Will homosexuals go to heaven or hell when they die?

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Sherlock221bposted 12 years ago
I never understand why being gay is described as a "lifestyle." It is in fact a sexual orientation. It is possible to live an entirely celibate life, and have no connection with "gay culture" yet still be gay. Describing homosexuality as a lifestyle is as logical as describing being left-handed as a lifestyle, being a woman as a lifestyle, being black as a lifestyle. Homosexuality is not an act, but a biological reality of the brain. If a straight person were to live a celibate single life, they would still be straight. Just as a person who has been tortured to try and make them right-handed, as used to happen, because it was until relatively recently believed that being left-handed was an indication of working for the devil, will still be left-handed, no matter what holy terrors, the religious inflict upon them.
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  DzyMsLizzyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  YEP!
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That's true. It comes from a desired belief that being gay is a choice, and also from a lack of familiarity with gay & lesbian diversity.
  
  Ignoring what observable evidence has said over and over again, and sticking with their own fantastical narrative, is what these people need to reconcile what their interpretation of religion is telling them.
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Stump Parrishposted 12 years ago
habee, I was at first confused by your comment and then it hit me. In response I offer this...what does an elephant and a schoolbus have in common? They are both the same color except for the elephant. Thanks for allowing me to finally make sense of this entire conversation, peace
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  habeeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Stump, that's true only if it's an African elephant.
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Stump Parrishposted 12 years ago
I assume you are referring to reparatative therapy, right Eagle. The kind that Bachmann's husband bilks medicare and medicaid out over a hundred thousand dollars a year practicing? , Guess what...In 2007 the American Psychological Association assembled a task force to study the effectiveness of reparative therapy. This task force looked at 83 studies conducted from 1960 to 2007. The conclusion reached was that there was little evidence that suggested human sexuality could be changed and that attempting to do so could cause depression and attempts of suicide. Based on these findings the APA voted deny the validity of reparative therapy by a margin of 125 to 4
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Jeramiposted 12 years ago
Just asking a question and not making a statement.

Should all natural tendancies or orientations that everyone has be followed and if not? Where should we draw the line between acceptable and Not.

And if a line is ever to be drawn? Who has that right?

Who's pencil should be used. I think a limit should establisheds for how often that person be allowed to exersise that right.

God forbid that pencil fall into the wrong hands.

And how many pencils should be going at the same time?

I'm getting a headache thinkin about that.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If it doesn't actually hurt another person (or animal, or property, or the environment, or anything else observable in the real world), then you shouldn't forbid it.
  
  If you believe that it offends God or anything else that is unobservable, then that is your opinion; feel free to not do it yourself, but you shouldn't try to restrict the freedoms of others.
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  calpol25posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with you there, Abraham Lincoln wrote " Those who deny freedom to others , deserve it not for themselves." I live by that quote and have never judged or condemned any one, for it would make me no better than a zealot.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I agree and would not restrict anyones freedom( unless it encroached on mine-but sure it should work both ways.
  
  All part of respect.
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Stump Parrishposted 12 years ago
The problem might come from the practice christians have at becoming something they other than what they were born as. No one is born a christian, everyone is born an atheist. Religion is a chioce and they could be assuming every thing in life is. If people stayed who and what they were born as, we wouldn't be having these problems. Christianity is a choice, homosexuality isn't.
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  calpol25posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly right stump, I did not wake up one day and decide to be gay, I was born that way. But I did have the choice of religion and tried to go down that road, but only met a wall of hatred and bigotry...
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Stump Parrishposted 12 years ago
cal, dont be so sure, according to my understanding of what's in the bible, very few christians are going to get into heaven. That means they will be screwing hell up for the rest of us. It will be fun to watchem try and figure out what went wrong.
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  calpol25posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah thats gonna be so fun to watch too, we can sit and have a laugh with everyone else because lets face it if all the gay people are going to hell, then half of the television greats of comedy etc will be there. Meanwhile the religious nuts are walking around the pit all confused, its gonna be the best time ever.
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  calpol25posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Be sure to bring plenty popcorn who needs television?
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I guess its ok for Gay people to make fun of Christians and laugh at them going to hell?
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  calpol25posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Actually were not laughing at Christians because a true christian does not judge and is acceptant of all persons and would not expect them to change who they are, were laughing at those misguided people who believe themselves to be christian, but preach hatred and prejudice, as well as commit the worst sin of all using the bible as a false idol and a weapon.
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Stump Parrishposted 12 years ago
Peace everyone, enjoyed it but I need to sign off for awhile. cal, check out the hub I mentioned in my status update, I think you'll enjoy it. Later.
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  calpol25posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Will do Stump take care
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Kathleen Jacobsenposted 12 years ago
Teachings From The Pleiades
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGiPWtpy … re=related

Start with One
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creationmomposted 12 years ago
The Bible also condemns liars and thieves. It is not whether or not a person is a homosexual that will get him/her into Heaven, it is whether or not that person has accepted Jesus as their savior. If they truly accept Him as savior, (yes, they can be forgiven) He will also become their Lord, and begin to change their heart to make them more like Himself. They will turn from their lying, stealing, homosexuality, etc. Their sin will always have some sort of attraction to them, but with God's help they can keep from it.

Just like liars and thieves, etc., homosexuals who accept Christ as savior will go to Heaven when they die.
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Sherlock221bposted 12 years ago
When Jesus concluded His message, He told His listeners that if they were to enter into His kingdom, they must “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it” (Matthew 7:13-14).

I wonder why, as Jesus explains that only a few will make it to heaven, that all Christians assume that their place at the right-hand of the Father is assured?
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rebekahELLEposted 12 years ago
oh, do I miss the forum filter, but after reading through some of these posts, I can't help but wonder how many of those who have posted with seemingly 'righteous' answers live a 'righteous' life.

What kind of superior, loving being decides who is the worst offender? Is the straight, religious man in the front pew who cheats on his wife and lied under oath, and stole money from his clients to take lavish 'business' trips more 'heaven' worthy than the homosexual Christian man who operates his business with honesty, gives to charities and helps those in need build affordable homes for their families?

Does God say, 'oops, sorry, I see you're a homosexual, no making Jesus your lord. What was I thinking?? I know, I know, I really do love everybody, except ...'
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  habeeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ditto!
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  calpol25posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly right Rebekah, who has the right to judge? and what god persecutes?
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Instigatorposted 12 years ago
Considering there is no heaven or hell, I say neither. Religion is just a form to control the masses from actually living life to its fullest potential. Sure, I can see that the thought of nothing being after this life is scary to most, but to invent some all powerful "Father figure" that punishes us for doing such actions that he himself put on this earth. Of course there is the whole man made sins such as synthesized drugs, and then of course alcohol that some one could counter my previous statement with but then why would god put such ingredients and give us the intelligence to put two and two together if he did not want us to experience them? Life is one big ride, might as well get as many thrills out of it before it comes to an end? Why waste what precious time we have following blindly the words written by men thousands of years ago? That in fact keep changing. I say live and let live if no harm comes to anyone why should I be punished?
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Jeramiposted 12 years ago
I too enjoy watching reactions of others.
It is much easier to see the dirt on the back side of someone elses knees thn it is to see the dirt on the back side of my own.

I have noticed that when "I" am bothered with the "sins" of another, and if I am going to be honest with mysel, something within myself is exposed which needs some lever of correction.

I'm not saying that any "sin" is OK or not OK.

I do know that when I am focused upon YOUR sins, I am not focused upon my own. Time ill spent.
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jtylerposted 12 years ago
The way I think about it, it would be wrong for God to deny passage to heaven because someone is homosexual. I wrote a hub recently, but it basically said that platonic love is not a sin but sexual love is. However, other people sin, and in some cases, sin much worse, and they will still likely go to heaven, so I believe that they will go to heaven.
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Cherayposted 12 years ago
They will go to the same place that the unwed couple with two children are going to go. And at the rate these priest's are moving they'll be following closely behind. No one person is perfect. NO ONE!! How about this. Homosexuals should be respected simply for honoring the institution of marriage. The individuals who sit in church every week and still sin like it's the hottest thing since sliced bread should be the fearful ones. Please Believe It! Oh P.S The earth is hell, believe it or not. WE can only pray that when the ish hits the an we are not left here to suffer. Hell on earth. So how many people can say that if the Higher Power came and swooped down upon us we would be going to heaven?? I'll be the first to admit that I am not ready. I think we should stop focusing on the homosexuals and keep the focus on our shortcomings. I dare someone to say they don't come up short on anything. Hocus Pocus Keep The Focus.
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Sherlock221bposted 12 years ago
I have come to the conclusion that people cannot change their minds. Just as it is not possible for a gay person to become straight or a straight person to become gay, so too, it is not possible for someone who is homophobic to become accepting of people. Maybe when someone gets past a certain age, whatever prejudices they have will remain with them always, and therefore we should all agree to disagree. It should however be a priority of those responsible for education to ensure the next generation is taught not to have such prejudices. Hopefully then in time, homophobia will be viewed in the same way racism is now. I have previously reacted with anger to some of the Christian fundamentalists on here, but realise that life is too short to be arguing with people I don't even know online, who are on the other side of the world. And no amount of arguing will produce a change in those who don't want to change, so maybe they should be allowed their prejudices, as long as they don't lead them to cause physical harm to anyone.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with your statement,and its unfortunate at times that some have chosen to read more into my posts than what I actually wrote.
  
  Sure I have my beliefs ,but included in that is my ability to accept everyone's right to live as they so choose,irregardless of what I think!
  
  Sometimes I hear in responses here ,that because I think a certain way ,that must also mean I believe in mocking ,critisizing and cursing all homosexuals.In a nutshell,I hate ALL violence.
  
  Sadly some people stereotype, but just as all Homosexual do not think all the same way -neither do all Christians.
  
  Disappointing that it becomes a 'them ' and 'us' situation.
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  cooldadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  @Eaglekiwi: Very good points. When I create a forum or post a comment, I do so in the hopes of creating a good, meaningful conversation regardless of my personal beliefs. I've learned to be empathetic before I rush to judgement. I started this specific forum because I am intrigued about how religion treats homosexuals. And after starting this forum, I am still intrigued and not even close to finding an answer. Mainly because it seems there are several different interpretations about this topic.
  
  I'm thinking maybe homosexuals will end up in "limbo" until all the believers can figure out what to do with them.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks cooldad.
  
  When you think about it ,its great to hear another persons perspective on any topic,but at the end of the day ,that is what it is -perspective.
  
  For many of us ,we believe in an set of beliefs/ideals because we at least understand a good part of how it impacts on our lives ,be in personal or spiritual.
  
  It doesnt make us better or any less than anyone else ,it just means we are all possibly trying to understand where and what our purpose is ,either temporarily or permanantly.
  
  Maybe how God does view us is more important than we let on,or why else do we feel driven to click,type and post, then come back and read some more.
  
  Curious bunch arn't we.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it." - Max Planck
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Editor and Chiefposted 12 years ago
If God is the creator of all things, then God created sin. Otherwise she did not create all things. If sin is outside the realm of God's will, then God is not all powerful. God knows all that ever was and all that ever shall be. We are merely meat puppets. If this is not true then God is not omnipotent and omniscient. I guess I can live with that.
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SirDentposted 12 years ago
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
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Jeramiposted 12 years ago
getitrite wrote:
Leviticus 20:13~~If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
(KJV)

====== ====

ME...
I have used the scenario of the amusement park on a number of occasions.
It is like God lets us come here to the amusement park, and he says we must behave such-and-such way. If we break some of these rules we are going to be expelled fron the park and come home.

YEP! dieing is like leaving or being expelled from this grand amusement park, and being sent back home.
This does not say anyone burns in hell just because we are expelled from school.

Some people get carried away in their own understanding.

Maybe Me too?
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giopskiposted 12 years ago
Can homosexuals go to heaven? The Church is very open at welcoming homosexuals in the community. In fact, there are ministries that respond to their particular needs as it is open to those who underwent abortion, etc. The fact that the Church does this is a gesture of acknowledging that they are still part and member of the community. We treat them as human beings as they truly are. What the Church condemns, however, is the sexual act that is apt reserved only for couples who are committed to married life. The ministries are there in order to educate them and help them reach a point of conversion, whereby they give up engaging in a sexual act even if they remain to be homosexual.
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  must65gtposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If one were to read my first posting, I said a very similar statement. I have friends who are practicing homosexuals; they understand my feelings about it. But it's a choice they made and I make no equivocations about my stance. If some believe because I simply state something written in the bible, that I am passing judgement, so be it. I only offered my opinion in answering the original question. If extracting partial sentences from what I have written will help them feel better about themself; in an effort to devalue my words, go for it. It will not change my stance or hurt my feelings. God is, God said, weather others choose to believe it, will not change anything. And with respects to heaven or hell, I believe that separation from God as in eternal darkness, would be the most difficult thing to face.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I understood you.
  
  It seems if people want to use a reference to support their statement ,thats fine if its Wikipedia ,or another website,but try using the Bible and whoaaaaa ...the brakes go on ,and the car does a U-turn
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The problem for many of us is the inconsistent application of the Bible or the convenient reading/interpretation of them.
  
  If Christians actually practiced Christianity as Christ instructed, very few would take issue with them. Sadly, too few Christians do.
  
  ""I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. If Christians would really live according to the teachings of Christ, as found in the Bible, all of India would be Christian today." - Mahatma Gandhi
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Everything ,and everyone has a positive and negative.
  
  It would be good for people to remember that Christians are human first, though I do take your point that some are even lousy at doing just that!
  
  On the positive side there are thousands of Christians who we seldom hear about ,who go about Gods business out of the limelight ,their humility and strength another example of Gods image.
  
  These people seldom make the 6 o'clock news,just not enough drama for the media's appetite.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You are absolutely right. The problem is the relative volume. The Christianists (like Islamists) are much noisier and obnoxious than are Christians (and Muslims).
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  Woman Of Courageposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Lol, Kiwi you hit the nail right on the mark. It happens all the time.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And this is the crux of the problem. Christianists desperately want to believe homosexuality is a "lifestyle" and a choice.
  
  "Practicing homosexual" is akin to "practicing Chinese" - it makes no sense. You either are or you're not.
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  calpol25posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I agree, there is no rehearsal to being gay,......
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to cast a stone."
  
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  Woman Of Courageposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I understood you also. A person is not judgemental or hateful when stating something written in the bible. God bless you must65
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  They most certainly are if the bible quotes are judgemental and hateful and are directed at others.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The bible quotes are not judgemental and hateful. That's the point I'm making. Jesus offers loves love and forgiveness.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I was looking for a picture of a can of worms being opened, but couldn't find one.
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  DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  here is a link to one
  
  http://speakout.crnc.org/blog/2010/12/1 … -Worms.jpg
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  LOL! Perfect!
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  @W.O.C
  
  Scripture is for edifying and instruction.
  
  Gods handbook for life.
  
  On a side note-the self help industry has /is making billions of dollars ,telling people how to improve their lives.
  Like clouds they promise rain,but never do deliver.
  
  People put their trust in that.
  
  And yet here we have the King of Kings offering love,redemption and eternity for free.
  
  Go figure huh
  
  Have a great week-end
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  Woman Of Courageposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  King of Kings forever and ever! In God we trust, it's right on the money. Thanks! Have a great weekend also Kiwi.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But the whole point of this discussion is that Homosexuals (generalising) beleive it is their God given right to be there in the first place. Certainly as much as anyone else.
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A Troubled Manposted 12 years ago
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Rosa Harrisposted 12 years ago
The Bible say's all sins are forgivable except sinning against the Holy Spirit. That is the only thing you can not be forgave of. I'm not sure which chapter it is but you can find it.
Also, I'd like to address your question. Do homosexuals have any chance of getting into heaven? To be honest with you my personal guess would be no, that is if he or she has not repented of their sins and refrained from homosexuality. In other words....you just can't keep sinning and then later ask for God to forgive you, then turn around and sin the same sin again! It just don't work like that.
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  cindi hposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  People CHOOSE to sin. Homosexuals DO NOT CHOOSE this lifestyle, it is in their DNA.
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  sonfollowersposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  There doesn't appear to be anything that concretely says that tihs is the case. There have been recent studies that suggest that there may be a link to DNA but the studies were ultimately not conclusive. While studies have shown that there could potentially be a link with male homosexuals, no patterns have emerged at all in the case of lesbians despite best efforts. No gay gene has been found on either side.
  
  If you're going to use science as the basis for arguments, lets present the findings without overcompensating to make them sound more definitive than they actually are. You believe in something which has evidence but no proof. I believe in something which has evidence but no proof (at least none that you would acknowledge). For both of us it boils down to faith.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If no one but you can acknowledge your evidence, then it isn't evidence at all, it's just your personal assertion.
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  sonfollowersposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I said you probably wouldn't acknowledge the proof (not the evidence). Evidence is evidence. Even if some did choose not to acknowledge it, it's pretty irrelevant. I'm sure you would say the same thing about the evidence you are invested in. I do my best to look at the evidence on both sides. Do you do that?
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Proofs are in mathematics. Evidence is what we use for the real world.
  
  I only look at evidence, there is nothing else to look at. There is no evidence on both sides.
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  sonfollowersposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You're arguing semantics and creating a smoke screen. You haven't addressed the actual point at all (DNA and homosexuality) which is what my post was about. No gay gene has been found for either males or females and no studies so far have shown that there is even a trace of evidence for a hereditary cause for homosexuality in females. The evidence used to show this in males is still vague and inconclusive. This idea is not a slam dunk as people want to describe it. Do you have conflicting data at your disposal?
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You're right. There seems to be a biological basis for it but scientists haven't isolated exactly what that is yet. It seems to be pointing to epigenetics, not a particular gay gene.
  
  But the fact that we haven't unlocked the biological basis for homosexuality doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
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  sonfollowersposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I never said it couldn't exist. I was disagreeing with cindi h who claimed that homosexual DNA is a fact. My point is that the jury is still out about whether homosexuality is determined by genetics or environment or both. To say that this question has been unequivocably answered by science further leads to confusion. I think people use science as their religion and they try to make it fit what they believe rather than believing what it says. I believe that the Bible and real science peacefully coexist, especially when we don't grandstand and turns assumptions into facts. You're free to disagree. I'm simply making an argument.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed with you there. The issue comes up for those who don't believe there is a biological (whether genetic or environmentally-induced) basis, but rather that it is simply a choice...because they want to believe it's a choice. Tellingly, none of them are actually gay that bother arguing something so ridiculous.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You don't make an argument that science and the Bible can peacefully coexist. If it turns out that homosexuality can be traced back to genetics and the Bible states it is a sin worthy of eternal damnation, how is that peaceful coexistence?
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  sonfollowersposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You've already made the assumption that homosexuality can be traced back to genetics. Because of that, you've decided that my statement is faulty in light of your assumption. Your first statement was that I'm wrong already, but then your second one started with the word "if" because you recognize that your assumption has not been validated yet. Let's hold that thought until the data is there to support your argument. Then we can go from there..
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You are overlooking a perfectly valid point. By your arguments, you prove that you don't believe that they could peacefully coexist and have no desire to attempt to allow them to as far as this issue is concerned.
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  sonfollowersposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I simply prefer to stand on my bucket of beliefs until evidence comes along to push me off of it. I'm certain there's no harm in that. Why would I entertain a what-if scenario that I don't believe will come true? If I'm wrong then I'll re-evaluate then. For now, I'll stay where I am until the data causes me to do something different.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Not really, just clarifying your use of proof and evidence, they aren't the same thing.
  
  Are you asking if I have conflicting data that would show this to be a slam dunk case? No, of course not, there is more to know and understand.
  
  However, if I plug "genetic homosexuality evidence" into Google Scholar, I can find over 32,000 articles on the subject showing strong evidence. Your claim that there is not a trace of evidence is spurious.
  
  Do you believe the Biblical version to be a slam dunk case? Is that your argument?
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deja_channelposted 12 years ago
In God's eyes, sin is sin. One abomination is no greater than the other. But we can ALL obtain forgiveness through the confession of our sins and turning away from them. Homosexuals have the same opportunity to go to heaven as any other sinner. They simply have to do what every sinner who seeks that reward does, repent and change.
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  earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Which god would that be?
  
  I assume you are referring to the god of the OT?
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SirDentposted 12 years ago
Homosexual or not, we all must come to God the same way.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Psalms 34:18 The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
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A.S.K.Preacherposted 12 years ago
A sin is a sin is a sin. We all deserve death. But because Jesus, the only one who fulfilled the law, (Matthew 5:17) came as the required sacrifice so that ALL who come to Him would be saved. Romans 1:26-32 gives a partial list of sins God hates. There is no distinction between a little sin or a big sin. God hates all sin. The Ten Commandments were given so that we would know what sin is.
Judgment is God's. We cannot know what is going on in a persons mind or heart, the seat of repentance.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Matthew was written by an anonymous author long after the supposed life of Jesus. He plagiarized the anonymous author of Mark and added a few goodies to liven up the tale.
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  A.S.K.Preacherposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Really. Were you there to witness this? Whose authority? Why is their word better than the Bible?
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  DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Take a class on the NT. The Professor (normally a Dr.) will explain it with plenty of authority. As a matter of fact. Yale has video of both the NT and the OT courses available online for viewing.
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  A.S.K.Preacherposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  O.K. and How does this address whether gays are anymore sinful than others and whether they can be saved or not?
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  This addresses the INSIGNIFICANCE and fraud of your beliefs, therefore proving that there is no such thing as your silly God, and His silly, hateful rules.
  
  The 2000 year old book of myths has nothing to do with reality.
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  sonfollowersposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Okie dokie, ASK. Let me help you out here.
  
  The book of Matthew is not considered to have been written "long after" the life of Jesus. It's generally considered to have been writtem in the second half of the 1st century, between 50-70 AD or so. You're making it sound like it was written hundreds of years later. The NT books were written at a time when plenty of eye witnesses were around. It's true that it's unclear who the author was, but this isn't really all that relevant. Matthew is not a plagiarization of Mark's gospel. He added plenty of detail that is missing in any of the other gospels. Even if he did borrow some of his content (which I don't think is proven at all), it in no way invalidates the content.
  
  Also, scholars really don't deny that Jesus really lived and was crucified by the Romans. Even well known Roman historian Tacitus documents the validity of these events in his writings.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That is old debunked news. You realize he wasn't even born until 56AD and his so-called evidence of Jesus was written in his Annals in 116AD?
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  sonfollowersposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Are you talking about the author or Tacitus? I'm assuming Tacitus. If so, that's a pretty weak argument. When Tacitus wrote it is irrelevant. He is a secular Roman historian who had no ties to the Christian church who corroborated the events surrounding Jesus' life and death. It doesn't matter whether or not he was an eye witness. He would have gotten his information from Roman sources rather than gospel writers.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What Roman sources, exactly? There are none that will confirm Christ existed or that the trial and crucifixion of a Christ occurred.
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  sonfollowersposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Cornelius Tacitus was a senator and historian of the Roman Empire. I'm pretty sure he knew other Romans and it seems likely that he would have gotten his information from them. He was not a Christ follower; he was in the Roman government. He obviously deemed it reliable enough to include it in his annals.
  
  Have you heard of the Emperor Nero who ruled from 54-68 A.D? Historians say he was most famous for his vicious and cruel treatment of Christians. So even 20-30 years after the death of Jesus, Christianity has grown into such a huge movement that Nero is looking for ways to torture and kill them off. It's simply not reasonable to believe that Jesus didn't exist. Too much evidence says that he did. We have much more historical evidence for the life of Jesus than we do for the lives of Aristotle or Socrates.
  
  Now I do have to agree that there are currently no Roman sources alive today that would corroborate this story. We currently have no sources alive today who could testify that there was in fact a Revolutionary War. I'm assuming that didn't actually happen either.
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  DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Just about as much as the comment that was made that my response was written for.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well, perhaps YOU know who really wrote Matthew and Mark, preacher? Feel free to tell us and please cite your sources, people have been wondering who the authors were for centuries.
  
  In Matthew's case, the anonymous writer apparently used Haley's comet as an excuse for the Star of Bethlehem in his version and the visit of the Magi too.
  
  These events happened long after the birth of Jesus but around the same time the "According To" Matthew Gospel was written. A preacher should know this if he has truly researched the novel he claims to believe in.
  
  But then, bible colleges tend to skip over this kinda stuff for some reason.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Amen A.S.K. Preacher
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Sherlock221bposted 12 years ago
Something has struck me, concerning the popularity of any question about gay people. Although according to statistics, gay people only make up 2% of the population, the 98% which make up the heterosexual population seem amazingly interested in the 2%. What is the reason behind this, I wonder.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe statistics lie? If we ever get past the stigma some want to put on the word we might be surprised how many people can breath a sigh of relief that they can finally be honest, without fear of being judged.
  
  If not, it's probably that a large percentage of people sympathize with those who might feel ostracized and feel compelled to speak out in support.
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  Sherlock221bposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  When referring to the 98%, I was thinking more of those heterosexuals who spend an inordinate amount of time worrying about the lives of gay people. I mean, I doubt there can be that many gay people who concern themselves with the lives of their heterosexual neighbours. It is good that there are so many liberal heterosexuals on here, who support gay people, but it is the motivation of those that concern themselves perhaps too much with what is only a small number of the human population, that I am more interested in. And, it seems to be a fact that those who dwell on the lives of gay humans, give no thought to gay animals, of which there are many.
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Wayne Orvisburgposted 12 years ago
FYI, I haven't bothered reading any of the replies to this one. All I can say is that WE CANNOT SAY. That is up to the Big Man upstairs. He said, "Judge not, lest ye be judged." at least I think it was him. If not, Jesus did say "Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone."

As Christians, I think we need to remember this a little more often. It is our job to love EVERYONE and let God decide who is allowed through the gates of heaven.

I am definitly not the biggest Bible scholar, nor the finest example of a Christian. What I do think is a lot of people tend to forget the core of what Jesus tried to teach us. Love. Period.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I think those last two words cover a lot of folk's beliefs, even some Christians for that matter.
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  Wayne Orvisburgposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It's a shame so many forget it.
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janikonposted 12 years ago
I'm not going to read the responses because they will probably upset me, so I'll just say this -

I'm going to heaven - if there is one - bitchez. See all your faces there, by the coffee cart.
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davenmidtownposted 12 years ago
The bible adamantly condemns ten things... those are listed in the ten commandments... The rest is up to interpretation, subjective idealism and marketing.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Christianity, all rolled into one neat little holier-than-thou package.
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Jennifer Sicklerposted 12 years ago
I agree with Woman of Courage, and that is specifically what the Bible says about homosexuality. Remember, God's Word NEVER changes. People do. People are always twisting it to suit their own desires or justify any sin that God hates and homosexuality is one of them.
God (and yes, Christians--please don't confuse Catholics with Christians because not all Christians are Catholics and not all Catholics are Christians. What Catholics believe is not really in Christianity at all, but a more worldly/against the Bible views and intellectualizing what Jesus said simply and symbolically--I could go on), LOVES SINNERS (we are ALL SINNERS, no one is exempt from this!) but hates SIN.
Sin entered in the Garden of Eden when Satan tempted Eve to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge and then because of that temptation and pride, she was found out by God, and thus led to the Fall of Man.

Homosexuality was the ultimate sin, among many, that destroyed Sodom and Gommorrah in the Old Testament. As many archeologists have discovered, this city no longer exists because God destroyed it from the inside out and all the evil people that practiced sexual immorality, and those that were spared, were the few righteous that He could find in that city. Homosexuality DOES NOT PRODUCE FAMILIES in the way God ordained it as right and pure. He created helpmates in terms of MAN and WOMAN, not MAN AND MAN or WOMAN AND WOMAN! This is why marriage is between a MAN AND A WOMAN, not between homosexuals!!! Have you ever heard of homosexuals having children? That is because identical sexual organs cannot produce ANYTHING!!! It's fruitless!!!

Homosexuality is also from Satan and is more often than not, a God problem for these people, and not just an identity or sexual issue. Many of us think of this in sexual ways, which we can't help, and yes, it is immoral to be homosexual because it leads to other sins. Sin can be forgiven if we accept that we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. EVERYONE SINS! Atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, Christians, Catholics, Hindus, Muslims, etc. I could go on! This is what Christ died on the cross for, He took our sins for us so we could be made new creatures and enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

The Bible says that homosexuals, among other sinners, who are not forgiven of those sins nor repented, cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Those that HAVE repented, not continued in that sinful way or in other sinful ways and stayed close to Jesus and believed Him and loved Him as He first loved them, then yes, they can go to Heaven. Same as murderers, rapists, pedophiles, etc. they too can go to Heaven if they acknowledge their sin nature, repent, ask the Lord for forgiveness, and accept Him into their hearts and lives; and therefore, made new in Christ.

We live in a fallen world and Satan is in control of this world, but we must remember that the Lord God Almighty is above and beyond Satan and is the one who is ultimately in control and will be the Judge of All, whether or not you've repented or believed in Him.

This is the message, the Gospel that Jesus wants everybody to know. Even the most horrible and abominable of sins can be forgiven by Christ if the person repents and asks forgiveness, truthfully and honestly because God looks at the heart of man and KNOWS the heart of man more than we know ourselves.

We love to judge and justify, as that is our human nature. But God doesn't do this and we must remember that we are not God, however, we must also remember that God's Word--what He says in the Bible will not ever EVER EVER change for ANYONE.
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  VOICE CIWposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  VOICE CIW
  God bless you Jennifer Sickler, I was wondering when I would read a comment from someone who knew the Word of God. What you just wrote is beautiflul and truthful. When people argue against the Word of God it is pointless, the Bible is from God and God is perfect in all His ways. How can the finite mind find fault in the infinite Mind of God. When it comes to arguments about God and His laws, I use Bible to prove my point. I don't use my ideas or opinions, I use the Word of God. Jennifer Sickler I thank God for you, I enjoyed everything you wrote.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  There are so many inaccuracies in this post, that only someone as committed to the same deceptions would buy them.
  
  1. G-d's word may never change, but man's translation of them apparently can. The King James Version of the Bible includes many, many distortions in translating to Middle English from the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. When there's a conflict in interpretation, which version should one turn to: the Hebrew or Middle English?
  
  2. G-d doesn't hate homosexuality and if you were to read the actual Bible, that would become apparent to you.
  
  3. If G-d's word never changes, then how do you explain the new covenant? Why are Christians no longer bound by all the mitzvot that Jews are?
  
  4. Homosexuality was not the ultimate sin of Sodom and Gomorrah; it was lack of hospitality and the tradition of violence that the Hebrews made clear was the primary sin.
  
  5. Lots of people don't biologically reproduce. There are many biologically sterile people. Most social animals (like bees and ants) have entire classes that never reproduce, but still provide a purpose to the community.
  
  6. "Homosexuality is from Satan." Why, because you say so? Are you distorting the Bible again to fit your own personal prejudices?
  
  7. Your point about gays needing to repent and stopping their sinful ways is a good one. Does that also apply to people who remarried? (According to Jesus, this is a form of adultery)
  
  I'm not sure if you'll bother to answer, since it looks like your post was meant as a form of catharsis more than anything else.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Awesome post Jennifer, The word of God will stand forever.
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earnestshubposted 12 years ago
Ah! Time to show god's love again!

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

Megalomanic, psychotic little god.
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  tlmcgaa70posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  arrogant little human...
  
  i find it interesting that non believers try to use the Word of GOD against believers...especially when they have no understanding of what they are quoting...and often take it out of context to prove their points...if you dont believe in GOD why do you try to use HIS Word to defend your positions or lack of belief?
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  earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You know what you can do with your personal attack?
  
  Stand in line!
  Standard neurotic response from the terminally religious.
  
  When you have nothing to contribute but hackneyed biblical text you don't have much to say that is useful do you?
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Isn't that exactly what believers do?
  
  How is your understanding of the written word different from anyone else?
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  tlmcgaa70posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  earnst...that was not a personal attack, it was merely a statement on what i find interesting. if you took it personally that is your problem and not mine. at least what i am contributing to this thread is relevant to it...i do not constantly insult or mock others simply because they have a different belief than i do.
  
  a troubled man...when a believer uses scripture, they usually understand what the scripture in question means, both in the material world and the spiritual world...non believers read something and believe what they want in order to justify their opinions, they do not seek true understanding from its Author. (when i say believers, i am talking about those who live in obedience to GOD, who worship the real GOD as opposed to a self made image of HIM).
  my understanding of scripture comes from GOD. I do not twist it to justify my beliefs...in fact i have often had to change my beliefs as i grew in understanding...for instance, i was one who loved christmas...when i learned it was a pagan holiday and had nothing to do with CHRIST, i had to do away with it. i no longer observe mans holidays. and even though i am not associated with any man made organizations, i do keep the Sabbath on saturday...as GOD has taught me HIS Truth concerning the Sabbath. that was another change i had to make.
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  DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Just a curious question and nothing more. (Me being a bit nosy)
  
  Do you follow the Sabbath from Sundown to Sundown or Sunrise to Sunrise?
  
  For my own curiousity, nothing more. And feel free not to answer, I wouldn't be offended if you didn't.
  
  Thanks
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exceedingfaithposted 12 years ago
The issue of homosexuals and Christianity has caused a lot of debate, and sadly hurt many people.

I will say this first, prejudice is never right. It is sad that a lot of Christians deal with homosexuals from a prejudiced point of view rather than a Christian one. They simply take their personal prejudices and lable them as their Christian belief.

From a Christian perspective, Christians are supposed to 'win souls' into God's Kingdom. I firmly beleive that you cannot win a soul to God, until you win them to yourself - in other words, people will not be open to your beliefs and opinions until you show them you respect theirs. Christians are very good at pushing people away with one hand, while with the other inviting them to join church! And then they wonder why no one wants to join their church.

We need to deal with homosexuals as people (because they are!), rather than focusing on their sexuality first. Jesus spoke out more against religious people and their messed up religious views than anything else. Not to say he condoned sin, he did not, but the way he dealt with religious views and the way he dealt with people's sin was different. He was a strong critic of religious attitudes which were focused on destroying, attacking, criticising others. When it came to sin, he declared he would not throw the first stone (see woman caught in adultery). Many Christians have a bag full of stones they carry about to throw at people like homosexuals and are quite happy to pull the bag out and begin to pelt away - while a the same time preaching the love of God!!

Sadly many Christians, in their approach toward homosexuals, fall into the same category in their attitudes as the attitudes Jesus spoke against, making them just as guilty of breaking Jesus teachings than any of the people they criticise.

(I am sure there will be people who will attack my views in this post and not like what I am saying)

Back to the issue of do homosexuals go to heaven, or does being homosexual stop / disqualify them becoming a Christian or serving God

OK, let me ask this, when a person is a non Christian and becomes a Christian, what do they have to do? Do we sit them down and examine every sin and tell them they can't come to God until they get rid of every sin because their sin is stopping them coming to God? NO (or at least we shoudln't!!)

People come to Jesus 'as they are' - sins and all. He washes them. The whole point of the cross was that people could not clean themselves to come to God, they needed His help, whatever condition they were in.

Now, once a person is a Christian, do their sins stop them going to heaven?

Let's say there was a person who had problems in their love walk, problems with things like forgiveness (which is also a sin according to the Bible). This person comes to God, becomes a Christian, yet still holds onto their unforgiveness. Does that unforgiveness now stop them going to heaven? If they can go to heaven, with some unsorted out sins in their life, why is a homosexual different?

I don't think there are ANY Christians on this planet who have dealt with every sin in their life, with every wrong attitude, every area of gossip etc - yet they all feel they are going to heaven. Why? because of what Jesus did to cleanse them. Yet these same Christians are quite happy to point fingers at what they percieve are 'obvious external sins' that they can criticise in others (exactly what the Pharisees did - which Jesus told them off for in his teachings)

How would I deal with a homosexual?

Firstly, I would treat them with respect and treat them like I would any other person. I would accept them. If they were interested in God and coming to church, I would encourage them to do so and not tell them that their homosexuallity excludes them. I would tell them to come as they are - and introduce them to Jesus.

I would then leave it up to the Holy Spirit to deal with them in their own heart about whether they needed to deal with things in their life. It is not my job to be the Holy Spirit in their life. I am not the convicter of sin. I would encourage them to read their Bible, grow in God and let God show them the path of right / wrong they need to follow. If they are sincere and their heart is open to God, their heart will show them the way.

Personally I have enough things in my own life God is dealing with me about to grow in to have to focus on pointing things in other people's lives.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well said! Hear! Hear!
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Most Christians don't do these things.
  
  However its always better to follow Gods word ,when in doubt.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That's not what I read here. ExceedingFaith nailed it.
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  must65gtposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You mean well and I support your views, but you are arguing with people that wish to delve into their fleshly desires, bash Christians to justify their weakness, and denounce God's existence to remove inner turmoil. If you have made an effort to offer God's word, and it is refuted and refused, then kick the dust off your sandals, and turn your focus on God and ones more receptive to his word. One day ALL will know whether they are right.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That is a very good example of what brianeharmonjr is talking about.
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  exceedingfaithposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Sadly many people who are anti church and anti Christians are that way because Christians have doen a good job driving them away from church rather than winning them. Some people are anti God, but other people will never go near a church - simply because they met a Christian who was a terrible example of God's love (in other words - no example at all of it!!). We live in a day when the church has done a HUGE amont of damage to our own testimony, then we just blame it on people being anti God and do as you say - brush the dust of our sandals and go find someone else to turn off church. It is not just a matter of kicking the dust off your sandals - often showing a person the true charatcer of God and love of God can go a long way to win them, even when they were initially anti. Just in case anyone is wondering, I am a minister, have been a missionary in multiple countries, pastored churches, pioneered churches and taught in Bible Schools, as well as written many books. I have also seen non Christian people's attitudes to God change - when confronted with the love of God. People who were completely anti Church, who changed over time when I did not just write them off as anti God and clean the dust of my sandals to go elsewhere!
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  Sherlock221bposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I agree that the reason many people are anti-church is because they base their view of Christianity upon the example set by Christians. Christians then say that it is unfair to judge Christianity by the people who call themselves Christian. This makes little sense, becasue what is a church, if not the people that make up the faith? Christians are very judgemental, even though Jesus taught not to judge. Most Christians are also convinced that they are the "saved" and that anyone who is not like themselves is damned. Such self-righteousness is very off-putting to many people. It is therefore ironic that Christians believe that it is their duty to bring people to Christ, yet do all they can to push people away. And then, when they have been pushed away, they tell those they have pushed away that they are going to hell for not accepting their version of the "Truth." Trying to explain to Christians what they are doing is a waste of time, because they are so sure they have God on their side and that any criticism of them is a criticism of God.
  
  I am not for one moment saying that all Christians are like this, it just so happens that those that are have the loudest voices and make themselves more obvious than the moderate liberal kind. Personally, I have been moving my way towards atheism for a long time, away from my original Christianity. My atheism has been helped along my the ignorance of some Christian fundamentalists, who claim that the universe is 6,000 years old and was created in six days. As this is absurdly wrong, they do not do their religion many favours. Added to this, the judgemental nature of Christians, I have found myself become very anti-Christian and anti the concept of God.
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  exceedingfaithposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Sherlock221b :-)
  
  I totally understand you becoming anti Christian, partly due to the the judgemental attitude in Christians. I find that attitude very sad myself and something I endeavour to address when I teach - particularly in the Bible Schools I teach in. I endeavor to not be like that myself, and feel that showing people respect - no matter who they are is more consistent with the teachings of Jesus.
  
  I am always astounded by teh apssage in the Gospels where a woman caught in adultery was brought to Jesus, and the Pharisees wanted to stone her. What did Jesus do - he bent down and would not look at her. Many people wonder why He did this. I believe he was showing her respect. She was probably only partially clothed (having been dragged straight from bed as she 'was caught in the act') She most likely was feeling publically humiliated and shamed, and instead of judging her, Jesus was tender and showed her respect. This is more the attitude that SHOULD be shown by people who claim to follow Jesus. If we are His followers, we ought to act like He acted!
  
  If you have any questions about any of the other issues that have caused you to question Christianity, feel free to ask. I can't promise to be a walking encyclopedia of the Bible, but I may be able to add some thoughts to those issues :-)
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well,I dont like to assume people always mean what I think they mean so I will say this.
  
  God loves and knows my heart ,and if He knows me ,then he knows everyone and loves you ,and you equally.
  
  Of course He does, we are the reason He died.
  
  I am not perfect-who is?
  
  I try to remain open to correction and advice,helps if its spoken it love
  
  I am also human and may get irritated with a couple on here ,who insiduously play devils advocate.
  
  Trust me , my natural self wants to be all over you like a bad rash, but I choose to be humble and smile instead (so far )
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thank-you for your encouragement and stand in Christ .
  
  Isnt it great to be NOT troubled
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  must65gt wrote:
  
  ...bash Christians to justify their weakness...
  
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  We are hard pressed on every side, but not crushed; perplexed, but not in despair; persecuted, but not abandoned; struck down, but not destroyed.
  
  Amen
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Perhaps, I should have replaced the word, Christian with atheist to make my point clear.
  
  ...bash atheists to justify their weakness...
  
  Persecuted, or persecuting?
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  How did you look into the minds of the people you were referring to in this quote? Did your god give you this power, dude? Or are you simply making a judgement on your own because of YOUR beliefs?
  
  Point out where someone on this wished "to delve into their fleshly desires," please.
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And, of course, you have absolutely no evidence whatsover to validate your absurd assertions.
  
  WEAK? I think you need to look inside!
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  Woman Of Courageposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Kiwi. Exactly.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  This post is a beautiful example of the spirit I had always expected should be the spirit of Christianity. You hardly ever see it, what with the loud and adamant condemning that usually goes on. Unfortunately, the bag of stones you say most christians seem to carry has been in their hands so long they are blinded to it.
  
  Yours is a truly spiritual perspective.
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earnestshubposted 12 years ago
I like your open acceptance of homosexuals, but it does go against the teaching of the bible.

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

This is the sort of garbage that the religiously impaired base their homophobia on. It's in the "good book" so it must be right!
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  DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You know the funny part...This is used to bash those who are gay...but when you point out the OT laws that they themselves are breaking...they break out with the "we are under grace and it doesn't apply today" speech...
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  sonfollowersposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The bottom line is that Christians were never meant to judge homosexuals (or anyone else outside the church) for their lifestyle. People outside the church are not accountable to those inside the church. According to the New Testament, the application to get into heaven only has one question on it. "God loves you. Do you love Him back? Check yes or no." That's it. If the answer is no then no other questions are necessary. Questions about sexual preference are irrelevent. If the answer is yes.... no other questions are necessary. There are no addendums. Once you're in the front door, that's when God (who I believe in) begins to work on you to make you a better person. If you refuse to grow then you might actually start running around telling people how scummy they are and how much better you are. For those who are doing that, you've missed it completely.
  
  For those who do not follow Jesus, that is your choice and you have the right to make that decision. Christians believe that there are consequences for that decision. We do our best to communicate that to people who will listen. But we have no right to harrass you for your lifestyle choices. If we're focused on that then we're completely off target.
  
  That's my perspective.
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exceedingfaithposted 12 years ago
earnestshub - I neither advocate nor speak against homosexuality in my post, so my post does not go against the Bible :-)

The focus on what I am saying is on attitudes toward homosexuals amoungst Christians, as well as what REALLY stops a person going to heaven and what REALLY stops a person coming to church. Many Christians like to highlight other people's sins - while having a whole bunch of maybe not so obvious ones themselves. The Bible speaks out strongly against bad attitudes toward others, heart issues, and in fact Jesus in Mathew 15:19 - Jesus lists EVIL THOUGHTS at the top of a list including murder, adultery etc. Amazing how many Christians will jump on adultery while sitting at home thinking evil thoughts toward their neighbour who left their car parked across their drive yesterday morning.

My point is no one is perfect - yet we like to highlight 'the big external things' - and try to exclude people from coming to God becasue of these thigns in their life.

To properly understand the Bible you cannot simply quote Old Testament passages and neglect how the New Testament deals with things. This discyussion is about Christian views (see original post) so New Testament must be considered.

Jesus was called 'a friend of sinners'
He spent time with people classed as sinners (much to the disgust of the Pharisees)

he did not stand there telling them all the reasons why they cannot come to God because of their sins. Jesus specifically came to seek and save those who were lost. He also 'did not come into the world to condemn the world' (John 3:17) which happens to the verse after the momst famous Bible verse ever - for God so loved the world....

How are we accuratly representing Jesus - who our faith is built upon - when we go around condemning others? ??????
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Being a friend is a good thing,but its not Christ's friendship that gets me into Heaven-just sayin
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GARRY185posted 12 years ago
Yes the bible does condemn all those things. But if you repent and except Christ as your savior- turn your live over to him- he can change a person- Romans 8:2
Ephesians 4:22-24 Put off your old self and be renewed in the spirit of your mind. Put on the new self.
You can be free in Jesus by Grace. Only Jesus can say who goes to heaven or hell but you have to believe in him wholeheartedly to get to heaven.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Amen. Jesus came to deliver and set us free. It's all about sincerely repenting and asking God for forgiveness. God looks at the heart of a person. Not one us is perfect, but God know when one is indulging delightfully in sin without a unrepentant heart.
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Bard of Elyposted 12 years ago
I don't believe in Heaven or Hell so my answer is neither!
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mikicagleposted 12 years ago
Jesus did not speak of homosexuality in the New Testament. He commanded everyone to love one another so......no matter if you are gay or straight if you are a Christian in the true sense and love your fellow man or woman you get a ticket straight to Heaven
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graceomalleyposted 12 years ago
Jesus did not address homosexuality, and he was certainly aware of it. It is mentioned in the Old Testament, which Jesus knew very well, and it was socially accepted in the ancient Greco-Roman world, though the Jews were the exception to this. I think it is very interesting that Jesus chose the religious leaders of his day to condemn. The religious leaders were the ones to spur him to talk about there being such a thing as an unforgiveable sin. (Jesus said blaspheming the Holy Spirit is unforgiveable. The meaning of this is far from clear, but no one has ever guessed it is any sort of sexual transgression.)

I think you are onto something, that Western culture has behaved as though homosexuals were comitting an unforgiveable sin. Putting aside the question of right and wrong of homosexuality within Christianity, a larger question is can a person ever do something so bad that one action shuts them out of heaven? I for one think not. That would be putting a limit on God's mercy. I go with the interpretation that since the Holy Spirit is the power that stirs you to turn to God and seek forgiveness, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit means refusing to turn to God, refusing to even try to be reconciled with him. In other words, the only time you don't get forgiven is when you are too stubborn to ask for forgiveness.

But the question is stated as "being a homosexual." I don't think being something is a sin. Even if homosexual sex is a sin, just being a homosexual doesn't equal sin (in my opinion.) If I were homosexual, I would reconcile that to my faith by remaining celibate. But I don't have that conflict, so I can't claim to have explored it.
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  sonfollowersposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yep, I agree with all of this. Some Christians are very quick to say that either:
  - Homosexuals are irredeemable.
  - Homosexuals must completely stop sinning in order to go to heaven.
  I don't think this is what the Bible teaches. I agree with your interpretation of the whole "blaspheming the Holy Spirit" thing as well.
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exceedingfaithposted 12 years ago
I am glad to see some positive responses to the things I have said. It is good to see that some people see that what I am trying to express is what I believe the spirit of Christianity should be - but sadly often is not

One thing I wanted to add - food for thought:

When you read the Gospels, you will notice that 'sinners' flocked to Jesus - they WANTED to be around Him. There was something about Jesus that drew them to Him.

However in contrast today, unbelievers stay AWAY from the church in droves! They want to keep as far away as possible.

Surely if we are acuratly representing Jesus and what He stood for - people would respond to us in the same way they responded to Him? It was the religious people that crucified Jesus, not the 'sinners'. The 'sinners' wanted to hear Him.

Has the church today drifted so far in this area from how Jesus was that we are not accuratly representing Him in this area?

We cannot simply blame people's lack of interest in church on 'they don't like God' - I believe as a church we need to examine oursleves and ask ourself a question we do not want to face up to - Are we really treating the unsaved like Jesus did?

I do not believe we are.
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getpaidtopostposted 12 years ago
there is no god, oh my we are in the 21st century and people still believe in god. its all a load of bull imo ok i believe in the profits and do believe they existed but the words they spoke was all bull, just a way to make people get along with each other but that never worked either. People there is no god, no heaven no hell there is strange things however going on in space but that is not god. gees how can you believe what was said 2000 years ago. I wish there was a god but nar there aint
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Sherlock221bposted 12 years ago
Personally, I have a problem with Christians. I mean what they get up to in their private lives is up to them, but I just wish they wouldn't push it in my face. I understand that Christians believe that they do not have a choice to be Christians, but believe that there is evidence that they were called to be so by Jesus, but personally, I believe the Christian lifestyle is a matter of choice. If Christians could show me some real evidence that being a Christian is not a choice, by showing me scientific evidence for Jesus, then I would be willing to have an open mind. I do not hate Christians, for although I cannot approve of the sin, I nevertheless love the sinner.

I must add that my above comment is not meant to be taken literally. It is simply using the kind of language used by some Christians, in an attempt to show how irrational their thinking can be.
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Deborah Sextonposted 12 years ago
I found something on the internet about the size of brain parts in gay people

http://www.time.com/time/health/article … 38,00.html
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Deborah Sextonposted 12 years ago
Here are two more about the size of brain parts

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7456588.stm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co … 01038.html

A Quote by Dr. Rahman

"As far as I'm concerned there is no argument any more - if you are gay, you are born gay"
Dr Qazi Rahman
Queen Mary, University of London
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foreignpressposted 12 years ago
Despite all the biblical interpretations, nobody knows what happens after death. Heaven, hell, and everything in between are supernatural. This means they are not of this planet and beyond our scope of reasoning or understanding. Topics like this make for good chatter at the kitchen table but nothing more.
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Gean Paul Turaposted 12 years ago
I believe we wouldn't know in any way since only God can decide who goes to heaven or hell, if somebody is a homosexual and dies then face God but ask for a sincere forgiveness God will I think forgive. God is merciful, God is Love and God knows.
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SirDentposted 12 years ago
I have no idea why I even bother here yet again. Two posts I made on this thread and not a single response to either of them. It seems many just want to argue for the sake of arguing.

Jesus said to the woman who was caught in the act of adultery, "Go, and sin no more." Paul wrote that when we come to Jesus we are no longer what we were but are new creatures in Christ.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Can a person live in sin and make it into heaven? No. Just because we sin from time to time does not make us living in sin anymore than if someone is right every now and then does not make them right all the time.

The simple fact is this. No one can make it into heaven without accepting Jesus Christ according to the terms God put forth.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Agree.
  
  Regardless of my opinion ,or anyone elses for that matter Gods word stands alone.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
  
  If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
  
  All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
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  AngelTraderposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You appear to literally be "A Troubled Man". Christianity is so violent.
  
  Where has the love gone for goodness sake!
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well, like eaglewiki said, Gods word stands on its own, and love ain't one of those words.
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RandyRoperposted 12 years ago
Well I know this much gay people will go to heaven or hell rich
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travelingineuropeposted 12 years ago
I'm not a theologian, but I take a lot of theological courses, so I have a bit of knowledge on this one. Yes, if you look at m profile, I have a huge interest in traveling, but that is amongst many things in life

Homosexuality is in the eyes of God a sin (often quoting Romans 1). The basic theology is anyone can be forgiven of his sin as long as it's not the unforgivable sin. This unforgivable sin usually refers to not accepting the Holy Spirit, and therefore one will not even ask for his sins to be forgiven. And if he does not ask for his sins to be forgiven, then his sins will not be forgiven. The key is indeed to accept the Holy Spirit to enter his life.

1. Even if you're heterosexual (which is what the Bible deems to be the right kind of orientation), you will not enter heaven unless you accept the Holy Spirit to enter into your life, admits Jesus Christ as your personal savior, and put all of your life under His reign.

2. Even if you have accepted the Holy Spirit, you will not become sinless anymore until you receive your new body. This is hinted in Paul's letter in Corinthians and in the book of Revelation. Therefore, everyone who has accepted the Holy Spirit will indeed have a new life immediately (what we call as born-again), but considering that you're still in the present imperfect flesh, you will still sin. So Christians can lie, will lie, can steal, may steal, can be unjust, will be unjust, etc. And it is said that liars, robbers, adulterers, etc. will go to hell (Revelation). The only way for these people to have their sins completely absolved is when they have given their lives to Christ, which includes the repentance from their sins and the demand to be obedient to the right way of Christian life.

3. The sign of having the Holy Spirit is you won't be at peace with yourself as you go on sinning. You will grieve because you sin, and you should ask the Lord for forgiveness and strength to become a more perfect being, following the steps of Christ.

4. I believe that one of the possible sins is being a bisexual/homosexual person. I don't believe that this is one of the unforgivable sins, but it is indeed sinful. I won't tell my homosexual brother he's right, but I don't only offer admonishment, but also a shoulder for him to cry on and struggle together with him, if he should honestly relate to me that he's struggling. The problem with anyone, including any Christians, is our insistence to self-righteousness that we aren't even the right state of struggling against sin because we don't even want to admit it is a sin.

5. Anecdote: There was one time when a student was taught that his homosexuality would bring him closer and closer to paganism. He wrote a piece of paper, slammed it on the table and left the classroom. The paper read, "I'm damned angry that my homosexuality is bringing me closer and closer to paganism."

The professor asked more about who that was. He was apparently an operatic singer, and in his community, there are a lot of homosexual activities, and he was being pulled deeper and deeper into this community as it was his professional career.

Years later, the professor asked how the student was doing and if he was still singing. It was told that he still sang, but he quit being an operatic singer and sang in the church.

To us Christians, we know that he was angry and uneasy because the Holy Spirit worked in him. I am not saying that all true Christian homosexuals will be able to overcome his homosexuality, but I am also saying that there is hope for a Christian to overcome his homosexuality if God so wills it (eg. God didn't accept the great St Paul's request for the thorn in his body to be lifted).

So there are two more things to take note: 1. Not all who claim themselves as Christians are necessarily true Christians (have not given their lives to God). 2. Not all who are homosexuals are Christians. 3. Non-Christian (including those who are Christians only nominally) adulterers, liars, robbers, homosexuals will go to hell. 4. Christians, whether they are homosexuals or liars, will have all their sins forgiven and go to heaven.

Usually at this juncture, people are upset that you seem to be allowed to continue to sin freely. But I have mentioned that one of the characteristics being a true Christian is the evidence of repentance, no matter how small. The heart that desires holiness instead of sinfulness. I think it was the great St Augustine that confessed that his heart didn't wholly want to sin, but didn't wholly want not to sin either. That's how it goes. However, a non-Christian definitely is one who never in his life desires not to sin in response to glorifying God and putting God as the king over his life.

Another point is that most people can be rather upset that following Christ sounds like an easy thing to do to have your sins forgiven. Well, it's not. First of all, this required the death of Jesus Christ on the cross, and that was never a light penalty for sin. Secondly, it's not something that is considered easy or difficult, but rather, impossible, for anyone to accept Jesus Christ on his own accord. Salvation is from God and God Himself chooses those who are saved. This is by grace alone (so no one may boast).

I doubt that my post will be the most pleasant thing to hear in people's ears. However, that is the truth as I know it. It's difficult for me to smile lightly on this matter because I know many people won't like reading this. It's a bit like pronouncing judgment, and if you ask honestly, I appeal to you to think these things through.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I would believe your post would be more unpleasant for your brother than anyone else and he would probably not be interested in your shoulder at all, as cold as it appears.
  
  Maybe you should think it through yourself. I appeal.
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slappywalkerposted 12 years ago
I'm not sure how anyone can answer this question regardless of their religious affiliation. Final judgment (if you even believe in it) is not up to us.

I'm pretty sure whether they get into heaven or not, it's going to be beyond our level of comprehension. For that much, I don't think anyone else can say with 100% surety where they are headed after this lifetime is over since nobody is without sin.
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paarsurreyposted 12 years ago
I think this question is not to be decided by the human beings; they don't have any control on the heaven. It is to be decided by the Creator God who has created the human beings. One should seek His mercy instead of judging others.
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