Mike Huckabee says removing God from schools is to blame for shooting
Mike Huckabee says removing God from schools is to blame for shooting
Huckabee answered the question, "How could God let this happen?" by saying, "We've systematically removed God from our schools. Should we be so surprised that schools have become a place for carnage because we've made it a place where we don't want to talk about eternity, life, responsibility, accountability?
http://now.msn.com/huckabee-blames-scho … d=ansnow11
A mentally ill person is not aware of God perhaps and religion isn't always the answer to our problems, it seems to be the problem itself.if there was a god and he cared, do you honestly think he would let something like this happen. it isn't like it never happened before religion was removed from schools and actually, at least here in Canada, religion is taught in some schools but the kids are no better behaved then the kids from regular schools. teach your kids at home about behavior and quit blaming everything else for the problems.
Me, too! Times have changed. The more we continue to take God out of our country, society and freedoms.....we will continue to see more and more of this kind of activity. Sad....heartbreaking and true. We think that our choices and actions have no effect on anything or anyone else. When will we wake up and take some responsibility for the things we do? Like trying to take God out of everything including His own Birthday....Christmas?
I agree with you,God is the answer. Persons who decry God's existence are just weak and seeking a way to live their lives free of any moral or religious principles. They will be proven wrong. They will soon learn the truth though, when the veil falls from the face of the ungodly, their identity will be revealed.
Yet believers are too weak to even think for themselves, letting others tell them that a 2000 year old book of abject nonsense is the truth. Then they dare believers to challenge the nonsense...and believers don't. WEAK!
This is a Chicken Little moment. LOLYou really think that all believers have just been willingly led by the nose for 2000 years?
Unfortunately, yes, Chris. In matters of the believer's worldview, someone has provided a fantasy land for you to be inserted into, and you, and many others, have gone willfully right into the jaws of the delusion...needing to believe in, and worship, something that your imposed authority figures have told you to.
You refuse to even entertain for a moment that it is very possible that someone has tricked you into believing something that they know is not real, and that something has made you just too afraid to think FOR YOURSELF...Not God...but your own mind has betrayed you...as, otherwise you seem intelligent?Well, I will simply say that you really don't know me at all, but I don't want to get sucked into one of this tit-for-tat arguments (and I'm not accusing you of it, I know that if I'm not careful I'm perfectly capable of initiating one of those myself.)
You make an assumption about me, or at least your posting does, which is that my belief is based on what someone else has told me.
I don't know about that, I'm moral enough to not call you weak and doomed. And what's more ethics and morality are not exclusive to Christians. Christians are over represented in the U.S. prison systems while Atheists make up less then 1% of the prison population.
There are different "versions" and "expectations" of christians in the public's eye; I am most definitely far from perfect and do not consider myself any better than anyone on here. Honestly, it's not morally right or fair to judge anyone or anything, ecspecially when not any honest evidence is known or proven for truth about it. This discussion on this particular hub topic seems to have gone into left field just a bit..
But then the question is, did all those Christians in the prison system actually enter as Christians? And also, what about the growing number of Muslims represented in the system? Why are they that way? What do their beliefs while in the system, whether they are the same as they were when entering the system or not, influence them towards remorse or penitence?
People often find God in their most difficult times and many people in prison have surely seen hard times. I don't think that all of them enter as Christians or are Christians when they call themselves Christians, but being jailed several times myself, you'd be amazed by how many of them are closer to God than those who regularly attend church. Everyone sins, serial killers are no worse than you or I. As long as they ask for forgiveness and believe in God, their sins are washed away, just like the rest of us. I think this is something many Christians have a very hard time understanding.
Also, to the comment you posted later in this thread "That one hits close to home for me". There's no hard way to pray, as long as you have faith. Your wife passed the ultimate test, and she'll be eternally rewarded. Bringing her back may be better for you, but you'd also be bringing her back into a world of pain and suffering. She is where she belongs, and since the day she was born it was in her predetermined fate to leave this world at the very instant she did. Though she was given free will to do what she wanted, her choices were know before she made them.
You don't have to ask her for forgiveness because she no longer holds such emotions or feelings, she's forgiven you for everything the moment she entered heaven. As for God, you only have to ask him once, and you're given a clean slate.
Some of what I posted here may also apply.I should've said, as long as serial killers ask for forgiveness, believe in God and attempt to turn away from that sin, their sins are washed away.
Attempt to turn away? Are you saying expect forgiveness for something you don't do? Attempting and doing are two different things. If you continue in the sin you are committing, and repeatedly ask for forgiveness; are you not mocking Him?
No human can go a day without sinning; therefor, the only thing one can do is attempt to turn away from sin. In repenting a person tries to better themselves as a result of the feelings and what was learned from the sins they committed.
I stated later in this thread that a human sins in thought, word and deed. Even when a person is sleeping they sin in thought while dreaming and many of those sins they'll continue to commit repeatedly. Additionally, many things that happen in the subconscious mind are sins, and since these thoughts can't be controlled, a person will often repeat the same sins in their subconscious. So, unless you don't pray for forgiveness of all sins or you believe humans are Gods walking mockery, you must believe that we all ask for forgiveness of sins we'll continually commit.
For the most part, what you're actually doing when asking for forgiveness, is saying "Yahweh (God), I know I'm not worthy of your love, but because Yahshua (Jesus) died on the cross will you forgive me my sins?"Codester, I still need to ask you to state clearly what you fear will happen to you because of the sins which you commit.
It seems from reading your post that you "believe in" the christian teachings about sin, judgment, etc. I have yet to read beyond this. Do you, for example, believe you will be subject to eternal torture of some kind after your death? Do you believe all the punishment will occur within your physical lifetime?
All of the above is based upon the presumption that a god exists and will be the administrator of such judgment.... is this the case?How I see my higher power, as I like to call God or Yahweh (not to offend anyone with that word), is as a presence, existing in a dimension separate from our own and being of a much higher level of consciousness, intelligence and understanding. Also, having a complete perception of our dimension, time being irrelevant (our past, present and future coexisting as one). We are his creation; our life is only a single step along a path to ultimate wisdom, a path of tests that not everyone passes, of which you must learn to pass and cannot be taught. He cannot interfere, or we wouldn’t learn. He is not our personal genie or servant, he owes nothing to us. However, we owe our lives to him, as he's given us everything we will and have ever known. He knows every consequence of even the most insignificant action. The bible is a guide that was inspired by God, but written by men, ordinary sinful men. The bible is an introduction to understanding and was written many years ago, later being translated by more ordinary sinful men. Imagine communicating with ants and you may begin to understand how God communicated with mankind. There is no way we could understand what he does, much like ants could never understand what we do. I use ants as an analogy because I often think human colonies/civilization resemble ant colonies.
So, as I see it, if you don't understand the meaning of life by the time your soul leaves this world, you don't go to heaven. Although, a person may suddenly understand in the last few moments of their life and thus go to heaven. I see heaven, not as a place you can see, feel or smell, but as a place that exists in a way humans couldn't understand. Heaven being a place of total goodness. I see human life as one of the first steps in a transition through a series of steps from learning to guiding. The heavenly guider only watches over the learners and protects them from evil. I see hell as a place existing as heaven does, but where you'd re-live all your lives mistakes, painful times and regrets. You'd live it over and over until you become deranged, cruel and evil. Eventually becoming a hellacious guider that attempts to influence learners into a self-destructive path of pain, suffering and turmoil. Satan is a master of deception and would turn you against God, all his creation and everything that is good.Then, Codester, on that basis, I see you as a pretty mixed up mind.... one that needs a god of judgment lording it over your life.
I see that "god" as a construct of your own mind, which satisfies your needs. It is built up as a fear mechanism that you can peddle to others, get them to believe it, thereby having some kind of power/control over them.
Throughout your post you have said things like your god is "...much higher level of consciousness, intelligence and understanding...," " There is no way we could understand what he does, much like ants could never understand what we do...." " I see heaven, not a place you can see, feel or smell, but as a place that exists in a way humans couldn't understand...."
If the ideas you have of "god" and "heaven" and "hell" are as incomprehensible as you describe, and you cannot have experienced what it's going to be like (because you are human, same as me/us), then your ideas must be constructs of your own mind.
I have no problem with you believing all this, but I DO have a problem with you trying to infect the minds of others with such stuff.
For me personally, for I am free of such nonsense, I reject any of your interpretation. It is negative, black, unhealthy and perverse. It is certainly not evidence of a "Higher Power."
So, thank you for helping me to "see the light."Unfortunately, you are creating properties and characteristics about God that are not written in scriptures or anywhere else, which only serves to demonstrate you have to make things up from your imagination in order to support your beliefs.
I can do the same thing by making up characteristics about a purple invisible dragon living in my garage.
How do I know the dragon is purple if it's invisible?
Exactly.The dragon is purple because it is visible only to you maybe???
Could you explain how that is physically possible?
Sorry, you missed the sarcasm in that statement.. I wasn't serious at all with that explanation
And, it does raise an interesting point, that none of us are "special" when it comes to what is seen, heard and even conversed with from the depths of the thin air swirling around us.
That's odd, I've never sinned. How do you account for that?
I'm going to try to tread lightly here (Note, I know I'm walking right into an area that will be jumped on and I agree with the responses that are forthcoming).
By the standards of most Christians and according to the bible any thought, word, or action that is considered morally wrong is considered a sin, including but not limited to telling a lie, stealing, committing or even thinking of committing murder, lust.. etc
The thing that a lot of Christians either refuse to realize, conveniently forget, or hide behind the ideal of "I can repent so it's ok" that passing judgment on others (including telling someone that they are going to hell, which is speaking for God) is a sin as well
So with this in mind, a lot of Christians may be shocked to find out where they really will be if the bible is correct about heaven and hell... in fact, A lot of Christians better hope it's wrong.So If you have ever told a lie, stole, had sex before marriage, it would be considered a sin (forgot to add that to my prior response)
Just curious, where does it say just thinking about sining is a sin? Because that would mean it would be a sin even trying to prevent another from sinning because it's in your thoughts.
Matthew 5:28 is one example. But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Since adultery is a sin in itself, just the lustful thoughts are a sin as well. The thought and intent is as bad as the deed because you have pictured it in your mind.Thanks and Sorry, I find that so funny and disturbing at the same time. The use of the word (anyone) implies that only men are (someone) and indicate that it's not a sin for women to look at men with lust.
You are clearly right that those who assume these are Gods words are being mislead, the question only is to what extent they are being mislead.I used that one as a specific reference, though biblically, it does work both ways. There are other references, but then again like you said (and I agree) it is funny and laughable. I was merely stating an example of what is in the bible
There is no telling what extent they are being misled, but that still doesn't totally negate the idea that even though the truth has been obscured exponentially, that it is all a lie.. Kind of like the tall tales that used to be told throughout history. They may be exaggerated, but some elements could actually be true. We just don't know for sure which ones are true and which ones arent.A good thing to do is look at what is the most likely scenario. We would all love the most likely scenario to be the universe is the result of a creation of a loving God that will allow us to live forever in peace and harmony, but wishful thinking doesn't make the most likely scenario.
Biblically speaking it is also not the most likely scenario because God allows us to be ourselves. When most people (not all, but most IMHE) say that God would "allow" us to live in peace and harmony what they mean is that God would FORCE us to live in what they think of as peace and harmony. But if you don't know what hunger is, you can never appreciate being full.
Gee! it's going to be a lot of fun down there! Trouble is, there are so many of us from HubPages going to be shacking up together, yet we won't recognise each other. I think I'd recognise Claire and Mighty Mom, but you guys better wear a name badge. Oh, and Deepes Mind stands out a mile.
I wouldn't want to be talking to a non-critical thinker.
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I stand out a mile?? Is that a good thing or a bad thing??
Then, it appears I have indeed lived a sin-free life.
Odd that folks would find the time or inclination to do those things when there's so much to think about and do already.Sorry, that was presumptuous of me.. If you are or were married, were you a virgin when you got married? if never married, are you a virgin now?
Perhaps he is a man or women who lusts after men. In which case he's golden at least according to Matthew 5:28. I don't judge.
Matthew 5:28. But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.LOL.. I walked right into that one. But I was just offering an explanation of something another poster was trying to tell ATM. Same as with that scripture reference.
You appear to be honest, and I was not trying to deceive you in any way.
I didn't think there was any deception.. I just found it just as funny as you did when you used the same scripture in context with my other statement. I appreciate you and ATM and others engaging me in open and honest dialogue with regards to my thoughts and beliefs (well the ones that i have openly stated anyway)
As I told ATM I respect a lot of atheists a lot more than other believers because you all live life because it is right to live, which is how Christians should be living. I also appreciate that even though we may disagree on some things, you don't totally lambaste me over some of my comments.
All of us are just an illusion (at least Yours Truly thinks he is!), so none of us can walk into anything... .unless it's the sheep dip when we are not looking out for woolly arguments spoken in jest.
Oh no, I'm not virgin, but I do go strictly by the good book.
Judges 5:30 ... there must be a damsel or two for each man, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil.Are you two serious? He goes proof-texting and you say that was a good one?
You can have my share, ATM.....I never indulge.
For Christians, sinning is the act of violating God's will. If you don't believe in God you can't really sin because, from your perspective, sin wouldn't exist.
Regarding your first reply to my post, I was stating what I believe. I'm aware that it doesn't come from any texts or things of the like. It's only my interpretation of what I've read and learned.
@Deepes Mind
Passing judgement in thought is no different than to speak it, and when you wrote the second half of what you did, you must have had some Christians in mind. Therefore, you passed judgement on the Christians you spoke of.
To repent means to feel sorry, regret, or contrite for a past thought, word or deed. Those feelings being strong enough to cause the sinner to want to turn away from that sin. So when you say a Christian may hide behind the ideal of "I can repent so it's ok", it doesn't make sense. I understand what you mean, but it would have been better to say that they think "I can ask for forgiveness and be forgiven so it's OK". Also, it's good to point out sin so that the sinner becomes aware of it. However, for a Christian to simply come to a thread/discussion like this one, would most likely mean they'd be committing sins in thought.
If what you wrote was directed at me, I never intend to judge anyone and I wasn't writing about any specific person or group of people in my reply. It'd be very difficult for me to portray my beliefs without stating what I believe would send a person to heaven or hell.
No person on the face of this planet can say whether anybody is better or worse than anyone else.
John 8:7 NIV - When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.”When I wrote the second part of what I did, I was referring mostly to the way that I used to think, which in itself was a reflection of how I grew up believing until I stopped going to church from my early teens until my mid 20's. None of what I write is specifically meant to target any specific person in general. This is why I try to be careful and say "some" or "a lot" of believers rather than all. I speak based on my own personal experiences with church and institutionalized religion. I've also visited a church where this principle of "I can repent so I'll be ok". All they had to do was openly state what they had done during the week and repent. They believed that only people that went to their church were going to heaven regardless of their beliefs.
My comments weren't directed specifically toward you either, but I remind you that to even state a belief of what would send a person to heaven or hell could be perceived as passing judgment, which is a sin in itself and so a lot of comments that I have made have not been with the intent of passing judgment on anyone, just a slight caution that even though the Bible states certain things that COULD send people to heaven or hell, the final word as to where people will end up is ultimately God's (If there is one, out of respect to my atheist friends) and for believers to make specific claims could land them in the same place that they are trying to place others.
If I offended you, I apologize. That is never my intentNow, With that scripture you just quoted, you have actually made part of my point. I have seen a lot of believers (Both on HP and in the real world) stand up and state how atheists are going to hell for the sin of unbelief, how homosexuals are going to hell, and other sins in General, while sometimes downplaying or forgetting their own sins (notably passing the above mentioned judgments). All sin is the same in God's eyes, so believers should definitely make sure to continue to live the lives they have and make sure they aren't committing sins and continually repenting instead of trying to tell others where they are going to end up.
"moral or religious principles" are made by humans..... they have been made by different generations for millennia, to control other humans of the day.
You people who say you "live by the bible," are past masters at designing morals and principles to suit your particular objective.
No god had any part in the design of these morals or principles.If you don't believe in a God or a higher power, what do you believe in? What I've come to believe is the only way I can rationalize the existence of our universe and everything in it. If you got something better I'm all ears.
What I was stating in reply to your comment was strictly my beliefs. That is what I thought you were asking. I don't want power/control over anyone... And when I say human I'm obviously referring to myself as well. I'm implying that I don't understand, and I'm sure nobody else does. Also, my beliefs are what I've constructed in my mind based off information I've acquired from various sources and from my experiences.
Infecting?... Peoples minds are infected by their environment every single day of their lives. In my opinion, a persons environment has more to do with who they've become than genetics do. People believe what they want to believe, I don't force my beliefs onto anyone. If they become infected with my beliefs, then so be it. No different than someone becoming infected with yours or the next persons. People should be able to think for themselves.
Oh, when I say "you", while writing about my beliefs, I'm not talking about you specifically, but instead anybody (an individual).It is a product of the mind to have a belief in something (in general, not specifically a higher power). the thing that separates religious belief and scientific theory is that theory is a belief that is then tested for confirmation of the the belief while religious belief is not directly testable and cannot be known for sure until one dies or when God(if there is one, out of respect to my atheist friends) comes back as the bible says he will.
Is it a product of the mind to have a belief in something? I truly have no idea how the universe began even though I've listened to the theories. The experts can't even agree, so how could I believe any of them?
thinking about the scientific method in itself, wouldn't that be forming a hypothesis? Stating a belief of what would happen if you did a certain thing? Which of course next would follow testing that hypothesis to see if it is correct..
I'm not using this in relation to religious belief, just stating on a fundamental level where a thiking mind revolves around formulation a belief of some type.
By your own logic on how can you believe any of the experts, why have a belief in anything? because since experts cannot agree on science the same as believers cannot agree on God, would that then negate science as some people seek to negate the existence of God? or even render it as unreliable as religion since it is also based on the observations and beliefs of man?
Either way it goes, there can still the factor of the unknown of the real truth of existence and its origins. So just as we can be wrong about the existence of God, others can be equally as wrong about the nonexistence of God. which would put both believers and atheists on somewhat of a level playing field fundamentally, though logically atheists hold a slight edge because their theories and beliefs (or lack thereof) have a better testability factor.Science is certainly unreliable, but it is testable. A few hundred years ago everything evolved around the earth. A short while ago other galaxies were found, and after that the expansion of the universe. Then dark matter and then dark energy. We simply don't have all the answers and your correct I have no beliefs as to how the universe began or how it will end, but it matters not because I'll not be around for the beginning or the ending even if there is a beginning or an ending.
No beliefs. Even the experts don't have beliefs, only guesses.A thinking mind will use observations, properties, characteristics and knowledge of our world in which to base a prediction to form the hypothesis.
The religious mind would clasp their hands together and wish for an invisible super being to violate the laws of physics in order to fulfill the requirements of the belief.
Because you don't just believe the experts, they could be wrong. It is up to you alone to get the answers you need to have an informed understanding
That's a fallacy. You're comparing the hard evidence of science to faith based entities... how does that work?
Not a chance of a level playing field. Science has shown us the universe does not require gods, nor is there any evidence of gods to be found. No observations. No physical qualities. Nothing. Nada.
This is in stark contrast to what science has found in regards to hard evidence, observations and physical qualities, none of which support gods in any way.
In terms of possibilities and probabilities, the observation and testing of our physical universe has demonstrated our most successful theories to be a very high level of probability, logically concluding gods to be a very low possibility and even lower probability, infinitesimally small.I totally agree with this statement. A lot of believers cling to the hope that physics will be bent simply because they clasp their hands together rather than understanding that it takes a little (as in a lot) of their own efforts to get things done (which is also in the bible).
Another statement I agree with. This applies to the Bible as well.
I will partially give you the fallacy, But even the "hard evidence" of science can be unreliable as it is observed by flawed and sometimes biased minds.
The bible shows the same thing to a degree (a non needing of God or gods). Which is why I have stated that People depend on God wayyyyy more than is necessary.
even a low possibility and lower possibility (even infinitesimal) is still a possibility and a probabilityNot a chance. There is the peer review process which eliminates bias and points out the flaws, sometimes to the point of falsifying the hypothesis.
Sure, but a miniscule one at best in light to the overwhelmingly huge probabilities of what science has discovered.
Like I said, it is not a level playing field by any stretch of the imagination.
Not really. A theory's prediction is based on the understanding of physical properties and characteristics made up of the particular phenomenon in question, it is not based on a belief.
Ok, point taken, and I apologise for taking my comment too far as it applies to you personally.
Yes, you did answer my original question and thank you for that. At least it allowed me to clarify my own mind.
I do not know of anything without a root cause. God is the root cause of us all. If we forget Him, then we forget to feed our Spirit. The material has to be feed and the Spirit has to be fed also. We are made of both. When I was at school some 50 years ago, I was taught Grace before Meals; right and wrong, etc. A society cannot exist without morals, it will decay and die. That is why Confucious was so important. Men and women of God comes with an even more profound message, one which says that we are essentially Spirit and that if we forget our spirit life, we will surely 'die'. In other words, a life without the Divine means a life of extreme suffering.
Kids now grow without a rationale for the consequences of 'bad' behaviour, and the wages for this is pain and suffering.
Who can help? Parents, school and government. All three can help and are somehow responsible."Who can help? Parents, school and government." Sure but as a black man surely you must know that in the era of "God in schools" our country was plagued by terrible racist attitudes.... ask those who were not white what life was like before the civil rights act of 1964. Did God make white people repent or did man himself?
This is all very complicated in terms of the violence in our society and the solutions but it is highly simplistic to say that "God in schools" is the answer. The entire belief is unproven by fact and is wholly reliant upon faith. That is the irony of those who are so sure God is real; faith is what they must have and yet they ignore what faith really means.... it's a hope that has been elevated to a certainty by those who need it to be so.... and it is wrong to shove a particular belief in a deity (not right and wrong; there is a difference) down everyone's throats.My Brother,
God knows and we know that there is enough bad stuff everywhere if we look for them. There is a story about a badly behaved boy who was looked after by a man of God for three months and then sent back to his parents. By then he was totally virtuous. "What did you do?" said the parents. "Nothing." said the holy man. The boy had spent three months there and had learnt by example how to live a holy life.
Your answer reads like it is full of pain and suffering. Write as if it is full of comfort and solace and it will help others. What I am speaking of is not God but the basic elements of truth, love, compassion, mercy ... but we would not achieve these without prayer and care, irrespective of faiths. Since God seems to scare us, then why not common decency? Human nature cannot change and does not change without acts of selflessness. We see the problem, true, how about our own mirrors?I have my share of pain and blessings. No more or no less than I need or can bear. My comment is based upon the premise of this thread. To say that the violence in America is because God is not in the schools is simplistic. That is the point of my previous post to you.
ThankYou, Surburban poet.
Do you write poetry? I write some.
I enter Hub pages always for the same purpose. I strive to serve. I am your God-self and you are my God-self also. We are both special and unique. I believe firmly in this.
America is also the land of Lincoln, Jefferson, Washinton, Dickenson and many more who have elevated and will keep on elevating us with their sublime stance. Love and hate; good and bad, etc., are always there. We are never that far from Light, even in the deepest darkness. Still, we must follow our own inner dictates. I appreciate this. Many blessings.I appreciate your gentle and optimistic manner. We need more of that. Yes I write "poetry" if it can be called as such. I describe my style as "emotive prose" which came from a description someone on hubpages used on one of my pieces. Mainly I just try to express a feeling....
Excellent! I am here in London at 17:30 and hungry. I will go out to eat soon. Send me a poem or better still, when I return I will tap into your profile and see what I find. Life will improve, my brother. have hope.
For no man is my enemy
And no spiritual belief
For if he can honor free will
Then he will be my friend
And if he can only bring relief
Then he is welcome until the earth stands still
Yet a near Godless country like Sweden was voted the happiest country on earth. I guess happiness means suffering then. Or is it that happy people don't need this imaginary God?
Perhaps the belief in the supernatural is the cause of the suffering, and not as you are asserting.I've posted these stats a few time with no response. No surprise.
Japan 0.7% Christian.
Unemployment Rate: 4.6%
Life Expectancy: 84 years.
United States +75% Christian.
Unemployment Rate: 9%
Life Expectancy: 78.5 years.
Philippines +90% Christian.
Unemployment Rate: 7%
Life Expectancy: 72 years.It appears that the less religious countries are safer, healthier, and have lower crime rates. Of course these stats must be skewed!
It appears to me that christian prayers don't work. Despite the prayers of the people of the Philippines and America the Japanese live 12 years longer than the people of the Philippines and 7.5 years longer than Americans and they do that with jobs.
Rad Man I love you bunches, and I'm sure the stats AREN'T skewed, but it really doesn't point to religion as the causation... One could just as easily say it's because Japan doesn't have blue on it's flag. Commonality does not equal causation.
Hey Melissa, I know it has nothing to do with religion. That's the point I'm trying to make while other are attempting to show how prayer works. If Christian prayer worked the stats wouldn't look like that.
*grins* Then you would have to prove that the Christians prayed for life or a job.
I have never prayed for either.
I'm only arguing with you on a "fallacy of statistics" viewpoint. Not a theological oneWhat do Christians pray for when they are ill or when they don't have a job? You only need to glance at my Facebook news feed to see all the people praying for someone's health. I'm just looking for evidence that it works.
Well I guess that depends on your definition of prayer and definition of "works".
It's actually pretty effective for me, but I don't pray for things or actions, I pray for answers and attributes.
If I pray for strength, I'm likely to immediately feel stronger. If I pray to the answer to a question I'm generally going to have it soon.
There's a certain psychological logic there, and if you like I'll look for proof. The lines of whether it is religion or psychology or even philosophy that makes those kind of prayers effective are blurry. But those kinds of prayers are effective.Prayers should be more effective than meditation. Every time someone gets cancer they pray for a miracle, but cancer doesn't care and if you've gone in cancer wards you'd see cancer doesn't discriminate. More often people are told they don't have enough faith and so they end up with guilt on their deathbed. I've seen it too many times.
I've also seen prayer get grieving parents through the death of a child. *Shrugs* I guess that puts it at even.
I completely understand that position, however I would submit that prayer is a false alternative, a vice, if you will, in the same way an alcoholic would turn to drink. It doesn't actually get to the root of the problem, but instead masks it.
In other words, the grieving parents never really do cope or get over the death of the child by finding closure in prayer. The problem continues to exist long afterwards and manifests itself in various ways.I'm not sure I'm even against the thought of alcohol as a coping mechanism to grief...not the way I went but I was surely given enough "numbing" pills by established medicine to think there might be something to it.
After all, if your friendly neighborhood doctor can hand out a script for Xanax or Ativan to help with the grieving process, what is the difference-practically speaking-between that and a fifth of Southern Comfort.
I think that slowing the grieving process doesn't mean ending it. Having faith hasn't ended it for me. It helps when it is overwhelming (sometimes it still is) but I really can't see how it's any worse than the established medical ways of doing the same thing.Not much difference other than alcoholism, I would agree with you. However, it is the doctor that offers 'coping mechanisms' through therapy and professional counseling I refer. And, while there is going to be various levels and magnitudes of grief to deal with, it is far more effective and produces better results for closure than drugs and alcohol, or prayer.
Oh I agree that therapy is exceedingly helpful. The point I'm making is that therapy-and it's associated pills- really isn't all that different-at it's roots-then prayer and alcohol.
Affirmations are very similar to prayer. Praying is also really close to "talking it out". Church is really close to group therapy. Religion and psychology are in some ways pretty close and the study of psychology has been very heavily influenced by examining religion and figuring out how it works on the human psyche.
In addition many therapists USE a patient's religion to further their therapy. It actually makes treatment easier. If you believe in heaven, there isn't a therapist in the world (who cares about their patients) who isn't going to use that as a coping mechanism.
I agree to the ends of the earth that religion is generally bad for the "hard" sciences, but when it comes to the "soft" sciences (sociology, psych, anthropology) it is respected and incorporated (at best) or at worst worked around softly.
Which goes back to the whole religion often is good individually but bad on a societal scale.
That one hits close to home for me because I've often wondered if I'd just prayed harder, would God have healed Lisa. But she never wavered in her faith, even though she was going through a painful death that separated her from her children (I stayed with her in the hospitals, so in that sense we weren't "separated.")
People who keep their faith do get to go to Heaven, so in that sense it's a win for them (I know that probably sounds awfully glib, and I don't say that lightly. I still cry for her and sometimes still ask for God to bring her back.) Things happen for a reason. God has plans. And sometimes prayers are answered in ways you don't expect and might miss if you focus too hard on the one immediate. But I still ask both God and Lisa to forgive me.Things happen for no reason but is human character to assert reason and motive.
God may have plans, as you say, but do you actually believe his plans included giving cancer to Lisa so she would die a painful death, especially considering she never wavered in her faith?
Hmmm....
Actually I thought about this a lot even before my wife got cancer. I don't know. I don't know why. As a Calvinist I know the party line is that God is literally in control of everything. If the plan was "to give her cancer so she would die a painful death" then that's only a small part of it. And yes, I do believe that. Did God "give" Lisa cancer? I don't know. Her family history is one of illness, and cancer is part of it. But I do know that God did not abandon Lisa. It wasn't a blind faith in the face of only pain. She was ready to go, she told me that she had seen the light and heard the voice. I don't remember if she said she saw Jesus or not. It's still pretty raw.
Her last week was pretty horrible.You probably do know why, at least to the extent of having some evidence to show for the understanding. More on this later.
Notice that contained within that paragraph is once again the statement, "I don't know"?
From my perspective and imho, it would appear you really would like to have an answer to that question and it would also appear that holding that position is troubling you somewhat.
Reading further into your post, we find the evidence and a likely explanation...
There you have it, Chris. It was most likely all about genetics as opposed to creationism. To hold the Calvanist belief that God did indeed give Lisa cancer as part of his plan is not a belief anyone would honestly want to hold for closure in light of the evidence. I hope you would agree.
I can understand that talking about this can be very difficult, Chris. I applaud and respect you for doing this openly no matter what other differences we might share. Kudos, sir.Thank you.
I think about and struggle with it.
I don't deny that genetics are a part of it. As the father of two autistic children I find genetics to be a big part of my thinking about a lot of things. The truth of genetics does not negate the truth of God. It would be nice to think that things "just happen," but my experience is that both in micro history and in macrohistory, it's rarely that way.Then, I can only conclude you actually do accept the Calvanist belief that God gave Lisa cancer in order for her to die slowly with excruciating pain to further His plans, whatever they may be.
And since, cancer takes so many people in the world, we must therefore conclude God gives them all cancer so they too can die horribly in agony to further His plans.
That's quite the sadistic and cruel God.That's also a rather simplistic way to look at it. And since you already believe that the Christian God is cruel and sadistic, a bit self-serving.
Then, explain which way I should be looking at it because that is the only obvious answer.
That's a fallacy. I don't 'believe' any such thing.You've stated that the "Christian God" is cruel and sadistic before. I wasn't saying you believe in the existence of such a God, I was saying that you believe the God we Christians claim to believe in is cruel and sadistic. At least that's what you've said.
Sorry, but those are not my beliefs, those are the obvious conclusions based on YOUR beliefs.
All right, if I'm wrong I apologize. I can only go by what I've read or your posts. You have used the words 'cruel' and 'sadistic' on more than one occasion. What do you actually believe?
What people believe is irrelevant, it is what people understand that is important. Anyone reading the Bible should easily see that God is indeed cruel and sadistic by our current moral standards. And, while I understand believers consider our current moral standards irrelevant to their God, they still follow current moral standards and not what their God wants them to follow.
Funny how the thinking person rejects the lack of morals your God possesses and teaches, yet the believer eats it up and embraces it, learning to live their lives with a lack of morals.
Well, now you're getting cold again. Freezing, actually.
Come now, Chris, you and I both know your morals do not stem from your religious beliefs, but are instead a result of your social environment, just like the rest of us.
Someone told me a few days ago that a sin is a sin is a sin. No one greater than the other, but ethically we know murder is a greater wrong than using the lords name in vain. Hell, that's not even a crime.
Sin and crime are not synonymous. Sin is what makes God angry, and using His name in vain is definitely not going to get you on His good side. Many things that we used to think of as criminal activity are re-encoded for any number of reasons. And then you can find yourself in a group where their unwritten code carries stronger penalties than even the strongest written legislation.
IN the Bible, liars are in a heap of trouble. It doesn't differentiate between people who tell "harmless" fibs and people who tell whoppers that get people killed. A sin is a sin.So, then our own ethics has diverged from the morals taught by the bible because we have a better understanding of morality now then those who wrote the bible. We are able to understand the difference between a little white lie and murder.
It's certainly true that we have a different understanding. Whether that understanding is truly better or not is a much, much longer debate.
I'm not to sure, I think it's safe to say that murder causes more destruction to peoples lives then a little white lie, like for example telling someone there dress is very sliming.
Look, we've both been married for decades so yeah, people often engage in those "little fibs" that just seem to smooth life. And I've heard lots of sermons about it. But God doesn't lie, and He expects the same.
I'm not pure. I still remember quite clearly the last time I lied to my wife. It was a "little white lie" but it eats me up inside to think about it. She was in the final stages of her sickness and she asked me point blank if the goal was still to get her back home. She had been at home for one day and the nursing people had bent over backwards to make sure we had everything but it was a disaster, and I could see quite clearly at that point that she was never leaving the hospital. But I also knew she wanted to be comforted and have hope, so I copped out and said, "If that's what you want." I have no idea how I could have handled it better and I'm sure God has forgiven me for it but I can never think about it without feeling incredibly guilty.I had the very same experience, but with my mother. She hadn't eaten for months, but was so swollen she could no longer walk and was no longer thinking clearly. She finally agreed to go to the hospital, but within a day she wanted to go home. It would be up to me to administer her meds, but the meds were not taken orally and the thought was very disturbing for me. I don't think she ever thought she was going to die. I told her I'd look into getting her home, but of course I never did. She slipped into a coma shortly after and I've felt guilt about that lie since. However if I had taken her home I would have had many more emotions to deal with.
Yeah, that's pretty much how it was for me. People tell you that you were just trying to be comforting or helpful or loving or blah blah blah, but we carry around these memories in an entirely different way because of the relationship we had with the people.
In fact, had she died at home I can't even imagine how horrible that would have been for the two younger children, especially the middle child.
We aren't really so different. There is no easy way out. Thanks. Respect.
I have no doubt that for you that's true, since you don't seem to have religious beliefs. And I've never claimed other than that for many people that is true. But it's not true for everybody. And my values and behaviors did change after my conversion.
It is true for the vast majority and most likely you, too.
I doubt that.Then you have proven my point for me in the most forceful possible manner. And there is no doubt about that.
Seriously, to feel free to pass such judgement, what kind of arrogance is that? I'm serious, what kind of self-absorbed jerk sits there and, based more upon his own feelings than on actually observed data, decides what is and isn't true for someone they have literally never seen? In flat contradiction of what they say and for no better reason?It is observed data, Chris. Sorry, that you feel that way, but it's no secret that most if not all believers deny their indoctrination, that is, until they realize it and make efforts to break it.
You make a decent point here ATM. A lot of people do deny their indoctrination. This is not limited only to believers though. And all people are indoctrinated from birth in one way or another until they seek their own understanding of the world and their place in it. I have met people that were raised and fully indoctrinated in fully atheistic households and circles that are now believers and vice versa. It's about individual perspective. The sad thing is that a lot of people try to categorize and organize a lot of ideals and principles that are (on some levels) individualized. That's why A lot of people try to classify atheism as a religion. But the truth is that even though a group of people may believe (or not believe out of respect to my atheist friends here) in the same thing on a fundamental level, the way they view their beliefs can be totally different. It's like a thumbprint, no two are exactly the same. The issue with society is that it tries to lump all fundamentally like minded people into the same group and mold.
I'm not so sure. To indoctrinate is to teach a person to accept a set of beliefs uncritically. Uncritically is the key word. We are talking about blind faith. An atheist would teach it's children to think for themselves and to look critically at all information, which is the opposite of indoctrination.
I'd have to agree and disagree with you there, friend. There is a good portion of atheists that unknowingly teach their children to think just as an uncritically as many religious people do. You can't box all atheists together, either. Many people misunderstand the true nature of science. It is not absolute in nature, and yet many follow and apply it as rigidly as the more dogmatic religious folk; meaning that they listen to basically almost anything that comes out of the mouth of a well learned person with a shiny degree. And their kids pick up the same habits.
I've actually met atheists who don't seem to understand why they're atheist and are actually quite uncomfortable with religious conversations, or who are atheists because it seems cool in their circles. Not necessarily because on some intellectual level they've really concluded that there is no god or it's impossible to prove or disprove one's existence (technically that latter part is agnosticism).Well said! I've been saying much the same thing.
I'm very surprised to see this comment from you Rad Man
And, what exactly are fully atheistic indoctrinations? Please explain?
It appears you may not understand what indoctrination is about.How he explained it to me was that all he was told growing up and taught was that there was no God. He never questioned what he was told or why. so he grew up following and believing that there was no God because that's what his parents told him and the people around him told him. Pretty much the same as A lot of Christians blindly follow what they are told regarding the bible without questioning it. Which as I understand it based on a definition i read earlier in this forum is what indoctrination is.
I doubt that is the same thing. Parents and the people around you will tell you unicorns and leprechauns don't exist, either. That isn't going to cause you to do things in the name of the non-existent leprechaun nor is it going to change reality in any way. There are no beliefs to embrace.
of course you aren't going to do things in the name of something that you were told don't exist. Basically even when he was seeking answers for himself, all they kept telling him was just trust them when they say it. no further explanations, nothing. It was purely a matter of "because I said so" I am merely repeating what I was told. that's it. he was raised atheist then became a believer when he became an adult.
That's fine. I can only tell you what i was told.. I didn't say I believed it or not. This was just what I was told by this person. I actually mentioned it so that I can get an atheist's point of view on it. I had no way to prove or disprove what he was saying. I left it alone
What's interesting is that you didn't question the story yourself or else you wouldn't have used it as an example. Do you accept it?
What you're saying is that parents are indoctrinating their children to not believe in God without any reason whatsoever other than they should just 'trust' there is no God. No explanations, no dialogue, nothing, nada.
That is absurd. Or, that is the product of a dysfunctional family with mental disorders.
It would be like indoctrinating children into believing there are no unicorns or leprechauns.
To what purpose?No I didn't question the story. There are two reasons why I didn't question it. One, I really didn't care enough to keep asking questions (I rarely asked questions about things that didn't directly affect my life at that time, which was my mid 20's) and two, I like to think I'm open minded enough to accept any possibility. I view my personal beliefs as exactly that, a BELIEF. I don't cling to my beliefs as the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth no matter what. I like to think I am willing to accept the possibility that I could be wrong.. Which is why I actually enjoy coming here to exchange ideas with others, especially atheists like you and some of the others. I actually like you guys better than a lot of the Christians here despite our difference of belief (or lack thereof, out of respect to you). Most of you state your points in a manner that is gives more of a clear reason for your line of thinking. I respect that a lot better than Constant quoting of what is said without examining the information and gaining individual understanding of what is being presented.
The purpose of indoctrinating someone is so that you can get them to think the same way that you think or to think what you want them to think in order to manipulate them, is it not? I would think that that would count even in indoctrinating someone into not believing in something that there is not enough evidence for without giving them the option of questioning what they are being told for themselves.Unfortunately, it is the affliction of the thinking mind to ask questions... an affliction rare in it's purpose sought after.
Then, I applaud your honesty, good sir. There are too few of you here. I hope your constitution holds up.
That would be the ends to the means, so to speak. The process of indoctrination is to make sure the information provided is being accepted without question.
I would agree. However, your story lacks a purpose unlike that of indoctrinating one into a religion. It simply doesn't make sense.
The parents would have to be deeply disturbed, especially in regards to religion.
Perhaps, they were choir boys.I disagree.. Even a thinking mind can be apathetic enough to not care to get the immediate answers.
I appreciate the respect and applause. I really respect you and you have a lot of insightful hubs and ideals. There are a few atheists here, Like you, Rad Man, JM, Mark, Getitrite, and some others that I can identify with better than others with the exception of a specific belief. I don't really like to express my beliefs fully in some dialogues because my personal beliefs are so different that both atheists and Christians think I'm nuts. Christians call me a heretic and atheists call me silly, deluded, and irrational. And I'm ok with that. Keeps me in my own little happy bubble..LOL
I think there is a lot of disturbances in indoctrination in general. No matter what the indoctrination is.
But thanks for entertaining me and answering what I was looking for
Sorry for not having been ample opportunity for conversion.
Evangelism is a self-serving act of egotism and is antithetical to our naturally evolved trait of altruism and usually results in conflict.
The Evangelist will try hard to pitch fire and brimstone, but upon finding no converts, they move on to the next conquest. Meanwhile, their latest encounter has been immensely offended by the audacity, arrogance and invasion of the Evangelist whose only purpose was to program another robot. Selfishly, uncaring and without respect for anything or anyone, the Evangelist marches forward fueled by the hellfire burning within and oblivious to the reality surrounding them.
This is why they fail.If I'm reading this correctly, it appears that you assume that I was trying to convert you. If this is the case, you have made an incorrect assumption (one that I don't take offense to). From what I've seen here, a lot of people try so hard to convert others to their way of thinking that they are extra pushy to the point where they reduce themselves to insults and personal attacks.
I was not trying to convert you to anything. I made a statement of something I was told with the purpose to get the thoughts of any atheist that would have responded (in this case you). I am here to exchange ideas and learn more from others. If something I may present in the way of my ideals strikes enough of a chord in you to change your thinking, then cool. Just like I've learned a lot that has changed my way of thinking in a lot of areas. But at the end of the day, your thoughts are what works best for you in your life and do not affect mine in any way. Just like my thoughts work best for me and my life. I am willing to exchange ideas and can offer an explanation for my thoughts and beliefs and I attempt to respond to some things objectively (or equally biased..LOL). But I am not here to attack any one else's beliefs, nor am I here to defend mine from attacks. I can state what I believe, Accept the possibility that I could be wrong, and keep moving.
Also I'm just going by exactly what this person told me. They said they were indoctrinated. These are not specifically my words.. Just wanted to clarify
You have got to be kidding me.
Fine. I will admit that intractability is a trait that interests me, even if it's used in the services of being a bit, ah, arrogant. What documentation? Can I see this somewhere, please?Chris, I got over 3 million hits on a simple search of 'religious indoctrination', almost 4 million hits on 'religious indoctrination of children' and about 700k hits for 'religious indoctrination child abuse' - there is a tremendous amount of information there. If you believe I'm kidding, do the searches yourself.
And I'm sure I can get 7 million hits on flying spaghetti monster. I want to know what YOU are using for documentation.
Frankly, that almost smells like a set-up. Tell Chris to go out on Google and hope he comes back with some certified whacko so you can say (again) that "it's not true and you know it."
I'm sorry if my words upset you Chris. No ill will was intended.
My cousin was just told his 7 year old boy has leukaemia and all people are asking for is prayers. I tell them I'm sending my energy and ask them to open an account so people can actually do something by giving money.I'm sorry to hear about your cousin. I will pray for them.
I know no ill will was meant. The thing about going through something like this is that you never know when you're going to encounter something that will open it all up again. The only way to avoid it is to shut yourself off from the world and that really doesn't work very well.Getting money to them is a good idea too because I do know from experience what a financial drain the whole thing is, even if you have good insurance. Which I didn't.
I'm not understanding what your stats have to do with being a christian?
This forum is about the power of prayer in America, but the counties with the least percentage of Christians live longer and have a better economy then the countries with very high numbers of Christians proving prayer is not the problem in America at all.
Prayer is not the only factor when it comes to the welfare of a country.
The butterfly effect, name being "coined by Edward Lorenz, is derived from the theoretical example of a hurricane's formation being contingent on whether or not a distant butterfly had flapped its wings several weeks before." When you factor the butterfly effect into every occurance that takes place in this world, matters become very complex. You may speak a single word, that you believe to be insignificant, but that word could potentially change this world forever. There are billions of things happening every second on the face of this planet, all working together as if they were a massive system of gears. One gear effects the other and that one effects the next, so on, so forth.
Now, if God were to answer a single prayer, let alone all prayers, think of the potential impact it may have on the entire system. Thus, there are some prayers God cannot answer due to its effect on the system as a whole. God knows the outcome of every action and reaction. And not just the ones that happen in our world, but the entire universe. Additionally, it's very common for humans to be clueless as to what they actually want and often what they think they want would counteractively cause something that they wouldn't want to happen.
To put things simply, life is painful and was meant to be painful as punishment for the sins we've made in and since the beginning of mankind. We should be thankful there's an end to the pain and suffering, if it wasn't for the death of Jesus we would suffer for all eternity. The only people that should see death as a bad thing are those that don't believe in an afterlife.
I'm sorry your cousins son has leukemia, I couldn't imagine how it must be for the father... However, there's a greater scheme to everything, things don't just happen by coincidence. There is also a positive side to everything and, as I have had family members die from cancer before, I know the positive aspects can seem very scarce, but even if they're difficult to see they are always there.
I'm assuming you must live in Canada, there's pros and cons to the insurance there, as there is here. I broke my leg in Winnipeg, quite a few years ago now. It was very cheap, but the wait times were horrible. Also,when I came back to the States and went in for my followup appointment they told me it had been casted wrong.
Anyway, nowhere does it say that Christians will have it easier than non-Christians. If anything, it would seem that Christians would have it worse, since sometimes they're tested to tell if they are worthy of an eternal life in the kingdom of heaven. Non-Christians have no reason to be tested because either way they're going to hell.
I honestly think things in this world need to become very bad for a brief period in order to bring things back to a positive state.With regards to prayer: God also may answer, "yes, no, or wait". Besides that there are other factors at play, such as God not answering prayer because the person is asking ‘amiss’… they are asking for something that is actually wrong for them to ask for… or for something that will hurt them or someone else (like I Lord please let me marry a particular person, even though they are married already). Also, God may see the prayer of evil persons as an abomination; these people do evil, will not come to Him in forgiveness (for Him to be their Lord & savior), and expect Him to be their genie in a bottle when they want help. Also, even “Christians” and churches within ‘The Church’ may not get answers to prayer when they are living in the culture (not just a one time occurrence) and committing the same acts of disobedience to God (AKA: sin). These issues aside, prayer is real and powerful. It has worked in the past and continues to work with regards to salvation, communion with God, and even healing at times (not every time).
Also, I would say pain & suffering is not necessarily meant to be brought upon us as a punishment as much as it is a result of ‘sin’. It was brought into this world because of disobedience to God, not that He wanted to ‘get us’, but it had to happen as a result of ‘sin’.
I would also indicate that not everything we go through is a ‘test’… not always of God anyway. This world is a ‘fallen’ world; meaning sin & death are here as a result of the decisions of mankind. God may test people, but the other factors involved may be demonic forces attacking us, the flesh tempting us, and the world hating us and trying to persuade us; besides just the difficulty in living in a world that is in the fallen state, thus will be prone toward hurt and eventually death.
I will say that unfortunately people respond to difficulty sometimes better than if everything is going well. In other words, people don’t see the need of God and His grace until they are in a tough position, so they cry out to Him. This is usually because they either know of His existence and perhaps had a relationship with Him, or are simply desperate and cry out to Him in their desperation… many times this way works to get people to understand they need something (or Someone) outside their situation. The flip side of the coin is that people say “there cannot be a God because there is evil and suffering”, but I’ll address that in an upcoming hub (so no need to go on any more of a tangent).AKA speaking to, with one's self. Hence the association of this activity with "god."
However, when such activity takes place aloud, in the company of others, such "prayer" commonly becomes a sermon embodying a judgment. (Never let it be said that such a "prayer" could pass my lips, of course)
Yes, most of what you said I agree with, and in my post I didn't mean to indicate anything contrary to what you've said. While you've addressed different areas, most of what you said coincides with what I've said.
Portions of my post may not have been worded very well. Like "God cannot answer" he can answer any payer he wishes; however, knowing the impact it'll have on the world, he sometimes won't. Also, it would take a book to explain everything. So, for the most part, I just summed up the areas in which people usually have a hard time understanding.
I too see pain and suffering as the result of sin. However, even though it may not be delt to us through the hands of God, I aslo see it as punishment. It's indicated in the bible that Lucifer was cast out of heaven before the fall of Adam & Eve (Before they committed any sins). Also, in Christian religion, Lucifer or Satan was present in Eden, the garden of God, either as or through the King of Tyre. God states that he was "the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty." This leads me to believe that he was the highest of all the angels and when God created man Lucifer became jealous and attempted to turn Gods beloved creation into sin. Thus, God cast him out of heaven and after he was cast out he became angry with what God had done, leading him to continue to try to turn Gods children into sin. Later, since all humans sinned and were being sent to hell, God made a deal with the devil, that if he were to enter the flesh and die the most painful death, his children could enter the kingdom of heaven if they repented and asked for forgiveness of their sins.
When you talk about evil people, that's something I don't completely agree with. It's Christians duty to spread Gods word to all, and if a person doesn't fully understand Christianity that doesn't necessarily make them evil. Jesus often walked with the worst of the worst, and many he saved. If he had seen them strictly as evil, I don't think he would've spent any time with them. Furthermore, Christians sin in thought, word and deed. Even when you're dreaming you're committing sins in thought. So since it's impossible to control all of your thoughts, you will most likely continue to repeat the same sins over and over throughout your life. That doesn't mean God won't forgive your sins or treat you any different than any other Christian. As I stated earlier in this thread, you and I are no better or worse that a serial killer. As long as that person asks for forgiveness, repents and believes in God, they're forgiven for their sins.But, what if we all don't want to hear you spread Gods word? We can read the Bible if we want, we don't need you shoving it down our throats. All that accomplishes is conflict. Is that what you want?
Absolutely ridiculous. That is by far and away the most repulsive thing to say. Those who were victims of the serial killer, their families, friends and society as a whole would certainly not agree with that.
Some of us actually have morals and ethics and would not do such things even without your Gods word.
Obviously, Christianity does not teach morals or ethics.Yes it does. How those morals and ethics are applied, on the other hand, are up to the individual just like in society. And just like in society there are positive sanctions for correct application and negative sanctions for incorrect applications. And, just like in society, people usually just give the short answer which lacks nuance and usually doesn't take variations into account.
You make a good point. about you not needing it shoved down your throats. Realistically we are supposed to spread the word and whoever wants to hear it will hear it and whoever doesn't isn't supposed to be beaten over the head with it. And you certaqinly aren't supposed to be threatened for not listening either.
You're missing the point, we don't want to hear it. Period. Keep it to yourself behind closed doors where it belongs. Thanks.
I can understand that. That's why I don't actively start any discussions regarding religion and politics. If the topic is raised then I may respond. But If you don't talk about it, neither do I
But one question.. If you don't want to hear it at all then why engage it when it is presented?
If we don't engage the irrational beliefs of myths and superstitions, believers will plummet our world back to the dark ages, embracing ignorance and delusion.
I can go along with this, with one slight adjustment. You used believers in a generalized way as all inclusive. Despite the way it looks at times not all believers are the same. We share one common belief, but there are differences to the beliefs. If not, there wouldn't be denominations. Just like atheists prefer not to be grouped all together because (as per my understanding based on what I've seen here) not all atheists are the same. They just share a lack of belief. I've tried to distance myself from some of the other believers because even though we share a belief, I can accept the possibility that I can be wrong in this one because unless God (if there is one, out of respect), comes back as the bible states before I die, then nobody will know the truth (so to speak) until we die. I like to call it the un-living testable theory. Meaning until it is tested and proven (in death most likely, I admit), then it remains purely a belief (In my case more of an optimistic one rather than an absolute certainty)
Yeah I know, It's delusional right? Not sure if I even explained that one clearly enough..LOLThat is why religions are false, believers themselves can't even agree with one another.
Exactly, which means we can all be grouped together, that we all share a lack of belief in your religion and many other religions.
Myths and superstitions don't have the capacity for testing or falsifying, hence they are not theories.Exactly, Organized religions are false. I like to think of organized religion now as the "mob mentality"(A mentality that I admittedly used to follow, thankfully events changed that). If enough of them believe the same thing without question then it must be true. A relationship with God is personal. You cannot apply a blanket mob mentality doctrine to something that is personal. This is part of why I have a lot of respect for atheists. You guys are actually living the lives that (In my own critical analysis of the Bible) believers should be living. The primary difference at this point between you guys and myself (in my opinion)is my belief and your lack thereof. The main consensus (based on my understanding) that I've gathered from you all is simply there is not enough information for you to justify a belief in God, therefore you choose not to blindly follow a baing that may or may not exist because there is no tangible evidence. My belief (and this is the only time I will ever state this here) Is that I believe (optimistically) in God, But based on what I've read (and understood) is that he has empowered us to do a lot of what People continually pray to him and beg him for. In other words, like a parent, he gave us guidelines (certain life application parts of the bible) and taught us no not need him. This is why I even argue on here with other believers.
Maybe theory was not the correct terminology that I should have used. I simply meant that we won't know until whatever event occurs that will put us in place to meet God (if he exists)Yes, I understand the new 'buzz phrase' with believers is to have a relationship with their gods as they shun the indoctrination machines that were responsible for the beliefs in the first place, but that's just more baloney.
God is nothing like a parent, but instead is a maniacal sociopath, nothing short of a despot who makes demands for worship and obedience, not guidelines.No, He's like a good father who is trying to teach His children the right way to have a good relationship with Him and each other. We just are more and more insistent that what we want for us is best no matter what it does to others.
No father other than one who is a psychopath would ever treat his children the same way as your god.Well, you've been incorrect before so why break the streak now, right?
It would be ridiculous in the extreme to compare fathers with your God and you know it.
I think your view on God is ridiculous.
If you seriously think religion is to blame for all the worlds problems, then you have seriously been deceived.
Each and every person is responsible for what they do ultimately. For instance I dont kill, because I believe its wrong
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My conscience tells me its wrong ,then I grew up and find Gods word confirms it. If it didnt ,does that mean I would suddenly start thinking its ok to kill ,because I dont agree with another party or want what they have albeit power or ownership.
No in each and every heart ,is the knowledge of right and wrong, simple as that.
No need to look for a scape goat.That is simply not true. Your feelings have nothing to do with what you perceive to be right or wrong and not everyone has the ability to differentiate right from wrong. Those who lack the ability to know they are doing harm are called psychopaths.
I was not talking about feelings.
As for the psychopath ,how do you or I know he doesnt know whats right or wrong. The difference is his conscience is dulled or blunted.....o the point.he no longer cares.
Alernatively observe a 2yr old child when he hurts his baby brother or steals that extra cookie, what tells his mind to feel guilty?........or ,dont touch the hotplate.but he does it anyway, why?....human nature, call it all what you want.
The fact is our human natures have a tendency to be bad ,not good. Note I said tendency.
From the moment we are born we are being formed by our environment ,developed ,influenced,trained, and our conscience become sharper or duller depending on what we already is right or wrong.You weren't talking about feeling then why did you say "No in each and every heart ,is the knowledge of right and wrong, simple as that."?
I can only assume by heart you meant feeling as the heart pumps blood and we sometimes associate the heart with feelings.
It's ridiculous to suggest psychopaths don't really exist. Do a little research.psychopaths certainly do exist, I never disagreed with that .
I explained something a little deeper is all.
Tell me for example ,are they born that way ?,or do they become that way ?
( Of course science now thinks they have a gene, much like the one they found for predispostion to alochol......)
In time no doubt people will be overjoyed to find all of their problems ,or talents were in their genes,just waiting to be discovered.
Too bad for you and me and older generations huh , all this time and we could have really been destined for greater things.
I dont believe in a God who would promote theories that might or could be and oh by the way it wont be offered to everyone because it hasnt been fully discovered yet.
Ok thats another topic.
You really should be more open and objective in your research, and dont believe everything you read.
That last sentence is true BUT how many people actually fit that description? The vast majority of people are capable of distinguishing right from wrong and law and most moralities (including Christian morality) have being responsible for one's self as a cornerstone principle. Most people do base their actions on how they feel about things. The truth of psycopathology does mean that any code should be able to account for variance not only within external actions taken by individuals but also within internal motivations and decision-chains within those same individuals. However the existence of psycopathology is not the same as ubiquity and it shouldn't hold a code hostage out of fear that "one innocent person" will be harmed. No code is perfect as no human being is perfect but humans should strive to be the best and to make their codes the best.
I agree. It has been the narrow-minded, religious, humans who are to blame for most of the world's problems. On this we should be careful not to deceive ourselves.
I kinda agree with you on this! It is narrow minded people who find the nearest excuse they can find to do the things which they want to do that has been the problem throught out time. ... infortunately most often religious ideologies ARE the easiest excuses to accept in their quest to achieve their own personal goals. But that aint Gods fault..
Deception comes from those who claim to know ultimate and absolute truths, like those who believe in gods.
Yes, you "believe" it's wrong, while we "understand" it's wrong. Big difference.
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Nonsense, the Bible was written by men, not a god. By your own logic, their consciences told them it was wrong and they wrote it down.
No need for the Bible then, either.I agree, But sometimes those absolute truths work both ways, Such as some that claim the absolute truth that God does not exist rather than to simply state that there isn't enough evidence to support the existence of God or Gods
In this particular situation, the two are sometimes mistakenly used synonymously with one another and as such not really different (By most Christian definition)
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I agree to a degree, But again once you get away from the stories and the OT judgments used for fear-mongering, the bible does contain good points for living. which aside from the earlier mentioned parts does still make it a decent reference tool. The problem is that a lot of those applications are taught more as a fear tool of doing it to avoid Hell rather than to do it simply because it's the right thing to do. Which does make it a very hard sell for anyone that uses critical thinking to examine the whole book. But it's not totally fair to dismiss the whole book based on the majority of what's contained therein. That's like Generalizing a whole group because of what you've seen of the majority.Or, more precisely, they would state that gods don't exist because everything we understand about the universe and the world around us not only devoid of gods, but is antithetical to the myriad of characteristics, properties, actions and existence of those gods, showing little more equivalency than what can be gleaned from any other myth or superstition.
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Fair enough, but could you also agree that those "good points for living" could just as easily have originated from social evolution as opposed to divine intervention, and in fact are more likely to have evolved than being god given?I can totally agree with everything that you have mentioned. And as such I have gathered that much as well in my analysis of the Bible against non religious books, which is why for me either way, I'm living my life of doing what I feel is the right thing to do because it's the right thing, not because I am afraid of anything else. Because whether I'm right or not, I can still go to my grave with the knowledge that I lived the best life for myself and can be at peace with that.
Seriously, do you really think that if you throw that phrase at me like a lemon wedge wrapped around a gold brick enough times that I'll just magically break down and agree, just to get you to shut up? Because I can't see any other reason for it.
I don't suspect you will agree with reality and that you will make every attempt to get others to "shut up" about it.
Why? I haven't tried to get you to shut up about it, although in another way you (surprisingly) disprove your own point because you're one of the most unreal people I've interacted with.
Yes, I understand reality is "unreal" for you and that anything in the fantasy world of religion would not agree with it.
What I really want to say, I know you won't understand.
Oh, what the heck, if I get banned it's been a good run.
You are such an idiot! You just really didn't get what I was saying at all!
But I actually say that with affection, believe it or not!
I agree completely, it's human nature to believe we know what's best for ourselves, this is even a wise thing unless it pertains to God. I think poeple forget that God can't be figured out completely, He must reveal Himself to us. His ways are higher than our ways and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts. None of us can completely prove the nature of God,the ways of God or even if the Scriptures are true, it takes faith, not blind faith but nonetheless faith.
But, He hasn't revealed Himself, and neither have any of the other gods throughout history.
I can only speak for myself, He's revealed Himself to me.
You and I both know that is not true. No need to lie about such things.
I agree with the statement regarding having a good relationship with others.
I'm hoping you aren't speaking of the old testament as any teaching on how to have a relationship with Him.. If so, You missed even me with that one because I agree with ATM about the tyrancy
And it is the arrogance that is carried that what we want that is best is what's causing a lot of issuesI've argued many times that the OT and the NT are not separated. That does not mean that Christians should be performing the sacrifices (as if that were even possible when there is no Temple) but it does mean that Jesus did more than just fulfill OT prophecy and it's a mistake to dismiss out-of-hand the OT based on perceptions of "tyrancy."
They are not separate I agree, but actually with Christ fulfilling OT prophecy we essentially must turn the page away from that aspect. We are no longer under law, we are under grace. As such, preachers that strictly use OT as anything more than a historical reference are the ones that are pushing others away from the church because of the fear tactics of "Get saved or die!!" being used to force conversion. This is also why we have so many people clinging in desperation of "God will supply all my needs. all I have to do is ask and I will get it" instead of "Faith without works is dead" which means I can trust God all I want, but I have to put in work of my own to get what I need. In other words, A lot of Christians are desperately looking up to God to do things that we should be looking in the mirror to do because We have been empowered to do things for ourselves without the need for God to step in and do them for us.. The OT basically is more of a historical reference book that explains what the culture and life was like before Christ came along. The NT is the more relevant portion of the bible that contains the life principles that are relevant to our lives today.
The OT is certainly a reference book but to look at it almost exclusively in those terms is to miss so much. In many ways the entire fulfillment of prophecy is made richer by an understanding of the OT. There tend to be two schools concerning the OT, either people tend to lean on it too much and forget grace or they tend to talk about grace (which is important, don't get me wrong) as if it never existed in the OT and we can almost do without that book altogether. Neither one is correct.
Grace certainly was in the OT, I agree, but not as prominent nor as prevalent. As a result, it's primary focus is the law (so to speak). With everyone preaching law and condemning under law, grace becomes an afterthought and as such irrelevant. By utilizing the OT the way the majority uses, they instill the mindset that the OT past is the future for all sinners and nonbelievers and that grace and mercy will in no way be extended to them which means it does not endure forever. Rather that it has limitations that are only reserved for Christians only rather then all people that live a generally good and moral life. For a Christian to believe in that ideal leads to an arrogance that is so profound that it causes them to elevate themselves to a position if not of God, then one step below which is an arrogance that will just as quickly leave them surprised as to where they will end up at the time of judgment (if such a judgment will exist, out of respect to my atheist friends here). This ideology is why these debates between most believers and most atheists are so heavy that the debate becomes a black vs white struggle that places every representative of both sides all in one group or the other regardless of their individual perspectives. This leads to the personal attacks and name calling as well as the be all and end all argument from most Christians (I'll pray for you, but you're going to hell!!)
I agree with you and I don't. I've actually been trying to avoid the attacks and name calling (although I'll be the first to admit that I'm not always successful) but, and forgive me if I'm misinterpreting you here, I think you're talking about a sort of Universalism and I don't agree with that. If you define Christians as those who have accepted the gift of Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection, dying for our sins and rising again so that we may share eternal life with Him, then yes, it is only the Christians who will make it onto Heaven. I know that sounds harsh, I've struggled with it. But Jesus makes it pretty clear in His parables that only those who accept Him as king will be in His kingdom.
Now, your point about arrogance is a good one and I agree whole-heartedly. Again, in the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats and the Parable of the Straight and Crooked Paths, Jesus made it pretty clear that a lot of people who think of themselves as "good Christians" will be surprised to find themselves going to the "other place." If anything our realization of what we are and what He's done for us should make us the most humble of all people (and again, I'll be the first to say I often fail there.) But of you really understand (as best as a human can) what God is asking, the definition of "good and moral life" changes, and even if that were the yardstick that God measured us by, many people would fall far short.With all do respect to you, this statement has actually made a very compelling case for atheism. I am not a universalist, but there are some things that are universal. You stated that only Christians will make it into heaven, and you stated that the parables state that only those who accept him as King will enter into his kingdom. As believers, we have been taught that God is all powerful, all knowing, all merciful and full of grace. For believers to state that God is "all powerful, but only for believers" does three things: First and foremost, it shows how totally and utterly arrogant a lot of believers are to simply state that his grace and mercy is only limited to them and not everyone who lives a good and moral life. Secondly, it takes away the true power of God by only limiting his power to a certain group of people. If God is truly all powerful, full of grace, and merciful, then HE has the final say as to who gets into the kingdom. For us to state otherwise diminishes that power and limits his power only to what most believers want him to be. Third, It basically states that we have to depend totally on God in order to Get into heaven, which in itself again diminishes who he is because it means he is saying "worship me, or else". Which would make him (as several atheists have already pointed out) a tyrant. God (If he is real out of respect to my atheist friends)reigns over the just as well as the unjust and his final judgment will be based on the actions of those he is judging as well as what's in the heart
Now you mentioned Jesus parables in the Bible as your source (a good, but flawed source). I remind you that the bible was written by man. I know the rebuttal to this one is "inspired by God". Being "inspired by God" is not the same as "Coming directly from God". Which could actually mean that it could be inspired by man's perception of what an all powerful being should be, which is something to be feared. And looking through that fear, stories of things that occurred could have been exaggerated (remember that not all of the writers in the Bible were actually present during these occurrences. Some of them are retelling stories they heard and expanded them). Also in that misunderstanding of God, people could have also told the stories to suit their own ideas of what SHOULD happen to those who don't believe as they did, but wrote it as if it is what DOES happen to those who believe differently. As a result, God's power has been diminished greatly through the Bible as well as for those who have told the same story over several hundreds of years. God's power Has been limited to what believers WANT God to be instead of what he really is (so to speak). Sorry, The institutionalized version of God is not who God really is, nor is that version of God one that commands respect. If God is all powerful, knowing, present, etc, then that applies to all people that live a generally moral life. and have a good heart despite their beliefs. This is why both atheists and some believers will be surprised as to what happens to them when they face the throne (if there is one to face)
I don't think you are an arrogant person Chris, But I do sense the foundations of Organized religion inside of you. You are a critical thinker, continue to apply it and reexamine the word several timesI've read this several times. You floor me.
It's only an argument for atheism if you lean that way to begin with. Either God is God or He is not. If He is, then how you can come to a conclusion other than "we are dependent on Him for everything" (including Heaven) is beyond me. In fact, more than one atheist has said pretty much that to me. If the God of the Bible exists, then of course we would be. That doesn't mean they believe in Him, it means they understand what they read.
Either the Bible is true or it isn't. Again, if you say that, because it was written by men, then it is flawed, then you might as well say it's pointless. Yeah, there's wisdom in some of it but if none of those things really happened, well hell! I been missing out! Because if we make God all-loving to the point where His power and majesty become less, then we make God less. On this one, I am (in a way) with the atheists. Either the Bible is or it isn't. If it's some wisdom and some foolishness and some self-servingness then it's pointless and I need me a girlfriend.
I think you missed a large portion of my point on both sides. For me to say that it is flawed doesn't mean that it isn't true. It simply means that there could be an exaggeration of the events in question as it relates to how someone else would view a specific occurrence or miracle, if you will. It doesn't mean that it never happened though. This doesn't make anything pointless at all.
There are some elements that can be self serving. If this is what you believe then it can be easy to say that something bad will happen to someone that doesn't believe as you do because you believe that something bad should happen to someone that doesn't believe as you do. (Not you personally, just hypothetically speaking). That's like The crusades, and A lot of Muslim wars. Some of them (SOME, not ALL) believe that anyone who doesn't believe like they do should be killed or should not get the same benefits as they get. But the truth is that no matter what the book says, we truly don't know for sure who will get what. we know what we believe (or what has been instilled in us). But we don't know what will really happen. This is similar to what I was just saying to Getit. Objective reality holds no bias one way or the other.I didn't miss that point at all. I just don't agree with it. The claims that are actually in the Bible make it so that either it's all true or it's all pointless. Once you get to a point where you say "Yeah, I believe in it but" then the slope is short and icy to "How do I know any of this is true?" to "I can't trust which parts are true and which aren't" to "It's all junk."
I know that a lot of people (of all stripes) think that something bad should happen to people who don't believe the way they do. I do on certain points. I believe that people who don't agree with me that rape or murder are wrong should suffer horrible consequences. But when we're talking about hell, that's not a preference of mine. With certain exceptions, I'm not really disposed to think that people "should" go to hell. In fact, that's the whole point of telling people about Jesus, so they won't.
God is objective reality. And He's laid out pretty clearly what "will really happen."
Ah, but do those people who call them selves "christian," try to emulate that "good father" or "good parenting?" Or is it sufficent to just attend church once a week, plead guilty, get forgiven, then just get on with life as before, as though nothing has changed?
Can individual work towards a "good" life just because it IS perceived as good, without the fear-mongering which comes from the teachings of the christian churches?
I see the fear-mongering as the control factor in christianity (and in one or two other religions, of course) which tries to gather followers and keep them there; hook them on the fishing line and eat 'em up.I appreciate your point and believe me (ATM's cynical statement about "buzzwords" notwithstanding) it has been debated in the churches I have attended for many, many years.
Based on my thinking and study and debate about it, I would have to say that simply attending church is not enough. Now I'm hardly alone there, but the whole "spiritual v. religious" debate has gotten out of hand. If you aren't familiar with this and you want me to elaborate I will, but you may already be familiar and/or not care that much about it, and I don't want to bore you.
Okay, let's go point by point:
1) Some do and some don't try to emulate that as best they can. One must, to the best of their ability, try to understand their faith and beliefs because if you're just passing along "going through the motions" then you not only lose out on a real relationship with God yourself but you rob your kids and other people of the same thing. A lot of stuff in the 60's centered around this very point.
2) Although the church might be percieved as "fear-mongering" and yes, sometimes they are, the stuff is still in the Bible. Hell is there, punishment, damnation, whatever you want to call it. Having said that, the whole "relationship with God" that I keep referencing IS the good life and yes, an individual can most certainly work toward that simply because it is. The fact is that if you're working toward having good relations with God and your fellow men, you don't need to worry about the punishments.
3) A lot of ways to respond to that but let me say this: it's hardly unique to religion. Politics, work environments, the necessity of following the laws even if you think they're stupid, even going to school all involve this principle at some time and to varying degree. But also some of us do think about what it means to have that relationship with God. IMHO, that's more important.
Sorry if this is a little rambling and incoherent. I didn't realize how late it is.1) The problem with this statement is that a large majority of Christians don't truly understand their faith, not even the ones that are in positions of leadership. They are preaching the same motions for others to go through because they themselves have not gone back to really examine and understand the bible to match certain principles with proper definition of the words and examining context for certain scriptures relative to life. It is the blind leading the uneducated, which (As ATM, Rad, and other atheists have so eloquently and correctly pointed out) leads to an even bigger influx of the stupid people that continually pass judgment on them and anyone else that don't believe the same way as they do which leads them to throw out the Hell fire threat and to misuse scriptures like "casting pearls before swine and shaking the dust from your feet"
2) The stuff is in the Bible, but it was written by man. People that say it was "inspired by God" really miss the point that being inspired by something does not mean that it is directly coming from that actual source. It could also me being inspired by a PERCEPTION of what that they feel that source should bee (in this case a force so powerful that it should be feared). A lot of Christians are Christians born out of fear rather than love which leads them to do a lot of silly stuff "in the name of God" rather than follow Christ's examples of love, helping your fellow man, and tolerance of differences without passing judgment. A lot of Christians use the bible like a weapon trying to force it down others throats even after they state they aren't interested rather than pass along the information then moving on.
3) A lot of people do think about what it's like to have that relationship, but more of them still keep that "I don't want to go to hell" thinking in the back of their head and it is that fear that keeps people from making certain decisions to do things that are still moral, but may slide to the edges of that morality. Like painting yourself into a corner without recognizing that the paint can dry and you can still walk over it.I enjoy your posts ,at least you use creative thinking to express your thoughts.
I agree that going to church does not make anybody anything in particular,and in fact many scriptures highlight that God is not interested in outward appearances but more in the motives or change for 'right' or righteousness, a life or heart that seeks to be humble and serve others and not ones own ego.
With regard to the OP ,I do think removing God ( ie a higher power) from any establishment is risky and open to unstable interpretation.
Being accountable to God gives me security not fear.The atheist will agree that he is creative, but remind that creative thinking does not equal critical thinking
Are you trying to say that I'm not thinking critically?
LOL? Oh yes, and a church setting is certainly NOT a biased setting for such a debate.
Maybe, but most certainly, we have to worry about eternal punishments from your "father" figure if we don't worship Him, no matter how much we would work towards having good relations with our fellow man.
I wonder how many actual fathers would punish their children for an eternity for not having "good relations" with him.
What's your answer to that one, Chris?Your point? At least there the issue is actually discussed. With you, more often than not, once it gets to a place where I keep pointing out that I don't fit your preconceived parameters you simply shift the paradigm. (Me = "I didn't say that and I don't think that and I've said it before. My situation doesn't fit that." You = "I very much doubt that." In other words, if you can't force me to accept your "logic" you call me a liar. Class.)
My first answer is that at least this time you're actually asking a question.
My second one is that you've simply reinforced my point. I said that if we ARE working towards a good relationship with God and man (active and/or positive) we don't need to worry about the punishments. Implicit in that statement is that if we AREN'T working toward those goals (passive and/or negative) we do need to worry about them.Shift paradigms? LOL. What is that supposed to mean. I have not shifted from the fact you've been indoctrinated into your religion.
That is a non-answer. It does not answer the question at all.
Here, try again...
"I wonder how many actual fathers would punish their children for an eternity for not having "good relations" with him?"Here's let's try again. You ask a question, I answer the question, you don't like the answer. At that point you either a) call me a liar or b) say I haven't answered the question. If you get creative you c) do both and then make fun of me saying that I'm being an evasive liar when I point out that I did answer the question and I'm not lying. See a pattern here? Since you are, you know, you, probably not but I sure do.
To directly answer your question, How many fathers even have that capability? And is that really all there is to the equation?Not at all. It's just whether you can deal with the answer I gave.
I don't deal with non-answers, I ignore them.
You don't deal with answers either if you don't like them. You re-classify them and then act as if you were ignoring them.
Now we are entering an area where we should agree to disagree and move on to the next topic. I understand you think anything that has to do with God is baloney and as such this is why I don't discuss my personal beliefs with atheists in general nor a lot of believers in most cases. Ultimately, this most recent statement in an otherwise engaging conversation (which I have enjoyed immensely) has confirmed some things in my mind. But this has been an excellent conversation
I can understand the areas where this statement would apply. And I can certainly agree that this is how the bible portrays God and also how a lot of people who seek to manipulate others into their way of thinking most certainly corroborate those parts of the bible. But if you can look past those parts as well as the storied in the beginning (which were written by people that wither were not there and are trying to develop a reductionist explanation for something more complex or by people repeating stories they were told and expanding them without having first hand knowledge.. yes, I said it). There are actually some good guidelines for living the best life possible (guidelines that can be found in any other secular book.. I know). Because of this, I again can say that I am open to the possibility that I could be wrong about the existence of God and I view my belief as more of an optimistic opinion rather than an absolute certainty, but if God is real, We do not need him as much as most Christians preach and evangelize that we do. Some depend on God wayyyyyyyyy more than is necessary.
Again, I enjoyed this conversation and look forward to the next ones.Interestingly enough, all the other gods purported to exist have the very same baloney factor, unless of course, you believe they all exist, too.
Unfortunately, that isn't possible because they play very important roles in understanding the way people acted and behaved back then, which is basically all the Bible portrays, our ignorant and delusional past.
Unfortunately, if there are any, they are overwhelmingly irrelevant in stark contrast to the irrational demands and blatant atrocities committed by God.I disagree. It is possible to look past certain parts of it. My concern isn't with the behaviors of the people back then. It is good to understand past cultures, But like the song goes, Times they are a-changing
Any guideline for living the best way you can can't be irrelevant. Those guidelines are valid even today. You, yourself live by those guidelines daily.. Just you got your guidelines from other books. In order for me to elaborate on that one, I would have to pull some scriptures and match them to basic everyday principles, which would only bore you since you dismiss the whole thing based on the majority of what's contained therein.Try taking your logic one step further to realize that scriptures were written by men and most likely the "basic everyday principles" were already being practiced and they just wrote it all down with the irrational belief those principles were god given. Hence, the principle origins were that of social evolution and not divinely obtained.
I actually mentioned that in one of my other answers on either this forum or another one..My logic has already considered this as well, Which is again why I say I am open to the fact that it could be wrong. A lot of Christians love to stress that the bible was "inspired by God" while forgetting that "inspired by" is not the same as "coming directly from"
Does this not then give you an explanation or rationalization as to why it's imperfect?
That's what I've been trying to say for a long time Rad Man regarding my own personal beliefs. Trouble is that I think with a lot of my posts, some have still been trying to lump me in with some of the other believers on here. Throughout most of my points, I have stated repeatedly that my belief in God is more of an optimistic opinion rather than an absolute certainty.
But because it is imperfect doesn't mean that it should be summarily be dismissed as total rubbish. because SOME of the principles contained in the bible can be found in secular books as well. It cannot be rubbish in the bible yet true and useful in non-religious books.But this also again does not mean that It's not true, just the perception of what really happened was totally screwed up because fear of the unknown makes the spider bigger than what it really is (metaphorically speaking)
This is a good post of yours, Deepes, so just one point I would like to add..... the bible could be correct about the Christ coming back, "before I die," if we see it as metaphor.... analogous to a rebirth, i.e., when "I at last get to look fully into my self, my own existence, my own responsibilities and connections with every one else...... honestly and with love in my heart,..." then and only then will this Christ come into my life. It's got nothing to do with something happening in the distant future, or something which is waiting for the demise of my physical body. It's NOW, in my self, in my hands, to make this happen.
The BS of the bible is preached by those who have stopped looking inside of themselves and prefer to venture into the business of other people.
Please excuse me, that is more than one point, I know.....Excellent points Jonny!! and points that actually kind of reflect where I am in my life at this point. I admittedly used to follow the same mentality that other believers have or had at one point or other. I accepted what I was told without question and in my arrogance i followed the ideals that anyone that didn't believe in God was going to Hell. Luckily for me, I stopped going to church from my early teens til my early 20's. When I went back, I heard so much that sounded wrong to me that I sought the information for myself. What I found was mind blowing. I had been getting it all wrong for years. Don't get me wrong, I still believe in God, Just differently from other believers. But my belief is more of an optimistic belief rather than an absolute certainty. Because of this, I am open to the idea that I could be wrong. I have an issue with organized religion myself. I feel that you cannot apply a blanket doctrine to what is supposed to be an individualized concept. This is why I have so much respect for atheists. You live the life that we all should be living: one that is free from total dependence on God. As I stated before, God the bible contains principle for living the best life possible (once you get past the early foolishness and myths as well as the fear tactical points and dig into the life application aspects of it). The only difference is that you think for yourself and act independently because you do not follow something that there is no evidence for, while I think and act independently because the bible states that God empowered me to do the things for myself that people keep begging him to do for them. Even the bible states that at the end God (if there is one) will have the final say so and it will be strictly between you and him what happens to you and it will be based on how you lived your life and what's in your heart. With this thinking, I expect that there will be a lot of believers that may find themselves surprised at his decision regarding them (again if everything in the bible regarding judgment is correct).
Because of this, I try to be objective (or at least equally biased...LOL) with some of my responses here and try to be as respectful of others beliefs (or lack thereof out of respect to atheists) whether they are respectful of mine or not. If I feel that my beliefs aren't respected, I simply respectfully withraw myself from further discussion. I have tried to separate myself as a believer from some of the other believers here because Despite the common belief in God, I think some of them take it wayyyyy too far.
Regardless of whether or not it's a "god-less" country, maybe it's because that country, Sweden, has gone through its own unique history; it's fought its particular battles, without and within; the people have evolved together and continue to evolve through continuing experiences, both positive and negative.
I suggest any country which, right now, considers itself a country that is close to "God," would do well to lift it's general knowledge of other people and other places in the world. Do this without the ulterior intention of evangelising those other people, but just get to know them. Get to know them just for who they are. Don't do it for the purpose of commercial gain. Don't do it to convert them. Don't do it just so that you can bully them. Learn where those other countries are in terms of geography. Learn their histories.
In short, get away from the idea that your country is "God's" gift to the world. It's not! Nor are its people! You simply have to evolve together instead of against the internal factions. Take some lessons from Sweden. Doesn't matter whether you believe there is a god or not.
What about the school shooting in Bremen, Germany in 1913 at St. Mary's Catholic School, where an unemployed teacher killed 5 little girls and wounded 20 others?
Or what about the Amish school shooting on Oct. 2, 2006 in Pennsylvania?
The secular world gets religion and Christianity mixed up. Being a Christian means we have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. The savior of the world. He died for our sins so we could live and not die in our sin and perish in eternal damnation. To go before God the Father we need Jesus and we ask Him into our heart, we repent of our sin and Jesus comes in to do the heart work. Sin becomes less appealing we still sin we are all sinners all except Jesus Christ. Sin becomes less appealing I repeat Gods grace and mercy on all of the world removes the sin from His children and remolds and reshapes us in HIS image. We are created in the image of God. Every man is born with a sense to want to know God. It is a hole in our heart. Only Jesus fills it. Nothing else will do not religion, not money, not drugs, sex alcohol, good deeds, or good works. do not get us into heaven. WE all sin we need a Savior Jesus that is why he came to die so we could live and not perish in our sin.
Religion which God hates is mans dogma. Men will twist scripture to itch ears and suit everyones needs.They add there own words of laws for whatever purpose.. To belong to Jesus we only need to believe in Him and repent of sin. He does the rest. Why do people blame GOD? How could they blame the creator for all the misery. Why dont they look int the mirror and see they need a savior? Sin kills us!
Many change Gods word. There are many in the church of whatever (religion) that say they are Christians SOME Christians do attend a certain religion church that does honor and love Jesus.The dogma is not necessary in Gods eyes. Jesus is the only requirement to salvation. No one else will do. Many do not hear the truth as in the word of GOD because it is not taught. God has not changed or altered text. God is no respecterctor of people.. He is the same. Many religions have ttheri own god. Buddah, Mohamad, hira gira, the tooth fairy, unitarian any god gets you there, tarot cards, good fairy. There are thousands of different religions. There is only one Jesus who walked on water and performs miracles and died on the cross for our sins so we could have life and more abundant life and not perish in our sin.. There is only one Jesus who defeated the devil for us on the cross. He only wants our love.
The devil ONLY comes to steal kill and destroy. He roams the earth to devour and decieve many. He has decieved many. He has used the word religion to mess up man. The devil is tricky and church buildings are a domain of his, a major domain. The devil lies. Many behind the pulpit lie telling the church what it wants to hear. Why for greed for fame? IT is working well. Gods wrath will come on those that do not teach HIS Truth. Jesus warns us of false profits. Jesus is the only one that gets us into heaven and forgives our sin and cleanses us.
Jesus loves you He loves all people. It is our choice on who we will follow. The god of this world Satan who is the enemy of our soul or Jesus Christ the son of God who died for our sins so we could be saved and have abundant life and eternal life. God did not do any evil to us. When we shine GOD on what do we expect? The devil is in his glory when people blame GOD. God does not force us into submission. His Love is a choice. He gives us grace and mercy indeed!!! Plenty of it. He will turn us over to our own iniquity if he chooses. HE IS GOD. Jesus is a choice we all must make in this lifetime. Who will we follow? The God of Salvation, Jesus Christ or the enemy of the world and prince of darkness, Satan. THE LIGHT ALWAYS PUTS OUT THE DARK. We do not just pass from this planet we will die we move on to eternity. There are two sides in eternity. Love, Skye. God Bless you girl, I pray you choose Jesus. I know HE saves, He saved a wrench like me. I am so grateful. There is no love that will ever love you more or understand more or care more or take care of you more. Jesus rules. Not becasue I earned it or that I am good but because HE is good and He loved me first. Jesus loves you.nightwork, I believe your question is flawed. You insinuate that since evil happens there must be no god; that, at least a good &/or caring, god would not let this happen. The flaw is two fold: you use a moral standard to weigh God's actions and yet where does your standard come from if not from a conscience God gave you? Perhaps society told you what the standard should be... or you just know what's right based upon...?
The other flaw is assuming God does (did in this case) nothing to curtail additional terrible things that might happen to us... and to only cast blame for the bad and give no credit for good that happens to mankind as whole, or even in particular circumstances.How much man letting this happen? What happened to our free will? Just remember that God is fighting a huge battle with Satan who actually owns the world. If a big chunk of the world follows Satan, and most do indirectly by putting themselves first, who can God fight that without infringing our free will?
Why would God allow ANY evil? What is He to do? Strike Adam Lanza dead? Kill all corrupt politicians? How would the earth function?So your all powerful all knowing God effectively has no power. According to you he created the universe, but is weaker then the devil.
God is not weaker than satan by no means what so ever, if you don't believe in God I don't understand why even satan knows there is a God, before you go slashing Gods name like that you need to research, and there are a lot of knowledge out there that some people don't understand.
I'm just trying to understand what she said. She said God was battling Satin. I don't see how an all powerful and all knowing God has to battle anyone. Should be like taking broccoli from a baby?
The only thing I can figure in the Christian narrative is that God supposedly created humans with the free will to accept or reject him and placed them where temptation for evil (sin?) is constant and instead of destroying these temptations he has decided to see what we are made of..... I don't see it as a battle between him and the devil. If this is all true, I see it as a battle between humans and the devil, while God stands by idly, awaiting the outcome. For it appears that even though grace is a free gift it appears it is not free because temptation is so powerful that it is easier for humans to accept immediate gratification rather than waiting for the process of gold-paved streets.
But I could be wrong...Oh I see. The all powerful all knowing God has thrown us to the wolves. To bad he doesn't just use some of his knowledge of the future to see how this plays out instead of allowing all this suffering. Sounds like a cop out to me.
That is just the way I read it... I'm not saying it's true.... but I feel I'm out here with the wolves as you say...
While what you said is mostly true temptation is everywhere and it is a battle between us and satan , he preys on our weakness, but whenever there is temptation there is a way out of it, we are not perfect we aren't expected to be, that's why Jesus died for our sins, is so we can be forgiven. All you have to do is ask thats the promise that was made to us, and God never breaks a promise, you would not want Gods knowledge, and if you look to the future all you have to do is read your bible, and it's all there. I'm not giving a bible lesson and you don't have to believe me, but I want you to go to the book store, and go into the religious section, and read the holy bible, the war in heaven, and angels and demons, this will give a better picture of things, and ask for help because the bible can be confusing and seem a little contradictive.
Amen. And it's bad that it has come to where many people in our world believe that BEING a TRUE christian is just about bearing the title and going to church and then not sincerely surrendering to obeying the Lord. "Christian" has a root word: Christ. It's about living and thinking in the same heart and lifestyle of Jesus Christ. ***NOT TRYING TO FORCE-FEED YOU MINE OR ANYONES BELIEFS HERE***. God made man in His likeness and image (Gen 1:26,27) clearly meaning we were all made to act and think and live God's way; then satan throws in the lie that since men are evil, that God is evil since we are made in His image. Jesus loves everybody, even people who do shootings in schools. He loves the PERSON but not the ACTIONS. There is absolutely no convincing me otherwise that God isn't fair, mercyful and love; Because for God to willingly give up His Son Jesus to be treated worse than dirt and to die for MY sins shows that He IS love most indeed. For God to be as cruel as some people percieve Him to be and yet He gave His Son for a world that never cared for Him, clearly proving He loves us by making Him suffer for virtually every sin committed in every which way by every single person who has and will exist on this earth. His sacrifice is grace. He is grace, because we all are forgiven in Christ Jesus, so in response and gratitude we cease all sin in the life and mind and desires and live His way. He died to save FROM sin, not to save IN sin; meaning He did not die to bear our sins so that we can all sin willfully everafter. We ourselves may be the only Jesus anyone will ever see, and thats one of the big reasons people hate God: because of claiming Him, then knowlingly and intentionally living like mindless animals.
God can't be hated. Religion and people can be hated, but it's impossible to hate something that doesn't exist.
I too have stated this, but it seems that some people have such tunnel vision that they will not be discouraged from their psychotic rants..
That's not true. It may be misplaced emotion, but it is truly possible to hate imaginary or unreal things.
Of course, God is not an imaginary being, but that's beside the point of your statement.I think you just admitted, for a moment, that your God is not real...but the cognitive dissonance was just too much. Wasn't it?
You know, as soon as I wrote it I knew that someone would attempt to make that connection. But the connection is not there. I made a general, and rather generic statement. Any specifics made by anyone are not made or implied by the author.
But God knows your real heart, brother...and He knows you don't really believe He's real, because He's omniscient, and you can try to fool Him all you want, but you can't, because He knows EVERTHING...
1 John 3:20~~for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.Every once in a while, a piece of sarcasm becomes so muddled and self-defeating that it is truly awesome to behold.
I have no idea if you're trying to say I don't believe in God (which I do,) but glorious messes can still be glorious.
Yes, just like it's possible to hate characters from books or movies. People do it all the time.
Do people actually hate the tooth fairy? Generally no, but possibility and probability are two different things.I'm not so sure Chris, can we have real emotions towards fairy tale characters? I have no real emotions towards any fictitious characters. I can dislike the concept or characteristics but I can't hate or love scar from the lion king because he's not real.
It's still possible. That doesn't mean that everyone will do it or even that everyone can. It may not even be a truly common experience. It's still possible.
Yep!! I can't stand that heifer. my body is valuable even the stuff I lose.. She stole my teeth and only gave me at most a buck for them?? that's a raw deal
Sure did.. That so and so fairy still found them. I guess the fifty cents or dollar was her way of apologizing.. lol
When I was a kid I could get a coke and chocolate bar with 50 cents.
If it's true that you can't hate something you say doesn't exist than that means you can't love something that doesn't exist. You can't see love but you can feel it, just because you can't see or touch something doesn't mean it don't exist. Take the air we breath you can't feel it or see it but it's there.
Actually love is a great example about the argument for or against God in the way that if you can't prove it, does it exist?
Example is, if you love your mother, can you prove it? If not, does that mean you don't love your mother.
Of course, you better know if that person even likes their mother before you ask that question! lolBut the air we breath technically has a chemical composition and as such can be proven to exist as it is the air that sustains us
Deepes you always seem to be on my side. You'd make a good atheist. I'm kidding of course, you seem like a perfectly good person. Your value as an atheist or Christian is irrelevant.
Thanks.. I try to be proactive in what I have learned from you and other atheists. Your are just as valuable as an atheist as I am as a Christian. I am no better than you and do not wish to be. I try as much as possible to stay neutral and objective in debates although my views and beliefs lean on one side rather than the other. You seem to be a good person as well. The only difference between our general philosophy in life is our belief (or lack thereof in your case) of God.
You can love something you think exists, but I can't love the tooth fairy because I know it's not real. Can you hate or love the tooth fairy?
I'm sorry you feel that way, I hope you can change your mind about God. I really do!
Just a thought has crossed my mind reading this: We only know air "is there" because science has shown us, proved to us, that it's there (here). Before the science was done, beliefs galore told us so many other explanations.
You state that you are not FORCE FEEDING your beliefs to anyone. GOOD!!! Because these beliefs read just like complete fictitious nonsense.
And just lay the blame on the people who don't follow your ridiculous beliefs. How arrogant. This gun violence issue really needs something more than the ramblings of religious delusional minds, trying to supply a simple, and psychotic answer to a complex problem.
The Suburban Poet: You commented that God would give us freewill to choose him and placed us in a world of temptation. Now, he is standing back and watching us, abandoning us, instead of just eliminating the problem. As Rad Man stated it "thrown us to the wolves." I know farther down Claire has attempted to explain why just eliminating the problem doesn't work.
As a parent, I face one teenager about to leave the nest. Teenagers are convinced they know everything and they don't need to be told by their parents how to do things anymore. Their way, their belief, is 100% right and the parent is 100% wrong. We are just old farts with old ways that are so outdated and no longer useful. (a 2000 year old outdate fiction work is the comment I believe I read) We could attempt to force them into what we want, but it doesn't work. We could hold their hands, bend the world to fit them, or just take care of whatever comes along, (eliminating the problem) but they will not learn from that. A 18 year old who is responsible to get herself to school on time, but never seems to do it, will not benefit from parents doing the job for her or the school bending her schedule, but to make the mistake, suffer the consequences, and learn from it. Is a parent to allows their child suffer through the consequences mean the parent has thrown their child to the wolves (I am not trying to pick on the comment, but it is just the simplest phrase used to explain that point of view.) or abandon them?
God is much the same way. Eliminating our problems doesn't make us into better people or a better society no different then spending our time on here debating about who is wrong and who is right rather then starting with what we do agree and deciding that we are going to have a discussion without attacking. And attacking is just a Christian problem or an unbeliever problem, but an everyone problem. Just as we watch our children going through facing temptations and noting want to shelter them, God watching us face temptations and doesn't want to shelter us. Some of the worst suffering and pain and temptation that I have faced in my life as been the place where I have learned the most. Instead of taking that bitterness and using it as a weapon, I have been able to use it to make me a better person. If it wasn't for the temptation, pain, or suffering, I would not be the person I am.
God also doesn't abandon us in these. I have seen the repeated story about a teen girl who had ran away from home. The typical view that she could do it better, didn't want to be told what to do, ect. When thing got bad, she wanted to go home, but didn't because she was afraid her dad would reject her. Yet, word finally got to her from her dad that all was forgiven to just come home. Her dad didn't abandon her, but she had to make the choice to go home. God is much the same way. There, but we have to make the choice. We have to make the choice to "go home."...that is a good explanation AMBeery
God is battling Satan for our souls. God can stand alone but Satan cannot.
What battle are you talking about that an all powerful all knowing God can't win? All he has to do is reveal himself as he has done in the bible. There is no battle Claire, prayer doesn't work.
He will reveal Himself when a certain time comes. There's know doubt about that. Certain events need to happen before this event.
Prayer doesn't work? So you know the ins and outs of everyone's lives?
No, it is mankind who has given Satan power. Without that, he would be nothing. I'd like you to know what God should do to stop evil? Strike people dead? When we say a mean word, ought He give us an electric shock? What are your suggestions?
Is the God you believe in completely powerless? What power does he have? Can he feed the poor by growing crops in the desert? Can he make all guns and weapons disappear? Can he stop pedophiles from destroying lives? What power does he have Claire?
He has powerful in the lives of those who love Him and I can say it is great power. And can God interfere in the affairs of those who don't especially when evil attempts to tear down His efforts? People have given the power to Satan which makes Him the dominant force in this world.
Can He stop paedophiles? How? By interfering in their free will? By striking them dead? By MAKING them stop feeling this way? How about people start taking responsibility for their own lives.
Can He make all guns disappear? Sure He can but what would that achieve? People will found other ways to commit violence. Do you see how unpractical this is? It would be full of a world with God dictating the moves of others. We'd be nothing more than robots.
God can make crops grow but evil people can take possession away from them and the poor starve.That's what I thought, completely powerless. Can't and doesn't want to stop pedophiles. Sorry Claire that's pathetic, allowing pedophiles to ruin lives because he doesn't want to interfere. I know I'd interfere, as would most I hope. Should I be more like your God and just watch and shake my head? Don't blame Gods impotence on Satin.
That's something you need to sort out with Him one day.
Can he make all the guns and weapons disappear? By weapons, I am going to guess that you mean anything that can hurt anyone? So, God gets rid of guns, knives, axes, chainsaws, ect, but does he also get rid of every person including you. Your words attack and hurt others because they disagree with you so because they hurt others then they are a weapon making you a weapon. Does that mean that your believe that God is only powerful if he has the ability to come down here and get rid of you? Are you basing your belief that God is powerless because he doesn't come down here and get rid of you? Or, does using you words as a weapon don't count? And if that doesn't count, what else doesn't count? Your request that he get rid of pedophiles... pedophiles is a kind of abuse so is it the abuse he is to get rid of or just that certain kind of abuse? You have physical, mental, verbal... a whole list or are we back to picking and choosing which is the great evil to get rid of and the lesser evil to stay? I think that by the time that he fill the request for weapons and abuse, there wouldn't be much left and therefore feeding the poor by growing crops in the desert would be unnecessary. If anyone manged to still exist, there would be plenty of food for them.
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?" - EpicurusIt seems like perplexing contradictions which Epicurus presents, but the answer is rather elementary when one realizes who God is and how He has involved mankind in the development of the world and society. God created man with freewill, at times man has used freewill to choose to do evil, God has granted man time to choose good and to choose His will though will bring justice to evil in the end. God is both able and willing, but allows man to choose because God loves people and did not create robots (or cyborgs in this case, because it would be flesh over an endoskeleton of metal with a cpu neural-net processor). Putting all the blame on God in order to either dismiss Him or to try and get rid of Him is hardly profitable, especially when the blame should fall to us (mankind) to understand that our flaws are to blame… trying to place blame on our Creator, the One who sacrificed Himself for us (namely Jesus Christ), and who has our best interest in mind is not only counterproductive, but points away from the answer to which we must turn.
Correction: ...Man has involved god-kind in the development of the world and society.
No, it was correct the first time.
I've quoted it before, "In the beginning God made man, and man has been trying to repay the compliment ever since!"Sorry Chris, I was not quoting anyone else.... just my point of view.
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you were quoting someone else. I was just giving what I thought was a slightly humorous quote to illustrate my point of view.
We can't blame someone that is not there. You tell how God has given us society, but then say he lets us do whatever we want, this takes away credit for humanity and dissolves your God from any wrong doing. You say he has the power an will to protect us but loves us and want us to do it on our own. Isn't that a great way to hid the fact that he's not intervening and just watches the suffering?
In other words, if God were to be the very sort of all-controlling dictator that is so often decried, then He would be God. But if He won't be what we don't want Him to be, then all bets are off.
Did you just call me a weapon that God should take care of? Because that's all I got out of that post.
If God is to get rid of weapons, then how to do you define a weapon?
Artificially-crafted instruments and/or tools used for the purpose of physical combat?
Therefore, the simple materials, materials that are used for other purposes outside physical combat, that can be pick up from a store and used to create a bomb doesn't count as a weapon?
Any weapon that can kill a bunch of innocent children will do. Don't you think? Let's call the murderer a weapon as well. Why didn't God stop him? A bolt of lightning on a nice sunny day would have been cool. The authorities find him attempting to get into the school with an assault weapon, dead after being hit by lightning on a sunny day. How's that? Show me his power?
I understand what you are trying to say. It's horrible, but it's also a limited view. You want to get rid of the weapon, the person you consider the weapon, as well as the above comments about the poor and a specific kind of abuse. But, does that mean that you don't include anything else? Expand that out to all forms of weapons, the people who use them, or even all forms of abuse, what do you have left?
I'm not sure I understand your position here? I'm asking for evidence of Gods power because most claim that their God is all powerful and all knowing. I know I would have if I had your Gods abilities prevent those children from that horror. Don't tell me that God doesn't know where to stop so he doesn't start. Nonsense.
As far as weapons (object or person), the want to have some or all of them eliminated causes questions and concerns far outside just a need for justification over horrible and tragic situations: situations I would have loved to stop too. The focus on these tragic situations provides only a limited view when asking for evidence of God's power. With a limited view, the request for proof would never provide satisfaction because it would never be considered proof or enough proof. The request for evidence of God power because he doesn't cure these problems, doesn't include the ramifications or contradictions of the whole. It also doesn't include the long term outcome. Rejecting all evidence because they don't see what evidence they want to see, such as demanding God to come down and stop this tragic shooting as proof he is powerful, just makes a person illogical.
Rejecting all evidence? I haven't seen ANY evidence. If you claim your God to be all powerful and all knowing you should be able to produce SOME evidence to back up this claim. I'll pay attention when you show me some evidence and then I'll decide if it's enough, you can leave that part to me thank you very much.
To interject, what this person is trying to say is that if God is going to get rid of some things that cause evil then He should get rid of anything else that causes misery.
We have ALL done something wrong. Now for God to remain consistent He should eliminate everything that spawns negativity and evil. That includes vaporizing us when we say or do something we shouldn't.No only when we are about to walk into a school with an assault weapon and murder as many children as possible before killing ourselves. A sign, any sign would be nice.
No, God must dish out punishment to all those who sin and that is all of us. Sin is sin. Small sin may lead to bigger sin. When you say a mean word, God must vaporize you. Why should you get special treatment?
If I sin by taking in a little spirit now and again, when god vapourizes me he better look out! It can explode in your face!
The most exciting thing in the world is a good sin! Boosts one's health no end!Contrary to what is commonly stated by many Christians, not all that brings pleasure or joy is sinful. Especially since God Himself is supposed to be the greatest joy of our lives.
Have fun now and again, jonny. Have a drink on me. Shoot, have one for me.
Do you have children Claire? Would you vapourise them if they said a mean word to you?
Nope. And thankfully God is one of mercy and wouldn't do so either. He would indeed correct us and discipline us.
But if God wasn't a merciful God, he'd have vaporized us LONG BEFORE NOW - and not because we 'spoke a bad word.'
Absolutely not! God wouldn't, either.
I'm trying to explain to Radman that if God should kill paedophiles to prevent them from committing their evil then He ought to be consistent and strike down anyone who commits sin regardless of the magnitude. I'm hypothetically speaking here.
Because thankfully, God is far more intelligent and far more level-headed, and ultimately far more merciful than we human beings are.
The only people, for example, who throw away a brand new automobile because of a scratch in the paint are those for whom nothing holds any real value. Otherwise, they repair the tiny problem and move on.
We have great value to God. He does not discard us. He repairs us. All we need to do is show up at the shop.Are they the same to you Claire? Walking into a school with an assault weapon and murdering 20 or so little ones and a few adult = a few mean words?
I'm just looking for a sign that there is in fact a God. The guy getting hit by a lightning bold while breaking into the school on a sunny day would have been nice. Don't you think? Who here among us wouldn't try to stop him?Honestly! Honestly! Folks. Why oh why must people be so ridiculous about "sin." Why talk about it in relation to a theoretical "god" "Up There" somewhere, and give the whole subject much more attention than it deserves? How can such talk benefit ANY of us here, or even the world in total?
Where did the common sense understanding go to?
If I do something that affects my neighbour in a harmful or negative way, that is something I should not be doing. If I have done it, then it is my DUTY to repair that harm somehow.
It's a debt which I owe my neighbour..... him or her specifically. If my action has also harmed others in the process, like the neighbour's children, etc., then I have a duty to them also. This has NOTHING to do with that god of belief. This is a purely practical requirement for us living together, as neighbours.
If we could follow this process, we would really be benefiting ourselves as well as the community. In fact the legal service, the police, the community infrastructural set-ups are aimed at just this outcome. Instead, we fight those facilities and enter the Blame Game. It's easier and more exciting to look away from our own responsibilities than face up to them fair and square.
Claire, who is your neighbour there? Is he/she black skinned? Is he/she a drug addict? Is he/she a person that's "not nice to know?" Or do you shut yourself in your computer room and ignore ANY of your neighbours?
There is no god worrying about your "sin." It's you that has to control your life and do the right thing by the community, that's all.You didn't get my drift. Should God turn a blind eye to evil just because it is a tweeny weeny sin? So small sin is acceptable to Him but not serious ones like murder? NO ONE with even the slightest bit of sin can enter the kingdom of heaven.
You think that a guy being hit by a lightning bolt while breaking into a school on a sunny day would be a sign from God? Which God? That wouldn't prove Allah, Jesus, Khrisna, etc. I might add that it is possible for lightning to strike on a sunny day.
http://news.discovery.com/earth/weather … 110729.htm
Can you imagine if God tried to stop everyone doing anything bad. We do bad things quite often. Can you imagine the chaos? Whenever a politician lies, he falls into a coma, when someone steals their hand drops off.
It's an amazing thing you think like this. When God supposedly wiped out most of humanity because of the evil they had done you claim He is a sick evil bastard.This is very interesting to me Claire. I'm pretty sure the punishment should meet the crime. Mean words or lies while not illegal deserve an appropriate punishment don't you think? Perhaps a public apology will do. Murdering twenty little children is in fact illegal and requires a more severe punishment. Life in prison, death, take your pick. If given the chance I hope I would have tried to stop him and I'm not pretending to be brave, just human.
Sorry Claire I just don't see a God in this story, if this kid as I've said stuck by a bolt of lightning while breaking in it would open my eyes to the possibility, sure there could be other explanation, but it would have prevented those parents from grieving the lose of their babies and made us wonder.
As for the flood story we both know that never happen, but if it had and God killed every living thing on the planet (except for a few) out of anger, he'd have to be a pretty cruel God now wouldn't he?Rad, I totally get what you're saying. Human nature being what it is, however, I don't think that even THIS would make someone consider the possibility of God who has already decided that He does not exist. Say Adam Lanza HAD been struck by lightening on his way into the school. Just because he had weapons on him, would the automatic assumption have been that he was on his way in to kill children? Probably not, but even so, someone may have assumed he was on his way in to kill someone. At best, I think the response would have been - wow, someone in there dodged a bullet today...and life would have gone on as usual for all involved. People just don't see what they're not looking for.
I agree, but those children would have been spared and allowed to grow up and those parents would be happen again. Sure an all powerful God could give us a sign, like cure all cancer in one afternoon and take credit for it.
I agree.
So the questions then are: Is God not all powerful? Does he allow these things to happen as part of a plan we may never understand? Does God even exist at all?
I can follow the progression of thought for sure. I follow it to a different conclusion is all.
If it makes you feel better, even those of us who believe in God ask these questions all the time.I don't know about that, it seems many people say they have the answers. Some even claim to be having direct dialogue with God, but don't seem to ask these questions of God.
Oh...then maybe they truly are either delusional or lying...or they simply have not matured enough in their faith to understand that they will not be struck down where they stand for doubting God.
I shared with a dear friend of mine last night (who is not a believer) that I've struggled with my faith. These are my words:
"There are circumstances in my life that have made me doubt my faith. I've abandoned it more than once. I've tried to convince myself I was crazy, it was stupid, it was all a big cosmic joke." All that said, it absolutely will not leave me.
Maybe others have never struggled this way. If that is the case, I would like to tell them to thank the Lord every day. Most of us don't walk a gilded path with no obstacles on the way to heaven.I just explained why I let me kids go to a Catholic school on another thread. Catholics are not like fundamentalists. They haven't been taught that every doubt is the devil trying to get you.
Jesus was not spared suffering. He was put to death. Why does everyone take Satan out of the equation? Those responsible for Sandy Hook were Satanic. Of course Satan's power is going to override any attempts from God. If people work for Satan, they give him power. If God finds a cure for cancer through another person someone who serves Satan can murder that person and withhold it from the public.
It is not just God we are talking about but Satan, too. There is a huge battle between good and evil.And finally there will be a war and Harry Potter will kill Lord Voldemort oops! God will kill Satan.
Or is it a tragedy? Satan will overpower and becomes the new god, God is dead, long live god!!!And here we are again back to your God being impotent. All powerful, all knowing, all loving??? Can't do anything. Strange you can't see the paradox.
God is all powerful in the lives of those who love Him. It's staggering. Unfortunately many people suffer at the choices of others. Unless you want God to make you serve Him?
He's all powerful in those who love him? Please show me that power. Make me serve him, give me a break. Sorry, the God you believe in is impotent, he has no power, can't even stop a teenager from killing 20 children. Ask him to demonstrate that power by bringing those children back please. According to you he's overpowered by Satin, that's not powerful at all. You claim to be a telepath so ask him to bring back those children, their parents are suffering.
God is not overpowerd by satin. Or polyester. Although polyester gave it a good shot back in the 70's.
Ha ah ha ha, made me laugh. I keep doing that don't I. Stupid dyslexic brain. Sorry, I'll keep trying to get it right.
Sorry, I know you're dyslexic but it was too hard to resist.
Pretty sure in the movie "Oh God, You Devil" George Burns, who played both lead roles, only wore polyester when playing Satan.
That power cannot be understand unless by someone else who knows God's power.
Should I ask God to bring back to life all the people who have been murdered throughout the ages going back thousands and thousands of years? You want to guess the state of the planet then? Why doesn't God bring back cancer patients from the dead? Why let anyone die? Why let JESUS die? Why didn't God save Him then?
You know how you remind me of? The Pharisee who said if Jesus was really the son of God, He'd come down from the cross. Yet that Pharisee was proven later on.
Trust me, you'll get the opportunity to ask God all these questions in death.We live in an age when it's not wise to put your trust in authority, especially when that authority is only pseudo-, self-appointed, based upon a supposition and just one of many interpretations of a book.
You've got nothing either? Remember only a few people according to the bible saw the resurrection of Jesus.
I think Jesus came across quite a lot of people during His 40 days on earth after the resurrection and prior to His ascension.
I don't care what you think Claire. What does the bible say?
You don't care what I think? Then why ask me what the Bible says??
I didn't ask you what you think, I asked what the bible says. Sorry if you can't see the distinction.
That's not true. According to the Bible, many people saw the resurrected Jesus. Over 500.
I guess it depends on which version of the event you read. The Jews who are also were supposed witnesses didn't by into it either.
Okay, I see what you're saying. Although when the Gospels say "the Jews" they usually mean the Sanhedrin, the leaders, not the everyday Jewish person who saw Jesus. Because remember, this all took place in Israel and the overwhelming majority of people who followed Jesus (including all the Apostles) were Jewish.
I'm a little confused. If He could do anything but He does it in a way that you don't understand, then He's impotent? Doesn't that simply make Him more powerful? (That would be yes, BTW.) If God chooses to use human beings to do His will instead of having angels dancing on the head of a pin for your benefit, how does that make Him impotent? Why is it that some kind of Big Miracle (which would be instantly disbelieved as being from God by the majority of people who demanded it anyway) is the only (theoretically) acceptable way for God to show His power?
Okay, according to Claire at least, God is all powerful and all knowing, but is less powerful then Satin, or at least Satin is winning. Can he be all powerful and loosing to Satin? Wouldn't that just make him powerful?
I will look at any evidence for a God you can think of. Claiming God gives us the power takes credit away from humanity. I you want to give credit to God for what humanity does then you also have to give him the blame. I say give humanity credit and blame for our actions. Never mind the God and Satin stuff, let's stop passing the buck.Hmm...
Well, I obviously disagree with Claire that God is loosing to Satan. Choosing to wait and not take overpowering direct action is not the same as loosing. May look like it, but it's not.
I don't think it takes credit away from humanity at all, obviously. We differ, but the imago del stamped upon humanity only makes what we do that much more wonderful imo.Do you not think Satan is the prince of this world? Does God have more power on earth or does Satan? Ultimately, that power shall be taken away from Satan and God will triumph. All Christians know God is victorious in the end.
Satan is the prince of this world, but he is not more powerful than God, even here. He only does what he is allowed to do.
Yes, which makes Satan more powerful even though it is permissive power. Why does Satan have that power? Because people give it to him not because he is naturally more powerful than God. Satan does not stand a chance against God alone.
So, yes, I agree with you.Okay, Now I've heard it all. Satan has more power because God gave him permission to have the power. That doesn't paint a very good picture of the God you worship. The reason you God is powerless (impotent) is because he gave evil the power.
Yes, God gave us free will and with our free will we gave it to Satan. To take away Satan's power is to violate our free will.
No, we don't agree. Permissive power, or power that one is permitted to have, is by definition less power than that held by the one granting the permission, even if the person who holds the permission seems to be all-powerful within the realm they are allowed to exercise their power over. Just check history. How many vassal kings suddenly found themselves, if they were lucky, missing parts of their body and exiled to foreign lands? The Bible is full of vassal kings who got uppity and paid with their lives.
So no, satan is not more powerful than God under any definition.As I said to Radman, Satan has only got power because of people. We took the gift of free will and gave it to Him. Satan is nothing without sin and doesn't stand a chance against God. Satan is prince of this world because the power was given to him.
However, we have to ask ourselves. Who has the power of the affairs of the world? Who controls the world? Satan has more power over the earth than God does. It doesn't mean he is more powerful but he got it courtesy of sinners whereby God's power is not reliant on the goodness of others.In my understanding, it is only by virtue of the belief of people that satan even exists. The same goes for god.
Claire, all the time you fixate your mind on evil things, worrying about satan, living in fear of the darkest things of this world, you will not lift your game and start living a joyful, hopeful, optimistic life. What is going on in your life? What are the hidden secrets which you try to hide from? If this was a purely religious argument which you were getting into that would not be so bad.
However, you are trying to convince everyone else of this satanic side of life instead of dealing with your own deeper situation. At least, that is as it appears to me. You like to argue, I know. You have hinted at this aspect in other hubs.
Would you like to consider this carefully?
Yes, in your understanding. You don't understand anything about God or Satan.
My joy and hope is in the Lord and everything that is from Him. I take joy in the small things in life. However, there aren't many people who discuss Satan and evil. It seems to be a very unpopular subject among Christians. I get irritated that my church won't touch upon this topic. It is a very important thing in life. How else are we to understand life? My church says, "God bless Africa, guide her leaders, guide her children and give her peace." Has anyone in that congregation asked themselves, "Why are your leaders so corrupt if God guides them, why do children suffer if God guards them and why is Africa so war-torn if God gives her peace?"
Churches often lack practical Christianity.
How can I hide anything? No secrets are hid from God. What hidden secrets would you guess I have?
It is dangerous not to be aware of evil. Satan thrives when good men do nothing. You may think life is sunshine and roses but the fact it is not. It's in a terrible state and this state needs to be addressed. I think you want to believe everything is joyful, etc, because you are afraid of evil. That's hardly productive.
When one states the truth there is bound to be arguing. Jesus often engaged in argument.
No thanks, I choose reality. There is no Satan, just greedy misguided people and a few psychopaths. Blaming Satan, is taking away blame from where it belongs. Thanking God for what you have is taking praise away from where it belongs.
There is no Satan? Wow, you live in a very sheltered world if you believe there are just greedy misguided people and a few psychopaths. There is a world you are completely ignorant to and I don't think you would survive psychologically if you had to find out the truth. You'd have a nervous breakdown. I've gone through a fraction of hell, a very minute amount, literally and it makes you take evil very seriously and be in wonder of God.
It's all very well to blame Satan but Satan can do nothing without our consent to the blame lies with us. I thank God because that is where good comes from.Show me where and what Satan is. Evil doesn't count as proof to an entity. Show me the evil entity that can effect our lives but cannot be detected. The only place he exists is in your mind.
How do I show Satan to you? Must I summon him up for you? That's certainly not going to happen. You can if you want but I don't recommend it.
Satan can be detected alright if you look for him. Go ask our world leaders what they think of Satan. They won't tell you but they worship the devil. That's why the world is in a terrible state like it is.He exists only in the minds of those who think like you. That's why you have no evidence.
The available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.
So what would you have to see or experience that would make you accept Satan's existence as a fact?
At the least, a logical and sensible explanation.
The supernatural is not logical and sensible. So don't confine yourself to your understanding of the world.
Claire, that opens you up to infinite possibilities, e.g. the possibility that the god and satan that you believe in don't exist.
How can that be possible? Only last week Satan's wife eloped with god as she was fed up with all the calumny Satan is getting.
Then you must entertain the idea they do exist. I would not believe in them without evidence.
The penguins that fly and the crows that swim and the earth that is cubical and the sun that is black, trees that grow money, God's son marrying Satan's daughter...endless possibilities.
And you forgot that the "supernatural" is not communicating but we are doing it and without logic and reason we will be talking em! gibberish.Then why are you confining yourself to your understanding of the world? All evidence is in favour of a Godless, Satanless universe, but yet you confine yourself to your understanding of the world.
Because I have more understanding than you do. Evidence in favour of a Godless, Satanless universe? Where's your proof?!
The universe shows signs of intelligent design and not random nonsense.Show me you have a better understanding by showing me your evidence. You are making the claim of God and Satan's existence, which means you have to supply proof by evidence.
Now your claiming the universe shows signs of intelligent design without suppling evidence? I don't believe it does. We are but a dot on the outer arm of but one in billions of galaxies. I'll wait for all your evidence.How do I impart personal experience? It's impossible. The only way you will find evidence is if you summon him up which you must NOT do.
I quote from a research scientific paper about intelligent design of the universe:
A new scientific paper published in arXiv and co-authored by Silas Beane from the University of Bonn reveals strong statistical evidence that our reality is, indeed, a grand computer simulation. The title of the paper is Constraints on the Universe as a Numerical Simulation:
Constraints on the Universe as a Numerical Simulation
Silas R. Beane, Zohreh Davoudi, Martin J. Savage
(Submitted on 4 Oct 2012 (v1), last revised 9 Nov 2012 (this version, v2))
"Observable consequences of the hypothesis that the observed universe is a numerical simulation performed on a cubic space-time lattice or grid are explored. The simulation scenario is first motivated by extrapolating current trends in computational resource requirements for lattice QCD into the future. Using the historical development of lattice gauge theory technology as a guide, we assume that our universe is an early numerical simulation with unimproved Wilson fermion discretization and investigate potentially-observable consequences. Among the observables that are considered are the muon g-2 and the current differences between determinations of alpha, but the most stringent bound on the inverse lattice spacing of the universe, b^(-1) >~ 10^(11) GeV, is derived from the high-energy cut off of the cosmic ray spectrum. The numerical simulation scenario could reveal itself in the distributions of the highest energy cosmic rays exhibiting a degree of rotational symmetry breaking that reflects the structure of the underlying lattice."
Comments on this in layman's terms.
"Here’s the super easy way to understand all this. Your computer display screen has a finite number of pixels available, and this is called the “screen resolution” such as 1920 x 1440. This means there are 1920 pixels across and 1440 pixels vertically.
Everything you see on your computer screen must be drawn and depicted using these pixels, and nothing can be displayed that’s only half a pixel. For example, you can’t draw a vertical line on the screen that exists between the pixels that are hard-wired into the screen resolution. Everything you view on the monitor — a computer game, a website, even a video — is essentially transposed onto the “lattice” of pixels that exist in your hardware.
Your hardware, in effect, has a hard-wired “resolution limit” which defines the smallest size of any object that can be depicted on the screen.
Now, zoom out to the “real” world in which we live. Here in the real world, we think that there are no pixels and that we can move fluidly to any location we wish. We are not digitized being, we think; we’re analog beings living in a fluid world without the pixelation of a computer screen, right?
Not so fast. As it turns out, our “reality” is also pixelated, just at a very fine resolution. This study out of Bonn revealed that the energy level of cosmic rays “snaps to” the “resolution” of the universe in which we live. The very laws of electromagnetic radiation, in other words, are confined by the resolution of the three-dimensional simulation we call a “universe.”
Is this argument sound?Sound, only in that it's an account of hypothesis and ongoing scientific consideration/discussion. Nothing is being claimed as "fait a complis." There is also a lot of analogy there. Don't take analogy as being a statement of fact, it's only used to help understand a concept. Just like so much of what is written in the bible.
So you think that life on this earth and the universe is just arbitary? You think our ozone layer and the magnetic field, sun and moon and all things necessary came together by chance?
I simply do not know, Claire.... neither do you "know." I like to think there is some kind of designer, an organiser maybe, but that is what I like to think. This way of thinking gives me a sense of awe, because in my own tiny, tiny way, I am a sort of designer and I like to be organised. If I was able to face that Big Designer in the Sky, I reckon he and I would be having a fabulous chat about the mistakes we had made.
The Big Designer I am talking to is not the Head Master, or the Harsh Dictator that your Original Sin idea conjures up. Jesus does not come into it, except as an individual human of ancient times, who ate, slept, played and worked just like I do. This Designer is not in the least bit interested in punishing us for our human stupidity -- if, indeed, the Designer exists at all.
Believe it or not, makes no difference to me.Johnny, come on...the the universe has some sort of designer behind it as does the human body. How it all comes together and exists is beyond chance.
I don't believe in a harsh dictator God nor do I believe in original sin which you just assume I believe in. It is such a load of nonsense. How can sex be a sin when no one would be here without it?
Human stupidity? You think that is what He has come punish? Johnny, take your head out of the sand and acknowledge evil as it is.No, Claire, I don't take the argumentative de-bait that easy ... but if you say so, let there be evil.
The reverse of Evil of course is Live. Just the other side of the coin.
However, just to expand the debate a little, I have just been watching "Wonders of the Solar System," presented by Brian Cox.
It has occurred to me that if the Solar System was created similar to the way in which Brian has described it, i.e., the creation of order out of chaos; maybe WE, our species, is part of the "god" that has brought the order out of that chaos. In other words, when one speaks of "god" being the creator, maybe we are part of that "god," that "creator," and similar with Satan as you call it. (The evil opposite face of the coin).
Maybe we have a "force," likening it to the "soul," the state of being which we return to upon the termination of our earthly life.
Interesting to play with these concepts.... I am not too serious and will not argue it's validity..
You know that the opposite of evil is good. Look in in the dictionary.
So you believe we existed as an extension of God before we were born? That is so New Age, a very dangerous belief system. You have absolutely no idea what Satan is. We are not part of God and Satan. However, a believe the universe came to being because of the existence of both God and Satan. They are opposites and everything is made of opposites like an atom.
If you believe this do you believe that our consciousness is just wiped out and we return to just force part of the universe?
Well, I do appreciate your open-mindedness."Satan" is infinite, therefore cannot be defined. Same with "God."
They are concepts held in the mind of man.Philosophically speaking, though, satan and God have definitions. I mean, everyone's satan isn't the same, but almost nobody uses "satan" as a euphamism for "person who brings me gifts/gives me love/does good things."
By the same token, practically nobody really uses "God" (however they define the "big G" God) as a real pejorative.
Not really what she was looking for, but when your wrote your response that was my first thought.That's fair enough Chris. I was being a bit devious, mischievous if you prefer to call it that.
You know Chris perhaps Jonny has something here. If God and Satan are different for all then perhaps they are only products of our mind and don't exist outside of thought.
!!!!!!!
Dear God, I might be Intelligent Life after all !I always knew you were!
If only the same could be said about me...
Rad Man, I don't know about satan, But their "god" seems to be different for all.
For the sake of argument, and for that sake only, I will say yes, "if."
Of course, as often as I've said that I know God is real, I want to make it clear that it's purely a supposition.
Satan/devil/djinn/lucifer/pisache is the "immaterial" invented by Human to blame for all his failures and all the "bad" that is happening to him, in other words he is just a concept to blame(to fool the conspiracy theorists too).
Satan is a the "immaterial" invented by Human to blame for all his failures and all the "bad" that is happening to him, in other words he is just a concept to blame.
Ergo cogito sum is false Claire. I'm therefore I think. Because the factors on earth are conducive for the appearance of living things and intelligent life, we arose, and hence we are born we think why we are born and not the other way round.
"Nature is dull, there is no sound or beauty or taste but material things hurrying past endlessly and meaninglessly" - Whitehead.
Well it is not of your liking hence you make up a cocoon of your liking where there is an "intelligent designer", a loving dad that reward, a harsh judge that punish...... We have a word for that "wishful thinking". God is neither a dad or judge or 'intelligent being'."Nature is dull, there is no sound or beauty or taste but material things hurrying past endlessly and meaninglessly" - Whitehead.
Who is this guy? A robot?
It is not to your liking that there could be an intelligent designer. Admit it.
Consider the article by Stephen C. Meyer[6], entitled, Evidence for Design in Physics and Biology: From the Origin of the Universe to the Origin of Life.[7]
Meyer states:
"[C]onsider the following illustration. Imagine that you are a cosmic explorer who has just stumbled into the control room of the whole universe. There you discover an elaborate “universe-creating machine”, with rows and rows of dials, each with many possible settings. As you investigate, you learn that each dial represents some particular parameter that has to be calibrated with a precise value in order to create a universe in which life can exist. One dial represents the possible settings for the strong nuclear force, one for the gravitational constant, one for Planck’s constant, one for the ratio for the neutron mass to the proton mass, one for the strength of the electromagnetic attraction, and so on. As you, the cosmic explorer, examine the dials, you find that they could easily have been turned to different settings. Moreover, you determine by careful calculation that if any of the dial settings were even slightly altered, life would cease to exist. Yet for some reason each dial is set at just the exact value necessary to keep the universe running. What do you infer about the origin of these finely tuned dial settings?"
Do you agree with this? One factor slightly off and the universe wouldn't exist. Ask a neurosurgeon the consequences of being slightly off in an operation.
An intelligent design of the universe doesn't exactly prove the Holy Spirit is behind is so your point is moot.No a philosopher, Alfred North Whitehead and what he philosophised was proven and studied by science. That the sound, colour and beauty of the Universe and the meaning is all our creation, what our brain makes up for us. The universe consists only of material things which moves.
What has my liking got to do with it? The argument has two fallacies, begging the question and special pleading(also personal incredulity). The only argument for ID is, 'whatever I say is true and goes and believe me or else'
This is absolute nonsense for there is no "creation". It is also wide speculation. Just like we tend to consider the life forms of earth when considering the possible life forms of other planet, we consider the characteristics of our universe and say nothing else is possible. It is because the universe is here in the present form that we are thinking about it. If universe was different we might not have been here to think or there might have been other forms who might be thinking the same. Suppose some sand is sifted through a sieve we get some fine sand. Does that means the fine sand is made for the seive? And you are again thinking backwards. Is the royal family is made for Prince harry to be born or is it because the royal family is there that harry was born in to the family?
Intelligent design itself is nonsense hence god or his thought(spirit), has nothing to do with ID and you are correct regarding that.Of all the billions and billions of potential planets that could sustain life, million upon millions have that potential and we are on one. Suggesting this was all done for us is simply arrogant.
Who said anything about it all being done for us? An intelligent designer can make life occur a planet just like ours. There could be millions of civilizations our their in the universe. That intelligent designer could just be showing off its ability.
I'm playing devil's advocate here, of course, but we don't have to know the mind of this designer but just to consider the works of it. It's kind of like those who believe in the theory of evolution. We don't know how life started on earth as a fact but we can observe evolution in nature.
Earth is not the only place (even in our own solar system) that has an atmosphere. The atmosphere of Titan is known as the only fully developed atmosphere that exists on a natural satellite in the Solar System. HD 209458 b was the first of many categories: a transiting extrasolar planet discovered, an extrasolar planet known to have an atmosphere.
Only a few hundred years ago we were told that the earth was still and could not be moved and everything revolved around it. Galileo was charged with heresy because he found moons around other planets.
We are here because a lot of things went right here on earth. Mars was headed in a similar direction, but something went wrong. Eventually something will go wrong on earth as well. At the very least when the sun goes supernova. Enjoy the ride. To enjoy the ride you need to control your mind.
There is no evidence to suggest otherwise and rambling on about a computer screen is not helping your case.And your point is? I didn't say Earth was the only place with an atmosphere, Uranus has one so does Jupiter. There could be many Earth-like planets out there without beings similar to us.
Yes, a lot of accidents came together for us to be here including our consciousness. Are you saying I can't control my mind?
No evidence? There is but you are just interpreting it differently. People can view the same evidence and can come to different conclusions.
I'm sure your computer is not programmed and the words on your keyboard just came about by you typing letters on it.The problem Claire is that to answer the question as to why we are here you are starting with the absurd rather than the obvious. It obvious the universe is as it is despite the many other possibilities. It's obvious that we are all here because our parents were in the mode on one particular evening. It's absurd to claim it's all planed by one entity that has gone missing for which you have no evidence ever even existed.
Our consciousness (self awareness) was a product of our brain development and humans are not the only animal that is self aware. We are not unique in that regard.
If there were evidence you would have the entire would convinced by now. All you have is the bible and we both know that has it's flaws.The obvious is that the universe shows sign of intelligent design. God has gone missing? Who claims that? It's not like there is no evidence but many people don't know how to interpret that evidence.
How did consciousness come about in the first place? How can people have awareness even when their brain waves are flattened?
Do you know of cases where meditation can actually make changes to the human body? So it seems as if consciousness is not a product of the brain but the brain acts as a relay for it in the physical world.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/peter-bak … 05909.html
Another things to consider is that if consciousness is the product of the brain how do people get premonitions and practise remote viewing?
I once was sleeping and dreamt what my mom and aunt were talking about. I don't know how that was possible because I didn't hear them. They were downstairs and I was upstairs.
Did you know consciousness exists in the heart, too?
http://in5d.com/heart-has-brain-and-consciousness.htmlEvidence please!
They don't. They do have awareness when the brain is coming in and out of a coma or surgery. If you've ever had surgery you'd know what I mean.
Of course meditation can change the physical body, it can lower blood pressure and heart rate, so does exercise, what's your point?
They don't.
I once was sleeping and dreamt what my mom and aunt were talking about. I don't know how that was possible because I didn't hear them. They were downstairs and I was upstairs.
Nonsense, I'm not going to explain to you that the heart pumps blood.
Is that your argument? Personal experience? Something that a brain saw, a brain that is biased, seek pattern and confabulate. That is, a normal human brain that can see things when there is none, see sound were there is silence and can make and alter stories and impart experience of what it thought than what occurred, and what such a brain thought is your "proof".
Then there is no argument, so no question of soundness arise.Well, I feel tempted to tell you to summon Satan up but I could never live with myself if something bad happened to you.
My point is, one never is going to be convinced of their existence unless one has received the proof itself. Sometimes you can argue that one is interpreting things that aren't there but then there are things that are just a little too obvious.
And asking for evidence for Satan and God over the Internet is just beyond my abilities.if you try to summon up satan, the minimum that can happen is you might attract or scare of some insects and the maximum is people will come with straight jacket to take you.
Your point is personal experience constitute proof and you do not have reason and logic in your side, while I say it is not of any value as brain can easily be fooled. Obvious or not is how you look at it. And if you accept there is god, and if you accept god is not a "person" then there is no satan. According to you satan is a highly intelligent idiot with a perverted mind who does not know what he want and is probably on drugs and has some magical abilities, while all the evidence point that the most intelligent being on earth is humans and they too are pathetic.
More correct will be you have more misunderstanding than he do.
Humans can hear sound without anyone talking,
Can see things which are not there.
Similarly they can have thoughts seemingly from other people but an intelligent person should understand that they are merely their own thoughts and should analize it before stating it as proof to others.
I believe, strongly, that the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists. There is evidence everywhere. Anyone who thinks there isn't, is just not looking. lol
Yes, the punishment ought to fit the crime but you are insinuating that only mass murder for example out to be punishment. Would you like it if God caused staples to fix the mouths of those who say mean words?
LOL! So you don't think other strange things don't open your eyes to the possibility God exists? So is it possible to you God exists when we come across unexplainable cross circles? No if God were to stop Adam Lanza then He'd have to do that with all other evil doers. When Obama, for example, lies then God must make his tongue paralysed because lies from politicians can have massive ramifications for the worse. He ought to have killed Bush before the war in Iraq. He ought to kill any shop keeper who short changes his customers. If this had to happen to everyone there'd be a complete collapse of society.
You seem to think that small sin is perfectly acceptable. I'll tell you this much, it is not. Even the smallest sin empowers sin and that leads to him having the power to influence those who do mass murder. So all sin indirectly causes unimaginable suffering. All the small sins of the world really give him massive power. So if God wants to prevent people from committing mass murder He needs to destroy the enablers and that is us who don't repent of sin. Destroy all those who sin and you have a perfect world with no evil.I'm pretty sure I said punishment should be appropriate for the crime. I'm pretty sure I said "mean words" require an apology, that staple stuff is pretty sic. Perhaps your unable to understand appropriate punishment. I hope some common sense will work it's way into this kind of thought pattern before you have children.
The rest I won't even bother to comment on because you weren't making any sense and going on about how powerful Satin is again. You really should have more faith in your Gods power.Yes, perhaps you shouldn't comment again. You are clueless. I find it interesting that you think it's okay that Jesus is preached to your kids but Satan is a no no.
Huh? Perhaps it is do to a little bit of frustration that I am feeling right now. I don't like going around in circles so I won't bring up your Catholic school kids thing again. Just realize that it sounds strange to people.
Mankind has given Satan, like God, power by insisting that such imaginary entities exist in reality.
They do not! They exist in your mind, and in the minds of persons who think like you do.
Stop "believing" in them and they simply cease to exist; hence NO POWER. Then you can come gently back to earth and give some thought to practical solutions for our difficulties here.You may only have a like button when you decide to like everything I have to say.
Good morning, all. Just perusing to see what the new thoughts might be on the topic today.I always like everything you say. That's a given.
Ahhh, a solid ego stroking makes a morning so much more enjoyable.
Yesterday I am aware of certain lines in a reply I made to you yesterday, saying that I would pray for you and seemingly attempting to convince you of something. I am replying to say that first, I respect you and what you believe and have taken nothing you have written as offensive to me in any way. Secondly, I meant no harm, nor was intending any in any way, by writing that I would pray for you. In my beliefs, just to shed light, it's good to pray for others for whatever the reason; I understand and respectiviely and sincerely apologize to you for what I wrote, and also to anyone else who I offended. Did not mean nor intend to.
That's a paradox of note. How can mankind give God and Satan power if they don't exist?
You can deny their existence all your like but you cannot alter the truth. You just cannot.You can say that God is a fairy tail, and just be blind to the fact that he exists, thats up to you, but you will never say anything to make me stop having faith and believing in God, just like I can't make you have faith or believe, but I can tell you that there will come a point in life where you will wish you had of had faith.
And I guarantee you there will come a time in your life when you realize your "faith," is egotistic self righteousness and there is no god.
Lisa, if and when you choose not to "believe,:" that will be entirely your own business. I have been down that road like you describe; believed in the god you espouse; spoke to non-believers like I was knowing so much more than they were; presumed I was in a better position for long-term survival than they were; reckoned they were destined for hell, fire and brimstone, when I could shout, "I told you so, but you would not listen."
I have moved on and can now speak with christians and non-christians alike, on a "level playing field," knowing without a doubt that each of us is equal and neither is better or superior to the other. I can see the silly theatricals put up by religious people, particularly their priest, pretending they have some kind of communication with a powerful, judgmental master. I can smile and empathise with you, sympathise with you when your going gets hard. Yet you cannot lead my life for me, and visa versa.
I have moved on.
Life for me, here and now, unbelieving, is MUCH more awesome and wonderful. Might see you here one day. The world has so much to offer and I cannot waste my time worrying about that "original sin" which you and your fellow christians talk so much about. If ever there was a human concoction designed to lord it over others, the original sin lie beats the lot.Johnny,
I read your profile you said you couldn't be a Christian after your "homosexual nature became apparent". I totally understand if you felt the church had in some way abandoned you, but from this, how did you lose your faith in God. I hope I am not getting to personal, but I am interested in others journey in faith or lack of.Thank you for the question, Spikology.
I lost my "faith in god," when I stopped accepting there was such an entity. The supposed nature of that entity was conveyed to me by christians, of which I was one. I was drawing away from hypocrisy, of which I had been a part. I was searching for love and affection, moral support for the person I am, yet I got only a friendship "hooked" onto that acceptance of the christian god.
I went from from my christ-ism to hindu-ism. From hindu-ism to buddha-ism. I was progressing!
In the course of my career, and in my personal life, I have been confronted with the death of others, some at a distance, i.e., patients who have died whilst in my company or care; and with individuals very close to me. Each of my parents, who lived to a good age in their 80s, and a couple of close friends who have taken their own lives.
My limited knowledge of biology, anatomy, physiology, physics, chemistry and everything that "is" convinces me that some kind of designer/creator has been involved, yet I am not wishing to convince anyone else that this is so. Each person may come to his/her conclusion, because my view is only coming from a human perspective and there are 7 billion minds that can reach their own conclusion.
That designer/creator is in no way the same "god" which religious people say will cause us to kneel and be judged after we have passed from this life. I see that as absolute nonsense, a concept designed and created by numerous humans for the purpose of control....particularly control of people who, like myself, appear to be in any way slightly devious from the "normal."
So, that is how I have come to have no faith in a god, because there is no such god for me. Life, for me, is to simply live it, breathe it, experience it, love it, share it, then finally let it go. This latter ability is probably the hardest thing to do when you get to loving Life, but if you have done your best, so be it.Am I taking it correctly from your statement that you do believe in a creator?
I understand where you are coming from, when things happen in life and it isn't what you thought it would be you do have a tendency to lose faith. My dad for example when he was a child he developed a tumor on his optical nerve which made him blind forever, his mom told him to ask God to let him see again, and it never happened and when he ask her why, she told him he didn't believe hard enough, and ever since then they went there separate ways, and he don't talk about God and when someone talks about religion he will leave the room. But you have to understand that there are prayers that are never answered, and some that are and we will never understand why. Like why some are wealthy and some go without. I accept life for what it is but I also have faith to help me through it. I can't explain to others how I see life but I love it and it's beautiful. And while there are a lot of different religions out there and it seems like what you believe everyone tells you it's wrong, but if you believe in God, and know his son Jesus died for your sins and that the father, son , and the holy sprit is as one. You will see a world of difference in your life and you have to understand that stuff happens in life. Read the book of JOB it's a story about a man that had everything and it was all taken away, and when he didn't curse God for it he was given his life back. Now I know that you can't bring the loved ones you lost back but life can open a new door. I believe that when one door closes a new one will open.
Nice, he didn't get his eye sight back because his faith wasn't strong enough. I heard that before as to why the cancer wasn't healed. nonsense.
I have too, but you can't think that way cause like with cancer many people in my family has died with cancer and a friend of mine passed last week from lung cancer. God don't answer all of your prayers, if he did everyone would be thin,healthy, and rich. and live forever. He answers the prayers you need, not what you want. I also believe that even though when you get sick he gave us enough sense to go to the dr.
I'll bet your Dad thinks he needs his sight back. I'll bet the parents of a child with cancer thinks they need that child to survive. The truth is this is a Godless world that's why it looks random. Because it is random. If christian prayer worked christians would be under represented in hospital and prisons.
Yes, the world is godless, but that's not because God doesn't exist. If you look, you see Him everywhere.
I'm looking and I've looked and I don't see him anywhere. Tell me exactly where to look and I'll do it.
I don't know where you've looked. Not to be putting you down, but lots of people look and look and sometimes it's when you stop looking so hard at externals that you find God. Although as a Calvinist, I do firmly believe it's God who "finds" you, not the other way around. I know that I wasn't looking at all when I "found" God.
I once was talking (in another forum) to this Belgian kid who I told he should ask God because God will not refuse to answer him (which is in the Bible.) He told me that he had asked God to show Himself, but I could tell he was looking for some Big Miracle (which I sincerely believe was what he wanted, but also could tell he probably wouldn't have believed if he'd seen it.) It's the little things for me most of the time. All the questions that science can't answer, it's not some intellectual decision for me that God is the answer. I was perfectly okay with thinking they couldn't be answered, and that when we die we just cease to exist. (My first girlfriend was constantly talking about death "being a door" but I didn't buy it.)
I don't know. It's different for everybody. Some people never "find" God (I'm thinking about Christopher Hitchens here, who's brother is a committed Christian.) I do hope and pray that you find God, because there really is nothing else like it.
It sounds like you are saying that if we trick our minds into believing we see something, that we know is imaginary...we can actually see it? Is that what you are saying, Chris? If so, then that is not God...but is simply psyching ourselves.
Your assertions are full of holes...as usual!And yours, of course, are flawless pieces of logic. Yeah right.
Yeah, I know that it sounds that way to you. But it's not. Even if I could have "tricked" myself into thinking that, I wasn't interested. I liked premarital sex way too much. So, to answer your question more directly, no. I didn't take something that I knew to be imaginary and convince myself it was real. I wasn't interested and I wasn't looking. It fits a theory, I'll admit, but the theory itself is flawed, which is based on the assumption that not only does God not exist, but that He couldn't exist.That's because I don't use a 2000 year old book of ignorant childish fairy tales. Maybe my logic is not flawless, but I, at least, use REALITY as my source.
Yet, looking at it logically, that appears to be exactly what you have done.
Becoming a believer has not had any effect on believers engaging in premarital sex. Did I miss the memo?
Even after the flaws have been pointed out to you, you still refuse to apply the reasoning that you do in your everyday life...but you've done one heck of a job convincing yourself that you are not rigidly indoctrinated. A mind is a terrible thing!
How desperate!No, what I refuse to do is assume you must be correct at the expense of my own experiences and thinking about the subject. You may attempt to badger me all you wish. Taking what is in effect a subjective experience ("I have never seen anything that makes me believe in God") and attempting to turn it into an objective statement ("There is no God") and then extrapolate snide observations about people who differ ("Those who believe in God are delusional") is not using objective logic. And getting insulting and badgering doesn't change that.
All badgering aside, in the real world, your experiences are only in your head. That's the best explanation, unless one is already indoctrinated to believe what authority has told him to believe.
Chris, I am not saying that there is no God. You are assuming that by my dismissal of your specific beliefs. You assume, through your indoctrination, that God is the illogical and mythical God written about in Bronze Age writings of over 60 contradictory books. No offense, but if you were not indoctrinated, you would see just how completely absurd that is. Why can't you take the more sensible route??: that you don't know who or what God is.
You are just so sure that you know things that you DON'T KNOW. I am just pointing that out to you...and I don't have to personally know you and your experiences. There is something called reality. I use it to gauge the veracity of your assertions.
Lisa, you are preaching at me. Please don't! That is one of the major reasons I do not attend a christian church service. You may hold those views, granted, of course. But it is pure arrogance to presume you need to pull/push ME in that direction. I know you are well intended, but I do not want that from you. OK?
I am open to considered and intelligent discussion, but NOT evangelism!Sorry but I wasn't preaching to you or at you, and I am far from being a perfect christian or being smart enough to preach to someone else, I was just having a conversation, and I was just trying to relate to you. Sorry if I was misunderstanding.
There are a lot of stories about people finding religion on their death bed.
With great respect to those who have gone through this, the persons departing and those supporting him/her, and not wishing to denigrate such choice as the end approaches, I see such an attitude as being a last-ditch-stand in the hope of getting a better place in "Heaven."
If you understand, as I do, that there is a state of nothingness beyond the point of death, then it negates any appeal to a god in those circumstances. It certainly makes the individual feel better of course. And the on-going "hanging on" to a person after their death can make others feel better....and who am I/are we to deny that sentiment? Yet in reality, it tends to remove us from reality; keeps one engaged in make-believe.Johnny said;
"With great respect to those who have gone through this, the persons departing and those supporting him/her, and not wishing to denigrate such choice as the end approaches, I see such an attitude as being a last-ditch-stand in the hope of getting a better place in "Heaven."
I would also imagine this would be the case because what would they have to lose? Right? Either way they would have everything covered.
Johnny said;
"If you understand, as I do, that there is a state of nothingness beyond the point of death, then it negates any appeal to a god in those circumstances. It certainly makes the individual feel better of course. And the on-going "hanging on" to a person after their death can make others feel better....and who am I/are we to deny that sentiment? Yet in reality, it tends to remove us from reality; keeps one engaged in make-believe."
You say you understand the nothingness beyond the point of death? To take an point from atheist; How do you know or understand without experiencing it?I know from a state of unconsciousness that there was "nothing." I only know that I have been unconscious because I woke up and was told that I was unconscious, a logical conclusion that I could accept.
Our consciousness is possible because biological/physical/chemical processes come together and give us our senses which give us awareness of the world around us.
It's totally illogical to suppose that we, as individual conscious entities, can have any consciousness without those "senses." ANYTHING that anyone can dream up about a consciousness after death has taken place, is just conjecture. So anything goes!
I am atheist in my understanding.....each is free to form a different opinion.It seems to me that you believe in a deity, but are not willing to call that deity “God” because you disagree with Christianity. I don’t mean to define your beliefs, because everyone has to make their own journey, but the definition of atheism is: the absence of belief that any deities exist.
Not the absence in the belief of a religion’s god.
Whereas theism is: the belief that at least one deity exists (so it can be one or twenty). This doesn’t mean they have to belong to an organized religion, just believe that at the minimum, one creator, no matter what that creator is called.
Now, you might not want to conform so to speak, but this is the general public’s definition of atheism, which does not mean you cannot call yourself an atheist if you want to, but for the sake of argument we might need to be on the same page to share ideas.So, you might believe in Zeus or the tree god and you are a theist by definition if you believe in any of these or others.
No Sir, I don't "believe in a deity." I acknowledge the possibility, the probability, that some kind of energy, call it what you will, somehow caused this finite world to come into being. How? You and I will never know. We are part of it. That is sufficient for me. I would never call it a "god."
"...call yourself an atheist if you want to..." Please note that I did not call myself an atheist. I describe the way I think, not what I am. "I am" just a human being, that is all.
I cannot conceive, and do not need to worry about a "deity" having some kind of control over my person. Such a waste of time, it would detract from my every day life and the energy I need for doing other, more important things.
I am happier thinking along the buddhist point of view. No "god" to bow down and worship, except the "higher self." Even there it is not a worship, more of a deep respect and a fountain for new learning. That point of the Self is where I, my finite existence, meets the infinite. `I suspect that person you call Jesus would have known just this truth, and that is what he would have been talking about to people of that era. (Mis-understood then as much he would be mis-understood today.)
There is no need to stop learning; only to persue it at my own pace. Also there is no need to try to impress you or anyone else of my understanding, unless you have a particular interest, then we can exchange views. Various individuals will have a different "take" on things. Fair enough, but I will make my own choices, thanks.Thanks for your patience, Johnny. It sounds like we are both searchers. ***Disclaimer, I am not trying to push any views on to you, I am merely trying to understand yours.***And P.S. This is a long one and I hope all of the quotes Copy/Pasted.
As for the belief in a deity, you said: "My limited knowledge of biology, anatomy, physiology, physics, chemistry and everything that "is" convinces me that some kind of designer/creator has been involved, yet I am not wishing to convince anyone else that this is so."
Creator is not really a scientific term, but now you are saying energy, which is a little more scientific sounding, but still sounds like some "thing" is in control if it is creating. Can you please give me a little more detail on this energy, because to me it still sounds like a deity that you are "not willing to call God". To quote an old phrase; "You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.".
To me is sounding more like your "understanding" is becoming more agnostic than atheist because you are saying there might be something, but none of us know that for sure. But other times you are saying for sure there is not. This is where my confusion is coming in. It sounds like we are debating about a word, not a belief. You want to call it energy, creator, designer, but not God because Christians call it that and you are not a Christian.
Just to clear up, I have no problem with whatever you want to call yourself. This is your right, but I am trying to understand what the difference is between what you define your understanding as and how it is different than the real world definitions of Atheist, Agnostic, and Theist.
As for Atheist or not Atheist;
This post Johnny said "Please note that I did not call myself an atheist. I describe the way I think, not what I am. "I am" just a human being, that is all."
Earlier post, Johnny said; "I am atheist in my understanding.....each is free to form a different opinion."
For the sake of argument, we are all humans, not just you. But in this forum we are all discussing our understandings, so that is what I meant by saying you call yourself an Atheist, which implies your understanding.
your hypothesis is slightly skewed since you cannot prove with certainty that there is no "Heaven".
your description of "reality" is an opinion just like those of the people who have the opinion that there is a "heaven" for them to ascend to.
both positions are valid for each individual as they travel the oneway trip on this earth.
that is truly the only "reality" of the situation.taburkett, for me there IS a heaven.... it's available any moment of any day of my life. Right here and now. After my life, in my understanding, there is no heaven, no hell, nothing. That is the realm of control freaks here on earth!
You are right, there is no proof.... of course there is not. However there IS proof that I don't like christian evangelism. I vote with my feet!
My friend, who do you claim is stronger? satan? I assure you that he was driven forth from heaven by God and that the world you now live in would have been the condition of heaven had satan not been driven forth. Mr Rad Man, what power do you have? it is satan whose influence people choose to obey and not God's. satan forces the will, and God gives free-will. I will pray for you that God will reveal Himself to you in the dealings and situations of your life.
I'm not sure how many posts you have commented on with Rad Man or other atheists, but for you to outright state that you will be praying for them is an insult because they don't believe in God and some of them (that I have spoken to) actually would reject God if they had proof of his existence.. Just a heads up in case Rad Man blasts you
They know it's an insult too. They say it because it makes them feel superior. I'm glad that they feel they can use Jesus as a club. I'm sure he's damn proud of his followers using prayer as a punishment/revenge. In this context it's essentially a curse. Cursing people in God's name seems a bit repugnant.
And redundant at times. That's why i try to stay as far from some of those ideals as possible
Some Christians do use that phrase as a weapon, but the fact is that we're supposed to pray for everyone. Many actually mean it to be a loving thing to say, many more than those who use it as a weapon.
However, we can certainly pray for people without beating them over the head with the fact that we're doing it. The Bible does say to pray without intermission. I can't exactly say that I do that, but I do try to pray for people.I apologize if upset you, but my intent was not to use prayer or God as a weapon, nor Jesus as a club. With all due respect, if people can get on here and blame God for mankinds poor decisions and choices and irresponsibly insinuate that He is supposed to hold our hands, then it is reasonably fair and honorable to stand up for Him, He did for us. Everyone believes what they believe for whatever reasons. And to accuse someone of feeling superior because of misinterpreting a comment puts you in no better shoes either. I apologized and as for me, moving along.
Thank you all for pointing that out. Really, thank you. I didn't mean nor intend to offend anyone or their personal or religious beliefs. I wasn't aiming or intending to use anything as a weapon. Just did not agree with how God is made to blame and I realize that I went a little overboard. Thank you and the others who pointed that out.
Terry, I am sometimes too quick to judge, just on the pretext of one Post here. Sorry if I have done that here. It's good to know your perspective.
Who said God is to blame for anything? We DON'T even believe in God, therefore, how can we be blaming an imaginary being? By not providing any protection, or saving any children, it suggests that all of this talk about a God is delusional drivel...God is not to blame...He's just not REAL!
WOW! Listen to yourself! You just said "we DONT even believe in God.." and "imaginary being" and you accuse God WHOM YOU JUST SAID DOESNT EXIST as being "imaginary", "delusional drive". For someone to say that, and yet claim he is not real, surely you must believe He exists, you just apparently have your own personal version of Him.
Oh dear, you truly don't understand. He didn't say God was "imaginary" as in God has an imagination. And delusional doesn't apply to God it applies to the people who imagine him.
Apparently there is a severe disconnect from comprehension skills. You should go back and read what I ACTUALLY said, before I respond, because I refuse to reply to your simply absurd and irrelevant strawman reply. Fair?
I didn't think you were doing it as a weapon. You don't appear to be that type of person from what I've seen so far. I was just stating in case that happened.
Thank you. Honestly. I am going to say this with all the humility and consideration and respect that I possibly can: We all have our own beliefs for our own reason, correct? But I think now of the dark ages, the martyrs, and these all -IN RATHER LARGE GROUPS - believed in God and died for Him. Some may say it was a cult. Yet a cult will murder THEMSELVES by their OWN hand, yet the martyrs were killed by OTHER HANDS. How is it that people can belittle and accuse God in some way or another for the evil that men do??? Have we not the power to choose?? These people who died for God lived their lives in total surrender to Him, EVEN at the peril and endangerment of the safety and well-being of themselves AND their families; For people to accuse God of being responsible for OUR evil, then they should be scared because He may come for YOU also. Martyrs were the people who ended up being martyrs because they refused to deny the very One who blessed and provided for them. They prayed and even prayed silently and no human being answered their prayers. These faced torture, the witnessing of family being burned alive and skinned alive, and in their souls they had a peace and understanding and unearthly peaceful composure of mind and spirit that came from no earthly source or means. Look for yourselves, you who believe God is evil. I have prayed for things that no other knew of and my prayers were answered. I prayed for understanding and perception and will-power that by my own strength could not achieve and did not achieve, save only by the grave and power of God. I am not here to convince anybody, thats the Holy Spirit's power. And only He can do that when one is willing to see and believe the truth. So again, if anyone is offended, fine, curse me out, whatever. My words nor intent were not meant to offend or anger, but to just ask you to really, really THINK. Whats the use of trying to speak of God who loves you, when you refuse to believe. Hate Him and accuse Him of WHATEVER you want: I look to Calvary and I see a God who clearly loves us all, even though we did not love Him.
Wow, thanks for the prayers. I suddenly feel better and can see the light. I can see the errors in my ways. I woke up this morning 4 inches taller with a full head of hair.
The all powerful all knowing God who has no power or ability to heal has helped me through your prayers.
I will return the favour and perform a few muslim prayers for you as those are much stronger then your christian prayer I know this because in prayer God had informed me that muslims are right.
I believe Mike Huckabee is on to something. By our choice to dishonor God, by placing barriers to Him in our schools and society, has opened the door for satan to steal, kill and destroy. This influence, I believe has dramatically increase the prevalence of mental illness and violence responsible for this type behavior.
Mental illness and violence are not responsible for this horrific act. The responsibility lies in the ease at which this person was able to get guns and ammunition and the fact that he wanted to die a famous person and the media is allowing it.
So you are going to ignore lanza having mental illness? If we can fix the root problem, then we can fix it before guns would even be an issue. Most school shooters have been on anti depressant or anti anxiety medications. How can that be ignored?
There will and will always be mental illness. It happens in every country, but when you give everyone the right to have guns this is what you get. Without the guns what would you have?
Probably what other countries have, different types of crime. We could get rid of most crime by dealing with mental illness instead of pretending it isn't there. Some of these people who become killers could be good people if helped. By focusing our attention on the guns we are ignoring the problem that makes the guns a bad idea.
Why not do both. Get rid of guns and help the mentally ill. Unfortunately we don't know they are ill until they do something that indicates a problem. Afterwords we can say it was because they were ill, but that is just clouding the fact that they had easy access to guns. The US and Canada have the same percentage of mentally ill, but despite the guns coming across the boarder Canada still has half the gun related fatalities as the US and most of Europe has half what Canada has. The fact remains without access to guns this would not have happened.
Plenty of crimes are committed without the perpetrator having a mental illness. Or put it this way, some criminals might be mentally ill, but the illness doesn't necessarily cause the crime.
Basically what I'm saying is that the majority of criminals are responsible for their own actions. We should remember that, because it would be terrible if this tragedy were politicised into "let's lock up all mentally ill people in case they do something bad". (Especially as for many people, mentally ill equals "anyone who is a bit different/odd/a loner/introverted.")If you take away guns from law abiding citizens this will not solve the root problem(s). If you put all of the mentally ill away to ensure they do not have access to guns this will not solve the root problem(s). Even if you treat all of the mentally ill to ensure no shootings happen because of them this will not solve the root problem(s).
Just because someone is diagnosed as mentally ill does not mean they are; just because someone is now mentally ill does not mean they have always been, as far as the diagnosis process is through our present day culture. Obviously, there are mentally ill people, and of course it is in our best interest to ensure they have proper treatment, are also properly diagnosed and are not going to be a harm to themselves or others. However, our society is breeding people that are more prone to mental illness because of the amoral debauchery of what is being fed into their brain by the culture, drugs, alcohol, and uncurbed violence they may see daily in the streets or on TV. It’s not just people doing drugs, or doing this or that, but their parents, or lack thereof… much of the time parents do unspeakable evil to their children by doing drugs while pregnant, letting them do whatever they want (without limits), raising them with a perspective that there is no standard of morality, etc.
Who has access to guns if not the citizens? The criminals still do, they have smuggled them for years across borders and to other criminals (even have before with the help of the government). Also, the government does through law enforcing entities and the military. If the citizens do not have guns, or necessary means of defense, who is to keep both the government and the criminals in check? These two are not on the same level (just so you know my point of view), but corrupt government (again, not saying it is fully corrupt) cannot be allowed to have all of the controlling resources to push the people into the pen as sheep.
The root problems have to do with society becoming more amoral, the deterioration of family, the separation of God from the country, the lack of fear of justice being done to people who do evil, and the lack of fear from eternal justice which will be done to people. Of course I believe people should receive proper attention if they are mentally ill. Of course guns can be dangerous and used to harm in the hands of the wrong people. We need a balanced approach when dealing with topics, realizing that there are repercussions for getting rid of guns or declaring everyone mentally ill (or keeping the mentally ill away from other people). And we need to address the root problems like adults who understand evil is a reality that does not follow just any pathway out of society… it must be forced out through a stronger counter weight called God (and true morality).
Most mass murderers are also white males, peeples. Why is no one talking about white masculinity or the prevalence of macho nonsense in our culture?
you sound just like msnbc , in the days of the cowboys we all had guns and nothing like this ever happened
Huckabee is an idiot. We need a Separation of Church and State. God does not have to be in schools.
I bet he would change his mind if it came to Allah being in schools.Allah and God is one in the same. God is in the schools, isn't God everywhere? I strongly agree in seperation in church and state or else we'll become a church/state. Let's take out the 5000 year old manmade factor (god) and tackle this situation.
You can prevent America from becoming a church/state (which is a goal the Founding Fathers, the majority of whom were deeply religious, desired) without ramming secularism down the throats of people and forcing them to compartmentalize their lives so stringently.
When America was founded, the majority of countries in Europe had official churches, mostly catholic but some protestant like England. They wanted America to be different, which is why the Establishment Clause prevents the government from establishing an official church and why the Abridgement Clause is supposed to prevent the government from telling people how to worship or whether they even can. In theory, at least.God is not manmade. God created all things, the complexity and design of a sperm and even the abilities of the brain and will are courtesy of Him. He gives freedom of choice, but sadly when our actions or the actions of others hurt us or other people, then we go join the blame God club, sadly. the only thing manmade about God is the lies about Him and the uncharacterized representations of His Character.
Did god also create parasites and cancer? And what character of God are you talking about? The OT, NT or the Quran?
The OT and the NT are connected in very deep ways. The Quran is something altogether different.
I don't know about that Chris. I'm sure Muslims will tell you that the OT and the Quran are deeply connected. It seems it's just a matter of indoctrination that forms the opinion.
But Muslims have a different OT from Jews and Christians. Most Muslims have never read the OT and they certainly don't carry it around with them. Muslim interpretations of the OT often put a different emphasis on certain stories, most importantly the roles of Isaac and Ishmael. Many Muslims believe it was actually Ishmael that Abraham took up the mountain, and that Ishmael was Allah's chosen vessel, not Isaac. Muslim interpretation of the OT is that it clearly gave the land to the sons of Ishmael, where Jews and Christians say it gave the land to the sons of Isaac.
To be clear, although the way Christians and Jews interpret and utilize what we Christians call the "Old Testament" can be strikingly different, the text is the same.
So yeah, a Muslim could say that but it's like comparing apples and oranges in many ways. And since the goal is fundamental truth and what we really will be doing for eternity, it's important.
Bit more than you asked for, huh?
no God in state,and you get an evil gov.
He seems to be implying that the shooter was an atheist. Is there anything to suggest he was? Most criminals are believers, so having God involved obviously doesn't make a difference.
Dostoevsky treated the suffering of children and the subject of God in the Brothers Karamazov. Ross Douthout wrote a great article on this in the Sunday NY Times. Loss of Innocents http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/16/opini … y&_r=0
How do you know that mentally ill people are not aware of God? What do you base that on?
It seems to me that in a case where answers are so singularly elusive, where the killer was uncommunicative in the first place and left no notes or diaries or Facebook postings, that in the face of such a lack of information, people are even quicker to cling to their favorite kneejerk reactions. Of course, this forum is about religion, but the overriding meme has been pro-gun control, triggering predictable reactions of anti-gun control. People saying that kids wouldn't have died if there were no guns leading to others saying that when guns are criminalized then only criminals will have guns are both equally correct and equally wrong.
As a conservative Christian, I find it tempting to agree with Huckaby. But it's a facile answer, equally as facile as people who say that religion is the problem and if we did away with it the world would be a better place. I think his timing stinks. But the bigger problem with his statement is that by complaining that this all came about because we removed God from any specific institution, he actually further removes God from the discussion because then the focus becomes on religion in general and Huckaby in particular.
We may never truly know why Adam Lanza did what he did. The fact that his mother was a gun enthusiast who had several weapons in her home certainly made it easier for him. And he may not have used any of her weapons. I don't know. But to say that religion is the problem here, or that Adam had no conception of God, are not safe assumptions to make faced with what we know, and what we don't.I agree 100% with you Chris. This has nothing to do with Religion, it's a gun control issue and should be treated as such.
It is and it isn't. As you pointed out, countries with heavier gun control laws (except I think Switzerland, but I don't have the time to do the research) have fewer firearm deaths but there are other, sometimes more significant differences. If Canada were to loosen it's gun laws, would there be an automatic, corollative rise in firearm-related deaths? I don't know. But I do know that Canadians as a whole are a bit more relaxed than Americans and may not feel the need to own and shoot guns. There may not be the culture of hypermasculinity or individualism-bordering-on-narcissism in your country that there is in mine. Australia is the same way. And England has tough gun control laws, but it's also legal for the police to toss you in prison and hold you without charges, I think for up to two weeks. There are more controls of all kinds in England than in America. There are tradeoffs in that, and they're not always obvious ones.
And the sad fact is that America has gun control laws. These laws might not have prevented all the various shootings, but they would have deterred a lot of them if they were properly and evenly enforced. Many street crimes would still happen because you can buy large amounts of munitions in some places and take it to other places where you can't, but a lot of the school shootings would have been at least harder to commit.http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012 … -guns.html
You are correct again Chris, there is no simple overnight solution. But clearly something needs to be done to get rid of the assault rifles. Our numbers below are high as a result of our close proximity to the U.S. Hand guns make there way over the boarder and into the wrong hands. We've had a number of brazen gang related public shooting in Toronto fairly recently, but none were using assault rifles. The above article is a very Canadian point of view.
United States = 9.2
Canada = 4.78
United Kingdom = 0.25It may have something to do with religiosity as well. The UK is now heavily non-religious. Notice how much lower the statistics are when you don't believe the people you kill go to a "better place."?
Um, how did the school shootings have to do with religiosity, exactly? If anything, the shooters in Sandy Hook, Virginia Tech, Columbine and Paducah were anti-religious, if they were anything at all in that regard. So this just goes back to what I said in the first place. Columbine especially, where the story about one of the shooters ascertaining that a victim was, indeed, a Christian before shooting her is not apocryphal.
Because the starting point here is not jihad. It's school shootings in the US.Clearly the UK is doing something correct here and the America's can learn from this. I personally think taking religion out of the equation is the secular thing to do. The U.S. and Canada are similar in religious beliefs but are different in terms of gun control and that is what is apparent in the statistics. Have a look at the statistics for the countries above the States in the stats and you will notice they are largely Christian as well and all are in close proximity to the U.S. except for Swaziland. I don't think Christianity is at play here. Only gun control.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co … death_rateI agree with you for the most part, especially about Christianity not being in play here. Huckaby was playing to the base, but as a conservative Evangelical I was a bit gobsmacked when I read that he said that.
"I personally think taking religion out of the equation is the secular thing to do." That is a bloody brilliant line. I'm gonna rip that one off sometime.
Much more likely Mark is that firearms are not as readily available in the UK. Sure we all know that it's possible to rent a gun by the hour from a gang in Manchester for £100, but these gangs are not in the habit of walking into schools to kill children. Where there is gun crime it is usually at the drug gang level; a world that the everyday joe public is not exposed to. For the vast majority of us guns can be considered completely inaccessible. A mandatory 5 years in prison for possessing an illegal firearm no doubt helps too.
As someone with English relatives, I will say that there seems to be a fundamental difference in the way some things are viewed in England versus the US. I don't think the answers are as cut-and-dry as many people want to believe.
And although I hesitate to refer to Mark when not speaking directly to him, I will say this one time that a fundamental mistake that many seem to make is to lump all religions together. Although some teachers of Islam do, in fact, teach that blowing yourself up and taking "unbelievers" with you is a guarantee of getting into Paradise, Christianity emphatically denies that premise. So does Judaism.I am making a mistake huh? I see no difference between you and the fundie Islamist. None. You think you know what is right for everyone else, cannot be bothered to do any research, feel comfortable lying about the history and facts behind your irrational beliefs in order to defend them because you want some personal authority without having done anything to deserve it.
The Islamists are just a couple hundred years behind you. We pulled your teeth years ago. We will get to them.Very good. Well said. To paraphrase an old commercial, a closed mind is a terrible waste.
Good day!Ah - personal attacks because I express my honest opinion and any one who thinks your irrational beliefs are nonsense is being "close minded." The only reason you are slightly advanced is your right to legally murder on behalf of god have been done away with.
This is why your religion causes so many conflicts.
Personal attacks from me, as opposed to what? Open minded, fair and tolerant conversation from you? Try reversing the positions, pretend that someone you've never met states categorically that they know what you believe (even when they're wrong) and that what you believe is the cause of all strife, and that when you point out that they are not representing you fairly their immediate response is to claim that you are making a personal attack because, after all, your belief always causes trouble and strife.
Self-fulfilling prophecies can be insulating.
That was an interesting article. I don't agree with everything Mr. Macdonald writes, but I do agree with many of his main points. I've never owned a gun and, aside from youthful ideas about the romance of being able to accurately fire a deadly weapon if needed, have never really wanted to. Especially once I had children, because I'm all too aware that most gun deaths occur in the home of the gun owner. I have never really understood the need for average people to own fully automatic, or even semi-automatic, assault rifles.
I don't think guns solve as many problems as they cause.
America does have a love affair with guns, we've never really shed the idea that we live in some kind of wild west where the self-sufficient hero owns a gun and can use it efficiently. But just as it was true then, it is true now that a surplus of guns in the hands of emotionally inexperienced youth equals dead bodies. And the emotionally inexperienced youth, the ones who can't shrug off insults real or percieved, the ones who feel the need to display a hypermasculine, alpha-male assertiveness at all times and under all circumstances, are increasingly inhabiting bodies that are no longer young.Thanks for reading Chris, I once again find myself agreeing and liking you for your honesty. You may be one of the most honest and authentic people I've encountered in these forums. I may not alway agree with you, but I give you my respect. I'll visit all your hubs and give them the thumbs up.
_____
I'd like to add you have a lot of hubs and this is taking a while...Believe me, I appreciate the effort, but don't kill yourself. Although obviously the novel you can follow along fairly easily.
Thanks!
A mentally ill person is not aware of God perhaps...
per·haps
/pərˈ(h)aps/
Adverb
Used to express uncertainty or possibility: "perhaps I should have been frank with him".
Used when one does not wish to be too definite or assertive in the expression of an opinion.
Synonyms
maybe - possibly - perchance - probablyOkay, but I don't think you put the adverb in there the first time. Even if you did, the question still remains. I think about stuff like that a lot.
You know, I just recently learned about a tsunami which struck England in the 17th century.
Tens of thousands of people were killed, and at the time it was believed to have been a judgement from God.
Have we really evolved and learned from past mistakes and mistaken beliefs?
We now know that devastating tsunami was caused by an underground earthquake. How many people were put to the stake at that time for being heretics?
There is religion. There is science. There are murdering barstewards out there, walking the streets, just waiting on their opportunity to create carnage.
They have NOTHING to do with religion, but it is hopeful that science might one day recognize them and stop them before they can carry out acts like this.
When that happens, the good citizens of the US should be free to carry as many guns and weapons as they can afford, because nothing bad will happen to them.
Normal people have no desire to kill others.Aww yes religion. So many like To use religion for the blame game. Yes religious folks justvshove their mambo jumbo down our throats and force us to eat it.
God doesn't force anyone to do anything. He offers a better way and our words create what we eat. We are given the power to create our destiny with the words that come out of our mouth. God is a gentleman and he guides using Love.Threatening someone with hell is definitely a form of coercion.
God does not offer a better way, in fact, most of God's actions are vile and sociopathic.
Really? You actually think that the murderous psychopathic God of the bible is a gentleman? A God that drowned the entire subject of his LOVE...including children...infants...the sick and handicapped...pregnant women and their fetuses...but spared Noah(a drunk) and his immoral family.
There is something very disturbing about HIS definition of LOVE. Have you even READ the bible?I have read the Bible actually several times. Mankind was wicked much like we are today. The difference is a blood sacrifice by a sinless person. Jesus Christ who gave himself freely. We now have the promise of salvation just by accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior and believing with your heart that He is the son of God. Noah was found to be righteous in Gods eyes that doesn't sound like drunk to me. Sounds like your Bible was written by a different author than mine.
A "blood sacrifice"??? That's utter PRIMITIVE and SAVAGE nonsense. Why don't believers ever use their own common sense?
Completely useless and psychotic regurgitation. How frightening that someone could be induced to believe such brazen nonsense. Why can't believer use their critical thinking, instead of repeating the assertions of long dead, psychotic, Bronze Age goat herders
I don't value the opinion of any God who would ask me to kill my own son to test my faith, or a God who kills innocent children for laughing at a bald headed prophet...or a God who knows nothing about the universe He, supposedly, created.
A lot of people have been writing about the easy availability of weapons being the real reason of this horrific crime. It is true to a great extent. But i would like to say that even if he did not have a gun, he would have found another outlet to commit this crime. Maybe he would have become a serial offender or a rapist.
I feel that being religious helps in one way ... it forces us to meditate on our wrong doings. When we are able to understand which actions of ours are wrong, we are able to stop ourselves from repeating that action to a great extent. (I am not talking about petty behaviour) Today's children need to have some sort of training in morality and Meditation, not just at home, but also at school, where they spend a major part of their wakeful hours. It may not be religion training, but it should be spirituality training. Let us not think of this as a silly thing. In fact spirituality training can even help those who are bordering on mental problems to control their random acts. This is what i feel.So what makes "spiritual training" different from forcing religion down a kid's throat?
Apparently, perspective.
If you dislike religion to begin with then I guess introducing it to a child in any way, shape or form constitutes forcing it down their throat. Sort of the same way there's no difference between a Quaker and a hardcore jihadist.@getitrite .... While the aim of all religions (at least initially) is to make the person spiritual, spirituality is much more than that. Spiritual training is the attempt to make people live harmoniously, it is an attempt to make a person aware of his ability to have love and respect for all life forms (including self) & then work towards it. To become aware, one has to meditate on the self & thus the person becomes more calm, more peaceful. If you feel that this is not possible in schools & that children will never like it or do it, i would like to tell you that what spiritual training does is that it sits in the subconscious. Maybe when the child is just about 10 he/she will find it weird or funny & will try to disrupt the class ... but when the child grows up & faces situations in life which are not palatable, he/she automatically knows that meditation helps & starts gravitating towards it. This could prove to be the one training that could reduce crimes and make people more humane.
@ Chris ... yes it is perspective. It is the difference between being a liberal believer of God and being a stupid ritualist.It is apparent that children should learn how to be good citizens, as it is the moral thing to do. What ever makes life better for the whole of mankind should be taught...Most of what is already innate in the child. Instead of the word "meditate" I prefer the word "think"
Kids need to test their intellect against the world's. They need to rely on their reasoning faculties. If someone tells a kid something is wrong, the kids should be provided proof instead of merely quoting a 2000 year old book...or any other dubious source.my dear friend, there is a world of difference between 'meditating' and 'thinking' ... meditation is a process where you stop your process of thoughts, all those noises in the back of your head. But i do agree with all the rest that you have said
I agree. It is a sad truth that on both sides of the argument, people tend to use their predisposition as a reason to not deal with kids, either literally or by giving pat, rote answers. Kids are not stupid.
What if you're a conservative believer in God and not a stupid ritualist?
By conservative believer, would you mean that only your God is the mightiest and all other faiths are incomplete? Then i would feel that your belief is incomplete. If by conservative believer you mean that you feel that there is no question that God exists and that it is important that you surrender to that Almighty, irrespective of faith, but still you feel somewhere in the corner of your heart, that your religion is better than the others, then i would say that it is better to be conservative than be a non-believer. Just don't let your love for your religion undermine the others.
The difference between forcing religion down a kid’s throat and spiritual training is good parenting versus zealotry. A child who feels their parents care more for their choking down god than they do about the child is the child who grows up hating what their parents did by hating all religion and all religious people rather than what they should do, hate their parent’s lack of loving and caring parenting skill.
You seem to be missing the glaring point that it doesn't matter how it is introduced to the child. The fact of the matter is that, either way, the parent is LYING to the unindoctrinated child. Of course when a mind is psychotic, it does not know the difference between truth and untruth. What kind of LOVING and CARING parent tells outright LIES to his/her children...Either one who is psychotic or immoral.
This lying to children needs to stop, in this generation, so that they will not spend the rest of their lives believing in fairy tales, as you grown-up believers do. it's shameful.
I don't hate religion. If there was a religion that was based on facts, I would see no reason not to believe it...but what I do I hate is LIES! And that, my friend, is all you have.
Remove the Light and darkness will move in,when we removed God from our Gov. we also removed our protection
I agree with Huckabee on this one. If we all prayed Christian prayers everyday in school, I'd bet we'd see a difference.
The problem is one we do not want to address because if we do then we must confess there is a Holy God that hates sin. We have a sin problem and when Adam and Eve were driven from the garden because of sin and the fall, they could no longer look up but had to look out and measure themselves to the world around them. Satan had successfully convinced Eve that God was holding back on them just like he is doing today.
The problem is this, We have allowed Evolution to be taught in our public schools telling our people that life is meaningless. We were a tadpole climbed out of the ocean or came out of a monkey and we have placed ourselves as the center of our universe worshiping the creature more than the creator and do not deal with the real problem and that is that there is a devil loose who hates all mankind and wants to see us destroy our-self. God gave us a remedy for the sin problem but we want to change our environment with our humanistic reason and say man can change but the Garden of Eden proves that to be false especially with Satan and his Fallen Angels working to get into the hearts and minds of our world leaders. thank God for the Blood of Christ which cleanses us from all sin and gives us a new nature to be created unto good works.Did not most states require a person to be a born again christian to hold office in their constitution? And does not history itself and the way our Nation was formed and protected by a sovereign being as referred to be Benjamin Franklin prove his hand upon this nation but the problem is we have allowed an infiltration of people from other countries to come over here and bring their so called gods with them but I have never seen a statue walk on water.
How did they do that when the phrase wasn't even coined until the 1960's?
And how did two of the founders of the Unitarian church in America end up being presidents?
How was Kennedy President?
Oh I could write a million questions but I digress...
In response to your article: in john 3:19 states light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because there deeds were evil." People are born knowing that there is a God, because God instills the light in all of us, and through life we tend to let it go out, this is proof because it says it in the bible. I don't blame religion for what people do today I blame society, t.v., and video games, and just because someone is mentally i'll doesn't mean that they are prone to evil, you choose to be that way.
Mike Huckabee is a retard. But then I have seen few American conservatives who aren't.
Removing God from schools has nothing to do with what's happening. It shows that the government and society have to come up with a better way to deal with the mentally ill. People need to learn to recognize the symptoms, know what to expect and how to help. The government needs to take a look at the kind of help that's available to these patients and their families.
We have a neighbor in our building who suffers from schizophrenia. She lives with her 80 year old grandma who refuses to hospitalize her because she doesn't like to see her grandchild all drugged up. Meanwhile, this sick girl keeps doing her thing - puking all over the building, clogging the toilet with the hair she shaves off her head, throwing bottles from the second floor, and breaking the elevator. The neighbors have gotten together and have signed a petition for them to move, but there is nothing we can do about it unless we have the money to pay a lawyer to take the case to court. There are babies living in this building, and this mentally ill woman could set the building on fire any moment. Not to mention everyone is afraid of her. :-/ Goes to show... they need to reevaluate the services offered to the mentally ill. An 80 year old granma living with a 27 year old schizophrenic who beats her, steals her car and crashes it? Not a good idea!This is an asinine comment. Crimes like this happened when Christianity was still in school.
I didn't read all the responses to this thread, nor am I going to.
I'll just say this:
A couple of years ago, Maurice Clemmons shot and killed 4 police officers at Denny's near my hometown. Maurice Clemmons had been in jail serving a 95 year sentence...but Mike Huckabee granted him clemency...setting him free.
I didn't know any of these officers personally, but I do have 2 very good friends that were very good friends with 2 of the officers killed in action. This affected a lot of people.
Obviously, Mike Huckabee is a moron. So anything he says means dog crap to me, whether I agree with it or not.
Off topic:
Fortunately, a lone officer ran across Clemmons not too long after...on a dark street at night, and gunned him down. He claimed self defense, and it may have been....but deep inside most of us know it was probably a dirty kill - and we are 99.9% ok with that.Although everyone has a different understanding of God, perhaps Huckabee isn't completely wrong in that we have removed universal moral standards from schools and everyone just kinda plays by there own rules. I have a hard time believing that one of our leaders truly feels that God is punishing us for removing his doctrine from schools. If anything, God is probably delighted that humanity is developing to provide a more tolerant environment for all different types of students.
I would blame us Humans first, We made up the standard for achievement in this country with out first making sure people all can even handle it! When you can not keep up, either by development or money or for what other reason, then people can get caught in problems and left behind. We never admit that we create problems for other humans. Our Ego's refuse that fact. We have no willing demonstrated ability to show a means to sort it out and give real help when it is needed, Thus-some get butchered by the rest of us in one form or an other. The anger builds and it happens. It is human caused and human made. God is a convient escuse, an easy ready made excuse to feel not guilty....think
Can what he said be disproven? Logically, it would make sense. What humans do is not decided by God, it is up to us. We take faith away and a person decides to shoot up a school. Shooting people was his choice; however, something that often establishes moral was taken away from him by others. God let this happen? God doesn't save those who are damned. Death is not a bad thing, but pain and suffering are. I'm pretty sure each one of those children died a near painless death, being shot as many times as each supposedly was.
I think people need to stop blaming their bad actions on God.I don't see how that is possible, Stacie...That 'God' could be "removed" from anything...He/She/We are part & parcel of this whole sha-bang. To even toy with such a thought simply shows mis-understanding.
If thought out a bit deeper...Our political scene very much reflects our spiritual scene...Hmmm...not such a pretty pic? Perhaps many do not bother to See into mirrors...or they do, with eyes wide-shut. Tough to take personal responsibility of Life Expressed.(?) But this is what We are doing...Being an expression of Life (God)...however, in our primitive thinking We seem to enjoy the drama of creating Holy Hell rather than Heaven on Earth. (btw...Earth is no less part of 'Heaven' than any other place or space...the sum total of which is Life).
It is my observation, 'spiritual' is something one cannot not be...It is What We Are...Spirit beings. Tho,' religion' seems to have deemed itself as a control-factor of humanity here. Funny thought process, since, in my knowing, their main 'tool' is Fear, which has been well adapted by our politics, too...and in psychology are we not taught that Fear is other side of Love?
Recent 'events' simply show that Fear is not a workable Source for creatures as our Selfs...If it were, the majority would not be in such up-roar, rather peace would be at reign, yes? The more events that reflect this, the more We can See & be wiser for them...or not...simple choice, No?It was the action of humans who murdered those precious children. Whether a person believes in God or not is a moot issue. During the time of more religious involvement in America, there were the Salem Witch Trials, slavery, and other forms of horrendous discrimination. People intensely believed in religion/God then; however, religion/God was used an explanation for many of these horrific acts. To stay that the decline in religion is responsible for the mass shootings is totally illogical.
Belief and/or nonbelief in religion/God is inconclusive regarding morality and/or immorality. Throughout history, people committed heinous acts under the subterfuge of religion/God. How many so-called heretics and other so-called religious outsiders were brutally executed in the Middle Ages and in some parts of the world, even now, because they elect not to conform to the dominant religious hegemony of the said region? Millions. Until very recently, the conflict in Northern Ireland was over one thing-religion/God.
Many religious people do immoral things in the name of religion/God. Conversely, there are people who are atheists who are the epitome of kindness, charity, and morality. They are an inner directed ethics which preclude doing any type of harm to their fellow man. All they wish to do is to help humanity and obtain the highest moral good for all humankind. I would like to put this issue to rest.God shouldnt be in schools...
He might get shot
Then how does Huckabee explain the following headlines:
1. Suspected gunman in custody after Atlanta church shooting |
2. Church Shootings In Ohio, Texas Stir Concerns
3. Two dead, one critical in Md. church shooting - U.S. News
4. Arrest made in Springfield church shooting - WIS
By Huckabee's silly logic, it would appear that GOD HAS ALSO BEEN TAKEN OUT OF THE CHURCH, AS WELL. How utterly mindless.Great points. But your point is moot for many of these people.
God wasn't missing from the Church it was missing from the killer.
Not necessarily. Sat in most churches, lately?
Getitrite, I’d have to agree with Mike if he says that God has been taken out of most churches.
I’m going to explain it again so that you get it. Not every person who believes in God is a part of a man run religious body. I am one of those people. I do not like doctrine or self righteousness and that is generally what one finds within an organization.
Also, I don’t want to save you soul or need you to believe. There are millions of people who are like this. Your soul has nothing to do with my fate. All that shoving of things down people’s throats is wrong, but it is also wrong for any person to shove their own beliefs, or lack of, down anyone’s throat.
When you equate a believer with being the same people who would bash you for not believing, you are just wrong for doing it. I’ve been in and around churches my entire life and have seen every type of character inside. Some of them are hell and brimstone devout and everything about even their fellow church people is not as Godly as the hell and brimstone person is. They deserve position and admiration and you be damned to tell them that they have faults. Then there are the meek ones who wouldn’t want to offend you and see that you don’t believe and don’t want to and so they keep it to themselves.
Mike Huckabee was wrong. It’s not because schools have been secularized, it is because children aren’t raised correctly and tvs and computers are raising them. Both parents have to work these days to make it by and children are running wild and learning to hate their society. There are so many causes that I couldn’t possibly list them here. Mental illness, abuse, drugs and alcohol and violence saturation on a scale the world hasn’t seen until our time. I’m one to believe that God was never in schools anyway. What was there was personal gods and manmade self righteous religion.God is always present.....He, however; does not go against one's will. It is not only guns and people that use them that kill. People with their words and lack of understanding.....kill and rob people of hope everyday. Truly, we should think before we speak.....words, that bring spiritual death to another! Critical attitudes and perception are based on one's faith in one's own intellect. The truth is.....most have to have some excuse or reasoning not to believe. If one knows that another is being abused and does nothing to stop it.....does that place them in the same judgment that many are voicing toward God? Has one known about wrong doings, abuses, and practices that brought harm and death to other and did nothing.....how does those actions of one.....not govern the same anger, hatred and blame that many place on God?
Well, what most likely caused those things would be people like you, people who always believe Christians are to blam. You can take a look at the forums on HubPages and should be able to figure that out pretty easily.
Sorry, but this is complete, and utter, drivel.
Awareness...Intellect...Comprehension...Lucidity are all needed in order to formulate a relevant response to an assertion. Seems none of these were employed here.Please explain.
Seems that you must have been unable to employ even the slightest amount of cognitive functioning when you posted that reply. I find it quite ironic that you're using Albert Einstein's picture.Let me get this straight: An adult, who believes that a silly childish fairy tale is REALITY, is attempting to admonish me, and cast judgment on my reasoning ability. Really?!!!
:
Sorry but if one believes such stupefying nonsense, I dismiss their findings, based on the fact that they have abandoned reason all together. Adults who, blindly, believe in childish fairy tales should really look in the mirror before saying anything about cognitive functioning.That was the best response you could come up with?...I'm so very amused by your abundant stupidity!
First, lets take a look at some of Einstein's quotes.
“The theory says a lot, but does not really bring us any closer to the secret of the Old One. I, at any rate, am convinced that He does not throw dice,”
"My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind."
"All the same this faith has been largely justified so far by the success of scientific research. But, on the other hand, every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe — spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble. In this way the pursuit of science leads to a religious feeling of a special sort, which is indeed quite different from the religiosity of someone more naive."
That is why he said, "Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind.", He meant that the two go hand in hand.
Albert Einstein believed in God. So I must ask, do you dismiss all of his findings?
I do cast judgement on your reasoning, as anyone with half a brain should as well.
Now, there are plenty of others much more deserving of my time, so I will leave you to your own little world.Look. I have responded to your post while staying within the boundaries. While I am not one to report insults, you have completely crossed the line. You have been warned.
That quote can be taken out of context.
In other words you believe in fairy tales.
What do you mean by spirit? Is that a concept, or an actual being. If it's an entity, then let's see it.
You are welcome to think just what you want to, no matter how delusional it sounds.
Einstein also said: "The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this."
Leading into a straw man fallacy.
How absurd.Why is the question about Einstein a Straw Man Fallacy? He was only asking you opinion. You seem to have plenty of those, but refuse to give this one?
Is it because you are afraid to answer?No...I'm not afraid. It is your beliefs that practices fear, not mine.
He first stated that Einstein believed in God, but according to Einstein's own words, that cannot, TRULY, be established. Of course Christians would like to believe that Einstein's beliefs somehow correlates with their abject nonsense, however through Einstein's own ambivalence, both sides can stake claim to him.
So since Einstein's take on God has not been established, this is a fallacy...making the question moot.the further a human gets from the light - the blinder they become
when a human lives in total darkness they always perceive that which is not true because light is a necessity for human life to exist..
some individuals place themselves into total darkness because they are unwilling to see the light.The more one distances himself from fantasy the more they will be able see reality. Some people want to stay in the fantasy because they are afraid of reality.
+++
Could not have put it better myself.blindness seems to be a very real problem in today's society since many people believe that it is easier to deny reality.
many people possess a very personal bias composed within themselves that never allow them to be the light.
I live reality everyday because I am not afraid of anything.
I have experienced everything except death in my lifetime and fully understand that I am the responsible light that must shine for those around me if I am to teach them to live a moral life.
Psychotic delusion is not LIGHT. In fact it is a distortion of reality, making it impossible to see simply obvious and ACTUAL occurrences..
you must be speaking of your personal background becuase you know nothing of my true experience and background.
you obviously have a very personal bias built within yourself that will never allow you to find the light.Why do you insist on attempting to draw others into a fantasy world by using the words truth or light? To suspend yourself into fantasy you need to push reality and the truth aside. Like watch the latest spiderman or batman movie, you know this isn't reality or the truth, but to enjoy the movie you need to put those things aside. Most of us come back to reality when the movie is over, but you ask us to stay suspended without truth or light into the fantasy world. Why, don't you like reality?
You're right I don't know your background, however I do live in reality, and know that general psychology suggests that what you have asserted to believe, here in the forums, is nothing but delusional nonsense.
No, actually, I have a built-in BS meter.
In your reply, Getitrite, you asked "What do you mean by spirit?" and I was quoting Albert Einstein; therefor, you'd have to ask him. From what I've read, I don't think Einstein necessarily believed in "God". However, I think he believed in a higher power, as to what he considered a higher power, I do not know.
Ever since I was little, I've always found Einsteins theories and thoughts quite fascinating. Everything you (Getitrite) seem to be is nearly the complete opposite of what I'd envision Einstein to be. You speak of not believing in anything that you cannot see, Einstein spoke of the importance of imagination.
-“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.”
-“Imagination is everything. It is the preview of life's coming attractions.”
-“The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination.”
-“Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
I agree with much of what JRScarbrough had to say in both this reply and the one below. As JRScarbrough said, Einstein's point of view often contradicted itself and, to me, it seemed to regularly depend upon who he was talking to. I also think Einstein was fairly displeased with his inability to understand how things came to be and what existed beyond the things he could see. While he understood the workings of nearly everything involving physics here on earth, there were things beyond his comprehension which boggled his mind. There were things he did not have the answer to, which I think made it hard for him to believe in anything. How could he believe in something he didn't have the answer to...
When Einstein said childish, it seems he is referring to the people, both writing the bible and the ones being written about. Therefor, what he said may be true, as many of them were nothing more than humans. I'm also pretty sure he looked towards God the way many atheists do. Asking, if there were a God, why would a perfect God create an imperfect world.
In the end, none of this really matters because Einstein was nothing more than a human. He was just like the rest of us, no better or worse than any mortal.
Getitrite, why is it that you try to offend as many people as you can? Everyones entitled to their own views, ideas, thoughts, beliefs...etc... I originally replied on impulse. Being cruel, rude, or offensive is something I usually try to avoid. What I write is, for the most part, just my opinion. I'm not telling you to believe what I do.
Oh, and report me?...What is this grade school? I apologize for offending you, but be a man about it, don't threaten to report someone on a forum.
That’s my point exactly. Albert Einstein did not consider himself special in any way. The only that is certain is that Einstein hated to be categorized into any mainstream philosophical ideology. We can;t be certain anything written of him is accurate. He was very iffy on his beliefs because as we all do over time, he changed positions and thoughts.
Besides, just because he was smart, doesn’t justify anyone believing his assumptions on anything are special in any way. Just because the world’s greatest surgeon thinks cats suck, does not mean cats suck.
My entire point has been none of that has any place in this discussion. To even be having an atheism/theism debate within the original post’s intent is off topic. To have even began the discussion about believing that religion is dumb and that believers are somehow promoting war and delusion is off topic.
Were Huckabee’s words accurate or completely off base? I think he was wrong. I think Huckabee is attempting to gain political support from zealots and calculated a comment that would gain himself support from a certain segment of religious zealots.
Not every religious person is the same or made of the same stuff. I don’t think “God” was ever in any classroom anyway. When we could pray in school and all of that, we still fought on the playground, bullied, made others feel bad and it was a rough place to be. Just like today. So, the entire conversation about Einstein and atheism being the superior intellectual position is moot within the context of this original post.
I’m not your adversary. In fact, you would read, I’ve always agreed that some religions are dangerous and idiotic as do many of my fellow believers. It just isn’t our right to end those religions or prevent those religions from existing. The United States was founded upon the idea that a person should have the right to practice whatever they believe. Our only disagreement is on that matter.
I suspect Albert Einstein would have been horrified to know that people were putting him up on a pedestal as some ultra-smart scientist. If you were able to talk directly to him, I am sure he would have told you the errors he made during his researches; he would have described his doubts about various theories; he would have described his impression of the general public that wanted answers in a nutshell, explaining every last thing about the universe.
So please be careful when you quote him that you don't exaggerate him. He was great, he was clever, but he was not infallible.This was my point on Einstein. That he was ultra-smart in the intuition department. But when it came to proof, he was as boggled as anyone else. He made so many mistakes and had a lot of emotional turmoil and self doubt. He did not consider himself special in any way and hated when anyone placed him into some elevated position. He did not want it.
What he believed about God and creation can be supported either way. He was vert iffy and could one day seem to not believe in an intelligent God, while other days he seemed to be saying there was no doubt something higher existed. His biographer seemed to believe that he believed in a God that is unconventional. It was a God that was everywhere but didn’t even acknowledge us. It is hard to say what the real Einstein really believed. By the time anything was studied into, he had reached a God status of his own and everyone made him uncomfortable by putting too much into every single word he said.
I think he was miserable from all that attention.
...its not God anywhere or not that causes problems...its the concept of God within or not within the individual...God = Love, Peace, Joy, Compassion, etc, all virtue that comes from a self transcendent sense that one is united with God (a Power that is greater than onesself)
I imagine you have proof of these claims...of this Power that is greater than onesself. If not, why are you informing me of such unfounded fantasy?
"SparklingJewel wrote:
...its not God anywhere or not that causes problems...its the concept of God within or not within the individual...God = Love, Peace, Joy, Compassion, etc, all virtue that comes from a self transcendent sense that one is united with God (a Power that is greater than onesself)"
You might be surprised to see me come in on SparklingJewel's side here, but I can see his point of view. The "one-ness" that he speaks of is akin to my understanding.....it's when "I" become at-one-with everything that I can experience true, unconditional Love. I prefer to call that transcendent Self the "Power at the Centre of the Universe," rather than "god," because the latter has taken on such diverse and conflicting connotations.
Proof of any of this is not forthcoming.... it's where I also say it's "personally experienced," can't be proven, dis-proven... Also, the "part cannot be greater than the whole," and I am only an infinitesimal part....well, you know, it's proof enough for me to admit that I can't create a baby without that form of help (God's) which is a mystery as to how it occurs...and I am not talking about the conception aspect, I am talking about the actual development of a human being within my body. I experienced it 4 times and it is the most awesome experience
Are you suggesting Atheists can't make babies?
Odd - I understand how the human body maintains a baby in utero. Does that mean there isn't a god until I find something I can't understand.
Having trouble with Motion 5 and Final Cut Pro X right now - is that a sign?Repent and pray and all will be revealed. Or Command+q, it that doesn't work command,option+esc, but I don't think it's a problem with the software your talking about. :lol
That’s not what she is saying at all. She is saying that it was proof enough to her during her pregnancies that God must exist due to the ability to even know such a thing and have it happen to her. It might not be enough for someone else, but her personal experience can’t be proven or disproven, it is what she experienced. It was how she explains God.
In my experience, it is evidence enough for me that we can fathom. We can communicate these things to one another and have deep conversations about our own existence. There is no other life form that we know of that has this ability. We are separated from all life on earth by our comprehension and our intellect. This self awareness is what gives us the ability to acknowledge that there must be something higher because at our advanced place on the “evolutionary platform”, we still cannot attain universal perfection and peace or love. There has to be something better than the human being. If there isn’t, then this entire happenstance should burn and fade away. It wouldn’t matter to me.What? sorry, can't get where you are coming from on that point
Okay, I'll try again.
You said "I can't create a baby without that form of help (God's) which is a mystery as to how it occurs..."
You can't create a baby without God's help? Atheist's have babies without Gods help, so therefore you don't need Gods help to have babies. No?...oh, I see what you are trying to say...and so my response is, atheists are not having babies without God's help...for God's help is the way of the natural universe...it is the consciousness of the human individual that has a problem with understanding/knowing/accepting it is part of the natural universe that is God...
I think most people that don't believe in God are just stuck in someone else's definition of God...
Who is to say that even a non-believer doesn’t have help? Maybe they just don’t believe they had help.
Just because you don't understand something, you think you can insert God as the answer. Perhaps some basic courses in Physical Science and Biology would expand your parameters beyond this restricted mindset. This is severe one dimensional thinking...devoid of any in-depth critical analysis.
...and you know that I don't' have PhDs in those fields? maybe, I have studied and encountered all of those material aspects of life and found them unsatisfying...the unknown of the soul and "inner dimensions" is the last great frontier...the physical dimensions may be enough for you, but not for me
I think all is important and provides the answers to a full lifeYou don't want to study the real world anymore, you want to look for the meaning of life in the spaces between reality?
If you do, then there is something that has gone terribly wrong.
Then you prefer delusion over reality. There is a name for that, and it has nothing to do with any Gods.
I guess it's strange that I can have a full life without believing in silly superstitions..
...It's DNA. Your DNA has information on how to recreate you. And your partner also delivers their DNA. Both strands of DNA have a grudge match over each individual facet, and the winner determines the outcome. This is called "Genetics," and it decides how your offspring will be built!
"That we're not just gonna have to be accountable to the police if they catch us but one day we stand before a holy God in judgment. If we don't believe that, then we don't fear that," he said.
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/12/1 … n-schools/
Notice that Huckabee has no concept whatsoever as to how or why to behave or conduct himself with respect and dignity towards others without having fear as an incentive to do so.The only thing we have lost at school are parents that care. If a family is going to practice a religion it should not be the job of strangers to teach it. Parents should try just being parents. Teaching your children, caring for them, making sure they grow up in a positive environment, you know parenting. Sadly we don't have enough of that and instead have people getting other people to raise their children.
Amen to that.
First off though let me say that bashing someone's religion is immature and childish. If people would just let people be, life wouldn't be so uncomfortable for everyone. So what if Johhny reads the bible and Susie doesn't? That's their problem. There are many different reasons the world is going to pot, there's no point in all of us trying to figure it out, we never will. That is why it's obvious there is something bigger than us out there, maybe it's just government, maybe evolution exists, maybe there are aliens. Not one of us knows any of this for a fact so there's no point in arguing about it.
Do I think this subject needs to be debated? Of course, but when people start getting nasty and judging others, that is where I personally draw the line.
We are the human race no matter what is going on in society. The way to change it is to start by changing ourselves.
a reply here is a waste of time with this bunch of fools. " "a fool says in his heart there is no god"
Nice shot, rather cheap and low, but it certainly didn't miss the broad side of the barn.
And now all you need to do is prove scripture the word of God and you got something.
So, is this how you normally behave, cowering behind scriptures in order to insult others?
Meaning you have all the answers. You speak with your posterior, instead of your tongue, you think with your heart and not your brain, you pump rubbish with your brain and it seems to have no useful blood supply.
Analogy and metaphor can be useful, but since you don't seem to recognise them as such I have to agree with you, it would be a waste of time discussing anything with you...... up to you if you want to change my mind.A little of that was a bit insulting, and I apologise. However, having switched off the computer and strolled the garden, and considered my response a little more, there is something else that must be said.
Some people have discussed/argued the point about mental illness. I would prefer to address the "mentality."
The United States of America is home, as far as I can assess, to fanaticism in all its glory! Whether it's in terms of religion, or commercialism, or technical wizardry, it seems many individuals are unable, or un-willing, to see the big picture.
"celafoe" is a clear example of this. He or she is absolutely submerged in that born again, fanatical religious fervor, and unable to see there might, just might, be another valid reason for many of America's woes, beyond scripture and beliefs.
We see it in some dietary fads. Butter, cholesterol, sugar, salt, High Fructose Corn Syrup, Canola Oil. In the promotion of lifestyle changes: AMWAY, Landmark Forum, Siddha Yoga, and all the other zealous traits you can think of. "This is the reason you got problems." "This will prolong your life by 20 years." "Pray this or that, 5 times a day for 6 months and will be 'saved!'" "This is the one way to lose weight...Individuals have the singular answer for our lives, and we suck it in total belief.
What has happened to your broad integrated teaching and learning in schools? Why are you adults in America stooping down to the kids' level and trying to be like them, instead of learning to be adults good and proper, with something of value to teach those kids? It seems like the whole of America is behaving like the Hollywood gangster movie..... not talking like adults, but shouting like kids in the play ground. Everything has to be presented as larger than life. Women are trying to behave like men; men are trying to slot into the vacancies left by women; all with equal lack of success.
I am talking, again, about mentality. It's not just the US of A. We get a similar fanaticism here in Australia, on the football field, cricket pitch, athletics track. Win at any cost. Then ignore the losers, so they go away quietly and allow you to enjoy the accolades. Very rarely is there any middle ground, where winner meets loser, they shake hands, IN PUBLIC, and show a mature outlook on life.
Be a christian; be an atheist; be a muslim; you don't need to be a fanatic. There is room in your life to consider and live alongside anyone else. But while you are immersing your life in that one-track mind stuff, there is basic science and the wonders of this world to talk about.
- EmpressFelicityposted 12 years ago
0A god who would kill 27 innocent kids just to tell us that he was pissed off us with is a god I would most definitely not want to worship.
God had nohting to do with this. It was caused by a God less society that has rejected God. Those that belong to God did not and never would do something like this. This was the work of a depraved individual who did as society says to do. "if it feels good do it". A real Christian would know not to do this as it is against the law of God. Unfortunately God gave us a free will and some choose to follow self and others of us understand and follow Christ. As government at the request of unGodly people continues to legitimize sin then you can expect more of such evil. as has been happening the last 30 years
...and what about if it was someone mentally ill who did the killing - say, a schizophrenic? Are you seriously suggesting that all such a person has to do is convert to Christianity and voila! No more homicidal thoughts?
yes menta illness is a demonic thing and the cross of Christ can remove it like any other illness. Unfortunately the apostate church has done a great disservice to the cause of Christ. God does not desire us to be sick but it takes complete submission to Him for healing. I have personally seen most sicknesses healed and even a man raised from the dead. But it takes great faith in God through Christ as explained in the scriptures. Too many ministers are not even Christians and do not believe themselves but they make a great living playing.
Tell that to the kids abused by Catholic priests.
catholocism is NOT a Christian religion. Any one understanding the scriptures can clearly see this. Bible says " call no man father" cc says call their ungodly priests father. Bible says " there is only one way to God through the man Christ Jesus". ccc says mary is co-redeemer
and i can give 100 more reasons
Blimey. And if the cure doesn't happen, then it's obviously 'cos the person JUST DIDN'T PRAY ENOUGH.
I can't believe that anyone thinks like this in the developed world in the 21st century. But then I am a heathen atheist Brit, so what do I know?What it actually takes is a team of really good doctors. If you were correct then there would be no christians in hospitals. You would have actual evidence of God. But you don't. There would also be no Christians in prison, but that's no the case either.
I'm sorry, did someone say mental illness was a demonic thing that could be removed by christ?!?!?!? Really?!?!?!
You have, now, lost ALL CREDIBILITY. This statement suggests a serious disconnect from reality.
Sometimes, mental health problems don't lead to violent acts, but most certainly lead some into saying the most ridiculous things.
Belief in the supernatural is one of the symptoms of schizophrenia.
Although I totally disagree with celafoe's points, being condescending of an individuals faith in no way supposrts your arguements, although I'm sure you think it does, but it is only your opinion.
celafoe, you are certainly good at story telling. Fiction of course.
Isn't the US one of the most Christian nations? Clearly there is another factor here and what could that be... wait I know... guns? Go ahead blame the secular society and keep your guns.
not any more. the democratic party voted God out and the majority of the us voted for satans henchman barry soetoro alias barak obummer
Wow, I am a Christiam and a Democrat, Obama supporter. God is not punishing society, you can not blame all of the evils of this world on a political party, that is ridiculous! As a believer you should see these are clear signs of the times inwhich we are living.Humanity will either evolve into a more loving tolerant creation or will, at our own hand, cease to exist...
The KKK, which is an organization that belongs to God, did this kind of thing all the time. In fact, they once bombed a church, killing several young girls.
You're absolutely right. No Christian has ever committed a crime!
- ahorsebackposted 12 years ago0
I will never understand the idiousy of these threads and the supposed intellectual minds that post them, we will just never get it ! Its Mike Huckaby"s Fault ! ........ Its an inanimate piece of irons fault !.........It's especially Gods fault ........it's the GOP's fault !........Yup , its anybody's fault but our own ! Because if we were to blame [at least partialy ] Then you wouldn't be allowing yourself and your offspring to to degrade into a culture of immorality , of selfishness and greed , of video game minds who can't distinguish between reality and a computor screen , you wouldn't be allowing your congress to completely defund mental health services in this country to an absolute and total empty shell of health care system . Bet you don't believe in the death penalty either do you ? The criminal justice system in America is loaded down with plea bargaining crime down to even the non-existance wrist slapping ,AND the moral and ethical accountability of the younger culture in America is merely following through with this .Look to your mirrorr if you want the truth , And the answer !
+100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
You're not allowed to pimp your articles in the forum? How lame.
Anyway, I wrote a hub about this. And I think it's horribly unfair to say this and theologically makes no sense either.
What Huckabee forgets is, just because God and religion are not taught or mentioned in public schools anymore, doesn't mean that the individuals working there, don't beleive in God.
It looks like the community is faith based and peaceful for the most part.- ahorsebackposted 12 years ago0
As one in the " middle " ,of this issue, I am pretty amazed at the extreme lack of intellectual maturity in these threads . So many people on both sides of the whole" God "issue are lacking in empathy to others ! But hey , a lack of empathy is to blame for this shooting as well isn't it ? Do you suffer from this affliction !
A lack of empathy is not responsible for this shooting. The responsibility rest of easy access to guns and ammunition. It's impossible to prevent all form of mental problems, they exist everywhere, but these kinds of horrific events happen more often when there is easy access to weapons.
I think they both work quite well together. A lack of empathy and easy access to semi-automatic weapons. Sumeone who has empathy isn't able to shoot a classroom of 6-7 children unless they are mentally ill, but most mass murderes, contrary to what we'd like to believe, aren't so.
Most school shooters are on medication for mental illness.
I stand corrected. I think my understanding of mental illness was fairly narrow. Anyway, I just read an article on the probable connection between use of such medications and these types of violence.
http://www.wnd.com/2007/07/42434/
You are correct, they're not mentally ill, but psychopathic or narcissistic. Unfortunately those personality types hid and function well into society. The only real defence is to take weapons away from them.
psychopathic or narcissistic people are so much worse then anyone with mental illness. People with mental illness are not evil, they need medical help. Like someone with diabetes, also needs medical help.
Of course they are not evil but they do evil things.
Psychopathic people do have mental illness.
easy to see you have no knowledge on the subject. check england, canada and australia then check switzerland. you liberals just dont care for the truth switzerland and one city in our state of georgia require gun ownership and they are the safest places in the world. bad or no parenting and lack of morals could not possibly be the problem to a liberal
Total firearm related death rate per 100,000 people
United States = 9.2
Canada = 4.78
Australia = 1.05
Switzerland = 3.5
United Kingdom = 0.25
Thanks for making my point. Gun control makes for a safer society.
- ahorsebackposted 12 years ago0
Two sheds , you seem a bit bitter for a non-believer , or are you just trying to push buttons ?
Murder is inherently in the hearts of (some) men. Religious, or otherwise makes little difference, except for those who wish to argue the point (for or) against.
If they were correct, then, removing of ALL religion from society would, in their minds ideal, there would be vastly less or no killings whatsoever. CLEARLY this would not be the case, and anyone not accepting that is living a fantasy.
There is violence in every country, and atrocities do not know political, religious or societal boundaries. The real difference is that the media magnifies, and focuses on what "it" wants to use to create an atmosphere within the society, to produce an end result. How is it that all the innocent deaths around the globe go unreported? Because they are not useful to them to report.
The media, and the authorities will see to it that there will be more such events take place. They either do not want to stop it, but more likely, do not have the MEANS to stop it. Taking guns off people will not remove murderous intent from (some) men's hearts. They will kill!
Perhaps the Gov't will introduce an agency like that of the movie Minority Report, and arrest would be criminals before they act.
As a Christian, as much as I can understand Romney's point, it still falls into the category of fantasy, because, even with God (allowed) in schools, the return of prayer, Bible reading etc, would still not produce the results that all parties desire. A "perfect" world.Perhaps, but that would an infinitesimally tiny percentage of the population, and it usually has something to do with mental problems, not heart problems. The vast majority of folks have no such intent, and in fact, violent acts such as murder will make them sick to their stomachs.
It is a fact that religions cause a tremendous amount of conflict in the world, but that is the fault of the religion itself, which teaches its followers that all others not of the religion are evil or not worthy, and that those beliefs are to be spread about in order for conversions to take place. This starts conflict.
If the religions would just keep their beliefs behind closed doors where they belong, there would be a lot less conflict. If religions aren't prepared to do that, they will have to expect others will stand up against them in order to stop the conflict.
Blaming the media is not the answer.
We know a 'perfect world' is a fantasy, so why bother believing it will ever happen. The best we can do is stop as much conflict as possible. Believers must take the first step and stop proselytizing there religions and begin accepting others who don't share their beliefs.I don't understand your line by line reply!
Why bother?
Your comments hardly address my post.
If the murderous people constitute a small percentage of the populace, then you have just agreed with me.
I note you are illiterate as regards the meaning of "heart".
I never refer to the blood pump, as you call it.
I wonder if you have ever heard statements like, "He has no heart", or cruel people can be called heartless. Or, "let's get to the heart of the matter".
Obviously a blood pump is an illogical meaning in these instances.Yes, they do, but evidently by your own admittance, you are unable to comprehend them.
Yet, your religion teaches that ALL men are evil, not just some. Which is it, all or some? Are you evil and murderous?I see you avoided the "heart of the matter" to score some cheap shots at the definition of evil.
Based on your foundations of our existence, it matters not who kills whom. Ater all, the strongest survive. If there are killers among us, they must have evolved that way, and we, as a society have no real basis to impose any "laws" upon them.
Isn't it a natural way to keep overpopulation in check?
Or should we develop drugs that have lethal side effects, spread incurable deseases, pollute the environment, and waste food. Spend trillions on warfare, and neglect the suffering poor.
That's a fine way to treat humanity, but hey, evolution dictates we reduce the population, or else we kill the entire planet.
PS, Don't worry, the NWO proponents are working on that. I hope you won't be too upset, if you and your family don't fall into the "spared" group.What?
You don't know?
I thought you were well educated.
Use your skills, intellect and reason to find out.YOU MEAN THESE GUYS???
Yep. They do seem to be proponents.
There's a basic misunderstanding of religion at play here. Or at work, pick your metaphor.
I don't know about other religions. I don't want to make claims for Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Ba'hai or even Raliens. Christianity the religion teaches that all human beings are: a) made in the image of God, and b) are evil and not worthy, and c) God has decided to allow us in anyway, based on certain conditions. What this means in practical terms is that the religion cannot "just keep their beliefs behind closed doors where they belong" anymore than those who believe in flouride in the water can or vaccines to prevent serious illnesses. The difference is that it's not a physical sickness.
Many of the people who practice the religion (both preachers and laypeople) certainly act as if they are good people and those "outside the village" are evil and unworthy. It's sad and unfortunate, but hardly unique to religious people. Going back and looking at some of the stuff I've written, I can see how I could come across that way, for which I'm sorry. I'm not immune, although I try to remind myself that if I were actually better than anyone else, I'd be in charge. Obviously, I'm not.
As to the rest of your statement, I don't know nothin' about what Romney said, though I can guess.Yup - this is the root of all the conflicts your religion causes. You cannot keep your holier than thou, "I am saved and I want to save you too, because I know what is right for you," attitude to yourselves.
I wonder if you are starting to understand why there have been so many conflicts over this now?
Not sure how this is a misunderstanding of your irrational beliefs. We all know that you think you have the answer without doing any personal development and you think you know what everybody else should be doing. We get it. How is this a misunderstanding?It's a misunderstanding when you take what I wrote and claim I was saying something else? That would definitely be the answer.
Where is the fundamental misunderstanding exactly? I guess we both agree that your irrational beliefs require you to keep spreading them no matter how many arguments they cause in that case?
Do you finally get what I am saying? Perhaps it may be time to reconsider these beliefs?Believe me, one of us understood the other a long time ago. And it wasn't you.
But Chris, we both know that "b" is not true. What you're saying is that you and I are both evil, your doctor, the teacher who teaches your children at school, your parents, your neighbors, your passed on wife, absolutely everyone you ever met and will every know are all pure evil.
Yet, that is absolutely pure nonsense and you know it. The vast majority of us are decent folks who are sickened at the thought and action of any kind of violence. Sure, there is a tiny minority of folks who do bad things, but many of them are not really evil, they simply got caught up in circumstance and most likely regret their actions. Usually, we find those who have no remorse of such things have mental problems, but that doesn't make them evil.
And of course, if "a" were true, then God is evil.
It's a pack of lies, Chris, and you know it. We are not all evil, hence there is no point to consider this as reason for evangelizing a religion. In fact, what you're doing here is equating religious beliefs to a political campaign, in which the negative values of the opposing candidate are used to win the election as opposed to the party selling itself on the positive aspects of what it can do if elected.
All that shows is that the religions were created in a time when folks were tribal. We have moved beyond being tribal and no longer need to look at others as "outside the village" because we are all the same; compassionate human beings.
But Chris, you don't need to be better than me and I don't need to be better than you, and neither of us need tell the other how to live their good, decent lives.Yes, that is what I'm saying. The difference is in how you measure and even define evil.
Again, that depends on how you define evil. If you contrast human beings against the absolute purity of God, then humans are evil.
Having said that, I've also said many times, and firmly believe, that being a Christian doesn't make you "nice" or "good." There are plenty of non-believers who would give the shirt off their back to someone in need and plenty of believers who can stab people in the back without a second thought. And vice versa as well. Yes, the majority of people are indeed sickened by real world violence. And yes, many of the people who do commit real world violence are caught up in circumstances and have feelings of remorse. The Mansons and the Hitlers, not so much. And those are the people who most of us can agree are, indeed, evil. I find it hard to justify that Charles Manson is insane, but he is one scary dude.
That was my fault for just giving the bare bones theology. We are indeed created in God's image, and the Bible does not equivocate on that. That means that straight, gay, black, white, red brown and yellow, healthy, Down's, autistic, quadripalegic, all are made in the image of God. But once here on Earth we become infected, if you will, with the evil and turn away from God, the Creator of us all. God's greatest desire is that we love and follow Him, and Jesus made it pretty clear that if we don't, we won't get into Heaven. But He made a way for us to be able to get back to Him no matter how far we've strayed. So, no, God is not evil.
While it's certainly true that many people both within and without Christianity treat evangelization that way, or as just another way to have the good life now (which is almost worse,) what both treatments do is completely miss the point. Sort of winning battle while losing the war. It's not about God good/devil bad and which side will you choose? It's about you and your relationship with God. And the fact is that relationship has eternal consequences.
And again, a lot of it has to do with how you look at and define "evil." If you compare yourself to other people, it's not hard to say that you're better than so-and-so, even if only in one area. If you compare yourself to God, however...
On the contrary, if you look at human behavior today, you will see that most groups still practice some kind of tribalism. For many people I'm totally "off the reservation" because of what I've been saying. I do agree that most human beings are compassionate, even some people who I wouldn't have thought would show me compassion have done so. But most people still exhibit some kind of tribalism. It's an inate human process. The "Brotherhood of Man" (a Christian conception) doesn't translate well in the real world. Don't get me wrong, I don't endorse violence, I would love to see an end to war. I'm just dealing with what is.
I agree, one hundred percent and with all my heart. It's not from other people that I learn how I should live my life. Let me clarify, of course human beings look at other humans beings to see what they should and shouldn't do. We do it as children and we do it as adults. It's the rare person is completely self-sufficient. But it is the Bible that teaches me right and wrong.
And humans are entitled to live the way they want, within reason (you know, like not murdering or robbing from other people.) One person cannot save another, religiously speaking. We are all accountable for our own actions.You mean like pulling the wings off of flies evil or flying commercial airliners into skyscrapers evil?
Seriously dude, few if any of us are like that and you know it. We don't wake up in the morning planning the evil events of the day like some Addams Family movie..
That is irrelevant to the fact of thinking and committing evil acts.
Of course, he's insane, there's no question about that. Notice that what you just said though, does in fact show most people are not evil.
What evil on Earth? What infections? Earth is just a planet.
Then, we are not created in His image if we are evil. His desires for our devotion are irrelevant to that fact.
That is not a reason for evangelizing. You have your own relationship to look after and other people have theirs, which is not anyone's business but theirs.
Again, that is irrelevant to the fact of whether or not one thinks and commits evil acts, which for the vast majority of us, don't. Thus, the comparison is moot.
Yes, religions.
Then, you agree with me and disagree most people are evil.
Neither do I, and I'll bet a plug nickel both of us didn't need a holy book to come to that realization.
Exactly. So, there's no reason to evangelize a religion and every reason to keep it behind closed doors.I mean like turning away from the Creator of all things evil. If God exists (and yes, God exists) and He is who He says He is (and the Bible is pretty unequivocal about that) then He is good and turning away from Him is evil. I know that's a definition of evil shared by very few people, even within the Church, and that not many people actually understand what is meant by that, but that's what I'm talking about.
And I didn't say that many people do that. In fact, I said that there are lots of very nice, compassionate people in the world.
As someone who knows that God exists, I don't know how that's even possible. I know that by the definition most people use of evil, you may be right, no scratch that. The existence of God is intrinsic to the understanding of evil. The way a person understand God is intrinsic to their understanding of evil.
Manson was found legally sane to stand trial. That diagnosis has not changed. Neither was Hitler insane. Most normal humans are unable to grasp what could drive a person to act like that, and conclude they must be insane. But they fully understood the difference between right and wrong, didn't hear voices, and in general seemed pretty connected to the real world. They weren't/aren't schizophrenic.
What I said fits nicely with your conception of people not being evil because I said, in effect, that most people are not actively planning or committing heinous acts like, well, you know. And they're not. But I did not say that people are not evil. Go back to my previous definition thereof. Most people don't want to think that way, I mean using that definition. Many people can't handle it, really. It's hard, and contrary to what God wants it can harden a person if they let it.
True, Earth is just a big blue marble, hanging in the sky, third rock from the sun (I have listened to way too much music.) But people are not simply lumps of flesh walking around. We think and act and influence and desire and scheme. And evil exists on Earth.
Again, I should probably have been a little more clear. We are made in God's image, every single one of us. That is why we can have Godly attributes like love, anger, and suffering. It is our turning away from God that is the evil. And God did not create us to turn away. And His desire for our devotion is anything but irrelevant to this whole discussion.
But part of my relationship with God is telling people about how they were created in His image and what being separated from Him means. It's true that their relationship with Him is exactly that, their relationship. Not mine. But God has made it clear that if we treat other people that way, stay out of their business and never tell them about God, we are responsible for their blood. It won't keep us out of Heaven, necessarily, but we will still have to answer for that.
That does not mean I'm free to shove my opinions down other people's throats. I don't know everything. For instance, you and I are engaged in conversation and as long as we do so, I will explain and defend my position and, if I'm wrong, hopeful correct course. Other people here I don't engage with because they see me as intrusive. They know what I think and they don't appreciate that. Most people are not convinced by some nut banging on their door and shouting at them no matter how many times they are told to go away. And some people see my saying things like this under any circumstances as an invasion of their privacy, no matter what the forum or situation. So, hopefully, I've gained the grace to not bug those people. But as you know full well, it wasn't always so.
On the contrary, it's central to the entire conversation. If there's no God (which is what I think you believe) then I'm just another nut job, and Mark is right. There's no difference between me and the hardcore jihadist. Well, there is, but it's a matter of degree, not whether I'm actually right or wrong.
If, on the other hand, there is a God, then the definition of what is and is not evil takes on a very different hue. And the differences between me and a hardcore jihadist, or me and Rob Bell, become very stark indeed.
A tad glib, but not altogether untrue. Limited though. Religions, anti-religious, nerds, jocks, anybody attending any kind of convention, politicians, musicians, novelists, dentists.
I mean, come on. Tell me that you've never complained about the polarization of American politics. You might be Canadian, I forget who all is Canadian in these forums, but even Canadians and Europeans comment on American politics. If the whole Republican/Democrat division as it currently manifests isn't tribalism (and largely devoid of religion, to boot,) then nothing is.
I think that's been pretty well covered. No, I'm not agreeing with that.
I've never actually seen a plugged nickel. Can you put up a photo?
Seriously, like in many cases, people who are bound and determined can "force" the Bible to agree with them. But you're right, I didn't need the Bible to make me averse to violence as a solution, modern media notwithstanding. However, my reading of Jesus' teachings leads me to believe that violence is not what God wants.
Not quite. There's every reason to evangelize, but we have to realize that not everyone will respond. Keeping it behind closed doors is actually the last thing we should do.Hi Chris. Merry Christmas. You have made one point I consider to be a valid one. I don't think people should keep their beliefs private. I think it is good to voice opinions in order for others to respond. It helps us all think and will, hopefully, move us all forward toward a more compassionate view of our fellow man. I think history proves this to be true.
I'm afraid I find the rest of your post to lack merit. Cosmically speaking. I don't think evil can be described as turning your back on another person's idea of a god. Seriously. Who can claim to know the mind and will of God? The Calvinists? The Catholics? Westboro Baptist church? Islam? I think, if evil has a face it manifests as selfishness. All things bad start when we stop considering the needs of others and focus on our own desires and beliefs.Merry Christmas to you as well, Emile!
I don't describe evil as turning your back on an idea of god. If God is merely a concept then yeah, you're right. No blood, no error, no foul. But if there is a personal God, meaning that God is a person unto Himself and not an idea or part of everything without a body of His own, then turning away from Him is evil.
You make a good point. Whether the Catholics or Westboro or anyone else has the "right idea" of God is, though, not as important as many want to believe. Everyone has to work out their own relationship with God. That's what the Bible is for. And prayer. God works in other ways too, but it's ultimately you who has the relationship with Him, not me for you or anyone else.
Saying that evil manifests itself as selfishness is, I agree, a profound statement and at the heart of the whole matter.
Merry Christmas!
Genuinely don't care about what any one else thinks do you? Stick it to them no matter how many conflicts it causes.
Merry Christmas to you.Boy, was that not what I said!
Ah well.
To make use of my high school French; Joyeux Noël mon ami!Yes - you did. You just don't understand why it causes so many conflicts. Nor do you care it seems.
Keeping it behind closed doors is the best thing you could do to minimize conflicts, but - you have many,, many reasons not to do so - right? You know what is best for everyone and need to tell them. This is what causes the conflicts.
Happy Saturnalia.Mark, you are one funny, funny guy.
Happy Middlemoose.I take it from your response that you are unfamiliar with the Pagan roots of your religion? I should not be surprised, I suppose.
http://thetruthandlight.wordpress.com/2 … christmas/
http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ … lStory.htm
I know you are interested in history, and this is another rather large gap in your knowledge that probably stems from your desire to evangelize rather than learn anything.
My pleasure.My pleasure too, Mark. If you really think that about me by now, then you have simply not been paying attention. It's like you're Charlie Brown (or Linus, although he's too theological, maybe Schroeder?) and I'm the generic adult. I speak and you hear, "Waah waah wah wah waah."
I've acknowledged the pagan "roots" and discussed them before. Maybe not with you, but certainly on forums where you had a presence. I'm certainly aware of Saturnalia, and many of the pagan roots of many Catholic traditions. Traditions, I might add though you ought to know this, that I don't follow.
The time has come, the walrus said, to talk of many things...
That isn't evil, that is supposed to be a free choice. One can live a life without evil and not accept your God. That is a fact.
No one has ever shown that, so it would be dishonest to make that positive claim.
That makes no sense whatsoever. Evil is about one who commits evil acts, which has nothing to do with who you turn away from or who you associate with.
It's a meaningless definition.
Exactly, which makes your argument moot for all people in the world.
Nonsense, evil is contained only within the acts of individuals or groups and has nothing to do with the existence of gods. You just said there are "lots of very nice, compassionate people in the world", many of them do not believe in your God.
You scheme?
Where exactly? Show me where evil exists? You can't, because evil only shows up as a perception of ones acts.
Then, God created robots and did not give anyone a choice to be an individual.
You just said God created us so we would not turn away, that would be an overwhelming desire for devotion.
It is not your business to tell people that without them specifically asking you to tell them. That is disrespectful and will surely result in conflict, which is what we observe.
You are not responsible for me or anyone else other than yourself.
It's a simple answer. It is disrespectful and causes conflict and wars.
If there was a God, we would all know it. Not just you and the jihadist. All of us.
Whether I have or not doesn't preclude the fact that religions are the only group from your examples which state one is evil and will roast for an eternity if not a member.
But, you just said above that “there are lots of very nice, compassionate people in the world."
Then, you will do nothing but accomplish conflict, violence and wars, and you have given no valid reasons to evangelize, quite the contrary, in fact.
It’s is important for the religious person to acknowledge that a lot of people have had horrible childhoods and bad experiences with religious people and cannot believe in a God or have any faith in religious people. I don’t fault anyone for saying they don't believe in God and I just wish they wouldn’t fault believers for whatever religion did to make them so butt hurt.
What about the fact that all religions have been investigated,and found to be fraudulent? Why do you, conveniently, assume that it was a bad childhood experience that caused the non-believers to reject such brazen childish foolishness? Do you suppose it could be that the non-believer is actually COURAGEOUS enough...and HONEST enough to say "the emperor is NAKED!?"
Believers should take a long look in the mirror. There, they will see the problem.Why would you assume that all believers believed in their childhood or was told to believe by someone? I don’t assume anything here. I was referring to you as the child seeing as how you have stated that religion is “stuffed down the throat” of children.
I won;t argue that it doesn’t happen or that it wouldn’t have negative affects. What I am saying is that not all children of believers have it shoved down their throat. They merely come to like the lifestyle and choose to continue in it. I’m also saying that not all children who are believers have parents that are believers just like some believers have children who do not believe. And sometimes, people who have entire families that do not believe end up believing later in life.
You’re level of misunderstanding of the believer and how it happens is astounding. I mean no insult, but if one were to rely on your assessments, all believers have it stuff down their throat as children by their parents. It just is not the case.
Yes. I do believe that some cannot fathom something other than what they can see or read from academics who do not believe, but many fail to open their mind and read academics who do believe. Both sides are rational and well thought out, one just has to weigh both and make a decision. A nonbeliever can also discover suddenly that they do believe and it happens often.
Truly, open your mind and discover both sides and then weigh it and then choose. Slanting all opinion toward one thing or the other reduces your chances of being an opened minded scientist. It is better to weigh all things upon discovery.
Read about believers and their stories as I read about atheists and their stories. I choose to believe because I think it highly scientific to leave room for things undiscovered because I know men have limitations. Even the most educated men. I refuse to believe nothing + nothing = something which is what nonbelievers believe. No matter how far we go back, you always come to a I don’t know. My I don’t know is a supreme being who is outside what we can weigh and measure.Perhaps it is you who is not aware of what it is I am trying to convey. When did I ever say anything about PARENTS shoving religion down children's throats? Could you show me that? Thanks.
I'm pretty sure this forum thread is about SCHOOL PRAYER...and not parents.
Academics can be just as delusional as the rest of us. Do you even understand what freethinking is? Free thought does not rely on academics. Free thought relies on the thinker, himself, having the confidence to rely on his own intellect to discern facts from deception...INDIVIDUALLY.
Let's see...weighing facts against myths. Really! And, of course, you think it makes just as much sense to choose either...Right?!
I am open minded...and with my opened mind, I have concluded that ANY belief based upon FAITH, alone, is abject nonsense. Those who believe things solely on faith are not being open minded. In fact, they have abdicated their minds altogether.
Belief in nonsense is not scientific. You have merely convinced yourself that your delusional beliefs are somehow logical and forward instead of backward, primitive nonsense.
Well, why can't you just stick with "I DON'T KNOW"
You can't have it both ways.
Resorting to whimsical conjecture to explain that which we don't know is completely absurd.
- ahorsebackposted 12 years ago0
Well of course there THEY go again "stuffing it down my throat!" Only intellectuals of the highest order can figure that one out . How believing in a god can and will ruin the world and being an atheist or whatever you want to call yourself is going to save us all ! Jees! ,if Hitler and Stalin had only listened to you guys ! If only !
Aww - Hitler was doing God's work. Burnt any witches recently?
I'm curious to know when Mike Hucklebee last went out into a school and personally visited some troubled students HIMSELF? When did Mike Hucklebee get involved with a program that helps mentally ill and or troubled teen students? Where was Mike Hucklebee with GOD's take on things when the NRA came out and said what we need are MORE GUNS in school? In fact, when was the last time Mike Hucklebee has even SEEN a public school? It's tough to be God's appointed spokesperson for America when you don't go out and experience what is really happening for yourself!
- ahorsebackposted 12 years ago0
I love studying human nature and the sub conscious minds of liberal eletists , I believe the guilt trips of the spiritually barren play a huge part in their almost constantly God thumping . Blah blahh blah why ? I hate blah blah blah , stuffing down my blah blah throats ! Please . at least make your questions and statements about us believers interesting . And some new faces would help too !
Removing the Christian God and the Bible from schools wouldn’t have this effect. It would be like the lack of moral upbringing (Watching violence on t.v. and movies at a young age. Playing violent games.) and proper access to psychological treatment, led to this tragedy.
I believe in the value that biblical learning has in moral development, but common morality can be taught in schools without the Bible.Judging from God's own actions, it would seem that instead of preventing school shootings, he would actually approved of school shootings. They pale in comparison to His murderous rampages against the most vulnerable of our citizens...defenseless, innocent children........ Here is the proof in his own words:
(Exodus 12:29-30 NLT) And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died.
(Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children.
(Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted.Oh, I love people who quote the Bible to show how rotten it is!
Let's see, OT, OT, OT. Hmm, funny how people who are trying to show Christians how crummy their God so rarely quote Jesus.
Read the NT lately?Aren't both these guys supposed to be same, at least of the same mind?
Ah, a very good question!
Yes, but it's not quite that simple. The OT was written with rules specifically for the Israelites when they inhabited Israel the first time. Back when they were an actual sovereign kingdom. Jesus was talking to Jews, yes, but Israel was not a sovereign nation at that time, it was a vassal state of Rome. And Jesus was pointing out that it is a person's relationship with God, not their position as part of the Israeli covenant, that brought them into or kept them out of the Kingdom of Heaven. This is why Jesus so often preached love, and turning the other cheek, and lending without expecting to be repaid. And why people who are so keen to "prove" that Christianity is bogus so seldom actually quote Jesus. Basically failing to understand history, they think that they've found proof but they seem to rarely think through that if you want to prove to a Christian that Christianity is wrong, you need to start with Christ, not OT Israel.It would be important to point out that a Jew is not all encompassing of Israel. Most do no even know that and refer to the ones in Egypt as Jews. Judah was one of the original 12 and is the namesake for the tribe of people that came from him. Jesus Christ was one of them.
Israel was Jacob, the father of 12 sons and the namesake of the country and entire group of tribes.
Christianity itself is as diverse as the entire scope of world religions. Some Christians believe that the Lord who spoke with Moses is the same entity of Jesus Christ before the swooping down into man form. Some believe there are three different entities . Some two. Some one.
Some define the words in the Bible as something entirely different than another Christian would. Entire religions are made by interpretations of certain passages. For example, those that believe the Apostles spoke in tongues is to be defined as speaking gibberish that only God and they comprehend is what the religion is all about. Others find this sacrilegious.
It is really hard to find agreement on anything with Christianity by Christians.
He says that He is the same in the beginning as He is in the end, meaning that they would be of one mind. It also says, He came as a Lamb the first time, and will return as a Lion. So, He can be both the smiter and the hand of peace. There really isn’t any contradiction there.
A person can be understanding and then not be understanding and still be right. Let’s say a guy bum rushes your wife and steals her purse, but yo both look on and forgive him because he looked like he needed the cash inside. But then one day, a guy bum rushes your wife and steals her purse and you’ve had enough and run after him and tackle him and beat the crap out of him and then call the police. Are you wrong either time?
I’d say, no. You had the right. He offended you. One time you forgave the second time you didn’t.That would only serve to show how utterly useless Christianity is to the world and that it only causes conflict.
I’m sorry, but that’s makes no sense. You seem to have a grievance with Christianity rather than religion. Most religions teach compassion for your fellow man, Christianity especially teaches that we should “turn the other cheek”. It also notes that men are capable of evil things but should always seek to do good things.
Look at China and Russia. They have plenty of conflict and tend to abstain from religion en masse while Middle Eastern countries favor a religious stye politics and have plenty of conflict but a lot of unity between them. The only exception is Israel and it is because they differ in religion. I believe what you have a problem with is varying choices in beliefs and culture. One united world under one dictator and his belief system would be the ideal world for you. America is not about that.
Christianity teaches acceptance but a lot of its followers don’t obey that. Perhaps it is the butthead Christian that has you hating all religion. IDK but the teachings are completely different than your perception of them.Funny how you glean such conclusions where none exist.
Men are capable of great many things, so what? We don't need Christianity to tell us that.
Again, I have no idea where you manage to come up with those ridiculous conclusions.
No, it doesn't. It teaches intolerance to others who are not of the faith.
I can only assume you're either not reading peoples posts or are unable to comprehend them because you keep coming up with strange conclusions that aren't indicated anywhere. Perhaps, English is not your first language and you're struggling with it?
Very good, Getitrite! Very glad you are actually using Scripture to back up your point. Oftentimes, too many people (including my Christian brothers and sisters) argue a point and say "it says in the Bible ...." Then when one looks to try to find what they are arguing and can't find it, "oh, well my pastor told me that," or "well it doesn't exactly say that, it's inferred in there!"
So, I consider myself to be an Evangelical Christian, and I get a sense that you are not. I get the sense based on your replies that you are Atheist (freethinker)? Am I right? Or am I completely wrong?
Anyhow, I get that we are not going to agree, but I am fine with that, because that is no reason for me to be "threatened" in my conviction of what I believe. Having said that, I want to ask you something. I couldn't help but notice that your Biblical quotations were all from the Old Testament. Have you had a chance to read any New Testament material?Of course I am familiar with the New Testament. I'm a former Christian, born into a family of devoutly religious parents. I went to Sunday School week after week after week. I've been exposed to most of the bible, but it was not until I became a free thinker that I really read the BAD parts. I also understand that the bible is a fake, forged by plagiarizing older civilizations...a process that...after untold translations, by who knows who, eventually produced the versions of the bible we have now.
I don't see the New Testament being any better than the Old, since Jesus, himself, said in Matthew 5:17.......
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them"Why does it matter which section of the bible the passages came from? Are you dismissing the OT? It seems to me that your Jesus referenced the OT often in the NT, that makes it hard to dismiss and it should make it hard to justify as well. How do you do that and call him a loving and forgiving God?
Very well said JRScarborough. I couldn't agree with you more. Huckabee, and too many other politicians, are assuming a single belief by all Americans in GOD. They are assuming that introduction of Biblical studies and organized prayer in public schools is the answer to the increasing intensity of violence.
The problem with this assumption is that belief in a GOD, or GOD means so many different things to so many different people. Belief in GOD is not automatically compulsory, and certainly neither is Christianity. If it were, there would be no need for any doctrine, dogma, or discussions about what is and isn't GOD. We would all simply fall into the same belief of the same god. We would all have the same understanding of this same god, and would worship and pray to this god all in the same manner. We would all do this automatically from the day we gain awareness, without ever needing to question why. Sounds more like Iran to me than America!!The first major mass public shooting in America by a disturbed gunman? 1966 in Austin, TX. An ex-Marine went to the top of the University of Texas Tower and began shooting passersby. When police found a note at his home he had written before his rampage, he expressed remorse (as he had already killed both his wife and mother earlier), said that he couldn't understand why he was getting so angry for what seemed no reason, and said that when he died he wanted any life insurance money to go to researching...... guess what? ... MENTAL ILLNESS!!
So here we are almost 50 years later, and "leaders" like Mike Huckabee STILL don't get it.
I guess we can blame "turning away from GOD" on, well, a whole assortment of issues. The increase in U.S. highway traffic accidents since the 50's, the increasing wealth and income disparity gap, inflation, the increase in child obesity.. just pick any issue out of thin air, it fits!!
So when our "leaders" come out on national T.V. to tell us how "turning away from GOD" is the reason these things are happening and not because our "leaders" have failed to address the reality of the underlying issues in a more direct way, I strongly encourage us all to call them out on it!Yeah, I hear you Getitrite. We have so many churches and Sunday Schools preaching this message of a jealous GOD who is vengeful and merciless. It seems to be the focus. Plus, the earliest recorded Gospels have been translated so out of context by so many different "authorities" on Scriptures. This is usually where I get into trouble with those who consider themselves devout.
It is interesting that you bring up Matthew 5:17. The word "fulfill" brings much debate. If you look at the Old Testament, the most important Commandment over any of the others was to love thy neighbor. If you look at the Teachings of Christ in the New Testament, the most important rule? Love thy neighbor.. But he goes further he says you must love your enemies, too. You must pray for them to be blessed, in fact!
To me, Christ was saying that HE was going to complete the Old Testament, so there is no need to follow the dogmas of the Old Laws anymore. Therefore, there is no need to judge people by the Old Laws, as he clarified the most important Law: Treat Everyone with love and kindness no matter what. If you live by this, you automatically follow the Old Laws and Commandments. So what HE said was absolutely true, but many Christians missed the point that his command to love even those whose beliefs differ from theirs is MORE important than judging them for their sins! This is the fulfillment.
What is your take on the Sermon on the Mount?Just another reason why conflict is inherent in such beliefs.
Diverting attention from the potentially damning parts of Jesus' message, does not assuage the dissonance. Hitler also said some really GOOD things.
ful·fill
/fo͝olˈfil/ (Verb)~Bring to completion or reality; achieve or realize (something desired, promised, or predicted).
So it would seem, to me, that Jesus was insisting and proudly promoting that homosexuals, adulterers, bratty children, and people who work on the Sabbath should be put to death...as that was the desire of the God in the Old Testament.
No it is not fulfillment! That's merely a smokescreen, diverting attention from the REAL FACTS.
If God is Jesus' Father, and they are one and the same, how is it now that you want to completely distant Jesus from his bloodthirsty, psychopathic father. In order for Jesus to fulfill his obligation to his father, he would have to kill gay people, adulterers, nonbelievers, girls who are not virgins on their wedding day, witches(sorcerers) fornicators, and many others.
First of all, the beatitudes are meaningless assertions, backed by nothing but a "feel good" delusion.
Jesus also contradicts himself saying things like "let your light shine before men" then later saying "Take heed that you do not your alms before men"
Jesus also suggests that we cut our hands off, and pluck our eyes out. That's dangerously psychotic, and completely devoid of common sense.
In conclusion, instead of encouraging people to believe in themselves, he tells them that the most important thing in life is is to believe in HIM, and his outlandish claim that he is the son of a God of which he has no evidence. The rantings of a delusional narcissist.In answer to:
ful·fill
/fo͝olˈfil/ (Verb)~Bring to completion or reality; achieve or realize (something desired, promised, or predicted).
"So it would seem, to me, that Jesus was insisting and proudly promoting that homosexuals, adulterers, bratty children, and people who work on the Sabbath should be put to death...as that was the desire of the God in the Old Testament.
No it is not fulfillment! That's merely a smokescreen, diverting attention from the REAL FACTS."
But how could it be that Jesus would be promoting all this judgement and death, when he saved the prostitute from being stoned to death ("Let he who is without sin be the first to cast a stone")? When he was blasted by the Pharisees for not following Mosaic Law? When his own disciples grumbled about him spending so much time hanging around with and eating with tax-collectors, drunks, and others who were seen as sinners and "evil" people of that time? People he should have been judging! When he gave his very life for these beliefs? Is that wanting to murder his Father's enemies out of revenge?
This was the ultimate message from HIM. The need to judge sinners and punish them based upon the Old Laws are no longer needed because if you follow the Teachings of the Beatitudes, you are going above and beyond what the Commandments or the Law of the Prophets dictated. This was one reason (out of many) the Jewish leaders wanted him crucified. The reason he had to tell the ancient Jews to follow HIM, was not because he was jealous or narcissist, he had to keep them from believing in .... guess what?
Killing homosexuals, adulterers, non-believers, girls who are not virgins on their wedding day, those who work on the Sabbath day, etc., in the name of the Lord. This is the TRUE fulfillment of His Life and death here on Earth, as well as the NT completing the OT. THIS was the message that I feel has been lost by those who feel the "rules and laws" about lifestyle or orientation are more important than genuinely having a loving care for even those who hate you.
It took years of freely looking within myself without any brainwashing or pre-programming (free-thinking) to finally arrive at these beliefs about human existence. That is a REAL FACT, my parents were never religious, I never attended any church growing up, I studied Atheism and free thinking early in my life, and thinking freely for myself is EXACTLY what finally led me to Christ after studying and practicing many different philosophies and beliefs.
So what happens if say, one day, scientists are actually able to factually prove that there is indeed a GOD? Then what?I guess you better prey that it is the one you chose huh? Infinity:1 against are not great odds.
It would take a gigantic leap of faith to believe any of what you have just interpreted from the Sermon on the Mount. Furthermore, I can't understand why you believe that what Jesus said was SO great. Any first grader should be able to perceive of such concepts, as most of these concepts are innate to the human species. I think it is in most of us to be humane. And some people are even more inclined toward altruism than others. There have been many humans born, over the centuries, who have had as much or more compassion than Jesus. Most decent altruistic people don't go around cursing innocent fig trees. So why is he special...unless one has been brainwashed into giving him special treatment.
What happens after that depends on what the definition of this God is. I would like to have concrete evidence of a god that came straight from God himself. For instance, if the Christian God exists, then He should be able to do that. Since He seems woefully inadequate to do anything at all, I'm just going to assume He is no more real than Rumpelstiltskin.
By the way Getitrite, I'm not trying to stir anything up, I just love to exercise my spiritual brain muscle so to speak, every once in a while. I used to be a fierce Atheist and opponent of Christians and to the idea of a GOD. But after I dabbled in the practices and beliefs of almost everything there is to believe for many years, I came to where I am today. My replies are simply to look at things from your viewpoint as I find it fascinating to question and be questioned by someone who had the reverse journey that I did! Don't worry I'm not gonna try to "bring you back" as your beliefs are not mine to judge.
Hi Mark, not sure if you were addressing me or not, but if so, I was a previous Sun worshipper and spent years studying Pagan beliefs, Zoroastrianism, and the 12 signs of the Zodiac. I know full well how the early church needed to "inject" Christmas, Sun and Moon worship, and other Pagan beliefs into Christianity in order to get "buy in" from the masses. This continued throughout history: one example is the "Patron Saints" of the Roman Catholic Church replacing the many Gods that the Indians in Mexico were worshiping prior to Cortez. This continues to this day.
In fact, (if you are addressing me) I'm very glad you bring up my evangelical spirit. Evangelicals have gotten a bad rap because they have become known for running their mouths to everyone else about what's best for them, while hypocritically living the opposite. I consider myself an evangelical of an entirely different breed. My evangelical disposition is best described as this: my everyday actions are my witness, not what I say. I feel my mission is not to convert non-believers or free thinkers, my mission is to lead those who also believe back to the Good News that we have gotten so away from.
So I only mention being an Evangelical here on Hubpages to give readers a context on where I coming from, not to say anyone is "wrong" or "right" nor to be "right" myself. And besides, how could I be more interested in being an evangelical, and not learning, when I am publicly denouncing Mike Huckabee's response? Shouldn't I be defending him and my religion?
If this wasn't in response to my post, then my apologies. If so, then I look forward to your take and position on this response!!Sorry, but your evangelism is no different from those you say have gotten a bad rap. They, like yourself, believe you know what is right for others and will tell them so. That is highly disrespectful of others and will only lead to conflict.
Yet you constantly tell us what is right for others and how wrong we are for not following what you believe. Namely, that we are wrong for not following what you believe, that we should shut up.
Interesting.If I knew it was false, I wouldn't have said it.
I'm never quite sure if this is intentional or not, but you and Mark both constantly accuse me of lying. I don't make statements I know to be untrue. If you can show me the actual difference between religious proselytizers telling people that there is a right way to live and anti-religionists telling people there is a right way to live, and I mean in form instead of substance, I'm definitely up for the philosophy. But philosophically speaking, I haven't seen the difference, nor have I seen anything like a convincing argument to that effect.Then, I'm sure you can provide plenty of citations of where I am telling people what to do and what to believe. If not, then I'm also sure you'll be retracting that accusation.
Not really, it is not you who is really lying, but instead you are propagating the lies of a religion.
You make statements that you believe are true based on what your religion has taught you. Those statements can be and have been shown to be false.
I don't know of any anti-religionists here who tell people the right way to live in the same way an evangelist is telling us what to believe and how to live. The vast majority of us simply present reality in light of religious beliefs.I think you haven't encounted many evangelists. I could be wrong, but my feeling is that most of the anti-religionists in these forums have some vision that everyone out there telling people that Jesus does, indeed, love them is in reality some kind of stereotypical, cartoon Puritan preaching fire and brimstone and just itching to bind and flog the fornicators. Most of us are not anything like that. If we were having a discussion about whether Jesus loves you or not, face to face and with a genuine interest in whether this is actually true or not, I would handle things differently than I do in the forums. Here, my aim is to explain and defend a particular philosophy, knowing full well that the overwhelming majority of the people I "talk" to don't agree or believe or even look kindly upon what I say.
The vast majority of the people who are actually out in the world, whether it's going to an African or South American rural village or going to the local mall to talk to people, aren't as aggressive as some feel us to be. Yeah, some are persistent, but real aggression is the rare exception. And yes, there are certainly judgmental Christians, as I have acknowledged over and over again, but most of us are all too aware of our own shortcomings and what a real relationship with God means to be like that. I can say you're wrong without simultaneously saying that you're some horrible sinner, as if I weren't.
I do know that God exists. I can't "prove" it to you any more than anyone was able to prove it to me before I became a Christian. It's one of the paradoxes of the faith, because I know that what most skeptics want is a "burning bush" even though most of them wouldn't believe it if one got up and sang the Hallelujah Chorus. But I have stated why I believe in God's existence multiple times.That is because we already that philosophy has failed miserably and does little more than cause conflict in the world today as it has in the past. It is you who has not come to that realization yet.
And, you have the freedom to believe that, just keep it behind closed doors where it belongs.I will if you will. And I mean that literally, if you never, ever again tell anybody that religion is a failed philosophy that has caused more conflicts than any other, I will stop telling people that they will, in fact, live forever and the only way to avoid an eternity in misery is to accept Jesus.
Cause I know you won't, and I have as much right to state my view as you do.
And it's not a failed philosophy.Sorry, but I would never have to say anything in the first place, hence it is YOU who must take that first step, stop evangelizing and keep your beliefs behind closed doors. You will hear silence from then on in.
I always find it fascinating when someone brings up God being murderous in the OT. Here is what God likened Himself to humanity as:
"Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will let you hear my words. So I went down to the potter's house, and there he was working at his wheel. And the vessel he was making of clay was spoiled in the potter's hand, and he reworked it into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to do.”
If everything about God is true, and He created us, He can’t murder us. He can do whatever He deems right because He is God. Jesus Christ and the Lord are in fact the same entity. One is OT and one is NT.
"Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:”
It’s important to remember who the first born were and know that this Lord knows the future, the past and the now. Then, know that we are just the marred vessels that God can’t put to better use at any time He sees fit.
God or the lack of God didn’t have anything to do with what happened. It is human nature to suffer from mental defects and plenty of the religious men and women of our country have mental illness. Trying to discover what caused this tragedy is like trying to prove there is a God.
What if this guy’s mother had him in handcuffs and tied to a bed from age 0 to 5, would we know it? What if she liked soap operas and let Call of Duty babysit him during her time, will we ever know?
Knowing the truth of things is very much impossible. Nobody is going to report on the news that the murdered mother was a horrible mom or that his dad always screamed at him as an infant. If it is a secret, it will remain a secret.
Nobody can deny that morality has taken a dive in modern times. We get a new kill score every so often and it is getting really hard to be surprised at anything. I think the media plays a part in these tragedies by sensationalizing it and being the score keeper.
I grew up when schools allowed prayer and teachers talked about the Bible. Let e tell you, with God in the school, it still was a pretty rough place to have to go. I can’t imagine it getting better because someone’s particular taste in religion gets to brainwash our kids to their point of view.
I believe in God but I don’t believe the public has the right to judge my belief or instill their opinions in my children, so, secular schools are better than ones that dictate a system of beliefs. If I want my child getting religion from school, I can send them to any number of private institutions.That's quite the contradiction to your being an evangelist, attempting to instill your beliefs and opinions on others. If we want religion, we'll attend the institutions ourselves.
Funny how you denounce others for the very same thing you are doing.
- ahorsebackposted 12 years ago0
Believer or not in the spiritual world , you gotta know if theres a god ! [and there i!] He's sitting there looking down on some of the somewhat less than brilliant dialog going on here , and just plain shaking his head in shame at the ignorance of man !
Well, I don't believe in the spiritual world, God is part of the spiritual world therefore I don't believe in God. Please don't tell me what I gotta know and I'll refrain from telling you what I do know.
Why are some Christians so angry at people who support the concept of REALITY? What a shame they need everyone to abandon reason, and say "yes Virginia....."
You either believe in God or you don’t. I think most of the religious masses are trying to convince others. I believe but I don’t need you to in order to confirm my own convictions. There are so many different sects inside the banner “Christian” that it is hard to judge them all to be the same. Some are a bit more Hellfire and Brimstone than others.
I think that some have so many doubts they take up the cause of convincing others. So many are ill-prepared to do that and yet do that. It makes it hard on those of us who believe and would try to be understanding of the ones who don’t want any part of it. Scripture is written in several different texts that are hard to grasp in American English, let alone the King James that most followers use. When they start citing scripture without even the faintest understanding of the book as an entire unit, they begin to just quote as it seems to fit or serves the moment. This tends to cause a lot of atheists and agnostics to rise.
Being a believer, I actually see more wrong from this side than the other. People using the Bible as a weapon to serve a particular moment’s cause is more harmful than helpful. Especially when non-believers are willing to read the text and find the loophole that defeats the believer’s arguments.
If someone is going to be an atheist and argue it, they should probably actually read the book. All the power to defeat ignorance is right there at everyone’s disposal. I guarantee you that you can quote one thing and I could find a retort that silences that point. It gets rather interesting when two people come together who differ on views but then also are read.Or, you believe in one of the many other gods purported to exist.
But, as an evangelist, that's exactly what you do.
- ahorsebackposted 12 years ago0
Winers , oh and don't forget ......"someones stuffing it down your throat " Phhhhhhhhew! Juveniles !
Open your eyes. Religion has been mortally wounded by the advances of science and the education of a once ignorant society. It no longer has the power to persuade or force its dogma down the throats of others. Now they want isolation. They want their beliefs isolated from ridicule. That's not going to happen. These silly beliefs should be ridiculed and laughed at, because they are silly...and no one is obligated to respect them. Religion has gone from the offensive to the defensive, and has been mortally wounded. It is only a matter of time before it will be marginalized to the mentally disturbed, as science demolishes one hallowed belief after another.
But your not telling us how you really feel! You should learn not to beat around the bush a little.
You should be ashamed posting that link of lies.
Wikipedia:
"Galileo's championing of heliocentrism was controversial within his lifetime, when most subscribed to either geocentrism or the Tychonic system. He met with opposition from astronomers, who doubted heliocentrism due to the absence of an observed stellar parallax. The matter was investigated by the Roman Inquisition in 1615, and they concluded that it could be supported as only a possibility, not an established fact. Galileo later defended his views in Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, which appeared to attack Pope Urban VIII and thus alienated him and the Jesuits, who had both supported Galileo up until this point. He was tried by the Inquisition, found "vehemently suspect of heresy", forced to recant, and spent the rest of his life under house arrest. It was while Galileo was under house arrest that he wrote one of his finest works, Two New Sciences, in which he summarised the work he had done some forty years earlier, on the two sciences now called kinematics and strength of materials.You say "link of lies" and then quote "wiki:...
clearly http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic … faith.html has a motive while wiki does not.
"Einstein is probably the best known and most highly revered scientist of the twentieth century, and is associated with major revolutions in our thinking about time, gravity, and the conversion of matter to energy (E=mc2). Although never coming to belief in a personal God, he recognized the impossibility of a non-created universe. The Encyclopedia Britannica says of him: "Firmly denying atheism, Einstein expressed a belief in "Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of what exists." This actually motivated his interest in science, as he once remarked to a young physicist: "I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details." Einstein's famous epithet on the "uncertainty principle" was "God does not play dice" - and to him this was a real statement about a God in whom he believed. A famous saying of his was "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
Wiki can also be added too,etc and is known as an unreliable source.You, for some reason moved the goal posts and changed the conversation. Remember we were talking about how Galileo was treated by Christianity? Remember Galileo was right but treated by with contempt by a society controlled by Christianity because he dared to say the earth was not the centre of the universe. That's why much of the west has secular societies. We can talk about what a jewish Einstein thought about a God if you like, but I can assure you, I can find evidence he didn't believe in any God at all let along the Christian God.
I had no intent to move the goal post, you spoke of Galileo, the site I offered speaks of many, including Galileo and Einstien...I merely felt the need to show that not all scientist are or were unbelievers, or aetheist, etc., but that many DO believe in God, or a God...If you choose to not believe in God that is your perogative, I choose to believe and that is mine. No harm, no foul...Sweeping statements that"scientist are disproving God" irritate me, and so I am compelled to post.
That's what happens when one becomes emotionally attached to some imaginary skydaddy. They start arguing from emotions instead of reason. I never mentioned anything about SCIENTIST, I mentioned SCIENCE...there is a difference. Who cares if you can produce a list of scientist(mostly through wishful thinking)that believed in childish nonsense.
Speaking from emotions again, I see. Show me the "sweeping statements"
Go ahead. Show me.Great Idea, next time post a site that isn't intended to persuade and lie about people in order to make believers feel they are not alone in their irrational beliefs.
Einstein is probably not the greatest supporter of conventional religions. Though, he did realize that science wasn’t everything and only enjoyed the structure it provided for explanation as far as it could explain. He realized that there must be things that science cannot explain, nor would science ever be able to. This gives rise to the idea that Einstein believed in something more than science. That man is limited and falls into the rules of the universe, but there must be something outside the physical universe in order that the universe exists.
I believe Einstein believed in a slew of gods ruling over this and that. He wasn’t conventional for his day and age.
Sorry, your argument is completely irrelevant. It is also false. Good try!
Einstein was quite vocal about not belonging to the atheist cult.
"I was barked at by numerous dogs who are earning their food guarding ignorance and superstition for the benefit of those who profit from it.(religion) Then there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is of the same kind as the intolerance of the religious fanatics and comes from the same source. They are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against the traditional "opium of the people"—cannot bear the music of the spheres. The Wonder of nature does not become smaller because one cannot measure it by the standards of human moral and human aims.”
Einstein believed that human beings were limited and that there is something more that we cannot know. What it was he was agnostic with.
“My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment.”
He just didn’t believe in conventional “god” that was known to him as intolerant and very unforgiving.
“I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings.”
You’ll need something better than “that’s irrelevant and false”. That doesn’t add anything or detract away from anything. Einstein said everything for himself and I merely repeated here what that was.
“In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views.”
If Einstein believed his own mind limited, then what would you say he thinks of everyone else’s?
The point is that the brightest mind of recent history did not conform to atheism because it makes no sense and is a cult religion with the same limitations as popular God religions. To not conform to The Church does not say that Einstein did not believe in something other than science.
"The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even naive. However, I am also not a "Freethinker" in the usual sense of the word because I find that this is in the main an attitude nourished exclusively by an opposition against naive superstition. My feeling is insofar religious as I am imbued with the consciousness of the insuffiency of the human mind to understand deeply the harmony of the Universe which we try to formulate as "laws of nature." It is this consciousness and humility I miss in the Freethinker mentality. Sincerely yours, Albert Einstein."First of all, I was not talking about scientist, but rather SCIENCE. These words are not synonymous.
Secondly, who cares if Einstein only stated that he did not believe in a "personal god"
I don't think you quite understand what Einsteins means by God. You believe simply because you want to believe. Einstein was stating the possibilities. And by the laws of logic, no one can logically state that there, absolutely, is no god. But it seems that mere inference will do when people are desperate.
And Galileo was forced to recant his findings, due to the oppressive religious tyranny of the time. But belief under duress will do when people are desperate.
BTW, I am a nonbeliever. I became that way on my own. I'm not part any atheist cult. But you are welcome to your distorted view of people who merely disagree with your belief in fairy tales.I’m not in disagreement that Einstein’s “god” was not the contemporary “god” of Christians. To be Spinoza’s god, it would be a collective connection. Something along the lines of the hippy acid dropping consciousness of “we all are one with everything".
If you are a non-believer, meaning that you deny the possibility of something beyond science and self, then you are an atheist. If you are leaving open the possibilities that there may be a god, then you may be agnostic.
Einstein did not say anything “only” and seemed to waiver back and forth. He didn’t want to be classified as religious or atheistic. He was agnostic. That is certain.
Yes, religions have persecuted men since the beginning of time. What does that have to do with believers now? There were believers then that didn’t want Galileo to be intimidated and the same kind of person exists today.
You seem to be placing every person who believes into the same category as 17th century Vatican Inquisitors. Not every person who believes in God wishes to put a thumb screw on you for not believing. Not everyone who believes is responsible for Galileo’s recantations or for limiting scientific progress.
I’m not sure why you felt it necessary to inform me on the difference in science and scientist. I would hope that everyone absorbed that difference in grammar school. Sadly, it does seem that the vast majority of scientists believe that their opinions and pinheaded theories define science. You might need to explain that one in a mass podcast directed toward every university science department across the world. There are physicists for every stance in this subject. There have been proofs and debunking since science was science. Just because someone says something or writes something, does not make it fact.
I don’t have a distorted view of anyone. You seem to be angry when met with a worthy challenge. I am just here to debunk the ones who seem to think highly of their own beliefs and begin bashing like those that lack a valid education seem to do.May I reply?
Religion begins and is sustained by irrational beliefs, and the followers never question these beliefs nor want anybody to question that. When people do not question the people who purport this beliefs and merely accepts the 'priests', gradually they will accept anything handed over to them by the said 'authorities' and do atrocities. If the perpetrators of 9/11 or the mobs of middle ages ever stopped to think why they did what they did, these atrocities would never have happened.
The same kind of persons(who didn't want Galileo to be intimidated) exist today and they are more in number and that is the only reason why we can question anybody's beliefs. But if you go to Pakistan or middle east and ask questions about what they believe, you could be arrested and even hanged for heresy, that is they are still in middle ages. Even India which is a 'democracy,' they are incarcerating people because they commented on other people's belief. And these backward beliefs are gaining more followers and even Europe is going back, gradually, but still going back to the dark ages.
When the majority are still not educated and cannot accept other people because they believe differently(and yet advocate "love and peace"), all religions(ideologies as well) need to be opposed.I can’t argue that there isn’t some religious people that do negative things. Of course there are. The point of view that we should oppose all religions because some of the subscribers do bad things is bigoted. I mean, would it be fair to run all black people out of their homes because some black people mugged someone?
I think there is popular bigotry brewing. People who have it are no better than racists or sexists.
I’m not even a part of any religious body. I don’t believe that I need a man or a building to save me from anything. BUT I would never aim to stop someone else, or make that person feel less than intelligent because they are a part of that.
You are right and wrong. There are some evil people who believe in a god. BUT there are many more who believe for the right reasons. To group them all into one category of “stupid believers” and want to bash them or get rid of them is just plain bigoted.Religions have created more mentally challenged people than most others combined with their hell and sin. People can believe in god, but that god should be personal. They should keep it to themselves and should be equally willing to accommodate others who have a difference of opinion.
But religious people cannot do that because they have to explain themselves and on failing to find a rational reason they look for social validity.Actually, if you believe in God you have to tell other people. But yes, you should be able to accept that not everyone will believe as you do, just as anti-religious people should also be able to accept that.
To claim that religion has created more mental illness (which is what I assume you meant) than anything else is a classic case of an unprovable statement. Those who believe it think it self-evident, those who don't, don't. But it's not like there are studies and meta-studies on the long-term effect of different kinds of religious exposure over centuries.No I didn't mean mental illness, I only meant deviations as in neurosis like obsession. And that exactly is not my words, it is the words of Scott Peck who is believer as well as a psychiatrist and the renowned author of the road less travelled.
If you want to tell other people about your god you should be equally willing to accept a rational discussion to an outright 'that is idiotic', because nobody is asking for your opinion about god. If you are, then they should do it privately and not publically or else be willing to accept criticism.
How is it bigoted exactly? Religious people choose to believe nonsense in place of actual facts and real knowledge. I think this is a bad thing and history backs me up on this.
Nothing to do with evil. Anyone who believes the sort of things religious people believe is not being reasonable or rational - and this invariably causes conflicts. Asking that you stop behaving in this fashion is not unreasonable is it?1- You’re assuming that because someone believes in a higher power that they fall into a predetermined category that they may or may not fall into. Making a judgement that determines the person to be something that you define, solely based upon their belief system, is bigoted.
2- What actual facts and real knowledge are you talking about? Evolution? It is a theory that has yet to be proven except for the academics who don’t require any real proof except their assumptions. You don’t have the link and have to walk the bridge of fairy tales in order to get one. Does that make you smarter or just as dumb as you proclaim those that walk the same bridge that you do are? Maybe you believe is the primordial goo theory? That is a leap there. Everything science has to answer the questions about the origins of life is a leap. That leap is actually greater than the leap of intelligent design.
3- What do religious people believe? Again, you’re categorizing. Are black people bad because there are more of them in prison? There’s your facts, how to you process them?
4- By definition, you would be a prejudiced bigot if you assumed that all believers should stop behaving in some fashion that you have pre-determined they are behaving in and actively voiced this assumption. Have you met everyone?Sorry you don't understand. It must be very frustrating for you that there are actual facts and real knowledge available to you. You denying proven science does not change that fact. How dishonest of you to suggest that there is not a dominant few religions, and they don't all believe much the same thing. Lets just talk about the main three - OK? Judaism, Islam and Christianity. That should cover most of you. LOve the misdirection of a "higher power" instead of "god."
This is why your religion and beliefs cause so many conflicts. As all religions have done throughout history. Or is history "just a theory," also? Bigot huh? How does despising senseless conflicts because of irrational religious beliefs make me a bigot exactly?Ho are you concluding I don’t understand something? You seem very argumentative but don;t seem to actually read what you are attempting to argue.
What kind of facts and real knowledge does it seem I’m lacking here? Hawking?
"Since events before the Big Bang have no observational consequences, one may as well cut them out of the theory, and say that time began at the Big Bang. Events before the Big Bang, are simply not defined, because there's no way one could measure what happened at them. “
Leaps. Assumptions. Theory. Where did the matter come from? Hawking would say, it does';t matter, we can’t know, so we must assume and that is science. He would say we can only measure what we can see and know and anything before must have just happened or been the result of another happening. Is this “proven science”, or are we dealing more in using what we can measure to make guesses? Fairy tales are fairy tales regardless of the education level of their inventors. People like Hawking wish to go down as gods and will write the fairy tale as eloquently as they’ve been taught to, but it is still a fairy tale if it is based upon something measured and recorded. I’d like to know how ell read you are, or if you are just reporting what you’ve heard. You don’t seem to have anything but arguments that don't have anything to do with what you’re replying to.
Did I deny there are dominant religions? I think your reading comprehension needs sharpened. Of course there are the big three, but there are a lot of sub-divisions and a plethora of personalities that inhabit those divisions. That was my point. Your use of “them” again points to your prejudiced bigotry. You like your categories of labels and I imagine it runs much deeper than solely religious in nature.
My religion and my beliefs causes conflicts? I had no idea. I was born in the ’70’s, so, I find it rather hard to believe that my beliefs caused any conflict before the ’70’s. I suppose you’d say that someone who simply believes, caused a lot of blood shed. History is certainly not a theory, but there is such a thing as not actually knowing any.
Christianity is not the cause of The Papacy ever shedding blood. You have to comprehend that not every Christian is Catholic. Not every Christian is religious at all. You seem to not know enough about the subject to discuss it. What are you trying to do here? Defeat Christianity and religion? I think you might study theology to get the ammo in order to better posture yourself in this war. One person’s god is not necessarily another’s. There are Orthodox Jews and Messianic jews. There are Baptists and Episcopalian. There are Catholics and Protestants. There are white people and black people. There are good people and bad people. There are so many varieties within ever category you have thrown into the same pot that one couldn’t even begin to sub-categorize them.
I think there is something very wrong with a person who feels the need to end someone else’s philosophies. A person could even call it un-American. Realize, you’re just another Inquisitor with another philosophy that wants to smite the opposing philosophy. I’m not out to rid the world of atheists. To each their own.
Live and let live.You don't appear to understand if you think evolution is in question.
Not every Christian is religious? How very, very funny. Sorry - I didn't understand the thing about black people and white people. I understand you need to lie and misdirect to defend your irrational beliefs, but - please......
I know that you guys cannot agree on anything. This is why there have been so many wars - so you seem to be agreeing that your religion causes conflicts? Pretty sure you all share the same basic irrational belief in majick though - it's just a question of interpreting what the majick book means is it not?
If you want to go 'round burning witches and murdering homosexuals like the bible says - I think it is reasonable that some one attempts to end that "philosophy" - don't you?Jesus DID end that philosophy. You like to quote the Bible, you should know that one.
Really - show me where it says all the old laws are to be abolished and the Ten Commandments no longer apply.
Is that why there are so many Christians in jail? They have no moral compass to follow, because Jesus ended the Old Testament Philosophy?I forgot who I was speaking too...
There's a difference between the "Old Laws" and rules that were specifically for Jews at the time of the OT. That's why Jesus said it was okay to eat seafood. Loving the Lord you God is not abolished. But the sacrifices were abolished in a big, big way when God allowed Jerusalem to be sacked by the Romans in 70 AD.Show me where it says this please. The specifics. Actual words saying this.
There is a big abolish? As opposed to a little abolished?
I didn't forget who I was talking to.No, Mark, I'm sure you didn't...you can't forget what you don't know...
I didn't say that. I just got off work. You'll get your answer.
Jesus did not abolish the Ten Commandments. He said, as I'm sure you know, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Matthew 5:17. What Jesus did do was clarify what the commandments were actually for, because many Jews had come to think that keeping all kinds of commandments made them better people than everyone else, much like many Christians do today, and many other kinds of people for that matter.
Probably the best known instance of this is John Chapter 8, where the adulterous woman was about to be stoned. The Old Testament did, indeed, command that adulterers be stoned, but the Old Testament also commanded the Jews to have compassion on people, just as God does. The Jewish leadership had forgotten this, but Jesus reminded them. So Jesus did not contravene or countermand the order, but He did clarify the reason for it. Reference Deuteronomy 22:22.
During the early 2000's I came up against a lot of people who seemed to feel that shellfish was some kind of "gotcha" moment they could beat us Christians over the head with. In fact, the prohibition on eating shellfish was not one of the Ten Commandments. It was a law given to the Jews, and the usual answer people are given when they ask "why?" is for sanitation reasons. I don't know, Bruce Feiler (a practicing Jew and as far as I know not overly sympathetic to Evangelical Christianity) gave a pretty good analysis of the possible why in his book "Abraham" which I recommend. But the point I'm making here is that in Mark 7:19 Jesus declared all foods "clean."
He most certainly DID uphold the Ten Commandments when He said that the only reason for divorce was adultery. Reference Mark 10:5-9. This, by the way, is also Jesus affirming that marriage is to be between one man and one woman for life.
Jesus did not say that the Commandments don't apply, and I didn't say He did. Sorry if I wasn't clear. What Jesus DID do was clarify what the Commandments actually meant, and what the relationship should be between men and God. It says in the OT several times "Vengeance is mine, says the Lord." We should not take matters into our own hands. But we should still love God.Nice misdirection. Sorry - where does it say that some of the old philosophies are finished with as you originally claimed?
Seafood? Marriage? What has that to do with burning witches. Perhaps you just missed the quote where Jesus says that one does not apply any more. Clarify what they actually meant? "Vengeance is mine says the Lord," but "You shall not permit a female sorcerer to live."
Divorce is not in the Ten Commandments.
Really Chris - your entire reply is meaningless misdirection, and I doubt you have actually read this book, other wise you would have known that a prohibition against divorce is not one of the commandments. Neither is any such stuff about marriage being between one woman and one man.I knew you would say that. Predictability can be a good thing. Or not.
I answered your question. Jesus pointed out that stoning the adulterer should only be done by those with no sin of their own. The Jews were smart enough to understand that everyone has sin.
Everyone is made in God's image. Even witches and homosexuals. It is for God to judge them. And since we are not in ancient Israel, it is not commanded for us to kill them. A key piece of one of the quotes that you apparently missed (and you wouldn't be alone, thousands of Christians have missed this one through the ages as well, so you're in good Christian company ) is that the evil must be exterminated from Israel.
Not the modern day world.
LOL. Evolution is fact, dude. Only those who have never taken the time to understand evolution say such ridiculous things.
On the contrary, although it is a "scientific theory" it is still a theory. I understand the difference, but the boilerplate is that a scientific theory is something scientists believe is true and the evidence will one day be found. Those who accept it as "fact" are, in fact, putting their faith in the science largely because the scientists say so.
Fact.Theories can become fact, especially when the evidence is unequivocal across multiple sciences, which is what evolution accomplishes.
Sorry, but only fools would put their faith in what others say, because they say so.Then there are a lot of fools out there, and not just on my side.
As I've said, I understand what a Scientific Theory is, but the truth remains that it's still a theory. If the irrefutable, once-and-for-all proof were there, it wouldn't be called a theory any more. And most of the people who accept evolution as "fact" are no more versed in the science of it than those who reject it as "fact." I've read articles by people who I can understand (which means they're not the heavy hitter scientists) and they always confidently assert the truth of evolution but they don't address some of the questions that I have. Yet the few that I've questioned, instead of dealing with the questions, simply assert, again, that it's a fact, usually accompanied by an even more stern assertion that failure to accept it as such is simply a sign of my inferior intellect.
If we were discussing religion that would be called faith. Obnoxious faith, but faith nonetheless. Well, it ain't no different coming from the other side.Yes, it can be theory and fact at the same time, there is no problem with that. If you actually understood Science and evolution, you would understand that.
Your questions can be answered if you took the time to understand evolution, but you haven't done that. It can't be explained to you on an internet forum.
Then, show us you don't possess an inferior intellect and take the time to understand evolution. Simple, really.
Some psychologists say it is better to vent anger(and other emotions) rather than pile up the tension and cause future problems.
But other psychologists say "grow up".
Similar is the case with religion, either one can make a parent and ask his support all through out or one can grow up. The only catch is that the people who do not want to grow up should not insist that others too should not grow up.
I can’t comment beneath the comment I wanted to comment on. It’s all screwed up but I’ll say it here. I have been in Academia for over 8 years. I have sat before the religious atheist scientist who assert evolution is fact. Then I have been in front of the agnostic ones who have no religion at all and they go through why it is held in esteem but always say that there isnot enough evidence to claim the leap that is necessary to reach the Big Bang, to the the goo to the proteins forming due to lightning type activity amongst the primordial goo to fish to monkeys to man, they say that it takes faith to believe in it and that they do not know. Atheism is a religion in and of itself. Their faith in their beliefs is as strong as any faith in God a believer has. I have known PhDs who go to church and teach evolution and then tear it apart in the same breath.
The people who believe in the nothing is out there God go to church in these kind of places and preach. They’re ignorant and have either 1) been the student of an atheist preacher or 2) never went to school and think all the hub is fact. They can’t comprehend “theory”. They’re told to not mind that, knowing is better than not knowing and so they know that God isn’t real and preach it.
Really, I’ve been reading you. I don’t believe Jesus ever said we can eat seafood. He said, think not that I come to destroy the law or the prophets, but I am come to magnify them. Meaning, everything is still true but he wanted us to better understand the purpose of those laws. Even a doctor will tell you eating pork is bad for you. Eating seafood kills some people and is bad for everyone. Following those dietary laws is a healthier lifestyle. Jesus didn’t eat and we shouldn’t either. This is why I believe we have atheists. The words that come from some who proclaim to know the Word is contradictory from what it actually says.
Those people in Moses’ say were Israelites and not Jews. Jews are the tribe of Judah and Moses was a Levite. People don’t even know these things. I am point it out because there are millions upon millions of “christians” who aren’t really Christian. They don’t know enough to argue on behalf of the Word.You are perhaps correct a doctor may tell you eating pork is bad for you and for some shellfish can kill, but the same can be said for nuts. Is it written somewhere in the bible to not eat nuts?
You can find ONE or TWO doctors who will claim pork is bad for you, but you will find many who will tell you it's no longer any worse than beef.
Now for the seafood, salmon is said to be very good for you. I'll bet the vast majority of doctors will agree that salmon is good for you and should be eaten a few times a week.
You claim about atheist is purely ignorant.That appears to be total fabrication, most likely the part about your so-called "Academia" as well.
Complete LIES...and shows no indication of any advanced thinking. Sounds like some believers just make up things just so they can appear "superior." This is really disturbing.
The bible is the REAL source of the confusion, as it is a book written by goat herders who were ignorant of modern day nutritional discoveries.That’s always the religion’s go to thing. Just like hell is the so called godly’s go to thing.
LIES I TELL YA LIES! ITS ALL LIES! YOU’RE ALL DUMB CAUSE WEZE DEM SMART ONES.
Never been in Academia eh? There are all types of professors. NOt all scientists are atheists.
You have a picture of Einstein and yet didn’t even know anything he said. You think Free Thinker means atheist.
Let me tell you about Einstein since you know nothing about him nor have ever read anything by him. Einstein was a complete dope. He couldn’t take a stand in any direction because his mind did not work well on a normal psychological level. Einstein had the same suit because he couldn’t make a choice and found that when everything is the same, he made a choice.
One day Einstein was saying atheistic things. Then he said things that separated him from atheism. He could not decide anything. He couldn’t do simple math. Einstein couldn’t walk without getting distracted by something in the sky and people thought him very odd. Because he was.
Now, with that said, are you really a free thinker? Free thinkers do not belong to cults. They are clear of all affiliations or philosophies. Being a religious atheist makes you a thinker associated and not free at all. You have a philosophy thats age old.
Look at my Twitter. Its available. Don’t believe me, IDC. The point is that educated people aren’t with you or your views. The goo theory died a long time ago as did evolution. They don’t have a link. They don’t even know if dinosaurs were feathered or scaled. Dopes. Read. It really will help you learn some things.Still making up lies about Einstein? How very sad.
He graduated as a teacher of physics and mathematics in 1900 from Swiss National Polytechnic in Zurich and in 1905, received his doctorate for a thesis entitled On a new determination of molecular dimensions.
Couldn't do simple math? ha ha aha ahaha. E = mc2“Do not worry about your difficulties in Mathematics. I can assure you mine are still greater.” He often got the help of mathematicians, asking them to check his work. He even had trouble while working on one of his most famous theories. During the time he was working on the theory of general relativity, he made a number of mathematical errors.
That is from his biographer Walter Isaacson.
Einstein was accelerated in math but his specialty was intuition. He knew how it worked, but could not place it into mathematic terms. He used mathematicians to help him with his problems in very advanced math.
Read his biography like I have. Of course, he was a genius and Jewish. A lot of Jewish people advance our sciences and have great talents. Goes to show you the benefits of being one of God’s people. He was a genius, but if diagnosed today would most likely be diagnosed as having Asperger’s Syndrome. The same thing the kid who shot all those children had. He was a very weird man with weird quirks and just because he was intelligent in one thing, does not mean he was intelligent in everything else.As a father of two children who have ASD, I really, really wish you wouldn't have said what you said. While it's true that Adam Lanza probably had Asperger's, such offhand comments do nothing to help anyone. And the mainstream media, whether CNN or Fox, were sure quick enough to jump on that.
ASD=Autism Spectrum Disorder, a range which includes Asperger's.
It was not the Asperger's that "made" Lanza kill the kids.
I'm not sure how you meant it, but that was insensitive.I didn’t intend to say Asperger’s killed anyone. I intended to say the kid who developed the kill mentality, had Asperger’s. totally different than what you thought I intended.
I was stating that, Einstein was very odd and probably had Asperger’s, the same thing that this child had. Of course Asperger’s doesn’t lead to becoming a murderer. I have a childhood friend and a cousin who both had children with Autism. It has its levels of severity. BUT when we are talking about Autism, Austism along with other factors, such as bad parenting, uncaring parenting, loneliness or whatever happened to this young man that developed murderous tendencies, the Aspergers contributed to the end result, it was because of Autism that the act happened.
And I meant weird in the sense of uncommon behavior. Quirks. I’d never insult Autistic children. They have gifts as well as quirks and I am related to someone with it.You're wrong. The Autism did not contribute to him killing.
I know that's unprovable but my poor kid gets so many looks out in public now, and the media was so quick to jump on the Autism thing, and you're just adding fuel to the fire. The fact is that there has never been any evidence that Autism in any form contributes to murderous tendencies. There has never been any evidence that any mass murderers or serial killers other than Lanza had it. And for you to keep asserting that the Aspergers contributed to the killing spree, no matter how you attempt to modify it afterwards, is not all that different from saying that alcoholics simply lack self-control and women wearing short skirts want to be raped. And there are too many people out there who will latch onto this because we have no other answers.I agree Chris, It's painful to watch people blame this on a disorder when the kid walked in with an assault/semi rifle. There will always be people who loose it for what ever reason, and there will always be people playing the blame game rather than asking why this kid had access to that weapon. There is big money in American weapons and big money brings big spin doctors.
He was a troubled young man. To say that Asperger’s did not lend a hand in this would be ignorant. He was troubled because he had Asperger’s. The mental health aspect is apparent.
Just because you have autistic children does not mean that your children are going to murder someone. But if your children are raised poorly, the autism could lend a hand to an already decadent ability to process common sense.
Not every person with schizophrenia goes on murderous rampages, but if they aren’t treated and their life circumstances are just right, they could very well end up doing so.He was troubled because he had Aspergers.... and you know that how? As a matter of fact I'm not even sure where you get the idea it would in any way shape or form lead him to shoot someone. Could you tell me how on earth you would draw the conclusion it would?
For one. I watcched as it all came to light. On Twitter, his high school classmates went on and on about him being a weirdo. Having Asperger’s created a person that other kids made fun of. It isn’t due to having Asperger’s that he killed anyone, the being troubled part derives from having Asperger’s Syndrome because society (his classmates) so obviously created a world for him that made him feel isolated. I feel bad for him for how the people who knew him have spoken about him. They call him names because he had Asperger’s.
I draw the conclusion that his life was abnormal due to having Asperger’s and he probably never received the care he needed. His father left and with autism, change can result in even more troubles.
Again, I don’t blame Asperger’s for the murders. I believe him being troubled and isolated was the result of having Asperger’s and would make it a contributing factor.1. Having Aspergers doesn't make anyone a weirdo.
2. Adam Lanza was never diagnosed with Aspergers. Ever. So I'm not sure how he could be teased for it. Why do you believe he had it?
http://www.examiner.com/article/former- … kills-self It isn’t an isolated case. It happens and Asperger’s is always a contributing factor but not the cause. It is very devastating to be ridiculed for something one can’t help. Society tends to stigmatized these fellows.
Christopher Krumm (The Vernon shooter) was never diagnosed with Aspergers. Ever.
You simply make my point for me. Schizophrenia is a mental illness well known and documented. People hear voices and have paranoia. Do most people with it go out and kill someone? No. But it's far more likely to be connected to a killing, and rarely mass murder, than Autism.
Many people who commit mass murder or seral murder were raised poorly. Still, under your logic, since they weren't autistic they didn't actually kill anybody, right? You have as much as said that poor parenting + autism = mass killer.
And it isn't so.
But the witch hunt goes on, even if in this little corner of the electronosphere...
I intended to say, “wasn’t because of Asperger’s Syndrome that it happened".
http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/national/a … -be-buried
Adam Lanza’s own relatives state that he was diagnosed as having autism. Again, it isn’t the cause, it can be a factor. Whether you call autistic children weird or not, society is cruel and any unusual behavior will grab the cruel types and have them pointing a person out as strange. It is hard enough to not have autism and attend public school. I’m not blaming autism, I am blaming how other children treated him and have talked about him since. They say “no surprise, he was always a weirdo”. That leaves room to believe that bullying probably played a role in his actions. It has been said “he carried a briefcase to school” as if that is something that makes him a weirdo. He sounded to me to be someone who cared about school and kept to himself. He didn’t fall into fads or trying to be cool."A relative told investigators that the gunman had a form of autism, according to a law enforcement official, who spoke under condition of anonymity because of the sensitive nature of the investigation"
"CNN has not been able to confirm independently whether he was diagnosed with autism or Asperger's syndrome, a higher-functioning form of autism."
A relative saying that he had it does not mean it was diagnosed... Lots of people say that their "weird" relatives have aspergers. Just because someone is socially awkward doesn't mean they are an aspie. Had he been diagnosed it would have been in some record somewhere... as they are studying his DNA I would assume they probably pulled his medical records at some point.Correct. It is still under investigation. We do know that his actions, mannerisms, lack of emotion and understanding of other people’s emotions are evidence of AD. He fits the profile and if it was undiagnosed, would be the main reason that he did not get the help he needed.
Thus, he had no recourse or help to work through the issues that he had developed.Wow... you really don't understand aspergers at all. 1. Aspies have emotions... lots of them. The same as you and me. 2. Aspies don't have "mannerisms" any more than you and I do. 3. Aspies understand other peoples emotions and do have empathy... they have difficulty reading social cues and facial expressions.
You just described a sociopath... not an aspie.
Neither was Jeffrey Dahmer but after the fact, it was realized that he fit the profile.
There have been intensive studies into the relation between AD and serial murder. Trust me, I didn’t think it up. It is just a possibility that untreated AD and the like can lead to this.
http://www.autismwebsite.com/crimetimes/05c/w05cp13.htm
I know there is a segment who do not want to stigmatize anyone as a murderer simply because they have AD. I am simply saying that it needs to be diagnosed and treated. If it isn’t, just like schizophrenia, it can lead to bad things happening.You do realize that Dr. Silva's findings have been discounted by pretty much every legitimate psychologist in the field right?
He himself says “I do agree that epidemiologically and statistically, there is no connection” He too describes a socio/psychopath instead of an aspie.Because I KNEW that I recognized Dr. Arturo Silva's name from more than the AD work and it was really nagging me I went looking...
Dr. Silva also written some very interesting papers about Lycanthropy(Werewolves)... Cotard's syndrome (Zombies) Capgras syndrome(body snatchers) and clinical vampirism.
Draw your own conclusions about his areas of expertise....
It is painfully apparent that some people lack the ability to argue in a sensible and orderly manner. Some also lack the ability to stay focused, or the education to actually comprehend what is being said.
Some people become frustrated, and decide that outright personal attacks on others, including slander and erroneous assumptions, are part of the art of argument. To those people, I have nothing to say.I know, that was my point entirely. Some people lack the ability to accept people’s beliefs to be none of their business. So just stop with the zealotry for the “don’t know” policy.
Retrieved from CNN
Einstein, raised a secular Jew, also had a rich, complicated relationship with God.
"He said that his concept of God was related to the spirit he found manifest in the laws of the universe," Isaacson says. "He said that the spirit of God's laws makes him feel humble and awed."
Indeed, he resisted some of the determinations of quantum theory because they insisted on what Einstein called "spooky uncertainties" in the universe -- to which Einstein famously responded that God "does not play dice.”
The point has always been, I do not care what you believe so why do you care what I believe. The personal attacks have come from your side all throughout this discussion and have nothing to do with the original forum post. You took it here.
It only becomes a personal attack when it is directed back at you and Einstein. Einstein was a free thinker. You are not. You hold allegiance to an age-old philosophy, he did not like religions. Yours is a religion whether you like to admit it or not, but I won’t call you unintelligent for it. You call believers that in just about every other post.
So, if you want an adult conversation, act like an adult and I’ll talk on a level more akin to yours just like I have been all along.Thanks. I’m not arguing what they suggest I am. I’m in opposition to the tone they have. It’s aggressive and quite ridiculous. People’s beliefs are what started America. Their entire argument is anti-American. They want their view made law and religion to be outlawed. I think they should do what they want and quit peeking into their neighbor’s windows.
So we should only read modern books of any kind? Anything beyond five years old, when they were ignorant of many modern nutritional discoveries, should be banned? Like the comlete works of Shakespeare?
I don’t get why believers and atheists both have this need to prove their system of thought. Believing there is a God is no more ridiculous than believing that a lightning strike set off a chain reaction to begin forming all the proteins necessary for life.
By following scientific principles, Stephen Unwin derived that the chance of God’s existence is 67% while the chance for life to have spontaneously erupted to be at such an improbable height that I couldn’t fit the numbers here on this page.
It really is no different to listen to Dawkins or Unwin, each have their own scientific proof of their position. Everyone else will just recant it as evidence of their preferred position.
If religion has slighted you, then have a problem with that religion or the people involved. You shouldn’t attack everyone who believes because you got your feelings hurt.
It really doesn’t show low intellect to believe or to not believe. Both have their own evidence even if one refuses to accept the other’s. To fight over it does show more about a person than they’d want to show. Grudges are hard to hide.Nothing but net, JRScarborough, I couldn't have said it better myself!!
I really don’t mind these debates. I tend to enjoy them while they last. It seems that non-believers have come under the impression that their position is somehow the academic’s position. That it is the intelligent position. A lot of them have determined that intelligence means to fall into this evolution nonsense and this atheist delusion.
I’ve determined that no matter if it is governance from The Papacy, a mullah or Richard Dawkins, it’s all religion. The proof is in the militant defense of their positions and being quick to start hurling prejudice and bigotry. I see it from religions and cultist atheism alike.
Again, I say, why does anyone feel the need to involve themselves in someone else’s system of belief? Mike Huckabee, Richard Dawkins, these people; they’re all the same.
I can guarantee that I have excelled in academia and remained true to my beliefs. One does not cancel out the other. In fact, the most intelligent people that I know are non-religious believers. I don’t think a person can gain enough knowledge to calculate nothing + nothing = something. Intelligent design admits that humanity is not the big kid on the block and that ticks off people who want to assume a Holy role of some kind.
I suppose it all infringes on their ego.No, it is true, you certainly need some intelligence to understand evolution.
Yet, your posts would indicate no such academia is present, quite the contrary, in fact.
The first is an argument from incredulity while the latter is science.
Sorry, but that is a nonsensical equation based on subjective beliefs.
LOL. No, Dawkins uses hard evidence, not subjective beliefs. Huge difference.I never saw this. Are you seriously going to use Dawkins as hard evidence. Name Dawkins evidence. Dawkins evidence is that he doesn’t know anything. Bill O’Reilly wasted him in front of the camera. LMAO!! Dawkins? You’re have a religion and you just proved it. Dawkins is your religion. Your religion is really agnosticism and you think Dawkins is intelligent only because he speaks with a British accent and that is attractive to you.
Dawkins is not an expert on anything. He likes to talk but can’t debate because he always falls back on, “well... we can’t know” and then people like me respond, then how do you know there cannot be a something else in that don;t know. And he says, well it is very possible that aliens seed life. And then we go, then where did they originate? And he says, well, we can’t know that. Then how do you know that something else didn’t create them? And he starts stuttering and looking like he’s going to cry. Do you even listen or watch anything intelligent? Or has that just become your battle cry? Troubled Man? Me thinks the trouble is you don’t know.He is an evolutionary biologist. Sorry, that you are unaware of what occurs in the scientific community.
More fabrications. Is there some reason you are compelled to lie about things as opposed to dealing in facts?
How very dishonest and condescending of you to say so.
Another lie.
Fabrications, lies and personal insults appears to be all you know about. It is interesting to see what your religion is teaching you to do.What does wikipedia have to say about it?
"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_ … t_EinsteinHe actually cares what people think. Einstein was special. One day he believed in God the next he couldn’t find the right color toilet paper and went potty on himself and had to be wiped. The next, he decided he didn’t believe in God cause he went potty on himself.
Again Einstein was a lunatic. Somebody else put the math together. It took math to makes sense of his mental problems.
You care. You care. But you are down and troubled. Certainly rage in your religious passion there Troubled. Devoted to I DONT KNOW. lolI can only conclude from that I'm not having a discussion with an adult.
Shameful. No respect, no integrity. <--- devoted rage in my religious passionIf you want adult discussions, act like an adult during the entire discussion.
No respect is belittling people for believing in a God. Calling them stupid and jumping into a forum to show zealotry on behalf of atheism is disrespecting those that have expressed viewpoints different from yours. So you think religion is the world’s problems. So what? I don’t care if you believe that.
Here are my views. I believe in God. I believe everyone has the right to believe what they want to believe. I don’t think anyone is stupid for believing what they believe. I think there are scientific reasons for every belief. I’ve stated all of that before and was met with nothing but condescending remarks by you and the other members of the United Atheist Church of Dawkins.
My points are that the guy with Einstein on his profile pic knows nothing of Einstein. You don’t know anything about Dawkins. None of you have ever spent a day around a PhD Physicist who also attends church on Sunday. So how can you say that believing is also a lack of education or unintelligent? You don’t have the facts or the experience to support your beliefs.
From CNN and Einstein’s Biographer
"He said that his concept of God was related to the spirit he found manifest in the laws of the universe," Isaacson says. "He said that the spirit of God's laws makes him feel humble and awed."
Indeed, he resisted some of the determinations of quantum theory because they insisted on what Einstein called "spooky uncertainties" in the universe -- to which Einstein famously responded that God "does not play dice.”
Here is Ben Stiller and Richard Dawkins and you can see clearly that Dawkins doesn’t know anything. His point is that we don’t know, not that we know that God doesn’t exist. He makes money off of controversy. That’s all. He enrages believers so that he attracts the less than intelligent who have a problem putting actual science into a proper context. There is no science that disproves God. There is no evidence of a God’s existence just like there is no evidence of a primordial goo. One leap is not a better leap simply because it helps one cause or the other more.
My belief is that the I don’t know part of Dawkins’ I don’t know explanations is God. God is the originator no matter how we came to be human, the before is a higher intelligence beyond physical measure.
Why does that make you zealots so heated?
Actually, God isn't my fun. Is He yours?
Nothing good can come from not allowing people to have their own religious beliefs. Even if you don't believe in any religion, we have the freedom to feel that way.
I agree with Mike that is when the ball started rolling and evil and violence have since continued to escalate among our children and children's children. Abe Lincoln warned us as a Nation. God has warned us. If we drift from God as a nation then the hedge of protection placed on us will be removed. The hedge of protection placed by God has slowly been lifted. He did not do it. We as a nation have allowed God to be taken out of schools and government and public venues. Then when evil takes place it is just a reason to condemn God. We have shunned God. We Mach Him.
Children want and need consistent, they need hope. They want safety. We only offer safety in the world through material value and self seeking. We say there are many ways. NO because GOD is the only thing that does not change. People change, jobs change, homes break up. mothers marry girlfriend on and on. What is a kid to beleive. They get put on meds for add and or depression. The parents are so upside down the kid is a mess. God help us. Good does not get it because no one is good. We all fall short and are sinners. God offers HIS safety and the forgivenss of sins but will not force anyone to believe in HIM. He is the only way, there is no other. You have to admit the rise in evil and wickedness since prayer and the Bible were banned from schools around 1967 is heartbreaking. The devil wants to deceive many and many will say I am crazy. they are not decieved. Well, God does not create evil. He will allow it to happen and we can not begin to imagine how many times He has stopped evil from happening. Well the more the USA continues to shine on God He will stand back. It is a decision we make in this lifetime who will we follow GOD or the World that Satan the prince of darkness reign's? We have free will to choose. Kids do not know these days and many come from broken families. They long to know. There is no chance in school not anymore. SAD SAD SAD. I hope to God prayer comes back to schools along with the Bible before it is too late.
For me I choose GOD. The devil and his followers are hell bound he knows it too. The devil hates anything GOD created. Well God created everything. The devil lies to all people telling them GOD is the reason. The devil hates humans, God created us. He wants to drag all he can to hell with him. Well thats Gods story and I am sticking to it.
Jesus loves you. All He wants is our love. He is the light. It is never to late until it is too late. Jesus has open arms. The problem being many have hardened hearts to God. Sad but true. So sad. God only wants to bless us. Love, Skye
It's time to take credit when due and take blame when due. You are putting the blame elsewhere and not taking accountability. Be accountable. Stating taking prayer out of public schools has caused this shooting is simply ridiculous. Giving a sick boy access to an assault rifle is what cause this. If you want kids to pray every morning let them do it before school. Be accountable, don't blame the devil.
Bravo. I have to agree with Ram Man on this point. Allowing a troubled young man access to 2 hand guns and an AR15 is the root cause of this tragedy/ This shooter was from outside the school. What was going on with God or a lack of God inside the school had nothing to do with the shooter’s mentality and anger. When this 20 year old shooter was in grammar school, prayer was still allowed in school.
No problem, I've been called much worse and thanks for the thumbs up.
GOD was taken out of school in 1967 before this young man was born. If we put GOD back into this nation there would be allot less evil and wickedness. If we put Jesus back in the home there would be allot less mental illness, anger, frustration, depression, oppression, despair, lack, addiction, porn, abuse, cutting, teen pregnancy, corruption, greed. Why so because God is the LIGHT. When we took God out of the schools evil and wickedness escalated at an alarming rate.
Do you have any evidence to back that up. Show me any Christian nation that is peaceful? Show me any religious nation that is peaceful?
rad man The USA was founded on Bibical Principals but that does not mean all were believers. The USA is thought of to be a Christian Nation and it was obvious a few decades back. We were a powerful nation. Rich in the economy and prosperous. We stood by Israel and helped other nations. Now we ignore those that need our help. I recall the blessed days because I lived then. God is still merciful and grace. He loves His creation. He weeps at the evil and wickedness. When we started taking God out of the picture and running the show our own way then evil and wickedness got more prevalent. There has always been unbelievers. We in the USA have taken the principals the nation was founded upon GOD and taken HIM out of the picture in schools, government, public venues, economy. All we need to do is look out the window evil and wickedness is rampant. When God was honored in this nation we were the most blessed nation in all the world. We are still very blessed but as we shine on God and His word He will lift His hedge of protection. Why becasue we have choosen another way to go. His grace and mercy still abounds becasue He is God and does not want any to perish. Jesus died for the sins of the world. If we say no way to God will we have peace? No I think not. The good news is this God will never leave nor abandon HIs Children. Hebrew 3:13 He has us covered. There is great peace in knowing God. How could we not love HIm. He is so awesome I know He saved my bacon. I am a new person only becasue He picked me up and I said yes, I want to know you Jesus. We all have a choice.
Anyway religious nation? Well all nations have religion. Man made stuff. Does religion give people peace? Jesus is the Princ bee of peace. Christianity is not a religion but a personal relationship with Jesus. A.huge huge difference from religion. If we know God we will Know peace. If we do not know God we will not know peace. Our nation is at unrest. God did not do it. Will He fix it? Yes He can only if we come back to Him. If not He allows things to happen. Not because He is punishing us. Our sin brings us down. Gods day of wrath will come. Anyway that is another topic. So rad man. No condemnation toward you. I am not casting any stones. God Bless you rad man. If you do not know Jesus it is not to late yet. He does change lives, I am evidence of that.Can you name any actual Christian nations? And please don't say the United States, too many people have worked too long and too successfully at trying to get God out of the public square. Yes, Christianity is very public here but it's not the law of the land. America is many things but today it is no a "Christian nation."
That turns out to be a tricky thing to do. It's clearly not a matter of a nation being mostly Christian and having an official Christian Church. The question is wether the government in influenced by the church. If they don't have a clear separation of Church and State. The U.S. clearly has a separation, but it's government is clearly under the influence of the Christianity.
As you know most of the Europe in the middle ages was controlled by the church and that was not a peaceful time. I think most of these countries have realized a separation was needed, but it did not come easy. While Catholicism endorses religious freedom it also thinks it should play it part in politics and does the rest of Christianity.
This is a list I found of non-secular countries. I'm not sure of it's accuracy.
1-Kingdom of Saudi Arabia
2-Yemen
3-United Arab Emraties
4-Sultant of Oman
5-State of Qatar
6-Kingdom of Bahrain
7-State of Kuwait
8-Iraq
9-Syrian Arab republic
10-Jordan
11-Arab republic of Egypt
12-Sudan
13-Lybia
14-Tunisia
15-Algeria
16-Morocco
17-Islamic republic of Muritania
18-Islamic republic of Iran
19-Islamic republic Pakistan
20-Islamic republic of Afghanistan
21-Maladivs
22-Malaysia
23-Brunanie
24-Vatican
25-Bahutan
26-Vietnam
Jurisdictions which recognize Catholicism as their state or official religion:
Alsace-Moselle
Costa Rica
Liechtenstein
Malta
Monaco
Vatican City
Ambiguous states
1-Argentina
2-United Kingdom
3-Indonesia
4-Finland
5-Norway
6-Germany
7-Lebanon
8-Sri Lanka
9-SyriaLiechenstein? Wow, learn something new every day.
Obviously I'm not Catholic. In fact, I'm more of a Reformationalist, which if you were a religious Catholic would put us at odds in a whole new way. However, my point is that many of us (Reformational Protestants) have thought long and hard about the dichotomy between what Jesus actually taught and the way that many heads of state (including more than one Pope) who claim that name have acted. That gap is wide, indeed. And I think it's telling that most of the countries you found are Muslim. And Monaco is a difficult place to think of as a religious state.
The separation that was needed was for the state to stop telling people how to worship. In many modern Islamic countries and almost all ancient countries of any persuasion, the state not only had an official church but made it a crime not to be part of that church. One of the genius things about America is that our country said worship as you wish. Thomas Jefferson, who coined the term "Separation of Church and State" originally meant that the government had no business telling people how to worship (in a letter to a Baptist church, not in the Constitution.) But after the 1940's, a relatively small but nonetheless powerful group of people who didn't like religion has managed to pervert that, and now the government often tells people not to worship at all.
Yes, our government is still "influenced" by Christianity, but the influence is more and more diluted and difficult to find. Yeah, there are plenty of politicians who claim Christianity, but they tend to be isolated pockets or rabble rousers, not truly committed, theologically well-versed people and certainly not in positions to directly effect the culture or the laws. Many times the Supreme Court will rule in opposition to Christianity, often because it is Christianity.Interesting Chris, from my perspective as a very close outsider we see how heavily Christianity influences politics in the U.S. It's a given that the president needs to be some kind of Christian to be elected and even then it's called into question. A good percentage of the country still thinks your president is muslim. Up here no one cares. The current Prime Minister is a Christian, but he says he makes discussions based on collective similarities of all religions. As a side note was also don't care who is wife or children are. They weren't elected into power.
Well, a lot of people think the same about the wife and children here as well. But most of us believe that a family man in a stable, long-term marriage is much more likely to be a stable leader. It's certainly no guarantee but it is accepted wisdom.
Interestingly, Chuck Colson, one time "hatchet man" to President Richard Nixon and later Evangelical thought-leader, said pretty much the same thing. The President is president of all the people, no matter what their religion. And that's true. But a Christian will think about some things differently than a Muslim or a Hindu or a committed Atheist (Israel, for instance.)
Here in the US there is a simmering but long-running debate about the media and whether it is liberal or not, including the news. Film critic Michael Medved (who is conservative and Jewish and at least for a while was the darling of the conservative Christian circles) has been known to cite a study that was done twenty or so years ago in which a majority of people who were in news divisions at that time noted that they considered themselves liberal and agnostic. It affects the kinds of stories that are put on, which in turn affects the way we see ourselves and others see us. I think America looks a lot more Christian to people on the outside (even Canada and Mexico) than it does to most people here. I think the more seriously you take your Christianity the less Christian America looks, and conversely the less seriously you take it, or the more you dislike it, the more Christian America looks.
Excellent points JR and Rad Man, although I understand where Sky is coming from, I lean more to the faults that our entire culture is built on sin...Greed, Lust, Vanity...I believe prayer, a moment of silence, was a good thing in school...I remember doing devotions in home room...but the availability of weapons of mass destruction, immoral programming, and a serious problem with our health and mental health care situation in this country are the underlying problem of these heinous, and yes, evil acts.
I believe that the answer to this is so simple that most miss it. In this universe, in all of creation, there are certain principles that have been established; Gravity, Agriculture, Time, Aerodynamics, etc. Violation of already established principles seldom, if ever, bring about good results. The principles in themselves determine the proper working order of the thing. For example, the same electricity that lights your house will kill you if you mishandle it. Does that mean it's electricity's fault? More often than not God is blamed for misdeeds of MAN or other evil entities. I believe that if America, as a whole, were to honor the 2 most important principles that God ordained. 1. To love the LORD with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and number 2: to love your neighbor as yourself, we'd see more blessing and less curse in America. Until then, we're just jumping off skyscrapers and blaming God for gravity.
Well said. And it is absolutely correct. The lack of God inside schools is minuscule in comparison to the lack of God inside homes.
bicurry Thank you so much for taking the time to post all the wonderful scripture. Awesome works for our Lord. You keep going brian. You will I am sure Phil 4:13 I pray hearts are touched and seeds are planted. I do believe they will be. USA bring God back into our Nation!!!!!!! God Bless you bi. Skye
very nicely put
it is true of the whole world God never ordained anything, as He has not even been proven to exist. WE(man) created these morals over the years. Therefore it is up to us, and not some imaginary God, to maintain a more civil society.
The 1st commandment is nonsense, since it commands that we, blindly, love something that's nothing more than a character in a childish fairy tale. The second commandment, of course, is the basis for a better life, however, we don't need an imaginary God to tell us that.Genesis 1:1 reads,
1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth".
Psalms 8: 1-9 reads,
8 "O Lord, our Lord,
How excellent is Your name in all the earth,
Who have set Your glory above the heavens!
2 Out of the mouth of babes and nursing infants
You have ordained strength,
Because of Your enemies,
That You may silence the enemy and the avenger.
3 When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers,
The moon and the stars, which You have ordained,
4 What is man that You are mindful of him,
And the son of man that You visit him?
5 For You have made him a little lower than the angels,[b]
And You have crowned him with glory and honor.
6 You have made him to have dominion over the works of Your hands;
You have put all things under his feet,
7 All sheep and oxen—
Even the beasts of the field,
8 The birds of the air,
And the fish of the sea
That pass through the paths of the seas.
9 O Lord, our Lord,
How excellent is Your name in all the earth!"
Psalms 19;1-4 reads,
19 "The heavens declare the glory of God;
And the firmament shows His handiwork.
2 Day unto day utters speech,
And night unto night reveals knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language
Where their voice is not heard."
Romans 1:20-22 reads,
20 "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man..."
Hebrews 11:1-3 reads,
11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.
3 "By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible."
Colossians 2:8 reads,
"Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ".
Romans *:1-17 reads,
8 "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together."
All of the above scripture, as with anything with God, can only be received by FAITH, by REVELATION, which is greater that REASON. Even though one can reasonably see in creation, as mentioned above, the very existence of God. Moreover, you can EXPERIENCE the Father through Christ.
The choice is yours. You're a free moral agent. I pray that you come to a greater knowledge of the Son of God, that the eyes of your heart be enlightened, that you fulfill the plan and purpose for your life here in the earth, because ultimatley we will all stand before God and give an account of our lives, and finally I pray that you will be a blessing and a joy to your family.
These days it seems that people would rather reject overwhelming evidence of the truth and believe lies with no supporting evidence and even go so far as to fabricate "evidence" to support lies. But we are not ignorant of those devices. I'd even go so far as to say that non-believers of God actually have more faith than most believers of God simply because they believe that they don't believe! Again, I pray that the scriptures listed above may be of some small assistance in hopes that you find God, come to a place of faith in God and stay there. Peace and blessings to you.
-BrianThese scriptures are useless. They answer NOTHING at all. Are you not aware of how irrelevant it is to quote verses from a primitive book of childish beliefs, written by Bronze Age goat herders?
Then, in the immortal, immutable, wonderful words of JESUS, "Be it unto to you according to YOUR faith." As for me and my house..... Peace!
Matthew 10:14~
And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town.Isaiah 6:8-10,
8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Mark 4:10-12,
10 But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable.
11 And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, 12 so that
‘Seeing they may see and not perceive,
And hearing they may hear and not understand;
Lest they should turn,
And their sins be forgiven them.’”
@ Thessalonians 2:9-12,
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Out of the mouth of 3 witnesses.......Isaiah, Mark and Paul.bicurry Thank you for posting the scripture. Anyway as you know it is impossible for those without the Spirit of God to understand the Kingdom of God. Yep shake off the boots. Keep going brother. Phil 4:13 U will I am sure. Awesome to meet a bro at the forums. Many blessings Brian Skye.
Except that God DOES exist and He has ordained a great many things.
Skye2day you are spot on in your thoughts. Praise God for people like you in this country.
getitrite, With all due respect. I am praying for you and that you will GET IT before it is too late. Jesus saves. Your choice. The seeds have been planted. May God bend your heart to him getitrite. No one wants to pass this earth without knowing Jesus. If you need evidence of that just go to you tube and look at some near death experience of individuals spared from hell who came back to tell about it. Not even a place any one would ever want to go, we are talking eternity!!!!!!!!. Why can't people just look in the mirror and accept they need a savior because they are sinners. Every one ever born is a sinner, me included. Not many Christians were floating on a pink cloud when we invited Jesus into our heart as Lord and Savior. The wages of sin is death. We are forgiven when born again and cleansed from unrighteousness. I am so grateful Jesus came for me and I said yes. Jesus is the only way. There is no other way.
In Christ, Skye.I am an atheist, therefore praying for me already shows disrespect.
This appears to be nothing more than whimsical regurgitation. This world view is seriously disturbing.Fortunately most people are not depressed enough to see a sinner in the mirror. They see a wonderful personality who is the most important person. But if you are so disgusted with what you see, it is better to take the help of a psychiatrist or stop looking in the mirror altogether.
I never recall saying I looked in the mirror and saw depressed. That is past tense. So you see Mr wonderful in the mirror? All on your own merit as well. Three cheers for you with all due respect. I needed a savior, me sinner, forgiven. You see no reason for a Savior? Your sins are acceptable or you do not sin? You see I lied, cheated, abused drugs, alcohol, sex. I engaged in greed. I manipulated, used harsh words, did not love my neighbors, blamed everyone, stole, did not respect my parents, had anger and I was depressed. I sought the Lord and He rescued me from my sin. I had a heart transplant. I look in the mirror and see a woman that loves the Lord, I am forgiven not because I deserve it but because Jesus loved me first. So U are beautiful and do not get depressed? You are all serving? I serve the Lord Jesus the Savior of the world. I was depressed and self serving and self seeking trying to fill the hole with stuff. I almost died in my sin. I am so blessed and forgiven. Gods grace and mercy covers me because I make mistakes. They are not appealing any longer. I am about Jesus work and I tell others the good news of salvation. It is not all about me or how wonderful I am or about my good works or errors. It is about Jesus the King of Kings. One day every knee WILL bow and know HE is LORD. So I dust off my boots and move on. Love and Peace Skye
Your life is all good huh? Yes for you. Well Jesus waits with open arms. The bad news about denying Jesus is He will deny you when He returns. You have made your choice and have your own master who you follow. With all due respect you have a good life. I dust off my boots and move on. Live it up and be wonderful, remember YOU deserve it. The humbled will be exalted the exalted will be humbled.
SkyeCan you not see the irony in chiding someone for not seeing their own flaws (completely missing their point BTW) and then claiming you are so great that you "have a peace that transcends all understanding."
-
I ma not depressed, a drug addict....or any of the thing you describe. Yes I see a wonderful person when I look into the mirror, a unique person with no other copies. And most normal people see the same. I am sorry that you are depressed, but I do not need any myth to feel good.
I deserve it? What about the Africans who have nothing to eat? Do they deserve that fate?
- Deepes Mindposted 12 years ago0
Religion is not the problem in itself. Neither is removing God from schools the cause or problem. All religion is is just a set of beliefs that is practiced by a group of people. The real problem is in people's interpretation of that set of beliefs and their actions based on their interpretation of the information contained therein. There can be several reasons for the shooting that occurred. The number one reason is that these individuals are either sick in the head or angry about an occurrence that triggered the rampage. God in himself has no specific part in this particular idea. Some atheists (SOME, not ALL.. as in ones I've spoken with) deny the existence of God because of an interpretation of the bible as well as their interpretation of someone else's interpretation of the bible that was taught to them. On the other side of the coin, A lot of Christians live their lives and beliefs based on their personal relationships with God and Their own interpretations of the bible, their acceptance of others' interpretations of the bible, or a combination of the two. both of these concepts can leave margin for error in the application of said beliefs. with these debates, there is always some type of argument that can be made and twisted contextually to contradict another's point of view.
For instance, for those who believe in the big bang theory, what caused the big bang? and what caused whatever caused the big bang? There is no way we can know that for sure so that leaves open the possibility that the "Big Bang" was God clapping his hands, thus reinforcing the beliefs of Christians.
Or for the Christians "What proof is there that God expelled Adam and Eve? Where is the physical evidence of his appearance on earth?" Again something that cannot be answered which in turn reinforces the beliefs of Atheists.
All I'm saying is that it isn't the information that is provided that is the problem. It's people's interpretation of the information that causes the conflicts and is the catalyst for Beliefs and opinions.. Evidence presented does not always unimpeachably prove things to be true. Evidence provided sometimes just reinforces our opinions and beliefs which we then hold on to as true to us as individuals.
I'm just playing devil's advocate here.. Now back to our regularly scheduled arguments. What is to blame for this shooting? The first, and most obvious, answer: the murderer who killed innocent people and took innocent lives. Does a mental illness have anything to do with this situation? Perhaps, but many mentally ill people do not murder (another obvious point). Does access to guns have something to do with the scenario which unfolded? Certainly, though the legal access to guns does not necessarily… people get them illegally all the time.
Perhaps there is something deeper to this situation. Why would this person kill innocent people? Could there be something evil about what happened, or could this person have been evil? If we believe that the actions of someone where evil, then could actions of another person be good? Where does the standard of good and evil even come from?
These answers would have been easier for our Founding Fathers to answer, I believe, or even for the last generation in our country to answer. If we understand there is a standard it is not hard to imagine that someone has made the standard (it doesn’t come from nowhere). There could certainly be a type of ‘cause and effect’ from our decisions to do, or not do, certain things. If we believe there is a god, was more prevalent in our country previously, then why would we hold Him accountable for the action or inaction of people? Perhaps we believe that an all powerful Being, who is supposed to be loving, should suddenly stop all evil… what would this mean? Who be swept away in this early judgement? Is evil only done when it is ‘great’ evil?
Suppose evil could be stopped early without an early judgment of this supposed god… what would that look like. Well, why is there evil today? Because man does evil to man. Only if mankind had no free will to choose evil would it completely stop… otherwise God would wind us all up like robots to be completely controlled by His whim… never having choice to choose good and choose Him (just realized that rhymed, bonus).
The fact that the US has removed the Bible (yes, it was a textbook years ago in Public Schools), the Ten Commandments, public prayer, and even private prayer in some cases from public schools might have something to do with ensuing chaos in our country. It may not be because God is punishing us or even allowing judgment, but it may simply be an easily reasonable relatable issue: when you do not teach consequences for actions, do not enforce rules/laws, and do not teach that there is a God who cares for people enough to give justice to the innocent and to judge evil (even eternally) the people of that society become less respectable… and may even become lawless (perhaps, dare I insinuate, even evil).Tighter gun control was introduced in Australia after the Port Arthur massacre years ago. It became illegal to own semi-automatic weapons because they were considered to cause too much carnage too quickly. With an appropriate gun license a sporting shooter can still own pistols and go shooting in approved venues. Farmers can still own shotguns and rifles. But Australians cannot legally own semi-automatic weapons. There was a lot of complaints when the law was changed, but I think most Australians are happy with our current system. Guns have to be stored in locked gun safes and even family members without an appropriate gun license are not permitted to access them. Without doubt there are still illegal guns on the streets but Australian gun crime statistics are insignificant compared to those in the USA.
I am a sporting shooter but I only aim at targets, not anything that lives. Competitions include moving targets and occasionally I participate in comps with concealed targets etc although I'm actually considering selling my guns and retiring from the sport because this past year I've found it hard to find time to attend the required number of shoots to retain my license.
When I see American gun owners on tv complaining that they don't want to part with their automatic weapons because they need them to protect themselves in case of a home invasion, I wonder just how many people they are expecting to invade their home at one time. And I also wonder why they don't just learn to shoot properly because I find it hard to imagine needing any more than six bullets in a little pistol to defend oneself against a couple of people breaking into a home. I am a woman in my 50s and while I can't imagine ever wanting to shoot someone, if I had to I certainly wouldn't need an automatic weapon to stop an intruder.
On the subject of religion in schools, children have the option of attending one class a week of 'religious studies' and because Australia is a multi-cultural society which religions are represented in each school is determined by the school community. Volunteers come in once a week to conduct the classes. At the beginning of each year the parents fill in a form stating which religious studies class their child should attend … but we also have the option of our children not attending any. They can spend their time in the library or computer room instead. Some schools offer 'Ethics' classes as an option. Of course this is the system in government schools. Private schools run by churches would understandably have more time dedicated to religious studies.
To touch briefly on the passionate viewpoints expressed by everyone who has written before me on this subject, I'd like to encourage you all to read a book I'm currently reading. Some day in the future I'd love to hear what each of you think about “Dead Men's Secrets” by Jonathan Gray. It adds a whole new dimension to the debate and should be of interest to believers and atheists alike. It is certainly interesting food for thought.Sometime I think you and I have much more in common then we have not in common. It seem the only thing we disagree on is this God thing. Peace brother.
Yay!
I had already clicked to follow both of you to see what you write about because from the little I have seen, you both deserve respect. So cool to see evidence of mutual respect between the two of you as well. Now that's what honest, open communication and the freedom to express a personal opinion is all about. Reading this exchange makes the entire world looks just a little bit brighter. Thank you.
@longtimemother : liked your viewpoint in this debate. In India too we used to have a subject 'Moral Science' earlier in schools & for some unknown reason this was discontinued. I can say today that those classes which seemed useless to me as a child, seems very valuable today because those stories that we learnt then are still in my mind & consciousness. This helps ....
It is a wonder to me why ethics and morality are not taught in classrooms of public schools. This is one of the keys to improving society and is a preventative measure for some violent acts.
Two reasons, the first being that for some people it is considered too close to religion. But the far larger reason is because many people who shape policy think or have thought that we need to "reinforce the basics" since American schools are behind most other developed nations in math and science. The other ironic result has been a greater emphasis on sports because it's supposed to teach teamwork and fair play (ask any kid who's gone to school, that's not often the result) and a de-emphasis on the arts, even though they have been shown to help kids feel better adjusted and decrease school violence.
Because Ethics and Morality are subjective. What YOU might consider ethical I would not want taught to MY children and vise versa.
But there are some ethics that are not terribly subjective, like murder and theft. Once those become subjective and are put through the "What YOU consider ethical I wouldn't want taught to MY children" test, then society as a whole is in deep sheep dip.
Theft isn't terribly subjective... until you are starving. Murder isn't terribly subjective...until your child has been molested or until you are being abused every day.
Then we get to define murder... Is abortion murder? Is capital punishment murder? Is euthanasia murder? Is assisted suicide murder? How about animals? Is killing animals murder? If it's wrong to kill people then why do cops get awards for shooting people? Why do soldiers get payed to kill people? Oh? There's a difference between killing people and murder? So sometimes it's okay but it's never okay?....
And the questions go on and on.
But the biggest one (and it WILL be asked) is "Why?" So do you ignore the question? If not then what do you answer it with?.... And then we're back to religion vs. atheism. Because some people are going to want to say "Because God said so."
You want your kids to learn ethics? Teach them ethics. That's kind of what parents are supposed to do anyway. (You being general not specific)No, you don't ignore the question. But if we take you logic to it's, ah, logical conclusion, then we are forced to say that anybody who justifies stealing based on hunger should be given a free pass and it's not all that far from there to kids killing each other for sneakers because hey, they don't get to have such cool sneakers so why should someone else?
Circumstances can give nuance to situations but they do not make ethics subjective.So we can't even agree whether Ethics is subjective or not but you want to teach your version to my kids. Nice.
Actually, Chris Neal pointed out that nuances make a difference, and it seemed you ignored the point… skipping right to your preconceived idea that Ethics are subjective, in perspective. The issue is that there is either a standard that we measure ethics and morals by or there is not. If there is a standard then ethics are not subjective, but if no standard is given (like in our current public school situation) then a subjective standardless society begins to form and you get what we are seeing… no ethical standard… no morality to keep one’s actions in check… no understanding of right, wrong, or even consequences.
Once again... If you don't like the public school system then stop expecting them to raise everyone's kids. The bible says that it's the parent's responsibility... so why would Christians hand that over to someone else anyway?
Not to be argumentative, but aren't you doing the same thing? And isn't that equally as nice?
Frankly, this is devolving into a version of a NIMBY argument, just instead of the back yard it's the classroom. We can't even have a discussion about whether ethics are subjective? It's got to be all or nothing from the word "go?"Not exactly... You may teach your kids whatever you like. You may not teach my children what ever you like. You can teach your children in your home. Where my children are not affected by it. I have yet to figure out how to unteach my children.
So let them learn hard facts in school... things that have nothing to do with morals and ethics... and then teach your children your world views at home. Where it SHOULD be taught.
Saying that some parents don't teach their children ethics is essentially saying "I don't believe your parents taught you the right ethics... here are mine"
And yes it is kind of all or nothing... if ethics are even a little subjective then they are subjective. If there is one case where killing another human being is the right thing to do then there are conceivably a million such cases. You can't tell a child that killing is wrong all the time then say "Except when a soldier shoots someone... or a police officer shoots someone... or a guard pulls a switch.
To Sojourner1234... Please seriously stay away from my children. I don't want them to be "God-fearing". To me having my children living in fear so that they will behave better is sick and twisted. It is in no way teaching them morals or ethics... it is psychologically abusing them until they behave. If I told my kids that if they weren't good I'd set them on fire in a burning pit of brimstone they'd lock me up... and for good reason. I can't even fathom how someone could consider terrifying children as a way to teach anything. It's not ok. And if anyone even attempted to do it to my children I would become quite unethical indeed.MelissaBarrett: You seem to have taken my line of thinking out of context, to a place where you believe ‘fear’ can only be negative. If your children have a fear of running into the road, would you say that is good or bad, positive or negative? If your children have a healthy fear of discipline from authority, like parents or in other circumstances… police, would you say that is healthy or unhealthy? The misunderstanding of fear is not unimportant, because fear is not always of evil or from ‘physiological abuse’. It can be taken to an extreme of course, but it is wise to have fear of those things which can cause discipline or more serious like pain, death, destruction, etc. If someone does not have a ‘fear of God’ that is a critical error indeed.
There is a logical, rational line of thinking when addressing this situation. The earth came into being; if a Theistic God created the world (which proof bears out) then perhaps that God is the God of the Bible (which seems to fit because of the historical/archeological/philosophical evidence); the Bible tells us that God is a loving God, but He is also a just God; His justice will be served out in a judgment to punish those who did not choose His path (to the wicked); this judgment is eternal separation from God as well as a painful endeavor for eternity. The ‘fear of God’ is actually not damaging at all, in fact it makes perfect sense and was understood by our Founding Fathers (who established law based upon Bible scripture and Biblical principles).
The Bible has something to say about the ‘fear of God’: “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; Fools despise wisdom and instruction” (Proverbs 1:7). “Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” (Matthew 10:28). God is the Judge of everything and will justly judge everyone, so people should have a healthy fear of God because of who He is, not because He is evil or will do wrong to them. God is a loving and merciful God, but this love and mercy does not take away His justice.
So, though it would be sick and twisted for you to set your kids on fire, it is wise to warn them of consequences… both present and eternal consequences.Negative. They shouldn't have a fear of running into traffic. They should logically know that is dangerous not irrationally fear cars.
There is no healthy fear of discipline. If my children fear punishment and that is the reason they behave then I have failed as a parent.
Using fear to control someone is pretty much the definition of psychological abuse. I have no fear of God. I don't believe that a deity that needs me to fear him is worth worshiping. I wouldn't stay married to a man who said "Obey me or you'll be sorry" and I wouldn't worship a God who said the same thing.
Yeah... that's psychological abuse. Obey me or never see me again. It's also revenge... not justice. There is not a logical or rational though process there that I can follow. If you do... good on you. I don't see it the same way. So yeah... I don't want that taught to my kids. You see... on the very top of my moral list is "Protect my Children" That's number one with a bullet for me. So yeah... scaring the hell out of them doesn't really jive.
If you believe that then again... run with it... with your OWN kids. I could point out that quite a few of our "founding fathers" had a different view than you think they did but you wouldn't accept the information anyway. So why bother?
I could cherry pick the bible as well for verses that suggest that forcing your religious views on other people is really really bad. Cherry picking is kinda what my religion does... but we just use it to inspire ourselves... not to convince other people to fear anything or that we are right.
But it's not all or nothing because then it literally is nothing. If there is one case, then there are potentially a million cases, and eventually there is not reason for anything. That's exactly where you're going. And that is the thinking that leads to people huddled in their houses, waiting for the agents of subjective ethics and morality (also known as gangbangers) to come invading, raping, pillaging and destroying. Then, suddenly, it's not so subjective.
I disagree... obviously.
Gangbangers are not the agents of subjective morality. Normal merciful and empathetic humans are. Empathetic people realize that we cannot judge a person's morality unless we are in their shoes. Empathy cannot be taught... and it certainly cannot be taught by a rigid "morals and ethics" class. If you cannot feel empathy then you are a sociopath. Religious sociopaths hold up "God hates **** signs" but live by the letter of the Bible. They don't need Jesus... they need meds.It's a huge mistake to equate conservative religion with a lack of empathy. And gangbangers are the agents of a flexible mortality just as surely as they are agents of an unsympathetic fate. A true relationship with God teaches a deeper empathy (if you actually bother to read and apply your Bible) and empathy for your fellow man is in no way mutually exclusive with an objective understanding of morals and ethics. To say that it is, frankly, shows a lack of empathy.
I didn't equate conservative religion with lack of empathy... I showed what a conservative Christian with no empathy looked like. I'm sure that the WB gang all read their bibles and adhere religiously to what they believe it says. Yet I would hardly call them moral and certainly not ethical.
Criminals with no empathy rape and kill. Zealots with no empathy blow up buildings and picket children's funerals.
I've read my bible and I have applied it to my life. Amazingly I get different results from it than you do. You can say that it is because I don't have a true relationship with God if you like... I personally believe that each person gets from the Bible what they were looking for in the first place. If you are looking for love you will find it... if you are looking for hate you will find it there too.
Because... and you are gonna love this... the bible is subjective. It is subjective because no matter who wrote it it varies by who is reading it. It means different things to different people.
That should be fun to sort out for a morality and ethics class.
And I'm not really sure how I got lack of empathy from stating my opinion... but whatever.Yep, I love it all right.
The Bible is not subjective. People apply their own experiences and biases to it, certainly, and people of good will and honest intent can arrive at different conclusions, they do it all the time (Calvin and Arminius come to mind, as do John Wesley and George Whitfield, who disagreed violently yet still respected each other.) But because people have their own interpretations does not mean the Bible can mean whatever people want it to mean.Okay... I'm having a little difficulty with that one. So if people can have their own interpretation and even scholars disagree... How do you propose that it be used to guide an ethical/moral curriculum?
I mean please break it down for me... What specifically do you think should be pulled from the Bible and taught?To illustrate my point I went to http://www.sandersweb.net/bible/verse.php to get a random bible verse.
I got: Proverbs 20:22
22 Do not say, “I will repay evil”;
wait for the Lord, and he will deliver you.
I then Googled that verse.
I got
Do not say, “I’ll pay you back for this wrong!”
Wait for the Lord, and he will avenge you.
from the NIV version
22 Say not thou, I will recompense evil; but wait on the Lord, and he shall save thee.
from the King James Version.
and
Do not say, ‘I will repay evil’;
wait for the Lord, and he will help you.
From the New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition (NRSVACE)
I could have kept going to the other 100 or so versions but I digress.
So... is the Lord going to help me? is he going to save me? Is he going to avenge me? Or will he deliver me?
Help means provide some assistance. Save me means remove me from the problem. Avenge means get revenge for me. Deliver me means remove the problem from me.
Is it a wrong done to me that he's going to save/help/avenge/deliver me from? Or is it evil? There's kind of a difference there. My ex-husband wronged me... but I'm not completely sure he did evil upon me. Is he going to be paid back? Or is God going to demand some sort of repayment from him? They are two different things.
Maybe I should look for an experts opinion.
Lets look at the Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible (Concise)
It says: Wait on the Lord, attend his pleasure, and he will protect thee
Wait. What? Now he's going to protect me... but only if I attend his pleasure? I didn't get that at all from reading that verse on my own. Good thing someone was there to tell me what it meant.
How about John Gill's Exposition of the Bible...
It says: Say not thou, I will recompense evil
With evil; do an injury to one that has done one to you; private revenge is not to be taken, but should be left to God, to whom vengeance belongs,
[but] wait on the Lord, and he shall save thee;
commit thyself and cause to God; leave it with him to avenge thy wrongs; wait upon him in the way of thy duty, and wait his own time to do thee justice; he will at the proper season, and in his own way, save thee from thine enemy, and make a righteous retribution to him.
Wow... that is fairly lengthy... the explaination is three times longer at least than the verse... It says noting about attending God's pleasure. As a matter of fact it really doesn't look like the first commentary at all.
I could go on with this forever... just this one verse. If I haven't made my point by now though... it ain't likely to get made. I would like to know exactly how teaching Children this would work. I mean do we do this for every single verse or does someone pick the REAL meaning. If the first option... fine my children weren't doing anything for the next 80 years or so. If the second I would be very interested in knowing who we give the honor to.All the versions say the same thing, which is a variation of "Vengeance is Mine, says the Lord." If someone does you a wrong, turn the other cheek. God will give final justice at the Day of Judgement.
What you're doing is sitting in a room with a bunch of lawyers while everyone tries to figure out what "is" is. Taking one verse and then parsing it to death and then arguing endlessly over that is missing the point in a big, big way. The Bible is an entire book. You have to read the whole thing.
The devil, on the other hand, loves to parse verses.No... obviously all the versions do not say the same thing.
You can call me the devil all you like but I can read. The verses don't say the same thing...
And the verse said nothing about God saying ANYTHING.
Once again Chris... I HAVE read the whole thing. As a WHOLE I seem to get different things out of it than you.Actually, they do.
A little history always helps. Plus, some knowledge of the original language. The endless parsing is just that, endless parsing, and only really proves that people love to argue.
I'm done.Really Chris... I can read. If a sentence has 3 or 4 different words then it has a different meaning. I pointed that out. You call it "parsing" I call it reading comprehension.
Have a nice day.It's parsing. Words are elastic and the meanings they had 400 years ago when they were translating the KJV don't always mean the same thing today, in 21st Century America.
I'm sorry, I did not mean to attack your comprehension skills. Yes, if they had all been translations from the last 50 years you would be absolutely correct. But let me use this example, the expression "he was making love to me" used in the 1850's would be kind of different from when it was used in 2013.
Seriously, look it up.
So no, it's not a matter of reading comprehension. It's a matter of historical knowledge.In the end God is going to come back and straighten this all out, right? Why can't He just do it now? Then there would be no arguments over what He meant. It does seem that all God wants to do is cause conflict...even between His faithful followers. What a shame!
It's not God that "wants" to cause conflict between anyone. The biggest cause of conflict isn't God, It is the belief or (out of respect and deference to atheists) lack of belief in God that is the cause. I've noticed that Organized religion attacks everyone that doesn't believe as they do because they are so attached to the whole dogmatic , fire and brimstone way of belief of God. They attack Christians (like me) who don't subscribe to that. I don't even pay attention to the king james or other versions of the bible that were partially translated from the original three versions, but mostly interpreted to achieve a specific agenda to cause fear and force conversion. They attack agnostics because agnostics prefer the freedom of not knowing for sure and they attack atheists because they believe that atheists are evil, satan worshipping heathens that are hell-bound for their lack of belief.. on the other hand, a lot of the atheists I've encountered mock Christianity for that exact same reason of the dogmatic beliefs. Atheists live lives free from the tyranny of a God (Which is, in fact, the way Christians are supposed to live: a life of self empowerment).. With the way Christians interpret and use fear tactics when describing God, I understand atheism (especially since the stories are so outlandish). But I still hold to my own personal beliefs (which work best for me).. Hey, To each their own.. The funny thing is that atheists will actually have the access to get into heaven as according to the life they live just like Christians.
The short answer is because He already laid out all the stuff that must happen before He does, and His timetable won't be arranged to suit us.
You ask the question. If you don't want the answer, don't ask. And I treated the question seriously and gave a serious answer. It didn't presume any belief on your part. It does presume a knowledge of the Bible on my part and using that as a basis for the answer.
Chris, With all due respect, you just opened up a major can of worms regarding the face that If God already laid it out then that destroys the idea of free will.
Not really. I know people are just dying for it to be either/or, that if God has laid out a timetable then every tiny little detail is already laid out and why don't we just assume a fatalism like many Muslims do, where they don't even wear their seat belts because whether they live or die is the will of Allah? But the Bible makes clear that events have been foretold.
What you choose to do is exactly that, your choice. It's hard to grasp, but it's true. We are not programmed robots, we are responsible for the choices we make. The Bible makes that clear over and over again. If free will is an illusion, then we are responsible for nothing and laws and morality is a joke and by the way, what's your sister like?
I'm kidding about your sister but I hope you get my point. God has given us free will and He holds us responsible for what we do with it.I got your point.. I was just saying that there may be discussion and argument about the concept of free will when events have already been foretold.
There definitely is discussion and argument. I'm the only one I know how holds my particular point of view. Most of the time the argument goes that along the lines that if events have been foretold (which they have) then free will is a total illusion to which say, no it isn't.
And yeah, I take flak for it.
That depends. How much imagination do you actually have? Can you imagine that things may not be quite as black and white as you think? Because a lot of people can't, and if this forum is any indication neither side has a monopoly on that.
Difficult things are hard to grasp but they do make sense.
Just ask Einstein.Nice. Condescending. Holier-than-thou. Greater understanding. You have more imagination. Beautiful. Very Christian of you.
Bet Jesus is really proud of you. LAWL
I have plenty of imagination. Thanks for asking. Oh wait - you mean - you can imagine stuff that is hard to grasp that I cannot grasp because you have more imagination. Like Einstein did?
Little wonder you guys have caused so many conflicts. Although - as I have said to other aggressive religionists such as yourself, before - I very much doubt you would speak to me that way in person.No, Mark. It was not condescending, or holier-than-thou. It was not meant that way nor was it written that way. I'm sorry that you read it that way, I'd like to think that after all this time you know me better than that.
It was an explanation, pure and simple.Sorry Chris. I know you probably cannot understand because some things are just too difficult for some to comprehend. Just take my word for it. I know these things. Einstein did too. You know?
It's possible to be too clever, Mark. That I understand. What exactly are you trying to say? Because that was not a successful example of turning the tables, if that's what you thought you were doing.
I was pretty sure you would not understand. Don't worry - some things are just hard to comprehend. Einstein knew this also.
It's one thing to suggest something that may be a little tough to understand and another thing to simply use confusion for it's own sake.
Einstein understood that one as well.
Any more clever bon mots you think you can zip over my head?Sorry you don't understand. Is that why you are so angry with me? How much imagination do you actually have? Can you imagine that things may not be quite as black and white as you think? Because a lot of people can't, and if this forum is any indication neither side has a monopoly on that.
Difficult things are hard to grasp but they do make sense.
Just ask Einstein.Ah, you think I'm angry.
Just like you thought I was condescending.
I know you have imagination. It's just what you do with it...
But when you think you have a bone, you certainly are tenacious about it, I'll give you that.You were condescending. As you have been in this post. And you certainly come across as angry. But - I suspect that is beyond your understanding, like many things. Don't let it bother you. Some things are hard to grasp. Just ask Einstein.
No, Mark. I have not been angry and am not now. I'll admit that when I was on that one tear I was having a bad day and I was not handling things well here on this forum. But you asked me if I was having a bad day (which I appreciated) and caused me to step back and evaluate what was happening. But anger is not in any form driving my postings on this forum since then.
Am I condescending? I think about that because I'm certainly capable of it. At the risk of sounding dismissive, I've thought about what I've written. I don't mean any of it to be condescending and if it comes across that way I apologize, but what I'm doing when I write things about imagination is assuming that we're all adults here and can take things as they are. I know you have imagination, Mark. I know you are an intelligent person and do like to help people. I've read some of your other hubs. I also know that you have an ingrained antipathy for religion in general and Christianity specifically, and this would not be the first time that you've taken something I've written as condescending when it was not. But it was truly not meant that way and when I go back and read it, I don't think it was. And that's not an inability to comprehend on my part because I can certainly go back and see where I've handled things badly in different forums.
Free will is a necessary illusion. It's necessary for the reason you gave, but an illusion non the less. I had a long discussion with Headly about this fairly recently and it's not hard to conclude that no matter what your perspective is we can't make any decisions outside of what is natural for humans or Gods will. From my perspective we are just biological creatures no different then any other animal. Meaning our decisions are biological and are the result our biology as humans. If your of the mindset that God gave us the ability to go against his nature then by that very gift God has taken our independence away. God has limited our decisions by not giving us the same powers he himself has. If you assume God is all knowing and all powerful then this also negates our free will. If God is aware of the future then our decision have been already made.
So no matter how you honestly look at free will (from a religious perspective) it's an illusion, but a necessary one.And this response, Chris, is exactly why I said you opened a can of worms
That argument does indeed "prove" the absence of free will in that is pretty effectively robs all alternatives of any room at the table. But it makes a couple of assumptions that I can't really go along with, the first being that humans are simply "biological machines," unable to fight our basic natures and effectively just Clockwork Oranges. Humans are not, what separates us from animals is not merely the relative size of our brain but also our ability to conceptualize and act upon those concepts. To simply cast us as biological constructs is not just to rob us of our humanity on some philosophical level but in a very real sense to say that the evidence that is there doesn't really point what seems obvious.
The second assumption I've covered many times, that God's giving us some glimpses of the future means automatically and irrevocably that He has taken away our free will. While it is true that many big events are written in stone, so to speak, the actions of individual humans are matters of choice. What you choose to do (or what I choose to do) can have consequences for ages, but it is still a moment by moment thing for which we are responsible. God expects us to make the best choices, and that's outline in the Book. We can't do that if we're either "ghosts in the machine" or some cipher written in God's great novel, to be disposed of when we're done and only serving to advance the plot. We matter, and we're important.
That Jesus lived.
That Jesus died.
That He rose again so that we might have everlasting life.
Salvation is a gift.
Those who accept it go to Heaven. Those who don't, don't.
Love your fellow man.
Have compassion on others because God had compassion on you.
Those are the basics. Other things like don't steal and don't kill come from that.
Situations can call for various degrees of sympathy and empathy but once you say "killing is not always wrong" or "stealing is not always wrong" then you open the door to problems.How on earth will that teach anyone ethics?
You cannot prove that God or Jesus exists or existed.
So essentially you believe that telling a child that what could very well be an imaginary diety had what could likely be an imaginary son who may or may not have been crucified and possibly came back to life afterwards is teaching them how to be a good person how?
And then you are asking them to believe it on your word alone or go to hell.
That's not very intellectually honest.
So why would the words of Gandhi not be better? We can actually prove he existed. Or Aesop's fables? They teach lessons.
And finally... Do you honestly think it is "Morally Correct" to teach a child something that their parents have told them is false? Explain why it is ethical to usurp the parents to teach a child something that you cannot prove?
It is actually an integral part of my religion to NOT indoctrinate my children. Tell me where your ethical right comes in to teach them something that violates MY religion? Because you think you are right is not an ethical reason. I've read the whole bible... you aren't going to pull an ethical reason to usurp another's religion and tell children to go against their parent's teaching there either.You have a little trouble staying on topic, don't you? You asked what the Bible teaches, I answer your question, and then you change the question.
Please decide which question you want me to answer, then stick to it.No.. I asked you propose that the bible be used to guide an ethical/moral curriculum?
I asked what specifically you thought should be pulled from the Bible and taught?
You gave me your answer and I gave my opinion on the ability to be taught ethics by that and to prove it's existance. I also asked some very specific questions on the ethicalness of overriding another parent's moral teachings to teach that view...
I stayed on topic... it is you that wandered off.
I never used a personal attack. If you believe I did then please hit the report button below my original post.
I didn't see you make a personal attack either. Chris must be having a bad day.
Which Mark has decided to liven up by doing something to me that he has had fits about when it was done to him.
Way to go, your integrity remains intact Marko.So you are having a bad day then?
You must be, judging from the responses I have seen you make.
I was trying to remember why I accused you of an ad-hominem attack and if I overreacted to something.
Although the actual passage is longer, you basically say that I'm wanting to dictate what kids believe just because I say so and am intentionally being dishonest. That may not be the way you meant it, but I find it hard to read any other way.
Both are not true. I may not always be right, but I strive to be honest. And I don't say that anybody should believe in God just because I say so. I do, of course, teach my kids to believe in God but we all look at it (as far as we can) together and discuss it.
In any case, the original point was not that religion in general or a specific religion should be taught in school, it's that ethics should be taught in school. Society needs to tell people that stealing is wrong and honesty is the best policy. Nuance and extenuating circumstances can certainly be taught and discussed (and should be) but to use those as a basis for saying that all ethics are situational and therefore we shouldn't discuss ethics in school is the proverbial slippery slope. Nor am I just using hyperbole, I once knew a guy who openly used the whole "situational ethics" philosophy (which he didn't understand but certainly liked the sounds of) to justify his selfish actions. Most people kind of do, to some extent. Most people aren't borderline sociopaths, I'm not saying they are. But ethics is definitely a worthwhile subject for schools to teach.
Melissa ...i've been following this argument for a few days & i'm still at a loss to understand why you feel that ethics should not be taught in schools ... 'religion' or 'religious studies' i agree should not be taught in schools as usually everybody thinks that their understanding of religion is better than everybody else's. But ethics has to be universal, isn't it? If we can teach language in school, would it be wrong to teach use of such language to gladden hearts; when we teach history, learning from the lessons of history too could be taught; when we teach geography, learning to respect other cultures could also be taught.... why should these topics not be taught in school especially because school is the perfect training ground where people of different thought processes are there.
No... Ethics is not universal.
Try this to understand... Pick a ethical topic. Any ethical topic. Then state it as an absolute truth with no exceptions.
Is there anyone that would disagree with your conclusion. Is there any situation conceivable that the fits-all answer does not fit?
If one person disagrees and they have children that are in that class then you are teaching their children something different than their parents are teaching. Now... ethically... do you believe that you should have the right to override what a parent wants to teach their children based on YOUR opinion?
MelissaBarrett, to address your previous questions I wanted to answer these inquiries: Then we get to define murder... Is abortion murder? Is capital punishment murder? Is euthanasia murder? Is assisted suicide murder? How about animals? Is killing animals murder? If it's wrong to kill people then why do cops get awards for shooting people? Why do soldiers get payed to kill people? Oh? There's a difference between killing people and murder? So sometimes it's okay but it's never okay?....
Murder is taking an innocent life, generally in a premeditated fashion, and according to The American Heritage Dictionary also: unlawfully and with malice. There is a point though where we identify murder as murder because of an ethical/moral objective standard, or the system breaks down and your questions then become legitimate… what is murder and what is alright? To quickly answer your questions after the words “define murder”: Yes, No, Yes, Yes, N/A, No (though how someone treats an animal can be an indication of how they might eventually treat a person, and if you kill someone else’s animal you should pay for it), because they were defending other people and it was necessary, soldiers are paid to protect and serve the country of origin… if they kill people who were trying to kill them or innocent civilians it can be alright (can be), and yes… there is certainly a difference between killing and murder.So that is why I don't want you teaching an ethics class... Would you want me teaching one?
My answers look a lot different from yours... So it must be ME that's unethical... Right?
This is why ethics cannot be taught in schools. I wouldn't want your opinions on right and wrong poisoning my children's minds... And I'm sure you feel the same.
Of course this is why I teach my own children instead of complaining about other people not doing it right.I will say there is no replacement for parents teaching and modeling the right behavior. However, not everyone has parents who have any type of moral standard, nor teach right behavior (let alone have any idea of what right & wrong are). Not that schools should replace parents or their responsibilities, but could partner with them and compliment the fact that there should be standards by which we live. Whether or not one adheres to a Biblical model of ethics this model is at least a solid standard and was taught in public schools in the U.S. for years. Having God-fearing children, and shaping a God-fearing country, is not only good ethics-wise, but it is the only logical response to a society of violence and situational ethics. To fear God is not negative, like fearing the consequences of running out in front of a bus or disobeying a disciplined parent (who in turn disciplines their children). Knowing there is consequences, even eternal consequences, for actions and understanding how to interact appropriately with others is something that all children should learn… this builds a better society even if one lacks the belief in God or a higher power.
Ratihedge, yes I think it is important for children to develop a social conscience. I am uncomfortable with the way religious studies classes in schools segregate children. I understand it, but I am not comfortable with it,
The more ethics are seen as subjective, the worse society will become= the worse life is, possibly especially for those who seen ethics & morality as objective.
The illustration you made here is exactly the same thing which has happened to prophesy in scripture.
from the time the bible was first assembled.
If the beast that John describes in Rev 13 had its hand in selecting what was accepted into the canon, we could not expect anything else than the confusion which resulted.
When prophesy is misconstrued ... everything is affected.It sounds like this is only part of what he said or whatever is being said. What else did he say? He loves publicity. I wonder does he read Hub Pages?
- jonnycomelatelyposted 12 years ago0
It''s more likely the blind, persistent pushing of the "god" factor, which causes so much distress in people's minds, that is the root cause of so much violence.
If you were to teach young people life skills, resolution of conflicts, survival techniques, how to be in tune with the neighbour, learning to find practical solutions for down-to-earth problems...... instead of falling back on the theoretical, hypocritical nonsense of your belief systems - that would go a long way to sorting out the modern malaise.
IMHOThe interesting thing about your statement of life skills, conflict resolution, survival techniques, in tune with neighbor.. etc is that all of those concepts can be found in the bible's new testament. The issue is that a lot of Organized Christianity basically holds too tightly to the old testament judgment of God dogma teaching.
It could also be found in almost every other religion in the world many of the psychological text books and even some laws. Portions of it can even be seen in herd animal interactions.
So why bring religion into it at all?
The issue is that Christianity should stay in the home and church... or at least out of public schools.There is also the immense problem that God could be imaginary, and that He never said any of that stuff in the Old or New Testament? Since there is ZERO proof of ANY DEITY, whatsoever, it is a safe bet to presume that this was written by nothing more than carbon based life forms...in other words, humans.
The bible is a book written by ancient humans, that modern man allows to control his thoughts, to this day, although the words in it were never written spoken, or inspired by any deity, because there are no deities other than the imaginary ones, and they're only TALKED into existence through the imagination.
In this case, throw the baby out with the bath water. There are certainly other ways to acquire life skills, conflict resolution, and survival techniques.I can agree with that possibility as well.
Getitrite: You make some very presumptuous statements about no proof of any deity. Then you use a circular argument to try and toss out the Bible (because you say there is no proof of any deity, and this supposed truth shows you are right… in your mind).
Ironically, your face-sake (Einstein) is one who helped support proof of a deity inadvertently initially. In his theory of relativity he showed the universe is expanding. He then came up with the cosmological constant to try and stop the expansion evidence in his own equation… that is until Edwin Hubble invited him to see for himself the redshift and the obvious expansion happening, to which Einstein replied, “I now see the necessity of a beginning”.
If there was a beginning of matter, how did matter create itself? We also have much more evidence of an Intelligent Designer, a Creator, a God, who made us all. If we follow the line of rational reasoning (and not toss it out because it the result bothers us), then we can continue that rational in weighing the Bible and its historicity… how accurate is it with evidence we have found? It turns out to be very accurate and has archeological evidence backing its historical accuracy.
So, at this point you should hold onto that baby and start analyzing the facts, not making presumptions based upon pure bias (which is what it seems to me).It's easy for you to see "evidence" to prove your "belief" when that is what you are wanting to see. I submit that you are biased, as we who are atheist are biased.
Whether or not you or anyone can "prove" that the bible is accurate is not important. Even if we all agreed that a "creator" was the inspiration and instigator for our finite universe, you still cannot extrapolate from that a "god" that sits in judgment, as christians try to promote from the bible.
I am open to all manner of ideas and proposals regarding the "Creator." I reject totally the judgmental stuff which is put up for humans to judge other humans. Such an entity is illogical, unhelpful in my life and simply not in tune with my appreciation of life.jonnycomelately: Yes, everyone has a bias, but that does not mean there is no objective evidence or information that can be known about a subject or issue. Actually, proof of the Bible’s accuracy is important, and one can acquire further evidence for a God, as the Bible depicts Him. In the end one cannot fully prove much of anything with 100% accuracy because this type of proof is only available in something fully viewable and observable mathematically (like Geometry). What you can do though is show it is the most viable possibility for the evidence around us. Though, I will say that it eventually does come down to a decision of the heart, not just the head… people can maintain bias in the face of all evidence if they really just don’t want to hear it or know it.
If you are open to a Creator and reject the “judgment stuff” you are missing the point. It is not an option of what I want, or what is convenient to me, that lines up with reality… it’s what does reality say? Then, when you know the truth of the matter you line yourself up with reality… not accepting what you think is ‘logical’ or most ‘helpful’ in your life. By the way, truth will be the most logical conclusion once you can best determine what lines up with reality… it will also certainly be most helpful to be in line with truth as well.And "reality" is only real when we can sense it with our "real" bodies in this finite existence.
It is not "real" when everything you understand is based upon your own belief system. A belief system is what you build up for yourself, in your own mind, because there is no "reality check" for something which you want to support. There can be no validation of what you conjure up in your mind. You can discuss and try to describe what you are thinking, but only with the aid of metaphor and analogy. These then can be reformulated in the mind of the person you are trying to share with. That person says, "Yes, now I see what you mean." But it can never be exactly as you tried to convey, because each of us views your metaphor and analogy differently, influenced by our back grounds, upbringing, negative and positive experiences, apprehensions and comprehensions.
"God" is a case in point. Each and every one of us can have a different imagined sense of what "god" is like; even those metaphors and stories of the bible will be seen and understood in different ways according the reader's presumptions.
Sojourner1234, you want me to see your point of view so as to justify and validate your point of view. People of other religions, especially the monotheistic religions, do the same thing. When I don't agree with your point of view, you bring in the authority of your "god" to judge me and my opinion. You conjure up all manner of "reasons," "proofs," in order to justify your point of view. Then in the last resort you bring in the retribution I am likely to receive if I don't go along with your god's demands.
As I have said to others in these hubs, I have no wish to change your faith, no wish to make you atheist in your understanding. That is entirely your business. However, when you stand aloof and tell me that I am a sinner who is heading for judgment and punishment if I don't take your beliefs on board, then I say STOP. It's not your prerogative. Nor can you use a book of ancient writings to pressure my views. You have no authority except that which you construct for your self.
Bringing this comment back to the main topic of this Thread, to indoctrinate children, during the formative years, with religious prejudice is, in my view, evil in essence.Jonnycomelately: You said: “Sojourner1234, you want me to see your point of view so as to justify and validate your point of view.” It seems I could certainly say the same for you. Also, I do not need to justify or validate my point of view at all, though I think it wise to share my point of view because it lines up with truth. I have lived this perspective and it has been validated in my life time and again… I have seen, experienced, read about it, lived it, and have known the result.
I seem to have side-stepped the basic issue I brought up, that there is a real reality that is objective and can be known whether you want to believe it or not. There is evidence that is not conjured up… these ‘reasons’ & ‘proofs’ are not to justify my perspective, they are to help others understand what is real… to set them free of their prisons of self-deception and excuses for denying truth.
At this point, I don’t need to say anything about you being a sinner and heading for judgment, haven’t done it hear either. The authority I have is also mine, it is given… but you don’t have to abide by or listen to my perspective if you don’t want to. Just know that ignoring the fact that one perspective lines up better with reality than others is simply a true reality.I don't need you to see my point of view as regards any "belief" or understanding I might have regarding god, after-death, etc. Only to allow me to have that view without calling it erroneous in any way. Because if you do say I am erroneous in having such a view, that automatically presents your view as being superior to mine.
For me, the importance of this principle, in practice, is that religion in so many of its forms tends to limit and control my thinking and activity. I am saying that your religion, and that of any other persuasion, has no right to impose such a demand on my intellect and understanding.... It is possible for you to be as erroneous in your understanding as it is for me in my understanding.
Each of us is totally free to explore the possibilities to our own satisfaction.However, we can and should follow the logic and evidence where it leads. It’s not that my ‘religion’ is right because I believe it is, it is that the evidence and logical conclusions shows it to be the closest thing to reality known to mankind. If we are unwilling to follow evidence and logical conclusions then we will not find truth, and isn’t that part of what life should be about for everyone? If there truly is a god, and perhaps it is the God of the Bible (& of Christianity), then should we not teach truth in schools? Our Founding Fathers made their perspective clear by setting our foundations upon Christian principles and making the Bible a textbook in public schools. Our culture has simply gone away from those practices and pursued their own perspectives, giving them focus whether or not there was any reality behind those perspectives. We often hear, ‘what’s true for you is not necessarily true for me, I have to find my own truth/reality/way of life’. Well, the simple fact is that there is truth and we must align ourselves to reality, because there are not many realities and many answers to life’s question of ‘how did we get here?’… so, again, my pursuit is truth, and to for our culture to align itself with reality.
Sourjourner and Johnnycomelately,
In some way when we choose a religion or a political belief or any stance, aren't we saying that the other beliefs are wrong in some way? I know it is politically correct to say that a belief is "right for me.", but there has to be a so called "winner" and "loser" in that choice.And yet - when I 'follow evidence' and logical conclusions, based upon the physical world around me, you say that is not truth?
Sir, you are confusing what satisfies your mind to appear as evidence, with the reality of this physical world, as evidenced by our faculties. The mind will do anything we want it to.
Spikology is getting closer to the truth..... but I disagree that either has to be a winner or loser. We can both be winners if I don't try to convince you, absolutely, of my side of the argument, and if you don't try to convince me of yours.
If you were to teach the children in school that we all have individual choices, and that we can live side-by-side with the differences, then that in itself could lead us to a better world. It''s probably better to wait until the children are at least teenagers before we confront them with these choices. However, to pile into the younger children's formative minds a lot of biased and dogmatic nonsense, based upon the teacher's ego, is a very bad thing and more likely to breed discord in their later lives.
Don't you think this can be so?Johnny,
You are right because in the end we believe what we want to believe.
As for winners and losers. I didn't mean as individuals, although I see how it can be taken like that. I meant we can only choose one belief, per se.
We all win as long as our choice makes our life better.
Unless you've got some new information, I suggest you stop making knee-jerk claims, based upon your indoctrinated delusion. Let's see your grand evidence.
And what does that have to do with evidence of a CREATOR? You have nothing here but conjecture...and conjecture is not proof of anything.
Apparently your silly God can create itself. Could you explain that? Thanks.
You have either been woefully misinformed, or there is a severe comprehension problem.
Of course it's all according to what you mean by the term "analyze" You apparently have an extremely distorted definition of the word.
There are those of us who know first-hand that God exists. We can't prove it to you, but that doesn't mean we're wrong.
That is the reason religion shouldn't be taught in school.
This is something I agree with. Personal principles should never be taught in a classroom. It's too easily swayed by bias
A lot of personal principles should be kept in the home but not God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I disagree. There are too many other religions represented these days for us to push only one on them all. For us to do so would be to disregard and dismiss all other peoples and their beliefs which are also ones we should be reaching by inclusion, not exclusion. Christianity is supposed to be an all inclusive religion, but there are too many people that seek to make it exclusionary. And most Christians wonder why people shun the God we serve? It doesn't have as much to do with fairy tales, myths, "sky fairies", or anything like that. It's just that a lot of Christians push God on others so hard that when they question or fight back they are threatened or "warned" about Hell and then told they are lost.
Ok, then, can we say that the "god" of some christians is so weak, that they are afraid of losing "him" and therefore need to defend "him" to such extremes?
If their "god" was as strong as they make out, then that omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent power would not need defending by such insignificant and weak human minds.
Instead, their lives would be such wonderful, rich, humble, all-encompassing, patient, kind, honest and lovable examples, that we would all want to be like them! (Someone, please extend the list of superlatives for me. I want to recognize the truly authentic Christian.)exactly. God doesn't need defending and we are supposed to live the way you described
There is only one God ,since the beginning of time there has only been one God the creator of all, and when people use the term gods, or there god it's not right, I agree that a lot of christians try to push it down peoples throat and it makes people defensive and thats wrong too you never want to push others away from god you just want to plant the seed for them to grow. I went to a church once and the people were acting crazy and it scared me they was making me sweat and I just wanted to get away, but now I read the bible and find out who God is and all of the great stories thats in there. Now i'm not afraid anymore. Religion is different all over the world and it causes hate, and if you are full of hate life isn't fun, you should be able to pray in school if you want, and if you don't then you don't have too, but reguardless weather or not there is prayer in school you can pray with out anyone knowing.
It's like no one even notices me here. Should I believe the reason for this is too strong of an argument?
Nope... You are doing the same thing as the OP... as wilderness (Oh how I love thee) pointed out... you are speaking of "facts" in a different language as those who are devoutly and fundamentally religious. If you are expecting to change anyone's faith by posting a dictionary definition on an internet forum then you have a belief that exists despite superior evidence to the contrary.
If you are doing it for your own amusement or education then good on you. If you are actually looking to change convictions- then good luck with that. Let me know how it works out for you.Well, I went back and read what you were writing. Too strong of an argument? Only when you're preaching to the choir!
Seriously, equating religion with mental illness is not an argument. Insulting people is not, in and of itself, the same thing as an intellectual position and it amazes me how many people (on both sides) seem to think that their arguments are so self-evident that no amount of hyperbole and denigration goes unjustified.Theres no need to argue about things, everyone has different beliefs, talking about religion is like talking about politics. I have m beliefs and you have yours no one can win, so why argue?
But again, the point was not religion, it was ethics.
Chris, would you recommend that schools teach two separate subjects?
I.e., 1. Religion (to include christianity). 2. Ethics.
In other words, neither necessarily includes the other?You are smart enough and you (should) know that I'm smart enough to know that you can't teach a religion class without some application of ethics according to that religion. You can teach something like a comparative religions class (which I don't believe should necessarily be taught to six and seven year olds) where you can talk about the differing and similar ethics of different religions.
Ethics would be about what is fair and doesn't have to be religiously based. Unless you're aim is to confuse kids, it should be possible to teach kids about what is right and fair and and ethical and honest. That is about societal values.
I'd like to see you present this same nonsensical premise in a court of law. Maybe you can't see yourself as WRONG, but it would be determined that your testimony is false.
I don't have to go to a court of law , if everything has to make since to you then I feel sorry for you, but I have seen Gods work in peoples lives I saw a pregnant woman dying with brain cancer the doctors told her she would die if she gave birth and her child as well, and this woman gave birth to a healthy baby girl, and every bit of her cancer went away and she has been cancer free for 10 years without chemo, or treatment of any kind, can you explain that to me? The nations top doctors couldn't explain it .
There we go. More claims of miracles, but no supporting documents or even names for that matter.
That person i was talking about was my sister, everybody wants proof that miracles happen, that's lack of faith, have more faith and you will see things in a different light, if you have every been at the point in your life where there was no hope you would understand what i'm talking about, you just can't understand and I don't hold that against anybody.
Of course I understand, I've seen and watched many people die. Three from cancer in the last few years. I've seen what cancer does. Please supply the case studies so we can see them for ourselves. It's not that I don't trust you it's that I don't know you and therefore don't trust you.
I'm glad you understand, can you now direct us to any evidence?
Well - the "nation's top doctors," witness this so you have to think they kept the evidence.
Of course, there is another alternative which we are familiar with.
That's not lack of faith! It is a natural survival trait to discern deception and truth, otherwise we would all, most likely succumb to any trickery...which could result in harm or death.
I was on my death bed for over a week just waiting to die. Some people have said it was a miracle that I survived, but I know better. Being of sound mind, it makes no sense to embrace whimsical childish concepts, when there are other explanation that are based in reality.Why on Earth would I tell myself something else, when logic dictates the most reasonable explanation? Sorry that you have the need to believe in these ancient myths. But if it is what you use to explain life, then you will probably always live your life through what some of us view as fairy tales, with magic, of course...
Peace
Please don't feel sorry for me, as I am lucid and free of psychosis. You should feel sorry for those adults who believe in delusional, primitive fairy tales, written by, long dead, savage goat herders.
To conclude that your imaginary God, somehow was involved in any of this is surely psychotic, since He can't even feed the starving children of Africa. Just how could such an impotent God do any of these grand activities you speak of? This is absurd.
I don't have to go to a court of law , if everything has to make since to you then I feel sorry for you, but I have seen Gods work in peoples lives I saw a pregnant woman dying with brain cancer the doctors told her she would die if she gave birth and her child as well, and this woman gave birth to a healthy baby girl, and every bit of her cancer went away and she has been cancer free for 10 years without chemo, or treatment of any kind, can you explain that to me? The nations top doctors couldn't explain it .
I wonder if those children who were murdered were asking God for mercy yet they perished anyway. What does that tell you?
The entire debate is whether the Bible should be taught as fact in schools. Not your personal beliefs as to the reasons why doctors get things wrong on occasion.That is wonderful. At last - we have proof. Where did the doctors publish the case study? I feel certain it was well documented. Show me please.
The legal system gets things wrong too. Hence why a lot of innocent people get locked up and the guilty go free
You have presented a strawman argument. No one is talking about the outcomes of specific cases. I'm talking about the procedure of law.
In the legal system individual testimonies aren't held to proof or non-proof and have no requirement to be proven or not. There are no "false" testimonies.
Unless you are talking about perjury...
And she would not be found guilty of it in an American court if she made the same claims under oath.The operative word is "knowingly"
Of course a brain washed person doesn't "know" that their testimony is a LIE.There is a minor distinction between a non-fact and a lie.
You can prove a lie... you can't prove a non-fact.Then, by default, I guess fairy tales are to be given the same status as a non fact.
If you can't prove that they didn't happen... then yes they are a non-fact.
So?A concise response-to be sure-but it doesn't really answer my question.
So?
Or more precisely...
So what?I wonder why Andrea Yates was found culpable in the deaths of her children. I mean, she wasn't lying when she said God told her to kill her children. And no one should question God. Why did this jury decide to go out on a limb, and question God? maybe there is, sometimes, something called reality...that everyone, deep down, understands.
She was found not guilty by reason of insanity in other words not responsible for her actions.
But whether insane or not...what if God did tell her to do it? Do you have proof that God did not tell her to do it? This could be another miscarriage of justice.
So?
If God did tell her to do it and she was found guilty then it is a miscarriage of justice.
The jury convicted her. The justice system worked as designed. Mistakes happen in even the best designed judicial system.
What again is your issue?
Edit: It really wouldn't be a miscarriage of justice anyway. If God told her to do it... even literally... it is still her choice to obey or not. Therefor she is still responsible for her actions.
The procedure of law is what ultimately produces this "straw man". both sides present evidence. Just because one set of evidence sounds better than the other, case closed.. The other side is wrong or has given incorrect testimony
I guess that's logically correct. That's our system.
Assumptions are the basis of false ideologies, whether it's the arrogant and condescending statement that anyone who doesn't believe in God is deficient and immoral or the arrogant and condescending statement that anyone who does believe in God is deficient and immoral.
I think that it is kinda like this.
There is a simple truth which can be expressed in 20 words or less. But it takes 50 million words to depict how we come to this conclusion of 20 words or less. Unfortunately ... attention deficit disorder kicks in long before we decipher 1% of the 50 million word explanation.
Fact is, that if we knew the answer (in a nut shell) nothing would ever be the same.
If we had "THE" answer, we would spend the rest of our life attempting to lose it.
"The answer is/was in Pandora’s Box. Nothing is as it appears to be.Religion is a state of mind. Merely a psychological sickness, where the belief of a person overrides his ability to think straight.
Religion was created to control the mass-audience, much like today's marketing strategies are made.
Religion has ensured that we are at least a hundred years behind in our development as a spicies, because early scientist and alchemist were burned alive, because they simply stated a fact ( the Earth is round and not flat )
Religion has ensured the death of thousand, because of mass-control (9 crusades)
Religion is making people turn on each other, because of their beliefs. If religions were created to ensure the peace and harmony of humanity, there wouldn't be lines in the Bible and the Quran like "god is one and you should respect and believe only in him"
Religion is plagirized from earlier civilizations. Don't believe me? Check out this http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum … 635868/pg1 ...
Moreover The Bible copies the Pol Pol Vuh (The Mayan Holy Book).
Did you know that the words Holy and Allah ( two different religions - Christianity (The Holy Spirit) and Islam (Allah) ) come from a word mentioned in the Mayan Holy book - Pol Pol Vuh?
The word is Khallialla (read Hali (Holy) and Alla (Allah) )
Did you know that because of religion archeology nowadays is making incorrect statemens?
Because muslim believe that humanity didn't existed before 5600-something B.C. facts about earlier civilizations are being ommited. Facts that can explain a lot of mysteries regarding the Pyramids in Giza, The Sphinx and The Secret Room of Knowledge of the Egyptian God Thor.
Yes, the aforementioned statements are all facts. Can you have something to say about that?Holy Book of Ivan [2:459] And there was no answer from the "believers;" and then the debate of wether religion is good or not was closed. Amen!
It worked out to a point where I will be writing an article about the exsitance of God ...
...
Poor me, I shouldn't have expressed my view on the subject, while my "give me a topic" challenge was still avaible ...
However, I believe the article will blow minds up ... I am really looking forward to posting it ... It will probably happen tomorrow as in Bulgaria (where I live .. ) is 5 A.M. and I should go to sleepHere is a quote from a story about the horrific shooting in Albuquerque:
"Greg Griego was the chaplain for the Albuquerque Fire Department and involved in several prison ministries."
Greg was the boy's father. Clearly God was in the home; yet this happened....The beauty (and the horror) of fictitious beliefs is that one never has to be accountable. Adam Lanza shoots up a school and it's because of an absence of God in schools and because of violent videogames. So what do you do with Nehemiah Griego, a home schooled Pastors' Kid who didn't play videogames, who shot and killed his mom, dad, brother (9) and sisters (5 & 2)? Easy, its the work of the Devil, another imaginary creature, and it is a reason that we all just have to pray even harder.
Will a single true believer even for a second consider that the pressure cooker of a God-only world this kid was forced to live in may have been the problem? Doubtful, but then that is the point of an unchallengable belief system isn't it?
It was bizarre looking through Facebook profiles of friends of the Griego family. It was surprising how homogenous their beliefs seemed to be. Almost without fail, every single one of them liked Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan (sometimes Herman Caine), had some sort of post talking about how terrible Obama is/was, had a bible quote as their favorite quote, and had some sort of strong pro-gun stance. One man, a good friend of the father, had a post lamenting the loss of his friend, and immediately below it, an advertisement for a competition to win a free gun.
Yet, here I am, non-Christian and a pacifist (and a videogame player) and I'm somehow the problem, because of some low-brained belief that I can't possibly know right from wrong without reading it out of a book and because I have no desire to go around shooting people to death (even if they are 'bad guys').but you never said that you didn't believe, there is nothing wrong with guns it's the people behind the guns. Video games have different affects on different people.
There will alway be people who lose it and look to do damage. Taking the assault weapon away would prevent this kind of horror.
not totally.. people will just change the weapon.
After what I've said about assault weapons (which I stand by, I don't see the need to have them in a home and think it invites more trouble than it could ever prevent) I do have to say I wonder if these kids would still find a way to kill people. If I remember correctly, the school shooting in Kentucky was with a hunting rifle.
Sure they could, but that would take planning and sometimes these things happen from anger. This would never have happened if this lady didn't have guns in her house.
Purely as an intellectual exercise, I have to wonder. True, he couldn't have done the damage he did if not for the assault weapons, but he still might have killed someone (I'm thinking Lorri Wade, who was played by Valerie Bertinelli in a tv movie.)
You only need to save one life to make a difference. Would he have walked into the school with a knife knowing he would have a painful time killing himself?
Good point. Unfortunately it is only an intellectual exercise, because he did kill all those people. That makes me sad.
I agree it is the people behind the guns. Newtown (improperly secured weapon), Griego slaughter (improperly secured weapon), Webster shooting (straw buyer), Virginia Tech (should have been barred by mental health status), Clackamas (improperly secured weapon), etc.
And it isn't just that physical storage of weapons is the problem, it is in part the gun culture itself. Believing that the violence of guns is a legitimate way of dealing with life, believing that guns are cool (there are a disturbingly large number of photos out there of people posing with a gun to look cool), macho baloney (i.e. the guys (and some gals) having gungasms whilst stroking their pistol), and a belief in an us vs. them world. The hostility that comes out of this group for Obama and liberals is problematic. Look at, for instance, James Yeager (CEO of Tactical Response, a firearms training organization) who suggested he would start shooting people if gun control went any further.
Responsible gun-owners will say that guys like James Yeager don't speak for them, but if that's the case, than who does? Responsible gun owners should be as opposed to irresponsible gun-owners as are the rest of us, and yet the only pro-gun voices out there seem to be groups like the NRA who universally oppose any and all restrictions and regulations.
Simply put, there are far too many people who have no business possessing firearms. One's right to bear arms (if we even agree on it) does not give one a right to endanger the public through irresponsible ownership. If gun-owners have nothing to say about cleaning up their own house, than they will more than likely find it cleaned for them. Personally, I am rapidly losing sympathy for them.
- eastbaycoposted 12 years ago0
I always enjoyed Hubpages because the people support each other, unlike some random chat room where people troll to pick a fight. But this is the worst discussion since I have been here. I understand everyone has different opinions, but that can be expressed without being disrespectful to others.
I am a Christian and I don't appreciate people saying it is for idiots and God would not let innocent children die. You can get your point across without insulting others. Try to be a little open minded. And I find it funny that when people down religions, they only talk about Christianity. Why not pick on Muslims or Buddists or Hindus for a while?
If you are an atheist, I find it hard to believe that if someone expresses their belief in God, you should feel insulted. Why? You don't believe in anything, so how are you offended?
If you want to trash others, I hear Yahoo! Comments is a great place for you to go.I think that people "pick" on Christians and not other religions because Christianity is the dominant culture in America and its more devout followers are aggresively attempting to have their beliefs (such as the Creation) taught as fact.
You could have just scrolled past this forum.
No one said you were an idiot, however your beliefs are clearly idiotic. Case in point: God will cure my cold but allow innocent children to be gunned down, or starved to death. That's IDIOTIC!
.
If you were a Muslim or Hindu, I would say the same thing about your beliefs. They are all pure rubbish.
It is insulting to the intellect for you to assert such nonsense as truth, then expect everyone to just ignore your clearly delusional assertions.Why do you hate so much? That is what I don't understand. Maybe that says a lot of your lack of belief. If you found Jesus, you might have some peace. I will pray for you.
I think he hates because of statements like that.
Do you often use "praying for someone" as a synonym for "I'm holier than you and you are so pitiful that I must perform a religious ritual on you against your will"?Do you not realize how horribly offensive that statement can be to someone not of your faith?
How would you like it if a Satanist told you he was going to sacrifice a cat in hopes that you would follow the dark lord?He has no idea Melissa... he can't keep up with the point of the thread and then offers to talk simpler to me.
I wouldn't care, but I think the cat would. Plus, I think killing a cat is illegal. The point is I have been to the home of someone of another religion and when they prayed a muslim prayer, it didnt' offend me. Why would someone elses religion offend me, that is what I don't understand. We are all different in this world, so we have to be tolerant.
So - your god doesn't burn unbelievers any more like the bible says?
Why should we be tolerant of idiotic beliefs anyway?If you were tolerant then you wouldn't say a prayer for someone against their will.
He obviously abhors all things religious... so being tolerant in this case is to respect his NON religion by not using yours on him without his permission.No only you have to be tolerant, they can be as intolerant as they want, its the atheist way.
No. The hate comes from your mind numbing, insulting beliefs.
Of course, in reality, I hope you have the maturity to discern that fairy tales are for children.getitrite. I think anyone who read your posts would get a clear view of hate and intolerance and how Jesus could improve your life. You have a lot of anger towards Christians, for some reason, maybe trauma from your childhood, but nonetheless, you stand for everything a real Christian is not. Intolerant. I invite you to go to church with me if you get a chance.
Been there done that. Determined it to be all garbage. I actually feel sorry for believers who can't defy authority when they willfully lie to you. Like sheep to the slaughter.
I glanced over some of your article titles. It seems like you are on a crusade against Christianity. Maybe if you put that focus on something positive instead of negative, you could make a real difference in someones life. Say something positive and maybe all of that hate inside of you could find some release.
Actually I am on a crusade against nonsense. Thanks for visiting though.
I am positive. I am trying my best to decrease ignorance, as founding father Sam Adams warned "An ignorant people cannot remain a free people.”
Angry???Let me ask you this. Do you think President Obama has idiotic beliefs? He is a Christian.
People in General think President Obama has idiotic beliefs, but that has nothing to do with his religion
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A lot of people would argue that he isn't because things are still screwed up and even more according to some people
Actually... many delusional individuals can function quite well in society. If their delusion is unaffected by their surroundings and vice/versa. It is only when something threatens their delusion that they become hostile/irrational.
Functioning and running a country are vastly different
*Shrugs* If you say so. I do believe that Reagan was well into the beginning stages of Alzheimer's while he was president.
Edit: In addition... there is Christian and then there is so Christian you are incapacitated by it.
I personally believe that Obama is a closet atheist. But he understands that he must pretend to embraced these idiotic beliefs in order to achieve, and remain in power. Anything else would be political suicide. When was the last time you saw an openly atheist president?
Lol. I love the way you convince yourself to believe things! You are the man. "Closet atheist" I am beginning to like you. You just made my day with that one!
Before you get too tickled, I am keenly aware that you are not really informed, and can't understand that one has to read between the lines of what a closeted person says:
This is a comment from Obama 6/28/06:
“Should we go with Leviticus which suggests slavery is okay and eating shellfish is an abomination? Or we could go with Deuteronomy, which suggests stoning your child if he strays from the faith. Or should we just stick to the Sermon on the Mount, a passage that is so radical that it’s doubtful that even our own defense department would survive its application.”
Does this sound like an illogical believer to you? Obama is highly intelligent, therefore it is hard to fathom that he could, truthfully, believe such nonsense as the rank and file....I looked up the Sermon on the Mount and have no idea what Obama is talking about.
No Idea? How many follow At Matthew 5:29 or Matthew 5:40? If your vision is leading you to adultery, then you should remove your eye. If you're sued, you should not fight, but rather give up more than was asked for.
Come on...you ought to know Matthew 5:29 is not literal.
I believe Matthew 5:40 was about not seeking revenge. The first thing we do is when we have been disrespected is to retaliation and that may fuel contention because it is ego-driven. If you don't resort to their level it may make them think about their behaviour.It's interesting how You get to decide what is literal and what is not.
Well, actually I came to that conclusion by research I did. Can you give me an example of a biblical scholar who believes otherwise?
More than we want it to be and less than we realize it to be at times
Unless we want it to be more literal than it is.
Well, that's for you to discern. However, without the guidance of the Holy Spirit that would seem impossible.
I'm thinking that the Defense Department should turn the other cheek, and let aggressors slap them on both sides if they go by the passage in the Sermon.
And with that reply I leave you to your own devices.
Whatever happens and whatever the atheists call you you have brought on yourself.
I'll go be a REAL Christian elsewhere. You can be your breed of Christian all on your own. I wouldn't scream persecution too loud though... as the response to your comments really can be traced back to your comments.Of course he brought it on himself praying for others is a horrible thing, especially when doing it against their will.
I have not said anything negative, which is the point. I have not said anyone was dumb for believing anything. I am a positive person.
Better keep that positivity to yourself, that dog don't hunt round here.
You keep on thinking that sparky.
You have been incredibly offensive. Yet you seem to lack the empathy to put yourself in anyone else's shoes to see it. You believe you are correct- and you will get feedback saying you are... but only from those who agreed with you in the first place.
You have earned what was given to you... it's not persecution of your religion anymore (if it ever was) it is people being offended by you directly.How have I been offensive, but someone calling Christians idiots, not? I have been only positive and actually tried to open dialogue on what I feel about being called names. No one likes to be called names, right? We are all taught that from a young age that it is wrong.
What I have said from the beginning is you can disagree with someone and not call them names or be disrespectful. And I have been respectful.
I have never pushed my beliefs on anyone, I only asked that this discussion should be about respect of others opinions because it was turning into a Yahoo! Chatroom with people instigating arguments by callling others names.I tried to point out one instance when you were being offensive. You told me I was making things up. You offered to speak more simply for another poster and then you passed your "Real Christian" thing.
I could pick others but if you won't acknowledge the ones I've already pointed out what would be the point?I did't say you made it up. I ASKED if you make it up.
What do you mean by passing my "Real Christian" thing and what does that have to do with saying I will make things simpler. I have not judged one person here. I did say they should be respectful to others and not call names.
As for the simpler thing, I got aggrivated when he didn't understand me.
*** DISCLAIMER*** The views presented here do not reflect the views of all Christians.. With that being said, eastbay, I personally don't think you have been totally disrespectful in some of the views you have presented. Melissa was merely stating that for someone that doesn't believe in God for you to say you are praying for them is offensive.. Furthermore, To state that someone is full of hate because they offer an opinion on someone's beliefs (Getitrite only speaks about beliefs, not the people) is presumptuous and offensive in itself because some people cannot see where their own comments are offensive (sometimes not even me) because these are their own thoughts..
With that being said, I also leave you open to Getitrite, Mark, and other atheists that will be picking you apart.My life is too good. They can't pick me apart!
But you can't be serious and say he has talked about the beliefs and not the person. To call someone dillusional and other things he said about people. He can get his point across without putting people down.delusion - an idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument.
He hasn't proactively spoken about others. Ht has however retaliated against others who have attacked him. That's basic human nature on a fundamental level. No different than you defending yourself if someone were to attack you.
I made a general post asking that if you want a respectful debate, stop the name calling, which he replied to me. I had no clue who he was until then, I only made a general comment that name calling is unusual on Hubpages. He replied that he is not saying I am an idiot, but my ideas are. That is disrespectful and it is calling me an idiot. I never attacked him.
I can understand your point of view. That was offensive to you and an attack. I respect that. I was merely just saying that his comments should not be taken as him being full of hate because they are strong to you
Maybe you should change your setting to chronological instead of thread, because you responded right under my post. That's why I thought your comment was directed at me. BTW, you are outright asserting that I called you an idiot, but calling your beliefs idiotic is not the same as calling you an idiot. You only perceive it that way, because you not separating yourself from your beliefs.
You know, I heard something yesterday which may change the way I engage in dialogue with those who believe differently from me, and something you said in this post reinforced it.
You talk about not separating ourselves from our beliefs. In a reasoned discussion, we sort of have to do just that. Not doing so is what leads us to name calling, taking every disagreement as personal attack, etc.
It was brought to my attention that reasonable people may hold unreasonable, irrational, dangerous, and/or destructive ideas. It's the internalization of those ideas without objective scrutiny on their part that is the problem.
I've always considered myself a reasonable, sane, intelligent, and teachable person. But even possessing all of those qualities doesn't mean that I might not hold some ideas that bear further scrutiny. I think that's the best thing about having become friendly in this venue with so many who believe differently than I do. It's driven me to put my beliefs under closer scrutiny and understand what it is I'm trying to discuss on a much deeper level than I may have before.
Thanks for that.
I believe there is more at play here then what might initially appear. You and a few others Christians appear highly intelligent, educated, stable and articulate, but as with atheists those qualities are not universal.
Thanks Rad. You and a lot of other atheists here are intelligent as well and you have been respectful to me (for the most part.. the rest of it has been when stuff boils over...LOL). But I have a lot of respect for you all. That's why I try to take up for you guys too. I try to be as objective as possible with some consideration for your beliefs (or lack thereof)
From what I've gathered from Getitrite, he doesn't seem hateful to me. It just offends him to the highest degree that people would present their arguments as facts then attack him when he calls those arguments silly. That's not hate. That's defense against what he feels are attacks against him.
We may not agree on some things, but I respect him a lot and his hubs are pretty clear and concise without promoting hate, just why certain concepts are silly to himHe has clearly been hateful and has called arguments more than silly. Saying religious people have "delusions" and lack of "comprehension". These are things that if you said it to someones face, you could get smacked, but he knows he can get away with it hiding behind a computer. I really feel sorry for him because he spends his time hating what others do instead of living and let live. Where does he draw the line? The color of someones skin? Their gender? I don't think he has a line.
That is speaking only about arguments, not people.. Once again, I am bowing out of this one. We tried to warn you.
He does draw a line.. or at least he has with me. He is strong with his ideals and responses, but he does have a line that he hasn't crossed (with me).
That's because you, and a few other believers, are not totally ensconced in the herd mentality...
Now you claim you believe him to be a racist and a sexist? Someone is crossing the line alright.
I only asked where does he draw the line. He has given no evidence of the above mentioned.
Maybe not, But by adding those two points, they give the implication that you were saying that he is racist and sexist.
You have given no evidence of not being a racist or sexist, but we give you the benefit of the doubt anyway and certainly don't make implications.
He didn't say that at all. Could it be you are starting conflict to just start conflict?
Dude, look at my very first post way at the top. You need to do research before you say someone is lying. It's in plain black and white.
"No one said you were an idiot, however your beliefs are clearly idiotic. Case in point: God will cure my cold but allow innocent children to be gunned down, or starved to death. That's IDIOTIC!"
His words to me.Wow! Sometimes people seem way too emotional attached to their beliefs. No objectivity whatsoever.
Then if you have evidence of your beliefs, please show me. If you can't show me anything but an ancient holy book, that you think is sacred, then there is no other conclusion that I can draw, except that this is a delusion.
I think this macho stance is totally uncalled for. You have no idea who I am, and what I would say to anyone's face...and before anyone should just haul off and smack someone, it would be a good thing if they knew if that person spent six years in the U.S. Marine Corps...graduating in the top ten percent of his class at Parris Island. Just saying!
Please! I don't need this useless patronizing!I don't have to prove anything. I am not trying to convince YOU to be any other way. Actually quite the contrary. I came on here to say to all those that are using that kind of hate language, that just because we have different points of views, doesn't mean you should be disrespectful of others and call others names or belittle their beliefs.
As for the macho thing. It is bad manners say the things you say to someones face. That's my point, but you focused on the smacking (of course you would focus on the negative.)
*Edit - BTW; Just so those that think they will say whatever they want to others just because they were in the Marines and think they are tough. Some people don't care if others were in the Marines. They will stand up for their self respect and not let others say what they want to their face.Again, I have observed your beliefs, and found them to make almost no sense at all. And now it seems that you are demanding that we ignore the 5 ton elephant in the room, just so it doesn't hurt the feelings of the people holding such illogical beliefs. If you don't want your beliefs challenged this way , then acquire more logical beliefs.
I'm not even going to comment on this,This will be my last post on this because I have a lot of things to do that are more important. The fact is that you are a phony wanna be hiding behind a picture of Einstein to give people the impression that you are intelligent, but your words show otherwise. I read earlier posts from you where blcurry ate your lunch and in the end you just threw a temper tantrum, took your ball, and went home.
All througout this discussion you have asked people to show you proof and that a book doesn't count. If that is the case, then you don't believe anything unless you have firsthand knowledge i.e. History didn't happen, science is a fake, math is just made up. I have news for you Flash; We all learn from books, but in your irrational mind, history started on the day you became conscious of the world. The world does not revolve around you. Get a clue and stop going around sounding like a clown.Maybe I misread, but isn't this (attacking and disrespecting, name calling, etc) exactly what you came on here speaking AGAINST?
Yes... it did indeed cross into a personal attack. A rather hypocritical personal attack.
Since he says he is representing Christianity so can I... As it appears that anyone from a group can claim to speak for the whole group. So with that...
I apologize to you getitrite in Christianity's behalf.And I reiterate my **DISCLAIMER** The views of certain individuals do not reflect the views of all.
Thanks. I understand that that particular hubber is only representing his own emotionally charged world view.
Don't confuse science or math with history books. We read history and accept certain stories or facts but they are more of interest than anything else. Clearly as they say, history in many cases is written by the winners. But if the Bible is to be taught AS FACT in schools then it should be able to withstand the same scrutiny as any scientic fact. That is the point. Your deep level of faith is not proof. So if you cannot prove anything (and you can't) then it becomes your personal belief (your personal Jesus) and that is your right AS LONG AS IT DOES NOT INFRINGE UPON MINE.
Do tell. In order to determine the intelligence quotient of any individual, the monitor must first understand the indicators of intelligence. Sometimes one's level of comprehension disqualifies him from determining the mental acuteness of anyone.
Oh yeah...blcurry...the hubber who answers everything with a barrage of useless, irrelevant bible verses. If you see that as defeating a rational argument, then there is much that needs to be learned.
I never said anything that you have posted here. Do you realize you have created a straw man fallacy?
Typical! When all else fails, just come right out and insult the opposition, by launching personal vitriolic attacks. God must be very proud of your behavior! Good work!
I'd rather the Marine not kick my butt, So I'd certainly not slap his face.
I was in the military, now everyone bow in the presence of my greatness.
Haha, I was in the Infantry divisions of the United States Army; however, I expect to be treated in the same manner as anyone else .
You're a bit egotist, aren't you Mr. getitrite.
And @eastbayco, refer to the last conversation getitrite and I had.You seem quite angry. You should chill out man. You have become way too emotionally attached to these beliefs you hold. I think everyone can see that this behavior is quite disturbing.
You guys still going on and on over here? I believe in a Supreme Being. Getitrite thinks I’m dumb but I still like the guy because he stands his ground. He isn’t fake, he truly thinks it is all negative and stupid.
I like eastbayco’s words. I think he pegged you Getitrite. No offense but he hit the nail on the head. Why can’t you be Getitrite instead of Einstein. Most of us have our own identities here but you don’t. It is like you are hiding. I think misunderstood the free thinker philosophy to. I’m not hating on you, I’m just telling you that Einstein believed in a God. His God just wasn’t conventional. He also waivered from philosophy to philosophy and found argument hard to accomplish. He tended to be weak and sided with a lot of contradictory ideas. His biographer got the real Einstein. He was a very troubled man but very intelligent too. Einstein hated to offend people but he also hated to be likened to any type of thought or idea that was conventional. He was particularly rabid toward atheism. He disliked it more than he did conventional religion. He was the first to state that theism is just another religion.
I’m being as kind as I can be about it all. My name is Jasen R. Scarbrough and I’m at least 5 pages into Google. i have several degrees and can back anything you need. You’re just flat wrong about Einstein. I can’t fault you because Wikipedia is devastatingly inaccurate a lot. You would actually have to read big thick books from educated men and women to get real info. I don’t mean that as an insult, i’m just saying research your heroes.
Einstein’s gift was insight. He didn’t need math to understand how the planets react to each other. He just knew and even had visions. The math was extremely rough on him. The years he spent proving things required mathematicians and wore on Einstein’s mental and physical health. BUT, he was right in the end. By intuition and not by science. If anything ever proved the Jewish people are God’s people, it is Einstein, the daydreamer. Another Joseph.
You’ll probably take this as an insult and lash out. But truly, I’m just informing like a graduate level instructor would. Believing something does not make it true. Read a lot of information about Einstein. He did believe in a God. He believed a supernatural force that we cannot comprehend lives and breathes and is a part of everything. He did not believe in accidents or happenstance. He just couldn’t rationalize a God that even thinks about someone even as smart as him. He believed being among the smartest people ever to live meant very little because of how dumb he was in comparison to what made this happen. Fact.I am neither Enstein or Getitrite.
It's silly to conclude that someone is hiding something simply because they write under a pseudonym.
Why do feel the need to tell me this? Just because I used a certain picture as an avatar, you have assumed some real absurd BS.
What condescending BS. Who cares if you have degrees, you still believe in childish nonsense, and that is the issue here. It is extremely foolish to assume that I don't read, base on my response to silly irrational posts. Maybe some people should understand reality before they read these BIG THICK BOOKS!
Again, why do you feel the need to tell me this?
No thank you! I don't need you to inform me of anything, however I would like you to show some evidence of your God. Could you do that...like a graduate level instructor?
How is this relevant to the topic? Why are you assuming that I want to debate Einstein's idiosyncrasies? I use the picture as an avatar, if you had been following me on hubpages, you would know that I have used many pictures, including my own photo.I saw on your profile you are a published writer and musician. Would you care to let us know what some of your work is and where one can find it? I mean other than Hubpages.
I don't promote my books on hubpages, due to the fact that I would like to remain anonymous here. Even my family doesn't know that I am "getitrite" as my views are very controversial, and some people are literally crazy. I only reveal my true identity to those I deem appropriate.
Are you genuinely interested, or are you assuming that I am being dishonest on my profile? If so, what can I say? I know what I have accomplished, but you are welcomed to doubt, as it is the reasonable response to hold in such a situation. That's good. No harm. Now please react to your beliefs with the same skepticism.I asked because I have a BS meter, too. I find it strange that an author doesn't take a chance to promote his work. I also find it hard to believe that someone as opinionated as you is worried about others, especially being a former Marine. You also said you have used your picture on Hubs, but I didn't see that. The fact remains that what you say is not so controversial that you should worry about people coming after you. If you believe in something so strongly, you shouldn't have to hide.
I guess you have rubbed off on me a little, because I will need some proof to convince me you are not a fake.Good, now put that BS meter to good use with your beliefs. I understand your doubt.
I disagree. In the past I said some things on facebook that caused even my friends to start treating me with contempt...and even my atheist friends were too afraid to come to my defense. The whacked out perception that these rigidly indoctrinated beliefs causes in its victims is truly disturbing. Mental illness must be approached with caution.
Then just don't believe me, and be done ok. You are not going to "shame" me into revealing who I am.As for using my BS meter on my beliefs, I decided to take baby steps and start with you.
But let's be honest. I knew your answer before you posted back. I did it just in case there was someone left who didn't think you were a phony (which there aren't many now). I wanted to get it in black and white straight from you because not everyone has learned that a lot of people on the internet are 6'5" millionaires dating super models.
Now you have zero credibility because everyone now knows you purposely mislead them. Have fun arguing your points now.
Why start with me? These silly beliefs that you have go way back, and you have had plenty of time to pick them apart...yet here you are still believing in such brutally, and obviously, dishonest nonsense, while holding me to produce evidence for everything that I have uttered. Of course you are not being honest. Just another angry Christian...upset that Santa Claus is being taken away from him. How disturbing.
You have proven nothing. And you are starting to show just how incredibly ridiculous your reasoning is. I have not been proven to have misled anyone, as everything that I have stated in my profile is true. It is because of irrational people like you that I am not going to reveal my true identity. I guarantee you that I could produce a link to a 300 page novel for sale on Amazon, at this moment...that I wrote. But still, you don't have to trust me, and I don't expect you to.
ANGRY Christians should seek help, seriously!!!I think it is obvious by your capital letters and exclamation points that you are the angry one, not me. I have not shown any emotion, but you are assuming, which shows your lack of intelligence.
And if you could produce a 300 page novel then why are you wasting your time here? You should get to work.
No one believes you could get paid to write. Sorry.
As for you saying I am dishonest, you have nothing to base that on and you are just making that up because you are mad I called your bluff. But I have shown you are lying.
BTW. You shouldn't get so emotional here, it is only a forum.I just call them like I see them. Sorry if you don't like it, don't reply.
Just pointing out that you are making personal attacks. If you don't like me pointing it out don't reply.
I think if anyone went back to Getitrites posts would know who attacks who
"whom"
You are using the objective case, therefore the correct usage is "whom"
Of course I am no writer...neither am I rational.Oh, man. You got me. lol
You can't win the argument, so you judge my punctuation. Nice try Hemingway.I have already won this argument long ago, because most of what you have said is merely conjecture, based upon severely faulty reasoning.
And since you doubt my writing skills, I just thought I would try to assuage some of your doubts by showing some of the things a real writer knows.BTW, I did not attack your punctuation. I pointed out your grammatical error regarding correct case. You used the nominative case when, clearly, this is the objective case.
Hope this helps you in your future writings.
He is attacking your statements. You are attacking him personally. There is a difference.
What egregious mindless conclusions. Do you even filter this nonsense, and rationally process it before you spout it. You have nothing but conjecture. You have no business in a forum of rational thinkers.
Sorry your BS metre is acting up. I can tell you very few of my friends know my views as they cause problems for some. In the short time I've been on Hubpages I've been physically threatened a few times. I don't take these threats lightly, as there are some odd people amongst us. There fact that your asking for personal information is a bit of a red flag.
Red Flag? I asked about his books that HE said he has written. He put that on his profile. If you don't want people to know who you are or that you are a writer, why put it on your Hubpage Profile where everyone can read it??? To get credibility?
If you say you are a plumber, don't get offended if I ask you to fix my toilet. Right? Is that fair enough?Actually if I said I was plumber, but didn't want my identity revealed I could instruct you on how to fix your own toilet. Plus wether he right books is irrelevant to his opinions regarding spirituality. Don't you think?
If it is irrelevant, then why put it on your profile? Plus, I don't know if it is irrelevant to his opinion on spirituality because one could assume his books ARE on spirituality since he speaks so passionately about it. That is what I gathered at least. But only he can answer that.
Altogether, I think it is natural for me to ask what someone has written when they tell me they are a writer.
If we had made contact from a different angle, I would have been receptive to your request, but given the situation, I think I am doing the right thing. Plus you have created an aversion, by attacking and discussing ME, instead of providing a substantial argument for your ludicrous beliefs.
I would also have the right to deny my plumbing services to you, if I didn't feel comfortable coming to your house. Right? Is that fair enough?Give it a break. You aren't published. You posted it to everyone on your homepage, but you don't give an example like every writer on Hubpages. I mean, come on, if you wanted to only discuss religion, you wouldn't go to Hubpages. People come here to promote themselves.
You want people to think you are a writer, but you aren't. Case closed.What an angry and judgmental Christian. Wow!
I guess I have been convicted. I'll prepare for hanging tomorrow.
To getitrite and Rad Man, anonymity doesn't exist in the modern world, pretty much a fact. There's no computer or device on the face of this planet that can't be hacked/cracked.
A person could hack onto HubPages, obtain your IP (Internet Protocol) address, then make their way into your computer and they could have every keystroke you make e-mailed to them on a regular basis. Or they could hack your account, find your e-mail address and obtain your IP. However, hacking takes time and for you, I highly doubt it'd be worth it.
To be anonymous you'd have to live off the grid and survive off the land, with no computer, cell phone, landline phone, TV or electricity. Even then, you could still be found by satellites. So for the most part, you can't be anonymous...good thing the majority of the worlds top hackers have positive morals. Imagine if the intentions of a group like the activists "Anonymous" turned bad.I'm aware of that and also aware that I'm not worth the effort. Mostly the kind of person who would go to that extend is not the kind of person I'm arguing with. But thanks. Not really, but thanks anyway.
Radman. You are selling yourself short. I am sure there is someone searching for you right now! lol
Ha ah ah ha ah ha. It's okay I have a really big dog and 4 black belts in the house. One with a black belt in Jujitsu, 3rd degree in Taekwondo and is not working into the mixed martial arts crap. Me however likes to run. I'm way to pretty.
Muslims have no power in the US and in many cases are frightened by the redneck element that assumes they are all the same.. I am just as concerned about Sharia Law in other countries but this thread is about things that are happening in the US. If you wish to discuss Sharia Law then start another thread.
I mean trying to press their beliefs. All over the world. The US isn't the only country in the world or represented on Hubpages. You need to broaden your horizon.
You're really not paying attention are you?
Not in North America anyway. We can't help much in the middle east.
It was a broader example, guys. Let it go. lol
You really can't judge people for religion and there opinion, my daughter was born and raised in america and shes of muslim religion, and my son in law is from pakistan and at first I was a little concerned but he's one of the nicest guys I have ever met.
I never judged anyone from another religion. I was pointing out that when atheists judge religion, they usually point to Christianity, not another religion. I also mentiond Buddists and Hindu. I have a lot of friends that are different religions.
Sorry I misunderstood, I have a lot of friends and family that are different religions too.
No worries. This is the first time I have commented on a Hubpages with this many comments. It is a bit different than other websites, so I might have put some comments out of place. I have my setting on thread when other sites are on chronological.
A lot of them point to Christianity because Christianity is the most generally scrutinized religion. Also it is most widely represented and expressed.
The basic belief of Christianity as I understand it....is to be Christ like....losing forgiveness....showing love and compassion....and understanding that not everyone is going to agree with another. We are to be God's hands working on earth....to give a drink of water to one who is thirsty and food to one who is hungry....clothes to one who needs clothing....to provide shelter and help another to stand on one's feet. If we are not doing these things our self....it is my opinion that we do not have the right to be angry or blame God. Just saying.
I agree. You give people the opportunity to believe and to think, and a lot of them will till **** it up.
We have this great brain that can do wonders, but we waste our time on developing weapons that could destroy whole nations.
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