Poems should be well-crafted, and not random scribbles!

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   Pratonixposted 13 years ago

   I think many of you will agree with me when I say that poems should be well-crafted and not random scribbles. Good poetry has depth and meaning, and is a joy to read and listen to. Poems should be taut and compact, with 'the right words in the right places'. After all, a poem is not mere gushing emotion, but it's a work of art. (Poems with careless grammatical and spelling mistakes can be horrifying!)
   
   What do you say?

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      leebertteaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Beauty, and consequently art, is in the eye of the beholder. Write what you want, the number of views will determine how good it is, but mainly the author should be the one that's satisfied.

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         Sufidreamerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         ^ This
         
         Poetry, like any art, is about self-expression. As long as the author conveys their feelings, then everything else is irrelevant. It is not for you to decide what poetry should and should not be.

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            Freya Cesareposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Agree!!!

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      DoorMattnomoreposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      please do not read my hubs then. you will be horrified.

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      Freya Cesareposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      My poem is pure product of my emotion. It is flowing like that and do not need to be think but to feel. So, if it is not similar with art at all, I don't mind as long as my goal in writing them had already achieved.

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      Pearldiverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      What do you say?
      
      Does it matter what is said if you don't agree with it?
      
      You Sir are NOT REQUIRED to be either a Self Proclaimed Expert on Religion OR a Self Proclaimed Expert On Poetry as it exists on this site!
      
      I think it would be fair to say that your TROLL-Like behaviour is Upsetting more than Me.
      
      Factually You are neither - you are a newbie here with NO RESPECT for existing members here - you have promoted yourself as being superior to others here - You Are Not any better than any other 4 day old newbie (as far as I'm concerned) - You have MADE NO EFFORT to read/comment on the works of others - And FACTUALLY I don't believe that any of the VERY FINE POETS that we have here appreciate your BlowArse General Opinions of what you consider to be Right or Wrong for this site!!
      
      You Seek Attention and Your Seek Following - perhaps to stroke that Ego that you are displaying rudely here.
      
      I would suggest that you take the time to get to know your peers before you start Preaching Your Views.
      
      In that way you may gain more respect than you are currently gaining as a direct consequence of your attitude!
      
      Put your opinion in a hub!
      It might surprise you to find that there are some very talented people here..
      And on poetry... I Personally Don't Need You Telling ME How To Write OK!!
      
      @ Sufi............ Totally agree
      This one is a Troll I Believe

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         Beth100posted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Excellently spoken, as always.

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      Arthur Fontesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Not every one has the education to be grammatically correct. I have heard freestyle poetry that was far from being in any way correct.   Yet it was still very good poetry.

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         Georgie98posted 13 years agoin reply to this

         I had the standard education that the majority of us have, and I learnt a lot about grammar.  So I hope my poetry and prose is grammatically correct, or to a decent standard at least.
         I am a newbie on here, but I also know that some don't get the same education as others, and standards shouldn't be expected of any of us, no matter what educational background you have.
         Poetry can be written in many forms, if you don't like it, don't comment and don't read anymore of that poets work.
         Rapping is considered poetry, that doesn't follow your standard poems, but millions of people worldwide adore it.

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      McHamletposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I find the ad-hominem attacks here hard to understand. I don't know Pratonix so I can't comment on him or her personally but I think it would be more productive to address his or her points than react with such rancour.
      
      Point 1: "poems should be well-crafted and not random scribbles. "
      
      A random scribble requires no thought or skill so I don't see anything controversial in this view.
      
      Point 2: "Good poetry has depth and meaning, and is a joy to read and listen to. "
      
      Well, of course.
      
      Point 3: "Poems should be taut and compact, with 'the right words in the right places"
      
      Here it really depends; but on the whole there's nothing controversial or offensive in this view.
      
      Point 4: "a poem is not mere gushing emotion, but it's a work of art."
      
      I would say the two are not mutually exclusive.
      
      Point 5:"Poems with careless grammatical and spelling mistakes can be horrifying"
      
      The key word here is 'careless'. Poetry does not need to obey rules of spelling and grammar, but if it breaks them there should be a reason even if it's an unspoken one.
      
      There are no rules to writing poetry and nobody can say definitively what good and bad poetry is, but if we accept that good and bad poetry exists just like good and bad art exists then we have to accept that in principle there is nothing offensive or controversial about someone giving an opinion on how to make it better. On the other hand if you think neither good or bad art exists then what's the point in being involved with art at all? I've written poetry here and I've read poetry here and some of the poetry I've read has in my view been far superior to other poetry I've read. I don't see any big deal in that. I'd rather smell a rose than a weed, I find horses more beautiful than rats, and I'd rather read Joyce than Nick Sparks. That doesn't mean I can say definitively that one is better than the other only that I believe it is. And I don't see Pratonix saying anything here other than what he believes makes good poetry.

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         Pratonixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Thank you, McHamlet. I appreciate everything that you have said, and I believe that good poetry is 'a work of art'. I too would 'rather smell a rose than a weed'.

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      alternate poetposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      To come back to the original thread - What makes poetry what it is are the rules that it is written by, and the rules that are broken - both add layers of meaning.  It is possible to ignore the rules and make good poetry - if it connects on more than one level, making garbled prose look like poetry is not the same, throwing in a couple of rhyming ends says nothing if it is just for show.
      
      I think that what the OP is talking about is the outpouring of emotional pain, or hard to grasp concepts, that feel better if put in a poetic 'shape' - poetry talks in deeper or wider or higher or just other ideas than the words, and the better 'crafted' it is the better it expresses what it is saying and the more we can see that there is something there if we can reach it - the opposite of this is writing about something we do not understand, why he doesn't love me etc, then it becomes just an illustration of why he won't stay or displays only the lack of understanding of the writer.

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         Pratonixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         I fully agree with you when you say:
         "what the OP is talking about is the outpouring of emotional pain, or hard to grasp concepts, that feel better if put in a poetic 'shape' - poetry talks in deeper or wider or higher plane than just the words; and the better 'crafted' it is the better it expresses what it is saying and the more we can see that there is something there if we can reach it."
         
         Once again, thanks for understanding.

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      mohitmisraposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I agree with you Poetry originated with the Holy Vedas as far as we know,the most ancient spiritual text composed by the masters,the enlightened ones.
      It had a metrical length and rhyme.Th couplets or dohas  format was considered as the most condensed and highest form of philosophy possible and carried out only by the enlightened ones.
      The lenght and rhyme was ideal format for a human to comprehend and memorize.
      I do believe poetry has degenerated over the years and think Free verse is ruining this divine art.
      The Holy Bhagawat Gita,Ramayana,Bible,Holy Guru Granth Sahib  and Holy Quran are written in poetry,the best spiritual texts are poetry.
      Poetry goes beyond the limitations of any language and is not bound by the rules of grammar.
      The most important part is the message imparted through the poems as poets are messengers.

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         alternate poetposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         I am not sure that poetry started with the holy Vedas - I thought it started as arranging words in a memorable way to store and pass on information accurately orally - before writing was invented, any of the various writing methods.
         
         But we do know that Chinese Civil Servants had to pass their degree exam, or government test, by writing poetry to ensure that they could think at a higher level. This was a few hundred years BC while we were all being conquered (or civilized depending on how you look at it) by the Romans.
         
         Someone earlier got it about right - there is organised, or formal poetry and there is poetic-like stuff that may or may not be poetry but it expresses something that touches some people and it has a definate value - it just may not be valued as poetry per se.

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            mohitmisraposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            As far was we know the Holy Vedas is the oldest spiritual text and is written in dohas or couplets,classical poetry.
            Basically the highest and most condensed for of philosophy.
            Like Pratonix said 'the right words in the right places'

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               alternate poetposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               I think you miss my point - writing that could convey 'stories' came a long time after. EVERYTHING was retained orally and a poetic form is the best way to remember correctly, especially things considered to be so important that they should be remembered exactly.  So 'holy' scripts would have been written in poetry as it would be the oral story written down once writing could do it - so would everything else, like the Illiad and all the other ancient epics that got written down.

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                  mohitmisraposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  The poetic form of Dohas or couplets was found to be the best form for one to memorize, this was the most difficult form to write in as well.
                  There was a lot of meaning in poetry.
                  Poetry was the form used by the sages,the enlightened ones to spread god knowledge.
                  According to literary pundits a poetry book on god is possible and carried out only  by the sages as it was a mental exercise of the highest order possible only by the enlightened ones.
                  I repeat poetry is considered as the highest and most condensed form of philosophy.

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      Pollyannalanaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I think I take much time over my work, poetry as well, and I will see people with scribbles of nothing with high numbers when it is a constant job for me to keep my head above water(90). Some think it is because I don't write for pay just let ads go on some pages for thanks being here,instead of all my pages but I have no idea. Maybe I put too many hubs in? I thought that was good?

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       dutchman1951posted 13 years agoin reply to this

       well said, yes

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   2uesdayposted 13 years ago

   I believe the art in poetry comes from a poet's ability to convey his or her thoughts to another person. In poetry this is usually in a limited number of words or within a certain style which possibly makes it more difficult to do well than a writing form that has no such restrictions.
   
   Do grammatical errors and spelling mistakes horrify me?
   Horrify is not a word I would use to do with the creative written word. The news programmes are what currently horrify me in this world.
   
   This is spell checked but any grammatical errors are my entirely my own fault.

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      Pratonixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Poetry is art through words. It can be more beautiful than a painting or drawing. A poem should have the right balance of thought and emotion.
      
      And because it deals with words as art, it should be flawless. That's why grammatical errors and spelling mistakes can be 'jarring'. They reflect shoddy craftsmanship.

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         Freya Cesareposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Don't read my poems. Please, stay away from my hubs. They are fine without you commenting on them. And I don't want to caused you get heart attack by reading my poems.

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   ahorsebackposted 13 years ago

   Poetic Critics
   
   While a poem is in itself a messege
   and in it's form a painting.
   There are many different colors to use
   and yet the critics go on ranting.
   
   I once was voiceless and stilled
   not able to completely convey.
   All the jumbled emotions inside
   until I learned how to say.
   
   What difference is there to form
   As long as .....or how ever much.
   I for one ....have found a voice 
   that looks for others to touch.
   
   The magic is in the reading
   and how the heart responds.
   Thats where we form our friendships
   and how we make our bonds.

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      leebertteaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Exactly! The purpose of art is to evoke emotion, and what exactly is art, is up to the individual viewing it to decide.

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      Beth100posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Poetically stated. 

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      Freya Cesareposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Not art? So what?

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4. 61

   BobbiRantposted 13 years ago

   Poetry is hard to judge.  Like art, and some famous art looks like random scribbles to me, it is what people like that counts, and what the creator of the poems or art is satisfied with.

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   Steele Fieldsposted 13 years ago

   Poetry exposes a naked soul 
   Criticism pokes a hole

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      leebertteaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Well said.

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   Deborah Demanderposted 13 years ago

   Poetry is the essence of art
   emotion, expression, feeling
   compressed. distilled. formulated
   great depth
   without form
   stirs hearts

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   Bard of Elyposted 13 years ago

   I would agree with you but I know a very successful writer, author and poet with many books to his credit that got his break in the 60s writing "abstract poetry" which didn't rhyme and often looked like just a collection of words. There is a lot of this stuff published that doesn't really convey anything much to me!

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8. 76

   Shadesbreathposted 13 years ago

   I’m Mister Smarty Pants   
   And I know poetry,
   If you want your verse judged
   Feel free to ask me.
   
   I can tell you, “You suck”
   After just one verse or two
   I’ll even make comments
   So you know you suck too.
   
   Don’t poison my world
   With your emotions and stuff
   I’m a big know-it-all
   And you aren’t good enough.

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      mysterylady 89posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      ShadesBreath,  you rock!

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      Freya Cesareposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I'm with you 100%!

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      Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I'm a sucker for rhymed poetry.
      Yah, even that one, shadesbreath!  LOL
      
      
      I love the freedom (I call it poetic license) in writing poetry.
      Words can be coined or combined and it doesn't mean a person is illiterate, just imaginative sometimes.
      I don't like outright obvious typos or confused definitions, etc.
      
      But poetry is something that comes, usually, from the depths of the heart,  and that's what makes it so interesting to read and to write.

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      L a d y f a c eposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Epic!!

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   Llenaposted 13 years ago

   Despite being taught in school about haikus, limericks, and other sorts of poetry, my belief in the more general sense is that there seem to be two sorts of poetry that stand out the most.
   
   One: The sort of poetry that is perfect to a T. That has the exact amount of syllables, words, lines, and stanzas. Although some may seem robotic at times, it conveys a picture. Perhaps surroundings or emotions themselves.
   
   Two: Actually feeling the emotions and managing to place them one paper. Without regard to perfection and not really paying any attention whatsoever to the number of syllables in every line. Perhaps there may be some rhyming, maybe not. However, it conveys in a more introverted stance. That has the poet putting their entire being into what they write.

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    Lyzzizzleposted 13 years ago

    What is "flawless" art? Flawless is synonymous with perfect, wouldn't you say? Can anyone name a piece of art that is absolutely, irrefutably, factually perfect?
    
    No. Because there is no such thing as perfect in the world of art. Perfection only exists in the objective, while art is always subjective.
    
    And when you say "well-crafted," what are the parameters for that? Time spent? Because I can very easily spend hours working on a poem, trying to convey the proper emotions and invoke the feeling I want. But those same poems may occasionally contain grammatical errors, intentional or otherwise. I usually don't bother with much capitalization or punctuation in my poems, either. Does this mean they aren't "well-crafted", even though I spent so much time on them?
    
    
    When you come right down to it, every post in this thread is a matter of each individual's opinion. I highly doubt that anything we have to say will change or even affect your opinion in the slightest, but as a writer, I felt the need to express myself on this matter. And so I did.

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    ahorsebackposted 13 years ago

    One word or a thousand , the beauty of it lies in its affect on the reader....Two can read the same words and one will live by a poem, the other will forget it immediately.

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    alternate poetposted 13 years ago

    Poetry has a long history, reaching back further than the written word. If every part of what makes poetry is ignored then what is written risks becoming something else; in the way that a very short novel becomes a short story or magazine article.  It is an issue of genre, not what makes poetry.
    
    Poetry itself can be roughly subdivided and new kinds of poetry are constantly emerging, the latest, biggest, is probably rap music lyrics; a few years ago nobody would have given much credit for any rap lyric words, but with the genre established and with some history we can formulate the beat and we have some 'other' stuff in our heads when we read it or hear it - that makes it what it is.
    
    Formal poetry uses and conciously breaks formal rules, such as rhyme scheme and other structural devices. These devices respond to our thinking in basic ways and are a form of meta-language that talks about deep issues that sometimes cannot be spoken normally.
    
    Emotional poetry can resonate with anyone who hears the message, without it having any real poetic 'form'. Other stuff can also resonate with people who think in similar ways.
    
    The more formal the poem the more it is clearly poetry, and there is a lot of bad poetry - the less formal it is the less it is clearly poetry, and there is a lot of good poetry without any form or shape or anything much really.  Sorting the good stuff from the rubbish would take a braver man than me

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       Pratonixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       When you spoke of 'formal poetry' (I especially like the 3rd and 5th paras of your response), I think you got to understand the spirit of the opening post. Thanks.

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       allisonaaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       while i come very late to this discussion, i'll throw in my 2 cents anyway. many years ago in a beginning class on writing research papers, i chose a topic that almost killed me--analyzing the poetry of n. scott momaday. the instructor cut me a lot of slack early on as she thought i was nuts to try it and momaday ain't that hard, either, compared to others like cummings or dickinson. i just kept reading and reading--knowing i was seeing something but not able to indentify what it was. it finally dawned on me that the problem was that i didn't know anything about poetry; not the real stuff and certainly nothing that would help me separate and understand the multiple voices that momaday's work speaks in--very formal dead-white-guys, kiowa indian, and a really distinct melding of the two. i was fortunate enough to find what i needed in time to write a pretty decent paper. my instructor was astounded, "i never thought you'd make it." the real point being that art, in any form, can and should be way more interesting than just "what you like." art, in any form, has rules and they're there in order to facilitate the artist's attempt to communicate. that doesn't mean you have to play by them, but breaking them is much more fun when you know what they are. same for a reader, listener, viewer. understanding whatever rules an artist is working within or outside of takes appreciation to an even more satisfying level, for me, anyway.

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    Pcunixposted 13 years ago

    Yeah, but a lot of it does "suck".  Like any form of art, a lot of it really is very poor.
    
    But so what?  The poet or artist gets something out of it.  I draw very bad cartoons as illustrations for my hubs - I love drawing them!  So somebody writes bad poetry - I dont have to read it.  Maybe the bad poets friends enjoy it - my wife likes my cartoons.  Even some of my readers like them, but by all objective or subjective standards, they "suck".
    
    Some poetry, like some art, will rip emotions out of you even if all the critics in the world would sneer at it.  It talks to YOU.  Is it still "bad" then?  Are my cartoons "bad" if a half dozen people like them?
    
    Do I or any poet here need millions of fans or is even just one enough?

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       Shadesbreathposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       If that was directed at my little poem, I think you may have missed the joke.  I agree with you.

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          Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          No, it wasn't directed at you :-)
          
          
          And yes, I got your satire.

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    ralwusposted 13 years ago

    i use SOC in sum of myne, all free vurse. i mayke mie owen rewels

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       couturepopcafeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       But that's your style.  You developed it, you worked for it, you fought for it, you own it.

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    Ben Evansposted 13 years ago

    There are many good poets on HP. 
    
    Now, I tend to think there are a lot of places to write poetry.  I have written on poetry sites and they are extremely critical.
    
    The nice thing here is people can write and feel like they are creating something.  With time people will become better writers.
    
    Yes there are some people who are both bad spellers (I am a bad speller.  Thank goodness for spell checking) and make syntax and grammatical errors.
    
    I would like to think that we are a community that will encourage people and let them write.  It is the only way people can learn.  I do think it would be nice if there were category for critical review.  Then if a person submits in that category then the should expect criticism. 
    
    Some people just want to write and to share.  I think that is all right also.  I would hope that we would not become like some of the poetry sites.  If anyone else has written on these sites, they can see see how critical and very chastising they are. 
    
    I personally enjoy just reading and trying to see through the author's eyes.  I will personally still submit some poetry to other sites and try to perfect my art but on the same token I have a long way to go and I will let people just write and have fun here.

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    DzyMsLizzyposted 13 years ago

    In the end, as several others have already stated, it is all about the individual reader's opinion.  We all have opinions, and we have all surely heard the rather crass analogy of how common they are, and therefore, what they are worth.
    
    Critiquing poetry, in my own opinion, makes about as much sense as those who consider themselves movie critics.  They are, for the most part, snobs who value only their own opinions.  In point of fact, I tend to find that the lower the critics' opinion of  a movie, the better I like it; conversely, if the critics have raved about a movie, I will most likely think it 'sucks.'
    
    There are many forms of poetry, including limericks and "doggerel," both of which are usually silly, nonsense verse.  Those genres are not intended to be deep or moving, but comical.  If you don't believe me, then do a Google search for  Ogden Nash. He was a master of doggerel; then go do the same for limericks.
    
    I have sometimes been accused of being a "grammar and spelling snob," but in my poems, I often break these rules on purpose for the effect.  It is part of the craft. 
    
    Hub Pages is, for the most part, a very supportive community of writers of many stripes.  There is no need to be snarky or judgemental.  Just like a TV set:  you have an 'off' button.  On the computer, it's called a mouse.  Just click away from anything you abhor.
    
    Constructive criticism is usually appreciated.  However, pompous parading of personal perspectives is pathetic.
    
    Lastly, if you are looking for 'perfection,' I have news for you:  you are on the wrong planet!
    
    ~(^^)~

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    Richieb799posted 13 years ago

    I know my poems are probably not that professional but I have a passion for writing them.. I try and organise them with photos and I place sub titles to help with Keywording because I want them to be found over the search engines..sometimes these sub headings confuse readers because they think the one whole poem is split up into small ones

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18. 67

    Pearldiverposted 13 years ago

    Why don't you take Actual Responsibility for your complete LACK OF ABILITY IN COMMUNICATING THIS In your own words Pratonix?
    
    All very well opening a thread with completely jerkish statements and then keeping your head down for two days waiting for someone to give you a backdoor exit mate!
    
    That isn't What You Meant at all...
    It is just the closest thing that you can find in the thread that gives you the opportunity to duck out the back door intact...
    And In a manner that your insult also remains intact!
    What a joke!  
    Hiding in the cupboard Huh?
    
    Well I think the poets here have a pretty good idea where you stand in regards to your Original Post and your slippery exit from the thread

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       Freya Cesareposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       )  )  )

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          Freya Cesareposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Ah, please somebody, teach me how to add icon and pic in this forum? I soooo far behind you all in understanding this!

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             Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             Try clicking on Formatting Tips while crafting your reply.

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                Freya Cesareposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                ah! Thank you! I am so silly can't find that myself.

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       alternate poetposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Did I miss something here ????   I thought the OP asked a slightly insensitive question about the poetry on hub pages BUT if he came from a poetry site then he will be used to his poetry being beaten to death by some self appointed poetic judge jury and executioner with their own oligarchical book of rules.  To come on here and find the happy accepting anything goes atmosphere for poetry that we have would come as a bit of a shock in contrast.
       
       Or did he bite you or something that I didn't see

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          Mishaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          LOL The OP stroke me as quite condescending, too. And I even am not a poet at all. I guess Pearldiver was a bit more elaborate in expressing himself.

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       McHamletposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       I don't get it Pearldriver. What did he say in the OP that was jerkish or so offensive?  Who did he insult? I just went through it point by point and I can find nothing offensive in the OP. I'm not on anyone's side but I've taught literature myself including poetry and jobs like mine wouldn't exist if you couldn't distinguish between good and bad poetry. Good poetry has depth which is why you can study it. There is something there to study. And as I said above, if you can't say some poetry is good and some bad then why get involved in it at all. Some poetry on hubpages is bad, some is good. So what?
       
       To illustrate the point:
       
       Will this be considered a
       poem if I post it in the
       poetry section of this site?
       even though I can say
       having written it now
       that it does not deserve to be
       called one
       Does that make me
       an elitist snob or just
       someone who is stating what
       should be obvious to anyone
       So let's drop the misguided PC
       This is not a poem or
       if it is it is simply
       a very bad one.
       It has very little depth or style
       and does not say anything that
       could not be said in prose
       
       I'm all for people trying to write poetry no matter what their initial level of ability but if they are to improve they will need constructive criticism not just pats on the back. I'm against insulting both people who write bad poetry and people who criticise bad poetry or point out that some poetry is bad. In other words let's not get petty and angry when someone puts their two cents in about what poetry should be. They have just as much right to do that without attracting rancour as any of the members on this site do in experimenting with poetry in whatever way they see fit. Same standard for all, please.

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          Website Examinerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Seems there may be some carry-over from discussions the OP and Pearldiver have been having on the religion forum:
          
          http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/48943

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             Pratonixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             'Discussion' is the wrong word. I made a post there, as a Christian, and I was attacked for it.

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             McHamletposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             I read that thread and maybe that's where some of this is coming from. I also read some of Pratonix's poems and he can write poetry, as can Pearldiver from what I've read. I could find points on which to criticize both but I don't feel that  there's enough to criticize to bother, and I'm not convinced that either would take any notice anyway. Some other poetry I've read here on the other hand is so bad I think I better remain silent. Here again I risk unpopularity by telling the truth, but so be it. Wasn't it that wonderful poet Keats who said "Beauty is truth and truth beauty" (Of course that may very well have been nonsense but I digress). The point is that some poetry on hubpages is woefully poor and still people write positive things about it. Such is life and who cares? The good news in any case is that such judgments are relative; without there being poetry that is complete rubbish you cannot have poetry that is sublimely wonderful. The one defines the other. That doesn't mean we should rudely point to bad poetry in comments on particular hubs. As I said silence is better, those who are writing bad poetry may very well improve if given encouragement, and unnecessarily lose confidence if criticized too harshly. So let's support each other but let's not lie to each other or attack each other to protect the frankly destructive idea that judging poetry is simply subjective and therefore meaningless. The end of that route is the end of art itself.

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          must65gtposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          so true. I get disgusted with the people who attack others on Hubpages, that's not what this sight is about. I think the old saying, "If you cant say something nice....." might fit. Criticism is expected as long as it's constructive. That's how we improve as writers. Bashing seems self gratifying and narcissistic, and I don;t see good reasoning behind it.

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    alorelleposted 13 years ago

    I do not agree. I write my poetry free form because it is an expression of my emotions and my thoughts. It is true that writing structured poetry is a very systematic skill that some people excel at, but that is not to say that everyone should write structured poetry.

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    Jeff Berndtposted 13 years ago

    Meh. I write poetry sometimes. I do it in private and wash my hands afterward.
    
    The thing is, with poetry, like any writing (or any art for that matter) either you like it, or you don't like it. Some has more broad appeal, some appeals to a smaller segment of the population.
    
    I'm not a big fan of, say, Jackson Pollack. I get the concepts, but I just prefer more representational art.
    
    I like W.B. Yeats as a poet more than I like, say, t.s. eliot. But Yeats's longer lyric poems tend to put me to sleep. It's the briefer ones I love.
    
    If you don't like a poem, fine. Don't like it. But unless you know why you don't like it, and are able to explain clearly why you don't like it, your opinion is of no help to anyone.
    
    If you can explain why you dislike a given poem, you might be able to be of some help to the writer, especially if you can make good suggestions for ways to make the message more powerful or something. If you can't, but insist on saying "It sucks," then not only are you an embittered jerk, you're also a failure as a critic.

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    notquitecorsoposted 13 years ago

    i will simply say that when you try to box in something as expansive and far-reaching as poetry, i think it is hard to argue that this form is better than that or some similar point...i believe a wide a range of poetic styles and poems reach a wide variety of people...poetry is about art, life, beauty, anything really and should be read with that in mind.

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    LunesisMidnightposted 13 years ago

    I must disagree with you. Yes poems can be well crafted but random scribbles rally puts your thoughts into your writing not just playful words in the right spot. Sure spelling mistakes and whatnot may be a bit discouraging but when you make something well crafted then where is the fun in anything you write hm. There's a thought for ya'll to ponder.

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       alternate poetposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Most people agree with this in principle - the issue is whether what you scribble down is poetry. Kids write beautiful stuff that is mis-spelled and has something of poetry in it as it has unorganised thoughts written to make a definate point - that is just beyond the grasp of the writer.  Most parents have had 'letters' from their small kids that ramble on - but they are saying 'I love you' - my daughter wrote me a kind of Haiku not long after she learned to write but had not yet broken into sentences - I had really told her off and sent her to bed early as punishment, maybe the only time ever as you was a near perfect child (of course), she left me a note in the morning -
       
       Dear Daddy
       I hate you
       Love Sammy
       
       Now you can argue that this is a kind of Haiku or other short poem that carries deeper meaning than the suface words - but it is not because it is not art it is expression.  But if I had deliberately written this to be a poem it would be a poem.
       
       To make anything poetry does not elevate scribbles and emotional outpourings and so on to poetry - it attempts to drag poetry down as an art form.

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    poetman65posted 13 years ago

    wow is all I can say for now

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    lil_oneposted 13 years ago

    Poetry is a way to express your emotions,writing down the way you feel,and what you are experiencing in life at that moment in time....life my friend is full of mixed emotions and the scribbles you refer to are may never make sence to you....they do not need to for they are not about you,or indeed for you.
    
    Not all artists paint the same pictures,nor musicians write the same song..............if they did the world would be a rather boring place to live,
    
    You would do well to remember the well know phrase'what goes around comes around'
    
    Always treat other people the way you expect to be treated in life,which i presume includes the freedom to express who you are without being judged?

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    lifelivedposted 13 years ago

    Pretty interesting my notion on poetry is it's the expression of your heart combine with raw emotion that you feel at that time is right or wrong your heart just feels certain ways.

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    haileysmom_09posted 13 years ago

    I'm new on here, so I don't know how much my opinion might matter to you. I have been writing poetry for 14 years. I have been published a few times. I think it is particularly interesting that you say poetry shouldn't be "gushing" with emotion. From my personal experience, that is exactly what it is. Poetry is an artistic expression of feeling and emotions. I have written well over 100 poems and I have never followed any guidelines or rules. I simply write what I am feeling and therefore my poetry "gushes" with emotion. I don't feel that there are any set rules for writing poetry. I think as long as you write from your heart, it doesn't matter if you have a few grammar errors. After all, isn't that what they invented spell check for?

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       couturepopcafeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       I'm pretty sure you meant spelling and not grammer.  Spelling counts, grammer doesn't otherwise there might not be any poetry at all!  Changing the rules of grammer is part of what poetic license is all about.  Some poetry does stem from emotion or heart but it still needs to make sense to someone - anyone.  There is a fine subjective line here.  Gushing emotion in poetry is no better than gushing emotion is reality.  It's uncontrolled.  Any form of writing needs to be controlled - if only to the point of honing it so it expresses exactly what you want it to.

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    amorea13posted 13 years ago

    Hi Pratonix - read your post reference poetry needing 'depth' and being 'compact'. I certainly agree with the 'compact' aspect as prose CAN express emotions powerfully but the very art (and science too) of writing poetry is that one strips away all the words which don't directly contribute to that expression of emotion so that the emotion reveals itself as though it had jumped straight out of the heart and onto the page. That's tough for prose to do.
    
    I agree with Leeberttea too in saying that poetry is best written FIRST for the writer as, at its very best, it is a personal expression of that emotion. If you're doing it first for recognition and applause well, the emotions can become diluted by trying to please - I think anyway. Poetry is personal but I do admit that it's great when others like what you write!!
    
    I think some of the greatest ever poems have been written by Shakespeare in his sonnets - wow! what art and science is literally crafted into them. They are packed with emotion but that emotion is pressed into the heart and mind of the reader via immense skill in the use of 'light' (imagery), movement (rhythm) and 'sound' (rhyme). Well, just my opinion.

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    couturepopcafeposted 13 years ago

    What amazes me is the way people make up definitions of things to suit their own idea of what something should be.  Just my opinion - everybody gets one - but I agree with Pratonix.  If you want your writing to fit the parameters of the already defined forms of poetry, then write it that way.  Granted it takes a bit more work but not as much as it used to.  We have access to a world of information and anyone can research the guidelines for formal poetry.
    
    If you want to write something else, call it something else.  Fight for it.  The originators of what is commonly called free verse were shunned until they were accepted.  The art world is full of critics but no statue was ever erected for a critic. 
    
    The question of "what is art" is a subjective one but putting a blank white canvas in the Museum of Modern Art is a shameless sham.  A mockery of those who work at skill and craft.  Defying for the sake of defying is arrogant at best. 
    
    If you think the NFL is going to hire you just because you say  it should be done your way and they should let you in, think again.
    
    That doesn't mean there is no room or tolerance for new ideas and forms of writing.  But, I'm sorry, I just get p.o.'d when those who really don't want to do the work or put the time in (natural genius excluded) think they have arrived because they threw a few random emotions together.
    
    Yes, it's just what Marx wanted.  Let's all be equal.  Let's allow the have nots (have not done anything to deserve accolades) to share what the haves have worked for.
    
    Of course the final acceptance into the world of writing comes from the attention the work receives from the viewing public.  Reading trite-ness will not help you grow - in any direction.  Reach higher than what you already know and are capable of.  If you want to learn to play football, you're not going to come to me for advice, you're likely going to go to someone who has the skill and experience of the game.
    
    Just because someone is smarter or more experienced than you in a specific field doesn't mean they are condescending.  Everyone is so quick to take offense.  Quit texting and read a real book.  Maybe even the dictionary.  I usually don't get this mean but you people are really starting to p--- me off.

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       ralwusposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Oh! I think I'm in love. What a woman!

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          couturepopcafeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Thanks, man.

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    Never_Forgetposted 13 years ago

    I don't understand why so many people are jumping on the OP for making this thread? Am I missing something?
    
    Poetry shouldn't have grammatical errors. It's as simple as that. I don't see why that's such a ridiculous concept. Poetry revolves heavily around words and the talent to write. If there are spelling and grammatical mistakes in a poem then yes it does take away the overall effect of it. I don't see how anyone can dispute that or get angry about it.
    
    Why are there so many pretentious a-holes on this forum?

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       couturepopcafeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       It's frustrating, isn't it?  It's like everybody thinks they can make up rules to a game they haven't invented.  Discourse and consideration have been taken over by insult and laziness.

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    ralwusposted 13 years ago

    LOL mebbe so. I got to git. Have a good one all.

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    lambservantposted 13 years ago

    I think I know what you're saying Pratonix, I am a novice at poetry. I don't know if it is good or not. But I love writing poems to create a picture. I look at other poetry and enjoy different styles. But I can only do my style. However, I do seek to grow in the art of poetry. I cannot paint, so I like to paint words and images and feelings.
    
    I think people are taking offense because they may think that you are judging the poetry hubs, or that you are assigning yourself as a poetry critic. I have interacted with you enough on hubs to think that is probably not the case. I think you see poetry, as you say, as an art, and let's face it there is good art and bad art, good poetry and bad poetry. But to me, what is bad to me, might be very good to another. Some people look at my poetry and probably say, "oh, she hasn't got a clue." Yet I have heard from others that one of my poems really spoke to them. So I think like beauty, good poetry is in the eye of the beholder. Thanks for this topic Mr. Pratonix. I believe you are a fine fellow.

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    attemptedhumourposted 13 years ago

    Some people write beautiful poetry using poor English skills, whilst others write poor poetry with impeccable English skills. It's a matter of opinion which style is preferable and readers will vote with their fingers. If one can write beautiful poetry with impeccable English then Hubpages could be the wrong medium. If we as readers follow the, 'if you can't say anything nice, say nothing' approach, is it in the best interests of the writer? I'm not sure, so perhaps we should err on the side of caution and let our clicks and hub scores be the judge. Rod Stewart has as many fans as detractors but if he's not your cup of tea then don't buy his music. Cheers

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    leni sandsposted 13 years ago

    Just a thought but don't poems start off as random scribbles?

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       couturepopcafeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Sometimes.  But a painting starts off as a slash or dot of paint.  That doesn't make it a painting.  (Well, unless you're looking at the white canvas in the M.O.M.A., NYC.)  One can get lucky and the first words down are perfect but most of the time, poems and writings need to be honed.

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    Justsilvieposted 13 years ago

    To me poetry is to write what you feel and feel what you write.
    
    And most people who write it, do it for  themselves,  but are happy when someone enjoys their words or can relate. So critics be damned!

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    kookoo88posted 13 years ago

    How about this:  GOOD poems should be well crafted, not random scribbles.
    
    As with all art forms, there's good or bad.  Personally, I write poetry to get thoughts on paper or to tell my wife how much I love her.   It's not really good poetry and I have other interests, so I don't feel like going back through and crafting it properly.
    
    Every once in a while (about every decade) I go back and look at what I write.  I muse at how bad it is, but I remember what things I was thinking at the time and it makes me smile.
    
    If you just want to write a poem, go for it.  It doesn't have to be good.  If you want others to read it and like it, then you might want to submit something that's well crafted.

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    TheGlassSpiderposted 13 years ago

    Poetry = Heart + Craft. <3

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    kennynextposted 13 years ago

    As long as you are happy with what you write, that is what counts. I have seen some people write 3 words and say that is poetry. Poetry matters most to the one who writes it or to the one it is written for. Have a great weekend everybody.

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