Petition to HubPages

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Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years ago
Dear Staff:

This request comes from a discussion on another thread. It's being forwarded with the deepest respect and regard for those of you who have created and who maintain the site and the friendly working environment. We hope you'll give consideration to our request.

Because most of us began writing here with an anticipation (considerably fostered by the site) that HP would offer a venue for revenue - or 'passive income,' and because the online environment has dramatically changed in the past few years, we feel we can best serve the site's goals as well as our own if you would provide information on the following questions:

- What dollar amounts (no names) are the top 10 earners on this site yielding each month?
- How many hubs do the top earners have published?
- How many years have the top earners been on the site?
- What are the commonalities in hubs by too earners? ('good quality' is too vague)
- What is the 'average' income for Hubbers with various numbers of published hubs? (100, 300, etc.)
- What is the overall 'average' income for all Hubbers? Okay, we know there are inactives. Do your best.
- What are the commonalities (numbers of hubs, types, months/years on site) for those Hubbers getting a monthly payout?
- What are the realities in terms of income for various types of hubs (such as video, travel, essay, high-tech, etc)?
- Of the 70-plus thousand writers here, how many are active?
- What is the average number of hubs published per Hubber?
- What other solid information can you give us about revenue potential on this site?

Again, we know there are broad differences in Hubbers, but data mining will show some answers.

You are sitting on a gold mine of potential, with thousands of active writers who all want to succeed. If we succeed, you will succeed even more than you're now succeeding. We know Panda and Penguin were not of your doing, but you're the only ones with access to global performance data on this site, and therefore, the only ones who can unlock the keys to a good future. Your writers have to be participants in the strategies, not uninformed players.
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  Writer Foxposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I hope the HP staff will do this. Just listing the top ten incomes for Hubbers every month would be helpful to everyone. For a contest, maybe the Top Tens should get a bonus (monetary)!
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  Marisa Wrightposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  But then, people would go to their account and copy all their topics. That's what happened to some of the top-earning Hubbers when HubPages had a series of interviews on the blog. They regretted having agreed to do it!
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  Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Marisa - that's why we are suggesting not to include names - a list of anonymous dollar amounts could be very encouraging, but not expose people to abuse. We are a,ready aware that some high earners of the past aren't seeing the same numbers now, but it would be great to know the possibilities in today's climate.
  
  If the site wanted to further mask the names, a range of hubs could be listed to associate the investment of time and work with the returns. Example:
  
  Top earner - $1,200, with more than 1000 hubs published.
  #2 earner - $1,150, with more than 1,000 hubs published.
  #3 earner - $900, with more than 500 hubs published.
  
  I like Jan's suggestion of calling this an annual report to writers. And I also like the suggestion of privately emailing it. If needed, the site could even limit recipients to Hubbers who are both active and published, to avoid sending it to inactive people (those not active for more than X months), or to non-writers.
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  LuisEGonzalezposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  This is by far one of the best suggestions anyone has ever come up with. Thanks!
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  Thelma Albertsposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I agree to this. The best suggestion I have read on this site.
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  lovebuglenaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  How would knowing what top hubbers make be useful to us... It wouldn't unless they tell us how they did it.
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  galleryofgraceposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You mean something like?
  Top ten Hp faves
  Top Hp high Dollar earners
  Top ten HP pets
  Top ten Hp Elite
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  Mark Johannposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I have been with these questions in my mind since I have joined HP. This is something good.
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  GA Andersonposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I was first struck by the scope of the OP, much of which I think could lead to wrong assumptions, and after reading this thread I am sure I will be lambasted, but since so many perceptions, and so much "everybody knows" information is just opinions - I can't resist offering my own perspective.
  
  Which of course is just my opinion, not concrete expert knowledge - and it is just as likely that I am as wrong as I think I am right, so...
  
  The only beneficial info in all your questions would possibly be some type of "earnings potential" guidelines.
  
  I can see where this could be motivating, as in showing the potential income possible - but could this also be very misleading? What if it is like the "Earn $10,000 month from your kitchen table" sales pitch? Yes one or two people may have earned that $10k, (and 1 or 2 hubbers may be top-tier earners), but the next 50,000 that signed-up based on that promo info never come close.
  I can hear the recriminating, "But you saids...." now.
  
  Many/most of the rest of your questions ask for some type of "Hub quantity" qualifier, but in my opinion quantity has nothing to do with earnings. And it is very misleading for new hubbers to have the impression it does.
  
  My opinion is that any emphasis on number of hubs is totally irrelevant. It is about traffic drawn, not content offered. One timely in-demand hub topic could easily out-pace 100 excellent hubs on topics with no search demand. Wasn't there a recent HP Blog post about a hub about diet Pepsi at McDonalds that clearly illustrated this?
  
  Although I do believe I understand that having a portfolio, (quantity), of writings, (hubs), that draw traffic will help your authority rating with Google -I do not believe the quantity of hubs written has any bearing on earnings other than more opportunities to hit on an in-demand topic to draw traffic.
  
  Time as a hubber and age of hubs is another non-factor - in my opinion.
  I see this as totally irrelevant. Although there may be some truth in the old, (and I think mostly erroneous), adage; "It takes time for evergreen topics to draw traffic..." I still think it is the demand for the topic, and not its age that draws traffic.
  
  What commonalities besides HP's already listed "best practices" are you looking for?
  A cheat sheet of hot topics? Tips and tricks for when to publish?
  
  My opinion is that the only important commonality is that top earners probably have 1) established their topic authority, 2) picked the right topics, (as in frequently searched), to write on.
  
  Hubbers must get away from the idea that quantity of hubs has anything to do with earnings.
  
  I know I am harping on this, but I don't think quantity has anything to do with earnings other than providing more opportunities to find a searched for topic. How many lottery tickets should I buy? 1000 may give me more chances to win, but it will still only be one that pays off.
  
  I hope you don't misunderstand my reply as an attack on you or your effort, it is just that I think making any connection between quantity of hubs and time or site, (or age of hub), to earnings is wrong. It gives new hubbers the impression that if they write 10, 100, or 1000 hubs they will make more money. And that is only going to be true if they write on something people are looking for - not because they have written all those hubs.
  
  HP already has information on "best practices" - asking for anything else is just asking for a cheat sheet - not HP's job.
  
  But remember, I did say this was just my opinion. Although I am pretty sure it is right.
  
  GA
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  Sue Adamsposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with you GA on the irrelevance of quantity. Many 100 score hubbers have less than 80 hubs. Yet I feel that an annual progress report would be helpful both to writers and staff alike. Making it public to hubbers would instruct them into greater achievements. Just like at school, being at the top of your class, with transparent statistics, each and everyone of us would take hints on how to improve our future.
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  NateB11posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe what could be provided is a general idea of how much money can be made on HP; a list of monthly income amounts and some idea of how many people make which amount monthly. Of course, no author names and no mention of topics they write about; just income and general idea of how many make those amounts. Maybe in the form of a top 10 list,and maybe just percentages of those who make monthly payouts in each income bracket. This would give members an idea of the potential for making money.
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  Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with your points, and to further respond to GA (I'm coming from a background in journalism as well as senior-management positions in corporate settings), it's clear to me that succeeding on a site such as this requires a lot more than high-quality writing. The combination of search engine trends, Internet-user behaviors, how Google (and other SEs process urls and search requests, pressure from advertisers to be positioned in ways that will earn money and many other factors are at play.
  
  This is a request for some metrics on data related to outcomes (of the entire breadth of content providers here) as well as best practices attached to results. Metrics such as the number hubs, years on the site and other data on writers who earn XYZ are helpful, not a cheat sheet.
  
  It would also be helpful to have metrics broken down by various tiers of earnings and other group-specific data (score-related, or whatever else can yield revealing information). One good piece of information would be what HP is seeing regarding the Editors' Choice program. I'm sure it's taken some time to see how it has impacted traffic and earnings, but we need to,know how EC hubs are performing across the whole site compared to other hubs.
  
  The rest is up to us. All the metrics in the world won't compensate for poor quality. But I can indeed see how competent, driven writers can use this information wisely. We are building our personal 'businesses' here, and only HP knows what's working well, and how it got that way.
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  GA Andersonposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I certainly agree with this. I just disagree with the rest that deals with quantity of hubs and time on site.
  
  GA
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  Phyllis Doyleposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I fail to see how answers to any of your questions would be of any benefit except to satisfy the curiosity.
  
  I feel HubPages does enough to make things better for us writers without having to put in a lot of extra time and work to satisfy the curiosity of those who wish to know where they stand in the line up. We are not here to know who is better than whom. Even if names are not given, what good does it do to know if we are doing better or worse than others? HP gives us detailed reports on our own individual progress -- spending unnecessary time on irrelevant reporting is a waste of time.
  
  There is too much focus among many members as to how much money other members are making. We need to focus on producing quality rather than asking for HP to satisfy curiosity.
  
  Time on site and quantity of hubs means nothing. I have seen very high hubber scores for some who have been here less than a year with less than 100 hubs and hubbers who have been here over two years with many more hubs and very low scores. This does not mean anything other than there are good writers and not so good writers.
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  Phyllis Doyleposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  It is not HP's job to babysit us. They have more important things to do.
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  IzzyMposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, I am going to disagree with you.
  
  HP were well Google-slapped in the Panda Update because they had allowed so much muck to be published on their site.
  
  By ''muck'. I mean low quality articles - short, too many grammatical errors, spammy etc.
  
  Meawwhile, there are a whole host of new writers who join daily, who do not have a clue how to write a hub that might garner traffic.
  
  The Learning Center hubs are brilliant. They did not exist when I joined.
  
  But they do not tell you what to shoot for. You have to be here a while to know that 5 views a day on a hub is not brilliant but shows potential, because the norm is zero views.
  
  I think it would be extremely helpful for hubbers to know that the best hubs have X amount of words, polls etc. That their earnings potential is XXX, that they make $$$ on a good day.
  
  When I first discovered Hubpages I was looking for ways to make money online.
  
  I already knew I could write. Loved writing, in fact. Combining the two was a dream come true.
  
  And this is true for many sign-ups.
  
  So yes,a little 'babysitting' by Hubpages staff can go a long way to bringing this site back up to it's previous station.
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  Phyllis Doyleposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Izzy. Apparently I did not make that statement in a clear fashion, for you have taken it out of context.My statement: "It is not HP's job to babysit us. They have more important things to do." is in reply to my immediate previous post and is very relevant to the previous post.
  
  What I meant is that HP does a whole lot to ensure that we have the tools we need to be successful as writers and create quality hubs. I totally agree with you that the "muck" needs to be viewed and either fixed or deleted. I do not see that as "babysitting", I see it as a responsibility of the HP staff and creators in order to keep the quality and integrity of HP and all the writers.
  
  By "babysitting", I mean catering to whims and unrealistic requests for changes that would not benefit everyone.
  
  Anyone who joins a writing site needs to do a few things before they even start writing. They need to read FAQ, Learning Center Hubs and the TOS and educate themselves -- viewing and reading hubs of more experienced writers is also a wise thing to do for a new member. To dive right in and begin writing in poor grammar and poor formatting then create a forum thread to ask why they are not getting paid or their hubs not featured have two choices: educate themselves to the point of fully understanding or leave the site.
  
  Everyone here will have slightly or drastically different opinions. My personal opinion is that this petition would not benefit everyone. I am not here to worry about who makes the most money. I am here to write, hopefully earn enough to supplement my income and continue to earn more each month, and do what I can to help HubPages be successful. I do not see that satisfying curiosity is beneficial to success for HP.
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  Phyllis Doyleposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Respectfully, I disagree with part of your statement that: "The Learning Center hubs are brilliant. They did not exist when I joined.
  But they do not tell you what to shoot for."
  
  Yes, the LCH are great and one of the tools HP gave us to become better, no matter how good we were to start with.
  
  They do not tell us what to shoot for? I disagree on that. The FAQ and TOS tell us what to shoot for and the LCH also do this if we take the time to read and understand and apply the ideas and information there.
  
  Also, when I am creating a new hub or editing an old one, I rely heavily on not only my "writing for the internet skills", but on that little blue box called Tips, or in some cases Warnings which is yellow I believe, in the top right of the page. When that box disappears from the create/edit a hub page, I know I have done well by meeting all requirements and taking suggestions.
  
  I have, several times I believe, suggested that HP implement a training period for new members. The kind of training classes that I have taken at different sites is an excellent way to weed out poor writers who would not contribute to the success of the site - OR - trains new writers to become good writers that will ensure the success and integrity of the site. I strongly believe this should be done as soon as possible since so many more people are joining HP than ever before.
  
  I know that HP was slapped by Google and it is a shame that most people blame HP for the damage done. Yet Paul E., Paul D. and their colleagues have done a lot to bring HP back -- I admire and appreciate what they do for us, and as long as they are there, shooting for quality, success and integrity, I am with them.
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  mbwalzposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I've learned a lot of general information from my husband the Master Black Belt in Six Sigma. One thing is that numbers often don't mean a thing. In this case, while the information might be interesting, I don't think it would be helpful. There are a million variables regarding how anyone make a penny on any hub! Too many data points and too many questions ends up with too many wrong assumptions. I haven't published anything for a while but keep earning. And how can anyone tell me why one day I made a whopping (for me) 54 cents and the next day .27 with number of views fairly consistent on the same hubs. Even if someone could tell me why, could I affect any change based on that information?
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  TIMETRAVELER2posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  mbwalz I think you are spot on with this comment. It is impossible to control all of the variables that go into what makes a hub a hit. One of my top hubs was written before I knew one single thing about anything with regards to online writing, and it still does well today. What I really think is that people read what helps or informs them more than anything else, but fining that certain topic that beats the competition and gives readers what they want is nearly impossible these days.
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  OanaWriterposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  This is great! I think that if the information in this petition is made available we would all greatly benefit from it. For me it would give me a sense of direction, the ability to create realistic goals and a threshold.
  
  It doesn't matter if the report cannot be 100% accurate, nothing ever is, but statistics/reports, in any industry, are always a fantastic informational tool. I can see that many hubbers believe not all this info will be relevant, but I think it will at least provide further insight on what's achievable on Hubpages, based on past results, and also help us make informed decisions.
  
  There are investors and large companies out there making decisions on data that is unstable and subject to change, and still benefit from it, so I think as hubbers we would also benefit from knowing how it's been so we can learn and adapt to how it's going to be. Although we may not be able to replicate past success that other hubbers had, we can at least learn from them and move forward by doing things at the best of our ability.
  
  Anyway , thank you Marcy Goodfleisch for posting and I do look forward to a response from Hubpages.
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  Traci Ruffnerposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  These are very good questions. Feedback is important to success.
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ChristinSposted 10 years ago
So many excellent questions here that could do a great deal to improve not only our performance as writers, but give a huge boost to this site as well. I do hope HubPages staff will give serious consideration to answering these - at least some of them.
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summerberrieposted 10 years ago
Thanks Marcy. Great Questions.
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Kathleen Cochranposted 10 years ago
Great list of questions. The answers can only help us. HP used to list hubbers by hubscore, which doesn't necessarily mean earnings, but it helped to see what topics and writing styles were rewarded here. They stopped doing that to protect writers from scrappers, etc. That's understandable. But your suggestion of sharing just data is excellent.
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  Writer Foxposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  HP still lists Hubbers by Hubber Score:
  http://hubpages.com/authors/best/
  
  But, Hubber Score has nothing to do with earnings. Many of the people with high Hubber Scores have posted on the Forum that they don't even reach payout every month. So, if you are looking for the people Google considers to be the best on this site, the HP list is completely inaccurate.
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  sallybeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Many of the people in these stats have not written for months or years and yet their Hub Score remains in the in the upper ninety's - that makes complete nonsense of what people say about Hub Scores being related to participation on these Pages.
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  Writer Foxposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  That is correct. You can add to that: number of page views, publishing new Hubs, answering/asking questions, etc.
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  Marisa Wrightposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  The important point is, earnings potential is NOT a factor. Participation is one way to get a high Hubber Score, but other factors are the average score of all your Hubs, the amount of traffic they're getting, the number of followers you have, etc.
  
  Besides, it's quite possible these Hubbers are participating even though they haven't written anything for a long time. I've written 8 Hubs in the last 3 years, but I'm still active! Those Hubbers may still be reading and commenting on Hubs in their own circles, for all you know.
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  Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Marisa, my personal definition would be activity on the site through some means (as you mention, that could be commenting, asking questions, whatever). It doesn't have to be through recent publishing.
  
  By informing us of what people are really earning here, we do indeed see the potential. Sure, those in the too 10 (or top 100, whatever) are the exception, but by knowing what's being accomplished, we can see what is possible. Currently, we have no idea.
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  sallybeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  That is really interesting Marisa because the other thing I notice is that many people who appear to be very successful on HubPages follow very few people and make very few comments. Perhaps they participate in the forums! Does that count?
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  Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Sally - I'm making a distinction between the Hubber score and actual earnings. There may be people we don't see at all here who are doing quite well financially. Or relatively speaking.
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  Marisa Wrightposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Yes it definitely does. I read very few Hubs and I very, very rarely comment. I rarely visit the Q&A section. I follow a tiny handful of people. Virtually all my activity is in the forums.
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  Writer Foxposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Well, I do know because I can look at their activity and see if they are commenting and I can look at their last Hub and see when it was published.
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Solarasposted 10 years ago
Great list of questions! HP Staff please shed some light - we are dying to know!
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Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years ago
The only data that will be meaningful is data related to the numbers HP sees regarding payouts, average views across the site, actual earning histories.

It is no secret that there's been a huge decline since Panda, so trying to skirt the facts doesn't help us make progress. However, understanding what's really going on could be hugely helpful and motivating.
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fpherj48posted 10 years ago
Marcy.....As a Hubpages Community member and fellow-writer, I thank you for taking the time and obvious forethought necessary, to create this impressive and valuable petition.
HP Team, please be assured I support this petition on behalf of all writers here, who agree with and are in favor of a response to the questions Marcy has presented within.
Thank you, Paula
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bravewarriorposted 10 years ago
Marcy, these are great questions that can help all of us. Although those of us who are still here are because of the community and the love of writing, making some money would be awesome, too. And I don't mean every other month (that's the rate I'm receiving payment and it took me 2 years to get there!) My page views increase daily, even tho I don't post daily. It would nice if HP would give active members a cost of living increase!
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Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years ago
For the record, although I've seen some people ask about increases, or pay to compensate for holiday times, that wasn't my personal thought in posting this. I understand the economics for the site - they have to build in an appropriate profit margin, and the site has suffered in the past few years, too.

I just think we can all benefit from having data that will help us know what to aim for, and what the challenges are (as well as the realistic success potential).

Regarding extra pay - for those reaching specific tiers of payouts, the bonus program is in place. Anyone with healthy payouts can get additional dollars for publishing at least four hubs a month. The details are in the earnings section. I feel this is a fair way to do it - it rewards people who are doing well, which means there will be increased revenue to the site to cover those extra dollars.

The purpose in my questions is to help ALL writers better understand what's working well here and what the real potential is for those if us who weren't here in the glory days.
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  Writer Foxposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Marcy: What specifically do you mean by "tiers of payouts" and "bonus program?"
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  Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  It's my understanding those opportunities are listed in the Earnings section - a tab at the too, maybe?
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  Writer Foxposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I still can't find what you are talking about. Do you have a link?
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  Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  WF - just sent you an email. Too long to explain here.
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jansharesposted 10 years ago
Sounds like the makings of a thorough annual report, made available for HP writers to view privately via email, so that HP can keep its hand as close to the vest as possible. Good idea, Marcy.
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rohanfelixposted 10 years ago
A good set of questions! Thanks for showing initiative!
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younghopesposted 10 years ago
This is excellent Marcy, these questions if answered will go a long way in creating motivation amongst hubbers to write more and more,
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billybucposted 10 years ago
Well, I read through all the comments but I don't see one from the HP staff. What a shock! Thanks, Marcy, for your intelligent and respectful list of questions.
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  Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks. Billy - (just trying to keep my title and shirt for Best Community Activist, I guess).
  
  From what I recall, the staff usually takes a bit of time to discuss and give thought to this type of request. So I'm not surprised they haven't jumped in right away. They do listen though, and they care, and I'd be surprised if they don't respond at some point, once the comments have been given consideration.
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  billybucposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I hope so; they never did respond to my letter/hub to them.
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Kathleen Cochranposted 10 years ago
Here's hoping enough hubbers comment in order to catch someone's attention. SHARING
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watergeekposted 10 years ago
I totally agree, Marcy. I've written 70 stellar hubs on key topics (not necessarily "popular"). I've been here three years, have finished the apprenticeship program, have won Hub of the Day twice. 65% of my hubs are Editors Choice and many of the others receive regular readership. I'm not a peak performer, but I'm good. However, I only made payout once last year, and I'm not even close now.

Is it even worth it, financially, to write more? I have no idea. The answers to your questions could help tremendously in knowing what to aim for.
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  JayeWisdomposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I find your response very interesting. You have some excellent hubs--well-written and nicely organized--and three more than I currently have published. (I had 23 more, but unpublished them.) We've also been writing on the site about the same aount of time.
  
  However, the similarities end there. (1) The last time there was a questionnaire about wanting to join the Apprenticeship Program, I applied and thought I was accepted. Then nothing happened. (2) I've never had a HOTD (3) None of my hubs are Editors Choice--not even my "best" one that garners the most traffic. I'm not very prolific, but I've made payout since May 2011. However, my earnings go up and down like a roller coaster, recently (within past two weeks) starting that downhill run again.
  
  With your record, I can't understand why you don't consistently reach payout. Of course, that's only one thing of many I don't understand about HP! Good luck.
  Jaye
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Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years ago
Something that just occurred to me is that HP might also consider doing a survey with Hubbers who are regularly generating good revenue and ask them about some additional details, such as whether they Tweet their hubs, are they on G+, do they post on Facebook, are they doing other marketing things and (more importantly) are those things working? We hear those tips, and some people post or Tweet like crazy, but are those things factors in the final numbers?

We could use real data about best practices, and real information about whether there's a tipping point at which a certain number of good, informative hubs can produce a healthy monthly payout. There may be outliers, but I'm guessing there are also trends we can use as mile markers.
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Spongy0llamaposted 10 years ago
I think HubPages success has become A LOT more hub-oriented of late. I get loads of traffic and have a score of 97, even though I haven't followed another hubber, commented, answered a question, participated in the forums, or anything like that. I just write hubs and watch my audience (and earnings!) grow.
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  Writer Foxposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I appreciate your candor. So, just to make sure I understand the reason for your high Hubber Score:
  
  1) In the past 2 months, you commented on one Hub (your own Hub!)
  2) You made one Forum post (this one).
  3) You answered three Questions and commented on one Answer.
  4) You followed two people.
  5) You published no new Hubs.
  6) You only have the 10,000 view accolade for 78 Hubs in three years, which is not exactly "loads of traffic" nor "growing earnings" on HubPages.
  
  Have I missed something here?
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  Heather Saysposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I myself rarely post in the forums or any other related activities. I focus mostly on writing new Hubs and my Hubber score has been at 100 for months now.
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  Writer Foxposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You make a ton of comments and have more than 100K page views in two years on 99 Hubs. Way to go, Heather! (I hope you're making money, too!)
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  Heather Saysposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I'm definitely making money, thanks I guess I just don't feel like I do a lot outside of writing Hubs. Are you able to see that info somewhere other than accolades? Thanks again
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  rebekahELLEposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  That's because you deserve that triple digit score, Heather Says. It's well deserved.
  
  I like the idea of data put together in an annual report sent via email to active members of the site. Sounds like a lot of work, but it could give be of benefit to all involved. The only thing is that everything is relative. There are other factors at play; links, quality of links, popularity of chosen topics shared via social media. Some topics trend and share better than others. Etc.
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  Heather Saysposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Aw, you made my day Thanks!
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  Spongy0llamaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I didn't really start writing until a year ago and I am just about to start writing again after a long hiatus due to abuse suffered as a live-in caregiver abroad and family hardship at home.
  
  Despite my lack of activity, I regularly gain new followers, around 100 views a day, and I earn around 25 cents a day, give or take. I got my first payout a couple months ago and I'm already halfway to my second.
  
  I am sorry you think my modest success is too small to be proud of, but I won't let you discourage me.
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  Writer Foxposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I certainly didn't mean to discourage you in any way. We were discussing Hubber Scores and everyone wants to know what the formula is for getting a high Hubber Score. They always mention things like commenting on the Forum, commenting on other Hubs, high traffic to Hubs, etc. But that doesn't seem to be the reality and there are other Hubbers with scores of 100 who never do any of those things and haven't published Hubs in a year or more.
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  Solarasposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Commenting in the forums seems to be lowering my score LOL. Maybe it's the content of my posts... It has dropped 4 points - why it even went up to begin with is a mystery tome.
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  mbuggiehposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I've experienced the same thing.
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  SmartAndFunposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I believe that the Hubber score criteria was changed several months ago to more reflect QAP rankings rather than community participation. I think because it was more participation-based for so long, there is still tons of outdated score advice all over the site, perhaps even in the learning center.
  
  The new criteria could certainly explain Spongy0llama's and Heather Says' high scores. I don't think it is so much about community participation any more.
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  JayeWisdomposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  My overall Hubber score rose from 99 to 100 for the past few days, even though my traffic recently dropped 50%, I haven't participated much in the community for most of the past week, nor have I published any new hubs. The Hubber score is as puzzling to me as it's always been!
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  janderson99posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I have over 1000 hubs. I added one hub and my score dropped by a point - can't be due to average hub score change. Ho Hum!
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Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years ago
Just so credit (or blame) goes to the right person, Writer Fox is the one who suggested a petition. (We can share the shirt - lol!).
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  Writer Foxposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Do we get a shirt?
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  fpherj48posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Cedit due: Thank you, Writer Fox for suggesting this. You deserve your own shirt.
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  Writer Foxposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Foxes don't wear clothes.
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  fpherj48posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Writer Fox ....Perhaps some writers do not wear clothes either? After all, we work at home..
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  Writer Foxposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I hope you remember to turn your Web cam off.
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  DzyMsLizzyposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  ROFLMAO, you two!
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  Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I will not describe in detail what I wore (or didn't wear) when writing at home the year my AC broke (in Texas). But I can relate.
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Charles Buckleyposted 10 years ago
For some of us, this isn't about the money, but it is a nice bonus, and a good source of added revenue. Instead of a monetary bonus, the 10 ten incomes should just be posted on the main site so that they get better sponsorship, which in its own way, leads to more money, and for those of us who just want more viewers of recognition, we get the views we want. This way everyone wins, whether they want money or recognition.
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Sue Adamsposted 10 years ago
Good work Marcy and Writer Fox. Of course we could use this information and so could staff.

About hubber scores:
I went through the http://hubpages.com/authors/best/ page and this is the information available to us at the moment for what it's worth.

Out of 70,400 hubbers there are:

78 hubbers with scores of 100
1,314 hubbers have a score of 90 or more
23,038 hubbers have a score of 75 or more

That leaves 47,108 hubbers with a score lower than 75
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  Writer Foxposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks for putting that together. That's a real eye-opener.
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  Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Wow - Sue, that is a great snapshot of some data! Thanks for compiling and sharing!
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davidlivermoreposted 10 years ago
I don't want to know this information.

I am here to write for myself. I wrote how I want, and don't want to mimic what others do. I sorta did that with one of my hubs, and felt it wasn't me. I kept it as a lesson learned.

I think you earn more by doing, not by copying.

Just my two cents.
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  Writer Foxposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  The idea is to just post the top earnings, not the names of the Hubbers. They would be anonymous. We would just like to know the income potential for writing Hubs.
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  Solarasposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I would just like to know what is possible, and what is unrealistic. It would be nice to know the number of posts those in the top 10 had. I think it might surprise us.
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Crystal Tatumposted 10 years ago
This is excellent Marcy. I hope you get a response and that the response will be publicly shared. I believe Hubpages is the best site of its kind, but it is losing quality writers. Surely staff can take the time to answer the concerns of the writers, which have been reiterated time and again. No writers, no Hubpages. Is there a way for others to sign the petition?
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Victoria Lynnposted 10 years ago
Marcy, this is a great list! Thank you for doing this. Such an annual report would be very helpful to all of us writers who want to know how we can make our hubs better, increase our income, and eventually our passive income. I hope that a HP staff person responds to this. Great job.
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purnasrinivasposted 10 years ago
Hi Marcy,
You have raised a very interesting discussions. Hope we get the answers to these questions. Even I get astonished seeing people having very few hubs and claiming to have earned a lot.
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phdast7posted 10 years ago
Excellent questions Marcy. It would be very helpful to receive the equivalent of an Annual Financial Report. All successful businesses such a report available. The dissemination of accurate information can only be of benefit, both to HP itself and to HP hubbers. Theresa
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Astra Nomikposted 10 years ago
Wow, these are some interesting ideas in this petition. I am not sure that HubPages would share the kind of information you are requesting in this list. But i wish you luck in pursuing the questions.

The best way to be motivated it to motivate yourself. Money in itself does not become the final motivator, but it does help pay some bills and some internet costs, perhaps.

I would love to know what results people have had with tweets, pins and likes, and any other forms of sharing.

Good thread.
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Barbara Kayposted 10 years ago
I'd like to see a report like that too. It would give some motivation to write more hubs.
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IzzyMposted 10 years ago
I think this whole thread has come about because of a lack of transparency.
What is good traffic to one hubber is pathetic to another.
I remember getting 60 views on one hub (in a day) and being ecstatic with excitement!
I still would be today if it happened on a newly published hub.
If the hub traffic average was 3000 a day, most new hubbers would leave when their hub only garnered between 0 and 5 views per day.
The sad fact is (and I have experimented widely, and not just on this subdomain) is that the majority of hubs die immediately, some semi-revive after a period while only the chosen few survive.
These are generally on a broad topic with a carefully chosen title.
The more you write, the better a writer you become.
That is a fact.
Everyone looks back on their earlier hubs with disdain, even though they are perfectly good in their own way.
You can always add a poll if you can't think of any other way to expand on your chosen topic,.
This brings the googlebot rushing, and you may see some sporadic views thanks to your editing.
I think the hub apprentice scheme was introduced to teach good writers how to write for the web.
It was a good idea, but it was too 'elitist'. We had new hubbers who thought after six months that they were in charge of the world! Nobody on this thread (well, maybe one) obviously, and certainly not the OP.
The thing is, for everyone who is interested in writing well, and who want to succeed, there are 10 more who just want to rip off everyone else. Change that...100.
HP can't send out 'confidential' information to all the hubbers, because half of them are spammers. They can't send it to us, the plebs, because they would miss someone important out (probably me), but hey this information would be helpful to 'genuine' hubbers, and there are precious few of us really.
Having said all that, I now know how to write for the web. I'm just not very successful at it.
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  Marisa Wrightposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Very true.
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  jansharesposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Excellent points, IzzyM, all well said.
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ChitrangadaSharanposted 10 years ago
Thanks Marcy Goodfleisch, for this thread and valid set of questions!
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mbuggiehposted 10 years ago
Great points everyone!

My sense is that much of the so-called "feedback" on Hubpages is automated and that there will be little meaningful and/or substantive feedback to questions---like yours, that require something other than a "canned" response.

In addition:

I've noticed that the number of high-quality, featured, or "Editor's Choice" hubs that one publishes mean little in terms of one's "hubber" score.

I've also noticed that scores on preexisting hubs seems to go up and/or down without explanation or clear indication of why; the revenues stall and/or accelerate without explanation.
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SmartAndFunposted 10 years ago
Oh, and thanks Marcy, this is a great idea.

...good luck.
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Sheri Fayeposted 10 years ago
This is exactly the info I would like to know too. Basically, is it worth it? Is there really potential for a decent income? I don't mind hard work at all....would just like to know if there is any realistic expectation of payout before I spend the time to write hundreds of hubs....HP staff...please give us some realistic encouragement. I guess if you (they) don't respond to this it means no one is making any real money. I also worry that the HP business model is no longer working and one day they will just shut their virtual doors, and then what happens to our hubs and all our hard work? It would be nice to know that the business is financially sound before I (we) spend time investing in it with our talent and work.
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JayeWisdomposted 10 years ago
Thanks for your effort to gain transparency from the HP staff, Marcy. Here's hoping for success.

Jaye
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Anamika Sposted 10 years ago
I would love to know that too.
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WiccanSageposted 10 years ago
An answer would be great but I'm honestly not expecting one.

The fact is, when someone is able to make a significant amount from content websites like these, it's the exception, not the rule.

I think the actual numbers are something people would find discouraging. Not that it's HPs fault, it's just the nature of the beast. 10 years ago, before the internet was flooded with millions of content articles per day, it was possible to make a living from places like Squidoo, Associated Content and other such rev share sites.

I don't mean to sound pessimistic, really. So many people join, write 10 articles and give up in these kinds of places. Or they get to it sporadically and inconsistently. Or they don't bother with SEO, marketing, or they put put poor quality work. These people really, really, really bring the average down. People can still succeed at web content, but the numbers aren't going to be indicative of that. And such discouraging numbers could really hurt content publishing sites, because fewer people would try.

(That would actually be good for the more determined writers, if those not fully invested would just drop out; but that's another story).
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susi10posted 10 years ago
Yes, Marcy, I think this is a great idea. I would love to know that there are actually Hubbers out there who are earning a lot. Also, I have always wanted to know how many hubs earn hundreds of dollars for Hubbers each month, even though I know that the number is probably in the hundreds if not thousands. Perhaps, it would be encouraging that someone got X amount this month and have Y hubs. At least when I am writing, I will know that if I write that many hubs I will be earning a lot. Nonetheless, it will be a great motivation.

Thanks for this Marcy! I hope others will agree too and I'm looking forward to the HP team's response.
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  Askmeposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Put me down too. I would love to know what qualifies as a "good" hub. I get sick of seeing HOD articles that all seem to be the same. They always seem to pertain to an instructional hub, like "How to have a Princess Birthday Party" or
  "How to make your own Potpourri " I don't find any of those very interesting but they attract a lot of attention and thus, more traffic and $$.
  
  I have been on Hubpages for 5 years. I have noticed a huge decrease in traffic and earnings. My scores were once in the 90% range have dropped to 86% and no explanation as to why. I miss the days when we could add tag words to our hub. When that option ended, I believe my traffic and hits on a hub ended as well.
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Paul Edmondsonposted 10 years ago
For new folks, we (me, Paul Deeds and others) regularly read the forums and discuss the feedback (Billybuc we all read your Hub and see many comments on things we have in the works). HubPages is a world class community and we plan to steward HubPages for years to come.

2013 was a busy year. We really focused on improving our quality systems and will continue to work on them in 2014. If we look back a year, HubScore is dramatically different, but it happened in iterations. HeatherSays is a great example of a high HubScore and great Hubs. You can also get a very high HubScore with great Hubs, little traffic, and minimal community involvement, but there are aspects that can still improve your score beyond Hub quality alone.

Over the years, we have shared many data points on earnings. There are certainly categories that pay better (health, tech, finance) vs creative writing. The earning potential today is thousands per month. I think it takes unique talent to achieve those levels and perhaps a little luck.

It's very unpredictable on who becomes a top earner, but we foremost care about the total enjoyment that Hubbers and readers get from HP. We love seeing stars emerge that we couldn't have predicted and earnings are important, but we hope the community is contributing their creative efforts for a greater purpose.

Knowing how much everyone earns is a little convoluted. For example, I earn about 1/2 from Amazon and half from HP Ads, but when we survey people, that isn't indicative of the average.

We did build in many of the things that correlate with success into the apprentice program and the progress bar feature. If I were to tweak the AP today, I'd offer the following advice.

- Concentrate your subdomain on a style (This has changed since we started). Google has shifted weight over the years to topical sites or sites that have a specific style. For example, write all how to hubs or concentrate on recipes.

- Make high quality Hubs frequently. In general, the more people write, the better they become and they can start to see patterns with the type of Hubs that garner an audience. There are always outliers. Sometimes someone makes a hit Hub and it produces mobs of traffic for years, but that distorts what most people should shoot for in their approach to making Hubs.

- Consider how to make content culturally relevant. Blend the topic you're covering with editorial that is pertinent today to tap into social audiences. This is probably the single biggest change since we started.

We would love to be as helpful as we can and help people achieve their goals. For many of the most successful Hubbers, I don't think we could have predicted their success.

The support and guidance that the community offers each other is often best.

For those that want want an idea of what the top earners can earn in a year.

- Average over $30K from HP Earnings (Not sure what they earned from Amazon)
- Average 105 Hubs
- Been on HubPages over 5 years
- Still make Hubs

HubPages is like a small family that cares deeply about the community. We are working hard on our quality systems so we can focus more attention on the good community members. Thanks for the post Marcy.
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  Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Paul - thanks so much for the thoughtful and informative response! It's hugely helpful to those of us who see HP as a venue for building an income from writing. One of your points prompted a question:
  
  You mentioned the value of specializing our subdomains (all cooking, all tech, etc.). In the past, there was more focus on diversity. Would you recommend that we break out various topics from a diverse subdomain and create multiple accounts? I recognize this might be confusing at first (or cause a decline in revenue), but do you see longterm benefits in going that route?
  
  Thanks, again for reading and responding!
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  jansharesposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you, Paul for answering these questions. I found this very helpful and hopeful. I look forward to continuing my hubber journey and reaping the benefits. Excellent response.
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  NateB11posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Good information, answers lots of questions. Thanks.
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  cclitgirlposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Paul - thank you so, so much for posting this. I know I was a bit discouraged a few months ago, which in combination with starting back to grad school, prompted a writing break. But, I am so glad to hear that HP is here to stay and that you all care so deeply. I have looked at other sites and NONE comes close to what HP is.
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Sue Adamsposted 10 years ago
Thank you Paul for answering some of our questions. This is very helpful.
How do you feel about introducing an annual anniversary report containing this type of information including the following type of info, which took me 1/2 hour to gather from the best hubbers pages:
"Out of 70,400 hubbers there are:
78 hubbers with scores of 100
1,314 hubbers have a score of 90 or more
23,038 hubbers have a score of 75 or more
That leaves 47,108 hubbers with a score lower than 75"

Plus more answers to some of Marcia's other questions?

Please Paul, Robin & friends, can we put an Anniversary Report on the agenda?
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  susi10posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, that is a good idea Sue. That would be very informative for Hubbers and spark some interest. Hubbers can then see where they stand in the grand scheme of things.
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Mark Ewbieposted 10 years ago
Nice response from Paul E and interesting too. Those viral hits would skew the figures all over the place.

I learned stuff from this thread so big up to Marcy.

30k a year would be very nice indeed.
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  Barbara Kayposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I'd take that too!
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DzyMsLizzyposted 10 years ago
Glad to see that Paul E. and other staffers read this thread. I was on the verge of suggesting that it perhaps should have been posted under the "New Hub Pages feature suggestions" category, for a better chance at being seen/responded to by staff.

I began here with poetry, then learned that isn't really the best thing for this site. Then I began to diversify. That helped my score and income--though that's not saying a lot about the latter--I have yet to reach a monthly payout--it's more like quarterly.

As I improved, I got better scores on my articles, and am now starting to see my income go up, though not as quickly as I might like. (I hit my very first dollar-a-day for 3 days on a row at the beginning of January 2014), but it soon enough dropped back to between 56 and 80-something cents a day. It is frustrating, not to be able to know WHY this happens.

I still maintain diversity, as that is just how my mind works--I'm a "Jill of all trades; master of none" as far as topics about which to write. Some I can write off the top of my head; some need research. Some require photos of things not available to me to shoot, so I must search the public domain.
I'm not sure I even want to try to open other accounts to "specialize" topics in various subdomains. I don't have either the time or energy for that. As sole caretaker for my husband and his health issues, I'm barely managing here--we're not really "living," we're just existing. Therefore, I do hope that specialty subdomains do not become "De rigueur."
I did notice that once my hubber score hit 100, ( a couple of times only), that once that level was reached, it has never again dropped below a minimum of 94, regardless of new hubs or not, and the writing hiatus I took for a couple of months last year. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything--it's just a point of interest.

Again--thanks to Paul E. for his reply.
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  TIMETRAVELER2posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Well, Paul...all I can say is this: I have been here for two years, have always scored high, have approximately half of my articles in one style in a topic of high interest and never ever have made payout each month. I'm lucky to make it once in 3 months. When you talk about $30,000 per year potential, you sure are not talking to me or thousands of others like me. I have changed my hubs countless times to align them with your guidelines, and it has never changed a thing. I probably have deleted as many articles as I now have online. Personally, I agree with everything GA Anderson said. Doing well is not a matter of quality or quantity or style...it is a simple matter of supply and demand. I obviously do not do this for the money or I would have quit long ago...but it sure would be nice to know that what you folks say works....well...WORKS!
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Paul Edmondsonposted 10 years ago
If you go back to the very beginning of HubPages. Probably something that very few people know is we worked out a deal to be part of Google's AdSense API launch months before we had a beta product (late 2005).

Earnings have always been part of HubPages, but we didn't intend for that to be the soul of the site. We thought that without earnings, we wouldn't get enough commercial content to make the site financially viable.

We know today that people that make incredible Hubs (look at heathersays), not for money, but for other motivations like a creative outlet, sharing knowledge - Inspiring people to make things.

A very common suggestion we get privately about HubPages is how we can make it the most positive and helpful community. I really want to foster this type of energy through HubPages.
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  sallybeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Paul, thank you.
  For many writers, earning an income is important and as much as we all love this community and the fantastic opportunity we have here to express ourselves, some of us still have families to feed.
  Many of us continue to place e-Bay ads, in the wild hope that one day we might be rewarded with a few pennies. The sad fact is, most of us have not earned anything for several months. These things concern all of us and we all wonder if anything can be done to address these concerns. Some advice in this regard would be appreciated. There does seem little point in new writers even applying to have e-Bay ads on their pages, if they will never earn anything from placing them there.
  The floating Ads still appear on our pages - taking readers right off the page to Ads which give us no return. Understanding why they are there at all would be helpful.
  If people felt they were being rewarded for their efforts, they might be fired up to write more Hubs.
  I think we would all feel better if we had answers to the questions which continually nag at us , even if the answers are not always the ones which we want to hear.
  Positive energy and a helpful community do not pay the Bills sadly.
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  DzyMsLizzyposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I have never signed up for the e-Bay ad program; I do have Amazon.
  Now, I am confused, because the ability is there to place Amazon (or e-Bay) capsules, yet the new "style guide" that will pop up during the writing/editing of a hub seems to suggest we not use those. What?????
  That seems very contradictory.
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  janderson99posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  @sallybea - I agree the 'Related Search Ads' rake off a huge percentage of the potential earnings to authors from their pages. They are so prominent on the site. They are clearly adsense ads, but they are excluded from the revenue sharing deal. I request that HP reconsiders this and shares the income with authors who generate the income, after all.
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  Sue Adamsposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Hear hear, I second that. Here here we go again, rekindling our strong opposition to the unfairness of the floating ads policy. Share or Bare our sub-domain territory.
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  TIMETRAVELER2posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Paul: Those are wonderful goals, but you must understand that what motivates people is validation. You get that two ways: with strong readership and with financial remuneration. The two are interlinked. Writers, like all people, want to know that their work has value to others, and the only way they can really know that is what i just said. It is very discouraging to write something and have few people read it or earn little or nothing for your efforts. It is important to be realistic because, regardless of ideals, HP is still a business. Would you continue on if you had no income or nobody signing up to write here? I doubt it. Well, that is why so many have walked away. Many here, myself excluded, need to earn a living. We should never forget that.
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  Phyllis Doyleposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  To think that one can earn a living by writing for HP or any other similar site is not realty. One can easily supplement their income by writing for HP and some do well at that. But, to earn a living at it is nigh on to fantasy and to expect HP to make that fantasy come true is like earning a college degree without working at it. Paul stated the potential, HP gives us the opportunity -- it is up to us to achieve it.
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  Phyllis Doyleposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you, Paul, for your time and helpful information. I joined HP to not just earn and supplement my retired income, but to write and do the best I can. I am "from the old school" and believe that to achieve success one must earn it. I will repeat what I wrote in another post here: Paul stated the potential, HP gives us the opportunity -- it is up to us to achieve it. Thank you, Paul Edmondson, Paul Deeds and others on your staff for giving me the opportunity.
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StageCheckposted 10 years ago
I'm pretty new to this site and respect the views you've open our minds to.

But: I believe that all the wrong questions are being asked. We know that articles earn based on HP's claim that their stated Hub guidelines are the goal. Follow the yellow brick road, right?

If those guidelines are lived up to but are found to be false[drastically false], then continuing to write here has no objective.

I'm personally testing the guidelines before I decide to leave. Writing anything beyond a decent online portfolio of 35 - 40 Featured Hubs is not worth it without earnings.

I tell friends that the world is dying to do things the old fashion way. For freelancers, it's getting work by introducing themselves to others in person or contacting a few publications.
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Barbara Kayposted 10 years ago
I think there is some truth in what Paul says about sticking to a subject on your account. The reason I say this is because when I quit writing about crafts, suddenly my craft hubs went down in traffic. Google moved them from page one. They were doing well before that.

My big problem with moving my non-craft ones to different accounts is that they might loose the impetus they already have. They do earn some money at least. A lot of those are Editor Choice hubs and they might lose that too.

It all amounts to if I want to take the chance of losing some of the money I am earning. That is a big decision. Maybe I'll have to gamble it.
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  Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Barbara - I'm mulling over that as well - my subdomain is very diverse, which was what used to work well. I've asked for some thoughts from Paul on whether to move them (would face the same issues you mention). The other option might be to start new subdomains on various themes, and drive traffic to our original accounts through links (but not in the reverse direction, to avoid reciprocity). Then maybe one day we can move the hubs that need a topical home base.
  
  It's a tough situation. I'm glad we can get some insight from the staff about the overall trends here. I see our situation as one that will require all writers to manage their accounts in ways that respond to the shifting Internet landscape.
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  TIMETRAVELER2posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I know a writer here who got rid of all hubs not related to his biggest niche. It made absolutely no difference to his numbers.
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  Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Does that mean the remaining hubs are drawing as much traffic as the total number did before? If so, depending on the number of hubs that were deleted, it sound like a possible increase. To me at least.
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  Glenn Stokposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I did something a little differently. Over the past year I had deleted about half of my hubs. I deleted anything with a hub score of 75 or lower that I couldn't bring up after attempts at editing. My overall traffic has come back to what it was prior to Panda, even though I have fewer hubs.
  
  It's uncertain if this has anything to do with the increased traffic, because it could be related to any other factors - such as continued changes to Google's algorithms. But if I were to guess, I'd say that those hubs I removed were bringing down my overall Google ranking.
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  jansharesposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  How old were those hubs, Glen Stok? Just curious about how long you worked on editing them before you decided to delete. I have a couple that can't seem to hit 75 but I'm not ready to delete only after 16 months here.
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  Glenn Stokposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Many of them were hubs I wrote when I first started on HubPages over four years ago. I am very patient when it comes to checking results of changes. And I also don't make many changes at once, since that only confuses the issue and we tend to lose track of what worked and what didn't work.
  
  So, to answer your question, I would give it several months after making modifications, changing titles, adding new material to old hubs, and even removing sections. If, after a few months, a hub was still under 75 and not getting much traffic, I deleted it.
  
  Oh, just remembered, back when HP unfeatured hubs, I would give them (the ones that were no longer featured) a more critical eye myself. Many times I would agree with HP's reasoning and I just deleted them. It was at that time when I started noticing an improvement of Google traffic to the remaining hubs. So that was when I decided to continue putting poor performers to rest.
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  jansharesposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you, Glenn. I appreciate you sharing your strategy.
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  DrMark1961posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I did this too, and it made a big difference. How long did he give to wait and see?
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  rebekahELLEposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think Paul is suggesting that we move hubs from established subdomains. I think your above option sounds more viable and could build the original accounts with fresh traffic. I also like his advice to write more culturally relevant material. There's only so much we can do with some of our older content that may not be as relevant today as it was last year or 4 years ago. I just need to start writing again. I had more time in the past. Now it's harder for me to fit into my schedule, but I really want to continue publishing here and build on the topics I know best.
  I love that Paul and staff read the forums and contribute their thoughts. I like their goals and that they're not simply focused on earnings.
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  TIMETRAVELER2posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  One thing I think would be helpful is for the team to come up with a way for writers to create new subdomains under the umbrella of one, original account. This would make separating hubs easier and would also allow writers to see if, in fact, having niche hubs all in individual subdomains would increase traffic without losing the traffic they already are getting.
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  Sue Adamsposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  That would be great. The profile page would be the home page of each sub-domain. Then perhaps the present "Groups" function could be expanded to transfer certain hubs into the new sub/sub domains, our own categories?
  Neat!
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  sallybeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Sue Adans - that is a great idea. I have several Hubs in a niche subject which were chosen as Editors Choice Hubs and half were not. If all the hubs in one niche subject are not on the same sub domain negatively impact on the others which were not selected as Editors Choice.
  I wish I understood SEO better! This makes me think that the suggestion that we place our Hubs into sub/sub domains makes sense but how would this impact on Editors Choice ones like mine which are already, I believe, in a sub domain of their own, separate from those which are not Editors Choice. Correct me if I am wrong.
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  TIMETRAVELER2posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  sallybea I'm thinking, and I may be wrong about this, that when hubs move into Editor's Choice status, they no longer are part of your subdomain but instead are part of HP's domain. Therefore, the one would not affect the other. The niche you have would actually then be in two different subdomains..theirs and yours.
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  Sue Adamsposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Think of it as a huge tree. HP.com is the main root and stem, each branch is our individual profile pages or sub-domains. Now we are suggesting branching those out into our own categories like for example:
  "http://sue-adams.hubpages.com/lifestyle/how-to-age-gracefully"
  
  The word "lifestyle" in this case would be retrieved from the groups function somehow, followed by the hub title. Shouldn't be too difficult to do. I believe this approach would boost our reputation more so than having several loosely dangling sub-domains on the HP trunk with no way of showing their relevance to the real author.
  
  However, this is off topic and deserves its own thread under suggestions Timetraveller. You started this, we'll support you..
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  Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Sue, I love your idea of starting a suggestions thread. Hope someone jumps on that.
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  Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  TT - you raise a good point. I'd been thinking the sub-subdomain idea might work well. But I had t thought about Editors' Choice designations. I somehow feel that the tech part could eventually be sorted out (with time, money, expertise, etc.), but I wonder how Google's filtering and ranking system would read it? As for the tech part, if someone can invent a way to do what the NSA does (bless their wretched, dishonest little hearts), anything is probably possible. Maybe not economically feasible,, though, from the programming standpoint.
  
  The other thing I'd considered was creating subdomains that have names related to the subject matter. IzzyM is also Shark Facts on this site (hope I didn't blow your cover, Izzy!), and the subdomain itself speaks to the subject matter. I'm leaning toward that idea, but would love more guidance from the staff about moving hubs, or leaving them as-is and using specialize subdomains to link to related hubs. Also, some input about having multiple subdomains to begin with.
  
  If we could create separate subdomain handles from one main account, that would be great. It would roll up our revenue in one payment (or could perhaps), and would be efficient when logging in to check comments, etc.
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  Sue Adamsposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Marcy, I like the idea of relevant domain names very much. We can do that now with new hubs.
  As for grouping existing hubs, I wrote over 30 fitness related hubs and had to create a table of contents hub "Easy Fitness" to guide the reader through the different phases. This worked fine until the linking limit was imposed and it no longer featured on Google. I deleted it for its plummeting hub-score which dragged down my other hubs. There is just no way to categorize our own sub-domain at the mo. Please also read my previous response to TT.
  
  For once a thread worth spending time on... Thanks.
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  Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  This is great insight to how that works, Sue (and thanks for the kind words!). I have never had that many hubs on one topic - when you say a linking limit was imposed, was that by Google? I'd love for someone fluent in the Google part to chime in and explain how that works.
  
  Topic-specific subdomains might work really well for that issue, do you think?
  
  This is getting way OT (sorry!), but do you know whether 'reciprocal' links within our own subdomain can create problems? I've heard that it does not, but Google lives to change the rules. I'm wondering if that's an issue.
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  Sue Adamsposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I think the linking limit is a HP rule. We are not allowed to have more than 2 links to the same sub-domain, i.e. only 2 links to our own related hubs per hub, which makes a table of contents for all my 30 hubs in the same niche impossible.
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  Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You are kidding? I've definitely violated this - I need to check my hubs. I know you can't out more than two links to the same hub, but I hadn't heard the same rule applied to an entire subdomain. Were all links (the index and the links) to or in the same subdomain?
  
  Marye Audet actually wrote a hub once suggesting the index strategy. Maybe Paul E. or someone will see this and clarify.
  
  Thanks for the info!
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  janderson99posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  The maximum of 2 links only applies to an external domain, not to internal linking within HP. I don't know of any number limit and Google allows up to 100, and maybe more but suggests a number well below that
  see http://www.mattcutts.com/blog/how-many-links-per-page/
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  Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks for this link, Janderson - kid heard that linking (reciprocal) within subdomains is nor a healthy thing to do. I wonder if the advent of HP changes that? However, we don't see which hubs are EC, if they're not ours.
  
  The length of a hub would likely matter, too - 100 links from a short hub wouldn't be good. I need to read this, and reread it
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  janderson99posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Ultimately what really matters is the reader. If you have many related links that would be genuinely useful to the reader, on the same topic it would be good to provide them. IMO You may be accused of all sorts of stuff, but happy readers that have the opportunity to read more on the same topic seems OK to me. Often there may be a series of hubs that are closely related. Why not interlink between them? Makes sense to me, but HP calls it 'selfish linking' lowers the QAP score! load of ..AP
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  Sue Adamsposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, of course they were all to the same sub-domain as all my hubs are in the same, account.
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  sallybeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I believe you are correct TimeTraveller, HubPages subdomain and my subdomain. This has long concerned me. The only way to have them in the same domain is to remove their Editors Choice status. I am very reluctant to do this as these Hubs are doing relatively well. I was told never to mess with anything doing well:) Apologies for being off subject.
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IzzyMposted 10 years ago
Just thought I would comment in view of Paul's post about subdomains covering one subject and Marcy's post above mentioning one of mine, having a dedicated subdomain does not stop it from becoming Google-slapped.
Mine suddenly dropped last summer with most of its successful hubs moving to the bottom of page 1. Have no idea why. They are climbing again thanks to most of them shifting on to the main HP domain.
Maybe Hp should drop individual subdomains? They could consider it now that QAP is in place to stop the worst trashy pages from being seen by Google.
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  Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Izzy - I had no idea you'd seen a drop - this is useful to know (but I'm sorry it happened). It's also good to know the change to the main HP domain helped traffic. I have a feeling the advent of EC will eventually help HP gain considerable traction as a site with credibility. On another note, we need to trade messages soon as a follow-up. Miss you, and thinking of you!
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  IzzyMposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You too, hun! Nice to hear from you.
  
  On the subject of internal linking, well my sharkfacts subdomain might be proving a point, or not as the case may be?
  
  I read somewhere that Google likes internal linking to related topics.
  
  So I spent a month...seriously...going over all my hubs on all my subdomains, interlinking related hubs.
  
  After all, why not, wikipedia does very nicely using this tactic!
  
  I even added links to other people's hubs because obviously there is now way I had written that many hubs.
  
  It made no difference to this, my main account, but it made the sharks sub, which was already in Google's good books, fly through the roof.
  For about a year, everything I published on that sub went straight to Google's front page.
  
  Then it wobbled and collapsed.
  
  I'd too much other stuff going on in my real life to worry about it, to be honest.
  
  I know one of the reasons it collapsed was because of a blogspot blogger who had used the exact same keywords as my most successful hub on that account. All my other hubs linked from it, so they also suffered traffic loss.
  
  I know we all slam Blogs ( to a certain degree) but this guy had it right. His blog was excellent, even though that particular post was half the length of mine. He'd homed in on popular keywords and spread it over his domain. He'd become an authority.
  
  Recently, his blog disappeared from search. I don't know if it is gone for good.
  
  Meanwhile, my hubs are edging upwards, even although Wikipedia is now taking the top spot. Their titles are not exact match and they don't answer the searcher's queries, which I have a list of.
  
  On a related theme, someone has written a site, with minimal wording but linking in a group of sites that answer search queries.
  It's not on sharks LOL, but they have linked one of my hubs there. The traffic is nice. Guess it is probably a Facebook viral article.
  
  Maybe we should think less about keywords, and more about what people want to read. I tried combining the two, but if we want massive traffic we need to concentrate on one or the other.
  
  Social traffic can be great, but short-lived or sporadic.
  
  And going back to interlinking, bad idea because other people unpublish hubs leaving broken links, or one of your own articles gets unpublished and you have a while host of problems to track down.
  
  But there is nothing to stop anyone here creating a potentially viral hub by writing an introductory paragraph and then submitting a hub full of weblinks, to other people's articles.
  
  Think: great title. Then re-word the summaries.
  
  I like writing, and searching. I might do this, or I might not because I actually like writing new stuff better.
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  Phyllis Doyleposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You have a good point about EC hubs helping "HP gain considerable traction as a site with credibility." I never thought about that.
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  Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Phyllis, it would be interesting to know how the EC program is affecting the overall performance of the site. I am sure the site crunches and analyzes that data (and it's a work in progress), but sine our hubs have been incorporated, I feel we should have access to that analysis, too, once it is somewhat stable.
  
  From reading comments here, it sounds like there are many different goals or adjunct requests from writers. FYI - I do not care to know WHO makes a certain income, I want metrics on the overall performance of the site regarding revenue to writers. That would include data on the number or percentage of writers (people who published here - not the 'empty' accounts) who make nothing, or very little. I see that as a business-level request for data that can help writers pursuing income know where things stand,
  
  This is not a request for a higher percentage of revenue - I feel the structure is designed to keep the site and its full-time staff operating. But if that is based on thousands of people getting only pennies and only a handful (or less) getting an appreciable stream of revenue, we deserve to know the details.
  
  Some people have no interest in getting this information - that's fine. But some of us have long careers as writers (careers that supported us well). We deserve to know the odds, the ratio and levels of various incomes here, whether years on the site are seen as a factor, whether there are other commonalities, and other measurable data. Then, writers can incorporate any useful elements into their longterm strategies, or make other decisions related to investing time and talent here.
  
  People who see this site as an artistic outlet may view it differently than those who have a history of writing professionally (staff and/or freelance). Similarly, people who sign up thinking all they need to do is to slap up content (in some cases that includes stolen content), view the site and writing itself quite differently than the other two groups.
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  Millionaire Tipsposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I agree. It would be helpful to know what is reasonable to expect in terms of earnings. If I am going to put hours and hours into a site, I would like to know what the payout is likely to be. Averages of income will give you a general ballpark idea even if they can't tell you precisely how much you are going to earn. While it is nice to know that people can still earn $30,000 here, it would be helpful to know what the average is.
  
  Besides knowing whether it is worth your trouble, you also know that you have room for improvement when you aren't close to the average, and you need to figure out what you are doing wrong. I know that I fall in this "room for improvement" category, but I'm not quite sure what I should be focusing on or how much improvement is necessary!
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zsezse4posted 10 years ago
Seems like a wonderful idea! I am a new hubber of about 14 days, and I have 30 featured articles. I mostly write about recipes but occasionally technology and finance as well. These tips would be helpful as to how I should form my hubs and what to expect.
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yourbodyweightposted 10 years ago
Really good questions, I hope HP staff will give a consideration to answering these questions, good luck!
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  Sue Adamsposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  @yourbodyweight & others who haven't read all the posts here.
  Paul Edmodson, our CEO, actually wrote a couple of responses in this thread answering a few of the O.P's questions at these permalinks:
  http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/119588#post2530982
  http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/119588#post2531143
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LongTimeMotherposted 10 years ago
Hello Marcy.

I agree it would be interesting to be given some kind of overview at the end of each year, to provide us all with targets and dreams for the following year. I suspect, however, that it would be overwhelming for many hubbers - particularly those who are new.

I suggest it might be more useful for the average hubber to have access to monthly stats that are simple but give a clear indication of the potential for reaching payout - and then building on their success.

All that would really be required is: -

1) Number of hubbers to reach the $50 payout figure in the preceding month, and

2) Number of hubbers to have been paid in the two (or three) previous months as well.

If a hubber is not managing to reach payout but can see that a significant number of other hubbers received payment, that should provide sufficient motivation to make an effort and improve their own hubs.

It doesn't matter how many hubs it takes or what the topics are or how many years a hubber has been a member. Fact is, people get paid.

Any hubber who is confident they have the skills to write and is prepared to learn what makes good and effective hubs, should be able to earn money here. How much money an individual hubber will ultimately make is impossible to guess.

Seems to me, getting past those first hurdles of receiving payment is the hardest part for most hubbers. Figure out how to get paid the first time and you must be doing something right.
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  TIMETRAVELER2posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Izzy's situation should serve as a warning to the suggestion I made up above. If you have a specified subdomain and someone else sets up a blog or a site with it and becomes popular, you can lose the whole game! That is one caveat I had not considered. On the other hand, if you have several subdomains the others would not go under with the one that did!
  
  As for connecting your "name" with your work...I'm Timetraveler2 and at least half of my hubs relate to the many years I have traveled by RV. If I have other subdomains, however, this "name"generally would not "fit". So this is another consideration: different author names for different subdomains but all under one umbrella account.
  
  Since we already have "groups" in place (which in actuality are basically subdomains) I do not think it would be a big jump to create them into actual subdomains. It's worth a thought, though.
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  IzzyMposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I've got several subdomains now, and usually find when one goes down, another goes up. It's ideal because when I lost the traffic from this sub over 2 years ago, I lost everything. Now my eggs are in a lot of (HP) baskets and the risk is spread out.
  I would not like new users to undergo compulsory training (as suggested on another thread), because obviously each new subdomain marks you as a 'new user'.
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  Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Izzy - that's a good point. I'd thought of that in regards to developing new subdomains, but not in reference to the training issue. I would not want to mess with that each time I created a new identity here. Although, there could be a way to avoid it if HP can filter things by IP address, you think?
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Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years ago
I have an idea that dividing our hubs into additional subdomains could be done at the tech level. Painstaking, in terms of the huge number of writers, but technically possible, it would be great if we could create suggested subdomain names for ourselves, cluster our groups accordingly, and phase them in. Some names might be hard to grab (common topics), but personalizing them could help. Suzy's Cake Recipes, rather than Cake Recipes.

HP could pre-identify a beta group, and then roll it out by groups of writers. I believe it might be possible to retain the existing Google juice in the whole process. Or most of it. This would particularly work for EC hubs. This is just a guess from a non-tech person.

As for our actual names, or an umbrella subdomain - I'd be fine if I became MG123 or whatever number in the MG line I am. Or something.

If Suzy Jones has a recipe for a chocolate delight cake, the URL might read:

Hubpages.suzyscakerecipies.chocolatedelight.SJ412

I volunteer to be a beta tester.
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  TIMETRAVELER2posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Remember that in the groups we already have our articles sectioned according to topic. I would think that creating them into individual subdomains would be a simple matter of creating subdomains out of those groups that somehow link back to the main account to make accounting easier.
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  Glenn Stokposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  No, not really a simple matter. Groups are dynamic. We can change them and move hubs from one to another. Sometimes I even create a new group when I have a bunch of hubs that would be better off combined in a specific group.
  
  Now, the point is, that subdomains are part of the URL, and the last thing you want to do is change the URL once they are indexed in search engines. Yes I realize that this is what happens when a hub is selected as Editor's Choice. But HP creates 301 redirects so the new location can be found from the old URL. If this was to be done for groups, we would end up with 301 redirects going all over the place as we keep moving hubs among groups. It would be a web nightmare for search engine crawlers.
  
  Of course you might say that the answer is to make groups static and not allow changing them once selected. But why limit ourselves.
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  NateB11posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks for making this point, I was thinking something along these lines earlier when reading this thread but couldn't articulate it at the time. I was thinking breaking up subdomains into other subdomains (I don't if that's the correct terminology there) would create a major problem; it would get rid of everything already built up on those Hubs on the search engine, I'd think. And the 301 direct chaos you mentioned too.
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nArchuletaposted 10 years ago
I think it would be highly useful to know what has made high earners successful on Hub Pages. It took me about 8 months to reach 10,000 views here. It took me about 6 WEEKS to reach the same milestone writing about the Colorado Avalanche on Yahoo! Now I have a single article there that bests my overall viewers here by 2,000. That one article is not better than the 60 I have produced here, not by a long shot.

I'd be tempted to move my articles to Yahoo! except they don't turn out as nice-looking as the ones here do. Total article porn at Hub Pages! Also, the Hub tool beats any other publishing tool I have come across, hands down.

(I couldn't resist including a photo -- that's part of the fun at Hub Pages!)
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  TIMETRAVELER2posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  nArchuleta Now you are asking the million dollar question and if we all knew the answer to that one, we wouldn't be having this discussion!
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  Phyllis Doyleposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  We can always go to another very useful and informative page here at:
  http://hubpages.com/authors/best/?page=2
  to see what type of articles the "best hubbers" write and learn from them.
  
  I so agree with you that HubPages has the best publishing tools of any site I have written for, hands down!
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  janderson99posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Many of the 'Best Hubs'
  http://hubpages.com/hubs/best/
  are not written by the 'best hubbers'.
  Traffic, engagement and popularity deserve a mention. It depends which master you serve.
  Many hubs with moderate QAP scores get high traffic, many stellar one get poor traffic.
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jellygatorposted 10 years ago
I have consistently reached payout ever since I completed the apprentice program. I wish I had known before I started writing what I learned there, but eh... whatever.

I wrote a bunch of hubs on relationships. There are few products related to relationships on Amazon and Ebay besides books, and people don't order books much these days. As a result, there aren't many AdSense advertisers competing to place their ads on topics like this, either. The PPC rate is ridiculously low, around $0.10 - $0.14 for each person who clicks on a Google ad from the page.

I've turned my writing toward more profitable search terms that are Amazon friendly. In December, my payout was $83.21 from views. This month, it's at $51.60 so far.

So understanding keyword metrics was one important lesson I learned from the Apprenticeship: Understand how to predict earning power.

Another one: Look for keyword phrases that get more than 600, but less than say, 10,000 searches per month and compare how many results would be returned to a person who's searching for that phrase.. Even though there are tons of relationship searches, there are SO many people writing about them that it's nearly impossible to get top search engine ranking. 50k searches is a huge audience maybe, but if there are 200 million results, what will happen? This will help your search engine placement. There are lots of articles on how to do this, so I won't get into that.

Third, if you can find popular topics that will be popular in the future, AND that have related products, you'll do terrific. There are two of my fellow apprenticeship grads who make a LOT more on their sales than I do. One of them writes a lot on home related projects and uses Amazon links to promote tools and materials that help with the project. Another guy has a knack for figuring out niches in broader topics. So instead of writing something like "Halloween Costumes" he might write about a smaller group of Halloween costumes that would be HIGHER interest to a smaller crowd, like, "Nurse Costumes for Halloween." These two guys usually earn payout from HP AND can hit a hundred bucks or more in Amazon sales.
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  TIMETRAVELER2posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  This is extremely useful information. I kind of knew some of it, but it is so hard to find things to write about that you know and that also meet the criteria you mentioned. I think this is a problem not just for me, but for many who write here. Thanks for sharing this with us.
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