They're afraid that if they voice their opinions they'll get slammed. What do you think?
I see pros about it personally. But I'm trying to be nice.
The only negative I see is....... None, really.
Maybe someone can point some out. We'll see.
There is a real war going on here - the fundamentalists who have lost all meaning in the face of science and now pray for their o-my-godden, a play on armageddon for them, necessary to point this out as many of them cannot read so well. It is a kind of global madness that in this age of communication and easily available knowledge they refuse to come out from under the bed. It becomes a kind of duty to the future of mankind to drag them out - they understand this as they have been forcibly dragging others under the bed (into it in the case of catholic priests).
The more discussion the better, a little more reasoned debate would be better than name calling but hey, it is more fun.
Being reasonable in the discussion of religion. I think half of us do that, lol.
I was still trying to think of cons, though.
On the positive side of it, if some people are too timid to join the discussions then that probably means we have less half-cocked religious stuff to deal with. For instance I've noticed that we don't get alot of charismatics here. Ten years ago they were all over casual forums such as this one.
On the other hand, if we -those trying to help limit the dangerous potential of religious beliefs- are to be successful in reaching out to people, I guess we need to reach out to as many of these people as possible.
Also, if a person -a religious person- is too timid to enter the forums, that would seem to indicate that they're not all that strong in their faith. They may be exactly the type of people we're trying to reach.
They're not actively the dangerous ones, but in their uncertainty they tend to support the dangerous ones. The few can't do too much damage on their own, without the many providing them with power.
or maybe someone is so sure of their faith they dont need to argue it? I suppose some people are happy with thier beliefs, but also recognize other people have their own beliefs. maybe...
I personaly really enjoy finding out what other people belive in, and why. But as far as the religous forums go, all Ive learned is side A hates side B and they both go around yelling "your stupid." so I stay out mostly. Way too remenicsent of grade school...I know you are but what am I?
I'm not the one saying it, I'm just trying to be fair and see if it's true and if there's anyway to change it and improve the reputation of the rel. forums so that they might be more welcoming to more people. Because if that is all you can get out of it, seeing nothing but the squabbling, then you certainly shouldn't waste your time, just as I don't waste my time on the silly drama that takes place in abundance outside of the rel. forums.
I'm quite sure that the vast majority of people stay out of the rel. forums simply because they simply aren't interested in it, even all those religious people, and that's perfectly fine, normal and understandable.
I'm just responding to the recent complaints, and trying to figure it out. Thanks for sharing your perspective.
Making criminal accusations against an entire group of people is hardly conducive to reasonable debate.
Neither are overly sensitive participants. I mean you gotta admit, there have been an awful lot of catholic priests involved, and this is just what we know about.
What do you think is going to happen to a group of people when their natural and healthy sexual urges are repressed.
LOL...well I imagine that I happen to string together a few cogent arguments in between my superstitious rants about Jesus Christ. Whom one man in particular fancies calling "the sky fairy"...I thought his description of the person of Jesus Christ amusing.
You will hear a great many Christians say they don't believe in religion but rather they have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
Mostly Christians will not really enter agnostic or atheist forums because they are instructed in the bible not to argue with people with who reject the person of Jesus Christ.
I'm never offended by people who don't agree with my belief in Jesus Christ or who think I'm some mentally weak juvenile who needs something to believe in. I've heard it all.
Usually when someone rants about a disbelief in God or they make disparaging remarks about a particular religion; it doesn't make any sense to engage that person about it. I mean if you patently disagree with someone about any topic it doesn't make sense to try and "dialogue" with them.
Mostly negative comments about religion are used to bait unwitting believers into some inane conversation about what they believe.
I don't attack people for their lack of belief; to me it's just repugnant to do that.
Nor do I entertain people with my belief in God who absolutely reject what I say or believe. It is generally a waste of time and energy.
I will attempt to answer any question about my belief in God as openly and honestly as I can for anyone who wants to really know why I believe what I believe. I give the same respect to all people regardless of their religious beliefs or lack thereof.
I don't attack people for their lack of belief; to me it's just repugnant to do that.
But you are attacking earnest who believes in a perfectly good superior being in his skyfairy. And this thread is clearly about people attacking each others religion or lack of.
I've never attacked Earnest or anyone else for their lack of belief.
Earnest is an atheist and he refers to Jesus as the "skyfairy." Which is sarcasm and condensencion on Earnest's part for people who believe in Jesus. Earnest doesn't believe in the "skyfairy" as his personal deity.
I think his description of Jesus is amusing. I've said so on one of my hubs. I've never attacked him for his description.
The context of what I said was not an attack on Earnest. You remind me of Sean Hannity on Fox News.
You take comments out of context and attack people with them....LOL...
Is this the 2nd part where you reply with something else meant to bait me into becoming defensive about Jesus or the "skyfairy"......LOL...
And yet, you speak in such demeaning terms. This is not what brings about meaningful debate, my friend.
Been there, done that, don't care. I have a firm foundation and in the end that's what matters. All else is dust at the mercy of the wind and various tides. It's my job to kindly extend my feelings to various questions. People can accept or reject it. There's no damnation involved in that. It's called dialogue. What people don't like and are turned off from is being attacked, belittled and condescended to from those who think they are full of crap or don't share a half way common view. In my view either be respectful on the forums or spend more time putting together hubs.
Either way doesn't really matter. I've learned that many people thrive off discontent on the forums and that's a shame. Civility can be so easily gained yet so carelessly lost.
Just keep in mind GP that accusing people of being an agent of the "Adversary", religious persecutors, etc etc also qualifies as attacking, belittling and condescending. Not, I will add, that I have seen any such attacks from you in the recent past.
Thank you, and I might add, you have never seen me attack. Many misunderstand my nature to stand firm in my feelings, beliefs and faith as a frontal attack, but I have never struck out at anyone for their own beliefs or faith. Hope all is well on your side of the state.
Yes you have, lol. Nice try. But we've been there, done that, I'll drop it if you will.
Not full frontal attacks, generally speaking, I'll grant you that, but a whole lot of ..
Nevermind. I won't point it out, let's drop it. Whatever.
I don't live in Utah. Or anywhere near there. I think you're confusing me with someone else.
I think that's true, which is a bit sad - but then, participating in the religious forums isn't part of the mainstream activity of Hubbing, so the solution is simple - don't go there.
What I think is sadder is that some newbies are afraid to enter the forums at all, because the vicious posts in the Religious and Political forums dominates the "latest posts" listing, and gives the impression the whole place is like that.
It's a good point Marisa, but at the same time...
You don't see any negativity to speak of in the knowledge exchange, EHM, or even the sandpit.
I think it's pretty clear that religion and politics are a contentious, but the rest of the forums are very positive. I think a newbie would poke around enough to realize that pretty quick.
I generally stay out of both of them, just because they irk the heck out of me. There's no point going there and being aggravated, because it isn't as if there's a whole lot reasonable debate going on in either. I'm not "afraid". I just can't be bothered. I either want a "regular" discussion, silliness, or solid information about HubPages stuff - none of which can be found in either the religious or politics forums.
You're right, though - the forums are usually a pretty entertaining thing if someone stays out of those two. New people shouldn't be turned off by what goes on in those.
Yes to everything you've said here, although I like to debate politics every now and then. Provided it's with people who actually respond to what I say rather than going in for knee jerk ad hominems. Both political "sides" are equally guilty of this, although there are also a few reasonable people at most points of the political spectrum who are capable of a proper debate.
maybe some are afraid which is too bad because people should be able to post freely, but when you have certain people trolling through these forums to incite and inflame others for their beliefs, who wants to be a part of that? I just don't want to waste time in there.. I hardly enter the religious forum, but at times I do leave a comment but hardly ever enter a 'discussion.' isn't there a saying about 'a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.'?
btw, happy monday.
Yes, that's true. There are a couple people who I guess can be unnecessarily mean about things. A few times I have flinched at hearing things people say, or seeing what they write I should say. It's possible as well that I'm just not sensitive to it most of the time. Some people are jerks, this is a fact, so I don't really care when I see them getting a dose of their own medicine. And yes, for sure, I've administered the dosage myself a few times. I usually don't regret it.
I guess I just hope that everybody realizes that the insults, slurs and flaming come from both sides, and probably fairly equally. After all, religionists have a long tradition of persecuting those who disagree with them.
Thanks for your perspective. It's very rational.
Happy Monday to you, too! I like your attitude! I learned a long time ago to find joy in everything you do, even the stuff you don't want to do, such as Mondays.
Oh yeah, that was what I meant to respond to, the saying at the end of your post. So true. You cannot legislate or regulate other peoples' minds. Totally agree.
That's why -I feel- discussion is necessary. I'm not out to destroy peoples' faith. I just would like people to understand the damage caused by extremism. Alot of good people are unintentionally supporting it without really being aware of what they're doing.
People seldom have "aha" moments. It's a drip drip drip that gets them in the end. Ongoing open discussion is necessary, but I agree that a few might take it too far too often.
Who likes being mocked over their belief in a higher intelligence?
At times this forum is really irritating with some seriously stupid people in it continuously posting crap.
I don't enter them because in my 53 years of life I've heard all of the arguments and am tired of the same old thing.
I don't think my personal 'faith' is anyone's business.
Totally understandable. That's how I felt when I was done with religion. One day I packed up all my books and threw them in the yardsale/goodwill pile in the basement. I was done. That was a little less than ten years ago.
And then I learned about politics! Lol, and the way things have been in this country lately..
I don't think.
May be that's why I am not afraid of entering religious forums - when I am in the mood
I always heard there are three topics you avoid in public: Religion, Politics and.... I forget the third one, maybe its sex. Avoid these topics because people have strong opinions and arguments and fights often are the end result.
Mix in internet anonymity and sock puppet accounts and you only make it worse, no thank you. This is my very first post in the religion forums and most likely will also be my last.
Hell just the other day a friend in real life actually called me a f'n moron to my face because he disagreed with a political statement I made about Obama. To me his response was way more offensive than anything I said even if you totally disagreed with me.
I love religion and politics! And sex!
Funny, you couldn't remember the third as being sex, and I'd never even heard of the third. But sure enough I just typed "never discuss religion politics or sex" into google and search results were found, although the search bar only auto-filled for the first two.
I think that's significant. Discussing sex used to be taboo. Now it's not. Politics are a free for all, and now we're breaking down the wall of supposed sanctity that formerly kept us from discussing religion.
I think it's great!
No I could care less what other people think. I write hubs that are non religious nature that benefit all regardless if you are a bishop or a non believer. There is simply no reason to get involved in such. I am here to make money and share what I know.
Why do you assume fear as the issue? Mostly it's just no fun.
I enjoy it for a bit, but for the most part, most people (on all sides of the issue) are just rehashing their same opinions ... It's not always fear, sometimes it's boredom.
There's no difference between "My church is better than your church" and "My Not/Anti/Other Thing is better than your church".
Or "My Church is better than your Not/Anti/Other Thing" ...
No fear ... YAWN.
Why do you assume I assume?
It's beyond me why people read the OP and assume it's my position, but you're not the first person to come into this thread and misunderstand.
I tend to agree and that's a problem .I dont rip down others ideas on gods. Haters of religion and god ideas are just plain out mean . If i want to hope in what others might think a fairytale. Let me do so without attack . I am positive that every person that has had the nerve to call my ideas stupid . And spout off at the mouth on the net. would not have the nuts to chide my ideas to my face. # 1 reason being for that? They fear that in doing so might just cause me to bash theirs in . And im not talking ideas in that case . im talking their face.
If you wouldn't say something to someones face . then best to keep your pie hole shut. this un civil bully bullsht on the web needs to stop .
I agree with your last line, in all of its forms, which go way beyond atheists on believers.
In theory I have nothing against what you say, really, except for your (god-like) tendency towards irrational violence. Surely your parents taught you better than that, even if your god didn't.
Don't get mad, I'm just pointing out the obvious, I already look like I'm 40, and I'm gonna look much worse if you bash my face in. You don't even mean that anyway.
Yes, I do speak about these things with people face to face when an appropriate opportunity arises. It rarely does. Most people aren't up for religious discussions at all, least of all open religious discussions, and I assure you I have felt the 'wrath of god' (ostracism of christians) for sharing.
Generally when people discuss it on the web, they do so in open religious forums, WHERE IT IS APPROPRIATE TO DISCUSS IT. Duh. If anywhere in my vicinity they had such things live, I would certainly attend. They never do. Shoot my county barely has a democrat party, let alone open religious discussions.
Bullying? Is that kinda like when I and my children drive past the churches and see the various threatening messages on their sign boards?
Bullying, persecution, hating religion, attacking christians for their beliefs, these are all terms and phrases which seem to be highly over-used in reference to what really takes place in the religious forums.
If people don't like open religious discussion, they shouldn't frequent open religious discussion forums.
On the other hand, we could ALL be a little bit nicer in how we say things.
I say 'so be it' but don't let it stop you from talking out. Be a spiritual warrior! Step out of the square box. It is time to act now!! Say your truth. You are called to do so.
People may not be able to defend themselves spiritually. Religion always starts a fierce debate. More people have been killed for God than any other reason. It hits home. This isn't a random,fly-by-night subject. It requires a sort of investment. Maybe that's why people avoid it.
I can certainly see why one would be hesitant to enter the Religion & Beliefs forum due to the constant brow beating that occurs, especially if one has a sensitive nature. I wouldn't advise anyone who gets their feelings hurt easily to engage in a forum with the controversies surrounding this one. It's certainly become a battle ground but that's because of the sensitive nature of it.
We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
The Articles of Faith
of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,49 … -1,FF.html
I suppose some people still have trouble with letting other people have their own agency.
And how exactly do religious forums interfere with that?
Not as long as their agency doesn't knock on other people's doors!
If this is the case, then why is there such a proselytizing army to convert others?
I'm not arguing, I'm just asking an honest question.
One of the things that seems to cause trouble in the forums and in life is proselytizing in its various forms. It feels to a lot of people like an attack, because their present beliefs are "wrong" and have to be changed or God isn't going to love them. We've seen this in the forums and in life.
Hence, I think this is the basis for a lot of attacks in the forums, as well as in life.
The moto here is if you don't believe in religion attack it! Did your Mom ever tell you,"If you don't have something nice to say don't say anything at all." Oh I forgot, only Christian Mothers teach manners.
Thanks for your -as always- generally pointless comment.
The word "attack" is so over-used.
I've been proven right again! I knew I would be.
Me too. Good point. Guess that explains his own lack thereof.
The other self proclaimed Christian cults do not recognize you as being "one of them."
They're just jealous of the cool underwear.
And having those many young wives! With the cool underwear, I might add!
They wouldn't because they're a product of the Apostacy, that said, we are in agreement with the "Articles of Faith" which state we should never speak against anothers religion. I personally don't consider the "Left Gay Atheists of the Self Serving" an actual religion.
As for Christianity we are the Restored Chruch of Jesus Christ and our church is organized as such. We have no payed clergy so our only agenda is to serve our fellow man. We are not a product of a Roman Emperor who decided he knew what was best for Christianity. The actual name of our church is "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints", we have been called "Mormons" because of the "Book of Mormon". It was used as an insult but we accepted it and are proud of it. As I pointed out the actual name of our church we clearly worship Jesus Christ as our name implies. Our devotion to the word of Christ clearly makes us Christians as the definition of Christians implies.
You follow a notorious con man's plagiarized bible. There is no scientific proof for the purported previous civilizations existing in America, despite the stories Smith made up. Only Mormons consider themselves Christians.
But call yourself Christian if it makes you happy, sneako. The Jonestown folks did.
Just remember you're just a mouthpiece for the father of all serpents, you are dressed appropriately for the occaison.
How did you know I was wearing my Mormon underwear?
I was referring to your potential for being a pair of boots. As far as the comments about underwear you wouldn't understand anyway thats why you think its an insult. We are actually proud of our heritage and what we believe and stand for. The fact that you are fixated on underwear demonstrates you really don't have anything of any substance to contribute.
I don't care what kind of underwear you or your wives wear, sneako. Did you read the link I provided? Of course you didn't. You only listen to your zany priest with their ridiculous talk of fake history and people.
But don't worry, the other cults are almost as bad. But at least some of their priests possess a modicum of common sense!
There's no proof of any sort, scientific or otherwise. Not a speck of even a suggestion of any real evidence, just empty unsupportable claims.
sneaks, did you really say that... come on. I've taught a lot of kids and some of the most polite were of non- christian parents.
probably the most polite were the Muslim and Indian (India) children. their parents were also very polite.
This is just another case of "Christians do this and Christians to that" which is a completely wrong generalization often touted by those who claim to be one.
By the way, my mother has always claimed to be a Christian, so Sneako's point is as correct as it usually is!
Obviously you have taken great pride in pursuit of her opposite.
I don't think pride is the correct word to use, sneako! But my Mom is an open minded "Christian," the rarest of all believers in this part of the country. We often discuss the scriptures compared to science and modern knowledge.
She has much less trouble equating the Bible and science than your cult does. Denial seems to be a necessary component in many religious beliefs. Your cult is certainly no exception and is even less believable than the traditional cults. But as they say, you are welcome to choose your own poison.
I would wager to say that in comparison across the board Christian homes produce more strong well grounded children than those that are not. There are always exceptions both ways but in general I believe thats a fair statement.
I strongly doubt that. Atheists tend to be mostly educated people. It seems to me like just about every drug addict, alcoholic, and ignorant joe or jane are self-professed christians. You may question their level of commitment, nonetheless, they believe!
I agree that more educated households tend to produce more well-adjusted offspring than less educated households. At least it seems that way to me.
I think for the most part this is true, but not across the board.
I've worked with kids from all backgrounds and have seen some truly amazing well adjusted children from less educated families.
some of them realize they are already at somewhat of a disadvantage and the parents (often a single parent) seeks out other opportunities to raise their children. library hours, checking out books and videos from the library, using community resources, giving their kids responsibilities at a young age, educational nature walks, extended family, etc.
and more educated families often spend more time with their children, taking them places, exposing them to different cultures and music, books, the arts. when children have more to broaden their minds, they tend to be more accepting and better adjusted to life. not always, but I have seen this.
Agreed completely. Exceptions abound in both cases (less-educated parents with well-adjusted kids, and well-educated parents with maladjusted kids). But I think education - generally, but not always - helps parents realize the importance of spending time with their kids, and expanding their mental horizons.
Funny. Most of the atheists I know do way more drugs and alcohol than religious folks.
As for Christians who struggle with addiction, that's a different matter- they're people who KNOW they need a savior.
Only religious mothers have and teach manners eh? Very nice to know. I will let all the non believers know this so they can go get religion and learn manners from it like threatening others with a sky fairy and ramming hate filled doctrine down kids throats!
Just an idea...but, why not have a forum for Evolution? Then, maybe, the battles would be on their turf instead of the Religion forums? lol
then again, maybe not. Maybe it would just give them duplicated battle grounds...
On the outside looking in, it appears the subliminal sarcasms aimed toward each other's view, which are sometimes not subliminal, are what creates the storm for the thunder. Then it becomes a full-fledged category 5 hurricane.
I usually stay away from religious topics, although I don't mind "what if" topics like, what if angels were actually aliens or something (not saying I believe that, just an example).
The reason why I stay away from serious religious debates is because it usually just goes around and around, back and forth, with no one actually getting any ground. Why? Because it's hard to debate faith and beliefs, a person can say one belief and it will be countered by another belief, and so on, and so on. But on that note, more power to the people who like debating it.
i am not afraid to enter religious forums, though wonder if it is just a waste of time, as after all we all have our own views about everything don't we?
It is somewhat frustrating to those who insist on facts and logic in the religious forums. But as AP pointed out, it's fun to some!
When the religious forum section first opened, I made a post with some ground rules that I asked people go by, first thing, in the hopes that there would be a section of the forum wherein people could discuss religious topics without it becoming a free for all flamefest.
In the time since I made that post, hundreds of people have become involved in flame wars that have ranged from mild to California forest fires.
It is disappointing, discouraging, and even so, the nature of forums on the Internet.
Religion with ground rules? What were you thinking?
It is the nature of things. Religion draws out a lot of emotion.
I will say, though, that I've seen plenty of threads where folks have asked for things to stay civil and for the most part that gets respected.
I wouldn't see anything wrong with HubPages establishing a "believers only" sub-forum. However, believers don't need nonbelievers to be unreasonable and HubPages isn't a church or a religious website.
The religious forums on hubpages have been a mixed bag as I see it. The depth of conversation has been a disappointment as those civil discussions are rare. I lose interest when it denigrates to "...prove your psychotic sky fairy...". Depending on what trolls are in what moods - a civil discussion can be impossible. I admit I am not fond of seeing believers stoop to the same tactics.
What I don't understand - is what is the benefit of being so caustic and insulting? When a nonbeliever responds with insults to what I post to another believer...I think the nonbeliever is a narcisstic fool and I have zero interest in anything else they might say.
I am not afraid of the religious forums here, I just have little faith the civil discussions are likely Holly
I know you're not afraid Holly.
I just learned today -or maybe yesterday- of your current battle that makes all this seem totally irrelevent between me and you, and between you and anyone else who knows of it. To be clear, and avoid giving the wrong impression to others, and since you've made no secret of it I guess, I refer to your health, not to any struggle of faith.
I try not to do what you have mentioned, insofar as it goes when two believers are affirming each other's faith or whatever. I try to be careful of what is an appropriate opportunity to speak up, and what is not. I think most others do too.
Knowing of your situation does serve as a very important reminder of priorities in these forums. We never know what others whom we are interacting with might be going through.
I wish you nothing but peace and happiness. Thanks for sharing your viewpoint on this.
"I lose interest when it denigrates to "...prove your psychotic sky fairy..."."
LOL, that kind of challenge is impossible to meet, and the scientists/atheists know it. But some theists insist on trying to "prove" the existence of God, thus playing right into their hands.
Look, I'm a believer in both God and in science, and I see no contradiction. Science doesn't proclaim the non-existence of God, just that we haven't found evidence of God (and IMO we never will, until after death, or at Armageddon, which I'm not losing any sleep over, thanks).
I can't prove the existence of God, and I'd never try. I know full well that my faith is not a rational belief. I'm okay with that. That's why it's called "faith," after all. If there were a way of proving God's existence, we'd call it "knowledge."
Also, as a believer in science, I fully accept the fact that I may be wrong in my faith. I don't think I am, but I may be. Plenty of wicked smart people have been debating issues of faith for millennia, and we still haven't reached a universal concord. I'm not going to tell someone that they're following a false faith because their heresy doesn't match my heresy. That'd be pretty arrogant of me. At the same time, I expect the same courtesy from others. This does not preclude having a frank discussion about what we believe (or don't) and why. I'm open to learning more about other folks' faith, if only as a path to understanding them. But please don't try to blackmail me into your church with threats of hell. You don't decide who goes there, and it's pretty hubristic on your part to presume to do so.
Spot on with what I think of the religious forums.
I have no desire to alter what I believe, nor have I ever tried to make anyone believe as or what I do. It just would be nice to chat with a believer who wants to chat without a nonbeliever hijacking and insulting. On those threads where a discussion of substance has occurred to ask/answer questions about others beliefs - it has been very interesting. I am sure of what I believe and am willing to share it if asked and I am also open to understanding how another thinks
To Pandora...I appreciate your positive comments. My battle with advanced cancer is not something I have hidden, nor do I want to. It is in my face and I have to deal with it. Maybe I can help someone just by sharing it before the cancer wins. It has no doubt forced me to examine every aspect of my faith and I am firmly rooted therein. I certainly have no need to prove my beliefs to anyone, and frankly - I value every breath I have and refuse to waste any of it with certain nonbelievers who jump in demanding I "prove it". So I agree it would be nice to know I can exchange posts with another believer on a clearly labeled thread without the bull pucky
I did see a post on this thread I would like to comment on too.
It was about our "shiny domed guy" being offensive. I have not seen him be offensive. He does stand admirably firm in what he believes, and has been fearless (in my eyes) as he responds honestly to threads. If he is considered to be offensive because he believes in heaven and hell - then put me in the same boat. To consider us offensive for it makes no sense to me though.
If you are free to believe what you want - then you are not subject to what we believe. For instance - there are plenty of people who believe the earth is overcrowded. Some are so convinced it is true that they automatically dispise people with more than one child. They have templated their belief onto everyone and can't get past it. If the nonbelievers here will hate those who believe in heaven and hell, even though they do not accept our beliefs, then they are the intolerant ones who can't see the people of faith as people. Not sure if I expressed that well, but I tried
Holly, with the utmost respect, if you wish, let us know how it is you hold onto faith in a god who won't save your life even though he could. How do you deal with that fact?
I am not afraid to answer this question and I do appreciate the respectful way it is posed. However, my Aunt has flown in quite a distance and today is my time to visit with her so I will have to respond tonight. There are pretty flowers and great coffee waiting for me and I am looking forward to the visit
I'll be back tonight! Holly
This is where I am...
I was diagnosed with advanced invasive bladder cancer -stage T3b with undetermined mets - 6 weeks after I married the man of my dreams. Within a few months of surviving a radical cysectomy and orthotopic neobladder surgery and 4 months of aggressive chemotherapy, they found spread to my bones. No one has survived metastatic invasive bladder cancer. I am on social security at 45 living what is left of my life. This is no joke.
You want to know how I hold on to faith in a God who won't save my life even though I know He could. How do I deal with that?
First off, God did not give me cancer. I do acknowledge God could have spared me the cancer, that He didn't chose to does not change that He is God.
God has saved my life. In this life I have been blessed with friends who care about me and who I care deeply about. I have been able to learn empathy, compassion and sacrificial love. Times of need taught me to give in times of plenty. He could have spared me pain in my life, but I can see what I would not have gained. He could spare me the cancer, but I would have missed so much more. The life I was leading was driven and consumed with what I thought was important. The cancer shattered my existence and brought me to truly living the rest of my earthly life. I am spending my time wisely and making sure to love my friends and family.
Yes, I do believe in the Bible and heaven. I believe this earthly life is where we are to learn what really matters, to become who we are, to find our truths. When we do, we find God.
I believe the Bible to be the words of God, although I believe man has the capacity and propensity to corrupt absolutely. The Bible brought me to believe, but my personal experiences with God are what built my faith. If I had been the only one on this earth who needed a savior, I know Jesus would have walked Calvary just for me.
This body I have would at some point have to die, the how and when is of no matter to me. That I have loved and been loved, helped and been helped, and found my answers is all that matters.
Not sure if that is what you wanted to know, or if I have over simplified it. I am open to discuss what what I believe, but I will not respond to demands for proof or crude insults.
God Bless is my most sincere expression of hope, Holly
I'm sorry to hear about your cancer, and glad that you have found solace nevertheless that gets you through the day.
Thank you, Holly. I appreciate your openness and candor. You'll get no demands for proof or crude insults from me. I do hope this is something you can beat and that science will hopefully find a cure.
You expressed it all perfectly, I think.
I hope that when I said you didn't make any secret about it you didn't think I meant that in any way you should have. I just meant that normally speaking I wouldn't go around revealing other peoples' medical conditions without their express consent.
I hope you are in remission. The reference I saw to it was in passing, and I don't want to probe. Either way my best wishes are with you.
Of course there are plenty of strictly religious forums on the web, but I understand that if you feel at home here and have friends here etc., it would probably be nice. I hope that when threads are posted requesting nonbelievers to stay out, that people are respectful and considerate of that.
This is one terrific post. I'm with you completely.
And nonbelievers don't need believers around to make arrogant and bigoted generalizations about how "unreasonable" believers are.
What about your holy book that makes arrogant and bigoted generalizations about us non-believers?
If you really think you're better than "my holy book," prove it by avoiding such behavior.
So it's okay for religionists to hold arrogant and bigoted beliefs regarding EVERYBODY ELSE but not okay for us to point out how silly and damaging religions are?
You're a perfect example, Val. You demand respect but give none and then cry persecution. Of course discussions will get heated and less than perfectly reasonable when religionists behave in such irrational ways.
Oh but blame the atheists, right? Such a convenient scapegoat.
Real Christians don't believe we're any better than anyone else. What's so arrogant about the belief that we are sinners in need of forgiveness? And how do you know I give no respect? Has it occurred to you that calling all religion silly and damaging is itself bigoted and disrespectful and not at all conducive to civil discussion on religion?
Val said: "Real Christians don't believe we're any better than anyone else."
...and I just lolled.
....yes you did, quite unattractively. Unbridled arrogance in a Christian, a Muslim, a Jew, a Catholic, or an Atheist or Agnostic....is generally quite unattractive.
So is arrogantly admonishing others for their arrogance.
Oh, fun, you think I was arrogant, how interesting. Do you think anyone admonishing another for arrogance must essentially come across as arrogant themselves? A question to ponder.
Yes! I felt somewhat arrogant while admonishing you for admonishing PB for her arrogance. Didn't you?
I arrogantly object to your arrogance while arrogantly replying to an arrogant post
These ridiculous religious threads still going on the same old same old path huh!
Still, it is nice to be back after a month ban for some reason that I never discovered - maybe some religious freak or other, or a gang of trolls maybe. Whoever it is that doesn't like us kids talking back I suppose.
We even to have collected another flippin troll !
"I wouldn't see anything wrong with HubPages establishing a "believers only" sub-forum."
I would. That would make it the only exclusive forum at the hub[as far as I know]. Why should any one group/ideology get that special privilege/protection? How about a *knitters only* forum or a *those who've had an Alien experience only forum*?
I agree completely; besides without someone disagreeing, we fall into the pit of self appreciation of our unbridled intellect.
Help me Help me ... I've fallen in and I can't get out.
That's a great point. I stand totally corrected.
Well there are plenty of religious sites with forums for believers only. They kick out trouble-makers like me!
It is fun
The forums have been tame lately IMO. There are a few missing trolls...
Sneako - are you looking for trouble again?
I missed something along the way. What's up with your underwear
We wear sacred garments once we recieve our Endowments. It's a sacred ceremony we participate in at our temples. They protect us and remind us of who we are and what we stand for.
I don't think so many people would have a problem with religion if all religions could agree on one playbook.
I mean, think about it ... What if you were watching a football game and they kept changing the rules because one referee believed this and another referee believed that? It would just be a big old mess and not worth spectating over.
And then we will have someone come in and say, 'this is the only rule of God' and then some will disagree or agree with that new referee. With so many prophets with open mouths, I find them all to be as unreliable as used car salesmen.
True wisdom is in what one can discover for themselves. If religion was meant for everyone then there would be only one codex and we would all willingly obey it. As this is not the case, we must assume religion to be a need, cultured to fit into what people are willing to believe or reject.
Now here's the part that will strike everyone odd. I have *no* problem with people having beliefs or stating them. However, I do have a problem with people attempting to enforce those beliefs upon others.
Believe what you will for yourself. Tell others what you believe. But don't expect them to fulfill your destiny by converting them to your beliefs.
Those who chose to be prophets must explain why the word of God is not the same in all books, or suffer the damnation that their book could possibly be wrong. After all ... if the message is different in all religions then only one can be right, and as no one can be certain which one ... well ... subscribe at your own risk.
I've been hiding and watching this thread. Have read every post.
I like this one the ; bestest .
I had always said that all the diffrent religions and denominations should focus on their commonalities..... Not so.
They should examine their diffrences instead.
Such as tell me again why I'm going to Hell cause there was a piano in the corner of the building that I was Babtized in?
Lets examine that.
Tell me again why God would care if I gather in a building singing songs on Sunday instead of Saturday or thursday for that matter.
God died for my sins of murder, adultery etc but I;m goin to hell for eating a "T" bone on Friday???
We don't need to examin commonalities
We need to examine our absurdities.
Just maybe, if these were eleminated?
Who knows what might happen????
Yeah. But you know how it is, Jerami, most people only wish to examine the absurdities in others' beliefs.
I'll here confess two absurdities of generally perecived atheism. I think it's an absurdity to deny the existance of magic in the world. It might be better if we focused some on how we explain that and think it should be perceived. I don't think the world would be a better place if say... love is cast aside in favor of chemical reactions and survival instincts. It's more than that, even if only because we have made it more than that ourselves.
True or not, people don't want to hear that. You can't expect people to go from warm fuzzies to clinically cold.
Another absurdity of perceived atheism is that we need no moral guides. We certainly do, though of course they shouldn't be tied to fables of the unknown and everyone has to decide for themselves.
Ah, one more absurdity. Churches serve no purpose. Religion I suspect, but fellowship is a good thing.
Thanks Jerami for posting. I love that you never get your feathers all ruffled.
Interesting how it always gets back to "Mormons." Also interesting how no one wants to get the actual scoop on the faith through the official website lds.org, but rather go to such easy lengths to acquire other camel fodder elsewhere on the web.
Great study and investigation hard at work!
If Sneako was Catholic, we'd be making fun of them...
Or maybe snake handlers....
Hey! No talking about my wife! Is nothing sacred here?
Hah again! Concede Randy, his comedic excellence is superior to your's.
They don't have anacondas in Arizona, ya know! I will never concede to the cupcake king!
Sorry Randy - bald shortie outsmooths you in humour all the way
damn and blast - anyway he out cupcakes you as well
I bow to his obviously superior cupcakeness. But he can't touch my corn pone!
Well, probably that only happened in this thread because your man there came in here and started ATTACKING us. What do you expect? If he'd behave civilly people wouldn't point out his hypocrisy.
We are all agents unto ourselves. I only defend my words and faith.
Here's a good topic change. Do you think my new picture makes me look fat? I know I'm fat and need to do some serious slimming down. Winter hibernation has gotten the best of me.
Interesting how some choose to believe the explanations of a known con man and the information twisted by those who follow him instead of documented historical accounts. As stated earlier, facts have no place in false belief systems.
So you say! Lets see some proof! Anything! Go ahead and take all the time you want I have all eternity!
Which makes it very difficult -or maybe I should say impossible- to engage them in thoroughly reasonable discussion. From my point of view, the discussions become even more unreasonable when we leave the believers to themselves, don't you think.
(I'm sorry that sounds insulting, it isn't intended to insult, i have a point to it.)
But there's an aspect of reasoning we could be forgetting about sometimes. Mind you, I'm not talking about you guys, or us, I'm talking mostly about me. I think best by writing. When I'm not sure what to think I ask for input. In forums I get to do both. So I started this thread because I am frustrated by the recent threads suggesting that we're too mean and scaring people away.
I don't want to be mean, that's not me, and I don't want my interest in this to turn me into something I don't want to be. Sometimes it's necessary, such as in war, but in this case maybe it's just counter-productive.
Again, I'm not talking about you guys. I don't think Ron's jokes are mean, they're just funny, and they ought to make people think sometimes. I don't think I've ever seen Poet, Wyanjen or Randy, etc be mean.
What was I saying? Oh yeah. See that's why writing helps me think. I'm a scatter-brain and I easily forget everything I'm thinking if I don't get it written down.
Isn't a part of being reasonable understanding other peoples' needs and emotions? Do we sometimes, not referring specifically to you guys, do I sometimes, let us say, or nonbelievers sometimes forget that we're dealing with real people?
And I had another thought. It certainly isn't just nonbelievers, that is for like way sure. The people on the forums who claim loudly and repeatedly to be the most 'enlightened' are also among the rudest, ill-mannered folk around.
But I don't care what they do. If they work against their own interests that's their problem.
AH! Beauty is always in the eye of the beholder and so is guilt!
People really tend to paint this issue with a wide brush. Trolls are trolls, and some people get a kick out of a flame war.
If it wasn't religion, we'd find something else to hate on each other about.
So Pandora, if you're not interested in being mean, perhaps it's reasonable to avoid speaking about believers as if we're babies who are incapable of being even remotely reasonable without atheist supervision.
Go ahead and leave us to our own devices.
Does that include sending us to burn for an eternity in hellfire or is that something you could speak to your god about? We have a vested interest in your beliefs so we can't just leave you to your devices if the device is our eternal damnation.
In all fairness, not all Christians believe this. And even if they do, who cares? I truly am not bothered for one second if someone else believes I'm going to be damned forever for not believing what they believe.
Well, I've seen these beliefs damage people. You know, they figure there's something wrong with them.
No doubt. I pity their children, because they're too young to realize their parents are probably wrong. But again, this is restricted to the zealots who demand fealty to a dogma, which is not all Christians.
I started to say... everything in moderation ..
Then it dawned on me ?? Maybe that is the problem.
Ya caint believe in moderation ...
We just gotta decide for ourselves.. Do I realy believe what I'm believing ..or ..
Do I just "think" that I'm believing what somebody told me to believe?
If there is a literal Hell, I wouldn't be the one sending you there. I believe Heaven or Hell, people ultimately go where they really want to go.
Oh goodness no. You'd burn us all at the stake if we let you.
Well, I'm glad everyone's wearing underwear. Without it life would be a bit "breezy." I am ecstatic that we have established the wearing of underclothing here on this thread. Chaulk another up for intelligent discussion.
We are not the only one's with sacred clothing. In fact most faiths have various forms of sacred clothing - even more than us. So to keep pressing the matter of our "underwear" is self serving and expands the scope of ignorance that is prevalent with many. I wear my sacred "underwear" as it is an outer expression of an inner commitment to follow the Lord Jesus Christ. It also prevents the winter "breeze."
Ho ho ho! That's a real knee slapper! Don't quit your day job because comedy may not be up your alley. Keep trying though. I have faith in your efforts of excellence in this field of expertise.
No personal attacks please. They make Jesus cry.
Good advice. Now we both have something in common. Let's both take it to heart and ponder a higher road of dialogue.
Not until you acknowledge my comedic excellence.
What? Underwear? We all have to wear them? A forum rule?!!!!
(sneaks away quietly)
My underwear is white. I am a pure soul. It is fresh from the laundry so it even smells lemony fresh. I suppose I should get points for lemony freshness.
Why is everyone ganging up on the Mormon? Just leave the Presbyterians alone! lol
hmmm...popped back in to see how the discussion was developing...and there is apparently concern about GP's skivies Hope it all works out!
Hello borcich! GP makes me sound too official and a target. If everyone would like they can just refer to me as the short guy with a shiny dome. That was a joke by the way! I've earned every hair loss...
Serious question. Are you allowed to eat it?
Sure, even though it can sometimes resemble the product of a sick dog in the park. It is sweet and uplifting nonetheless!
Doesn't it have caffeine? I thought caffeine was a no no.
Good observation. Yes, caffeine is not recommended for the body. We try to avoid caffeinated products of such levels as to "unnaturally" increase the heart and metabolic rate. Caffeinated drinks are among this category, however, chocolate is not. Good observation though. Part of our code of health is to avoid those things that resist the Spirit from fully entering and affecting the the body and spirit of the person. True, chocolate is fattening but I'm far from perfect. Thanks for reminding me of something to work on.
What Habee was saying is that chocolate has caffeine in it - quite a lot of caffeine, in fact.
I know, because my ex had to give up all caffeine due to a stomach ulcer. And that included coffee, tea, Coke and chocolate.
If you're not allowed to consume caffeine, the only chocolate you can eat is the best quality Belgian and Swiss chocolate, which is made differently. My ex made an absolute pig of himself when we were in Switzerland!
I'm not nearly as patient as GP but I've seen the enlightened go after him with a vengence when he was nothing but polite. So to protest your innocense only goes to prove you are truely lost and in need of guidence. GP and I are different people but we serve the same God and hold to the same beliefs. I work construction and listen to a load of garbage everyday so the secular crowd are no different than the uneducated laborers trying to expess themselves about something they know nothing about.
are you sure you're talking about the secular crowd?
'cuz you just described the average teabagger.
I wouldn't worry about it too much, sneako. Anyone who believes a great civilization once existed here without leaving any evidence whatsoever, can convince themselves of anything. No amount of evidence to the contrary will have any meaning to those of your zany cult.
Watch out when the priests offer you kool-aid though. Even if it is sugar free kool-aid
I think there is proof of civilized sociaties in America the Mississippian and Anazazi are a couple that come to mind and they are both well documented. Time to start developing an INFORMED opinion rather than just going the way of the uneducated laborers but, suit yourself.
There is ample evidence for past civilizations in America, but no shred of evidence anything Joseph Smith made up in the book of mormon about the mentioned civilization has ever come to light.
Since the aforementioned Smith civilization was exterminated except for one individual, who hid the remains of the cities and technology. What happened to the wheel?
Randy you can manipulate facts to believe what you want its none of my buisness but, if you chose to insult my beliefs I will gladly point out your foolish hipocracy. If you can get past that we can always be opponents with friendship always in sight.
I really wish you no ill will, sneako. But when a religious cult, and Mormonism is just that, decides to ignore historical facts because it doesn't jibe with their religious beliefs, it doesn't bode well for harmony.
I think you are probably a good person without being a Mormon. But this doesn't exclude you from being taken in by false information. I would not cast doubt on any factual evidence to support your beliefs. I have looked hard for evidence to support your religion, but there is none.
Well documented but having no link with mormonism's fabled past.
No idea to whom you are refering, and I don't really care either.
Hey sneak! I just got back last night from the San Diego Temple. That place is huge and beautiful. My niece was married and sealed therein. I am back in Iowa now and am suffering palm tree withdrawals. Oh my aching heart....
I've heard it is beautiful we had an Elder from there and it really sounds beautiful! What a great way to celebrate the union of those we love, that is truely romantic! Hey I've been busy replacing palms down here we lost to the freeze. I was visiting my son at his university this weekend he was in the schools performance of Arthur Millers "All My Son's". It was a very short visit because he's approaching finals. It's good to know your near!
Someday we'll hook up and chew the fat! I'd love to move your records here. I'm always trying to get visitors to tell me their birthdays so I can transfer their records. Nobody's biting yet though. Crap!
I don't tread on anyone's beliefs, and I don't like for mine to be stepped on, either.
Back to the chocolate thing: I had a good friend who was Mormon, and she couldn't consume caffeine. Chocolate has caffeine in it, right? I'm just curious.
Hey sneaks! Not sure if word has gotten to you but there have been some awesome discoveries on various islands relating to the shipbuilders from the Nephite nation. It's all for naught though because the world will just dismiss any scientific evidence and claim it of some other origin. That's alright though. Keep firm to the foundation of faith and the winds and tempests will only serve to strengthen us in the end.
Time to rest my weary belly. Had a Stake meeting this evening. Long trip to Council Bluffs. Night night...
I am a Christian and my faith plays a big part in my life. I am hesitant to enter religious forums because I am embarassed by the way some Christians conduct themselves.
I don't ask anyone to agree with me and I am perfectly fine with those who do not hold to my beliefs thinking I am crazy or wrong.
What I can not stomach is the supremist attitude most Christians possess. If I was Jesus I would have left before most of us showed up as well.
I wish there were a "like" button on the forums, 'cos I'd push it for this comment.
Ya'll wouldn't trample other peoples' rights, or support the idiots who do. If most religionists were as reasonable, there'd be no need for dissent.
Thanks for sharing your perspective.
Very much so, wish they were all like that.
If more Christians were like that, there'd probably be more Christians.
"Had the doctrines of Jesus been preached always as pure as they came from His lips, the whole civilized world would now have been christian." -Thomas Jefferson
Of course, not believing in Jesus' divinity himself, he meant it in the nonmiraculous sense of the word.
Hi Sambo - the issue is not a persons religion or beliefs so much as exactly what you point to - the combination of their religion with their political views. The danger is well documented through history, if people justify their politics using their religion then there is little reason in both sides of them, they are blindly firing at the 'other' and must have a n other always in their sights.
The modern world is too dangerous for that kind of redundant thinking, we have to make clear reasoned decisions. God-like powers are in the hands of less than god-like people, we can now smite from above, destroy cities and countries at an oily whim. I for one would prefer to see the keepers of those powers as intelligent reasoning people who do not try follow the rambling predictions of a book made from a few random old papers.
Christians in Europe held back progress for a thousand years, in China the Buddhists did the same for a few hundred years - if religion was kept as a personal thing, the way you do, it would not harm society.
Finally! A believer who can see that a good deal of the bad behavior comes from them!
Oh but most of them sure love to make the 'damned godless atheist' the scapegoat -just as religionists have always done. If they were still allowed to, I'm sure they'd kill us to prevent us from talking. All in the name of a god of course.
Thank you for commenting Sambo.
Hi PB you are in good form today, cut down on the coffee a bit or you will be worn out tomorrow
I was supposed to stop in briefly, and then go sign up for a slew of bookmarking sites. (sigh) Eh well, working on a sunday isn't a sin, but it is a shame. Subconsciously I'm sure I started this thread just to avoid all that boring technical stuff. LOL.
Thanks for the laughs but gotta crash now. Must rise early and catch a few rattlers for the local churches or their next services will be spoiled.
I'm out as well. If ya'll don't see me here for a few days it means I'm being productive.
It has been said by a number of writers in the past such as the Marque de Sade (probably not the best authority on the good life) that if Jesus were to return various Christian outfits that had done so well on establishing themselves as his representatives based on his previous teachings might well see themselves in trouble.
Jesus was a peaceful type who showed extraordinary mercy and understanding for the time in which he lived. When people claim to be Christians but show no signs of mercy for others or attempts to understand others I take them to be frauds. Why not point this out? Why take things so seriously here anyway?
And hey! I never said there were not good religious types around true to their beliefs. Of course there are and they deserve some respect.
While any debate is based on opinion and belief, rather than on verifyable evidence, there will always be a conflict of views.
"Never enter into dispute or argument with another. I never yet saw an instance of one of two disputants convincing the other by argument. I have seen many becoming rude and shooting one another."
"It is not he who gains the exact point in dispute who scores most in controversy -- but he who has shown the better temper."
All these words, here and on every other thread have not broken one chain that binds one to bigotry or prejudice or belief or science and not one soul has been saved. IMHO
You are right, Charlie! It seems to be the old "exercise in futility" which never solves anything. But we continue to try, nonetheless!
I think I got saved once...Im not sure it stuck tho.
I got invested, and I earn an average return of 6.2% per annum.
Ralwus there are such people as Christian scientists. There are such people as Christian scientists who believe the theory of evolution doesn't conflict with being a Christian.
Don't see myself as a bigot or as someone who is prejudice when I talk about Jesus as compassionate and understanding. He dined with tax collectors. When the wine ran out at a wedding he turned water into wine. He stopped a woman from being stoned to death. He sound like an alright guy from these accounts.
Be Christian but also be like Jesus. The results might surprise some.
I know these things as well, but my point is, what good has it done for either side here in the forum. A fabric torn away like the Veil of the Temple is all I have seen.
Opinions have been expressed and I do believe there have been the beginnings of friendship made. Sounds okay to me. Oh and there have been a few laughs expressed. No mountains moved. That might take some time.
The problem is those who wish to deny modern knowledge when it clashes with the ancient teachings. I particularly dislike the Mormon beliefs which go far beyond any of the traditional cults teachings.
I'm not saying the Mormons aren't good folks, but teaching fake history to their children doesn't bode well for the child's sense of reality. At what point does teaching false religious doctrines become a bad thing?
Teaching untruth is always a bad thing. The price you might have to pay for religious freedom in your country is that you might have to let them do it to their own children.
Maybe introducing 1984 by George Orwell to the Mormons might help.
No, this wouldn't work either, Rod. They are only allowed to believe what their "priests" tell them to believe. But as you point out, it's the price our country pays for religious freedom.
Anyone can form a religion here or be ordained by a mail order ordination company. This gives false credibility to an already incredible doctrine.
Yes, coppyrights have expired; we are allowed sell as many generic religions as the people will buy.
As the numbers increase and the quality of the generic brands decline, faith in the origional product is lost.
There is always a price to pay for freedom.
Excellent question. I wonder if people could agree on the answer. I'd particularly like to hear what the religious think about that.
Exactly! Drip drip drip. I think people outside of the rel. forums really don't see the good in it all through the push and shove.
And hey, the drip can work both ways. To some extent.
Exposing the man behind the curtain? LOL
The conversation has changed, largely due to the internet. I'm sure someone will say something negative about that, but I am certain it's a good thing.
There's also Christian Science, which I was surprised to discover isn't all that keen on science. Confusing...
http://christianscience.com/questions/a … n-science/
If we are talking Scientology then we are discussing pretty weird science indeed. Based on a SF novel created by Hubbard and a lark on Hubbard's part it just goes to show how foolish and easily taken in some people can be.
Remember the Orange people? They were big in the '70s. Colorful but wackos nonetheless.
Oh I disagree. I know that they do help people to see things from new and different perspectives, but it's true that few people bother publically admitting it. There's no reason for them to do so.
That's why I don't argue religion, Charlie! How ya doin'?
Where is the love this should be the place that all are welcome we been given a message of love,unity and faith.Those who reject still need our love loving a operson is not accpeting the way they live it's accpeting that they are still achild of God lost but with hope as long as they are breathing.Share the hope today not the mess remember Jesus came for sinners.
A long hard look in the mirror should answer any question you, ron, randy or any of your ilk have about why people avoid these threads.
I think that Christians sometimes get a bad rap.
Everyone can see the faults of everyone else from a hundred yards away. No one can see their own even when looking up close and in the mirror.
Yes there are loud mouthed, obnoxious, overbearing Christians.
The same can be said for other faiths and nonbelievers as well.
The big diffrence is when a Christian does it they/we/I, add to the list of faults ... "Hypocracy".
When people hide behind religion to do their dirty deeds??
It's kinda like if someone hides behind me and shoots a police officer; am I guilty for Capital murder?????
I think YES if I allow it to happen repediatly.
I think atheists get a bad rap, which has been perpetuated by the christians for two thousand years. Indeed, we continue to be persecuted by them.
funy how the mind works ..
My statement began with a wrong phrase.
I didn't intend for it to sound that Christians were exclusively getting a bad rap.
I apologise for starting the statement with what must have looked like a left hook. Unintentional I promise.
Was there anything else in the post found offensive?
No, not at all, not even the first line. I don't agree with it really, but I didn't take offense. Just, you know, had to represent, lol.
I got your point in the post, but I don't agree because christians claim to be holier than thou. Since they claim it, and their bible affirms it, the fact that they don't live it is fair fodder, I reckon. Though of course many do live it, or try to at any rate.
No offense taken, Jerami, I've read your posts long enough to know that you do not endeavor to offend. You're one of the most even-tempered and tolerant people here.
And return the favor with great enthusiasm, too.
Really! What rights of religionists have been threatened or impeded upon? What freedoms have been denied you? Who has been murdered by atheists due to their beliefs?
Do tell all about how you've been persecuted. Oh yeah, I remember. You told me before. You have a difficult time finding a good cup of coffee in Salt Lake City. Well you can't blame that on atheists!
The fact that if you enter an open religion discussion forum you may have to hear opinions about how silly and damaging your religion really is hardly counts as persecution. Also not real impressive is the fact that if you open a newspaper you'll read proof of it.
If you read a newspaper about ongoings in China or pick up a hostiry book abo9ut the Soviet Union, Vietnam, Cuba, et cetera, you'll find ample proof that atheisists as a group are not guiltless.. Calling religion silly is an insult. Calling religion damaging is an accusation. There are ways of saying you disagree with a religion without making any insults or accusations.
I take part in religious forums and the most interesting thing is the all try to write from their own point of view,not stick to any religious-most of all behave like all knowing-I think they are quite used to this kind of religious wisdom,fun and fantasy, many times i found that only one Muslim guy voluntarily answering everyone
yes.. I fear entering some of the forums... i like to stay away from anger, confrontation and hostility (which is odd since I a agreed to get married)
You badly need a divorce along with a couple "barely legal" teens for ya personal remedy... Hmm, surely Zeus will approve of such conduct. LOL!
Huh. I don't think you're ever offensive Greek One. I love your funny comments.
you see how mean Obscure Divine is to me, Pandoras Box!!
Indeed, that was quite a burden he offered you.
he suggested divorce, followed by fornication with not one, but TWO teenagers.
DO I see like the kind of guy who would get divorced??
So skip the divorce, take "two", and call us in the morning, lol. I guarantee you'll feel better. Unless your wife kills you, that is.
I'm not afraid of the religious forum. I just don't see the point. It doesn't matter to me what other people believe, and what I believe isn't up for discussion.
It's a personal thing, religion.
I'm not afraid of this forum, it's really quite interesting.
I stay out of them as I lost my last set of boxing gloves.
You know, I'm one of those bad hubbers everyone is referring to in general. And I don't know why I do that. It is not like I do that in "real" life. In real life, I'm passive and could really careless about how or what people believe; much less giving two poops about it to argue and debate over it anymore. That is why I got out of my first career choice as a Religious teacher and educator and went into CAD Design and construction. Big switch-a-roo.
I seriously don't know why I get worked up over the stupid stuff in this religious forum. It is something I do need to work on.
I can completely understand people not wanting to come into the forum. Why, when you've got hateful people like me running free.
Really good subject matter for a forum post. I appreciate you bringing up the subject.
IE I don't think you're hateful. I haven't seen that.
Maybe like most of us you occassionally lose your patience or something, but I haven't seen it, or certainly haven't seen enough of it to make that impression on me.
I always find your posts fair and informative!
Well thank you, however I feel that maybe I've been harsh or unfair. But I think you said it best, it is our human nature. Why I lose my fuse more quickly in an Internet forum, verses in real life I cannot explain. That is my own quest to search out.
Moreover though- it has been my past experience with people in general- when it comes to religion, American/Christians are probably shocked, by others peoples positioning in these forums. Most Christian Americans do not come into contact with sooooooooo many people, of different religious and faith based affiliations.
I think that has alot to do with people being run off in the forums.
If a little old Christian woman comes into THIS religious forum, and encounters the likes of myself, Mark Knowles, Qwark or any of us, she'd most likely be shocked and gone. Therefore, I don't think it is totally our fault as a community for people coming and going so often in the forums.
Americans are generally naive when it comes to religion. Maybe we just need to keep that in mind more often.
You're right. It might be a culture shock to some.
You know I really tend to think it is. I know in my community, when people find out that "I" let my son choose to be an Atheist, is met with hostility and shock. I'm like; look here people, first of all here, it is not like "I" have any control of it in the first place. But people become stand offish. But I also know that has a lot to do with the fact of my degree and past profession as a Religious historian and teacher. However, in the bible belt Christianity is so ingrained that I certainly feel that plays important role in why there is so much hostility in the forums. Furthermore, look at Sarah Palin and her words about the US being a Christian nation. When we have that kind of ignorance floating around amongst our own leaders.........., well what more can be said? You know what I mean?
makes a ton of sense, everybody's right, when there is no need for the ridiculous judgements and behaviors, opinions sure anyway.....nice post intimate shows what kind of person you really are
off to snooze
Yeah honestly I don't really know why I didn't look at it that way before. The term helps drive home the reality of it for some. They really are clueless of the world outside of their church community and maybe Faux News.
And even for me, I mean I was no innocent, but when I was questioning my faith and would encounter atheists in forums and such, I was really put off by their harshness and crudity. So yeah, surely I ought to be able to understand how shocking and even revolting it can be to people who have been immersed in it their whole lives.
Oddly enough, my son attends the local methodist church, much to my chagrin. Go figure. LOL Maybe they're both just rebelling?
He goes for the girls, I am sure. There's not much else around here, rural area.
Anyway I always told them they have to make their own decision about it when they're ready to. Of course that didn't stop me from educating them.
But I'm glad you put it that way. It's one thing to say they don't understand, but when you say it's a culture shock it brings out more clearly how very much so for at least some of them.
Which will hopefully make me more patient.
This sounds like you are not an american. I thought you were?? That changes everything. Not really
NO, I'm a proud American. I live in Columbia, Missouri. Raised in Butte, Montana. I don't know how my post, could have sounded anything but American. I don't see it. What would lead you to believe I'm not American?
I think that with my bluntness, arrogance and brutal honesty over and over here on hubpages- would tell you that I'm nothing but an American.
Jerami- Some Americans are actually intelligent you know. Some of us can be very practical and logical. Not all Americans are overgrown baboons.
Get this- I'm so American, I am insulted by your post. And I know you Jerami, I know you meant no ill will or harm in your post towards me. But does that change my feelings- no. You insulted me. An American.
Now I must ask you, how American is that? Pretty damn American right?
I don't know what to say ??? but I'll try.
I said "I thought you were an American. That changes everything... NOT". I didn't intend to offend,
Since I did; I am sorry.
You ask why I said that?
Moreover though- it has been my past experience with people in general- when it comes to religion, American/Christians are probably shocked, by others peoples positioning in these forums
...If a little old Christian woman comes into THIS religious forum, and encounters the likes of myself, Mark Knowles, Qwark or any of us,
I thought that you were setting yourself apart from "Us".
And then I did ask .....in what I thought was a "funny" way. Guess it wasn't so funny. Sorry
and posting a thread calling for 'everyone' to get people you don't like banned. don't forget that.
Cosette, you did wrong. I actually LIKED you. Please, don't use me as an escape goat FOR YOUR HORRIFIC behavior.
Cleary from my post, you at least can see I'm honest with myself and others. Where YOU clearly are not. YOUR little snide comment, shows everyone how little integrity you have, and how much I do have.
Please, grow up. You hurt people purposefully Cosette. Own it, it was YOUR actions. I just called you out for what you really were. Which was horribly mean bully.
um, it's "scapegoat", not "escape goat"
i have no idea who you are...don't read you or visit your profile...which makes your little vendetta against me all the more puzzling... you follow me in thread after thread, even though i ignore you completely. you "liked" me? and now you don't? aw...that hurts - NOT.
this is all very strange.
now, don't talk to me about "owning" anything. i don't hide behind sockpuppets like you or your friends...i say what i have to say as myself. can you and your buddies say the same?
i can't hear you...
didn't think so.
you posted in my thread that "people don't support me"...really?
how long have you been here?
and yet i have way more followers than you do, so i don't know where you get this "information" from that i am hugely unpopular. oh, and made-up stuff doesn't count, by the way. if i have lost one or two followers over your and your buddies' little drama fests, they weren't my friends to begin with, so it is of no concern to me. besides, did it ever occur to you that i might be the one to distance myself from individuals like you and your ilk?
your fascination with me and my activities is really quite stalkerish, i have to say.
don't attempt to paint me as a "bully" when it is YOU who are doing the stalking and following around and attacking. i ignore you just as i ignore your little chums. at the same time, i don't cower in fear and have no qualms about speaking up when someone attacks me, sorry.
i'm not going to give you any more press by addressing you further. however, keep harrassing me and i will be only too happy to report you, 'k?
have a pleasant evening.
Do you realize how stupid this is Cosette? Apparently not, or you would just leave it alone.
Stupidity is not generally a charming virtue. Ignore it. Apparently she has gotten to you, or you would not have wasted ALL of our time here posting such a long thread. Send her an email next time, and give it a rest already.
Well, it must be me, the snake, that pisses everybody off then! Everyone else is so charming and patient in their attitudes. we snakes have always been the scapegoat..er, scapesnake since the beginning.
It's really very simple. Can't stand the heat? Avoid the kitchen! Those with easily hurt feelings are not required to read or participate in these threads. Don't cry and complain if you can't back up your statements or if you cannot answer a question posed to you.
Even though I have been called all sorts of names and even threatened one time, I've never reported anyone here on HP. I try really hard not to call people names or resort to personal attacks as it isn't conducive to engendering respect by one's protagonists. I didn't say I always succeed in my efforts at self control, but I try.
In fact, it's almost as if one loses the debate, argument, disagreement, whatever you wish to call it, if you have to resort to anything other than sarcasm, joking, incredulity, etc. and start name calling.
Or, as you say human nature. But it could also be dubbed "imhumane" nature for some.
Well, I confess that I reported someone who now has apparently chosen to leave. I'm sorry that he felt that way. I'm not naming him cuz I'm not sure doing so would be appropriate, but I think you guys know who it was.
I never have before in any forum or other setting, I was actually raised (by my four older sisters) not to be a tattle-tale. But then someone posted a thread strongly implicating a call for the death of the pres., and to me reporting him was a no-brainer.
But the one I refer to in the first paragraph was later and something else. I reported him as a way to deal with his never-ending, insulting comments which do cause problems, without engaging him in it. He could give, and give and give, but he couldn't take, and a good deal of his givings were in the form of accusing nonbelievers of starting trouble. When in fact he himself started a good deal of it. He also was holding a grudge against me that he wouldn't let go, and had indicated privately to me that he held me at least partially to blame for his last ban, not because I had reported him (I had not that time) but because I had engaged in his petty little game of trading disruptive comments. He had asked me not to respond to him in the future. I tried to honor that actually, only because ignoring him was easier and he avoided attacking me directly for awhile after that.
So there he was directly attacking me. Should I have responded to his provoking attacks when he had explicitly asked me not to do so? Should I have engaged in the childish trade of totally pointless insulting comments? I don't know. I probably should have ignored him.
I didn't want to fight, I wanted to be nice and maintain a nice tone in the rel. forums to try and do my part to not add to its bad reputation. So I ended up reporting him.
I'm trying to decide if I regret that or not. On one hand I'm sorry he felt compelled to leave. On the other hand I feel that it's too bad a person cannot take responsibility for his own actions, admit he did it, laugh it off, and come back to fight again another day -hopefully with a better, less antagonostic attitude.
I'm over the drama, seriously I am. I confess that sometimes things get heated in the forums (all of them apparently) and I confess that sometimes I'm a little too harsh. I resolve to personally be more considerate of other peoples' feelings, but their positions if stated in the forums are still fair game.
If people wanna throw fits about it, take their toys and go home, then that's their problem. If I recall right when I signed up here I had to agree that i was at least 18 years old. I assume everyone else had to do so as well.
Sorry to those who will miss him, and I'm sorry that he felt inclined to leave, but I'm over it all and am not about to feel guilty about it or to blame.
People need to grow up.
You made a decision which you thought was right for you. Apparently HP agreed with you so you have that going for you. I prefer to fight my own battles on my own terms. But this is just the way I handle things.
You should feel completely clean since you got my share of Ex...er..Kit Kat Bar!
I use humor sometimes but I don't see myself as being an aggressive person here anyone need worry about.
As do I, and prior to the last couple of days I have never reported anyone for anything, it isn't my style. But you can't have reasonable discussion without all the flaming when there's people who consistantly and pointlessly flame others.
Certainly I've handled him before, and more than once, which is one of the reasons he bore a grudge against me. For the sake of 'peace' in the forums, I thought I'd try letting the powers that be handle it this time. It was either that or more flame wars.
At any rate, sorry it turned out this way, but I'm not losing any sleep over it.
Like I said, in here, life is like a box of candy, you never know what your going to get.. Hmm, I think that was taken from the Forest Gump movie. Choc not candy however.
I do know this though. I'm done with the drama.
It isn't me, it isn't us, and it isn't the religious forums.
Hi earnest - I have just mentioned you in other thread - hope you don't mind I took your name in vain !
Where ya been hiding Earnest? Haven't seen you for some time now.
I got my son a banjo a couple nights ago. He wanted one and I found one reasonable. Now I need to find him some lessons.
I self taught myself to play five string banjo using Earl Scruggs tabs for "Foggy Mountain Breakdown," Sir Dent. A slow process but if you can learn this one song the rest is easy.
Thanks Randy. I'll check into it. He knows how to do the finger roll though he is very slow with it. The Banjo is an instrument I never had interest in learning.
Learning the proper techniques should be done slowly as speed will come later on. Good luck to your son! I play several instruments but the banjo seems to fascinate people the most.
I play guitar some but the bass is my favorite.
Four string tenor guitar is what I used to do a bit (really like a big ukelele)-- anything with four strings is easier than six or twelve.
I played bass professionally for a while and it was a lot of fun. Much easier than lead or rhythm guitar which I also played for many years.
Me neither, but then I never had too much interest in learning any instrument. That said, I love banjo music. i love all music though.
Good for your son, I say, because not too many choose the banjo anymore.
That is so cool Sirdent!
I love banjo, but never mastered it. More power to him, if he is like his dad he will be very musical indeed!
I still need a link to your music. I could not find the last one.
My 21 yo son came around yesterday and played me some new stuff on my Martin. Wonderful thing music!
Okay, totally off-topic, but when I first saw your HubPages handle, I read it as "earnesttubb" rather than "earnestshub." I expected hubs about down-home country music.
Do they have "down home country music" in Aussie land?
Country music in Australia? You bet we do have it.
We have country singers, the works. Look up Slim Dusty. Mind you earnesthub could fill in more of the details. So there you go Randy. Oh, and our country singers are great.
Would you believe they also have country music in Poland. Pirate radio stations in that country used to play American country music just to annoy the local Communist authorities. Then bands that were made up of Polish teens and 20-somethings started up doing their versions of American country music firstly in English and then in Polish. Before long these bands were creating their own songs and I believe it is still going on there. Strange as it may be to some people but the sound of country music over there probably still rings out freedom and defiance against foreign rule.
Glad you're back, Earn, everybody missed you!
I'm 5'3" and have often been called an Umpa Lumpa. Names are fun! Whether Mormon or Moron I accept either because it is only a perception from someone else's point of view. Especially in here when hardly any of us know each other face to face. Now how's that for nerdy?
Yer my favorite nerd, goldenpath.
I know many Mormons and a couple of morons. I think they all have something valuable to offer. Some of my favorite teachers in public school were LDS, and a couple were Catholic or "no response" on the official checklists.
Let people bloom where they are planted, and appreciate the beauty in each.
Not nerdy at all goldenpath unless you want to be. Acceptance really isn't a nerdy thing.
Cool Rochelle Frank, do let people bloom where they are planted. As for appreciating others, well, its been a nice warm autumn day so I'll go along with that view as well.
I do not think they are afraid and what kind of slash you are talking about? Nothing will happen to them if they participate in teh forums like this.. and for me every religion is equal and must be respected..
You are a brave, strong, and proud woman Holly.
It's no secret that you and I disagree profoundly on the issue of religion, yet we have become friends. We have everything in common except... well, that one thing.
I've said this before, but I'll repeat it here:
The personal strength and comfort you get from your belief is a beautiful thing.
I can speak for most atheists.
Spirituality and personal faith are not what we are arguing about. Every person needs a spark of something. For you, it is god. For me, it is something different.
Be well and stay strong!
I appreciate the compliments and yes - we think differently but we have become friends:) Been hoping you were doing ok as I haven't seen you much lately. Has spring hit you yet or is there more snow rolling in up there?
I really do not think I am braver or stronger than anyone else.
When we are born, we are given a chance at life. We somehow are convinced we are entitled to a full life and all the best. When it doesn't work out that way, most look for who is to blame and get consumed with feeling cheated when all we really had was a chance.
Just don't ever pity me. I have lived my life to the bone. Holly
Pity is the LAST thing that comes to mind. The first thing that comes to mind is respect. (Followed immediately by an argument )
With the death of my daughter and niece, I lost that sense of entitlement you mention. A chance really is all we have - you are correct.
Your faith has given you peace.
In my case, during those dark times, I did try to look to the church. I was devastated beyond a point where I could function.
I was completely sincere about it. Unpacked my bible that I put in a box 20 years ago, flipped through some Psalms, talked to my catholic mother...
Then I smacked myself upside the head. It was a lie that I was desperately trying to justify.
I called my mom and made her cancel the graveside ceremony she was planning up in my home town. (One of the girls is buried with my dad.) She was upset but she understands where my faith lies. She's not offended by it.
We did a gathering instead without any religious presence and it was a relief to me not to have to do the "polite and smile" routine.
I was not about to lie on behalf of my own daughter.
It's been a long time since I talked about this but you're willing to be open, so I don't feel like I'm playing a drama game. It's nice to just be honest and not hide what I went through - I can't do this very well in real life.
I am so sorry you have known such a loss. You did what you needed to find whatever peace was available and that is important. It is the journey and chance in and of life itself.
So much of life I do not understand, but I am thankful I know we can set aside whatever we see differently long enough to stand as friends when friends and kindness are needed. You know I am here if I can ever be of help to you
We became friends not because of what we view differently, I think we became friends because we saw something similar. We can share a topic, differ in opinion and still be friends. Honest friends. Respectful friends who love a good debate
You a drama queen? Not hardly. I am a real person behind the avatar, and I think you are doing great at the real life thing with me! Maybe we can start a trend or spread civility and kindness to epidemic proportions in cyberspace Holly
Even in the ugliest argument, I'm fighting with the idea not the person.
I wish more people would understand this - not just for my part, but for everybody.
Here is a smile for ya (I never get tired of this one.)
i already made a forum similar to this topic a while back that wasn't as popular as this one for whatever reason. lol. i guess it's because the only time you people talk to me is when i have that damn kitty sniper avatar and/or im opening up forums about sex related stuff. lol. oh well. anyway, here's the forum link to hear my thoughts that might answer why people are afraid to talk in religious forums. although since this post has NOTHING to do with sex, and i don't have my sniper kitty avatar, i doubt seriously any of you will even bother reading this post or check out the link. lol. oh well. i guess the damn cat gets more respect around here than me.
Practicing any religion is one's own choice completely and there should not be any debate in it... why people are making so much fuss about the religion topic? And why are they afraid in sharing their viws about religious beliefs?
Awesome! I t has been added to my anti-religion collection.
It is a big collection.............
Perhaps a hub with your "collection" would be entertaining. Well.... for some of us anyway!
I second that. If you have time to write some clever commentary, or perhaps some analysis of the animosity between believers in different things, or between believers and nonbelievers, or even the false dichotomy between faith and science, the images in this collection would be great illustrations.
Of course, there's always believers (and non-believers) with no sense of humor who'll get all angry...
Oh - I have tried to explain why there is a high level of animosity. Mostly for me it is using words like "proof" and "evidence" in new ways that invalidate me and my reasoning abilities.
"Deaf ears" comes to mind.........
For a history of religion, that's pretty darn accurate!
Earnest, I am curious to ask -while I agree and enjoy the humor greatly- what has science not killed or decimated for the sake of discovery. I mean, digging up dead bodies to study their anatomy seems pretty -what's the word- megalomaniac and just plain rude no?
Pity those without a sense of humor. Fancy going through life that way. What a horrid existence.
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