I agree V, what is said in the bible is the truth that extends beyond this life. Unless we open our heart and spirit, we may never understand the bible and everything in it, as we continue to be deceived by the evil one, and to rely only on our own mind and power, when in reality, all good things come from God. It is in the improper use of these things that man creates trouble upon himself. May the light of Christ lead us to the truth in his words, that we all may help weaken and destroy evil in this world which already creates a hell of some sort in our lives as we so chose evil to rule.
Hell, as it exists in the Bible, would make God easily the most evil being possible. Eternal agony with no purpose other than to cause you pain, from which you cannot be redeemed, is completely contradictory with the notion of a loving God.
Also there's no evidence for any afterlife bad or good. No evidence = no reason to believe.
God is loving. Hell was created because of Lucifurs defiance to God.
But someone had to create it. Why not just send satan to hell and cause the hearts of the supposed sinners to like him?
doesn't the Bible say that God hardened pharaoh's heart? If he's capable of altering hearts, why not alter those of the sinners?
This is my dilemma.
Jesus created us to have choices in life. You have a choice to disobey and obey. Adam and eve sinned. So we are born with sin; we can't change that even after we are saved. But because Jesus died on the cross for our sin, He can wipe away our sin.
Satin will be sent to hell and so will all of followers in the end times. If you have read the new testament bible you will know that God is loving. In the old testament it "seems" like God is cruel, but He really isn't. Read your bible a few times and you'll get it.
But Pharaoh didn't have a choice. God hardened his heart.
Adam and Even sinned. So we all have to pay for being born a sinner? Is it our fault we are born in sin?
I've read the Old Testament several times. God still seems harsh. I don't get it.
God hardened his heart so He could show His power to the Israelites. No, it's Adam and Eves fault, but life is not fare, as you probably already know. We do have control over our actions though, but we still sin because we have those evil thoughts in our head, and therefor are capable of doing them.
He does, but He has to because of sin. He must punish sin, you don't see thousands of dieing by God's hand these days because of Jesus. Jesus enabled us to be able to go heaven because he cleans all our sin when we accept it.
Hell just seems to be a pretty harsh punishment for people who were born into a condition they can't help.
So if God can harden or soften hearts for His purpose, why not unharden the hearts of sinnerse so they don't go to hell? I don't get it
Choosing to believe goes deeper than that.
Firstly, God knows the hearts of people. People do not want to know for various reasons:
Rebellion, they simply don't want anything else running their lives. This can also be arrogant pride; they want to rebel against their parents and the best way to do this is to rebel against their god.
Disappointment: God says "seek and ask", but they have done that and not gotten the results they wanted, etc..
Personal wounds: They trusted God and their business went belly up and they are left wondering why did this happen, etc.
Strained human relationships: Mom and dad divorced and things were tough. Parent dying. Abusive parents. Anything along the lines that would hinder belief in a heavenly Father who loves.
Intellectual doubts: 'There are people much smarter than me who did not believe in God, so why should I'. 'The talking snake doesn't make any sense to me and i won't be made to believe it'.
Fear of commitment: God is after all, the ultimate commitment.
Culture: Being born in a muslim country doesn't allow for open minded decisions about what God to serve.
The list goes on.
But God reaches all those who sincerely ask the question, Where are you God? It doesn't matter what country or what situation, if that question is asked because that person honestly wants that question answered. God will respond.
In all cases, it is not what we say that is really the problem. People have to be prodded to 'dig deeper' to be honest with themselves and get to the root of the problem to believe. Most people put up smoke screens to deflect people away from the root of the problem. Some do not want to give up their lifestyle. Some do not want to be called stupid because they heard that from parents and during school. Some do not want to change their career which makes them lots of money - dishonestly. Some are too proud to believe because they need to feel self worth and believing would mean they were wrong and that endorses their notion of self worthlessness.
Then there is an aspect of these same people who have given themselves to their decision not to believe, wholeheartedly and for so long a time, that it has dismantled their ability to believe. They will now gloss over any persuasive evidence, historical documentation, archaeological discovery, even miracles will be reasoned away and this is impossible for God to overcome as i will explain below.
And belief is a choice we must make without having all the information and all the answers beforehand.
So why does God not unharden their hearts? Because God treats people with Intrinsic value and not Instrumental value. God deems us as having worth. Intrinsic value has value if it is good and of itself. Instrumental value, is a means to a determined end. When we treat people as a means to an end we dehumanize them and treat them as things. But when we allow them to be who they are, we are respecting their choices and ultimately, them. And God is no different, He values each one of us, intrinsically. This is why He responds.
@brotheryochanan, do you mind if I ask how you came to believe in what you believe? you seem really sure about it. how do you know for sure of what you believe?
I understand what you wrote above...I'm guessing you're saying that we trust that God knows best and has reasons for what He does. That if we choose to believe Him, we accept that there are things we simply won't know.
Well said brotheryochanan. I could not agree less. God moves in mysterious ways. Many times, man's ego becomes his own downfall. And this has been seen since the time of Adam and Eve, who were not strong enough to curtail their wants.
Alas, the evil one proved smarter than them, as he has always proven in this life, many times over. Until now, are we not allowing ourselves to be duped into submission to sin and evil whenever we deny Christ Jesus, our Redeemer, our True Messiah, our God who has created us all? Will we allow ourselves to fall in hell?
AshtonFirefly. God gave us free will. He has a meek and humble Spirit. It is a free will choice to choose God's way or not. What most do not understand is when God said He was going to harden Pharoahs heart it is because God already knew how Pharoah was going to react.
Going to hell is a choice. A choice of flesh over Spirit.
I'm assuming the choice of flesh would be the ticket to hell. Can you explain what a choice of flesh is?
Choice: One of a number of things from which only one can be chosen... The act of choosing or selecting...
If going to heaven or hell is a "choice" then by definition, I choose neither.
But if Pharoah was already going to act that way, then why would God do anything?
No, it's Adams fault we are born into sin. Being righteous is something we can never fully comprehend because sin is all we know - we were born into sin, or rather, sin entered into the human genome because of Adam and we don't know any different.
We live in a fallen world with unseen but very powerful and hostile entities surrounding us and influencing us, and the only reason that things are not as bad as an all out blood bath, are because the Spirit of God is still in the world keeping these entities at bay. God is still protecting the world, even sinners, atheists and the vile reprobates. However, we are warned that we will reap what we sow and on an individual level God withdraws his protection the deeper we go into sin, and we reap the consequences as well as the people around us. This is why people who do the Ouija board, for example, can very often get possessed by one of these entities. Once you invite something in, you loose protection as a result of your own actions, then, you reap the consequences.
when we look upon the world today with all its fighting, bickering and squabbling, not to mention sickness, disease and suffering, that is what we are seeing. We are seeing the result of sin - plain and simple. In my fallen state I cannot comprehend what it means to be righteous and I have to rely on Jesus - through prayer, reading the bible and having a moment by moment walk, that He will do the required work in me to enable me to understand and be brought closer to his image each and every day, month after month, year after year. Its nothing I or anyone can do by themselves. It's not about trying to lead a good life under your own efforts. There is more going on here than the average person realizes.
Adam was created directly by God and therefore Adam was "of God" but we were born of man, i.e. Adam and Eve. If you remember Eve was created of Adam and not directly by God. It is more than a little interesting that science has verified that the whole human race came from one woman. Can you believe that?
There may seem a lot of things in the bible, that when you first read them, you think, 'no way!' But when you actually look into things, especially some occult practices that are forbidden in the bible such as channeling of spirits, you begin to realize that things like a talking donkey are not such a tall story after all.
See the fallen world and we are all sinners thinking is stuff I can't get behind. I mean there are evil people yes but why have such a negative view on the whole world and all humans? See I don't believe in Ouiji boards or occult magic so yeah I'm probably not going to believe a talking donkey.
I do think it's about leading a good life under our own efforts. When I see some Christians I know ultimately do what they want anyway and act catty or rude I wonder how Jesus is working that in them.
How did science verify the human race came from one woman?
Its not negative at all - it's the truth!
So you think you're good huh? Its easy for us to be a good, moral and upstanding citizens when we live in a society where our every need is catered for. Where feeding our families is as simple as driving to the nearest store to pick up some groceries.
You just wait until people loose that ability and then you will really see a total breakdown in society and moreover, what so-called upstanding members of the community are really capable of. Sadly, if you live in America, that scenario is not more than a year away as the US dollar will certainly implode in the very near future. It's not a question of 'if' any-more but 'when'.
As for other Christians you are totally missing the point. Christianity, just like most religions is full of people who are religious. When I say religious, I mean people who try to placate God by thinking that they have to lead some sort of moral life and suddenly change into Mr/Mrs Goody-two-shoes overnight, to be accepted by God.
You probably know the type, they suddenly stop going out with their friends and find new Churchianity friends to go around with, just so they don't have to think about sin. They think that by not kicking the cat and/or cutting out the f-word, the c-word or any other swear word you can think of, that that makes them Holy.
All they are doing is lying to themselves about who they really are and more important than that, they are lying to Jesus, too.
Jesus doesn't require your BS, He requires total honesty with a person about who they really are on the inside and not just the outside persona that a person generally shows to the rest of the world.
Whether Jesus is working on any particular person will depend on their honesty and openness with the Him as well as their willingness to let Jesus be their Lord and saviour by giving Him free, unfettered access to their life.The thing is about this type of walk, where you are open and honest with father/Jesus about your sin nature and willing to let Him to do the work in you, so that you carry out His will and not yours, requires faith. That is hard. At times it can be a very painful process too.
The truth is it's much, much easier to get into churchianity and pretend that Jesus is working in your life by making the changes yourself. You just sit there, pay your 10%, turn up on Sunday and then on Monday you just kick the cat and do all those things that you normally do, until next Sunday comes around, when you start your acting careerer with all your churchianity buddies by pretending that you are Mr Goody-two-shoes.
Seriously though, my advice there would be not to judge someone who appears to be rude or angry. Anger is not necessarily a sin, in and of itself and you just might be surprised just how Jesus is working in some people.
Jesus has made so many changes to my life and yet, He's only just scratched the surface. Moreover, the things I thought He would fix first He didn't and sometimes He does weird things that I don't understand and only become clear some time after the event. One such thing has happened to me recently but I'm not going to go there...just yet.
Another thing, the bible tells you to beware of what it calls 'wolves in sheep's clothing', whereby they are all nicety, nicety and act like butter wouldn't melt in their mouths, but inside, are like ravaging wolves ready to devour. Sound familiar?
"How did science verify the human race came from one woman?"
Well it comes from the study of mitochondrial DNA and y-chromosomal DNA, which used to trace ancestry because it is mitochondrial DNA that is passed unmixed from mothers to children of both sexes.
To cut a long and drawn out story short, science has found that by studying this DNA that the homo sapien species as it exists today, can be traced back to one common ancestor or woman.
However, I'll be honest, this is not a Creationist finding and they are not going to give up their precious evolution any-time soon. They get round it by saying that just because that the modern species of Homo sapiens appears to come from one woman it doesn't mean that she was the only woman in existence at the time and they go on to give lots of wild assumptions about possible numbers of other women. Its just total BS in my opinion.
"No, it's Adams fault we are born into sin."
Actually... it's God's fault for the following reasons:
1) For creating Lucifer when He knew good and well what he would do, being omniscient and all.
2) For putting the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden before they were "ready" to partake of it.
3) Creating Adam in such a way that he had the ability to choose to eat of the fruit or not eat of it in the first place. Then you say... "God doesn't want robots..."
Just because God selfishly desires for us to worship him/follow him by choice (so he actually feels truly loved/special? I never did quite understand this), doesn't mean he had to create us that way, especially if meant the end result would be eternal torment. Either He is omniscient or He isn't. If He is, He knew the choice they would make, as well as the choice that Lucifer would. He, then, knew Hell would come. And did nothing at the time to stop it for the rest of the offspring He "knew" would come forth. He could've easily written the Devil out of existence along with the fallen angels at the very moment they turned against Him. For what purpose didn't He? Or did He take pleasure in having a place for all the bad, disobedient kiddies to go, and be in torment forever? Be He that vengeful?
If He isn't omniscient, well... there's goes one of his "attributes."
Oh, and Adam and Eve were created with the ability to sin, if they were not, they would not have been able to. Quite a simple point, really. O.O Ponder that one. Is God "punishing" us for His own mistake?
This is also the reason I find it silly that people care that Jesus was tested. If He was born of a virgin and conceived because the Holy Spirit impregnated her, then, he (jesus) was born without the sin nature, right? That's the whole point of a "virgin" birth. It means, then, that no matter what the Devil threw at him during his time of fasting, he would've have done the right thing anyway, because it was IMPOSSIBLE for him to do the wrong thing... Ponder that one, as well.
The God of the Bible is selfish. He's like one of those parents who could do whatever they pleased to/with their children simply because they gave birth to them and feel they own their lives and are justified in whatever action they take. He might cut off a child's arm. Then build a pretty prosthetic one and say "here, it's even more agile and made of gold, but surprisingly light weight!" and you're supposed to grin and bear it and say thank you, as if He didn't just cut off you're frikkin arm. (There's an allusion to Job, here. God made a bet with the Devil. Sucks for Job, and his apparently less significant family members.)
What about the rights of the children? Rubbish. We would never allow parents to continue being parents with a mentality like that in our society. Why? Because it's wrong. Pure and simple.
The question/s you posed, whilst not exactly original, are logically thought out and well defined, but, there are just a couple of problems I foresee with them.
Firstly Lucifer was created perfect and was perfect in his ways:
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
And secondly, whilst your logic is perfectly sound and reasonable, it is indeed human logic and you cannot compare human logic with that of God. In addition, there are so many unknown quantities, that you or I cannot know or even begin to comprehend, and it makes those types of questions fundamentally flawed from the outset. That is not a cop-out, that is just the way it is.
Isa_55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts
However, the question you should have pondered and/or posed, was this: if God is only good and righteous and He created everything, then where does evil come from?
I guess you missed your chance with that one! It would seem both Adam and Lucifer were created perfect but both sinned against God. Its a safe bet to say that evil existed before Adam as Lucifer and his angels were already on the scene. The only questions are how Lucifer came to sin, presumably of his own accord.
Herein lies the answer you are looking for and for me, its an obvious one. If God the father represents the highest power in the universe and He is only Holy and righteous in His nature, then, by going against the highest supreme and righteous being, is an act of evil. However, because God is righteous, he has no choice but to give his created beings free agency to choose.
Its interesting that us humans can clearly envisage evil as murder or rape or something we consider to be major. We don't give it the same credence as a little-white-lie, as we often call them. The irony is that both little-white-lies and murder are both a sin against the creator and by their very definition, both are evil. Only since no one 'seemingly' gets hurt by a so-called little-white-lie we think that that's okay.
Have you noticed that it's only a little-white-lie when we're the one doing the lying, but never when someone else is doing it to us. Funny that!
Therefore I put it to you that the very essence of evil is to disobey God, who is the ultimate supreme power of righteousness in the known universe and beyond.
I dare ask what it means to be created perfectly, if you can then sin of your own accord. What is meant by perfection? If sin/evil is a possibility, something out of God's control, if it can apparently affect the "perfectly made," then those who fall victim to it should not be punished eternally for it.
And the "my thoughts are higher than your thoughts and ways higher than yours" is a cop out, sorry. There are some things that really aren't that complicated, especially not for someone who can speak things into and out of existence, supposedly.
Is God omnipotent? What does it mean to be so? If He can create something, why not destroy it just as easily? There are plenty of examples of God "opening up the Earth" for little humans who did bad things in the OT. Why not just snap His fingers and make the Devil and bad angels disappear? (The issues of good and evil are better explained in Eastern religions, in my opinion, however I do not subscribe to any of them, just the idea of yin and yang intrigues me).
Anyway, it's no excuse.
Apparently God gave me this brain, shouldn't I use it? No matter how complicated we try to make it, erasing the Devil should be an easy fix for an omnipotent God. If He is not omnipotent, then there goes another one of His attributes.
Oh, and a woman named Rahab is praised in the Bible for telling a lie, because it saved the lives of two spies. So obviously, her lie was labeled "ok." There are circumstances where lies can protect people. Huge complicated ones, or ones that do more harm than good should be avoided, but to be so much of a stickler about it really helps no one but yourself.
Why are you not getting this? First off, I gave you a declaration stating that we are both (underline both) not seeing the full picture and we probably only have just a little insight to go on. This is because we cannot comprehend the nature of God or know all the conditions about the real world that exists beyond the known universe as well as understand the true meaning of divinity. You see it as a cop out?
If you examine the 'question nuance' with an open mind and an honest heart you can surely comprehend that it is not possible for beings that exist within a four dimensional space-time continuum, to fully understand eternity and the true nature of divinity, that is, the existence outside of time and space, coupled with the true nature of God. Is it that an unreasonable assumption to make given the nature of the conversation? No! I don't think so.
So, with that in mind I will now go on to answer the questions posed, in the best way I can with the understanding that God has given me already. Firstly, Lucifer was a created being, that is he was created with an eternal soul, just like we are. Only Lucifer was a covering Cherub and was created much, much higher than we are.
Now, I don't truly understand what it means to be a created being with an immortal soul - even though I am one. Moreover, I/we don't understand the nature of immortality in relation to God. E.g. is it even possible for God to snuff-out (as you put it) an existence once it has been created? I have already pointed out that there are things that God cannot do such as lie or sin and therefore, He does have limitations according to His nature, of which we have limited understanding. Do you see why we are walking on shaky ground - so to speak?
Having said that, this is my take on the situation and for me, why God cannot snuff-out Lucifer. Firstly though, you are assuming that if Lucifer and his demonic cohorts were to be snuffed out tomorrow, that all sin would suddenly stop and people would see things in a new light. At least that's what you seem to be suggesting.
Yes I know Lucifer and his legions of demonic underlings are the source of [all?] the evil in the world but the 100, 000,000 dollar question is - is he the only source and does man himself have a bigger part to play than perhaps his ego would like to suggest? I give you:
1) God created the world and gave it to Adam.
2) Satan/Lucifer took it from Adam - not by force but by deception.
Remember that Satan offered to give Jesus all the kingdoms of the world if He (Jesus) bowed down and worshipped him (Satan). The question is, how can Satan give something that is not his to give? If I said to you that I would sell you the Federal Reserve for 100 bucks - what would you say? You would probably tell me to get stuffed and that I didn't own the Federal Reserve, and you would be quite right in saying so. Well, by the same token, Jesus never challenged Satan's ownership of the world - so what does that tell you?
Why didn't God just step in and say get out of it Satan you deceiver, I'm going to snuff out your existence once and for all?
Again, do you think you are the only one with intelligence enough to have asked that question? Don't you think that countless of other believers have also asked the same question? The answer to that second question is probably no. People of your ilk have demonstrated to me time and time again an arrogance and pride in that they come out with half-truths, misinformation and even outright lies and believe that people who have faith in Jesus and the bible, simply and blindly follow what it says in a book for no apparent reason, other than they are stupid or have simple minds. That to me, the the height of arrogance.
The answer is that either God cannot snuff out an immortal life once it has been created or that there is something about God's nature or righteousness that prevents God from violating His own Laws, and for me, that last possibility is closer to the truth - given that we don't yet have the full picture.
When Jesus died on the cross, He did more than provide a way out of Hell and more importantly, a way that all men can be reconciled back to God. By living a sinless life and by fulfilling the law in it's entirety, He won the title deeds to the earth from Satan. What Satan took by deception, Jesus has taken back through righteousness.
Next He's coming back to claim what is His, and I have to say it - that is not far away. Month by month bible prophesy is being fulfilled and the vast majority are oblivious to it because they don't know God and they don't know the bible. All they see are the results of man-made religion, and just like yourself and lots of others in this forum, cannot distinguish between God and man-made religion, and instead, they buy into the lies on which secular society has become based.
"Oh, and a woman named Rahab is praised in the Bible for telling a lie, because it saved the lives of two spies. So obviously, her lie was labeled 'ok'."
No. You are in error because you do not understand the bible correctly. That particular part of the bible is an account of an historical event (Rahab helping two spies), regardless of whether you or anyone else sees it as such, and as such does not give an account as seen from the eyes of God. In other words, the events in which you refer to, do not invalidate God's judgement in anyway. I can only conclude that in desperation to muddy God's name and invalidate the bible that you are scraping the bottom of the proverbial barrel on this one.
Furthermore, it only reinforces the valid statement put out by people such as myself, that , people such as yourself, do not understand the bible but will quite happily throw around nonsense and misinformation just as long as it misguides other people. Clearly then, the truth has little to do with it.
The truth is that the bible is full of imperfect people with glaring faults and weaknesses. Moses killed a man as did King David in order to sleep with his (the man he killed) wife. The fact that that, or any other story, is documented in the bible does not necessarily condone any of and/or all their actions that are portrayed. The bible is not full of righteous people, like people of your ilk would have people believe. Its full of real people having real issues with sin and faith, like they do today.
Believe it or not, I have no problems with people that will not accept Jesus and its not about converting people. my only problem is with people who will not accept Jesus based on myths and lies.There is nothing I can say here that will convert someone. But maybe, just maybe, I can start someone on the road to searching for the truth themselves.
"If you examine the 'question nuance' with an open mind and an honest heart you can surely comprehend that it is not possible for beings that exist within a four dimensional space-time continuum, to fully understand eternity and the true nature of divinity, that is, the existence outside of time and space, coupled with the true nature of God."
And yet, you are here arguing with me about it because you think you have some kind of grand grasp on it. I am Agnostic, the epitome of how truly unknowable such things are, based on ego, subjectivity, and the like...
"Having said that, this is my take on the situation and for me, why God cannot snuff-out Lucifer. Firstly though, you are assuming that if Lucifer and his demonic cohorts were to be snuffed out tomorrow, that all sin would suddenly stop and people would see things in a new light. At least that's what you seem to be suggesting."
I'm talking about from the very beginning, not now. Similar to the idea of opening up the Earth and swallowing people, an immediate reaction. As soon as they turned against Him, He should have wiped them out instead of casting them out, which either He chose not to do, or was unable to do.
"People of your ilk have demonstrated to me time and time again an arrogance and pride in that they come out with half-truths, misinformation and even outright lies and believe that people who have faith in Jesus and the bible, simply and blindly follow what it says in a book for no apparent reason, other than they are stupid or have simple minds. That to me, the the height of arrogance."
Um, actually I used to be a Christian, and I never said any of that...
"Furthermore, it only reinforces the valid statement put out by people such as myself, that , people such as yourself, do not understand the bible but will quite happily throw around nonsense and misinformation just as long as it misguides other people. "
You're making a lot of unjustified statements and accusations. People like me? What am I like, exactly? I know for a FACT, being a former devout Christian and all, that especially within my former denomination, there are plenty of woman who actually consider Rahab to be one of the women of God to admire.
"The bible is not full of righteous people, like people of your ilk would have people believe. Its full of real people having real issues with sin and faith, like they do today. "
I never said this, and know that perfectly well... You are grouping me in with other people that you've observed or had conversations with. We are all individual people, no matter how often we come to similar conclusions and make similar statements, we are not all the same little children of the Devil that you think we are (based on your scripture) and like to label us to be all the same. People of "my lik." You sound arrogant yourself, miss.
"My only problem is with people who will not accept Jesus based on myths and lies."
I won't accept Jesus anymore based on what I now believe to be myths and lies, you're right. And what does it matter if you have a problem with me. I don't have a problem with you, but I will challenge something said if I believe it to be false.
God, now I know what I must've sounded like to Redbeard. Sorry, man!
You're making a lot of unjustified statements and accusations. People like me? What am I like, exactly? I know for a FACT, being a former devout Christian and all, that especially within my former denomination,
Devout Christian? Whenever someone calls themselves a devout Christian it nearly always means that they are anything but, and that in reality, they are just religious and doing nothing more than going through the motions of Churchianity man/woman.
I don't want to be rude to you or anything, but its people like you, who really should know better, that exasperate me the most. Do you really think that because you once claimed to be Christian that it gives you some sort of dispensation from criticism ? In fact, I'm sure that for you, hell will be far hotter and more severe than for the non-believers and atheists, of which I have far more respect for, than people who once claimed to be religious and therefore, are supposed to have some sort of handle on the truth. As far as I'm concerned you are all part of the problem in that you proclaim to know the truth but your deeds and actions dictate otherwise.
I put it to you that you were never a believer to begin with. Just a religious person. Yes I am a zealous person - I'm zealous for Jesus and I'm zealous for the truth, and sometimes, that means saying things that people don't like. I'm sorry if I say anything to offend you but by the same token I must speak the truth.
You have already shown me with an example of Rahab that you do not have an understanding of the bible. Yet, you claim that you will not accept Jesus based on what you now believe to be myths and lies? I don't think that you have a very good track record to determine what is a myth or a lie when you cannot even get the story of Rahab right. Ironically, that is what made me think you were from the atheist camp.
So tell me, what exactly are those myths and lies that you claim Jesus is based on? I really would like to have some understanding of where you are coming from!
And yet, you are here arguing with me about it because you think you have some kind of grand grasp on it.
Yes I'm living it!
Doesn't mean I'm perfect and that I always get it right but where I error (nearly always when pride gets in) I pray that Jesus lets me know in no uncertain terms - and he does, usually.
In addition, where I don't know something and/or there are limitations in the scope of knowledge, as you can see, I have been honest enough to state them upfront, in order to be as objective as I can be - given the nature of the conversation. Which, is a lot more than I can say for you.
I don't know why I can't reply to you, VB_Coder. But you are an awful person. You don't know a thing about me. And I won't continue to be insulted by a person like you. You don't know sh*t, and you can take your callous words elsewhere, but I am not interested in continuing a conversation with someone like you.
Probably the same reason I cannot reply to you...
My callous words? perhaps you would like to point out where I was callous? You're right about one thing, though, I don't know much about you - but I know you're wrong, and I know you were just a religious person who never knew Jesus anymore than I know the President of the United States.
Interestingly, me knowing Obama would not get me past security and into the Whitehouse, but if Obama happened to know me, then that would be sufficient for me to gain entry - a bit like the kingdom of God. Jesus is that gatekeeper and you can only get in through Him - does He know you? Or will you still be denying His existence, life, death and resurrection as lies when you stand before Him?
So much for being devout! Didn't do you a lot of good, did it? That's what Churchianity does to people - just like the blind leading the blind, sooner or later, they fall into the ditch of lost faith because they never truly had any to begin with. Just lots of rules and regulations to follow.
The words that I would like to say to you would get my page on hub pages deleted. However, all of this that you're spouting out at me reminds me of one the main reasons that I don't want to go back to being a Christian. I sounded just like you in forums sometimes, and God, I wish I could find every single person I ever behaved this way towards and get on my knees in front of them and apologize from the core of my being.
If you can't see your callousness, something will come your way and shove it in your face, tenfold, hopefully, and maybe it won't, which will be really, really sad for you. Or then again, maybe it would be good, because you'd be able to stay in your happy little world.
"The words that I would like to say to you would get my page on hub pages deleted.
Well only if I reported you but I won't because I am not that callous. I would rather you say it than think it. I know my words cut you like a knife and I am sorry for that, but I had to speak the truth, nevertheless.
"I sounded just like you in forums sometimes, and God, I wish I could find every single person I ever behaved this way towards and get on my knees in front of them and apologize from the core of my being. "
No! If you sounded like me then you would not be wrong and we would not be having this discussion. Whilst I have no doubt that you were passionate in forums and stood your ground, the trouble is that you had no real belief in the things you were saying, even if you thought you did at the time.
In other words, you may have believed in Jesus from your 'mind' because it sounded plausible at the time, or whatever reason you had. But you didn't believe in Jesus from the very heart of your being. I'm not saying this to belittle or put you down in any way, but its true. You are just angry with yourself because you think you believed a lie and that you were stupid or duped in some way. Moreover, you are angry at father Jesus because He didn't do things like you wanted Him too. You were religious and invented a 'God' in your own mind that obeyed your way of thinking and when your thinking got found out...you got angry.
You are like the seed that fell on stony ground. You endured for a while but had no root in you. That is, there was nothing (no real belief) to base your religious behavior on, and you were just going through the motions of playing Churchianity until your brain caught up with what was really inside of your heart. Hardness.
"Or then again, maybe it would be good, because you'd be able to stay in your happy little world."
My happy little world? You don't have the fist clue and it only goes to prove to me that you were just a religious person. So you think my world is a happy one huh? I think that you think, that I blindly believe and never question anything. Even now there are some things that I doubt and to reach out in faith is the hardest thing that anyone can do. It's akin to leaping off a cliff face in the dark, in the hope that some one will catch you. It takes guts. It takes faith and you don't get that kind of faith by going through the motions every Sunday morning and paying your 10%, like a good little churchianity person.
Following Jesus is hard and it will take everything that you have in you, and then some more besides. Jesus said take up your cross and follow me. He didn't say take up your pew, sit down and relax. The Apostle Paul likened it to a race to be run. Jesus even said himself that there would be a cost to following Him and also, that we would have trials and tribulation in this life.
don't sit there and tell me that you were devout, you're talking to the wrong person. Save it for someone who will believe that you were some kind of authority on the subject because it suits them to do so, so they too, can get the daggers out.
The truth is that I question many, many, things. I doubt many things but there is one thing that I do not doubt and that that Jesus was exactly who He said he was and at the end of the day, that is the only thing I need and is the only thing I cling to, because without that, none of this is right and makes no sense and we can all pack up and go home and live our lives for ourselves.
Okay here is the deal. If you can persuade me that Jesus was a lie like you say, and that His whole ministry was based on myths, then I will publicly denounce Jesus and my faith in this forum. Good luck!
No, you won't. The reason why is that you will never accept anything that will shake the foundations of your belief system, no matter how much factual evidence is produced.
Oh yes I will. If what she is saying is so profound and I haven't heard it before, then I will denounce it. Yes it is unlikely, as I have heard just about every criticism of Jesus and the bible that there is, and all, bar none, have been debunked. However, she seems pretty convinced and there is a lot of hatred there so maybe, she has stumbled upon something that I haven't heard of before.
If so, bring it on! I won't lie to you that it's a tall order on her part and the chances of her coming up with something that has any substance to it is virtually zero. However, I can honestly say that if she truly has anything that I haven't heard and she does persuade me then I will do as I have promised. If is a big word but nevertheless, the ball is in her court and she should at least put her money where her mouth is.
Here are my main issues with what what you've said about me. Now that I've had the chance to calm myself, I can say what I need to see as I need to say it, without having to use any unpleasant words.
"No! If you sounded like me then you would not be wrong and we would not be having this discussion. Whilst I have no doubt that you were passionate in forums and stood your ground, the trouble is that you had no real belief in the things you were saying, even if you thought you did at the time."
1) You seem to know a lot about me while knowing little to nothing. I have starting doing this again, and this mere conversation between us has helped to find that, and so thanks for that, at least.
You know absolutely nothing about what my "relationship" with God was. This is a fact. You can believe all day that by my word choice and the very little about my "walk" that I actually mentioned, that I did not believe all that I believed with my very heart and you'd be WRONG.
In all honesty, you literally have no right to say how sincere it was or it wasn't. I was so overly in love with God, that sometimes I would ask Him to kill me if I was ever foolish enough to leave His side. I was not just a church goer or just going with the flow. I had a serious moment, when I was lying on the floor, in tears, after having "realized" how I really was a sinner and how I really needed to seek God out change my life. And I did. And it was a process. And I made plenty of mistakes. But I was sold on one thing, for sure. That Jesus Christ was the Son of God, my Saviour, and that eventually I was going to have to forfeit all of my EVERYTHING to Him. I prayed, not just to pray and say "ok I prayed," well, I did do that sometimes, but not all of the time. But, I usually prayed because I genuinely wanted to get to know God better, and I genuinely believed that He heard me, and that He would speak to me through His scriptures and through what happened around me (quite self-centered I was, really). Anyway. I began cutting away at things in my life. The type of music I listened, the the types of people I would let be closest to me, the kind of TV programs I watched, the amount of time I spent doing things that had nothing to do with "God."
I was literally convinced. Every part of me.
Sometimes I was frightened to share that faith, but who hadn't experienced that? There were times when I did it boldly. I was a part of two youth ministries, a leader in both, which I didn't even want to be, but was made so, because if there was anybody who'd be willing to do something, it was me, and they made me one. And I wasn't on some power trip. I tried to humble myself as much as possible and would do anything that people needed me to do. I wasn't anywhere near perfect, and I had my "struggles," but I was willing to give up everything that made me "me" in order to become more like Jesus. That was my goal. Because the view I had of Jesus was perfection, and I was taught that God wanted us to look more like Him. I felt as though the Holy Spirit spoke to me, and asked to do things, or told me not to. When I didn't listen, I felt bad about it. I always beat myself up about it, but someone who was a leader above me told me I should be harder on myself than anyone else, and I was. I fasted and I prayed. I went on trips to share Jesus with people and feed the homeless. I gave up things that I loved so that I could be closer to God. I was not just some person who went to church on Sundays, Tuesdays and Wednesdays. I was not just convinced in my mind. I was convinced in my heart, and everyone around me knew it in some form or another, because I wasn't afraid to show it.
"However, she seems pretty convinced and there is a lot of hatred there so maybe, she has stumbled upon something that I haven't heard of before."
2) Concerning the steps which led me away from the faith, I will be sharing that story in a hub. LoL, hatred. Yea, there was serious hatred about a year ago. Now it's disdain at the notion of a "loving" God being the one found in the Bible.
"If so, bring it on! I won't lie to you that it's a tall order on her part and the chances of her coming up with something that has any substance to it is virtually zero. "
3) There is nothing that I can prove to you. Especially with words like "bring it on," and "it is virtually zero," and such. Nor do I wish to prove anything to you. Just like the dogmatic non-religious, you are a dogmatic religious person. You can only see things from your limited perspective, which is why any evidence I throw your way, you would eventually manage to find "evidence" against it. It is the same for the non-religious. They, too, when evidence of just the idea of a divine or intelligent reality/being/something of the sort is thrown their way. While I am not an Atheist for the mere fact I believe it impossible to say that there isn't some form of transcendence that we haven't truly gotten a grasp on yet, I also will never again subscribe myself wholly to any religion, and am not really looking to. I believe, if anything, the true nature of the transcendent is hinted at in more eastern "religions," such as Taosim, but I'm not completely sold, and that is another conversation entirely.
I think any religion allowing for serious disunity between it's members has some serious issues and you can't blame it only on the members.
4) When I said your happy little world, i did not necessarily mean it was full of rainbows, and that not a bad thing or tough situation comes your way, and that you go around singing lalala all day.
What I meant was that joy. You know the joy we read about, that we feel that surpasses all human undersanding. The assurance that comes from "knowing" that 1) you are right with God, and 2) that you will be sharing the rest of Eternity with Him. What I meant by happy, is not being tortured by the ones that tortured me, because, before even giving them any thought, you would probably pray them away, and/or analyze yourself, figure out why they're coming up, and "consult" the Holy Spirit on the matter. But I do not do this. I think what I think now. No fear of being struck by lightning, or entertaining the things of the Devil, etc. What I meant by happy, was, even if thrown in a situation where you might be stoned like the man Stephen or Steven, however it's spelled, in the Bible, you would look and smile with a look on your face that you feel like no one but you and God can understand. That's what I meat by "happy."
Again, you know absolutely zilch about me, and you would do well to humble yourself before people, instead of making presumptions with no true evidence to back up what you're saying.
I remember telling a man who had been a preacher for 20 years once that he must've ever truly loved God or believed in him for the same reasons you say what you say to me. I wish I had actually had a one on one conversation with him, allowing him to give me an account of what actually went on in his life, instead of assuming I knew exactly what was going on, because of that very passage you're using on me, and multiple others, and how at the time, I found it unthinkable that anyone as convinced as I was certain I was, could ever turn away from God, without me having the real proof to back up such a statement.
Firstly, I just want to say, that whatever you think of me, I don't hate you or feel any animosity towards you whatsoever. Okay, now that is out of the way - lets get down to business!
"You seem to know a lot about me while knowing little to nothing."
I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic at all, but, either way, I will draw some comfort from that - thanks!
"I have starting doing this again, and this mere conversation between us has helped to find that, and so thanks for that, at least."
Thank you, I'm glad it has helped you in some sort of way.
"You know absolutely nothing about what my "relationship" with God was. This is a fact. You can believe all day that by my word choice and the very little about my "walk" that I actually mentioned, that I did not believe all that I believed with my very heart and you'd be WRONG."
Your right I really don't know anything about you, what you look like, your habits, your favourite colour, food etc, but I don't really have to in order to understand some fundamental psychology, coupled with your existing relationship with God to know that, or infer, things about your past relationship, in the same way that I don't have to know anything about a man or woman that has recently got divorced, other than that their past relationship was not as it should be, otherwise they would never have gotten divorced in the first place.
Sorry but it's not possible for someone to believe with all their heart and soul, from the very core of their being like you were supposed to, and then to turn round and deny everything. I have no doubt, though, that you sincerely believed, that you believed with all your heart. Of that I am sure.
Jer_17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
It is so true, in that our hearts are so wicked and deceitful and if anyone knows the truth in that statement, it is me. So please don't think that I am pointing fingers at you with reference to that scripture, because I am not.
"I had a serious moment, when I was lying on the floor, in tears, after having "realized" how I really was a sinner and how I really needed to seek God out change my life. And I did. And it was a process. And I made plenty of mistakes. But I was sold on one thing, for sure. That Jesus Christ was the Son of God, my Saviour, and that eventually I was going to have to forfeit all of my EVERYTHING to Him."
Jesus Christ, STILL IS, the son of God despite what you now have come to believe. He STILL IS, your saviour and He STILL IS the only way to come to the Father. There is one thing that bothers me though, and that is, that you say you were 'sold' on the idea. Who sold you the idea in the first place?
In fact, there are quite a few things that bother me about what you have written and I will do my best to try to address them. However, they all lead to one conclusion though, and that is, that I am right in some of the things I am saying. Jesus said that you will know a tree by it's fruits. Despite, your sincerity about coming to Jesus, and I believe that you believed what you said, but what has happened to your fruits? Something went wrong for you and I know that you have been a victim of Churchianity and that it's not really your fault, but the most saddest thing about this, is that you have thrown the proverbial baby out with the bathwater, so to speak.
"I was a part of two youth ministries, a leader in both, which I didn't even want to be, but was made so, because if there was anybody who'd be willing to do something, it was me, and they made me one."
This makes me so angry and more than justified in my stance on Churchianity. You've had burdens placed upon you that you should never have had. Not only burdens of a so-called youth ministry but also other burdens related to sin, too. More of which I will speak about later...
American and English Christianity is so wrong. They think that if you say a prayer one time, then you will be saved no matter what, and this whole idea that you can 'convert people' like some 'Borg assimilation' is laughable. In my opinion the best anyone can hope to do as regards to converting someone, is tell them about Jesus. But you will never convert them by getting them to repeat some prayer. Converting/convicting people is the work of the Holy Spirit, that is, to reveal the truth of Jesus Christ, to the hearts of men as well as to convict of sin. You, me or anyone else will never do that. Yet time and time again, the so called church, who really should know better, tries to bypass the work of the Holy Spirit in order to get bums on seats or pews as they are called.
is it any wonder that Jesus said that:
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
"Anyway. I began cutting away at things in my life. The type of music I listened, the the types of people I would let be closest to me, the kind of TV programs I watched, the amount of time I spent doing things that had nothing to do with "God."
What you have just described to me is Churchianity 101! All of the above is just plain wrong, and if I can do anything today, it would be to convince you of that. But first, what I am not saying is, that it is okay to go on living after your own lusts, and when I say lusts I don't just mean sexual, although, that would certainly be included.
Don't you see that you were putting yourself in an impossible position from the outset as well as bypassing the work of Jesus on the cross? It's not for you to save yourself by your own works. You cannot become your own lord and saviour by any stretch of the imagination.
Each and every one of us are born with a certain disposition towards sin, that is, we all have our own particular sins in which we partake. some are 'biggies' and some are what we may 'wrongly' term as "little sins" like lying because we mistakenly think that because it "doesn't really hurt anyone" that that's okay, notice the inverted commas?
Firstly though, God doesn't have a scale of sins, where for example, a murder gets more penalty points than someone who tells a lie, and secondly, even just desiring a sin in your heart, is tantamount to doing it. So what then? This is surely an impossible situation? There is no one on this earth that can be that good or that perfect! I cant! So who then, can be saved? Jesus's answer? With man this impossible but with God all things are possible!
The point is that we all have sins that are so deep-rooted, they are part of our make-up and there is just no way that we can control them, in and of ourselves, under our own efforts. The breaking of a persons sin (and/or the power or hold that sin has on a person) - is a supernatural one and chruchianity man/woman would do well to recognise this. Coming to Jesus does not mean that you have to give up 10 things you love and replace them with 10 things you hate, in a useless attempt to make yourself righteous before God.
Yes God wants us to to give up sin and be brought closer to the image of Jesus but that does not come about by superficial means. He does not want anyone's BS pretence, whereby a person merely abstains from the offending behaviour whilst still desiring it in his/her heart, He wants a total change of heart, which in time, brings about the required behaviour.Why do you think Jesus said that if a man even looks at another woman with lust in his eyes then he (that man) has already committed the act of adultery in his heart?
The true gospel of Jesus talks about a change of heart, not just abstinence from sin, there is a difference and it is an important one. When I first came to Jesus I found out the hard way the difference between abstinence and giving my sins to Jesus, to let Him work in my life so that any change that takes place, is a supernatural one, rather than a forced one through religion.
There are a few problems with letting Jesus take the reigns of your life:
1) It is, without doubt, the hardest thing you will ever do!
2) Things don't go the way you expect them to go.
3) You will suffer pain and/or anguish at some point in your walk.
4) The closer you draw to Jesus the greater the chance of a nasty spiritual attack and when they happen, you will be in no doubt about a hostile enemy, and powers and principalities at work. No doubt whatsoever!
The only way a person will ever do this is through giving all their burdens to Jesus, whether they be burdens of sin or life or both. There is no other way, except to trust in Him totally, through the trials and tribulations and through that which you will suffer at some stage. He is the true artist and we are the clay and oftentimes, the only way a person can truly overcome their sin nature is through severe adversity. The flesh is the flesh and it doesn't give up without a fight. If a person suffers severe adversity they should rejoice because the saviour of the universe is at work in them.
I have lost count of the times I have swore at father Jesus and called Him all sorts of names and questioned what he is doing. Why, is a question that I have often asked? Which is normally followed by "don't you know you are a stupid idiot" or worse. I dare say that Mr or Mrs Churchianity man/woman would question a person who spoke to Jesus like that. But all such people have, is fake sincerity. That is not a true relationship. It's about your honesty with your creator and yourself about what you really are inside, not pretending that you are something you are not. How does anyone seriously expect father Jesus to work in their life when they cant even be honest with Him and themselves in the first place.
That is why if you don't truly believe in Jesus from the outset, you have a problem. You are just going through the motions and nothing more. You are simply following your own paths, or listening to other people, who themselves don't have a clue either. Their pastor probably doesn't have a clue, such is the nature of Churchianity and the government controlled, political movement it has become. As a good friend of mine once said, "people need to get out of Churchianity and get with the Jesus program!"
"I think any religion allowing for serious disunity between it's members has some serious issues and you can't blame it only on the members."
Sorry, but you CAN blame it on the members and for the reasons that I have already outlined. Look, there is only one bible, one truth and one way to the Father. Its not Father Jesus fault that mankind is so wicked that he takes the scriptures and twists them to his own ends. Why don't you understand that the true Church of Jesus Christ is denomination-less?
2Pe_1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
In other words, the Holy spirit is the only interpreter of the bible and not man or his logic or lateral thinking, as fascinating as that sometimes is. You will always get disagreement between Churchianity types and moreover, each one claims to have the Holy spirit as their guide. Well, at the end of the day, only one is right and the others are wrong and will stand before Jesus in judgement some day. In that day many will say Lord, Lord have we not...
Rom 3:4 Let it not be! But let God be true, and every man a liar; as it is written, "That You might be justified in Your sayings, and will overcome when You are judged." (please note, the context of this verse is within a 'works Vs faith' discussion.)
"Again, you know absolutely zilch about me, and you would do well to humble yourself before people, instead of making presumptions with no true evidence to back up what you're saying."
I have evidence to back up what I am saying. Jesus said you will know them by their fruits. What are your fruits? The direct denial of Jesus and the bible? Do I really need any more evidence than that?
"Each and every one of us are born with a certain disposition towards sin, that is, we all have our own particular sins in which we partake. some are 'biggies' and some are what we may 'wrongly' term as "little sins" like lying because we mistakenly think that because it "doesn't really hurt anyone" that that's okay, notice the inverted commas?"
Yes, I prayed on these little things and asked God to change them in me. You must understand, I use different word choice BECAUSE I am no longer a believer. (Obviously I don't believe the Holy Spirit did it anymore, so I wouldn't say someone I don't believe in made me go through these changes). I prayed even on the little sins, always asking "Him" to reveal any more to me that I may have been blind to. My "disposition" as you put it, was towards pornography and lust in general, which I "prayed" constantly about, that the desire for it would change and not necessarily that I would just stop doing it, but that's "hold" on me, if you will, would change. And it did. ( I understand those things differently, now, however)
"What you have just described to me is Churchianity 101! All of the above is just plain wrong, and if I can do anything today, it would be to convince you of that."
Why is that wrong? Be these not little sins? What about that scripture that talks about idle chatter (I believed it to mean more than conversations) leading to more ungodliness? I wanted for these things to be out of my life for multiple reasons. If I felt I was making it more important than time with God. Would Jesus would approve of the program I was watching, or the music I was listening to? What was the "holy Spirit" telling me to do about the matter? Etc etc.
What about proverbs on being unequally yoked and all of the other "wisdom" in there about friendships? What about knowing your own strength as a person, and who would influence you in "bad" ways? Jesus may have kept the company of men who were seen as the worst or least important kind, but would he have kept company with men who were constantly bickering and completely rude and ridiculous and not willing to follow any of his teachings, etc. The closest company you keep is very important. You should not shun or avoid unbelievers, but share Christ with them in not only words, but actions... is what I was taught, anyway.
"But first, what I am not saying is, that it is okay to go on living after your own lusts, and when I say lusts I don't just mean sexual, although, that would certainly be included."
Nothing new here...
"Yes God wants us to to give up sin and be brought closer to the image of Jesus but that does not come about by superficial means. He does not want anyone's BS pretence, whereby a person merely abstains from the offending behaviour whilst still desiring it in his/her heart, He wants a total change of heart, which in time, brings about the required behaviour.Why do you think Jesus said that if a man even looks at another woman with lust in his eyes then he (that man) has already committed the act of adultery in his heart?"
It was my time in prayer and the walk I was walking that even made me want to give up those things... It wasn't like Lent...
"God doesn't have a scale of sins, where for example, a murder gets more penalty points than someone who tells a lie, and secondly, even just desiring a sin in your heart, is tantamount to doing it. God doesn't have a scale of sins, where for example, a murder gets more penalty points than someone who tells a lie, and secondly, even just desiring a sin in your heart, is tantamount to doing it. "
Did I say I believed that? We were always taught this...
"Why don't you understand that the true Church of Jesus Christ is denomination-less?"
Whoever said that I didn't? I only say the one that I was a part of one because I was affiliated with said church and people in the states better identify with that. I always told people that my church was baptist, and my ministry somewhat pentecostal/baptist mix, but that I considered myself non-denominational. Denominations are simply labels describing the distinguished beliefs of those there in. Any American christian would know almost exactly what I meant by that, which is why I mentioned it.
"In other words, the Holy spirit is the only interpreter of the bible and not man or his logic or lateral thinking, as fascinating as that sometimes is."
Personal interpretation is unavoidable due to the existence of the human ego. Your God should know this. You believe that the other people who are as "genuine" as you all believe the same exact things as you?
"Sorry, but you CAN blame it on the members and for the reasons that I have already outlined. Look, there is only one bible, one truth and one way to the Father."
Why would something God breathed be ambiguous enough for seriously different sects to be formed? I didn't say man didn't have any fault. But that is not ONLY man's fault, in this case...
You should read the forum "why jews don't believe in Jesus." It'll shed some more light on interpretation of scriptures leading to your faith.
"I dare say that Mr or Mrs Churchianity man/woman would question a person who spoke to Jesus like that. But all such people have, is fake sincerity. That is not a true relationship. It's about your honesty with your creator and yourself about what you really are inside, not pretending that you are something you are not."
Job got reprimanded for that. His response to God may have been deemed "better" than how his friends responded to the situation, but God's response was basically sit down and shut up, don't talk me like that, I created the very air you are breathing.
People in the OT were swallowed whole by the earth, turned into pillars of salt, etc. Of course people would still be afraid enough of God not to say or think certain thoughts... I dare say if such stories are in the Bible, they're there for a reason... if it were true.
"The flesh is the flesh and it doesn't give up without a fight. If a person suffers severe adversity they should rejoice because the saviour of the universe is at work in them."
Savior of the Universe? His Father created things to happen in the exact manner in which they occurred, whether He "wanted" it to happen or not, He had no control over the situation, apparently.
So basically, He's like, "crap, I created all the factors that would allow all of this to happen, but I was hoping for the best Oh, but wait I made them "free" beings, and they made the choice I didn't want... Crap, well, I'll give them a way out, it'll just be reallllyyy hard to do and only a few people will be able to do it. Ah well. Such is the life that I created. They have to deal with it! It's my way, or the highway (to Hell!) >"
No amount of scriptures from that book will change the fact that this is who the God of the Bible is. I can only see it now because of the true despair/anguish that I did indeed suffer. For a moment, I felt what a crack-head going through withdrawal felt like. Awful really. Had the shakes and all.
So basically, He's like, "crap, I created all the factors that would allow all of this to happen, but I was hoping for the best big_smile sad Oh, but wait I made them "free" beings, and they made the choice I didn't want... Crap, well, I'll give them a way out, it'll just be reallllyyy hard to do and only a few people will be able to do it. Ah well. Such is the life that I created. They have to deal with it! It's my way, or the highway (to Hell!) >smile"
I can see exactly where you are coming from and I can understand your angst, totally. However, its not so much that only a few people will be able to do it, but that, few people want to do it, and that is the crux of the issue we are facing here. It's not ability that is the issue it's desire.
The truth is that people love their sin life more than they do God and are not willing to give it up. They resent it and that is why you will find so much animosity towards God and in particular Jesus, who is God in Human form. He's hated and so are people who believe in Him. They are called Jesus freaks, bible bashers and all sorts of names that reflect the deep-rooted hatred that people feel.
Its funny though, that every person who ever slanders Jesus and the bible, and I would go so far as to say, nearly every person alive, uses his name as a curse word, and yet nobody seems to believe in him. Even the people who believe He never existed use His name in this way. Why? Why is it that people never say "Oh Lucifer!" or "Oh Satan" as a curse word? Is it just some strange coincidence? I don't think so and you or anyone else, would do well to reflect on that.
God created rules for a reason and the reason is that He knew full well that mankind was not capable of living an independent, harmonious life without them. I'll be honest, I don't understand all of them but I understand why, and I also understand that we will always have limited perspective from that point of view.
"and they made the choice I didn't want"
Look at the world? Look around you and you will see the results of man trying to live independently from God by following his own choices. The more that people drift away from God, the worse society becomes. It's those same people have the audacity to turn round and blame God for society's ills.
Gal_6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Mankind only has itself to blame. Everywhere you look temptation lurks around every corner, billboard, TV and shopping mall. People run around after their own lusts, driven by an urge to get a love-high. They meet someone, start a relationship and get their love-fix. The only trouble is that in a few years time that love-high wears out and they are left with mundane living.
With temptations abound, it isn't long before the other person in the partnership/marriage starts looking elsewhere for that love-high and new excitement. This is reflected in society's divorce rates, broken homes and the shattered lives of any unfortunate children that get in the way, all because their parents want to live a selfish life. But of course, they never really hurt anyone and societies Ills are always someone else's problem, never theirs. Funny that!
Whether you want to believe it or not, the whole world is driven by sex. Just look at your TV and virtually every advert that is ever shown, is based around mankind's desire for sex. The truth is that you and everyone else are being used and manipulated and controlled through your base instincts for sex. From the fashion industry and clothes you buy to the mainstream Music Industry and even the food you eat - it's all based on sex. You and others are being manipulated and you can't even see it. You're blind!
Nowadays, we have the music and fashion industry sexualising young children and no one seems to batter an eyelid. It's okay to make mini-skirts and hot-pants for 10-12 year old girls, but when some pervert molests or rapes a young child, no one stops and blames the fashion and music industries that fuel it. Is this the world you want to be growing up in and that you want your children to grow up in? Well you're welcome to it because I don't want any part of a stinking world like this.
The bottom line? you have a choice. You cannot serve two masters either you will love one or hate the other. It's that simple! I can only hope that you are one of the ones that Jesus will never let out of His hands, as opposed to the ones who have been given up to their own lusts.
1Co_2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
You had better be careful what you are throwing away, you will have an whole eternity to reflect on it.
"No amount of scriptures from that book will change the fact that this is who the God of the Bible is."
A caring, loving God loves you and who died for you, that you have now decided to willingly reject in order that you can follow your own lusts instead? God will not punish you for your sin, but rather your rejection of Him in order to follow after your lusts.
"Job got reprimanded for that. His response to God may have been deemed "better" than how his friends responded to the situation, but God's response was basically sit down and shut up, don't talk me like that, I created the very air you are breathing. "
Yes Job got reprimanded, just as I or anyone else gets reprimanded. but at least Job was being honest with God? You are angry at God now! The irony is that in your hatred towards God you are being honest with Him at this very moment and when you were doing all that stuff like cutting out things from your life, you weren't being honest with God or yourself, despite your good intentions.
Yes we all have good intentions and just like you, I did what you did. Unlike you, though, God gave me an object lesson in the difference between what I say and what I mean or moreover, what my heart really desired. Shocking!
By giving up everything at once you created a stumbling block for yourself because, although your heart might have wanted it, there was no way that it was ever going to work. I know that. God knows that. Why is it that you don't know that? Instead of the gentle and timely influence of the Lord work in your life, you allowed yourself to listen to some overbearing Church to dictate to you, that you have to be hard on yourself. What kind of doctrine is that? Don't you think that maybe, just maybe, God wanted you to be happy too?
Mat_9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Is it any wonder you have God down as some sort of monster?
"Its funny though, that every person who ever slanders Jesus and the bible, and I would go so far as to say, nearly every person alive, uses his name as a curse word, and yet nobody seems to believe in him. Even the people who believe He never existed use His name in this way. Why? Why is it that people never say "Oh Lucifer!" or "Oh Satan" as a curse word? Is it just some strange coincidence? I don't think so and you or anyone else, would do well to reflect on that."
Yea, our Pastor would say that.
Firstly, I am alive and I don't use it as a curse word.
But, what do you think people said before Jesus came about? Something related to Zeus or any Greek gods for that matter might have been said by the greeks. I hear many people today using the plural "gods." Like "thank the gods," or "the gods must hate me," etc. Which hints as mainly be figures of speech. It can be said that when there is a figure or "God" seen in a high position, though and is seen as undesirable, or maybe even unjust, or there's the adolescent tendency to rebel, it may/will be used in a negative way. Or really to describe the epic/grand nature of it, too.
People's word choice, in cursing and whatever else, reflect the times, and geography, more often than not. Some people are specifically using it on purpose, some don't know any better, and many don't even say it all. Many Asian people strongly influenced by their Eastern thought, and the like would never say Jesus ******* Christ, or anyone else's God as a curse word, because they would consider it disrespectful.
"Look at the world? Look around you and you will see the results of man trying to live independently from God by following his own choices. The more that people drift away from God, the worse society becomes. It's those same people have the audacity to turn round and blame God for society's ills."
Um, a direct response to that would require another entire post... So much typing...
"and they made the choice I didn't want"
Also, I'll restate what I said about only a few people being able to do it. Why would God make the one way out the very path that He knew man would have trouble following? (If this were true) Do you know the heart of every man, and the reason why they do what they do? I mean, I know you think you do, because the Bible is supposedly God's word, and these things are talked about in it. But, do you really think that every man or woman that isn't a "true follower of Christ" has nothing but a tendency towards chaos, sexual misconduct, and whatever else you think makes society bad? More assumptions that you can't possibly back up... But you believe them to be true, and are placing individuals in different societies into a big bubble.
"The only trouble is that in a few years time that love-high wears out and they are left with mundane living."
You will spend your whole life making a lot of invalid assumptions because that is the nature of many religious systems. You believe you have an answer to something that applies to all people and all situations, as if you've met all people in all situations, and because you haven't, you should realize that you cannot make concrete conclusions on something you literally haven't experienced anywhere near enough of.
There exist many secular couples, be it a surprise to you, that have been happily married for years upon years, still in love, nothing near mundane. You'll even find men here on hub pages, still very much in love with their wives, or long term partners, and such is reciprocated, and they either do not believe in God or do not believe in your God. I dare say the cases that prove what you say to be false also open the door to there being many more relationships out there of a good nature without your god being the driving force behind it.
And some people, mostly women in a certain time, were either told who to marry for social or economic reasons because these were the reality of the times, and the marriages lasted, even though the people involved were miserable, because people were dead scared of divorces. Is that enough to say the societies were better, because the divorce rates were lower and children had both parents? I'm sure we both know life is more complicated than that.
"Whether you want to believe it or not, the whole world is driven by sex. Just look at your TV and virtually every advert that is ever shown, is based around mankind's desire for sex. The truth is that you and everyone else are being used and manipulated and controlled through your base instincts for sex. From the fashion industry and clothes you buy to the mainstream Music Industry and even the food you eat - it's all based on sex. You and others are being manipulated and you can't even see it. You're blind!"
LoL, more assumptions leading to falsehoods. Yes, many people are driven by sex. Sex is an important part of the human make up. While I do not approve of orgies and the like, I certainly am not being "manipulated" on the matter. Abstaining from sexual "misconduct" is really for your own benefit and the benefits of others. It doesn't make people awful for not knowing it and therefore practicing these things. It just makes them immature and ignorant about themselves, the importance of their own safety physically, emotionally, etc, and that of others. Plenty of non-religous and non-Christian religious people live life without being obsessed with sex... It would be false to assume everyone lives according to the mainstream just because you like putting the world in a bubble.
If anything, pure abstinence from sex can be very bad. And many girls and guys forced to be that way go wild when they get old enough because they don't have a good understanding of themselves or their sexuality and how it a part of them, and very important, because it's more than just meeting physical needs. Being told this or that is bad your whole life, but not really understanding why is a problem, and leads to ignorance, misconduct, etc.
Oh, and what kind of food do I eat? LoL. Have you been stalking me?
"By giving up everything at once you created a stumbling block for yourself because, although your heart might have wanted it, there was no way that it was ever going to work. I know that. God knows that. Why is it that you don't know that? Instead of the gentle and timely influence of the Lord work in your life, you allowed yourself to listen to some overbearing Church to dictate to you, that you have to be hard on yourself. What kind of doctrine is that? Don't you think that maybe, just maybe, God wanted you to be happy too?"
Um, who said I did it all at once? You like filling in the gaps. I'm pretty sure in the response I just gave you, I said I did these things being led from prayer and the "holy spirit," and how jesus would feel, etc etc, and it took quite a while... I did try some of it cold turkey once, but came to the realization, and then, you know, don't want to repeat myself...
And, according to your Bible, I didn't and still don't think that "God" is really worried about my happiness... for different reasons, of course. (Should I have continued to to do what was wrong because it made me happy?) Elaborate on that part for me, and I will also elaborate on that later, if you like.
"A caring, loving God loves you and who died for you, that you have now decided to willingly reject in order that you can follow your own lusts instead? God will not punish you for your sin, but rather your rejection of Him in order to follow after your lusts."
Doesn't He punish for both?
And do YOU know why I turned from the faith? If you think it was to go after my own "lusts," then you still know very little about me.
"Is it any wonder you have God down as some sort of monster?"
Uh, should we go there? Does this one "great" supposed deed (Jesus dying the cross thing) make up for all of the other sh*t? (Excuse my French) The good can't outweigh the bad for men, but it can for God, just like all of the other double standards granted Him simply because He's our supposed maker? I think one thing man, well at least man introduced to this western thought of the Christian God, might be tired of is the scare tactics, guilt trips, and injustice of it all, really.
Um, this will require a second post to tend to some of the other things you wrote. So, to be continued(eventually)!
"Um, should we go there?"
No probably not!
Does this one "great" supposed deed (Jesus dying the cross thing) make up for all of the other sh*t?
What other shit would that be, then? Maybe we should go there after all!
The good can't outweigh the bad for men, but it can for God, just like all of the other double standards granted Him simply because He's our supposed maker?
Well if you think that we got here by blind random chance, when random chance doesn't even exist in nature, then you are severely mistaken. Even in the quantum world where many armchair scientists misconstrue the uncertainty principle to mean that their is randomness in the universe. Wrong!!!
Even if you think that some other deity is responsible, that still doesn't explain why the world is in such a mess and why this new-found deity allows evil and innocent people to suffer. Looks like it's back to the drawing board for you!
Um, who said I did it all at once? You like filling in the gaps.
so how long was it, exactly before you came a so-called "youth leader", from first becoming a believer?
Secondly, did you experience baptism of the Holy Spirit and did you speak in tongues or have any other gifts?
Did your so-called Church even believe in the gifts of the spirit?
"And do YOU know why I turned from the faith? If you think it was to go after my own "lusts," then you still know very little about me."
No I don't have a clue why you turned from your faith and yes, I would certainly like to know.
"I think one thing man, well at least man introduced to this western thought of the Christian God, might be tired of is the scare tactics, guilt trips, and injustice of it all, really. "
Scare tactics? Injustice? Guilt? That sounds rather like the society we live in but I don't hear you complain about that.
So you want Justice without scare tactics? How do you think that is going to happen? By the very fact that you have justice, means you also have punishment, which means you have a deterrent which is nothing more than a scare tactic to deter people from committing a crime that you don't want them to do.
The only difference is that when you sin against the highest power the punishment gets more severe. I'm sorry you don't like that. But if you do find a way to have justice without punishment and a method to scare people, then do let me know. The information will come in very handy, should I decide to leave my faith, and become a benevolent dictator.
Oh, and what kind of food do I eat? LoL. Have you been stalking me?
Stalk you? I wish I had the time to stalk you. Sadly I don't have the time or the inclination, but to have the time would at least be nice, though. If you read it correctly I said that I didn't know anything about you such as the food you eat, your fav color etc etc. I never implied or meant to imply that I wanted to know those things!
There exist many secular couples, be it a surprise to you, that have been happily married for years upon years, still in love, nothing near mundane.
No its no surprise to me at all. But those couples are almost certainly, with very few exceptions, from the older generation. As this society turns ever more away from God those couples will soon become a rarity. This is a self serving generation walking after their own lusts (NOT NECESSARILY SEXUAL) with ever increasing greed and a bent towards material gain like never before. This is the generation of the self. Self seeking, Self gratifying, and self serving individuals and yes, there will always be exceptions but the mean numbers will continue to increase with time and therefore, any increase will be inversely proportional to the decrease in numbers of true believers of God.
"LoL, more assumptions leading to falsehoods."
Well you may not object to being manipulated through sex but I resent the fact that people assume that I am so gullible that they even try. I resent the fact that the music and fashion industries target children and its not a falsehood at all. Not so very long ago, children were allowed to be children, nowadays, they are dressed up like slutty little adults. If I had my way half the fashion and music industry would be held accountable and put in prison for grooming.
"Stalk you? I wish I had the time to stalk you. Sadly I don't have the time or the inclination, but to have the time would at least be nice, though. If you read it correctly I said that I didn't know anything about you such as the food you eat, your fav color etc etc. I never implied or meant to imply that I wanted to know those things"
The only reason I mentioned food was because you told me that even the foods that I eat are about sexual satisfaction. So, I wanted to know how you know the foods I eat.
"Well if you think that we got here by blind random chance, when random chance doesn't even exist in nature, then you are severely mistaken. Even in the quantum world where many armchair scientists misconstrue the uncertainty principle to mean that their is randomness in the universe. Wrong!!!"
One of the basic ideas presented in Quantum Physics is that "the movement of these particles is inherently random."
As far as the uncertainty principle. I found a good way that someone described through analogy. I had never heard of this principle. He said that basically, if a you have a rectangle with a fixed area, if you were to decrease the length, it would get wider to compensate and vice versa. If this is an accurate analogy, then, I see nothing having to do with randomness there, either.
"Even if you think that some other deity is responsible, that still doesn't explain why the world is in such a mess and why this new-found deity allows evil and innocent people to suffer. Looks like it's back to the drawing board for you! "
I never said that we did or didn't get here by chance. Maybe we were created. That'd be cool. And... maybe we weren't. That might hurt the egos of all the people who need to feel like we are somehow more special than everything else that we are sharing the Earth with, simply because we stand up right and invent things. People just can't stand the idea that we might not be as divine and special as we like to think we are.
Don't get me wrong. It's quite awesome and comforting to believe that everyone and everything was designed, and that we are especially above everything else in the world, because of all of the things that man can do. But that doesn't necessarily make it so.
As far as this new found deity that l believe in, garsh, where do you get all this secret info about me? I don't believe in some new-found deity. I don't really believe in a "deity." Nor is my idea of what we believe to be transcendence anything new. It's still a work in process, what I "believe," though.
"Secondly, did you experience baptism of the Holy Spirit and did you speak in tongues or have any other gifts?
Did your so-called Church even believe in the gifts of the spirit?"
Erm. "yes?" (I say yes, but questionably, of course, from my current viewpoint) My gift was "healing." And so, yes, they did believe in gifts of the spirit. I was also considered a teacher, but I think that something different.
"any increase will be inversely proportional to the decrease in numbers of true believers of God."
I don't know if it'll be only the "true" believers in your God, but the religiously devout, whose religions are similar to yours in principles, maybe.
Yin and Yang is a concept I find to be very interesting. When "evil" trys to overstep "good," "good steps in to return the balance, and vice versa. When too many people are being ridiculous, wild, and apathetic, more people will become stern/strict/devout. How people act now is no different than how people have acted in ages past. Really they were even more wild sometimes. Something like "freaknik" but all the time.
"Scare tactics? Injustice? Guilt? That sounds rather like the society we live in but I don't hear you complain about that."
Well, considering we've mainly been discussing the christian God and Hell, and all of that, that would make sense, wouldn't it?
"So you want Justice without scare tactics? How do you think that is going to happen? By the very fact that you have justice, means you also have punishment, which means you have a deterrent which is nothing more than a scare tactic to deter people from committing a crime that you don't want them to do. "
Why does "God" not want us to do these things? To protect us? Great. I want to be protected. But, to be deterred from making the wrong decisions by the idea of Hell, which if it is real, is way worse than any consequences I would face on Earth? Seems counterproductive. Punishment IS indeed effective for deterring people from doing what is "wrong" or socially unacceptable. But Hell is an extreme that I wish for no man, and that no loving God would create. Now, if the God of the Bible exists, but isn't truly loving, as He would like us to think, that changes things... If He had a reason for doing what He did, if He knew people would end up in Hell, if He knew that Adam and Eve would sin, if He knew that billions of people would suffer in the world, if He created Hell because He is vengeful, if He enjoys all of His power, and for the lesser beings to worship Him and do exactly what He wants, then He is a tyrant, and I certainly wouldn't see any reason to happily worship Him, but would indeed be scared by his rants of Hell, and follow Him out of fear.
"The only difference is that when you sin against the highest power the punishment gets more severe. I'm sorry you don't like that. But if you do find a way to have justice without punishment and a method to scare people, then do let me know. The information will come in very handy, should I decide to leave my faith, and become a benevolent dictator."
Do you admit that God is a dictator? A malevolent one, at that?
IF there is a God, and IF He/She/It is loving, there is no hell. Consequences are here on Earth only, and the people who have to suffer in this life will only find a peaceful sleep when they die. Like a breath out, they'll be able to say, finally, it's over... I can sleep. I can rest. No need to cry anymore, no stress, no confusion, no hurt, no pain, no anxieties, no fear, no questions, no anger, Just rest. That's what a loving God would offer, no strings attached, knowing and understanding the limits of man, man's tendency to be foolish, knowing that even an old wise man is just a child when compared to this idea of God, and as such, naive, and can only be held responsible so much for his actions, and certainly, no matter how awful, wouldn't deserve something as over the top as Hell.
"The only reason I mentioned food was because you told me that even the foods that I eat are about sexual satisfaction. So, I wanted to know how you know the foods I eat. "
If you go back and read what I said in the RIGHT CONTEXT, you will realise that I was talking about marketing, and in that context it should have been obvious that I was talking about the marketing of foodstuffs. To make matters worse, the vast majority of adverts work at the subconscious level, which is far more powerful than the conscious mind. Here's an example or two of what I mean:
I can assure you that I could fill this space up with example after example of blatant manipulation...
what about innocent children and Disney? Surely they (Disney) cannot be involved in the manipulation of children?
There is an urban myth going around the internet that this was done by a disgruntled employee. However, it doesn't take too much digging to find that that, is in fact an urban myth, and that no such disgruntled employee existed or exists. I think that even snoopes verifies this too.
Well, well, well...what have we here? More subconscious manipulation of children. In reality the frame goes way to fast to be seen by the concious mind but the subconscious notices it and absorbs it like a sponge for their little minds.
Well, well, well, its back to the Little Mermaid again and this time we have a priest with a 'stiffy'. Once is a coincidence, maybe, but twice or thrice? I don't think so. Why does Disney do this? What is their real agenda?
This frame is taken from the Rescuers and when this was first noticed, Disney quickly removed it from the shelves and citing that a disgruntled employee was responsible. It's funny...but there must be a lot of disgruntled employees down at Disney HQ. It's also interesting to note the Disney never did the same thing with the discovery that a bloody great big penis made up the castle to the little mermaid. If it wasn't so tragic it would be funny!
Is it any wonder we have a generation of children who were fed a diet of Disney propaganda, being sexually aware before their time? Along with the fashion industry and the music industry they don't stand a chance. Manipulation is the name of the game for these evil organisations and they know only too well, you need to get them while they are young and then it makes them easier to control when they are adults. And you think the gospel is about controlling people?
With all due respect you are ignorant to what is going on under your nose. You think you have some handle on Jesus but you never had a handle on Him in the first place. Please wake up!
On Quantum Physics you said:[b]
"One of the basic ideas presented in Quantum Physics is that "the movement of these particles is inherently random."
Sorry, but I have never heard such utter rubbish and misconstrued nonsense in all my life. I don't care what someone told you. You would be wise not to listen to people that are just as ignorant as yourself. Again, I say that with respect and when I call you or someone else ignorant, I mean it in the truest sense of the word, and not necessarily as an insult against you. Either way, take it as you will.
Firstly, the uncertainty principle, is to do with the measurement of momentum and position of an electron in an atom. The uncertainty principle states that it is not possible to know the momentum and exact location of an electron within an atom. This is because any measurement that it is possible to do, would mean that energy would be put into the system, and that energy in and of itself, would change the position of the electron and/or alter its momentum, which is the very thing you are trying to measure. Therefore it is not possible to know such information, but not because the motion of the particle itself is random.
If you have studied any chemistry you will know that it is not possible to determine the exact location of an electron within any given orbital, only the probability that at any given point you will find it. This is probably why most people misconstrue the idea of randomness in the quantum world.
Secondly, experiments have shown that photons don't have locality. That is, photons are not affected by their immediate environment. That is, that all the photons in the known universe, know what all the other photons are doing. That has huge implications for the randomness or supposed randomness of quantum physics. Think about it? In all the trillions and trillions of miles of space, every photon is in contact with every other?
God is light? God is everywhere all at the same time? Even though God exists outside of the universe, it seems that He is still an integral part of it!
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Thirdly, for any scientific model/theory to be accepted as science, it must fulfil certain criteria and the most important of those criteria is that it must be observable, and that one should be able to make predictions based on any hypothesis given. If quantum mechanics was truly random, then, it would not be possible to make certain predictions based on observed behaviour and thus, would render itself null and void by scientific standards. In other words, you cannot make predictions based on truly random behaviour. Please, if you are going to argue with me on physics, then at least go and learn what you are talking about, instead of accepting information from some armchair-wanabee who wants to make himself/herself look good by duping the ignorant and uninformed, with their half baked and misinformed nonsense.
Its ironic that in the last reply to me, or was it the one before? Hmm...never mind...you quoted the book of Job. How sad it is that you can attempt to quote quantum physics to me, yet, you are totally oblivious to the science that is hidden in that book, which incidentally, is the oldest book of the bible.
Job_38:31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?
Is that just poetic language? I don't think so! In that one bible verse is stunningly accurate scientific information that it was not possible to know at the time of writing. This proves beyond doubt the credibility of the bible and all that is contained within.
The fact is that the constellation of Orion is disbanding, because the stars that make it up all have different relative motions to one another and are moving apart. this is true for other constellations also such as the Plough and Cassiopeia etc. By contrast, however, the Pleiades star cluster is bound together by gravitational forces and are not moving apart. I find it sad that you have exchanged the truth of God for a lie to follow after your own lusts.
[b] Religion Vs Gospel of Jesus Christ
Erm. "yes?" (I say yes, but questionably, of course, from my current viewpoint) My gift was "healing." And so, yes, they did believe in gifts of the spirit. I was also considered a teacher, but I think that something different.
I notice that you never answered the question regarding how long it was before you were made youth leader, since supposedly 'becoming a Christian'. Maybe you overlooked it? I don't think so as I already know the answer to that one, regardless of the fact that it was conspicuous by its absence.
The answer is of course, not very long. Its disgusting that this so-called Church you got involved with would elevate you to such a position that you were not ready for, emotionally or spiritually. This is not a game and I'm sorry to say that the vast majority of Churches, seem to treat it as such. They are too busy playing Churchianity and feeding people lies in order to keep them at the church. I know exactly what sort of organisation you were involved with and I'm sorry to say that you are just another victim of Churchianity and the Churchiantiy mindset.
You were considered a teacher but you think that is something different? I'm shocked! Totally gob-smacked. What do you mean you think it is something different? Don't you know? How can you teach others when you don't know yourself? Disgraceful!
The gift of healing? Who told you that? no wonder you are skeptical of the whole thing because you have been fed BS by people who should know better. Tell me, did you ever heal anyone? When I say heal anyone I don't mean Mr Joe Bloggs who came in with a sore arm and said it felt much better afterwards. I mean really heal someone of cancer, or to cause a real cripple to walk or the blind to see? Of course, when I say this (did you heal anybody) I say it with the implicit understanding that it is Jesus that heals, and not anything we can do of our own accord.
Believe me, if you truly had those gifts you would not be sitting where you are now and denying Jesus Christ and the bible. You would be proclaiming His name from the rooftops. I'm sorry but you had nothing more than Churchianity. You were religious and that was it and you need to wake up. It seems your Church throws the gifts around like they are confetti, telling people they have this gift and that gift, without ever stopping to consider if they are talking from their flesh or their spirit.
As my good friend Jerry once said to me:" Churchianty is full of people running around and doing things in Jesus name. People are going out on missionary fields that Jesus hasn't called. People are going into the church that Jesus hasn't called. The flesh is proud and makes many boasts and people are in elevated positions within the church, who shouldn't be there because they were never called by Jesus, but nevertheless, it suits their ego to be there so that they can look good in front of other men. They are too busy doing lots of works in His name, and yet, most of them would walk by their neighbour if they ever saw him/her in trouble or destitute and not batter an eyelid."
"Churchianity people are too busy, yak, yak, yacking and never give Jesus the time or space to answer them, lest they hear his audible voice or even the small quiet inner voice that is the most common. They are too busy running around trying to heal, trying to do this, trying to do that and its all futile and smacks of their own flesh and their own pride - least they admit that they don't have any gifts at all and that their church will think they are a failure. They seek reassurance off of other people in the church because somewhere deep down inside, they know that they don't have it. They know that something isn't right. Well meaning but erroneous people, however, try to reassure them that they do and will often nit-pick scripture to prove to them that they do have it - even though 9/10 that scripture was taken way out of context. Is any of this ringing bells for you?
These people involved in Churchianity (church hierarchy) think that all they have to do is get a person to say a prayer then they are 'once saved, always saved'. Never mind the truth of the gospel or letting the spirit reveal the gospel to them.
No! They just turn up at church every Sunday morning and think that they are doing Jesus a really big favour just by being there and that Jesus should bless them for it since they have made such an effort. They happily sit there in their comfort zone, clinging to every word their pastor tells them (they all assume that the pastor has a hotline to God that they don't have), pretending to do miracles and using scripture to their own ends. They are like children playing in a sand pit. This isn't a game and the church needs to wake up.
We are about to go through a turbulent period of history like no other. This is not the time for anyone to be playing Churchianity!!! Wake up! Wake up! Wake Up!
God And Hell
Why does "God" not want us to do these things? To protect us? Great. I want to be protected. But, to be deterred from making the wrong decisions by the idea of Hell, which if it is real, is way worse than any consequences I would face on Earth?
Do you seriously believe that this earth and this universe in which it is placed (along with all the other worlds) is all there is? Has it ever occurred to you that a far greater reality exists outside of your little box that you have not only put yourself into but also God? Probably not!
Yes, God in his infinite wisdom gave us laws to follow for our own good, even though, we in our earthly wisdom cannot comprehend some of those laws or understand why, and what exactly is the point in some of Gods laws, some of which do seem petty by comparison to the more obvious ones like "You shall not kill". Sex before marriage being an example of such. After all, it doesn't hurt anyone...does it? Are you sure? I used to think like that, too but I can see the bigger picture that most people fail to see and people do get hurt and are hurting, regardless of whether they realize it or not, both physically and emotionally. You need to realize this and get over it! When we disobey God we pay a price, regardless of whether that price is obvious at first glance or immediate. Notice I said we, in that last statement, and not you or I? I'm not throwing stones at you, just stating a fact.
I'm sure you or others would be quick to point out that divorce rates are high among Christians and ask where that leaves Christianity. The only trouble is that those statistics are made up of people like you who claim to be or have been Christian.
It's funny, but if you go knock on people's doors and do a questionnaire asking what religion people are, the vast majority of them will say they are Christian. In my country people think that they are a Christian just because they have been Christened at birth. It seems the whole world and his dog are Christian, nowadays, and the term (Christian) has become synonymous with country of birth and/or political status of that country rather than the true meaning of the word. Sadly, wherever there are statistics on so-called Christianity and/or someone to blame, there are always atheists and God-haters waiting to cash-in at the hapless Christians expense. Like scavengers waiting on the sidelines for a victim, they are ready to pounce at every opportunity that presents itself.
When you call God unjust you are making a lot of assumptions about Him that you cannot know about. You know nothing of God or the existence beyond and there is no way that you can see the bigger picture from your vantage point. You can scream cop-out to me all you want, but if it was possible to know everything about God - well he wouldn't be God. Get used to it and get over it and quit your whining about God's supposed injustice.
There will be justice and it will be supreme and moreover, everyone both past, present and future, will stand before Him one day. Every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord...even those who are in hell.
Your absurd ranting paradoxes come strait from the atheist and God-haters 101 handbook and are fundamentally flawed. Your logic is...if God made everything good, why is there pain? If God is all knowing why did He create Satan knowing that he would sin? Moreover, why didn't he just snuff him out?
Well firstly, you are assuming that Lucifer/Satan and his legions of demonic underlings are directly responsible for people doing bad things? You are assuming that if Satan would never have existed or had been allowed to exist, then there wouldn't be all this trouble in the world? That's one hell of an assumption to make (excuse the pun).
here are some things that you should think about. Can righteousness exist on its own without the ability to do evil? In other words, how can righteousness be righteous if there isn't any evil to compare it with?
Evil did not exist as a result of Adams fall, but rather, as a direct result of disobedience to the creator, Adam and Eve both became aware of the existence of good and evil.
Did evil begin when Lucifer tried to usurp Gods authority? No! There is no biblical evidence for that. The whole crux of your argument is based on assumptions, incomplete knowledge and misinformation. Nothing new there, then.
Don't misunderstand me, Satan tempts but are we really following our will when we are tempted or is Satan's influence upon us so great, that we have no choice but to go with it? I don't think so!
If god is the creater and destroyer of all things, why didn't he vaporize satan and hell a long time ago. With a vast majority of people going to hell, you'd think that, by now satan would have more than enough manpower to overun god's kingdom.
Only if you believe that God is a creation of Satan, then you may be right, Paul. In the last judgment, in Christ's second coming, Satan with his evil followers, rebellious and denying of Christ, have their days numbered. With God, a 1000 years for us could only be a few hours or less for him as with him, time is his creation since the beginning, as everything is. May more people be enlightened through the Holy Spirit.
"Hell, as it exists in the Bible, would make God easily the most evil being possible. Eternal agony with no purpose other than to cause you pain, from which you cannot be redeemed, is completely contradictory with the notion of a loving God."
Wrong! If God didn't provide a way out, then I might just agree with you. However, since the Father provided a way for a man to escape condemnation through Jesus, there is no excuse - however distasteful we may find it..
Also, if God is Holy and righteous, then, to be a just God and remain Holy and righteous then He has to punish sin. I suppose He could just let everyone off, since he loves them so much - but then if He did that he would have to do it for people like Hitler, Stalin, pedophiles, murderers and rapists. If He didn't, then that would make him unjust. Heaven must, by its very definition, be an unimaginably beautiful place where no corruption exists, whatsoever. Ask yourself, could you ever envisage such a place with unrepentant child-molesters and murderers walking around?
People are under the impression that God can do anything because He's God. Well, no He can't! For example, God cannot lie. God cannot sin or let sin go unpunished and remain righteous and Holy. God by His very definition has to be Holy and righteous, otherwise he wouldn't be God. So therefore, God cannot change His nature to placate mankind.
Saying that God is evil for sending people to hell is a bit like saying that a judge who sentences a prisoner to death is evil, when he is merely doing his job and being a good judge.
Human beings will never truly understand the meaning of righteousness. We were born into sin and we don't know anything different. Sin is all we've ever known. Period.
God doesn't have a scale of sin, whereby, some sins are worse than others. To God a lie is as bad as a murder. The bible says:" All who sin fall short of the glory of god." and that, "if any one keeps the whole law, and yet, offends in one point, He is guilty of all." Neither can a person enter Gods kingdom through good works, as "even mankind's greatest works are like filthy rags to God."
What can you say with this video about a man who 'dies, comes back to life, what he saw?' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRSjzY0s … r_embedded Godspeed TS and all the rest.
This question always elicit extreme passionate responses from the religious (from any type of religions). There will be no end in sight to this subject. Each answer lies in someone's theory of their religious belief.
I, for one who had been through the path of different religions and then none, realized that human beings through thousands of years have to be creative to persuade people to join their beliefs. Heaven is here with us as well as Hell is at every moment of our everyday life in every millisecond of our existence.
No, the idea of hell came only in the New Testament.
In Hebrew, hell is the grave, and/or a tomb
Hell is a complete and utter fairy tale invented thousands of years ago by an elite group of control freaks for one simple reason:
To scare the bejusus out of you believers.
Works well doesn't it?
Lets try a little experiment and see if I live through the night:
HEY SATIN! Beelsabub or what ever you dumb ass name is. Get your knarley ass up here right now if you got the onions, I'm gonna kick you butt into the next county. Chicken shit huh? Just as I thought. Yo mama is so fat they can see her from outter space. Are you really red and are those pimples or warts all over your fat ass. If you do decide to take me on, better bring a box of Preperation H with ya. You know what I'm gonna do with the arrow on your tail.
I'm still here folks......
yes I do... and I want nothing to do with it.
Some people living as positive but some are Negative. Heaven is the part of positive or light or eternity. Devil is the king of negatives. He living with ugly people,if you believe in god you can see him everywhere. All problems are coming from the negative side
No. There is no evidence for heaven or hell in a literal sense.
The bible is just a book.
I don't believe in Hogwarts either.
The bible is not just a book. If your going to say their is no heaven/hell, you might as well prove that, "genus". I don't believe in Hogwarts either, never watched the movie nether.
Hell is an English word, coming into use almost 8 1/2 centuries after the New Testament was compiled into a single book.
The original Hebrew & Greek words "hell" was translated over are:
Gehenna- a literal valley, still in use today, in the Southern part of Jerusalem
hades- the place of the dead (grave); the state of being dead (death)
sheol- the place of the dead; the state of being dead
tartaros- (as 1st Century Greek Jews knew it as) a condition of restraint.
None of these words hold any original definition in association with "fire". Even you apply the mythological side to hades and tartaros, they still have no connection to "fire".
However, in the case of Gehenna, its English rendering is "Valley of Hinnom". In the Old Testament, Hinnom Valley was used by sinning Israelites as a place of worshiping Moloch. They would burn their children with fire to this god. God told Jeremiah that one day he would use Hinnom Valley as a fire-related purifying site. A few centuries before Jesus was born (even during his lifetime) Hinnom Valley aka Gehenna was used to burn up Jerusalem's garbage and dead animals. Jesus told the Pharisees that one day Gehenna would be used by God as a fire-related purifying site.
Enter the lake of fire, which if one studies the Bible thoroughly will be burning during the Millennium as a sign to those living who choose to rebel against the establish Kingdom of God on Earth.
Hell, originating from Nordic culture, was a mythological goddess of the dead--with no association to fire. Beneath the earth, in the dirt, Nordes referred to the inner part of the Earth as "hell". British folk later would joke that when one dies he was "going to hell"...hint...the ground. Prior to 1611, English farmers would commonly imply they "loved burying their potatoes in hell".
Thus, hell began loosely synonym with hades/sheol as in "burying a person or thing in the GROUND."
1611 translators applied "hell" to the hades/sheol in this connection only. But some of the scholars believed that hades/sheol were connected to Gehenna. Thus "hell" got tagged to it too. Centuries later the "eternal-burning hell" doctrine arose. In the 1800s the eternal hell concept influenced British and America linguists to define hell with "fire association". Noah Webster followed suit.
And now, today in this year of 2011, people who don't know ancient history, foreign languages, or British & Nordic etymological word origins...believe hell is a place of eternal fire, maggots, demons, and torment.
No. People create their own hell. Here on earth.
Although I would love to believe Hitler and bin laden are forever burning in a pit of fire, there's no logic or proof. Hell was invented to scare people and keep em in line.
Obviously you didn't get the point I made in the comment above yours. The idea of an "eternal-burning hell of maggots, demons, and endless torment" is a fraudulent invention based off a physical place people buried their love ones.
Again, the grave--a hole in the ground--was re-invented into an eternal-burning lake of fire.
The valley of Hinnom--a verifiable place in Jerusalem--was re-invented into an eternal-burning lake of fire.
sheol--the condition of being dead as a doorknob--was re-invented into an eternal-burning lake of fire.
The lake of fire was re-invented into HELL.
And hell originally meant...a hole in the ground. And that is logical and provable. The problem with this debate is most people don't fully realize that all these words and false ideas can be traced back to their very first origin. That's the proof that no learned scholar disagrees on, just the so-called "informed" people in forums disagree with verifiable evidence.
Nah. I do not believe in Hell. I don't really believe in "heaven" either, though.
It doesn't matter whether a person believes or not. The truth does not cease to exist just because someone does not want to believe in it!
The truth also doesn't begin to exist because someone wants to believe in it.
I didn't want to believe in it either, so that is where you are wrong. The truth found me, I didn't find it. I was lead down a proverbial one way path with only one direction to go in. Maybe I will write about it some day.
Once you know the truth, there is no going back and a persons life will never be the same again, and that is what happened to me and I'm glad about that. I was basically faced with a choice. Its one thing to know the truth but it's another to face up to it and deal with it.
Now I am obliged to get the truth out to as many people that will listen. It really does make me sad that I see so much ignorance and misinformation from people about God and the bible. Its one thing to reject the bible and it's message and ultimately God. But it's another thing to reject God based on ignorance and misinformation and that is what makes me more sad than anything.
I'm not sure how my statement is wrong. I simply mean that truth (any truth not just religious) doesn't come to be true because someone wants to believe in it. It's basically what you said but the other way.
I understand that what one believes is usually going to be truth for them. To me belief is like an opinion of what I hope is fact. But I know others will see it differently and that's ok.
I'm not saying I think you are wrong. I think it's great that you are happy and wish that for everyone in the way that works for them.
I wish I could help you further, but I can't. No matter what I say I can never prove God to you or anyone else in this forum. But I do know this, that if a person searches for God with an open mind and open heart and asks God, whosoever He may be, to reveal himself to you/them, then He will.
You won't necessarily find Him in a Church as any Church is nothing more than an empty building, and it's the true believers that make up the body of Christ and not the building in and of itself. In fact, I would go so far as to say that a person should stay away from church and should only go to Church if that person feels led to go.
There are too many people following religion in the vast majority of Churches and it's just as easy to be misled than it is to be edified and/or strengthened. Too, many people with too many different voices following their own flesh and doing their own will and passing it off as that of God's. Thanks but no thanks!
Yes I am aware that what I said can be reversed, and I only said that you were wrong because you implied that I wanted to believe the truth as opposed to finding it. There is a difference and for me the difference is an important one. The truth is the truth and is not relative, that is, you have your truth and I have mine, as satisfactory and peaceful a solution as that seems at first glance, it is not.
The truth is that the world and his dog claims to be Christian, but the truth is far from that.
I'm not looking or asking for proof. Maybe some others are but I'm not. If a person searches for God they may find him.
I see what you mean about that statement. We can disagree though that you having your truth and me having mine is a peaceful solution. If people keep it peaceful then it is.
Hmm, it's more that I just don't believe in it, than I don't "want" to believe in it. I don't believe that any true god, if there is one, would have the justification of creating such a place. There aren't enough reasons out there for it to exist. I don't believe that a god, if he is "love," is then that vengeful and, quite frankly, ugly. If he exists, and he is that vengeful with no just cause, then I guess I'll be a'burnin.'
Nope, I'm a spiritualist but I do not believe in such an existence, because you gotta look at the physical universe as a whole.
The center core of the earth may be the closest things to it or the surface of the sun, if people wanna try to prove such an existence scientifically, but other than that I don't think there is a such place, and I steer far away from the thoughts on it all.
Do you believe in hell
Shae your thoughts ...?
Hell, like everything else .......... is what we make it!
I can't find it again, but I know that I read someplace that the fires of hell are contained within the spirit of Mankind; and if it wasn't said before, I"m Saying It Now!
And who do we blame for that?
I believe there is a literal hell, just as there is a real Heaven.
Here is the very first verse in the OT regarding Hell, notice that Hell is right here on Earth...
Deut. 32: 22-26: "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest Hell, Sheol-Hadees, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. I will heap mishiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them. They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust. The sword without and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs. I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men."
Do you not have any courage to reason for yourself? Why do you opt for the foolishly fraudulent delusions of long dead liars? The bible has no validity!
Yes, there should be a suitable place for bad people when they die
Envisioning the hell we've all heard of, can you seriously imagine one person whose behavior warrants that degree of punishment for an eternity?
I think Hell is the belief that gives rise to many atrocities in our world. I think the ability to imagine and the desire to serve a god whose greatest ambition is to have an arena filled with never ending suffering; an arena the 'good citizens' can gaze down upon from the bleachers of heaven and cheer on the 'righteous' judgment of their god, is one of the greatest travesties of religion.
The only thing that gives me comfort is knowing that, when everything is said and done and we know the other side, those who were unkind enough to believe in such will only suffer the disappointment of knowing their unkindness was a fantasy. Because, fairness would dictate that they spend a moment in the realm they prayed that others would inhabit.
Personally, I wouldn't want anyone to go to Hell. But some people are stubborn. Hitler was stubborn. So was Stalin. So were Pol Pot and Ted Bundy. And so was the little old church lady who wouldn't be caught dead talking to a prostitute, for such was her lack of compassion and her sense of self-superiority.
I suspect, though, that these are all superficial evils. The greatest evil is the ignorance (willfully ignoring) of the path back to spiritual awakening. By clinging to one's physical body and ego and one's physical reality as one's "master," one is deciding not to travel down the spiritual path. I suspect that is far more evil than anything one can do as a human.
Perhaps that is why Hitler might have gone to heaven, if at the last moment he "saw the light." And why the little old church lady might be first in line to hell for her lack of compassion and sense of "holier than thou." Again, ego seems to be the culprit. That sense of self-entitlement to be right and to be superior.
But why would it give you "comfort" to see the self-righteous suffer their own "hell?" That's not very compassionate. Would anybody ever wish that on you? I hope not.
I would think that one of the greatest evils would be to make claims that God opened up a boulevard of cars for one single person, for example. In other words, any kind of transference of responsibility, cause or effect to God may be seen as a great evil by God if in fact He did nothing to open up that boulevard.
Nice way to twist a statement. I said spend a moment in that realm. I would never wish an eternity of suffering on someone.
Hell is human ego, wanting to sit in judgment as if they were a god. Luckily, it is no more than hateful imaginings.
Hmm....that would be to assume that the supposed "good people" would actually do that, instead of wishing that those people in hell as weren't there...
But I understand the sentiment. It seems difficult for me or anyone to imagine that there exists such a terrible place, if indeed this "hell" that so many people believe in, is a "place of fire and brimstone" and eternal suffering, as most people believe it is. It just...doesn't seem compatible with the idea of a really good, loving God. I don't get it. I'm not exactly sure what all is written or said or believed about it.
I tend more towards the opinion that hell, if it exists, is either a state of mind, or earth itself. Just an opinion...
I've never liked the opinion that earth is hell. If there is a God and the Bible has even a little truth, he said it was good when he made it. But, your heart can't help but go out to those who consider life so bad as to consider that.
Well...the idea that life was so bad to think that earth could be hell wasn't the reasoning that brought me to that conclusion. And I meant earth on more of an experiential level, not the actual physical earth itself. There were a few references in the Bible that always made me make that consideration; whether or not those are really valid, I'm not sure.. the explanations of hell in the Bible are rather vague to me. I"m sure there are those more knowledgeable on the topic, but that one is one of the ones that has confused me the most, you know?
I was assuming the view of hell on earth was born of experience. But, you make your own hell by perception. One man's hell is another man's opportunity to rise above and find the meaning and the good in their life. I guess. I don't know.
But, your comment about those more knowledgeable does you a disservice, although it is humble. No one has knowledge. It is all belief. I wonder why everyone doesn't simply demand fairness and compassion from their chosen path of belief.
I always think about that movie Dogma. The church comes up with a bizarre plan that the angels set out to take advantage of. If they succeed, it will negate reality. But, the church has the power to affect change on a cosmic scale, per Catholic dogma.
Those who believe in the Bible should live by that view. They claim to have a mediator. I'd think they would have faith he would mediate. They can not only create a beautiful afterlife for all if they chose to love and forgive all of mankind; but sincere love and forgiveness would change our reality also. Not saying it's possible, but why not stand in favor of the best for all? I simply don't get the Christian faith.
The church usually claims to have a mediator, but only for themselves...that's probably why they don't forgive most people they consider "evil." (even though they really have no call to make that judgement). Most Christians take a "holier-than-thou" attitude towards others. From what you said, do you feel that, if Christianity is true, the church should pray for the best for everyone, and therefore change the afterlife of those who would normally go to hell? That the church's actions to forgive and love all mankind would change those people's afterlife, if they chose to mediate for those people? (sorry, wanted to make sure I understood you clearly...I probably got confused somwhere...heh..) If that were really the case, I would be glad. I wouldn't want anyone to go to hell, no matter who it is. I guess...it's hard for me to feel that the way people are, even if they do some things considered wrong, is so bad to deserve what the common understanding of hell, is. It doesn't really seem fair to me...Christian people aren't the only ones who love, care, protect, etc..it doesn't really make sense. That's what makes me wonder if hell isn't really what we think it is...if we have such a strong sense of compassion and justice and kindness towards people, wouldn't the God, who created us, have the same and more so? Idk. Confusing.
By those more knowledgeable, I guess I was referring to those who'd read more about it in the Bible...I haven't really studied that topic, nor am I clearly aware of what the Bible says about hell, either in Hebrew (for OT) or Greek (for NT) or the English translation. My understanding of Hebrew translations was limited to only several books of the Bible; I never translated many which referred to hell.
Hmm...I've never seen the movie Dogma. I should watch it somtime...
Well, I've seen some posts by the evangelicals where they call Jesus their personal mediator.
But, yes. You understood me correctly. I've always wondered if we don't have the power of creation on a spiritual level. What if ultimately our vision, collectively, determined what the afterlife was like. Keys to heaven kind of thing. What we lock, or unlock, here in this reality determines the other.
As crazy as that is, it is one major problem I have with the religious. They show no caution in what they wish for, at times. It is a selfish vision on many levels.
Hmm...maybe we do have that power. never really thought about it in that way. If we do...then I agree..., if we do have that power,alot of us have failed miserably. Interesting theory...
As Jesus looked at the burning garbage pit called ghenna he meant that everybody makes their own hell.
Or, when I imagine living next door to a pentacostal; I kind of see the 'life on earth is hell' theory as beleivable.
Please try to resolve one post before you bring other areas for debate to the table.
Oh. I forgot. You can't be expected to follow more than one train of thought at a time.
resolve is not trying to follow.
If you continually just bat around a thousand ideas all at once you become like the workman who has many jobs on the go but few accomplished.
You want to reply to ghenna then do so
Don't just jump ship with some snippy one liner.
You don't even have the spirit. How can you possibly create on a spiritual level.
and yes what we do here determines what God thinks of us in HIS afterlife.
I think people who make up their own beliefs are far more selfish that those who follow the mandates of God.
crazy as that is
The difference between you and me is that your fantasy world involves whips and chains. Mine has us all living happily ever after.
I like my little fantasy. Yours? It makes me worry about you BO.
Once again you jump ship. We were not talking about my fantasy world but you having the spirit. If there is only one God and he is spirit how can you have that spirit?
They are not mine. To say that they are is completely wrong.
Your fantasy may make you feel all good and happy ever after, but is it the truth?
People who make things up and have little corroboration with their ideas, worries me. But you have your agenda and mine is to preach the bible.
Yours is a fantasy B O. That's what belief is. It's hope, with no physical evidence to back it up. I do worry about the things you fantasize about. That's why I respond. I am fascinated by the nightmare fantasies you and those of your faith wish for others. You are a mystery, kind of along the lines of The Twilight Zone.
I didn't see your comment about preaching before. That's cute. So, is that what those who can't gather a real flock do? Post on the internet instead? You do realize that you present a more convincing argument that religion is bogus than all of the atheists who post here do put together?
My real brother went through University, became rich, spent 5 more years to get his license to become a pastor. Then spent 3 years getting his own church in order to preach the bible.
How do you know if your not preaching to lord Satan?
The Captain Crunch boxtop BO filled out to get the license to preach on the internet probably did have that disclaimer. In fine print. But it was most likely stuck in the glue on the other flap. He might not have seen it. It happens. I've alerted the manufacturer.
I think it would be wise to alert the Captain Crunch or from any of those freaky fruit loops manufacturer before he start to claim to preach in french form our Canadian box-top french forms.
Jesus judges according to a book with Christians and non-christian.
A book that has an account of everyone person in the word and every sin that person has done.
Oh, A book. It must be pretty big. Maybe They went to computers by now.
This is not a physical book but spiritual. Jeans is a book. That will record our details.
"Jesus judges according to a book with Christians and non-christian."
That's complete rubbish. Jesus does not judge between Christians and non-Christians. He will judge everyone, and I can assure you hell is already full of religious people, whether Christian or otherwise.
Why don't you go and learn the difference between religion and the Gospel of Jesus Christ, instead of spouting misinformation and uninformed nonsense.
We live in a world where morals are relative. What one person finds bad or distasteful, another person doesn't and yet, even when you get a majority consensus on an issue like murder, guaranteed that someone will come along and have their own opinion, and moreover, do what is contrary that opinion and kill someone if they stand to gain from that persons death.
That is hardly surprising when we are told that we all come from monkeys and that it's just a case of survival of the fittest. Life becomes meaningless and its all about what we can get or what we can make. We live for ourselves and our families and we only care about ourselves and feathering our own nests, so to speak. Welcome to materialism and your brave new world. With God thrown out of the window the limits are boundless and humankind can begin to live in a new age of peace and happiness? And if you believe that load of rubbish I feel sorry for you and anyone that believes it.
Without God as an absolute authority, then everything is relative. There is no power that is higher, and God's existence makes His laws absolute and binding, whether you, I or anyone else, believes in Him or not.
I believe in Hell, Michigan
But the whole "suffering after you die" thing? Meh. Not really.
Using dream interpretation, the lake of fire as described in Revelation would be a place of destruction.
Kinda like the burn pit in my back yard, where I get rid of unwanted trash. "IF" this fire in my burn pit was burning forever, it would be because I continue to add more trash to the fire.
That piece of paper that I put on the fire yesterday doesn't continue to burn for ever.
If I continue to have unwanted trash ? And if I continue to put it on the fire, ... I could say that the trash continues to burn or ever.
No. I do not believe there are places called Hell or Heaven. These are just mystical places created thousands of years ago by early civilizations and humanity has been holding on these ideas of these and other mystical places since those times.
According to God, Hell was created for Satan and his fallen angels, not for humans.
Ahh my friend but there is an afterlife. For many years there was no proof the earth was round. The "scientists" of the day thought the earth was flat. Eventually that was proven incorrect.
What most people do not understand is that you cannot escape God. Psalm 139:8 If I ascend into heaven, you are there; if I make my bed in hell, you are there.
Deuteronomy 4:24 Our God is a consuming fire. Do I believe in hell, yes. Our God is a Holy God. Anything that is not Holy will be destroyed by the Holy fire.
This is why we need Jesus the only mediator between man and God. Since He was tempted as we and yet did not sin; He understands and makes intercession for us.
Don't take my word for it. Read the Bible. As you earnestly seek and believe the power of God will become evident in a spiritual way. Then you will have understanding.
Yes i believe there is a hell, bcuz hell was made for people, it was made for the devil and his falling angels, than that's when people start sinning, so now they go there
Hell does not exist nor does heaven therefore I do not believe.
Everyone can create their own personal Hell, wheather that Hell is an actual reality or one that your belief in creates is up for debate. I do not believe in a Heaven or Hell created for our immortality or damnation eternally after this life. Only if you choose to enter such an existence would that seem necessary.
Absolutely. I was heard of an atheist who had a Near Death Experience and he claimed he saw hell and when he woke up, he wanted to convert to Christianity.
Wow! One whole point! you missed
That's one example, lol. But, seriously, hell is not something to be laughed at. When most people think of hell, they think of burning in flames but hell is a spiritual state, being totally enveloped by evil for eternity.
Do you think evil is something to be laughed at, like murder and child sacrifices? No? Then how can something that encompasses all that is evil be a laughing matter? It is only a laughing matter to you because you don't believe it exists. There's nobody who would laugh if they actually knew hell existed.
I would tend to agree. However, one mans evil is another mans good.
Because it's a fairy tale that is a denial of reality, hence people will push their responsibilities onto that rather than dealing with the problem itself.
Only a child who still believes in Santa would believe it exists.
Yes, IF THEY KNEW!
Are you 100% sure that hell doesn't exist? That there is not one iota of doubt and that you can't possibly be wrong? Be honest. If the answer is no, then the POSSIBILITY that there may be a hell is not a laughing matter.
Then, let's line up all the "possibilities" of concepts like hell that could exist based on one iota of doubt...
Santa Claus, Tooth Fairy, Trolls, Orcs, Mild Mannered Black Friday Shoppers...
The list goes on and on... Are you ready to entertain every single concept in which not a single shred of evidence exists yet people really, really, want to believe they do.
So if mankind had never thought of anything creative you would not offer this up as evidence?
If you are saying that jesus lied then that is another story but your childlike argument is not an argument at all neither is it evidence that there is no God in fact, - to me, fact, it falls in line with all your other posts... "change the channel please".
This is why you fanatics cause so many wars
It might have been more polite to simply state that you didn't understand. Of course, that would have been redundant, since I'm sure he already knew that.
The existence of Jesus is, justifiably, in question. So, his argument is valid. Learn the points of the debate and do try to keep up, B O.
Peoples thoughts are not evidence, my friend. Evidence is evidence.
Jesus probably never existed, but the lies told in the bible were certainly written by someone, most likely superstitious fools who craved power in light of their own incompetences.
Arguing that there is a god is far more childish, relatively speaking.
So you think that the possibility of a hell is funny? You know that it may exist, no matter how small, yet it is funny? I'd rather believe in a hell on this earth and find out it doesn't exist in death than vice versa.
Regarding your examples, are they in the league of hell? What's it to me if Santa Claus exists?
You think that there isn't evidence for the existence of hell but your own experiences in life doesn't constitute a "shred of evidence".
I also believe there is no one who WANTS to believe in hell.
obviously its funny...why do u think it is not funny...
Do you even know what spiritual torment is like? That you are so tormented that death feels like the only answer? Just consider that there may be some things you know nothing about.
Do you think this is funny?
I know you will say it's fake, but it sure is not a foregone conclusion that it is fake. So the thought that it may be possible should be frightening to you.
The film, "The Exorcism of Emily Rose" was loosely based on this poor girl.
What is striking to me is how many views this video has received. It means that the idea of demons is truly magnetizing to people.
Not only that, it is silly, foolish and childish to believe in such fairy tales, especially for a grown adult.
Let's use your reasoning. Here you are saying that "no matter how small" a possibility, you will still believe in it.
Don't you realize that every fantastic concept has similar very small possibilities as hell, but you probably don't believe in them. In other words, out of all the very small possibilities of something existing, YOU have picked and chosen one of them. Is that rational?
We aren't talking about magnitudes of existence, just existence itself.
Of course not, that's even sillier.
Even if the truth is in the minority of one, it is still the truth.
It would be irrational if not based on evidence but this evidence cannot be imparted to you, especially over the Internet. Remember, it's foolish to dismiss something as false just because it seems radical to you. The world is not what it seems.
It's not in a minority of one, it is a minority within a vast array of other so-called truths, each one having an equally miniscule chance at being valid. You have been brainwashed into believing one of them.
Yes, the world is what it seems and no one is dismissing your miniscule truth because it "seems radical". It actually seems fantasy and myth.
It is far more foolish to pick out one miniscule truth amongst the many and embrace it for life.
What you may deem irrational may just be the truth. You don't know. I would not embrace something for life if I had no evidence for it. Lol. That's just ridiculous. Some Christians say it is possible to still be a Christian when they aren't sure if Jesus is the son of God or not. That's just insulting to God. That's like me becoming a Muslim because Allah may just exist like religion is some sort of safety net.
It's OK troubled man
Most of us are going to hell according to most Christians, imagine meeting up with all your love ones again.
Because God loves you
If there is no hell and if total extermination is what awaits then your arguments about hell as told by the catholics is moot.
So seeing as you know of a different outcome concerning this whole hell theory, why is it the one you quote the most?
To see you stand firm on what you completely disagree with and not even consider this new information shows that you are not open to learn a new thing.
Does eternal torment in hell show love? No. Then you have to change theories to what does line up. This is only open minded fairness, to do the opposite is intellectual dishonesty.
Of course if your predisposition is just to poke fun and ridicule then you have a good cause to stand firm on things you think are stupid and wrong.
My road record shows firm on what I stand for, where is your legal license for preaching. I discuss any with a light heart on any topic about anything because it's awnsome to be free. If want to have angry discussion like arguments, go to the atheist forum , they will eat you up like wolves. Let face it, fighting is inefficient. I never said Christianity is stupid or wrong, I just give thoughts and question which christian mostly can not answer, in order for you to judge your self since Christian are world champion at judging others.
You say I am not open to learn new things, that’s coming from a guy who lived by med evil times, You couldn’t even imagine the new things I have produced for mankind. My next project is homeless village in honor of Ernest, which might make you mad as hell.
Lord Jesus Christ clearly warned that it is easy to end up in hell. "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41).
The Jews, alone among the nations, were then called and prepared as God's chosen people. To them, God said: have to do is believe in Jesus and that he died for their sins, and they will be saved. ...First of all people need to realize that Jesus was a Jew whose message was .... one chance at either becoming perfect and righteous or go to eternal hell. ... Most people on earth are not aware of Jesus, how will they know about the Bible 's sins. Most people on earth are not aware of Jesus, how will they know about the Bible 's sins. So it is safer to be not unaware of Christian predominately countries where there is less wars, crime and hell on earth.
Good for you for speaking your mind.
yes it was refreshing
nice to see him with two hands free
aside from babbling and being awnsome, it wasn't much of a post at all was it?
I can't wait to see this village! will it be made of sand? because that would be an ironic parallel. I am not mad, indeed it saddened me, so much time wasted, but that's another area of debate that isn't so awnsome.
Since you give questions that most christians cannot answer - you indeed flatter yourself and cannot be speaking of the post i responded to.
and that last paragraph you kinda jumbled real bad.
so if that was your mind and you spoke it.... did you mention meds in there?
do a study on the definition of the word angels and you will find they are not what you think them to be 100% of the time and then when you add a non existent devil into the scenario you will see what matt 25:41 is talking about. Don't forget the verses around it too.
I do believe in Hell. If you believe in the Bible, you know there's a Hell. That's one of the reasons I live the best life I can here on earth. I'm not one for taking unnecessary chances.
The word Hell is a medieval English word that means covered or unseen. That is everyone who is dead is said to be in hell because they are unseen, in a strange non material state of unconsciousness. It fits the Jewish definition of Sheol and the Greek Hades; both of which mean grave, places of oblivion, being 'asleep', 'resting with our fathers'. These terms often translated as Hell in dodgy translations like the King James do not describe what the Church thinks of as hell.
What the Church thinks of as Hell is the lake of fire or Gehenna. Gehenna is the Greek rendering of the Gay Hinnom, or the Hinnom valley to the south west of ancient Jerusalem. It had a notorious history where kings Asa and Manaseh and a large portion of Israel burned their children in sacrifice to pagan gods, for which God spoke that his wrath would be upon them. King Josiah during a return to God revival turned the place into a rubbish dump. Historically it was continually infested with maggots (worms) and set on fire. Thus the rubbish was consumed in a place where the worm never dies and the fires are not quenched.
If God's wrath is upon Asa and Manaseh for burning their children in fire, then anyone who claims God will do the same to His children makes God an evil hypocritical monster.
Gehenna entered Jewish folklore as a place where after the death the soul is purified by fire before entering Heaven. Jesus refers to this folklore in His parables.
The lake of fire speaks of a place of consuming the rubbish again, but should not be singled out as the only literal item in Revelation full of symbology. God is a consuming fire, so it seems sensible that this jake of fire is God Himself. God is often asked in Churches to send his consuming fire to purify the soul/person/lifestyle. So why does the fundie think that God will purify them with his fire but utterly obliterate the unbeliever with the same fire? Add in the brimstone aka sulphur which was used as a cleansing agent, a fumigant, a purifier, and you have a picture of God cleansing and purifying people. Taken together with Jewish folklore, and we have a picture of this 'hell' bing a temporal place accoding to the judgement of our works done in the Earth. At the end of it, all people finally are released.
brimstone is also a symbol of judgment as in Sodom and Gomorrah. its sulphur. I don't know of anyone who would use sulphur to clean.
Why would God purify some and obliterate others? Because God is both judge and father. To purify is an aspect of God and to judge is an aspect of God.
Nowhere does it say people are released from 'hell' or the lake of fire.
Nice catch on the lake of fire being God though. Why in revelations do we look at so much as being symbolic then when we get to the LofF we interpret it as literal?
nice take on ghenna and that confusing to some worm situation. Literal worms eating a spirit .. gotta wonder.
Uses of sulphur as a cleansing agent:
That's why it was used symbolically on Sodom; to cleans the land, and why it is used symbolically in the lake of fire.
Now if God is this consuming fire it makes sense to link this up with 1 Cor 2:13-15. God will test all men's works with fire, much will be consumed, but they nevertheless will be saved. Oh in this fire there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth as it is indeed a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God. So after those in the lake of fire are cleansed, they are released, which is in harmony with Jewish folklore on Gehenna which Jesus talked about.
Now as there aren't many Christians walking around maimed because they cut off hands and feet that cause sin (the Church says we should not literally do this) then how can they say God will literally consume the whole body in Gehenna. You can't take half of a Jesus statement as symbolic and the other half as literal.
Sodom and gomorrah were not cleaned, they were obliterated.
In order for your cleaning example to be correct there should have been survivors who repented but as usual, the sinners were obliterated, their works, as in city, etc, completely destroyed. In the story of S and G God said he was judging. Again there is no mention of anything being released from the lake of fire, the second death.
Jewish folklore are not scripture. only scripture is scripture.
I do not understand how you arrived at paragraph 3. There is no release in ghenna. It is for garbage which is completely burned up and that which the flames do not fully consume the worms consume till every last trace of unconsumed garbage is utterly eradicated.
Nice to know that your friendly next door neighbour who chats to you about the weather and looks after your cat while you are away, but just hasn't yet heard a sufficiently brilliant argument that convinces them of God's existence,...... Is just garbage to be burnt.
you can't ignore S and G being obliterated and the sinful residents destroyed? Trust me, obliteration is far far more merciful that eternal existence apart from God.
And by the way, immortality is not something everyone born has, immortality is a gift of God.
The garden.. Genesis 3:22 ...and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the GIFT of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
I believe hell is a place where wicked people are punished through a high-degree heat of fire or lake of fire as what the bible describes it.
The bible also says that anyone who does not join the faith is one of those wicked people. Do you believe that, too?
Those who have not repented from their sins and believe in Jesus christ are of wickedness.
It is not surprising that Jesus death on the cross can be easily tip toed around.
Sure, in reality. But, in the "Christian Reality" you've created for yourself, anything is possible; talking donkeys and snakes, people coming back from the dead after being brutally beaten and tortured, ghosts, goblins, demons, etc.
Gut blasting, seam ripping, side splittingly hilarious that grown adults still cling to those kind of beliefs.
talking donkeys nope
taking snakes nope
people coming back from the dead... only Jesus christ, none until the ordained resurrections.
Looks like more of your assumptions.
but you are right grown adults do come to christ. Why? Because their hearts are not hardened. They are not predisposed to spread a doctrine that Christ spoke against:
John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the WORLD has hated them, because they are NOT of the world, even as I am NOT of the world.
John 15:18 If the world hate you, know that it hated me before it hated you.
John 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would love his own: but because you are NOT of the world, but I have chosen you OUT of the world, therefore the world hates you.
Mark 4:19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
Mark 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
the world you preach is NOT the proper doctrine AND you are a false preacher of false ways.
Nope, they were claims made by Christians here.
So, you post a bunch of biblical quotes from a couple of medieval morons who hated life and the world around them, so because you hate that too, you have to follow their words.
*hint* The world has changed since then.
Talking donkeys iOld Testament bible story the prophet Ballaam who suppose to curse Isreal
Taking snakes or was it a serpent> News flash Creation Scientists Search for Talking Snake Bones in Africa (Genesis 3:6) The Bible does identify the Satan and the serpent as one and the same. (Revelation 20:2)
Ghosts goblins demons For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but justice, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost
Romans 14:17 -
GHOSTS, ghouls, goblins, genies, demons are spirit entities that people of various religions believe wicked spirits, sometimes referring to them as demons. (1 Corinthians 10:20, 21; James 2:19
the word associated with balaams talking donkey is defined as 'loosed' and not speech. To think that a donkey or a snake would talk is to enlarge or shrink the lung capacity to push air passed humanistic vocal cords, to reshape the teeth and tongue, and to give the animal an awareness of words and meanings... loosed means the jaw hung slack and that this is the equivalent of a ventriloquist act.
Bible does not identify satan with the serpent in genesis that is an inference of the church. Rev 20:2 talks not of satan as satan but of rome, the ancient serpent is egypt. Scoff if you will but this is a letter written from prison, screened by guards and to talk against rome was an act of sedition and punishable by death.
There is no evidence in the OT of any floating spirits. David talking of his departed son said:
2 Samuel 12:23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.
1 Corinthians 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
Revelation 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship DEVILS, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which NEITHER CAN see, nor hear, nor walk:
Devil and devil are not floating around spirits as defined by the NT and the OT. They are nothing, non existent. They cannot see or hear or talk.
1 Corinthians 10:19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
1 Corinthians 10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
Idols and devils are nothing. They are wrong beliefs. Wrong because they do not exist. G1142 to distribute fortunes. These are persian beliefs in beings that distribute fortunes, both good and bad. The western thinking due to catholic doctrine changed the false beliefs of devils and made them all bad and then claimed they were fallen angels. You really have to understand the NT context and the history of church beliefs to see through the veil about this.
I do not believe in hell
I have resolved this completely
Next you will not need the bible at all.
The word hell found in the King James and other English versions of the Bible, ... times in the Old Testament, and “hell” is used 22 times in the New Testament.
If you do not believe in hell why even bring it up twice on Earnestshub thread, why act like a zombie.
Would you like a postcard later on from Ernest homeless village,
I don't see it as a place where bad people go. I see it more as a here and now alternative to a paradisical here and now. I also believe we come back, either by consequence of choices made in a previous life, or simply because we have no where else to go.
and what experiential evidence do you have that we come back?
Do we come back as dogs or cats or bumbly bees? maybe a tree?
You're asking for experimental evidence? YOU? <--- coveted double laughie - well earned
As i am required to bring evidence to the table.. should not others also be required to bring their proof as well????
no icon for egg... well troubled you get the not coveted double eggie on the facie.. well earned.
We come back as people. We have always been man, and we will always be man. This is my own belief. Believe as you wish. I was answering the question of the forum. Don't gitcher panties in a bunch. It is no big deal. Thou doth protesteth too much.
Just wondering what supposes people to think reincarnation is true, especially if ya come back as a bug.
Thanks for responding, although you did not cite proof you just gave me your opinion, which doesn't really amount to much unless maybe you got it from some holy book. I do not think any of us are smart enough to pick and choose from all sorts of available options and roll lucky 7's into eternity by picking exactly what is needed.
It's both a realm and also a state of being which has been self imposed accordingly by our choices. A realm because the negative must be separate from the growth of the positive. A state because true hell is the adverse path of the heart.
I believe that if God loses a single solitary sheep...then, as a shephard, he sucks...he isn't all powerful. His omnipotence is lost. Besides...he made us so...RIGHT? Look deeper and the illusion begins to waver, a face becomes apparent, staring intently at this "game" this "stage", and all the players involved.
Well, I respectfully disagree. A shepherd won't use permanent fences for his sheep. They have agency of freedom to choose. Freedom to choose is absolutely essential to our eternal progression and expansion. The loss of any one of us is a sign that the Plan works and that we are choosing our paths.
I believe we live our hell on earth it can be heaven or hell, but its what you make it..
That's not hell! Hell is a spiritual state of total and unendurable pain.
When if you think that's hell.... if your not a christian, then you just wait!lol lol lol lol
Nooooo....... Noooooo........ Noooooooo..........
It's not that bad at all! IT'S MUCH WORSE! And it's in a spiritual place.
Can I check behind another door, something more spiritual feeling, less screaming
Do not be foooled by the picture of the friendly fuzzy puppy in the avatar of this user....
That's not funny. Nobody should laugh at the thought of someone going to hell. I'm not referring to you hear in my next example, but some Christians are going to be shocked that God will reject them despite the fact they were Christian. Someone cannot go to hell for ignorance, like an atheist. God is the only judge and that is why I don't worry about anyone's soul because God is the most fair and compassionate being ever to have existed.
I know thousands of Christians are going to be going to hell, because they thought they just had to be baptized or just become a Christan. It is a serious bizz.
Wow. That's a hard interpretation. I assume you consider yourself one of the lucky ones that won't be headed to hell?
mediawizard Welcome to the forum
Only thousands of Christian will go to hell? You are far too kind, maybe when the christian rethink and cancel hell, then they can rethink their own over obedience to the bible
outer darkness is what is described when speaking of christians who do not meet the grade. It is different than the lake of fire. Weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth is associated with it.
Yes Christianity is no joking matter. It is very serious, this is why many people do whatever they can to avoid knowing of it, and being persuaded by it. Its commitment to the max or near max, yet the ways of a loving father make is so very easy to attain, yet some may not have enough oil in their lamps, which teaches of a lackadaisical approach even after salvation, which is spoken of as a "lesser reward".
I thought you were going to try being an agnostic for a wail. Dose the fear of hell keep drawing you back into the fight club?
You can't be an agnostic once you know. That contradicts the word. If I knew that God threatened me with hell if I did not worship Him, I'd tell Him to get lost. Perfect love casts out all fear and I adore Christ.
“Jesus talked more about hell than about heaven,” in the total number of verses devoted to the subject,
If you are christian agnostic , it may mean you are half way there anyways. We will never know the correct answer for the group that goes to heaven in the end. Maybe I will win, with the right answer, :Everyone is god:
I am not a Christian agnostic! Where's you get that idea from? There is no such thing as a Christian agnostic. An agnostic doesn't believe one can know if there is a God or not. I know Jesus is the son of God.
Everyone is God...lol. That's why the world is in such a mess.
You said earlier you may try agnostic, We are already predominately Religious World mess. Then you may agree that :My God is better than your God system: is not working.
Give equal love and understanding a chance, treat everyone and everything as God.
Give peace a chance
No, I said that if I didn't know the Holy Spirit and saw the behaviour of Christians, then I would become an agnostic. Go back and have a look.
You're a New Ager, right? The very people who are in power in this world and commit terrible acts of evil believe that they will become God. In fact, that may be very much the point of the Hadron Collider: to create a new consciousness.
I'm busy writing a hub about it.
Should be an interesting fairy tale as you mix up your religious beliefs with experiments being conducted of which you probably know nothing about.
So, which one of the half-dozen experiments are you referring and what do they have to do with creating a new consciousness?
My uncle is a New Ager and he says that consciousness is a result of the Big Bang. If the Hadron Collider replicates the Big Bang, does it mean a new consciousness will begin? People think that 2012 represents the dawn of a new consciousness. As you may know, the Higgs boon particle is considered the "God Particle". I think this experiment may be an attempt to make people become Gods. People really do believe they can become God.
The Big Bang: Solid Theory, is the most widely accepted scientific model of cosmology. .Yet Mysteries remain"scientifically to be proven of the origin of life. Still the Big Bang" theory hold the most logical reasons,
Governments will fund the evolution theory in school because to fund just one religion origin of magic theory as one world order. Will cause more fantasy wars among many Religions than you can shake ALL the sticks and stones at..
Nice judgment before the facts are in.
Its interesting that you want to criticize everything that is typed around here and throw insults around to bully people but i do not think hub pages was created to be your own personal venting board.
Speaking of throwing insults and criticizing everything that is typed around here, it's so nice to have you back after your "time out" from insulting Earnest after his passing. I wrote a thread about it in order to give you a chance to apologize but I see it has been closed to reply.
It is obvious you didn't use that time out to your advantage or to ours.
Name one person, I have harmed on this forum, or in my entire life. All I have claimed is I do not understand religion or even atheist for that matter.
I would have to belong to some kind of group, in order to harm others OR break my own two rules and when have I done that?
Do not harm.
Please give me any insult that is true, and maybe I may learn something from you.
I believe hell is in your head. You get hell out of your head, and suddenly anyplace can be much more heavenly.
My live is only like a piece of heaven. Life is lovely with the Lord in it and can't get any better!
Prove it. I already proved it exists, look at my other posts up at the top.
No one can prove anything indefinitely...the best we can do is "prove" something for ourselves.
You got it wrong- I meant hell is formed when one loses Truth. Hell exists. It comes when one starts lying.
Prove to us you went to hell and came back in order to prove to us hell exist.
Satan introduces Jesus to hell and the folk in hell hate Jesus. Jesus tries to convince everybody that he’s suffering more than them. Would you tried to convince the folks in hell you are suffering more them, here on earth, all because God love you.
To be saved, a person must become guilty before God, and believe on Jesus Christ Bible makes it clear that there is only one way to heaven,meaning most people will go to hell.
To feel guilty my whole life, would be hell on earth for me.
No I do not believe in Hell. I believe that we all go to Heaven eventually. No proof just my belief.
There are actually quite a few people who have died and have claimed to have gone to heaven or hell. If you study the accounts, there are lot of similarities in the testimonies. I recently wrote a Hub about reasons why people believe in God and my last reason was because of those who have died and come back to life...at the end of the Hub I included links to videos where people tell of their journey. I think that many's testimonies are quite compelling--and not just their testimonies--but how their lives radically changed afterwards. I think in just about every story I've heard, the person who went to hell and came back has made it their life mission to tell others that it is a real place and to give warning. I'm sure youtube has tons of videos. Of course not all are likely to be legitimate, but I believe that many are!
Plenty of people have had a near dead experience and many other people thought they were dead at first. Yet they raised up with a second breath.
If one of them was partly decomposed and came back to life like a zombie and then they completely healed, I might start to think it is possible. People in trauma hospitals or mental hospital will think of all of kinds of very strange things as real wail on your heavy drugs.
Bible claims Jesus alone could raise the dead not be held back by death in the grave. Only person to be born of a virgin. Muslim believe the death of the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the apostle of God'. The Romans did not kill him, nor did they crucify him and majority of Muslims believe this theory.
I don't agree that anyone has come back from the spirit world to tell the story of the after life.
Sometimes people are considered clinically dead, which is different to being dead in a coffin. My mother died when her heart stopped but could be revived. It think when you get to the "other side", you cannot return. Sometimes death is instant, other times it is a process being earth and the after-life.
Sure, and you'll find those accounts to be from religious believers whose accounts of heaven and hell are strangely and coincidentally similar to the beliefs in heaven and hell they were taught to beleive.
The ones I'm interested in are the ones atheists talk about:
I saw that. Whitaker says that he was lying on his "death bed" and said he needed to be saved by Jesus and that he believed heaven and hell were real. Where is the atheist in this video?
Sorry, I was ambiguous. I meant to say that I am interested in the videos with atheists having experienced hell, like Whitaker, not that there was any discussion by other atheists.
Whoever claims to experience hell is lying, delusional or has mental issues, Whitaker included.
How would you know for a fact if he was lying? You aren't him. You don't know what he went through. He makes a very pertinent remark in his story. But what IF hell was real? He believed in reason and the universe and had no other reason to deviate from that belief.
Ask yourself: What IF? I am telling you right now that place exists and it is a spiritual thing like Whitaker described. The one thing you never can claim is that you were never told it didn't exist. You can either take this to heart and pursue a personal journey for the truth or you can troll these forums forever like a soul in purgatory, trying to convince yourself it's all goobldigook. Do something constructive with your time. Is this doing yourself any good belittling other people? Does it make you feel good?
I believe in the sharing of opinions, belief and facts in a respectful manner, which means allowing one to speak without shouting them down or laughing at them every second sentence.
Get your priorities right.
And, what if even 50% of all the other religions that spouted some sort of reward/punishment system for their followers were real, we would all still be awaiting our eternal fates as those gods decide whose heaven or hell we reside.
What if Trolls, Orcs and Middle Earth were real? Ask yourself: What IF?
And, I can see no one single reason not to believe you.
As usual, the personal insults, right on time. I really don't need to convince myself it's all gobbledegook, you are doing a splendid job of that already.
I am not shouting you down, don't make up accusations.
If you don't want me to laugh, don't say things that are funny.
Okay, I could pretend the world is a magical place in which gods, demons and aliens ruled our lives from behind the curtain of invisibility and we are but automatons being manipulated by them.
Then, I'll write a bunch of hubs and posts about it, sharing my pretend world with everyone else.
Hypothetically, if the other religions are true, so be it. It cannot be so, however, as Jesus is the son of God.
I did not pettily personally insult you. I don't do pettiness. I'm giving you constructive criticism. You aren't doing yourself any good. Don't you think you are wasting your time here? I don't understand why you are here, actually.
For example, if this hub was about Muslims saying Allah is God, I'm not going to say it's fairy tales. I will give a constructive rebuttal. You are not.
Sigh. We are going around and around in circles. It's pretty tiresome. Let's more on, k? You don't have to address me.
don't waste your time. There's a dead end at the end of that road and a troubled man sits atop the wall. Just ignore him.
Nice defending sis.
Its all for God
A Troubled Man
Very interesting that you are so quick to judge someone else's experiences. How would you know?
There are also accounts from people with no religious beliefs--from people with no training or grid for "religion" or God. I firmly believe that some people are open to searching for truth, and others only search for that which builds the case for their own beleifs. It takes faith to believe in heaven/hell/God and it take faith not to believe in heaven/hell/God. You make room for what you focus on. I once had a friend who was a very passionate Atheist. I said to him, "If you are so sure that what you believe is right, then you have nothing to fear by looking at all the alternatives and searching out all of the evidence." Up until this point he only tried to convince me of why he thought God was not real. His worldview was quite narrow, however, and he'd never actually dug very deep in a broad sense to really consider evidence. He only paid attention to things that built his case and ignored things that he couldn't explain. After two years of searching (as a lawyer would gather evidence for a court trail) he was convinced that it is possible that God may exist. He stated that he did find compelling evidence and that he could not validly disprove God's existence. But even this did not change his mind. He had an encounter with God--and he was radically transformed. He knew beyond a shadow of a doubt in God's realness after this encounter--not because he had found the "best answer" but because he actually found God. Why am I saying all this? Because as interesting as it can be for people to state their opinions, etc. in these forums or through articles, conversation, debates, etc., it can sometimes be quite pointless if a person is not truly searching for truth. If people want to know if God really exists--if Jesus is God--if the Bible is God's Word and if so, that would mean in the reality of Heaven and Hell--if people want to know these things--then in addition to searching out evidence (which I do support) I encourage people to search out God, Himself. Kind of a "God, if you are real, show me and teach me truth" kind of prayer. A person with a heart that really seeks truth will find it if they keep seeking.
I seriously doubt that.
And, then there are those of us who learn about reality and the world around us rather than building a faith based fantasy with myths and superstitions.
The former is true while the latter is false.
Sorry, but I don't swallow that tall tale.
You are not searching for truth, that is a fact. You follow a religion that has brainwashed you into believing it is the one and only truth. That is the epitome of a narrow worldview.
Considering there are many religions all spouting the same nonsense as your religion, that their God is the one and only God and we should all seek out those Gods, your encouragement completely ignores those facts.
Religion and atheists way of thinking is too extreme for me, yet to incorporate the upsides of both dose help fine my middle grounds. The worst downside of both I either tolerate it or ignore it.
Don't worry, Religion will shrink a lot in 20 years and be more replace by the spiritual age age. Then atheists may double to a whole 6% of the world's population by method of reason, for absences of reason is evil
You are partially right, Castlepaloma. The Abrahamic religions will be abolished in favour of a new spiritual age. There's no room for atheism, though. You have to worship Lucifer under the New World Order.
No, the new world order belongs to the Christians and their hell concept, let them fight each other to the death of their religion, Most people will govern themselves better than the our Government dose today. The new spiritual mixed bag will be able to share and bare the souls freely, it's all in a vision I had about the spiritual age. Aready most people I meet tell me they spiritual rather than religious.
What on earth? What gave you the idea that the New World Order belongs to Christians? World leaders around the world are talking about it.
For conspiracy theories about world government, USA fought the Germany because they want own the world. The U.S. financial woes lead to new world order? The Gulf crisis was seen as a reminder that the U.S. must continue to lead, and that military strength as it does matter,
Like all human abuses and their plans hits the fan, it will be the 80%consciousness of of the people, who are the true world leaders. As it has been through out human history, and they will end up changing things for the better.
If indeed religion shrinks in 20 years as you say; then you will see governments taking over peoples' lives in the way the Bible predicts. You will be in the tribulation and will be given a choice. Will you accept a world religion that will lead you to hell or will you die for Jesus?
Going by the New and Improved product- NT
If we continue to live by biblical time hardships and their low consciousness lifestyle. Our human race would not evolve for the better, so it must move forward. IT’s the consciousness of the people not the popularity of the Government vote who are the true leaders throughout world history. I'm more optimistic about our human race than most people and living in the pass is not better than living for today, by living for today improves our future.
Humans are made from dust and humans will perish in the fire.
Spirits are made from fire and spirits exist in the fire.
Hell is only reserved for Satan and the Evil Spirits to live in forevermore. The unbelievers perish at the end of the Third Woe.
I don't care how many of you believe in this bs, but I just wish you would corral the insanity within your own heads. I just left the cancer ward at the hospital. Some insensitive and perverted Christian had left a pamphlet in the waiting room. A cartoon pamphlet a child would pick up. Detailing the fires of hell in living color. What sick, demented and pathetic *ssh*le would do that in a place where people are grieving? My opinion of Christianity has hit a new low.
Hell is the most worst concept man has ever invented
A pamphlet a child would pick up... way to sugar the bowl lol.
Its interesting that you felt you had to manipulate ill feelings by exploiting the child factor, when in fact you do not know what would happen. There is of course no room for an opinion that some adult picked it up and his life was changed...
My opinion of your honest assessments have hit a new low.
Since I know how hopelessly clueless you are on the subject, I think your statement is hilarious.
I won't tell you how to live and ....
You don't tell me how to fear God and repent from hell
Why? because God love you
That apparent insensitivity is an attempt to show the necessity of thinking about an afterlife. I apologize that some of us make those types of mistakes. This is why so many call us hypocrites. We are sinners. We make mistakes. But we know there is an afterlife. We do not want anyone to go to hell. We understand we were headed there ourselves.
Instead of being upset, try understanding. Ask those persons who left the phamplet. Be open to a discussion. You might come to an understanding.
Unfortunately there are those who are misguided Christians. You have to make that distinction.
God is love and does not want any of us to go there.
I think if God didn't want any of us to go there:
1) He would not have created Lucifer who became Satan
2) Instead of causing Satan to be banished in a horrid place of eternal punishment, He could have erased him from existence, since He wrote him into it.
3) He would not have put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil into the Garden until we were ready to eat from it, instead of playing a "game" to see if we would disobey Him or not.
No I'm dead I guess. Right after I challanged ol Beelsabub above, a black hole opened up in the floor by my computer. Three black things came out and dragged me down the hole and put me in this dingy room. It must be a reception center or something like that. I can hear screaming outside and it's pretty hot here too. Hey, it can't all be bad, there's a really "hot" blond sitting right across from me. I wonder if they have co-ed dorms here...
Gees...OF COURSE I'M STILL ALIVE...
stay away from the hot blonde, sounds like it could be a Jinn
Is hell real? The bottom line is yes it is real. It all boils down to this...
Jesus was a real person who can be verified by history that he really existed. The only disagreements are with who He claimed to be. Jesus claimed to be more than a man, so much so, that the religious leaders of his day perceived Him as a threat to their established religion, and eventually they killed Him.
Jesus didn't claim to be a man. He didn't claim to be a prophet. He claimed to be God. One such occasion was with a confrontation of the Pharisees where He explicitly stated He was God in no uncertain terms. Below is the bible verse with the original OT scripture it refers to.
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Joh 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Now the point is this...if Jesus was just a man with delusions of grandeur, then, to allow himself to be nailed to a wooden cross believing His own lies, makes him insane, by anyone's standards.
If however, He was exactly who He claimed to be, then, that makes Him God and sovereign lord over everything in the universe and beyond. He claimed that His kingdom was not of this world! Moreover, Jesus talked more about hell during His ministry on earth than he did about heaven. He warned it was a place to avoid at all costs. There is no middle ground to be had here...either you believe that Jesus was who he said he was, in which case you have to believe what He said, or you don't. It's that simple. You can theologian-ize it all you want but there is only one truth and the truth will still exist, regardless of whether a person wants to believe it or not.
There are also some people who believe the scriptures were made up, and that the writers of the bible conspired in some way to make Jesus out to be God, and moreover, some people go as far as saying that Jesus Himself conspired with His disciples to fulfil the prophecies about Him that were written in the Torah(OT). There are a few problems with that theory, in that, they simply don't add up. I'm sure they make great documentaries and sell lots of books for their authors but, sadly for them, are fundamentally flawed.
Firstly, if you know anything about the bible, you will know that the three gospels differ in their accounts of Jesus life. This is exactly what you would expect from independent eye-witness accounts, who concentrate on different aspects of the same story. Differing accounts are not what you would expect from someone who had conspired to make the whole thing up.
Secondly, there are many things that were simply out of the hands of Jesus or His disciples, one such example being His treatment in the hands of the Roman authorities and the type of death that He would die...oddly enough, predicted by the OT Prophets centuries before His birth.
In addition, women's testimony was not given credence in a Jewish court of law, such was the Jewish culture at the time. It's ironic then, that the first people to witness the resurrection of Jesus were women...a bit odd for someone/His disciples to make up, wouldn't you think? If you were going to make up a convincing story, then, you would hardly use women to verify what you wanted people to buy into.
No! The gospels are real. Jesus is real and moreover He is exactly who He said He was and therefore, Hell is real because Jesus said it was. One day, regardless of what we believe, we are all going to stand before Him in Judgement and we are going to know for sure.
I would be the first to agree that the concept of Hell is a harsh one and it took me months to finally accept the reality of it. But outside of Gods kingdom, the only place you can go is Hell. Nothing corrupt or tainted can ever into Gods Kingdom and outside of that there is only Hell.
The bible states that there are many levels of hell and one such place is outer darkness. The bible also states that we see through the glass darkly and we don't know everything there is to know. The sooner we can accept that the better!
Lots of logic and common sence here. However, you seem to refer to god as a viable entity. There goes the logic and common sence. No one on this planet knows a damn thing about any diety that they can show even a little bit of proof about.
You also state that there is nothing else between heaven or hell. How do you know that? Do you really know if either exists?
Your on the right track but I would suggest this word group to be added to your lexicon, "I don't know".
Now that's the real truth about 99.9% of all our religious questions.
The fact is, that there is more than enough proof of Gods existence, for someone who is searching with an open mind, an open heart and is prepared to leave their pre-conceived ideas on religion and Christianity, at the proverbial door.
I can show you a healing and you will say that its psycho-schematic, in that, the person willed their self better. I can show you someone being raised from the dead and you will no doubt say that the person wasn't really dead and were just in a comatose state, thus denying, that any real miracle took place.
No matter what the situation that presents itself, someone with a hatred for the concept of God, will always find an alternative explanation to rationalize any and every given scenario or miracle away. I'm sure that if Jesus Christ came back tomorrow with a legion of angels, there would be plenty of people who would put it down to an alien invasion, rather than admit it was the return of Jesus and that God really exists.
It is often said that that seeing is believing? Don't believe a word of it! The trouble is not with our eyes but our hearts. We, as in the vast majority of human species, hate the idea of God and being held accountable to Him for our deeds and actions. I should know I am/was that person before I became a believer.
It's ironic that in science you can have any hypothesis you want to explain away a set of data, as long as its not God. The irony is that it's not very scientific to dismiss a whole hypothesis just because you don't agree with it. Yet that is exactly what science does...despite the fact that two of our greatest scientists, Newton and Einstein both believed in the existence of God and that they were doing nothing more than discovering the laws that were set in motion by the creator.
You may say that, its only because you cannot prove God that that hypothesis is not an option. Yes but by the same token, you cannot disprove God either...so where does that leave science? If God exists (and He does), then, by not including that hypothesis, you are being unscientific. In actual fact, there are a lot of things that science and the bible do agree on:
1) Both agree that the universe had a beginning - although they disagree about how that beginning happened.
2) Both agree that the universe is expanding. The bible talks about He who stretches out the heavens. Time after time you will see that phrase in the bible.
3) Earth floating in space. The bible says that 'He who hangs the earth upon nothing'.
4) Round earth. Its ironic that just a few hundred years ago in Christopher Columbus's time, they thought that the earth was flat. If they had looked in the bible and taken it seriously, they would have known that the earth was round. The bible speaks about 'He who sits upon the circle of the earth.' Interestingly, this was over 150 years before Aristotle who is credited in the History books for suggesting a round earth.
The bottom line? Proof is only as good as the person willing to accept it and is not set in stone and definitive like most people seem to think, especially the armchair scientist brigade, who think that by aligning themselves with certain aspects of science that they are being free thinkers and objective - when the opposite is true.
"You also state that there is nothing else between heaven or hell. How do you know that? Do you really know if either exists?"
Well, I believe that Jesus Christ was exactly who He said He was and therefore, I not only believe what is written in the four gospels, but also the entire bible...since Jesus authenticated the Torah during his ministry on earth. It really is that simple! In fact, if you look, you will realize that Jesus Christ is on virtually every page of the OT.
Anyone who believes the bible agrees that jesus is amazing.
Jesus even said "behold the volume of the book is written of me".
No other spokesperson for God has ever claimed this to be true. This alone puts Jesus in a special category above all others. Couple that with other saying like "I am the vine and there is no way to God but through me" and their is no excuse. We can also take notice that all else He says is true too.
Very well put. God Bless and take care.
Brilliant logic you have there. ...verified by history... LOL!
Maybe he was insane. Or maybe being crucified was inevitable and it didn't matter what he did.
Or maybe, just maybe, He was telling the truth?
There is no evidence that shows jesus as insane. If we look to the gospels we see that Jesus was in control of every situation. He knew where to go and when, he knew how to answer the people and speak to authorities. He had a respect of people, something that people who are insane do not get. Jesus showed no signs of panic, disorder and other psychological stuff.
Insanity is not an option at all
Getting nailed to a cross, is not my idea of the greatest gift ever from God. Yet I can imagine Jesus was alright, If he could only see all the wrong translations written about him on earth today
How do you drive a preacher MAD, put him in a round World and then tell him to preach in a corner
Getting nailed to the cross was not His idea of fun either and it was not exactly the point, so to speak. If you can understand the reasons why he was killed on the cross then it will make much better sense to you.
No better love can anyone have than that he will lay down his life for his friends - in jesus case - even those who hate him.
Out of a100 billion people who have ever live and have died on earth, I'm sure there has been millions of other who have lay down their lives for others.
Why not one of them?
No, by the science community (not christian science) there has been a 100 billion who ever have died on this planet. You don't think any one else beside Jesus gave up their life to save another person or a family member, or a pack, tribe, another religion , gangs of New York or what ever you want to call it?
I might give up my life to save my daughter life from a murderer if their was no other way to save her.Yet I can't imagine running out of idea's to harm anyone, perhap for the rest of my entire life also, can a group of Christian do that?
I believe in another planet with life as do scientists and NASA. Do they go to H... or H.....? I think not BUT I do believe in good/bad spirits or good/bad forces so it is always a discussion.
I see hell much like that of Jacob's ladder. Hell is a personal place where one goes to have the ego stripped away. It is not likely a bad thing, just another stop on the way to where we are going next. The Budhist wheel of life describes hell as a place where one hungers for life and so from there makes a conscious effort to live again.
Of course if the Christian version is true, I'd go to hell for the company or heaven for the scenary. If it is so that all the cool people like Budha or sacrates are in hell, that is where you will find me.
Wow! Lots of interest on this one. That's good but also very damaging if you believe totally unprovable fairy tales.
If you wish the truth, which most of you don't, read my hub on the Devil and hell. It's and excerpt from my Book "up One Level".
If you can disprove anything said there, I would love to hear from you.
No poppycock, 2000 year old scriptures please. Just the truth, logic, common sense, and provable fact.
That's not much to ask is it?
http://craig-suits.hubpages.com/hub/THE … l-The-Book
I like it. We are all enlightened and that is the problem. We find out a truth and we want to share and when we become pleased with ourselve's, we forget the meaning of the thought.
Anyhow, I agree with sleeping and brainwashed part. People do not want to hear the truth, because they think they already have the answers. The reallity is, if one wants answers, they should talk to someone aged sixty or older. They have lived among generations of observers and sheep. Now that the observers are more abundant, the religious side is getting uncomfortable. And so it is on the atheist side.
Have you read the description of Hell?
Even joking, there is no way on Gods green earth, would I ever say I can be found in hell.
Yes. Heaven and Hell are states of mind. Neither are necessarily good or bad places to be. Being in either state of mind or the other can promote creativity. Lessons can be learned from being in both states of mind.
Learn to travel between each freely as needed.
I like that .......and do it gracefully, not so extremely
You guys are all missing the point. Believe what ever you wish, but the moment you organize, sooner or later you'll be shooting at other organizations like it's been since day one.
Up to now, you believers have managed to kill billions of our children defending your damn fairy tales but there was no such thing as deadly pathogens and nuclear weapons that could wipe out all of humanity in a matter of days. There is now oh blind ones. Believe what ever you wish but you'd better bring an end to your organizations right now while you still have the chance.
For a lousy 3 bucks you can get my book "Up One Level" on Googles E-book store. Read it, learn what has happened, what is going to happen, and what YOU must do to prevent the inevitible.
Worldly concerned citizen
Are you taking just about Religion or all people with an imagination who enjoy some fantasy, yet are spiritual sided?
I would think that any person who claims to be informed about the atrocities that happen around the world would realize that it is humanistic, natural concerns birthed from the world they live in that drive them to cause the horrors they commit. I am sure that dropping the A bomb on hiroshima and nagasaki was a combination of scientific experimentation (because you always do an experiment twice to compare data) and politics (that in ending japans involvement in WW2)
If government leaders allowed religion to overwhelm their populations these leaders know that all too soon they would then be compelled by that same christian population to adhere to religious tenets - truths and Gods will - which is something that the political forum does not abide well with. So creating diversions and chaos among the religiously inclined is helpful to the matters that be in controlling the world.
I don't know if I believe in heaven or hell. Having read a lot about near death experiences, there are some people who describe going to hell when they have such an experience. Often this happens to people who attempt suicide and return to tell the tale. Whether this is real evidence of a hell or simply a reflection of the state of mind of the person when they attempted suicide, I cannot decide. I tend to believe near death experiences take place in the brain, however, the fact that such experiences are so similar for the many thousands of people who have had them does make me wonder.
Eurika! Finally an honest, straight thinking person. You are right, you don't know the truth and neither does anyone else. They just like to believe they do. I was starting to feel a little bit lonley there Muldania.
My co-author, Lilith Eden was actually killed in a car accident 5 years ago and came back. Look up "I died on (the date) on her Hub pages and read about her experiences of actually being dead and then coming back. It's suprising what she remembers.
I looked it up for you...
http://lilitheden.hubpages.com/hub/I-di … ch-15-2005
Doesn't logic speak to the truth? The truth isn't far. In fact, it's right next to you...even closer. Here is one immutable truth. Everything is a manifestation of energy...including consciousness. This is the true meaning of E=MC2, and it is the true meaning of God. All you need do is understand and accept it.
Hell is where your heart and mind dwell. Heaven is also where your heart and mind dwell. Evil is of man...though we would blame snakes and devils. That darkness exists in all of us...a gift from the savages we once were. The light also exists in all of us...it is what we can rise to be
Um, has anyone noticed the fact that Adam and Eve were going to eventually sin?
They were apparently created in His "image" whatever that means, but they were given the ability to choose whether to listen to Him or not (the whole "God doesn't want robots" argument). Creating them in such a manner gives an IMMEDIATE 50/50 probability that they will either obey or disobey.
Knowing this, He still lets Satan roam free as the Serpent, knowing what said Serpent would plan, being omniscient and all, and allowing him to feed lies to Eve, who wasn't very smart or moral for someone created in the "image" of God. And then instead of simply wiping them out, which He almost does completely in the not so distant future (the flood), he decides to then punish the billions and trillions of people who come down the line for their transgressions? I mean, really? (Of course, unless they accept His "Son," which Jesus' sacrifice would've been unnecessary if the "FAther" hadn't created Lucifer or the Tree or people with the ability to make a wrong choice in the first place) But, for God's own selfish need of praise and adoration, we were created, with the ability to choose, so he could feel special, and given the sh*t end of the stick just because that's how it is and we're supposed to accept the fact that life is unfair and this religion is our only option?
Is this is the God of "love?" Thanks, but no thanks. I believe in the possibility of supernatural things, or at least things that we don't understand yet about ourselves and this Universe. But, I'm pretty sure the God of the Bible, if there is a "god," ain't it.
And that Hell is an awful place that I don't believe in, and a "loving God" wouldn't create.
Then you are deceiving yourself and are unable to come to the realization that there is something greater than you whose designs we do not understand and those works are for the good of all.
For the good of all, or the good of those who do what He wants? BIG difference. I'd say Hell isn't good for anybody.
True, hell is not good for anyone, but God has given us free will. We are not made to be robots; we were made so that we might, through Jesus, become sons and daughters of God.
Hell is a choice, your choice.
So you dont believe that god sends people to hell for not believing in him?
No. They choose it. Since He has given us free will - we choose wheather to accept His forgiveness through Jesus or not. The Bible says it does not give Him ANY PLEASURE to destroy the wicked. Ezekiel 18:32
Sin separates us from God. You see this in the story of Lazarus and the rich man concerning the "great gulf." You see this when Jesus took our sins upon Himself and He cried out to God, "Why have you forgotten me?"
This is His world, universe. There are certain rules that must exsist for ultimate harmony. He is being patient with His creation, but He will cut His work short. Romans 9:28
Since we cannot do what Jesus did and follow those rules we would be doomed to die. It is our acceptance of Jesus. To believe that He is the Son of God. That He came in the flesh and was raised in a glorified body. The same kind of body we will receive if we, through Him, crucify our sinful natures and make that public confession that we believe He is the Son of God. He did not sin so we need His perfect Spirit and sacrifice to cleanse and save us.
So, the love condition for Yahweh is for you to believe in him with all your heart.
Too bad for most people who do not believe in Yahweh, that is hell of a way to treat non believers or other kind of Religion who love their God most
To deny the very being that gives you life is like denying you need air to live. It isn't going to happen.
LOL! And yet, we can breathe just fine.
Yahweh forgot to sent memo's to most people on earth
You breathe because He is that breath. You continue to breathe because He is being patient with you in order that you might come to the knowledge of the truth. He is being extremely patient with us all.
Or he will stomp us out like a bug and torture us forever,
Heaven is now, hell is living in the past or seeking a future illusion.
Reflecting pass and future can be sweat yet living there all the time can be hell
The illusions of them create hell or suffering. If I marry a girl I have only known for a short time and picture white picket fences and a beautiful house, then I am subjecting myself to a possibillity of a hell in the future. This a rough example, but it is just one of many possible outcomes, none of which exist.
I married such a girl, your right, it was hell
There is a heaven now, but it isn't on earth, i.e., not in the context I believe your comment was written. Hell is the place God made for Satan and his angels, which is now also filled with the souls of people...unfortunately. And even though we can feel at times we're in hell on earth, nothing that's happening here could ever compare to what's taking place there, even right now.
Imagine after 3 months of meeting someone, then you married them. Then after a few months you find out she is a green card grabbing, mentality ill con artist who's aim is to destroy you.
Worst downside of hell on earth ever, extremly happy I got rid of her
The heavenly up side is an obliquity beautiful and wonderful daughter
I understand fully that there may be something bigger out there, Simply that the Christian God most certainly isn't it, and to say that He i"works for the good of all" is to deceive your own self, sir.
He says in order to be rich - you must become poor. If you want to be a ruler - you must be a servant. Telling you that I am not deceived would do you or this conversation very little good. What I know to be true is not easy to convey to those who do not believe. The reason for this, the Bible says, is because these things are spiritually discerned.
This is what I can do. There IS an afterlife. He IS our life. Whenever we sin we take away from that life. Jesus is the only way that life can be replenished.
Too many think the afterlife is about having all these rewards that are worldly in nature. That could not be farther from the truth. What Jesus is offering you is this: Life and peace. All other "gifts" are perks. Eternal Life and Peace from our source, our creator is what gift we need to focus on now.
I am a former Christian. I'll be sharing a hub about my experiences soon enough. I know well of the peace and life you speak of. My world is quite different these days. I understand that you mean well, and that you think that I can't understand what you're saying, but your very words in some form or fashion left my own mouth, once upon a time. However, after some interesting events, I am no longer convinced, and there are certain things that I simply can't change my mind about. I do miss the fluffy side of Christianity, but, my "faith" is long gone in it and in the God there in.
You're going to have to demonstrate that is true if you are going to accuse him of deceiving himself since deceipt is reliant on knowledge of the truth.
I hope YOU are not being deceiptful. That would be hypocritical if you were.
"You're going to have to demonstrate that is true if you are going to accuse him of deceiving himself since deceipt is reliant on knowledge of the truth."
Actually, Jesus was a hippy, he told me that I was deceiving myself, first. He is also going to have to demonstrate that what he said is "true" by your argument.
And being deceived and *deceitful are two different ball games.
Also, I stand fully on what I said. Based on the basics of the Bible and how "everything got started," "the good of all" is not the God of the Bible's worries.
1) Creating the angel that would be part of the cause of the fall of all humanity.
2) Creating a place of everlasting punishment, instead of erasing this angel-become-Devil out of existence. MUCH easier, if He can simply write you, and anything else, into existence.
3) Creating people with the option to make a decision for HIs own selfish sake of having more beings to worship Him that aren't robot like. (The angels had "free will" if Satan was able to turn himself, and a 1/3rd of the other ones against God)
I'd rather be a robot then have the option of going to a place of eternal torment... thanks.
4) Not destroying the first 2 people and starting over right then, instead of punishing them and the trillions of people after them...
Etc, etc, etc.
Where's "the good of all there?" It's all for the good of Himself, and the good little boys and girls who do what He says... That is all.
Hell is not knowing you are in a hell of your own making.
There is no heaven or hell. It is just a state of mind where people can hang onto when others do something. When they do something it is always heaven :-P. When others do it.. You say, "What the hell are you doing?? "
I hope there isn't a hell. But I fear there is. And that's where .....
Not only do I beleive in it, but by Drinking NyQuil You Can come to Hell too!
I even wrote a hub about the glories of the NyQuil CacoDaemon!
Goddamn Do i have a horrible hangover. Drrank wayyy tooo mcuhhh NyQUuiill!
Luckily it was all just a bad dream... keke
Different religions have kaleidoscopic views on the organization and purpose of Hell. I have been, frankly, deeply influenced by the Ten Courts of Hell from the Chinese mythology. It actually forces you to think twice about sinning. Sinning itself is quite intricate since there are many ways of sinning, and some of the sins are counter-intuitive, e.g. wasting food.
Well, if you believe that that wormholes exist and that you can move from one universe to another by way of them, and if you believe that there are an infinite number of universes, then anything is possible.
In one universe, I´m the creator and in another, I rule hell. I just happen to be stuck in a universe I where I write half-rate Hubs.
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