Jesus did not die on Cross; from Bible

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50
paarsurreyposted 15 years ago
Hi friends
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908 has given many proofs from the Bible; that Jesus did not die on the Cross. One such proof is as follows:

Let it be noted that though Christians believe that Jesus (peace be on him) after his arrest through the betrayal by Judas Iscariot, and crucifixion -- and resurrection -- went to heaven, yet, from the Holy Bible, it appears that this belief of theirs is altogether wrong. Matthew (chapter 12, verse 40) says that just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the fish, so the Son of Man shall be three days and three nights in the bowels of the earth.

Now it is clear that Jonah did not die in the belly of the fish; the utmost that happened was that he was in a swoon or a fit of fainting. The holy books of God bear witness that Jonah, by the grace of God, remained alive in the belly of the fish, and came out alive; and his people ultimately accepted him. If then Jesus (on whom be peace) had died in the belly of the 'fish', what resemblance could there be between a dead man and the one who was alive, and how could a living one be compared with one dead?

The truth rather is, that as Jesus was a true prophet and as he knew that God, whose beloved he was, would save him from an accursed death, he made a prophecy in the form of a parable, revealed to him by God, in which he hinted that he would not die on the Cross, nor would he give up the ghost on the accursed wood; on the contrary, like the prophet Jonah, he would only pass through a state of swoon. In the parable he had also hinted that he would come out of the bowels of the earth and would then join the people and, like Jonah, would be honoured by them.

So this prophecy too was fulfilled; for Jesus, coming out of the bowels of the earth, went to his tribes who lived in the eastern countries, Kashmir and Tibet, etc. viz. the ten tribes of the Israelites who 721 years before Jesus, had been taken prisoner from Samaria by Shalmaneser, King of Assur, and had been taken away by him. Ultimately, these tribes came to India and settled in various parts of that country. Jesus at all events must have made this journey; for the divine object underlying his advent was that he should meet the lost Jews who had settled in different parts of India; the reason being that these in fact were the lost sheep of Israel who had given up even their ancestral faith in these countries, and most of whom had adopted Buddhism, relapsing, gradually into idolatry.

Dr. Bernier, on the authority of a number of learned people, states in his Travels that the Kashmiris in reality are Jews who in the time of the dispersal in the days of the King of Assur had migrated to this country.

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/je … a/ch1.html

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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1. 77
  aguasilverposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I hear Satan whispering....
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  joecsekoposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I hear crazy talk! Satan whispering?
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  vector7posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  He got you fooled too huh?
  
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  Cedar Cove Farmposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed.
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  kimberlyslyricsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
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  Pandoras Boxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  2 nights and a day do not equal 3 days and 3 nights.
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  Jeramiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  There are enough of these "Obvious" "Blantant" contradictions written in the canon that I would have to question the motives as to why they were included in the first place????
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  paarsurreyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend Jerami
  
  The motive of Paul, Church and the scribes was to make a new religion by carving a god out of Jesus; which he never was. Jesus himself said that he was Son of Adam.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Jeramiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I have only said that I believe that Jesus was the Messiah as fortold would fulfill those prophesy of the Old testament.
  I believe that he fulfilled those prophesy.
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  Bruce_Leiterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  He said that he was the son of man, referring to the Prophet Daniel's book (chapter 7), where God sits as the Judge of the human race. Then, "one like a son of man" joined him on the throne. Who is that person? He rules with God, and the nations of the world worship him. When someone worships angels and prophets, they correct their worship, which is to be given only to God. However, all nations worship the son of man in Daniel 7, and Jesus accepted people's worship too. Therefore, he claimed to be and acted as God, one with the first Person and the third Person, the Holy Spirit. That's what I believe the Bible says; you can believe what you want.
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  paarsurreyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend Pandoras Box
  
  That is a peroid for which the Christians should account for and be asked for ; Quran does not mention any period of days and does not mention it as essence of the event.It is most important for the Christians as they make Jesus-god out of it.Jesus could never claim any divinity as he never died on the Cross.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Bruce_Leiterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't understand, paarsurrey. Jesus claimed over and over again in the Gospel of Prophet John that he is also God along with the first Person of God. His many I AM statements obviously refer to God's name revealed to Prophet Moses, I AM WHO I AM, as God spoke to him from the burning bush. Jesus claimed, "Before Abraham was, I am," another outragious statement that enraged the Jews.
  
  Yet, that God with three Persons, including the Holy Spirit. is also one God, not three. Either Jesus was telling the truth or he was mentally ill. There are not too many other choices. However, he proved his deity with amazing miracles, many fulfilled prophecies, and his actual death because of his human nature and his actual resurrection because of his divine nature, all of which were witnessed by many people. Those are my beliefs based on the Bible. You can believe what you want to.
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  Bruce_Leiterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Pandora's Box and Jerami, In the Jewish way of measuring time, a day was counted as any part of a day and was referred to as a day and a night. So it's not a contradiction at all, just a different way of thinking.
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  True Truthseekerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hypocritical Pharisees and Saducees asked for a sign, the sign of Jonah was given them. Jesus Christ himself says that He was to die. Prophecies show this, at Daniel showing that Messiah will be cut off, and at Isaiah 53. The prophecy at Genesis 3:15, was fulfilled when the Christ was impaled [bruised in the heel].
  Baptism has been described as being dead as to sin, Christ said let the dead bury their dead. You are taking things out of context. Jonah was as good as dead, when he was inside the fish, ONLY Yahweh/ JEHOVAH could save/ 'resurrect' him. Likewise ONLY Yahweh/ JEHOVAH could resurrect the Christ from the grave/ hell. Acts 5:30, 1 Peter 1:3.
  Contradictions in Scripture are from man or demon.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friends
  
  Bible is neither authored by the Creator-God Allah YHWH; nor even by his Messenger, Jesus. It is written by anonymous persons and corrupted by clever Paul and the church to suit their purpose; so it has got contradictions.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  petsnakesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Paarsurrey, when you have to stand before God Almighty and He asks you why you didn't believe what He told the world about Jesus Christ through the prophets, what will your answer be?
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend petsnakes
  
  Paul was only a self-made and false Prophet; all other truthful Prophets like Jesus and Moses I do believe in .
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Bruce_Leiterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Paarsurrey, may you receive God's peace. How can Paul be a self-made Prophet? Read the Book of Acts. He persecuted Jesus and Christians until the risen Jesus appeared to him from God's glory. Jesus made him into a preacher of Jesus and of God's grace (his free acceptance) for believers because of Jesus' perfect life, death as their substitute satisfying God's justice, and resurrection for believers' new birth. Jesus as the risen God-man turned Paul's life completely around from a relationship with rules and regulations to a personal relationship with the 3-in-1 God. His life has all of the earmarks of a true Prophet of God, who testified to his conversion before kings who could have killed him.
  
  As the physician Luke says at the beginning of the Gospel of Luke and the Book of Acts, he investigated all that he wrote. In fact, he accompanied Paul on part of one of his missionary journeys.
  
  What is it about Paul's teachings that you object to, friend Ahmadi? As always, you can believe what you want, but these truths from the Bible are the basis for my beliefs.
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  Disappearingheadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The quran was not authored by God, but is the writings of one man who claimed to be a prophet and who claimed an angel spoke to him. Mmmm the Mormans tried this trick too and we arn't fooled by that one either
  
  In fact why don't I claim to have an angel come and dictate some writings to me too. No hold on, that would mean I was lying.
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  Amie Warrenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  "In fact why don't I claim to have an angel come and dictate some writings to me too. No hold on, that would mean I was lying.'
  
  L. Ron Hubbard already did that, didn't he?
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  brotheryochananposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So the old testament was never inspired of yahweh either huh. I believe the old testament is masoretic text, thus authentic. If the old testament was never inspired of god during a time when the holy spirit of god was only 'leant' to the jewish people, how can the new testament not be inspired text when dispensed during a time when god "will pour out his spirit upon all flesh".
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  Bruce_Leiterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi, brother! I believe that Old Testament believers had the Holy Spirit or they wouldn't have had true faith as described in Hebrews 11. I believe that the references to the Holy Spirit coming on certain people is for spritual gifts for certain tasks, like King Saul's temporary gift of prophecy. All Scripture was inspired by God, according to 2 Timothy 3:16,17.
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  Joseph Tposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Paarsurrey, you should know the Bible has written by many disciples of Jesus under the guidance of Holy Spirit who also is God, third person, you should know only one God, the Holy Trinity, but 3 persons: God the Almighty Father the Creator, God The Son Jesus who is The Savior, and God The Holy Spirit Who is guiding us and protecting us on the earth right now. I only try to explain to you my understanding and my knowledge about God the best as I can....But I think and believe If you truly want to understand about God, you need to humble yourself, pray and surrender yourself totally to God... in that way you can ask God give you the understanding about Him...Remember before God you and me only are sinners and so tiny dusts... God is so powerful, sacred, huge to worship....
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I kwow that Jesus was son of Mary and Mary never married any god or any Trinity of three person. Did she?
  
  Was it a legal marriage or an illegal one; that christians believe ?
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  ellahall2011posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Mary got pregnant through the power of God's Holy Words.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The Holy Ghost is not a god; he is just a creation of the Creator-God Allah YHWH.Angel Gabriel is the holy ghost.
  
  None of the sinful disciples who wrote gospels of the NT was ispired; they all ran away from the scene of the Cross; leaving Jesus alone in agony on it. Were they inspired to run away?
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  manlypoetrymanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  paarsurrey: Do you know what whacky-tobaccy is...and have you been smoking it before starting this thread?
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't smoke and I don't know really as to what a whacky-tobaccy is. If it is a useful thing and is pro-life, do tell us about it.
  
  Thanks for your input though.
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  manlypoetrymanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh Wow, Man..."Peace Out!"
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  Flightkeeperposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Manly, you have to realize the paar is is part of an outcast muslim sect. This is his way of trying to get more people to notice and join his religion. He has no schooling in Christianity just as we have no schooling in his. It's not a surprise that none of it makes sense to him or to other non-Christians. You shouldn't let it bother you.
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  manlypoetrymanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Your right...but then I end up biting my lip with some of this stuff...until it gets to the point that I got'ta say something. Anything said to counter is better then some of this ongoing and growing pile of garbage.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You are welcome to speak; even if you differ with me; but speak with good arguments.
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  manlypoetrymanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'll speak with good arguments...when you speak with good points. How'z a-bout that?
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus was also an outcast Jew. Didn't he?
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  lord danielposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  hakakaka som1 said u have been smoking to bacci hi man i am lord daniel known as the holy ghost u need to ask for jesus to save u
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  Cedar Cove Farmposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Amen!
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  topgunjagerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm still thinking of how this information will benefit me any anyway whatsoever
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  watchyaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It will save you from being nailed.
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  topgunjagerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  WOW!!! that makes so much sense=)
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  watchyaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Religion always comes in handy !
  
  If you know how to handle it.
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  Bruce_Leiterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi, topgunjager. The Bible says that if you believe in Jesus Christ as the way to God the Father, you have eternal life. If Jesus isn't God, he couldn't give you life that lasts forever, as he claimed he could. Also, Jesus' life, death, and resurrection supply believers with power for a new life following Jesus' teachings and to make progress in that new life through the Holy Spirit. That's how Jesus' life, death, and resurrection benefit true believers who trust in that 3-in-1 God, who accepts all of them unconditionally and freely because of Jesus, not because of human effort. That's what I believe ahd have experienced, all to God's credit.
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  kimberlyslyricsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm sorry, pardon, I apologize but I couldn't hear you
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend kimberlyslyrics
  
  It is OK; when you wake up; then you can hear from me.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  mjane24posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  for me..Yes Jesus died on the cross,if Jesus did not die why He said john1:29 he taketh the sins of the world,hebrews9:22 without shedding of blood thers is no remission of sins...
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend mjane24
  
  We don't have anything written by Jesus himself or dictated by him to someone himself or written by someone authorized by Jesus himself. We don't have anything from Jesus in his own words in the original language he spoke except one sentence which is in Hebrew/Aramaic; hence we cannot say what John wrote that it was ever said by Jesus. The Gospels were anonymous books which were named after the Gospel writers only for identification; nobody knows who wrote them and why?
  
  To conceal this fact; the Church spread the word that these were written by inspired people which has no truth in it; as those people who deserted Jesus when he most needed them; they should not be considered even believers in Jesus what had inspiration to do with them.
  
  Jesus was an innocent person like all the Messengers Prophets of the Creator-God Allah YHWH are; he had no authority to lift the sins of others on his shoulders. This is utterly wrong. Say a person killed somebody; if Jesus lifted his sin of killing; what benefit it gives to the society if that person starts killing others thinking his sin has been lifted by Jesus. It makes no sense.
  
  Sorry, I don't agree with you.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  While on the other hand, Islam would simply have you put to death for far less than killing someone. All you have to do is draw a cartoon and off comes your head.
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  MeGunnerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  (Q) I wonder why that confused muslim didn't reply to this
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  brotheryochananposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  the president of the united states never writes anything either, not even his speeches. He just signs the papers. Why can u not recognize that the disciples of jesus have just as much authenticity to write about what they wrote than any president.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend brotheryochanan
  
  The gospel writers were not believers of Jesus; they deserted him and ran away; they were unfaithful, they could not write for Jesus.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Bruce_Leiterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Ah, Ahmadi, my friend. You might check how Jesus restored the disciples after his resurrection; such treatment is his grace (free, undeserved acceptance), which no other religion teaches about their Gods, because it's not usual human thinking. The God of grace freely accepts unworthy believers in him, the Creator-Rescuer, 3-in-1 God, and transforms them throughout their lifes. That's how the Bible presents Christian believers' amazing God, in whom I believe.
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  Bruce_Leiterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Friend Ahmadi, how could the early church make up a virgin-born Messiah who was fully God and fully human coming from heaven to join the human race, a God-man who did amazing miracles and lived a perfect life so that God will accept freely all believers, satisfy God's justice by dying in believers' place, rise triumphantly from the grave to give believers new life, re-enter heaven to rule the universe with the first Person, and send the third Person of God, the Holy Spirit, to transform believers' lives to believe in and trust the mysterious 3-in-1 God for his free gift of life forever. Who could have ever come up with that sequence of events? It had to happen that way because no one could have dreamed or thought it up. That's what I believe; you can believe as you wish. I think that we can still be friends even though we may believe differently. That's the kind of grace (free acceptance) that God shows his own.
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  tybell74posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I have to disagree wholeheartedly. First of all the referrance to Jonah was a symbolic accounting directed at Jesus' resurrection not his death. Jonah was in the belly of the whale for 3 days and 3 nights and at his escape from the whale he was symbolically ressurected as a new person. The bible tells us the moment of Jesus' death as depicted in Matthew 27 verse 50. Jesus was upon the cross He cried out "it is finished" and he died. There are no contridictions anywhere in the word of God just misinterpretations of His scriptures. Jesus was indeed divine and he indeed died on the cross. I encourage you to read and study the bible before you decide to tell the world your opinions of his Word. To read it is to know it, to know it is to believe it, and to believe it is to recieve it.
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  Bruce_Leiterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Amen and amen, tybell!
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  Friendlywordposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  "I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim"
  
  I'm sorry you feel the need to say that.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friends
  
  It is just an expression of faith; does not harm anybody.
  
  Thanks
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Unlike your religion!
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  klarawieckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The holy books of God bear witness that Jonah, by the grace of God, remained alive in the belly of the fish, and came out alive;
  
  Wasn't that Mister Geppetto?
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  You're in good form Klara!
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  Shahid Bukhariposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Please correct a few Mis-concepts, mentioned in your Note above, based in the Rationalized version of The Word of God, In State of al' Quran.
  
  1. Your Interpretation's stated "Swooning" of ... Jesus, the Christ ... Peace be Upon him ... In, the Quran Stated, Is the "Doubt" that was Effected In, Ordination ... it was an Illusion ... Effecting the Romans, and Jews; the Persecutors of, Jesus, son of Blessed Mary ... The Promised Messiah. Peace be Upon him ... Not, Jesus, the Christ, himself.
  
  Thus, the Romans, and Jews, "thought" they were impaling ... or had Impaled, who they thought, was an Impostor ... on the Cross, for it appeared to be so to them ...
  
  Jesus, is doubtlessly, a Prophet of God ... The Promised Messiah, the Christ, Peace be Upon him ... So how can the Messiah, die ? ... he lives on In The Lords Presence, in the same body, and will be "Returned" in the Second coming ... Live among humans and then die, normally.
  
  Do you doubt, because, it seems Logically impossible ... that God Almighty, God Forbid ... is incapable, of doing all this ?
  
  Jesus, the Christ ... Peace be Upon him ... In the Islamic Concept, was not Resurrected from the dead, on the Third day ... nor will he be Reincarnated, later, in the body of some other Person ... But Is, the one, to Return, as a Sign from The Lord, heralding the End of Times.
  
  The Quranic Word, Is ... and
  
  I quote:
  
  "And for their [Jews and Roman's] saying, 'He [God] hath killed the [pretender] Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary; the Messenger of Allah ... and they had killed him not, nor did they cause, his death on the Cross, but he was Made to Appear so ... And those who differ therein, are in Doubt, about it, they only follow an Assumption... and they killed him not certainly." (Chapter 4, Verse, 157) ...
  
  Unquote.
  
  2. Thus, it is a Wrong, to address, Jesus, the Christ, Peace be Upon him, by any other name, Contrary to what The Lord calls him ... Essa [Jesus] son of Mary ... or, call someone else, by the name of The Ordained Messiah.
  
  3. Regarding the Theory ... That Jesus, Peace be Upon him, escaped, the Levantian Persecution, and sought refuge with his Tribe, settled in Kashmir, for the remainder of his life ... in India, and died, with his grave situated in Srinagar...
  
  This Theory, is only propounded in Rational justification, of the proposed proclaimings later on, by others, claiming being the Reincarnations of Christ. Peace be Upon Jesus, the son of Blessed Mary, and The Ordained Messiah.
  
  Such theories are based in a Logical Concept, being derived from either the metaphysical Vedantic Concept of Ava Gavan, or the Tibetan Lamic Traditions, dealing with Reincarnations.
  
  Because, there is no Concept, of the Buddhist or Vedantic type of "Reincarnations" in Islam ... as of one's re-birth in an inferior, or superior human form, or as a leper, or in the animal form etc. ...
  
  All humans, will only be Raised once, from the Dead ... on the Day of Resurrection ... and Judgment ... including, Christ ... the Messiah, Peace be Upon him, who will die, after fulfilling the Purpose of his Second Coming, Peace be Upon Jesus, the Christ, son of Blessed Mary.
  
  5. I don't know if it is due an oversight, or you forgot ... or you don't know, There were Twelve Tribes of the bani Israel, meaning, Jews ... not ten.
  
  And by the way, some Pathans also claim to be, descendents of the lost Tribe ... as hundreds of others around the world. do for banking reasons ... So I cannot say if it was Berniers' doings, or someone else's ... Politicking ... Because, I do not read, or research metaphysical Nonsense.
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Lady_Eposted 15 years ago
Awaiting Part 2 of this interesting History lesson!

Peace...
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  Brenda Durhamposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Don't hold your breath.
  It's not even true.
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  Hokeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Just as true as the bible.
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  kimberlyslyricsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
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SirDentposted 15 years ago
This one might be funnier than the Bowman thread on the Hangout forum.

As Jonah was in the belly of the wahle for three days. so will the Son of man be three days in the belly of the earth. (paraphrased)

Usually when a man or woman is buried, they are dead. There have been rare cases where people were buried alive, usually because they did something bad to someone else.

Face it, you do not know what you are talking about when you post such threads as this one.
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  paarsurreyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend SirDent
  
  First of all Jesus was not buried in a grave; he was just laid in a tomb without doing all the usual rituals for a dead. Jesus was taken hurriedly to a tomb by his friends without all the rituals as they knew he was not dead. If he was dead ;why this hurry? They should have left him where he was; as he was to perform a miracle for the Jews; and Jews were there all around. Why being secretive while performing a miracle promised with the Jews? They were a party to the promise; why to show the miracle in their absense?
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Judah's Daughterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus was dead because they pierced his side and the blood separated from the water - proof of literal death. They were in a hurry to bury Him because of the Sabbath.
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  paarsurreyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friends Judah's Daughter
  
  Jesus' friends were in a hurry so that Jesus' injuries are treated immediately and he does not succumb to his wounds. Christians never care for Sabbath; the Romans also didn't have to care for the Sabbath; the Jews did care about the Sabbath; but they did not participate or arrange for the rituals. In fact the Official chose the day of Crucifixion on Friday; so that under the pretext of Sabbath; Jesus' body is handed over to the friends of Jesus as soon as possible and the Jews could not object to handing it over to them.
  
  Jesus did not die on Cross.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Judah's Daughterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus was a Jew; His friends were Jews. I certainly don't need to contend the truth with you, as you are not open to receiving it. If you want to make a statement in a forum and are not open to learning, this is mute. Allah is not a father, is he? Allah has no son, does he? 1 John 2:22 "Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son." Jesus Christ is the Son of God who died on the cross and rose from the dead, just as the Bible says. Why did He do this? To save all who will believe from the consequences of sin...even you.
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  Bruce_Leiterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  What do you say to Prophet John's eyewitness account that the Roman soldier stabbed him to make sure he was dead, and that water and blood came out, thus demonstrating that Jesus was truly dead? I invite you to respond to this specific eyewitness account in John 19:31-37.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend Bruce_Leiter
  
  According to Matthew, the first gospel, everyone of the disciples had deserted Jesus and fled away; so that makes John's witnessing a doubtful one; he was not an eye-witness of the even to crucifixion.
  
  John's witnessing won't stand in the modern day legal requirements of a legal system; it was a hearsay account. A religion cannot be based on such doubtul hearsay.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  vector7posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You do realize that everything wrote by muhammad is a hearsay account?
  
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Quran was revealed on Muhammad and as an auxiliary measure it he dictated it to the people who could write it down.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Noone wrote it down until after mohammed died. It was hearsay. Dont feel bad about it though, so was the bible.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Every verse of the Quran was committed to writing as soon as it was revealed and this writing was most tenaciously preserved.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I dont think many scholars will agree with you on that. I think you should research the earliest copy of the koran and see what it has been dated at and then count how many years after mohammeds death it is.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The verses of Quran were committed to writing also as soon as they were revealed; please make a research.
  
  You are confusing it with the "collection of Quran", perhaps.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thats not what my research tells me. That is what muslims tell me but that is not what my research into the earliest known copies of the koran tells me.
  
  I think someone has been fed porkies.
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  nikki1posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You are wrong again. You may want to read the bible again. Once he was pronounced dead from the cross. Women in the community I believe wrapped his body in clothes and placed him in a tomb/etc. Where in three days he rose from the died to be by his father.
  He did die on the cross. By a horrible dictator of the community. He got jealous of Jesus. And ordered to die on the cross where all to see. Ruthlessly, I may add. I for one believe in his cause.
  He even forgave the dictator/ etc for killing him.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend nikki1
  
  I don't mind if you read the Bible again and check that the Roman officials did not hand over the injured Jesus to women.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  nikki1posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  how lame.
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  luvpassionposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The dictator you refered too?
  
  Pontius Pilot washed his hands of the affair and left the decision to crucify Christ to the Jewish people...Barrabas or the Christ.
  
  His body was released to Joseph of Aramathia.
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  nikki1posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you for sharing, luvpassion..
  
  I found the website, however we can't add url links
  in here. Its a great passage.
  
  Heres some of it..
  
  MATTHEW 27:59-60 NKJ
  59 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,
  60 and laid it in his new tomb which he had hewn out of the rock; and he rolled a large stone against the door of the tomb, and departed.
  
  Both the Jews and the Romans believed Jesus was buried.
  
  MATTHEW 27:62-66 NKJ
  62 On the next day, which followed the Day of Preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees gathered together to Pilate,
  63 saying, "Sir, we remember, while He was still alive, how that deceiver said, `After three days I will rise.'
  64 "Therefore command that the tomb be made secure until the third day, lest His disciples come by night and steal Him away, and say to the people, `He has risen from the dead.' So the last deception will be worse than the first."
  65 Pilate said to them, "You have a guard; go your way, make it as secure as you know how."
  66 So they went and made the tomb secure, sealing the stone and setting the guard.
  
  They rolled a huge stone in front of the tomb where they had buried Jesus. Then officials sealed the tomb, and placed guards there, preventing anyone from stealing Jesus' body.
  
  Jesus Rose From Death
  MATTHEW 28:2-7 NKJ
  2 And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat on it.
  3 His countenance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow.
  4 And the guards shook for fear of him, and became like dead men.
  5 But the angel answered and said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified.
  6 "He is not here; for He is risen, as He said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.
  7 "And go quickly and tell His disciples that He is risen from the dead, and indeed He is going before you into Galilee; there you will see Him. Behold, I have told you."
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  tybell74posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The roman that pierced Jesus' side did it to relieve his suffering because he believed that Jesus' was who he said he was. There was jealousy or any malice in this act. He did it for the love he had for the messiah
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It was done to ensure his death and for no other reason. How is that not obvious.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend tybell74
  
  Weird kind of Christian love; in stead of kissing Jesus with love the constable pierced Jesus' heart with a spear!
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Bruce_Leiterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi, tybell. Where do you find that idea in the Bible?
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  Bruce_Leiterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi, tybell! I'm a little late replying :-), but where did you get the idea that the Roman soldier was a believer? There's no biblical evidence for that Idea. He stabbed Jesus because he was sent to take the body down from the cross because of the approaching special, Passover Sabbath and found Jesus dead already. To make sure that Jesus was truly dead, he stabbed him. Out came blood and water, clear medical evidence that Jesus was dead, in fact of a literally-broken heart. That biblical evidence is not contradicted.
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Onusonusposted 15 years ago
They were secrative because they were followers of a man whom the government had just crucified. Thus they were bordering outlaws, and would have been given the same punishment. They kept his body for the same reasons that people have kept and preserved the bodies of their past leaders. They did as much as they could to give him a proper burial, because they loved him.
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  paarsurreyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friends
  
  The Christians believe that Jesus was god; he had promised to show the sign of Jonah to Jews; so Jesus' friends neither needed to preserve body of Jesus as they did for their past leaders; nor to give him a proper burial as he was to resurrect from the dead as he had promised to the Jews; and as per the Christians' belief.
  
  So it suited them to leave him in the open for showing the sign; if they hurried to lay him in the tomb that was for his treatment and that they did believe that Jesus had not died on the cross. Their actions prove that they considered Jesus alive from the Cross.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Judah's Daughterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Right, and what of the Roman guards? The tomb was sealed and guarded to make sure the disciples didn't steal His body to fabricate a resurrection "story" and deify Jesus (Mat 27:62-66). That plan didn't work, for God's plan was fulfilled. Jesus was a true "prophet" or He was a lunatic. You believe Jesus was a holy prophet, so believe what He said in John 2:19 "Jesus answered them, 'Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.'" If you quote the Bible to attempt to use it against Jesus, that is consistent with Satan's use of the scriptures to "tempt Jesus". Any surprise?
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  Hokeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The guards left the tomb unattended.
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  Judah's Daughterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Prove it.
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  Hokeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Doesnt matter. Fairy tale anyway. Read the story of Horus. Thousands of years before Jesus. Virgin Birth. Healed the sick. Walked on water. Crucified. Resurrected in three days. At least they could have made up there own stories.
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  Judah's Daughterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  And the result? Exactly what pagan "gods" wanted ~ to keep people from believing the true gospel. I find it interesting that this forum is called "Jesus did not die on Cross; from BIBLE", but the Bible is rejected by the one who posted this...let's quote the Qur'an and all would be well, wouldn't it? - considering the Qur'an is the absolute antithesis of the Bible.
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  Daniel Carterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Wow. No harshness, unkindness, and judgment here...
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  Judah's Daughterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus and Paul were certainly not always "polite" when it came to false teachers. Jesus: "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies." (John 8:44) Paul: "You who are full of all deceit and fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease to make crooked the straight ways of the Lord?" (Acts 10:13) Children of God are filled with His Spirit and speak by Him appropriately. I rest my case.
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Have you not read the bible or quoran?
  
  They are almost identical in all the hate torture and threats.
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  Allan Bogleposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The story of Horus states nothing of the sort. It is obvious you are ignorant concerning the account of Horus.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  LOL You religionists are so funny. And - they allow you to teach? Dear me. Is this a religious university?
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earnestshubposted 15 years ago
The Jesus story is re-hashed from other much earlier beliefs. There have been many many Jesus stories. Jesus himself probably never existed!
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  Judah's Daughterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  There's more written in history about Jesus than anyone else, even you. Amazing!! If I had to say someone never existed, you would fit that criteria based on the story books "logic".
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I have written, you can read it here.
  JC never wrote a word!
  
  I have records showing I ran for the senate, children, grandchildren an address, I can be seen, spoken to and have a body that lives.
  
  This is the sort of "logic" that brings me to wonder how people have enough smarts to hold a job!
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  TMMasonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You haven't left near the impact on society andf the world at large as Jesus, Earnest.
  
  Get over yourself.
  
  All your writing, and all the knowledge of you, could easily be slung out as fairy tale.
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No. All of it is true and verifiable!
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  Bruce_Leiterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Earnestshub, why are you so angry at Christians? The God of the Bible cannot be rationalistically or intellectually understood, as he himself said there. After all, he's God and I'm not. We are his mere creatures. He revealed himself in the Bible as three Persons in one God. Nobody's ever been able to figure him out completely. The Bible reveals Jesus to be fully human and divine, one with the 1st Person of God and yet dying on the cross. (See my other responses on this hub.) Other religions may try to stand the test of reason, but the Christians' God is above human reason, which is corrupt, and wants us to believe in him as the one, only true God. Christians do not believe in three Gods but one revealed as three Persons. Since we humans are lost, Jesus came to find and rescue us by his perfect life, death, and resurrection.
  What you believe is up to you. However, which God we worship and serve is very important, since our worship and service of the wrong God will make all of the difference in the next life.
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  Loves To Readposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Praise GOD!!! You go girl. I'm with you all the way.
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No logic involved here. Are you going to ignore my argument or did jesus write something I missed?
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  tybell74posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  no Jesus' did not write anything to my knowledge. The disciples were told to acfcount for his life, And they did!!!!!
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Not everything, but nice try.
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  Hokeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly. Such as Horus, Mithra, Gigamesh...etc.
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karatekidjmtposted 15 years ago
He suffered a physical death, not spiritual. His spirit left his body as the Scripture declares. The Bible says that hell is located in the bowels of the earth. Therefore the Bible teaches that Jesus went into hell and in essence conquered it, and took away the power of sin. Ever since Jesus' death, sin and death no longer holds power over the genuinely born again. That is what the Bible teaches. You took one portion of Scripture and took it waaay out of context. At the same time, you showed no regard for the many many Scriptures that completely contradict your interpretation of that one parable.
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earnestshubposted 15 years ago
From the bible.

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

From the quoran.

Qur’an 3:56 “As for those disbelieving infidels, I will punish them with a terrible agony in this world and the next. They have no one to help or save them.”

Where is the difference?
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  Bruce_Leiterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Earnest, you take the Bible's verse out of context. The passages before and after that one (Zechariah 12:10-14 and 13:4-9) describe the sincere mourning of God's people because they "will look on me, the one they have pierced," an obvious prediction of Jesus' piercing by the Roman soldier and the disciple's and other believers' mourning because Jesus' death was necessary for God's forgiveness. The passage you quote describes in picture language God's cleansing of believers from "sin and impurity" (13:1) and his punishment of unbelievers because of their rebellion against their Creator, the God of the Bible (13:2b--"...I will remove both the prophets and the spirit of impurity from the land"). The same contrast between believers (again, their shepherd will be struck--13:7) and unbelievers is found in the following context, leading to chapter 14, which is a description of the final confrontation of God and evil at Jesus' coming at the end time. The whole passage teaches when Jesus (the Shepherd that unbelievers killed) comes again, rebels will be punished and believers blessed.
  
  Please don't take Scriptures out of context. You will understand the Bible a lot better.
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You have clarified it perfectly, I am grateful. Thank you.
  
  Your god must have to put to death a person brutally beaten and then nailed to a cross in order to demonstrate morals and ethics so that the followers will not be punished for disbelieving his forgiveness when he comes to slaughter the rest of us.
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earnestshubposted 15 years ago
I suppose you will have to do what the quoran tells you to do then.

Qur’an 22:19-22 “fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem” “for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods”

Lovely!
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  joecsekoposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That kinda sounds like the Inquisition. Oh, but those were people carrying out God's work, right?
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yep! Just a little bit of gentle correction.
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goldenpathposted 15 years ago
Still love ya, but put these stories in a hub. It would be more productive and wouldn't incite as much negative feedback.
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  When people state this rubbish as truth there will always be some who will speak up.
  How can you take these old stories and pretend they are new? The bible and Quoran are just repeats from the same stories told thousands of years before!
  I guess if the truth were examined a lot of child molesters would be out of a job!
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  paarsurreyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend
  
  You may present your non-rubbish on the topic; please.
  
  Thanks
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  Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  He's allowed to state his opinion.
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paarsurreyposted 15 years ago
Hi friends

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad states further:

In any case it was necessary for Jesus (peace be on him) to find out the whereabouts of these lost sheep, who had, on coming to this country, India, become merged into the other people. I shall presently adduce evidence that Jesus (peace be on him) did in fact come to India and then, by stages, travelled to Kashmir, and discovered the lost sheep of Israel among the people who professed the Buddhist faith and that these people ultimately accepted him, just as the people of the prophet Jonah accepted Jonah. And this was inevitable, for Jesus had said in so many words that he had been sent to the lost sheep of Israel.

Apart from this, it was necessary that he should escape death on the cross, for it was stated in the Holy Book that whoever was hanged on the wood was accursed. It is a cruel and an unjust blasphemy to attribute a curse to an eminent person like Jesus, the Messiah, for, according to the agreed view of all who know the language, la'nat, or curse, has reference to the state of one's heart.

A man would be said to be accursed when his heart, having been estranged from God, becomes really dark; when, deprived of divine mercy and of divine love, devoid absolutely of His Knowledge, blinded like the devil, he becomes filled with the poison of unbelief; when there remains not a ray of divine love and knowledge in him; when the bond of loyalty is broken, and between him and God there arises hatred and contempt and spite and hostility, so much so that God and he become mutual enemies; and when God becomes weary of him and he becomes weary of God; in short, when he becomes an heir to all the attributes of the Devil -- and that is why the Devil himself is called accursed.

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/je … a/ch1.html

I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  eideraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Truly Jesus did not die on the cross. In Qur'an he is a 'rasul' - prophet and a messenger of the injeel, and the messiah who will kill the antichrist on his second coming.
  
  Now Mary Magdalene and another Mary were to return to anoint Jesus again for his recovery. Note there was never a Jewish practice of anointing their dead. The Gospel of Barnabas and the Revelation of Peter both mentions Jesus did not die.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That isn't true. All Hebrew's held the anointing of the living and the dead to be a sacred act.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  B.S. the Hebrews have no record of this. You know more than they do about their history?
  NO
  
  Someone is leading you wrong.
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paarsurreyposted 14 years ago
Hi friends

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908 explains the significance of the word Mal'un or aaccursed:

It is clear that the significance of the word Mal'un, viz. accursed, is so foul that it can never apply to any righteous person who entertains love of God in his heart. Alas! Christians did not ponder over the significance of a curse when they invented this belief; else, it were impossible for them to have used such a bad word for a righteous man like Jesus.

Can we say that Jesus' heart was ever really estranged from God; that he had denied God, that he hated Him and had become His enemy? Can we ever think that Jesus had ever felt in his heart that he was estranged from God, that he was an enemy of God, and that he was immersed in the darkness of unbelief and denial? If, then, Jesus had never been in such a state of mind, that his heart was always full of love and the light of Divine Knowledge, is it for you, wise people, to ponder whether we can ever say that, not one, but thousands of curses from God had descended upon the heart of Jesus with all their evil significance? Never.

Then, how can we say that he was, God forbid, accursed? It is a pity that once a man has given utterance to something, when he has taken his stand upon a particular belief, he is not inclined to give up that belief, however much the absurdity thereof be exposed. Desire to attain salvation, if grounded upon true foundations, is a praiseworthy thing, but where is the sense in having a desire for salvation which kills truth and which countenances, regarding a holy prophet arid a perfect man, the belief that he had as it were passed through a state in which he had been estranged from God, and in which, instead of unity of heart and unity of inclination, there had been produced a strangeness and aloofness, enmity and hatred; and, instead of light, darkness had surrounded his heart?

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/je … a/ch1.html

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Bruce_Leiterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi, peaceful Ahmadi! I apologize for taking so long in sharing my thoughts with you.
  
  I believe that the curse to which you refer must be defined by the Bible's meaning, not the Qur'an's. Go back to Genesis 3, where Adam and Eve fell under God's curse (punishment) because of their proud rebellion against God. The Bible reveals that Adam was the representative head of humanity and that the curse on the human race could only be taken away by a blemish-free sacrifice.
  
  Only Jesus as the perfect God-man could take that curse on himself by truly dying. You accept John the Baptist as a true prophet. He pointed at Jesus as the "Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world," obviously referring to the Old Testament slaughtering of animals for Israel's sins, looking forward to Jesus' perfect sacrifice on Passover, when lamb was slain with its blood smeared on the doorposts of Jews' homes. Yes, he died. He came from heaven for that very purpose.
  
  I, for one, am joyfully thankful! May God give you peace, Ahmadi!
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earnestshubposted 14 years ago
Well you got one thing right!
Contradictions in the bible are from man alright. The whole bible is from man.
What was left of the old stories told by man from the sun god onwards was distorted to suit Rome. If you read something other than your contradictory hate and fear filled tomes you would know that!
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  Valerie Fposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Without God, all that's left for you to believe in is humanity.
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend Valerie F
  
  Without God; there is hardly any humanity; humans have been created by the Creator- God Allah YHWH; so it is a function of God; if there is no God; what is left of the humanity.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The unmistakable fact no one will go to hell and everyone has rights.
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  SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Just one question out of curiosity.
  
  Where do these rights come from?
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Humans.
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  Bruce_Leiterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Why do you state as a fact, Q, your belief? However, you do have a full right to believe as you believe.
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  Michael Adams1959posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  question how can you be a "peaceful muslim" if you are ahmadi? The ahmadi IS radical islam and that is certainly not peaceful. The ahmadi muslim believes in and declares jihad, which is radical islam.
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  DavitosanXposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Humanity?! Darn it, we're basically screwed...
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Harlan Coltposted 14 years ago
Horus was no more than Nimrod, King of Babylon, in a foriegn language. Nimrod was the great grandson of Noah. Nimrod turned satanic and Satan used him like a wet mop. They knew the prophesy of Jesus from Adam on down. Naturally, Nimrod merely mimmiced the prophesy to feel people of the day.

Remember, in the Bible satan is described as an angel of light. He himself said, "I shall be LIKE the most high."

The worldly view of satan as an ugly devil with horns and a pointy tail is man-made fantasy. Satan appears as a god-like persona. What better way to fool people right out of their souls? He is God's smartest, most intelligent creation, but he is also FALLEN - it didn't make him stupid.

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the father, the word, and the holy ghost, and these three are one."
- 1Jhn 5:7

In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God. - John 1:1

And the word became flesh and dwelt among us...
John 1:14

Sounds like Jesus was God to me.

God also promised to preserve his word. Yes, men had messed with God's word over the century's but God's perfect preserved word is still there. If God and create you, and everything around us, he can certainly preserve his word for time of all time.

It's called faith, you either believe it or you don't.

Good post, you got people responding, which is better than I'm doing!

- Harlan
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And there is no reason to believe that Satan has ever slowed down in his attempt to become God like.
  In the book of Revelations, Jesus shows John in visions (94AD) exactly how Satan will be "soon" be doing that again.
  
  Satan would want us to believe that he waits 1900 years after his plan was revealed (In Revelation) before resumeing his efforts. This has caused all of the contracersity that we have today.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yup - faith. Nothing to do with reason or evidence or facts.
  
  Faith - pure and simple.
  
  You are either prepared to argue and twist the facts to suit or you are not.
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yvensposted 14 years ago
After reading this post, one can truly see the fanaticism of religion. The facts are that most religious groups have a hidden agenda nowadays. As for Jesus dyeing on the cross, back then the cross was the ultimate punishment, it could have taken days for someone to die. There has been numerous accounts of people performing the same miracles as Jesus did, before, during and after his time. This is where Muslims got confused and classified Jesus Christ as a prophet and not the son of GOD. Technically speaking we are all the sons and daughters of GOD but, Jesus Christ of Nazareth was not the messiah son of God.
He is the one and the only one!!!

Interesting post, you certainly got the attention and the engagement of us all.
Good on you my friend.
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paarsurreyposted 14 years ago
Hi friends

More evidences from Bible that Jesus did not die a cursed death on the Cross:

Let it also be noticed that this not only detracts from the prophethood and apostleship of Jesus (on whom be the peace of God) but it is also derogatory to his claim to spiritual eminence, holiness, love, and knowledge of God, to which he has repeatedly given expression in the gospels. Just look through the Bible; therein Jesus clearly claims that he is the Light of the world, that he is the Guide, and that he stands in a relation of great love towards God; that he has been honoured by a clean birth, and that he is the loved Son of God.

How then, in spite of these pure and holy relations, can a curse, with all its significance, be attributed to Jesus? No, never. Therefore, there is no doubt that Jesus was not crucified, i.e., he did not die on the Cross, for his personality did not deserve the underlying consequence of death on the Cross. Not having been crucified, he was spared the impure implications of a curse, and no doubt it also proves that he did not go to heaven, for going to heaven formed part of this whole scheme and was a consequence of the idea of his having been crucified.

Therefore, when it is proved that he was neither accursed, nor did he go to hell for three days, nor did he suffer death the other part of the scheme, namely, that he went to heaven, is proved to be wrong. On this point the Bible has more evidence which I proceed to state below. There is the statement of Jesus: 'But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee' (Matthew: chapter 26, verse 32).

This verse clearly shows that Jesus, after he had come out of the tomb, went to Galilee and not to heaven. Jesus' words 'After I am risen' do not mean his rising up alive after he was dead; rather, as in the eyes of the Jews and the common people he had died on the Cross, he used words beforehand consistent with what they were to think of him in the future, and indeed, the man who was placed on the Cross, in whose hands and feet nails had been driven till he had fainted from pain, had become as good as dead; if such a man was saved from such a calamity and if he recovered his senses it would not be an exaggeration on his part to say that he had come to life again.

There is no doubt that after so much suffering, Jesus' escape from death was a miracle; it was no ordinary event. But to think that he had died is wrong. It is true that in the books of the New Testament words of this kind occur, but this is a mistake of the writers of those books, just as they had committed mistakes in recording several other historical events.

Commentators who have made researches into these books admit that the books of the New Testament have two parts: (1) the spiritual instruction received by the disciples from Jesus (peace be on him) which is the essence of the teachings of the Gospel; (2) historical events -- like the genealogy of Jesus; his arrest and his being beaten; the existence in his time of a miraculous pond, etc. These, the writers recorded by themselves; they were not revealed; rather, they were set down in accordance with the writer's own ideas. In some places there are undue exaggerations, as where it is stated that if all the miracles and works of Jesus were recorded in books, the earth would not be able to accommodate these books. How exaggerated is this statement!

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/je … a/ch1.html

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  cae37posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  First of all I don’t know how you can say that Jesus was not crucified on the cross; for the Bible states this act many times in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Jesus also predicts his own death many times. For example:
  
  “We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will turn him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!” (Matthew 20:18-19)
  
  Jesus predicted his death because he knew what he must do. Jesus was sent for a purpose and dying on the cross and shedding his blood for our sins was that purpose. Jesus knew this purpose and fulfilled it when he died on the cross. We know that Jesus was actually on the cross because of scripture. For example:
  “Above his head they placed the written charge against him: This is Jesus, The King of the Jews” (Matthew 27:37).
  
  After his death Jesus’ spirit was lifted to the Father; this statement is proven in scripture when Jesus is taking his finally breathe.
  “Jesus called out with a loud voice, Father, into your hands I commit my spirit. When he had said this he breathed his last” (Luke 23:46).
  
  Now (Matthew 26:32) you are taking this verse to literally that he will actually go to Galilee when he rises from the dead. In the verse he is talking to his disciples will deny him, Peter in particular. He is saying that these denials will separate the herd, but I will still be with you. My New International Bible says “But after I have risen, I will go ahead of you into Galilee” (Matthew 26:32). Is verse isn’t talking about heaven and when Jesus rose from the dead this wasn’t a physical body. He is simply saying that I will be with you through the hard times. Jesus’ spirit was already with Jesus before he rose from the grave.
  
  All of this proves that Jesus really did die on the cross for our sin.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend cae37
  
  None of them, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, were the eyewitnesses of the event of Crucifixion. Their accounts have been cross examined and the truth uncovered and brought to light. Please read the book "Jesus in India":
  
  http://www.alislam.org/library/books/je … index.html
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Harlan Coltposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  People don't understand, there were as many Greek and Hebrew manuscripts of the bible as there are bible versions today. The NIV is among the worst and was consistantly tossed out from well received cannons until 1973 when a couple of wolves in sheeps clothing, named Westcott and Hort picked up the bad manuscripts and made a very watered down bible out of them - step one toward the global religion.
  
  Each year or so - they change it just a little more.
  
  Ahmadi, I doubt I will get you to agree with me on much, but I would like for you to consider this: when the day comes that suddenly everyone see's the Bible and the Quran in agreement - and all religions all agree and are one in the same forming a one world religion, is the day you will know that you just got tricked into believing a false religion forged by satan himself. It will be time to grab an old - original bible and see what you missed -and cry out for Jesus the whole time.
  
  When they tell you that all the millions of people who just disappeared around the earth was an invasion from outerspace or something - its time to recheck your faith and ask yourself - Did Jesus come and take all the christians away? Oh dear God, what have I missed?
  
  - Peace friend
  - Harlan
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  lucieanneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Just for the record (so I know which bible is the 'real one') Which old 'original' bible are you talking about? The King James version - version being the operative word here. Jesus never said 'Verily I say unto thee' or any other thee and thou, They are outdated words and, I believe the King James translators got a bit muddled up with their interpretation of the scriptures. Where are the 'original manuscripts that these translations were taken from? Isn't it about time someone had a bash at translating them so we could ALL understand them?
  Just a thought.
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  Harlan Coltposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  For me, it boils down to this:
  God promised to preserve his word, that it was a pure, perfect and preserved word, and he would preserve it for time of all time. In my heart and in my mind, My God is strong enough to keep this promise.
  
  We can argue about all the versions and make points and demerits about them all. But for me - one of them has to be the perfect preserved word of God or else God is a liar and we might as well go get drunk and party because thats as good as its going to get.
  
  So which word is it? The one that established most of the churches over the last 400 years? or the ones that have been popping up over the last 50 years where many words and verses are missing?
  
  Yea, I would loveth a bible without all the thee's and thou's but funny thing is, those words a kind of like math, once you learn it, its not so bad, and its a lot more clear. The King's English is the perfection of the English language in it's purest most accurate form. It is not because they were all stuck up snoots.
  
  If you want to carry a bible that claims to be easier to read, after it has edited nearly every referece to Jesus blood, his soul cleansing blood - edited out of the pages, then what can I say? The church is growing weaker and its because the bibles are being watered down, not to mention there are now over 100 versions of the bible owned by about 5 different companies - I think its more about profit and not God's word.
  
  FInally, Westcott and Hort, the head translators of the NIV profess openly they did not believe in Christ's deity or his blood washing away people's sin. Sorry, I just can't trust a Bible like that. The Bible is your sword for spiritual battle. Why would WANT to carry a dull sword? Because you hate thee's and thou's? The bible says to let each be fully persuaded in their own mind... to each their own.
  
  - best wishes
  
  Well praise the Lord...
  - Harlan
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  One way of preserving Word is to reveal the message again on a Messenger Prophet ; this way Quran corrects Bible.
  
  [4:106] We have surely sent down to thee the Book comprising the truth, that thou mayest judge between men by that which Allah has taught thee. And be not thou a disputer for the faithless;
  
  http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … ;verse=105
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  Disappearingheadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No one was an eyewitness to Mohamed's alledged conversation with Gabriel I'll warrant. How do you know he didn't just make it all up?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Never really understood this argument from religionists. They do it all the time though - perhaps you could explain?
  
  Basically - to defend your ridiculous beliefs - you are attacking someone else's ridiculous beliefs on the same basis, in this case the Mormons and Islamists.
  
  How does this defend yours in any way shape or form?
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  Disappearingheadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It doen't defend my faith to have a pop at Islam. However Islam doesn't take criticism gracefully.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  LOLOL
  
  It is right there in black and white. He digs at your ridiculous beliefs - you dig at his for exactly the same reasons. LOLO
  
  And of course the Kristian religion is world famous for not having murdered any unbelievers and taking criticism very, very well. "Graceful" is the word that comes to mind. No evangelical attacks on scientific facts or anything. No sirree Bob, evolution - not a problem for any Xtians.
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly, we can take that thought and apply it to every religion, yes?
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  Disappearingheadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus became a curse in our place. The iniquity of men was placed upon Him. He was the sacrifice for our sin. However Islam refuses to accept that man can know he is forgiven in this life, hence the gospel is foolishness to them.
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Jeramiposted 14 years ago
(Q) wrote:
The unmistakable fact no one will go to hell and everyone has rights
=================================

I remember telling my two teenage boys (a long time ago)
That they did not have any rights.. And I didn't either.
All we have got is privlages
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You were wrong. Best to call up your boys and let them know.
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The only rights you have is to get what ya pay for.
  Privlages are paid for with respect. At least till you are old enough to pay for your own.
  
  Every thing that you have came with a price.
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Cagsilposted 14 years ago
Hey Michael, I would of thought that his/her/its action would have been apparent. This person's approach is just like that which you made reference to. And, it's sad.
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  Michael Adams1959posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  yes it is, I don't know as much as I would like about the islamic ahmadi but I do know a little
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Cagsilposted 14 years ago
It is a perfect example of what all bibles preach.....do as I say, not as I do.
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  wavegirl22posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  why are you in here?
  lol i know you have better places to be!
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I was originally responding to someone's interesting comment. However, it's about to get a little bit more interesting. Then, I'm leaving it be.
  
  @SirDent,
  
  You have what you have. You think/believe you understand Jesus and his teachings. That's fine. But, what you do not do, is interpret what I know of Jesus' works, versus yours.
  
  There cannot ever be one conclusion, unless all the facts are revealed. The fact is RELIGION(man-made) hid Jesus' works in it's B.S., so people wouldn't realize the truth of his words. End of story. You keep believing you have the truth. Enjoy!
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  SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Even though you don't believe it, Jesus showed you the way. To show is to live the life or walk the walk ion case you do not know.
  
  It is only by your own choosing that you refuse to see or know Jesus.
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sabrebIadeposted 14 years ago
I thought that (according to historical records of other crucifixions) Roman guards were not allowed to leave the scene of a crucifixion until the victim was dead, thus making sure the order was carried out.
So how could Jesus be taken away before the guards were sure he was dead and the punishment had been carried out?
You know they wouldn't have wanted to crucify someone, then have them show up a week later in the marketplace.
"Oh...I thought he was dead. He musta got better."
That would look kinda bad on the law and the people enforcing it.
So I think the guards probably made darn sure he was dead before they allowed Joseph of Arimathea to take the body away.
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Jeramiposted 14 years ago
I believe that Jesus was the Messiah foretold in prophetic scripture and that he fulfilled every one of them.

This is all that I need to know concerning this matter.
I also consider the "end time" prophesy as given in the old testament as factual until personal interpretation is applied.
I do not understand why we have to change the meanings of scripture.
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Mikioposted 14 years ago
If you read John Dominic Crossan's works, you may learn the phrase, 'prophesy historicized.' It means that biblical narratives were written in order to fulfill biblical prophesies. Mark and Matthew wrote their respective story of Jesus in order to show that Jesus lived according to prophesies found in the Hebrew Bible. Did Jesus 'actually' live exactly how the Hebrew Bible had predicted? Crossan doubted. So did I. The reason? Jesus' last words on the cross, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" were reported in Mark & Matthew only. These words were quotes from the Hebrew Bible. Luke and John have different last words for Jesus.
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  TMMasonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It was his prophesied testimony. A declaration unto the world he had fulfilled his sacrafice. Elio Elio Lema Sabachthani... the 22nd Psalms. That is what affirms his messiahship.
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  Mikioposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You actually 'believe' that Jesus is the Messiah because he said, "Elio Elio Lema Sabachthani?!" Prophesy historicized means that Mark (and Matthew) put the quote from 22nd Psalms into Jesus' mouth. It was Mark's way of trying to convince people like you to believe that Jesus was the suffering servant of God. If Jesus actually said those words, how come Luke and John miss it?
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mevsmyselfposted 14 years ago
It's been 2010 years. Get over it already.
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paarsurreyposted 14 years ago
Hi friends

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad- The Promised Messiah in Second Coming further elaborates from Bible that Jesus did not die on the Cross:

Apart from this, it is not against usages of speech to describe the great calamity which had befallen Jesus as death. When a man, having passed through a life and death experience, is ultimately saved from it, the common speech of all peoples expresses the idea by the idiomatic expression -- 'he was given a new life', and no people to whatever country they may belong would demur at expressing that idea in this way.

After all that has been stated, it should be kept in mind that in the gospel of Barnabas, which must be available in the British Museum, it is stated that Jesus was not crucified, not did he die on the Cross. Now we can very well say that though this book is not included in the gospels and has been rejected summarily, yet there is no doubt that it is an ancient book, and it belongs to the period in which the other gospels were written.

Is it not open to us to regard this ancient book as a book of history of ancient times and to make use of it as a book of history? Does it not follow from this book that at least at the time when the event of the Cross took place, people were not unanimous as to Jesus' dying on the Cross? Again, apart from this, when in the four gospels themselves there are such metaphors as the one about a dead person, that he is not dead but asleep, it is not beyond reason to suppose that a state of swoon might be described as a state of death.

I have already stated that a prophet cannot lie. Jesus compared his three days' stay in the tomb to the three days of Jonah in the belly of the whale. This only shows that just as Jonah remained alive for three days in the belly of the whale, so did Jesus remain alive for three days in the tomb. The Jewish tombs of those days were not like the tombs of to-day; they were roomy and had an opening on one side, which was covered with a big stone. And, presently, I shall prove in due course that Jesus' tomb which has been recently discovered in Srinagar in Kashmir is of the same type as the one in which Jesus was placed in a state of swoon.

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/je … a/ch1.html

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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sabrebIadeposted 14 years ago
I find it odd that you are quoting Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.
Didn't the Ulema brand him as a heretic and accuse him of working for the British Government due his call for the termination of armed Jihad?
He even had a Fatwa of disbelief issued against him, declaring him a Kafir, a deceiver, a liar, and him and his followers were targeted to be killed.
Ahmed Rida Khan labeled him an apostate and over thirty religious scholars said that Ghulam Ahmad’s beliefs were blasphemous, tantamount to apostasy, and that he must be punished by imprisonment and / or execution.
And these were Islamic scholars.
I admit I like his idea of Jihad being abolished, (Mainly because I like to see anything like that stopped on general principal) but why are you quoting a man's work that as far as I can tell amounts to heresy with other Muslims?
His followers are even today persecuted in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia and are considered non-Muslims, even though modern Muslim scholars and Muslim intellectuals seem to conform to the idea of peaceful Jihad as a struggle for reform through civil means as Ghulam Ahmad did.
I'm just curious as to why you embrace his beliefs.
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  DevLinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  As I do. Ahmadi declared himself Christ reborn, and rewrote their own Quran. All Muslims believe Christ ascended into heaven, but not dying on the cross. Only Ahmadi's say he moved to India. They've even been deemed a cult for following this man's teachings. Pakistan ruled them non-Muslim's in 1974.
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nikki1posted 14 years ago
Thought this may help...
I googled up "Jesus on the cross"/
Jesus on the cross
Posted by Uni on Sun, 01/25/2009 - 3:15am in Blasphemy Bazarre
When Jesus was hanging there on the cross, suddenly he cries out "PETER!"

Peter yells: "I'm coming Lord" and tries to get to him. But he's beaten and kicked back down the hill by Roman soldiers.

A few minutes later, Jesus cries louder: "PETER!"

Again, Peter rushes up the hill only to be beaten and kicked back down the hill again by the Roman soldiers.

A few minutes later, Jesus cries out, louder still - "PETER!"

This time, Peter fights and struggles and claws his way up the hill to stand at the feet of Jesus. "I'm here Lord" he says.

Jesus looks at him and then looks off in the distance. Then he says, "I can see your house from here!"
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  purple cowposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  All this jibber jabber is arrogance and pride.
  If there is a God or any other deity out there i doubt very much they need our help defending themselves.
  If we all look deeply into our hearts we will see how irrelevent and empty all our theological arguments are.
  What we need as a world is action not words, and i dont mean blowing anyone who disagrees with us to oblivion.
  Lets be nice to each other for a change.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  Hi friend purple cow
  
  The Creator-God Allah YHWH has attributes; as being a Creator, one of his attribute, he created Jesus; similarly it is his attribute to hear the prayers of the righteous persons and to help them out in distress. Hence it is very much according to his these attributes that the Creator-God Allah YHWH heard Jesus' prayers made so fervently in the Garden of Gethsemane and also right on the Cross to save his life.
  
  Jesus needed help and so he prayed; we should be thankful that the Creator-God Allah YHWH heard Jesus' prayers and saved his life. Shouldn't we be thankful to Him for saving Jesus’ life?
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  help with what? His own words say he was a willing servant, even to the point of blood-sweat remained humble and alert to the Fathers desire, making his blood the forgiving atonement for even those outside.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend Twenty One Days
  
  Jesus had promised with Jews to show them Sign of Jonah; and Jonah came out of the fish alive and remained alive long afterwards. If Jesus was to show the sign; he must be saved death on Cross and to live long afterwards.It is here that he was helped by God Allah YHWH and Jesus saved his life.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You say he did not die, yet also say he fulfilled the prophecy of Jonah -spending three days in the belly of the earth?
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend Twenty One Days
  
  Jesus' friends knew because of the Prophecy; that Jesus is alive; so they took him hurriedly to a solitary and spacious tomb, for treatment, while Jews thought otherwise.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  where is this proof?
  
  And if you believe on Him so, how can you deny his death -from which the foundations of the sacrifice were bound to the alter, the peg of the tent holding all things together? The broken Vav now Zayin? Had he not died, how can you testify he is the Son of the Most High?
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  SirDentposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Three days to heal from deadly wounds is a miracle that can only be done by God Himself.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend SirDent
  
  Don't you believe in miracles?
  
  I don't say Jesus was bound to be in the Tomb for three days; and count the days as mentioned in Bible; it won't be even three days.
  
  Jesus was unconscious when he was "laid" in the tomb; he gained consciousness in three days. The scribes wrote from hearsay;hardly ever reasonable and thinking as to what they were writing. If one makes one's thinking reasonable; one can decipher truth from it; otherwise one may get mislead.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  pisean282311posted 14 years agoin reply to this
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Dave Mathewsposted 14 years ago
It is reported in The Holy Bible, that Jesus did die on the cross. As a matter of fact a soldier pierced his side with a lance or spear to prove him dead.

Brother Dave.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend Dave Mathews
  
  I don't agree with you.
  
  It is the physicians who check if a man is dead or alive; not the soldiers. The Bible is wrong here that it is the duty of the soldiers to declare on dead or alive. Later they did not put him in a pit; but they hurriedly took him to a spacioud tomb only to treat him there.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  watchyaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Call the Forensics LOL
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  brotheryochananposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  i would say a soldier has both the experience and knowledge to percieve a dead guy.
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  skipper112posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  paar I was a soldier I can tell you truthfully I will bet you any soldier can tell if a person is DEAD so get your FACTS right I do not need a Doctor, I know if the man I shot is dead PERIOD
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  china manposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It may be worth pointing out htat doctors are the best judge of whether someone is dead, soldiers are typically the least educated members of society and are not trained or qualified in this line. Similarly argument is best carried out by philosophers, theology best discussed by theologians - random shouting is hardly the way to carry on a discussion.
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Bruce_Leiterposted 14 years ago
This blog has been very interesting. I believe that Jesus died on the cross as my substitute to take away my curse and that of all believers. Why?

I believe the eyewitnesses who saw Jesus' death. Some of you use the Bible to argue that he didn't die. Jesus' prediction of his three-day time in the grave goes according to the Jewish way of calculating days. Any part of a day was counted as a whole day by the Jews of that time. Also, Jesus' parallel is between Jonah's and Jesus' confinement in a place of death. But Jonah survived by God's grace, while Jesus' human body didn't. However, his divine nature did survive at death. He was both fully divine and fully human, as he claimed in John's eyewitness account in his Gospel that "Before Abraham was, I AM." The Jews knew what Jesus was claiming, since they picked up stones to kill him for blasphemy (John 8:58,59).

Furthermore, Jesus made other claims that "I AM...the bread of life,...the light of the world,...the good shepherd (identifying himself with YAHWEH in Psalm 23),...the resurrection and the life." He accompanied those statements that directly connected him with the "I AM THAT I AM" (YAHWEH) who revealed himself to Moses on Mount Sinai in the burning bush that didn't burn up when he did mighty miracles feeding a large crowd with a small amount of food just as God did in the desert with manna, healing a man born blind, and raising 4-day-dead Lazarus.

Why do I believe the Apostle John's account in his Gospel rather than the idea that the early church made all or some of it up? I say, either accept all of it or none of it. I don't see how some of you can accept Jesus' prophecy about him and Jonah without accepting his many prophecies about his death. (Incidently, his followers, along with most Jews at that time, believed that the Messiah would come and be their earthly ruler instead of the Romans.) As a result, his predictions about his death and resurrection went in their collective ears and out again. But they remembered his words afterwards by the Holy Spirit, as Jesus also predicted in John 14, 15, and 16.

Anyway, I believe John's eyewitness account, first of all, because of his statement that he saw the soldier stab Jesus' side to make sure he was really dead as he seemed to them to be in John 19:34, 35. "The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe" (verse 35).

Just think about it. Why would the early church make up an incredible story that in the beginning Jesus was "the Word...with God, and the Word was God....The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us" (John 1:1,14)? Further, why would they concoct a story that their spiritual leader died on a criminal's cross, rose from the dead, and violated gravity to return to God's side ruling the universe with the Father. It's actually more credible to believe in the eyewitnesses' accounts than to believe that the church thought up such a chain of events.

Then, why should we believe John and the other eyewitnesses? All of their hopes of fame and fortune, power and prestige, were crushed when Jesus died on a cross instead of tossing the Romans out of power. Parts of three days later (three full days, according to their culture), they experienced an event that turned their discouragement to courage, their grief to joy. They testified consistently in the face of the religious leaders', the Greeks', and the Romans' persecution, even facing death, proclaiming that they had seen Jesus' alive from the dead as their God-man leader with whom they were united by God the Father and the Holy Spirit.

However, they never said that they had become God or gods but that the 3-in-1 God empowered them to testify to everyone that Jesus died and arose from his death to enable believers to be forgiven and to receive eternal life, not because of our "good" actions but solely because of Jesus, the God-man.

If you and I had made up such a tale, we certainly would have disowned it to escape persecution, especially to save our own skins. However, all of the eyewitnesses of Jesus' resurrection stuck to their story. For example, Peter was crucified upside down for his beliefs, and John was exiled to the Island of Patmos because of his testimony. He then described in the Book of Revelation visions that God gave him that demonstrate Jesus' deity and rulership of the universe with God the Father (Revelation 1 and 4).

These reasons and many more lead me to believe that the Bible is God's inspired writings compared to other writings.

I just finished reading the Qur'an a short time ago. I ask you Muslims, who I consider to be my friends, why their book has so many threats of hell for unbelievers in Allah. About every third page has graphic threats of non-Muslims' dire future. Is Islam a religion of fear? If so, the strong contrast that I see with Christian belief based on the Bible is that the God of the Bible is a God who is just in punishing all human imperfections (sins) and full of grace in unconditionally accepting all who receive Jesus Christ, who received the curse of Genesis chapter three as their substitute on the cross. We do not in any way earn our way into Paradise, but God accepts us solely because of his Son's perfect life and death.

Do you want a set of beliefs that emphasize fear to keep you a believer or one that accepts you as you are (grace) and then transforms you to be more and more like God?
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  Disappearingheadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Couldn't have said it better myself. Top banana.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  LOLOLOL
  
  So he unconditionally accepts - on the condition that you recieve Jesus?
  
  How is that unconditional? You do know that unconditional means "without conditions"? Right?
  
  I mean - you do understand this is directly contradictory.. Unconditional - on the condition that.......
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  "Unconditionally conditional." Yep, sounds about right!
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  Bruce_Leiterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No, according to Ephesians 2:1-10, we all are born dead to God, and he makes believers alive so that we have faith in him by God's grace and become his "workmanship" (work of art) being made more and more like him, the way Adam and Eve were in God's likeness in Genesis 1. Therefore, the fact that we come to believe is completely to God's credit, not ours or God's condition.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So - not unconditionally then? LOLOLOLO I wonder if you speak English? There are conditions. Thus - your invisible friend does not love unconditionally.
  
  Why do you feel the need to lie about this? Although - I thank you - It is liars for Jesus that taught me your religion is nonsense. Thank you. Semantics ... Hmm tasty semantics. LOLOL
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  Bruce_Leiterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm sorry, Mark, that I didn't express myself clearly enough for you. There is no condition in my life, even faith in God, which is his free gift as well, that enables God to love me. The only condition is that the Father gave his one and only Son, Jesus, to live a perfect life, die my rightful criminal's death in my place, and rise from the dead. As he gives us the Holy Spirit's power with a new birth to trust in Jesus, not in ourselves in any way, to give us life forever, he then begins to re-make our lives. Believing in him is not a condition, but God's gift.
  
  God gave me the Holy Spirit through Jesus when I was 16, when he convinced me that he is real, Jesus is God, and that he inspired the Bible. Previously, I had attended church but was what I call an "ignorostic," someone who ignores God. I hated going to church and working with my mother in her garden. When God gave me the new birth and faith in him, I eagerly wanted to do both. The Christian faith is the only one that teaches the God who created us and re-creates us from the inside out.
  
  I hope that these comments clarify my earlier thoughts for you.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hey Bruce, do you see you are or have become a walking contradiction?
  
  I pointed out, because apparently it is not within your own delusion to see.....so I highlighted what you said, so you can see better.
  
  Try to enjoy!
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Dear me. I am not really interested in your irrational beliefs. I was merely pointing the obvious contradiction in this statement:
  
  Clearly - your imaginary friend only accepts those who "receive Jesus Christ" - This is not "unconditionally accepting."
  
  Is it? There is a condition, is there not? Please don't use the rambling semantics - a simple yes or no will suffice.
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  Bruce_Leiterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The answer is "no," Mark. There is nothing in me to make God love me. Only Jesus' perfection is what God uses to love me. Thanks, Mark, for asking.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend Bruce_Leiter
  
  Please mention here the names of the eyewitnesses who saw Jesus' death. Were they the physicians? Or did they made up the story so that others may take up Jesus as dead while he was alive to save his legs being broken?
  
  Please
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Disappearingheadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend paarsurry
  
  Please mention here the names of the eyewitnesses who saw Gabriel talking to Mohammed. Were they lawyers? Or did they make up the story so that others may believe the Quran was inspired by God?
  
  Please
  
  Thanks
  
  I am Disappearinghead peaceful Christian (sometimes)
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend Disappearinghead
  
  Quran was authored by the Creator- God Allah YHWH and revealed on the heart of Muhammad over a period of 23 years; whenever a revelation was made, Muhammad immediately memorized it by heart and from him his companions; as an auxiliary measure Muhammad also dictated the Revelation to the scribes for writing. Both these system continue to our times; they support one another and could be verified.
  
  No such system is available with the Bible.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Bruce_Leiterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  As far as I'm concerned, Muslims can believe what they want to. I can agree to disagree. However, I believe, after a lot of study and reading about Muslim and Christian beliefs, that Allah is a different God from YHWH, as you spell his Old Testament name. They both claim to be the Creator-God of the universe. On the other hand, it is my understanding that most Muslims believe that Allah is an impersonal God who doesn't have a person because that description would associate him too closely with humanity. Rather, he appears to be the unmoved Mover of all things.
  
  By contrast, the Old and New Testament God (Yahweh/theos) is a personal God who made humans like him in some ways, though he is spirit and they are flesh. He entered into a covenant (a personal and communal relationship) with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the last one being the parent of the Israelites. Jesus in his human and divine natures fulfilled that covenant by his perfect life and death as believers' substitute so that his Father's justice against sins was satisfied.
  
  The New Testament's further reveals that that God is three persons in one God, a concept that Muslims all reject for Allah. There are many other diffterences between the two Gods.
  
  However, you admit that Mohammed was the only direct witness to his visions. Either his visions were from Allah through an angel or they were from Satan. They did not come trom the same God who inspired the Bible, because those two Gods are very different. For example, isn't it true that Muslims rely on their good life to get them to Paradise? The problem is that you don't know how much goodness is enough. With the God of the Bible, Jesus' life, death, and resurrection get us to Paradise and change our lives to believe and to be more like God. Some day Jesus will return to declare non-believers in him "gullty" and believers "not guilty" and make all of us perfect in a new creation--all by grace. Read Matthew 25:31-46 and notice that the believing "sheep" are blessed by the Father and live accordingly. They don't earn anything.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend Bruce_Leiter
  
  I think you are playing with your sacred scriptures; please don't try to add wisdom to your scriptures; which is not there for sure. Please quote both from Bible OT and NT in support of your claims; no guess work, please. People will be verifying it.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Bruce_Leiterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  OK, paarsurrey. Genesis 12, 15, and 17 clearly describe the personal relationship or covenant that God made with Abraham, summarized frequently through the Old Testament as "I will be your God and you will be my people. That covenant line continued through Isaac, "Then, God said, 'Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendents after him. And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. But my covenant I wil establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year'" (Genesis 17:19-21).
  
  That same covenant with believing individuals in Israel and with the nation continued in a new form into the New Testament fulfilled by Jesus Christ's lfe and death, When he began Communion or the Lord's Supper, Jesus said about the Passover cup, "This is the cup of the new covenant in my blood, which is out for you" (Luke 22:20). After his resurrection as the God-man, Jesus started the church, which succeeded Israel as follows: "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age" (Matthew 28:18-20).
  
  These claims and commands make Jesus more than a prophet. He was claiming to be God with the one name of the Father, Jesus, and the Spirit. Either he was mentally ill or he was God, not just a good teacher or a great prophet. He died willingly with "a loud cry, breathing his last" (Mark 15:37). He also promised one of the thieves being crucified with him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43). Jesus had authority to rescue that criminal because his life was fully pure and because of his death as his substitute like the animal sacrifices of the old covenant. (However, he backed up his claims and commands in the Gospels with many miracles and his resurrection, witnessed by over 500 people at once and by smaller groups over 40 days).
  
  Why can God have a unique Son (Jesus) and adopted children (believers)? One of the reasons is that as the all-powerful Creator he made humanity "in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them" (Genesis 1:27). This statement cannot mean that we look like him physically because God is spirit, not flesh and blood, according to Jesus in John 4:24, "God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship him in spirit and in truth" to the sinful woman who came to believe in Jesus as the Messiah. After all, as the Creator God can do anything he wants to.
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  Disappearingheadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend paarsurry
  
  Bible was authored by the Creator- God and revealed on the heart of all its writers (irrespective of who they were) over a period of a few thousand years; whenever a revelation was made, the writers immediately memorised it by heart and it was writen down. As an auxiliary measure Paul also dictated the Revelation to the scribes for writing. Both these system continue to our times; they support one another and could be verified.
  
  However the Quran was a 'Revelation' to ONE SINGLE man. Where are the checks and balances? Moslems just believe he was speaking the truth without question. You don't know whether he made it all up over 23 years, was delusional, or decieved. Because you only have one single writer, you have no other independant revelations from other writers to corroborate the story. The bible was written by many authors who are all in harmony.
  
  No such system is available with the Bible.
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  There is a variety of insanity contained in religions, yours does not hold the monopoly.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend (Q)
  
  I think the most insanity part is with the Skeptic Atheists and the Agnostics; and religions are not jealous of that, you know. Enjoy your part freely; without any compulsion whatsoever.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I know.
  
  It's just like the concept of Flatland. A one-dimensional mindset attempting to ponder three dimensions.
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  Bruce_Leiterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The eyewitnesses of Jesus' death were the Apostle John, his mother Mary, the other women who supported Jesus and his twelve followers financially, the Roman soldiers, and many other observers and passersby. Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus, two Pharisees who secretly believed in Jesus, took his body to Joseph's new tomb. As my reply said, the soldiers saw that Jesus was dead, but one stabbed him with his sword. Out came water and blood. Physicians say that that symptom demonstrates that Jesus was indeed dead, for it shows that Jesus died from a broken heart, literally. John saw the soldier stab Jesus and was willing to die himself for his testimony and was finally exiled to a penal-colony island--all to hold on to his eyewitness of Jesus' death and resurrection. Even the Roman centurian proclaimed Jesus the Son of God.
  .
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fred allenposted 14 years ago
paarsurrey- I commend you on you faithfulness to respond to conflicting viewpoints. You are a man of honor. If more of us Christ followers had the same commitment to gracefully tuning it to others perspectives and responding with the same respectful zeal as you maybe more would listen and be saved.
Whil I disagree with your understanding of the events that transpired, I am not threatened by it and will not resort to belittling what you believe. I will instead applaud you for your faithfulness and wait patiently for the day when you will allow me to present the case for Christ, unworthy as I am.
Thank you
Fred
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  Disappearingheadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Fred. It's odd you say this because paarsurry continually belittles scripture and insults the prophet Paul. I see no reciprocal grace in anything he has written.
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  Bruce_Leiterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I do commend paarsurrey for being willing to listen and respond to other viewpoints unlike Muslims who respond in violence. As Jesus taught, I believe in loving everyone and in leaving anger out of interesting discussions of differing viewpoints. Good for you, paarsurrey, for posting this hub and following through with it. I hope that all of us can disagree agreeably.
  
  Disappearinghead, I posted a response to you on my hub, Overcoming Doubt.
  
  I invite everyone here to go to my hub to discuss faith and doubts.
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MeGunnerposted 14 years ago
Hi everyone. This peaceful muslim obviously wants to believe part of the scripture to suit his own purposes. How can you affirm that the scripture is not from God and still pick a verse of the scriptures to convince us that Jesus did not die on the cross. Please let him premise his arguments on the merits of the quoran. Truth is christians don't read the quoran (they don't have to), but these guys study the bible and always try to twist issues... Am sure there were many witnesse when Allah revealed the quoran. Am sure some even heard those things right? Personal revelations indeed!!!
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Dobsonposted 14 years ago
Anything can be supposed by well meaning readers, but the truth was then, is now and always shall be that Jesus is God, did what was foretold by the prophets, reigns on high today and will return to reign soon. Believe anything else and you will be sorrowfully disappointed!
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Interesting you say that.
  
  The truth - Jesus' work was not religion, for which, has been the whole damn problem to begin with.
  
  There is no individual or personal god. If those who claim to understand Jesus or his work, would then know that he said that religious leaders of that time worship a false god/idol. Yet, believers still believe in the same god as religion.
  
  Jesus' work was coded to make it appear as if he was teaching religious scripture to his followers, so as to not be found out by those who were ruling. He was executed for no crime, but did threaten the ruling power's ability to control society. It wasn't till after his execution did Christianity rise. Coincidence? Not! The coded message Jesus brought forth was incorporated, so as to not lose followers or control. *(the fact that his message was coded is what is missing or not made easily grasped through scripture)
  
  Kingdom of God, Son of God, God, Holy Spirit and any other mention of the spirit, is always and always been to direct YOU the believer to look within yourself and realize your own potential for control over your life, without the incessant need to answer to a higher power, because there is no higher power than self.
  
  There is however a higher purpose than self, just not a higher power who is in control of your life.
  
  Any research of ancient world history and ancient religious world history can bare fruit as to what was said above about Jesus' work. Just reading the bible bares nothing, because everything is out of context and done so on purpose.
  
  Just a thought.
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  Bruce_Leiterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Cagsil, you are a true humanist who relies on yourself for meaning in life. However, have you read the Bible straight through, or do you depend on what others have said about it? If you haven't, I invite you to do just that, not as a modern history, but as history written from God's viewpoint by prophets and apostles and others who got their information in the New Testament directly from eyewitnesses of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection.
  
  I ask you, when you die, how far will your reliance on yourself get you? Jesus said, "Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Matthew 5:48) after calling us to love our enemies. Such seemingly-impossible goals would never have been made up by the church or any other group. As humans we generally want achievable goals that we can do in our own strength. Such standards could never have come from the human mind. Therefore, your idea that the early church somehow manipulated the Bible does hold water. There are so many events and commands in the Bible that are beyond human thought and had to have come from God.
  
  The point is that such amazing claims and commands came from the God-man, Jesus. The 3-in-1 God enables believers to make progress toward perfection, though we're all far from perfect in this life. This fact should help all skeptics to get over their anger at fallible Christians. You can have the same faith of true believers as God's free gift that will carry you into the next life.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And your point? Considering you are placing that label on me. Then again, religious folk are great for jumping to judgments of others, even though their religion tells them not to. Nice to see you follow your religion as closely as you follow my posting.
  Excuse you sir, can or can you not read? Or did you not bother reading my post at all or only read what you wanted to supposed correct.
  Had you read my post, my view is different from yours, yet you continue to run your mouth, as if it matters?
  It won't matter when I am dead, or you claiming something after death? However, your delusion is your delusion. What happens when I am done with this life? Who cares. When I am dead, the work I leave behind will be all that matters- therefore I live eternally in the minds of others. So, I'm not exactly sure of your point to begin with. Maybe you are unable to handle your delusion and seek guidance? I do not know, but apparently you seem to be missing something.
  Oh please, like you're perfect nor is any other human being in existence. So, the above statement(scripture) is irrelevant. Perfection cannot ever be obtained on a human level, because humans are prone to make mistakes.
  And, had you read my post up above, you know that I see what Jesus' works provides quite differently and you can continue blowing smoke with your words.
  
  I have read the bible, cover to cover. Many times, I might add. It was part of my 15 years of religious study, not to mention, as a child of Catholic family, I was raised in.
  
  I am presently 41, going on 42, have completed my life's research- there is NOTHING a religious person can say about religion or it's fake god, to change the results of my research.
  
  Had you actually walk the steps in doctrine, as your god laid them out, then we would not be having this conversation now.
  
  But, you can have a great day though.
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  Bruce_Leiterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks, Cagsil. You have a great day too. You have completed your research? You mean that you are no longer open to other ideas? Why are on this web site, then? You have a perfect right to believe or not believe as you wish. However, I also have a right to express what I believe. Why are you so negative about the Christian beliefs? What turned you off after 15 years of religious study and your own research?
  
  You say that I labeled you. Humanism isn't a negative term, but it is a set of beliefs. I'm curious. How would describe your beliefs? The reason that I ask is that I'm interested in understanding people, not opposing them.
  
  The perfection that Jesus commanded us to strive for is not attainable in this life, but God provides believers with some progress toward Jesus' goal, which will be gained in the next life--all by Jesus' perfect life, death, and resurrection--by the Holy Spirit's power from the Father. My point in mentioning Jesus' goal for our perfection was that human minds wouldn't have come up with that command and that God through Jesus had to have given it to us along with every other event and command in the Bible. Jesus' peace be with you.
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Christianity is not a new idea, it is cult based on earlier cults dating back centuries. The ideas are medieval and completely outdated to the Bronze Age.
  
  Do you? Do you have the right to love and obey a god that hates me and will send me to an eternity of hellfire? Would you much rather see your fellow man burn in agony than give up loving and worshiping such an evil entity.
  
  You have the right to express these beliefs? And, you want us to accept these beliefs and respect them?
  
  Any cult hell bent on the destruction of mankind is not a positive ideology.
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  Disappearingheadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Q,
  As far as I can tell Christianity is the first religion to proclaim that God comes to Earth in the flesh to offer himself as a sacrifice for sin, and to provide a way to have a relationship with that God.
  
  Sure many cults and pagan ideas claim the gods came to Earth in the flesh, but their purpose is never altruistic.
  
  Just so you know. God does nothate you, but loves you. He sees you sin and the consequences for you because of it. So He has provided a get-out-of-hell-free-card in sending His Son to die and take your sin upon Himself. You however have chosen to reject God's gift of love to you. That is something you will have to answer for, not anyone else.
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  But, Christianity isn't the first religion to proclaim such things. It proclaims that which has already been proclaimed in earlier religions.
  
  Neither is Christianity. History has demonstrated that in spades.
  
  No, he hates me and will send me to an eternity of hellfire for not worshiping and obeying him.
  
  Sin is concept created by believers that has little or no meaning in reality.
  
  Once again, your god hates me for rejecting his so-called gift and will send me to a lake of fire for an eternity. A vindictive and evil god is exactly what you worship, no different than a monstrous, murderous despot.
  
  Of course, Islam also has a god with a get-out-of-hell-free-card too, in which YOU will be sent to an Islamic lake of hellfire to burn for an eternity, which is something YOU will have to answer for, not anyone else.
  
  Notice how irrelevant your threat to me was in light of an Islamic threat to you?
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  Disappearingheadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Why do you thnk I was threatening you? I was doing nothing of the sort.
  
  Sin can be defined as doing something that which you know to do is wrong. Who sets the standards of human morality? To you maybe killing a fly is a bad thing to do. To another, killing 6 million Jews is perfectly acceptable behaviour. God sets the standards, but to most these standards are an irrelevance.
  
  The truth is, man is in sin as his natural state. God sees this predicament, and because He loves you, He sent His Son to take the payment instead of you. Why to you hate God or Christians for this?
  
  Suppose you were suffering from some terminal illness and I had a cure. Would you reject the cure because you would rather believe you could make yourself better by your own self effort?
  
  Just so you know, Islam cannot offer its adherants any peace that they will go to Heaven. To them Allah is some far off cold absent God who is unknowable, and does not speak to them. They just hope their good deeds out balance their bad deeds on the judgement scale of fate. They are truely orphans.
  
  But Jesus promises His followers that God will be their Father. He extends that offer to you too.
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No, it isn't, sin is breaking a gods law and has nothing to do with what is right and what is wrong.
  
  Humans. Who else?
  
  Of course they are irrelevant, just as irrelevant as the hundreds of gods who make them? Yours is no different.
  
  That is pure nonsense and demonstrates only hatred, fear and ignorance of the human condition.
  
  Myths and superstitions of the bronze age come in many forms, yours is one that has repeated itself over the centuries gleaned from earlier myths and superstitions.
  
  A 'real' terminal illness that can be cured by 'real' medicine does not equate to the myths and superstitions that make up your cults beliefs. Your comparison is meaningless.
  
  Notice how your belief system and the Islamic belief system are one and the same when it comes to what they believe of each others religion. Silly in the extreme, isn't it.
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  Disappearingheadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So if you believe all this is bronze age superstition, why do you get so worked up about it? Live your live in peace and happiness.
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Impossible, there are too many religions causing too much conflict in the world over bronze age myths and superstitions. The madness and insanity has to stop or there will never be peace and happiness.
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  ehaunposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Bruce_Leiter,
  
  The thread I’ve been reading between you and Cagsil is disappointing. You are quoting bible verses yet judgment is still in your tone of words.
  Example:
  "However, have you read the Bible straight through, or do you depend on what others have said about it?"
  “You have completed your research? You mean that you are no longer open to other ideas? Why are on this web site, then?”
  
  Do you honestly think anyone is going to come to Christ because of those words? This is why Christianity is looked down upon!!!- because there are "christians" who still treat people unequal while pointing the finger and casting them aside.
  
  Stating what you believe is different from quarreling and tossing the other person’s ideals out the window. You could state your opinion-that is fine. But don’t tear down the other person in the process. That won’t help him neither you.
  
  You’re questioning Cagsil about him reading the bible and from a viewer’s perspective, you are almost taunting with your words. Yet you claim to be a Christian.
  Having that said—If you know the bible so well, does these verses ring a bell?
  
  Matthew 7:1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged”
  Romans 14:13 “Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this-- not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way”
  
  I’m not being condescending towards you; however, as a Christian I wanted to let you know this could be why you aren’t receiving a good response from Cagsil.
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  Bruce_Leiterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Ehaun, how did you interpret my questions as taunting? I was not. I was asking Cagsil questions to which I was sincerely wanting his answers. I don't know how you thought that I was angry. I was not. I'm sincerely interested in other people's beliefs and their reasons for those beliefs. You're reading anger into my words that isn't there. I hope that this clarifies for you my approach, for it is genuinely my way to treat others. I apologize to you, Cagsil, if you interpreted my words the same as Ehaun.
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jxnjerryposted 14 years ago
Sir, and I use that phrase carefully. You are out of your everlovin' mind. You have NO idea what you are talking about. A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument. You need to renounce Islam and surrender your life to the living God, the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave His life on the cross so you could have a relationship with the Father, Yahweh, Elohim, El Shaddai, Jehovah. After dying on the cross, He was ressurected from the dead and now sits at the right hand of the Father making intercesssion for the Saints. Open your heart to receive the Truth, which is a higher reality than facts.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You're kidding right?
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  luvpassionposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  What religious leaders of the time did Jesus say worshiped false gods/idols...not Jewish.
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  Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If you would like to be specific? Religion. I would have thought that would be clear enough.
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  HE DID SAY THAT YOU WERE GOINA GO IT THOUGH.
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  Bruce_Leiterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The Jewish leaders of that time had faith in the rules and regulations that they added to the Bible as a "hedge." The law and their added rules were their idol, an external religion the "worship" of which Jesus condemned, for example, in Luke 1137-54.
  
  Religion involves the formal ways a spiritual group practices their faith. Anything, activity, or person can be our idol if we make them as important as or more important than the God of the Bible. I believe on the basis of the Bible (Psalm 51) that we're all born self-centered (sinful) and that God has to change us through Jesus by the Spirit to overcome that "selfism" to make him the only important one upon we rely for our daily living.
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Joezapposted 14 years ago
The scripture says in:
Jhn 19:34
Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of "blood and water".
Medical science would declare that as a sure sign of death from asphyxiation.
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Deborah Sextonposted 14 years ago
Paarsurrey is trying to convert everyone to the Muslim doctrine.

Instead of saying why it is a great religion. Paarsurrey only insults ours by putting it down and stating untrue things.

We don;t believe your doctrine Paarsurrey. The things your Quran teaches is evil. And it isn't an Ancient text, but was written in a time when people should know better.
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waynetposted 14 years ago
I know, it was Godzilla wasn't it??!
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  skipper112posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  no silly Godzilla's parents
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earnestshubposted 14 years ago
I can see it will in no way ad to this thread if I were to include the word of your god from the "good book" so I will refrain.
Suffice to say, condescending statements that make assumptions for others are a good clue to what is being worshipped in religion. It is self. You are one of the very fortunate saved souls. To be blind to the meaning impregnated in your own words becomes an art form in religion!
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ehaunposted 14 years ago
If it is true belief and true faith, it is NOT a religion but a relationship. Religion is full of rules and laws and only makes men subject to selfishness while squandering others with their tongue.

And if you do have a relationship then that is between God and you. That does not include putting other's beliefs down no matter if you are catholic, christian, muslim or atheist, etc.

Maybe instead of trying to get the splinter out of everyone else's eye, you should remove the beam in your own eye first.
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paarsurreyposted 14 years ago
Hi friends

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad sates further:

It is clear that the significance of the word Mal'un, viz. accursed, is so foul that it can never apply to any righteous person who entertains love of God in his heart. Alas! Christians did not ponder over the significance of a curse when they invented this belief; else, it were impossible for them to have used such a bad word for a righteous man like Jesus. Can we say that Jesus' heart was ever really estranged from God; that he had denied God, that he hated Him and had become His enemy?

Can we ever think that Jesus had ever felt in his heart that he was estranged from God, that he was an enemy of God, and that he was immersed in the darkness of unbelief and denial? If, then, Jesus had never been in such a state of mind, that his heart was always full of love and the light of Divine Knowledge, is it for you, wise people, to ponder whether we can ever say that, not one, but thousands of curses from God had descended upon the heart of Jesus with all their evil significance? Never. Then, how can we say that he was, God forbid, accursed?

It is a pity that once a man has given utterance to something, when he has taken his stand upon a particular belief, he is not inclined to give up that belief, however much the absurdity thereof be exposed. Desire to attain salvation, if grounded upon true foundations, is a praiseworthy thing, but where is the sense in having a desire for salvation which kills truth and which countenances, regarding a holy prophet arid a perfect man, the belief that he had as it were passed through a state in which he had been estranged from God, and in which, instead of unity of heart and unity of inclination, there had been produced a strangeness and aloofness, enmity and hatred; and, instead of light, darkness had surrounded his heart?

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/je … a/ch1.html

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Disappearingheadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So should we believe the Word of God or the ramblings of an Islamic heretic?
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Read both books. There is very little differences in your gods.
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  Disappearingheadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Don't be silly now, you know that's not true. Tuh.
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earnestshubposted 14 years ago
From the Bible.

Death for Blasphemy

One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)

Kill False Prophets

1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)

2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)

Infidels and Gays Should Die

So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)

I can find you a similar list from the quoran if you like.
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  Disappearingheadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The law was given to a people wandering in the desert who had not been a nation. From God's perspective there was a requirement for harsh punishment to ensure that these people did not imitate the practices of the surrounding nations. He desired a nation that would call Him God and remain faithful only to Him.
  
  Nevertheless that law was imperfect as it still did not deal with the human condition. The law was in place only until the world was ready to recieve His Son as a sacrifice for Sin. Jesus fullfilled the law in Himself. So now what is required is not slavish obedience to an imperfect law which cannnot change a man on the inside, but to follow Christ. By following Him we are changed in our inner nature. It is because God is loving and merciful that Christ was given to us.
  
  Go has not changed, but the manner in which He dealt with humanity did. Those former laws were required for those people for those times, until the Christ was sent.
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Murder, mayhem, destruction... the things god does best to ensure indoctrination, obedience and worship to him and only him. Sounds about right.
  
  Religions destroy the human condition.
  
  Ah, the contradictions never end. "Slavish obedience to an imperfect law" - which was supposed to be the "word of god" but for some reason, it was "slavish obedience" by the very same god.
  
  And, now that we understand those were all just myths and superstitions, we have given up on them in favor of helping mankind and humanity rather than worshiping myths.
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Funny you chose this version, it's a very modern version and we must be careful to quote what is contextual, rather than what suits our purpose... you seem to have chose one which presents God as you see Him, but the broad sweep of bibles all say slightly differently, lets take a look....
  
  The KJV (my personal choice) says:
  
  28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
  
  29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
  
  30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
  
  31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
  
  32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
  
  The New KJV has a slight change, but stays the same in emphasis:
  
  28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[a] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
  
  The Amplified...
  
  28And so, since they did not see fit to acknowledge God or approve of Him or consider Him worth the knowing, God gave them over to a base and condemned mind to do things not proper or decent but loathsome,
  
  29Until they were filled (permeated and saturated) with every kind of unrighteousness, iniquity, grasping and covetous greed, and malice. [They were] full of envy and jealousy, murder, strife, deceit and treachery, ill will and cruel ways. [They were] secret backbiters and gossipers,
  
  30Slanderers, hateful to and hating God, full of insolence, arrogance, [and] boasting; inventors of new forms of evil, disobedient and undutiful to parents.
  
  31[They were] without understanding, conscienceless and faithless, heartless and loveless [and] merciless.
  
  32Though they are fully aware of God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them themselves but approve and applaud others who practice them
  
  and so on it goes, three to one against your selected or chose version...
  
  I always think we need to read a variety of versions to be sure that we are presenting an accurate version of scripture, so that we can be sure that we are not 'Slanderers, hateful to and hating God, full of insolence, arrogance, [and] boasting'
  
  Of course IF we are NOT GUILTY of these things, we still die in any case, but these verses say WHEN we die, and are judged by Christ, we will have no excuse, we will have DESERVED to die in our 'base and condemned mind to do things not proper or decent but loathsome' - and that's what is meant here, you seem to have been a mite too eager to show God of as you see Him, rather than as He is.
  
  Get a life, preferably an eternal one.
  
  John
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And the difference is what? Do you want to go through the whole IT like this? I reckon you would find the psychosis runs around equal in most versions.
  
  As for getting a life, not a borrowed life with the permission of a sky fairy's writings scratched on rock by some by psychotic goat herders I hope!
  I have a fine life, thanks for asking.
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Just correcting bad interpretations... always been a problem in scripture!
  
  Folk can get the wrong idea about Christ and God if scripture is used out of context.
  
  Delighted you have a good life, may you enjoy it fully and for many years to come.
  
  John
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  Bruce_Leiterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Earnestshub, you can use the Bible the way you want to. However, the quotes from the Old Testament are the national law of Israel, God's nation. In the New Testament the international church superseded and included Old Testament Israel, the external form of whose law has been done away by Jesus' death on the cross (Colossians 2). The forms of those laws are no longer in effect, though they still describe sins that Christians must avoid.
  
  The Romans passage must, again, be taken in context. Paul in Romans 1:18--3:20 makes the case that all humans are guilty because of their imperfections, listed to describe non-Jews in chapter one and Jews in chapter two and for both in chapter three. You and I, according to prophet Paul, are deserving of God the Judge's verdict of "guilty," but Jesus died on the cross to take our guilt on himself as the perfect secrifice and rose from the dead to give believers his victory of life forever (Romans 3:21-25).
  
  When you quote the Bible, earnestshub, at least take into consideration the immediate context and the teaching of the Bible as a whole that helps us understand it.
  
  Thanks, earnestshub, for your contribution to our discussion. I apologize that I was so long in replying. I was writing my second book.
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I would like to point out that only a psychotic god would make the statements in the OT.
  
  Even if your jesus changed the laws of his father, the fact remains that the words in the OT are those of a psychopath.
  
  The other point I would like to make is that jesus made no sacrifice at all according to the whole story.
  
  Jesus knew in advance that he would be resurrected.
  
  Creating a psychotic entity and then nullifying it's psychosis by writing his son in as the "saviour" who saves us from his own father from the rest of the same book is mind bogglingly stupid in my view.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with you; if Jesus knew beforehand that he would resurrect; then what is the sacrifice of which the Christian speak?
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  Dave Barnettposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The cleansing blood. PAY ATTENTION! Mainstream christians believe that denying any portion of the texts puts the denier in Satan's camp, and say "Repent, you sinner, for the time of judgement is at your very doorstep!"
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  skipper112posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  yes I agree 'resurrect' you know the truth paar to 'ressurrect' first you must be dead, now you know the truth, JESUS DIED ON THE CROSS YOU ADMIT THIS FACT AT LAST
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  Numb1stunnaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  paarsurrey,
  Even you admitted that "Jesus knew beforehand that he would resurrect". In order to resurrect, you have to be dead. So, he did died, then rose again. Thanks for finally admitting that. The sacrifice is that Jesus DID not have to die for anyone, but He still did. Would you die for anyone so they have hope and live? Furthermore, would you die for anyone that you don't even know? I would not. That is the purpose, that He loved us UNCONDITIONALLY, like the father (He who does not love, does not know God, because God is love...1 John 4:8.) This proves that Jesus IS the same as the Father.
  
  Earnestb, Jesus didn't save us from the Father, He made us have ACCESS to the Father. In the times of Moses, they would have an intermediary between God and the people. But, Jesus CLEARED the way, so that we could go to the Father directly. That is why when He died in the cross, the veil of the temple was cut in half, as a sign.
  
  I am a Christian by the grace of God, through Jesus Christ
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  Numb1stunnaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  By admitting that Jesus knew beforehand that He would resurrect, you are acknowledging He had divine powers. No man can guess and know the future on its own understanding and capability. Especially since Jesus knew the past, the present, and the future. He knew the task He was given at that moment and He obediently completed it successfully.
  
  I am a Christian by the grace of God, through Jesus Christ
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  Numb1stunnaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  earnestshub, would you even do the smallest sacrifice to cut all of your facial hair for others?
  
  Nothing that we can ever do can compare to the sacrifice Jesus did. Someone's life is precious, so giving it up for someone else, especially an ungrateful person, would be a waste. But the act of even suffering for everyone, including your enemies and preaching about love, takes a lot of courage and love.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus did not say anything which superceded the teachings of Moses. Colossians 2 and Romans are not written by Jesus but by Paul, an enemy of Jesus, his true followers and his teachings.
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  exorterposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  if you do not know what you are talking about, why say it.
  show us where paul is an enemy of Jesus in the Bible
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Paul admits it in Acts.
  
  As far as the appointment of Messengers/ Prophets/ is concerned; it is the sole discretion of God Allah YHWH and Jesus had no authority to appoint one; and it was not in place for Paul and Joseph Smith.
  
  Even Jesus did not appoint Paul; he never mentioned to the twelve that after crucifixion; Paul, who was hitherto an enemy of Jesus, would convert and become his successor/epistle/Apostel.
  
  The Christians should side with Jesus instead of siding with Paul and Joseph Smith.
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I agree that we should first understand what Jesus said before we try to intermingle what we think that Paul said.
  
  When we first understand the words written in red... we will get a different understanding of Pauls message.
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skye2dayposted 14 years ago
I do not know what book you learn from but it is not TRUE.
The BIBLE is true and twisting words in scripture is of the enemy. Christ is the way, truth and life. He is the only way to the Father. No one has nor will they ever in all of time prove the Bible to be false. Man tries to turn scripture for his own agenda. It does not work. It will never work. May God help you sir. I would really check out the Word before writing such nonsense. One day EVERY knee will bow and know Jesus Crist is Lord. In His name.
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I read your bible and am horrified by what I found there and that automatically makes me your enemy?
  
  I'm sure believers who believe the bible to be the word of their god would never accept it to be false, even when it's been shown to be false.
  
  Thank you for the biblical threats of eternal damnation and hellfire. That would be the way of Christ, correct?
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  Numb1stunnaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The way of Christ is love, and eternal life. He gave His life to save those who were lost. Although, He is a loving God, but "For our God is a consuming fire" - Hebrews 12:29. I think there is a limit to God's patience and love. Unfortunately, man continue being ungrateful by denying the existence of the being that created them. It happened in the times of Noah, and it will happen again. But, God is so loving that He keeps giving chance, after chance, after chance.
  I don't understand what you found in the bible that horrified you? The bible teaches us about love, joy, happiness, and every thing that will give life to our souls. I'm kind of confused how you are horrified about good things.
  
  I am a Christian saved by the grace of God, through Jesus Christ
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Twenty One Daysposted 14 years ago
respondent to the post regarding the 'enemy' and the bible:

the enemy never twisted the scripture, he used the exact scripture to attempt and sway Y`shua to his way of thinking/is methods/ideology. It should be clarified that the use of quoting scripture is not necessary, nor invokes any power of the Spirit. And since the word does not empower itself (testify on its own behalf), the written texts are only valid for inspiration and learning only through empowerment of the Spirit, not any spirit.

-James
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  Numb1stunnaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  James,
  The enemy is "the father of all lies". So, it would be beneficial to him to lie to humanity through twisting things to confuse them. He did lie and confused Eve when he talked her into eating the apple. God's plan is the same, love and salvation. Unfortunately, men (manipulated by the enemy) keep twisting things to drag people away from the truth.
  
  I am a Christian saved by the grace of God, through Jesus Christ
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ShadowKing!posted 14 years ago
Here's a fact being missed. A number of reputed theologians agree & have verified that the Book of Matthew was written BY Matthew. Hundreds of years later, scholars & Matthew all concur that Matthew was an EYEWITNESS to the life, times, & death of Jesus. So there were eyewitnesses (confirmed by "learned persons" from AD 1 to AD 2010) that SAW Jesus die.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Nonsense. Please add proof or a link to this information if you are going to make nonsensical claims such as this. It is widely accepted that the Gospel of Mathew was written in Greek some considerable time after the alleged death of the person now being called Jesus.
  
  Why even make such false claims?
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend ShadowKing
  
  Gospel were not written by Matthew, Mark, John and Luke but written by anonymous writers and named later after Matthew Mark, John and Luke; they never witnessed the events .
  
  Please read carefully from the Catholic Encylopedia:
  
  Titles of the gospels
  
  The first four historical books of the New Testament are supplied with titles (Euaggelion kata Matthaion, Euaggelion kata Markon, etc.), which, however ancient, do not go back to the respective authors of those sacred writings.
  
  The Canon of Muratori, Clement of Alexandria, and St. Irenæus bear distinct witness to the existence of those headings in the latter part of the second century of our era. Indeed, the manner in which Clement (Stromata I.21), and St. Irenæus (Against Heresies III.11.7) employ them implies that, at that early date, our present titles to the Gospels had been in current use for some considerable time.
  
  Hence, it may be inferred that they were prefixed to the evangelical narratives as early as the first part of that same century. That, however, they do not go back to the first century of the Christian era, or at least that they are not original, is a position generally held at the present day. It is felt that since they are similar for the four Gospels, although the same Gospels were composed at some interval from each other, those titles were not framed, and consequently not prefixed to each individual narrative, before the collection of the four Gospels was actually made.
  
  Besides, as well pointed out by Prof. Bacon, "the historical books of the New Testament differ from its apocalyptic and epistolary literature, as those of the Old Testament differ from its prophecy, in being invariably anonymous, and for the same reason. Prophecies whether in the earlier or in the later sense, and letters, to have authority, must be referable to some individual; the greater his name, the better. But history was regarded as a common possession. Its facts spoke for themselves.
  
  Only as the springs of common recollection began to dwindle, and marked differences to appear between the well-informed and accurate Gospels and the untrustworthy . . . did it become worth while for the Christian teacher or apologist to specify whether the given representation of the current tradition was 'according to' this or that special compiler, and to state his qualifications". It thus appears that the present titles of the Gospels are not traceable to the Evangelists themselves.
  
  http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06655b.htm
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  skipper112posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  oh sorry I think you are not a peacefull MUSLIM and Islam will not let you go to Mecca you are BANNED
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EnglishMposted 14 years ago
Jesus said, "Keep on asking, and it will be given to you; keep on seeking, and you will find; keep on knocking, and it will be opened to you."
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  2,00 years of knocking. No answer. Not even one, from billions of prayers a day.
  
  A new god seems to be needed, the skinny guy is dead apparently.
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  EnglishMposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  My interpretation of asking, seeking and knocking means research and study.
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  Numb1stunnaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, my prayers are ALWAYS being answered. So, I keep knocking and keep finding. Jesus is always there for me, I don't need anyone else. And don't worry Ernesthub, He is at the door and will be coming soon for the people that await Him. He hasn't came yet because He is still waiting for people like you to have a chance at eternal life.
  
  I am a Christian saved by the grace of God, through Jesus Christ
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friends
  
  I think there is wisdom in it. One should keep the zeal of the research and struggle; it is the essence of life.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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CYBERSUPEposted 14 years ago
You must be kidding. In any event you will have very hard time convincing me.
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  EnglishMposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Not in context, there's a word missing, and it makes no sense.
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Diane Insideposted 14 years ago
phfffshh. Yeah Right....
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  2,000 years no show, no help.
  Why would you still think the bible was anything but a lot of old stories retold. The history is there to support all these stories starting back with the son-god.
  
  Same old crap. We pray, the sun comes up, we pray, it goes down.
  
  The biblical nonsense should have disappeared once the capacity to understand and know the subconscious emerged, but indoctrinated people never try to know anything outside their beliefs.
  Too afraid they won't understand the science maybe?
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  EnglishMposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That last paragraph sounds familiar, earnestshub.
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  Numb1stunnaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You must be speaking about yourself, right earnestshub? Hypocrisy at it's finest. The bible is the biggest selling book in history, Jesus is the most famous historical figure in history, and 99%, if not all, of the prophesies in the bible have already taken place, was this all a coincidence? I doubt man alone can come up with their own conclusions.
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Joy56posted 14 years ago
I am so offended Earnesthub.... you mock god, that is so sad, as indeed you are, you waste so much time on these threads, get a life.
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china manposted 14 years ago
O !! this is where the fight is

I recently met some very nice Indian business people who, were moaning on about how the new laws had freed their bonded workers who can now go and get work anywhere !! I was really shocked to hear that now the tea plantation owners had to pay wages as well as give these people shelter AND feed them, and their kids as well, but hey that was ok because the kids were already bonded as security on the debt the workers owed their bosses.

Thing is - they were all called Thomas and came from the South of India where almost all the upper crust are called Thomas. This is because this is where the original - yes the original - 'doubting Thomas' went to spread the word and the Thomas's are all Christians. I asked them about the BOOK and these guys said they had their own that Thomas gave them. Is this all included in those other 'the BOOKs' I wonder. People on here seem well informed - is there a Thomas section in your BOOK ?
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  Joy56posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thomas The Tank Engine, is really worth reading, and if you watch it on t.v. Ringo Star reads the stories, isn't that amazing. Earnesthub's grandchildren will probably like that.
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  china manposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I lived in Wales for a few years - and kids - so don't tell me about Thomas the b****y Tank Engine, especially in Welsh !!!!!!!
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  Joy56posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  ooooh i wish i could live in Wales, i would love that.
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thenomidianposted 14 years ago
the problem , it's not easy for many christians to accept ,beacuse thier salvation hangs up on jesus death .
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Christians don't want to see Jesus alive; only because they cannot leave sins and Paul had made them believe that killing Jesus is essential for them. Alas! What enemy in Paul Jesus had?
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  skipper112posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  prove your words paar, you do not know what a Christian thinks
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thenomidianposted 14 years ago
jesus said to the jews "..an evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign (miracle) be given to it, but the sign (miracle) of the prophet JONAH ( matthew 12:39)
JONAH SAID : "take me up,and cast me forth into the sea,so shall the sea be calm for you,for i know that for my sake this great tempest is upon you ." the question here , Was jonah dead or alive when he was thrown into the raging sea ? reply HE WAS ALIVE because when a man volunteers,none doesn't need to kill him before throwing him into sea .then the fish came and swallowed him, WAS TOO ALIVE INTO THE FISH .JONAH PRAYS TO GOD INTO THE BELLY OF FISH FOR HELP DURING 3 DAYS ,on th 3th day vomits him on the seashore .also he was ALIVE . ITS MIRACLE OF MIRACLES . all the jews and the christians and the muslims say and belive he was ALIVE .THEN JESUS WAS ALIVE ON THE CROSS AND TOO IN THE GRAVE DURING 3 DAYS AS HE MENTIONS IN ( matthew 12:40.) and ( matthew 12:39)...
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thenomidianposted 14 years ago
peace be on you all : ALLAH SAID CLEARLY ABOUT HIS GREAT PROPHET JESUS PBUH : * " That they said (in boast), "We killed Al-Masih 'Isa the son of Maryam, the Messenger of Allah"; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not".
jesus said ::" for as jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the fish ,so shall the son of man " matthew 12:40. it's one of his Prophecies, Indication of what will happen to him on the cross , jesus himself assured that he won't die on the cross ,more than that, the events that accompanied his Crucifixion, assured that jesus was alive on the cross , was alive in in the grave for 3 days as the prophet " jonah " who was alive into belly of the big fish.......
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1. 59
  skipper112posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  do you really belive this?
  reply report
50
paarsurreyposted 14 years ago
Among the testimonies of the Bible in support of Jesus' escape from death on the Cross is his journey to a far-off place, on which he started after coming out of the tomb. On the morning of Sunday he first met Mary Magdalene, who at once informed the disciples that Jesus was alive, but they did not believe it.

Then he was seen by two of the disciples when they were going out to the countryside; and last of all he appeared to the eleven when they were at their meal and censured them for their callousness and lack of faith. When two disciples of Jesus were going towards the hamlet called Emmaus which was at a distance of 3.75 miles from Jerusalem, Jesus met them; and when they were near that hamlet, Jesus went forward to part company with them, but they did not allow him to go, saying that that night they would be together.

He then dined with them, and all of them, along with Jesus, spent the night at the village named Emmaus. Now, to say that Jesus did all this with a spiritual body (which is supposed to be the nature of the body after death), which only the physical body was capable of doing, as, for example, eating and drinking, and sleeping, and making a long journey to Galilee which was at a distance of seventy miles from Jerusalem, is saying something impossible and quite against reason.

In spite of the fact that on account of individual bias the accounts of the gospels have differed, the texts as they are, nevertheless, clearly show that Jesus met his disciples in the ordinary mortal human body, and made a long journey on foot to Galilee; showed his wounds to the disciples, dined with them at night, and slept in their company.

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/je … a/ch1.html

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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1. 59
  skipper112posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  gee paar now I find another post from you, another lie more proof you follow the devil. Friends I found a post from paar were he places the Torah and Quran on equal footing,
  Paar are you a jewis / muslim?
  Do you really belive jesus did not die on the cross?
  Bad news paar NO ONE CAME OFF THE CROSS ALIVE!!!!
  Paar if you are a Muslim how come you are BANNED from going to MECCA?
  Explain how come a man that could not read or write, gave the world the Quran, remembered by many writen by many BUT only after his death?
  Hoe come Mohammed can have over 12 wivesm but you as a Muslin can only have four wives? ( double standards or Mohammed was verry good in bed)
  I know Muslims MUST LIE and try to PROVE JUSUS did not die on the cross, because by Jesus dieing on the CROSS, then Islam cannot be true, can it?
  AS LONG AS IT IS PROVEN JESUS DIED ON THE CROSS ISLAM CANNOT BE A TRUE FAITH
  Thai is what I belive NO ONE CAME OFF THE CROSS ALIVE
  reply report
  59
  skipper112posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  POST NOW CLOSED AS PAAR WILL NOT ANSWER QUESTIONS THEREFORE NO DEBATE HENCE NO THUTH SO PAAR HIDES AGAIN!!
  GO START A NEW POST PAAR
  reply report

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Jesus did not die on Cross; from Bible

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