raped. If the mother choose to keep the child, how should the child be raised in regards to the dad, etc?
yeah, i don't think there should be much bonding with the father.... especially since should be behind bars
The woman will keep the child or not it is completely her decision but this is for sure that the child won't have any good connection with the father. The mother have to raise the child by her own.
Exactly, the dad could end up raping the child.
And she will raise a wonderful child, a beautiful child that was created out of darkness, and the child will make her smile forever.
Margolyn, you are right! The child is the innocent party here-- didn't choose to be born. People should see that child as a blessing, instead of an unwelcome consequence.
I've known children who were the product of rape that had a loving family and grew in to some of the most amazing people you will ever meet. I have also met those who were the product of rape who were awful rapists and people. (I meant that rape is awful, not that they were awful at raping people. That came out awful.)
As in all cases I say it is something that the people involved (the mother mostly) need to be able to decide. It is for they who have to live with the decision at hand.
A woman should have the right to what she wants with her body regardless ! It is her body.
Yes its her body, but why would you want to shoot yourself in the foot? Cause you never gonna walk right again, now will you? Give the baby away to people who will care and love, they too do not care how he was was conceived, they only care about the beautiful baby you created just for them. Sometimes lemonade is made out of lemons.
Next time you're raped and pregnant that's what you should do.
I hate to tell you this but that is exactly what I did under the same stressful circumstances, but you would have known that if you had seen my previous statements, now wouldn't you?
It wouldn't have been known as you didn't state it till this post.
To autumn18 and geordmc: Margolyn has some unresolved guilt and issues which is evident in her insecurities. She keeps asserting her opinions regarding this matter ad infinitum. No one wants to hear it anymore. Margolyn is entitled to her opinion; however, she is not mature nor woman enough to let others do the same. Mature and secure people respect and honor other's opinions but immature and insecure people believe that EVERYONE should have the same opinion as THEM. Margolyn has some deep psychological issues which a good psychiatrist could remedy through intensive therapy. Do anyone else agree with me? Good, thank you.
Margolyn comes here daily for the past six months and harasses everyone and i wrote a post all in caps earlier tonite asking people to turn her in===if you read her posts for the past six months 123 of them you will see how dangerous she is to rape victims---i have been doing rape counseling for years and this woman is saying horrible things like---mommy,mommy why did you kill me to victims of rape who have chosen abortion and she is telling people they should kill their rapists this is cyber bullying and is against federal law
Frankly, I think you're the one whose doing the bullying. She has said repeatedly that she was proposing an alternative and that no one is making the raped woman keep the baby. Now you're telling everyone to report her because you don't like what she said. It's a forum, people have responded to her and she has responded right back. That's how it works.
To Cassie Smith: Anjegirl is not the problem. She is helping others. Margolyn is indeed bullying and demeaning those who elect to disagree with her views. If you have noticed(probably not), it is Margolyn who is monopolizing this point. She should be reported and forever banned from the HubPages community. Margolyn is prosletyizing women who are raped to endure unwanted pregnancies and to have unwanted children. This is inhumane and egregious on Margolyn's part. She should mind her business and live and let live! I gather that you are on Madolyn's side!
You have a reading comprehension problem. How many times does Margolyn have to tell you that she is proposing an alternative. Do you just ignore what she's posting? She has posted that she believes women should have a choice but she obviously wants raped women to think about not having an abortion the way you want women to have the abortion. You're not any different from her, you're just the other side of the coin.
Clearly Margolyn has found her one supporter and cassie when you have read all the posts she has posted for the past 6 months on this one forum, as I did before deciding to report her, then maybe you will see why the people here who she interacts with eventually see that this is a dangerous woman who is bullying and preaching to unsuspected people most of whom are victims of rape and my issues with her began two days ago when I simply told the story of one of my rapes and she got all over me and then I realized this is something she does every day for the past 6 months. May I asked if you have been raped and if you were impregnated from the crime? Margolyn is a 67 yr old woman who is not healthy mentally and she should have grown out of her anger and it is very clear she has not===she comes here to shove her beliefs down the throats of people who disagree with her and who abort and rape baby===and if you read more than this one post as gmwilliams and I have done maybe you will want to come back and say "sorry?"
To anjegirl: Dearest one, keep on helping women. Pay these two no attention whatever. They are both of the same cloth. These women have issues and are indeed challenged in more ways than one. I bless you, anjegirl for your intelligent and humanistic analysis on this subject. Just report Margolyn and let it be. Peace to you and yours and a Blessed New Year.
Oh please, Margolyn's opinions are shared by many people, they're just not as vocal about it. And so far all your posts have been on this topic so you're not any better than Margolyn so take that plank out of your eye. Furthermore she is no more dangerous than you are and you are being overly dramatic in accusing her of that. No I have not been raped or had gotten a child by a rapist, I am one of the fortunate ones, but you don't have to be a rape victim to sympathize or empathize. The experience has marked too many women, and how each woman handles it is their own struggle and journey and you can rightfully disagree with Margolyn's opinions. I do draw the line when you and gmwilliams over there are ignoring what she has been saying and trying to silence her by banning her. That is not right. And gmwilliams seems to be thinking she's the God of Hubpages. I mean really, who says "Begone!" nowadays. And she was serious!
NO,NO,NO, You just don't get it do you.SOUL EVOLOUTION! That is the max.potential of any human.If a woman figures she has the right to destroy and murder a human being that she is carring to term.Then may she live with that for the rest of her life!
Every woman knows that she will have to live with the decision of abortion and it's NOT your place to interfere in her life. Got it?
I don't think you got it. No one here wants or will interfere. All we do is offer other options. NOW DO YOU GOT IT?
Each person knows their options. All you are doing is plugging this forum thread for your own self important attention grabbing reasons.
Good show on you.
Pot, kettle. Please amaze us with more of your philosophical prowess.
Nice try. I'm not attention grabbing, and NEVER have been. You're beginning to show off your true color Repairguy and I have to let you know, it's not a pretty color you're presently showing.
It's always been my position to point out the actions of others, not for my benefit but for the benefit of the individual. If people choose to be hypocrites, then I want them to admit.
I'm not a hypocrite. My life isn't about me....therefore cannot be a hypocrite.
But, again nice try at attempting to make appears as so I am.
MOMMY WHY DID YOU HAVE TO KILL ME? I DID NO WRONG TO YOU...
I have never stated she shouldn't have that right. It's her choice, yes. Don't forget it, I have mentioned it many times here. We must respect the rights of the mother, but we also have the right to give her more information so she can base her decision on the basis of all sides of the issue. That's all...More informed, makes wiser and better decisions.
i agree with Cagsil on all accounts. i have to say that if i found out that i was the child of a rapist and i was born through violent criminal action. . . a hateful act rather than one of love...i almost think it's almost unfair on the child to bring it into the world. i know of someone who had an abortion for that reason and has never looked back. she knew that she would never be able to love that child as much as her others. she did it out of selflessness only! margolyn, do you eat eggs? think about it.
Or maybe you would think how glad you are to be alive. It's not your fault your mother was in the wrong place at the wrong time, what's important is she allowed you to live, and you did, and you went on, and did wonderful things in the world, and you sought out counseling for the issue. Give the child to people who want to love it.....that's all I suggest. Many have had to live with that issue, but they go on and become great people despite their kind of conception. They are happy to be alive.
No innocent should be killed because he was conceived in the wrong place at the wrong time. See Victimless?? on my hub....from the heart of a rape victim who gave the baby up and both survived the storm. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water, he is innocent.
And you dug up a 6 month old DEAD thread for what exactly? Looking for attention?
Looking for the truth, seek and ye shall find, and I did. It's not against the law to go back in history and find useful guidance. What's your problem?
What's my problem? You bring back dead thread for self gratifying reasons. When especially, you offer nothing in the manner of truth.
My truth is KILLING BABIES IS WRONG!! No matter how old the thread, it still needs attention and it still is of value. That's why HISTORY BOOKS are in schools....
No one said this thread was dead! except you. Don't like waking up the dead? Too bad.
Children will have male mentors coming into their lives. Teachers, family members, Uncles, etc. If not, these children will live with or without a father as many do and go on with successful lives. Sometimes life is not fair, but killing the innocent puts a hole in your soul.
The child will meet better people in the world than its rapist father. Mary wasn't raped but Joseph married her anyway and helped raised a SAVIOR.
We can do it too.
Who cares! 12-20 percent of all known pregnancies end in miscarriage. Jesus is the ultimate abortion-er.
I didn't know Jesus got pregnant? How did he become an abortioner?
I think it's clear they mean abortionist. One who performs abortions. Would it be Jesus that performs them or God though?
I only see abortion doctors doing them, I havn't seen Jesus or God physically doing them.
Ah, an interesting question. Your question suggests you don't see any difference between abortion and a miscarriage. One is the intentional destruction, the other is a natural interruption in human formation. Furthermore, you attribute that interruption to Jesus or God. It's an illogical question from someone who's not a Christian.
It's not Jesus or God who decides if a baby/embrio/fetus is miscarried. It usually do to chromosome disorders, vital nuitrients not being available to the embrio/fetus/baby, pharmeceuticals, caffine, STDs, obesity, and many more. Anything can happen when pregnancy first starts. Overall, it's very hard to control if you are going to miscarry or not as a mother. There's always an excellent scientifical reason for miscarriage. I'm not against believing in God or a higher power because I do. I just believe that his plan is already laid out for us from the decisions we make individually.
And no matter what you think, it is the mother's choice. Miscarriages happen later in pregnancy, but beyond 20 weeks it is considered and early birth.
I agree that miscarriages are scientifically explained and not the plan of a God. I just like to point out that since so many people say babies are gifts from God then how does a miscarriage fit in with that? If it's going well it's from God, when it's bad it's just science?
That's not what I meant. Some others may view it that way. When I was earlier in my pregnancy I had a scare that made me convinced that I was miscarrying. I didn't just think that it was a cause of science. As I stated above, his plan is already laid out for us from the decisions we make individually, is what I believe. I thought of it as a blessing if I had a miscarriage from one of the above reasons. I wouldn't have wanted my baby to go through life in pain because something was out of place. It's God's way of telling me there is a reason for this happening. Science backs it up.
And when you are pregnant, it's not only a gift from God, but from your significant other, biology and science altogether.
I understand your point of view and respect it. It comes down to simply different ways of looking at things that happen in our lives. Some see God as the master planner while others do not and some see it as a bit of both. I personally don't see a God in the equation but I understand that most people do and that's ok.
and what you choose to do with that gift as a mother is your own choice.
But you see, it isn't your choice, there is a father, also.
As much as women have decided men have no say... we do.
They are our children, also, that are being murdered.
Most men I know would not force a women to give birth if there were a valid reason for the abortion, rape, incest, life of mother, birth defect, but abortion for the sake of convienence is unacceptable. Especially if the man is willing to raise the child, he is going to give the rest of his life to raise them, a woman should be able to take 9 mos and see the child into the world.
And the fact that a man is not even asked, or included, or questioned, as to what he wants... well, it is very telling.
Abortion laws must be changed.
And they will be very soon.
I disagree. It's nice you agree that abortions for rape, incest, birth defect, etc. are acceptable. To say that she should be forced to carry the baby to term against her choice is very wrong to me. There are so many scenarios where this can hurt not only the mother but the child as well and even the father. Maybe I'll point out some of them later but I have to make this short.
A woman should always have full control if her body. Being pregnant isn't something you can hide. I'm sorry men don't carry the babies. God didn't make it that way.
I do agree that the father has a say, and there are many examples of women giving the baby up for adoption or the father just assuming custody. What I was referring to was if you were raped. Not just in the convience of abortion. My belief is everyone at this point in time has their individual right to their own choice. My choice would be to keep the child and give it up for adoption. But I am pro-choice. The law right now doesn't speculate and if you were raped how would the law and abortion centers prove it when the rapist hasn't been found?
Exactly - if the law allowed abortion for women who had been raped but not for other women, it would be down to the woman to prove that she had actually been raped. Which essentially means putting the woman on trial and subjecting her to an experience that is almost as traumatising as the original rape. Not to mention the time delays involved with going through the courts.
Thank you. Another case where the victim would be punished. But let's not get into the it's not the babies fault thing so it shouldn't be punished. The only punishment should be for the rapist. Although I don't advocate killing them like Margolyn does.
Whenever I hear that "it's not the baby's fault" argument, it just sounds to me as though the person is saying "the unborn baby is more important than the woman, so its rights trump hers". There is a kind of misogyny going on, I think. Or self-hatred, when the person making that argument is a woman rather than a man.
I don't advocate killing the rapist either. I believe that they should sit in jail to think about what they have done and possibly be rehabilitated.. It does happen.. although chemical castration is ofter needed.
I work in politics and for forty years the only suggestion to change or overturn Roe vs. Wade or to in any way revamp or change it is discussed by campaigning politicians. When the cameras are off and the election is over no one in forty years is suggesting any changes to the current law and no one should be! You speak about nine months of carrying a child like one would take dance lessons or a cooking class. I have for 60 years always been horrified at the idea of carrying and birthing a child. Horrified. No man should tell any woman to just incubate that child and hand it over to the father and there are no legislators in America who are planning to set up such a law and until or unless the Chinese decide to call in our debts and take over our country, which is a very real possibility, then no law will tell a woman she has to carry a child raped or not for the sake of the father. Not on the horizon.
I have an adult friend (nearly 50) who is the result of a rape. He still worries he might turn out the same as the Father he never knew. He is a wonderful person and I for one am glad he was not aborted. Having had a brief but intimate relationship with him about 7 years back, I know he was definitely nothing like his Father must have been. Even though we did not get together as a proper couple, we are still friends today, and I know if I needed him he would be there.
I imagine the "morning after" pill is available to victims of rape who've reported the crime in a timely manner and had a physical examination confirming the crime. I see nothing wrong with that. If too much time passes, though, then the woman would surely have a much more difficult time making that choice, and would be in the wrong herself. Rape is a unique and tough situation and should be handled as such, in my opinion. And like some others here have said, I know of someone who's the product of rape and who has overcome that fact.
suppose my question is what could possibly justify her not having the right to?
Yes I think a woman who becomes pregnant after a rape should have an abortion. It is unthinkable to me that anyone would think it is unfair to a fetus and therefore a rape victim should choose to magnify their suffering. Imagine a woman/teen starting to show and having people ask her oh who's the father and oh aren't you so happy? A constant reminder of that incident? I can't imagine. It's clear that it is mainly the Christian belief that all babies are beautiful miraculous gifts from God so it makes sense that they would be pro life. I obviously don't like abortion but if there was a time that clearly called for it I would think a rape would be it. I've been trying to conceive for over 2 years. Why would God chose to give that gift to a rapist and not me and my husband? Doesn't make sense to me.
Autumn, no one knows the answers why you cannot while others can, but if it were possible? would you adopt a child from a raped mother? Would you and could you love that child despite the crime? I think you would. That's why giving up the child for adoption makes so much more sense, and who knows maybe down the road the mother will feel differently and want to see the child again. Who knows?
Well with the help of doctors we do know why lol. Anyway if we decided to go down that road and adopt yes I would love the heck out of any baby that came to my home no matter how they were conceived. I understand that you are looking at it totally from the view that it's all about that unborn child. It's not about punishing it, it's not even a baby yet. It's about the woman and her decision. A decision that she now has to make because she was violated in one of the worst ways. I would completely understand and expect her to have an abortion. If she chooses differently then I hope the best for her and her situation.
it all depends on her decision. The child has no reason to be aborted
If the mother wanted the child, why would abortion be brought up at all? There are thousands of single mothers out there who raise their children without fathers and often those children turn out all right.
My own father died when I was 12. I turned out all right and so did my brother and sisters. Two parents are only wonderful if they love each other and have mutual trust and respect for one another.
Should a woman be denied the right to get an abortion if she was raped and why is the question. If a person says yes she should be denied the right, the child should be told the truth about his father. If the child dishonors the father in anyway, that child should then be killed. It's not a mindset that I can ever develop. It is however, what the christian god demands and that is usually the basis for the decision against the abortion in the first place. Now if the woman was a virgin before she was raped she must plan on a life as a single woman. No christian who actually lives by the rules their god demands, can ever marry the woman. The husband will surely discover on their wedding night that his wife is not a virgin. This situation demands that the husband kill his new bride if he desires to live his life as a true christian.
what? wha... where have you got these ideas from? There is no rule which states a Christian must be a virgin before they marry!!! Any marriage which is forced is invalid in Christian law. Read some Christian apologetics and you'll see how far off the mark you are. Where have you been all your life?
Lizzie, I beg to differ...
Deuteronomy 22:13-21 King James Version (KJV)
Readers Digest Condensed Version follows the long winded version.
13If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her,
14And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid:
15Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate:
16And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her;
17And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city.
18And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him;
19And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days.
20But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
Readers Digest Condensed Version:
" 13If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her,
14And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid:"
Married her, entered her, found out she wasn't a virgin(maid)
20But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die:
She Must Die.
I learned about this verse during my sunday atheist school classes. What did you do during your bible study classes?
And to address your statement concerning forced marriages, I offer these bits of heavenly advice for men.
10. Find an attractive prisoner of war, bring her home, shave her head, trim her nails, and give her new clothes. Then she’s yours. – (Deuteronomy 21:11-13)
9. Find a prostitute and marry her. – (Hosea 1:1-3)
8. Find a man with seven daughters, and impress him by watering his flock.- Moses (Exodus 2:16-21)
7. Purchase a piece of property, and get a woman as part of the deal. – Boaz (Ruth 4:5-10)
6. Go to a party and hide. When the women come out to dance, grab one and carry her off to be your wife. – Benjaminites (Judges 21:19-25)
5. Have God create a wife for you while you sleep.-Adam (Genesis 2:19-24)
4. Kill any husband and take his wife. -David (2 Samuel 11)
3. Cut 200 foreskins off of your future father-in-law’s enemies and get his daughter for a wife -David (I Samuel 18:27)
2. Even if no one is out there, just wander around a bit and you’ll definitely find someone. -Cain (Genesis 4:16-17)
1. Don’t be so picky. Make up for quality with quantity. – Solomon (1 Kings 11:1-3)
It appears that forcing a woman to marry you is the preferred method according to your bible. Women never do seem to get a break do they?
Read YOUR bible and find out I hit a bullseye.
Wow- it would be great watching you try to pick up women in a bar. You must have some great pick up lines.
This one never fails, Hi, I'm a slut in the kitchen, a chef in the bedroom and I toss a mean salad. Next most popular is, If you are what you eat, you could be me in the morning.
I am assuming that humor was your intent with the off the wall intro. My bad if I was wrong.
Lovely though those quotes are, they're not relevant to Christian teaching since they describe the rituals of the ancient Jews. The Old Testament is a history of the Jews, only a nutcase would assume they were a guideline for everyone. Christ came to make a few changes don't forget. If he had thought everything was as it should be, we would still only have the Old Testament.
Christians are followers of Christ, therefore paramount to Christian rational are the Gospels. Protestants get confused because they spend their time learning the entire Bible off by heart. This is what happens when you strip a religion of it's culture, resonance and philosophy and leave only a reference book for people quote.
Again with the protestant bashing. There are many who would argue that catholicism has taken its own interesting route by circumventing scripture entirely and making up its own rules. Your clergy's odd ideas of what constitutes chastity one case in point. I've read up on this quite a lot. It seems, in their minds, adult women are the only people they are prohibited from sleeping with while priests.
Emile, this is not protestant bashing, it is in defense of Christianity which is in danger of becoming a laughing stock by people laboring under the misapprehension that we are meant to go against all our reason and take the Bible in its entirety as word for word fact. The Old Testament is relevant only in so much as it is the background of the Christian faith; it is context in which the faith was born.
As far as your statement that Catholicism side-steps scripture, the entire Mass, which is central to the Catholic faith, is structured around the words of the Gospels. The Creed, which is said at every Mass, states exactly what Catholics believe, precisely in order to avoid bizarre interpretation.
And in terms of the clergy and celibacy, St. Paul makes a point of saying that men lying with men was an aberration. Not mentioning children should not lead you to the assumption that pedophilia is encouraged.
We aren't discussing what is encouraged as much as what is practiced. Your prejudice against all things not Catholic has been a thread in your argument any time I have read your posts.
Christianity, across the board, has serious problems which make it a target for criticism for those outside of your faith. Fighting amongst yourselves looks more to me like a slow cannibalization of the faithful than an attempt to make positive changes.
Log in your eye scenario, in other words.
I am not against all things not Catholic. I am pro-religion generally. I don't join in the anti-Christian stone-throwing that takes place on these threads because I think they're unkind. Nor do I think they serve to inform. If there were 100 other Catholics on this forum all having their pennies-worth I would probably stand back. As it is, people are making flagrantly outrageous claims about a faith which they apparently know virtually nothing and I feel someone's got to defend it .
This is not a people fighting amongst themselves, but a people divided for 400 years seeking to right a wrong. This is not a frivolous argument about who is better, but about what is true. I'm making lots of points here and they're met with insults. What's that all about?
If you are saying that my opinion is insulting, than I'm not sure what we can do about that. It is not meant to be. I am simply attempting to convey the fact that your points are not valid ones.
Here you insult others within your faith. Calling them nutjobs. I was simply commenting on the obvious prejudice.
Here you ignore the well documented culture within the priesthood. I was simply pointing out the obvious double standad between what is practiced and what is preached by your religion. You can read one study here.
http://www.uni.edu/coe/jrae/New_Folder/ … uality.pdf
If what I percieve as facts are insults, then I can't apologize for insulting you. I'm simply stating facts.
Emile, at no point have I denied that there are either bad or hypocritical people within the church. There are many and always have been and presumably always will be. I don't have a prejudice but a disagreement. with protestantism. Just as you have a disagreement with, and not (I hope) a prejudice against religious people. The insult is not your opinions about Catholics, for you are quite free to say what you like, but the fact that you will not concede on a single point of mine, even going so far as suggesting I am fabricating stories. This suggests bigotry on your part. Perhaps it is a mistake to have a theological discussion with someone who has no faith.
lizzie, if the old testament is a history of the Jews, and only a nutcase would assume they were a guideline for everyone, why do all christians use the old testament for their attacks on the homosexual life style. Is the old testament relevant or not? Only a nut job would assume they get to have their cake and they get to eat it.
Most christians I come across have the ability, and the right, to cherry pick the parts of the bible that apply and those which don't. That these rules vary from person to person, also makes perfect sense to them.
Emile, I believe the same can be said of every religion tat has attained some level of control over society. I find it typical that the catholic religion would allow priests to bed a man or child and yet they stillpublically rally against homosexuality. No true follower of any religion is required to obey the laws and rules of their chosen god. Everyone else has to obey but the true believers receive a lifetime exemption upon joining.
Is this how you find your facts? Take an ill-founded claim from someone and use it as a headline? Priests are under orders to be celibate. Full stop. If they break those orders then they are wrong. As wrong as any man who cheats on his wife and very much more wrong if he takes advantage of a child.
When you say 'all Christians' you mean American Protestants presumably? Protestants interpret the Bible any way they choose, which is why Christianity is so fractured and there are so many misunderstandings. Yours being a case in point.
Sorry lizzie butr you lost me with that one. Not sure what you mean by taking an illfounded claim and usingit as a haedline. The cliam I used was the one you made about the old testament. First you claim it is irelevant to today's christians. Did the mandate to ignore the entire first half of the bible come down from god, or up from the priests? I was under the impression that priests are also under orders to help and serve their congregations. How did anal rape and sexual abuse benefit all those young victims? It's refreshing to hear that the priest are at least considered to be wrong for this. That should make the little kiddies feel better about all the catholic love they experienced at the hands of the official pedophiles in your parish. Waht do I misunderstand lizzie. You claim the old testament is no longer relevant and yet you refuse to explain why it is used on a regular basis to condemn homosexuality. As a matter of fact you haven't addressed any of the points I raised ewith you. Unwilling to or unable to do so?
The ill-founded claim was the one above from Emile.
I don't know why you have to be so gratuitous in making your point. We all know how awful pedophilic abuse is. We know it, it is not part of Catholic belief and it is condemned. Perhaps you'd like someone tortured for it?
I have addressed the points you raised but I realise that in a hard-core protestant country it will be hard for you to recognise that as Christians we NO LONGER LIVE UNDER HEBREW LAW. That was 5000 years before Christ!
Catholics have the ten commandments, they respect the allegorical culture of Adam and Eve, the creation and so forth, but LIVE by the ideology of Christ. Christians don't stone women for adultery cos Christ said, 'whoever has not sinned cast the first stone', and that was the end of that tradition as far as Christians were concerned. In the New Testament it gives new guidelines: wives obey husbands, husbands treat wives like your own body.
A marked change I think you'll agree. The new Testament is full of such changes.
If you're really choked on the Old Testament then ask a Jew to explain it.
As far as your other comments are concerned, you're being intentionally rude so I don't feel I need to credit you by going further.
Is the old testament the words of your god or not? These words are used hourly to condemn those that are disliked by the christian faithful. You say your catholic and the problem is the protestants. The protestants claim the problem is you, every christian knows in their heart they are one of the true christians, no two sects can agree on what your god said or which parts are to be ignored by which groups od believers. Each and every religion puts it's own spin on the words from one supposedly all knowing being. If he knows so much, why do all christians feel the need to explain his words to everyone else? He knows all but is incapable of expressing himself I suppose. The christian faith spent 17 centuries killing the jews off as quickly as they could find them. The christian faith has spent as much time killing the muslims off as quickly as they could find them. I was under the impression that one of those comandments you hold so much faitrh in stated...thou shalt not kill. Those 10 comandments are like the rest of your religion. Selectively applied by those who claim to believe the strongest. If ytou cant obey the comandments from your lord, why would I consider letting the christian faith ram them down my throat? Very little od today's christianity has anything to do with your christ. Most christians are an insult to the memory of him they cherish so much. I am being intentionally rude, I figure it's better than killin everyone who disagrees with me or my fantasies.
I do not know how to be rude, many of our Christian laws are from the Jews, my husband was a Jew so I am somewhat familiar with that faith. Many followers of many religions are insults to them, that is why Christians, and the Jewish man Jesus forgives. There is no doubt the Christians have killed also, so why continue to kill innocent babies?
I learned a Savior was born from the Jewish community, who forgave the harlot who was about to be stoned, who forgave many of sinful natures. He NEVER ONCE SAID kill them. That's what my Sunday School classes taught me instead of hatred and murder. We have all been saved, did you know that? Even you...luvu
I am confused with the theological theory of his statements as well. Thanks for your post.
Mary was considered a Virgin, only because she was not with a man. Her giving life to an unwanted baby, DELIVERED US.
It appears you have confused Islam, and the Old Testament teachings with the words of Christ.
I suggest you study the New Covenant before making rash and ill informed statements.
Thats the vibe I got when I was reading too!
The information I derived my decisions are from the Bible KJV, not the Torah or the phone book. Bottom line is the question is would you have an abortion if you were raped? THAT IS THE QUESTION!! No, I would not kill the innocent victim of the rape, I would give it up for adoption and allow the child to become a participating human of our society. Children who grow up have families, get college educations, read scriptures from whatever book they choose and hopefully do not become terrorists.
Two wrongs don't make a right, Joseph married Mary despite her unplanned pregnancy. He could have had her stoned, but he was a true Christian man and protected them both. No man has the right to kill his wife in Christianity.
No one is denying her the right......hellllloooooooooooooo
No one denies her that right. She has that choice.
I wouldn't advise abortion. Rape is very grievous thing but the child is innocent. Although what brought about the pregnancy is really a bad experience, it could just be a blessing in disguise. I'll advise you keep the child and bring her in the fear of God and in a righteous path. Someday maybe when she's old enough you might want to tell her about her birth. But that shouldn't destroy the woman's life. A lot of things happen in life. Things we don't plan for and didn't envisage but we can always make something at out of it. God in his wisdom we have make a way for her to stand the storm. Punch line is don't go for an abortion. No matter how a woman got pregnant, babies are gift from God.
You are right. It could be a blessing in disguise, we will never know, but a lot of beauty can come out of the darkness once we look for the light.
It should be the woman's choice whether she should abort the child or not.
I'm sure we've all heard stories about women who raised their rapist's child to happy, successful adulthood without regretting their choice for a moment, but we shouldn't assume that all women would be willing or able to do the same. Women are not incubators. If a woman says that going through with a pregnancy caused by rape will cause her severe emotional, mental, or physical distress, then we should have the decency to respect her decision, even if we disagree with it. She's been through enough already, she doesn't deserve people telling her she'll go to hell, too.
Thanks for your input. I agree with you.
It''s here choice of course. But why should the child die because of a wrong place wrong time of conception? Both should be allowed to have time, to heal, live and go on with their lives, it can be done. Make lemonade out of lemons.
We do respect her decision, no one here does not respect her. We are just giving her other options to consider under these terrible times of duress.
Seriously, unless you are a woman who has just found out she is pregnant after being raped, I don't think you have any right to say one way or the other what someone else should or shouldn't do. After all, it's not exactly something you can relate to until you've lived it. And people often change their minds after they have had firsthand experience of certain situations.
Personally, from a logical standpoint, I understand the child is innocent and had nothing to do with the rape, but emotionally, I don't think I could cope with it, and believe me, I've been dealth a lot of crap in my life so I know fairly well what my limits are.
Indeed. I thnk it is totally up to the woman to decide.
You can cope with it, with help and assistance, and it is available to you. Give the child up for adoption, heal and go on with your life. It has been done, and you have no blood on your hands and no hole in your soul to worry about down the line. Mary did it.
I find it weird that you keep bringing up Mary as some sort of example to women who are pregnant as a result of rape. Whether you believe the Bible's version of Jesus's conception or not, we have no reason to think she was raped, by God or anyone else.
It was a theory of someone else. The truth is she was pregnant out of wedlock and in those times it meant her death too. They would stone her and her fetus to death. I have no reason to think she was raped either. All I know is that she was pregnant without a man, and Joseph came along and married her and raised a wonderful human being despite his anxiety about it all. That so called unwanted child went on to be a SAVIOR. Sure am glad now he wasn't aborted.
No one is TELLING HER TO DO NOTHING. All we ask is that she be available for more advice and counseling under the duress she is already in. A rape and an abortion both hurts the mother, in many ways. Allowing the child to live and be adopted allows the mother to walk away with no blood on her hands and a clear conscience and no hole in her soul.
I have come through that experience in my life, I lived it, it haunts me to this day but I am glad I allowed the child to live and gave it up. She has been violated once now she allows herself to be violated again by surgical instruments that will kill the beauty within her? Not for me.
I have never heard of a law that prohibits abortion after rape, and that is as it should be. I am totally pro-life, but even we can see that this situation merits a woman making her own decision. Many children of rape grow up to be perfectly normal and productive adults. But I don't think anyone should tell a woman she has no say in the matter. It is a personal choice, not because she doesn't want to be inconvenienced because she was careless and forgot her birth control pill, but because someone chose to harm her. Also, anyone who encourages abortion in this situation should be ashamed of themselves for preying on her a second time.
She is making a bad decision under severe duress and post traumatic syndrome. The baby lives within her womb, innocent to the crime that put it there. It is a living beautiful child being nurtured automatically by the womb of the rape victim. Killing the child doesn't punish the criminal, it makes a criminal of the mother, because she will eventually think differently later on down the road. Time is needed to heal and protect both from abortionists who are the only ones who GO TO THE BANK in more ways than one. Give the baby to ones who want it, you have created a diamond out of the rough.
You need to learn the terminology that is appropriate for the conversation. You're calling something a child or baby, when it's not actually either, until a specific stage of pregnancy.
Once the womb starts the manufacturing process, it's a baby. I do know the terminology and have done some extensive manufacturing of my own in the past, and I did learn what the difference was between an empty womb and a womb that is doing its natural normal job, and that is CREATION....
The womb created you, by consent or not you became a human being typing on a computer. Your mother worked hard to keep you safe for 9 months inside of her warm protective environment called a womb. That's why they call us WOMAN. Man who comes from the womb....
Many children do NOT grow up happily well-adjusted though. I know a couple of these, for one the mother is loving and doesn't blame her child but the child feels like a constant reminder and undeserving of love. Does the mother subconsciously feel this way and the child picked up on it? Has the child (an adult woman now) been raped herself and thinks that's how she would feel? Very complicated, horrible situation. But in all the ages of human history, this is so commonplace that if children knew that, they wouldn't need to feel so singled out. Men have been raping women since humans have been around. As I heard that one psychiatrist told someone (about a molested child), most children can learn to deal with this and go on to accept that it happened, it was horrible, it's over and go on to live happy lives.
Can't be a knee-jerk reaction to say the baby should be aborted because a woman will remember that's HER baby too. Many women feel that way anyway, that the baby is hers and the father only has what claim she allows. Probably why there are so many rules about men "owning" the children in the older days and other countries - women don't necessarily want to share. But if a woman can't stand it, can't give birth and give the baby up for adoption even, killing the baby before it has a chance to suffer may be all that can be done. A woman's state of mind has a great influence on a baby's development. And death isn't the worst thing that can happen to someone.
Death is the worst thing that can happen to anyone or anything. It takes away the opportunity of life, breath, sharing, loving, crying, giving birth, going to school, holding hands, etc. Life is much better than death, don't you think? If death was so wonderful more people would be doing it, lets allow death to come naturally, lets not encourage taking of life whether in abortion or war. Give life and live, creation is always better than destruction.
KUDOS TO YOU...No one says the mother does not have the right or the say.
It's a personal choice she should allowed to make on her own without anyone trying to sway her one way or the other. Whether she was raped or not. Definitely not an issue that any man should weigh in on. Abortion is actually none of their business.
Men have it easy I tell ya. Especially physically (childbirth, etc)
Yes, but they have it hard out there in the world when they leave us to raise the children while they earn the bread to feed us. It's a tough place out there for them and for unwed mothers or divorced mothers. There are good ones and bad ones, but either way "IT DON'T COME EASY" The Beatles
It is my business if she comes for more information to base her personal decision on. She will do as she wants, no one will force her mind anyway. She will come to her decision when ALL information has been given so she can make a better choice for herself and not the abortionists who will go to the bank and leave her with another deep wound in her body. Being violated twice don't make anyone happy. With counseling and support, she will go on with her life, and walk away from blood on her hands and a hole in her soul.
That is a decision for the woman and for her alone. Until recently, women who had been raped in Ireland had to come to the UK to have an abortion, because it was illegal there. I don't know if this has changed recently. As to the father, he would have no rights to the child. He would after all be a criminal, and would hopefully be behind bars.
And the UK went to the bank on their misery. The terrorist organizations scream KUDOS, death to the infidels, and the mother walks away with another wound and a hole in her soul. She don't even get to go to the bank, they get a paycheck for killing the child, the mother gets another violent act on her internal organs, and a beautiful child is sentenced to death because mother was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I hope the woman would consider a better alternative. Rather that having an abortion. If she does not want to keep the baby. There are so many loving people who would love to have a precious baby. And they don't care how it was conceived.
It should be that womans choice, her facts, her enviorment, her surroundings, her truths to herself that she alone knows.
IT IS NOT for us to decide for her.
No one can decide for her, all we can do is give her more information to make better decisions with for herself down the road of life.
Once she shares her pain, she is not alone. Many are here to help and support her decisions, whichever she chooses. But she is never alone if she chooses not to be. Seek and ye shall find....We love her and the baby anyway.
Are you offering a counselling service then?
I have to admit that given the mixed messages you've been sending on this thread, I would imagine that anyone coming to you for counselling would end up a lot more bewildered than they started. Which wouldn't exactly be ideal for a woman pregnant as a result of rape, who's probably already got enough on her plate to deal with.
She is already bewildered, that is why she will probably consider coming to me. I am not a counseling service or counselor, I am a victim of rape also and found a better way to handle the issue rather than traumatize my body further with a procedure that was making someone else richer and allowing me to take another chance with my life. There are risks in all medical treatments, and I chose not to take that risk, I have no blood on my hands and no hole in my soul because of it.
SHOULD she GET an abortion?
Should she BE ABLE TO get an abortion?
Okay, barring any religious aspects of this topic I will respond based on the experiences life has afforded me. I was raped as a virgin and I was terrified that I would become pregnant as a result. Thankfully I was not and I know that I would not have been able to commit to abortion as I feel that if I did not want the child, there is always adoption. Three years down the road my cousin suffered the same fate I did only years younger and she did become pregnant. She has kept her boy and her parents are helping her raise him but it is not without complication. She has changed irrevocably and even I cannot reach her. Her rapist is her next door neighbor and they are members of the same church. The church has slapped him on the wrist and not condoned his actions but they have scalded her as well they have been constantly fighting the courts to keep the father away but they are not in her favor. she has to deal with him and his grandparents all too frequently and she has not been able to properly heal under those circumstances.
I believe that it is not man's job to judge others and therefore it is not man's place to tell a woman that under those circumstances she cannot get an abortion if she so chooses. I am pro-choice despite knowing that I would never get one myself.
Chica, I am so sorry. My heart goes out to you. I hope that thngs turn out ok with your family. Thanks for your input, I agree with you. No one truly knows until they are in that situation.
It is a sad affair for the family I am sure, but the child lives and laughs with them and will go on in the world. She will heal eventually with help, maybe more help now. But she has no hole in her soul.
..how'd this get into a discussion around religious beliefs and abortion/not - the OP asked about dealing with rearing a child when the 'sperm vessel' (can't really call it Dad/father, now can i?) connection is as a result of rape...it's a tough question that was posed.
the toughness of this question is indeed too tough to be actually answered as it certainly is extraordinarily personal. My cousin has been trying to answer that question for five years with minimal success. She wants her son to know nothing of his father but the bastard that he is he has demanded access to his offspring. Thus the legal battle. I would cut my losses and run with my child to avoid him but every woman is different.
i saw your post - wow!...what a bad situation...no charges laid obviously...f*** a**** doesn't deserve anything...the FA obviously is too stoooppid or controlling to understand his actions, etc etc etc...guess i should just leave it at control...wow again!
The rape conception does not create a monster. It creates a beautiful human being that had no choice in being created from such an act of violence. It should be allowed to live, and the criminal should be punished, not the child.
First, take the religious argument out of this thread. Hijacking this thread for your own pursposes has no relevancy to the OP.
Now, back to the original question....
No one but the woman should have the right to make that decision. Only she knows whether she can emotionally and physically handle this aspect. No one has the right to force her into a decision or convince her of what they want.
This is not a topic of religious beliefs. It is a question of whether the woman can emotionally, mentally and physically heal from the rape (and there are many forms of rape) to lead a productive life.
Thats exactly what this post is about!
You can heal from a rape, many have come through that storm. It takes time, patience and support. Making rash decisions in a traumatic state of mind or times of deep stress is unfair to her. Yes, it is her decision, but let her make it with all the information available to her so she can walk away with clean hands and no hole in her soul.
Apparently something you know nothing about as you went to a different Sunday School class....
I know this question is diffcult...
How do you cope? Especially if you choose to keep it. Thats a lot of emotional baggage to have when you are raising a child by someone who hurt you. How do you let that child be involved with the dad and possibly have same situaton repeat itself. Most people are raped by people they know (family members, neighbors, teachers).
Those are questions that get answered after the baby arrives and you keep it. Many women have raised and loved unwanted babies from cruel husbands or mates, they didn't blame it on the child, they loved it and raised it. When both parents cannot participate in the life of the child, the child is not necessarily wasted life, it is still a precious gift that only the mother can give to the world, or take away if she chooses.
In this situation, the baby is an intruder in the home that is the womb. The most humane thing to do would be to put it in another home, but at this level of technology, it would be a bit impossible. Eviction is the only real solution.
I disagree, he is not the intruder, the rapist is. The womb is doing it's job, CREATING A HUMAN BEING.
I agree . it is not the child's fault, plus the baby is a part of her no matter what she is the mother and no child can intrude in a mothers home.
But the child did not intrude, the rapist did that. The child was automatically accepted by the womb and started to be manufactured or created in the protection of the mother's body. He may not have been invited but he was thrown in there not by his choice, but now that he is there, he is nurtured, cared for and kept warm so he can come out and meet his molther.
The child is either a living entity that needs to be nurtured, or it is still a part of the mother. You seem to be dancing in between these two facts and are blurring the water.
If it is part of the mother, then the "pro-choice" crowd is accurate in saying "it's my body" and an abortion is absolutely justified.
If it is a separate entity, then it is indeed intruding on the mother's property (her body) and should be evicted if possible if it is unwelcome.
If we use the latter, then we must abide by the fact that she should be allowed to get rid of the child (it's not really hers, and she shouldn't have to risk her life delivering a child that was raped into her) BUT she should do what she can to move the child into a new home that welcomes him.
Unfortunately we can't do this until about the ninth month.
No religion or law can deny the fact that you own your body, and if someone rapes you and leaves a baby (and you don't want it there), then this is almost exactly the same thing as saying that someone ripped open a woman's womb and threw in a hobo, and sewed her back up.
In the hobo example, the womb is still "providing a nurturing environment", but the hobo is still unwanted.
I do not disallow any woman to make the choice to abort, but I do not disallow my right to speak on behalf of the beautiful unborn child she is carrying within. It is now part of her, the best part ever, that had no choice in the conception process, only the opportunity to live in this world no matter how it got to that point. The water is clear here, she does have choices and should get all the information while not in a stressful mindset. And rape is a stressful mindset for a long time. Post traumatic stress syndrome they call it.
So you take the former of the two situations: that the child IS a part of her.
Thus, she has the right to cut off her toe as much as she has the right to cut off her baby.
Don't get me wrong, I don't LIKE abortions. I'd prefer to have more people around, but we're talking about rights here.
As I have stated before, SHE HAS THE RIGHT TO DO WHAT SHE WISHES WITH HER OWN BODY. I will not agree to taking that right away from her.
OK, I got ya.
Let me just elaborate why I was a bit confused.
You said: "I do not disallow any woman to make the choice to abort..."
And then said: "[the fetus] is now part of her"...
But then proceeded to say things like "unborn child she is carrying within", which would suggest that it is indeed a separate entity from the mother.
You also said things like "The water is clear here, she does have choices and should get all the information while not in a stressful mindset.", which suggests that she does NOT have the ability to make a decision after a rape (and thus, her right to an abortion would be invalid).
And to further confuse things, you made this sentence, which, by using logic, makes NO sense because you declare the fetus to be part of the woman, and then also give that fetus independent thought separate from the mother:
"It is now part of her, the best part ever, that had no choice in the conception process, only the opportunity to live in this world no matter how it got to that point."
So, that's why I had to make sure we were on the same page before I made my point.
I must insist, that I, myself, don't feel that the child is a part of the mother - I think it is a separate entity that is somewhat parasitic in nature.
Yes, yes, the word "parasite" is ugly, but think about it: the baby sucks up all the nutrients from the mother and causes her to be unable to do things she could do before (such as do sit-ups, and "look at her toes").
Thus, it is at best a guest in the womb, and unfortunately the mother has the choice/right to evict him/her (but she would have to try to save him).
It is, disgustingly, the child's fault for being unable to live outside the womb.
Yes, yes, yes, all of this is disgusting, but the subject of abortion is itself disgusting. You can't talk about Genocide without talking about the death involved.
There is a difference under the microscope of a parasite and a baby. So, calling it parasitic is incorrect. The mother on the other hand can be in manufacture mode of a human being while, washing the floors, paying the bills, coitus, caring for other family members, run for president, walk in a marathon, drive a car, etc. while nurturing this little person who accidentally got into her womb by accident and who is now making the best of it by trying to survive and get enough momentum to get into the world and start becoming a contributing human being and not a parasite.
I never mentioned Genocide, this is called Infanticide, sir.
I know you didn't mention Genocide, it was a metaphor.
The definition of parasitic has nothing to do with the size of the parasite.
If a hobo with a knife wound who needs rest or else he'll die enters your home, you are not obligated to take care of him.
The child is a part of her, and the best part at that.
That's kind of a damning view of women... particularly from a woman.
I'm with EmpressFelicity on this issue. If a woman is raped, she is under no obligation to have the child. There are methods so she does not have undergo this. A woman's body is her responsibility and she has the right to do with it as she wills. Each pregnancy should be planned and each child wanted. Margolyn, this is not medieval times but the 21st century!
Adoption is always an option for Mothers of a 'rape' child that just can't cope with bringing him or her up themselves. Plenty of people out there are desperate for a baby, but can't have one (myself included). These people would not ask questions about how the baby was conceived, they would just love it!
Yes Cindy, it's an "option", but so is abortion. Those who don't want to have an abortion can deliver full term. Those who do not want to have a choice.
Without abortion, there's no choice.
There is a choice, many choices instead of abortion. Better choices. Only the abortionists get richer, and the mother gets raped all over again by allowing the invasive procedure to happen again. Two wrongs don't make a right. Seek and Ye shall find....luvu
Your answer above is quite confusing.????
The woman was violated by the rape and now by the corporations who will make money, helping her kill her unborn child, that is being raped twice.
I said ADOPTION, not abortion. You need to read my post again!
Quote "Adoption is always an option for Mothers of a 'rape' child that just can't cope with bringing him or her up themselves. Plenty of people out there are desperate for a baby, but can't have one (myself included). These people would not ask questions about how the baby was conceived, they would just love it!"
Yes, I would feel swell carrying the spawn of my rapist for 9 months, going through the agony of childbirth, then giving the child away to some unsuspecting couple.
They might not care (at that point) how the child was conceived. But since the child contains its father's DNA it quite likely could turn out to be a violent woman hater just like dear old dad.
No thanks. I don't think that scenario is a win for anyone.
It's always fascinating (re infuriating) to me that extreme pro-lifers never take into consideration the mental health of the mother as if she isn't part of the equation, as if her life isn't beautiful and should be protected. As a survivor who suffered years of mental anguish, it would have been cruel and unusual punishment to have been forced to have the child of my rapist. That is just barbaric. People who don't consider the mental state of the mother are just as barbaric as they claim abortion doctors are.
I strongly concur with P J Deneen. I would NEVER have a child from a rapist. I would abort the child. This child is neither wanted nor conceived in love. In fact, the opposite occurred. No woman in her correct and thinking mind would conceive a child of rape. It is too barbaric to believe.
The only time women conceived and had children out of rape was extreme wartime when they had no access to hospitals. Even the poor souls in concentration camps had means to abort children conceived out of rape. Any fiend who dares suggest that a woman conceive a child out of rape is satanically cruel and evil.
These "children" are not wanted. If a woman is forced to keep such a child, she is neither doing herself nor her child any favors. In fact, the child would be done a disservice- think of Earth Kitt, who admitted that she was a product of rape. She maintained that she was totally unloved and horribly mistreated by her family. She further added that she was often scapegoated by her family for the most trivial reasons. Yes, there are dire consequences for children who are conceived of rape. Their life is inhuman and precarious to say the least.
Let the pro-lifers go to inferno! An intelligent woman will usually abort a child conceived of rape under normal circumstances. Women who have children of rape usually do not have access to hospitals and/or other facilities. These women are often in extreme war situations and cannot have abortions- however, the life of the child is often rife with horror!
I have a friend I went to school with her. Her mom was raped and she kept the baby. Guess who that baby was? My friend. If her mom had aborted Melissa she would have never been such a good friend to me.
A baby is a baby and regardless of who the father is, deserves a chance even if it's put up for adoption.
By the way, my friend's mom was 15
I wrote a Hub about how that is fallacious logic and does not argue a single thing. "If that person were aborted, then they wouldn't be here!" If you thank the mom for not getting an abortion, then thank the rapist as well for not using a condom. Doesn't quite make sense.
Totally agreed. What pro-lifers are using in this case is not fallacious logic but inane logic below the level of utter stupidity! Thank you, Steve!
Isn't that ironic of a man for this response. The rapist without the condom, was the criminal, criminals should not be thanked they should be punished. Hopefully the mother didn't get a disease, as rapists are somewhat diseased in many ways. Your defense of him is a low opinion in many ways reflecting on you. You both apparently have not been violated, if you were we would support you and help you to respect again.
Many terrorist religions want us to abort our babies, they want us to KILL OUR OWN, so they don't have to work harder doing it. And all for the virgins they think they will have in heaven?
INANE LOGIC IS JUST THAT, INANE.. HERE'S YOUR SIGN
STUPID IS AS STUPID DOES....FORREST GUMP WASN'T ABORTED AND LOOK WHAT HE TURNED OUT TO BE!!!
Again here is your sign STUPID IS AS STUPID DOES, Forrest Gump might have been dumb but look what he did in his life? Real character? I am sure.
Rapists should be punished not thanked for not using a condom. Again, idolizing the criminal is and should be another crime listed against women, not just the rape. But then again if you were a woman, maybe you would understand.
I am a woman. What I am agreeing with Steve on is this-that it is totally inane to thank the woman for choosing to keep the spawn of a rapist. That is totally barbaric! Most intelligent woman choose to abort the fetus or use other methods in order not to have the baby.
Rape is a horrific crime against women. I am a staunch feminist and I know this! What you are saying my dear is anti-woman, anti-feminist, in fact, anti-human. Women have the right to choose their reproductive destiny and to ascertain that their pregnancies are wanted and planned.
No woman who is raped should be forced to have a child that she did not want! However, this is what your inane pro-life stance strongly advocates!
I am not anti life, and no one including me has made any statements saying she should be forced to not have an abortion, look what the forcible rape has already done, it's put her in Post Traumatic Stress Mode maybe for the rest of her life, allowing the innocent child to live is also her choice. After all the child did not commit the crime, all he wants now is his mother to continue nurturing him within her body so he can get out and get on with his life in the world and become a productive, beautiful human being that he truly is. No one has the right to take the mother's right of abortion away from her, all we ask is that she get all of the information that is to her advantage and not the advantage of the doctors who will profit by her misery. If she keeps the child or gives it away, she walks away without blood on her hands and no hole in her soul.
Thanks, I need all the help I can get to help save more beautiful babies and the beautiful mothers who must have the courage to carry them through the storm. luvu
I'm sorry I usually stay clear of these threads as they amount to nothing but I really must say that comment was low and holds no compassion. I will leave but damn-it before I do I want to say to the woman who has lived this situation and is reading while probably having trouble breathing, you are not alone and every living person has the right to privately do whatever they want and don't feel a need to feed this barbaric uneducated thinking. What is your choice is yours, embrace it and have a chuckle at how sad it is people feel they must be right - I'm out a here, let the backlash commence
Keeping this beautiful child is far from being barbaric. Compassion allows life to thrive and live and go on with life. Barbarianism cuts, slices, kills, murders and destroys the beauty of life for not just the child. To be or not to be a barbarian is anyone's choice whether we like it or not. I choose to stay away from barbarians and all the pain they cause. I choose to have a more beautiful life then them.
Thank you Kimberly.....let us all look past any one person that believes they have all the answers....
The world, and the people upon it are vastly complicated and deserving of an open mind so that each of us can make up our own minds...not be dictated by those who believe they are the end answer to every possible question, situation, and person....find your own answers, my friends...they're out there.....look past anyone's singular biased perspective and find you own way...No one person or group or mindset has all the answers...never has...never will....
Good luck...and GodSpeed...
Technically, the victim can do whatever it is they want although it is a very hard decision. A decision that is completely up to the victim and a true test but one where their is no penalty if you decide that the child is a victim for the penalty of sin and that choice will rest on the person who committed the crime only. It is the multitude of sins that judge people and not the innocent who our forced by the sinner to accept their terms. Just as people have enough common sense to know what is right if there is a God he knows what is truly right between you and God. Where people throw away people every day for conveniance one can not be forced to embrace the horrific acts of others in compliance to things not chosen by them.
Rape and abortion are both criminal acts of violence. They both attack an innocent victim who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. The rapist should be punished, not the mother who has to have her body scourged a second time by a medical instrument or the innocent child who has to succumb to death because of the violated birth sack.
Abortion is currently legal. It is NOT a criminal act.
And women who choose to terminate their pregnancies -- for whatever reason -- do not have blood on their hands.
Is this kind of over the top, extremely slanted and vitriolic language what passes for "all the information" you offer to rape victims?
Nice of you to say a woman shouldn't be "judged twice."
Rape victims should not be judged at all.
To Mighty Mom: I totally concur with you. God bless you. You are a woman after my own heart. Women have the right to choose. Abortion is indeed legal and if a woman elect to have an abortion, she is completely in the right and have no need to be guilty. This is the 21st century and no woman should have an unwanted pregnancy. All children should be loved and wanted! Amen!
I never said judged twice, I said raped twice, once by the rapist the other by the corporate non profits who go to the bank on the blood of the innocent. No you shouldn't feel guilty they say, but after its over, down the road awhile, a hole is in your soul. Our enemies want us to kill our babies, they don't want competition under any circumstances. Our enemies tell us lies, we believe and then its too late. They took the baby and went to the bank to celebrate. Big bucks in abortions, very big bucks. If she kept the baby she would get financial assistance, a rental home, maybe some more education whether she keeps it or not. Our society makes more by allowing the child to live and to grow and participate in the world maybe with another parent. Terrorist faiths encourage the infidels to kill themselves not just with abortion but with alcohol, drugs etc. We are killing the best part of ourselves when we abort. AS I have always stated, the mother does have options including and not including abortion.
There you go again... I find this statement of yours quite disturbing. It sounds as though you're saying that a woman is "worth more" if she is pregnant than if she isn't. Don't like that. Don't like that one bit.
Maybe if you try asking forgiveness, EF, it will be given unto you.
Reason doesn't seem to penetrate.
This whole thread is baffling to me.
I mean, I don't like the idea of abortion. Just thinking about it gives me the heebie jeebies. And if I'd ever been in the unfortunate situation of being pregnant as a result of rape, I don't know what I'd have done (and I'm very, very glad I never had the chance to find out).
But one thing I do know is that I wouldn't judge any woman in this situation, whatever she decided to do. I certainly wouldn't go round implying that her only value to humanity was as an incubator.
She is valued more. History shows us women who could not bear children were not welcomed in the community. Communities depend on new births to continue on the cities and towns, to have children help raise the crops and herd the cattle. More children mean more production and of course new families they start, brings and continues the society. Without woman, there would be no cities or communities, without children there would be no future for anyone. But we all know the women who could not bear children had and did participate in the growth of the community, despite their barrenness. They became teachers or midwives or farmers. They too contributed despite their not having children.
How about them men, they are also important. Sex ratio at birth is 105. 105 sons for every 100 daughters born.
I don't think that women are viewed highly or valued more by society (not anymore) just bec she can bear children (before yes, and not in all culture). Women are precious same as men, ask any God and they will tell you that.
That is why abortion became legal in some countries bec. whether you like it or not, women perform it clandestinely and they do die bec. of it. It should be performed by a licensed medical practitioner.
Lets get real here. She is more valuable in that she carries a valuable cargo, a cargo that eventually could very well take care of her, change the world, be a millionaire or president. We are all VALUABLE, man, woman, child, animal, plant etc. Isn't it ironic that women all over the world are treated so special when they are pregnant, but when they are not pregnant in some cultures they are not valuable anymore. I am glad I live in the u.s.a.
She does have the blood of an innocent human she allowed to be taken from her insides. She will feel that pain over and over again in her life. She will cry and ask for forgiveness and she will receive it. She was led down the garden path by corporations who make a lot of money talking her into not keeping it. She gets nothing, absolutely nothing, after she leaves the abortion room. They go home with a paycheck, she goes home empty.
I can see you have issues with "the system."
Shouldn't doctors who assist rape victims be paid? How about the police who investigate the crime? Why do you begrudge a professional performing a legal service for a patient payment for the service?
Let's not forget the context here.
The woman in question has been RAPED.
These circumstances are beyond extenuating.
The only person who should be begging for forgiveness in this scenario is the scumbag who knocked her up in the first place.
Everybody has a job in life, that they choose. If they sell shoes, or abortions, they go to the bank. In history many soldiers killed babies because that was their job, Old Testament and Germany for example. But they too did not walk away with a clear conscience. When we kill anything, we do suffer some thing, but if we do not feel that something, then we are in darkness. These are the criminals, not the babies or the mother. She walks away with blood on her hands and doesn't realize due to the stress, that it is blood from her own baby. Nothing wrong with making a living, but if you choose to get paid for killing babies or killing puppies, it takes a cold cold person to do these jobs, because I guess they have a way of coping and dismissing it "as its their job".
wrong, but you know that already, attention can be collected in a much nicer way. example; I agree with nothing you say-nothing at all, but that does not make me right and your quest I think is working in your mind having nothing to do with rape or abortion, well your 2 followers in 8 months speaks volumes how you are accepted on some level, I am going to follow you not from pity or an attack but to show you even if you feel a certain way, maybe sometimes we can stop, take a breath and listen, not hear but really listen to someone else like how you are being heard. best of luck to you
That has got to be the most creative reason I've ever read for following someone. Only you, K-woman!
motives wrong but meant to make a point, and maybe it will again fall to deaf ears but I can''t loose anything and bottom line is was the best shot i could think of cause I'll be banned if I unleash :
Of course I already knew Kimberly represented the future of all writing, caring, and the most beautiful perspective what to do, as in this case...that's part of why I care so deeply about you...and ultimately, Kimberly, I'll make sure you've got the fertile ground to allow those ideas and dreams to come true
There are those who see life as a test and who also seek a higher purpose but such decisions are not determined by the judgements of those with agendas. I have heard stories of those who never regretted raising a child not of their choosing but not all of us are capable of doing so. My point is simple no victim is guilty by doing or not doing so or is required to make such an unselfish act. The rules of being unmarried or the result of an unlawful act does not requires my opinion on the issue. In some cases we are talking about young girls and before modern medicine, death was a very real thing. The entire issue in the end still belongs to the person who committed this crime regardless of the decision made by that persons victim. Such a person will be at the mercy of his victim in the end.
I didn't respond to this because of a celebrity contest. I am speaking from a Great Grandmother's perspective and empathy for these women.
The alternative is we turn back to the bad old days with backyard abortions. Where women died or were permanently maimed by rogue operators...
Don't get an abortion, keep the baby then nobody makes a dime except the mother and the baby when the communities help her have it and raise it or give it away, put the abortionists out of business of killing babies, let them get real jobs helping humanity rather than destroying it. Like I said before, there are terrorists out there praying that we kill our babies so they don't have to, they help fund these things secretly too. They don't have to send armies to kill us, all they gotta do is hire salesman for abortion selling and pay the doctors very well for performing the act. If she keeps or gives it away, she has empowerment over the rapist, not the rapist having empowerment over her. He cannot destroy anyone with rape, but he can when she is talked into it, he hurts two people. The child should not die because he was wrongfully conceived, only the rapist should be punished by our laws.
If abortion were really such a big money business it would be thriving in the privatized world. Planned Parenthood is not listed on the Fortune 100 last time I checked.
You seem to truly be more concerned with anyone "making a dime" off the abortion than anything else.
Does it also bother you the amount of money Big Pharma makes on birth control pills?
Are they part of this vast conspiracy of terrorists?
How about the company that makes Trojans?
Is it ok if they make money off stopping pregnancies?
I don't care about those industries, I only care about the baby and mother. A not for profit does not have to subscribe to Forbes. Killers for Hire is not a well known career name, its usually disguised as another name. Pharmacy is another subject I will not answer here on this forum but it is also a concern of mine. If everyone knew how much the abortionists are making, you would be concerned too. If the mother keeps the child or adopts it, that is one more human being that will contribute to societies needs. An abortion takes away the people we need to help grow better communities and families. Abortion stops communities from growing naturally.
Many things stop communities from growing naturally.
On a much bigger scale than one rape victim's decision not to extend her torment 9 more months.
"You breed 'em, we feed 'em (and nurture them and educate them and keep them safe)" is a lovely fantasy of community responsibility.
Outlawing abortions does nothing to solve the larger issues.
Is that what pregnancy is to you? Torment? Raped or not she will carry a child the way we all do, only she will always have the torment of the violent act against her and not the beautiful child she carries within. She does not have to go on welfare to keep the child, she can give it up in adoption, and allow someone who wants the child and will "feed" them after she "breeds em". When that child is schooled and raised to adulthood, it then starts to contribute to the community, whether it be a garbage man or a junk collector or a teacher etc. That is what life is all about, working, living helping others, having a family etc.
Actually, Margolyn, I thought of you just this morning. I had a commenter on my rape hub who is facing this very issue. She was raped and is now two months pregnant and completely devastated. Tormented would be an accurate word to describe her, I think.
I must say your comment above about the product of rape growing up and then HIRING A LAWYER to go find their rapist father struck me as rather hypocritical. Here you rail against the doctors getting 'rich' off performing pregnancy terminations. Yet lawyers making money off rape is aok in your book.
I continue to be fascinated (in a rubbernecking a car wreck kind of way) by your logic and values, madam.
Amen to you, Mighty Mom. Finally, an intelligent woman after my own heart. I totally concur with you on this matter. Madolyn seriously has some issues and need a good feminist psychotherapist to straighten her out and help face the magnitude of this issue. She is totally living in a totally stratospheric world, not the real word. She needs to take courses in logic because she is sorely missing a lot!
I am of an age of experience and wisdom of which you have not attained yet. I don't say I am right, I say I have the right. My name is Margolyn not Madolyn, its such a shame you are of the mindset of another follower who does not read all of the print before or after a post. Making assumptions, accusing and trying to demean others on this site is childish and has to be forgiven. I was a victim also, so I speak from experience, but then again you didn't read that part either.
I am an experienced and educated woman. It seems far more experienced and educated than you will EVER be in two lifetimes. At least I have a mind of my own regarding this matter while you are regurgitating what you have been taught by authorities.
I am thoroughly educated and well versed in the matters of contraceptive technologies. I am a staunch prochoice feminist. I find your "ideas" to be atavistic and reactionary. Your "ideas" of women is very medieval-she should be passive and if she is raped, God forbid, and become pregnant- she should just quietly accept it.
I say no way. I will not repeat my stance, Margolyn, regarding the subject for you know where I and other intelligent and educated women stand on the subject. Margolyn, let us be realistic here. Be a woman, not a little girl regurgitating what she has been taught by parents and religious authorities. Analyze what you have been taught and use your own judgement. I have to my betterment!
Finding the rapist father issue was a response to someone who asked "what if the child of the rapist wants to find his father?" THATS ALL IT WAS. A RESPONSE TO A QUESTION. My answer was honest, a lawyer would have to be involved in that search. If you would have read the question before my post you would have seen that. But apparently again, you wish to argue or disagree and call names rubberneck?....grow up girl and act like an adult. Don't accuse or abuse someone because you don't have time to follow the issues.
It should be totally the decision of the Mother. Rape is a terrible thing, but if the mother wants to have the baby, then she should be able to. The rape wasn't the babies fault. Of course I'd also more than understand it if she chose not to keep the baby though.
I totally concur with cagsil and smzclark. Finally, someone who uses logic. If a woman is forced to have a child by a rapist, she is NEVER going to love that child. In fact, the opposite occurs, Magolyn. That's right. Such children are abused-emotionally and/or physically. Women who are raped should NEVER have that child- it should be aborted for her emotional and psychological wellbeing. No child, if necessary should be a child of rape. Margolyn, get the picture, now! I hope so!
That has got to be the oddest worldview I've read ever.
Is there some kind of cause and effect here?
In other words, if the children grow up and do X,Y and Z as you've outlined, are they insulated from becoming terrorists?
What if the child grows up and doesn't have a family?
Or doesn't go to college?
What if the "scripture" the child chooses to embrace is one of atheism or capitalism with no spiritual component?
But the most puzzling aspect to all of your comments is the undercurrent of terrorism.
It's like Pollyanna meets Alex Jones.
The more I read the less I understand.
The good thing about it is that the child will go on living and making the choices as he or she sees fit. Think about it, really think about it, after the child lives it will participate and contribute to the communities, if its dead or aborted, it contributes nothing to nobody except the abortionists who go to the bank. No one else really wins.
You are sounding like a broken record and now you're starting to skip.
Best of luck talking to yourself.
You're right I've got healing to do.
Healing from listening to your warped views.
To Mighty Mom: Remember the definition of insanity. Yep, doing and/or saying the same thing repetively and expecting the same results. Well, Madolyn, fits this definition to a "T". We use logic on her-oh I forgot, logic does not work with her.
Actually, I think that definition is when someone does the same thing repetitively but expects different results.
Either way, your reference of a pro-life hubber as being insane is uncalled-for rudeness and an attempt to deny the rights of free speech to someone.
You were very sick before you started reading my warped views, your anger shows, your pain is apparent and real. Again you need more time to heal, don't blame me for your attitude, you can change you attitude, but it won't change while you demean others because of your hatred and misunderstandings. You are in my prayers.
when the child becomes an adult, they will have the right to know who their real parents are...by law...what then?!
I was reading some statistical information and it shows that there are an average of five to ten pregnancies which occurred as a result of forcible rape per state, per year. To say the least the underlying issue is weather or not abortion should be more accessible to the other 1.5 million people in the United States who every year decide to do this based on nothing more than inconvenience.
Look at all the accidental pregnancies that are also aborted. There was a statistic out there a while ago about how most of us were accidental pregnancies. I know I was and mother told me "ALL OF US 7 KIDS WERE"
YUP in those days Dad just looked at Mother and it happened, well that's what she told me when I was a little kid and didn't know any better.
Madolyn, I have quite a few choice words for you. However, I will not say them or I would be completed banned from this beautiful and wonderful HubPages community. Let me not digress here. You are totally stratopheric in your response. A woman who is raped SHOULD NEVER have to carry the spawn of this abonimably despicable act to full term. Your premise regarding this issue is beyond demonic- it is abysmally satanic in the least.
If you were humane as you said you were, you will avidly encourage this poor woman to obtain an abortion. A pregnancy should be wanted, not unwanted. Women are not passive incubators- they have a right to enjoy and welcome their pregnancies. There is a place for you and it will be desolate! You are indeed a horrible person! You have serious issues which an excellent feminist psychotherapist could immediate remedy! Oh no, not in your case!
I feel your frustration and concur 100%.
But she's not worth getting yourself banned over.
It's not too late to edit out "you're a horrible person"
(Misguided, yes. Horrible, too personal, I fear.)
Color within the TOS lines for all our sakes!
Back atchya gmwilliams.
There's something about this forum that leaves me feeling slimed, maligned and flat out VIOLATED as a woman, a mother, and a rape victim.
Your attitude astounds me! I have never posted anywhere that she should have an abortion! I am a Great Grandmother, who has seen and heard much more than I care to describe here. I am not misguided by anything. I am guided by my heartfelt feelings for women who have experienced this atrocity. Been there done that and don't regret giving the child a chance to live without me, no hole in my soul EVER!
I NEVER SAID A WOMAN HAD NO RIGHTS OVER HER BODY! If she wishes to destroy the person inside of her because half of it belongs to the rapist, that is her decision. Your choice words to me makes me realize that you apparently are much too young to even be discussing an issue such as this. Choice words do not and will never be accepted in an adult conversation. Maybe this is the wrong site for you after all.
Thanks Mom for not getting an abortion (or pinching my head off as you threatened a few times)
Oh this was good, a poster I think - Everybody who was in favor of slavery was free. Everybody who supports abortion is alive. Tyranny works like that.
I am so alive and wish all the babies that were aborted could come back right now and start over and be alive as we.
I am alive and against abortion, is that considered tyranny also? And abortion makes you a slave to guilt, who needs that on your head the rest of your life?
I'm pretty sure a victim of rape would be able to deal with any guilt that might creep in. I think she would be seeing doctors and psychiatrists for help with all of it. Do you think the pregnant rape victim should feel guilty for choosing abortion?
Also on a side note I wonder how many religious people would judge the young unwed pregnant woman without knowing the whole scenario.
In the beginning I don't think she would be thinking clearly. No one should or should not feel guilty when they make a choice that they believe in. It's her choice and its her conscience that she is responsible for. It's sad though to realize that her baby is the best part of her and that part will be destroyed. It's not the fault of the child he was conceived at a bad time, yet he is the one who will lose his life.
You know, that's your problem. You assume things you have no clue about. Each person handles what happens to them different than other people. Assuming she wouldn't be thinking clearly is just foolishness.
Yet, the religious love to make people feel guilty.
Yes it is, which means anyone other than her should butt out.
The best part of her? Get real. Her living life how she chooses is the best part of her.
In order for it to become a "child" it needs to be born. Again, you use terminology to distort context.
The best part of her? What does that mean? That she was made better because of a rape? That's a sad way to look at women. I agree with Cagsil that it's not a child until it's born. I find the rational that it's not the fault of the fetus for being conceived at a bad time to be ridiculous. Sorry rape victim for your bad time but go be pregnant for 9 months and then have to go through the ordeal of either keeping or giving up the baby. I agree that it's the woman's choice and if she decides to go through with that then she should. I don't understand anyone recommending it though.
So what rationale do you want to give that you don't consider ridiculous for conceiving a child during rape?
You mean after the conception during the rape? I think the rationale for not aborting the fetus should be based on factors that support the girl carrying it to full term. Is she mentally stable to have a child? Is she going to be able to handle raising it? How difficult will it be to give it up for adoption? Is she going to handle talking about her situation to people after she starts showing? Her life was pretty drastically interrupted by this crime. She can choose to deal with all of those things and more but to say she should deal with all of that because the embryo/fetus growing in her isn't to blame and should'nt be punished is just so weird to me.
I stand by my initial question. Because it shows there is no rationale for conceiving a child during rape. It's something that happened. No one is to be blamed here except the rapist. You do punish the rapist. That's why I'm saying that you shouldn't punish the unborn child for its circumstances. I do think that the unborn child if you give it a chance to be born, and raise it with the love and care due any child, it would be a redeeming act from a terrible circumstance. You are coming at it from the point of view that any issue from that vile act should not be tolerated by the violated woman. You are focused on the violation. I understand that. I am just proposing a different viewpoint. One that I don't consider weird but may be harder for a woman to do.
I guess what I mean is that saying that it's not the baby's fault and therefore should not be aborted is weird to me. I agree we are looking at it from different perspectives and that's ok. I don't want to sound like I think my perspective is the only right one. I just feel strongly about the subject matter from the rape perspective because it hits close to home. I am not Christian but I can see how that would change the way some will feel about abortion. I just wouldn't want people to think the girl should feel guilty or look at her badly because she chose abortion.
How do you know?
Never having had an abortion myself (thank God), I can't speak for all the women out there who have had one. But I suspect the spectrum of after-effects ranges from permanent, all-encompassing guilt, through mild regret, all the way to total relief with nary a guilt feeling in sight. I should think it depends very much on the individual woman and her particular circumstances. That's what I think is being lost in this thread - the fact that it is dependent on the individual, which is why I for one would be loath to prescribe a one size fits all approach to dealing with a situation like post-rape abortion.
I would hope that the mother would not get an abortion. The baby is not at fault as to how he or she was conceived. But it is the mother's decision whether to abort or to keep it or put it up for adoption. I do want that mother to get a lot of counseling and support because it may be a traumatic experience and any decision is difficult.
A relationship with the father? It depends. My first assumption when I hear or read rape, is that it was a violent act against a woman by a man. But if the situation is something like two adults who had a relationship together got drunk together and the man raped the woman because he's a jerk and she was unconscious, I'm kind of leaning towards letting the father have some say. Of course nowadays, a woman can rape a man under those circumstances so I don't know if he'd get any say.
It's the mother's decision, its her life and hopefully she will keep or give the child to someone who will love and nurture it. I believe abortion hurts a woman in many ways down the road. You can't kick the can down the road forever, cause its going to stop right back at your feet again.
Well I agree with you about abortion having a permanent effect on a woman in ways maybe she can't foresee. Nowadays, though I do think women don't think hard about having an abortion. The reason I say this is because women who go to health centers, like Planned Parenthood, think of abortion as some form of birth control. I only have anecdotal evidence because I knew a couple of people who work there. It's a very clinical approach. But I guess it has to be. If you were to approach the unborn baby as life with all its full potential, it would be much harder to kill. Bringing up that baby and doing right by it would be a form of redemption. But if you just consider it as a bunch of cells, it's far easier to go through with the abortion.
Planned parenthood should know better. But they get paid well for killing these babies, don't they? I am not hearing good things about them.
I've always thought it was ironic that they call it Planned Parenthood but offer abortion services. But they are a full service health center and they are a resource for the low income population. As with most non-profit organizations, their funding comes from a mix of public and private sources.
Poor people mean more abortions to them. If they were really Planned Parenthood they would offer tubal ligations to prevent further pregnancies. But noooooooooooooooo they will for a price give you an abortion without any problem. It don't make it right. Don't trust them anymore, they used to be helpful in the 60's but since they have gotten bigger, don't feel good about them anymore.
There's not a lot of women that want tubal ligations. I just find the whole thing creepy. Margaret Sanger was such a racist and wanted to sterilize minorities. In a way, she got what she wanted because a lot of minorities do go to Planned Parenthood for abortions. It's as if the eugenics movement succeeded.
You are correct in that thinking. I used to admire her, until I found out what she was really up to. Yup, they think cause your poor you should have an abortion, how wrong they really are. They really want to exterminate a race, its no different now than it was then. Extermination by abortion or gas chamber, its all the same. Someone is going to the bank. The people who sell the gas, the doctors who do it, the great buildings that are built on the dead babies from abortions. Big business working at its best,
To Cassie Smith and Margolyn: Planned Parenthood is for the purpose of teaching women and people You two are clearly have an unenlightened view of contraception and family planning. Margaret Sanger was a nurse who grew up in an unplanned large family. She knew what life in an unplanned large family was and how it affected the mother.
Ms. Sanger further worked in poor neighborhoods where women were overwhelmed by their numerous, unwanted pregnancies. They were tired and overwhelmed and so were their husbands. She believe that there was a iife in marriage being prey to unwanted pregnancies and constant childbearing. She believe that contraceptive education should be instituted. for the betterment of society.
In instituting her plan, she came up against people like you two, Cassie and Margolyn, who believe that women should just passively accept being pregnant whether they liked it or not. After an uphill battle with the authorities, particular religious ones, she succeed in relaying contraceptive education to women which made their lives and their children's lives much easier.
To Cassie, there is nothing wrong with women taking active charge of their bodies. If they are finished having children, I view nothing wrong with undergoing sterilization. That is smart and indefinitely better than to use inpermanent birth control and maybe becoming accidently pregnant. Cassie, please wake up. I am a Black woman who staunchly believe in the right of prochoice and contraceptive. Yes, poor women should be taught birth control technologies because they are LEAST likely to use it. We middle class women have been using birth control technologies for years.
Very poor women who have lots of children are selfish in the least. First of all, they can least provide for their brood of children and their children suffer for it. These are the children who end up to be juvenile delinquents, gang members, and imprisoned because they had little socioeconomic opportunities to do better. Yes, poor women should be taught all aspects of contraception including sterlization. Margolyn, get real- children should be planned, not "accidents". You are totally pathetic. No one is listening to you. Please become educated and read some books regarding the benefits of contraception and the small family. I know this was taught in school. Where were you that day? ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ, I guess!
Yes, I am avidly prochoice but I believe in abortions only in certain circumstances. No prochoice person believes in abortion as birth control. Yes, abortion is necessary but there are ways to prevent conception. Leave Margaret Sanger alone- she is a pioneer! Cassie and Margolyn, you have been thoroughly brainwashed!
Unplanned children is most of the population. If you can't feed them then give them up for adoption, someone else will. As I have stated before WE HAVE NEVER TOLD THESE WOMEN THEY CANNOT GET AN ABORTION!! NEVER! We only encourage other choices, and yes children should be planned but I guess not all plans work out that way other wise there wouldn't be so many babies being born and raised and loved. Killing to control the population is not the way to go.
You have something to back up this statement?
No need when abortion is legal.
No, you just tell them how BAD they are as a person.
Abortion is a choice. So move on.
It's not killing, which is something you don't seem to grasp. I know your response will be, but then again, it doesn't matter. No one has the right to tell a woman what to do with her body and they also don't reserve the right to degrade a woman when they make the choice to use the available options.
If its not killing then why doesn't the baby survive the abortion?
What baby? Use the right terminology would you. A baby is something that is actually born.
Its a baby, you didn't answer the question. Why doesn't the baby survive the abortion if its not killing?
It's not a baby. The organism doesn't survive an abortion because it's not suppose to survive. If you don't understand what an abortion is then I suggest you look up it's definition.
On a side note- you might want to pull out the medical journal and learn the terminology of the different stages of pregnancy. Until then....you spout nothing more than distortion and misinformation from the Christian Pro-Lifers.
Its a baby, abortion is killing a baby, and you cannot answer the simplest of questions.
Actually, ignorance is never justified.
Abortion does in fact kill a human organism, but it's NOT a baby. Go learn something.
But you said it wasn't killing. Make up your mind.
I said it's killing a human organism. Not a baby. It's technically not killing because abortions are LEGAL. Duh!
I realize the slowness of some members....but do try to pay attention.
Killing isn't killing when its legal? So, what? Killing isn't killing? Durrrrrh.
Okay, let me use a different word then. Abortion destroys and eliminates an organism. It isn't killing.
Is that better for your simple comprehension.
To Cagsil: Try as you might with your profound intelligence as I have. As my late father said, " Illogical people CAN never learn from LOGICAL people." Some people are just plain obtuse, so let us move on. If a person continues to be illogical, there is no sense in convincing them. Furthermore, it is a BIG waste of time. I have tried repeatedly but to NO AVAIL!
I have never posted this. You are making an assumption.
I don't think there is anything wrong with women taking active charge of their bodies. I didn't post anythings saying women shouldn't.
You should read up on Margaret Sanger. She was a member of the American Eugenics Society. She basically wanted to get rid of anyone she didn't consider of "good quality gene pool" and who couldn't provide for their own children, etc. She sure is a pioneer but that by itself shouldn't protect her from criticism and I will criticize any organization any one that thinks they should sterilize people because they don't fit a certain mold.
By the way, we were talking about rape and abortion. I believe you are hijacking this thread, it's not about Planned Parenthood, and you're making a lot of wrong assumptions.
I know this forum is pertaining to rape and abortion. I will stand by what I have previously said. A woman who is raped and gets pregnant should have an abortion. This poor soul was violated by an act of violence against her will. Why should she keep the aftereffects of the rape. To me, this is cruel beyond words. Children should be conceived in want and by love. Do you know that children who are unwanted are more likely to abused and illtreated than children who are wanted. No woman should endure an unwanted pregnancy for it is psychological abuse to the extreme.
A woman who is raped and gets pregnant SHOULD have an abortion.
More militant pro-abortion propaganda. SHOULD get an abortion?
So much for her body her choice.
So it is about what you decide should happen, not the decision of the woman who is raped.
And if they are not, just kill the children off? And you don't think this is cruel. Not all children are conceived in want and by love, it happens even without rape.
Again, I did not say they should.
this is such a hot topic. people have such strong feelings about it that it is impossible to discuss this issue with some.
i cannot answer for someone who is faced with this decision. it would and require much soul searching.
my question is: what if she has the baby and harbors great resentment toward it even though it is not the baby's fault that she was raped? the baby could be born into a kind of hell instead of a loving caring home.
terminating a life is a daunting experiemce ....i cannot make that judgment call for another...
Women will have another choice, they can deal with those feelings with support and help or give the baby up for adoption. It's a challenge only she can respond to. Wanted babies are born into bad situations also, no one knows, we just hope that she will seek help with the issues and learn to love the innocent child she gave life to.
Well, as for me never mind the father, just raise the child well, love him/her as much as you can. Never to let her/him feel that he/she is a product of a rape and teach him/her a good manner and never let him know exactly about his/her father if possible until the proper time that he/she need to know then probably it's the time to tell him/her the truth. And most of all teach him/her well to be a better person.
Nah I don't beleive in abortion....
I regret aborting my kids.
If you put a stop to legal abortion it would go underground as it was here in Australia in the 1950s & 1960's. Back yard Abortions were rife with rogue operators causing the deaths or permanent damage of women
Or maybe it would force some people to be more responsible with their bodies.
Unfortunatly that theory has already been tested and failed...
Did prohibition take care of the alcohol problem? Does not providing condoms result in more teens abstaining from sex? Those are just a couple.
Abortion was prohibited here until the early 1970's
As i explained in earlier posts here in Australia
There was crime and corruption police were being paid off. Look up Abortion in Victoria for instance including Dr Bertram Wainer..
Do you have any proof that people would not act more responsible if abortion were not an option? We are 40 years removed from the early 70's, isn't it possible people have learned from the mistakes from that degenerate generation?
Women will seek an abortion if they want to if it illegal they will seek illegal methods which includes backyard abortions. No i don't believe they are any wiser now than then when it comes to this topic
That settles it then, you don't believe that women are any smarter than they were 40 years ago. Quite the feminist supporter ain't ya?
But going back to the topic of rape, the woman could be the most responsible person in the world. Her choice to get pregnant when she wants to was taken away from her.
I hope Australia has changed that. But during this time how many babies were concieved? how many aborted? How many mothers died in trying to get a backyard abortion? I also agree, be more responsible with your body, there is contraception and if you choose not to use it, well its your body and your problem. It doesn't make sense to kill the baby cause you forgot to take your birth control pill.
Yes they stopped it by making it legal and available...
Margolyn, abortion is legal for a reason. Yes, there are contraceptives and most people are responsible and diligent in their use of them. Sometimes, accidental pregnancies occur and it is the choice of the woman to have an abortion if need be. No woman should continue her pregnancy against her will. Abortion should continuously be legal and safe. Remember the motto: A woman's body, a woman's choice.
Then why can't she ingest heroin into her body?
She has the choice, no one is taking that away from her. We are only offering alternatives and other choices. Thats all...
There are no other choices to a pro-abortion type. Pro-choice to them is only one choice, everything else is tyranny against women.
And I always learn something when you espouse your brilliance.
This is what you said
It's not killing
Nothing about a baby, nothing about being legal, just this.
It's not killing
Gentlemen please, we are adults here can't we act like it?
It is entirely a matter for the woman involved. As for the father, he has no rights in the matter. He is a criminal and should be in prison.
I hate to tell you this but if he wanted he does have rights. Here in the US if he wanted the baby after he raped her, he could very well get the child if the mother refuses. It has happened. It's us to the judge I guess. No one here is taking the right of decision from the mother, she has the right to do what is right for her.
I would say no, the baby did not rape her and should not be put to death for the act.
But I would leave an allowence for such a thing in the abortion laws.
This is one girl's story about rape, abortion and adoption in America. This is my story and it was told in a made for TV movie several years ago, but not by me-- I am telling my story here for educational purposes because after reading the insane statements I am reading here by people who have never been raped, beaten, had an abortion or fostered or adopted a child, I know I can teach you all something if you are brave enough to seek the truth. I promise you won't be bored and you can all thank Barry for bringing me to this hub!
I came in search of Barry Rutherford who had posted on Frog Prince's blog pushing "socialized medicine" and he never came back---in spite of the many comments posted back to him==I see now Barry that you have always lived with socialized medicine and that is what you know---But while I am here I have a few words for the people who are talking about abortion and handing out random opinions, but I don't see anyone here who is speaking from experience as I can---Repair Guy, I do not believe MEN should ever have a say on this subject on any level and the things you are saying here are the reason why. If you are not capable of getting pregnant then your opinion should be muted and should never,ever count.
Today lots of young girls, predominately young black and hispanic girls in America use abortion as a form of birth control in spite of the fact that birth control is free in our country at Planned Parenthood---American moms are the worst at having "the talk" with their daughters that might prevent teen pregnancy in our country and far too many of these women were teen moms themselves who lose all credibility on the subject from the get. America has a much higher rate of unwanted teen pregnancies than any other industrialized nation. When I say "unwanted" I speak from a place of knowing. For the past 4 decades I have done volunteer work with at risk kids in 40 cities and 12 states across the country and in every hood or barrio I was in "Minorities Procreate" is written like a mantra by black and hispanic gangbangers on graffitti walls nationwide, who are told by their gang leaders to "spread their seed" all over their hood in an effort to overpopulate the nation with black and hispanic babies. You can turn on Maury Povich any day of the week and see teen-aged girls who may have 20-25 possibilities for their baby daddies. They are broke and have never worked and their parents are broke and have never worked, but our government will give them $700-$800 per month in TANF money and another $200-$300 per month in food stamps and they are eligible for up to 445 more family and children's services because of having that one child and because of the "socializing" of America!
When teens see how lucrative socialism is in our country and that you can get it even if you are here illegally and get more with every unwanted kid they conceive, this becomes their life just like it was the life of their mommas. They do not want these children and do not provide for or raise these kids with any hope for having a better life than they or their mommas had and there are no dads in the lives of any of these kids and do I think a child should be aborted rather than having a life like I just described---ABSOLUTELY!!!
I was violently raped 4 decades ago on the campus of OU in Oklahoma by a 360lb. 6'7" black football player who went on to play 15 years of pro-ball. I was a 120lb. 5'7" white girl and was a virgin at the time. I was at a party that had spilled out into the parking lot of a new condo site in Norman and one moment I was at the party with my friends and the next moment this rapist had picked me up like a sack of flour and taken me to a Lincoln Town Car,which was provided by the OU footbal team,in the back of the complex. He drove me out to the country where he raped and sodomized me for six to eight hours before he kicked me out in the rain and drove away. I was miles from town and had no idea where I was and walked all night and half the next day to get back to my friends place. No one was there---they were all out looking for me. I was bruised from head-to-toe, beat up, bleeding, cramping and unable to speak. I got into my car and drove back to OSU where I attended college and did not speak to anyone for two more weeks. Before this happened I was a little social butterfly and the life of every party and I literally could not speak! My friends were freaking out and no one could understand where I went and frankly I don't know where I went either. I just could not form words or get a single thought out!! Then one night I told my "gay" college roommate what had happened and she freaked!! Over the next few days she and I told my other friends all of whom, freaked. Rape was not as rampant in the 70's as it is today. I had never heard the word "rape" and had certainly not known anyone it had happened to.
Today one in three women and one in twelve men will be raped in America by the likes of Larry Sandusky or their local Catholic Priests and the rapists usually do less than two-three years in prison and are back on the streets to do it some more. Eventually I was convinced by my girl friends in college to tell some of my guy friends from my hometown who were on the OSU football team to tell their coach. I went with these guys who I had known all my life and waited outside the OSU coaches office while they told him what had happened to me and who had done it!! Everyone knew my rapist--he was a famous football jock who was headed for the NFL and my intention was that he went to prison first and that he never would steal a young girl's virginity in that way again!! There were no rape kits back then, but even a doctor would have known my virginity had been taken by a rapist.
Boy, was I in for a surprise---my friends came out all long faced and scooped me up and headed out of the building---the plan was that these guys would go in to tell the coach and then I would go in while the coach called the police. My friends got me outside and then they couldn't speak--I kept saying "what"--"what's wrong?" These guys were too angry to speak and when they finally did, I could not believe my ears. Although rape was not common back then, the football coaches knew the law and how it worked at the time. The coach told my friends that if 10 guys were willing to go to court and "say" they had "been with me" ie. "had sex with me" that I was "incapable" of being raped under Oklahoma law! No problem, right, I was a virgin when he raped me. The coach told my friends that because my rapist was such a famous player on the number one team in the Big 8 and in the nation that the team would find 10 guys who would be willing to "say" they had had sex with me in a court of law and that my name would be slandered across two campuses and in national news and that nothing would likely ever happen to my rapist. Jaime Gertz was in my exact same story many years later in a made for TV movie that was set in Oklahoma and involved both these schools.
This happened in March of 1972 and by May when it was time for me to go home for the summer I knew my rapist had impregnated me. I was a virgin pregnant with a black man's baby and needed to go tell my way too Southern mom and dad. I had all the symptoms of pregnancy and was vomiting up everything I ate and losing weight daily and was living in horror at the thought of having to tell my mom. For two decades my mom had told me that if I ever got pregnant that she would take me to a deserted island in the middle of the ocean and drop me off and because I knew she meant it that was my "birth control". Good girls didn't get pregnant back then and by all accounts, I was a good girl. Besides that, I had decided at 15 never to have kids.I had read in the Farmers Almanac that man was beginning to overpopulate the planet to such an extent that we eventually would not be able to grow enough food to feed everyone. At that time children were starving all over the world already and I had been bringing home other peoples kids since I had started first grade, so I already knew lots of people were making babies that they did not want and could not afford.
I was a tomboy who had no motherly instincts whatsoever and I knew if I needed a kid that there would always be lots of them out there who were unwanted and uncared for. To date I have taken in more than one hundred of other people's kids nationwide and have seen first hand what having unwanted kids does to those kids and today the horrors that young parents put their kids through all over this country are far worse than aborting them and sending them back to Heaven. I had a near-death experience and Heaven is a way better place to live than anywhere on planet earth with irresponsible, ill-equipped, broke, crack, smack and meth-addicted teens who make up 22% of all births in America today. These are kids who never had any parenting of their own and whose parents raised them in the same kind of homes and for whom abortion is a far better choice than another generation of that---believe that!
Fast forward to 2011 and there are a billion more mouths to feed than the planet grows food to eat and a million children in America go to bed hungry every single nite because of overpopulation. One in six kids in America are on school lunches and food stamps in homes where 10 people are trying to eat on those food stamps and where nobody is getting fed properly and for many of these kids, this is the only meal they get each day and our welfare programs are all going broke and thousands of churches have closed their food banks because they have no food---and starvation is the newest program in the land of plenty. As a result of "socialized" government food growing in our country 78% of our farms and ranches have gone out of business and because our young people don't want to work anywhere, much less on a farm or a ranch like they used to, more farms and ranches are going under as well. So is abortion better than living in a welfare home in America---you bet it is-- Heaven is way better than that.
So, back to the 70's and I am headed home for the summer carrying a mixed race child and since becoming pregnant I have lost 14 lbs and was looking anorexic. I couldn't eat,sleep or concentrate on anything--my friends all but took my finals for me and it showed--my A's and B's dropped to all C's that semester, do now I had that to deal with as well. I was a wreck. My high boyfriend came home on leave from the Vietnam war and we had two nights together and in letters over several months, I had promised to get on birth control pills and (make love)to my boyfriend of many years for the first time and by the time he got there, I couldn't do it. For one thing, I could not stop throwing up, couldn't keep anything down and couldn't even look at the bottle of Wild Turkey he had brought for our big nite. And no matter how compassionate or inquisitive he was, I could not tell him what was wrong. I didn't tell him what was wrong, yet was obsessed with wondering what I was going to do about it. I had not had a moments piece from all the things that were making me crazy and was in bad health, a spiritual and physical mess and still hadn't told my mom.
When my boyfriend left I raced out to the lake seven miles from my hometown which was a 24/7 hangout for everyone within 20 miles of there and at white sands point, the kid hangout, I began to look for someone I knew I could trust to help me do whatever I needed to do. Sharon was about 3 years older than me; I was 20, barely and I knew Sharon knew the bar owners, the organized criminals in my town, the politicians and lawyers (more organized criminals) and well, Sharon knew everyone and we had been close friends for years. In spite of the fact that I was a very good girl compared to most of the trust fund babies in my hometown I was a "poster child" for why your kids should not hang out with kids who are years older than your kid in their formative years. Okay, on we go---I found Sharon and she freaked and swore herself to secrecy because she knew my mom would disappear me before she would let my gossipy little peyton place town learn that i was pregnant with a black man's baby. Three days later Sharon calls me to meet her at the lake. I get there and she is sitting in the car with my boyfriends' BEST FRIEND. I wanted to kill her. She told me that she did not go to Jimmy, but that the two other people she went to for help did so "inadvertently" and although Jimmy had always been jealous of the time my boyfriend and I spent together, we had grown close over the years and I believed I could keep the five people in my town of 20,000 people from talking any more or revealing my secret because they knew my mom and were terrified of her as much as I was.
Jimmy knew an 86-year-old retired carpenter--you know the kind that build houses--who was doing back room abortions in my town in his retirement. He lived in a one room apartment over a one car garage on the wrong side of town and for $200 he would use a butcher knife and cut my baby out. I would have to stay in his one room apartment for a total of three days, so that he could make sure there were no "aftershocks" because he was "not trying" to go back to prison and if I needed to go to the hospital that there would not be anyone there to take me and Sharon could not be there for any part of it. I bailed out onto the sand in a hundred degree summer heat and hurled in front of no less than 30-40 other kids and jumped back in and blurted out, "where am I going to get $200 and three days away from my mom?" They told me that the two grown-ups who I knew well were going to pay the money. That was like $4000 today,right? Okay,let's go. We went to his apartment which didn't have air conditioning and smelled like a nasty bar and was really dark and crowded and awful and I gave him the money and told him I would be there on Friday nite in 2 weeks:Still in shock, I had remembered that my parents were going away for that weekend and for the first time ever, were leaving me to babysit my brothers who were in high school and Sharon offered to be me with my brothers and swear them to secrecy about doing some whole other thing and I could spend the weekend with the carpenter/abortionist---yeah, the lies are piling up and more and more people know and Sharon baby sitting my brothers was scary in a million ways---she was a MILF without children and my brothers were in high school.
For the first time I was relieved and slept and ate for the first time in months without getting sick. On the day I was supposed to move in with the abortionist, I was a basket case and my friends were trying to talk me out of it--we were all terrified. My mom came in my room where I sat on my bed faking cramps from my fake period and she kissed me and told me they were leaving and all that last minute stuff and she walked out and got into her car and headed for the airport out at the lake. My dad owned a fixed wing Cessna with a couple of other guys and he was flying them to Tenkiller to meet friends. The second I saw her car go over the hill, I began to sob uncontrollably and began to throw up all over my new white carpet. In my insanity I did not notice my mom had come back to the house--she had gone to tell my dad to go on without her--he was conducting meetings that weekend as Pres.of Okla.Cattleman's Assoc. and she told him that she "knew" I was pregnant because she could see the symptoms and that my boyfriend had made me pregnant when he was home on leave and that she was going to stay home and take care of it.
She comes in my room and tells me she knows and scolds me for an hour about letting my boyfriend get me pregnant and is telling me she stayed home to take me to a deserted island---I was raised during the "children are to be seen and not heard" era and speaking out right then might have gotten me killed or something worse, so I let her rant. When she was finished I told her what really happened and that Sharon was on her way to get me to go to the abortionists and that I was handling it on my own. After losing it for another hour, she told me that she had made an appointment for me in New York City at an abortion clinic where they were doing the "first ever" legalized abortions
in America: but that we could not afford for both of us to go, so I was going to have to go do this alone and that I was to tell everyone like my dad and brothers and Sharon that this was my boyfriends baby and then we would never talk about it again. She just glazed right over the rape part. I literally begged her to let me go to the abortionist/carpenter but she refused and now I had to wait and fear this trip for another whole week. I wanted to die and thought about killing myself every day that week, when on Thursday, mom announced a change of plans. She told me that because I was now 4 months pregnant that the doctor in New York had cancelled my surgery and told her that they had legalized abortion at Kansas University Medical Center just that week and gave her a phone number to call them. My mom made an appointment with a receptionist and told them she was not sure how far along I was and that they would have to check. I sure didn't look pregnant, my stomach was inverted. She told me to pack a backpack and get in the car and that after my abortion she wanted to go to the big mall in Kansas City and to wear something cute for after my abortion.
When the doctor examined me and asked me how far along I was and I told him, he refused to do it. He told my mom that although there was no law against this that he wasn't planning to be the first ever abortion doctor to kill a young girl with this brand new procedure and after much begging and pleading from my mom to which his answer had become:"it could kill her," she ordered me out of the room and within 15 minutes I was on a gurney with a drip in my arm and that same doctor telling me to count backwards from ten. What the Hell just happened? We didn't have money, so she didn't pay him to do it. I was rolled onto the KU basketball court where I saw "seas" of my peers in white medical coats behind glass "boxes" where the big wigs usually sat during games and they all had a clip board and were looking at my vagina and then I went to sleep. The next thing I remember I was literally in the parking lot outside the hospital on my way to the mall and had a manshoe size Kotex between my legs to catch the blood.Two weeks after my abortion, my boyfriend took another unexpected leave and showed up on my parents front porch at 6:00 one Saturday morning to break up with me. Jimmy had told him that I had sex with one of the OU football players and had not only lost my virginity, but had gotten myself pregnant and he still does not know the truth about what really happened. My mom died last Christmas and we never talked about it again either. So, please, the next time you opine on abortion or even think about outlawing it please, remember my story!
I have one more thing to say and this is to all of you who think adoption is the answer. Adoption does not work in this country and you will almost never meet a person who plans to adopt who has not spent a fortune trying to make a kid with their own face on it. Last week there was a special on CBS "A HOME FOR THE HOLIDAYS" which detailed the system of adoption and foster care in America, two horrible examples of the throw away kids of America, the ones who nobody wanted from conception and in a world of Octomoms, Kates plus eight and the 19 and counting family, there is no one trying to adopt or trying to foster the millions of adoptive, foster and aged-out of foster program kids in the greatest, most compassionate nation on Earth. I get sooooo angry when people say there is always adoption---not in America--there are no Asians or Latino's adopting because they don't believe in it and there are no black families running out to get one of the tens of thousands of black kids that sit in our group homes, prisons and foster care crack houses, either and no white people want any of these broken kids in any color; they only want an infant and this is the state of things in our country and there is absolutely not one family in America who wants an 18-19 year old severely damaged kid who has been in and out of a couple of dozen really bad foster homes since their parents decided they did not want them and who have aged-out of foster care and are living on our streets by the millions all across America and what are any of you "posers" and "opiners" doing about that? Yeah, I know, not a damn thing. Unwanted children are far better off in Heaven than growing up unwanted in America any day and I hope I have changed one mind here so it will be worth it. Analise Roberts
Being a victim myself, allowed the child to live. Yes you have the choice to kill the child, I chose not to. My conscience is clear on that and so is my soul. Not all poor children, foster care children turn out bad. Not all are damaged or inferior, and even if they were many real parents would love to have them and they have come forward. It may not be a rush but it is there and real. It's a rotten world, but the child committed no crime and he shouldn't have to pay for it. As far as the social injustices you describe, it is understandable and also real, but those issues are left for another forum maybe on social issues. I don't know where anyone said "OUTLAWING ABORTION!" NO ONE SAID THAT EVER! You need some more time to heal, your attitude shows that. LUVU
I healed years ago and if you had read my second response to another commenter then you would know why I am healed and it is the selfishnes of real parents that I am angry with and why this is a social issue---having unwanted children is a social issue just like abortion is a social issue.
I know you didn't say outlaw abortion and I said that parents who are not crack heads are not stepping up to help these kids and that you should get your head out of the clouds and realize that and that for a child to go back to Heaven is way better than living in our very broken foster system and your conscience is only clear because you haven't been in the homes of unwanted children doing volunteer work for forty years like I have--and you are wrong---these kids are damaged and inferior and there is a new problem with foster kids in America---as many as 60% of them have been put on anti-depressants and anti-psychotic drugs because of their inherent problems that come from being abandoned by their birth parents and you are wrong---many real parents are not coming forward to parent these kids---there are MILLIONS of them living on our streets and because no one is looking to adopt or foster a troubled teen---nobody--I do agree the child has commited no crime at birth but by the time they reach their teens most of them are convicted felons and today those are the kids who I take in and mentor and not only will no one take them in--no one will hire them to work----I have met hundreds of both unwanted, unparented and foster kids and have not met one boy child who was not a convicted felon by the time they reach edthe age of 18---not one---that is how well our foster program is working--- I have never met a girl from the hood or the bario who had not had an unwanted kid by the age of 18 and I have never met one white person in America who either adopted or fostered a child-- Have you fostered or adopted a kid???
It is never too late and there are millions of them on our city streets who have aged-out of the system who are still looking for families and that lifelong journey is far more painful than sending a kid back to Heaven. I once took in three sisters in Las Vegas all a year apart and in their teens---between them they had been in more than 150 foster homes and were never allowed to be together---they all had aged-out of the system and destined to be forever without a family and those girls only had horror stories to tell about their foster parents and I have never heard a good story about a foster home any of these kids ever lived in ---but they all knew they were in these homes for the money which was never spent on the kids, but for drugs.
To anjegirl: Thank you for telling your story. You are a wonderful person. Your story is why I am a prochoice feminist who believes in a woman's right to an abortion when the situation arises. No woman should be forced to have an unwanted pregnancy because of its psychological damage to the woman.
You are also correct in discussing adoption and the perilous of children who are unwanted. Children who are unwanted live an infernal life- they are often abused by their parents because they did not have the encourage to have an abortion in its early stages. You are so on target with your statement. You indeed are blessed. Keep on what you are doing- educate those who refuse to know the reality of the situation.
Those who knock abortion and advocate that the woman continue her pregnancy, have and raise the child and/or give up for adoption are heartless, insensitive, and cruel. I understand what rape does to a woman-she is totally dehumanized beyond repair and to tell her if she becomes pregnant, not to have an abortion! What unmitigated gall indeed! Children should be wanted and born into circumstances that nurture him/her. God bless you always, sister. Your story has brought tears to my eyes.
No one is EVER beyond repair. I am an example of that.
Margolyn: This ISN'T about you. Furthermore, you are becoming a bit much. Anjegirl has the right to express her feelings regarding rape. No rape situation is alike. She felt devastated by this inhumane and horrific act. She is NOT you. So, please stop projecting your situation into every rape, okay. THANK YOU MUCH. Anjegirl is helping others like herself, thank God while you keep going on pontificating your opinion ad infinitum!
Looks like she is making a good living off of her misery, see you can make lemonade out of lemons afterall. AGAIN LET ME REPEAT, I NEVER DISCOURAGED ANYONE FROM EXPRESSING THEIR FEELINGS! And I NEVER said they did not have the right to do as they wish. I chose the opposite direction under the same circumstance, and am not angry at anyone, anywhere, anytime. It takes a long time to really heal but it is possible.
I have never been paid for rape counseling and I am not miserable but from the posts from people who know who you are it is clear that you just love to argue.You do and have encouraged people not to express their feelings and over and over you try to sway people to your way of thinking and if you think that rape and abortion are not social issues then you need a lot more education on the subjects and you have no right to tell me or anyone else whether or not they are healed or angry. Everyone else got that I am angry about the fact that millions of "unwanted" babies are being born to mothers who do not want them and I am angry that people in our country are not adopting them and that no "real" people step up to foster the lost kids in our country and I ask you again. Have you adopted or fostered a child in this country?
Thanks again gmwilliams---she had been pontifiacating on this one forum for weeks-------------
Thank you,sir,I do hope some of the other people who have been arguing about this for weeks will also read my post---I am healed because I opened the first rape crisis center in Lake Tahoe after being raped again by a stranger the next year when I went back to school--I dropped out and moved to Tahoe to leave the scene of so much horror and have counseled tons of young girls and boys since---pro bono and with no credentials aside from having been there--counseling is the key to healing!!!
You got a lot to go yet, your anger gives you away.
Margolyn: I didn't feel anger coming from anjegirl, only over the treatment of foster children and the way that she was treated in the past which is completely understandable! it does not make her an angry person which is what you seem to be suggesting. you are a different person and your experience was clearly different. anjegirl seems very selfless; the type who wears her heart on her sleeve and who cared too much about the baby inside her to give it away to anybody who may not have been able to care for it the way he/she deserved. you are not being very nice to anyone who has a different opinion to you. everyone following this knows your feelings on the matter so why continue by trying to crucify another victim?! it seems obvious to me that you have not yet healed either. you will not alter anyone's beliefs with your comments; it seems the only person you're trying to convince is yourself!
To smzclark and anjegirl: You two women are women after my own heart. I applaud you immensely. God bless your fortitude, intelligence, and humanity regarding this issue. You are intelligent and thoughtful women.
Thanks again for the support guys and tomorrow I will be doing a poll on this subject and writing my first hub about this subject--but your words are kind and appreciated and really Margolyn has been on this subject for months---now she can go to my hub and talk about it some more---she still hasn't told me if she has fostered or adopted a child
Thanks for your support---this prompted me to do a hub with a poll--would love to have your vote on this
Hi, I decided to do a hub about this and I have a poll which will launch my next poll and even Margolyn can vote on it---thanks for the love and support for all women who face such a difficult choice in life
Anger never solved any issues and abortions havn't conrolled the population either. Every time we abort one child, 5 illegals take it's place folks.
PLEASE MOMMY, DON'T KILL ME! I DIDN'T DO IT!
Margolyn, ENOUGH ALREADY! Please give it a rest! You have stated your opinion regarding this issue ad infinitum. Please do not monopolize this post. Give others a chance to voice their opinions. This is not YOUR post. Please, ENOUGH! Say goodbye, Margolyn. NO ONE wants to hear your prosletyzing anymore. Your opinion is not the only legitimate opinion regarding abortion. In other words, you are quite immature in your stance besides being quite a tyrant!
I only respond to those who request a reply. Don't like the heat, get out of the kitchen, stop reading me, delete me etc. Stop following my answers, HIT THE DELETE BUTTON....Kill the rapist not the innocent baby.
No Margolyn. I can stand the heat. Obviously, you cannot. It seems to me that you become threatened when others express opinions and beliefs that are different from yours! You resort to infantile banter in a twisted and insecure need for attention! Me, me, me, me ad infinitum. Margolyn, you are not a mature woman but an infantile whiner. Get off it, woman! You are beginning to get-T-I-R -E-D and tired quickly! What's wrong, Margolyn, are you so insecure that you are afraid to learn from others! What a narrow way to be! The purpose of education and having others view their opinions is to broaden preconceived ideas. However, this concept is lost on atavistic minds such as yours! Good day!
P.S. Margolyn, DELETE! Good bye!
I have learned from others for 67 years, I welcome their opinions and I do not discourage them. DON'T KILL THE BABIES, THEY ARE INNOCENT. THAT'S MY RESPONSE TO
"Should the mother keep the baby if she is raped?" Trying to demean others because of their opinions is obviously childish. I responded to the question like many others did. Did you notice? OOOOOOOOOOOO you learned a new word today?
Margolyn, I am the WRONG person to mess with. DON'T TRY IT! I am not the one who is demeaning others for expressing different opinions. Don't you use your displacement mechanism on me. YOU are the one demeaning and deriding others for expressing quite intelligent opinions. Margolyn, you have unresolved issues. Please see a psychologist to remedy them, okay. Let others express their opinions and try not to interject YOURS each time! Again, this is not MARGOLYN'S post but a post for all of those in this wonderful HubPages community who wish to INTELLIGENTLY contribute to the discussion!
DON'T KILL THE BABIES! They are not at fault. Now that's an intelligent thought. Let me remind you I only post when someone posts me. Just like you just did. I responded. Ignore my posts and leave it alone then.
Hi again===please read the comment i just made to margolyn and help me try to get her kicked off of hubpages===she is daily doing this and is likely to catch some young girl in a very vulberable state like joyce who commented on my hub yesterday and this woman could cause a horrible tragedy---she is dangerous to the general public
OMG===margolyn is 67 years old====so no this is not her in the picture===lady you seriously need help as ms. williams said----you are messed up and heavily in denial===
To anjegirl, autumn 18, and other intelligent likeminded individuals, all you wonderful, enlightened people have to do is the next time Margolyn post a statement, press report and report her vitriolic and abusive behavior to the team@hubpages. With enough participants, Margolyn will be banned from HubPages. It has been done before with people who show marked bias. To you wonderful women, keep up the fight for women's reproductive freedoms especially the right to choose. Thank you all and God bless you!
P.S. Margolyn is seriously damaged from her experience. Maybe she had made a poor choice and feels guilty about it. This unresolved guilt is seriously impacting upon her ability to function as a logical and reasoning person. I do not believe that she is 67 years old and acting like an immature schoolgirl.
The best thing to do is the next time Margolyn says something offensive report her. Unless she is violating the TOS of Hub Pages she has,unfortunately, First Amendment rights like everyone else.
The second best thing to do is what I did -- just ignore her. If no one posts on this forum, she will not have a soapbox.
Or ask HP to close the entire forum down. That's an option as well.
The sick thing is, it's clear Margolyn is getting under people's skins. Which I have to believe is her intent.
I just asked how you report someone who is bullying and trolling as she has been doing on hubpages and lots of people are saying she does not have the right to do this and she could cause serious harm to someone like joyce and our federal government has laws against cyber-bullying and that is what she is doing and the hubpage rules say someone can get kicked off of hubpages for trolling and bullying---so onward and upward i plan to give it my all analise
When did it become about population? Thousands of children and teens still in the system without homes. It wasn't their fault they were conceived right?
The last part that you repeated from your last response is kind of offensive to me. It clearly is playing on the guilt for the woman who chose abortion after being raped. We are talking about rape victims remember.
Also the use of the word mommy is a little off to me because a mom doesn't happen until they have a child and care for it. If we say that a man who just gets a girl pregnant and leaves isn't a father then I think the same should be for women.
I was not the one who brought up population issue issue in the first place, I was responding. A pregnant woman is considered a Mother, looks like a mother too. Babies are innocent, rapists are not, punish the rapist not the baby.
Yeahbutnobut... what if in avoiding punishment to the baby, you end up punishing the mother?
For some women who are pregnant as a result of rape, the prospect of pregnancy and childbirth probably does seem like a huge punishment. Especially if they have to factor in things like the reaction of family members and and husbands/boyfriends.
Sorry but I don't think you're getting this, which is why you've had some dusty answers on this forum. I appreciate that you yourself have gone through a tough time in this area, but surely you must realise that one size doesn't fit all.
To Empress Felicity: I totally concur with you. Most people would concur with you because common sense dictates this. However, this point is lost on Margolyn. She refuses to comprehend the horrific issue of rape with its infernally deleterious effects. Rape is a horrific enough injustice but to tell a rape victim to endure pregnancy and have the baby is demoniac beyond all reasoning. No woman should have an unwanted pregnancy and child. This is beyond abysmal and is highly insulting to women. I applaud you, Empress Felicity, for your logic regarding this matter. God bless you!
We all go through trials in our lives, these challenges either make us or break us. All post traumatic stress victims including rape victims, do survive and go on to live positive lives. It's a horrible crime, but I NEVER TOLD ANYONE TO NOT GET AN ABORTION... I only suggest alternative options.
I AM ABOUT TO DO EVERYTHING I CAN TO GET YOU KICKED OFF OF HUB PAGES===FOREVER !!!!!
BUT FIRST I HAVE ONE OR TWO MORE THINGS TO SAY TO YOU:
NOT ALL PEOPLE WITH POST TRAUMATIC STRESS
"SURVIVE AND GO ON TO LIVE POSITIVE LIVES"======
THAT IS POSSIBLY THE MOST RIDICULOUS THING YOU HAVE
SAID WHILE TROLLING THIS FORUM AND HARRASSING NEW
AND "UNSUSPECTING" INNOCENT VICTIMS EVERY SINGLE DAY
AND WHILE YOU ARE AT IT AND NOT TO GIVE YOU ANY NEW IDEAS======
BUT TRY TELLING THAT TO THE 18 BRAVE MEN AND WOMEN WHO ARE COMMITTING SUICIDE EVERY SINGLE DAY IN AMERICA ==== (Guardian.co.uk./ Dec. o9 2011)
"RAPE IN THE US MILITARY: AMERICA'S DIRTY LITTLE SECRET"
TRY TELLING THEM THAT "ALL" PTSD VICTIMS GO ON TO LIVE POSITIVE LIVES=====
EIGHTEEN AMERICAN WAR VETS EVERY DAY ARE KILLING THEMSELVES BECAUSE OF PTSD OR LOST LIMBS OR LOST
FACES OR PARALYSIS OR SOMETHING FAR MORE HORRIBLE LIKE=====
RAPE IN THE US MILITARY PERPETRATED BY FELLOW SOLDIERS
AND FROM FIGHTING POINTLESS WARS IN IRAQ AND
AFGHANISTAN FOR YOU!!
FYI=WHEN I WAS RAPED IN THE 70'S==NO ONE KNEW FROM PTSD!!!
AND FREE IS FREE FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT WICKED LIARS LIKE YOU ARE====
AS I TOLD YOU I LEFT COLLEGE AFTER NOT ONE BUT TWO VIOLENT RAPES IN FOUR SEMESTERS===I DO NOT HAVE A DEGREE AND THUS I CANNOT GET PAID TO DO THIS WORK===
GOD BRINGS ME THE RAPE VICTIMS AND HAS BROUGHT ME HUNDREDS AS I HAVE ALREADY TOLD YOU AND ALL OF WHOM I COUNSELED FOR FREE====
YOU HAVE PREACHED TO DOZENS OF INNOCENT SURVIVORS AND VICTIMS OF THIS HEINOUS CRIME AD INFINITUM ABOUT ADOPTION AND FOSTER CARE====
AND YOU HAVE YET TO ANSWER MY QUESTION====HAVE YOU EVER ADOPTED A CHILD AND ARE YOU INVOLVED OR HAVE YOU EVER BEEN INVOLVED IN FOSTERING A CHILD?????????????
I AM GOING TO DO WHATEVER I CAN TO GET YOU KICKED OFF OF HUBPAGES AND I WOULD LIKE TO ASK ALL OF YOU WHO HAVE BEEN TRYING TO KICK SOME SENSE INTO THIS WOMAN FOR MONTHS===========TO HELP ME WITH THIS
SHE COMES HERE DAILY TO HARRASS ANYONE WHO COMES HERE TO VOICE THEIR OPINIONS ON THIS EXTREMELY SENSITIVE SUBJECT.
I BELIEVE SHE IS A POSER WHO DOESN'T WRITE HUBS, BUT ONLY RUNS AROUND ON HUBPAGES SPEWING HATRED TO ANYONE WHO WILL LISTEN===
PLEASE EVERYONE HELP ME GET HER KICKED OFF FOR GOOD===
BECAUSE OF MARGOLYN I WROTE MY FIRST HUB ON RAPE AND A BORTION AND I SENT HER
AN EMAIL AFTER I WROTE IT TO INVITE HER TO READ IT AND ANSWER A POLL ABOUT RAPE AND ABORTION====
SHE HAS YET TO SHOW HER FACE ON MY HUB AND MANY OF THE WOMEN WHO ARE "REALLY" RAPE VICTIMS HAVE COME THERE AND COMMENTED THAT THEY TOO HAD FALLEN VICTIM TO MARGOLYN'S ANGER AND MADNESS ALL OVER HUBPAGES====
I DO NOT BELIEVE MARGOLYN IS A RAPE VICTIM OR SURVIVOR AFTER REVIEWING DOZENS AND DOZENS OF COMMENTS THAT SHE HAS MADE ON THIS ONE FORUM====SHE DOES THIS DAILY
THE COMMENTS THIS WOMAN IS MAKING ARE BEYOND CRUEL AND SHE SHOULD BE BANNED FROM SAYING ANTHING TO ANYONE WHO MIGHT BE VULNERABLE ENOUGH TO TAKE THEIR OWN LIFE !!!
YESTERDAY JOYCE 818 WHO WAS GANG RAPED COMMENTED FOR PUBLICATION ON MY HUB ABOUT HER STORY===
THIS GIRL IS EXTREMELY FRAGILE AND YOU CAN HEAR IT IN HER COMMENT AND I DO NOT WANT MARGOLYN TO START BASHING HER OR ANYONE ELSE===
JOYCE WAS GANG RAPED ON HER 25TH BIRTHDAY
(WHICH HINTS AT THE FACT THAT SHE MIGHT HAVE BEEN WITH MALE FRIENDS OR NOT, BUT THIS COULD BE THE CASE)
AND IF SHE HAS NOT MADE IT TO THIS FORUM I WANT TO SPARE HER FROM THIS NUTJOB, MARGOLYN
YOU SEE JOYCE IS COMING UP ON HER 26TH BIRTHDAY AND IS HAVING A REALLY HARD TIME AND
I WILL EMAIL HER TONITE AND OFFER HER "DAILY" FREE RAPE AND RECOVERY COUNSELING WHICH MARGOLYN DOES NOT BELIEVE EXISTS AND
I WILL OFFER THIS YOUNG LADY "DAILY" SKYPING IN WHICH I WILL TEACH HER TO MEDITATE AND TEACH HER MANY OTHER TECHNIQUES THAT WILL GOD WILLING HELP HER TO REALLY
RECOVER AND LIVE A "POSITIVE LIFE" AND
WITH MY "DR. PHIL" FAST TRACK APPROACH,
I HOPE AND PRAY I CAN EASE HER WITH LOVE INTO THIS UPCOMING BIRTHDAY AND ALL OF HER BIRTHDAYS INTO THE FUTURE=====
I ASK ALL WHO READ THIS TO "PRAY" FOR THIS PRECIOUS ANGEL THAT SHE CAN BE HEALED AND THAT SHE WILL FEEL OUR LOVE ON HER UPCOMING 26TH BIRTHDAY AND
PLEASE DO NOT TELL JOYCE ABOUT THIS FORUM,
BUT PLEASE DO; TO GO TO MY HUB AND TELL JOYCE THAT
AN ANGEL SENT YOU THERE FOR HER AND TELL HER YOU ARE PRAYING FOR HER AND OFFER THIS BABY GIRL SOME WORDS OF FAITH AND BIG WISHES FOR A HAPPY 26TH BIRTHDAY, PLEASE=====
AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST HELP ME GET THIS VICIOUS AND VILE WOMAN OFF OF HUB PAGES FOR GOOD. SHE LOOKS SOOOOOOOO SWEET IN HER PICTURE, WHICH CERTAINLY MAY NOT BE HER
BECAUSE IF I WAS SAYING THE THINGS SHE IS SAYING I WOULD NOT WANT THE WORLD TO SEE ME===
THE PICTURE ON MY PROFILE IS MY GORGEOUS NIECE BECAUSE MY NEW LAPTOP WON'T ACCEPT JUST THE "SCANNER" PART OF MY NEW PRINTER, SOO
GOD BLESS YOU ONE AND ALL AND PLEASE===
PLEASE, PLEASE===GO SUPPORT JOYCE & TELL HER
HAPPY 26TH BIRTHDAY AND PLEASE PLEASE
GET "FIVE" === TWENTY-SOMETHING-YEAR OLDS TO GO THERE
ALSO AND LIFT THIS YOUNG GIRL UP====
IT REALLY HELPS TO FEEL LOVE AND TO GET SUPPORT
AND WELL WISHES AND HAPPY BIRTHDAYS===
FROM THEIR PEERS
AND DOES ANYONE KNOW??? CAN YOU CALL HUB PAGES??? ANALISE
this woman has been coming on this forum for months every day to fight with others and she is offensive to everyone, please read my comment from a few minutes ago about why she should be kicked off of hubpages thanks and god bless
I don't know. Maybe I missed the posts? but I do not think she is any worse than some others on here.
If there is something I am missing she said, could you show me?
I have seen the "kill the rapist" remark and I would not kill anyone, but she has a right to her opinion.
Even the one about PTSD.
For months she has been coming on here and daily telling women who have been raped and got pregnant that had to have kept that baby like she says she did===this woman says in every third post to these women "" MOMMY, MOMMY, WHY DID YOU HAVE TO KILL ME===YOU SHOULD HAVE LET ME LIVE""
PLEASE FOLLOW JUST MY CORRESPONDENCE WITH HER OVER THE PAST 48 HOURS
SHE HAS THE POTENTIAL TO CAUSE SOMETHING EVEN MORE HORRIBLE THAN RAPE TO HAPPEN TO VERY VULNERABLE YOUNG GIRLS WHO HAVE BEEN THROUGH THIS===I HAVE BEEN COUNSELING RAPE VICTIMS FOR FOUR DECADES AND THIS WOMAN IS DANGEROUS
Sorry. I just returned from a four month vacation from hubs... so I am not familiar with some of the posters here now.
But I agree, that is unacceptable to be taunting people with that. I am strongly against abortion in most all cases, even rape, but it is the woman's choice in that instance.
As I have said, life of the mother, rape, and incest, are the only allowable exceptions in my mind.
I will follow along and see what is up.
The big topics are out tonight. I always think that abortion is a personal issue. I can't imagine having one myself, but then I'm fortunate in also not being able to imagine rape. Who knows what they would do until this situation happens to them? And then it's for each person to decide. And nobody need judge them. It's really not as black and white as some people make out.
Ms Margolyn, your thinking is no way different from China which has a one child policy, it comes with strict laws to have only one child per couple without any due respect to what couple want or what the woman wants for that matter. You are trying to dictate what is morally right for you without any respect for what the woman really wants.
I do not dictate to anyone. It is her decision, all I have to say is
IF YOU WERE RAPED WOULD YOU HAVE AN ABORTION?
MY ANSWER NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO to the question. No dictating here.
Again let me repeat myself. Don't want to get into social issues here from another country, the question was SHOULD A WOMAN GET AN ABORTION IF SHE IS RAPED? AGAIN I REPEAT
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO DO NOT KILL YOUR BABY, KILL THE RAPIST.
reproductive rights, women's rights, value of life are social issues. actually the issue in China is related as abortion rate in China increases bec of that policy and if you are really concern about what you call baby's life (You were saying mommy, why did you kill me) then you will be concern about that policy as well. I discussed the China policy with regards to the unwanted pregnancy due to rape bec both are about the women's right pertaining to their bodies.
I never said she didn't have the right to choose. Again, I will say
KILL THE RAPIST NOT THE BABY....
This "kill the rapist" line is new to the discussion.
Rape is not a crime punishable by death unless there are aggravated circumstances.
Are you advocating what it appears you are advocating here?
That if you are raped you should take the law into your own hands and kill your rapist?
So you can later tell the child you carried to term that s/he is the spawn of a rapist. And the child will ask, "Mommy, what happened to that man?" "Oh, don't worry, honey. I offed him -- but I let you live!"
That is a very, very, very, very sick scenario.
and what if your baby took after his father and went on to rape....would you kill him too?!
THIS WOMAN IS VERY SICK AND DANGEROUS AND I ENCOURAGE YOU TO REPORT HER AS OTHERS ARE DOING---THIS IS A DAILY ACTIVITY FOR HER FOR THE PAST 6 MONTHS AND SHE IS DANGEROUS TO VULNERABLE VICTIMS OF THIS CRIME AND IS TELLING PEOPLE TO COMMIT MURDER THIS FALLS UNDER HATE SPEACH IN THE REPORT WINDOW WHICH I FINALLY JUST FOUND ANALISE
I believe that a baby is not a human until it is given a soul. Since we, as humans, can not infer when this is we should not make a woman who was raped against her will keep a baby against her will. The outlying repercussions for these actions may have lasting effects on society. The rapist should die though. If not death perhaps castration for the individual....
this woman has been daily bullying everyone who tries to come here and answer this question please see my long post calling for her to be stopped she is very dangerous and is spewing hate and goading rape victims and proposing women go out and kill their rapists she needs to be stopped before she does any more damage to victims of this crime
My personal opinion is that, even in the case of rape, a woman should not abort her child.
Not to sound heartless, but....yes bad things happen. Terrible things. But i don't think that that justifies the act of aborting the child simply because in delivering the child it is psychologically difficult for the mother.
However, I do not judge those who choose to do so. I understand perfectly a woman's feelings on this. I would just advise her to reconsider.
Not to be at all insensitive but in an effort to understand have you been raped, sweetheart and if you have and do not want to say so, i totally understand. i have been raped twice and my story is in a comment from a few days ago and i have been doing rape counseling for four decades and if you want my help please email me privately--i do this for free by skype or whatever
Have you ever been raped? Do you know anyone who has?
baby email me with a phone number if you want and i will call you in about 40 minutes if that is good?? i need to email a girl who told me on my hub about this subject that she has been gang raped and needs help now love you much baby girl and i will help analise
Incessant harassment and spamming of hubbers are definitely prohibited under the bylaws of HubPages.
The report button is along the lower right hand corner of the comment box.
I'm not overly concerned that some vulnerable recently raped person is going to find their way onto this particular forum and get freaked out by the "Mommy, mommy you should have let me live" comments.
People genuinely looking for information on a topic will look in the actual hubs before they find their way into our forums.
Still, it's good to be familiar with the Hub Pages terms of service so that we recognize when someone has crossed the line.
As crazy and distasteful as some of her comments seem, I agree with TMMason here that I don't see anything outright "banworthy."
I'm sorry.. but I was just viewing some of the hubs, and came across this one.. I just feel I need to add my 2 cents. Abortion is totally up to the mother! Everyone is different. Why should anyone be forced to bring a child into this world out of rape? That's just ridiculous. Anyone with any type of education should know better.. they should know that its not healthy for the child, nor for the mother to be forced to give birth to a child that was a product of rape (and if they dont know, they need to go read a book). The rape baby is better off in heaven. Right now that baby is living a much more glorious life than any of us can imagine here on Earth. Afterall, the main goal is to get to heaven.
And as far as Margolyn. Its ok. We cant get angry with people like her, because she's probably just venting. She probably hasn't healed yet from whatever happened to her, and its O.K. Everybody copes in their own way, so arguing is probably Margolyn's way of venting, which probably helps her cope. She probably gets a kick when we get angry from her responses, so by us getting angry, we're just feeding into her excitement. Some people have a weird way of coping, and this is probably the best she can do. Im sure some people Never recover, and they need constant coping strategies to lead a normal life, its really sad, but its the truth. So Margolyn, if you need to vent, then vent! Just get it alllll out! We are your cyber friends, so we're here for you! However, you should be aware that you don't have to argue as a way of coping.. because there are easier ways to cope. I recommend that you seek a professional help very soon (its never too late to get help). I hope you heal very soon, and I will pray for you if you need me to. So please please finally straighten out your life, get it back on track, find God, and seek a psychologist for goodness sake--because it really pains me to see people like you who truly Never heal. My prayers go out to you. God Bless.
I did not get an abortion. My conscience is clean. I wasn't even getting angry either, I was trying to get the woman who did post her rape story, and abortion to not be so angry. It's been 45 years, and I am healed that is why I was trying to get these women to reconsider abortion, because there are other options and I don't want to get into social issues like she did or population control. ALL I ASK IS DON'T KILL THE BABIES KILL THE RAPIST, HE IS TRULY THE GUILTY ONE.
I'm truly curious to know how you can say you have healed or that you weren't getting angry.
You were going ok with your message that you chose not to abort your child and you want to make sure others who find themselves in a similar situation recognize there are alternatives so they can make the right choice for them.
I don't think anyone has a problem with that.
But as soon as you started advocating to KILL THE RAPISTS you completely nullified your claim that you have "healed" and are not "angry."
That is raw, unbridled ANGER right there.
Do you not see that you make it difficult, if not impossible, to take the first 1/2 of your message seriously when the second 1/2 of your message is so off the wall???
I sincerely hope that if you have any contact with rape victims you do NOT counsel them to kill their rapist!
I have healed and am only angry with the powers that be who advocate killing baby, destroying the mother in more ways than one and allowing the guilty to go on and live. That I do not think is unbridled. It's very simple, don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Trying to diminish me on this forum is irrelevant. Women are suffering and dying with a notion that it is o.k. to kill the babies. They have been brain washed into a situation while they are under severe duress and post traumatic stress. Yes, they do have the right to do what they wish with their bodies. No one can take that right away from them. And no one can take my right away from me for defending the beautiful unborn and free speech. It's unfair and wrong to kill the innocent. With support, these victims can be helped, its a tough road and a challenge they can overcome, but again its up to them. .I am not a counselor, or an attorney or a priest. I came through the storm and many others can to, to go on with a peaceful life and spirit. Yes, it is anger against the criminals, but never anger with the mother or child.
I look at abortion as SHOOTING ONE'S SELF IN THE FOOT.
You will limp the rest of your life. One can be healed and still get angry, I do not counsel others to abort, I do not work to help control the population, I do not advocate many others who victimize the victims.
That is what the anger is all about.
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