see any Hubs. I get re-directed to a forum page where people are apparently trading illegal rips of TV shows and movies. Needless to say I got the hell outta there before my computer contracted anything funky.

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       Froggy213posted 10 years agoin reply to this

       He was told immediately from his host to remove it. I believe he probably figured it would be in his best interest to do so. Now, who is next? Writer Fox??

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33. 61

    Froggy213posted 10 years ago

    I was contacted by Hostgator this morning and the theft has been removed.

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       Stacie Lposted 10 years agoin reply to this

       Thats good news...so where will he pop up next?

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       findwholenessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

       Good!

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          brakel2posted 10 years agoin reply to this

          Greatest news of the day. Good job. Thanks for your work on this crisis everyone.

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       PegCole17posted 10 years agoin reply to this

       Bump

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34. 86

    DzyMsLizzyposted 10 years ago

    I, too, received an e-mail from hostgator referencing my ticket number, saying that the copied material had been removed.
    Hopefully, this won't happen anymore.  (yeah, right.)

    replyreport
35. 94

    jansharesposted 10 years ago

    Fyi, I filed my first DMCA with prezi.com after finding parts of a recipe hub word for word. The response was swift. The offender was "Brenda A" and the copy has been taken down. Thanks, Writer Fox for emphasizing diligence in looking after our copyrights.

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36. 72

    brakel2posted 10 years ago

    Congrats Jan. good job. I know it will never end

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37. 48

    Doodleheadposted 10 years ago

    Gee-I looked and they didn't steal mine....it would probably help my traffic if they did!

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    1. 86

       IzzyMposted 10 years agoin reply to this

       The whole site is now re-directing to site.16. net.
       
       It was a mirror site, so you were there without me looking and proving it to you.
       
       Nice work, guys. Don't anyone click on any links in their new site, just let them sink.

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38. 82

    tillsontitanposted 10 years ago

    It looks like this site has been taken down!  Good work.

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