I don't have anything against fundamental Christianity, per se. But I don't understand why none but a very tiny number stand up for the integrity of their faith and the memory of the words of Jesus.
When someone posts hateful comments, under the guise of 'I didn't say it, God did' and you know it is uncaring and unjust; why do you remain silent?
When someone posts a crazy and slightly evil take on prophesy and calls himself greater than Zeus and the right hand of Jesus; why do you not denounce it but cheer them on?
I am curious. What exactly makes you consider it Christian to cheer on the hateful speech? What causes the claim anyone makes to Christianity force you to set aside all decency in dealing with the issues?
They want to see you saved instead of destroyed. That is what's wrong with them. Too much compassion to keep from warning you of what lies ahead.
Perhaps it would be kinder to follow this ancient church saying:
"Evangelize always, and when necessary, use words."
It may be a church saying, but it's not biblical. For example:
He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."
Whatever the text may, or may not, say; no one has the right to use it for hate speech. That's what prompted the question. There are those here who use the Bible as justification for insulting entire groups of people in the most heinous fashion imaginable. And those within their belief structure do not speak out against it. I was curious why.
Jesus, said' very clearly in the bible, to love God, yourself and and to love your enemy as yourself.. he taught non-judgement..of others.. The bible was written several hundred years after Jesus...It is full of misperceptions and upside down thinking especially in the old Testament..
Exactly. Which is why I have an increasing aversion to Christianity. Few pay attention to that.
I don't agree with you; the NT is more full of misperceptions and upside down thinking ; and more so because it undermines the way Jesus treaded on.
According to the teachings by Jesus in the Course in Miracles, He said, "that when someone speaks insanely about someone else or judges another, refuse to join them, in their magical belief or thought system by correcting them .Always defend the person, or persons they are talking badly about.. He said, they will be corrected on another level. You weaken their belief system, by not attacking them.
That darned St. Francis of Assisi. What did he know. I'll side with you.
You did know this was sarcasm, didn't you?
I'm still on St. Francis' side.
You got a laugh out of me when I read it.
So am I! He's one of my favorite saints because of his reverence for all life, and respect for other humans as he respected himself. What a guy!
The difference between really compassionate people and fundamentalists is that a really compassionate person doesn't wish they could be there to throw a few atheists into the pit. Many fundamentalists do.
But then again, most fundamentalists are heretics and won't be throwing anyone into the pit. They will be joining us. lol....
You better hope your belief is a fantasy. I'm convinced of it. The good news is, you're going to die and you aren't going to wake up dead. Doesn't that sound like a blessing? Does to me.
living in a fantasy land. You seriously believe god implanted a 5 month fetus in your wife?
Sir Dent I can assure you. Without a shadow of doubt in my heart. If heaven and hell exist, each and every time you turn a blind eye to this behavior it is as much a strike against you as the person spewing the hatred.
There are times I wonder if hell is real that it wasn't simply created to corral the fundamental Christians and all the other zealots when everything is said and done. Because there could be no perfection in eternity, no peace in eternity and no chance of any harmony with this type of mentality around.
Whoa, friend! There is so much hate rhetoric out there that it is hard to keep up with. I tend not to like to be online very much. I think my energy is better spent contributing positively to my community of fellow humans outside my door. Jesus promised that if we spread kindness, we'll be blessed (not exact biblical words, but my own summary, if you'll pardon that). If I spend all of my energy on the craziness of the hate-mongers, I wouldn't have energy to give love to my family. I'd rather spend my temporal energies doing good than paying attention to those who spread hate. They only have the power if people listen to them and act on their ideas, anyway. So what if people of the states that want to make homosexuality a crime ignored them and treated their fellow humans with tolerance and kindness despite their sexual orientation or gender identity? All the crazies would have no platform. They only speak out when they know they have an audience.
Warning for lies ahead? Go figure, you would THINK that you know, when you actually do not. Just THINK you do.
There was a post on another online forum that I came across once, it went a little something like this:
"I hope there's popcorn in heaven because I can't think of anything more entertaining than watching you burn in hell for eternity"
Of course the real root of the problem, dare I say, is the belief system itself.
If you believe people should be judged by their attitudes and actions, you will probably lean away from traditional Christianity. It's really that simple.
The basic humanity in all of us is one of the most profound and important reasons why traditional Christian belief is declining, even within the Christian community.
Lol, indeed, but you'd be surprised. Some sects used to actively teach people that watching the torments of the damned was going to be great fun.
Schadenfreude can be a powerful motivator for some folks.
But throwing Christians to the lions was a more worthy pasttime?
And how about current perescutions going on right now behind many communists blocks.
Humans can be such violent people.
Christians who use scripture as conversation, and nothing else seem insecure to me,but I dont hate them for doing it,as the old saying goes "Dont shoot the messenger'
I do understand how irritating it must be if one doesnt like the author though.
I too, get annoyed with the repetitive chants,mocking,insults from the athiests
This is why your religion causes war...
(Bet as a kid you took a stick ,and poked a bees nest ,then complained bitterly when you were stung?)
Mmmm the "turn or burn sucker" brigade have been silent recently.
You seem like a thinking Christian. How come you don't step up to the plate when prejudice is slung and the scriptures are used for justification?
Like I said at the top of this thread. I don't have anything against fundamentalists, as long as they don't use their beliefs as justification for hate speech. I have a serious problem with that. I would think any decent person would find it offensive for the scriptures to be used to support it.
I realize we disagree on the heaven and hell issue, but hate speech? It's wrong.
I do step up when I see hate, or conflict ,however its a never ending tirade at times.
Many times a particular poster will copy n paste and as English isnt their first language,its often a waste of time to bother responding.
I tend to ignore anything of a repetitive nature as well, no doubt many d the same to me
Then overly emotional posts are not going to like what I say either,whether they be Christian or otherwise.
People going to hell -babies born with deformities-bashing homosexuals ,oh there are so many emotive topics that bring all kinds of baggage to the table.
Some I respond too ,some I ignore ,some I applaud,some I challenge.
If I am challenged with the word of God ,I try to answer as I understand it or I see it written.
I agree 100% hate speech is wrong.
Bottom line-Im not perfect ,who is?
there are times that a christian would need to defend his belief, even amid a mob. but most of the time, defending belief, from people who simply speak hatred and insults, just doesn't make sense at all. it is not worth it to get into a heated debate when you know people won't listen to your points.
Well, I would think to stand by and do nothing is worse. But that's just me. I'm not a Christian. I wouldn't feel comfortable being associated with that much hatred.
yes, it sure is uncomfortable and it makes a christian feel bad. but when a debate is not going anywhere, for me, it's a waste of time.
i had personal experiences of that. when i can sense that a group of people would just answer me with sarcasm and bring about questions with the kind of motive, i know answering them will just be throwing away gold to the swine. but when questions are sincere, i'd be more than happy to share what i i've learned.
of course, there are times when walking away becomes downright unwise. like when someone tells to my face that my religion causes too much conflicts, i do not hesitate to stand up. i will prove that person he is wrong. but again, a person should discern when it is wise to answer and when it's simply a waste of time.
I think we're talking on different wave lengths here. But, that's ok. The problem I perceive seems to be one that will remain a mystery.
when all are barking, your voice cannot be heard no matter how hard you try.
when one directs a bark at you, that person is probably willing to hear what you are gonna say. but if that same person is just barking, your voice would most probably be just overwhelmed by his barking.
Yes, that is true. But I guess my question is why do the people with decency within the ranks of christianity not denounce the barking that comes from within christianity when it includes hatred for others? Sometimes I think they're scared to. Like they think maybe the speaker is right that their god hates people. So it almost seems as if they agree with the speaker.
Silent approval of the hatred. It's disconcerting.
i guess i was speaking about my own understanding of being a christian, not as the whole christianity known today. the problem lies deep in the teachings, and the way religious leaders teach the bible. the result... they don't fully understand the purpose of speaking and living in the way of god. they may understand it somehow, but they are not able to apply it the way it should be.
some are bashing hateful words because that's what they hear right in their churches, from the mouths of their leaders. i asked one woman why she left the christian group wherein she actively participated. her answer was, i don't like the way they throw those words at other christian groups. i just can't take it no more.
religious leaders teach god as hateful god, saying he is gonna torment individual in hell, day and night. no, god sent his son to this part of the universe to tell humanity that he and jesus are willing to make great sacrifice for people to be saved, giving everyone the chance and waiting until every person with good heart be able to repent. (there's not even a fiery hell, because the bible says even hell will be thrown in the fire. just how can hell be tormented?) because of this teaching and the teaching that it is god's will to take the lives of innocent people, the known christians cannot really distinguish whether god is love or a god that is full of hatred. how can they denounce hateful speech if they believe those barking christians are actually right? if they denounce it, they are denouncing their own belief.
the bible admonishes christians to always defend their belief by giving answers to people with deep respect. but sadly, that is not what they do. mobs are incited by religious leaders to attack small denominations of christians. those religious leaders even burnt other christians simply because they own and read bible. the examples set by these leaders made intense impact on the thinking of their members.
the bible says, love your enemy. but look, these religious leaders are praying for it's members before they took off for war. and guess what, the ones they are battling against are also from their group who live in other land. they're not even enemies; they're their brothers. so, how can they denounce hateful speech when they actually kill each other?
another reason is the loose of conduct that is so evident today. 2 tim 3:1-5 explains why. "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy... Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."
this passage, in particular, provides the most significant explanation.
"having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away"
That's a good answer, from what I suspect is a very good person. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Of course, it makes you wonder what would possess people to fall for that message and follow in the first place.
The Christians don't follow Jesus and Mary; that is where they are wrong.
Seems to me ,you are comfortable playing both sides of the fence at times.
And do you really think an Athiest doesnt spew out hate ,everytime they mock and belittle a fellow human being?
Christians feel hated, but are commanded to love in return( of course we know not all reach that status so gracefully) but my point is this.
What do you really want to hear about Gods love?
I didn't see this one. I'm not playing a fence. I was honestly confused on this issue, but I see no reason to run it into the ground. You don't get the question. You don't see the hypocrisy.
I've got a handle on it now. Thanks for playing. You played a key role in giving me the answer. And I don't mean that sarcastically.
"But throwing Christians to the lions was a more worthy pasttime?"
I don't think I said anything even remotely like that.
"And how about current perescutions going on right now behind many communists blocks."
Um...relevance? Genuinely confused.
"(Bet as a kid you took a stick ,and poked a bees nest ,then complained bitterly when you were stung?)"
Okay, now I'm really, really confused.
Are you really replying to my post, or are those comments meant for another person?
If me, why on Earth would you make up stuff about me bothering stinging insects? This is about the most confusing exchange I've had lo these many weeks.
Wow. How sick that someone can watch others suffer. What has happened to us as a race? So much lack of empathy. Children can be so close to heaven unless taught otherwise. Teaching the next generation to hate is such an abomination in the eyes of the universal deity!
I grew up Catholic and came a cross a progressive community in Boston dedicated to social justice in all its forms. I now belong to a Unitarian church. I love these people, and the fact that Unitarianism is a religious philosophy that encourages people to think about what they believe...to think for themselves...to use the mind we were born with!
The Unitarian Church is one of the best Churches, I've ever been too..They accept everyone!!
Yeah, they have no standards at all! Seriously, if I were going to be the sort of person who identified with a particular church, the church that I'd avoid going to would be a Unitarian one. They're very welcoming, very kind, and not so big on the condemning.
That was really funny!!!
Popcorn in heaven, smiling down on hell
It seems funny at first, but it's really very sad....taking pleasure in others' suffering, whether physical or spiritual.
There's your answer. It is considered "compassionate" to perpetuate hate speech.
I would agree with that answer from the perspective of an evangelist.
So, what in the world do you do? How do you do it? Posts like the one that made me throw this thing out there...I stopped reading them. Which is wrong, I know. I'm sitting here saying people should speak out and I wouldn't have seen that one if someone hadn't started shouting about it.
Don't you ever get tired of pointing it out, without any response but more hatred? I honestly can't see a way to knock the hard edges off and find something good in the fundamentalist philosophy anymore. And that's a bad thing. There's always something good to be found no matter how small. Nothing can be all bad.
Hate speech can only be combated with more speech. That's it.
Of course, if the Hubpages admins continue to ban members here for the most innocuous and trivial matters, yet allow hate speech, one must wonder where are their priorities?
I have to say I whole heartedly agree with you. I don't know the rules, but if people aren't banned for the type of comments that were made on that other thread, then there should never be anyone banned. I couldn't imagine anything more disgusting.
I think its like bad news sells better than good news and yes I agree ,it is disgusting!
I have to say, I usually look at these things in chronological view. I can't follow other conversations. But when I went through that thing threaded, I got sick. I've never read anything so hateful.
Perhaps if it offended you so ( I am not passing judgement here) just a suggestion ,did you email Hubpages to complain ? maybe report the thread to the correct quarters etc.
No point in reporting those who use religious to abuse others, They claim they are just quoting the bible, no matter that it is homophobic, or threatening, as it's in the book, so they are "just quoting the good book"
On the other hand would we report all books filled with emotions we didnt like or just the Bible ?
As I said, no point in reporting abuse that uses a book as "proof" that people are going to hell, or going to be murdered by a fairy for not believing in it.
I don't care what book it is, any person who abuses others by claiming the abuse must be right cos it is in a book is going to get a good serve from those being abused. Usually ending in the abused getting banned for it. It's bulldust.
I get the heaven and hell thing. I know people who harass me a lot about it, but they honestly have good intentions; so I smile and don't take offense. But when they use it to say men are better than women, and only 'manly' men are of value and pretty much any type of rot; I don't think they should get away with it in the name of religion.
Yet they have got away with it for the two and a half years I have been here.
It may have something to do with that freedom of speech crap !
Ok I should have reworded that better ,but its so irritating when one decides its their right to free speech ,when they have something to say -but not free if another opposes their veiws.
I have no difficulty with people opposing my views.
For some reason I don't enjoy disgusting abuse of others based on a religious belief held by some ignoramus who expects to be able to abuse others with impunity by quoting from a 2,000 year old book.
I dont like being insulted by people fullstop,ignorant or not.
But here we are all the same
Hey wouldnt it be great if all our posts affected adsense -woohoo
I just want to clarify. I am not against free speech, or opposing views. When this same poster shared a drivelly (a word? I don't know) view on women I shot back my opinion. Didn't think twice. But the disgusting posts against homosexuality are something else altogether.
I have no problem with people bashing females. We get that all of the time, but I draw the line when the attacks are against others.
If one uses the bible to create and spread hate speech, we challenge the person spreading the hate speech and not the bible. We can use 'Mein Kampf' to spread hate speech about Jews, too, and then fall back on the excuse that the words were in a book. Again, we don't challenge 'Mein Kampf, we challenge the person perpetuating the hate speech.
I realize you attempted a flippant answer. I don't know if you realize quite how offensive that can be. Are you suggesting hate speech, if it is your interpretation of a book is not only acceptable, but not to be challenged?
No,not at all!
I was responding to Beezles post re content of The Bible. (as he related Hitler and his Biography etc)
And since the author is God ,then seems fair to challenge Him (and His teachings)
By all means confront posters who offend in the name of God.
But I thought that practice was established here on the forums already anyway.
You post 'challenge god' as if the hate speech is being sloughed off on your deity. Pretty convenient for a no show god. At least you've been honest by making it clear how you stand on the issue. Firmly on the side of hatred.
Then your assessment ssems to be quite skewed ,for how can a 'No show God ,show anything?
For example for you to be offended by the statement 'You will go to hell' one must believe there is first a hell-right?
or let me put it another way , I believe Im going to Heaven ,because I believe Christ when He said there was one!
I also think many people think of God and love like Santa Claus and gifts.
Love and gifts are indeed realities ,but isnt the message much broader than this.
I respect your right to judge me ,for what I believe and I also accept earlier observations of me ,ie a thinking Christian,of which I try my best to be.
No, you can make any threat you want and it is still a threat whether the outcome is believable or not.
In other words, you're not threatening anyone with that statement, but are instead just showing everyone you are selfishly superior to others. You are free to show that anytime you want.
We don't respect your threats.
Since when did you speak for everyone?
Did someone elect YOU while I was gone.
Im not selfish, Im willing to share this gift.
It is you who refuse ,then whine ...oooo shes being selfish
Two Words for you
I'm not judging you. I am taking you at your word. Apparently the hate speech, by your word, is from your god. Since it is impossible to speak to him on this matter, I don't know how else to take your suggestion. I'm not sure how your statement could have been seen otherwise..
I have kept out of this so far, but I cannot any longer.
Believers believe the bible, it is the bedrock they should live by, and believers take the bible literally, so it's not unnatural or strange that they quote from it.
What the secular world views as 'hate speech' is perceived from a secular viewpoint, where everyone must be tolerant and accepting of anybody, except those they (the secularists) disapprove of.
In the secularists opinion, they can insist on trying to enforce their 'tolerance' on everyone, even by man made laws that have no sound legal basis.
Reality is that people like and dislike different things, and people, and religions and concepts.
I live in a Muslim country, as a believer in Christ.
I am forbidden by their laws to speak openly about Christ, and could be arrested and deported for doing so.
That's their rules, I obey them even though the rules are wrong.
Any religion that fears it's followers hearing about other religions is corrupt and heading for failure anyway.
The local Muslim rulers practise racial prejudice daily against Chinese and Indian extraction citizens, whose families have been here for 200 years in some cases, they are prejudiced against full born natives of Chinese and Indian extraction, who have Malaysian passports.
They are second class citizens because they are non Muslims, even worse native Malays' are born as Muslims and not permitted to change religion if they want to.
But it's their country and I must respect their laws, and they have the right to hold their biased views for as long as they hold the majority.
We hang drug dealers and murderers, these are their rules.
To an American mindset these are savage rules and certainly not tolerant, but what right does anyone else have to try to enforce their rules on other countries?
Islam is still in the middle ages, compared to Christianity today, and I do mean that literally, for Churchianity was doing the same things in the 1300's
When believers quote scripture, which inflames secular minds, they are NOT normally doing it for fun, they genuinely believe what is written and want to reach unsaved people.
I have left the forums ages ago, too much mass debating with no outcome.
But the reason I used to be in the forums was not to debate with some secularist who was mithering on about Christianity, their opinion is irrelevant,once they have been told the truth, I stayed in the forums in order that any believer of lesser faith and trust in God should not be tempted to become cannon fodder for their inane remarks and find themselves pounced upon by the normal secularist pack of wolves.
For the record, if I see a believer on the wrong track, I would contact them privately and offer advice, not expose them to the secularists that habituate the religious forums, by 'correcting' them in public.
I guess that I am viewed as a fundie by the secularists and a heretic by the fundies, which is fine by me, for the only opinion that matters will be Christ's.
Finally, some scripture that half answers your question and may throw some light on WHY believers keep quoting scripture at secularists:
Luke 17 (Amplified Bible)
....[Jesus] said to His disciples, Temptations (snares, traps set to entice to sin) are sure to come, but woe to him by or through whom they come!
It would be more profitable for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were hurled into the sea than that he should cause to sin or be a snare to one of these little ones [lowly in rank or influence].
Pay attention and always be on your guard [looking out for one another]. If your brother sins (misses the mark), solemnly tell him so and reprove him, and if he repents (feels sorry for having sinned), forgive him.
And even if he sins against you seven times in a day, and turns to you seven times and says, I repent [I am sorry], you must forgive him (give up resentment and consider the offense as recalled and annulled).
That second line should be read by our resident cabal of secularists):
"Temptations (snares, traps set to entice to sin) are sure to come, but woe to him by or through whom they come!
It would be more profitable for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were hurled into the sea than that he should cause to sin or be a snare to one of these little ones [lowly in rank or influence]."
And really finally......
Ezekiel 3:17-19 (Amplified Bible)
Son of man, I have made you a watchman to the house of Israel; therefore hear the word at My mouth and give them warning from Me.
If I say to the wicked, You shall surely die, and you do not give him warning or speak to warn the wicked to turn from his wicked way, to save his life, the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at your hand.
Yet if you warn the wicked and he turn not from his wickedness or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity, but you have delivered yourself.
So there are also sound scriptural reasons why believer will keep trying to warn secularists.
You (just_curious) are trying very hard to be balanced and maintain a civil discussion and I commend you, it bodes well for you, but you will find it difficult to reconcile your question to the answers, however, I wish you well.
BTW You can speak to God, and if your inquiry is genuine, and you can bring yourself to listen for His reply, He will speak to you.
John, you have to admit that there are thousands of interpretations to the Bible. What one believer might say is not the same as another. I do not understand how anyone can circumvent the words of the one whose name they bear and search out reasons to hate a fellow human being.
What I find even more tragic is how any who understand the message of Jesus refuse to step forward and denounce those who would drag that good name into the gutters of hatred. Every time this is done and left unchallenged it would seem to me that another nail is being driven.
I think I have a handle now why none speak out. I'm not happy with the knowledge, but it is what it is.
As I said, I will write directly to another believer who I feel is in error, that's an obligation actually, but unless they are way off the wall, I would not pull them in public.
I would probably post scripture NOT directed at them personally, which refuted their stance or words, and have done many times.
Scripturally we are to go to someone in error in private first, then if they refuse to see the error, with two witnesses (in order to ensure they are in error, and it's not me that wrong)and then if they persist, take them before the 'congregation'.
Technically I guess the forum could possibly count as 'the congregation' though most church bodies are marginally less hostile than forum posters!
As for hate speech, I did not see the quote you speak about, not know who posted it, I would imagine that the poster was a newbie either to the forums and possibly to faith, it happens.
For the first five years of my walk I was a regal pain in the rear end for anybody who 'transgressed' MY concept of righteousness.... we live and learn.
Can you identify the post that offended, I will look at it.
Thanks, you are always a pleasure to deal with!
I doubt it would do any good. I've batted back and forth enough to know this one is firmly entrenched. If it is your policy to combat hatred when you run across it, I'm sure you've already done it. If you haven't, then it's simply a difference of opinion on the definition of what might constitute hate speech.
I have no animosity toward you or your faith.
My question to you is, you claim to be a thinking Christian. As such, what resources have you studied to determine the trustworthiness of scripture, other than scripture itself? Have you studied the process of its being passed on, the actual authorship of the books of the NT, the process of cannonization of the books of the bible? Have you vetted the source of your faith, in other words?
If you haven't, or feel it unnecessary, why would a thinking Christian refuse to investigate such matters? Are we not to love God with all our minds? Would that not mean using it to its fullest capacities to understand the God we are worshipping?
If you have, what sources have you used?
Thanks for asking....
When I came to faith I was the most reluctant believer you could imagine, I was a defector rather than a convert.
Indeed, I started reading the bible to pull it apart and find the loopholes, but 18 months later I had to admit defeat.
Because my whole life had been spent in secular activities which I immediately saw as no longer possible, I had the opportunity to spend the first two years 'eating the scroll' handed to me.
I spent five to seven hours daily in the word, and studying from the greatest biblical scholars I could find.
I've been through Messianic faith, and most other side roads, spend days (before the internet started) comparing passages and words back into Greek and Hebrew, to check the validity of my bibles (plural).
For the first seven years I did little else except review the situation daily.
For the last 12 years I have been a member of a debate group who have members worldwide and who between them have nearly 2000 earth years of study time. We have some great apologists and the main participant is possibly the most learned scholar in church history alive today.
I am NOT a scholar or scribe, I am simply a believer who has reached my determination of faith and trust in God from experience, reading, sceptical investigation and personal revelation.
Hope that answers your inquiry.
So you inquired into none of the secular sources regarding the origins of scripture.
Remember, I asked for specific sources. You have given yours. The bible.
I wrote a hub about indoctrination, and you describe the process almost perfectly. Surround yourself with one idea and submerge yourself in it. Without the alternatives, everything seems like the truth.
I was actually asking eaglekiwi this question, because she described herself as a "thinking Christian". To qualify as such, I think it is very important to be exposed to the alternatives and be able to discuss them. One source can not educate. It can only indoctrinate.
Well I suppose starting reading all manner of different religious books at 14 (searching for answers) might count as exposing myself to other influences, then the 25 years or so that I spent reading just about anything which offered an insight into why the world was as it was may count.
Being a marketing professional and running a couple of international companies seemed to expose me to secular thinking, if I remember correctly.
Even now I will follow the links to secular sites that purport to be able to reform me.
The God Delusion actually had my attention for a while, but failed when I realised that it's author is spiritually dead already, indeed, never spiritually alive is more the point.
Krishnamurti was kinda interesting, but failed in the end.
Alistair Crowley led me astray for a while.
Edward de Bono was fun.....
I think you missed the part where I stated that I DID NOT WANT TO BECOME A BELIEVER in the first place was mentioned.
I tell you I was the happiest sinner in town.
You know nothing of my move to faith that entitles you to think I was indoctrinated, I spent seven years doing NOTHING about Christ, half way up a mountain hiding out from Him, but He pulled me back again.
I now live very much in the secular world and deal with secularism daily in the global business I am involved in.
I think you are mistaken, but nice plug for the hub!
I have one called The J Word if you want to compare!
The only thing I know about you journey to faith is what you told me. You srrounded yourself with apologists who's agenda, by definition, is to convince you of the truth of the faith. You spent seven hours a day studying scripture being led by apologists. Is this accurate? I don't think I am unfairly summarizing what you sais.
My request for sources of study was for how you looked into the origins of scripture. I didn't see that you listed any. I didn't ask if you lived in the secular world or if you read other doctines. We all do that.
It sounds like you came to a crossroads and fell into a group that met your needs at the time. I'm happy for you, but still curious if you have ever vetted the origins of your source material and how.
That is a lie, your bible was written by men, not gods.
Who's god? So many choices, so little reality.
Gods aren't the ones making the threats here, YOU are.
Well, I don't know what the rules are. And I have a strong aversion to the thought of reporting anyone. But, I didn't realize you could use such foul language. Putting an asterisk or two in doesn't do a lot to negate the filth. I'm surprised it's allowed, even of they do let people spew hatred in the name of religion, like ernest said they did.
Oh Im thinking I missed what youre refering too?
Sorry guess Im a pratical person ,if its wrong ,sure do something about it.
Ok. That was my bad. I just went back to look. I expanded that part of it in my mind. I consider the way he was speaking offensive, but he didn't say everything I thought he did. I was a little too fretted when I was reading it. Anyway, it was up to the person he was speaking to to make the call of whether to report them or not.
And what good would someone find in the Holocause? Was there a grain of goodness in that? So many people followed a crazy "Fuhror." Ugh! Some things truly don't have any redeeming quality if it means intentionally harming and murdering fellow humans!
You describe the condition of the church today fairly well. It is sad that there are so many "religious" people today that fill the church pews every Sunday. It is unfortunate that there are few who actually live out their calling, to love the Lord your God first and then each other as yourself. We who live the calling are saddened by what we see going on, but we also know that we can do the one thing that is most important to win this battle above all of our opinion giving and chatter, and that is to PRAY for the church and for our people. I refuse to allow myself to lay my faith aside and just let things happen. That is why I am now engaging in more time in the bible and helping people to know what it is that we are actually supposed to be doing to be saved, and leaving my own opinion to the side. I hope you are encouraged today to seek the Lord and find a renewed vision of what He is really about. If you would like to chat, you can just reply to this and I would love to talk more about things that are of interest to you regarding the Christian faith.
Uh, in the first part, you provided an opinion. In the second part, you follow up with actions on your previous opinion as a direct cause and effect.
So, you can't really say you'll be leaving your opinion to the side because evangelizing your religion is fueled by your opinion.
Really? I thought it more of an observation of logical fallacy.
LOL! that is indeed a good answer! But it is still just what you think thus your opinion that you made an observation of logical fallacy
Fair enough. Could you provide your opinion on the follow up statement?
"That is why I am now engaging..."
That would appear to be evidence of an admittance of basing the action on the opinion, don't you think?
Possible and definitely plausible I agree, but if I were Xhosan I would say she is getting married. So it would only be my opinion based on my cultural background and my education. In some cultures it is extremely rude to say thank you after a meal and polite to burp. Similar to the translatable statement you are referring to. Depends how you read it and that is how you understand and how I understand it and that forms the basis of our opinions. Other people think she is getting married
Possible and definitely plausible I agree, but if I were Xhosan I would say she is getting married. So it would only be my opinion based on my cultural background and my education. In some cultures it is extremely rude to say thank you after a meal and polite to burp. Similar to the translatable statement you are referring to. Depends how you read it and that is how you understand and how I understand it and that forms the basis of our opinions. Other people think she is getting married
Some people accept neither love or hate and this is a sad situation of soul.
If we show love, they say it doesnt exist or they don't recognize it at all.
If we show hate, they quickly jump on board and ridicule for that.
Yet they are of a higher morality, being quick themselves to hate and slow to love.
Atheists should realize ya reap what ya sow.
Cool. Logic and reason. What a thing to reap.
As to your statement, there is no love shown in the fundamentalist view. This thread was started after the horror of reading your hate filled posts toward homosexuals. Not sure where the love was there.
I agree that there's enough holier than thou attitudes here to fill a stadium; but I can put hatefulness into perspective when it is the opinion of the individual, not when it as presented as the word of a god and supported by others as truth. It's not truth. And never will be. That behavior degrades the very idea of God.
there was no hate in my post.
show me the hate.
Love for all ; hatred for none; only the wrong concepts should be hated not the individual persons.
Please tell me you aren't serious. You honestly don't see hatred and homo phobia in any of your posts on that other thread? You aren't that blind. No body is.
I don't need to go to another thread to cut and paste. You know exactly where we had the conversation. You know everything you said to proud lib.
This thread was started to find out why others within your faith didn't speak out against this hatred that you bandy about in the name of your religion. I got my answers.
This game you are playing serves no purpose.
and still you provide no evidence.
i am sure you have your answers just like you perceived the hate.
maybe you should just apologize instead of this game you are playing.
Sure. Once you apologize to the person you insulted, I will apologize profusely for misjudging you.
But your hate speech will not be copied and pasted.
how can i see where i have insulted somebody if you don't show me where?
Nobody else has piped up to say the same as you and i am in the dark about this.. so for the 11th time - prove yourself or i will just think you are a nut bar.
How about this post as an example?
Btw, yes, others have piped up about that.
brotheryochanan does not come across as being anything close to 'hateful'
I see him as being a straight shooting well adjusted individual, plays well with others,but will stand and be accountable if the occassion rises.
Statements such as those do not foster peace and goodwill either -IMO
Its just a tool they want to use against me. Lies are part of their criteria and is okay for THEM to do. I'm flattered. The ungodly will always persecute those in right standing with God. Its been a pattern since Cain and Abel.
For them, God, at the proper time, gave his life in a most humiliating and humble way, that they may be saved and turn from useless lives, self centered and destructive, unto the way of the living God, fostering truth, and raising up citizens for life eternal.
Thank you Sis
Peace, In Him
I would agree.
That is, I agree you would relate to him.
We already did that. You call it love, though.
As for the words of Jesus Goes>
Luke 5:31, 32 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Mark 8:38 (KJV)
Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
John 12:47-48 (KJV)
And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
John 14:23-24 (KJV)
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.
Matthew 4:10 NIV
Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' " ( this proves zues to be nothing accept dead and yes I am greater than zues I am alive, breathing person in a real relationship w/ God through Jesus Christ redeeming me and the whole world from the results of sin.
Zues will not be in heaven- this is a FALSE god and God has commanded nothing out of it but has commissioned us and called all to come to him & receive our salvation.
In Job 38:31 "Can you bind the beautiful Pleiades? Can you loose the cords of Orion? (ref Is 58 also to see that cords, bands, being bound is all evil and not God's will for us!
as God was answering Job- God was declaring that He has all power to do anything , declaring he made the earth and all that is on it and he is in the one & only one that can intervene /stop/save us from and He has the power to bind/stop and also to loose bands & cords from all works of darkness including witchcraft, rain,floods,waters (WhenJesus calmed the storm, God is the only one that can give you true and genuine victory and salvation.)"Can you bind the beautiful Pleiades? Can you loose the cords of Orion (Greek Mythology/Hellenism/ witchcraft)?) Seeing that zues is in the mix of greek mythology this is God's view of Greek myths they have no power he is the creator. Read the whole chapter of Job 38, Amos 5 & the rest of the verses that declares God all powerful and will intercede for us in the name of Jesus.
<< Amos 5:8 >> (he who made the Pleiades and Orion, who turns blackness into dawn and darkens day into night, who calls for the waters of the sea and pours them out over the face of the land--the LORD is his name--
Back to Jesus keeping in my mind thoughts and actions the words of Jesus.
Matthew 4:7 NIV
Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.' " (this is a warning to obey God)
Jesus showed His love through delivering the people from sicknesses, demons, lies, and many got offended at the word of God he spoke from his mouth.
Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. (Because they heeded to his warning)
32For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.
(To Repent = to stop sining/turned away from because they was informed/warned that not God's way and it will lead to your destruction)
Now hating people is different than warning them for their own good and salvation, to avoid destruction and problems that God wants to save them from. The hate that some christians do that is truly hatred & sin is not warning them in love- or because they love them like Jesus and wanted them to be delivered- but they in error say God hates you, and keep the hell speech as the main message & don't even touch the subject of love, repentance, Jesus forgives and saves! Now this is wrong and all christians doing it this way need to read what God's word says, because by reading/ hearing the word of God it will convict us of sin for the result of correction and a better life and relationship with A Christ. In a constant growing state as God prunes us from more and more evil- thus using the word of God as a mirror of correcting us - not condemning us and saying we are nothing.
God says we are so valuable & worth a lot and this is why he tells us how to reap life instead of death read ezekiel 3 and it also teaches to warn of there coming destruction or we will be guilty of there blood when they die in that sin!
I 'll stop here God bless you!
read Luke 10 in memory of Jesus words.
Jesus Sends Out the Seventy-Two
1 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two[a] others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go. 2 He told them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field. 3 Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves. 4 Do not take a purse or bag or sandals; and do not greet anyone on the road.
5 “When you enter a house, first say, ‘Peace to this house.’ 6 If someone who promotes peace is there, your peace will rest on them; if not, it will return to you. 7 Stay there, eating and drinking whatever they give you, for the worker deserves his wages. Do not move around from house to house.
8 “When you enter a town and are welcomed, eat what is offered to you. 9 Heal the sick who are there and tell them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’ 10 But when you enter a town and are not welcomed, go into its streets and say, 11 ‘Even the dust of your town we wipe from our feet as a warning to you. Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God has come near.’ 12 I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town.
13 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14 But it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you. 15 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades.[b]
16 “Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”......
28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”
29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”
30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[e] and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’
36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”
37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”
Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”
Jesus tell us to pull the people out of destruction- by warning them is how a the Real God and even real friends would do for a person out of love. If they like it or not they must face the truth about there-self the only one they can truly change and allow God to work through as a living vessel.
John 17 Jesus prays for us>> 13 “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.
Jesus Prays for All Believers
20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.....
If we believed in the word of God that Jesus spoke- we would warn them also for the sake of love to do as God wants and commands, come out of the darkness into the light of Jesus- how can we warn without telling the truth of the coming declared future/ reality of Gods word will completely come to pass as he has declared- we are calling all captives to freedom and repentance as Jesus commands also.
John 13:8 NIV
"No," said Peter, "you shall never wash my feet." Jesus answered, "Unless I wash you, you have no part with me."(Jesus warning to repent and turn from sin and be cleansed by God)
John 21:16 NIV
Again Jesus said, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me?" He answered, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Take care of my sheep."
( a good shepherd warns his flock of danger and the snares of sin)
Mark 8:15 NIV
"Be careful," Jesus warned them. "Watch out for the yeast of the Pharisees and that of Herod."
as to > A little leaven corrupteth the whole lump.> Gal 5:9
Shows how sin corrupts a persons whole life and body-
Matthew 18:9 NIV
And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.
Luke 11:34 NIV
Your eye is the lamp of your body. When your eyes are good, your whole body also is full of light. But when they are bad, your body also is full of darkness.
Proverbs 1:22 NIV
"How long will you simple ones love your simple ways? How long will mockers delight in mockery and fools hate knowledge?
Psalm 1:1 Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked or stand in the way of sinners or sit in the seat of mockers.
Proverbs 1:4 for giving prudence to the simple, knowledge and discretion to the young--
Proverbs 1:21 at the head of the noisy streets she cries out, in the gateways of the city she makes her speech:
Proverbs 1:29 Since they hated knowledge and did not choose to fear the LORD,
Here's some wisdom from proverbs on heeding to waring to save them from destruction that lines up with and doesn't go against the words of Jesus.
Proverbs 1:32 For the waywardness of the simple will kill them, and the complacency of fools will destroy them;
Proverbs 5:12 You will say, "How I hated discipline! How my heart spurned correction!
Proverbs 9:4 "Let all who are simple come in here!" she says to those who lack judgment.
Proverbs 21:24 The proud and arrogant man--"Mocker" is his name; he behaves with overweening pride.
Proverbs 22:3 A prudent man sees danger and takes refuge, but the simple keep going and suffer for it.
Proverbs 4:6 NIV
Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you; love her, and she will watch over you.
Proverbs 9:8 NIV
Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you; rebuke a wise man and he will love you.
Back to Jesus words>>
John 8:12 NIV (another warning)
When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness(sin), but will have the light of life."
John 11:9 NIV
Jesus answered, "Are there not twelve hours of daylight? A man who walks by day will not stumble, for he sees by this world's light.
John 12:35 NIV (another waring)
Then Jesus told them, "You are going to have the light just a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, before darkness overtakes(destroys) you. The man who walks in the dark does not know where he is going.
John 12:36 NIV( another warning)
Put your trust in the light while you have it, so that you may become sons of light." When he had finished speaking, Jesus left and hid himself from them.
About warning the people God created.
2 Chronicles 19:10 NIV
In every case that comes before you from your fellow countrymen who live in the cities--whether bloodshed or other concerns of the law, commands, decrees or ordinances--you are to warn them not to sin against the LORD; otherwise his wrath will come on you and your brothers. Do this, and you will not sin.
Ezekiel 33:6 NIV
But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet to warn the people and the sword comes and takes the life of one of them, that man will be taken away because of his sin, but I will hold the watchman accountable for his blood.'
Luke 16:28 NIV
for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
2 Timothy 2:14 NIV
[A Workman Approved by God] Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.
Ezekiel 3:17 NIV
"Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; so hear the word I speak and give them warning from me.
John 10:3 NIV
The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
1 Corinthians 4:14 NIV
I am not writing this to shame you, but to warn you, as my dear children.
Galatians 5:21 NIV
and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Proverbs 16:20 NIV
Whoever gives heed to instruction prospers, and blessed is he who trusts in the LORD.
Ecclesiastes 7:5 NIV
It is better to heed a wise man's rebuke than to listen to the song of fools.
Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
He refused to live in sin and they mocked him and so forth and would not listen to the warning that came from God & were destroyed in a flood that God wanted to deliver them from.
Jesus spoke far ahead of his time relating to us what life would just prior to his coming. He says in Matt. 24:37-38: “But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. “For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,” (Gen.6-7).
(In Matt 11 Jesus firmly warns and rebukes them of there coming destruction on judgement day)
I rest my case now and stand on the truth and promises of God. I had to be warned before to and learn the ways of God- and I am still learning. I need all truth along with rebukes and warnings from God so that I may walk in wisdom. So for your sake we warn you and love you just as God has with us for our own good and well being, above all else to honor God!!
God bless you all!!
I know- I could of done a page out of that info. But I did make a point in that too long response
Not all Christians behave badly. Many have gotten a bad reputation because of certain publicized churches that are misleading their "flock". Many people don't stand up because they are afraid, what if they are wrong? It's a fear-driven behavior. If a preacher says it, they normally will take their word over their own.
It's hurtful, but many people just don't know what to say. I simply remind people that the Bible was written during a time when society was different. If a woman cheated on her husband she was killed. If the church didn't like you, you were crucified publicly or even physically. As society evolved, the Bible did not. It's all in context and representation. They think they are following the word of God, but they are forgetting that God loved to say stories for them to learn from. Too many people take it literally.
You're right about not all Christians act badly.
Sure their are pastors & people leading people astray.
God has left us responsible to study the word of God & teach it correctly.
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.>2 Tim 2:15
I don't agree that the ones that are being taught wrong are afraid/ in fear. I think that they just don't know the word of or the power of God.
Dear friends, you already know these things. So be on your guard not to be carried away by the deception of people who have no principles. Then you won't fall from your firm position.> 2 Pet 3:17
Our firm position is to be in Christ, our revelation of Christ, the power we have been given in Christ, & what Christ has commissioned us to do- take this Gospel of Jesus Christ to all four corners of the earth.
When someone comes to you telling about another Jesus whom we didn't tell you about, you're willing to put up with it. When you receive a spirit that is different from the Spirit you received earlier, you're also willing to put up with that. When someone tells you good news that is different from the Good News you already accepted, you're willing to put up with that too.> 2 cor 11:4
Dear friends, don't believe all people who say that they have the Spirit. Instead, test them. See whether the spirit they have is from God, because there are many false prophets in the world.> 1 John 1:4
We error not because the bible was written in another time period/society but for the reason the bible says.
Jesus said to them, "Aren't you mistaken because you don't know the Scriptures or God's power?> Mark 12:24
The bit you mention about the old testament laws and such once again do we not know the word of God or of God's power? Do we not know what Jesus came for and the power of God given to those that walk in his spirit?
Did we forget about the 10 commandment - thou shalt not murder? Did we forget about the new covenant? God gave us a better covenant and that meant those old laws that had no mercy in them are now covered by the mercy and grace we have received because of and through Jesus.
Jesus didn't condone old testament ways of no mercy.
We have the old testament is a picture of our warfare that is not to be done in the physical - as in fighting/war/murder. It shows us how to fight now in the spiritual realm -as in now we how power & authority over the enemy/satan in the name of Jesus, we do battle now through prayer, praise and interceding- ALL in the name of Jesus! They did not have that name to pray in before that's how they took it into there own hands and that's why they had to sacrifice animals for the forgiveness of there sins.
They had no power over there enemy unless God stepped in and helped them defeat there enemies. God caused there enemies to slaughter each other at times with them having to do anything. They way they defeated there enemies and wiped them out before now we can do the same thing-BUT it will inflicted/overpower satan and his demons because Jesus defeated satan. We learn in the new testament that our enemy is not flesh and blood. Do you think they knew that before Jesus? They were just doing as God commanded until Jesus.I'd pull out some scriptures on all this but a simple search will tell you and lead you to what God has said about the new covenant he made with us through Jesus. New promises, the ability to overcome it all in the name of Jesus. we our joint heirs w/ Christ on & on. Do we even know what God has promised us? If not we are the ones missing out & possibly living a defeated life without power, wisdom and God's spirit leading us. Also Jesus told us of the Holy Spirit and how we have a right to have it, ask for it, and by that spirit of God/Jesus we can be lead in all truth. The Holy Spirit is our comforter, will remind us of all things, and by the Holy Spirit is how people can & have the ability to even come to Jesus and say Jesus is my Lord. Do we know what God has placed in front of us to overcome in this life?? This is all so we can do what he has called us to do! The different parts of the body Of Christ working together in the same spirit of Christ doing different stuff all for the same goal- spreading the gospel of Jesus to a dying world- setting the captives free so they can live & not die declaring how good are God is!! The love of God is what draws/leads/ makes people want God! It is because he is so good and merciful!
God did love stories and Jesus used parables- BUT the rest is literal always remembering to keep it in context and taking into consideration what God has promised and that he is faithful!! Always remember the new covenant, the power God offers and gives us through Jesus- His Holy Spirit- Bible prophecy is real and what's so cool about bible prophecy is that in revelation it tell us that Jesus is the spirit of prophecy!
Sometimes we think we know every thing but haven't even got a clue that the bible/ and God's knowledge never ends, Never will you be able to say you know enough about God or reached the end of the wisdom of God. It takes His spirit to even make/allow us to go into his knowledge deeper. God's word is alive!!!
And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.rev 19:10.
Warning people and hating them is still different and people mistake one for another because noone ever feels great being condemned or warned to confess/repent and turn to God for your life. They both have different results condemnation tells you how wrong you are and leaves you there without offering to help you, but is sent from the enemy to make you worse. Now to be warned and feel convicted is to realize" Hey I do that & yes it's wrong & God doesn't want it holding me back/down anymore" God help me to get rid of this sin and weight so I can be free" Jesus died for our freedom, salvation and deliverance! Not to say we are nothing and he will and has done nothing for us! read what I left above also it will clarify more on God's people giving warning instead of condemning. People don't know there bibles at all!!
God bless you
Sorry about the length but their is too much said just to answer with a short response. Too many subjects are brought up within certain statements. I can't just argue but I have to give details. Or who would be able to understand why I don't agree or what the bible says!
Christians speak against the corruption and self-righteousness,and evil of the world,which is why it is hated.
No, religionists tell lies, distort reality and don't know the difference between reality and fantasy.
Logic plays no part in religion, it is simply a belief in fairies. Nasty vicious fairies at that.
Psychology 101 Love is not conditional.
You can be loved if... is not love. All religious love has that if, so it is not love at all.
A simple children's book on transactional analysis makes it plain as day.
"I'm OK your OK" is the title, not "I'm OK, you can be OK if...
If you had just a little bit of knowledge or at lease as much as the children do you would be able to see beyond the end of your nose.But, they see more than you do.
you're kidding right? Religion IS the epitome of self righteousness.
Religion is....but Christianity is not a self agenda.You are a fine example of what ignorance of life really means.
So you are a christian.
Geeze I wonder how embarrassed that makes christians here feel?
I would say that most are ,but not for me.....but for you.
This is your jungle and everything in it is none-Christian.A poll would be on your side.
So that can only mean that the christians here are not real christians I guess?
It must be harder than for a kid in an ice cream store. So many flavours to choose from.
Such is the spice of life
And I in no shape or form support the nutty flavoured ones! or bizzare combo's...( bacon flavoured ice-cream)
Vanilla, Run and raisin, dark chocolate,...I like bacon, but not in my ice cream,
The list of christian religions is exhaustive, with some very interesting flavours indeed!
You don't really need a list of them though, and I have only so much bandwidth ya know!
Did you mean Rum(?) I'm sure ya did ,lol ,but then since Raisin is full of healthy fibre ,ya could have reinvented a whole new flavour right there ...
Ahem, yep but the concept (of many religions)to me is not as shocking as it seems to be for any non-believers.
Of course some are ludicris ,and some way out left field and some (perhaps the worst) use educated people to push their godly agenda's -when theres absolutely nothing Godly about them.
I detest especially any religion who use their position to manipulate and brainwash ,like many early missionaries for example and todays pampered hierachy in the Vatican,and the Church of England. I am sure there are more.Hmm propped up by Politics
However ,humans are a varied bunch-different doctors ,different mechanics, different teachers, different-different
It is reasonable to accept that Christians will be different too.
Ludicrous is the operative word here, we have all these versions of the same myth fer gawds sake!
Rewritten myth after re written myth since the times of ra.
That tells me men must have myths that is all.
The next logical question would be.......why?
Like anything else, there is a wide spectrum of "Christians" in this world. Some Christians are saintly, while others are embarrassingly pathetic, as you beautifully pointed out. For me, the problem is some Christian's insecurity. The more insecure they are, the more likely that they insist that Jesus is the ONLY way to salvation. How they behave in this world reminds me of the Pharisees in Jesus' time: utter paranoia and grotesque self-righteousness.
Jesus said himself He was the only way you genius...
No, Jesus didn't. John's Gospel said that Jesus said. There's a huge difference between the two. Besides, Jesus is the ONLY way to God for those who believe. I'm glad that you follow Jesus. Good for you.
Discrediting John's account?
Lets hear your basis. Maybe you don't believe any of it?
And unfortunately stating he didn't is absurd because there is at least a recorded account stating he did. But NO RECORDED ACCOUNT stating anything otherwise.
No accounts of Jesus saying different.
That would make your imagination what you base your conclusion on about what Jesus did not say.
Please visit my hub pages and read: 1) FAQ on the Bible, and 2) Jesus' Identity. I hold two master's degrees in Religious Studies. I am trained in: 1) redaction criticism, 2) rhetorical criticism, and 3) form criticism. If you don't know what these disciplines are, you really can't talk to me, pal.
Welcome to Hubpages and buckle up ,it promises to be a bumpy ride
What does that mean exactly? It can't really be an education because there is nothing to provide an education other than a set of scriptures, which is available to anyone. Since religions are largely fantasy, what use could it be to anyone?
It's like saying one has a Phd in Unicornism or a Doctorate in Leprechaunology.
I'll look through my qualifications.... I may have one of them!
It's similar to a study in "Theoretical" or "Historical" studies. I know a few people who are studying it. Their classes are mostly involved with the history of religion and the why the people believed it then and now. *Shrug*
One of my friend, who doesn't have a HP account so I won't use their name, let me sit in on one of the classes he was teaching (I was job shadowing because I was considering becoming a college professor). The class went much like any other class. The subject material wasn't much different than a history class on social behaviors, except it put key emphasis on society's rules.
-Explains what the religion(s) believe in depth.
-Explains how it affected society during that time.
After those two key objectives, they moved on to the other portion of the class, they had to justify the "movements" made, including the crusades, and then they had to say why it was horrible. It was actually a really interesting class.
It also touched on mythological creatures and why people put so much emphasis on them, but I couldn't go to the next class (part 2) because I wasn't signed up for the course.
Thanks for the explanation, I appreciate that. I'm wondering if the classes were based on rational and critical thought or were they meant to further and solidify the beliefs of the students attending.
For example, did they touch on the subject of indoctrination when discussing why people believed?
It was based on both. He was teaching both sides of the story, even a third version. After each segment, the students were allowed to ask questions or make statements. He showed the class that even religion has more than one side to it.
That word is too kind. This borders on the pathetic and irresponsible. No decent person should stand by and pretend it isn't wrong.
Everyone argues. And it gets heated at times, but to let these hate filled speeches some are making go unchallenged is too disappointing not to comment on.
Very original. Never been called that one before.
The only thing that needs to be known about believers is what they teach/preach.
Do as I say, Not as I do. Nothing more needs to be said.
Sir Dent, I have come to believe that you are a kind and decent person. If you accept this mentality as the will of the god you follow, you are being led down a sad path.
I've always chalked it up to the fact that wild people need a wild religion, but now that I have been faced head on by the beliefs being taught within that branch of Christianity, I am truly sickened by the hatred. There is nothing of the mentality or the teachings of Jesus contained in it.
Run away and find a path that suits the goodness in you. They will only taint it until you've lost all compassion and won't even remember it ever existed.
Pleas don't group us not all are alike please some are mis informed
There ya go! A reply. it's because they will allow any type of abuse and even justify it rather than admit the truth of the abuse, or even see it.
Often the abuse is just their perception of what is in all reality, purported truths. Words that are hard to hear.
Of course if a child while learning keeps thinking that 2 + 2 = 5 after repeated teachings, the parent resorts to another method of saying the same thing in hopes this other angle leads to enlightenment.
But each christian will totally embrace the new convert with joy overflowing and the atheist will be there to destroy. Now that's abuse.
Do not mistake the conviction of Gods holy spirit for hate speech.
Atheists are not on earth to destroy anyone. They challenge people to use their heads about their faith, really. They are "adversaries" to organized religion, but they may have more spirit than the all the fundamentalists put together.
The better way to teach children that 2 +2+4 and not 5 is to let them figure it out with basic counting out...to discover the truth for themselves by using their own intelligence. Children need room to discover the world on their own terms. They are more likely to appreciate and respect the (natural) world that way...and if that mindset is reinforced by parents and family doing the same, they will grow to be balanced adults. The best way to serve the Creator of the universe, who has given us the brains we have to think with...is to use those brains...our own..not others'.
That may be a fine generalization but here on hubpages we have atheists who are not challenged to use their heads about their faith, they parrot the same old stuff over and over inspite of obvious corrections to their belief. When i said they are here to destroy that is exactly what i meant a conclusion i came to by experience. Call it challenge if you will but seriously do christians need to be challenged about their beliefs? especially when the belief that is supposedly challenging is a step down, not up.
As to the better way to teach children is to let them figure it out... can we use your example with matches... i think not... so as your generalizations are good and useful they do not encompass the whole spectrum. As this reality doctrine is useful it also does not encompass the whole spectrum. When i did not realize that God was in everything i had a certain respect for the natural world.. since God.. my respect has increased 100 fold, but thats just my experience.
Not sure what you meant by using our brains to serve the creator of the universe means. I often have noted that God prefers christians listen to Him first before using our brains and ya can't really judge people because they are okay with a belief in christianity that doesn't make sense to you. As i have said before, God isn't all about 100% correct interpretation of the scriptures as he is all about 100% relationship with Him. Does every person acquainted with math know all about math? Is every archeologist "up" on every aspect of archeology.. Much learning is often dependent upon the time one spends on learning. Indeed there are many more facets to christian understanding that we can fathom. Shall i compare the knowledge that Herbert W Armstrong had about God to myself? Obviously not.
Or maybe there are a lot like me who have seen so much garbage in the religious forums here that we choose not to enter them at all, or at most only rarely.
My guess (based on what I have seen in the forums so far) is that there is probably nothing I can say that will change the mind of someone who believes differently from the way I do; in fact, most arguments I have seen have only hardened each side against each other. But I hope that the things I do may allow some people the opportunity to adjust their thinking about Christians-in-general into a more positive direction.
I realize that this place abounds with disagreements. At times, I think that is why we are all here. But when a person claiming affiliation with the same name you use degrades the entire point of the message it boggles my mind that there are those who post 'well said' or 'amen'
It eggs the mentality on. It's wrong on every level of decency. Someone wrote once to the effect of ' bad things happen because good people don't stand up against it'. My question is, where are the good people in the ranks of the fundamentalists?
Your answer is in the question itself
there aren't any
if they were good they wouldn't be fundies in the first place
I don't know. I honestly believe that most people are basically good. I think many within the fundamentalist ranks are simply blinded and lazy. They'd rather have someone tell them what to think, than think for themselves.
Someone needs to grab those who seek to lead this hateful charge by the collar and shake some sense into them. And those too weak to think this through and recognize the madness should not be given quarter either. It needs to stop.
I stand by what I say about fundies, your more normal mainstream type religious person is usually a lot more humble and tastefully understated and are as such not fundies. It is my observation that fundamentalism takes to the extreme this effect religion has of creating 'us' versus 'them' division in peoples mentality. In religious terms this is how the devil conquers the religious, divide and conquer. This us and them divide is a fool proof plan for any devil or devils to cause misery and suffering. No fundie can be called decent because they do this job of evil, creating division, to the furthest extreme possible. I have no patience for those sorts of people. For the humble religious person, their belief in God is a personal matter, not to be flaunted publicly and are likely to do exactly what you have done, and question what they feel is hateful in emotion. You are no fundie by my reckoning, just an inquisitive soul searching for a greater sense of what love is and how to feel it deeper I doubt I will ever see such as yourself post that this or that religion is better then the others
Well, I've always been anti religion. Just never called it that until recently. Everything in life is cause for reflection. I guess the Bible is a part of it, but only in as much as it relates to our world and our need to find a way to function as a peaceful society. There isn't much left that relates, except for the philosophy of Jesus; and even that needs to be thinned down to what relates to the modern world.
I do hope you're wrong about the fundies. That's a whole lot of people labeled as bad. I don't want to imagine that many so far removed from the ability to care for others. I realize our society has gravitated toward selfishness and intolerance for the rights of others, but it can gravitate back if people stop to think.
I get the same sense from "just_curious."
I agree that the religions seem too interested in causing division. Personally, I believe that the survival of our species, and the freedoms we have here in the US, depends on our unity or spirit as human beings. Why is it that the Christians of MLK's church were able to inspire the Civil Rights marches in the 1960s? Because they united in peace with one another...in a common spirit of love and goodness. We need more of that. A person's spirit is more important than which religion they follow or their gender identity....our spirit as humans needs to be first and foremost ...that is what will save our world! The political is also personal and spiritual...it all connects..part of the web of life. Being kind and respecting the human rights of our neighbors benefits us....it's all connected...what we sow in goodness we will also reap...
I agree with you Seafarer Mama! You are so right on!
I would like to be counted among the very tiny number. I don't agree with hate filled speech, no matter who it's coming from, and I get pissed off (yup, that's what I said) when people play the eternal damnation card, the homos are out because God said so card, and the "it's only for your own good" card.
If you clearly state what you believe and someone chooses to disagree with you, be an adult and move on. While you may be a Christian, you are not Christ, and while you may interpret His words to mean that you should share the gospel with everyone you encounter, sharing it ought to end at sharing it - not threatening with it. I've said before in these forums, and I'll say it again...It is no more right to beat people with Scripture than it is to beat them with your fists. When your words become hate filled, you are NOT being Christlike. Period.
Jesus saves. We do not. Get over the God complex. Follow Him and quit trying to BE Him.
You are most definitely part of the tiny minority that has earned my respect.
"It is no more right to beat people with Scripture than it is to beat them with your fists."
hey there motown,.... thats a statement i can say a very loud amen to!!!
i think those of us who, like you, realize that our lives as we lead them may be the only "bible" that some read,... we belong to waht i jokingly referr to as the "church of the holy java",... meaning,... we woke up and smelled the coffee,.... and didnt like the thought of having it poured down our gullets or doing the same to others.
just a thought,.... coffee instead of wine,... caffine comunion,... (i know, my priest is gona give me 10 hail marys for this,... when he stops laughing too)
I could totally live with coffee during communion...lol
Freckles loooorrve great coffee, Arabica beans
my friend and i laughingly want to start a coffee party in polltics,... for all those dissafected pissed off average americans who refuse to drink the tea(koolaid),... we all woke up and smelled the coffe long ago,.. and we need leadership that drink coffee rather than tea-party koolaid,.... yea, were both republicans,.. and were not very happy bout that right now. ha!
Funnily enough I was raised on tea ,hot tea ,milk and sugar (The English style)
My first cup of coffe was that creamy stuff squirted out of a tube :lo:..and my first reaction
20 yrs later I became I Barista and learned all about Arabica beans -and I am now a confirmed Coffee-holic
I suspect your post was however more Intellectual ,but Id be happy to come and brew the best coffee out there while you all discuss tea...
absolutely! just no tea,... and positively no tea bagging!,... i just want to scream every time some well meaning very enthusiastic blue haired lady gets up and starts going on about "tea bagging" her senator!
could not one single person have googled this term before using it as a national campaign slogan???????
you know the next thing these political tone-deaf idiots are going to come up with?... bet my wiskey money the'll start a national campaign to send fans to your elected officials,...."angry about how washingon blows all our hard earned tax dollars?... show your representative how angry you are,.. mail him or her a fan (purchased here at our web site for just 9.95,.... or 2 for 14.95),.... be the fisrt among your conservative friends to blow your senator,.... its not just for interns any more!"
who am i kidding,... you know some two bit nit-whit is already dreaming this up in some tea-party office in BFE,... hells bells,.... maybe they can get joe the plumber or monica lewinski to be the national spokes person,.. i hear they both specialize in plumbing!
kinda off subject arent i?! ha!
religious discusions are usualy a drag,... theres no arguing with a concrete mind in the same way that there is no reading a closed book.
and i must say i agree compleetly that hate speach and intentionaly inflamitory remarks are not only un called for but only serve to demonstrate the ignorance and insecurities of those who would make them,.... i most usualy do not let them slide in my pressance,... on line or otherwise.... i call a spaid a spaid.
Great p;ost. I love it!
Are you a fan of Gary Larsen's "Far Side" cartoons? When we were dating, my husband gave me an Easter card that depicts Jesus changing decaf coffee into caffinated as one of his "miracles." Cute. :0)
What is wrong with Christians you ask?
The same as is wrong with the rest of society.
As a group we are as diverse as the rest of society.
I bit into a rotten apple once, do I think all apples rotten ? NOPE I don't, but I keep my eays open just in case I get hold of another bad one. I take a good look at it before I accept it as being a good one.
What is wrong with Christians?
I think you have some of the answers here in the replies from believers, with the usual exceptions.
Yes what's wrong with Christians? Lots of unbiblcal fundamentalist ideas. Lots of 'turn or burn sucker' and a lack of respect for those who don't believe in God.
What's wrong with the atheist? A lack of respect for anyone with a belief system?
So many times I've seen the atheist make a post that is designed to wind up the Christian because he thinks he's being funny. The Christian's blood is boiling inside because he's supposed to be all sweetness, loveliness and pretty little flowers, yet his anger is seething. To resolve this internal conflict he responds with some scripture about God's wrath, hoping that the 'uncaged lion' will fight the battle for him. The atheist then launches into the same old tirade composed of all the old stereotypes.
So many intelligent people stay away from this forum because they can see that it's petty pointless 95% of the time. Now and then you may see some gem of inspiration, but the thread gets spoilt by the fundie zealot or the atheist knobhead.
I agree completely. I think sometimes the whole point of the atheist attack is to push you over the edge, so they can point out (unfairly in my opinion) that the whole concept of christianity is built on hatred.
I know the old saying goes we are not our brother's keeper, but there was someone posting such hatred yesterday and claiming it the word of his god (and I don't capitalize the word because whatever he worships could not deserve the time it would take to hold the shift key down) that it caused me to fly a little hot; thinking that there are those who cheer this behavior on.
What is Wrong With the Christians?
They don't believe and do what Jesus did and believed. Jesus never believed in Trinity.
And as you said Christians don't do what Jesus did like healing the sick, raising the dead, turning water into wine (though I'd prefer beer myself, and I'm rather partial to single malts too). If they did these things the World would be a happier place.
Of course which begs the question, if you see Jesus as a great prphet and accept the miracles, including the wine one, why don't Muslim's drink?
Jesus did not drink wine; there is no question of increaing it by Jesus.
Jesus was a Jew and drinking wine is prohibited in Torah.
And the LORD spake unto Aaron, saying:
Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations: (Leviticus 10:9)
Paar, if you are going to comment on Jesus, know who he was first. Matthew 11:18-19 will clear that up. He most certainly did drink wine.
I guess you have never had jewish wine
It's kinda good ya know
And sure, they probably don't drink in the tabernacles but their living rooms seems just fine
Might be time for you to educate yourself a bit more about people outside of your own belief system (just so you can avoid showing such huge ignorance of topics you attempt to make yourself a preacher of)
I think we forget about the fermentation of wine producing alcohol. drunkeness is sternly warned against. The ability for a 'grape juice' or a 'new wine' to make one drunken is moot. Without the fermentation process alcohol is not present.
Jesus turned water into 'new' wine hence the fermentation process is non existent, hence, grape juice, no alcohol...
Why would jesus create alcoholic wine? that could make people more drunk than they already, very possibly, were or, possible again, could become.
Being of Gentile minds i surmise, we hear the word wine and immediately assume alcohol. I just want to remind people that a somewhat lengthy fermentation process is needed to create a wine able to produce drunkeness also i call upon the holy nature of Christ and therefore i lean to the understanding that He created what is equivalent to harmless grape juice.
Paar. Read the verse you quoted again "Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, WHEN ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:"
The keyword is 'when' Don't drink wine when you go into the tabernacle lest at some future occasion one of them went in drunk. Wine is perfectly permissible to the Jew, priesthood and Christian.
God gave us wine because He loves us and wants us to be happy.
paar, I don't know who does your biblical reading or interpretation for you. Jews did drink wine. It is not prohibited in the Torah.
Jesus turned water into wine at the wedding feast at Cana AND drank wine at the Last Supper (when he instituted communion).
LASTLY, Leviticus is a law written EXPRESSLY for the LEVITES - the community of priests. They and their sons were prohibited from drinking wine or strong drink prior to entering the tabernacle to perform their priestly duties NOT always.
Oh dear, not to get on a tangent but this is so erroneous I can't stand it. But.... it looks as thought Motown2Chitown just explained it perfectly.
That response concerning the trinity has absolutely nothing to do with the OP.
Since I have never seen you post in opposition to the type of mentality that pushed me to ask this question, I am left to assume it is the stand of Islam to agree with it.
Any that do not speak out against intolerance borne of hatred on the basest of levels could not follow a religion worthy of being followed.
I don't mean to post harshly. It is simply that I cannot understand the mentality of those who claim a superior knowledge, yet show a lack of understanding of common decency toward all of their fellow human beings. Nor do I care to; past the point of figuring out how to stamp it out.
It is attitudes such as this that cause so much of the grief throughout the world today. Until people stop quoting scripture and start thinking for themselves it won't stop. If there is a God, it would only seem appropriate to use the brains we were given. When a book is used for hatred, it shows the hatred within the heart of the user. Nothing more.
Throwing it off as not having been generated by one's own shortcomings, and posting it as if by the authority of a higher power needs to be opposed as loudly, and as often, as possible; until those who spew it either learn better or, at the least, the weak stop listening and cheering it on.
Your post is valid and Yeshua berated the Pharisees for the same sort of behaviour one sees in forumland.
And that is what I have been unable to wrap my head around. Why are they blind to this? They don't read. They don't think. Someone is handing this insanity to them on a platter and they gulp it down and then vomit it out. Only to belly up to the table again to take their fill. It's tragic.
What is wrong with Christians ?
Could as easly ask What is wrong with "THEM" .
I think that this is what is wrong with US ... Every one of us.
We should always ask ourselves ... What is wrong with ME
I was talking to a Marriage councelor once.
She ask me to take two pieces of paper, and write upon the first, She did such and such ,,, on the other piece of paper, I was to write my responce to her action.
She did such and such .... I then did this
She did such and such .... I then did this
She did such and such .... I then did this
She did such and such .... I then did this
And the list was long .... actualy needed more paper.
Now imagine ...... When we see God, we give these two pieces of paper to Him.
God then takes the piece of paper that reads ; She did such and such, and tears it into tiny pieces and then says ...
NOW ! ... I will read your confession.
When we stand beore our maker, we won't be talking about why we didn't fix the other guy.
Perhaps. But if that's the scenario that plays out, you can rest assured that every time you tucked your head and didn't speak out against injustice, it will be a point of uncomfortable discussion.
None of us are perfect. Sure, it's the responsibility of each person to find the problems within themselves and work them out. And to see that they are no better than the next person. It is also our responsibility, in America, to ensure that no one negates the value of another human being. Once that mentality is allowed to flourish, it will never end.
Negating the value of another person because of differences in sexual orientation, the color of their skin or gender has no place in a free society, in my opinion. To not speak out against it within the ranks of those someone affiliates themselves with lays a heavy burden of proof on that person to show they aren't of the same mentality.
I agree with everything you have posted here.
I'm just saying that we must first evaluate ourselves to the best of our ability before we presume ourselves worthy to be sherrif.
Everybody is not qualified for the job because everyone has their own blind spot.
It just seems to me to be a damned if I do, damned if I don't situation.
It is Ssooo easy to become worse than the thing that we hate.
No, jerami. I cannot agree with that. We all have valid opinions that don't sync. Diversity is good, but there is no good to be found in allowing hate speech.
We all inadvertently hurt the feelings of others every day. No one is perfect. I'm worse than the next person at every turn probably. I'm not perfect by any stretch of anyone's imagination. But you cannot equate foot in mouth to hate.
This mentality is no different from aryan philosophies. No different than the deep south was for a long time. It has no right to claim a place in our society.
I realize the poster who caused me to put up this thread isn't American, but many who post indicating agreement with him are. I find that sad. Our society is better than that.
During the 60s I was watching T.V. and the reporter ask a black preacher what he thought about the KKK being given their time on TV to spout their hate speeches. Did he think that the KKK should be denied TV time?
The preacher said absolutely NOT. Do not deny them their time. That the more time that the KKK was given on TV, the more their crazy opinions were exposed for what it is.
This actually helped the civil rights cause. The more exposure that the KKKs received .... The more obviously ridiculous their concepts became. They were shooting themselves in their own foot.
I do agree with you concerning our need to speak out against any and all hate speech. It should not go unchallenged.
Just saying ... We should be careful as to HOW we hate anything. lest we become absorbed in our OWN kind of HATE.
The air is filled with what we perceive to be self justification.
Self justification is an equal opportunity destroyer.
Hate is hate no matter the flavor.
To hate any one that hates, we become one.
Again ... I agree with YA Just saying to be careful.
edit been cleaning house between coments and now gotta go out and take care of some business. Back in a while
Ok. I get your point. And you're right. I don't hate the person as much as the mentality. I simply think when people don't speak out, the person hurt by the hateful speech is hurt that much more. They should realize that they aren't alone and people understand they have as much right to be who they are as the next person.
You are exactly right. I have benefited from someone speaking up in my defense and it was most apreciated and meeded.
So I do totaly agree with YA!
Exactly, the more we hear believers preach compassion, the more their version of compassion is exposed as crazy.
You are SSssooooo funny and I want Ya to know that I apreciate YA.
I am happiest 'doing' rather than 'talking'.
But its a forum right ,so you talk lol
Or maybe you would just love to impose that idea on them..
Say? Like you just did...
The Christians don't believe and do what Jesus did and believed. Jesus never believed in Trinity; yet the Christians believe in Trinity; that is one of the wrongs they are doing.
I am afraid it is highly unlikely I will ever be converted but I have to say Christianity looks a lot more appealing when good-hearted Christians object to their brothers and sisters using the religion to hurt and oppress others.
I am shocked to see some one writes we should not judge. I gave that as an answer to some one"s question and he blocked my answer claiming it was wrong and it was a negative reply, and I did give the scriptures where it states, we should not judge.
I'm curious as to what comment prompted the question..."What's wrong with the Christians?"
just curious begins here ,that might explain it for you better
Yeah...I read that this was the comment I haven't seen yet.
When someone posts a crazy and slightly evil take on prophesy and calls himself greater than Zeus and the right hand of Jesus; why do you not denounce it but cheer them on?
Where's this post
What is right with them? History has proven them to be delusional, bloodthirsty sheep who follow anyone that can make apocalyptic warnings out of 2000+ year old anti-Roman poetry.
Not saying all Christians are that way(my sister follows the love of Christ), but I study history and this is what it has shown me in regards to world affairs. No proof, just ''faith''.
If we relied on faith to keep our pioneering astronauts safe, they would have boiled 60k feet in the air. Science, the understanding of nature's proven and testable laws, is what makes the world go around.
Yep and if Science never had a creation to define ,we would still be in the dark ,so to speak
For me the greatest Scientist will be the Creator. And I love the Scientific discoveries he reveals to man every second of every single day.
p.s Listen to ya sis ,shes got it going on
Funny how your god seems to be holding back the scientific discovery for a cancer cure and a host of other ailments that kill people each and every day.
Yet, your god revealed Velcro to us.
Why would he do that?
I think you will find that BigPharma is the one holding back the cancer cure, God gave it to us in Genesis when He gave us all the green herbs to eat.... He revealed it, but BigPharma make too much out of junk science to allow God's cures to be used; except by those who can see the bigger picture.
I have a friend who is a doctor treating cancer naturally and who saves 75% of the folk who go to him, and I mean saves for a whole lot longer than the five years life BigPhrma considers successful.
He started off as a white coat, became a surgeon, and then turned to natropathic holistic medicine because (as he said) "He wanted to start curing people, not just treat the symptoms"
Most of His patients come to him when the white coats have written them off and sent them home to die, cut, poisoned and burnt from 'traditional scientific medicine'.
If I mentioned his name, BigPharma would have him closed down.
Yes he is a believer.
God gave us the answers, but the secular world refuses to listen.
Wow, it's just one whopper of a tale after another. But, I suppose you consider it telling the truth, right?
Hilarious, you'll say anything.
Ok you want a perfect world, guess what there isnt one.
Mark I mean Beezle ,all the energy you spend critising my beliefs and how they are myths etc etc is monotonous.
Why not share your wondeful achievements and how they solve the worlds problems.
Because you cant -right, then sit and ....finish ya knitting.
Again, you continue to put words in my mouth, why do you do that?
Terrible behavior. First you make threats to everyone who doesn't share your beliefs and then criticize others for the state of the world, the same state of the world that has been under the rule of your beliefs these past many centuries. Hilarious.
Now that is a good point!
Although velcro is useful, the cancer cure would seem to take precedence!
God gave me cancer apparently, because I don't believe in him, but then I had to rely on earthly medical practices to fix me up cos I don't believe in god.
My highly religious friend used god as a cure for his cancer.
His family provided this as proof of god.
He was dead in 6 weeks without medical help. Got taken home, lucky sod!
Disease affects everyone.
Sin corrupted the whole world.
That's how sin works.
Cancer destroyed my mother ,not God.
Who are you or anyone to say I wont see her again,or thats she's not in Heaven?
Yea I would rather believe, and still have a good life ,then to have a good life,die and find there was more after all
Of course, you know that to be a lie but for some reason you felt compelled to share it with us anyways. Terrible behavior.
Yes, he did, because your own words said that your god reveals discoveries of science, yet your god has not revealed the discovery of a cure for cancer. Yes, your god is responsible.
You also said disease is a result of sin, hence your mom obviously sinned in the eyes of your god if she got cancer.
Impossible, your mom would have never got cancer if she never sinned.
This is all based on your explanations.
Twisted as usual.
Once the seed of sin entered the world, it contimated all life,or ultimately has the potential too.
So yes we are all sinners! for we come from that seed.
Sorry, you're claiming your religious beliefs involving sin are the result of all the problems in the world, you present nothing but contradictions and fabrications...
... and you're calling me twisted?
Hey. I am very curious. I know you're probably in a bit of a mood from being picked on; but do you really believe that? The part about sin being responsible for sickness. I've heard it before, but I honestly didn't think anyone was supposed to take it seriously.
It's a blatant denial of reality and a complete dependence on fantasy and delusion.
Well gee, Beelzedad. I figured that out already. I'm wondering why anyone would think it. Much less post it. I get the stuff about Jesus. I've said some of that myself, but you can't change facts we all know to be facts.
If you don't get the sin and sickness part ,I strongly doubt you get too much about Jesus either.
I mean c'mon!
You guys seem not that interested in learning ,but just the usual vultures dining on the same ole same ole.
I see now why many of the other posters have quit posting to this thread,seems a good idea to me too.
SOME DAY .... somebody will come along with the right answer and EVERY BODY will agree with them.
It Could? happen!
Actually jerami there probably is a right answer. But it can only be one with no contradictions. I haven't found that yet. I am actively looking, as are so many others.
When someone takes two or three key ingredients away from any statement of truth there will apear to be contradictions.
This is true with any subject matter.
I understand that. But no one knows which is true and which isn't. And when people talk about things that just couldn't be true you get to the point where you just throw your hands up in frustration. I think maybe my problem is I'm about as spiritual as a rock.
I understand ! I was once a rock!
Then I got drunk and fell backwards onto a talking, burning bush (Sorta).
Well, I've had my own burning bush. But, not enough of one to make me think the Christians are right. Which is the only reason I've been wandering around this mad house for the last couple of months. I'm more frustrated with the whole thing now than when I walked in here. No one knows anymore than I do, but a lot are postering as if they are experts, on both ends and all the way across the spectrum..I hate to say it, but the atheists are the only ones who make any sense.
They make sense cause .... No they realy don't ....
They are as confused as the next guy.
They know that religion don't make sense such as it has been taught for the last 1650 years.
It seems to me that Most Atheists base their conclusions that there isn't a GOD simply because they don't buy into that which organized religion has been teaching and practising.
It is OK to believe in a God and not believe in any particular church.
Well, of course it's ok to believe in anything. I don't want to believe any more than what I know for sure. I don't know for sure that what I know can be defined as God. It's just something unexplainable. Do you think your 'burning bush' was God?
My burning bush wasn't really a butning bush.
I know you know what I meant but Belz might not have. lol
I am sure that my burning bushes was something of a higher level than I.
A higher power than my self
Exactly, sort of. But not even a power, necessarily. More of a presence that wanted you to know it was there. Benign and benevolent. That's all I know for sure. Sorry, I'm on my way out of here, so I don't care what the peanut gallery thinks of this post. You don't have to answer, if you don't want to.
I'm glad you posted though. If you don't answer I'll assume your experience was about like mine. Makes me feel better thinking maybe someone else knows how irritating it is to know something they can't figure out.
Sorry ... company droped by for a few ...
I think it was a little bit more than that for me.
And can't count the times that I knew what was going to go on tomorrow ..... with my morning coffee.
I could right a book about it but no body is going to believe me.
You really should read posts here more often, Jerami, in order to get a clue about atheists.
It was a serious question. I'm sorry that what I perceive as a valid question causes you to label me a vulture. It was not my intent to fret you.
No, we don't get the sin and sickness part because it is so far fetched from reality. It is one mere step away from complete insanity to believe such things that completely deny reality. No one could possibly be that delusional unless they are mentally unstable.
Learning? You call that learning? Are you serious?
you're right the vultures do not want to learn anything.
Sin causes upset in many areas.
People who are nervous or anxious get stomach ulcers. AIDS is strongly connected to homosexuality, there are a lot of specific diseases with sexuality. Cancer is a depletion of oxygen in the human system. Water is associated with kidney and bladder and fear, hence when frightened, people can pee themselves.
Sin causes guilt which depletes much of the bodies ability to function normally as Joy increases many systems ability to function normally.
Yoga and chinese medicine are a couple of examples of how the body functions.
To totally say that sin does not diminish bodily functions is in complete denial of reality and no one could possibly be that delusional unless they are mentally unstable. (to quote above post)
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You have just described humanity in a nut shell.
Do you understand it now ?
Hardly. It describes the indoctrinated believer, Jerami.
NO Belz you described humanity ... the reason you do not see this is because some people are ate up with it more than others.
You really gotta change your style of posting for me to believe anything of what you post.
kiwi, Science defines new truth ideas and I love it.
I need to correct my first reply. I was meaning to say Science defines new Creation ideas.
It's still wrong, science does no such thing.
Feel free to deny the reality staring you right in your face Beelzedad. That's your choice.
Hilarious. Between the two of us, one of us only describes reality for what it is while the other invokes invisible supernatural entities and all other sorts of magical beings.
In case you hadnt noticed its all about the supernatural to Christians. This is why our hope is so much steadfast than the unsaved persons expectation of hope. While we do not invoke other sorts of magical beings we do believe that the one God, creator of all things. (genesis 1:1) and doer of many many miraculous healings is capable of all things.
Yes, I know, hence the religion is false from the get go.
Hilarious, you do invoke all kinds of magical beings into your faith, which includes your god. Miraculous healings?
Is there a reason you are so quick to judge? Insulting a person's faith is rude. Yes, disagree with them all you like, but what is wrong with being kind about it? Or even remotely polite?
When the blind stumble along eventually they become bitter from banging their foreheads into the wall so very very often.
Tis the ole adage -of a sqeaky wheel gets more attention
I have often wondered the very same thing.
Courtesy and respect is civil dont ya think ?
No, it is not, insulting the person themselves is rude.
That "faith" which you refer is the cause of centuries of violence, death and atrocities, and continues to this day to be the downfall of mankind and society. And, you want me to be polite about those beliefs?
Faith means 'hope in things unseen'
So obviously nothing to do with death ,violence etc.
The people who commit these evil actions may say -Im doing this for God etc etc ,but an intelligent mind who understands that God is Love knows this is contrary to Gods commandments.
Beezel you say I tell lies?
Pot calling the pot black
That would be exactly the same if you threatened me with eternal damnation, or any other biblical scripture and then shifted the burden of responsibility onto your god, because those were his words, not yours.
Actually, any thinking mind that can synthesize words in a book will know that your god can be good but can also be very nasty when things don't go his way. At the very least, I can acknowledge both of those qualities.
My God is more than good.
He is Holy
I think you are speaking about Judgement, and He is God ,His World ,His Wisdom prevails.
Not yours and not mine
That I can agree on.
No, his cruelty and violent nature prevails.
And, you will continue to threaten people with HIS words while shirking the responsibility. Yeah, I get that.
We (this world) is under Gods grace,but it wont always be so the Bible tells us.
Then comes judgement and literally all hell breaks loose ,once again so the Bible tells us.
Believer it ,or not.
Apparently Beezle you dont ,so no need for you to worry and get ya knickers in a twist ie accuse me of nonsense
How can anyone believe such fairy tale nonsense unless they are indoctrinated into one particular religion. Coincidentally, that is exactly what you're arguing about, one particular religion.
Unfortunately, you are mistaken. It was men who choose to use religion as a way to get people to follow them. Politics behind a faith, not the faith itself. Not every member of that faith does violent acts. That is a stereotype... if I insulted your intelligence, would you be offended? By insulting a religion/faith, you are insulting their beliefs, their core to morals and sometimes even their ideology. Which IS insulting them as a person. I understand your anger at the past, but it is what it is. The people who believe it now aren't marching and slaughtering thousands of people. Instead, many of them are trying to improve the lives of other people. Many see it as hope. Would you really want to insult their reason to be hopeful? What is so wrong with wanting more than what they have on Earth?
Yes, sometimes we get religious nuts instead of fruits, but you will find that with everything. The fact is, it's fine for you to disagree, but would you mind saying it in a civil manner? Maybe people would want to listen if you showed a little common courtesy? Like the saying goes, "You'll catch more flies with honey than you will with vinegar".
Excellent post PP !!
Refreshing to read civil ,mature thoughts.
No attacks ,no put downs anywhere!
Couldn't have said it better myself (Ive tried) lol
I also think unfortunately the same robotic negative responses will appear.
Of course, you are insulting the person hence that would be an Ad Hominem Fallacy.
That is not correct, you are not insulting a person when you insult the ideologies they embrace. Ideologies are not arms and legs... or intelligence.
If you embrace communism, can I not criticize communism?
If you embrace the Republican parties platform, can I not criticize that platform?
You may want to familiarize yourself with Logical Fallacies.
"That is not correct, you are not insulting a person when you insult the ideologies they embrace. Ideologies are not arms and legs... or intelligence."
Tell me your definition of intelligence then. Many people believe that logic is a direct link to it, and if you insult their beliefs (which they often derive from their logic and personal faith), it is insulting a part of them. How can you not see that when you say hurtful things to people and imply they are stupid for believing in a power we cannot see, that it is a direct insult to them? Do you really believe you are not affecting anyone's feelings when you post such things or are you simply seeking an argument? I will debate with you if you would like, but I see no reason for you to be so rude to others. Read the posts from everyone else, some of them were clearly offended or felt insulted by you.
"If you embrace communism, can I not criticize communism?"
Criticism is fine, but read what you wrote on this forum, is it criticism or something else? Many would say you were not polite or even civil.
"If you embrace the Republican parties platform, can I not criticize that platform?"
Embracing a political belief is similar to religion in morals, but not in the spiritual sense. Many people feel like religion goes much deeper than politics ever could. But please, criticize and say your thoughts as much as you would like to. I have no problem with your opinions, I simply requested that you would try a different way of wording them so other people won't feel badly. That's all. I apologize if this offends you, but are you just seeking attention from hubbers by simply posting things you know will get a reaction from others? Just curious.
And yet, it isn't a part of them at all nor is logical by any stretch of the imagination. While I understand believers are unable to distinguish those differences, it is still not valid to believe a set of doctrines written centuries ago which is now contained in a single book is somehow a piece of someones body.
If folks here get hurt feelings because others criticize their belief system, that is entirely their personal problem and obviously they don't understand the concepts of debate and discussion.
That's hilarious. You seem to be blissfully ignoring the hate speech uttered by a number of believers here when they threaten nonbelievers with scriptures. Would you call that polite or civil?
As well, I may not be polite or civil when discussing beliefs, but those beliefs are not people, they are just beliefs.
That is entirely irrelevant. Again, if believers are unable to separate themselves from their religious or political beliefs, then they shouldn't be on internet forums discussing them.
There is no need to apologize, you are free to say anything you like about my ideals, beliefs, what have you... it doesn't matter at all. That is the main point of debate and discussion. We just leave out the personal remarks.
And no, I'm not seeking attention, I'm simply pointing out the flaws and fallacies used by believers when they try to validate or show credibility of their beliefs.
Sometimes, I even like to talk about science.
"And yet, it isn't a part of them at all nor is logical by any stretch of the imagination. While I understand believers are unable to distinguish those differences, it is still not valid to believe a set of doctrines written centuries ago which is now contained in a single book is somehow a piece of someones body."
A set of beliefs is part of someone because it is in their mind, and religion is considered to touch the heart and soul... which is part of them. The Bible is poetry, stories and even philosophy added to it. There is nothing wrong with basing your core beliefs on a book. And not all believers are as you make them out to be. It is unfair to stereotype them based on a few examples of mislead people. People can believe whatever they like, such as you can believe that you making statements on what is and is not validate is justified simply because you feel like it.
"If folks here get hurt feelings because others criticize their belief system, that is entirely their personal problem and obviously they don't understand the concepts of debate and discussion."
Debate and discussion is not about repeatedly saying, "Not logical, not logical, not logical"... it's about an open topic backed up by more than opinion (for debate) and hearing both sides without trying to cut it down by saying they are wrong by believing in what is written in a book (for discussion). It's a two-way street, you have to be willing to talk and listen.
"That's hilarious. You seem to be blissfully ignoring the hate speech uttered by a number of believers here when they threaten nonbelievers with scriptures. Would you call that polite or civil?
As well, I may not be polite or civil when discussing beliefs, but those beliefs are not people, they are just beliefs."
You seem to forget that we can message people personally and you would have no idea if I messaged them to speak about it. Which I have done to certain individuals who wished to remained unknown. I didn't message you personally because you seem to be fine with spouting anything publicly. If that is incorrect, feel free to e-mail me.
Also, hate speech is more serious, so I tend to try to get a private conversation with them to discuss it without other people inputting their own definitions and etc. Easier that way.
True, just like there are many other things residing in ones mind but that doesn't make it part of someone. How does a belief written centuries ago by someone else entirely and is shared by billions of people become a part of one person? It simply makes no sense at all.
Religions have been the cause of great atrocities, wars and genocides, too.
So what? It's just a book like billions of other books.
You're joking, right? Of course, your statements now agree with me that those beliefs are not part of a person, but instead part of a book.
Sorry, but comparing religious indoctrination to finding flaws and fallacies are two completely different things.
Where do you see my posts that only say, "Not logical, not logical, not logical"...? I am talking and listening, but if all I'm listening to is ones personal religious beliefs and their hate speech telling me that I'm evil and in league with Satan, what is one to do next?
I'm fine with writing on these forums, thanks. I don't see the point in messaging others.
"True, just like there are many other things residing in ones mind but that doesn't make it part of someone. How does a belief written centuries ago by someone else entirely and is shared by billions of people become a part of one person? It simply makes no sense at all."
It is part of all those people because they take it into themselves. In their mind, because it fits what they believe so well, it becomes a part of them. Sort of like an artist will say art is a part of them, or how writers say writing is a piece of them. Just because others do it, does not mean it can't be apart of someone. You seem to be looking for the physical parts of man. Religion is not about the physical... it doesn't have to be.
"Religions have been the cause of great atrocities, wars and genocides, too."
Actually, if you look back, it was the people using religion as an excuse. A gun is not good or bad, but can be used as either. Same goes with religion.
"So what? It's just a book like billions of other books."
Except for the fact it is the best selling book in the world and people have based their lives dedicating themselves to it.
"You're joking, right? Of course, your statements now agree with me that those beliefs are not part of a person, but instead part of a book."
The book gave people comfort and hope. It gave them a way to view the world differently. They adopted what was WRITTEN in the BOOK. Just because something is in a book, does not mean it can't be part of a person. To say otherwise is to say we have no brain because it is in a book. Lolz. Sorry, had to go with the quickest example... I keep losing my internet connection.
"Sorry, but comparing religious indoctrination to finding flaws and fallacies are two completely different things."
Snappy comeback. , but you seem to be basing it on only one perception, don't you have a wider view than that? I'll go up a level in debate, if you do.
"Where do you see my posts that only say, "Not logical, not logical, not logical"...? I am talking and listening, but if all I'm listening to is ones personal religious beliefs and their hate speech telling me that I'm evil and in league with Satan, what is one to do next?"
Did I misread what you wrote earlier about it being illogical for a person to believe in something that someone else wrote? Where on this forum does it say you're in "league with Satan"? Lolz.
Yes, just like we take any other ideas from books into ourselves. Those ideas are not arms and legs, though. They are ideas in a book.
Then, what you're saying is that those beliefs were already well known to people BEFORE they read the book? Now, you're getting outright silly.
That is entirely different, artists and writers CREATED the art and writings themselves, it came from their minds, they didn't just read it in a book. Bad example.
Religious books are very physical as are the words printed in them.
No, it was the religious ideals that caused those people to do what they did, if you look back. Guns don't teach people to do anything.
That is insanity, but since it was brought on by religious indoctrination, it isn't considered insane.
So do puppies.
Yes, so fantastically and extraordinarily differently, that it had nothing to do with the world at all.
Yes, it does mean it is not part of a person, it is a book, which is not part of a person at all.
And yet, that isn't an example at all. Our brains are actually part of us, fyi. Books are not.
Yes, I may have stated a belief was illogical, but I usually follow up with a reason why.
You would have to go back and research those posts in which believers have me labeled.
Of course, they think I am in league with Satan, but he's my son and is only just misunderstood.
"Yes, just like we take any other ideas from books into ourselves. Those ideas are not arms and legs, though. They are ideas in a book."
By that logic, idealism and words are not part of man at all. Words are used to express thoughts, feelings and ideas. The book was written based on such things, which people can adopt those things into themselves. The book itself does not become a part of them, instead it is the feelings, thoughts and ideas that do. The book is just something that anchors it so they can have some common ground.
-In their mind, because it fits what they believe so well, it becomes a part of them.-
"Then, what you're saying is that those beliefs were already well known to people BEFORE they read the book? Now, you're getting outright silly."
It's not silly. I have often heard believers describe what it was like before they found religion. They knew they were missing something, and it filled the hole. People believe it is wrong to kill, to cheat on their spouse, to steal, society teaches that, and so does the book. People don't know what they are missing in themselves until they find it. Religion isn't the only answer, but it is often the most common.
"That is entirely different, artists and writers CREATED the art and writings themselves, it came from their minds, they didn't just read it in a book. Bad example."
So all those artists who were inspired by the Bible are bad examples? Hm. Writers must learn to read before they can aspire to write, or at least hear other stories. It's simple, the book is a source of inspiration and people believe in it because it gives them a sense of greater being.
"Religious books are very physical as are the words printed in them."
Have you not been paying attention? Books can be burned, destroyed, ruined, but IDEAS that the book inspire are bullet-proof because no one can touch them. Sure, you can change your mind, but that idea, that thought would have been thought and can never be taken away. Especially when it is thought by so many individuals.
"No, it was the religious ideals that caused those people to do what they did, if you look back. Guns don't teach people to do anything."
I have done excessive study on cause and effect on religious wars. Think about it, a King has to rally an army and fast in order to obtain new land. The church was/is the most powerful force at the time because it was the only thing the peasants had to look forward to after such a horrible life. What excuse should he use? They are against the church! Easiest way to get them rallied up for a fight.
"That is insanity, but since it was brought on by religious indoctrination, it isn't considered insane."
I haven't heard you call scientists insane for basing their lives on books. Darwin's book had many scientists dedicate their lives to such research. It's a pursuit of knowledge... even if that knowledge is not in a textbook.
It gave them a way to view the world differently.
"Yes, so fantastically and extraordinarily differently, that it had nothing to do with the world at all."
Yes, that's right. Love, mercy, death, life, greed, passion, and music has nothing to do with the world. (rolls eyes)
"Yes, it does mean it is not part of a person, it is a book, which is not part of a person at all."
I all ready addressed this. If that's your only argument because you haven't grasp the concept of thoughts created by the physical, I feel like this will go nowhere.
"Yes, I may have stated a belief was illogical, but I usually follow up with a reason why.
You would have to go back and research those posts in which believers have me labeled.
Of course, they think I am in league with Satan, but he's my son and is only just misunderstood."
Lovely. Not only are you judgmental towards others for adopting a concept of a greater being, but you also joke about your son being the greatest evil in the religion of Christianity. I swear, you're a squeaky wheel.
Finally, we agree that a book and the words printed there are not part of people. And, whether or not someone adopts those ideas is entirely irrelevant to the fact that a book and its words are not part of a person.
Yes, totally and completely silly.
How could they find religion when they weren't even born yet? Believers are indoctrinated from early childhood and simply don't know any better. They often get confused when discussing topics such as this and make fallacious claims based on their lack of thinking processes.
In other words, they have no intellect in which to think for themselves and must rely on a book to tell them what to do.
People understood and lived by those concepts long before your holy book was even a flicker in someones eye.
Your book also teaches people a lot of nasty concepts, too, like racism, oppression, hatred and murder, to name a few.
Religion isn't an answer at all because believers are indoctrinated to believe it has the answers.
Of course, what does that have to do with anything? The bible is a book with words. You said it yourself, "The book itself does not become a part of them".
So what? None of that supports your argument. People can read Aesops Fables and get inspired. Irrelevant.
That isn't true, ideas can be destroyed and ruined with other ideas.
Yeah, sure you have.
Sorry, I'm confused here, how does that make out religion to be a good thing?
Hilarious, now you equate the indoctrinated beliefs of ONE particular religion to that of scientists dedicating their lives to research. Again, hilarious.
What do those concepts have to do with your bible? Did your bible originate those concepts?
It's going nowhere because you don't understand the concept. If we were to follow your fallacious argument, there would be no such thing as discussion and debate simply because every book in the world would have to follow your logic.
And, you have once again fallaciously stated that I'm being judgmental towards "others" when I am doing no such thing. We are talking about the differences between books and people, are we not?
Sorry, that you have no sense of humor.
"Finally, we agree that a book and the words printed there are not part of people. And, whether or not someone adopts those ideas is entirely irrelevant to the fact that a book and its words are not part of a person."
Wait a minute? Did you think I meant the book was attached to their very being? Lolz. I simply meant this- a religion is more than the words it is based on. Yes, the book is a big part of the ideology, but it is more than that. It is the way it is interpreted by each person, making it their own. A person can say one thing to mean one thing, but someone else hears it and takes it to mean another... do you get what I mean? Just in case, the word, "What" can be seen in many ways. It can be taken as shock, surprise (a lesser form of shock in this case), anger, happiness, etc. Yet, it is just one word. It is the tone in which it is said that conveys what "what" means in each case. Similar to the Bible, but much more then tone is added to it. For example, you can read my words and assume I am upset or angry with you just by reading them, but the truth is, I am often smiling when I am writing. I don't really care enough about this debate to be upset or angry in any way. It's just not important to me. So, the mind can see things that are there, but misinterpret it entirely.
"Yes, totally and completely silly."
To you, it may be silly, but to another, it is the most serious thing in the entire world. It is all about perception and whether or not we are willing to see it through all view points. Have you ever stopped and thought that all sides could be right or all sides could be wrong?
"How could they find religion when they weren't even born yet? Believers are indoctrinated from early childhood and simply don't know any better. They often get confused when discussing topics such as this and make fallacious claims based on their lack of thinking processes."
Just because a person is taught to believe something, doesn't mean they will. I can easily name over a dozen people I personally know who believe entirely different things than what they were raised to believe. I am talking about individuals who did not believe in religion before becoming religious. I suppose I should have specified, but I assumed that "before they found religion" would have been enough. I apologize for not going into greater detail.
"In other words, they have no intellect in which to think for themselves and must rely on a book to tell them what to do."
Everyone relies on something. Some just rely on the book. Now, I haven't seen many people stoning their spouses for adultery lately, have you? The Bible isn't meant to be taken so literally. A lot of it was based on the society at that time.
"People understood and lived by those concepts long before your holy book was even a flicker in someones eye."
My holy book? Are you kidding? I view it as poetry and a work of art.
"Your book also teaches people a lot of nasty concepts, too, like racism, oppression, hatred and murder, to name a few."
Again, at that time it was society's rules... did you know that the Bible was no completed? The stories and books were written by hundreds of people, but only a few were added in by a very selective room. Basically, we don't get the whole story. For the racism part, where do you see that? In the second part of the book, it fights against it. At the time of the story of the "Good Samaritan", Samaritans were discriminated against and labeled awful things. In the story, it painted Samaritans in a good light... are you familiar with the story? It's actually a pretty good read, short, but still good. Now, you have to remember, people weren't always free to write and say what they wanted, and that's why the Bible does not include the full story of Jesus' childhood and several other things, like Adam and Eve's adventures after the Garden... they are really interesting stories. I don't think they were meant to be taken literally, but many do believe that they should be. *Shrug* Difference of opinion.
"Religion isn't an answer at all because believers are indoctrinated to believe it has the answers."
You seem to be so sure of what 'believers' believe, were you part of a strict church or something?
"Of course, what does that have to do with anything? The bible is a book with words. You said it yourself, "The book itself does not become a part of them". So what? None of that supports your argument. People can read Aesops Fables and get inspired. Irrelevant."
All right, let me say this as simply as possible, people e-mailed me because they felt you insulted their intelligence because you claimed their beliefs were illogical and unintelligent to even consider believing. Yet, you assume that because a religion uses a book, that it cannot be part of a person... is that your belief? I am telling you, that people view religion as a part of themselves, yet you continue to fight against their feelings. This debate is irrelevant because it is solely a matter of you denying people their right to adopt a philosophy book as part of themselves. (Please note that just because a book is physical, a person can take those ideas as their own because if a book is written well, anyone can take something from it and make it their own.)
"That isn't true, ideas can be destroyed and ruined with other ideas."
That's not true. An idea can be trumped by another idea, BUT someone else still believes in that idea just the same. Even if they don't tell you so.
-I have done excessive study on cause and effect on religious wars.-
"Yeah, sure you have."
It's nice to know you think so little of my studies simply because we disagree.
-Think about it, a King has to rally an army and fast in order to obtain new land. The church was/is the most powerful force at the time because it was the only thing the peasants had to look forward to after such a horrible life. What excuse should he use? They are against the church! Easiest way to get them rallied up for a fight.-
"Sorry, I'm confused here, how does that make out religion to be a good thing?"
Religion is just there. It is not a bad thing, nor a good thing unless someone takes it to be so. I am simply showing an example of how it is not religion that caused murder, it was the people behind the scenes using it. Just like propaganda was used in non-religious wars to get the people to pick the side the government wanted them to. I'm sure you know what I am talking about, but if not, I will gladly give you book titles and movie clips of them. . Did you know Germany taught their children to hate the Jews during WWII? That way they would not be questioned. Just an example of the propaganda.
"Hilarious, now you equate the indoctrinated beliefs of ONE particular religion to that of scientists dedicating their lives to research. Again, hilarious."
The Bible has inspired more than one religion. Just like Darwin inspired more than one form of research. Just because people will dedicate their lives to something they feel passionate about, does not mean they are insane. Instead, it simply means they have chosen a different path than another.
-Yes, that's right. Love, mercy, death, life, greed, passion, and music has nothing to do with the world.-
"What do those concepts have to do with your bible? Did your bible originate those concepts?"
The Bible has them written on it's pages, which allowed people to read what they all ready felt and thought in a more condensed method to help them to see things more clearly. It's a lot like telling an infant what words mean. Remember, many people who were not wealthy could not read or write at the time, a preacher could say whatever he wanted to the people and claim it was in the Bible. As people educated themselves, religion grew along side society. The concepts were known, but not stated by everyone. It's kind of like a person knows not to take another's belongings, but they never flat out said, "It would be stealing" because they never thought to do it... you know? I can go more in detail than this, but I think you all ready know all of this anyways.
"It's going nowhere because you don't understand the concept. If we were to follow your fallacious argument, there would be no such thing as discussion and debate simply because every book in the world would have to follow your logic."
Then explain the concept if you think my argument is so "fallacious". The reason not every book in the world follows the logic is because not every book causes people to react the same way. I am just telling you what you all ready know, yet seem to reject anyway. Simply put, you do not want to believe a person could feel like a book is part of them. That is not for you to decide, it is for the individual. Just like it is my person decision to keep talking you even though you will fight against every word I say simply because you want to. *Shrug* It happens.
"And, you have once again fallaciously stated that I'm being judgmental towards "others" when I am doing no such thing. We are talking about the differences between books and people, are we not?"
I apologize, but we are not talking about the differences, we are talking about the beliefs that book inspires, which leads to people believing the words in the book.
"Sorry, that you have no sense of humor."
I do have a sense of humor, I just don't view parents labeling their children as "Satan" as humorous. No offense, but it just isn't my taste in comedy.
No, it isn't, and no one has ever shown that. If your gods existed and we all knew it, you might have a point. But, they are nothing but words in a book.
Exactly, in other words, you're saying that the words themselves carry no real meaning unless they are embraced and interpreted by each person to mean something. Again, you're not making any headway to support your argument. Any book can fall under that category.
Strawman fallacy, entirely irrelevant.
Of course, the thinking mind understands it's all ridiculous, but to the indoctrinated mind, it is the most serious thing in the entire world, that's why it's also one of the most dangerous things in the entire world.
I seriously doubt that. When people are indoctrinated into their parents religion, they stay indoctrinated until they understand they are indoctrinated and usually give up religion. There are few if any who were atheist and then 'found religion'.
They rely on it because they are indoctrinated to rely on it.
We have laws now that don't allow you to stone your spouses. Without those laws, believers would have kept stoning their spouses.
So, the bible was written on the society of the time? Is is still that time or is it time to move on beyond those medieval and archaic myths and superstitions?
If that were true, you wouldn't think it the most important thing in the world. But, you do.
That makes no sense at all. What you're saying is that your god decided that "at that time" it was okay to commit those atrocities. Do you see how utterly ridiculous that is?
Yes, a book written by men, just like many other books. No gods were required.
No, but it's a simple matter to read or hear what they believe. These forums alone are full of those beliefs.
That's their problem, not mine. I did nothing to insult them personally, which is the problem you and they seem to be having in understanding.
It isn't a belief, it is a fact.
You are wrong, I am not fighting ones feelings, I am debating their beliefs which they got from a book, just like any other book, just like any other beliefs. This is a very simple concept to understand, yet you fail to get it.
Again, entirely wrong, I am not denying anyone anything. Where would you get that ridiculous notion?
The religion taught and commanded those people to commit those atrocities because it was "at that time" - remember?
Jews? Like in religion? Is that your example?
They haven't chosen anything, they were indoctrinated to believe in their parents insane religion.
Then, they aren't a gods words, are they? Of course, back then, there were no bibles to read until the printing press was invented.
Not true, any book can cause people to react a certain way. You have arbitrarily decided that the bible is a "special book" for you because of the way you react to it. Nonetheless, it is still just a book with words that can be scrutinized, criticized, ridiculed and laughed at just like any other book. Unfortunately, you don't seem to understand that.
You already agreed books are not part of people.
No, I am discussing an issue in which you are dead wrong.
Yes, a book with words. Do you understand yet?
If we go by your logic, no book in the world can be scrutinized or criticized in any way because we have to take into account the way in which someone interprets the words, which might inspire them to believe something and consider the book the most important thing in their lives.
This is a very simple concept to understand, why don't you get it?
Let me put this as simple as possible, you keep saying it is "my book", as if it is my beliefs... when did I ever say it was part of my religion? Stop assuming you know my beliefs because I defend another's. The only reason I even bothered with this is because a friend asked me to. Simply put, this is a favor to a friend who does not want to read anything else that will hurt their feelings. All I really wanted was you to go about debate and discussion in a friendlier manner. Instead, you fight against it, claiming you insulted no one, when people were offended by your words. If you do not believe in their beliefs, fine. If they threaten you to "hell", why does it bother you if you do not believe in it? I would reply to each and every sentence you have written, but my internet keeps failing and then I have to repeatedly write something over and over... in other words, I don't want to say something 20 times for you to read once.
*"Jews" was both a religious status and a race status at the time. According to several history professors at my college, one of them being a survivor of the camps, the term "Jew" in Poland and Germany was two things- Anyone who was part of Judaism and anyone with dark hair and dark eyes with a history of it in their family. According to my teacher, he was a Catholic, but taken anyways because he "looked" like a Jew and could not convince them of otherwise.
I can't believe you still don't get this.
Try instead, explaining to your friend that their beliefs are not part of them as they are beliefs created by other people which were eventually rewritten several times and compiled in a book. Words, written centuries ago have nothing to do with your friend.
Again, that is their own personal problem which they have to come to terms with. They need to learn that debate and discussion does not care about peoples feelings because the debate and discussion is not about their feelings, it is about a book with words in it.
It doesn't matter in the least whether I believe it or not, they are still making threats towards people, which is completely unnacceptable. However, you seem to believe that is okay compared with criticizing a book. It really is astounding.
Sorry, but Jew is not a race.
So what? What does that have to do with this discussion?
Again, you and your "friend" need to take the time to understand the very basic fundamentals of debate and discussion, which clearly you have no idea because you're taking things personally when it is obvious you have chosen to do so with one single book.
You can start by learning the basic logical fallacies, which should give you a foundation to start. Enjoy.
"Sorry, but Jew is not a race."
- According to several history professors at my college, one of them being a survivor of the camps, the term "Jew" in Poland and Germany was two things- Anyone who was part of Judaism and anyone with dark hair and dark eyes with a history of it in their family. According to my teacher, he was a Catholic, but taken anyways because he "looked" like a Jew and could not convince them of otherwise. -
"So what? What does that have to do with this discussion?"
I all ready explained the term, which you cannot discredit because I have proof and an eye-witness account to the term not being exclusive to the religion. If you do not believe me, call up my old professor, I will be happy to give you his e-mail address in order for you to understand what that term meant back then. Also, you asked me about the 'religion example', Jew was not only considered a religion, but a race. I was simply explaining it to you.
Also, why should I tell anyone what to believe? My only motive here was to get someone to use a different tactic in their argument/discussion/debate. It astounds me that you believe I am a fool for not telling someone how to feel about what they consider to be a holy book. It is their life and their views are their own. I am done telling you this, for it is you who are deluding yourself because you believe you know my mind and what I am thinking when I write. You believe that because I defend a religion, that I must be associated with it, but the truth is, I am a religious MUTT. I have my set of beliefs and I actually go to several different religious churches simply because I enjoy hearing the ideas and concepts from another's religion. It is my own personal joy to read and study anything and everything I can get my hands on.
I pursue knowledge and I will never be satisfied with it. I enjoy defending viewpoints, but this has gone on long enough. Truth be told? I understand your concept, but you got off track. Instead of understanding that someone was hurt by your words and claims that they were unintelligent for listening to another's words, you attacked my words by saying it is not possible for a person to feel like the book is apart of them. I am sure we could find over a 1,000 individuals who would attest to the book being part of who they are. Who are we to tell them that the comfort they receive from those words are not real? Who are we to tell them they are foolish for reading and believing in a God they have not seen? We are no one. Our words and thoughts do not matter and if you believe otherwise, it is simply your ego getting in the way. If you want to say more on this matter, on the subject of ego, I would happily speak with you as I find it very interesting, but if you continue to beat the dead horse, then I will have to find someone else to chat with as this has gone from a friendly comment to you believing I do not understand the concept you are conveying... I will not speak to someone who feels like they have won by discrediting a Polish man with the tattoo on his arm to prove it.
You're free to look up the definition of 'race' to see if you can find a religious faction there, you won't. And, you'll also find there are Jews of several "races".
Not sure what that has to do with anything, aren't we discussing the concepts of debate?
Actually, you'll probably find millions of people who will claim their particular scriptures is part of them, too. It is entirely false.
Maybe the comfort they receive is real, but that doesn't mean anything as people find comfort in all sorts of books. So what?
Just as foolish as if they read Aesops Fables and believed animals could talk.
I don't agree with that at all, everything we think, say and do is very important, because that is all there is to life.
But, you really don't understand the concept, hence it is you who is beating that horse.
Lol! That's a good one. But, it would appear you aren't interested in learning anything, specifically the entire concept of debate and discussion. If we were to follow your logic in which it was forbidden to criticize words in a book or the ideas of people, then nothing would ever be discussed. It's really as simple as that.
As I have REPEATEDLY stated, it is fine to criticize all you like, I only asked you to speak in a more civil manner. You just jumped on it saying that it was not hurting anyone when it clearly affected someone otherwise they would have not asked me to speak to you at all!
And, just for your information, if my "debate skills" are up to par with college campus regulations, then maybe you should speak to schools about what they are teaching us.
Oh, and by the way, stating why we are even debating anything at all has everything to do with this discussion... or did you forget my very first post?
By the way, cute example of Aesop fables, unfortunately, not over 5 million people have accepted them as a truth and it is not widely accepted in society as anything but stories. The Bible has been recognized by the state (government) countless times and our government was based on some of it's core principles. History has accepted it, and so has the founding fathers, along with millions of others, as a truth. Whether you do the same is entirely up to you.
Just because it is all their is to life, in your opinion of course as everyone has their own personal beliefs to that matter, does not mean it is true. Simply put, we are born and we die. It does not matter what we say or do because no one gets out of life alive. Think about it this way, just because you are remembered by others, does not mean it matters. If there is nothing after life or before it (for us), then nothing really matters unless we want it to. This is not to say ego is bad, of course. This just means that we have to understand that we are but a speck of dirt on the beach of time. We do not matter, no matter how we sparkle in the light. We are forgotten, lost, and we simply exist.
You claim I do not understand the concept, yet you did not understand my statements at all earlier. I only requested different words to get your point across... why can't you see that?
You keep forgetting that it is their own personal problem that they have been affected by the critique of their religion and beliefs. They need to grow up and deal with it.
Were you ever on a debate club in school or even know what they do? It does not appear so.
Obviously you did not read the link I provided on Logical Fallacies, that would the Appeal to Popularity fallacy.
That would be the Appeal to Authority fallacy.
Of course, you're free to show that the government was based on a religions core principles, if you can.
That would be the Appeal to Belief fallacy.
So far, you are doing little but offering one logical fallacy after another. That is not debate or discussion.
That is not a personal belief, that is an understanding of the world around us that does not include the myths and superstitions of medieval religions.
That would be your religious indoctrination speaking. Being remembered by others, family and friends is all one really has unless they have made some offering to society in which they are remembered.
However, I do understand believers don't consider anything of this world or this life as important at all.
It has nothing to do with ego and everything to do with making a purpose in ones life that doesn't include the myths and superstitions of medieval religions.
Such a bleak outlook on life. I'm quite happy not to share that belief.
Simple, it is because I use the words that are appropriate to the discussion, no more or less relevant. That is the basis of debate and discussion, the concept you still seem to not understand even after I offered links for you to read and suggested you learn about debate and discussion.
Clearly, you ignored that as you have offered nothing but logical fallacies to support your beliefs.
I have been in speech and debate clubs/teams for over seven years. The only difference here, is that a judge is there to time and critique the discussion on their forms. Clearly, the rules have changed from your time, have you ever had a time on a debate team? The rules are very simple- state your point, say why and wait for a response. Then respond to the response from the opponent as clearly and efficiently as you can without insulting them. There are more elaborate rules, of course, but since this is an open-discussion, we don't follow the format and etc. Of course our teams never debated religion as school and religion are separate by law.
You keep telling me what THEY need to do. Why tell me? Why not just flat out say, "If I say things that offend you, it is not my intention" or something like that. You know, civil statements.
Proof that the government used religion and/or the Bible? Sure, pull out some of your money, what does it say on it? "In God We Trust". Is that proof enough? No? How about when presidents and other federal officials put their hand on the Bible to swear in? Does that give you an idea of how the government views the perfectly ordinary book that you find so similar to Aesop's fables? Personally, I would like to see them not use the Bible, as it is my personal belief that the state and the church should be separate, but no one seems to want to mention it as they are being sworn into office. *shrug*
Actually, it is not any indoctrine I am referring to... it is the truth. According to medical science, the chemicals in our brain give us the "will to live", this will, is defined as ego because it makes us believe we should live. It is necessary 'feeling' we have in order to procreate and live on this earth. Without it, we simply die. It's not dark view on life, I actually rather enjoy my time on earth simply because I know it won't be long. Because, really, how long is 100 years? Not long enough. Your friends and family will die out eventually, as will their friends and family, and your name will be forgotten unless you become famous, and even then it is not a guarantee you'll be remembered... many people became famous and then unknown, especially around the Dark Ages.
I wish my friend would jump in on this to defend their own beliefs, but they choose to ignore you as they feel like you are just rude without even bothering to listen to their side.
Exactly, you said it, "without insulting them" which is the point I've been trying to make all along.
So what? That separation does not deny debate or discussion. It simply means one particular theological belief system should not be taught in schools.
Simple, it is already understood by all parties who debate and discuss that whatever they are discussing should not offend anyone. If it does offend, those who are offended shouldn't debate. Again, it is their problem and no one else.
But, that's merely a motto, a favorite saying placed on coins in the mid 1800's - it was not a requirement.
The Constitution does not require officials to swear on the bible, quite the contrary, it is based entirely on secular principles.
Article VI of the Constitution:
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.
Possibly, but notice that has nothing to do with religious beliefs?
They are free to present their argument. However, if they can't handle debate and don't understand that their beliefs can and will be scrutinized and criticized, just like every other belief, then they shouldn't bother. Obviously, that is why they think I am rude.
They FELT insulted, which is the point I was trying to make, but you keep insisting that is their problem. I know what you are going to say, but I simply don't understand why you wouldn't want to avoid hurting anyone's feelings just by putting in a simple sentence explaining that you are not intending to hurt or offend them. Not everyone on these forums understand the flow of your debate tactics and I was simply requesting that you just state that so they understand that your nature is not to offend, but rather have an intellectual conversation/discussion/debate. Okay?
According to the debate judges and managers, we are not allowed to debate religion because it gives too much room for a lawsuit or hate speech... etc. It is their protective umbrella by not using religion as a debate topic... *shrug* Their rules.
It's commonly known that the founding fathers were fairly religious and based many of their thoughts on religious beliefs... have you ever read their letters, journals, or essays? Some of them are beautifully written, and many have "God" themes to them. Including many of the arguments. Oh, and that whole bit of "one nation under GOD" I forgot to mention that earlier, I had to get ready for work. Sorry about that.
Actually, the ego has a lot to do with religious beliefs. There are several religions based on that concept, but it was only later found to be scientific too, the logic behind it I mean. There are religions solidly based on just existing. Simply being. To do that, according to them, you must understand that sadness and even happiness are selfish emotions. But, selfishness is not good nor bad to them as long as people understand it. Once they understand and practice it, they may feel as though they are enlightened. *Shrug* Like I said, I enjoy researching such things and I can send you several websites based on it if you would like to read more about it.
It is entirely their problem and no one else. They have not been personally insulted at all. Again, you continue failing to understand the concepts of discussion and debate. This is getting tiring.
Didn't I just explain that? Did you not read my post?
Why should I? They are the ones who have no concept of debate, hence it is entirely up to them to educate themselves before coming onto a discussion forum.
Then, it would appear they too understand that folks will be insulted when religious beliefs are debated. Lawsuits? That's hilarious, actually, considering freedom of religion and freedom of speech.
It may be "commonly known" but it isn't true at all when it comes to having created the foundations and principles of the Constitution.
Please do, I would happy to peruse them and then comment.
Interesting... you didn't comment about the anthem lyrics.
Here's just a few examples that are online for ego in religions. Please note: Not all of the websites I could post because there are too many. Oh, and none of these represent a particular religion as a whole, so please don't think that's what I am saying/showing.
http://www.islam-watch.org/index.php?op … ;Itemid=58
http://www.associatedcontent.com/articl … rpose.html
http://jaar.oxfordjournals.org/content/ … /539.short
There are a lot on wikipedia, but I don't really trust that site because anyone can just jump on and edit it. *shrug*
Those are just a few examples. Many people believe that "ego" created religion entirely because of humans desire to know.
Probably, because they are same as the money, just a motto and not a requirement.
You'll find there are a number of people and organizations that would like to have those motto's remove for obvious reasons.
Thanks very much, I appreciate that.
Perhaps, but it would appear religions were born out of ignorance of the world around us. In fact, many religions are just more modern versions of other religions before them, Christianity being a very fine example of that. The Jesus myth, for example, has many versions that are literally identical.
But, getting back to our discussion, here are some points outlining online debate - the very first one would is probably key to our discussion. Please not that they appropriately use the phrase, "personal language or attacks."
Questions or challenges should be professional. Insulting, condescending, or comments involving personal language or attacks are unacceptable.
Critical analysis, synthesis, rhetorical skill, and wit are keys to debate success.
Focus on the opposing side’s position or argument. Knowing the “other side” is critical for preparing strategies to refute your opponent’s arguments.
Limit your arguments to three or less.
Use logic to make your arguments. Present these arguments clearly and concisely.
Know the common errors in thinking like logical fallacies and use them effectively in your refutation.
Present the content accurately. Only use content that is pertinent to your point of view and draw on support from authoritative sources.
Be certain of the validity of all external evidence presented for your arguments. Also, challenges to the validity of evidence should be made only on substantive grounds.
Your rebuttal (or conclusion) in a debate is your final summary position. Use it as an opportunity to highlight important issues that indicate proof of your points or refute your opponent’s argument.
And, here is the website for point number six regarding fallacies.
Here is another explanation regarding emotionalism, which is relevant to your friend:
Emotionalism: Avoid emotionally charged words--words that are likely to produce more heat than light. Certainly the racial, ethnic, or religious hate words have no place in rational debating. Likewise, avoid argumentum ad hominem. Personal attacks on your opponent are an admission of intellectual bankruptcy.
There is a special problem when debating social, psychological, political, or religious ideas because a person's theories about these matters presumably have some effect on his own life style.
Hope this helps.
I have other websites, but many of them are similar to those in content, I could also quote books, but I think those websites give a general idea on ego in religion as is. *Shrug* If not, I can go through my library, but personally I don't like to quote books without a person being well-versed in them because we all know that without reading the entire book, one sentence can be taken out of context and etc.
As for the "motto", I suggest you read some of the founding father's journals. They write all about their beliefs and how "God" affected their lives... including some of their political decisions. I won't quote those here, simply because I loaned my college history journals to a friend so they wouldn't have to buy them. When I get them back, I will happily give you page numbers and letters to read.
I apologize for using my college debate "style", but when you are taught a certain way of doing something, it can be quite tricky to break the habit. *shrug* Quite honestly though, I was not really looking for a debate, only a quick "play nice" kind of comment... as I have repeatedly stated, for my friend.
Though, I must say, to claim the government was not even remotely based on a religious statue is kind of far-fetched, isn't it? I mean, think about it, motto or not, those words must have held some kind of power to the people saying them. Why lie and pretend to believe, even in their journals, letters to family and friends, simply to create a few phrases? It would seem like too much work for them to "not believe"... do you agree?
That is something I wholeheartedly do not agree with, decisions in governments made with religious beliefs supporting them. Those who are indoctrinated into their religions have lost much of their capacity to think critically and most likely their decisions will not be for the good of the people, but instead for the good of that politicians god, ,and they'll probably be very poor decisions, too.
That's fine, but I too have repeatedly stated that your friend shouldn't be in a discussion forum if they expect others to respect their religious beliefs when those beliefs do not warrant any respect whatsoever.
Far too much harm has been caused to mankind and societies over the centuries as a result of religious beliefs, and that has to stop if we as a species are going to survive and cooperate with one another.
Yes, I'm sure their beliefs did hold some kind of power to the people saying them, it's called indoctrination and it is very dangerous to societies.
If a motto is all they were allowed to offer in light of their religious beliefs and the need for secular government, then basically it sounds like they were merely placated in their request.
Phoebe, Thanks for the cilvilized, respectful post.
Beelze, please stop acting like you have the answer to reality. It stretches slightly farther than just the little thoughts in your little head.
H i l a r i o u s
Is fine WOC ,I am a smart girl, knew exactly where you were coming from
I knew you would understand kiwi. I just wanted to make myself clear to the atheists.
Are you saying that to convince others or yourself?
WOC,I think it was my smartness, that Beezle was questioning.
Well I never ......lol
Beelzedad, No, I wasn't trying to convince anyone. Have good day
Your opinion, written out by men yes, inspired by God definitely.
That is another lie. You cannot claim definitively who or what inspired the writers of the bible.
Of course I can.... your opinion is no less or more valid than mine.
You can disagree, you can waste your life writing trite comments, but you have no superiority over anyone except maybe those you employ or who are your children.
Are you actually changing your story now and calling your post an opinion?
"Your opinion, written out by men yes, inspired by God definitely."
You are also free to lie about it, too, and lie to your children.
I am still 100% sure that the scriptures are DEFINITELY inspired by God, but to YOU it's just an opinion.
Likewise when you call me a liar, I know you are in error, but that's just my opinion.
As it happens I take great care to give my children a balanced viewpoint, after all I lived as a secularist until I was 41 years old, so I tell them what I believe to be true, and what secularists believe to be true, because I would rather prepare them for the onslaught they will receive from the secular world, should they choose to live in it when they mature, than leave them to be confused when they meet with secularists.
Balance is important.... I'm sure you agree.
Yes, I'm sure you believe that but it isn't anything you actually know or can prove in any way. My "opinion" only shows that you are not telling the truth, definitely.
Sorry, but I don't see any balance there whatsoever, I only see religious indoctrination on your part for yourself and your children.
yes beely you are very opinionated.
You claim that too mention God is indoctrination and that is not good. Now you state that if a person tell both sides of the story that is not good either.
With you there is no compromise or allowance for any other viewpoint than your own and you continue to indoctrinate us with your opinions.
SO for you to constantly haggle about indoctrination is rather a moot and laughable point, since you do the same.
I am sorry you cannot see proof.
I am reminded of acts chapter 14:1-4. when paul and barnabus went to Iconium to preach and god provided both signs and wonders (miracles) and yet there was still a division among the people, inspite of the miracles. Some people will never "get it". I do not wonder what side of the division you would be on.
Funny how you keep putting words in my mouth. I suspect that is because you are unable to respond in kind, perhaps?
Still don't understand the definition of indoctrination, I see.
You haven't offered any.
Is that your proof?
I've typed in the forums many times that my and other Christians proof is our relationship and experience with God through Jesus Christ.
Recall i used an example of a person whose hobby is model railroading. He sees the model railroad and all the cool add ons and thinks okay im gonna do that. So he buys a railroad train set and sets it up in his basement and soon after he discovers a wonderful world of add ons and scenarios and eventually has a huge railroad train set.
What he thought was tiny and small turned out to be a huge world of accessories, previously unknown.
The point is that until a person gets into something they don't usually have a full understanding of whats inside that 'world'.
I further went on to point out that those standing on the outside looking in (store window for example) cannot perceive the experience of those on the inside looking out. As humans we dominantly have to be involved in something to benefit from the experience of it. Trying to live a vicarious Christian life will not be the same as living it 'real time'.
This is all the proof i need. And the same proof is available to you, the words are even nigh unto you, in your mouth if you profess that Christ is Lord and invite Him into your life as savior. Simple stuff but takes some humility which God necessitates.
Psalms 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, you wilt not despise.
Isaiah 66:2 For all those things has my hand made, and all those things have been, says the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembles at my word.
A synonym of indoctrinate is brainwash, propagandize BUT the definition is:
1. to instruct in a doctrine, principle, ideology, etc., especially to imbue with a specific partisan or biased belief or point of view.
2. to teach or inculcate.
3. to imbue with learning.
Hope this helps
I'm trying to see the logic in your post, but it is puzzling. If a person sees another "large" railroad set "with" all the add-ons and then buys a "small" set with no add-ons, then he is already going to know the difference and already had "a full understanding of whats inside that world", yes?
So, your point is what, then?
Sorry, but your religion is not a storefront, it is open for all to see; nothing up your sleeves, so to speak.
Considering your examples are fallacious, your conclusions would follow as such, hence your "proof" which you live by is also fallacious.
Why would anyone profess such nonsense based on fallacious ideals? Makes no sense at all.
Thanks, but I already understand the definition of indoctrination, which you have placed here but have failed to understand yourself. See these words:
"especially to imbue with a specific partisan or biased belief"
Here is the basic version that is the primary definition that covers it all:
"Teaching someone to accept doctrines uncritically"
Your religion was taught to you and you were expected to accept it uncritically, in other words, without any thought or question, which is what you did any many more have done.
Well I think your word has been misused by you extensively as well Beelze.
in·doc·tri·nate (n-d k tr-n t) tr.v. in·doc·tri·nat·ed, in·doc·tri·nat·ing, in·doc·tri·nates. 1. To instruct in a body of doctrine or principles
You make it sound like hypocrisy. I do believe he spoke correctly.
"SO for you to constantly haggle about indoctrination is rather a moot and laughable point, since you do the same."
You are instructing others in where they are wrong from your viewpoint in a body of specific doctrine.
Whats wrong with them?
Like Custer said at Little Big Horn, "Hey, where did all these Indians come from!!!!!"
nothing is wrong with them at all, they simply believe. Its their choice.
I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said "Stop! Don't do it!" "Why shouldn't I?" he said. "Well, there's so much to live for!" "Like what?" "Well... are you religious?" He said yes. I said, "Me too! Are you Christian or Buddhist?" "Christian." "Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant ? "Protestant." "Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?" "Baptist" "Wow! Me too! Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?" "Baptist Church of God!" "Me too! Are you original Baptist Church of God, or are you reformed Baptist Church of God?" "Reformed Baptist Church of God!" "Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915?" He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915!" I said, "Die, heretic scum", and pushed him off
Yes. We are aware of the things that are humorous to sick diseased minds. Death is tragic. Apparently your views are slightly skewed.
Sounds more like you are that same little child who constantly gets scolded because you lack the understanding to quit beating little girls.
Unfortunately you will simply become offended, rather that use your God given processor called a brain and become somewhat less disgusting and twisted. Those thoughts lead to very diseased things like cannibalistic behavior, or zombie like where your pathetic jollies are more important than human life.
Yes. Laugh. Just like a child. And show everyone just how silly your little thought systems are.
Go on. Tell me some crap like, "it's a joke retard."
I'm very aware, but unfortunately it still gives insight to your personality, of which is posted here for all to see by you.
God was never about religion, but about waking up from the illusion that we are separated from God and from each other. Any teaching that teaches hate, fear,or judgment is not from God..These messages come from the ego..The problem in the world is the need to find someone wrong or to feel the need to correct another person's magical beliefs..
people project, what they feel guilty about.and sickness results from judgment..If you teach and think kindly of everyone, then a human will not experience pain, sickness and suffering..Always in this world, their is always a Victimizer and a Victim in every relationship..The trick is not to play the victim. To teach unconditional love is a pathway to happiness..the trick is not having to justify or defend yourself, nor allowing another to physically harm you or someone else.
It is perfectly acceptable to be an atheist, agnostic or, a witch. Its about acceptance of others. Its about being open-minded and allowing each other the freedom of speech. Christians mean well, but they feel they need to save your soul from eternal damnation, because they have been taught to go out into the world, to teach the gospel. Their doing it out of a sense of love and obedience.. Its amazing they truly believe in a God of punishment, that will cast you into hell, where you will be burned for eternity, for your sins..but their is their belief system.. I find its best not to argue with them..its futile to argue with someone who wants to be right...they must believe as they wish, and that goes for everyone. Everyone must believe as they wish..
No, we don't get the sin and sickness part because it is so far fetched from reality.
= - = - = -
me Sin is anything that is detrimental to our physical, mental or spiritual well being.
Lets assume I am 14 years old, I do not eat right, I take LSD, drink formaldahide, smoke crack cocain, for many years....
If I sire a deformed child ? do I blame that on God or did my "Sins" have something to do with it ?
That's not sinful, that's being a complete idiot.
No, that would be idiocy, not sin.
Where does your bible state that not eating right is sinful?
Give it up, Jerami. You're chasing a tail, in circles.
The teaching from the Course in Miracles which is Christian (Eastern )Teachings. Sickness results from anger :The acceptance of sickness is a decision of the mind. Healing is accomplished the instant the sufferer no longer sees any value in pain. Anger is used to make another person feel guilty.. Usually after you correct, judge, get angry, feel hurt by someone, you'll notice shortly that you begin to lose your energy, feel depressed or tired. You may start feeling pain, or you might have an accident., , or next day develop an illness.. Just observe what happens to the human body after you get upset... Of course you can always change your mind, and get well.. Some people take magic (placebo's called medicine), or whatever the mind accepts for healing...
Sin is described as merely absence of love... so thats where changing our negative thoughts about someone, can result in us getting well. In the bible Jesus, would tell people they were forgiven, because he knew they felt guilty for what they thought had done to another, and of course they projected their guilt onto another.. Today instead of calling it sin, we call it the Mind/Body effect... Psychotherapists know that its the emotions that make you sick... Jesus just happened to be a good psychotherapist.. He knew the sick need love, and thats what he gave them, and thats why they got well.. He had to use the words, sin etc... because that was the language of the day.. Beelzedad, maybe that will answer your question regarding " sin, and sickness" Now in the Course in Miracles, Jesus teaches, "Teach your brother he is innocent, and not guilty" Forgive your brother for what he did not do.. Forget his past mistakes and count up all the good he gave, rather then dwelling on all the hurt he caused""
You aren't advocating that system to heal everything are you? I would whole heartedly agree there are many things our minds can overcome. I beat a chronic form of arthritis down to very occasional bouts by convincing myself it was psychosomatic; but there are many illnesses that won't work on.
I don't think healing the blind was feel good medicine, or possible today; outside of the bounds of science. Do you?
I only know, that a child, that I once knew, had been told , she was going blind. She and her parents were all depressed and weeping.. I talked to her, about not having to accept what the doctor had diagnosed! I flowed energy through her eyes. As it turned out, 6 months later, her parents came home, elated, that their daughter's eyes were healed. I did not heal anything, but her mind accepted she was healed... It can't hurt to work to work with a mind-body connection especially when the diagnosis is terminal along with medical treatments as well.. Some people have a underlying need for sickness! It depends on their core beliefs and various other factors.. I cannot advocate that system to heal everything..but there has been some amazing cases, that have been documented.. Dr. Bernie Segel, ,Dr. Depak Chropra, and Dr. Wayne Dyer, are good sources for this information...
It is quite sad. A lot of people think they are so holy that they have the authority to judge, unfortunately they don't. That is the problem with religion and that is why churches are empty. It's not the way God and Jesus works. If you ask any of those individuals to show you their Spiritual Gifts they probably won't be able to because they themselves need so much work yet to be done. Rather look for children of God people and see why religion and it's billions of man made institutions is God's biggest enemy, to be be truthful it's religion that crucified the Son of God. We can't judge, only love our neighbors till they themselves find it at the Source. That is Jesus' way
And looking at the negative posts on this question I would say a lot of people are not getting the right message from the people that is supposed to be entrusted with it. It is truly a shame.
What is Wrong With the Christians?
They don't realize that Jesus did not die on the Cross; he was neither a god nor a son of god. Jesus did not believe in Trinity.
paar, I think you've already said that.
That is a reality; the Christians should realize.
Agreed Paar. Jesus emigrated to India where He set up a local Tandoori/Balti restaurant. Peter was brewing the beer outback.
Jesus did not take Peter along; I think; Mary was with Him for sure. Mary is buried near Kashmir at a place called Muree near Islamabad, capital of Pakistan.
I visited Mary's grave and prayed for her there. You may also visit, if you like.
Jesus was living like a prince there; every body respected him as messenger prophet of the Creator-God.
I think there would be many a small hotel near Jesus' tomb; if you visit there of course you could eat local Tandoori/Balti at some restaurant nearby.
I could not visit Jesus' tomb; though I would like to visit.
Chillies you will get in Sirinagar, Kashmir, India where Jesus is buried in a tomb at Mohallah Khanyar, at the age of about 120 years according to one tradition
Actually he died at the age of 37 when he was crucified.
I agree. I certainly think that your constant repetition of the fact is going to convince all Christians that Jesus did not die on the cross. I know I'm convinced now.
I was reading through this thread. It's odd how some people will say another is speaking hate speech because they are uncomfortable about what is shared. If one feel the words is hate speech, feel free to report it to hubpages. I hope everyone is having a great day.
If we show love, they say it doesnt exist or they don't recognize it at all.
If we show hate, they quickly jump on board and ridicule for that.
Sin causes guilt which depletes much of the bodies ability to function normally as Joy increases many systems ability to function normally.
I agree with you
I am a sinful person though; no claim to piety
It is always good, to try and understand each other with compassion. If people did not feel hurt or attacked in some way, they would not react in the way they do.. I find its best not to take things personally..defending each other, and truly understanding the other person, no what their beliefs are could result in all parties involved.. Love always is the answer..the past is always gone...
Let me try and type this again... I find its best not to take things personally, defending and truly understanding the other person, no matter what their beliefs are, could result in harmony, for all parties.. The past is always gone..There is good on all sides.. and if you look for it, you will find it..
Um I made this post a few weeks ago now,would have to scroll back to see who I was responding too ,definatley not you.
Sorry bouts confusion
No worries; I kinda figured it had to be to someone else.
Actually Jeff ,your response got me thinking about my post and I remember the events (vaguely).
Mark or Bezzledad had posted something about all the wars and attrocities caused by Christians etc ,basically questioning why Christians like to fight etc.
I know I was answering him. But that post has disappeard ,so it did look like I was talking to you.
It did look crazy trust me despite the oppositions opinions Im not
Some time back I saw this hub that will give honest readers something to think about. The writer is an American/Australian traveling in the outback when he wrote it.
http://hubpages.com/hub/The-Crueltys-of … -Testament
I read the above hub Earnest.
The problem I have with informational hubs such as that one ,is that it is unbalanced and overly emotionally in its review.
Judgement and Gods wrath is overly highlighted ,while any LOVING acts are left out.
Not balanced reporting in my opinion.
By the way have you heard of Lee Srobel? (Author)
Hes a known author and ex atheist who decided to investigate Christianity to better able to argue his case to his converted wife.
He changed his mind big time ,and examines the process he went through.
I know nothing of Lee Srobel other than what is in Wikipedia, which I just looked up.
It says he claimed to be a former atheist, but no details about his background is provided.
I thought the hub I pointed to made it's arguments well, and as it was not pro religion I see no benefit in him giving the other side of the argument.
oh boy earnest, so confused again but I got the smiley face and now I can even make one too
About wine, I think it is wrong for anyone to say certainly if Jesus took wine or not after he made. secondly Noah, the only man that survived the flood once got drunk. Thirdly, one of the apostles did take wine. So it is a personal decision. Those that have read my book( check my profile for its details) will agree that I dn't like to hear hate speeches that is one of the reasons I do not listen to some preachers although I came not to be taught by men.Yet few Christains like T.D.Jakes dnt make hate speech
The problem is that most churches do not allow questions while preaching is going on or after it. So members only listen and clap like birds of the same feather. Those that dnt like hate speeches may not clap but they cnt do more than that. secondly, preachers use bible verses to support their claim so questioning them is like questioning the world of God. Generally I think Christains can tolerate better than Muslim e.g people insult Jesus and go unpunished but the world was almost on fire for Danish carton
1 Peter 3:15 But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,
16 keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
Those who do follow God's word will know when to answer and when not to answer. But the above is the 'only' reason are given in which we are to be prepared for the question of why we put our 'hope' and revere Christ as Lord. I hope this helps. Blessings!
Phoebe, what you said about "ego" is intriguing. I think Beelzedad is an expert at using ego, without really understanding what it is. Clever use of "Einstein" as his facade. Those who "already know" can never be taught anything. That's ego. Ego doesn't care about others.
Perhaps there is plenty wrong with most, if not all Christians. If there is, I would look first to ego. It is an equal opportunity enslaver, and a sly devil, too.
most of us search a way to feel special. Some of us use religion and sacred texts to feel special. It's a lack of love, not received and unable to give. When I asked a catholic priest why he was not sad about taking away the symbol of the holy cross from public offices, as they did some years ago in Italy, he said " I have Jesus in my heart, no need to see it outside of me all the time. If they feel better without the holy cross I can only be sorry for them. If they want to ask about, I'm here to tell my experience." This is Christianity, no need to jump on others if you really believe. If you want to feel special, buy an Armani dress...
So, can we assume you too do not know the concepts of debate and discussion?
It's just an avatar, nothing clever about it at all. Members here use all kinds of avatars for their userids. Seems you are compelled to focus on me rather than the argument, perhaps you really should have a look at the concept of debate.
You mean like religious folks who only know one thing and never learn anything outside of it; the bible?
From many of the posts here, we can conclude believers only care about themselves and their salvation as they only do things to further their selfish need to be saved. While, on the other hand, non-believers are consistently talking about mankind and how we can help each other to survive.
Seems you got it backwards.
Thank you, but I think he's doing an excellent job of asking questions and displaying his thoughts on the matter. We may disagree, but it is simply a discussion to me.
I only have a few minutes then I regretfully gotta go,
Real Love is just like everything else. It requires a suitable environment to grow and survive.
It is very difficult for love to express itself when it is attacked.
If every time I see my neighbor, or even a family member, that hits me with sticks and stones, or bangs my toes with a hammer, etc. it becomes difficult not placing conditions upon my unconditional Love for that person. Kuiddit I say!
But I guess that we can love a person and still feel the need to avoid them, for survival sake.
It is difficult to love someone that makes every effort to not be loved.
Other than this .. Yes ... Love is unconditional
Love is like a beautiful Rose ... its only requirement is nourishment.
I am a knight girded for battle, though I bend no knee to cross or crown, but defendeth the wretched and defenseless. My God needs no defense, for He is my sword, and He is my helm, but I doth defend the flock from ravening wolves like Caesars drooling from the pillow covered slabs of the Colloseum. I am beholden to no man.
Love is a doing thing, it is never conditional, nor is it delivered with threats as in the bible. Horrible threats at that.
This is nonsense Jeremi, there is no such love.
You can say that you love your neighbor under the condition that he isn't a pheodphile.
If he turns out to be one, will you still love him even when you are killing him?
Who is talking about loving everyone?
Certainly not me!
Love, when given is not conditional.... not the same thing as loving everyone without condition. I leave that sort of rot to the religiously impaired.
The only love a paedophile would receive from me if he/she touched one of my flock is a lump of 4X2 over the head! I don't claim to be a god.
Now that is what I'm talking about, Except here in texas , there are about as many bullets as there are 4x2s
I'd love him under the condition that I hear a loud bang to go with it.
Of course love for a child, spouse, or family member isn't conditional. But sometimes expression of that love doesn't always look like love from that other persons view. Depending upon what the circumstances are.
You can not say I used to love somebody, If you can say I used to, then you never did really love them.
I agree with ya .... kinda sorta in most circumstances.
There is no such thing as an absolute, where the human condition is concerned. Unless you put conditions on it such as the love of a parent for his children.
To say love is unconditional is true only within certain perimeters, such as mentond in example posted above.
I once witnessed a father strap his teen son until he was tired. Then the father collapsed and cried for his son. After that experience, the son never stole another car or anything else. The father later explained that he was trying to keep his son out of prison.
A woman's daughter began shamelessly engaging in prostitution in her own neighborhood. The girl had strangers in her mom's house while she was at work. The mom finally bit the bullet and had her daughter committed to a training school.
How many have grown up with parents constantly nagging you about doing the right thing? How many could not wait to grow up, move out, and not have to hear the gab? How many realized years later that parents only wanted the best for you?
If you were driving slowly down the road and saw that a mighty bridge had broken down, and the deep river below was raging, what would you do if you saw a line of cars speeding toward the bridge and all occupants were unaware of the danger? How crazily would you behave to make them stop before they plunged to their deaths? You would jump up and down with all of your might while flailing you arms and screaming "Stop! They think you are nuts and throw you a bone as they barrel ahead only to drop into the surge and drown. You feel awful as you see other cars coming, yet, you repeat the same actions, only this time you are wilder.
I suppose we could call the first two scenarios examples of tough love. Christians are so sure of the Lord that they are willing to fight to help save others who do not believe. They can be outrageous, crazy, stupid, unreasonable, wrong, right, shameless, and many other things; but it is all done because they love you and would do anything, even make you angry, in order to save you. Christians are not perfect. All who profess to be Christians are not. Christians do wrong things like everyone else and cannot perfect the keeping of God's law. They need help, forgiveness, mercy, and grace. Christians are merely sinners on their knees. Non-Christians need not be intimidated by their imperfections.
What is wrong with the Christians? Answer: Everyone thinks that they are suppose to prove themselves by living a perfect life. Impossible. That is why we need a Saviour.
What is it to you if a Christian doesn’t stand up to the integrity of his or her faith and the memory of the words of Jesus. Integrity has nothing to do with our faith, it is trust and hope that keeps us in faith. We are not obligated to prove our faith to anyone, but we are obligated to live as an example of our faith.
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