Too Many People Approaching This In The WRONG Way

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   ryankettposted 12 years ago

   I have been reflecting recently on the direction that this site has taken, in particular the growing number of people who sign up and then ask 7 days or 14 days later when they will begin making money. Or they ask whether their CTR across 10 page views per day is good, or seek a magic formula for their first million.
   
   Frankly it gets really boring. If you are one of those people, who has just joined and are already checking their AdSense every day, then hear me out. I have a message for you....
   
   Your whole approach is wrong. You have to enjoy this experience, enjoy the process of building a hubpage, or enjoy the expression of your opinions, or even enjoy helping prospective buyers make an informed decision. No matter what approach you take, and irrespective of whether that has the ultimate long term objective of earning money, the money should not even be part of your thinking, if your only objective is quick money then give up before you start.
   
   And that is coming from one of the most commercial writers on the site. Well let me tell you something else. I spent the first 3 months writing on this site without any thought whatsoever to cash. I grew my portfolio to 1000 page views per day before money became a real interest.
   
   99.9% of the people who join this site are at least 1 month of solid reading away from being capable of making money. Perhaps 10% of those bother to do the reading. The reading should be done in conjunction with the writing.
   
   Have fun, find a topic which interests you, write 100 hubpages, try and learn a little something extra before each one of those. And THEN lets talk about how you are going to make the money. There is no quick buck, no quick wealth strategy, there is only...
   
   a) enjoying the experience.
   b) enjoying learning how to become a better writer and how best to present your work.
   c) enjoying learning how to search engine optimise and win traffic.
   
   If you can't do any of those things then d. doesn't follow. And that last one....
   
   d) start to think about how to monetise your existing and future efforts.
   
   This game is a steep steep learning curve for a newbie. The first step should be learning how to obtain 1000 page views per day. That should be your objective, it means exposure. Only then should you see potential.
   
   And that is my rant over. No traffic = No money. Don't expect the money until you can learn how to win the traffic. Gaining your first 10,000 page views is a much greater achievement than earning your first $100.
   
   Out.

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      WryLiltposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Hear, hear.

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      Marisa Wrightposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      So true.

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      Blogging Erikaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Absolutely!  And I would add, HubPages is a great way to learn how to write for an audience.

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      David 470posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Great post

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      YU_First 1posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      My My!
      
      ...I agree with Blogging Erika. What I know today is so much and some of it has been gained in the forums.
      
      This little mine advises on where to sign up to most benefit our efforts.

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      bgamallposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Hey Ryan, I noticed you have a popular hub about blog submission. Why have you parked your blog domain if this is such a successful strategy?

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         ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         That wasn't a monetised blog, it was a backlink dump.
         
         It was also hosted by Blogger. I have made the move to Wordpress, so will be resusitating the blog on that page.
         
         I am currently working on another wordpress site at the moment, an electronics niche.
         
         I did get your comment on that hub by the way, not necessary to repeat on the forum.

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            bgamallposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            What is a backlink dump?

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               ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               In other words, I was always aware that the site would bring me pretty much zero income (in fact it 'earnt' me $1), as there was no consistency with topics (and thus no consistency with ads on the homepage), I instead used it for the DoFollow backlinks to hubpages. Most of my traffic used to leave via my hubpages RSS feeds... which suited me just fine. I did see about $20 in revenue from YouSayToo though, which replicated every blog post.
               
               I am building a wordpress blog at the moment, and would like to consolidate all of my efforts. It makes it easier to manage my time. The possibilities are much greater, and the best templates function a lot more smoothly - less errors, snags, etc.

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      lifeinprimeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Thank you for your well written comments.  You make several excellent points and observations.
      
      Here's to your success!
      
      Brian

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      maddy757posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      absolutely true. very well said.

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   lrohnerposted 12 years ago

   Very well said, Ryan. I take it the painkillers are wearing off?

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      ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Well actually it is 6am, at least 3 hours before the start of my new self-employed waking hour of 9am.
      
      My pug puppy woke me up at 3am, crying to get into my bed and scratching the bedroom door. I have taken all of the doors off in my apartment (renovation), apart from the bedroom door. Big mistake. I cant shut my pug in any rooms.
      
      So I have been up since 3am, and now have a snoring pug inside my coat. A coat which I am wearing of course. So I am a bit moody, yes. But the pug-in-a-coat thing is far too cute for me to be angry at the puglet; money-grabbing newbies have to bear the brunt instead
      
      I decided to work through the early hours, in order to let my fiance sleep. She has to be up at 7am for a real life actually-leave-the-house job. So I thought I'd let her sleep, if I went to bed the pug would wake her up again.
      
      I am nice like that.

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   vanchenposted 12 years ago

   Nice post ryan.. glad someone finally said it.

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   CASE1WORKERposted 12 years ago

   quite right, admittedly I do check my adsense- 3p yesterday! I think that 100  hubs is a minimum to practise on.
   The 10,000 view target is probably in sight for me during October and although not confident of achieving it is a distinct possibilty.
   I think there are much easier ways of earning money on line, doing surveys pays at least 50p per hour which is more than newbies make on hubpages! Even though I have been here for six months, I am still a newbie- still learning, still reflecting and maybe understanding just a little

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   warchild75posted 12 years ago

   Well said,its like when you go to the forums and see the words "how make hub" those make me laugh,ive been here over 2 years and am still reading and learning from more experienced hubbers.Good rant!!

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   leni sandsposted 12 years ago

   Well said, ryankett!
   
   I came on here to finally share my work with someone, anyone.  I came on here for the fun of writing and reading other peoples work.  I stumbled on hubpages by accident while reading an article - the article was particularly interesting and was probably written by the first person I decided to follow but hey, that was 4 months ago.  I didn't understand anything about adsense then and I wasn't out to make any money, I didn't think I could and with a mere .13$ in the pot so far I guess I still don't. I am just here to write. I am learning a lot though particularly in the forums. I do find my hubscore and hubkarma a little distracting however.  I can't figure out the constant fluctuations between 90 and 95 on both and this prompted me to write a couple of poetry hubs.  I think that making friends and sharing hubs is far more interesting and if you make a little bit along the way - that's great.

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      Merlin Fraserposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I'm with you on this one, I too came here trying to gain a little recognition for me, as an author and my published work.
      
        I enjoy writing for the sake of it and quickly wrote a few HUBs on all sorts of things, funny, half serious and the odd rant but never with the idea of promoting anything other than me!
      
        To be brutally honest I think I am in the wrong place, like you I seemed to have completely missed the whole point of Hub Pages,I have to admit that I have little interest in 90% of the stuff being pushed at me and never click on any links.
      
      I can only assume the Hub Pages founders make the biggest cut and therefore are happy to encourage those who look upon the place as some sort of yellow brick road to an income without actully getting off their backsides.

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   mrfluffyposted 12 years ago

   Excellent post I have only been on Hub pages for 3 months and only recently signed up for adsence. I am enjoying writing and if I ever make money from this it will be a bonus not an expectation. To me personally writing is one of the few ways I have found to say what I want without being interrupted in mid-flow! Your point about gaining page views struck home to me I only have about 20 views a day so I need to go and work on the other 980 eventually, for now I am having fun reading other hubs and learning how to write. I enjoyed your rant thank you.

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   A la carteposted 12 years ago

   Not only interesting but a little education for new hubbers...I include myself obviously.

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   Pcunixposted 12 years ago

   Ayup.
   
   I don't even like writing commercial stuff.  "How to buy a new Ding Bat Bolt" bores me to tears.
   
   Success at anything almost always takes hard work.  Sure, sometimes people get lucky, but most do not.
   
   Whenever  I am leaving the house, my wife will ask "What are you missing?".  My subconscious answer is "Brains, talent and looks", which may not be entirely true, but the point is that what it really takes is effort.  Like Woody Allen said, "Eighty percent of success is showing up."   So for making money on-line, 80% is creating on-line content.
   
   As many of you know, I don't like spammy promotion and I especially don't like spammy promotion of inferior content.  There are many reasons why, the first of which is that all this fake backlinking interferes with Google's ability to deliver the best possible search results. I also don't like it because it's not really necessary - good content rises like cream all by itself (I know you disagree, Ryan).  Finally, I don't like it because overly enthusiastic application can lead to people getting banned from Google and can give this site a bad rep, which can hurt all of us.
   
   So, I'd like to add something to Ryan's advice.  As you do your 100 posts, also start learning about SEO - white hat, gray hat and black.  I'd hope that you'd learn enough to end up with a pure white hat attitude and stick with the very good advice at the Learning Center and at Google's link advice page, but if you won't do that, at least learn enough so that you don't hurt yourself or this site.

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    Bard of Elyposted 12 years ago

    All you've said makes complete sense to me, Ryankett! I confess I came here to make money originally but soon found that was not that easy but stuck around anyway. I liked hubpages and the people here and having a place to put my writings! Making money has been a real learning experience and after two years I still have a long way to go to get into the top earners!

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       Amanda Severnposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       
       
       I'd like to make some money here, but it's not my highest priority. I have kind of got to grips with how it's done, but I only want to write about things that interest me, and that will never attract me droves of readers. Still, my adsense is building very slowly, and eventually I'll see more regular payouts.

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       Whikatposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       I second that emotion Bard of Ely, After doing some major studying, I have found that it takes a lot of effort to make any real money to write home about with hubpages.  Your hubs have to be second to none. Your SEO has to be perfected and up to date. There are many hubbers that are making some good money with us, but the money was not just handed to them, they have worked hard and put a lot of consideration and research into their awesome hubs.
       
       It seems to be a continuous learning process not an overnight get rich quick scheme. I think all newbies who wish to make money with hubpages should start by reading some of  the flagship hubs to find out what a money earning hub looks like. Anyways, back to the learning curve for me

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    frogdroppingposted 12 years ago

    Ryan well said. Unfortunately the ones answering here know what you know, pretty much. The same old same old will continue. Still - there's nowt up with voicing your frustrations.
    
    It may surprise you to know just how many join simply to promote their own sites. And how many more join and then never write a hub. Or they write a couple, then forget the site exists.
    
    I think Darkside once pointed out that earning money online = working for it, or some such. He was pretty direct too but seems those he aimed it at never listened - or read it.
    
    @ Pcunix - I kinda wish you would write "How to buy a new Ding Bat Bolt" ... just for the hell of it

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       Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       I'd have to put it off hub-pages because there is no category it would fit in

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          frogdroppingposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Well - figure out what it fits best with, then go ask Larry or one of the Hubteam to make a new sub-catergory. They're very good like that you know *nods* I'm sure they will happily insert ding bat bolts into the system somewhere

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             Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

             I can't imagine where.  It would be satire on creating product or sales pages and we have no general Humor category.

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    CASE1WORKERposted 12 years ago

    intigued- what on earth is a "ding bat bolt" come to think of it what is a "ding bat"
    
    
    curious of course

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       WryLiltposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       A ding bat bolt is a favourite item of pcunix's - he uses it regularly to explain different information about SEO.
       
       http://hubpages.com/hub/The-early-bird- … ener-grass
       
       A ding bat (in my country at least) means a bit of a duffer, a silly person or someone a little crazy.

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          Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I'm gad you linked to that, because it does fit right in with Ryan's advice.
          
          See, Ding Bat Bolts really didn't derail the thread

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             shazwellynposted 12 years agoin reply to this

             Ding bat bolts are on the first page of google - see cream does rise!  And you didnt have to linkwheel it, blogroll it or submit the rssfeed! lol
             
             (who is searching this term though... arh... all of Hubpages!)
             
             

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                Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Yeah, but now everybody will be writing about them. I had the niche all to myself and was earning a pretty fine income from them, but now I've blown it.
                
                You see why people like Nellie Hoxie are so secretive?  This is exactly why.

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                   Kangaroo_Jaseposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                   .....and just as I was going to write about the whole demise of Australian Ding Bat Bolt manufacture in Australian.
                   
                   I do not like encroaching on other peoples niches, but hell it is getting competitive out there.

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          CASE1WORKERposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          thanks for the link- i had read it before but assumed it was some form of hardware used in american construction. Closer reading made me realise that the ding bat was me for not realising that it was a spoof product. Wonder how many hits the proposed article would get?

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             Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

             Well, we Americans are Ding Bats, are we not?

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                CASE1WORKERposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                According  to my husband who is not always quite correct ... a ding bat is an australian dog

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    sunforgedposted 12 years ago

    general humor category - http://hubpages.com/topics/entertainmen … /humor/661

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       Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Duh - I did not think to look under "Entertainment" !

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          WryLiltposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          You must write it now! C'mon!  No time like the present... wonder how many hits you'll get.

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             Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

             Ok.  Your wish is my command.  As always, I do whatever the women tell me to do.

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                WryLiltposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                

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    Joe Badtoeposted 12 years ago

    Monetise???
    
    If I make nothing on this site does that mean I'm broketise.
    
    and by the way I do....
    
    Make nothing that is.
    
    Not that I mind
    
    I think I'm an acquired taste.
    
    Have I typed this in my sleep or am I thinking aloud?

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    europewalkerposted 12 years ago

    Great Rant! Love the last paragraph.

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    Dale Nelsonposted 12 years ago

    @Ryan
    Nice Rant there. There should be a compulsory part of the tour when you signup to force you to read maybe 10 or so hubs in the hubpages category.
    
    
    @pcunix
    For SEO though, I would suggest
    
    Niche: Ding Bats
    Sub Niche : Ding Bat Bolts
    Micro Niches: Customising your outfit to match your ding bat bolts     or
    How much should you pay for Ding Bat bolts     or
    Top 10 Ding Bat bolts for summer

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       Dale Nelsonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Oh and congrats on your 500 Ryan. Saw it last week at 498 so it seems your fulltime is going strong.

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    Mrvoodooposted 12 years ago

    I had no idea that there was a RIGHT and a WRONG way.  And personally prefer it when people are allowed to do things THEIR way, whatever that should be.

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       ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Fine, I look forward to seeing you helping all those 1 day old hubbers with questions such as:
       
       "how i hub"
       "where my traffic"
       "look at my hub"
       "how do i make money"
       "i've been here 2 weeks and not made any money"
       
       Because those threads largely get ignored by the community, and 100% get ignored by you. So its all good taking the moral high ground, but you not exactly what I am getting at.

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          Mrvoodooposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Oh, I'm sorry, would it make you happier if I went back and edited my response to read "Hear Hear!" or "Bravo Ryan!"?
          
          Or should I just stick with my own opinion? (even if it differs to yours).

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             ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

             Yes stick with your opinion, I don't want to change it. I was just giving mine. Or should I edit my response too? Your opinion, mine opinion. You gave it, so take it.
             
             Or can you disagree with my opinion, yet I cannot disagree with yours? Pot, kettle, black.

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                Mrvoodooposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                'You gave it, so take it.'
                
                Happily, with a big smile on my face.

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                   ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                   
                   
                   I should really read these things back before I press submit.

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    experience daysposted 12 years ago

    I don't think there's anything wrong with people using Hubpages to make money. It's when they think it's a good way to make easy money.
    
    From what i've seen if you're doing it for the money it's a hard slog at first, and that's the way it should be. If it was easy to make money then everyone would be doing it, but this way there are more rewards for people who persevere.
    
    I wonder how many people would use hubpages if there was no money involved, either through the pages or the SEO benefits to their other sites.

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       ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       There isn't anything wrong with using hubpages to make money, and neither have I said so. If you started a thread tomorrow with 3 hubs with the title "how come i haven't made money" then you would be the perfect example.
       
       Anything wrong with making money? Nope. I make money, lots of money, but I also publish more than 30 hubpages per month. And I have done the bulk my learning.

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          TamCorposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Um, Ryan...I think they were agreeing with you???
          
          I am, too...to a degree.  I think everyone should have patience with the newbies, and point them in the right directions if they can.  If they don't like the posts, then they should just be ignored.
          
          I'm in this for the money, for the long run.  I've gotten a slow start, but to my husband and I, this will be something to build on, to help us as we inch closer to those retirement years...not that we ever will totally retire from anything.
          
          This gets us started, learning as we go, correcting our mistakes as we go, whichever happens on any particular day, lol...
          
          I wish we could've started when we were your age, Ryan, but unfortunately, we were both born a bit too early, lol.  But you're doing great, and you should be proud.  We're trying to do good, and hope to do better, as time goes along...

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    Lovesloveposted 12 years ago

    I admit to approaching  HUBS in the wrong way..I didnt realise what it was all about when I joined in !! So now I fel I should be looking to pastures new..If there are any out there for me !!

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    Daniel Carterposted 12 years ago

    When I accidentally discovered hubpages, I only knew that I liked writing and was moderately good at it. I decided it was an experiment, and that I would take time to play and forget the money. The first thing that happened was I wrote a hub that got the attention of Associated Press which formed a basis for an article they released nationally throughout the US. The second thing that happened was I was nominated for a hubnugget award. The third is that I suddenly discovered I had a good voice for writing, and I started writing willy nilly about anything I wanted, not doing a good job in any seo areas. I left a lot of things undone, such as finishing keywords, putting hubs in no group at all, and then wondering why I had zero reads on most of my hubs for months.
    
    So I went backwards. I started reading about seo, key words, content, backlinking, do follow, no follow--all stuff I knew nothing about. Because my whole life had been how to compose, notate, edit and publish music. And I've published over 100,000 pages of music so far in my career. (Not just my own...)
    
    The news is just as ryan put it. Some of us are so very desperate for money that we skip all the essentials about how to actually make money, then because the homework wasn't done, it's just too easy to give up.
    
    I don't mind that I took the backroads for a while. It was really exhilarating to write about anything I wanted and actually get *some* reads. But the joy is in the power of education and the power of being able to actually achieve your goals. If you're here to make money, then do the homework. Get eduacated.
    
    My first payout happened just a few days ago. It took 16 months. But now I have a complete arsenal of info I'm still working through and I'm enjoying the whole thing immensely. It's a wonderful challenge.
    
    AIn this world, you have to think forward, and forward means music xml to me. There's a whole new dimension to music publishing. I could never have dreamed 10 years ago that I would need to have an idea and basic understanding of music xml just to do my job. But I'm glad I'm learning.
    
    So, kudos to ryan's comments and advice.

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       kimberlyslyricsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Thanks Daniel

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    Bill Manningposted 12 years ago

    All this goes the same for people who make their own websites. A week later they are saying "where's the traffic, how can I get more traffic and make money"?
    
    It's a very common, very old question. Before even writing anything you should ask yourself "how am I going to get traffic to my hubs/sites and how will I make money off them"?
    
    You should know how to get traffic FIRST, before making a hub or site. Otherwise your just doing things backward, wasting time and having to redo your work.

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    psycheskinnerposted 12 years ago

    On what basis do you tell people their priorities are wrong and yours are right?  I am here primarily to make money, that is why I am on a site that pays money.  I monitor my hubs and make more of the type that make the most money.  I track my statistics and optimise my pages.  I look for tips on how to be more profitable.  That's perfectly okay, really it is.  Sure I am going slow and have realistic expectations, this is far from my primary imcome--but other people are in more of as hurry.  They need to learn not their their approach is "wrong", but that this is not the tool that will meet their needs.

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       ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       You misunderstand the whole basis of my post. If you understood its true meaning, you would have come to the conclusion that I am in fact telling people HOW TO MAKE MONEY.
       
       And seeing as I just achieved my first $1500 month, many would be well advised to listen.
       
       I am a straight talker, let me talk straight to you. If you are primarily here to make money then post less on the forum and publish more hubs.
       
       66 hubpages a year is not going to make you big money. And neither is a failure to embrace the Hubpages tagging system - as an example. A great example of what I am talking about in fact. Four months, not many hubs, a failure to optimise your hubs, yet a clearly stated objective to make cash. You have to work hard for the money, if you dont then change your objectives.
       
       I put it to you that you are not primarily here to make money, and if you are here for that reason then you are going about it the wrong way.
       
       Thank you for the case study.

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    psycheskinnerposted 12 years ago

    You told people they have to have enjoyment as a main motivation--and you really don't.  There are many *different* way to success here.  You know what worked for you, and sharing that is great.  but you seem to be saying it is the *only* way to get ahead in both actions and attitudes.

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       ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       It is the only way to really get ahead, you have to enjoy the slog.
       
       I guess that you wouldn't understand. I publish as many hubs in 10 days as you do in 4 months.
       
       When you reach that level of output come back and tell me that you don't need to enjoy it.
       
       As things stand, you are not going to make money on this site. A fool would shrug this off as an insult, a wise person would welcome the honesty.
       
       The true reality of the matter is that 22 hubs in 4 months is not enough output, and the result of your output is not in any way optimised for earnings or traffic.
       
       Yet you are telling me your primary objective is money. You are failing in that objective.
       
       Come back when you are publishing 50 hubs in a month, and tell me that enjoyment is not essential.

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          Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          As someone who has been making money for a long, long time, I have to agree with Ryan.  We have different opinions on promotion, but I agree 100% that people need to lean before they churn.
          
          As to enjoyment, what's the point if you don't enjoy it?  I am not sure you can even write well if you are not finding some enjoyment in it.
          
          To those who carped about "right way" and "wrong way" - yes, there are wrong ways.
          
          Ryan and I can duke it out about something else, but right here I'm solidly in his corner, and like him, I make real money and have for a long, long time, so together you darn well ought to be listening to this.

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             frogdroppingposted 12 years agoin reply to this

             Succint

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    Peggy Wposted 12 years ago

    This is educational for me who just started writing hubs almost 2 years ago and have been learning as I go.  I'm one of those "old dogs learning new tricks" so while I might not be the quickest learner, I do continually learn and then go back and tweak the old hubs.  From reading this, it is apparent that you approach this as a real job publishing many hubs per month while many of us simply write them as more of a hobby.  Nice to know that there is real money ahead if we approach this as you do.  Enjoy that cute little pug doggie of yours!

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    relacheposted 12 years ago

    Do you think that posts like this one can end up contributing to the problem?
    
    http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/55015

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       ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       http://hubpages.com/hub/My-Hubpages-AdS … -Disclosed
       
       No more than a search for 'Hubpages Earnings' would teach people that it is not an easy ride.
       
       What that also shows is that in the last 3 calender months, July + August + September, I have published 159 Hubpages on this account.
       
       That is a rate of 53 per month. So my message remains the same. Go and write 100 hubs.
       
       Nobody who publicly disagrees with this post is matching that output. The most common question I get is "tell me how you earn money".
       
       Normally they are from people with 10 hubs, 20 hubs. The answer is really rather simple. I work damn hard. End of.

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          Mrvoodooposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          'Nobody who publicly disagrees with this post is matching that output.'
          
          Not to take away from your hard earned success, but it is worth noting that HP is not everybody's main earning/writing platform.

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             ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

             Yes I am aware of that, and neither is it my sole platform. But this thread does relate to Hubpages solely, and the 0.01% was actually reference to those who come here knowing the game inside out. Perhaps more like 2% of 3%, but the same point nonetheless.

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       Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Maybe.
       
       But I think the backlinking advice posts are the really dangerous ones. Now I know nobody will read what I wrote previously about that (reading is so hard!) so I have to repeat myself: while I would prefer that people engage in pure white hat SEO only, if they will not, I would at least prefer that they learn enough not to go off half-cocked and damage themselves or this site.
       
       It has long been the contention of certain folks here that spammy linking can't hurt anyone.  That's simply not true: people right here at HubPages have had their Google accounts suspended because of overly enthusiastic link spamming and HubPages itself has taken down at least one page that we know of for similar activity by a different person.  Those are facts, not the opinions of so called SEO "experts".
       
       HubPages staff have also warned that HP can be damaged by excessive spammy linkbuilding, so no one should claim that HP condones such. 
       
       I know that people want to earn money and they quite naturally want to hasten the process.  I just want them to understand that real repercussions can come to those who over do it. Again, I'd rather they follow my advice, the advice at the Learning Center here and Google's linking  advice , but if they won't, they should  at least learn more than "backlink, backlink, backlink" before they rush in with both eyes shut.

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    SunSevenposted 12 years ago

    Wrong is RIGHT!
    Well, sometimes

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    AloBeDaposted 12 years ago

    Your advice is well taken Ryan, so i'm jumpimg 'off the deep end' by taking part in the October hubchallenge.
    
    That should give me a push in the right direction, hopefully.

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    nikmaya62posted 12 years ago

    That's true ryankett. The mistake is we too be in hurry to get much money from hubpages. That will affect the quality and quantity of our hubs. We just think how to get money from our hubs, but we don't think and realize that many thing we should enjoy and learn first from hubpages. Falling in love with writing is away to forget our destination to get much money, just enjoyed your writing and take it slowly to get really income from hubpages.

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    Nelle Hoxieposted 12 years ago

    Don't confuse silence or lack of interest as agreement.

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       ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Those being silent also being those who have not publicly disagreed? I used the word 'publicly' for good reason. The opposite being 'privately' of course.
       
       I am glad that this thread has evoked emotion and participation, irrespective of whether it is agreement or disagreement. That is what forums are all about, afterall.

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          Mrvoodooposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Agreed.  It has been quite entertaining.
          
          And on that note, I'm off to the pub.

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             ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

             Enjoy, don't drink too much.
             
             On the other hand, make sure you drink 'enough'.

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                Mrvoodooposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                'make sure you drink 'enough''
                
                You know I will. (and then I'll probably stumble back and try and pick another virtual fight with somebody else)
                
                Take it easy.

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       Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       I'm sorry, but I don't understand what there is to disagree with.
       
       Ryan and I are on totally opposite sides of the promotion by backlinking issue, but I certainly agree that, like sex education, it's better to have the facts whether you plan on doing it or not.
       
       As I noted earlier, we have people hearing incomplete and misleading advice and rushing off to create spammy links. Ryan might despair that others are doing nothing whatsoever to promote their hubs. Both sides of that coin can be fixed with education, which is how I read his original post: people need to read and learn both sides before they decide what course they will take.
       
       Am I missing something here?  Does his post say or imply more than that?

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          ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Pcunix, there isn't anything further to understand. Nelle doesn't particular like me, and that is all there really is too it. Its fair enough, I respect it, although the contradictions do frustrate me.
          
          The last time she got angry with me she was defending sales copy, stating that she loved doing what she does. In this thread I am telling people that they really need to enjoy the experience to become successful. So yes, you are right, there is nothing for her to disagree with. Quite how anybody feels the need to defend sales copy against somebody who churns out daily sales copy is beyond me, but thats another matter altogether.
          
          It is how it is. That is probably all that needs to be said.

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             Nelle Hoxieposted 12 years agoin reply to this

             You can enjoy what you do, while being very intense and serious. And that's me. I've got a daily workplan of 14 hours a day between now and 12/20. Thanksgiving is my day off.

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                ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Join the club, I just spent 6 months working MORE than that. Don't forget to wash.

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    Nelle Hoxieposted 12 years ago

    Yes I noticed your legalese way of implying a great deal of support. Not that many hubbers are particpating one way or the other.

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       ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       The idea of me needing 'support' to post my opinions on a public forum is frankly ludicrious, irrespective of how controversial or thought provoking those opinions are.
       
       I am fully aware that I lost your support a long time ago, I don't need to disclose the finer reasons publicly. I didn't feel as if it was fair, but your opinions were respected by me nonetheless. Of course, I didn't reply to that email, I chose "lack of interest".
       
       I find it somewhat amusing that you quoted my response to Relache after she noted that I had publicly disclosed my high earnings. You being the pioneer of such posts of course.

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    waynetposted 12 years ago

    Having a rant like this is good to get it off your chest and you made some useful points Ryan.
    
    The very fact that many join the site and simply expect earnings to come their way with minimal effort more than likely stems from their dealings with having looked up money making online elsewhere and so they think that they can make money overnight.
    
    I even did the same when I joined this site nearly 4 years ago, but now there is better information such as the learning center and select hubbers giving their own good advice, based on their use of the site.
    
    I use what advice makes sense and the process of writing to earn money is an experimental one that we all should be using with a trial and error mentality for our own written works as we all write differently in our own way and we each may have slightly differing goals to aspire to.
    
    Some people are wired differently for learning however, some seek out answers to questions, whilst others need to be spoon fed and hand holded to reach the answers, even if these constant questioners of the answers were smacked in the face with the answers they'll still have a handful more questions that would require another smack and maybe a head butt for good measure.
    
    I too get fed up of the endless statements of how make traffic? and how to adsense money? it's a little bit of the obvious most times with such things as if their English is bad, you just know they haven't taken the time to read and understand things properly, so why would an answer taken out of your time be any different?
    
    I'm off to make some money....

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       ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Well you know me WayneT, I like a good rant. They always seem to court confrontation, although the objective is often debate. The line between the two is a faded one, and so they often malgamate into one entity. I enjoy the occassional forum rant though, and I will never change, and lets face it.... it beats the standard political and religious hatred.
       
       I, too, am off to make some money. Ch-Ching.

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          waynetposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Yep Ch-Ching!

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    Nelle Hoxieposted 12 years ago

    Pcunix the original post was about newbies and how they act and about how they should been enjoying the process and not taking everything so seriously. It wasn't about spamming.
    
    Ryann was just on this site two days ago doing the same thing he's complainging about after two off days of adsense earnings.
    
    I disagree about the not taking it so seriously attitude. I have taken every day of my online work incredibly seriously and that might be why my earnings started as quickly as they did 10 years ago and have persisted.
    
    You changed the tenor of this topic with your concern about backlinking. I was responding to his original point. Sorry for the confusion.

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       Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Funny how we read that so differently. You picked up on the 'enjoy it" part at the beginning and I focused on the "learn what what it's all about" part at the end.
       
       Btw, I  have a daily work plan too - work as little as possible

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       ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       You are more than entitled to disagree Nelle. As is anybody on this site. One person has an opinion to express, another can disagree with it, no sweat.
       
       Of course the REAL reason for your dislike of me stems back to our little falling out. On 4th April 2010. After I had posted the forum thread 'Recommend a hubber with less than 50 fans'. In case you forgot that one, the link is here http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/40109
       
       I thought that that thread was a great way to help NEWBIES, you know.... the same ilk as mentioned in my original post. This thread went down well, I was going to keep it up for a while, discover some talent, encourage some talent, I actually had a few new hubbers personally email me to THANK me for noticing them.
       
       I was flabbergasted when recieving this email from you:
       
       
       "I know your intentions were good, but not all hubbers want fans or notoriety. Neither are necessary for success. I'm working so hard at keeping mine annonymous. I really don't want anyone finding my identities and saying look at this 100 hubs in 2 months a great niche and lots of knowledge.You know that just gets you people copying your work. You have no idea how many niches and hubs I've had stolen in the past two months. I wish I had never gone public. I have identities with zero to just a few fans and no comments making good change. I honestly think it's rude to cast people into the spotlight who've obviously chosen never to participate in the forums or to make lots of comments on peoples hubs.Sorry if this sounds rude, but it's been a very rough month for me on HP."
       
       As you know, I never replied to this email, and there have been tensions between us ever since. You have been quick to knock me down on the forums. I thought that "silence" or a "lack of interest" would suffice, I had nothing to say back. But your desire to criticise me publicly on a frequent basis, a couple of times much more extreme, have become clear. Therefore, I will take this public too. If that is what you want.
       
       The sad thing is though, you actually won. I lost the motivation to continue with the thread, which was actually making people happy. You show your true colours in this email. So before you jump over me for trying to dictate the way that newbies conduct themselves, consider the lack of your own community spirit and new found unwillingess to help people up onto the ladder.
       
       There you go, the truth. Out in the open. I would have preferred it if you had kept your last promise to stay off of my threads. What I do is none of your business, my opinion is mine and your opinion is yours. There is only one person trying to dictate things here, and that is you. For the protection of your own wealth.
       
       I appreciate the email that you sent me the other day, wishing me luck with my surgery. I didn't reply to that one because I object to the idea of being rejected and reaccepted into your little club. There are tonnes of great hubbers, I acknowledge that you are an excellent affiliate marketer, but I hang with others. I don't need to try and impress you or meet with your ideals, I do my own thing.
       
       And I will be resurfacing that excellent recommend a hubber thread soon, with some excellent new hubbers. By the way, I would never recommend somebody writing sales copy anyway - so you didn't ACTUALLY have anything to be afraid of.
       
       Goodnight.

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    frogdroppingposted 12 years ago

    Pcunix - maybe it's because the point has been confused with a good old moan about folks that don't make money. Or folks that want to make money and instead of learning, they ask, need a good bit of help etc. Then again - who knows *shrugs*.
    
    I figured he meant (specifically) the guys that appear, write one hub, write ten hubs - becaus they joined to make money and they find a week, a month (or whatever) that they haven't. Then they want someone to point out the 'why'. 
    
    Anyway - I've got some nasty bug that's been trying to wipe the floor with me all day so I'm off to fight back.
    
    You write that ding bats hub yet?

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       Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Of course. I had it done ten minutes after Wrylilt told me to do it. When any women asks me for anything, i am inclined to doing it. When a pretty gal asks me to do something, I jump to it. 
       
       You can get yourself in trouble by not responding to requests, you know. I learned that early on from having two older sisters and then again from my two daughters.  I just do what the women say. It's easier that way.

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          bgamallposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          You are such a wise man.

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    skyfireposted 12 years ago

    So true.
    
    Back to cha-ching.

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    adrienne2posted 12 years ago

    *applause, applause* Thank u Ryan for stating this fact. The first time I read a post from someone looking for earnings only after joining HP for a few days I nearly went into shock. People who are looking to make some fast cash wont be around long.
    
    Writers who are really interested in writing on HP will stick around learn what is necessary, and the earning will come.

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    frogdroppingposted 12 years ago

    Ohhhh then I shall go check it out! My bad

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    frogdroppingposted 12 years ago

    
    
    Placed so handsomely too. Look ... no backlinks lolol!
    
    *Edit - I'm cruddy with pictures. Sorry. Shows #1 for ding bats ...

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       Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Considering the competion (Misha has an entire ecommerce site that is nothing but Ding Bat Bolt accessories), I am very proud to have pulled that SERP.
       
       It won't last. I have been there before, but the big Asian companies always knock me back to insignificance.  I just don't have the resources they do.

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          ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          What is the search term? I cant expand that image.

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             frogdroppingposted 12 years agoin reply to this

             My bad again - it was ding bat bolts, or ding bats

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             Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

             Ding bat bolts, of course

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                ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                
                
                There was me thinking that you had reached number 1 for some up and coming Asian market, for some reason I searched 'Ding Dong Bats', and couldn't find you.
                
                Apparently there is actually something known as 'Ding Dong Bats', hmmmmm... maybe I will try and rank for whatever the hell they are!

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                   Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                   They sound yummy.
                   
                   Mmmm.  Fried dead ding dong bats...  Mmmmmm

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                      ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                      That is precisely what I would expect to find on the menu in some parts of China though Pcunix
                      
                      I watched a tv documentary prior to the olympics, you wouldn't believe the stuff that they ate. That said, I suppose burgers and chips could seem pretty strange for some of them!

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    lrohnerposted 12 years ago

    I just want to chime in here to say that it makes me very sad when people that I admire and respect have a public falling out. You both are very talented and hard-working, and I hope you can mend fences someday.

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       ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       It is sad, but a fact of life. We probably won't ever really get along again, but I will point out that all of our confrontations take place on threads started by me and not by Nelle. You are impartial, the best way to be, we are not on the playground - no response required; but I am not exactly seeking out confrontation. Put it that way.

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       Kidgasposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       I agree with this sentiment as well.

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    Bill Manningposted 12 years ago

    Great points by all here. One thing that this thread has made me realize is that I spend too much time on forums.
    
    A successful friend once told me that people who are really making a lot of money are not doing it by posting on forums all day long.
    
    Meaning they are too busy working and making money to bother with the arguments and nit picking that goes on in forums. How true, and I admit I post more than my fair share.
    
    So I think I'm not going to be posting much on here anymore and instead doing more work,,, and making more money.
    
    Especially since I'm taking a vacation soon to visit my home state of Vermont for the fall foliage. Have fun everyone, I wish all the best.

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       Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Life is much more than money..

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          frogdroppingposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          It is. I found that out. Not that I didn't already know, was just I had the money and ... not much else. Now I'm money-less and so much the better for it.
          
          As for your competition ... I'm sure you'll conquer the tinterweb with your ding bats

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          Cordaleposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Yes, Girls AND money.

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          skyfireposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          chocolate, pets, sunset... hot girls, books...aah..lots of stuff...

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             Pandoras Boxposted 12 years agoin reply to this

             The sunset is free, in most locations. Everything else you listed costs money.

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       Lisa HWposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       I'd agree that spending all day in the forums, arguing, isn't likely to be done by someone who earns.  Then again, though, I'd disagree just a little in some ways; because it can look as if someone is on the forums all day, when - really - they may be popping in and out WHILE they work on other things.
       
       Where I think people make their mistake, though, is over-emphasizing forum participation in the aims to increase their earnings or HubScore.  I pop on here throughout the day while I'm doing other stuff (and I'm not earning all that badly, by any means.   My thing, though, is coming here to take a little break - not to try to get scores up or increase earnings.  I think too many people only come here in the hopes of increasing their score or earnings, and it shows in what are obviously self-interest threads and responses.
       
       Basically, I'm under the impression that whether people write (or participate) for enjoyment, earnings, or both; what matters is whether they don't put in that all-too-familiar half-baked effort.  If you look at the stuff that high earners and/or high scorers write you aren't going to see some half-baked effort there.   With the forums, I think it's the same thing:  People may be serious or funny or whatever they are at any time, but I don't think those, "I'm-just-here-because-I-heard-I-ought-to-be (and it will help me)" posts do much for anyone.  Those people would be better off spending their time writing.
       
       People shouldn't assume, though, that frequent posters aren't earning anything either.  Sometimes it's BECAUSE someone spends so much time writing that he shows up in the forums as that way to take those little breaks from all that writing (on here or elsewhere).   

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    LSKingposted 12 years ago

    It's important to remember that some people are desperately seeking employment and are looking for ways online to make money. Not every one is greedy or money hungry. Simply ignoring repeat questions could solve any negative feelings in this regard. There are alot of great hubbers willing to answer questions. Many have also created hubs built around encouraging newcomers.
    
    I've been with hubpages for a little over a month now and I've had an awesome time thus far. I've won 2 hubnugget awards, made lots of friends, and read some awesome hubs along the way. I write for a few sites and hubpages is my favorite.
    
    If you have blogs or websites you may start seeing earnings because of the traffic sent through hubpages. I only have 26 hubs and traffic to my sites have increased. It's likely that a few clicks, may have come from the traffic that I gained here at hubpages. I count that as increased earnings and making money from hubpages.
    
    I say all of this to encourage new hubbers to stick with it. Work hard and learn along the way. Use the search feature above to answer questions and don't give up!
    
    LSKing

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       ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/40109?p … ost1250656
       
       

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          LSKingposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          ( Tears ) see I told you that this was a great place! You really made me smile speechless ( for a change lol )

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    Sally's Troveposted 12 years ago

    I've been here for three years this coming February. I have 50 Hubs (as you can see next to my avatar here). It's not a lot, but I earn money from Amazon and AdSense every day. That's not a lot either, but if I were to pump up the number of quality Hubs that I write to double or triple the volume, then I'd be sitting pretty pretty.
    
    HP is not instant gratification in the money department. It takes time, paying attention to quality and committing to production.
    
    "Earn money by writing on HubPages" is the line I followed almost three years ago when I saw it on Craigslist. Little did I understand then what the adventure would be. That's a big promise, "earn money by writing", but I got hooked, and the long-term rewards are worth it.
    
    Some have financial rewards here in a few months or a year...others will wait a much longer time. It all depends on the effort--and savvy--you are willing to put in.
    
    The right way to do this is to write quality stuff, learn from those on HP who know more than you do, and keep going.

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    flread45posted 12 years ago

    I make no money here,but have had two journalists come to my home and interview me on my adventures in life after reading my hubs and visiting my website.

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       Sally's Troveposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       One never knows the exposure one gets from being here on HP, meaning, the opportunities for money and success are broader than an AdSense dollar amount at the end of a day. And you are the proof of the pudding.

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    WryLiltposted 12 years ago

    I enjoy writing and despite learning about SEO, I still prefer to churn out at random, following tiny rabbit trails in the hopes of finding a warren... instead of chasing down the bear, which I think might just be a bit out of my league.
    
    I like to diversify. With the exception of the niche sites I'm working on of course. I figure if I cover enough bases, something's sure to bite.
    
    By the way, I published (I think) 53 hubs in September.
    
    And September doubled my Amazon earnings (although they were rather sad. )
    
    So I agree about the large amounts of content. We can't all be Misha!
    
    Ryan, just wondering, do you have multiple accounts?

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    Mighty Momposted 12 years ago

    There are many ways to be enriched. Hub Pages has enriched my life very much, increased my knowledge a zillionfold, and hopefully made me a better writer and community member.
    Kumbaya, Kumbaya, Kumbaya!

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    Mrvoodooposted 12 years ago

    Best thread ever!
    
    Pistols at dawn.
    
    Personally I love and despise you all equally, and in equal measure.
    
    Happy hubbing.

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       Kidgasposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Mrvoodoo,
       
       I picture you as more of a sword person myself.  How about I run you through and cut out your entrails?  Arrgh!

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    sofsposted 12 years ago

    That is a lot of good advice for newbies.I personally joined HP  because I could write all that I have wanted to write and I am enjoying it..the quest for money is secondary.. I am doing on the web what I do in person.
    I just can't be bothered with the traffic thing, it goes over my head so I have decided to concentrate on what I am doing and be content with the way it goes.

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    BenjaminBposted 12 years ago

    While I agree with you to a point RyanKett (and I think the underlying point you are trying to make is that new people such as me are saturating the site with inferior material)I can not fault anyone or myself for being driven by profits and try to do my best to encourage people to do all aspects of this site correctly and with a respectful approach while trying to shine the spotlight on the Hubbers I have learned from in the process.
    
    Personally I have always in any endeavor I have undertaken always had money at the forefront of my mind yet am very detail oriented in all aspects of the undertaking.
    
    I believe seeing some financial reward no matter how small can be encouraging to a new Hubber to continue on with the process,but yes they have to and I have to put it in a proper perspective (which I do). I don't expect to get rich quick and refer to my writing as my snowball and as such will continue to build it until it is rolling big and strong and gathering layers.
    
    Heck I get a kick out of seeing my average Ad Sense per day earnings raise 1 cent,lol!

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       shazwellynposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       I think what Ryan is saying is that you have to write with good intentions and the PASSIVE earning comes later, naturally.  Yes, Ryan posts quality content on other sites that directly links to hubs, but he doesnt spam - he just creates articles that are interesting to people and will help them with the queries that they search for.
       
       I think Ryan asks himself this...
       
       (i)'Is this going to be beneficial for my page's visitors?'(/i)
       
       And it is this that has been the key to his success.  So a message to newbies... ask yourself the above question!

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48. 0

    shazwellynposted 12 years ago

    Hey guys... lets face it and cut the crap - Google has got the spamming thing wrapped up and they will be fine tweaking in the near future.
    
    Many of us have resorted to burying our heads in the sand - doing the denial thing - and continuing with spammy methods of seo.  Content really is king and that includes professional looking, diverse articles (on page optimization is still important, because human behaviour will always be human behaviour). 
    
    You can not cheat the system - unless you are really good at it - that means being BETTER than the programmers at Google itself and, in any case, why would you want to?  The principals of seo can drive you into the madhouse! 
    
    Why not just love what you write and allow your hubs to be and grow.  Yes, some of the hub seeds will grow, some won't.. but surely that is the natural law and order of things.

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       sofsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Great advice there Shazewellyn.  I  have been doing just that and plan to continue writing what  enjoy ! 

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       bgamallposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Yeah, but when you see legitimate highly popular websites all finding out how much they are worth on the gazillion of websites that estimate it, and all the other that makes for thousands of links, you begin to wonder if the rules, as always, only apply to the little guy. Isn't that really what it is all about?

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          Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Thousands of links come from thousands of other people liking your content well enough to link to it.

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             bgamallposted 12 years agoin reply to this

             If you are an expert on something that is crucial to many people then you can come here and say you beat the big boys. But the big boys can sell dirt to farmers and make money. That is the difference.

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                Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Do we have to beat someone?
                
                I do not have the largest or most popular website in my niche, but I do fine.  What's wrong with "doing OK"?

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                   bgamallposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                   Oh yes, please don't misunderstand. You compete,and that is awesome, but you have a very complex niche. I am saying that the big boys compete against each other for the most popular commercial terms. Thats all.

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    RKHenryposted 12 years ago

    Ryan your original post was brilliantly worded.  I got into this game to make friends, help me with my writing skills, and to find a new hobby.  For the most part, that is still my goal.  There is so much more about hubpages, than just making money.  The real benefits of hubpages, lay somewhere between the many pages of hubs, and all the profile listings.  Our hubs are some of the best sources to gaining new knowledge, developing new techniques, and expanding our horizons.  It doesn't get any better than this.

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    Ladybird33posted 12 years ago

    I agree with you Ryan, well said!!!

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