Ok I need to know what people think of this as this is driving me insane.
I happen to be dating a divorced man and he has two daughters from his previous relationship. The younger one is 8 years and quiet frankly his relationship with her is very disturbing to me.
We live together and every time she is around they're constantly cuddling, kissing and all that (she is a complete spoilt brat by the way) and in the morning he walks around naked in the midst of his daughters. I found that weird but I swallowed my values and didn't say anything.
But this morning I woke up and went in the shower and found him showering with her. That freak me out so badly that I threw up and I can't even look at him or her the same way again. I'm frightened and scared and I feel like I'm in a twilight zone.
I was brought up in a military strict home and back in my day it was unheard of for a daughter to shower with her father. I never had a relationship with my father and quiet frankly I would rather be shot or hanged on gallows publicly than shower with my father. I was taught to respect my parents and elders and looking upon your parents while they have no clothes on is utter disrespect.
Now I know the world is different today, and I thought I've seen and heard it all, but apparently I haven't.
I'm I over reacting? am I being weird? Fathers please enlighten me. If you have daughters do you shower with them when they are 8 years old? Mothers, do you see this as normal? This is really tearing me apart and now I cant even let my boyfriend touch me anymore as i'm finding him repulsive. What can I do? is this right? somebody enlighten me please.
A father and daughter affair is not moral of course. Why do I say so? Let me explain it briefly. You the the father suppose to care for your daughter but in what I just read his taking advantage of the situation. This is not just a mistake but I could consider it crime!
HouseSeller you are not over-reacting, infact your reaction to such nonsense is perfectly human and inline with all the moral norms........remember no doubt the world has changed.....but surely the moral values have not and should not be compromised like this one you have mentioned and such immoral acts should be condemned at all levels........thanks.
I think recommend one is right, minus the harpie comment.
This isn't necessarily immoral and illegal behavior. I had a neighbor (a woman) who showered with her son until he was a teen. I wouldn't do it, but that's me.
If you are uncomfortable, talk it out. Understand it. If you then think something fishy is going on, report it. If you don't, but are still uncomfortable you may need to move on. But either way, you will eventually need to move on. You can't force your idea of morals on others.
It is called 9-1-1- let him explain his actions to the authorities.
Houseseller, even though we are living in different time, a father showering with his 8 year old daughter or son for argument sake is wrong. What could this innocent 8 year old possible be thinking when she see's her Dad in the shower? It is gross.....go with your gut and discuss this with him. My concern here is for the girl, this is not normal.
It can be shocking to those who have not ever been brought up in that type of environment. 8 years-old is a little to old to be showering with his daughter, but mom's and dad's do it everyday. I am sure the little girl is not thinking anything negative about her dad's body parts or vice versa. But I would recommend having a talk with him and letting him know how uncomfortable you are with the situation. It is time she begins to shower on her own without dad. If he has been a single parent for a long time, he needs to explain to her that she is a big girl now and she can shower on her own. It could be the little girl's safety net, showering with her dad. Something could have happened in the past for her to be fearful of being by herself.
Don't jump the gun but have a heart-to-heart discussion with him, I believe you may find your answers.
First of all,you should run..don't walk away..
second, call CPS- child protective services..
this is definitely screwed up.
If he hasn't slept with her yet ,he is going to...
Funny enough that used to happen! When I first moved in, he used to always sleep with her and he said he was just putting her to sleep. That angered me and I told him I wasn't having that and although it seems to have stopped but sometimes he still falls asleep on her bed that I angrily wake him up when that happens.
I've spoken with him several times of how uncomfortable I am with the way he is with his daughter and for a while it looked like there was some change but this incident has just raised all the questions I've always wondered.
No there is no sign of incest or pedophilia and to be truthful I did not associate this with that. I only think that it is not an appropriate way for parent to behave in front of a child. I think I would be a drama queen if I reported this as child abuse as its not technically it. Its just different culture clashes and I need to deal with this in a way that will bring harmony between us.
as a former teacher who has worked with abused children,CPS and police detectives, I can tell you that you are in denial.and maybe putting the girls welfare at stake.
I hear you..
and it would kill me if the girls got hurt and I did nothing about it..and yes I will keep my eyes and ears open. I really hope this will stop..
Thank you for your advice.
I think it is sad and quite frankly ignorant of you to risk that girls well being with some... "I will look for red flags" BS... when a grown man in a shower with an 8 year old girl is the definition of a red flag.
If it isn't so bad to be done, then call the police and talk to the detectives, and you should have no fear of the police saying... he is under arrest.
If it is okay then it should stand the light of day and scrutiny... but no... you go ahead and wait till that girl is hurt... cause then you cannot fix it and I hope you enjoy living with the fault.
I am sorry if I sound mad, but that is ignorant to think you should wait or not confront the situation because what?... it might hurt his feelings or get him in trouble?
Well... then he should be in the shower naked with his 8 year old daughter.
Shame on him and shame on you for not acting to cease a situation you know is wrong and un-questioningly sick.
Are you Serious???! Call the Police!!!!
God gave you senses and intuition and this guys behavior is violating both of them. Pedophiles deceive themselves into thinking their behavior is innocent.
You don't love that man, run girl, run!!!!
(Do you think the girls mother know what's going on?)
I would never, ever want to accuse someone of something like this but you, my dear, must duck and run! I'm sorry but his behavior is way out of line and extremely inappropriate! Walking around nude in front of them is bad enough but the shower, excuse me.....NO! Wrong, wrong, wrong! Let me just say that I hope he's not a pedophile but I was sexually molested by my step-dad when I was young and he displayed those same behaviors!!! Just run away, the worst that could happen is that he's not a weirdo and he'll take a long look at his situation and change it, but you shouldn't have to wait around and waste your life waiting....move on, please!
To answer this question fully more information is needed. What kind of kissing is going on? Cuddling shouldn't be a problem but at that age showering together is not okay. This sounds like a huge boundary issue to me. Almost sounds like lewd and lasivious behavior to me. There are laws to protect a child from inapropriate exposure. This sounds indecent. I am not exactly sure how the law would spell this one out but each state is different about this. Call law enforcement or SRS annonymously and ask these questions of these. IF she is being sexually abused by this man which I suspect then she needs someone to save her. She may not see it that way so be very careful. I would definately report this to SRS. Not okay.
I've stayed away from this thread, but now since it's drawn so much attention from the community, I guess I'll take a whack at it, just for amusement purposes.
This isn't a surprise.
Okay, first elaborate on what exactly do you mean by kissing? Cuddling I wouldn't be surprised if they are close. And, what exactly is he doing with his hands while cuddling?
Since you didn't initially elaborate in detail, I'm not sure what you are swallowing?
Okay, this is a bit strange, but not a complete surprise. One question though....if he was showering with her and she didn't mind him being there....Was he turned on by it? I know it's not a good thought to have, but had to ask.
It's understandable, considering your next statement.
I'm sure it was. I don't doubt that.
It's not disrespect, but more along the lines of improper. Societal rules.
Well, that's obvious from your statement.
Sort of, depending on many different variables.
No. You're just going by the environment which you grew up with.
I guess I shouldn't have bother to post a comment, considering I'm not a father.
Again, I cannot answer this question, because I have no daughters. However, if I did have one, then no I wouldn't.
Since I am not female or a mother, I guess not even hazard to answer.
This can be understood.
Whatever you choose to do.
I'm not actually in a position to tell you whether or not it's right or wrong. Social issues are often skewed by too many variables. Nor am I parent.
Only you can enlighten yourself. If you truly feel something is wrong, then do something about it or confront him about it. That's all I can say on the matter.
That is not acceptable behavior.
I once dated someone who told me he was a sex offender......AFTER I was 8 months pregnant with his child. Did I stick around to watch him hurt her? No way. I know it's a little different because these girls aren't your biological children, but think about a time when you might get pregnant. Are you going to want him to shower with your daughter?
I'm curious - did you ever talk to him? What was the outcome?
I so wish I had been around four years ago to help you answer this... everything has long been resolved by now. As a "what if," however, what if the girl was paralyzed? Oh, well then dad would have to bathe her, though not necessarily be naked himself. Here is a book review from Amazon, perhaps a copy would be in order for future relationships: The Naked Child: Growing Up Without Shame is a wonderful reference for nudist families and parents, and those who are interested in the subjects of nudity and its effects on children's development. The authors present a lot of academic research study summaries to support their conclusions, and also include a number of anecdotal interviews. I feel that, at times, the anecdotal material is kind of contrived, but, overall, it gives the conclusions drawn (namely, that children's exposure to social nudity is not only not harmful, but is generally beneficial) a more "personal" ring to them. I've owned this book for many years, and I still frequently use it when compiling research on the topic myself.
It has never been acceptable for a young girl to see a grown mans penis. I would talk to the girl about it and ask her how she feels about it...it cant make her comfortable, and I dont care what he says. I dont see that as innocent. She doesnt need his help showering, and if she does need help washing her hair, he can help her without exposing himself to her. I think its one thing to teach a child to be comfortable with their own bodies, but that comes from a parent of the same sex. Would it be weird for a mother to be showering with her 8 yr. Old son? Yes, that is equally inappropriate. Does her mother know he showers with her daughter? If she doesnt, she should.
I'm not a father but weighing the situation it's not a good idea that the father will take a shower with his daughter. Maybe the father has a relationship with her daughter or what we called incest. Better check it out.
I'm not a dad, I'm a girl, you see.
But I would definitely be alarmed at the sight of a dad walking around naked in the full view of his daughters.
I also wouldn't just vomit to see him taking a bath with one of his daughters. Perhaps, no, certainly, I would even call the police and ask them to look into a possible incest. I do not think I'd be overreacting if I'd do these things.
The daughters are really young and I feel that it's the responsibility of adults to protect them.
If it turns out that incest is not happening, then good. But I definitely cannot have a relationship with a man like that.
This is my two cents. You can agree or disagree with me. Just the same, I really hope everything would turn out OK in your household.
Thanks guys. But the worst part is he insists its normal and that he's done that with both his daughters whilst he was married to their mother. I've never even thought of such a thing until I witnessed it..
If you were in the U.S. you both be headed to jail within an hour, since we know who you are.
maybe he's a pathelogical liar or a psychopath or a man who was molested . hello?
This sounds like a very dangerous situation. He may be abusing the girls sexually and teaching them that it's completely normal. I would be very concerned for the girls' safety...
This kind of behavior is wrong and not acceptable. A grown man should not be doing those things at anytime. Try talking to him about his behavior and tell him if he continues to shower with his child, you will be forced to call the authorities. A child should not be exposed to genitals. Who knows what he is doing when you are not around? Safety first... otherwise you risk the child's development and possibly their life. Abused children often don't know they are being abused and will believe it is normal behavior. They learn to accept it and in later life, they often get into abusive relationships.
I came from a conservative family. My parents taught me good values and how to respect people who are older than me. In your husband's case, it is improper to walk in front of her daughter naked or go shower with her. Though we say, the girl is 8 years old, still, the fact that he is "naked" is not an acceptable thing to do. You know what? I'm beginning to think that your husband is a paedophile. Sorry to tell that. But I think he is. A true father would not think to do such thing to his daughter even if we say that she is just 8 years old.
Yeah. It's really weird. I suggest that you talk to your husband and tell him what you feel about it. He should be his daughter's role model in good values!
wow thank goodness am not insane! I really thought I was being an old fashioned stuck up but its great to know you guys understand this. Thank you all!
I would back off and stop getting hysterical - you are all pointing at incest and indecency !!!!! I personally think it is time the guy stopped being naked around his daughters but what the heck !! he should be maybe told it is time to stop doing it - maybe nobody has done this, you say he is divorced - has he been bringing up these girls on his own ?
I am amazed at the disgusting minds of women sometimes - and I find the unnecessary pain and suffering caused by mindless harpies totally unbelievable.
The guy quite probably has a good relationship with his kids and has probably not realised he should have considered the male/female issues of nudity and growing children a little earlier. A quiet chat is required - not a female swat team !
Isn't it indecency when you walk around "NAKED" in front of your daughter?
"WALKING AROUND NAKED" - How can you explain this one? Isn't it a form of indecent act?
I actually never thought of this as incest, but more of boundaries between a parent and a child. I am not a parent myself and I understand that there is a deep love between a father and a daughter but what I wondered was is showering together a form of love or an act of no control by the parent? In my day this would be considered immoral and lack of respect by the parent for the child as well as the child for the parent.
He is a good father and I would never associate him with incest which is probably why this is disturbing me a lot. I've never thought of this before and I never knew such things existed. We did have a brief chat this morning and he was very concerned with my reaction to it.
He is a good man and treats me very well so I guess I need to understand this fully in order for us to move on, which is why I came here to ask for opinions. Thank you, though, you've been helpful.
recommend1 before you start going off on all these well meaning women take a look at what it could be. You could be right and this could be totally innocent and he may just need a talk to but there are other signals here. I work with kids every day that have been sexually abused and it messes them up for life. Showing porn to a child is not okay so why would walking around naked in front of a guy be okay?
If by 'well meaning women' you mean the witch hunt going on here, then I could change the description to a lynching party maybe.
What this guy is doing is wrong, but it is neither sexual assault, abuse or pornographic. There is every chance the guy has developed this relationship 'style' with his daughters from when they were tiny - especially if he has been living on his own with them. Nudity is NOT abuse, some less repressed cultures do not even consider it slightly rude inside a family - it is the screwed up moralising, abusive and pornographic nature of western society that brings out such sick opinions as I see in this thread.
The OP is a grown up adult and can ask these questions herself, she will be able to judge whether the guy is just naive or doing anything he should not be from a simple conversation. The guy is not hiding any of this and so obviously consider it normal - he needs to know the danger of the situation and the very real danger he is in if the OP takes up the advice she is getting here.
There is no witch hunt going on in this thread.
If this is his 'style', now living alone with them, a responsible, divorced father would be even more aware of his parenting 'style' to ensure a healthy, respectable relationship with his daughters. If he is abusing his relationship, of course, he will deny it.
And it's not just women who have responded. The OP asked for responses from the information she gave us.
well if that's the case- the person who started this thread, since it's obviously bothering her so much, so just go away. gut instincts are our only reality sometimes.
First, get in touch with the child welfare. Explain your situation and thoughts and if they think you are right they will act fast to get the kids out of there. I 'm a father of three, two girls and a son which are now adults but i can say in my mind and from my heart it's not correct.
Over here in europe where i now live there have been a number of cases of incest. Fathers having sex with his daughters and this must start some where, ie. in the shower. It doesn't take a lot of brains to see that your friend/man is very near to being a child molester.
My second thought for you is get rid of him and ask yourself what happened with his first marriage. Seems funny as you say he did the same things with his girls in that marriage as well, but nothing was done about it.
Get as much help as you can, it must be stopped. You have nothing to loose as you say he is repulsive to you now.
Good luck and take care.
Whilst I do not think it is the norm for most dads to shower with their 8 year old daughter, or wander around naked in front of them, I do think some of the postings are bit over the top. I personally would find this very uncomfortable to be around and would take steps to either put a stop to it or end the relationship.
Initially I would calmly sit down with my partner and discuss the situation. If he still does not 'get it' and continues behaving in such a way that causes you to feel uneasy then perhaps you have to take a long look at where your relationship is heading.
Do you know the ex-wife? Is there any mileage in contacting her to see why the marriage broke down and if his behaviour towards his daughters gave her cause for concern?
Is there any other behaviour of his that would lead you to think that he was in any way interested in small children in an inappropriate way? Does the child display any inappropriate behaviour towards other male adults?
Calling in Child Welfare I would say is a last resort and only to be undertaken if you really really believe there is wrongdoing. If you go down this route then you will have to accept that you will have called time on this relationship and could be opening a can of worms that you really were not prepared for.
Go with your gut instincts, they are usually the best.
Red flags showed be waving frantically for you at this point. I'm assuming when you say "naked", you mean fully un-clothed. In western culture, this as well as showering nude with pre-adolescent offspring is generally unacceptable.
You may want to keep your antennas up and check the content of any computers (just to be on the safe side). If anythng strange is going on, you may be putting yourself in harms way.
yes its the whole full monty naked.. absolutely no clothes on.
I always thought his relationship with her is weird from day one but this just woke up fright night in me.
I don't think its a matter of calling child protection service, its just bad parenting from my side and I guess I need advice on how to combat it and you've all been helpful. Thank you all!
As you say maybe what i wrote is over the top.
But my problem is that here in europe we have had a number of cases where fathers have had incest with there daughters. There is the case in Austria where a father arranged his cellar with special rooms and a secret door. He told everyone his daughter had left home, but she was in the cellar where he had sex with her every night and fathered a number of babies with at least one dying. Or the case in south Germany with similar circumstances. In just these two cases the fathers believed they had done nothing wrong, and got what i believe to be a very light sentences.
I feel we should protect the children and if someone brings this out in the open then i think it is time to act and act quickly.
The penalty these fathers became is nothing to the penalty the children have to live the rest of their lives with.
It's like trying to stop the crime before the crime takes place and not wait till it has been commited which happens far to often.
Hope i've made my feelings on this terrible subject a bit more clear. I also take your point view seriously as well, and welcome any responce to my thoughts/opinion.
The situation raises some red flags for me, too, but before you call child protective services, I think you should sit down and have a talk with your boyfriend. Some families are simply more unconcerned with nudity than others and he may simply not realize how odd it looks to outsiders. Some families (including my own) also have different standards for different stages of the girl's life. My husband sometimes walks around naked in front of our 4 year old daughter, but he is already doing this less and less and I expect he will stop completely within a year or two. An 8 year old is a little old to be seeing her dad naked, in my opinion, but as recommend1 suggested it's possible he just got in the habit when the girls were young and never thought enough about the implications to stop as the girls got older. It's better to express your concerns openly than to go behind his back, unless his reaction to your concerns confirms your suspicions that there really is something inappropriate going on.
Even if you determine it's innocent, you may want to get out of the situation, though. Substantially different moral standards will only continue to cause problems!
My alarm bells started ringing when I read this.
I would say, be very careful and read up on Abusive relationships and the different types of sexual abuse - it is often very subtle, but always about control. Other forms of abuse can also be involved, eg mental, emotional and financial.
As an example, here is my sisters story.
A few years ago, my sister married for a second time. She had a daughter, who was thirteen, from a previous marriage. The three of them lived together and all was ok at first. Then the relationship between her new 2nd husband and her daughter became a bit odd.
The husband and daughter became very close, good friends, spending time on the computer together, bickering like siblings. My sister said she often felt like an outsider, but we all thought it was great that they got along.
But their relationship was too close. For example, my niece wanted a lock put onto the bathroom door and the husband said no. My niece would often be in the shower and the husband thought it was ok to sit in the bathroom and chat to her. This happened regularly when she was 13/14/15 years old. My sister wanted a lock put on too but he said no, that he didn't think there was anything wrong with him going in and chatting to her.
Again, we all thought, it is a bit odd, but maybe it is ok. They get on well.
Then he became very controlling with my niece. When challenged about it, he said he was trying to be a good dad and bring her up properly. We all thought, ok, he is a bit strict, but he is trying his best.
He also used to hide all her stuff.
In the end, his controlling behavious escalated to such a point that my niece nearly had a breakdown and had to have counselling. She was 15/16. My sister also called in the police and social services to make sure nothing sexual had gone on. Fortunately it hadn't. But the damage was done.
The whole family went for couselling, but in the end, they split up.
I helped my sister clear out her house and the loft.
In the loft, we found all the items that he had taken from my niece and hidden.
We also discovered the divorce papers from his previous marriage.
This made very interesting reading.
In the divorce papers, it showed he had on several occassions hit his first wife, one time just because she had the wrong colour tights on. She had a young baby and stayed at home to look after it. He woudn't give her enough money to feed her and her baby.
Reading his divorce paper was like finding the final piece of a jigsaw puzzle. My sister realised that it wasn't her fault, he was a serial abuser.
After they had split, my sister logged into his E-bay account to see what he was upto. She was horrified to see that he was buying baby clothes. Turned out, whilst he and my sister were married, he was having an affair and had got the other woman pregnant.
Several months after the other woman had had her baby, he turned up on my sisters doorstep to collect something and admitted he should never have left her and his life was back to the same point before he had met her. He basically wanted to get back with my sister.
My sister kindly reminded him that he now had a new child and that she hoped he wouldn't treat the child the way that he had treated her daughter.
Abuse is all about control. Abuse is often also very subtle.
It is also about boundaries.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Looking back at my sisters situation, the signs were there, but they were subtle to start with. Boundaries were being subtly tested and crossed. Once he had broken through the barriers with my niece and sister, it escalated to the point where my niece nearly had a breakdown and had to go for counselling.
You are feeling uncomfortable for a reason. It's a subtle feeling isn't it?
The reason is because your boyfriend is crossing one of your boundaries, but your boundary is a bit blurred and not very defined at the moment. You are thinking, hmm, maybe this is ok but you are still not sure. He is also very persuasive isn't he?
That is exactly how we all felt with my niece and the 2nd husband.
You also need to look at what else is going on, the bigger picture.
Look up on the internet, the various forms of abuse, mental, emotional, physical and sexual abuse.
Are any of his behaviours abusive?. What is his family background - were
his parents abusive? It runs in families. Why did he get divorced? Was he abusive towards his wife? Ask around.
Why does he have the children and not the mother? Does he say she is an unfit mother? Maybe he abused her and ground her down so she couldn't look after them?.
Is he subtly abusive towards you? Verbally, emotionally, physically?
Were your parents abusive towards you? If so, as a result you may have blurred rather than strong boundaries and let other people abuse you?.
Look up the signs of sexual abuse, it can often be subtle and yes it includes walking round in front of your children naked.
Why did he get up before you to have a shower? He must have had to wake the daughter up? Was he trying to hide it from you?
When you really start to look, you will see the signs.
Rely on your gut instinct, you aren't going nuts.
He is crossing a line that you feel uncomfortable about.
It may be innocent, but you need to be aware that it may not be, and if not dealt with now, could escalate into something a lot worse.
Read up about abuse and look out for other signs.
Abuse is often very subtle and gets a lot worse over time.
You know when it is going on, you get a funny feeling and don't want to be around the person.
The boundaries and roles need to be tightened up.
I think he should put his daughter first, stop taking showers with her, put his clothes on and be her Dad.
He is her father, she is his daughter. It is great that they are friends but he is an adult, she isn't.
He needs to pull back a bit, redraw the boundaries. At the moment, I think they are way too close.
Because she is only 8 it seems innocent at the moment, but will he still be having showers with her and running round naked when she is 10/11/12/13/14/15/16?
Ask him at what point is he going to stop.
She will be going through puberty soon, maybe she will put a stop to it herself.
Hopefully he will see the light. If he won't even consider it, and thinks he is doing nothing wrong, and wants to continue, and you are seeing other signs of abuse too, you have your answer.
Thank you for sharing your story. It's been very helpful and now that you mentioned it, I recognized some of the signs but I thought its how loving families operate. I myself was brought up in an abusive home so I've never witnessed this.
I thought that may have been the situation with your childhood. Mine and my sisters wasn't easy either.
A few years ago, I did some reading into abuse relationships and can now recognise many signs.
Fortunately I struck lucky with my husband. He had a happy childhood.
Unfortunately, I have a new boss at work who is definately controlling / abusive. Three of my work colleagues have recently developed strange IBS type illnesses. Pure coincidence? I don't think so.
Needless to say, I have started looking for another job.
Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
We showered/bathed with our 3 children when they were toddlers for convenience. One good thing that came from it was when my daughter was 4 a "family friend" exposed himself to her. He asked her to touch his "snake" and she told him it was a penis not a snake. She wasn't frightened (thank God) and the next told me about it very matter of factly.
8 is a little old for this to be still going on. Number one: I'd ask her about it very unjudgementally. If somthing inappropriate is going on, she's the one who needs someone to help her.
Number two: If you can't talk to your boyfriend about something like this, is he really the right person for you to be living with?
I brought up 5 daughters and there is no way their father would have ever showered with them except maybe when they were babies, and even then I don't think it happened.
Nor is walking around naked in front of them acceptable to me either. It certainly never happened in my household.
It might be entirely innocent so I wouldn't go calling 911 or protective services, but I would keep my eyes open, and keep a very close eye on the girl. If anything untoward is happening, she needs your protection.
ok.. the first time I read it.. I thought it was an abstract.
I did not know that it was actual...
ummm.. as for me, I really think it is quite uncommon and honestly I feel uncomfortable about it.
have you actually talked to him about it? Perhaps he has something to explain the activity or at least to defend himself.
I strongly feel that what you are feeling is normal as you were brought up in a different family. I really think it is better for you to have a serious talk with your boyfriend about this as keeping this issue to yourself could ruin the relationship you share with him...
hope this helps...
oh by the way.. just want share..
I was brought up by my father too ever since he and my mom got separated and never have we showered together... if we did.. it would surely be horrifying!!!.. but then again, cultures differ from each other and men also differ from each other.. so it would be better to talk things out with him
I know, I actually thought it was beyond horrifying and I don't know of any cultures that condone this...
Have you ever visited a nude beach (common in Europe and exist in the US as well)? How about a nudist colony? Natural hot springs around my area are often full of naked people, including families.
To walk around naked may seen obscene to you but it isn't to many people. Public bathing used to be common as well.
Having said that I would be concerned about it in our society. If you care about the daughters you should keep a careful eye on it while at the same time try to understand the customs are not universal and yours are not necessarily any better than his. And no, that does not mean you should condone incest, particularly with a minor - that is far, far over the top and cannot be tolerated.
yes I am aware of nude beaches and saunas that families participate in and I don't see a problem with public nudity gatherings, but we are talking about a private moment here. Shower time is a private moment in my opinion and to share that with a minor is crossing the parental border. That is what is concerning me, is the psychological impact it will have on the child as well as they way I view my relationship with him. I was hoping to spend the rest of my life with him and possibly have babies with him but how can I do that now when I discover this?
It is the shower time that would concern me too. Not the nudity inside a private home - I don't think that is really that uncommon.
My father-in-law used to tell me a story about entering the basement of a house to check the gas meter reading and finding the lady of the house vacuuming while dressed in a football helmet. And nothing else. People are strange, but that doesn't mean harmful.
Even showering with a daughter doesn't mean psychological damage if that's what it is: a shower to cleanse the body. If it turns into a snuggle affair then the father needs to be dragged out and shot.
Assuming that these actions have no hint in incest (actual incest, not just in your own imagination) then either you will have to learn that your own egocentric views of right and wrong will have to change or you need to leave the relationship. To demand that your future husband become a silly prude (his view, not mine) won't work.
When I first looked at your post, I thought it was 3 years old and thought it was fine. Of course, now I see it's an 8 year old and I think that's just too old.
It's highly probable he isn't intending to cross lines or I suspect he'd hide it from you if he thought he was. Still, it's something you need to address at least with him.
That does seem seriously odd - although there are nudist camps and things out there that people do attend - the bad thing about society is many assume the worst right off the bat - did you ever ask the Dad why he does this? Is he a believer in nudists? I knew a couple once - the mom , dad and kids all ran around naked and thought nothing of it - although I felt odd being around them - they seriosly thought nothing of it
you have realy answered you own question here in that the incident upset you so badly that you threw up,... your instincts will not fai you if you listen to them.
unless your one of those overly emotional folk that vomit on command,... i suspect you already know what has to be done here,.... you just want some one else to confirm your thoughts on the subject.
well,... here you are,...
you thoughts are hearby confirmed.
unless this man and his children are from some obscue tribe that practices such things in the jungles of where the hell ever,... this is wrong... period.
one,... pack your crap and leave,... not tomorow, not next week,... not after youv talked this out or sought therapy,... LEAVE NOW.
two,... think this over and decide if its worthy of notifying the athorities over. its possible that there is nothing incetual going on here, and that they just have an abnormal family dynamic,... iether way,... your OBVIOUSLYnot comfortable with it,...
three,.. i suspect that this will forever alter how you look at him,...just let it go and get out,...
four,.. you admit that you had an abusive childhood, and that it has possibly affectedhowyou might judge this,... with that in mind,... get out,... if you are in a situation that makes you uncofortable and admitedy cannot propperly judge it,.... step away.
five,... if he tries to tell you its all your problem, and you just need to be open minded,... if he uses this abusive past against you to cloud your judgement,... your getting used,... get out.
six,... what you decide to do about the children is up to you,... but you cannot help the girls without first helping yourself.
good luck and god bless,... you knew the answer before you asked the question.
A grown man, father, uncle over 18 yrs old should not be showering with their daughter who is a minor age 6 and up.
You swallowed your pride or morals?
Report this and be a part of society that cares.
OK, I do understand he may need to show her how to be clean ONCE or TWICE. Or he may want his kids to be carefree nudists or what not but there are child protection laws in USA and the showering is crossing the line to me. It sounds like he is pure American, so no cultural thing here. USA laws apply. Now, is the ex-wife a nudist? this could change things.
Otherwise, by not reporting this you are an accessory to this offensive act against a minor. Please do the right thing.
Yes, I am a father with a daughter and this is really sad to hear. I love my daughter with all my life but will not do that. Delve deeper into this to gain some perspective.
Wherever does it say anything about this being against any kind of law - this is a really nasty moralising way of dealing with this non-issue.
This kind of response comes from being so morally and sexually screwed up that you see what others do as so bad. This father may have no problems at all, in fact he may be considerably more sexually and morally enlightened than many of the posters here.
House-seller - why don't you just go ask the guy if he thinks what what he is doing is wrong, because you find it weird. Don't take anybody's advice until you have talked it through with him. Even those who suggest that getting him jailed and his kids taken away and him branded as a paedophile for life may NOT be the way to go, still find this a little weird or a little too far. Put the foul thoughts of others out of your head and go talk to the man with open eyes and ears.
I agree with Stacie L. I also think that I would ask his ex wife why she divorced him because she may have experienced the same thing, but never said anything to anyone. Get a hold of someone and tell them whats going on. The world is different, but this is far from what should be happening!
i dont really think a father should take a shower with her dauqhter because thats like almost hurrasment so if i was that qirl i wouldnt im not sayinq sshe shouldnt love him or anythinq i jzt find iht wronq...
omqq....that is really creepy i mean i would NEVER do that with my father even if i was mental....and r uh still with him....cuz if uh are that is so scary.......
ok,.... i've rea al th chimed in advice,... i've read al of houssellers retorts,...
it official,.... you, my dear silly little troubled girl, are pat o the problem.
you are in a reationship that you are deaply enough invested in that you are willing to raltionalize behavior that makes you phisicaly ill,....
you are the stuff of future crime dramas
good luck and god bless,.... see you in the rap sheets
no,... wait,... i'm not finished,...
who in hell asks this kind of question in this kid of arena other than an attention seeking drama hound?
your telling me that you dont have one solitary friend that you could confide these fears in? no nieghbor? no family?.... a sister? your mother?,... a flippin cousin?
you are seeking att through an annon. blog space about things that NORMAL people would talk in hushes tones about to thier priest about,...
quit using the well eaning people here for your entertainment and ago boosting excersizes.
and with that in mind,... lets allquit getting used,.... i fell for it too,... shame on me for caring,... but now i;m done with it,... i sugestthe ame to every one else.
It feels awful to me too, the idea...I think it could only lead to worse imo.
This father is either an idiot, who does not know what he is doing or may be just waiting for his daughter to be a little bit older and right now he is "grooming" her for future use. In that case you are the only one who can help her right now. But before you call the police you should seriously talk to him. It's a bad game for all of you. Walking naked on a beach has nothing to do with that.
Hopefully someone will report this thread to the police in Berkley and they can get an IP address and notify the authorities in that area and poof... they will be knocking at the door.
As a mother of two daughters who both have a loving relationship with their father, and a daughter myself, who had a very close and loving relationship with my own father, I can tell you only that this is not normal, and that for the sake of that little girl, this needs to be reported. When my children were very babies, I would sometimes take them in the shower with me, but for my son, that stopped by the time he was two. My husband wouldn't take either of our girls in the shower with him, even when they were babies. Changing times or not, it is not appropriate for a grown man to shower with his eight year old daughter.
Speaking as a woman, no - a father has no business showering with his daughter under any circumstance. Not in general western culture. Some cultures are more tolerant of some nudity (Southern Europe and Scandinavian territories for instance). But that might be a different thing here. Some people have a huge guilt thing around nudity and some don't. But a parent or father who does that is conditioning his daughter to feel okay being naked around other guys and that is "grooming", pure and simple.
If a social worker came knocking on the door, that would be the end of it. If a Social worker asked you did you know your husband / partner was showering with your daughter and what knowledge you had of it...do you realise the issues here? You could also be answerable. I am sorry for saying this but I'm saying it anyway. You are responsible for those girls.
I wonder what happened to the man's previous wife, and under what circumstances they are not together any more? And the girl's need to be better educated - and made aware of the facts of life - the sooner the better. It needs to be done carefully so as to not give the girl(s) a shock or bad experience... that needs careful handling. Young people are so impressionable. Sorry, but this sounds so wrong on so many levels. Try asking someone who's been abused by a father-figure, see what they say... red flags all the way here...
well, obviously, you got our attention! am I out of line to say this, but are these kinds of posts on a writer's site kind of inappropriate? I mean, why would you come to these forums, instead of going to, say, a psych counselor, for help? Are we experts on what is appropriate for fathers and daughters? uh, no! But people often bring their very personal relationship questions here and ask other hubbers (a quite diverse population of WRITERS) for their help. It amazes me! And I really don't like to see this kind of suggestive question here - putting these images of incest into our wee heads - what are you thinking? Don't you have friends or professionals to go to? or are you just trying to get our stories and grist for your mill?
OK - so, as for the question - NO, NO, NO! Of course it is not appropriate - the man is not being a good father - and you should leave the relationship pronto and try to get some help for these girls of his! that's so obvious.
The more I'm reading all your comments, the more am realizing that my initial instincts were right. Yes I am guilty in trying to still be in this relationship but wont that make me a coward if I just walk away?
And to those of you who think am only writing this to get noticed, do you really think I would waste my time and come here if I had someone to talk to? I've moved to a new neighborhood. My family and friends are far away from me and I'm still trying to get in the good books with the neigbors. I came here because its easier to ask an anonymous person their opinion on a delicate situation like this because its usually not biased.
yes, that all makes sense to me - but still, there are professionals who definitely can help you better than some anonymous people online, who, by the way, you know nothing about, really and should not use our opinions as the bottom line!! I mean, please don't get me wrong, but I feel that you have an issue about how you choose people to trust and could benefit in many ways by seeking counseling for this relationship with this man, and also for your own methods of picking trustworthy people. I'm not saying we would lead you astray, but online is not really a good place to bring your personal traumatic situations. For one thing, these posts are available to outsiders, this is not a private site. Please, go get some real help with this, ok? I'm not trying to be cruel.
you wont be in the good books with your neighbors when the young girls say the right thing to the right person at school,.... and red flags wave for teachers,... and the house is raided by child services,... and your pinched as a co-conspiritor.
do what your heart and gut told you to do to begin with.
leave,... and call the cops
There is no cowardice in walking away if you walk away to protect a child, and yourself. In fact, that's the courageous way to go forward, walking away. It's easier to stay where you are, because change is scary. It's much harder to take the steps to change.
Don't except those lousy guilt trips. You came earnestly seeking help. Talk to him. Check his computer. Get advice from SRS. You can ask without giving names. Never saw my dad naked. Red flags in my opinion but give him the benefit of the doubt and talk to him about it.
First off, call children's services. 2nd, move out. This is not normal. Do not accept it as normal.
Best case scenario: The man is overcompensating with his daughters for the divorce from their mom and is just clueless on acceptable boundaries as they head into pre-teendom (which as you know, happens a LOT earlier than 13 these days!!)
Since he obviously has full or part custody of his children, sexual abuse was either not alleged or proved in his divorce. He simply may not know better.
Likely future concern: Having that blatantly sexual context for his relationship with his girls (walking around nude) will definitely warp them. How are they going to find (in this society) a boyfriend or husband with such nonchalant views or who will shower them with the overt amount of affection and attention that dad "showers" (sorry, couldn't resist) on them?
As stated in above posts. The normal parental boundaries are missing here.
Worst case scenario: The 8-year-old daughter makes some innocent comment or writes a story about her dad or draws a picture in school that tips off a teacher who is bound by law to report it. In comes CPS and YOU get in trouble for not protecting the innocent young girl.
Trust your gut here. You threw up when you saw this.
I tend to go with Mighty Mom's "clueless" theory.
Parents are sometimes at one end of the spectrum or another when it comes to "too many boundaries/rules" and "none". Most know enough to find some comfortable place along that spectrum that works for their own personalities, values, and family. The clueless ones select an extreme end of the spectrum and apparently don't have the reasoning ability to figure out that things are always just black and white.
This guy doesn't sound like a boundaries guy. In fact, he seems very much like a no-boundaries kind of guy. The kids are probably "spoiled brats" because he probably doesn't set limits on them in any number of ways. He seems like the type that wants that "wild and free" and "not at all repressed"/oppressed" or with "hang-ups about nudity". (I don't know anyone with a perverted relationship with his daughter that I know of, anyway; but I'd think he might be less open about it if that kind of thing were going on. I don't pretend to know much about the behavior of such people other than that SOME do hide it very well.) A lot of people (often father especially) equate "fun" and "being free" with affectionate physical play, roughhousing, etc. Again, clueless about a lot of the other types of activities that are fun, engaging, and entertaining for kids. (Going out on a limb here, but I can imagine how, maybe, his first wife just got sick of his cluelessness - although, of course, it would be too much to go so far as to assume that's the case ). To me, his behavior and his daughters' isn't "vomit-worthy" from what you've seen of it - just, maybe, "re-thinking-the-relationship-with-him-worthy" (if only because cluelessness gets pretty tiring after that first several years of it).
My opinion is that what he chooses for his own lack of boundaries on his own nudity may even be his business (although, personally, I don't think it's the wisest thing); but his daughters need to learn that they have their own boundaries when it comes to their own personal space/nudity/etc.
For reasons beyond just the no-boundaries/shower thing, I think that guy's got about two/maybe four years before those girls become a real problem for him - and he still won't have a clue about why they do.
it would definitely be my last date with this guy.
I'm a believer in listening to our 'gut' reactions, and yours was loud and clear.
And no, you're not a coward for listening to your inner voice.
I am not advocating this situation, but the father's intentions are necessarily wrong. When I was little, under seven or eight, I can remember taking showers with my dad, too. He was never inappropriate in any ways nor was was he a super affectionate, touchy-feely type of parent. In fact, he was a very modest man throughout his life. I don't remember ever noticing the sexual difference or feeling like it was wrong. When I was old enough to become aware of the difference between the sexes, the showers stopped.
I meant to say the father's intentions are not necessarily wrong.
I have four children, one girl and three boys. When my children were very young I wasn't too concerned about them seeing me undressed. The only time I shared a shower with my children was on family vacations. We go camping each year and it is much easier to take them into a public shower house with you when they are small. But even then I wore a bathing suit until I had them washed and I only removed the bathing suit after they were on the other side of the curtain. My youngest is now three and none of my children are permitted to see me undressed or see my husband undressed. I think that once children reach a certain age that it is unacceptable to see their parents in this manner.
I would suggest that you go with your gut feeling. If it is bothering you that severly that you actually vomitted then maybe there is something actually wrong with the situation. Only you can decide what actions need to be taken. Best of luck with everything.
I know one thing for sure - if my kids were to see me undressed now, it would ruin their lives! (but then, they are a lot older than 8! )
There is absolutely no reason that any man should take a shower with their child. No good reason that it. They are too close for comfort and I would be careful. If he is innocent (nothing going on) then he is really a naive person tp believe that society will accept that. I am a suspicious person by nature and I think he is fooling around with his daughter.
If you are living with someone whose behaviour you find odd surely the first thing to do is to raise it with him?
He may be unaware that it is inappropriate - I know that may seem odd to some / most people but hey, we all have different family rules.
In my household we have no problem with swearing for example - we just don't, but we tone it down when we have visitors. Other households can't even say the pooh word.
So different rules - he just may not realise that the age for nudity / showering is now, probably, inappropriate.
On the other hand, because there always are two sides, or nearly always. You need to raise the issue with him. Deal with your jealousy over the childs attention, a child with divorced parents who needs all the love she can get.
Talking. That's the first thing to do.
Even though very disturbing, I agree with Mark. My first instincts were that he is definitely fooling around with her but after reading some of the comments, I must say that he maybe doing it without realizing that his behavior is inappropriate. Talk to him before doing anything drastic like calling child protective services. Dragging a child through that may end up hurting her especially if he has not done anything wrong.
This topic alone, distrurbed me.. I can't even bring myself to read anymore of this ... this is sick
This is a TOTAL NO NO. This is disturbing. Father shower with daughter, oh no!!! God forbid I hope she does not have any form of disability, but whatever the case, he has a lot to answer to the Most High. What is he teaching her? What is he thinking? Not because she is his daughter still he has no right to be butt naked in front of her. Have you tried taking her aside like one on one and talking to her on "pride and self awareness?" Cause maybe that can help her understand that what daddy is doing is wrong and he must respect her even though she is small. If he doesn't, she will grow up disrespecting and embarrasing him. Possibly try talk to him. If he doesn't seem to or try to change, then think of "bye bye".
This is not only wrong it is disgusting and disturbing. Call Child Protective Services right away. This is not normal behavior in any culture. This is the wrong guy for you.
It's a complex issue. Nudity should be something that is accepted as a part of being a human being. But, with regard to a child's developmental age, what might be OK when a girl is three or four, showering with her father, is not OK once the child is older.
Neither I nor my husband thought anything about his taking our daughter into the shower or my taking my daughter into the shower and cleaning up at the end of the day; that's just the way it was, until she was about 4 or 5, when other thoughts began to form in her mind and ours.
There's a cut-off point for this shared nudity. Before a child reaches a self-consciousness about her body, it's time to shift away from this practice.
Somebody needs to call Dr. Phil about this.
Tis rather odd! My daughter is 7 and I've never showered with her or walked around in my nuddy when she's around, cos it's not right!
That is absolutely, 100 percent INAPPROPRIATE!!!
Now, I have two sons with autism. Someone has to teach them how to shower, and I'm a single mom. So my oldest is nearly 10 and I am ready for him to learn to shower and take care of this himself.... so I will be putting on a SWIMSUIT and getting in there with him to teach him. I am doing it now rather than waiting any longer. But that is totally different. Back on topic .... She is EIGHT? And also has an older sister? And he walks around naked? And I'm assuming he was naked in the shower as well?
Pack your stuff and leave. Something is WRONG. I'm sorry
This kind of parental behavioral pattern should be treated as absolutely abnormal in any culture. But still I would tend to disagree with most of the other posters that the father is guilty and should be arrested. NO... THAT SHOULD NOT BE THE JUDGEMENT... THAT THE FATHER IS COMMITTING A CRIME... UNLESS IT IS PROVED. This is as simple as that! Where's the proof that he's either a pedophile or this is an act of incest? CONSULT A CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST FIRST. I would assume you've otherwise a stable relationship with this man, then visit a clinical psychologist together and confirm what's actually going on in the household is a criminal activity.
IF IT'S PROVED THAT THE MAN IS ATTEMPTING TO SEXUALLY MOLEST HIS DAUGHTER, REPORT IMMEDIATELY AND RUN.
Yes... he will admit right up to it.
How about the detectives and CPS investigate what is happening in that house?
As I said earlier... if he is not doing anything wrong then there should be no problem explaining his actions to the authorities.
None at all, right?
In this case any inference about what's going on inside the house could be properly drawn by a clinical psychologist. This kind of behavioral patterns are sometimes very complex in nature to sort out and certainly this is not a job of any person who has no academic and professional background in clinical psychology.
Well aware of what clinical psyche is man.
I just think you should not allow him the time to cover his tracks. Coerce his daughter or worse... the fact is CPS has all the professionals needed for this matter.
If you’re going to report CPS, you’re assuming the man in question is guilty. But if it’s proved eventually that the man is not guilty, the relationship between the two (OP and the man in question) may get seriously damaged permanently, which is not desirable.
On the contrary, if any clinical psychologist is consulted, they would be able to help sort out the problem amicably. If it’s diagnosed that the man is suffering from some kind of mental illness, they will advise medical treatment for him (and/or counseling, maybe to all the members of the household).
And there is a strong probability that you (OP) experience a complete turn around of the present situation in your home.
This is a really difficult situation. I agree that it's an unusual relationship. I feel uncomfortable with the way that most of the people posting make it sound as if nudity in itself is evil. We need to give our children a healthy view of their body, not make them ashamed of it, and some families are much more free and easy about this than others.
It would be unfair to brand somebody a child molester if they are not one, and of course it would be much more wrong to allow an abusive relationship to continue if it is one. The big problem is how to find out if it is. I would definitely try to talk to his ex-wife, tell her why you're worried, and ask her to be very honest with you. (Given that you're worried about the welfare of her children, hopefully she'll understand why you're coming to her).
Maybe you could also talk to his other daughter, in a sensitive way to find out if he still showers with her now that she's older, and to try to get more of an idea about him. Obviously this would need to be an extremely careful conversation, so as to not panic her or make her feel like she's done anything wrong.
I wonder if there's anybody in the "real world" that you can get advice from. Sounds a bit strange, but perhaps you could talk to a sympathetic GP. They may then be able to advise you on possible courses of action, and would provide you with someone human to talk to about this and take the pressure off a little.
I certainly don't think nudity is evil, but I do feel that there is an age at which a man should not be naked in front of his daughters, EVER. These girls are at that age.
As for the cuddling and kissing, I fully believe in lots of affection from both father and mother.So that's not a problem for me unless the nature of it is disturbing. It's one of those things I'd have to witness in order to say whether it was inappropriate.
Everybody is concerned about saving the child, nobody seems concerned in saving the relationship, which in turn will save the child more consistently. If OP escapes from the relationship and the man is arrested, who will look after the kids? http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/83051#post1783858
The relationship is already close to toast as she doesn't trust him already and will now think of him as a pedophile....the child is the real concern here. If he is innocent then they can look at whether or not they want to salvage the relationship... I am guessing maybe or not
The child is first and fore-most.
I do not care about any relationship to the point where I think that the risk of a young girl being molested by her father, is worth a relationship.
If that lil girl is molested in the time people sit around and justify their inaction, and active participation after a certain point of knowing and not stopping it, it will be her/their fault also... as surely as she brought her home for him.
No grown man can justify or excuse being in a shower with a child of that age... and I believe all know this at some level. Thus the aversion to speaking to the authorities... as we all know they would most certainly arrest him.
This is just creepy. Maybe he was raised nontraditionally and just doesn't understand this is inappropriate. If you care about him, you should probably talk to him about it. Maybe he doesn't comprehend that his baby girl is way too old for this and its just wrong. Typically if he thought he was doing something wrong he'd not do it in front of others. Either way it needs to stop and the kids need counseling.
I'm a mandated report and I would turn him in.
And he could be grooming her also to see how she reacts to his doings with his daughters and and if she would be receptive to the whole perverted mess.
Some psychos like company, there have been a lot of couples who do perverted things together and he may be hoping she likes it, or she will just learn to like it for him.
See, that's the bit I disagree with. I don't see nudity as wrong, especially in the home. Children should grow up with a healthy attitude to the body, and not feel that it's a shameful thing that needs to be covered up, etc.. But that's my opinion, and I know a lot of people disagree.
The relationship won't save the child if she is being abused. If abuse is going on then it needs to be reported, as no child should be left in an abusive relationship. Hopefully the children's mother or another relative would be able to step in if that were the case. The difficulty is knowing whether it is or not.
I agree that talking to the boyfriend sounds sensible before doing anything drastic that would affect the whole family, although it sounds like the poster has already spoken to him. But to be honest if he were an abuser would he be likely to admit it?
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