I'm an atheist, but I've always thought that the Bible adamantly condemns homosexuality. Do homosexuals have any chance of getting into heaven? This has always confused me.
In God's eyes, is being homosexual any more different than being an adulterer or killing someone? Can homosexuals also be forgiven?
I assume you're asking Christians. Believe it or not, people who are neither Christian or atheist exist, and have opinions about such things.
That said, even among Christians you're going to see a wide degree of opinion, mostly because no one really knows the answer to that question.
I'm asking anyone who can help answer the question. Any person from any religious or non-religious group. How can there not be an answer?
Well, I can't claim to have the exact answer of who goes to Heaven but I believe some Christians are gay, or indeed some gays are Christian. So I bow to their knowledge on the subject. If they think they are going then that's fine by me.
If I believed in Heaven or God or that kind of thing then I'd personally prefer one where we were all free and equal kind of thing. Rather than end up with a load of people who probably wouldn't like me being in 'their' Heaven.
The answer is still we don't know if there is a heaven or afterlife, which precludes really knowing if anyone "gets in."
According to the most commonly-held Jewish belief, everyone except the most irredeemably evil people enter the World to Come.
According to Christian doctrine, Paul said there are a large number of people that don't get into heaven, including non-Christians, thieves, drunkards, (what some would interpret to mean) gays, etc.
The Jehovah's Witnesses go a bit further and restrict it to 144,000 total people (of which I'm sure none are gay).
I love that number! Where does it come from? There's a lot more than 144,000 Jehovahs. Someone's being mugged.
Haha, that's true. I guess whoever did the most door-to-door converting, or whoever gave out the most copies of Watchtower.
The number comes from Revalations in the Bible
The Jehovah's Witnesses (btw, Jehovah isn't a word in any language, especially Hebrew. Look it up) got that number from Revelation, which states that right before the total end of the world, 144,000 Non-Christians will become Christian. How in all the world the JW's interpreted that as "Only 144,000 people in the history of the world are ever going to get into Heaven" I have no idea.
Wrong. The 144, 000 are the faithful and discreet servants. They'll rule with Christ according to the JW. The rest are the great crowd.
You are right about the word Jehovah. I pointed that out to two once. They consulted their elders and came back with a statement that; although true, it didn't matter. God knew what they meant. I told them they might as well call him Bob, since that wasn't the name either. They were not amused.
Yea ,but apparently the J'W'S had to change this creed,since they found the departed saints were going to exceed those numbers.
I hadn't heard that. That's funny, but new revelations will be given to them and it'll clarify the prophesy. They are never wrong.
Think I'll wait for Hollywoods version
(Good chance as being hired as an extra too)
A hollywood version would be interesting. For as controlled as those people appear to be it's almost impossible to find out info on their leaders, where all the money goes, etc. I've looked up info on every cult that knocks on my door. I actually find them fascinating. These guys are the most secretive.
It is 12,000 Hebrews from the 12 Tribes of Israel
144,000 is a multiple of 12, which is the number that signifies all of a set in apocalyptic literature (Daniel, Revelation). It signifies all believers, but the JW sect didn't understand the meaning of 12 and that 144,000 was an extension of it and interpreted the number in Revelation literally, thus the doctrine of only 144,000 gettin' to the gates.
As a former Jehovah's Witness, I can confirm that you are correct, none of the 144,000 are gay.
Originally, the 144,000 represented 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. Jehovah's Witnesses believe the 144,000 are the ones who will go to heaven, but the majority of Jehovah's Witnesses will, they believe be resurrected to a paradise Earth after the battle of Armageddon.
Many organized religions are not known for encouraging people to think for themselves. They'd rather have everyone think that they have all the answers. But life is messier than that. I was raised Catholic...but now belong to a Unitarian church...which does encourage its members to think out their with spiritual development.
Even the Holy Spirit of the Trinity is the one who supposedly "whispers" our individual purpose in our ear...and that takes reflection, self-trust and trust in God....and a willingness to be different from those around you. If you have that trust...you've got true faith.
"These things only remain, Faith, Hope, and Love, and the greatest of these is Love." - St. Paul
Such love includes tolerance and acceptance...though one wouldn't know this by the way the conservatives who call themselves Christians carry on!
Being an homosexual lets leave God out of this, is going in a different direction to the fundamental law of universe and law of magnetism because everything created as it own specific male and female partner (yin and yang) even God himself as a female partner which is our mind. Homosexuality to me, i can say is wrong because -ve and -ve or +ve and +ve don't have true attraction they only repel. Going to hell or heaven, I don't really believe in that because right here on earth you can choose to live in heaven or hell. What is heaven? to theist is believe to be the abode of God and it was said that God is every where, so therefore heaven is everywhere, around you, inside you so as hell. I don't believe going to heaven or hell as i don't believe in death.
Good luck with the not believing in death, I think you may be persuaded of the reality of it in time
Fundamental laws of the Universe do not dictate human life - the rules of life are dictated by society - and speaking out against homophobia as many of your unknown friends do in these threads is about changing the views of the mass of society in the face of aggressive religious weirdism.
good luck to you too, i don't follow any religion but if you want to follow the masses, you can. Hiding from the truth can't change the truth
Maybe I did not make my post clear.
It was about many people, including myself, who speak against homophobia.
Society has a general opinion on these things and especially those who claim to be christians seem bent on turning people against homosexuals and other gender differences.
The masses follow whichever opinion suits them - it is our job in these threads to try and push or pull the masses away from homophobia, hate and bigoted morals.
It's your job, you say? Who is "our"?
How much money has your employer shelled-out to you on y'all's wild goose chase, lookin' for needles in haystacks, snipe-hunting, all that? Because the only "phobias" in evidence around here have been hatred for conservatives, Christians, Israel, and morality.
You could hone your craft. You know, take your focus to a valid level in your line of work. Hint---there are MANY examples of hatred against conservatives and other straights in these threads, even against God Himself. No one expects you to defend God of course! But you could at least defend your fellow hubbers from being verbally personally assaulted. But wait---you're all about "pushing" and "pulling" your agenda as you said......so I guess we can't expect anything good from there either...
The only reason I bother to stay in the forums and comment is mostly due to the small handful of slobbering bigots who spread their hatred and misery around. Some balance has to be maintained. That the bigots are generally christian, right wing homophobes who have no decency, morality or much humanity is quite apparent to the normal people who read this stuff.
no they won't go to heaven. but the good news is either will anyone else so it's all good.
they do neither they are cast into the lake of fire and destroyed
I don't believe the lake of fire is reserved for people. I mean seriously, God is love and He is a forgiving God. I believe the lake of fire is reserved for false gods, demons and the devil, the fallen angels included since they have caused so much harm to humanity. But then, there are the luciferians who have sold their souls to satan. Best to leave it up to God to rightly judge.
I did, what you believe means absolutely nothing. What God says means everything. 1 Cor 6:9-11
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11
I believe the Word of God, and that Scripture tells me who will not inherit the kingdom of God. But, everyone will stand before God one day and be given a choice. What it will come down to is not if we claim we are Christians, but if He knows us. Some who call them self a Christian will hear Him say, depart from Me, I never knew you.
absolutely not true. only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life will gain entry into eternity. There is no 2nd chance. When you die or at the end of this age whichever comes first your fate is sealed. If at that time your name is in the book you get in if not you go to the lake of fire-
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
That is speaking about the dead from the underworld, (those that the world says are only myths). Its not speaking about humans.
2 Corinthians 5:10 - For we [believers will be called to account and] must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be repaid for what has been done in the body, whether good or bad [that is, each will be held responsible for his actions, purposes, goals, motives—the use or misuse of his time, opportunities and abilities].
Its good to keep our forgiveness list short, so that we can be forgiven. When God forgives us of a transgression, the Scriptures say that He throws it into the sea of forgetfulness...so that is a done deal, no judgement required.
it is clear that your mind is made up so why waste my time showng you scripture when you do not understand it. you are quoting false doctrines of men in place of what scripture says so I will leave you to you delusions
6 And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.
Your vitriol, your arrogance, your fanaticism, your whole mentality seems to be directed at domination of your opinion over that of anyone elso.
This is not "faith." It's not even simple religion. It's your mental condition that wants to rule the minds of everyone else.
So sort out your own life first. Come to terms with all the background happenings of your personal life
This is your responsibility, your task that only you can tackle
Only then will you be fit assist in the lives of other people.
If you could please quote the words of Jesus, not any other writer we'd have something to go on. Otherwise, it appears Johnnycomelately may have you pegged.
You might spend some time contemplating Matthew 7:3
""Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?"
The interpretations that you get from that book do not suit me and my life. So I reject them 100%.
I have read the book written by a learnĕd scholar here in HubPages which clearly shows that homosexuality is no where talked about in the bible.
You can reject it if you choose to. Fair call.
Charlie, you really have gotten yourself into an unhealthy mental state.
Who have you been listening to? Or is all this stuff something you have conjured up in your own sick mind?
Anything you read from that bible of yours is out of place. For a start, everything there was written to people of very different cultures, in different circumstances, with different attitudes and understandings of life. 2000, 3000, 4000 and more years ago. For different reasons. Those writings were not written for this time that you and I live in.
The biased translations that you wish to quote from convey false meanings anyway. For example, the term "homosexual" did not exist in those historic days. And the homosexuality that we are familiar with today was not being referred to in the texts which you use.
Finally, there is no "heaven" or "hell" when we are dead. There is nothing....No Thing. Thus there is no joy, no sorry, no feeling, no existence for you or me. End. Finished. Period. So enjoy your life while you have it .... you're a long time dead.
Charlie, it sounds like the god you worship is a sadistic cruel tyrant. But if that's your choice, so be it. You will be subject to those rules and the punishment if you disobey.....so be very careful what you wish for.
scripture is not open to debate. believe what you wish but don't try to intimidate me with your false beliefs. I have no wish for anything other than what scripture speaks. Disciples of Christ follow scripture not doctrines of men such as you are proposing, Yes I AM subject to scripture and I know it and have no problem with it as all true disciples of Christ do.. The reason for the Judgement at the end of this age is clear, to send those who truly belong to Christ into eternity and those that deny Him to destruction in the Lake of fire. He will not allow unbelievers to pollute His eternity as they have the current earth. The God I serve is THE loving God but He is also a God of Judgement of whether or not those who profess to be His really are His.
cooldad, Good question. The bible does condemns homosexuality as an immoral and unnatural sin. (Leviticus 18:22). God loves everyone including homosexuals. He simply hates sin. Yes homosexuals can also be forgiven, but one has to repent and sincerely desire to change. This applies to adulterers and murderers also. It's not good for anyone to ask God for forgiveness and keep committing the same sins over and over.
That's way too much logic, WOC.
Many here seem to have a problem understanding that faith and repentance also require action... physical work.
But most today are adverse to real work.
nice answer WOC
Some people are deep in sin and its hard to come out of that sin. I don't envy that situation. Jesus said "go and sin no more". We know that God set up a "natural' way of doing things. Male and female. We understand that God dislikes when people do their own thing and go against the grain of Gods ways. It's quite obvious to me that there is a need for change in that sort of lifestyle and that God loves all people and is willing to help make change, reality.
Some seem to think it's not a lifestyle. Lifestyle means the way in which a person or group lives. I'm not trying to open up a can of worms or anything. God bless you brother.
i hear that. GBU2
if not a lifestyle then what.. just a random thing that occurs once in a while?
I see the can of worms. Even random things that occur infrequently leaven the whole lump, do they not?
This is i suppose why the rabbis spent so much time dissecting Gods laws. Do not work on the sabbath was a big debate. What is meant by work.. carrying 70lbs would not be work to a man but to a woman it would be, pushing the car, winnowing wheat is work and when one walks through a wheat field do they not winnow. lol.
Paul said "let everyman be convinced in his own mind" (as to what is right and wrong) and this is the personal relationship we each have with God our maker. One may esteem one thing clean and another unclean.
I see another can of worms now.
I agree too WoC. Action speaks louder than words...
I don't think that homosexuality was the sin they were talking about. They were referring to the raping of young boys by older ones, or by grown men. That was the sin, since there is not consent...only control.....alot like the priest scandals. It's the betrayal of trust and misuse of power that's the real issue.
Perhaps if those same people were not taught that they were shameful, they could express their sexuality openly and the raping wouldn't happen.
The growing consensus among Jews is that Lev 18:22 refers rather to male temple prostitution, a common cult of Molech (and fertility goddess Ashteroth) practice at the time, as was bestiality. This was made clear in 2 Kings 23:5-10; the word Christians have translated to sodomites is the Hebrew word "kadesh", which is the male form of "kedesha", a female cult prostitute.
That entire section of Leviticus, 18, along with 20, is devoted to ways that Hebrews are to set themselves apart from their pagan neighbors. This is more easily illustrated in such practices as not mixing fibers in clothing, something that has no ethical value but set the Hebrews apart from their neighbors who had such a practice.
woman of courage I could not have commented any better than you just commented on whether homosexuals will go to Heaven, or whether they can be forgiven. Stay blessed.
I haven't read anything that says Gays do not get to go to heaven. There are a number of abominations unto the Lord that it is said that they shall be put to death (taken out of this world) But where does it say that they are to go to hell?
I do not know of a place which says that.
Romans 1:26-32, Revelations 21:8, 22: 15. The New King James says sexually immoral but the King James says sodomites.
Just got a minute then gotta go again.
In Romans 1, it dos not say anything about going to hell.
Rev 21 says the fearful etc shall have their part in the lake, don't know what that means, "A Part?" especially when AFTER the new City comes down, After Satan and the False prophet are thrown INTO the lake and yet it seems that having their share (?) doesn't seem to be the same thing as being thrown into it. After all is said and done, there they still are, outside the gates (Rev 22:15) ? I think there is more to be considered concerning this issue than what has yet been discovered?
But that is just ME
This, along with many other inconsistencies within the 'church', is what led me to leave it! I learned early on that my church was hypocritical in its teachings. It portrayed 'God' as all knowing and all loving, yet he was unforgiving of 'divorce' and homosexuality? I was almost suspended from catholic school when I asked 'unconscionable' questions of the nuns. If we all originated from Adam and Eve then weren't we in fact the product of incest? If God created us and was 'all knowing' didn't he then know in advance what and who we would become? In essence, he created the mass murderer, the sociopath, the homosexuals etc. Or at the very least, he allowed their existence.
some will say he gave us free will, but that still does exonerate him for allowing these deviations in his model (humans).
Sorry for the rant- to answer your question, I personally believe that all but the most depraved among us will go to heaven or at least a better place.
Cindi-That sounds a lot like me when i was a kid. I also had questions like yours. just a lot of lame replies like have faith or I'm not supposed to question God. Even worse when they'd smile at me like i was some silly kid with silly questions. (sigh)
oh yeah and what about the answer, "It's a mystery"? One nun even told me that if we had the answers to all our questions, we'd be God!
It's a mystery, I still hear that one from relatives. Gotta love how they dodge that question! I also have a hard time believing an all loving, powerful and fair god would forgive a child molester for accepting God but send a starving child in a third world country to hell because nobody told the kid about Jesus.
I would think a homosexual would be as welcome as anyone else in the christian heaven.
Oh, that's right no one's welcome, other than right wing bigoted zealots. Most gays and lesbians that I know are nicer than that.
So, if they had some reason to want to hang with a bunch of people who spent their holier than thou lives thinking they were better than the rest of us; sure, why couldn't they get in? Wanting to be there would show they are truly forgiving.
I presume dead homosexuals will end up in the same place as dead cats, dead dogs and dead heterosexuals.
Doesn't seem to be any particular law in Judaism and Christianity that condemns homosexuals or homoeroticism. The two religions does condemn spilling your seed clearly as well as incest.
Hay cooldad .... Interesting arguements in this thread.
Yep! bible says one "SIN" is no greater than another.
There are however, some sins which I find more distastfull than those that "I" happen to maintain.
I am also pretty sure that "IF" I were to rid the world of all those that enjoy different sins that those which I keep, the world would be one borring place. And it might even stop turning.
Your question would seem to be quite complicated at first glance, but I don't think it is really.
Do Homosexuals get to go to heaven?
Sexuality does not have a place in heaven, according to scripture. I think that there are many things which are allowed into heaven that does not enter through the gates of the kingdom.
I do believe in God the creator. I have no clue as to the method in which all of this was created. It did come about in one fashion or another This I do not believe was just an accident.
I believe Jesus was the Messiah that OT prophesy was talking about. And I believe those things written in the bible which are written in "red". Including those verses which warned about decievers coming and professing to be speaking in his name.
Who are these decievers? I haven't a clue! Not going to point any fingers cause I have no way of knowing.
I might even be one, who knows?
I'm pretty sure that I should be certain that my back porch is swept perfectly clean before I am to tell you that you should take out your trash.
I could go on and on, but I guess this is enough or now.
Yes, there are very interesting arguments and opinions in this thread. People truly fascinate me. I'm always amazed how one simple question can evoke so many types of emotions when concerning religion or politics. People become very passionate about their beliefs, especially when their beliefs are put into question.
I enjoy all the comments and enjoy observing how people react. Thanks so much for contributing.
Thanks or the reinorcement.
I honestly believe that statement to have been the truth.
Unfortunately .... here on hub pages forums .... Folks ; don't apear to pay No Attention unless they read something to argue about and think themselves to apear inteligent.
Skip right over everything unless there is an insult to throw. This is called exersing 7 days a week.
Regardless of where somebody else is going... If we are fixated on where "They" are going ; we will end up right there with then ... wherever that is!
edit I'm going to bed now. just wanted to give somebody ?? something to think about.
Well, I would have to say, that since most christians believe that they are now saved by faith and that no christian is perfect, that anyone who believes and accepts jesus as thier personal savior is going to heaven. Homosexual or not.
A lot of people think homosexalty is a sin because of the bible. If they are going to hell, then so are runaway slaves, women who do not obey their husbands, peole who don't rest on the sabbath and people who take the lords name in vain. Oh yeah and everyone that covets another persons posessions. Yeah, I have a feeling Hell is going to be a mighty crowded place when we all get there but a lot more fun then hanging out with all the fundies in heaven. lol
Homosexuality is a sin. just like premarital sex, lying & etc... A sin is a sin what ever it is. There is only one unforgivable sin and homosexuality is not it.
God did not create sin. it came from Satan and his angles. You could read in the Gospels about demons that are specialist in a certain sins and they go out and try to influence people to try and fall for their tricks. if you read matt 12:43-45 you can see that demons try and double, triple team you to try and make you fall to whatever you are weak in. (sex, gambling, porn, addiction, etc.....) There is even a story were a man was attacked by a legion of demons. but in eph 6:10-20 God teaches us how to fight these spirits. Jesus scared the legion by using the Word of God. there is so much to share but i wont overload my reply. Cooldad you my not believe this, which is OK. I have no right to Judge (i am a sinner like everyone else) but i rather you understand what the bible saids (what God saids) instead of some fake preacher making up their on doctrine. Good luck to you.
If you ask me it is the most ignorant question I have ever heard which I say with no apologies
I'm confused, what is the most ignorant question you have ever heard?
Are we there yet? Oh, no... not that one. That's the most annoying.
Ignorant? Hum... "Am I worthy?" That's an ignorant question. All things and people have tremendous worth. We just don't know it because ignorant people/religions raised and trained us to believe that somehow we were not acceptable beings. Now, ignorant doesn't mean bad or unworthy. It just means not knowing.
The Bible (God's Word) states that "all have sinned" (Romans 3:23). God loves all of us. We are all sinners. It is the sin that he condemns and hates not the sinner. He gives us an opportunity to repent from our sins, turn away from them and live for Him. We war against the flesh. Romans 8 speaks a lot about this. The book of romans would probably be a good book to read and try to get an understanding about repenting and turning your life over to God. Salvation is about pleasing God, not man. We want to do what feels good to us, thats just the way it is. If it feels good do it. God wants to know will we sacrifice what we want for what he wants. read Luke 18:18 to 18:25. What will you give up for Christ?
"Salvation is about pleasing God, not man." To me, this means "being in the world, but not of it." Jesus said that we were with him before the foundations of the world. In other words, we were all together... and, at that time, we were not humans -- we had no bodies. On the deepest level, we are spiritual beings that chose to inhabit a human body and live the experience. Our true self lives forever.
And so, pleasing God may be that which is pleasing to our own spiritual natures. Living a life in which we overcome the ego mind of fear, arrogance, judgment, self-righteousness, and separation from God and others. We know we have left ego-mind behind when we no longer hear incessant inner chatter. Judgments, assessments, excuses....
"What would you give up for Christ?" Strange question. I suppose the ego -- or, living a life in which we live in the world and then insist that it is the only existence that is real. Things are never as they appear to be... and so we know very little, except that which we experience. How can you really know any thing else for sure?
My world view isn't as bible-centric as yours. They bible was compiled by the Catholic Church. Books (scrolls) were left out, edits made. If you don't experience God (or Spirit), all you're doing is memorizing words from a book. I'm weary of people quoting scripture. I do it to make a point, and I usually quote it to bible-centric people.
I've been speaking in tongues (biblical) for forty years. All it is is channeling the Spirit. The other side. The unseen realm. Maybe even my own Spirit-self that is one with God.
Back to homosexuals and heaven... don't worry about it, original poser of the question. Others will always judge and throw scripture at you. Heck, in the bible it says that beings came from the sky and coupled with the human female. Bet ya don't hear that one in bible school!
Don't fret. There is always forgiveness. Only humans don't forgive. That said, I have found that Christians believe all kinds of stuff based on someone's interpretation of the Bible -- a book that was compiled by a bunch of old Catholic men sitting around together, including one scroll here and deleting another scroll there. These were men living in a time when it was okay to stone women, so they weren't too fond of including scrolls where women were the heroines. The Catholic Church was infiltrated by men who commonly molested young boys and men. This is fact, not fiction, and the remnants of that sexual preference are still seen today in the church's scandals. Yes, all have sinned. If only non-sinners went back to God, "heaven" would be a lonely place. I say to all of you, give up the childish view of God. Quit putting the Infinite, the All-That-Is in a tiny box. The bible has been interpreted and re-interpreted ad nauseam -- even as the bible itself says it must be above private interpretation. Figure that? How can anyone read something and not try to figure it out and then talk and write about it? Maybe, by some chance, it was meant to be read and reflected upon -- not made into religions whose main purpose is to control people.
One thing is very important to know that the homosexuals are not manufactured by human being. The man born as a homosexual.It is the creation of God..If the religion accept or not accept. It does not matter.
Religions are a part of politics. Lot of things are added by the religious scholars. God never says any things. God do not do any mistake.. So. it will be the great honour for the Scholars of all religions to accept the homosexual and use the respectable word to please them as well as God.
It is the universal truth.
Wonder if there are gaybars or gay nightclubs in "heaven"? or maybe an annual gay parade!
Wouldnt make heaven much of a paradise for homophobics would it.. lol
Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed by the wrath of God because of people's sinfulness devoid of remorse or repentance, theirs became an evil habit and it has been like living in hell, with the absence of God in their filthy minds. Hence, their guilt remained in them, deserving of God's wrath. It was hell they were living in, it's hell they deserve. But we have a forgiving God who is slow to anger, as he allows us to commit mistakes and gives us a chance to correct these mistakes or faults. Whatever we may do against our neighbors, with malice in our hearts, we will be answerable to God, and God will repay, in his wrath out of our disobedience, as in Numbers 14:18, and in Romans 12:14-21. Even in this lifetime we may experience how he manifest his anger upon us in a lot of ways we may not even notice. He does not tolerate evil as it is an insult to his goodness. We just see ourselves into trouble when we sin, or see things happen not in our favor, or against our expectations. Remember, we cannot hide anything from God as he is all knowing. You may not notice it but in many ways, he usually makes his presence felt, especially for believers, and often times, he uses other people in your life to make you feel that he is watching you and whatever happens, it is God's will and God's plan for you based on your actions or reactions. And when you do good for others as you show your love and concern for people around you, you feel happy and blessed. When you are in Christ, you know that it is God's plan for you. Counting your blessings than your hurts make you grow spiritually mature, as you see the goodness in thanking and praising him in all circumstances. Gay, lesbian or not, if you sin with malice and in lust, God will repay, until you learn to renew your life and follow the light of Christ, whence, you may see true peace and happiness in your life.
please tell me cooldad, why would that affect you in any way? You are not a gay person & you don't believe in God. I do not understand the questions you posed, It seems that your question is based on inaccurate data from the Bible(quoted text defines the translated consequence as an abomination, not mortal,no return, no forgiveness sin). This was also in the Old Testaments time period. If we had been there,we would remember that it was not a stable & secure era with very few rules to live by.
All the time used by so many to promote negativity,condeming groups of people & preaching against friend or family member spawning hatred & grief. These people say they are Christians?? The Christians I know spend their time motivating people to have more positive thoughts about themselves and others. So they can help each other and put unconditional love back in their own relationships.
I find it is very sad to spend time supporting discrimination based on incorrect definitions, spite, & misunderstanding. If this is important to you, and you really need to know...pray about it:)
This time I appear as a massanger of love and to remove your doubt of going to heaven or not. The great Creator is your master. He gives you feeling. It is your body and you can use according to your satisfaction. The master never enterfare in your decision. Enjoy your life without asking or to know , what will be after the death.
Do not go in mystical stories. Once we are on this earth and let us see what happen after death. Do not worry. love is the main destination and satisfaction of life.
The question IS... if heaven is full of extremely conservative, fascists Christians, do homosexuals even want to be there?
GOD makes it very clear how HE sees Homosexuality. i know there are many homosexuals that attend churches just for them...i often wonder how they get around that, perhaps they simply cut it out of their bibles altogether or translate it to mean something else. they do not worship GOD in their churches...they worship a self made image of HIM...on that allows them to live the lifestyle the desire without consequences.
No, you make it clear what you believe about homosexuals and hide behind a myth to support homophobia "nicely" is the truth of the matter.
God also make it very clear how he sees adultery, divorce, working on the sabbath, fornication, obedience to your parents, respect of the elderly, assisantance to the widowed or poor, making any type of graven image, and a variety of other things, that christians disregard every single day and still claim to be "going to heaven".
So how is this any different?
I prognosticate the world will end before you get an honest answer to those excellent points.
To be honest...I really don't expect an honest answer. I expect to see excuses and attempts to justify. Or to be told that I am taking things out of context and need to be a believer to understand "God's will".
We may need to pray for an honest religionist to stand up and be counted.
I must say I have seen a lot of dishonesty in these religious threads, and almost no answers to legitimate questions, just excuses and side steps to avoid.
Need sleep. Now missing for 8 hours or so. Goodnight, and may the gods be with you all.
you are so very right. this is what i mean when i say people worship a self made image of GOD...if they worshiped the true GOD, they would live in obedience to HIM...instead, they live as they please and make justifications that allow them to do so without guilt. or as my dad once told me..."God never expected us to obey the ten commandments, they were just supposed to be a guideline". well, i dont believe GOD is a waster of HIS time...besides, how many times does HE or CHRIST say "If you love ME, keep MY commandments." CHRIST also said "If a man say I love GOD, yet hates his neighbor (fellow man) then he is a liar, and the truth is not in him...if you cant love your neighbor whom you can see...how can you love GOD...whom you cannot see? what is "loving your neighbor, or fellow man"? it means to love them as GOD loves us...unconditionally, if one does that they wont be committing crimes against them. we may not love/approve/condone the sin people commit...but we must love the people.
I was brought up with the faith that God loves the "sinner" but not the "sin." Given that, I also believe that throughout history the natural world controls population growth by arranging that a certain percentage of the population is "homosexual." This happens in the animal kingdom as much as in humans. To an extent, I suppose it could be a choice, but most of the time it seems that those who "come out" believe that they have always known the nature of their emerging sexuality.
In my faith development, God is the creator of all nature, and if God has determined that a certain percentage of the population will be homosexual, then why would"she condemn what s/he has created that way s/he has created "it."
No, I do not believe that anyone that has determined their sexuality to be in the least bit homosexual (inc. bi, trans...etc.) is condemned by nature of what they are. I believe that the nature of our hearts and the choices that we consciously make either redeem us or condemn us as people.
Homosexual behaviors are no more sinful than other sins. The key is in the heart. If a person who has been engaging in homosexual behaviors prays to God with a heart that admits these behaviors were wrong, that he is sorry for doing them, that he asks God to tranform his heart to take these desires away from him, he will certainly be forgiven and have a clean slate.
God loves the humble but He is hard against the proud and rebellious. Therefore, if the attitude is "I have done nothing wrong" "The Bible is wrong" "I am proud of these behaviors and plan to keep on doing them" then no. But that is the same for other habitual sins, such as adultery. People who habitually sin and are unrepentant about it—or worse, actually proud of it—are separated from God.
Exactly. You summed it up nicely James.
Amen, James you are right. If one is judge by one own heart then is he/she going to heaven? Sin is sin. No men is without sin. The only difference between Christrain and nonchristian is that we Christian made Christ Lord of our life. We try to obey God as best as we know how to but we can fail at times. So a homosexual can be a proclaim Christain but sooner or later will have to ask God to forgive him/her to get into heaven. Cooldad I do not really think you will like this answer but it is what it is.
I think we just have to wait and see if we actually get there ourselves.
First I will thank you. I wrote my six hubs after I reading your question. Sin is sin in Gods eyes that why he had to provide a way for us to come to him. Jesus, God only begotten son died on the cross to cover our sin with his blood. No men is without sin but God do not want any men to go to hell. See God do not judge men sin by the law but by our heart. It will be our heart that will get us into heaven or hell. The law is there to guide us along the road to heaven. In fact Christ said that love is the greatest commandent. So those of us who call ourself Christain need to dish out compassion to all sinners even those who hate us. The only thing that make me a Christian is Jesus is my lord, I am a sinner too.
I do not believe in Hell other than what we put ourselves through here in the physical world. I believe we all have a right to be here and enjoy and experience what there is here and if that is another person of the same sex then so be it. I have many gay and lesbian friends and family members and full support their healthy relationships the same as non-gay people. They are all the same to me.
I agree. We all have friends. Their sexuality is their business. Apart from family and friends who are homosexual, I probably have many associates who are homosexual as well.
I wouldn't know, it's not the sort of thing that comes up amongst associates and others. Not important.
Decency, is important, good moral and business practices all matter, so this focus on someone's sexuality seldom takes place in my world at least.
No one cares..
May be homosexuals will go to homosexual's Heaven. Ha Ha! what a question?
That would depend on ones concept of God and Heaven.
Concepts can often create a belief that becomes very powerful, in that, what one believes one can conceive eventually.
The Bible was written and rewritten by man. Who is to say it was not a personal prejudice of the writer. We will never know.
Sexual preference in my view is irrelevant except to those who have either a curious mind or mindset that has been conditioned to accept people only like themselves.
There are hetro sexuals that prefer sex in a certain way and are not condemned for their preferences. More importantly though their sexual practices are rarely if ever scrutinized as much as gay people.
If you want a Biblical answer, the short answer to your question is yes. Homosexuals can go to heaven just like murderers and rapists and good people can go to heaven. We are all saved by God's grace. It is a free gift from God. By definition, grace is something you can't earn or work for. The only "work" involved is reaching out your hand to accept it. Jesus died on the cross for all our sins, and it's like getting a check in your mailbox for a billion dollars. But in order for that check to be worth anything, you'd have to cash it.
Now here's the thing. The Bible says that if we break one commandment, we are guilty of breaking them all. It's like hanging by a chain over a cliff. It doesn't matter which link breaks, you're going to plummet to your death. The issue is not a matter of being a homosexual or not, it is a matter of being a sinner who has fallen short of God's perfect standards. While the Bible definitely condemns homosexuality, it is just like all other sins. It's a manifestation of our fallen, imperfect nature. We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners. It is our sin nature that disqualifies us from heaven, not the expression of that nature, may it be in the form of homosexuality, murder, fornication, or whatever else you can think of. Look at it this way. When you see that "check engine" light go on, turning off the little bulb behind it won't fix the problem. Just like "quitting" homosexuality won't get you to heaven.
But when you truly accept Christ for who He truly is and what the Bible says He is, everything will fall into place. That check engine light will disappear. Will you be sinless? Absolutely not. The difference is that whereas before you had a blast being a sinner, you will now struggle with it. For a homosexual or any other sinner to accept God's forgiveness, it begins with accepting that what they are doing is in fact sin and is against God.
In the end, it is not lack of scientific evidence or anything of the sort that prevents people from believing the Bible, but it is their unwillingness to bow down to a God who is above them and has the power to judge and condemn.
The bible is written my man, a long time ago. It's a set of made up rules that have the intent of control of people. Some of it's content is good, sensible advice. Rules that make a community a good place to be.
However, a very large portion is outdated and inapplicable in modern life. It's also all very open to interpretation and people view homosexuality in different ways.
I'm not suggesting that the good book be rewritten, but in today's society sexuality, amongst other things, need to be treated in a different light to what is portrayed in the bible.
I am a Christian and I believe that many misunderstand who is and who isn't going to go or not go to heaven. Christianity is not about do's and don'ts! That's the law, and Christ removed the law by fulfilling it in Himself. Now we are under grace and going to heaven isn't about tasks, it's about "relationship" with Him. If you receive the gift of Christ and what He did for all mankind...you become His child. The rest of your life consists on building that relationship with communication, and being Fathered by the Lord. Just as our children are imperfect and don't listen to their parents....they don't get kicked out of being our kids when they do...they add sufferings that parents don't want for their children...but they never lose their place as being our children. I believe the same for this situation....many confused, rebellion, and imperfect children of God will all go to heaven. Our perfection is not in ourselves but the accomplished work of Christ that gets us in and keeps us in. Our job here on earth is to learn of His love, and live in it mistakes and all. It's not about do's and don'ts...it's about life and death. In Him is life! :>)
As a Christian here is my opinion based on reading the Bible. Which means not just reading what the church teaches, but reading the book itself.
Do homosexuals have any chance of getting into heaven? First and foremost nobody has actually gone to heaven, except for Jesus. Nowhere in the Bible does it say we go to heaven when we die.The only person that is immortal is God himself. 1 Timothy 6:16. 36 times the Bible talks about us going into a deep sleep, but again nowhere does it say we go to heaven, but of course we are taught this in church. I believe it is a way to gave us peace when our loved ones are gone.
In God's eyes, is being homosexual any more different than being an adulterer or killing someone? This question has many questions in it. A person cannot compare homosexuality to an adulterer or murder, they are all completely different entities. In God's eyes however a sin is a sin, but all of us fall short of the Glory of God. So all of us are sinners in some form. Judging is a sin, blasphemy is a sin and the list goes on.
Can homosexuals also be forgiven? Of course they can be forgiven, all of us are created in God's image. All of us are God's children.
It is interesting to hear Christians talk about sin, judging and what their God thinks. I would suspect they're wrong anyways.
God might get a serial killer placed in front of him for judgment and find that the killer had a physical disability in his brain and couldn't help himself, something only God would know, so He would just remove the disability and allow the killer into heaven.
If He's a loving God, He would also look upon the homosexual with love knowing that person did no wrong in their lives and never tried to intentionally hurt anyone.
A hateful God would treat each sin equally no matter what the circumstance and dole out his wrath upon them all.
See how easy it is to think for God?
They won't go to heaven or hell. There is no such thing.
Good people will go to hell. Good people do bad things too. Choosing a lifestyle that goes against God's word can certainly end in Death. The thing about sexual sin that differs from all others is that it is within our bodies, not outside. If you decide to read God's word, which I strongly suggest, you will find He forgives anyone who accepts His free gift, no matter what they have done; That gift is eternal life through placing your faith in the work of Jesus. You can't earn it, it's free. It is worth the time to re visit the Bible for many of us received bad information as children, or somewhere in life. The truth of God's word will pierce the hardest of hearts. It is powerful. You have nothing to loose and everything to gain. Don't believe me check it out for yourself. Have you ever thought,"why would the disciples be horrifically murdered, all but one, just for saying what they believed in"? They caused physical harm to no one, yet died for their faith. Why, was someone scared they were right?
It seems like your god is the one that is scared, and insecure to the point of insanity.
From the book of "love":
"I will sweep away everything in all your land," says the LORD. "I will sweep away both people and animals alike. Even the birds of the air and the fish in the sea will die. I will reduce the wicked to heaps of rubble, along with the rest of humanity," says the LORD. "I will crush Judah and Jerusalem with my fist and destroy every last trace of their Baal worship. I will put an end to all the idolatrous priests, so that even the memory of them will disappear. For they go up to their roofs and bow to the sun, moon, and stars. They claim to follow the LORD, but then they worship Molech, too. So now I will destroy them! And I will destroy those who used to worship me but now no longer do. They no longer ask for the LORD's guidance or seek my blessings." (Zephaniah 1:2-6 NLT)
Nasty psychotic little god!
No one was scared they were right. Some factions of early Christianity were like Muslims are today, fanatics and terrorists as far as the Roman Empire was concerned,. and they denied all the Roman gods which was a problem.
They were subversive. By denying the other gods they were thought to make the other gods angry and thereby threatened Rome.
They were heretics. Later Rome would take it over and start calling everyone else heretics and murdering them.
Religion is politics. Nothing good can ever come of it.
Has anybody seen sexual contact of Male+Male or Female+Female among Animals ? -NEVER.
It is Not Natural. Humans despite being most intelligent searched/invented/discovered This anti natural process.The thing which is against the nature would be Punished,Not rewarded certainly.
On the Other hand I think that homos are already experiencing the hell,Probably they can fill requisition farm for Heaven.....
Actually, the male+male, female+female is fairly common among animal species. Particularly some species of monkeys. Natural selection mate.
Hi Hollie, Those monkeys might have seen Humans and monkeys are famous to copy...................... !!!!!
I think you might find that humans are indeed of the primates. Therefore, it is unlikely that same sex relationships between certain species are a result of copying. Rather, natural selection. Perhaps then we need to open our minds and consider the fact that homosexuality is not unnatural, not at all. Mother nature has demonstrated this to us.
Yes it is as common as mud.
Almost as common as ignorance and stupid homophobes.
Yes, unfortunately, gay men and women do experience, and often live in hell, ignorant and stupid people inflict this on them. It's commonly known as homophobia, gay bashing and denial of equal rights.
ive got the answer to your question .........they willl sadly go to hell BUT , there is this guy name jesus christ who died for our sins ...that means yes he will forgive you no matter what you did or who you are .No you cant go to heaven as a homosexual but he will help you change that .and no in gods eyes being a homosexual is no different than being an adulterer or a murderer.there is no degree in sin in his eyes..even the thought of adultery is the same as commiting audletry.this is no opinion but a fact in christian belief.
The nature of God is pure Holiness. In God's presence NO sin can be tolerated. Giving in to homosexual urges is a sin and no different than committing adultery, or the other sexual sins. Only those whose sins have been forgiven will enter God's heaven. For those who desire to continue in lifestyles against God's plan and refuse to accept his forgiveness for those sins, they have indirectly chosen hell!
"The Kingdom of Heaven" ... heaven .. paradise ???
I don't think that these are (all three) the same place!
according to what scripture says .... there are only 144,000 who have not sinned; "These" are the only people that are raptured and follow Jesus wherever he goes.
All of the rest that have repented of their sins are allowed into heaven, but not allowed into the the KINGDOM of heaven.
And then there is Paradise.
I must admitt, I can not argue, this can be said to be ... "just my intrpretation"
This particular viewpoint of yours, sounds like it is coming from a Jehovah Witness standpoint. When I wrote about going to heaven, I was giving the biblical version of heaven. God has clearly opened heaven to all forgiven and redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ. Actually, the bible says that a new heaven and earth will be created for his saints and the new heaven will be called "New Jerusalem".
Well, this is what I think, and this is kinda hard, so don't read on if you don't want to start a war with me. Thanks!
I believe homosexuals will go to Hell if they don't turn from being homos and become straight Christians. So, there is hope! You just have to take that hope and act upon it!
If God made men he or she made gay people.
Should God go to hell when dies?
Hmmmm, two philosophical points in your reply. God could be a woman? And, should God go to hell when he dies? Very interesting. I always thought God was exempt from Hell.
No God isn't exempt from hell, because Jesus is said to have descended into hell for three days after the crucifixion.
God is our Mother and Father. The religions tried to obliterate the feminine principle of God. Jesus spoke of God as father -- and not mother -- because in his time everyone would have laughed at him and rejected his ideas. In his time, women were non-persons, they were stoned, left to die, they had no rights. Men had all the power, and so God had to be seen as male. Jesus spoke so that they might understand -- he even said this.
Jesus died once for all, never to die again. That would make him human.
Sure, his dying meant that Jesus was human, but he rose from that death and was seen alive after his death, that is the part that amazes us and sets him apart from other humans. That is also the part that makes him God....
Sorry, and you don't see anything wrong with someone who was claimed to have risen from the dead? You swallow it hook, line and sinker?
It shouldn't amaze you, it should raise a lot of red flags.
Jesus was seen by over 300 people after his death. His disciples wrote about this, as they were all eyewitnesses... I'm sure, not all 300 were delusional ! Besides, Jesus predicted his own death and resurrection. Jesus came to our world knowing that he would die for us, all so we could be forgiven and live eternally, instead of be lost eternally.
How many people are absolutely sure they've seen Elvis or Tupac after their deaths?
That is an obvious lie.
Maybe, but most likely they were lying, just like many Christians do here.
So, a fairy tale man predicted his own fairy tale ending?
I don't want anyone dying for me, that is just so horribly wrong. I am not lost eternally so I don't need to be forgiven.
GOD is Master of all...in the end all must answer to HIM...including hell...
King James Version (KJV)
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
God made all men but he did not made our choices. He gave us free will we make our choices to sin or not to sin. Our brain is not prewire to be homosexual but we can wire our brain to be homosexual by our choices. Look at the research in brain when someone injured the brain it can rewire itself. There are also research that show that the brain can rewire itself to take on task that it was not wire to do. God have made men to be able to do any task he/she choices. It is up to us to make the right choice not God.
God has given us the Ears to Listen and Nose to smell.We can not listen from nose and can not smell from ears, where as in the homo case the are misusing their organs...
No! God is a man (it states in the Bible), and God did NOT make homos. God made man and woman. Sin made man and woman gay, that's all to say 'bout that.
Being homosexual is NOT a sin. There is nowhere in the bible that states it is. Humans make their own rules in order to lord it over others.
You, celafoe and Galaxy Rat, or wrong in your assumptions out of ignorance and prejudice. If you are true to the teachings of the human being, Jesus, then you will open your minds and explore other ways of understanding you fellow humans, without first applying faulty judgement.
They will be in a different heaven then the fundies. There will be fruity drinks, techno music, and decent decorating. The fundies will have Newt Gingrich, Lawrence Welk, and 24 hours a day of "It's a Wonderful Life" Orange shag carpet and twin beds for everyone!!!
I wish I was a believer, that sounds like a blast.
Love the sound of it - 'hell be it!' I guess God will be very dissapointed in me...
Heaven will be great. No more sorrow and surffering. The lame will walk, the blind will see, the deaf will hear, the mute will talk. No pain, no sickness, no hatred. Heaven will be all we think of and more. Heaven is when we humen will have the relationship that was ment for us to have before men fail. No men will not be angel in heaven but humen in a new body. That why Christains want to go to heaven.
no, the human experience ends at the creation of the new heaven and earth, the new body is not human
Your latter sentence I can agree with, I.e., not human. Yet all of your assumptions are based upon a totally unprovable, indescribable "spiritual" existence. All your interpretations of those 'scriptures,' are based upon what you choose to believe and what appeals to your mental constructs.
Go ahead, preach and teach your understandings - but if you are truly honest you will declare that it's all your personal take on things, and each listener is free to accept or reject your ideas without any judgements one way or the other.
of course they will get to Heaven...
they will just chose to enter through the back gates
Honestly, I'm sure there is an answer and only God knows it. My personal belief is that if you are saved and doing your best to live a good life you are in the door. If I was God, I'd be pretty damn tired of the whole debate by now.
works, or good deeds alone is not what saves. there is only one way to obtain salvation...by accepting JESUS CHRIST as the Son of GOD. by accepting HIS gift of redemption. even then it is possible to lose salvation...it is as easy for your name to be erased from the book of life as it was to be placed there in the first place. if you dont take GOD at HIS word and obey HIM...then you dont love HIM nor worship HIM...you worship a self made image of HIM that allows you to live and think as you please, regardless of what GOD may have said about it.
Oh, please. King David committed so many atrocities, but God loved him and chastised him...and he did not lose his salvation.
To an extent, accepting God's gift of salvation is at least somewhat connected to our deeds. We cannot have faith that we are saved and not show compassion to at least one other human in our lives. So, I think it is both our acceptance of God's salvation and our deeds that determines where our souls go in the afterlife.
Why is it that so many people use the salvation thing to try to control what others think? They act like if someone doesn't think or act like them, they are doomed. I believe in a creator who loves us the way we are.
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
this proves one can lose their salvation.
According to Jesus all that is needed to gain access to heaven is a belief in Him.
Actions don't matter, asking forgiveness doesn't matter. Only belief and a homosexual can certainly believe.
Actually, what Jesus supposedly said was according to the guy, who heard it from another guy, who interpreted it from something written by another guy, who didn't like the way it was made up, and therefore......
Actually, 2 of the Gospels were eyewitness accounts, and the other two were directly from Peter(an eyewitness)'s information about Jesus.
Actually, you are wrong again, Jacob. Geesh, where did you learn the origin of your favorite guidebook, in church? It's the absolute worst place to learn about the origin of your bible, you know.
The actual writers of the gospels are unknown and are considered to be anonymously written at least 30 years to several centuries after the death of the supposed Jesus person. Why do you think the Gospels are prefaced with "according to"? Or perhaps you think the eyewitnesses waited for a couple of hundred years before writing down the "miracles" they witnessed?
Actually the bible was written within the lifetime of the eyewitnesses. Besides that are you aware that there are over 25,000 documented archeological finds that substantiate the people, places and things referred to in the Bible. Sure, I originally learned about the bible in church, but further study outside the church, as you would do for anything else sheds more light on the truth.
Yahshua (Jesus to you) never taught it took belief in him, and nothing else to do. That's what Paul taught
People are born gay and have no control over it
John 14:6 and John 6:40
Simple google search. Apparently, he did make that claim.
Yahshua never spoke of himself, he spoke of God
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
I wouldn't get into an argument with you as to who, and what, Yeshua was. I was simply pointing out that he did, indeed, make the statements you said he didn't. The statements you quote do not negate them.
I know, he is God to you, and I won't argue that rubbish
I'm agnostic. I think all religion is rubbish. Doesn't mean I haven't read your texts. I know you will all bicker amongst yourselves, I just like to see it kept honest.
Yes. To an extent. The conversation with Deborah began because she stated that Yeshua never made a statement that is easily found in the text. Her claim was made either from a stand of ignorance, or dishonesty. I was simply pointing out to her that the statement had been made. She attempted to refute the proof and failed.
Now now refrain from name calling after all I didn't call you an IDIOT just because you don't agree with me.
My statement was that Yahshua never said we just have to believe and didn't have to do anything else.
And you talk about honesty.
Read it again
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/80301?p … ost1735941
Like I said
Yahshua was speaking of God not himself.
Funny how people take things out of context, and believe what they want an disregard what they don't agree with.
If Yahshua told the truth, then the next statement he made was not a lie.
I don't bicker, I just state what I know and your dislike of me burns
Eagle kiwi had a point. Everyone speaks what they believe to be the truth. Unfortunately, among the religious the truth is more in line with what you want to see, than what is there. If the point you are arguing were written in stone the christians would agree with you. They obviously don't. No amount of wishful thinking on your part will change that fact.
And, it has been my experience that the religious insist that they are being persecuted when people disagree. This exchange being no different. Why are you attempting to make it personal? I have nothing against you, other than the fact that you appear to feel compelled to continue this exchange for simple argument's sake.
We are off topic. I believe the last time we spoke you were adamant that you didn't approve of this type of behavior. Open a thread if it's that important to you to argue the reasons you interpret the text to suit an agenda. People do it all the time.
Talk to me, not about me.
I think you are looking for trouble. You're in the wrong neighborhood. EK responded to my post. I was explaining for her benefit. It was in the direct vicinity of our ongoing conversation, so there was no doubt that it was understood that you would read it. Drop the chip.
Yes we are justified before God by the grace of Christ, and we receive that grace through faith. But that faith, if it does not produce good works, then it is not a genuine faith.
"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." James 2:26
If you genuinely accept Jesus as your LORD and Saviour, then you will (out of love) delight to obey his Law, because you know this makes Him happy.
"If ye love Me, keep My commandments" John 14:15
This obedience has no merits, but, it is evidence that you have accepted Christ (faith in Christ).
And since the judgement nessesitates evidence, then the evidence that Christ will show to the universe that indeed you have faith in Him, is your obedience to His Law.
"So speak ye and so do as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty" James 2:12
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgement, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." Ecclessiastes 12:13-14
"Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." Revelation 22:14
So, we are justified by faith (tree), but judged by our works (fruits). A good tree will always produce good fruits. In the judgement, Christ will reveal your works before the universe to show them whether your faith in Him is genuine or not.
So true. You have stated it right. The Truth will not be love by all. Sin is Sin. God love all but he cannot allow sin to go unpunish. No good parent would allow his/her child to run out into a busy street. God like all parent do not want any harm to come to use but we have free will. If we have no free will we would be no better then angels when they fail they are doom to hell. God loves all and we should love all as well. Love will bring more to heaven. Is not love what we all want?
This is absolute bunk in my view. No harm? What planet do you live on? A billion prayers a day and half the world starving. I guess they are all the "sinners"
This sort of intellectual imbecility should have disappeared a thousand years ago.
I agree. But furthering the analogy, I only try to raise my own children. I do not (usually) tell other peoples children what to do. I certainly don't tell other people's children who to love (since I don't tell my own children who they should love, this is a given)
Who are you to judge another master's servant? If that master is Allah, Budda, or even just ones own intellect, then it is beyond the scope of Christian judgement, rules, or opinion.
Christ made that exceedingly clear, I believe.
I am not telling you should love one person then hate another person. But if we love each other like Jesus did we would love all. Christian faith is base on the Bible. Christian mean Christ likeness. Christ help all who came to him. He also was teaching that the way of the world was wrong.
I'm not sure I believe that. I think that Christ meant that we are to believe in him to the point where we do as he did: Believing as doing. He was/is our teacher. And he told us to heal the sick with our hands and raise the dead, to love, and to direct our thoughts, etc. When asked about his miracles, he said: Greater things ye shall do. WOW! That's a tall order -- so, most people just worship him and forget the part about "putting on the new man" and reaching levels of great spiritual power. This is where religions have failed us. They make us powerless by not knowing what "putting on the new man" means. It is a HUGE leap in consciousness! If we were spiritually powerful, if we truly had dominion over the Earth, we would become like him. This is what is meant to happen. People play Jesus small, and God too. We were with Jesus before the foundation of the world, or so says the bible. We are so much more than our human minds can comprehend. We've played everything too small -- except the pain of living on Earth. We've made that our main occupation. Truly, we are mysterious creatures to ourselves. Jesus said that the Kingdom of God is within. Inside yourself, in that quiet, calm place where our minds stop chattering about all the trials and tribulations of living on Earth. Stop the chatter and you'll eventually hear your spirit speak. The spirit is our eternal self, the child of God. The true offspring. Jesus said: "Be IN the world, but don't be of it." We are spiritual beings having an Earthy experience in a body.
loving GOD is not about how powerful WE can become...we are nothing. we didnt and cant earn GODs love or HIS salvation...it is a gift. putting on the new man is not about becoming some supernatural powerful being...it is about overcoming your sinful nature, becoming CHRIST like...by CHRIST like i mean treating others with love and respect, loving GOD and obeying HIM...to the letter. if GOD sees fit to bless us with other gifts...that is HIS business. as paul said...not everyone has all gifts. for some their only gift is having empathy and compassion for their fellow man, for others it might be healing with a touch...but only GOD can say who has what gift and why.
@Jesus Saves....wonderful post...right on the mark.
if all it took was belief in CHRIST to obtain salvation, and if homosexuals only had to believe...then your statement would be true...however you are wrong...once we accept salvation, we must change from the old man to the new...put off the ways of the world, the sinful life we once lived...we dont accept salvation and then keep on living in sin, expecting GOD to just forgive us and save us...it doesnt work that way.
Well, I am not a christian myself, but how do you define belief? Belief and actions are tied. If you truly believe something, your actions will follow that belief. As a former christian, I know that a scripture that many reference is that the demons believe that Jesus is real and tremble also, so the "belief" they talk about isn't just intellectual, but applied. I believe in that principle, because it makes sense. I just don't believe the other stuff, anymore.
I don't think it's so much morality as stupidity. Good people killing bad people
where all the killers on either side, think they are the good ones. Can there be blame? Hell is reserved for morons.
--"According to Christian doctrine, Paul said there are a large number of people that don't get into heaven, including non-Christians, thieves, drunkards, (what some would interpret to mean) gays, etc."--
Maybe if, "gay", was used to mean happy.
How do you come up with these interpretations?
How do you get that, "drunkards", equals, gays as in homosexuals?
That is rich... bettter than the, "Eunich means homosexual", line.
You are a perfect example of Secular Humanist Biblical Scholarship, do you dismiss the super-natural aspects of the Bible out of hand? Ohh you just do not believe. Never mind then... you're simply biased from the go.
I could be wrong, but, I think that there is a big difference between heaven and, The Kingdom of heaven.
The kingdom is within. Learn to stop the chatter of your mind and be still, and you'll find the door. It takes time and loving discipline.
It also takes understanding which does not see personal growth as having anything to do with any god/s
Anyone getting their education about life from one book excluding other books and beliefs is learning nothing about themselves.
Why does anyone even make threads anymore, why not just immediately start calling each other stupid and telling everyone they are burning in hell?
How do I clean my floors?
Burn in hell you non-believer...If you believed in God they would clean themselves.
Review my hub?
Your hub sucks! Die you leftest pig!
Anyone from the San Diego Area?
Stop asking questions you ignorant fundy!
Leviticus 20:13~~If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
With verses like this, I really doubt that gays are welcomed in heaven!
He was speaking to the Levitical Priests, they were Temple conduct rules. A Priest couldn't do a lot of things a regular person could.
Thank you Deborah for pointing that out, honestly these passages that people quote are sometimes blown right out of proportion.
That's false in light of the surrounding passages that clearly show the rules are for everyone. The Bible makes note of the specific rules that are specifically for priests because of the duties of their particular vocation, as in Leviticus 21: 10: ".....he that is the high priest among his brethren........shall not....." etc.
Chapter 20 begins with the Lord tells Moses to "...say to the children of Israel..." and even "....of the strangers that sojoun in Israel,....." etc., following which He lays down all those rules including the one in verse 13.
I'm afraid not Brenda. There are Priests and High Priests. Two different positions that's why they are differentiated. These are all Temple Laws.
If we see the truth we see this is not a ticket to hate homosexuals.
It is how they are born and they can not change their nature.
It has been proven that certain areas in the brain of homosexual males are the exact same size of those in women and much smaller than a straight males
You must never let evidence get in the way of a good belief. Just because scientists, doctors and psychologists know that sexuality isn't a choice, will make little difference to the believer, because they have Jesus or Allah or Wotan of Zeus on their side. So, game, set and match, the religious win.
Nobody hates homosexuals!
Nobody hates..period (least its not posted here)
Ok I admitt it gets attention to post such untruth,causes a sensation, blah blah blah...but it just isnt so ,so there
As for the rest of your statement ,put up or ...shhh up
On a side note maybe my DNA says I should be slim and beautiful...boy am I mad at God
Deborah is right. Plenty of studies give evidence that people are born homosexual. I don't understand why this is such an issue with some christians.
You guys say it isn't hate, and I'm sure you believe that. But, it certainly does come off that way, to the casual observer. Why is that? Do you think?
It isn't that we're anti God as many of you have implied. There are plenty of people who believe in God posting here that don't agree with the anti homosexual stance.
It is an issue Emile because we have seen ,ok I have seen some information and it is not conclusive at all.
If you know something I dont ,Im open to seeing it
Why would you even question it Kiwi?
Proven or not, it is obvious that some people impose their religious beliefs that homosexuality is wrong, that is the real problem here.
For starters it is none of their damn business is it?
And by what authority do they condemn?
I have never questioned anyones right to do whatever they want ..but when they feel compelled to use medical authority,then why not post it..
God knows I have to post why I believe what I do
I guess I am adressing the people in question and not any individual homosexual
We can never see what we don't want to. If you are not open to the possibility that you aren't looking at this from an unbiased angle, nothing will change your mind. But, here. This article is from the Boston Globe and isn't pushing an agenda, imo. They just tell you the studies that were done and what the results were, and also what is still considered up in the air; in pretty plain english.
http://web.mac.com/ddjudge/ddjudge/Inte … %20Gay.pdf
There is also plenty of evidence that says Deborah is not right.
Several Universities all over the world present papers and a big number of them highlight the fact that genetics and environment also play a role,in predisposing one to homosexuality.
I wouldn't argue with you that different studies have come to different conclusions. This does not mean that some studies are wrong. It means that different questions were asked and different groups of people were studied. We are all unique. Anyone that says that there is one simple answer that can be applied across the board to everyone is ignoring this fact. There is concrete proof of biological differences for some. There are valid studies that show environment can play a role in some.
I grew up with two guys that are homosexual. They came out in college. I actually dated one of them in high school. I knew them throughout their early and late teens. I knew their families. I can see the environmental argument for one, and the biological argument for the other. But, whatever their reasons for being who they are; it is who they are. It is who they know themselves to be and it is how they found happiness. I was mad at them for years for not trusting me enough as a friend to be honest; but I have to be honest with myself and accept the fact that I may have somehow been a contributing factor in their fear of sharing.
Nothing in life is black and white. Insisting that there is one answer across the board and that answer is, in some ways, (whether you choose to see it or not) a condemnation of others because they don't 'believe' the same things we do is an affront to the sensibilities of those who fall into the category of what some percieve to be different. It is emotional persecution. Sure, no one is throwing real stones; but they are stones, nonetheless.
If you've ever been excluded, made to feel as if you don't fit in, treated as lower class for any reason that you felt was unfair; that is persecution. Multiply that 7x70 and that is how someone who is forced to live with a stigma of being percieved as different feels from the time they wake up, until they go to bed. Multiply it 70x700 and that is how they feel when someone with religion says God did not make them who they are, can't love them for what they are; when they are being honest with themselves and living in line with you they know themselves to be.
God is a powerful concept. When those who claim a relationship and share their idea of knowledge; if it isn't wrapped in complete and unadulterated love and acceptance it is not a word. It is turned into a weapon. I don't understand why those that claim faith can't see this. They claim God made them and accepts them in all of their imperfections; but find 'valid' reasons why others can't make the same claim.
I have often said the same thing ,just in fewer words
I also think its a personal decision accepting or rejecting Christ.I agree totally with you that life is not black and white,however Gods word does seem to be quite clear on certain issues. (Not just homosexuality)
How that is percieved ,once again is up to the individual.
I guess if we wanted to ,we could all find evidence to back up our opinions/thoughts etc,such is the jungle of information online and perhaps personal experiences etc.
No, if you take a clear look at the posts of those who label themselves Christian; each has a personal opinion on what that means and what 'God's word' equates to. So, 'God's word' is not written in stone. The 'truth' is your perception of the words. The words you choose to incorporate into your belief structure. The ones you choose to use to back up your opinion.
You have come to your beliefs through personal experience and personally processing information. Not everyone who accepts Christ agrees with you, or anyone else for that matter. Your views are yours, and yours alone. Just as anyone else's are.
You can't claim it as a truth from God. Even though you claim the Bible as the inspired word there are passages that clearly contradict views where people feel the right to make judgment calls on how God feels about the actions of others.
No, the truth is always Gods word,but that is what has always been the contention for many years ,and not just on this forum.
If I share my personal opinions ,it is just that.
Yes Christians claim the Bible is Gods Truth. No secret there.
Do you claim otherwise Emile?
This may well be, but when it is shared as an opinion brought about by your relationship with a higher being; when you say God's word is clear on this; you are naturally perceived as attempting to add the weight of His opinion behind yours. As are all who lay claim to opinions through belief in their religious teachings.
Edit: Do I claim otherwise what? That the Bible is the word of God? How many texts claim to be revelation from God? How many of them disagree? How could anyone know?
I tend to think that, if there is a God, he isn't represented by any religion. I see no spirituality in any of it. It's too full of hatred and condemnation.
But for the born again Christians ,God is not just in a book or someone you hear about when you go to a wedding or funeral ,He is as much a part of their day as a best friend would be.
Least that is my experience and similar too many other Christian friends.
There is nothing wrong with sharing ones personal experiences if it helps the reader make sense of the scripture. Most people can read between the lines,and they also are quite capable of gleaning the facts for themselves.
Yes. We do read between the lines and glean the facts. That is why many so called 'followers of Christ' find themselves explaining themselves.
Words of condemnation were never used by the Christ, except when speaking to the religious. I consider him spiritual, so I don't consider words of condemnation associated with the spirit of his message, in any way.
I dont mind giving an account of what I believe when asked.
Its not a Christian thing,as you yourself contribute some very long posts, explaining ,analysing,sharing your thoughts
THERE is now therefore no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh.
You can't claim it as a truth from God. Even though you claim the Bible as the inspired word there are passages that clearly contradict views where people feel the right to make judgment calls on how God feels about the actions of others
Despite what religion or Christians have said and done in the past, who do you say God is Emile?
I didn't see your question about God. I can honestly say, I don't know. But I think God is the greater part of the whole. I think we all are a piece of it. I don't think there is retribution, per se, on a personal level for anything. But each moment we don't strive to be better and more accepting of every other piece of the whole; we pollute a tiny part of it. I believe that when we die our consciousness is absorbed back and it is our responsibility to strive to ensure it is good so the balance changes for the better with each physical death.
Very nicely put.
I think the answer to your last question is that they're too old to change their thinking on it. Some might even agree with you - they'd never admit it - but after 50-60 years of believing one thing, they've decided they're going to die with their myth.
Fortunately their children and grandchildren tend to think differently about it.
Not surprising that you would agree,since it mirrors your'e lifestyle.
However the next generation will also have to make similar decisions ,just like the one before us did. History bears this out.
Not quite. We're not talking about a lifestyle, but I'm not surprised you would use that word.
Again, it's a generational difference. Young people in your faith are more likely to accept homosexuality as a natural variant of human sexuality, than older non-religious people. Take what you will from that.
I learned the word, lifestyle here but you knew what I meant.
I stand corrected..which word would you prefer?
(I prefer Christian to Religious)
"Orientation" is the word that's generally used. "Lifestyle" can be applied to many different people who are straight or gay ("the straight-and-narrow lifestyle", "the biker lifestyle", "the adventurist lifestyle", etc.)
I said non-religious because other religions, notably Islam, have strikingly similar attitudes to Christian ones on topics like this. But it does seem to apply to Christians in this case (i.e. younger Christians being more accepting of homosexuality than older non-Christians and non-Muslims).
It is sad. I do think most people are more accepting of each other than Christianity allows them to show to the world. I hope, anyway.
Well said, Eaglekiwi.
lol @ the "mad at God" joke! He short-changed me too! I thought I should look like Michelle Pfeifer or Sharon Stone..... I can't figger out why I don't!!
well its noted Im sure, and Brenda , we will be saying
Move over Michelle and Sharon ,the Glory Girls are in the house!
I have my masters in nursing and work for a research and training hospital. Email me and I'll give you the number so you can call them and request a copy pf their studies.
A certain person in this thread has expressed hate many times in other threads
Put up or shhup??..you do sound like a christian
I have goggled other Universities and teaching hospitals ,but thanks for the email offer all the same.
Doctors,Scientists, then all the specialists in their field constantly research and research,updating information etc etc,but its called research for a reason-checking to find a system of facts.
It seems that even Scientists can not agree.
Sure, it's easy to agree on something if a holy book commands you to agree.
But, if we're trying to find real answers to hard questions, then it may actually take time, effort and resources to do so, in which the results and evidence may not be so easy to decipher and there may be disagreement. After some time though, the disagreement will become agreement as more evidence is brought forth.
The easy way out is to just open a holy book and bleat like sheep.
So why didn't you read this when I posted it?
Like our hospital, they used MRIs and Cat Scans to SEE the brain.
I found something on the internet about the size of brain parts in gay people
http://www.time.com/time/health/article … 38,00.html
Posted 19 hours ago
Here are two more about the size of brain parts
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co … 01038.html
A Quote by Dr. Rahman
"As far as I'm concerned there is no argument any more - if you are gay, you are born gay"
Dr Qazi Rahman
Queen Mary, University of London
Isn't it funny I found dozens (see below). Scientists don't use MRIs or Cat Scans either. Yes research is about finding facts and our hospital and many others found the facts about homosexuals.
It is about FINDING Facts
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en& … gle+Search
Sorry this does not support bias against gay people
A cat scan shows how likely a person is to becoming an athelete too-likely,if they choose it.
It is not very scientific to think they can tell who is a homosexual from a cat scan
I think that what is more revealing is Deborah is able to accept her proof from a qualified position as a nurse regardless of what any religion says.
Why do you need homosexuals to be other than born that way? Is it your religious beliefs Kiwi?
I take people as I find them and their sexuality is very low on the list of what I want to know about them personally.
I accept she works in the medical field Earnest,I dont question her employment ,just her ability to be objective.
No as Ive said before ,I dont care who does what,just dont ask for my opinion (not you personally) knowing full well my stand and then throw stones.
I say it the way I see it ,and I accept they say they way they see it
Getting back to what Deborah said though ,there are other studies that dont support that work.
Its too up in the air ,but like I said.
Different strokes for different folks
Thank you Earnest.
The truth is if God himself stood with them and said homosexuals are OK in his book, they wouldn't believe him because false Apostle Paul said it's not true.
LOL, is that what you got from what I said?
See if you don't understand my simple statement how can you understand scripture?
They don't do Cat Scans to see who is gay,. They do MRIs and Cat scans on gay people to see if their brains are different than heterosexuals, and they are.
Excuse me a minute
Oh boy I was right ,you are a nurse
No wonder you think medical research IS the Bible
Excuse me a minute
You are right not all scientist agree. Look at global warming. So anyone can take some research and say that homosexual is a choice other can take another research and say it is not a choice. I beleave that the Holy Bible is the Truth. There is many facts in the Bible that the writers of the Bible could not have know of. How would they know that the Earth is round or air have weight. We try to put God in a box but he does not fit. We Christian do not have all the answer. If you really have all the answer then let hear it. Can anyone with 100% say that Bible is just no more then a book of false information. Can you really say that we Christian follow a man that die becouse he only think he was God in humen form. I have was save when I was teenager and I am now 43 year old. I am still learning about God, Christ, and the Bible. How can a Christian or nonchristian put the God of this universe into a box. I can not even travel to the nearest star in my lifetime. So how can one man say he got the answer to God or the universe. All men knowledge from the first man until the end of time would not be enough to put men wits up against God wits. For those who say there no God or gods then what will happen to all when universe come to the end. I beleave we are souls that will be forever either in heaven or the great lake of fire (hell). The question is the Bible True or False? Not will a homosexual go to heaven or hell. Is God the beginning and the ending? Who is God? Can the universe begin with out the help of God? Can life on Earth begin without the helping hand of God. Please tell me how universe is place of order (Einstern pointed it out) if it came out of nothing. I know that one man cannot it all but then there is a truth somewhere. Why can it not be the Bible? So what is the TRUTH? I say it is the Bible. What do you say?
He wasn't actually speaking to the levitical priests exclusively.
verse 2 clears this up:
Again you shall say to the Children of Israel, whoseover he be of the children of Israel or of the strangers that sojourn.
God was talking to His children.. all 12 tribes of Israel and of course this means us today.
God does not change, he disliked homosexuality then and He still does today, the difference is, today he is more willing to forgive
they desire to change their ways; sincerely desire.
the scary thing is that the fundies take this crap literally!
I would rather live as if there WAS a God and die to find out that there WASN'T, then to live as if there WASN'T a God and die to find out that there WAS.
But if you worship the wrong god you may end up in hell anyway. You really haven't given this much thought have you? The different possibilities, I mean. There aren't merely two, you know.
Fundies! They never could figure probabilities.
Faith to believe when God said..
“I have loved you with an everlasting love;
I have drawn you with unfailing kindness.
I stand for something ,so I dont fall for anything
Perhaps EK. but some gamblers have full faith in a horse, before it loses the race to another horse. Just pointing the lack of logic some use to proclaim their faith is only one of two possible options.
True enough Randy:)
And I have faith every time I step onto a plane that the pilot will get me to where he says he will. ( And I dont even know the guy ,or have seen his creditials). Same with the surgeon,as I fall under a deep sleep.
Faith is described as things hoped for unseen and that about sums it all up
How are you by the way? its finally cooling down here ,Kiwigirl likes that alot.
That's not very intelligent.
If you lived your life in denial of all the other gods, what would you do if you found out one of them was real and your god was not?
That would be even worse than living a life believing in a god when no gods exist.
Really then that could mean that we all is doom. But then tell me how you know who you should worship? Why not the God of the Bible to worship? See if that is correct then we have no way to know who is God of this universe. That also mean we Christain are following a crazy man who said he was God in humen form. Do you not beleave that there is truth out there somewhere?
Do you have any idea how many crazy people as you called them followed a "christ" in biblical times? or how many "christs" there were?
I bet you would have trouble naming one, yet you claim the one that is biblical is the one.
The others were wrong too. It was a good way to keep yourself at the time. Get a bunch of followers to feed you.
You are right there were many who call themself Messiah. Even today you can find those who proclaim to be Messiah. Then the question is is there a son of God (Christ) that came to Earth to set menkind free. Therefore many proclaiming to be Messiah do not make the biblical Messiah to be false. Is this not about what is Truth? Let put it this way for those seeking the truth the Bible is a good book to study as well as other holy writting. Then let them decide what is the Truth. What you and I say really is two men with two views. For those who read this seek with an open mind. The truth is out there for those who seek it. I am a proclaim Chistain saying that God will let any who seek the truth know it.
Thank you for the polite and reasoned response Forrest.
The biblical Messiah I would suggest was a fateful set of circumstances. Perhaps several others had as much tenure. It would seem difficult to select a particular evangelical from the period who would be the one true son of god, as these messianic figures were all singing from the same song that had been sung by others many years before and recycled.
The current documentaries clear this up pretty well in my opinion.
We are either all doomed or not doomed at all. If there are many religions vying for your obedience and worship, then they are probably all false and none of their gods exist, including yours.
The only truth we can be sure of is the truth we find in ourselves and the world around us.
The old testament is invalid. Christ set us free from that. We are no longer in the age of law, but in the age of grace. To believe otherwise is to invalidate what Christ did.
The old testament is the source of your christian religion, and it's totally psychotic god is jesus's father according to all those who follow it.
OT is not the source of christianity... CHRIST likeness... there was no christ in the OT earnest or did you not thoroughly study it enough to notice that Christ is NT. So the source of CHRISTianity is NT .. NOT the OT.. because:
1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them (OT) for samples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
I gotta be careful when correcting those that have studied bible for 30 years when i've been at this for 2 yrs.
I know, I know! You are a genius and a legend in your own lunchtime who eats Hawking and Einstein for breakfast because you can make word soup from a bunch of recycled stories that have been told since ra.
You won't be needing my adoration after all.
Actually earnest, the stories have been told since Anu. Ra came much later.
And they have not changes much ..... Maybe God has worn many names trying to get our attention?
True, same story different language.
From Anu to Enki to Marduk to Ra to Zeus to Jupiter to Yahweh
Is it a copy cat thingie or just a sequal pt 1, pt 2, pt3 , pt 4 etc.?
I stand corrected. The Sumerians may have invented the first trinity.
So I guess Christ had to clean up the insane blunders of His foolish Father...who, by the way, created the universe!
Just how absurd can this BS get?
It wasn't a clean up it was a fulfillment and an ending to usher in something more effective. Still the judiac believers did not want to part from the law even after this drastic event.
We men got off track Jesus was here to correct men not God. No man can obey all the law we are only humen. So God have made it where we can be save through grace not through the law. Brotheryochanan you are doing well among by the worves of the untruth. It show me that you really love God. Yes 2 years as a Christian not a lot of time but your heart is in the right place. May God Bless you.
You have never been under the Levitical Law, but you are still under God's law..which will never pass away.
According to my Bible, if you believe that Jesus died for your sins and ask Him to forgive your sins and be Lord of your life, you are going to heaven.
Homosexuality is a sin, but it is no more or less than any other sin. None of us are perfect. We all have something we struggle with, and becoming a Christian doesn't change that. There are times that I snap at my husband or whatever. I try to do what is right, but sometimes I fail. When that happens, you ask forgiveness and try to do better in the future.
By the way, once you are saved, you are saved. You don't lose your ticket to heaven every time you screw up. And we all screw up now and then!
I hope that helps.
Wow, it's so much easier just to be an atheist. There is no arguing, no interpreting, no fighting. Just peace.
Atheists don't argue or fight with each other?
Of course atheists argue with each other, as arguing is so much a part of what makes us human. However, I have never heard of an atheist fly a plane into a building in the name of their lack of belief in God. Yet, throughout the centuries Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs have all killed each other in the name of their gods. Atheists are repeatedly criticised for not having a basis for morality, because it is suggested, that a lack of belief in a deity will turn us all into murderers. Yet, as the peace of religion has been the cause of so much hatred and death, I fail to see that the religious dare think they have the right to claim the moral high- ground. If hating in the name of Jesus or Allah is to be recommended as a sign of virtue, then give me immorality any day.
The religious will always say, don't judge religion by its followers. Yet what is a religion, if not a body of followers? A tree can only be judged by the fruit it produces.
Even the best tree, however, has stinking rotten fruit that falls from it and pollutes the ground below it. The worth of a faith shouldn't be judged by the worst fruit but the best.
That's really simplistic. You're arguing that people become bad because of religion, and because atheists don't have religion, they can't be bad. (Are you?)
The truth is that people can be bad. Religious people can ascribe their bad behavior to a religion, while atheists do not (they might ascribe it to another non-religious ideology, or none at all).
I agree religion doesn't automatically translate into virtue, but it doesn't translate into evil, either.
Hardly simplistic at all. Name me one war currently being fought in the name of atheism. Name me one terrorist who has blown up a packed bus in the name of atheism. Name me one plane flown into a building in the name of atheism. Name me one atheist who is prepared to die or kill in the name of their atheism. I'm sorry to have to disagree with you, but you are an apologist for religion, and I think it is necessary for people who aren't religious to point out the fact that the hatred we see on the news is at least 90% of the time in the name of religion. In fact, I see the need to point this out as a moral duty. Not to do so, would be ignoring the elephant in the room. Of course atheists can be the cause of great evil. Stalin for example caused the deaths and suffering of millions of people. Yet, he never did this in the name of atheism. Not once, did he say 'I shall kill people because I don't believe in God.' When the religious do evil, it is always in the name of their God and their faith, it is their religious ideology which is the direct cause of their decision to fly planes into buildings.
I am not saying for one moment, that all religious believers are evil, in fact the most aren't. What I am saying, is that the majority of the wars, violence, acts of terrorism happening in the world are in the name of religion. So, you can defend religion all you want, but you should recognise the damage that has been done over thousands of years, and which is still being done in the name of religion.
You say that the religious people who do bad, only ascribe their badness to religion, so you are therefore saying it cannot be blamed on their religion. I beg to differ. When sincere believing Muslims plant a bomb, they are doing it in the name of Allah. When Christian fundamentalists protest at the funerals of servicemen in the US, they are doing it in the name of Jesus. It is actually their religious belief which is the cause of their wicked actions. To pretend otherwise is not only simplistic, by obviously untrue.
So, to answer your question, yes I am saying that some people become bad because of religion. The Muslim converts, who are filled with hatred in the name of Allah, would not be filled with that hatred, if they hadn't converted. The Evangelical Christian who wants the death penalty introduced in the US for homosexuals, or who holds up signs at funerals, stating 'God hates fags' is doing so because of his/her religious beliefs. You can deny this all you want, but the evidence would suggest otherwise.
Nothing is done "in the name of atheism." The atheists who frequent this forum take pains to explain that atheism is not a movement or a formalized grouping, but rather a collection of people who simply don't believe. There is nothing binding atheists other than the fact that they don't believe. It would be just as silly to say nationalism is the cause of all wars, since no one has fought in a war in the name of non-nationalism.
As your Stalin example makes clear, atheists can still hold dogmas and dangerous ideologies without mention of a god. It would seem the problem are absolutist ideologies of all sorts, of which radical religions are just a part. Did Ted Kaczynski plant bombs in the name of a religion?
If religion impels people to do bad things, then why do a majority of coreligionists not feel impelled to do those same bad things? Why do the latter very often say their religion tells them to *not* do those things?
Besides, a lot of those things are stereotypes. Take a look at page 31 in this survey:
http://www.abudhabigallupcenter.com/Fil … LR_web.pdf
Muslim Americans are considerably more likely to believe that terrorist attacks against civilians are never justified than atheists. Higher levels of mosque attendance did not affect the likelihood of supporting terrorism.
There are many, many religious people (some here, in fact) that say that their religion makes them more likely to be better people: less likely to be violent, more likely to give to charity, more kind to their neighbor, etc.
As a gay man, believe me, I understand the resentment towards people who are most homophobic always using Biblical verses to justify their hatred. What I'm saying is that religion can be used to justify just about anything bad if you want it to.
Actually I love all people because God commanded it.
Christians dont make the rules ,but ought to be doing their best every hour of every day to follow Christs example,which is an ongoing daily walk.
Is it a cake walk ,of of course not
Are they perfect ,no,again
Humilty however doesnt mean lack of confidence and meekness is not weakness.
Sincere love is involuntary, an emotion you cannot control. It can't be switched on or off. Therefore, you cannot be commanded to love.
That's exactly right. You can not control what's in your head or heart.
What you can do is act a certain way. You can treat a neighbor as you would a loved one, or follow the golden rule and not treat anyone in a way that you would not want to be treated yourself.
Agreed, civility costs nothing, attempting to understand another requires a little patience, acceptance requires us to reflect and be honest about our biases, but love just grows. We have no real control over it, and why should we. Dare I say its one of the purest emotions.
My friend you keep coming in a circle about planes flown into building, acts of terror committed against innocents are all religious acts. Do you go to work daily, brush your hair, make your bed, all these things you do religously. A true follower of God and the only God are in a relationship not a religion. I am sick of being painted with the same brush that the unenlightened use when they try to explain why there is evil in the word. Truth be told and you admit this yourself. The perpitrators of the worlds great wars and war crime did it without a belief that they would be answerable to God, Atheists.
Most of the Liberal laws that are being past in the western world that are decaying the moral worth of society are being past by atheists. It is their lack of true belief, is the reason that we have absolute caos is the lack of a moral compass and their belief that there is no recompance to be answered to when Jesus comes again.
Keep bashing religion as long as you want, but don't keep pulling true believers into your argument, I relate to God because He is Love, not because He is a book of rules that have to followed reliously.
Humans screw everything up. We can't see reality for what it is. We interpret all we see through faulty eyes.
Then you pretended to ask a question ,you really had no interest in seeing it being answered..
No offense, but if you were truly at peace with your decision to be an atheist, you would not feel compelled to ask religious questions.
Actually, I enjoy listening to hypocrisy. I enjoy listening to religious people try to justify why another human being should or shouldn't be allowed into heaven just because of sexual orientation. Some say they are an abomination and can't get into the exclusive heaven club. Some say it's just a sin like any other and Jesus died for gays too and they can go to heaven.
Which is it? I thought the bible was your guideline, from the passages I've seen, gays should burn in hell. But remember, I don't believe any of that. It fascinates me that people do, it fascinates me how religious people judge one another. I ask religious questions, because the whole process is intriguing to me.
Puzzles me why a homosexual man or woman would even contemplate being in heaven in the first place?
Do you think when God said man should not lie down with a another man as with a woman to mean something other than that?
Why blame other Christians for what Gods word says?
Accept it ,Reject it.
But don't complain about it.
Kiwi, They feel convicted with the word of God, and take it out on the christians. Odd when we are falsely accused of being hateful.
Another "judgement" by those Jesus is said to have told "not to judge". How do you feel about the sin of gluttony? One almost never hears a sermon concerning this from the pulpit. I wonder if it's because many preachers and religious advocates are obese?
It's not unlawful judgement if it's true, Randy!
Who decides if it is true, Jakob? Only christians, or do others have a say so too?
Sure. I'll invite psycheskinner here, since she/he seems to have a conscience. Or would you rather that none with a conscience come to this discussion?
Are you judging me as not having a conscience, Jakob? This is similar to Woman of Courage calling me "childish and immature" because I ask a question she is reluctant to answer. I care not who you invite to this discussion, Jakob. I'm not frightened to answer questions or ask them, for that matter.
I got that (false) accusation, too. But she admits to liking having a persecution complex, so maybe that's why she invents those sorts of things.
I don't know about the truth in the linked statement you provided, Jason. She scuttles off pretty fast when she doesn't want to answer questions with answers not favoring her opinions.
Nothing new, however. She's pulled the same antics during previous discussions with me on these forums. She'll show back up later on when she thinks her refusal to answer questions has been forgotten. She always does.
It also says to kill those who labor on the Sabbath. Have you ever witnessed people working on the Sabbath? If so, how did you smite them? The bible says to be honest, so let's see how literally you take it.
Where does Jesus say that? Jesus told us we didn't have to kill anyone for not obeying our laws, since we know now where they'll inevitably go. Many of the Mosaic laws were simply to make the Jews different from everyone else, so now that God accepts everyone, there's no need for religious laws for each person according to their country or ethnicity. It's One Church, not 100 whites, 150 blacks, 75 Asians, etc.
But the same writers predicted the birth of a messiah you call Jesus. How can you buy some of it and ignore the rest? But I do agree Jesus doesn't fit the person prophesied by the OT writers.
Which testament is right?
If Jesus isn't the Messiah, I'll simply become a Jew. Tell me, what prophecy did Jesus not fulfill? Please, enlighten me so I can understand where you're coming from.
According to one prophet in the OT, he was to be a great military leader.
And if the Jewish faith fails, will you try being a Muslim?
Actually, according to the Jewish prophets, primarily Isaiah, Jesus fulfilled none of the requirements of the Messiah. There were about a couple dozen of them, and they had to be completed in one human lifetime (not staged after a resurrection). The fact that we do not have world peace, or the fact that people still die, means that we have not achieved the messianic era.
Judaism does not recognize someone claiming to be the son of God, either. The Messiah will be a normal human being.
There are countless other reasons, but suffice it to say the Christian requirements for the Messiah are completely different from the Jewish ones.
Islam is based on Christianity, so why would I believe it if I don't think Jesus was the Messiah? Jesus IS a great military commander: he's gonna get rid of Satan.
Wow Jakob. where did you attend school, Florida or Texas? Gotta be one of the two according to your knowledge of religions. Islam doesn't accept Jesus as the messiah either, but as merely another in the long line of self-proclaiming prophets.
Some Muslims claim Jesus didn't die on the cross but survived to live in another country with his wife Mary Magdalene and their children. They do tell a fairly convincing tale if you read the books booted out of the bible.
Uh, if Judaism is wrong, and Christianity is a spin-off of Judaism, and Islam is based on them both, then it's wrong. duh.
Discernment is not judgement my friend.
We discern every day about "Is this street safe at night'?
"Do I trust this company with my money" "Is that 7 day crusise really free"?..."Should I loan my new car to someone Ive only known for a few weeks"? -Discernment.
So if you state "I judge this street to be unsafe at night" it would mean something different? Without judging those frequenting the particular street, how do you discern the street is unsafe?
1. Perceive or recognize (something).
2. Distinguish (someone or something) with difficulty by sight or with the other senses. More »
Dictionary.com - Answers.com - Merriam-Webster - The Free Dictionary
If I discerned the street to be unsafe,because of so called activities etc...it is what it is 'Unsafe'
So you discern the drug dealers, prostitutes, thieves, etc. to be dangerous but you do not judge their motives or actions?
Discern not, lest ye be discerned?
So if you walked the street and got robbed it would not be a lack of judgement on your part, just mistaken discernment? Okay!
Perhaps we can have all have a descent discussion if everyone can learn the true definition of judgement. You are absolutely correct Kiwi.
It's been proven statistically that Christianity is more persecuted than any other religion. Why? So the meat-eating Jews and terrorist-Iraqis are better than Christians (whose holy book says to never harm anyone and to love your neighbour)? Oh yeah. We're worse.
P.S. Jesus told us we'd be persecuted! Another prophecy to be added to the 100's in the Bible that have come true.
So there are no scriptures where god tells his followers to kill others? Which bible are you reading?
Okay, so I messed up by not adding in "needlessly" at the end of that. Still, it's true.
So who determines if the killing is needed? You didn't answer my former question regarding god's words concerning one who labors on the Sabbath. How did you obey this scripture when you witnessed it happening? did you obey the literal scripture written by the men "inspired by god"?
God determines if the killing is needed. Everything God does is good, so of course he wouldn't want to kill someone if they weren't evil.
Where does the Bible say to kill people who disturb the Sabbath?
Jakob, I thank God for the value of persecution and rejoice in it. The bible prophecies is being fulfilled.
Easy to say when you aren't being fed to the lions.
I'd go to the lions for my faith anyday. How bout you, Randy? Would u die to prove ur atheism?
I can't say for sure, Jakob. I'm agnostic, not atheist. You might change your mind when a lion begins eating you a piece at at time. It's easy to say what you think you would do. More difficult to actually do it, though.
I Know I'm going to Heaven, so why should I care if I die? That's like declining a check for a billion dollars just because "it's too much work to reach out and take it". Btw, Lions don't eat a piece at a time. They kill their food and then eat it (if only most farmers these days could be so civilized. )
I hope you know more about god than lions, Jakob. Lions often stash their quarry in trees and come back later to feed upon them when hungry again. Where did you learn about animal behavior, the bible?
I watched animal documentaries and one of the things they show most is lions hunting, killing their prey, and THEN eating it.
If a lioness makes a kill she will share it with her cubs and the prey may be eaten all at once, especially if it is a smaller animal.
But if a lion kills a large animal, which he cannot eat in one meal, he may stash the remains in a tree to keep for later feeding.
But don't take my word for it, Jakob. I don't know a god if I see one, so my word may be suspect.
Lions rarely climb trees, except for a select group:
http://iberianature.com/wildworld/tag/d … imb-trees/
I believe leopards often stash their kill in trees, however.
Talk to me about persecution when you're a former-Christian and the family you love very much thinks non-Christians are idiots and worthy of burning in hell. I'd much rather be decapitated, thanks.
Yes, I have heard that people debating with you on an online forum is persecution and will help you to achieve sainthood.
John 7:7 (AMP) - (Jesus speaking) "The world cannot [be expected to] hate you, but it does hate Me because I denounce it for it wicked works and reveal that its doings are evil."
Nope. Actually, an unknown person, church tradition identified as John, although there is nothing to support the theory, supposedly told another unknown person what the supposed Jesus was supposed to have said and this unknown writer wrote it down over 50 years later.
It doesn't sound so authoritative when the truth is really told about what "Jesus said," does it? Merely hearsay at best.
Its Chapter 21 states it derives from the testimony of the 'disciple whom Jesus loved.' Jewish custom is that the author not mention their name in any texts. We can see this is OT practices.
Throughout the other gospels we can see that Jesus took with him often, peter, james and john.
John deals with aspects through a jewish perspective as does the other epistles of john. The books are very much identical.
I am fine with john writing all of these and i have no worries about the content of the gospel of john at all.
believe me, as a 'christian' I am just as amazed as you, if not more . There are as many different views and opinions within the Christian community as there are people in the world or stars in the sky. Think about it my fellow christians, God's WORDS according to the bible were not only translated from another language, they were transcribed hundreds of years after the fact. How do we know that they were translated accurately? This was probably the first instance of the childhood game of telephone! Some people take the bible literally, some take it metaphorically. I tend to believe Father Guido Sarducci ( catholic comic of the 70's) more than I believe the written 'WORD OF GOD'. Father Sarducci thinks that Moses being an old frail man may have dropped the ten commandments on his way down the mountain and only remembered the bad ones like don't do this and don't do that. He thinks God was more instructional and helpful and the commandments for "wash your hands after using the toilet" and "wait 1 hour after eating to go swimming" were lost!!
Eaglekiwi, your obvious hatred of gay people does your religion credit, may God bless you for it.
I agree with Cindi, that even Christians can't agree amongst themselves about which laws to follow and which not to. I have previously listed many biblical laws, which Christians do not follow today, but Eaglekiwi has never been able to offer an explanation for this. The only agreement such Christians seem to reach, is that the Old Testament laws are only to be followed by homosexuals, and that they don't apply to heterosexuals.
Sherlock 21b your statement that I hate gay people is a lie and slandorous!
Put up or shut up but dont lie.
I quote - "Puzzles me why a homosexual man or woman would even contemplate being in heaven in the first place?
Do you think when God said man should not lie down with a another man as with a woman to mean something other than that?"
Doesn't seem much love in your own words to me. If I have interpreted it incorrectly, then please explain what you meant. And why do you assume that all gay men lie down with a man as if they were a woman? Homosexuality is a sexual orientation, not an act.
You cannot question the right of gay people to even contemplate being in heaven, yet suggest that this could be said in love. It's like saying 'You disgust me, but I mean this in a loving way. You should consider first how much your words have the power to hurt people. If you cannot consider this, then expect criticism in response.
I didn't write the Bible, but I have no shame in believingin it.
That doesn't mean I say or even think hateful things,because God is a God of love.
On the contrary I think your being very selfish to suppose you can dictate to God how love (and its actions) can be defined,when He has already put in place moral standards for everyone -not just homosexuals!
Do you think when God said man should not lie down with a another man as with a woman to mean something other than that?"
What is the problem,understanding that scripture?
I do no assume all gay people have sex with their own kind,but are you not splitting hairs there.
No matter ,I am not your judge.
I would eat with you.
I would work with you.
I would walk a hundred miles with you.
But based on the Bible, we would not be together in Heaven.
Keep in mind that according to your Bible, many of the "pious" Christians here won't be in your heaven, either.
Since I don't share your view about the afterlife and you're respectful in the real world, then I have no problem with your viewpoint.
Thank you for making your position, and that of other Christians clear. As a person who is constantly on a quest for scientific and spiritual meaning in my life, I have over the years gone back and forth between outright atheism and a religious belief. The religious belief, I naturally turned to was the Christian one, becaue it is the one I am used to. However, based upon reading your views, and the majority of Christians (although not all) on here, you have finally helped me to make my mind up once and for all. Whilst I shall still research religion, even if it does not lead to a religious belief for me, I shall no longer even consider the Christian god as a possibility. The judgement coming from Christians, who believe that only they are assured of a place in heaven, but anyone who is different to them is destined for hell. First of all, how dare you? But secondly, I must thank you in a way for making me finally rule the Christian god, if he exists out of my life. You, and others like you have made my decision easier for me. There was always an innate respect for Christianity in my mind, even though I could no longer believe in it. Now though, you have helped me to see this religion for what it is.
I leave with a description of a cartoon, which appeared in a newspaper. It featured a priest, who held a crucifix in his hands, with which he was beating a man on the head. With each beat, he shouted 'blasphemer, adulterer, homosexual, disobedient woman, abortionist.' Finally, the man grabbed the crucifix from the priest's hands and broke it across his knees. It was then, that the priest put up his hands and said 'Show some respect!'
Wow and it all it took was an internet forum to bring you to this amazing mindblowing decision, or to seal the nail on the ocffin so to speak- yea right.
Not just the Internet no. In everyday life I have been beaten, been forced to move from my home, because of stones thrown through my window. My mother has been beaten and ended up in an ambulance, where the neighbours surrounded it and shouted 'Die bitch!' I get called queer by children if I go for a walk I have had my life made hell, by people. Why? Because I made the wrong choice before I was born to be gay, whilst people like you made the right choice to be straight. If you sense any anger, it is because it is there. I have fought responding like-for-like, as I have always believed in Jesus' teaching to turn the other cheek.
I turned to religion, and spent years as a Jehovah's Witness, keeping secret the fact that I am the worst kind of sinner, because biology decided to make me gay. People like you believe they are God's chosen and therefore have the right to condemn others, in a way you would not dream of condemning yourself. I am tired of the religious believer who believes in their superiority. Reading your comments, which seem to be shared by the majority of Christians although not all, has made me realise that yours is not the religion for me.
Nevertheless, I have no anger for you personally and I forgive you your judgemental nature. It is not your fault, it is the religion you belong to. However, there is one thing for certain, that you really have helped me in. And that is in my determination to stand up to bigoted views, whether based on religion or not. Instead of trying my best to hide myself in a corner, in my sin and shame, I really feel better about myself as a result of your comments and those of others. Every bigoted remark I read makes me more sure of myself and more confident to face the world and call bigotry where I see it. I thank you for that. In a way you and others on here, have done me more good than any amount of counselling could do.
I don't intend to say anymore on the subject. This has been a part of my seeking answers, and I have now found them.
Nevertheless, I have no anger for you personally and I forgive you your judgemental nature. It is not your fault, it is the religion you belong to
I forgive you for being condescending too.
Biology made you gay?
It is the message that you dont like ,so dont shoot the messenger.
@ eaglekiwi: you truly come off as an arrogant and obnoxious person in your posts. I don't know what you are like face to face but you are very condescending and I don't appreciate it. How about debating the topic in a respectful matter? I don't know what your intentions are but you are certainly turning a lot of people off. Not a good example of a loving Christian at all. What would Jesus think?
lol...add me as well....I find it fascinating that people will read the bible, but if it contradicts the life style they choose, then they retaliate and make statements that show others their lack of moral fiber. Its always easier to search for people that condone or accept a way of life contrary to society than to accept responsibility for our own flaws. The people in Sodom and Ghemora thought they were ok too.
Christianity will evolve to not hate gay people (have you noticed that the anti-gay Christians here are a bit, um, "elderly"?). It always does evolve with the times. The problem is that Christianity tends to lag progress instead of leading it. That's what was ultimately a dealbreaker for me.
Ohhhhhh 'bit um elderly'
Ouch,ok ya got me there,but I just woke from my nanna nap ,so ya better watch out kid j/k
Everyone should question their beliefs. There are no absolute truths for us. This is what frightens people. We desperately want truth --when, if it were in front of our noses, we wouldn't see it. Why? We can only accept that which we are ready to accept because we are all spiritually evolved at varying levels.
Another thought: Atheists may not believe in the god that society has proclaimed as god. And I don't blame them. Once you experience the great mystery that life truly is, you know there's a God. Otherwise, you're just taking someone's word for it. The bible doesn't prove anything until something within it's pages leads one to greater spiritual heights and mystical experiences. To use the bible as a guidebook or as some kind of proof is weird, only because it can be interpreted in many different ways -- and, because some of the scrolls were left out by the Catholic Church. Spirit is to be experienced. If there are no experiences, God becomes a nothing -- unless, of course, you were brain-washed into believing in a god by your familial or social tribes.
Start asking your questions to the Great Spirit, Allah, God, All-That-Is, The Divine, Jesus, the Great Light, Highest Light, Divine Love. You'll get answers. Be persistent. It's a two-way relationship and life-long journey. Stop looking outside of yourself at the world for answers. Most don't know a thing.
cooldad, Arguing is all many of the atheist do in the religious forums. They appear to be pretty miserable attacking the believer's faith.
Thanks Beth, I appreciate it. You may be right about atheists arguing, but I'm not like that. I always try to question, question everything instead of arguing. I think a lot of times, religious people are put off when atheists question their beliefs, especially beliefs that are based on faith and not facts. I try to be as open minded as possible about all aspects of life. Unfortunately, in my personal experiences, most religious people are not open minded in any sense of the term. That frustrates me. I always like to ask religious people one question, "What if you are wrong?"
I ask myself that too cooldad.
Because I accept that I dont know everything ,but I stand firm on the things I do understand about Gods word.
I'm guessing you rely on faith to make up for the unknown and for what can't be explained? That's another concept I have trouble understanding.
Well if you have a friend who knows you by name, is loyal ,stands by you ,loves you unconditionally,answered your questions ,been unfaithful ,when you have been faithful,slow to anger-then its easy to feel accepted ,worthy, unique and most of all trust them tell them to lead me in truth.
I know everyone doesnt agree with me ,Im just sharing my realationship with Christ and why I can trust him with my life.
They ARE wrong to judge you and argue. It points to the fact that they do not understand what it means to seek and embrace God. It seems that many are brainwashed because of early training. They have little to stand on. If they truly sought God, they would love your inquiry and contribute appropriately. I thank you. It helps me to clarify within my own mind where I am in my relationship with Spirit. I have peppered this post with replies. I invite you to read them. Many blessings to you!
livelonger ; The Jehovah's Witnesses go a bit further and restrict it to 144,000 total people (of which I'm sure none are gay).
Scripture says that there are 144,000 who are redeamed from among the living, being the FIRST fruits unto the Lord.
They are said to have lived sinless lives and are worthy to be given authority over all others who receives redemption or salvation.
There will be no, homosexuality, in heaven.
I would believe each individual man and women will have to stand and account for their choices. But in the end... there will be no homosexuality in heaven.
I agree ... There will be no homosexual actavity in heaven.
That reminds me of a philosophical debate that I once had regarding Utopian societies. They are, technically impossible.
I have the same question about heaven... who's heaven? Mine or yours? Since my idea of heaven and your idea of heaven are certainly not going to be the same, how does God reconcile that? Are there different "neighborhoods" in heaven? Because honestly, I don't think of eternal bliss as being cooped up on a cloud with preachy overbearing zealots. Half of the fundamentalists that I have met I wouldn't want to have a meal with... let alone spend eternity with...
Now I've never met a Gay man without a hell of a sense of humor, good taste in music, and great conversation skills. I'm not saying they don't exist, just that I have never met one.
So if heaven is YOUR heaven... why the hell would I want to go to it? What's my motivation?
Well for one none of us are going to "Heaven". Simply isn't going to happen like that. Who will be allowed to live life eternal with God on earth? Those who sincerely try and are repentant for any sins they may have committed, those who have tried live a good life etc...
As I said the individual will be judged on his or her own choices. but you have to try... try...try... get it? Try.
So agian... that behaviour will not be tolerated where you I and many who do believe want to go. It simply isn't.
Sorry. But God over-rules you and all the others.
Wow, thank you for not answering my question at all.
Seriously, I LOVE horses... will there be horses in the "afterlife?" What about those who are allergic to horses or have a general dislike for the animals?
Do I have to spend eternity without them or do the other christians have to tolerate them? And I LOVES me some Elton John. I listen to him almost everyday. I don't want to spend eternity without ever hearing "Daniel"... So you think God will let him in for a concert every now and then? If he promises not to be gay while he sings? Or do I have to listen to harp music... cause I'm here to tell you I can't stand harp music...
The point is, If I love something... like say a gay relative or artist... how is it going to be heaven if I am forced to spend eternity with that love being denied... Or is God going to take that love away so I'll be okay with it? Cause honestly that's some pretty serious fine print... I didn't think the big guy was the kind to destroy love...
If "eternity" is what you think it will be... Once again, what does it hold for me. I'd be miserable having to be held to your standards.
It's all a joike to you, not to God.
And to answer your question, I simply do not know what he will do about that sorrow you feel for your loved ones or friends who lost themselves to this world and could not do as required.
I would think maybe another chance to see if they could do it without being a homosexual? Maybe during the Milennial, while all the others, people who never had the chance to know Christ and such, are trying their turn at it? Maybe on another world in another life? Maybe? I dunno. Anything is possible for God, you read that part, right?
But. I feel your pain. I have good friends and family members who will not be there either.
But that is the way it is.
Actually, the joke is on ALL believers. They have fooled themselves or deceived themselves, into believing that the book that they read is completely and utterly, unmanipulated.
ALL religious text was manipulated by the authors and/or others, long before the text was ever translated.
Thus, making this entire thread absurd.
I enjoy listening to people who believe in the same thing, but come up with several different interpretations of a simple question. Yet another reason why religion is comical to me. People squirm in their seats, because most christians are terrified of gay people. Amazing
I guess that is your perspective.
Gay people dont terrify me,lol.
I'm happy you don't feel that way, but many of them do. I don't think that point is even arguable. But then again, there are a lot of christians who don't like black people too, go figure.
I hear that!
Actually it never ceases to amaze me,the predjudice and hypocrisy that surrounds us all on a daily basis,in our neighborhoods, family /friends,employers and media!
Among people who claim to follow God ,I find the same mouth that praises God ,then curses his brother to be nauseating!!
(God did too)...
It has always been the inner man God seeks to commune with the spirit of the person.
Gods spirit does the changing in all of us dependant upon our relationship with Him.
I don't think most christians are terrified of gay people. Lol.
No really, my faith is very serious to me, I just seem to get different things from my belief in Christ than you do.
My God is a kind benevolent figure that values love above all else. My Savior is the one that died on a cross loving the thief beside him. My Jesus would be far more concerned about kindness and charity than who someone chose to spend their life with.
My God would rather let a gay man with a kind heart through the gates than someone who followed the rules exactly but had a cold heart full of hatred.
I'm not sure who your God is sometimes, but he's not the one I've dedicated my life to. If you are right about a lot of things that you and the others think, then I fear he's not the kind of God that I wish to worship.
I am harder on you than the non-believers because YOU are saying things about my religion that I don't believe are true. And you are supposedly doing it from a position of knowledge. You are representing MY faith in a way that would make me ashamed of it if I thought you were right.
I have to accept you as a brother in faith, much like I have to accept the millions of others that I don't agree with because we share a belief in the same savior. I don't, however, have to let you speak for me-or even a majority-of Christians.
And, according to my "liberal socialist" version of Christianity, I'm not scared to say that there will most likely be a great more homosexuals in heaven than fundamentalists.
You know, Mellissa, you just do not seem to get it. You're an extremist.
I have stated clearly that there may indeeed be a homosexual who gains a pass, there may be some who have earned their way, but it won't be the ones who think they can just continue on in that sin, and not correct themselves. And there will not be Homosexuality in that place, that is just wrong for you to even propagate. Shame on you.
Christ did not die on the cross, so that you, I, or anyone else, could just get a free pass. It still requires actions to be put to faith and repentance. To think you can live in a state of continuous sin, and not worry about it, is against all the Bible teaches.
And yes, God is Benovelance, Mercy, Love and Redemption.
He is not about ignoring your sins and carrying on though... living as though it does not matter... -oh well Christ died for us, I get a pass-.
Not at all, Mellissa.
And you do anyone you express that sentiment to a great dis-service.
As to you being hard on me, harder than the Atheists?
You all are too funny. Most of you have no clue... and the rest babble talking points as though they are facts. You all give yourselves way too much credit.
And no, I do not speak for you as a Christian. I speak for no Man or Woman, that is not my job.
I will though, speak up firmly when you think you can water the truth down, distort it so you, or your friends, won't think so bad about it, or yourselves. Or so you can be loved by this world for your PC Liberal BS interrpretations.
You do not get to do that.
Christ said over and over... "Your sins are forgiven you, now go your way and sin no more. That is pretty self explainatory. And it doesn't mean go on your way and have it... I got it for you... here is your free pass.
Not in the least.
I have to agree with Melissa's interpretation of the character of Jesus. When I was a Christian, I read the New Testament much more than the Old, because the ideology was so different. The Old Testament told of an angry hating God, who ordered the smashing out of babies brains onto rocks. I could never be attracted to such a God. Jesus, on-the-other-hand came across to me as loving and peaceful. However, as I have said before, based on what Christians have told me, both online, and in real life, that this view of Christ is not widely shared. It is for this reason, that so many Christians are angry in the name of Christ. Personally, I would recommend the peaceful loving Christ, rather than the angry one.
I died and came back to life, so I have the first hand experience. There is actually a gay heaven and a straight heaven.
I myself, believe that who you are not what you are is the true answer. I believe in God and he is my creator. That being said, I am gay and know in my heart and soul that I was created and put here for more than just being gay. I will meet my maker and smile proudly for who I am.
God refers to Homosexuality as "An abomination" and something he can not condone. But the bible also speaks of compassion, love, acceptance and non judge-mentality. If It is an abomination as the bible states, then turning from it (even if it means abstinence from having any sort of relationship) would be a conviction that would require life changing decisions. The alternative would be separation from God for all eternity. That would be hell to suffer eternal solitude and darkness as depicted in God's word.
Cooldad: one thing that Christianity teaches (tho it seems a majority of those proclaiming themselves Christians don't seem to get it) is that God loves all of His children. He teaches us that, although we might not condone an activity in our convictions, we must not transfer that to the individual.
I'm an Ordained Minister who has several homosexual friends. They all know I don't agree with the lifestyle, but also know i will not judge them for it. That's not my job. My job is to love them and live a life before them based on my convictions. One of my primary convictions is to follow the "second greatest commandment" according to the Christ, ergo: Love thy neighbor as thyself.
God is a loving God who offers grace to all His children. Contrary to popular belief, neither does He send anyone to hell. The Bible tells us that He wishes "none to perish." But, we send ourselves to hell by refusing His grace and forgiveness. That same Bible tells us we cannot be forgiven if we do not forgive. Sure are a lot of "Christians" gonna bust the gates wide open over that one....
Thanks W.JoeB., I was wondering how long it would take to hear, "love thy neighbor." Unfortunately, I think you may be in the minority with your view on homosexuality. There are many, many churches and ministers who condemn them. Amazing how twisted a religion has become that was supposed to love everyone. I'm glad you take the position you do, because it makes more sense from a human compassion standpoint. If your interpretation is correct, you are right, there will be a lot of surprised Christians who wake up in hell one day. Thanks for stopping by and contributing.
W.JoeB, you just have judged "homosexuals" by saying its a "lifestyle."
Lifestyle means how you live and where you live. Is it a house or an apartment. Is it filet mignon or hamburger. Kardashians or the family on "Married With Children."
"Homosexuality" is an innate characteristic such as an ability to play the piano or have a "green thumb or a nack for numbers. Not everyone is the same nor should they be. I know some gays to be sluts as well as virtuous just the same as I've seen Christians.
Please, PLEASE don't call it a lifestyle. Being a minister is a LIFESTYLE and not where you place or don't place your penis.
BTW...all of you haggling over the number 144,00 need to peek at my hub on the subject.
I was raised as a Catholic and have read the entire Bible, but I am not a Christian. When I hear these folks talking about Gays going to hell, and God said this, or God said that. And you have to pick up poisonous serpents...It seems pretty crazy to me. If two people do something together in the house down the street, and come out the next day happy and contented. What business is it of mine, or yours. They both agreed. They did no harm to themselves or to anybody else. I may not like what you do in the privacy of your home, but I have enough decency to keep my nose out of other people's business. Liberty is still a radical concept with some people.
144,000 isnt that a jehovah's witnessness' credo?
Homosexuals just like any other sinner will burn in the lake of fire. I actually just posted Part One of my "Faith and Homosexuality" article on my page. I believe that any homosexual that wants salvation can have it if they are willing to change the lifestyle. I do not believe that a homosexual will enter heaven if they hold on to their lifestyle. It doesnt matter how active they are in church or community. We are not judged by our deeds.
A believing non sinner are we?
Or are you getting your asbestos suit on?
@ Vtwilli -Jesus died for our sins, what gives you the right to judge? and to say who can go into heaven and who can not? are you better than Jesus?
He died for my right to be homosexual, just as yours to be heterosexual if you believe that my way is a sin. and also this business with salvation, I would sooner go to hell than sit in realm of hypocritical extremists.
Jesus was a Jew not a Christian so how do you work that one out?
I would imagine they would have a better chance of heaven than all then good Christian Churchs who have facilitated the rape of Children.
Polygamist sect leader Warren Jeffs is facing a possible life sentence after being convicted of child sexual assault.
The case stemmed from two young followers he took as brides in what his church calls “spiritual marriages”.
The head of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints stood stone-faced as the verdict was read out in the San Angelo, Texas, court.
Jeffs, who acted as his own lawyer, stood mostly mute for his closing argument, staring at the floor, for all but a few seconds of the half hour he was allotted. At one point he mumbled “I am at peace” and said no more.
Jeffs, 55, had claimed his religious rights were being trampled on and that God would seek revenge if the trial continued. He now faces up to life in prison.
The sentencing phase of the trial began after the verdict was announced, and Texas’ attorney general said it could take three days.
Prosecutors used DNA evidence to show Jeffs fathered a child with a 15-year-old girl and played an audio recording of what they said was him sexually assaulting a 12-year-old. They also played audio recordings in which Jeffs was heard instructing young women on how to please him sexually.
The cult, which has at least 10,000 members, is a radical offshoot of mainstream Mormonism and believes polygamy brings exaltation in heaven. They see Jeffs as God’s spokesman on earth.
Police raided the group’s remote West Texas ranch in April 2008, finding women dressed in frontier-style dresses and hairdos from the 19th century as well as seeing underage girls who were clearly pregnant.
The call to an abuse hotline that sparked the raid turned out to be a hoax and more than 400 children who had been placed in protective custody were eventually returned to their families.
But authorities brought charges against several men from the group, with Jeffs by far the highest-profile defendant.
As the sentencing began, prosecutors told jurors they would present evidence that Jeffs had 78 wives, in addition to his legal spouse, and that 24 of them were under 17.
Lead prosecutor Eric Nichols also said he would show that Jeffs either witnessed or performed hundreds of polygamist marriages, including 67 marriages involving underage girls.
Jeffs stood up and made several incoherent objections to what was being said.
“I object to anything pertaining to a religious manner,” he said at one point. “A constitutional guarantee involving things sacred must be invoked.”
Prosecutors have relied heavily on information seized from the compound, which is in the town of Eldorado, 45 miles south of San Angelo, and features a four-storey temple of white limestone. Much of the material was discovered in a vault at the end of a secret passageway in the temple and another vault in an annexe building.
“You might have asked yourselves,” Mr Nichols told jurors during closing arguments, “a lot of people may ask, why would someone record sex? ... This individual considers himself to be the prophet. Everything he did, hour after hour, he was required to keep a record of that.”
On one of the tapes played at the trial, Jeffs made a reference to “drawing close” or “being close”, which authorities said was how church members referred to sex. Two female voices said: “OK.”
“A good wife is trained for her husband and follows the spirit of peace,” Jeffs was heard saying.
Another audio tape included Jeffs and the younger girl from a recording made in August 2006 at the Texas compound, according to evidence from Nick Hanna, a Texas Ranger involved in the 2008 raid.
Played in court, it was difficult to decipher, but Jeffs and a female voice are heard. He says: “I perform this service in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen” then mentions the alleged victim by name. When she says something, he responds: “Don’t talk while praying.” Several minutes of heavy breathing followed.
Jeffs represented himself after sacking seven lawyers in the six months leading to the trial. He broke his courtroom silence with an objection marked by a nearly hour-long speech defending polygamy and twice threatened the judge and the court with warnings of punishment from God.
He refused to cross-examine the state’s witnesses and delayed giving an opening statement until he began presenting his own defence.
Eleven other FLDS men were charged with crimes including sexual assault and bigamy. All seven of those who have been prosecuted were convicted, receiving prison sentences of between six and 75 years.
If homosexuals do what an adulterer would do, then they are no different with those adulterers. I see nothing is wrong with the homosexuals. It is a fact nowadays that because of the rise of estrogen and progesterone in a person's body, they tend to feel like another type of gender. This is due to the food that a lot of people are now eating these days. there is nothing really wrong with being homosexual. But just try to remember never to get loose of yourself. it is with the actions of a certain person where he/she makes sinful ways. but if these people would try to watch out what they are doing and not engage into such sins like adultery, murder or others, then, there is no big deal of being a homosexual.
if you would ask if they can be forgiven, as for me, of course they can be forgiven. I believe in God myself and I do not judge people because they are different. and true Christian believers would also do the same.
for me, we don't have the rights to condemn or even to judge other people because of how they act. instead, we guide them in doing what is right and help them in correcting their wrong doings.
After reading this thread ... A thought jumped into my head and I'm going to write it down before giving it any thought (As Usual)
What IF ... We as spirits, didn't choose to be born into this physical world at all. What IF we were misbehaving in heaven and as punishment and for rehabilitation we were sent here.
Many people have said that we are here cause ... We have a lesson to learn.
I don't want to learn "NO STINKING" lessons through hardship !!!
Does anyone ???? Maybe there is only one lesson we must all learn … What hypocrisy looks like from the recieving end!
Like I said, just a thought, I’m still half asleep,” haddn’t” had my coffee, or given this any thought. And I don’t believe it! Maybe.
The Bible says that no sin is any worse than another. So, of course, homosexuals will be forgiven (but they'll have to stop being homosexual, they can't just ask for forgiveness and think that that's their free-card to go on sinning but still go to Heaven).
So are you saying that as long as they "pray the gay away", they can get into heaven? Hypothetically, say a homosexual denounces his/her gaydom and makes it into heaven. Then after a few boring weeks up there, they decide to pull out the disco clothes, re-decorate and start gaying it up again. How would God handle that? Can you get kicked out of heaven?
You don't get kicked out of Heaven since there's no sin, and thus no sinners. Homosexuality is a sin. Do the math. Sure, a non-dead Christian can become gay, but that means sinning, so they'd need to stop and ask forgiveness.
Ask Satan if it's possible to get kicked out of heaven. and if there is no sin there, who tempted Satan?
So we're talking about angels when we're talking about humans, Randy? Satan was an angel, not a human, and we're talking about humans, so please don't change the subject.
So you contend god doesn't kick out human souls, but he does boot angels created perfect from heaven? Strange how a perfect creation of god was flawed enough to be tempted by sin god also created. Who tempted and broke through god's perfect creation, if not god himself? Otherwise it seems something more powerful than your god managed to corrupt Satan's perfection.
Glad to hear your explanation.
Angels were perfect as in sin-less. They could still want to do wrong. Satan decided himself. Satan doesn't possess you to make you do evil, some of it is your fault. Thus, Satan could have become evil all on his own.
So could you explain how this could have happened, in detail?
It say in your bible Satan was made perfect by your god. Perfect means, without flaws. Unless you can explain how your god created a flawless entity but the being was corrupted by_____(fill in the blank) then perfection means something entirely different than it seems.
Where did Satan's temptation to rebel against the creator originate? This seems to mean god cannot create lasting perfection unless he himself did the tempting. But are free to give your take on your god's ability.
Makes absolutely no sense at all, Jakob. What part of perfection do you not understand? Is god's perfection faulty or not?
The difference between angels and humans (as far as this line of thought goes), is that we both have free will, but ONLY humans have salvation. In otherwords, when Lucifer fell and took 1/3 of Heavens angels with him, he can't repent and be saved. We on the other hand can. That is why when we get to Heaven we will be singing a song that the angels can't sing, because they don't know salvation.
I don't feel that being a homosexual is any barrier or pass to heaven. No one wants to be bad so is with homosexual. It is just some problem in hormones that forces them to be so. I guess if they haven't committed any sin in their life they have full right to be in heaven. Things written in bible are usually misinterpreted.
So homosexuality is a hormone problem of some sort? Wow, I've never heard that one before.
There once was the belief that gay men had more female hormones than straight men do, however this had been shown not to be the case. Where hormones do seem to play a part, is during pregnancy, where the developing boy receives too many female hormones, which changes the development of the brain. Scientists have examined the brain of gay men and straight ones, and can easily identify which is which, without knowing beforehand.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncd7oaaY … re=related
Can you provide a link to that proof? because there are other websites who say there is no scientific evidence.
It is an old belief that being gay is a hormone problem, however, repeated tests have shown that gay men's hormone levels are no different to those of straight men. However, where hormones do seem to play a part, is whilst the male child is developing in the womb. It is a statistical fact that the more boys a woman has, the chance increases with each boy born that he will be gay. If therefore a woman has five boys, the second boy has a higher chance of being gay than the first, and the third more of a chance than the second etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncd7oaaY … re=related
I want citations. I just hate when people spout "facts" and never cite. IRKS me! Anyhow, hormone problems cause acne, it doesn't "create" a homosexual. There are things about human being s that is inate in their character like talents, abilities and understanding that is not common.
HORMONES! oh, dear. First a choice, then a lifestyle now hormones?
Wow. We're really stretching this forum!! LOL
I don't know - have they broken any of the Ten Commandments? (since, technically, homosexuality isn't going against the Ten Commandments) Will homosexuals ask for forgiveness of any Commandment they broke?
Then again, there are some people who believe ALL people will go to Heaven...
Hmmmm. I see not many posters want to weigh in on the gluttony sin. If a christian continues to eat more food than their body requires they, are ignoring their own sins as being trivial while focusing on the shortcomings of others as being worse. What's the excuse believers?
Lol, I hope you are not assuming I am obese. I agree gluttony is a sin. I don't glut down more food than the body requires.
You also don't weigh in on my question. I assume nothing about you other than your disillusion concerning the veracity of the novel. So, how many sermons have you heard where the pastor really gets on the gluttons in the congregation for eating too much?
The word of God states gluttony is a sin. It doesn't matter how many sermons I have heard about it. Disillusion is your opinion. I will not type back and forth answering your ridiculous questions.
It doesn't matter to whom? I actually didn't expect you answer my question truthfully. You're a christian. Why do you resist answering this particular question which YOU judge (or perhaps you prefer the word discern) ridiculous? Unless of course, it hits too close to home. Ever hit the all-you-can-eat buffet on Sunday after church, Woc?
Lol, you sure are having a lot of fun ridiculing me. How very childish and immature. Don't get irritated with me because I choose not to answer your questions. It's more fun to me to allow you to wonder. Have a good day Randy.
How is asking questions ridicule, WOC? I've not accused you of anything. But your refusal to answer my questions tells me all I need to know. You would not be afraid to answer unless you didn't like the answer you would truthfully have to give, is the only reason I can see for your response.
But feel free to enlighten me if I'm mistaken. Unlike you, I will not judge/discern your questions as ridiculous simply because I dislike them. But then, I'm not a believer.
You know exactly what I am referring to . Please don't play dumb. "Ever hit the all-you-can-eat buffet after church on Sunday, WOC?' I am aware of sneaky mockery games when I see them. Why ask this question when I have previously told you I don't overeat? I have no reason to lie. It's not polite to stereotype. You say that christians do not speak the truth on the sly. I think you now know my reason for not answering all your questions. Fear is not the reason. Thanks for twisting things as usual. I'm not mad at you.
I didn't accuse you of overeating, WOC. I simply asked if you've ever been to a buffet after Sunday service. This was merely a lead up to asking if you'd ever witnessed any obese brothers and sisters in Jesus ignoring the sin of gluttony.
And no, I have no idea why you refuse to answer my questions, especially if you've nothing to be afraid of. I have no need to twist anything. The truth is sufficient for me.
I'm not angry either. I've grown up around fundamentalists and learned to not take them very seriously.
I never stated you accused me. Believe it or not, I don't eat at all- you-can eat buffets. By the way, it doesn't necessarily mean they are not acknowledging gluttony is a sin while overeating. Take care!
Perhaps it was this statement you made which gave me the idea:
"Why ask this question when I have previously told you I don't overeat?"
But you never answered my original question which was-How many sermons from the pulpit have you heard where the preacher really gets down on the sin of gluttony?
And why don't the pastors preach on this most common evil sin more often? Too many fat folk in the audience?
There is no excuse for hypocrisy,by the way its annoying to Christians too oops I will own that statement ,its annoying to me
Like: Take thine own doughnut out of thine own hand buddy,before you attempt to take the shortcomings out of mine
Hypocrisy is okay as long as no one mentions it to the hypocrite.
"Go forth and attend the buffets no more". Yeah right, attend any local Sunday buffet and see how many of "god's chosen" are keeping the day holy. What a joke.
Mention, challenge it,just dont call me chubby
In today's world, being referred to as "chubby" is often preferable to the real description of some folk.
In y family ,they used a quaint phrase of "Youre looking well" loosely translated" Hmm..Aunt Celia is packing on the pounds"..
Randy in all seriousness,over eating is a sin,a sin to the body,and Churches have an obligation to discourage it just as much as other sins...that potentially harm individuals or hurt families..
But all things to be done in the spirit of truth and love for the edification of each other.
I have no problem obeying any law if its to protect and help me.
Yes, but do the churches actually actively discourage gluttony? apparently not as we have more "chubby folks here than ever before. Even young children are not prohibited from overeating by many churches, or at least from the pulpit. Especially if the pastor is obviously guilty of the sin himself.
Really couldnt guess the stats on that one.To be honest obesity is across the board though irrespective of nationality ,status or religion.
To be fair though ,accepting Christ as your saviour doesnt mean 'instant transformation' a changed heart is just that -changing day by day (hopefully). Every individual is unique and so too is their growth.
That doesnt mean I am naive and accept every preacher as being God in the flesh ,nope,no sir...If the apple tree aint growing apples, I move on
On a serious note:
My heart longs for many more older women to show and teach younger women how to be better mothers-for men to be shown how to be good husbands
For children to serve their elders etc..
People care I know ,but collectively Im not so sure anymore.
age and metabolism
or are you judging obese people to be gluttonous?
A fat ,dope smoking ,cheating whoremonger calling himself/herself a Christian,doesnt mean God doesnt exist anymore than a person wearing a white coat calls himself a Doctor. Do we quit going to reputable Doctors because quacks claim to cure cancer?
Yes exactly ... kinda like someone burning the BBQ doesn't mean that cows don't eat corn.
Psst Im a Kiwi, you will have to give me the Pacific version lol
But how does one tell if a preacher is reputable? There is no way to question the souls he helped save after they're dead? Not so for doctors who lose many patients or have been convicted of malpractice.
Some even still believe Jimmy Swaggart is a man of god.
Yea ,but apparently the J'W'S had to change this creed,since they found the departed saints were going to exceed those numbers.
Emile R Hmm..
I hadn't heard that. That's funny, but new revelations will be given to them and it'll clarify the prophesy. They are never wrong.
= === - = -
what is written is that the 144,000 will be the first, Not the only. They will have been "Perfect" therefore being judges and such.
BUT everybody wants to be Chiefs and no body wants to be little indians.
Who are the judges going to judge if everybody is judges?
Although I won't gain many friends by this but God does not make mistakes. You are who you are, it's not a choice. God already knows the path of each of us and I believe the Bible is so homophobic because of the scribes of that time. An adulterer is also different than a gay person. It's not about sexual preference but breaking trust and vows that causes another innocent person pain of betrayal.
It doesn't matter if your gay God still loves you no matter what the only way to get to heaven is believing in God
Don't you think he wants you to obey his laws, though... that's kinda why the Bible keeps talkin about "we deserve to die because of our sins" and "we need God's forgiveness", etc. God loves everyone in Hell, but he has to punish them for their crimes (which is why he sends them to Hell).
When we all die..that is it, we cease to exist - its over
..But what if your'e wrong.?..
See,if I'm wrong about there being an afterlife,then Ive still had a good life.
Only if you haven't been worshiping the wrong god.
But my odds are still going to be better than if I had accepted 'No-one"
Isnt this pic so cool!!!
*smiles* I think I have had this argument before Now he's going to say "unless you angered the real god more by worshiping a fake god than by not worshiping any god.
Hi Kiwi, how you doing?
You have to know how many millions of gods there are first. Ah, so using your logic, it's safer to worship dozens of gods to increase the odds, EK.
Thanks for the tip!
Oh the pic. Let me guess...Eagle Knievel?
No you dont have to know every god,just your own heart
(Actually God is the one who calls you...) but thats probably another topic.
Oh you know the pic?...I just came across it some place.
Love the eagle and the colours are so vibrant.
But you were talkin' odds and.....well, never mind. I forget you guys are hanging upside down all of the time.
No, I don't know the picture. I was making a joke about Evel Knievel. You know, the motorcycle stuntman who wore the American flag leather suit similar to the eagle in your pic.
I think maybe gay people go to a different heaven than the straights. In gay heaven, it is even more fabulous and colourful, with diamante-covered wings, and fit angels, who work out, and where there is a selection of Cher, Doris Day and Judy Garland records played on God's gramophone. I think the straights go to a heaven where they listen to George Bush or Margaret Thatcher speeches, and everyone wears sensible shoes and has a side parting, and where the grass has "no walking" signs. The lesbians probably go to a heaven where they wear chunky shoes and gingham, and where there is an endless supply of shelves to put up, with everyone having their own tool kit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-ZBwngC … 5958FC8C5A
George Bush??? Ohhhhhh I thought it was George Clooney
And I think ya put the Iron lady in the wrong heaven.
p.s Please swap the Georges,before I get there
Oh that would be a shame, because I had hoped George Clooney might have considered coming to the gay heaven, or at least divided his time between the two.
Are women allowed at all in the gay man's heaven? I'm a bit of a f**hag myself and i have no idea who I would take with me when clubbing to keep the sleezy 60 year old men with failing eyesight away from me...
The advantage of the 60 year old men with failing eyesight, is that you can make off with their wallet before they even notice. Faghags would be welcome, as long as they are fabulous, but not in a way that outshines the queens.
So who would Ya be looking for ? 30 year old men with ailing eye sight?
Most people think that God hates homosexual people. But why would a creator hate His creation
God DOES hate the SIN though. Because sin in turn leads to death
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Jesus died and went to hell for three days, so we wouldnt have to! So God doesnt want us going to hell for something Jesus already went for. GOD LOVES GAY PEOPLE. He HATES the sin, because sin is evil and has destroyed what the original plan of God for marriage which is in between ONE MAN, ONE WOMAN.
"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."-1 John 1:9
God will forgive you and deliver you if you ask for it! Youre not "born" gay. Thats a lie from hell. Its a demon that you need to be delivered from. Pray and repent and ask for deliverence. Gods love is big enough to change you and put you on the one and right. Jesus is the right path!
John 14:6:"Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."
His love is bigger! John 3:16! =]
I would consider myself a Christian, and was quite active in the church for most of my life, I have since chosen to step away because I beleive that each of us has our own individual relationship with God. I will say that from what I have read in the bible all sin is seen the same in God's eyes, this is a strict break from the philosophy that each sinner is accorded a place in "hell" with regards to his/her sins. Do I think that homosexuals are more damned than an adulterer? No, biblically all sinners receive the same punishment.
Just to clarify, I do not think homosexuality is a sin, it is often lumped together with sodomy (which is traditionally defined as homosexual or unnatural sexual behavior) but you need to investigate the institutions which have defined them as such before you can accept such crude logic. In the book of Leviticus it is sinful for a woman to enter the house of God without covering her head - how many people still follow this law? Aren't they sinning as well?
If you want to argue New Testament "Blood of Christ" then I would challenge anyone to quote me specifically where in the new testament men who lay with men or women who lay with women are condemned to be damned. Im pretty certain any individual who participates in sexual activity outside the bonds of marriage is considered a sinner, and all sinners are washed clean by the blood of christ - regardless of our sins.
That's like asking "will sinners go to heaven or hell when they die?" We are not condemned or saved by our brand of sin but by the grace of God in Christ Jesus.
This question and many of the answers are interesting to me because the presumption is that someone somewhere knows what God thinks. We don't. All we have is our own individual philosophies based on either our own or someone else's interpretation of the Bible.
There are so many factors to consider when reading the Bible: What period in history was any particular Book written, and what was going on in society at the time are just two of the considerations. I am by no means a Bible scholar, but it is entirely conceivable to me that IF homosexual sex practices were condemned in the Bible, and I know there is some debate about that, it was sex for pleasure, not sex as an expression of love that could have been the target of the condemnation. And yes, there is a difference.
I don't know God's mind, and I wouldn't presume to guess. I WILL however share my personal opinion on this.
I believe that we are all children of God, and as such we are each loved completely and individually by Her/Him. How could I as a parent condemn my child to eternal torment because that child behaved consistent with their inborn sexual orientation? I couldn't. I would love my child regardless. I would never take the attitude that this child is evil, or flawed or in some way responsible for their God-given orientation to love someone of the same sex.
Now...If my child were to engage in sexual activity - homo or hetero purely to satisfy their own lust for pleasure and not as an expression of Love, I would be very disappointed in him/her, but I would not stop loving my child.
So to me then, the sin is pursuing sexual gratification for it's own sake. Hell? I don't believe in Hell. I believe that if anything our spirit will make its own hell after death by forever regretting and feeling sorry for the "sins" we committed during life.
Here's an interesting question: What is sin?
Sin as defined by God ...or as defined by man?
In reference to your above post ,you make some good points ,however you have also implied that God may have accidently or purposely created 'homosexuals as well as straight people'
Did I understand you meant to say that in this paragrah,
I believe that we are all children of God, and as such we are each loved completely and individually by Her/Him. How could I as a parent condemn my child to eternal torment because that child behaved consistent with their inborn sexual orientation?
Since the bible says .He knit us together in our mothers womb etc..
RW-great comment and thanks for sharing that. You bring up a very important argument with this topic, "God-given orientation". A lot of religious people don't believe that. Instead they believe being gay is a choice and they should change from being gay. You bring a very interesting perspective to the discussion. thanks
I am not familiar with American History as a rule but I know that Abraham Lincoln made a very famous quote that many of us in England and the world are united over....
Those who deny freedom to others, shall deserve it not for themselves..
He made that quote when he went to war against the south and wanted to abolish slavery. He believed that it was for the greater good, I think he was a religious man and would have probably condemned the persecution that homosexuals face today...
And as a gay man I do not believe that god sees my lifestyle as a sin and that its fanatics, zealots and bigots who will be judged as sinful because they do not preach the word of god, only the word hatred and distorted views of the truth.
You've gotten a lot of comments and I haven't read them all so hopefully I won't be repeating what someone else has already said. But here's my take on your question.
Seeing as your an atheist and I'm a Christian, we're obviously going to have different view points. So off the bat just know I'll be answering you in the most biblically accurate way that I can.
First off, being a hetero or a homo is not the qualification for 'getting into Heaven.' Faith in Jesus Christ alone is. The bible says when you trust in Christ for salvation and become HIS, nothing and no one can snatch you from His hand (John 10:28 & Romans 8:38-39)---and that includes any sin or bent toward a certain sin.
I do not have homosexual tendencies but I struggle with other sins. Regardless, those sins do not CANCEL Christ's love for me or the fact that I belong to Him.
However, I think the tricky part of this subject is the fact that a homosexual LIFESTYLE is not only a sin but is (as the bible says) and abomination to the Lord (Leviticus 20:13 & Romans 1:26-27).
So, when people question: Can a gay person get into Heaven? The question isn't in reference to the fact that being gay is THE unpardonable sin, no, the question begs to be answered because a homosexual lifestyle is so opposed to the way God created people to be, how could someone possibly be accepted into Heaven? And, therefore, the REAL QUESTION to be asked is: How can someone who claims to be saved (a Christian) lead a homosexual lifestyle (which is an abomination in God's eyes) and subsequently, get into heaven?
Whether someone's a raging homosexual or a raging murderer or a raging adulterer, I, personally, do not believe that someone who has a personal relationship with Christ could CONTINUALLY lead a LIFESTYLE of sin---whatever sin that might be---without eventually being convicted of that sin (by the Holy Spirit) and then repenting and turning to God for forgiveness and restoration. Proverbs 3:12 says that God disciplines those He loves. If you're a child of God (a Christian by faith in Christ), you can stray off into sinful things but God will ALWAYS discipline you to get you back on track.
So, someone who is leading a sinful lifestyle and has no problem with it and no desire or intent to change, most likely does not know the Lord Jesus. Because Jesus, like any good parent, corrects His kids when they get off track and gets them back on the path where they are living (and seeking to live) holy, righteous lives that line up with His Word.
I am not the judge of men's hearts---that is God's job---but His Word does say that a tree is judged by it's fruit (Matthew 12:33-34)...what's inside your heart will overflow onto the outside. If there's no Jesus on the outside of your life, is there Jesus on the inside of your life???
I hope this sheds some light on things from a biblical perspective. God is all about the heart. Our sins don't define us but whether or not we know Christ DOES. And if you KNOW Christ, that will inevitably change you. So if you are an adulterer, a murderer, a homosexual, a thief, a liar, WHATEVER, if you know the love and mercy of Jesus Christ who died on the cross as a payment for sins, you won't stay that way long!!! He has a way of changing people:) Hope this helps cooldad!
Blessings to you!
Hi Natalie, I absolutely agree with your insightful post. God can see the heart of anyone who desire to change .
I noticed you have a tendency to lump homosexual sin together with the sin of murder and theft. If you are also struggling with sin, but not homosexual sin, which of those other sins are you struggling with?
Amen Natalie. I agree with everything you said. It is 100% Biblical. Its nice to meet people who know the Bible. Keep on sharing the word.
Gay people can not change their lifestyle just as heterosexuals cant change theirs. Is it not also a sin to live a lie? because if every gay person was to change their lifestyle they would be lying and commiting a far greater sin.
calpol, I agree gay people and heterosexuals can't change their lifestyles, but God can. God can only do it if the person desire to change. One has to have a repentant heart and ask God to forgive them.
And just why would gay people WANT to cahnge?
Maybe they are perfectly happy with their lifestyles, and it is us good religious people who WANT them to change.
Some of them want to change because they don't like being gay, and they don't enjoy a lifestyle of sinning. I will disregard your last sentence.
My older brother is gay, and I don't perceive what he does as sinning, at all.
If it is a sin, then why did GOD make my brother that way?
Instead of punishing people, like my brother, your God should be explaining his nonsense.
BTW, I knew you would disregard my last sentence, because it speaks the truth about religion.
Imagine that. A religion that hates the truth!
Nope, you got me wrong. I'm not pulling my hair out for no one to change. How one chooses to live is their decision. I love the truth. You're the one who is afraid of it, so don't twist it around on me. God did not make your brother that way. Blaming God again? God also did not make anyone a thief, murderer, adulterer, etc. It's all about taking responsibility for one's own action.
I suppose it would follow that God doesn't make people bigoted and hard hearted. I guess we have Christianity to thank for that.
On the flip side imagine a world where everyone did exactly what they wanted to too, anything , lets all be free,hell so long as it feels good and we are not hurting anyone ( so you think)...its my body ,its my partenar, its my kid, its my country ,its my world.
Then one day we grew up and had kids of our own, and we began to ask some searching questions.....
No you don't. If you did, you would not state the fraudulent and evasive comments that you post here.
Yet I'm not the one speaking about an imaginary being that is unknowable. Go figure that one out, will ya?
This is the only true sentence that you have stated. It is true that your God did not make my brother that way, simply, because your God is imaginary...and has made NOTHING!
Again, TRUE! Because God is imaginary, therefore incapable of making anything. You do speak the truth, although not frequently.
You really think I need YOU to tell me something as simple as that? That's absurd.
You definately need someone to remind you how to be respectful and courteous
Good debating skills attack the topic ,not the person.
Why did you feel the need to tell me this, and not Woman of Courage?
Did you not read her comment...ATTACKING my integrity, just for the sake of her false religious beliefs?
Of course, you only want to attack and subdue non-believers, while pretending that believers are being persecuted.
That is usually what these extremists do.... :-)
Does it matter who tells you?
I have been on the end of your immature comments before,so I spoke up, for myself.
Do you feel attacked alot?
Show it to me ,and I will opologise ,if not guess its on you to opologise.
And saying I have attacked you with immature comments, is not an attack? OK!
When I am persistent in holding believers to account for the assertions that they so whimsically spout, I have been attacked, over and over again. You have to understand, it is built into your belief system. You don't like the message, so destroy the messenger.
No need to apologize, Eaglekiwi. It has never been to that degree.
All I know is that I have been coming to these forums for awhile now and when I share what Christ has done for me ,or what I think when he says such n such-I am critized,and often mocked.
I guess I expect adults to be mature,and at least respectful.
Normally I let it roll right off my back, but when a hear someone like you complain about how Christians are ,it really is a case of the kettle calling the pot black!
I agree Kiwi. Christians are not required to be doormats.
If I went around asserting all of the imaginary things that you assert, I would expect some sensible people to question me, as well. But you can't see that the problem is your BELIEFS, and not the people who challenge them. Detach yourself from your beliefs, and try to be objective.
Exactly! But also, we should never allow believers to blatantly insult our intelligence. Which you insist on doing, despite the fact that you have nothing of substance.
Not at all. Your beliefs are not based in reality, so how can you say that believing in reality is the same as believing in things that don't exist?
Yet I have the same right as you to believe in whomever and whatever I want.
True, Christians lovingly warn of the consequences of hell while atheists lovingly warn of the consequences of delusion and we retain the right to believe in either one.
You need to take your argument in the right direction.
This has nothing to do with my comment.
This is such a Christian attitude...arrogantly, defying reason, in spite of the fact that they have nothing but irrational beliefs.
getitrite, You really need to quit. I have not attacked you. If anything, it is you who are throwing personal and arrogant atttacks.
I changed my lifestyle, because I wanted to please God, and because it was hurting me...
But it was a choice thing,different habits, some new friends etc.
And I had help ,I could not have done it on my own.
Did it make me rich and famous -No
Did it make me smarter -No
Did it make me happier and stronger-Yes
Could you change your sexual preference? It isn't the same as giving up beer, or quitting smoking. Imagine how it would feel to be young and told you could only sleep with women for the rest of your life. Could you work that through and be happy? I couldn't. It isn't natural for me.
Gays can't help who they are naturally attracted to either.
Exactly right! Telling a "gay" to change who they are is akin to commanding a cat to become a dog or an elephant. It simply cannot be done.
Those people who've "changed" are living a lie; there are more people who are ex-ex-gay than there are ex-gay for a reason.
But if they want to suppress their natural orientation in order to appease homophobes, then that's their cross to bear. People pretending to be what they're not has been the norm for the last few centuries.
I certainly agree livelonger, :-) I would sooner burn in hell for damnation rather than deny who I am......Because you can not cheat yourself.
Fortunately for the both of us, hell and damnation don't really exist.
True but still would love to go and visit for the day just so I could buy a tee shirt and rub it in at the extremists how great it is, and how boring heaven would be.
I'm female but my best friend is a gay guy, and him Mother wants him to 'change'. That would be like telling me I can't be a woman any more. He is who he is and that is fixed not interchangeable if he 'feels like it'.
He likes men, always has and always will, doesn't make him less of a man. He still thinks and behaves like any other guy I know, but his partners are other men. Both of us liking men gives us something else in common anyway lol.
Lifestyle is a choice ...and yep I could.
All depends on what you think natural is ,dont you think?
If I believed I was 'born that way' ,then I assume the choice would probably be more acceptable in society.
You say life style. Are you reading any posts by the people here who tell you they are homosexual? Are you calling all of them liers?
I know you mean no harm, but you are doing it. I think you might believe you are showing your god that you love him by this constant refusal to live and let live. But it is coming across as something totally different.
On the contrary, Ive always said its a matter of choice.
I too ,am free to make choices.
You do me a great disservice by speaking for other people!
If I am going to call someone a liar, I will.
But I havent
So dont cause dissension by insinuating that I might be Emile
There have been many times I have explained that I prefer to obey the commandment ..the greatest one actually ...to love
Perhaps it would be more constructive to quote those things.
I guess my biggest mistake is answering questions that some people ask ,when they obviously have their minds made up and just need a scapegoat to vent.
And Emile now that you have expressed your opinion ,dont run away and hide.
I dont bite
I'm not trying to play head games. I'm simply reading your posts and taking them at face value.
Edit, not sure what the don't run and hide comment means. Could you elaborate?
You have assumed something about me to be incorrect. I haven't called anyone a liar.
And you speak for homosexuals? like how do you know what anyone else gets from my posts.
Many people appear to respond quite adequately where appropriate.
Glad you dont play head games,just that a couple of people do/have , then disappear until the dust settles.
No, I don't speak for homosexuals. But I read the posts of those who say they are. I would assume they know more about the issue than I do. You too, for that matter. They have repeatedly said it is not a choice. It is not a lifestyle. Anymore than being heterosexual is. To argue the point implies that you either don't believe them, or haven't read their posts.
Since you aren't homosexual, yet feel compelled to voice an opinion, I wonder why you would prefer that I not.
And as to head games and dust settling; I find your explanation less than honest. That appeared to be leveled directly at me, so I'm asking again for clarification.
Duh Of course I leveled it at you ,you were the one who asked me for clarification which I gave you.
As for me feeling compelled to give an opinion.
Not unusual at all -um,its a forum.
I prefer that you dont insinuate untruths!! and thats what I said.
So you are playing headgames
Guess thats my cue to go eat dinner.
No, you didn't clarify. You side stepped. If you can't explain yourelf honestly, that is your problem. Not mine.
And I wasn't the one who questioned your right to voice your opinion. I questioned the reasoning behind your opinion.
Talk about trying (and miserably failing) to play head games. They appear to be your games.
The difference here is, I don't have to find ways to pretend I don't see how I said exactly what I did, or attempt to divert the conversation.